Historically High - Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Butch Cassidy was born Robert Leroy Parker to a mormon family in Utah. The man who would become The Sundance Kid would first be known as Harry Longabaugh from Pennsylvania. Butch, Sundance, and the rest of the Wild Bunch would make a name for themselves during the death rattle of the outlaw American west. To the public they appeared to be a group of Robin Hood-esque bandits and although they really only stole from the rich, the money didn't always make it to the poor in the traditional sense. On the run constantly and sensing the arms of the government closing around them they had one more play, a daring escape to South America. Join us as we get Historically High on Butch and Sundance.   Thanks for listening and don’t forget to hit subscribe, leave a 5-star rating and write a review. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join us at Patreon.com/HistoricallyHigh and get enrolled for some fun extra content Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Howdy partner? Giddyup. Yippie Kaye? Different era. Not quite, okay. Yeah. We're looking at a time between eras almost. We're looking at the ending of an era.

For some reason, our first real Old West episode, we're starting at the end. But if you've listened to the podcast before, we don't always start at the beginning of things. Yeah. Is this our first kind of foray into like the American, what people are? know is the American Old West. We're going to be talking about them in this episode, but we did a fair amount of Old West, Jesse James talk during the Pinkerton episode. We did Pinkertons. We've done the gold brush. So people are making their way across.

We've done the, did we do the Oregon Trail? We talked about that during something, but I don't know if we officially did the Oregon Trail yet. We did. Lewis and Clark, yeah. Well, we, I don't know if we've done that. But, yeah, this is, this feels like the the last gasp of like the the cowboy outlaw because this would then go on to be replaced by more like city outlaws where you start to get into like gangsters and stuff like that but this was this was tailor made to be made into a movie it already was 1969 Robert rare or redford

Paul Newman both in their primes seats had to get wet women watching this movie um but these guys did train robberies. These guys did bank robberies. They robbed from corporate. And here's the thing, too, they didn't rob from people. They robbed from corporations. So this is one of those episodes that we get to just, it's low stakes. We just get to root for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid because they're just stealing from assholes. I didn't know. I didn't know that Butch Cassidy was a nonviolent offender. I guess you could say. He does get one under his belt, but it happens in South America. A lot of shit happens in South America. Can't really follow you up. But they were very charismatic. We're going to talk a lot about Sundance coming into this.

Butch Cassidy and Sundance go together like peanut butter and jelly. That's right. But really the only reason that they're known that way is both of them as a duo is because they were both smart enough to get out of the United States before they got killed. And they were smart enough. to take like breaks. Yeah. Like the time frame in which these guys operate for an outlaw,

it's a good chunk of time that these guys are up to that. And it is because they're smart. Not everyone involved with their crew is going to be a genius, but the guy's planning these operations, which is predominantly Butch. They're going to be able to pull these things off with minimal, like collateral damage as far as like innocence. And that's one of the things that he's kind of known for

is being this almost like a Western, Robin Hood, except instead of the steal from the rich and give to the poor, it's steal from the rich. And then through commerce and the brothel system and the gambling places and the clothing stores, then it will get back to the poor. Steal from the rich and buy from the poor? Yeah. And disperse it throughout the merchants in the area. Maybe besides the nonviolence of Butch Cassidy, a surprise that he's horrific with money.

Oh, there's so bad. Yeah, the amount of money that they pull out of these robberies, and then they have to continue to do it's insane. I know. So you could tell that like when they were rolling into town, which also lends to, and again, we're not jumping at too far, but when they start to get some heat on them, like you got to understand if, hey, if someone rolls into town and they just start spending money like crazy, give the local Pinkerton agency or whoever it is in the area that's working with us a call and have us come over and take a look because they were spending. And if the bills that they're handing you look like they've been singed from some sort of a dynamite explosion, maybe don't use those. Maybe spread them out. Also, I don't know how I didn't put this together. So Robert Redford, why am I having such a hard time seeing his name?

Robert Redford plays Sundance. Yeah. Robert Redford created the Sundance Film Festival. Is it in Sundance, Wyoming? And I don't know if it's in Sundance. I thought it was in Park City. It might be. I think the fact that I don't know how.

I never made the connection of his portrayal of the character of Sundance is why he called it the Sundance Film Festival. He wears the shit out of that mustache. Oh my God. How he was, how he's not been in more roles with just a mustache beyond me. Before we get too much further into it, remember, patreon.com slash historically high or the Patreon app. Just search for historically high.

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Keep pumping them in. Keep subscribing. If you're not subscribed, get insubscribe. We broke our streak. The streak ended on an episode that I don't remember which one it was. I've been mentally reminding myself. Who's that a bust of over there? I'm sorry to go off topic.

but you got a new bust on the desk. It's our guy. Socrates? No. Our Conqueror, the man from Carthage. Oh, that's Hannibal? Yep. Hannibal. Barka.

Much smaller than I thought. No, no, no. But that's good because you can have it on the desk. Yeah. When I purchased it, I don't know what eight inches looks like. I'm going to be honest with you. That seems about Ryan. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, from desk to top of the head. All right. Getting back into it. Sorry. Oh, shit. I don't know where we are.

Let's jump in. I'm Professor Chris. Oh, that's Professor Adam. Yes. We reminded it or we remembered it. All right. Let's get into Butch and Sundance. All right.

We can change the board around now. We have one of those workplace incident signs. And it's episode since we last forgot to introduce ourselves. So we'll take that back to zero. We can throw one up there now. instead of zero. I don't know if this is from my upbringing and coming up in the LDS religion and the Mormon faith. Butch Cassidy being a, what would become a Jack Mormon, his term, his words, was very surprising to me.

Also very surprising you have before the Parker family, which is Butch's real last name, gets to America, Mormon Church founded in 1830 by Joe Smith. By 1837, they had Mormon missionaries in England that were bringing people and converting people into the church. Yeah. That's a pretty quick move to go across the pond. You got a whole wealth of people to draw from in the United States.

It feels like there would be a little bit more openness to new religions around here. That's true. depending on how many people you have, because isn't kind of everybody supposed to go on a mission, males, I mean? Yeah, it just feels like that wouldn't have been the first rule out of instituted seven years in. That's true. But I guess if you're- To be able to have that stretch already, that's kind of nuts.

Pretty fast. Robert Leroy Parker, his grandfather, grandmother, we're both in England. Is it weird that I look at that word or that name now and just think, Roy. I don't know. We have a Leroy in our lives, and he's a great guy. We do. But I'm just trying to think, at that time, was it Leroy or Leroy? The French might have been Leroy. Lerol. Yeah. They end up coming over from England after being converted to the Mormon faith. They take the trip along the Mormon Pioneer Trail. This is after Joseph Smith has killed Navu, Illinois, for a litany of things.

Brigham Young would take the rest of the Mormon pioneers down into the valley in Utah. They would begin building their empire, so to speak. Going from there, you have Robert, who was Butch's grandfather, helping them along the trail. It wouldn't be until Maximilian, which was his father's name. and shit who's his mom oh uh and campbell would end up meeting in illinois and campbell gillies Utah as they met in Utah they would go on to get married I believe in 1864 1865 or somewhere around there very weird that all this is happening out west

while the civil war is going on well I mean and people are starting to kind of try to get away from it as well yeah and so I think Max arrived in Salt Lake City in 1856 when he was 12 and immigrated in 1859 when she was 14. And then they did wait a little bit because again, like you said, 1865 in July is when they get married and live near. Not sure if it still exists, but Circleville, Utah. Still exists. Thriving metropolis of about 500 people. Okay, so probably larger at this time almost than it was at that time. And guess what?

They got busy. Butch was first one out of the oven, but there were 12 other kids that followed. He was born April 13th, 1866, as the first of 13. In Beaver, Utah Territory. And just to think about that, you're having 13 kids. You have 12 more kids after him. Yeah, so you could say that Max was in Beaver while in Beaver. Quite a bit.

Quite often. He frequented Beaver. and Veeber. But give or take nine months, there's probably a couple sets of Irish twins in there, but he's 13-ish years old, probably.

He's already into his teen years before his mom quit having children. Oh, he had to be. Like, is that, fuck? I mean, people were built different back then, but the fact that she had 12 kids and was alive

is insane. For number 13? or 13 but to think it had to be over the course of like 20 years you'd have to take some break right at a certain point is it just a water slide

I don't know man she yeah she the first pregnancy took like 18 hours and the last pregnancy took like 45 minutes honey like by kid 10 it just ends up falling out you're like kids here had another one their family worked pretty hard to try to establish themselves outside of Circleville.

And some would say maybe a typical Mormon fashion, you have a dispute that gets settled by a bishop because we're not going to bother with governors or mayors or anything like that. That's because, yeah, you have your own law system technically, your own way of resolving issues, and it's within the communal government of the church. Man, Bishop supposedly thought that Max wasn't nearly

as pious as this other man and ruled in favor of the other man, which kind of swore off Robert and his dad from most church affiliations. His mother was still very devout. They had to kind of strike it out on their own because they would eventually have 13 mouths to feed working in these other areas before their plot of land really started to yield any sort of crops. And along that, you have Robert who is kind of raising his younger brothers and sisters while also striking out

and beginning to work. He ends up working at a ranch separate from the family, I believe right around like 12 or 13. And one day, he's working on this ranch, he must have either torn a hole in his jeans or his

overalls. So he rides into town. When he gets into town the clotheaer or the general store, whatever it was. Habadash. Habadash. They were habitashers, right? It was just, habitashry was just everything, I think. Fabrics, I think. But he shows up and the business is closed.

So, undeterred, he breaks his way into the business. In his defense, it was this isn't like, hey, we live in town. I'm going to ride down 15, 20 minutes. This is, we have a huge area of land. We are far away from town. He had

ridden a long way. He found a way to Jimmy the lock or a window or something like that. He let himself in. He was hungry from the B&E. So he got himself a pie. He got himself some new overalls. He wore a hole in his breeches. He needed to get some new ones.

And then let the guy in I owe you and he says, listen, this is my name. Here's all my information. The next time I come back into town, which I will, because this is the only town within writing distance, I will pay you. But I needed this now. really needed the pie and then I'm out

Lloyd Christmas taught us anything it's that's an IOU that's that's just as good as money I don't understand here's the one part that I don't get because he ends up getting acquitted

like they don't charge him for this because he you can't say it's breaking in or if you leave your name you left your identity technically you still could because it's theft it's not your property it is but he he was going

to pay it. I also think at that time they were like, the guy that owns its name is Tim. He's like, the fuck are you closed him? You're literally the only place in town. You can't hire another employee to work the weekends? You know how far out that guy's ranches that he had to come in from? Oh, he took a pie and some

overalls. So he ends up, but anyway, you had to have money to pay for him, right? Yeah. Why didn't you just leave the money? That's fair. And the note and say this is for overalls? and a pie.

That's fair. I could see the money being left as maybe things are okay. It depends on how much you broke getting into. You also don't, I think, have stuff that has price tags on it maybe. Potentially.

So when you come up there, the guy pulls out the ledger book and says, overalls, this size, goes through and says, this is how much they are. So maybe you don't know what they are, but you're just telling him,

you know, regardless. You might want to leave like a little bit. It's be like, I'll break the difference next time I come into town. I'll be back with the rest of it. Sorry I didn't fold all the overalls. I'm being picky here.

He left all of his information. Yeah. I don't. This is like backing into somebody's car and leaving your information. He was going to make it right. Well, the correct information. I can't wait outside the mall all day. I don't know if you just got here.

He really had no idea. Oh, a mall is a place that used to exist in myth and legend in which many retail shopping stores would be located under once, you know, one roof, and they would have crazy things like food courts and orange Juliuses and things like that. If you've ever seen a gigantic abandoned building, good chance it's a long. The largest roller rink you've ever seen. There was this place called Sears. If that was the extent of Robert's bad doings, he probably wouldn't have gone down in history as Bush Cassidy.

he ends up moving on to a ranch where his mother's working, milking cows. And on this ranch, there is a hand named Mike Cassidy. Mike Cassidy is this local cattle thief all around badass. He ends up teaching the future Butch how to ride and shoot. Supposedly, he could ride circles around a tree and fire off his entire revolver into a three-inch circle. Let's not say thief, because there's a term for this. And we don't get to use it often. A cattle rustler?

Rustler. Yeah. That rustler is a hustler. Yeah. So by the time he's 18, Butch tells his mom, he's like, there's not much for me around here.

