Historically High - MK Ultra - The CIA's Mind Control Program

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

What happens when you take mind control experiments started by the Nazi's in WW2, give it to the newly established CIA, and provide a bunch of money and no oversight to a bunch of assholes to research it? You get MK Ultra. The secret CIA operation to create assassins who didn't know they were assassins, spies who wouldn't remember information if captured, and interrogation that always got results. These guys dosed everyone, knowing and unknowing. They even have ties to Charles Manson. You've got a spare 2 hours and we've got what you need. Support the show Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

like cutouts into the wall for like little storage facilities like that you would have on your land or like if you had like a little um what am i thinking of like a little uh like mini house or like guest house no like a shed basically okay like they have sheds that they've built just so you can walk in and see their setup for the sheds like like like organizational stuff for a shed oh okay i was like they're not putting furniture in a shed No, but there's like Stick walls and different things like that Yeah, pegboards and stuff Yeah So you see all that and everything has a tag on it

You take a picture of the tag And then once you get done walking around all the sets There was like So do they just expect everybody to have a camera phone Or if you didn't have one Could you like take a paper tag with you or something So here's the thing is they have a setup Where you know like the

Long Stretch tapes Like kind of like a A fabric tape measure Yeah So they have those to 48 inches. They have pencils. They have notepads. They have all these measuring devices.

So you can actually measure out the furniture to see if it'll fit in your house. Like they just have those set up at a stand and you can go grab as many as you want to measure whatever you want in the store to make it all work. So after that you write down what the lot number is, where it all is. You walk around like, I want to say it's 18 or 20 set out. It's probably good that they do a numbered or lettered system because if you're having to try to write down what the name of those things are, Bjorn Fjord and the Furgan-Yergen and the- Yeah, so our desks, I did the look up on our desk. Oh, on how to pronounce it. Yeah. Come on.

And that's what these current desks are, right? Yep, that's what our new desks are. Oh, yeah. They're called. Hot new, hot new studio update. We got these sweet new IKEA desks. they feel official. Yeah.

Oh, storage area? Good goddamn referee with a whistle. All right. Fialvo. Fialvo? We have the Fialbo. Is that a Vaux or a bow at the end? Fialbo.

I think it's a bow. Fialbo? Yeah, I don't know a lot of Swedish, but that's going to be the Swedish that I know. So you go around and you find all these different areas, and I'm sure explaining this to anybody that's been to Ikea, like no shit. That's just how it works.

After you get done walking around, then you go downstairs. And downstairs is just as big as upstairs, except for it's all the overstock for like all the stuff. So like anything that you wrote down up there, you go down below and find the section and you take as many of them as you want. Okay, so it's the warehouse basically. You start up in the showroom, then you go down to the warehouse. You just do all your own stuff, like all your own shopping.

Gotcha, okay. You basically don't even have to go upstairs. Like if you know there's something you're looking for, you can go on like the kitchen section or whatever. But then when it came out time to get the desk, we walked out into like this giant warehouse. I imagine it like because I haven't seen one. Does it look like,

I imagine it looks like the fucking storage hanger from like Indiana Jones where they store the arc and as it backs up, it's just stacks. A little bit. Crates and stuff. I know it's not like that. No, it's sort of like a mix between that and like Home Depot. You walk in and there's all those big shelves

and there's shit that's just stacked to the ceiling. Like, I think there was like 8, 10 high. And it was just massive. And then you go wait in line like a fucking supermarket with your, oh, that's the other thing. The shopping carts they have, all four wheels spin. So instead of it just being the front ones to guide it, you can throw the shit around, you can throw it sideways. I was throwing 360s. It's like zero radius.

Yes, it's fantastic. Why are the Swedish so much more advanced? I don't know. I think it's just like a design thing Like you have to pick one thing to be good at Like in America we pick killing people in war In Sweden they're like hey let's make sweet furniture Let's make awesome modular furniture

And kick ass meatballs Yeah did you get the meatballs? Yeah the meatballs I mean they were good I don't know what people rave about them for You can buy 20 meatballs for $5 I was gonna say 20 for 5 I figure if you're getting a decent meatball at 20 for 5 That's probably about what

Yeah. And of course, I had to be a dick and take it too far. And I thought, well, I'll get some veggie meatballs too. I mean, if they have regular good meatballs, the veggie meatballs have to be decent. Veggie meatballs weren't good. No. But they were just as cheap. And it's just like that's their whole pricing model is everything's cheap.

It's not going to be the best quality, but it'll be cheap and it'll look good. I'm guessing part of it what it is is it's kind of the, I don't know if Costco has this ideal. or idea on it, but I would imagine that if you're at IKEA with as big as it is, and if you're just getting there and you're like, okay, let's hurry up, you know, I'm hungry. Let's get, let's bust through here and just grab some stuff. If you can load yourself up with 20 Swedish meatballs for $5, guess what? You're going to be in there a lot longer. Excuse me, well, and they have everything.

