Historically High - Lawrence of Arabia

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

During World War One, a British soldier name Thomas Edward Lawrence or T.E. Lawrence found himself in his dream position, smack dab in the middle of Arabia helping to lead the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Turks. Lawrence of Arabia as he came to be known fought not only the Ottomans but also for the independence of the Arab people, even to the chagrin of his British superiors. He seemed at times fearless with his tactics for war, surprise attacking railways, crossing nearly impassable deserts to attack enemies where they least expected it. Join us for a lesson on this controversial historical figure. Support the show Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

So I'm going to start recording right now. I don't have anything really for a lead-in on this one because I was trying to figure out how to move into it. But researching this topic, and this is one that you're not really familiar with that I get a kind of, I get a learn you up on it. So much interconnectivity within the world of calling back to things we've talked about, people being alive at the same time. There are these historical figures that even being alive at the same time, not only that, but just like being. interactive with each other. People coming along, kind of like when we were talking about

in the Churchill episode, you feel like sometimes there are maybe people that feel like they're born into something and by some miracle of trajectory, they find themselves in the positions that they need to be in in that specific time doing what they should,

you know, what they're doing. I mean, we talked about that in the Churchill that that's kind of a rare thing, but when you get detailed and you hear stories and everything about people that find themselves in those situations, it almost feels like what they would call like a Hollywood script. Like it's almost too clear-cut, you know, the espionage, the good versus evil. It sounds like a spy war thriller and all this kind of stuff that someone would write down,

but it's actually based upon events that happened very similarly to maybe how they're documented, if not outright, exactly how they happened. I'm going to teach you about Thomas Edward Lawrence, also known as T.E. Lawrence, but more widely known throughout the world is Lawrence of Arabia. I'm excited to hear about this dude because, like I said, A, I know nothing about him. Tell me your initial thoughts. What, when I told you I was going to teach about Lawrence of Arabia, I want to know what first popped into your head. I know what you're doing here. It's okay if it's a little stereotypical. I don't appreciate you set me up to say this. But yeah, I don't know if our listeners are familiar with the epic saga of Deuce Bigelow, the male jiggleau.

But when you told me about Lawrence of Arabia, the first thing I thought of was the... Antoine. Antoine, yeah, the guy whose apartment... Played by... I think his name is Odette Fair. But then I think I steered you in the direction where what gave you this thought is you saw him in the mummy. Yeah. And he was wearing essentially, like, the, he was essentially, like, part of, like, a desert tribe that was supposed to, like, protect against the mummy. But I could see why you would then kind of picture that.

And I full on saw, um, I did a reverse Jesus because when you said Lawrence of Arabia, I immediately thought that it was, yeah, Middle Eastern man. As you, and here's the thing is, like, he didn't have, he wasn't known as, like, Lawrence of Arabia during the time that all of the things he's known for. happen. The name comes along essentially after after like his exploits get out. And it's crazy how like how he becomes like famous and well known. It's it's the weirdest fucking set of circumstances. Well just from what you said, something that this doing this podcast has really like led me to believe is I, God doesn't really play a big role in my life. But somehow people like Lawrence of Arabia are almost like divinely put exactly like we were talking about at the beginning with Churchill.

Like, it's almost design or divine inspiration that these people show up. There's an intelligent design to it. Yes. Yeah. So, and what's crazy, too,

so Lawrence, it was his last name. So it was like, that would be like, yeah, like, if his name was John Smith, it'd be like,

it wouldn't be John of Arabia. It's like Smith of Arabia. So it's kind of weird that they phrased it like that. But so kind of start at the beginning. So T. Lawrence, I'm just going to refer to him as Lawrence for the rest of the podcast. because it's easier. So he was born in Wales in like August 1888 and he was born at a wedlock.

Basically his father already had a family and his mother, her name was Sarah Juner. She was what they call the Baroness, basically like the private tutor or teacher for the kids. He ends up knocking her up. High class milkmaid. Oh yeah. And then they run away together and he is actually the second of their children. and I believe they have five total. So he has three, I think, younger brothers. This is the plot of beer fest.

Oh, yeah. But the father goes with them. He doesn't stay with like, and he's like a sir. His name is Sir Thomas Chapman. And so he has like a castle and like land and all this. He ditches that stuff and runs off with Sarah. Must be true love. Yeah, must be.

Sarah must have been. Give up an estate. Come on now. Call me Baroness may do something to a man. I don't know. Governance. That's like some like dominatrix. Like what do you want me to do now? Governance.

Yeah. So in 1896, the family moves to Oxford. What do you think of when you think of Oxford? College. Yeah. So Oxford is the name of the town and Oxford College is within the town. I thought when people just refer to Oxford, it was just strictly the college. But there's a town around it.

Makes sense, I guess. So they moved there. He goes to this place called Jesus College from 1906. seven to 1910. Not really creative. And it's like, where do you go? He's like, what was the, the, um, mascot? We should probably not say what we think the mascot might have been.

The crosses? It might have just been, it was just a big circular stone and they just moved it three feet. And everyone was like, yeah. Well, their basketball team would run out of the tunnel. Their football, rugby team had a solid running game. Um, so he goes to college. And they didn't get nailed down too much. Well,

with, don't. From 1910 to 1914, this is where as a kid, he used to travel around, from like the age of 15, he would bike all around the area and all around England,

basically looking at like and surveying like the area in the country, researching monuments, all this stuff from like antiquity because Rome used to have a big present like in England. Yeah. So he was already like as a young kid

really interested in like archaeology and ancient like cultures and ruins and everything. So 1910 is when he actually graduates and he worked as an archaeologist, like right out of college for the British Museum, coincidentally enough in Ottoman Syria. So this is like at a time also like pre-World War, this is like full-blown colonialism too where like British, the British Empire has, it's literally an empire still.

Presence in the Philippines, Australia, India, New Zealand, all that kind of stuff. So they send him down to do like an Arborchurchase. archaeological dig or something in Ottoman Syria, and he's basically able to kind of get a lay of the land. Of course, he's not seeing all of it, but that's like his first introduction. He starts to get used to the customs, essentially of like the people in Syria and kind of that Arabian area. I bet he stuck out, too, with as much colonialism was going on. Dude, he's blonde-haired, blue-eyed. He's five-foot-five. Like, he's not at all what you would like think of for like, uh, he, and the thing is, he's like strategically gifted.

He's not like a great warrior. He's not this guy that's like he's not fucking Rambo with like the M50. Just like he's a planner. Then this is why he's so effective because he knows the strengths and weaknesses of and I'll get to the kind of how he analyzes that of the forces that he's leading

or kind of helping to lead. So in the summer of when he was going to college, during summer breaks, because he'd already seen everything around like fucking England, he, one of the summers he biked through France, like bike, bike through France researching medieval castles. Then the next summer in July and August, he cycled 2,200 miles through France in the Mediterranean

and back researching more French castles. He had this huge, like, hard on for, like, the Crusades. So he was going and, you know, seeing all these Crusader castles. Summer of 1909, he takes a solo. three-month walking tour of Crusader castles in Syria. He traveled a thousand miles on foot. So like as a

between like 18 and like 21, 22, he's literally just like completely traveling all of Europe and traveling down into Syria and the Arabian Peninsula and all that into the Ottoman Empire and basically doing stuff as far as like an archaeologist and everything.

Well, and you said he was doing this in his spare time? Yeah, during the summers. So like he wasn't getting paid to do any of this. This was strictly for personal gain, basically. I mean, he probably knew that it would help him in the field that he was going into, but it was like a passion project. A hundred percent passion. This was, this was his thing, man. Like, he wasn't, he was, he knew he probably wasn't, he had a, he was intellectually gifted. He may not have been physically gifted and everything, but I mean, he still kind of was, he was in

shape, but not like you would, you know. Doesn't matter what kind of shape you're in that, that, that Arabian sun's going to tear up that fair skin. So, right, this was like the summer before he graduated. So he ends up graduating first class honors after writing a thesis based on his travels. So he was able to say how like pre-civilization architecture had influenced like Ottoman architecture, like war type architecture, something like that. Basically, very well-written paper, first class honors. And basically while he's in the Middle East, he's picking up all his experience. He's kind of learned the language.