Half the women in this town are related to me. Because you guys had to have so many kids. He's like, pay in Utah's low. There's no excitement around here. And for once, I got to be thinking about my future. because he, like you said, the oldest kid there,

every other kid that came after him, it was his job to teach them how to do all the shit around the farm or the ranch. So he decides, yeah, he's going to go and Mike Cass, he kind of takes him under his wing and shows him all the cool shit. He's like, wait, you never shot a gun? He's like, a couple times.

He's like, well, do you want to learn how to like, twirl more around, shoot, and while you're riding, and everything? He's like, fuck yeah, I do. Do you want to learn how to rope stuff? He's like, yes. You want to learn how to steal horses and cows? Yes!

You haven't said one thing yet that hasn't gotten me more excited. Would you like money of your own to spend on stuff? Absolutely. That was exactly what they did. In 1884, Robert and Mike steal some horses. They end up taking them up to Tell You Ride, Colorado, which I heard it ten times listening to stuff. Apparently, it was shorthand for To Hell You Ride. Hell you ride, and then someone just said it really quick.

Tell you ride. Which nowadays doesn't make any sense because I think Tell You Ride, Colorado is a pretty rich part of Colorado. Yeah. Pretty nice part of Colorado. Maybe that and it's fitting. Yeah. Well, in Tell You Right, he met a guy named Matt Warner. They got drunk.

They became fast friends. Warner loved racing horses, and Robert was a hell of a rider. They would clean up on races. They would split winnings. They made just a shitload of money. And kind of the hunt for a better payday. The pair teamed up with the McCarthy brothers a little bit later on in 1889. But kind of this five-year gap is sort of like an exploration for Robert.

He goes up into the Montana territory. He works as a ranch hand up there. He works in Wyoming as a ranch hand at a few different places. And by all accounts, everybody that he worked for loved him. He was very personable, very affable. He worked very hard. And everybody just kind of had this respect. for the future Butch

in a way that is pretty surprising because when you think about outlaws and cowboys, we're going to be drawn a lot of parallels in this between Red Dead Redemption and Butch Cassidy. Because a lot of this stuff is the same way. Depending on how you play Red Dead. Yeah. You're going to have your Dutch character in Butch.

You're going to have the gang is... The Vanderlin gang. And then so who would that make Sundance? Would that be Arthur? Wait, are we talking Red Dead 2? Red Dead 2, I would say, is probably closer. And even in Red Dead 1, I mean, the whole antagonist you're fighting against is the Pinkertons usually. Yeah, both of them, I think.

Yeah. I've only played 2. So it's a setup, the first one, his, Marston's wife gets taken, and he has to go fight her way back. Yeah, is it two a prequel to 1, right? Yeah, in a way. But he was well liked wherever he went. And he would end up eventually coming back down in 1889 to tell you ride. He just needed a better payday.

He liked working on ranchers. He liked working on farms. But he could never strike out and do anything on his own because he didn't have the money for it. Like you were saying, he did try a lot of different things. So I think there was kind of an attempt to go straight. Because at certain points during this, that's kind of what they do. It's like, okay, we've got. a nest egg or we've got some money we can put down on something the longer we're in this

the more likely it is we're going to end up dead or in prison so we need to get a score we need to not blow it on just shit which was hard for them to do in the early stages and then we'll go and we'll buy a ranch because here's where the money's added it'll be in cattle and we know how to do all that kind of stuff when he did come back to while he was in Wyoming he was in rock Springs. That's where he worked like a brief stint as a meat cutter. And so that's where he actually earned the nickname Butch.

So he takes Butch, which not a clever name from a butcher. Not at all. But then at the same time, Cassidy from his friend. But now saying it now, that's such an iconic name, Butch Cassidy. Well, Butch Cassidy sounds like a cowboy.

Robert Parker, he could be a CPA. Yeah. See, you need to kind of of a rough and tumble name and of course he took Cassidy from Mike Cassidy. Well, you could see Robert Lee, Roy, and Parker, and that would be a fucking attorney's office. Yeah, pretty close to that. It sounds a lot more fanciful than

a bitch. They needed a better payday. They were tired of selling dime bags. They wanted to start moving up into pounds, which is a pretty big leap. They would end up teaming up with the McCarty brothers. They had had some business dealings with them before. They had a run in with

some Paiute Indians that didn't go very well. It was actually, I believe they said the first time that Butch saw a man die was one of the Native Americans was shot by one of the McCarty brothers. And it was kind of the first time that Butch realized that just because he had a gun doesn't mean that he ever wanted to use a gun against a human. Yeah, but this life he was going into, this was the reality at some point of it. Yeah. So the McCarty brothers stood watch supposedly how this whole thing goes. goes outside of the Miguel Valley Bank and Telly Ride.

They had been scoping this out, sitting at a bar close to the bank. They watched customers go in and out. They saw one of the two bank tellers, which is insane that there was only two bank tellers at a time. We have to go to lunch. They realized they had a great numerical advantage. I'm assuming the McCarty brothers stood outside to hold the horses. You have Butch and Matt Warner. Matt Warner go inside.

Matt Warner slides the teller a check As the teller looks down to read the check Matt Warner reaches through the bars And grabs his head, pulls his head against the bars Put a revolver against his head And tells me, or tells me give me all your money They don't realize Until pretty far into this

That the vault's open Yeah They don't have to worry about Cleaning out the drawers They can just walk into the vault Make this happen They would end up breaking out between the McCarty brothers and both of them,

they would take off outside or out of tell you ride. Uh, is they're riding away. They end up getting away with $21,000, which even in today's money, that's a pretty good haul from a bank. Yeah. So you're splitting this and I don't know what if,

there's places that these guys end up holding up that become really famous along like what's called the outlaw trail. Now the outlaw trail stretches from Canada all the way down to Mexico. kind of on, I mean, I would say kind of not along the Rockies, but kind of, right? The foot of the Rockies, kind of, on the eastern side. Well, even a little bit on the western side, I guess. But it branches out, like it'll branch out east to west. So there's this known outlaw trail that you can travel between and you can find like these

safe houses or these areas that are safe locations, not houses in the sense of just a place to stay, but there's a place called the hole in the wall. And the hole in the wall gang isn't just Butch Cassidy and a few, the guys, the Warner's and whoever else he's working with. It's an area where people that are kind of pulling jobs around the area or traveling through the area that are criminals kind of have a shared hideout, where it's like a protected canyon. And it's essentially, it's not like an actual cave or anything like that. It was basically just like a naturally fortified pass in the mountains of Wyoming where, like it was really hard like looking at it you couldn't tell if there was a way up it but once you got

close and if you knew about it you could get there so if they're being pursued by like a posse or something like that they could jump up this pass and that was the only way up this mountain for like miles on each side so those guys would have to ride all the way down they wouldn't be able to track them and it was a way for them to escape and then get to like more of a secluded spot some people had cabins there had cattle and all that kind of stuff. And so they're able to, after they do this San Miguel Valley Bank and Telleride, which I think Telleride was like pretty big into mining. So that's why there was that much money in the bank.

Which is probably why it's super rich today. Yeah. They started going to, I think the first place they went to, wasn't the hole in the wall that they went to after this one? I believe they went down to Robbers Bruce, which was South Eastern Utah. $21,000 hall would net about $752,000 in today's money.

If you're splitting $7502,000 between four guys, that's a pretty great hall that you're pulling off. That's what I'm thinking. I just don't know if, like, at the places you end up hiding out, if you have to, like, kick back some money. Yeah. Because there's people that are taking care of those locations.

Well, with as much as Bush was moving, he had a tendency to bury money, which is, unless you're more of a sedentary individual, I figure like, burying money is a pretty bad idea, right? Because you're never going to be able to find it again. I mean, you've got to be, this is a situation where you bury it,

but it has to be close enough to something to where it's like, it's on the property. I just know that it's seven big paces directly from the corner of the barn. And then you just got to hope no one finds it. And I have to be prepared to dig like a 20 by 20 grid pattern to find this.

Correct. This, it feels, you've seen Vegas vacation. Oh, yeah. We're trying to find Eddie's money

that he has all buried everywhere. Yeah. He's got it stashed away like you ban coffee cans and shit like that.

Spam, spam jars in or cans, yeah. So they end up making it back to Robert's bruce. They count out their money.

By 1890, butch Cassidy, or Robert Parker had kind of taken up this Butch Cassidy moniker.

They would end up moving, he at least, I believe along with Warner would end up moving up to DeBose, Wyoming. They purchased a ranch there. This is probably more of a front for Cassidy, because he has this growing group of outlaws,

and for all intents of purposes at this point, Wyoming's untouched territory by these guys. It's obviously probably no stranger to bank robbers and bad cowboys and cattle wrestlers and all that kind of stuff. But Montana and Wyoming at this point have become an area where you have these giant cattle farms. that are across all of this land. And these cattle farms are run by rich guys back east.

They're run by people in England. They're run by people in Europe. It's just, it's kind of something that's never really changed today. I guess big cattle farms are never usually run by the rancher that owns that land that's out there working the land. You'd like to think so, but when you actually boil it down,

probably not. Same thing with farms. You're still going to have a smattering of people that run their own independent forms, but a lot of them is just big business is sucked up. So, excuse me, these places in Wyoming are kind of brilliant because if they have 10,000 head of cattle out there, they're not counting all 10,000 head of cattle every single night.

They might count them every six months. If you get to 900 or 9,997, probably not the biggest deal in the world. You do that to four or five farms. You start to get yourself quite a head of cattle. Yeah, I think you're stealing it in groups of 50. Maybe. Because you're also maybe keeping some for yourself just from a survivability standpoint in these little like areas that they're hiding out. Yeah.

But your goal is to make money off them. Yeah. To sell them. Because that's the whole point of the whole thing. So. But again, you're talking about thousands of cattle. And then you're only going and doing a check how often? Right.

And how are you? You kind of got to get caught in the act, it feels like, right? especially in these big wide open spaces. Usually when they would go hit some of these ranches, they would end up protruding to that hole in the wall that you were talking about. There's another place kind of in between the hole in the wall in the perennium, if you will, between the hole in the wall and robbers roost that is called Brown's Hole. Yes.

They spent a lot of time in Brown's Hole. Seems like that was a pretty good hangout for a lot of these cowboy wrestlers. And part of the reason that Brown's Hole was a place that they went to along with, with the roost and along with the hole in the wall is not the lawmen were going to go in there. They knew where these places were. Yeah. They were like, we just don't have enough people to go in there because they're out away from everything. So it's a journey to get there.

Easily defensible. Easily defensible. And then once you get there, you have no idea how many guys are currently there. And you know they're all armed. You just got to hope that these guys end up getting bit by a rattlesnake or they don't bring enough water into Brown's Hole and end up hydrate or dehydrating and dying. Yeah.

It's a situation where they're just sort of hoping that the problem takes care of itself, not understanding that these people have gone through and like you say, built cabins, they have water supplies, they've found all the necessary level elements to hang out in these places. It's just little self-sustaining

areas, but they're basically founded and populated by like independent bands of like cattle wrestlers, train robbers and outlaws. that have all kind of gotten together. It's kind of like a little mini, like, Nassau, like during the Golden Age of Piracy. Yeah.

It's these little areas that are their own little, you know, criminal or outlaw republics that it's like, don't fuck around here. You're going to get kicked out. A little bit of... Everyone just kind of live within, and that's the Holden Wall Gang kind of encompassed everybody that would use that as a hideout.

So Butch Cassidy isn't like, he's the leader of the Holden Wall Gang. he was a member of that gang. And then when Jobs needed to get pulled, he would be like, you know who I think would be good for this one, this guy, this guy, and this guy, because I know their temperaments or their skill set. And it would be almost an interchangeable thing with during jobs,

he'd be like, I'm taking this guy and I'm taking this guy. And even on the other side of the coin, law enforcement is looking at these robberies that are going on, and they don't know who was there. But a lot of the times they like to put Butch Cassidy's face on it because he became so synonymous with these gangs. They were able to name him

in a lot of these places. So he's going by a million different monikers at this point in time. Cassidy would end up finding romance with the daughter of a man that Cassidy had sold horses and beef to. Her name was Anne Bassett. He also worked on the ranch

for quite a while. So you're telling me you could consider him a Basset hound? A little bit. A little bit of a basset hound. These are situations we're going to start talking about some of these jobs that they're pulling, and they're pulling them in places where

they could be recognized because they've spent time in the bars there. They spent time working at these ranches. During that first job in Colorado in Telluride, they didn't cover their faces. They eventually do the whole bandana thing. But in this situation, because it's the first time, part of me also thinks no one knows who we are. But also, we need to try to take out variables and if we walk in there or we have to pull them up right before we walk in someone might spot us and raise the alarm but i don't know then why you don't just go in and then raise it real quick because then the guys outside can't do it either i i don't know i lack of experience i guess i think there is a big part of it though to where a lot of these guys were so

personable that even if whoever hired them as a ranch hand saw them walking out of the bank with all of this loot if you were a good person they probably weren't going to say anything not my money yeah well and who were you You're telling me that somebody's going to come out to your ranch and ask you about a ranch hand. You can't just say, this guy came in a week ago. He came in from Utah. Seemed like a nice guy. I needed help.