They had like chicken and they had desserts. You walked through basically like a cafeteria line to get your stuff, which was interesting. When we walked in, I was so. high walking in. And the first thing I thought was meatballs. We got to go meatballs on this. How close is the cafeteria to the entrance? You literally walk up the escalator and you turn around and it's the other side.

But the other weird thing is all the stuff that's in the cafeteria is literally all the products that they sell. So like the plastic trays that you load the food up on, they sell those. The plates, the silverware, they sell those. You go and sit at a bench. It's just constant advertising. You're like, look at these. Look how nice these plates are. Well, they're on.

They're the fugin your car. Yeah. Yeah. And if some guy walks up, he's like, hey, you having a good meal? You're doing all right? It's like, I demand you show me this table. I want this table right here. I want a bought.

I want it purchased. I want you to give me the tag so I can run down and get it. He just hands you your tag. He's like, there's actually a return to the table. There's a tag you can grab. Yeah, like, if you just want the whole set, you just like take your tray and walk down to the people and just be like, okay, I want everything here. I'm taking all this home with me.

Did they have like a halfway stop, cafeteria? No. So let's say you didn't want to eat at the beginning. You get halfway through your journey. and you're like, we're halfway to Mordor, we can't turn back to the Shire. Where do we stop? This is where things got legitimately as a 30-year-old man who was high in public scared. And it was like I was 10 years old again because I was sending you text back and forth

trying to get this desk figured out for what we wanted. And we had to go back to look at another one to see how much wider it was. And there's only arrows on the floor to show you like, Where you need to be headed if you want to head towards the exit. Like a flow traffic type situation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But like the lights this way.

And it's the way that they had the sections built. It's like here's Ottomans. Here's couches or anything like that. And I had turned back around to try to go find the other desk. But I had gotten confused as to where I had come in from which direction. If I had come in from Ottomans or if I had come in from chairs. And so I start walking towards Ottomans. And we're...

Woman. Did we previously come from the land of Ottomans? Yeah. Or the land of recliners. We start walking towards the Ottomans and I'm looking around like, I don't fucking see anything that I remember here. I feel like we're going in circles. I feel like I've seen this Ottoman before. And that's, you just kind of have to base it.

Like anything that you've seen in your mind, that's the way that you have to go. So like I think I've seen that. So we walked like probably 100 feet in the other direction. It's like, I don't see anything that I know here. This is an unknown land. We haven't been through this part. So we turn around. we're walking back through,

walk probably 150 feet past where we were. I'm looking around like, I don't fucking recognize any of this either. And so I thought, well, it's a 50-50 chance. Like, I'm just going to walk until I'm in another state

or I'm out of IKEA or whatever. We must walk until we find the road. Mm-hmm. And we walk all the way until we found couches. And then I can kind of reorient myself where couches were and then head back to that desk. It was like, I mean,

had I been probably by myself and didn't have like a cell phone or anything? anything like that, I would have been lost, lost. Like, it would have taken me a while. And we were wondering about this, a place that big, you could spend the night in an IKEA, I think, pretty easily. Like, they wouldn't know. Like, you're saying if you set out to stay in there overnight.

If you wanted IKEA camp, I do believe you could IKEA camp. I bet you could, but I bet there's motion sensors in there once they do leave. So the moment you moved once you were in there. Yeah. Or they're like, what's going to, what's the worst is going to happen? If someone camps in here, they're just going to like. a whole bunch of the stuff that they experienced overnight and want to bite more. They probably just encourage customers

they're like, we got a few campers. They're like, that's fine. They'll just buy all their stuff in the morning. They just show up, the people show up to unlock the store and there's just one guy with six cards standing there in line first thing. Like, hey, where'd you come from? It's just sitting on it. Just be like, I'm ready to check out, please.

It's the worst thing it's going to happen. The guy's going to jerk off in one of our beds and try to eat the rubber loaf of bread that's sitting in the kitchen. I think we'll be okay. That's the thing about being kind of being stoned in like a place that you've never really been to versus like being somewhere that you're familiar with even if it's like out in public or out and about if you're familiar with it it's it's a lot more comfortable it is that's what

makes it so fun is like you know like the environment around you so you know the good spas to go sit or hang out or where you're walking so you don't have to worry about any of that element you can just kind of relax and just watch you feel like you're doing so well too because you know where everything is it's like you're in a symphony and I'm sure you look like a dumbass, like reaching for different things or when you're shopping, anything like that, but you're in your... Imaginary symphony. You're talking about when people are, you're waving your hands

and people would go by. You're the conductor. You're sitting up there. You're not even looking. You're reaching, grabbing the wrong shit off the shelf, but it's what you believe you needed. It was a full-on experience. And I don't know if I'll ever be back to an IKEA. Like, I'm sure I probably will just because curiosity will get the better of me.