He learns the customs. He kind of learns the structure about who's in charge, different tribes and everything, because they weren't all united. There's a ton of different, like, religious factions, tribes that believe in different things or have different customs. So he's kind of learning all this. That area to this day is still kind of up for grabs in the same way. So it just, it's been a historical thing that even he saw. Yeah.

And then, like, in 1910, he gets an offer from this guy named DJ Hogarth, who is basically like a very well-known archaeologist. to basically come and be like, not really an apprentice, but come and work for him as an archaeologist, again, in Syria at this place called Kharkimish. And while he's there, like kind of on his way down there, he stops and studies Arabic and basically becomes completely fluent in Arabic. So there's, yeah. And while he's there, he also kind of gains more experience with like Middle Eastern leadership practices, like who's in charge, who commands who, conflict resolution. because while he's down there at some of the archaeological digs,

the Germans are actually trying to build like a railway through Syria because oil at this point and they're just pulling this shit out of the desert. So to get all that kind of stuff back. So they run into disputes essentially when they're trying to use certain areas to run the railroad through

that there's archaeological sites or like historical sites. So nothing came about as far as like actual like arm conflict or anything, but he had to essentially know how to resolve issues, conflict resolution between different tribes and the Germans between themselves as the archaeologists and the Germans.

So he's just literally like gaining tools this entire time. And in 1914, the British military actually uses Lawrence as kind of in his role as an archaeologist, as a smokescreen to survey this place called the Negev Desert. So because Lawrence has been down here, he's a recognized archaeologist. British, you know, Britain kind of sees the writing on the wall that, you know, war is going to brew in Europe. At this point, the British are in control of, like, Cairo and Egypt. And so the Ottoman Empire, there's this stretch called the Ngev Desert that separates

essentially the Ottoman Empire from Egypt and Cairo. They send Lawrence out there, and they're like, we want you to, under the guise of doing an archaeological survey, basically gather all of the information we need about this stretch of land, so we can traverse it very effectively. and know how to cut off enemy if they try to cross it. Because the only way for them to reach Cairo would be for the Ottomans to walk across this stretch. So Lawrence goes through and he pretty much analyzes all of it,

mountain ranges, watering water sources, to basically give the British all of this information. So he's doing like tactical already like spy stuff for them. So he was, but this was like his first introduction to the military. Yes. Before that it was just strict like government, historian, archaeological work. Working mostly like for museums.

or like the British Museum. But this is like his first foray into what he becomes. Yeah, exactly. So at this point, Lawrence is also kind of visiting different areas around there. So he visits a place called Aqaba and that's going to come back into play during one of his most well-known. The movie pretty much like three-quarters of the movie is fucking dedicated to this event that takes place in Akebaugh. And then this place called Showback, which is not far from Petra Callback. Sounds familiar.

He ends up going back after his career, and I think he gets to see Petra. I hope so. I hope everybody gets to see Petra. I want to see Petra. Yeah. So finally, World War I kicks off, August, 1914, and he waits to enlist. He doesn't enlist right away, right as it kicks off. He actually waits till October.

And then before the end of the years, even up, he gets summoned by Dun, dun, dun, done, now lieutenant commander, DJ Hogarth. Oh. And he's going to be. he made the transition as well. Yeah. And I mean, if he was a notable archaeologist and familiar with certain areas, it would make sense to enlist that person and be like, you're going to help us command this section because you know the area.

So DJ Hogarth, he gets put in charge of what they call the new Arab Bureau, and it's an intelligent unit in Cairo. Intelligent unit in Cairo. And Lawrence gets sent there like December 15th in 1914. So they're kind of preparing for World War I. as it kicks off and everything, kind of finding out what the Ottomans are going to do. Again, they're separated, Cairo separated by the Mediterranean. They kind of control that area because the British Navy is the strongest Navy.

They controlled the Suez Canal. That was a big thing that kind of led them to try to strike an alliance with what they basically called the Arab Nationalist Movement. The Arab Nationalist Movement, the Ottoman Empire essentially controlled, like what was Syria and a large portion of the Middle East. So all of these tribes were essentially under what they considered the yoke, which it was, they had a really horrible treatment of the Ottoman Empire. They wanted independence. And I think they saw this as an opportunity where they were like, okay, well, we can make an alliance with the British. And then once we're able to assist them in driving out the Ottomans and defeating the Ottomans in the war, then we can have these lands that were or should be ours, these Arabs. speaking lands, those are going to be ours independently, no longer to control the Ottomans.

And so they were in contact with basically the head guy, his name was Sharif, and Sharif is a title. And then it was Sharif Hussein. Not Abdur Rahim. No. He was what they call the Amir of Mecca. He's like the head guy. Basically, he is the steward of the holy cities, Mecca and Medina and the other ones in that region.

Basically, meaning he's, for lack of a better term, because they're under Ottoman rule, he's kind of the king. So he's... He's kind of the king of the Arabs. He's underneath the Ottoman rule, but he's not a puppet. Which is why he can't consider him that. He's a steward of the holy cities because you can't have a king within another empire. They're not going to allow the Arabs to have their own king when they're actually under the rulership of the Ottomans.

But he's the steward. But he's the stuarting purposes. Yes, he is their leader. Yeah, he's their de facto. The Arab national movement, he's their de facto leader. But they're still... like loosely, like they're still warring factions between them. They're still land grabs.

So they're loosely associated, but there's still a lot of... I'm sure some of the factions were somewhat warring with each other. I don't know how much, I think they all had a kind of their areas and everything. But there were still where, like, when they would get into contact, there were still definitely disagreements. That was one of the challenges that, like, Lawrence found when he was trying to essentially build an army out of these, these Arab different Arab tribes. They're united name but not in practice.

So basically the British were like, listen, if you guys want to organize an Arab uprising against the Ottomans, then we'll work with you to go ahead and make sure you guys get your independence. Well, here's the big thing is the British really didn't have a lot to lose because by keeping the Ottomans occupied by fighting the Arabs, they were basically protecting themselves from the Ottomans being able to come down into Cairo. Yeah, what's good for the goose is good for the anger. That's exactly what it was. they were protecting their interest in the Suez Canal because that was the only waterway for them to get stuff essentially without going all the way around Africa. It could bring stuff right into the Mediterranean, help reinforce Cairo, kind of move their ships around.

And that's weeks of time. Yes. One of the big things. So the Sharif wanted a guarantee from the British of an independent Arab state that include what they considered, and I'm sorry if I'm butchering these names. I apologize. The Hajjahs, which included within it, Mecca and Medina. Basically, I believe that was what they considered the province that included all of their holy cities, was considered the hijazz. It was like their version of like the Holy Land.

Also Syria and Mesopotamia. And on the British side, like we just talked about, they got out of it having the interest in the Suez Canal. But this caused an issue because the French were like, hey, um... The fucking French, man. They're like, hey, you know, we're fighting against the Ottomans and the Germans too. and we really like that oil shit that you guys are starting to pull at Syria. So they basically were talking to the British

and they're like, yeah, this might not work for us because we want Syria and the Arabs want it. Well, basically in kind of a shitty circumstance, there was a situation where a guy in British Parliament and a guy in whatever fucking French parliament is called got together and created this thing called the Sykes-Picott-Picot agreement. And basically, it awards a large portion of Syria to France.