Yep, exactly. He seemed him. He seemed reliable. You don't really have a burden to turn these people in. So in a lot of, like, this is one of those situations where you would think what he gets taken down for would be the things that he's actually doing, the big things, robbing banks, things like that. 80 or 1894 he ends up going away for stealing a $5 horse. There's a lot to this and I don't know how deep you got into it. I kind of sit on the side that this was 100% of set up by the cattle barons because he was

becoming more well known for stealing cattle. And this story kind of goes, Cassidy and one of his friends, his name was Al Hainer were traveling in Wyoming. They ended up running across this other cattle wrestler who sold them three horses. And for this three horses, they made up this bad bill of sale, just a fake bill of sale, but they didn't think about it. Like you said, they were charging $5 a horse. I've never bought or sold a horse, and granted this is a long time ago. I'm going to go out on a limb and say a $5 horse is a solid deal.

Depends on the horse. Yeah, but still, that's even a $5 horse. You could cut him down and eat him. as gross as that sounds, and you're going to get your money's worth. True, I mean, but because of how much they're stealing, $5 makes it sound like really cheap, like there's something up, or like it's a shady deal. There's that, too.

They ended up going back and parking these horses as they went out on another ride. They came back. There was a owner of the horses and a lawman that were standing there waiting. They both ended up getting arrested. They were arrested in this place called Lander, Wyoming. How do you walk me through how that happens? I don't mean seriously, but you find the horse and you're like, hey, that's my horse. And you're like, well, no, that's my horse.

And they're like, no, I have a horse that looks like. I'm sorry, that's just how my horse looks. Like, horses look like each other sometimes. I don't know what to tell you. Did they fill out a property report with the police? Well, no. There would be some type of brand. I'm guessing to identify it.

But can you imagine that it's like checking the VIN number of something? He's like, actually, if you want to look up under its armpit right here behind the shoulder, you can see this specialized brand that we made for the horses. like, can I take a look at your horses? He's like, um, you're over there trying to file off. You have to try to burn off the brand like you're filing the serial number off something. You just got a... But that just sounds jinky. It's like, hey, that's my horse. And he's like, no, it's not, unless it's got like the same saddle and the saddle says the guy's name. Yeah, true. If you think that sounds stupid, wait till you hear how this whole thing plays out.

So, Butch reaches out to a friend and he happened to be a lawyer that he had pretty, previously saved in a saloon brawl. And basically this guy, Douglas A. Preston, says, if you ever need me to get you out any trouble, I am your guy. Douglas A. Preston goes on to serve in the Wyoming House of Representatives, and he also becomes the Attorney General of Wyoming. I tell you that, to tell you how this story is going to play out, Preston's idea to get him out of this sale, or out of this predicament that he's in,

is to forge a purchase agreement with the signature of this problem, prominent horse trader from the Midwest. And Butch was like, yeah, that's a great plan. Nobody's going to see this coming. Let's get in and get this done. I'd like to get this off my plate. Well, they go walking into court on the day of court, and sitting in the courtroom, they noticed somebody that they had never seen before.

They begin asking around the courtroom who this gentleman is. And it turns out that he is the prominent Midwest horse stealer that they had used the name forged on the bill of sale. The prosecution had flown, no, driven this guy in, trained this guy in. Yeah. Just to take down a guy who stole three horses that had peddled down to one charge. Does that sound like something Wyoming would do, or does that sound like something a bunch of cattle barons would do? No. So, okay.

I get what you're saying is basically they got him for the only thing that they could 100% get him on. This was Capone and tax evasion. Yep, yep. Butch ends up getting sentenced to two years in state prison. Another weird aside here is the night before he goes into prison. He actually gets let out of jail to go spend time with the prosecutor that prosecuted the case and then spent most of the time talking to the prosecutor's mother and sister. Apparently, they both had said that they would never forgive their son and brother for prosecuting Butch Cassidy.

so there must have been some prior relationship here that happens. There's a couple other little places where it seems like his buddy Elsie that we'll talk about. He ends up getting pinched and when they're down in Argentina not to blow any cover here, Butch sends a letter to Elsie Lay's step or no, his mother-in-law telling her about their time in Argentina. He has a weird relationship with families that I can't quite figure out. So regardless, he ends up going to jail the next day. He's supposed to be there for two years, 18 months rolls around, and Butch hears a little whispering of maybe some commutations coming his way.

He spent 18 months doing hard labor. And apparently he was a model inmate, did his job, was respectful of the guards, enough that they were all pretty close with him. He writes the governor a letter to hopefully get a pardon after these 18 months. And Governor William Richards writes him a letter back saying, I'll grant you the pardon. The only promise you have to make is that you will never break the law again. Butch gets this letter.

He reads it. I swear. You would think that that would be what it was. And Bush says, I would love to tell you that that is what my career path is going to be, that I'm going to change careers. But I can't promise you that that's going to happen. In fact, I'm definitely going to go back to what I was doing.

I can make you a promise, though, that I will never commit another crime in Wyoming. And the governor gets his letter back. He's like, that's pretty honest. I'm actually going to grant this guy a pardon, not because he said he wouldn't commit any more crimes. Do you think that's true? Yeah.

Really? Dude, this is a lot less. We just talked about a guy who forged a bill of sale for some, for one horse. Yeah. Ascending to the attorney general of Wyoming. Well, and I guess here's the other thing, too. He was getting out. Yeah.

Six months after that anyway, for the two years. and by having a promise that he won't do that in your state again, you're like, so I'm living about six months early with a promise that I don't have to deal with this shit anymore. Actually, you know what? That's actually not a bad deal. Deal. Yeah.

A good deal. Yep. He paid a debt to society. We'll give him good behavior. We'll call it that. We'll let him out. Freeboch becomes a harder criminal as far as kind of his tactics. But again, he's still not a very violent guy.

His group of bandits continues to grow. He has this kind of oldest sibling mentality, I think, that helps him kind of keep these guys under control and kind of these guys are flocking to him because he is a pretty stable guy. Among his most trusted associates, there was this guy named Elsie Lay, who I think was probably his closest friend. They pulled a lot of jobs together. If Butch had to trust somebody, Elsie was kind of that guy. He also had somebody named Harvey Kid Curry Logan, which is not a lot of. going to make sense here because he also had somebody named George flat-nose curry. I don't know what order that he met these guys in, but I would assume that Kid Curry

had to have to be first, right? Harvey Logan being named Kid Curry was a choice that they made. Well, yeah, that had to have been first. Then George Curry shows up. He's like, hey, what's up? My name's George Curry. No, it's flat-nose. You guys can call me Curry.

Like, we already have a kid curry. Oh, he's a Curry, too? Well, no, his name's Harvey Logan. They're also known in like the papers as this as well, too. Another guy that was with him was a guy named Ben Kilpatrick. Another, I believe, was Will Carver. We're going to get to Sundance. You're killing me here.

What? It wasn't Ben Kilpatrick. It was Ben the Tall Texan Kilpatrick. It was Will News Carver because he always wanted his name to be in the newspaper. Yeah, he kept like news. They'd do that in the newspaper. movie too where he's like pulling out the news clippings everything's like i like my name in the paper these guys have the best nicknames and i do think that will carver and killpatrick were both texans

so i'm assuming he got the name tall tex him because he was just taller than will he was pretty tall was he yeah i think he was pretty tall um yeah i mean he returns this life like immediately after getting getting um pardoned but he does decide he needs to go about it differently he wants basically like a tight-knit elite crew to pull up like these larger jobs. I think he also understands that this, if he's suspected on big stuff, even if they can't get him for that, they can get him on small stuff or they can find a way to get him on small stuff. So if he's going to try to get away from this at all, he's going to have to go bigger so that

way he can actually have some money to live on. Absolutely. The official formation kind of as it goes in the, the lore of Butch and Sundance. The formation took place like August 18th, 1896. There was this massive gathering of like regional outlaws at Brown's Hole. You get over there? I know, I know.

It's going to happen every time, man. I can't help it. This is where Cassidy proposed basically a like train robber syndicate knowing that that's where the biggest scores were going to be and they were able to step away from banks. And that's when he kind of relates or recruits that core that we just named off. And there's this weird. meaning. I don't know when it takes place, but we're going to be talking about a group called the Wild Bunch and their outlaws. The Wild Bunch is Outlaws. Had come back to Bassett Ranch in Wyoming

for a Christmas party. Oh, that is. This is the formation of the Wild Bench. Okay. You're talking, this was after August 13th, 1896? It was August 18th is what they're saying it was. Okay, so maybe that was the Christmas time. So put a pin in that. August 13th, 1896. Elsie, potentially this other character named Harry Longbaugh and Cassidy and a couple others, Rob a Bank in Mount Pillar, Idaho, which I don't know if anybody's ever been to Mount Pillar, Idaho, not a big place. Still not a big place to this day. It is pretty much right on the borders of Idaho, Utah, Wyoming in kind of that southeast corner. Montpelier was just the easiest place outside of Wyoming to hit. and Boch Cassidy had made a promise to the governor

that he wasn't going to do anything in Wyoming. Well, here's the thing. All of this, it was like the job of the local law enforcement, like the marshals in the town and everything, to do this, but they only had jurisdiction as far as the state lines and the borders went. The Pinkertons were different. That was more of a federal detective agency,

so they were able to cross borders, but it was much more expensive to do so. That's why they had to be hired as like a private, basically a private enterprise. But that's exactly what you're going to do is because Montpelier, you could also get to Utah as well. So depending on where you had to go, and if your next job, you want to go to Utah, why not? Part of the reason they had to hit it was because their old buddy, Matt Warner. Yeah, Matt Warner had gotten himself pinched.

He had ended up killing two lawmen and he was sitting waiting for trial. So they knock off this bank in Montpelier. They take about $7,000. A pretty cool move that they end up pulling as they're being chased by this mob out of Montpelier. They end up running across this native wild horse. And as they're running away, Bush says, wait, hold on a second, I got an idea. They end up doing a couple things to the horse, end up taking off.

They'd slap the horse's ass. He was headed back towards the mob that was cut the posse that was coming to try to catch them. And all of a sudden, this posse is moving. down this mountain pass and they start hearing just this gigantic rustling going on. Some of the posse turned tail and head back to Montpelier. They don't want to deal with a big group of outlaws and getting ambushed. All of a sudden, this wild horse with a bunch of branches tied to his back, dragging through all of the brush that was making all the noise appears. They realized they just fell for one of Butch's old ruses. This is when they actually started using

the bandanas as well. So it was Cassidy and L. lay the one into the bank wall. I think Henry Bubb Meeks was the other guy that was with him. So it was three-man crew. Did the same thing where they forced the teller and the customers against the wall. And they're still robbing a good

chunk and it's not going to be a lot of paper money in regards to this. It looks like it's going to be like gold and silver, a little bit of paper currency. But, man, that is kind of like thinking about the weight as well. Like hardcore sacks of like

gold that you're running out with. All you're missing is the fucking dollar sign on it. Well, $7,000. Decent hall, $277,000 in today's money. Pretty big hit. So Cassidy uses a large portion of this money to give to his old lawyer friend, Doug Preston, to basically pay for the defense of Warner. Now, Warner was arrested in Vernal, Utah.

He had shot two lawmen after... Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're skipping over. the deputy chase, the sheriff chase for this Warner? For the Mount Pellier job. Oh, I just got to where they duped him with the horse. And I guess we need to talk about

Butch's signature move as well. Yeah. Okay, so this Montpelier one, so there was a local deputy sheriff's name was Fred, I think it was Cruishank, and he wanted to basically, because as soon they came out of the bank, they're wearing bandanas, an alarm went off and everything, or someone raised the alarm, but these deputies don't have like a large section. They have to raise like a posse.