And that was being negotiated without knowledge of anyone in Cairo, like any of like British officers in Cairo or anything. So the people that were in communication with essentially like the Sharif didn't know this was going on. It hadn't been finalized yet. But throughout the course of the war, this thing gets short up. I have so many problems with that. I know.

And this is just the first that I'm hearing of this. but why in the world would you care about somebody who's already like actively fighting the Ottomans wanting something else because what are they going to do? It's not like they're going to be like, okay, we'll stop fighting. Like, the French have no leverage. And the Sharif that you were talking about have all the reason to protect this and to get that land because they're the ones that are going to be doing the work when France is just like, oh, we won't part of Syria too.

Yeah, at the same time, I completely agree with you on that. thinking about it from the asshole's perspective of being like, well, what's good for France? Also, if we can work this out with France, that includes maybe trade deals with France. France is a lot closer to us. They're going to be offering us more. Plus, if France controls Syria, maybe we can get oil from France. Okay. Yeah, it's, you're going to be paying a tax higher from the Sharia.

They're looking out for, it's fucking colonialism, man. The British are just looking out. The only reason that they're trying to use the Arab revolt is because it'll protect essentially their interest right at the moment without them having to then dedicate an entire section of the British army to that. They're not using their resources. Yeah, they have to supply them with some equipment and everything,

but it's not their manpower. They want to be down in Egypt too. Exactly. That's where they're handling their shit in Egypt. Well, another part of it too was India apparently had a problem. Now, as a British, well, and that's also because it's like a British protector or province or whatever, and India wanted Mesopotamia for growing food. so for like the granaries or whatever they consider that area.

Yeah. So there's people just wanting to fucking like get their hands on everything here. So basically. The Sharif are going to get a raw deal here, aren't they? Well, when they find out about it, like Lawrence doesn't know about it. The Sharif doesn't know about it like a lot of people in Cairo, like officers. And of course, they're not going to say shit if it's going to throw off this alliance. So basically, Larry, he's hanging out at the Arab Bureau.

He's making maps. He's printing bulletins. He's interviewing prisoners sometimes. and Lawrence through like his travels, he's like a hundred percent like pro-independent Arab Syria. So he wants them to all have their independence. So kind of shit or get off the pot time happens in October of 1915. And the Sharif is like, listen, what's it fucking going to be, bitch?

Are you going to agree to our terms or do I need to go back to the Ottomans? Because if he turns around and goes back to the Ottomans, he's like, you're either going to give me what I want or I'm just going to keep myself in the situation that I'm in. And maybe if I do help the Ottomans kick you guys out of Egypt and that becomes part of their empire, maybe we get a little bit of land too and we can arrange for that for helping them out. It ain't going to be the same size chunk, but it should still be something. They have a big fucking bargaining chip. And so the guy that is, and this was also right after or during the Gallipoli campaign. And remember we talked about that and that was the one that Churchill planned.

And because maybe some stuff got leaked out about it, end up turned into like a big failure. and that was Churchill's big knock. Okay, yeah. So at this point, Britain's already kind of reeling from like this big operation that kind of didn't go their way and what's a defeat and a failure.

No shit. So now they feel kind of, see how I think everything's fucking connected? It all is, dude. And again, this podcast has done that so much where we'll be researching something else and be like, why do these names look so familiar? It's like, oh, because we told this story

three months ago, but from a completely different perspective. Exactly. So there's some pressure on them. And so basically the British reply, yep, all looks all right. You know, I'm sure we can make it happen. Maybe make some changes, hey, but let's not let that, you know, let's hash that stuff out later once we take care of the Ottomans, right?

We got bigger fish to fry. Yeah, we're good here. So in spring 1916, Lawrence has sent to assist, like, relieving this siege of this place called Cut. And basically by, it's kind of like beta testing, he's trying to create a local Arab uprising or bribe the Ottomans. So it ends up not. going too well, kind of determine a failure, but he gained some experience of what not to do

in that situation about kind of how to gather local forces and kind of motivate them. So the real Arab revolt, that actually takes place and starts what they consider in June 1916. And after kind of a few initial successes, like a few surprise attacks, it kind of gets bogged down. The Ottomans at this point are a more technically advanced army. Their rifles are better, you have these scattered Arab tribes that are essentially just kind of new to having firearms, they're firing off horseback. Their strengths essentially aren't informing a line and fighting them like that. They're guerrilla fighters. They're used to desert warfare. Exactly. They disappear after they, you know, strike and, you know, they're not taking casualties of trying to

just stand up in a fair fight, which is why they're able to later be successful. But during these initial skirmuses, they have no idea how to fight the Ottomans. Sometimes they overwhelm, overwhelm them and surprise them and kind of beat them that way. But as soon as the Ottomans figure out what's up, they're, you know, they're taking some losses just because they're not as effective. This sort of feels like a Native American-American type situation. It has some very close similarities. So finally, Lawrence is sent to Hijaz on kind of an intelligence gathering mission. And one of his jobs is to interview the Sharif Hussein's, his three sons. Shari Fussein is, isn't going to essentially, they need to keep him protected.

He's the head guy. So one of his sons, they're looking for someone that can basically kind of be, not the field commander, but the one that's going to handle all of the liaisoning between like the Arab revolt and everything and be kind of their go-to guy, the guy that can make the decisions on the father's behalf. So the three sons were Ali, Abdullah, and Faisal. Faisal. Was he from a different family?

Nope. Nope. Ali and Abdul sound very similar. Faisal. I know, I thought that too. That's a new one. They're all princes. So Prince Faisal, they determined that he's the best to lead.

He's the most even killed. I don't know he wasn't the oldest. He might have been second or even the youngest. That's a slap in the face. Well, the thing is, is he's the most even killed, the most educated, the most willing to kind of work with them and the most willing to kind of, the smartest for the job, basically out of these three candidates. I'm probably the other two were all right.

Probably a guy that would give a shit the most. Yeah, probably someone that also, like, he wasn't in line, or perhaps wasn't in line initially to be the next Sharif or whatever. So in that sense, like, I think he went to, like, schools outside of, like, Syrian Arab, that area to, like, study and everything as well. Like, he was, he was a really educated guy. So, and that's the thing, too, as I think there's this misconception when we're talking about, like, it's a racist thought. about like the Arab revolts and everything like that, that these people were somehow like savages.

And I think that's how the Ottomans looked down on them. There were lesser people. You don't rule over someone that you consider to be your superior or your equal. Like it's, you know, their subjugated state is basically what they are. Well, and even beyond that point, the Sharif's son is probably the one that's in the best position to travel outside the country and learn from different places. The youngest one that doesn't have that responsibility. Yeah.

But just as far as like... It's a Prince Harry and William's situation. William has to stay and learn how to do all the shit. Harry gets to go fucking party and bang American actresses. Yep. Yeah, he gets to taste of chocolate. So Lawrence is basically done doing his job there. That's what he was sent to do.

So originally this guy named Newcomb was supposed to be like the British liaison on to Faisal. And he ends up getting delayed. And so Lawrence is still there and they're like, okay, you need to step in and just fill in this position. just until Newcomb gets there and then he'll take over his liaison. So during this time, Lawrence is kind of like, gets filled in. He helps Faisal come up with basically a plan to threaten the railways in Syria from like the Ottomans and the Germans.

Well, at the same time, like protecting Arab positions and like the holy citizens and being able to draw. So like strategically, because he knows the area and he knows the customs, he already knows like the things that are important to these people. And again, he's like, he's in a situation. where he's like fully on their side. Yeah, he's plugged into the community. He knows what's going on. And I think to a degree, he had their interests,

ahead of British interests and everything, because he saw them in a position where they needed help more. And he was going to do what he needed. I think during his travels, he really earned, like, a respect for these people. Oh, yeah. And just, like, a reverence for them and everything.

He saw past the racist thoughts that people have about... He really did. And so... There are people. Some of the actions that he takes here throughout his, like, journey and his story and everything. he's doing so essentially at the highest benefit of the Arab people.

And then essentially because he's doing a good job and he's still winning victories, British Command can't say shit. Even though the way he's positioning is to try to give the Arabs an advantage once the war ends, he tries to get them into a position where they're holding certain places when the war ends to where they have a bigger bargaining chip. It's just strategic war. Correct. And it's not like his commanders, like a couple of his commanders, They fucking love him because all he's given them is good news.

And at the same time, maybe he's going after a city that essentially the British necessarily don't want the Arabs to have. But he's stopping the Ottomans. He's pushing them back and he's keeping them from threatening other British forces and everything. So he's doing his job and they love him because they don't have to really invest a whole lot of men, if any at all. Maybe I miss this or maybe it hasn't come to fruition yet. but what did the Sharif and the Arab people feel once they found out about the backdoor deals with France and India?

Okay, so that's still coming? It's coming, yep. I just want to let you know that that was something being discussed at that time. Just so you know they're getting ready to fuck these people over. That's, yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah. So basically, like,

Lawrence is getting ready to leave as Newcoms arriving. They're getting ready to make the swap. And Faisal is like, uh, uh, uh, no, no, no, no. He's like, Lawrence is staying. Is our boy. Yeah, this is my boy. I like what this guy's doing. They had a respect for each other.

I think Faisal was very impressed about his knowledge of their culture and that felt that he was legitimately trying to assist them and that he was the best person that would have, be honest with him and have the Arab interest at heart. They have that mutual respect as opposed to somebody that's just rolling in there thinking that. I'm sure it also helps that he also is. was the one that kind of selected Faisal and kind of was part of making that call where they were going to use and everything.

So, and I mean, Lawrence's biggest contributions, they were in the area of strategy and liaisoning, liaising, something like that. But he did actually participate in some battles. And all in all, I think they said it was around like 12 battles that he actually participated in.

A lot of them were, they would do raids on the railroad tracks and everything. I don't know how I actually. accurate. So the movie, of course, takes artistic liberties and everything and focuses on a very small portion of like what Lawrence did, but they would destroy railways, but I think sometimes they would try to do that when there was a train coming. So it would derail the train. They could rate it for supplies. If they need to take prisoners and everything like that, they would do it that way. So they did a lot of like blowing up like railroads and railroad cars. He actually on like

November 7th, he received a few wounds when they actually blew up a train and he got like wounded within like a firefight that happened afterward. That's so wild to think about that that was like how these things were sent back then. Because like it's attacking a train is like the closest thing that we'll ever get to like living out in the wild. Yeah. Like when you're hunting or trapping or anything like that like you're setting up snares where you see paths. That's basically what robbing a train is because you know that something has to come down those. tracks like there's no mystery as to win it's just you're waiting so yeah and this is at a time when

like they're wiring explosives and running the wheel out that has the wire behind a dune covering it up and then when the train gets hitting the plunger like fucking wily coyote style yeah and yeah and hoping the train doesn't have enough time to stop before it hits to the fucking destroyed track and knocks it off it's just such a crazy thing i know so desert warfare man so they're doing these smash and grab operations. There was this larger battle in January of 1918 called the Battle of Tophila through kind of his actions. I don't know if they were strategic or if he actually took part in the battle or what he did

exactly, but he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order and he got promoted to lieutenant colonel. And he keeps getting promoted throughout like this entire time. Yeah. There was kind of a, and they covered this in the movie on September 26th in 1918 they came upon him and i think it was close to fuck i can't remember the number of guys he had with him but they came upon this like fleeing basically like caravan of like ottoman soldiers well they had literally just went through a village and killed everybody in the village and so like they roll up behind these ottomans

and basically one of the guys i think i don't know this was i believe in his book one of the guys was from that village and literally charge the Ottomans by himself on horseback. And this is like a combination of like horses and camels. He gets shot down by like a firing line. And then Lawrence is just like fucking charge. And like everyone charges. And they basically massacre this entire group of like fling Ottomans.

And did you ever mention that this is a vulnerable moment for me when I asked this? What exactly were the Ottomans? So the Ottomans were. the terminology and this will be more clarified in our World War one episode the Ottoman Turks I believe they were people that were kind of

of like more like Turkish like descent and everything but I think Turkey was in there so I think Ottoman Turks may have only applied to like them but the Ottomans were also a portion of like Russia as well Hmm So would Lawrence have been able to

like communicate as far as... I'm sure he knew like their language and everything, yeah. So there would have been like... He probably would have run onto like Ottoman bands of soldiers and been able to communicate with them. Yeah. Every time he met it was just war on. I'm sure it was more so the latter and everything.

I mean, I'm sure he was able to talk to prisoners, but the thing is is because like Syria and that whole area just was in the Ottoman Empire that people that lived that were Ottomans fighting on that side probably lived so close to like the Syria area that they spoke like at least some dialect that that they could understand. So when they run

into each other they're probably less in the camp of taking prisoners as they are to just wiping them out. I don't think they have very many places to put prisoners. This is the fucking desert man. Resources are scarce. I think this is more of a no quarter

given. Or if we're letting you go, you're marched in the other direction into the fucking desert and we're heading that way, you're not going to follow us. Conflict is just to the death. Here's your choice. Like, we can kill you now or the desert can kill you in like a day. Take your fucking pick. Huh. It's interesting. It's not really a normal war thing that you see that it's just like to the finish.

Or to the retreat, I guess. Because if you're not taking prisoners, you're not trying to like save anybody. No. No. And the people in this revolt, they were not kind to, Ottomans because they'd been under their fucking subjugation for so fucking long. So there's this guy at some point. His name is Lowell Thomas. He's an American actor, broadcaster, and traveler. I think he's mostly like a broadcaster journalist stuff.

He brings over a, and I want to say he works for, it might have been like the Chicago Tribune or a newspaper in Chicago. He comes over as like a war correspondence and basically is able to get himself embedded with Lawrence. So he literally has like tons of pictures of all this kind of stuff. This is where you get like the pictures of Lawrence when he's at some point the Arabs he's with present him with his own set. They take his clothes and present him with his own set of like robes. Really?

Yes. And that's and they're white. So like if you see him in pictures, he's got like the white robes. He's got the gold. What's the thing that wraps around to keep their like the covering on their head? Oh, this is going to sound ignorant. I think women, it's called a hijab. That's what the whole covering is.

But the men wear that ring thing that keeps it kind of tight to their. skull a little bit. There's a T word that I don't want to use. Yeah. So anyway, so he's wearing like a gold one of those. They present him with these clothes. And so that's where, that's when this, you know, Lowell Thomas guy starts kind of sending this stuff back. People are starting to be like, who, who's this like blonde-haired blue-eyed white guy? It begins the legend. It's so, it's so like shocking to see this. Like, it's something people have never seen before. So that's how a lot of this stuff, like, will eventually come to light with what Lauren of Arabia has done. He is an odd looking dude in these robes.

Yeah. It's very striking. It's weird, huh? It looks like someone going to a fucking, like, frat party. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. It almost looks like he's taking some liberties.

Yes. The man that plays him in Lawrence of Arabia. Peter O'Toole. They put a lot of makeup on old Peter to make him darker. Oh, yeah. That's a weird move. Well, no, he would also be on the sun all the time. But for the movie.

For the movie, I'm guessing. But, like, yeah, I don't. know what his his complexion was. I'm assuming being out in the sun that long. He looks dark. He has some sun on the old face. Yeah, he looks dark in the picture of the movie. But, so the thing about Lawrence is

if you were to put any other British officer, they would probably try to adopt British tactics and wouldn't be successful. They wouldn't be able to recognize strengths and weaknesses of the different tribes. And I don't know how much of a term this encompasses for everyone, but there was a term that the British

use. It was called the Bedouin. and the Bedouin were like the people that lived within the area this like Arab area and so like it was they called them the Bedouin fighters Why does this sound like Star Wars? I don't know this is just the term man Is there something that sounds like that in Star Wars? Bedouine? Tattoine?