People will be like, hey, who's going to go with me to get these guys? So he didn't have a horse. He had to borrow a bicycle, which were kind of new at the time. Yes. And he actually kept them in sight for a short distance because it was kind of an established road. They outpaced him as soon as they hit any type of terrain. And this was where he had done that pre-established move that you were talking about,

which is going to be a continuation of he didn't know the guy just had a bike he's assuming that they're going to have horses to try to chase him down how are you keeping up on a bike doesn't say he kept up long man he kept them in eyesight in sight you realize if it's a straight road and it's

just looking straight ahead down the road you could see someone a way or weighs down there I'm sure riding a horse probably wears you out probably beats a hell out of your ass it can't be that comfortable but there's no way that that sheriff wasn't gassing out a half mile into that bike ride. I'm telling you right now, there's no way he was going to keep up with them.

I don't know. He must have, he must not have known what bicycles could do. He's like, oh, this thing is, it'll be so much faster. Finally, the posse he catches up to him as he's huffing and puffing on the side of the road and they ask where he went, and he just points and he says they went that away. Yeah. But, I mean, they were able to gather people to go right after them. Yeah.

Eventually. But they have such a head start. they had arranged the what they would have these little stops and Butch would basically put fresh horses for everybody at these stops so they would just leave the horses they had just been riding to exhaustion jump on the new horses and keep going well the guys that are still riding to catch up with them

don't have the luxury of this their horses are going to tire out and then it's not like once they even got to the spot there would be the other horses are just exhausted as well thinking about it I mean I don't see how this was something new that Butch had created. And there's ancient versions of this that weren't used in robberies. But I think Butch's kind of spin that he put on this was as somebody who raised horses, they would take the sprinters into town.

They would take the Usain bolts, 50 meters, just going like crazy. As much distance early on as you can once you drop into the trees, put the better climbers, the ones that are more sure-footed. Yeah, the ones that can. run for days are going to be the ones next. So you're going to have the sprinters that are going to get you out of the city as fast as possible. And you're going to jump on a horse that's going to outlast anything that's coming out of Montpelier. Yeah.

Covering both terrains. It works time and time again. Did you know that the original bank of Montpelier is the only bank robbed by Bunch Cassidy that's still around today? It's still there? Yep. Wow. Bob Meeks out of this job was the only one that was caught out of the trio

And it wasn't until like a year later He ended up getting identified by a teller and arrested You can't get robbed bad for getting spotted by a teller That's a... That's shameful You robbed a bank and you got caught by a teller in another bank What if he wasn't even robbing it? Or if it was the same guy and he had...

Yeah, he just went in for a deposit Yeah He looked familiar I want to do a withdrawal, please. Oh, you're going to do with a gun, scumbag? What are you talking about, man? I noticed those knuckles anywhere. It was you.

So after they hit this job, oh, to finish out the Mount Pillar's story, they used this money. They ended up paying Douglas Preston. Douglas Preston then goes and speaks to Matt Warner. Warner says, I want to defend myself. And Preston says, well, I was given money by Mr. Cassidy and his associates to try to get you off on this charge. Warner says, I'm going to defend

myself. So Preston used that money in a way. I don't want to say he was bribing court officials or if he was bribing jurors. He shot two men in cold blood and ended up getting a manslaughter charge and went to prison for five

years. I don't know the rules of the Old West. I figure shooting and killing two people, maybe longer than five years. If you get some out prove that it was self-defense. I, like, that's what you're saying the money goes toward changing someone's opinion yeah i believe that they did it pretty well um bathroom break before we keep going okay okay well hello listen while we head to the restroom and get ourselves something to drink why don't you do something nice for yourselves head on over to patreon dot com slash historically

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And with that said, let's get back to the good stuff. Okay. Let's meet the other half of this famous duo. At a Christmas party at the Bassett House. The proto members of the Wild Bunch dress in their finest attire and serve food and drinks at the Bassett Christmas party. Now, this is kind of an area where they're outside of hole in the wall, they're outside of Brown's hole. but it's kind of a meeting place for a lot of these not necessarily criminals but

vagabonds of the age and farmhands will kind of meet at the Bassett Ranch to do these celebrations. There were like 75 people there. It's like Wild West Fast and Furious. Yeah. Type criminal family shit. Family for sure.

There was a man named Harry Longabaw that showed up and was there and this was kind of the first believe meeting between Longabaugh and Butch. And Harry Longabaugh would be known as the Sundance Kid because he did a stretch in Sundance Prison in Wyoming. And you're right. Sundance Film Festival is in Park City, but is in the process of being moved to Boulder

next year. Okay. So not related to Sundance in Wyoming, but totally makes sense that Redford created it. We got to go and check that out. That'd be cool to do kind of a history of that. So Harry or Harold, Alonzo Longaboff. Again, not a cowboy name. He wants something different.

And at a certain point, having the name kid on it, you might age out of that. I don't know exactly how old it's appropriate. At what point do you become the Sundance guy or Sundance man? But at age 20, he was caught stealing a horse, a saddle, and a gun in Sundance, Wyoming. And this is why he ends up serving 18 months. at the Wyoming Territorial Prison. The local newspapers are the things that are the ones that started referring to him as the Sundance Kid. Yeah, so that wasn't the same prison that Butch was locked up in.

No, no, no, different. Yeah, Butch was Wyoming State Prison. Butch was Laramie, right? Yeah, and Laramie. Yeah, that's right, yeah. You have this partnership that's going to transcend, I guess, fiction, or fantasy and fiction, really. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, like we said earlier, just go hand in hand. It's a match made in heaven, but it's the same time.

Yeah, Butch and Sundance. They aren't exactly like best of friends. You still have Elsie in the picture who is a very good close friend to Butch. In 1897, the group had met up with Ann Bassett, who was finally 18, I guess, on Butch's account. And Elsie's lady, they end up moving up to, or they meet up in Robert. robbers roost before they end up robbing this it's a very interesting robbery so this is pretty much i believe just butch and elsie correct at the um pleasant valley coal company yeah pleasant valley coal company they are i believe they're they show up to pleasant valley they say hey we're looking

for work the people in pleasant valley like just hang around they'll do that's definitely be somebody that needs a ranch hand or a farm hand that's going to come through here. And what they were doing was they were scouting the payroll coming through from the Pleasant Valley Coal Company. It wouldn't always be the same day because, shocker, these guys weren't the only ones that were trying to rob the coal companies of their payroll. And I think this place was in Castlegate, Utah. I believe so. I think you're right there. As they're waiting there, yes, Castlegate's correct. they end up seeing the payroll employee walk out to start paying people and they go up and they rob him. Now they steal a sack of silver and a sack of gold and as they're headed out, Cassidy's horse gets spooked and ends up running away from him.

Elsie has to then go retrieve that horse, bring it back to Butch. Butch ends up jumping on the horse and in the whole kind of hullabaloo of what happened, I believe they left either the bag of silver or the bag of gold and took the other one. So they left the bag of silver. So yeah, that's what, okay. They had to be there for the week because in order to throw off robberies, like trains getting robbed and to keep the schedule kind of more fluid, companies didn't have like an every other Friday pay schedule or a weekly pay schedule.

What would happen is there was like a whistle at the minor wherever it was and they would announce when it was actually payday. And so this week that they're hanging out there, he's trying to scout out watching the train station when trains roll in, seeing if the bookkeeper from the mining company is there at the train station. And so the day that it happens that he hears this whistle, letting everybody in the town workers that are on shift or aren't, you know, or at home that it's payday, he basically is just watching this guy. And as they're transporting the money right out of the train, he just walks up to him as he's walking it into like the mining office. and pulls out the gun is like, hey, I'm going to go ahead and relieve you of that. And all the miners are around,

except none of them speak English. They don't care? No, no, no, that's what I'm saying, is that he analyzed this situation. He's like, because that sounds really audacious. There's so many variables there. Looking at that and saying, hey, he's stealing the money.

That money's supposed to be our payday. He's still in our payday and not having the group bull rush him and just kill him. he's going in there with the knowledge of they're not going to know what I'm doing. They're not going to know what I'm asking this guy or saying. So he walks in in front of all these people. None of them are doing anything.

Takes the gold. They end up leaving the silver, the bag of silver. But I think they got away with like somewhere between like 9 and 10,000. So much money in silver back then. And then this is a situation again where he stashed his fresh escape horses along the route. All the way back to Robert's Roost. Mm-hmm.

The first big. train robbery that they pull and this is it's one of those things where every single time i don't know if it's revisionist history or the law did just attach butch to everything that they possibly could bad to try to sully his name but there's always a lot of question will was butch there was butch not there i'm going to assume a train robbery butch is there yeah i mean it sounds pretty logical part of the train robbery isn't like a job that requires a lot of violence. It's kind of a finesse thing. You have to make sure it slows down.

You got to get them to stop. You got to move them along, all that kind of stuff. Dynamite finesse. Well, yeah. You have to tell them where to put it and how long have refused to put in, I would assume. Jumping back just for a second. So how Sundance kind of gets into this is after robbing a bank in South Dakota,

he ends up fleeing to Robbers Roost in Utah, where him and his girlfriend basically named at a place. had camped right next to Butch. And so they'd kind of met each other while they were at Robbers Roost. Kind of within like the Pinkerton files and everything, they say that Sundance was more feared as far as like, wasn't as charismatic,

was a little bit quieter, but was feared because fast on the draw, really accurate. And it made that reputation made Lawman really hesitant to actually approach him. They think part of where that comes from is because the Wild Bunch had two members,

named the kid. They had Kid Curry. While Sundance kind of avoided actually killing anyone. In fact, there's nothing to show that he did kill anyone actually. Kid Curry was actually really violent and also a very accurate shooter who'd killed at least like five law enforcement officers. So I think they kind of did some confusion on it

because they were just saying the kid kills this. And so they were assuming once Sundance maybe got a little bit more prominent that that's who it was doing. Awful nicknames. You can't have two kids and a crew. Well, Kid Curry and Sundance Kid, you just call him Sundance. True. I guess it's, I don't know, it just feels like these guys must have started young.

Like, I think Sundance Kid got it because he was probably the youngest guy in prison in Sundance. Yeah, or the local papers, he had a baby face or something like that. Not Robert Redford. But, no, yeah, there's no record of him killing anyone during his entire criminal career in the United States. so they think that that's just kind of something created or confused with the other kid. Supposedly, Sundance was like the shooter of the group too. Yeah. He was the most accurate shooter for as great as Butch was on a horse.

Sundance was the guy that was going to shoot the cards out of the tree. We were to the train rub. We are to June 2nd, 1899. outside of Wilcox, Wyoming. So there's going to be some time between these. It's not like they're just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. They're taking their time, they're spending their money, and then they're having to kind of come back to this

when the well starts to run a little bit dry. I don't know how, though. It's so much money. Buddy, you get a taste of the life. I guess. And this is another one. There's not even any cocaine at this point. Yeah.

It's, you know what, honestly, it's just cards and booze and pussy. Sorry, cards and booze and vagina. All three, very powerful. And all three. Cash, cash money. Gold, you can buy all three of them. And this is at a time when there's no,

there's no entertainment. Those are the entertainment. All of it costs money. Supposedly, these dudes hit like every brothel in the old west. They never passed a brothel. Well, and here's the thing, too. I think it was like Sundance liked to gamble.

because he had edda, so he wasn't really needing that. But I do think that Cassidy was probably did like the ladies of the night. Again, we're a pro-sex podcast here. He, again, he was giving the money back to the people, and he also liked to gamble as well. I had also heard a couple of times. They were good time, Charlie's, man. For as mysterious as that it was, there were some things that I saw about her maybe coming from a brothel that Sundance may have purchased himself a night and decided to take the,

the whole thing. Well, and that kind of also reminds me a little bit. I know she isn't this character, but in Tombstone, the woman who's with Val Kilmer, who's with Doc, always kind of strikes me as someone like that, just the look on her. I mean, she's hot, but she's kind of like got crazy eyes. Who's the lady? I can't remember what her name is, but he always sounds like, you might be the devil. Okay, so, are you looking it up? Yeah. To see your name like in... actor, the actual actress. Oh, I can't remember what her name is. I can't even remember the character.

Dana Delaney. Huh? Was that her name, Dana Delaney? Maybe. Yeah, she's hot. I think the pictures, there's only like one or two pictures that we get of Vetta, and one of them's from New York. And she's a striking lady.

She's pretty, for sure. Yeah, June 2nd, 1899. Union Pacific, Overland Flyer. You have Kid Curry. You have flat-nose curry. You have Butch, and you have Sundance. The reason flat-nosed curry was named as flat-nose curry because

it was said that his eyelids stuck out further than his nose He was... Oh, his brow. A pug-like figure. His brow. Yeah, I mean, just I think everything... Very, what would you call it, like,

crow-magnin looking? Bit of, yeah, maybe, yeah, something like that. At one o'clock in the morning, there's two men that are holding lanterns up. This Overland flyer train is coming down the tracks. And these two men holding lanterns are holding this right at the beginning of this trestle bridge.