Yeah But this is real. So he knew the strengths basically. They were great guerrilla fighters, hit and run tactics, sabotaging supply lines. That's what they excel that. So their weaknesses is they didn't work well together. because there were so many different tribes and everything, exactly.

He, uh, some of his stuff, he said they were too individualistic to be able to take large orders, which meant like staying in formation, complex, like formation, pins or moves, all that kind of stuff. They were too, you couldn't, they would, you know, try to change it up on the go and everything. They'd want to be the heroes. Mm-hmm. And so that was, and so he was able, though, to have them fight together because they were doing these smash and were like, he didn't have to issue commands. It was just like, fucking charge and kill these guys.

and his big focus was on like capturing like the holy cities like Medina because again like I said he understood that he may not have known about that Sikes-Pecot agreement yet but he understood that like oh yeah the British he knows what the fucking British are he's British he's like they're going to try to pull something so again he was trying to get them in possession of all of these strategic positions to either hold those positions or use them as bargaining chips to keep more of the land well like you said I think he knows the cultural significance to the people of those cities. Oh, yeah, definitely.

Mecca and Medina, I mean, Medina's second only in like holy sites to Mecca itself. So he's not only doing them a favor, but he sees them as bargaining chips along the way. Exactly. Okay. And so the big thing that's covered in the movie and kind of one of the out there things that Lawrence did

that kind of an impossible task, like John Wick style, is in 1917, there's a port town on the Red Sea called Aqaba. And there was basically to get, Aqabal wasn't defended from the rear because to its rear was a 600 mile long desert. So nothing could reach them. Self-defense.

Pretty, yeah, pretty safe there. And it was protected on the coastline by a bunch of naval guns. Well, the British Navy couldn't get in there. British naval? No, no, no. This was under control of the Ottomans. Oh, okay.

So, okay. that makes sense. So, and the way that the land was laid out coming into like the bay, it funneled ships into a very narrow corridor where they would have just taken too many, too much damage, too high a risk to try to take this. So they get this idea. So Lawrence and, sorry, Faisal, come up with this idea to basically try to take Aqaba. The benefit would be that the arrows would have an area farther north to set up like a, as a base because basically the way that they have to travel, it's almost like 600 miles, like to the north to get to this place.

Okay. It's almost like northwestern and then approaching from what would be the east. So wrapping around the bay? Kind of. Well, no, if, like, if you're looking like at a map, they would be traveling like at this, like kind of like at an 11 or 10 o'clock position. And then, yes, and then kind of curving right as they got to Aqaba to attack from the east. So he, he doesn't.

doesn't really tell British Command about this. So he's like, I figured that British Command can't be upset if we capture Aqaba, because then it gives us a place that's going to help keep the Suez Canal safer. It's going to prevent, they were worried about Aqaba, British Command, was that maybe the Germans might try to use it as like a U-boat station or something. So he's like, well, then if we capture it, they can't use it as U-boat station. And if we capture it, it gives not only the Arab Revolt of foothold in the Bedouin fighters, but it allows the British to then resupply us with equipment at this port.

It's almost like it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission? Exactly. So there was a 600-mile desert journey to attack Aqabah from the lightly defended rear, and he starts out with 45 guys. That's it? It's a 600-mile desert journey, dude, where they have to cross a huge portion of it without water. So they need to be able to carry resources to stay? Okay.

Arab people told him that it wasn't possible. They're like, no one crosses this section. Huh? With 45 people? For just people to cross it. Oh, just in general. Yeah, because they're having to, so basically there was a stretch of it. There was hundreds of miles where they could only take the water that they could carry.

There was no water source. And the camels could not drink at all. So basically, this was a situation where they were going to be dehydrated getting there anyway. The camels might end up dying or one of them. If the camel dies, you die. if you got disoriented from the heat, fell off your camel, no one was going to try to stop, put you on theirs, and try to risk themselves.

I mean, it was a very dangerous journey. That's why people were like... Just like a midnight run across the desert to see how four you could get. And at certain points they did only have to travel at night just because it was so fucking hot during the day. But I mean, 600 miles, man. How long did it take? A month.

A month before I believe the attack on Aqabal from the... time that they left. Once they actually made it through, so again, they didn't tell the British Command. Faisal was like, fuck this. I got money. I'll fund it. It'll fund your camels. All this kind of stuff. I got you. So during their travels, they hook up with this guy and his name is Aouda. Sorry for not getting the whole name. His name's Aouda. Outa is basically the leader of this different tribe, essentially of like Bedouin, of like Arabs and everything. And he basically becomes what Faisal is, is like the,

Faisal would like be the prime minister. Outa would be your Bernard Montgomery, would be your Eisenhower, your, like, your top general, your battlefield general. Oh, okay. Not President Eisenhower, generalizing. General Eisenhower, so he's like your battlefield general.

So he ends up, and he's working for the Ottomans at this point, out of his men. or on a contract from the Ottomans. So Lawrence meets with them and he's like, how much are they paying you? He's like, it's 150 gold or something like that per month or something. And he's like, you know, they're probably keeping that gold at Aqabah. And, you know, it probably doesn't make sense that they're only holding a month's worth in there in case they can't get resupplied or anything like that.

So why don't you just like help us and then you can just have all the gold? Let's get you in advance on your paycheck. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And being that also that out of was Arab and everything like that, the idea of Arab independence without having to be under the Ottomans was probably very appealing as well. I mean, he's not, he's working for them essentially out of probably a lack of options. They're paying him. But at the same time, if he can kick those fuckers out of his country, it's probably like, cool, that works for me. So there's a couple, and this is where the movie takes some artistic liberties, is basically it just sets it up to where they get out of the desert. They end up going, finding like this watering place. It ends up belonging to Aouda. He then makes like the Lawrence negotiates and everything like that. And then they charge Ackabah from the rear and take it over.

They have some skirmishes and like some actual battles like outside of Aqabah that are kind of the major ones. I'm really good with you telling me about where this artistic liberties happened because I'm not going to see this movie. I watched it's three and a half for four hours, dude. It took me two nights to watch it. Really? It was in when it was made, I think, in 62.

it was the reason people still talk about it it was because it was so ambitious. It was made in 62? Yes. I thought this was like a late 80s movie. No. It was this like it's been like up to it's been bumped up to 4K but it's this sprawling epic.

Like you see these shots and everything like that. It's it's a really beautifully made movie. Huh. But anyway, they don't just like charge into Akaba and like mow down the defenders. They do however end up fighting the Ottoman Turks. And during kind of one of the main engagements, They got 50 horsemen.

I think Outa liked horses. Like a lot of his, I think were like horsemen. Probably Ottoman influence. Maybe or that or he just wasn't having to cover such a large area where his home territory was. But so 50 horsemen and 400 camelmen versus the Turks. There were 300 Turkish casualties. They took 160 prisoners. The Arabs lost two guys.

Well, that's a pretty good kill ratio. I would say so. So they capture Akevah. And Lawrence then after they capture it, he's like, I'm going to go back to Cairo and tell him what we fucking did. So he ends up going back to Cairo. He meets like his new commanding officer. Wait a second. He crossed back over that same desert?

There was a different way that he went, I think. Oh, after they won Akabah, there was, it opened up a. Yeah, there was another shorter route to actually get to Cairo. So he ends up meeting his new like superior officer, a general. General Allen B, and he's now the new commander-in-chief of, like, the Egyptian expedition. They always called it was the British Expeditionary Force. They didn't call the British Army until I think, like, World War II, or maybe they still called it that.