So for some reason, which maybe this kind of makes sense because of the trestle bridge, the train engineer, the conductor ends up throwing the brakes on as he throws the brakes on the two men then pull up their handkerchiefs over their face, that there's rumor that they were napkins that were stolen from this local restaurant that they had eaten at right before they left to go rob the train and they must have forgotten their bandanas so they just stole. Do restaurants have napkins at that point?

Yeah, because they wouldn't have paper napkins. What? They wouldn't have paper napkins back then. No, but I'm saying I don't know how many restaurants had napkins. Oh, you think it was just a generally dirty place? Yeah. Yeah, that could potentially be it, I guess.

Well, here's the thing, dude, there had guess been some rain or something like that that they'd been traveling through and they had stopped them at a point that was before a bridge. So it wasn't unheard of for the driver to look out and it's like, oh shit, someone's flagging me down because the bridge might be out. That's, I think, the most logical conclusion is if that's happening right before a trestle bridge, it means that either the bridge is out or something is catastrophically wrong and you can't get across. Which is genius because you're doing that. And then I do believe that at one point, was it this one where they actually brought it across the bridge?

Okay. So two minutes. enter the train. They end up forcing the conductor to disengage all of the passenger cars. They're going to pull the engine and the what's known as the express car. It's basically the pay car. It holds all of the valuable shit that's being taken. From how I understand it, the way that the train was kind of stacked up is you had the engine. You had the coal car. You had the express car right behind it. And then passengers going back. And so

they literally like, let's get rid of any variable here. Passengers are going back. We're going to go and separate what we have. actually need and get it two miles down the track. Yep. Pull it across this bridge. Is they're going across the bridge, they get back onto solid land and they hear a giant explosion because the wild bunch had just exploded this trestle bridge. And I don't know what it was. I don't know if they were thinking that they were going to be chased by anybody that

was going to be coming down that way, maybe from the, I don't know if there was a separate engine behind to pull it the other direction potentially that they could have continued to push. So this kind of calls in for me into question on the timing of. So train companies that were transporting this money and everything, they were the ones that were out all of this money. Yeah, Union Pacific. Union Pacific. So they had actually developed,

I don't know if it was in conjunction with the Pinkertons or just themselves, but kind of their own private military outfits to try to stop this kind of stuff. So they would have engines that would be, you know, engine, coal car, and then it would be like a stable car to have horses. And this was a completely separate train. Then the next one would have barracks and then the next one would have like a kitchen or where you could eat. And it was just these short little trains that were basically like rapid response forces in which they would have these like gangs or posse of guys that they hired try to track down these like criminal gangs. And I don't know if they followed a couple miles

behind them or anything like that. But the strategy of doing this, yeah, it gets a the passengers, they're not interested in robbing the passengers, they don't need them there. But what that prevents them from doing is having anybody follow them, which kind of makes me think that maybe, like, Union Pacific or the train companies, had started doing this earlier because these guys aren't the first guys that are robbing trains. It had been done by outlaws before this, since there were train tracks and money on the trains, they were getting robbed. So these just seemed like things that were implemented to try to catch the Wild Bunch or, but

Cassidy, but that's genius. You're not only trapping that train behind the passenger cars, now you can't even allow them to walk around and use the trestle to get to you. And you can't be accused of killing any of the passengers. No, but I mean, think of how expensive it was to build those trestles, man. Oh, yeah. To get the resources out there to rebuild those, to shut down that line for that long, how much money would be lost? Blowing that bridge costs Union Pacific far more than what they stole. Yes. And to get to the stealing part of it, because this is fucking awesome. As we were just talking about, they left the passenger cars, they pulled them across the trestle bridge, two miles down to where the rest of the bandits were.

As they get there, they surround the express car, and they start screaming in, yelling, demanding that this attendant named EC Woodcock needs to open the door. And EC Woodcock says, suck my cock. We are not going to let you inside of this. I shall not let you inside me. Inside this express car. See in the movie, Woodcock was just kind of like an o-fish-bumbling guy. He's like, sorry, I can't let you in. This is Mr. Yada-Yada-Yada-Yada's money.

Well, it doesn't matter who he was because they were going to figure out a way in. And this was the learning curve of the train robber. They just packed this door with dynamite and blew the shit out of the door. It like blew a whole damn near in the store. side of the train. And of course, Woodcock being inside this express car is blown and his hearings all messed up. They grab a hold of Woodcock and they say, we need you to open the safe. And Woodcock says, I've forgotten the safe combination. You guys just blew the door off and I've wrecked my brain. So, tried and true method, load up a shit ton of dynamite in front of the

safe and they end up blowing the safe. Now, they use so much dynamite that the explosion actually singed the edges of the bills. Mm-hmm. I mean, you're using the dynamite to literally blow the door off the safe and the dynamite regardless of like when you watch dynamite go off, it's just the explosion of all the debris around it.

It's still creating enough heat and explosive to flash burn something. Problem number two. This is 1899 and we're talking about Wyoming. Razberries are very hard to find. There is a large shipment of raspberries

I was wondering what you were getting out with this. In the express car, right next to the safe with all the money and golden notes. Those were special raspberries for somebody. Oh, absolutely. The explosion of the dynamite ends up basically turning the raspberries into jam. So the notes that they get away with are singed at the edges because of the explosion of the dynamite and then stained red with the raspberry juice from this big dynamite massacre that goes on. The proto version of the blue thing that in banknotes and everything, yeah.

Which. Ah, see, you got some of this jam money. Yeah, I mean, silver, doesn't matter. You can wipe the jam off. Gold, doesn't matter. You can wipe the jam off. Bank notes even to a certain extent, you can make them road hard and put away wet. See, this needs to be a scene for CSI, Wyoming territory, where someone comes up and is like,

oh, my God, there's raspberry preserves everywhere. And he's like, I guess you could say we've got to be. in a jam. We don't know they didn't do that. We didn't know that Union Pacific didn't pop that off. It becomes a problem though because all the Pinkerton

agency has to do, which this puts them front and center on the Pinkerton chopping block, is go around to a town and walk into the tavern, walk into the brothel and say, let me see your money. You see a singed bill

with some red standing on it. You know, that this gang has been active in this town. Yeah, money laundering is pretty difficult at this point. Also, this comes at a time when now they're not only stealing coinage, but they're also transporting, like, more paper money. Yeah. And so the paper money itself, for as low tech as it is, it's also going to have serial numbers and things like that,

that the Pinkertons are able to kind of, like, track spending on. Absolutely. But again, if it's a red-stained bill, there's a pretty good chance. Oh, that's what I'm looking for first and foremost. You just see someone like lean over and just lick it a little bit like raspberry, God damn it. They've been here. So in 1890, they get away with $30,000, which was like $1.2 million in today's money. This wasn't a casualty-free zone because Kid Curry and Flatnose were involved in a gunfight upon the escape with the sheriff Joe Hazen that they then shoot and kill.

1899 in July The train robbery puts them on the radar The Pinkertons as we were just talking about There is this guy named Detective Charlie Soringo That gets put on the case And as we talked about during the Pinkerton episode If there's one thing that we know about the Pinkertons It's that they never sleep

So there's another thing that we know about the Pinkertons Is there a shady detective agency That might have faked an assassination plot on Abraham Lincoln to become a proto secret service. And they end up being involved in, if you haven't listened to the Pinkerton episode, it's a great episode, but just the strike busting and everything else.

The Pinkertons for their reputation just got worse and worse over time. The Pinkertons are basically a company that didn't have any jurisdiction that could kind of go anywhere, but they were almost an entity that was hired by corporations and like private entities

to go after people that were robbing them individually. It wasn't people that were like robbing the government or anything like that. It was Union Pacific hiring the pinkertons to track down people who are robbing them. Yeah. At this point in time, most of the Wild Bunch ends up heading down to New Mexico because the Pinkertons are kind of hot on their trail. And in New Mexico, they work in this ranch for, oh no. Did you forget the name? Yeah. Is this the guy that you were talking about before we...

Yeah, and that's why I forgot it because we were talking about it earlier. It's a man who owned a ranch down in New Mexico. Ranch man. He's not going to play a huge part of the story. Yeah, no, not really. They're hiding out in New Mexico as they create this just big massive following from this train robbery. And down in New Mexico, the guy that they're working for just absolutely loves them. he ends up making Butch like his trail boss to go down there and work.

And as the Pinkertons kind of start this spread and sprawl, they head down to New Mexico. And as they're down there, they are going around to all of these different ranches. And they're showing pictures of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid because they have both of their mugshots from both of their time in prison. And it turns out that when this owner in New Mexico sees the picture of Butch Cassidy, he really, realizes that he looks quite a bit like the guy that he hired for his trail boss. His name was like Joe something. It was, yeah, I can't remember what, he's using aliases a lot. Yeah.

And, Butch ends up coming back and speaks to the owner. And the owner says, you know, there's a Pinkerton agent showed up around here. And he showed me a picture and said that it was a guy named Butch Cassidy. Butch Cassidy looks a shitload like you. And Bush just kind of smiles at him and doesn't deny it. And he says, we'll be out of here in a little while. don't worry about the detective on the case. I actually saved his life in a bar fight,

not from other patrons that were going to kill him, from the guys in my gang that knew that he was there looking for me. Well, I don't think if he's doing a good job, he's like, well, I appreciate you not leaving me in the lurch and like with the work I can't complete. He's like, how about we hang out till I'm done working for the season or whatever, and then we'll be gone. He's like, yeah, whatever.

I already told him that I didn't know you. It's not like they're going to come back out here. Well, Butch is starting to feel the heat because he, he is in a situation where he kind of needs to go straight. He needs to figure out amnesty. And by late 1899, Cassidy reaches back out to Doug Preston, and Doug Preston reaches out to a lawyer back in Utah, and the plan is to request amnesty from the governor of Utah,

and the only way that the governor of Utah is going to grant him that amnesty is if the Union Pacific grants him that amnesty. So the way that this kind of shakes out is Utah governor, Heberwells, gets in contact with Union Pacific, sets the terms. Doug Preston then gets a hold of Union Pacific, and they agreed to meet at this spot. It was in, oh shit. Last Soldier Stage Station in Wyoming. Last Soldier Stage Station. Tough to say.

Sounds like kind of a scary place. That's Soldier State, yeah. Cassidy shows up early as any good outlaw would and scouts this location to make sure that this isn't a setup to catch him. Preston and the Union Pacific reps are on a train that is on the other side of a storm that washed out a bunch of track. And as they're making their way to Law Soldier Stage Station, they end up running late. and Butch sits there the entire day and nobody shows up. Which that can't be unheard of. No.

The expectation of reliability in this situation is, first of all, you're just like, be here on this day. So you're going to wait the whole day. You don't think your, you know, what am I trying to say here? Your room for error is going to be like give or take a day. because, you know, travel here isn't exactly the most reliable thing. You're still traveling timing based upon the sun. Yeah. Like, high noon is something.

Looking up and squinting, holding your finger up being like, uh-huh. And you aim for it. It's not like you can, you don't know if it's going to be 15 minutes or 50 minutes to cross through a mountain path. Well, your guess for the day is like, what day of the week is it? I can give you three days with kind of surety. It's one of those three. How long, how far removed from church are we? We're far enough away removed from time being a thing that Cassidy writes a letter and leaves it under a rock.

Yeah. That then gets found by the Union Pacific Brass and by Preston. And it's basically a note that says, Preston, you can go to hell. The Union Pacific guys can go to hell. You guys stood me up. You set me up. You double crossed me. And along with saying all of that, we see a response because he leaves without this deal.

amnesty's off the table. There's a robbery of the Union Pacific train number three near Tipped in Wyoming. And I believe this is the one, was it this one or Wilcox that's in the movie? So, okay, the one in Wilcox is that the one that had it? That's the one that had the guy. What's his name again? Woodcock. Okay, so that was in Will Cox.

Okay. I believe. This is the one where I believe. they blew the express car again to get into it. Yeah, this is, I believe from the movie, this is, that was like a conglomeration of these two train robbers. Correct. And it made them seem like, because they were like, why don't we hit it there?

They'll have more money than we'll hit it on the way. They'll never expect us to hit it on the way back. Yeah. And so, but the timing of this is spaced out in the movie. It looks like it was maybe a matter of days or weeks. This is almost a full year because the one in Wilcox was June 2nd of 18, This is August 29th of 1900. Ed, you know, Butch, Sundance, and other members of the Wildbunch, again, they say that

But Bush might not have been there for this one, but I believe he was there at all of them. Start a fire on the tracks. The train stops due to the fire. Demand then demand the express car and mail cars to be open or to be uncoupled as they had done before. They demanded the door be open. And as they go up and they pound on the door and they say, we need the door open. when they hear a familiar voice. Because EC Woodcock found himself on a second Union Pacific train.

I believe the number one train was the first one they hit, and this is the number three flyer. They hear Woodcock. Is that you out there? Yeah. Hey, Woodcock! Woodcock mentions them by name. And they say, Woodcock, you need to open the door.

He refuses a little bit. But, uh, no. ultimately, yeah, doesn't want to be blown to shit. And he opens up the door. Now, Woodcock is a man of principles. If he's going to give you the door, he's not going to give you the safe. They again have to dynamite the safe. Another, I believe this one was a little less Bernie of the money.

Oh, no, this was the one that I think blew the shit out of the safe. So this one was a bad one as well? I think they put too much dynamite and blew the shit out of the safe. And so, like, this launched money into the air. They spent a good portion of time. I'm trying to chase this money down. They escape back to Brown's Hole with between $50 to $100,000. This would be somewhere in the range of $1.9 to $3.9 million today.

So they're set for life, right? You've got to be at that point. If there's four guys, even if you're going back and paying out six guys, if you took upwards of $3.9 million, and they said in the newspapers, they'd said they only got away with like $5,000, and it was just because they didn't want the public to know. So here's the other thing, too. I think it's somewhere kind of in the middle, because the amount I have is like $55,000.

Yeah. By the time anybody gets there to determine the amount that's gone, you know the amount that's in the safe. But if you're looking around and you blow something up and there's a wind, how much is getting scattered? How much is Woodcock pulling off the top and shoving down his drawers? How much are the passengers trying to catch up and it's trying to find two? it's such a large sum of money that even if they get away with the $50,000, $1.9 million is so much back then.

He gets turned up. The boys decide that it's time to escape a little bit further south all the way down to Fort Worth in Texas to party on Hell's Half Acre, which is the Red Light District in Fort Worth. This place sounds like a ton of fun for these guys. and it was a time when I believe Elsie went down with Elsie Place went or not Elsie Place place at a place goes down with Sundance and everybody else just finds their favorite whorehouse and tries to bang their way through it it was a very rough and tumble area already and these guys show up and start spending all the cash that they can pull out of their pockets.

They're buying suits. They're buying these stupid-ass bowler hats. And this is kind of the change is you're going from running along this outlaws trail in the west where there's going to be few and far between cars, electricity in places, anything like that. It's like two different lives. Yeah. And Fort Worth is kind of sitting in this gray area between the two where it being a, I'm assuming a border city.

I don't know exactly where Fort Worth is, but at least the commerce across there from Mexico. But it's also just getting far enough east to where they do have cars. They do have electricity. They have all of these different kind of creature comforts they wouldn't have out west. And we've been talking so much about horse riding and all the goofy shit that happens in the wild west. This is 1900. This is after the Wright brothers have already started flying, learning to fly. They're already trying to put something in the air, and these guys out west are outrunning a sheriff on a bicycle chasing horses.

And even just to kind of go with the order of like how quickly things develop there and start to advance, by 1900, the Wild West was effectively, you know, vanishing. The Wild Bunch had essentially, you know, vanishing. The Wild Bunch had become too successful. They were kind of victims of their own success because the places that they were robbing had a lot of money to then pour into trying to track them down. You had the relentless pursuit of the Pinkerton National Detective Agency that we've been talking about,

those highly mobile mounted arranger units that were funded by them for the Union Pacific Railroad. And there came in time where they had to start kind of thinking about not only the future of trying to get out of this, but because of their visibility. at this point and you're going to go into a little more detail in the Fort Worth situation, it makes it to where retiring to a ranch in Montana or Wyoming or somewhere in the West starts to become a non-option because they are visible at this point and there are more

advancements in tracking them down. And so while they're in Fort Worth, the five of them go in to get a picture taken and they're just dressed to the fucking nines. One of them's got the bowler hat on they got the vest they got the pocket watches all that kind of stuff and it was such a good picture that the guy that took the picture was like fuck i'm going to put this thing up in my window so people can see how good this is and it just happened to catch the attention of like a sheriff or a pinkerton agent who goes back and recognizes somebody from their mugshot and i don't know if it was butch or sundance or one of the other guys but then through that that picture, they were able to make the connection of saying, well, okay, now we can compare

it to this one. And it gave them up-to-date photos, very well done, high professional photos of these guys, that then they were dispersing flyers by the thousands everywhere. So effectively, the net is starting to kind of like, you know, it's shrinking the area that these guys are going to be allowed to go. Yeah, it's such a stupid story because it was Cassidy, Logan, Carver, Sundance and the Tall Texan Kilpatrick that posed for this picture. Each one of them got a picture and without their knowledge

the photographer ends up printing one to put up in his shop. So this photographer being kind of the main guy in town is also in charge of taking the inmate pictures from the jail. This sheriff who was in charge of collecting and categorizing all of the pictures

of the criminals in the area, because again, if you have health half acre though, you probably want an up-to-date picture of all the criminals in the area. Ends up taking a couple inmates down to get their prison photos taken. And as he's standing there, he looks over and he recognizes what he thinks is Logan. He ends up taking the picture off of the wall. He goes back to the depository and starts rifling through all of these pictures trying to find it. And in doing so, he ends up getting Logan and Kilpatrick.

and marking them down as two of them, then calls the Pinkerton Agency saying, well, we know that these guys run in the wild bunch. Pinkerton Agency brings down both of the pictures of Butch and Sundance and matches them up, and they end up figuring out Curry along the way, or I guess it was Carver along the way, and they know this Fort Worth Five picture

is as good as gold for them. At that point in time, They're starting to wonder. They're down in Fort Worth. Are they going to try to jump the border in Mexico? There'd be one more big wild bunch hit. One more train, of course, in the U.S. together. Well, there's two, actually.

Is there two? There's a bank in a train. Oh, the bank in Winamucka? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So first, so they're going to start working their way of. Cassidy has this dream of fleeing the United States for South America.

They don't want to go to Mexico. They want to get as far away as they can. Further away from the Pinkertons, the better. So they robbed the first national bank in Winamuck, Nevada. This ends up getting them, I don't know exactly who was with it, the group. It was Sundance, it was Cassidy, and then it might have been a couple other guys. They ended up getting away with about $32,000. And then the last, was supposed to be the last big one before they actually got out of the country,

was the Great Northern Train in Wagner, Montana. And that was the wild bunch before they, all kind of decided to go there separate ways to kind of split up and I want to say that one was July 3rd, 1901 so almost a year later. Like they're taking this money and instead of like

the $32,000, just go. But he's like, no, we spent a little bit too much of it. At some point during all these robberies he buys like a cattle ranch too and then that doesn't work and so they decided one more score

they robbed this train. They make off with between like 40 and 65,000 and that's going to lead directly into them being like, okay, this is the time. No more. We have to make our run. This one was kind of a brilliant strategy, though. And it's definitely different than anything that they'd done before. And I don't know if this was just maybe them catching up to the times a little bit.

But at this point in time in 1901, Butch Cassidy's 35 years old. Yeah. Butch Cassidy is starting to become more of an adult. And the way that they pull this is the Tall Texan, Kilpatrick, ends up buying a ticket on the Great Northern Railroad. It was a coast flyer as well. Kid Curry and a guy named Def Charlie. Maybe he was the explosives expert, and that's how he became Def Charlie.

End up jumping onto the coal car at night as the train is leaving the station, just running along and jumping on there. They then climb up to the engine cab. where they force a conductor to stop the train. And as soon as they force a conductor to stop the train, you have Kilpatrick that holds up the security, which is why he bought the ticket, because this train had security on it,

holds them at bay. Oh, sorry, he just has dropping stuff in the hallway. He's like, oh, my bad. And he just pulls out two revolvers, and he holds them there. They do the same thing. They separate the mail car and the express car by decoupling. There's no

Woodcock this time, shockingly enough, two out of three times. Well, this is a different company. Which is actually probably why it's more surprising he didn't show up. He's like, I got it out of Union Pacific. Wasn't going to do that anymore. Yep. Safe is still blown for old time's sake. If you're going to go out, you might as well go out with your signature

move. You said what? You said it was right around a $60,000 take? Is that what you had? For what? 60 grand. Between 40 and 65. So that would have been 60 on the end would have been about 2.3 million. And it's, and it's again, it's the claims that these companies are putting in for how much

money they're actually hauling. Yeah. How much in raspberries were you hauling this time? We know to keep our raspberries out of the express car now. Hey, this is Montana. This isn't raspberry. We're not those fancy Wyomingans. This is kind of the Wild Bunch's last major robbery.

This was their last hurrah. At some point, Cassidy was off preparing to escape. to Argentina. He ends up selling off the ranch that you were talking about in Wyoming. Sundance, Longabaugh, and his now sweet, sweet love of his life at a place, end up going back to Longaba's family home in Northern Pennsylvania. They were a fairly successful family. They were a pretty studious family. Northern Pennsylvania doesn't exactly scream cowboy. Well, at the same time, he was the one in the family that got out and did something. So I'm wondering how much they, the family itself, I'm trying to picture this.

So I wonder if they knew he went to jail the first time. Even assuming that he does, he shows back up, dressing good with Ed on his arm. And they're like, what are you been doing? He's like, I've actually been hanging out in San Francisco, getting myself into the gold business. And just putting on an act or something like that. If he doesn't write home, there's no way they find out that he went to prison. They just assume that he's local boy done good. You're not hearing in northern Pennsylvania that there's a bunch of outlaws named Harry Longaba.

What's also little nuts is they're separating at this point, not Edda and Sundance, but like Sundance, Etta and Cassidy. And they're meeting each other in New York, which to me is like, man, how hard was it to make arrangements for that? Like, check into this place, stay here, wait the week, I'll be there at some point. Yeah. So early 1901, the trio, they end up traveling to New York City. And rather than lay in low, they basically just stay like in nice hotels. They blended in a high society. They're putting themselves up as like either railroad barons or mining tycoons.

Cattle barons. Yeah, or cattle barons. And going on these like huge shopping sprees, I think Sundance took edit to Tiffany and Co. hilarious that that was around back then. Yeah, right. this is where they get the picture done in New York of him and Eta and while they're there

the Pinkertons are out west trying to find them once they eventually find out by getting like the picture of Sundance and Edda and all this they're like these motherfuckers have been just living it up in New York for months while we've been trying to track them down on the complete opposite side of the country

the only reason that they found the picture was because they were picking off Longabaas sister's mail and that was who he had mailed the picture to, which they saw and realized that it was New York. That's one agent that's in Pennsylvania. That's not the entire force back west that's looking for them. It's going to take some time,

and not to mention, a bustling New York City at this point was probably not, excuse me, the easiest place to find somebody. Oh, definitely not. It's just, I don't know if they think that this is the retirement tour to Argentina, so they're going to hit New York City

because I assume that the reason they hit New York City was probably because that's where they could catch a boat that would be headed down there. Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. It's like, let's go see this. We don't know when we're getting back. Yeah. So let's go have. Also, I did hear that they were really smart about it because while they were in New York, they went to the dentist and they went to the doctor and had anything they could possibly think of done that they needed because they knew that where they were going to be heading medical care wasn't going to be an option. So, I mean, they're smart about this.

Yeah. February 20th, 1901, they end up boarding a British merchant steamship named the Herdiminius and that's bound, I think, for Buenos Aires. And to throw off anyone that might be trying to follow him, Sundance and Edda traveled under the alias' Mr. and Mrs. Harry Place, which is hilarious, right? While Cassidy posed as Edith's fictional brother, James Ryan. Where are the hairy places from? Oh, they're from Brown's Hole. We're the hairy places of brown soul

And James Ryan is You're getting lost back then That's a John Smith type situation Oh 100% Yeah that's a very British name James March 1901 This is when they actually arrived in Buenos Aires Argentina

They spent a few months in the capital city Basically setting up bank accounts securing land grants from the Argentine government They're looking to just use their skill set Because again there's still ranches down here There's still cattle and everything They're looking to try to use the money they brought down to buy a whole bunch of land.