But he was with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force side. And basically, after seeing what he did here, he's like, fucking awesome. He's like, your revolt strategy, you fucking run with it, man. And Allen B. and Faisal pretty much just gave him, like, he got their complete faith. Like Alan B later wrote something He's like he never gave me any cause To ever question his decisions He's like never did anything that made me regret

Putting him in that position or giving him that type of liberty Sounds like all he did was win So that makes sense All he does is win win win win no matter what But he doesn't always win we're gonna get Well speaking of not winning Here you go Oh shit

So there was Are we getting back to the agreement? Yeah no that this is more personal actually Oh So in November of 1917 This place called Dera He was doing like recon mission. He was dressed in his robes and everything. He's still a fucking white guy with

like piercing blue eyes and blonde hair. And he's wearing his thing so they can't tell he's blonde, but he's got a white fucking face. And he kept himself clean shaven and everything. So, so he's captured while reconning the city in disguise. And the Ottomans basically beat him and sexually assault him. And there's been some questioning about like, if, he embellished it, sorry, if he embellished it within his writings. His story, his story that he writes down is the book is called, I believe it's the seven pillars of wisdom, is basically his account of his war experience. He doesn't go into, he doesn't go into detail about what the assault was, but he said, Indera, the Citadel of My Integrity was a record, fuck, irrecover, why can I say,

irrecoverably? Erecovably, yeah, lost. Irrevocably? God damn it, that's it. It revocably. locally last. So he got graped over there by it kind of it kind of sounds like it didn't I mean even a finger in the butt or any

he got tortured and he yeah he may have had some stuff put inside and they didn't want to put inside him too much. They said it that kind of changed him a little bit to make him a little bit more reckless and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Penetrated him. Yeah. That's a weird move.

Well kind of throughout the rest of the war. He's still successful. He ends up creating a plan to capture. He's involved in the buildup to capture Damascus. So when he was captured, the Ottomans must not have known what they had, right? I was thinking about this too. So I think he, because he was so fluent that he could speak complete.

And so to them, I think it was probably very, if you're looking at the likelihood of saying, this is just some crazy white boy that's been living in the middle, you know, in the desert or in Syria his whole life or something like that. And we just ended up capturing him and everything. I think that was a higher likelihood than this is a British officer who knows fluent Arabic and everything and knows this backstory about where he's from and everything. And here's the thing too. there's no like this isn't even as communication wise this advances world war two where you're intercepting certain things or anything like that

this is where they have probably never heard of t e lawrence or anything so i think they're just looking at this guy and plus he's one white guy just going through the city i mean they already beat him and possibly fingered him well and too i guess if he kept himself out of combat there wouldn't be like of the pale face that rides with the Arabs or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, he ends up getting let go, but I mean, he's pretty traumatized as we all had something been shoved up us.

Yep. Not even going to question it. Yeah. So Damascus is one of those big targets. It's a huge, you know, a huge settlement. It's kind of, it's a very, fuck, I'm missing words here. Revereered. Yeah, Damascus is huge in like every religion.

You look it back in the Crusades, it was Holy City of Jerusalem, and then the Muslims had Damascus. I mean, it's huge within that culture. I'd love to see Damascus. So they get there, and a contention of Australian troops had been the first ones to get there to the city and take it over. The fuck are the Australians doing that. They're British, man. They've got to come over and fight. Oh, yeah.

So they're the first ones, but Lawrence ends up getting in there with, like, Faisal, and pretty much immediately sets up an Arab government under him. So basically, when the British get there, he can be like, we are. already got this. The Arabs already got this figured out. They've already got their government established. We're in control. Well, what ends up happening is the British get there. This Arab government is controlling certain sections of the city. The British are controlling more important strategic sections where like the power and stuff is. They turn off the power on the Muslims. They end up happen to come to the negotiation table. But what ends up happening is

Faisal does... So they just double crossed them? In a way. They brought them to the negotiating table. They weren't like get your get the fuck out of here. We're going to keep the power off. After they cut the power though. Yes, then they negotiated with them. That's fucked up. This history's fucked up man. So Faisal ends up only ruling until

1912. Basically the French come in and take over and depose him out of power. But getting a little hell ahead of ourselves when that happens in Dicey, 1912, I meant in 1920. Oh, okay. So put you up post war? So at this point, the war is winding down.

They understand from the British, French, and Faisal and his father, Sharif Hussein, they understand. I'm not sure if Sharif Hussein is still alive because Faisal gets made king of Damascus. So I don't know if the father, I should have looked into that. But anyway, that's why he gets to rule. They kind of decide at this point right after this occurs. Lawrence to all sides is kind of outlet with usefulness. British and French and the Arabs control Syria. They've driven the Ottomans out.

I believe at this point maybe the ottobans and the Germans have surrendered. Or it's getting to that point where they have. So they don't need Lawrence running around the desert anymore, you know, helping to strategically lead the Arab revolt. Not that he's fallen out of favor, just he's not. At this point, too, I think the British had kind of gotten a whiff of been like, hey, man, you're kind of working against some of our interests here for these guys. And so what we're going to do, though, is we're going to make you a full colonel

and we're going to send you home. And at this point, Faisal is kind of like, you can't do anything more here, man. He's like, I don't really need you here anymore. You might as well just go. He ends up, because he's friends with Faisal, later on during negotiations, I believe with the French,

he came down and served as an advisor to Faisal to kind of help him out with some stuff. So kind of post-war, he was very outspoken about Arab independence. And, fuck, on May 17th, he was in Italy in 1919, guy survives a fucking plane crash. It kills both pilot and co-pilot.

And Lawrence breaks his shoulder blade and two broken ribs. In the hospital, he's visited by the fucking king of Italy. What year was this? 1919. Dude, to survive a plane crash in 1919, you've got to be pretty special. Oh, yeah. I get that it may not be going faster. I don't...

It's still fucking, like, there aren't safety measures. It's not like fire suppression systems or like that kind of stuff the planes have been over. they sealed the tanks and all that. Seabelt's not going to do shit for you. No. Well, hence the pilot and the co-pilot fucking dying. He was probably sitting in the back of the plane's safest place to be sitting. Yeah. Either the area was asleep, so his body was completely relaxed. But he gets visited by the king of Italy, man. Because of his exploits and everything and what he's done in that area. Not that area, but essentially what the king of Italy has heard that this guy did. So once they get, you know, some years later, um, Lowell Thomas, he actually creates a stage show about, all he observed with like Alan B and like in Cairo and kind of the Arab Bureau and all that kind of stuff. Lawrence is kind of like a supporting player in it. Not Lawrence himself,

but the character of Lawrence in the stage show. He's kind of like a supporting player, but come to find out like it's Lawrence that everyone's like fucking fascinated with like, we don't want to fucking hear about Alan B. Like we tell us more about this Lawrence guy. So Lawrence himself actually helped as kind of an advisor when Lil Thomas was trying to get this show up and going, answering questions and everything and trying to kind of provide accuracy to it

and then later he states that he regretted kind of helping propagate that and everything because I think what it did is it kind of glorified the British side of it and that they were like they were the saviors and all that kind of stuff and then I'm sure there were some liberties taken with that too

we don't have any other examples of that exactly but this stage shown kind of like all of the other stuff that Little Thomas had, you know, taken as far as footage and documenting throughout their travels, basically kind of turns Lawrence into almost as much as you can be

like worldwide known. Like in at least countries that would be like able to receive that information. So like he's known like within the United States and everything too. Well, that would make sense. He would be almost known faster in the United States because the guy taking all the pictures, he said was from the Chicago Tribune.

So America is almost introduced to this guy before maybe the British know, like the British columners. And I'm not sure exactly how quickly he's able to get. I know most of the stuff about Lawrence comes out essentially after the war. I'm assuming it'd be pretty difficult.