And this is where they're planning on staying. They're not planning on going back to a life of crime or even back to the states. They're hoping to set up a life away from basically being hunted and just live out the rest of their days. You have a situation where Butch is

throwing $18,000 in an Argentinian bank, which immediately starts opening financial doors for everybody down there because somebody coming and depositing $18,000 from America is probably looking to do some business. The Pinkertons as well,

because they're down in Argentina, they're down in South America, they're going to be in a bunch of areas. They don't sleep. They're everywhere. They're down there for like a period between like seven and ten years. But that also allows the Pinkertons who are still after them

to get, to basically expand their reach because they're sending out thousand of these flyers to all of these law enforcement agencies and all these different countries because at this point, they probably kind of piece, together that they left the country

and South America is one of the suspected locations that they've gone. It's someplace they can disappear. And at the same time, it's got to be someplace that probably already has American industry in it. Just based on chance.

American money is going to get you very far. And it does. It truly does because the group end up purchasing a four room ranch house on 15,000 acres of land. Outside of this place called Chalila

on the Rio Blanco River, the three white folks moved next to the white river. Yeah, so June 1901, they have to travel thousands of miles south to get into what's basically what was Patagonia. It was like the Chubbett territory in Patagonia.

15,000 acre ranch on the Rio Blanco right against the Andes. Sounds pretty pictures. That had to be fucking beautiful. Yeah. 100% a place where you could see the retirement like I talked about earlier with that letter Butch ends up writing the letter back to Elsie's mother-in-law and basically says that family of three is living off of the land and enjoying what God's creation is provided it works for four years

four years they're able to keep this up operating under the names and I love this one butch goes as Santiago Ryan and Sundance is like fuck it I'm seeing with Harry Place that's why I showed up here I'm still hairy place. They had bred horses, cattle. They were respected members of the pioneering community there. There were a bunch of Welsh and Chilean immigrants that really liked them. But letters that were sent back to the U.S., those were getting intercepted because it probably wasn't hard to intercept mail. But he had explained that, you know, Butch had said, he knows, I love Patagonia.

I feel like I can finally settle down. But he's telling people where he is. and there's still bounties on their heads I four years feels like if they had just stayed put they probably would have been off the radar

but they can't stay off the radar and that's a problem well do you know what's crazy too during that time frame the four years that they were down there and it was working edda and sundance had actually sailed back to New York in March of 1902

she was homesick and wanted to visit her family they traveled to New Jersey and to Colorado before we're returning back to Argentina that July. So that's how much travel has progressed that they're able to visit there. Summer of 1904,

they came back to the United States again visiting New York, going to Fort Worth, and then they went to the World's Fair in St. Louis. That to me sounds like the most fantastical part of this. I just don't know if you roll the dice. You are, but at the same time, if you're letting it cool down,

there's a lot of, I look at it as a physical manifestation. Think of like a bulletin board. Yeah. When they left their names, they were the biggest poster in the middle. Now, do like the thing where you get the montage

of all of a sudden, all the other criminal photos starting to go up around them and it finally covers it to the point where they come back, I don't know, fuck it, maybe he grows a beard or something like that,

Sundance does. They go by different names and they just travel kind of like under the radar. People haven't seen. seen them in years. They're not actively looking out for them and they're avoiding anything that's going to get them in trouble. But just the fact that they're just, uh, Bouch is just chilling at the farm in Patagonia. And he's just like, man, I wonder if Sundance

and Ed are okay. Like they're back in the States. I wonder if that, like, am I going to know if they got arrested? And then the day they returned, they're just, he's like, oh, thank God. I thought you guys got like nabbed or something like that. Uh, that, Are we going to put any steam behind the weird love triangle that might have been going on? I mean, is it possible? Yeah. They were all together. I don't know if it was necessarily like if it would have been like she's cheating on Sundance with Butch or something like that.

I think that maybe there was a sibling type relationship, maybe between like Butch and Edda. I don't know. You don't think that they might have raised the Eiffle Tower. They might have raised the Eiffle Tower. Argentina. You can't say yes, you can't say no. At a wobbly age place.

All I'm telling you right now is if we're going off the movie portrayals of these three characters, that Eiffel Tower would have, people in the theater are just watching it being like, so they're going to like get together, right? Like all three of them.

And there was an entire, God, I don't even want to imagine the fan fiction. if that was a thing back then, of people being like, so like down in those cold Patagonian winters, they're in their four-bedroom cabin, but it becomes one room. Passion is the only heat that keeps them alive. All everybody sees is a shirtless Paul Newman or Robert Redford, and they're sold on that idea.

Edda? Smoke show in the movie. Was she? Yes. It's a pretty good trio. They'd had enough. I don't know if they needed the funds. I don't know if they needed the funds. got the itch again or if maybe

Butch turned out to be a pretty shit rancher while Sunday Antenetta were gone, he sort of nosedive this. But February 14th, Valentine's Day, 1905, two gringoes robbed the Banco de Tarapaca

and Argentio in Rio Gallegos, which was about 700 miles, 1100 kilometers south of Cholila. Pinkerton detectives catch wind of this robbery and start to positively identify Butch and Sundance. Again, we're talking about a time when, if you say, two white folks robbed a bank in Argentina

and you're actively searching out two of the most notable bank robbers of the time. Well, they were also saying, like, yeah, these guys, like, always wear their guns into town and everything, too. But, I mean, that was by, like, late 1904, I think you said 1905, maybe. they kind of sensed the trap closing and sold their livestock, basically had to abandon the Dream Branch, and that's when they fled northward into Chile and Bolivia. And at that point, there's not really an option for them to restart a ranch back up

because they had to leave everything, their money, and things like that. So that's when they're like, oh, so should we start robin shit again? But this is how likable they were, is they ended up selling the ranch after the local sheriff who was a Scottish immigrant that had really taken a liking to them

had tipped them off that the Pinkertons were on to them and basically said you guys probably got a month I'm not going to tell them anything get your shit sold and get out of here we're not going to have to worry about it anymore The other thing too is Edda had kind of sense that they were going to have to sell and when they were getting the preparations for that

and she was like I just guys I want to go home and they were like okay well we'll make it happen. It did take until like June I think 1906 but Sundance actually accompanied her from Valparicio or sorry that's why I don't pronounce it Valparaiso

Chile to San Francisco said she kissed him goodbye he returned to South America to rejoin Butch. She's kind of the mysterious thing out of this whole thing because I've heard They can't track that's so cool they can't track her after she got back Yeah I heard that she had gotten pregnant and didn't want to the child down there.

So that's why they went back up to San Francisco, but that wouldn't make any sense because that it wasn't from San Francisco. Also, I guess if they left from Chile, it would make more sense because if they left from somewhere on the East Coast, they would have had to have circled all the way down around South America because we're pre- Panama Canal.

Panama Canal, yeah. So, I mean, she's a wild card in this whole entire thing. I like that thought, though, of her being pregnant, because think how cool that would be. Oh, yeah. Sundance's kids still out there. There are some descendant of Sundance is still out there. I'm willing to bet there's some Cassidy and Sundance DNA.

Probably. Probably the Fort Worth area. There would be no way to pin that down, right? Because they didn't have, there would be nothing to test it against. And that comes in later in the episode. But. The insane thing, though, they're Mormon. Okay.

They do genealogy. Very, very well. Okay. Yeah. And if you have 13 other Cassidy kids or 13 other Parker, 12 other Parker kids that are running around. Yeah. There has to be a lineage back. Okay. And then all of a sudden, they're born in Fort Worth and it doesn't line up with anything else.

And it's like, that was Bush. You just search every place along the Roberts or what was that called the outlaw trail? Uh-huh. And you're just certain. There's Cassidy's everywhere. Uh-huh. Yeah. So they are into

Chile at this point or Are they into Chile or are they into? So like 1906 to 1908 They're just kind of drifting through Chile and Bolivia And they're kind of going and taking like Odd jobs, legitimate jobs too Trying to mixing it in with like security work

Yeah Before they get into Chile, sorry December 19th that same year Which one? Which year? I believe it was the year that they had sold, so May 1st, 1905, December 19th, after they had sold their ranch and fled, there are now three gringoes that robbed the Banco de la Cason, Argentina, in via Mercedes. So I don't know where they picked up the third white guy, but apparently there was a third white guy. Oh, what? Because they're gringoes. It's automatic that it's fucking Cassidy and Sundance.

Maybe this was a different trio But this is what Welsh people are white too Yeah true This is where they flee across the Andes into Chile So this is how they get into Chile eventually So this happens before Crazy fact

La Paz is La Paz the capital of Bolivia I don't know Okay I was listening something on the way here It's completely unrelated But La Paz which I think is the capital I want to say Bolivia Is the highest altitude capital of any country on earth.

Really? And if you're at sea level, the difference is, I think, two and a half kilometers, straight up. Wow. I would have figured it would have been maybe like Peru somewhere around the Mayan structures.

But that's not a capital. Yeah, true. So yeah, La Paz is insanely high. 11,800 feet. Oh, my God. It makes the earth thin and exertion difficult. for visitors.

So they were probably munching on coca leaves down in Bolivia like crazy. Oh yeah. Buddy. Bolivian Bam Bam. Bolivian bugger sugar. As you were talking about, well, Edda in Sundance were, I'm fully on board with the going to San Francisco because while they were gone, butch ends up taking, ironically enough, a job.

with a tin mine. Oh, I think that's Butch and Sundance. Concordia? Well, Sundance comes back because Butch is already working there. Okay, got you. So they're in this tin mine. And now instead of robbing the payroll, Butch is guarding the payroll. Yeah, they become basically like really successful guards.

Because they know exactly what the... Here's the other thing, too. They're probably not as good. These guys trying to rob it are not as good at Butch and Sunnard's. Sundance is they would be if they're robbing it. So they're anticipating everything. Pretty hard to pull a trick on a parent that's done the exact same things you did. But that's also somebody that is a recovering alcoholic at the liquor store.

Yep. And they're smelling that booze. And Sundance comes back. They both guard this money. And eventually they just, they can't hold back anymore. They're not going to be able to rob the tin mine that they're working at. by 1908 they ended up traveling and settling down in Santa Cruz, Bolivia.

And then on November 3rd, 1908, you have a courier that's headed to the San Vicente, or headed to San Vicente in Bolivia with the payroll for the Aramayo, Frank, Sia, Silver Mind. And the reason they do that is basically like November 4th is when they do this last, last big one, they were forced to flee that mining job because the wanted posters had started to begin circulating in Bolivia. Oh, that's a bad sign. Yeah. So that's what kind of made them decide.

It's like, well, we can't get legitimate jobs now anywhere in Bolivia. And if it's working in Bolivia, it's going to start working its way down even further to south. We can't really outrun this. So we need to do kind of one last huge heist. And then I guess just try to make it last. I don't really know what the plan was at that point. the owners of the tin mine get too wanted

poster they look at him and think why is Harry and Santiago what do they wanted for? They rob coal mines in the United States you say and we're tin mine and they're the ones that are guarding our somebody go check the payroll

Oh shit they're gone That was coal, this is 10 So this courier ends up getting hit by two gringos That they believe were Butch and Sundance This is where things get a little bit difficult for me. And this story is all pretty fantastic. I mean, we're talking about train robberies and bank robberies and all this.

So three days later, the pair were spotted in San Vicente at a boarding house. Now, the owner or the owner of the boarding house was also a miner at this 10, or at this San Vicente mine, this Aramio mine that they had just robbed the courier at. So it was in Bolivia, right? Mm-hmm. Okay, so they am pushed the courier. They still the payroll. I think it's worth 90,000 or roughly 90,000. This is like the biggest take they've had.

Pretty good score, yeah. At this point. But that much is going to spark instant, you know, retribution or ramifications. And they end up taking with them just to carry it, they have to take one of the mules. No. There's no way that this happens this way. You're telling me that this guy, this miner that works at this Aramayo mine, looks out and sees an ass from his mine and recognizes him and says,

hey, that donkey looks familiar. Where have I seen that before? He recognizes the brand. Even then, that's a pretty crazy thing to have. I get what you're saying. I get that, like, making the correlation of being like, these guys rob the mine, whatever. that in itself I don't think it ever entered this guy's head

that these guys had just robbed the mine of the payroll or whatever crime down in these areas was the same type of stuff I think that they were doing up in the west where it was cattle rustling horse rustling stealing shit just like that and if this guy is like I think they just stole this mule

from the mine not that they stole $90,000 worth of whatever. I think it's more so, hey, there's two gringoes who just stole this. All of a sudden, because he's not reporting that just to anyone, he goes to the actual like, Bolivian Army checkpoint,

who they're definitely the ones that are going to be aware because it was such a massive amount that the mining company immediately notified the military. Yeah, I could see that. My other gripe with this is, if they robbed this guy outside of San Vicente, Butch and Sundance don't seem like the pair that would then just go into town, right? No, because, okay, it was also November 4th when they did that.