I mean, I'm sure he's sending like, you know, what would you be able to send at that? Like telegraphs or something back over to Chicago? And he could be like sending pictures. He was, he did have a picture in a newspaper that was him and his full white robes and everything. And they said that just fucking captivated the people.

Like, what are we fucking looking at? Like, is like, Like, did the toner not work on, like, the page or something? Like, this guy's, like, really fucking white. I know this picture is in black and white, but that guy's really white. There are a lot more white than black on that guy's picture. So he also served in his advisor to Churchill in the Office of Colonial Affairs. So he knew Winston Churchill.

In fact, he knew him well enough that Churchill actually, I believe, after his death, one of, like, the most well-known quotes about, and you hear this as, a, you'll hear it changed up, but you'll hear it in like popular culture and everything. One of the things Winston Churchill said, God, he said, I fear whatever our need, we shall never see his like again. And when people come out and say like, like we shall never see his like again, it's usually that indication like we'll never meet anyone like him or anything like that. So Churchill came out and said that about Lawrence of Arabia. Do you think it was that or do you think that he hopes that he never has to see anybody in a position again? In a positive way, in a positive

way because here's the thing, man, like a lot of the success of the Arab Burville is, I'm not going to say it's all due to Lawrence. Of course it's not. But I think like we were talking about, he was the perfect person to be in that role. He was doing it with the best intentions because he was doing it with the intentions of benefiting the Arab people. I think that really ingratiated himself to those people. At the same time, by doing that the byproduct was him essentially being victorious for the British Empire. He was a conduit between the two to make the whole collaborative effort successful. Exactly.

And he was as revered on both sides as the other. He wasn't, it was like, yeah, he was trying to go ahead and do all this kind of stuff for the Arabs. But at the same time, the British are going to go and spin that to say, like, this guy is essentially helping us win the war. He's saving British lives by not having us send troops into that area. So, I mean, he was very, very. well respected. Except by the French. The French did not fucking like him. Of course they didn't because he was over there kicking ass instead of just sticking his head between his legs. So getting back to a question that you had previously. Oh yeah. There was a point. I'm not sure exactly when it was. It was prior to Damascus. It was after Akabaa, I believe, he found out about the Sykes-Pecot agreement. And he just fucking told Faisal. That's the belief is that he told. I think in that situation, he's not going to keep that from him. And so that caused, I think, a

little bit of the fire to light under Faisal, like, oh, we should probably capture some of these cities too. That's why we have to get to our holy places. Yeah, that's why we need to go, why we need to do this. Yeah, and France, you know, the, they, he tried to take our oil and all this kind of shit. So they say you can still go to, they're saying, they said you can still, like, go to France and, like, certain places, like, you can be like, you know, Lawrence, Rabia, like, fuck that guy. Huh. Fuck him with the baguette. Again. Yeah. So, man, he gets back and apparently he just doesn't want to like not do anything. So he tries to enlist in the RAF, the Royal Air Force, like right after he gets back under a different name. Oh boy. And

and the same identity. So he gets in and then they find out the guy, it was like something Ross. The guy suspects it's a fake name. He ends up leaving when he gets caught. He comes back with a letter and the letter forces the guy to put him back in. So I'm sure he just fucking called Allenby. Yeah. Or something was like, hey, this guy won't let me in the RAF. He's like, why not he's like, I used a fake name? He's like, the fuck did you use a fake name for? He's like, I don't know.

So he literally just comes back with a fucking permission slip. And it's just like let him in sign fucking General Allenby or some shit. So he ends up going to Pakistan. It was formerly like that area at that time was like an Indian territory from like 26 to 28. And then he ends up leaving because they. thought he was involved in some type of espionage. I'm not sure. Could have very well been trying to work for Arab interest or something like that.

And they would consider that espionage. Oh, absolutely. So doesn't get punished for it. They just suspect that he might be trying to do something he shouldn't. So they bring him back. And he comes back and starts working to help develop float planes for use and rescuing soldiers in the channel and everything. Huh. So does that.

And in 1935 in May, he loved motorcycle. He had motorcycles for the longest time. They say he joined the RIF because he loved things that go fast. He wanted to be around planes and everything. So he owns several different motorcycles, but there was like a really famous one. I think it's still like in the British Museum or somewhere. But he was riding that on May 13th and 35 and comes down a dip in the road and he's flying. Comes up over this dip and the dip gave him a blind spot.

When he came up, there were two kids on bicycles. He had to swerve off the road. He got launched over the handlebars. and I think he died in the hospital a week later. Shit. So a crazy, like, tie though to this to a weird way that he may have impacted even more going forward in the world. One of his neurosurgeons, because of this case, the research he did led to the use of crash helmets in both military and civilian applications of like motorcycles and stuff. Hmm.

Just because he saw what it did to. I don't know What the British would consider Like such a loss of a person Oh Anything like that And it was such a high profile thing That it's like we can't let this tragedy

But fall us again We must protect our heads We lost one of the most important guys Yeah like how you're already supplying All your fucking soldiers with helmets and everything How are you not just being like You think we should put these on with things that go fast That's a weird move yeah

That seems like Where the idea should start not in So I mean of the stuff that he left behind the big book that a lot of the information that comes out about his story was from the seven pillars of wisdom. And again, that's like an account of like his experiences during the war. And then there's some some things about him, some other controversial things.

For some reason, his sexuality has come up a lot about him. And people that have known him state that he didn't seem like at all like a sexually driven person or anything. there was this, for lack of a better term, like a younger boy, that during his time as an archaeologist, he didn't develop a relationship with, he kind of took him under his wing. He was almost kind of like his servant or like his valet. So he would travel with him. He traveled like to Cairo, I think, a couple times and everything. He ended up dying at some point of like typhus or something, but he made this like dedication to him.

And it was a really like beautiful dedication. But like there's some overtones about it that it might have. have been like a platonic love or something. I guess if you're out there, he wrote some stuff in his book about how when men are at war, they're out there in the battle and everything, that you can develop a love for like your fellow soldier, fellow man. When you say boy. I think they said he was like 14 or 15.

Ooh. Yeah. That's the thing. There's nothing to ever be proven about it or anything. And it doesn't outwardly say it. It was just his companion. So and some of, listen, and some of the stuff that comes out about this, like some of the people that have propagated these theories.

They were a long time ago, like when his book first came out, and they were like staunch colonialists. So there were people that were kind of against his message in a way, maybe kind of looking for something to discredit him by. The thing is, is like, I don't know if there's any accounts of him ever being with women, but there's never any accounts of him being with anybody else. It was just, he's one of those people that he just, I don't know if that was ever in his, and the thing is, is you realize what, like, homosexuals.