And as they're moving, of course, they're moving through the area, probably getting as far as they can, but they're only going as fast as riding through Bolivia can take you, which that's some pretty crazy area. It's November 6th and 7th that it's kind of in San Vicente, that they're able to recognize this happening, like whoever catches them. And they only alert, like, there's a three-man detachment of Bolivian soldiers that are stationed nearby, and they end up having to call in, like, additional help.

Well, it was a cavalry regiment that was sitting outside of San Vicente, and they could have sent more, but they just peeled off three soldiers, and they said, hey, go talk to the local law enforcement and go round them up. And it was like a handful of guys that descended on the boarding house. Yeah. It just wasn't that much. They were still all armed. Yeah. Against guys that had at the time inside just had the revolvers. They had left their rifles and everything and their extra ammunition out with the horses and the mule or the donkey or whatever it was.

And they, again, this is also getting complacent. You'd think you would be on like high alert. I don't know if you're stopping by this town just to try to pick up a few last minute supplies before you make a long, long trek somewhere. But this was just, I don't. don't know if you what carelessness. Oh, where? These guys are, these guys are actual,

had started out as cattle and horse rustlers. They know about having to cover up a brand and everything. That was pointed out in the podcast that Bouch even had his own brand. That was made in a way that helped it cover up other ones. It was like a reverse E. Then a block of square. Yeah. With the other E coming off the other side.

So probably a pretty. Sizable one where he could turn it and get it. a certain way, but you, I just feel it like it's carelessness. And that's why I, they don't brand the donkey. They don't try to cover up that guy's brain. That's what I'm saying. But regardless, they end up getting trapped in this boarding house. There is an alternate reality, though.

This wasn't Bush and Sundance. Correct. So if it's Butch and Sundance getting sloppy, that's one thing. Also, it could have maybe not been Bush and Sundance. They could have found another couple guys, sold them a mule. and been off in the distance. That same night, November 6th, this is the first time that we have any mention

and probably the only time that there is basically notes on Butch killing somebody. Bush notices this cavalry officer walking by the window, he immediately draws his revolver, starts firing at the window, hits the guy, ends up killing that officer. The posse just begins unloading.

on this house, this boarding house, which they said that there were only two people in there. I'm assuming if it was a boarding house, there had to have been more than two people inside when the shooting started. Well, technically a boarding house could literally be just a house with one room that you board people in, or two rooms. Oh, okay.

Yeah, that makes sense. Like a hotel kind of cabinish type deal. But very small scale. I think, yeah. Butch and Sundance are kind of screwed because, as you pointed out, all they have inside their house is revolvers. And that's only going to take,

you so long. So Sundance puts on his Superman cape and somehow successfully makes it out to the horses. He ends up grabbing rifles and extra ammunition. And then on the scramble back into the boarding house ends up getting hit multiple times. Okay. So in the movie it's reversed because Bucch is like, I can't hit shit. You need to be the one shooting hands him his gun. And as he covers him, Sundance is kind of running behind him, covering him. Then as he's getting into cover, he's like, go now and I'll cover you. He gets out to the horses. And then how he gets back most of the way is he gets between the two horses and tucks his legs up and rides the horses back between him for cover. And then one of the horses gets shot. He goes down. He gets up and I think he takes one in the back. And then Sundance runs out like a beautiful mustache blonde unicorn that Robert Redford is and drags him back into the boarding house. But also at the same time, then taking a bunch of hits as well.

That sounds like a better story. Yeah. For sure, it paints a picture. from what we know the man who could have been Sundance may not have been Sundance was pulled back inside by

or by shit by Bush Cassidy not Paul, well maybe Paul Newman and as the pair continued to exchange gunfire they exchanged gunfire pretty well into the night they said kind of somewhere around the middle of the night and I heard this a couple

times I also heard a little minute I don't know how true it is that they heard three screams that came from inside the house that were then followed by two gunshots and then there was silence. The posse kept lobbing some ammunition for most of the night into the house, but it was mostly silent by morning. The posse ends up entering the house and as they enter the house, they see that there's a wounded man with a gunshot in his forehead.

And then they find the other man with a gunshot in his temple that's still holding his gun. So they assume that the two shots that they had heard in the middle of the night were Butch putting Sundance out of his misery. Yeah, they said he had been hit multiple times. And as far as like the screams going everything, I see that as being a situation in which, because like the nature of, and I'm not trying to like, I don't know, like, fantasify this or anything like that. But these are two like friends that have been through shit together for the last 10 years. They've had ranches together. They're best friends.

And they're sitting there. It's the end of the line. One of them sitting there dying. And as they're sitting there. I think the screams are a situation where it's not, because that doesn't make sense of just like, ah, ah,

ah, and then like the shots, I think it's a situation where the people that are there don't speak the language that Butch and Sundance are in there. And I think it's a situation where Sundance is looking at him. He's like, fucking do it. Like I'm in fucking pain.

Like, I'm fucking shoot me. And it's them not getting the translation and just being like, we heard loud noises or screams. coming from it. Yeah, I can also see it the other way, too, where it's Cassidy finally coming to a realization that this is the one place that they're not going to be able to escape from

after so many years of running from law enforcement in the United States and the Pinkertons and everybody else that they get pinned down because of kind of their own errors. They had to have realized at that point in time that they had to have done something that tip the cavalry off to come that way. You know, and I think it is. I think it's, he's got to. getting ready to do it and he's like you gotta do it man he's like i don't want to do it he's like

you got to fucking shoot me and he's getting ready to and he's like i love you and he's like i fucking love you he's like i fucking love you too and then he shoots they didn't know they've just known teamo it's a real woody and buzz well i haven't seen the new toy story but i assume it ends something like this probably it would have to right okay do you want to know how it ends in the movie how there's a charge out of the door yeah so in the movie and it's it's the famous it goes to a still So Sundance is fucked up after he went out to get to get Cassidy. And he comes in and they're both bleeding and everything. And as they're sitting there, Sundance is loading the guns.

And then he wraps up, Butch his hand, and then hands Butch the gun. They both have their two guns. He's like, you're ready? And they're both like delirious as shit. And they go out and they start firing as they go out. And then it freezes the image. And then in the background, you just hear it. boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom and it's like the army and the army literally has

about 30 guys there just with their rifles trained on it so they get to go out like a blaze of glory it leaves it up to interpretation though maybe it does because the interpretation could be that wasn't even them at all because what ends up happening is they get these two dead gringoes and they end up digging a couple of unmarked graves and pitched them in it and then somehow notifying the pinkertons later on oh yeah I think we got those guys pinkertons are like well we got a verify this. So do they end up sending someone down? I can't remember. This happened more than once to Butch. There was another time way before this in the United States where there was a new sheriff in town that had just killed an outlaw and trying to make a

name for himself had said that that was Butch Cassidy that was killed. And they held a funeral for him. Allegedly, Butch Cassidy actually attended and looked at what they thought was his dead body inside the casket. And eventually as the sheriff is bragging about it, they go and dig up the body and have one of the guards that was guarding him in Wyoming confirmed that it wasn't him. So from what I understand is

the Pinkerton's never really asked a question as to if this was Butcher Sundance, I don't know how they would have at that point in time because to get a Pinkerton down there, we're talking about decaying bodies at a time when they weren't. and balmed. These guys have gunshot wounds to the head. There's going to be no way that they're going to be able to really look at them and no. It's not like they could pull DNA at that point.

No, I mean, you'd have to just hope that they were in decent enough conditions that you could verify. Well, at the same time, what does it do for the Pinkertons if that wasn't Butch and Sundance? Then they've got to continue looking and devoted resources to them. And honestly, if they're not coming back to the states, it really doesn't concern them. Yeah. And then also, so, I mean, there. are theories on their survival and everything like that. Chances are that probably was them down to Bolivia. But there's prominent theories, claims Cassidy escaped Bolivia.

He fled to Paris for minor plastic surgery, eventually returns the United States, settles it down in Spokane, Washington, gets married, works for decades as a machinist under the name William T. Phillips until he dies in 1937. One for Sundance says that one of the most highly publicized theories in, Utah suggests that he escaped a shootout, slipped back to the U.S. again, eventually adopting the name William Henry Long, lived out his life in Utah, died in 1936, and they point to physical resemblances and matching timelines, but again, these are just theories. I'd like to put forth another one.

Okay. You just robbed $90,000, right? Mm-hmm. You roll into town. Three guys from the military show up. Hey, guys. money yeah you kick out 10 gs to each of those guys and everyone just parts ways and if some anybody asks you shot the shit out of this tiny mud whatever it was roomed hut and everything like that

you killed us you buried us into mark graves that doesn't hurt it also doesn't hurt to think that they might have just pulled into san vicente handed off the donkey in a thousand bucks and went on their merry way with 89,000 and just continued on. They found two white guys, two fall guys. They didn't even dig it up and find bodies. They just found some bones. The bones could have belonged to, they had no way of testing it. Well, this is the tough part is they've allegedly gone back since.

And I don't know if this is like one of the history shows. But again, how do you determine where the spot is? They were unmarked graves a century later. Yeah. They said that they had been able to pull DNA from these two bodies that they had found, but it was inconclusive as to if it was Butch and Cassidy, or Butch and Sundance, and at the same time, you can say, well, if it's inconclusive, there's still a chance it wasn't them, or there's more of a chance that it wasn't them.

Not the fact that these bodies have been sitting, rotting away, and two unmarked graves, it could have really been anybody. Yeah, and I'm not saying that they survived. Like I said, chances are what happened. The story is what actually happened. But there's 90,000 reasons that something else could have very easily happened. somebody that's working for the army that's making fuck what a thousand maybe two thousand dollars a year

if they're lucky and you just walk out there and you just give them a little jingle jingle with one of those fat coin pouches and you're like did you really see us you did see us you shot the shit out of us and you buried us over there in unmarked graves you stop firing from your revolver and just start chucking silver coins at them

until they stop shooting eventually what is it uh... blata or blota or bloma yeah silver lead. It also helps the legend go even a bit further because somehow what a Butch Cassidy's sisters, I guess it's because there was probably 13 years in between them. What a Butch Cassidy's sisters was actually on the set of Redford and Paul Newman shooting the movie. And she had come out with a book that had basically laid out the whole plan, the whole fact that Cassidy had returned to Utah.

and even though his mother had died, who he had always felt a sharp pain in his soul because he had disappointed his mother, came back and ate dinner with the family, and then went up to Washington, and there were reports from everywhere around Circlesville where they lived that around this day in 1930, there was a procession that led from the Parker Ranch

to a burial site where they had buried this body, but when they had spoken, to the family. Nobody in the family had died, so there's a chance he's buried there, there's a chance he's buried in Washington. It's a brilliant strategy, because if you say that the guy's buried in enough places, who's going to be able to find it?

I like to imagine that Sundance made it back, found Eta, that's why there's no record, because they took off for Europe or did some shit like that. Yeah, there's so many other places that they could have gone and hid. It's... This has got to be like where Thelman-Louise gets its, right?

I'm... Well, I think Tell them Louise were real people. Were they? Am I thinking of Bonnie and Clyde? I think they were real. They were definitely real people. No, no, they're fictional lead characters

from a movie. I could have sworn that. But I definitely think, if you think about it, it's a female Butch and Sundance. Going out and Blazers, aren't they the ones

that drive off the cliff? Huh? Aren't they the ones that drive off the cliff in the end? And that's their version of the shootout because the cops are right behind them too. There's so many modern adaptions that have come off of this as far as just Western movies.

And it's so weird to think that the next generation of criminals that comes after this, not super fast, but also within a decade, you get John Dillinger. You get the formation of the FBI under that prick, J. Edgar Hoover. When do we run into Capone? He was Prohibition Time. so you have him working right around Chicago in the 20s. This happens in 1908.

Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, that shows you how it went from the Wild West to fucking Tom and Guns on Michigan Boulevard, man, or Michigan Ave or whatever. You're getting away on relay horses to jumping in Model T's and cruising down the road. It's all just right at the turn of it. Wild times. I know, right? Wild bunch. Wild times for the wild bunch.

For sure. It makes me interested now. I mean, we're going to definitely have to delve back deeper into the Wild West because it sounds like there's a whole lot that happened before this. Yeah, exactly. But to see the turn, we can go two ways. We can head towards the Dillinger's and the mobster times, or we can head back further into the Jesse James era.

Yeah, exactly. Either way. All right, man. Well, hopefully you guys are looking forward to that, and we'll catch on the next one. Peace.