sexuality would have been looked upon like back in that time very poorly so if he had those desires or urges maybe that's why he also felt freer with other people not around is because he could be more of himself but that that's something that kind of gets brought up um the other thing that gets brought up is essentially that he might have been a little bit of a masochist he wrote something in the book about the time he was being tortured um that point he was being whipped on the back and he said something about being hit on the back exploded like every center of pleasure or like Max like something like that in my and so people are like well maybe he'd like get spanked or some shit they had to stop whipping him because listen i'm gonna tell you right now we

all got our shit some people like to be choked some people like to have a finger up their ass some people like to be you know spanked or whipped a little bit this guy he was able to go ahead and was able to gather the arab forces together to to push the ottomans out of syria so he's due a couple little little freak cards yes so what if he'd like to be to be spanked. That's a very healthy thing in this day and age. The other thing I'm not going to comment on, but if he liked to be spanked,

he liked to be spanked. Another kind of baller move about Lawrence was King George V offered him in knighthood, and he declined it because of what they did to the Arabs. He's like,

you guys did my friends dirty about this whole thing, so nah, you can keep your sir. Oh, is that what nighthood is when you get cert. That's when you get served. Okay. And despite that, when he died, he got a bronze bust inside St. Paul's Cathedral. Now, just to kind of explain how big of a deal that is, you only get a bust in St. Paul's Cathedral. That's only reserved for like the most prominent and famous of like British military commanders. So for this guy, who yes, he was a colonel in the very end, but when you have generals and all that kind of stuff, basically to have your bust in here as someone who wasn't

really a commanding officer or like a general or something like that, that's huge. So that kind of goes to show you what, like, how revered he was by even like his own countryman. Yeah, and he had to bust inside their. But yeah, I mean, I think he just, it's another one of those examples, kind of like Churchill, where he'd almost prepared, he found himself with all of the preparation that he had done in his early life, he somehow found his course to be put in a situation when all of that would be the most well served. And he had people that, you know, supported him like General Allenby Lindem do what he wanted to do and then being able to create such a strong alliance with Faisal that, I don't know, it just seems weird to me

the concept of like, just this like white guy showing. up and just being the only guy right now the fucking desert in like these white robes like you'd think like the Ottomans would be like it's the fucking ghost. I wonder if they had like a fucking legend about him. Well that's what I was talking about like the pale face in the Arab army like the pale face railroad destroyer. Was that just who they talked about?

Like that was sort of like an inglorious bastards the bear Jew? It had to have been something like that. He had to have been known essentially. There had to have been at some point maybe a price on his head or something like that. from the Ottomans, but I mean, I don't think you're that successful, essentially, without them being like, how the fuck are these guys beating us all the time now? Yeah. Like, who's doing this?

Who's getting the arrangements in order? I don't know if this is the guy, but there's like this weird, like, pale dude in white robes that seems to be kind of like moving around all these places. I thought this guy was just like a photographer or like their chaperone or something. This is going to sound weird to you. I think there's an albino in your room. Yeah. This guy should not be out in the sun.

They burn so easily. I have a sort of a left field question for you. And obviously, I don't expect you. Like, this isn't research, I think, that we would ever get. And this is sort of a white-centric way of thinking. But how do you think, or do you think at all, that Lawrence of Arabia is, mentioned in Arab schooling.

So the term Lawrence of Arabia, that came out of Howell or Lowell's stage show. So I think it was first something like the journeys of Allen B in the Middle East. And then after Lawrence kind of was discovered to be kind of like the main main star of that, it was Allen B's journeys in the Middle East and Lawrence of Arabia. And so that's where the term got. coined for that. I don't know. It depends.

You know, it's Victor's the right, the history. I would imagine, based on what he did, that Faisal, being as educated as he was, recognized that Lawrence's ability to impact things had reached its peak.

He had done all he could. And he probably, and he did more than I really think any other person put in that situation representing the British side of it, um, did for them. And so I would imagine to a degree, depending on where you're at, maybe in that area, that he would probably either neutral or good that they would recognize him. I don't know if there was really anything that they could say, of, of course, I'm sure

some stuff was left out of his journeys, maybe some shit that he got into and everything, but overall, I think they would probably look at him in a, in a positive light. So in like a, and again this is just pure ignorance but like in an eighth grade Arab textbook he might be mentioned in a way is like we would mention Churchill

and like a World War II U.S. history textbook like he's a name that's put in there but there's not like a lot of backstory about what he did he was just like an ally I would assume there's more information about him down there like if they're opening up it's like hey turn your books to page 27

of covering World War I day, I would assume that there's quote, he's mentioned much more prevalently than Winston Churchill and then when they flip over to, and again, I'm not sure what kind of I'm not sure of what happened in this area

during World War II honestly. I know that like the Germans were getting oil out of it. I know that the fucking Russians were probably down there too fucking getting oil. But, I mean, he wouldn't be mentioned World War II of course because he was dead, but I think he was probably mentioned a lot more than anybody, really anybody,

else from a British. Anybody that was outside that area that wasn't Arab, he's probably mentioned up there. Because he sort of seems like a character in their history where he was pivotal for them, but then again the history books probably don't

write the British as a great people. So he's like the best of the bad people almost. Yeah, I don't think he's probably painted very negatively. I think he's probably like this one guy really tried to help us out, but unfortunately he didn't have the pull. Just a lot of neutrality.

Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to think of somebody in other aspects of history to compare him to when he's like... There's none. Based upon what you said, like, there's no... Because there's nobody in like maybe... Oh, okay. Saka Jua. Yeah.

I mean, you can't say Lewis and Clark. I mean, it's Lewis Clark, Sackageaia like in, you know... But as far as like... And they wouldn't have found themselves. They wouldn't have found the Northwest Passage without Sakeria. Yeah, like that would be. a pretty apt comparison and everything like that. In native cultures, she may not be like super celebrated as much as we do.

Yes. But at the same time, she's probably in a sense, she's probably like, and then finally, thank God, Sacchia spoke up. And she's like, I'll take you guys. And she got these fucking white guys out of our camp. Yeah. And they're like, we love Sacchiae because of this. Okay.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, aside from, and here's the crazy thing, aside from the movie, like, there really hasn't been anything about. about like, even like documentaries and stuff, not a ton of stuff about, about T.E. Lawrence or Lawrence of Arabia. But, yeah, just a really fascinating person, someone that found themselves basically

getting to, in a weird way, like live out their dream, minus the fucking people getting shot out and everything, but he got to go down there and try to work for something that he really cared about. So, yeah, just a really fascinating character. I would have been, I'm very interested to, kind of know what he would have thought leading up to and during World War II

and everything and kind of how he would have what his role would have been like if he would have they would have assigned him to go back down to that area. Yeah. And everything because again there was stuff going on in Africa during World War II so if he would have been down there and they're like hey do you think you still have all your buddies over there in the in Syria and the Middle East and everything

and he's like you want me to go do this again? Well and or that or he just when I'm like, fuck this. I don't want any more war. I'm fucking out of here, man. I've lived this life before. I don't want to live it again. I'm thinking that's probably more,

more akin to what it actually would have been. Yeah. He would have had probably much like Churchill had, whereas he saw the Germans during World War I. I'm sure there was still some Ottoman German strategy that Lawrence had also seen too. Yeah. I am kind of trying to put myself into that mindset

of like, you're not happy with like what your country did. Yeah, they fucked it up the first time. They fucked it up the first time with these people that you really grew to, you know, probably love. And so kind of just being like, eh, I'm gonna set this one out, boys. You guys do this one yourself.

Not sure if that would have been an option, but. I think he got himself a pass. Oh, yeah. All right. You got any final questions? No, this was great. I had absolute, the only information that I had, and this was part intentional

and then just part of me being dumb. But the only information I had on Lawrence of Arabia was anything that you've ever said to me about him. And then after that, I intentionally, like, when you were talking about what he looked like in his white silken robes and all that shit, like that was the first time I'd seen him. And it just completely blew my stereotypical mind

of what I thought Lawrence of Arabia would be, which it's awesome. I think that's what it is for a lot of people is they hear Lawrence of Arabia and they either think to the movie and they're like, and then when you see that movie, you're like,

it almost seems like when they just put like a character, oh, what was the one I was telling you about the other day, the gods of Egypt or the one that had fucking Christian Bale and like Joel Egerton

is like Moses and like the Egyptian pharaoh. I'm like, the fuck you're in here. When you look at the cover of Lawrence of Arabia, you're like, they really like, this was back before they gave no fucks about cultural like miscasting

or anything like that. It's like, this is Lawrence of Arabia. This is the whitest fucking guy that you guys could have selected for this role. And then you're watching it. I'm like, oh, it actually was a white guy. They finally got the casting. They got it actually.

Yes. Oh, my God. You guys got it very close. My bad. All right, guys. Well, thanks for joining us for another episode. And we'll see you on the next one. Peace.

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