And it was, for the most part, very fun. It was a mythical land. people that work there wear like Lowe's vests but they have yellow bow ties that they wear to I don't know if it's like to signify management or what

they walk around with bells on like it is a Swedish experience from start to finish what did they like a spa Was that a bad pun? No what did you start to finish Oh ha ha ha ha like F I and IASH yeah

what were you saying i was going to say you what if they just put in like a swedish spa in there too i could have gone for schfitz at that point can you imagine that you'd just be in like hey honey have at it go walk around the store i'll be in getting a 60 minute deep tissue one if you have that kind of room what would stop you from making like a a full-on spa back there but you're selling like infrared saunas or you're selling oh you like these towels and these robes that you're wearing doing your spa experience, you know, we get them. I'll tell you what, there's a price tag on them. Just walk up front and let them see it.

Yeah, if you just want to keep it on? Yes. Yeah, you can just walk out with it. You could make so much money. And that to me seems like the whole idea is it's just you seeing it in an area and like trying to envision it. And I really couldn't envision it. But I was just in a different place at that point.

It was, I wasn't a shopper. I was an explorer. I was an explorer. Mm-hmm. so it was yeah I would recommend it I can't believe you haven't done one yet no I need to I know I've like been to you know Seattle and places where they have one but it was never to do something like that I didn't have the time to like set aside to do that but I want to well and that's the other thing too is when we were talking about it the girlfriend was

like yeah it'll take two hours no I've never been to a shopping experience it's taken two hours unless it was a mall maybe like a large mall and even then I'm I'll buzz where I need to hit and keep going and so so we were talking to some of her family. You didn't spend two hours at that mall in Vegas? Cesar's? Probably not. Well, I guess because you could stop and eat there.

I meant the one next to like Treasure Island across the street. Did you guys go to that? It's like the fashion mall of America or something like that. It's the huge one. I don't remember. Because Nike Town is in Caesars down there. And that's really all I cared about. At least it used to be.

If you walk all the way down to the end of Caesar's shops or whatever, it's all the way down at the end, and it was an actual Nike town that was in Caesar's. I probably didn't go that far. Well, speaking of situations in which it's good to dose yourself, what do you think of situations where someone else is dosing you on the regular and you have no idea about it? If they're in a position of power or if they're stronger than me,

I don't like it. If you know what you're signing up for, though, I'm free to, free use at that point. If you walk in and I'm told, hey, he's going to be drugs at this party, it's going to be nothing lethal and it won't kill you, but it might sneak up on you at some point. I'd be willing to roll those dice. If I don't have anything to do the next day, yeah, sign me up. Unfortunately, when you don't know about it and something like that happens and you have priorities the next day, then I'm anti. Can you imagine part of your job? would be like you would have to, they would have to disclose to you and you would have to agree to, okay, part of this job is at some point during this, at several points, you could be unknowingly dosed with LSD.

And then we're just going to observe what you're doing. Try to go about your day. The unknowing part of, I get the unknowing sucks, but would it's something like LSD that unless you've experienced it a lot before, you would know what it was, that would. that would be the worst. If you look over in your paper is starting to melt off your desk and you didn't realize that that was going on, that's a legitimate concern. So today what we're doing is we're looking into MK Ultra,

which was, technically it was a CIA operation that occurred between 1952 and then 1973. That's when the official end date was on it, whether it went on past that, privatized what I, I have no clue. But basically, it was a CIA mind control program to develop what they considered either, like, what, hypno assassins? Or the more common term for it is maturion candidates.

And basically, it was to stop me if I'm getting this wrong. It was basically to develop mind control in a way that it was like hidden programming. So they wanted these people to be able to perform acts or assassinations or carry messages. things like that without knowing they had that information. And then upon receiving a signal or a series of signals, some type of trigger, they would then be able to either carry out that mission of assassination or whatever or be able to divulge the information that they had. And then forget about it afterward, not carry any memory.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what it was. One of the words that they used pretty often was they wanted these people to have something They called an amnesia wall. So they wanted either these orders like you were talking about or an act that they could, that they had done, that they had performed. They wanted to be able to snap that into somebody's mind, but then also put a block in front of it. So in case they were ever captured and they were being detained or they were being tortured,

that there would be a legitimate amnesia block and not knowing what they had done or what they knew. They would never be able to give it up because they didn't know the information. even though the information was in their head. Exactly, yeah. It would be as if they had never even had the information to begin with. And, I mean, it's, we see it, not having the benefit of, like, pre and post and things tends to get me a little confused. And it makes you wonder, because we've all seen movies now where this has been, like, a plot. Yeah.

But before any of this happened, before M.K. Ultra and all this was brought to light, do you think the, were movie plots? Oh, before it had like reality influencing like fiction? Mm-hmm. Like pre-Aids, post-Aids. I mean, we've had movies, Harvey Milk, different things like that. Philadelphia. Yeah. We've had movies about it now, but

pre-AIDS, they didn't know what it was. So you're basically asking, did it take it happening in reality to make it something like, could we not even think of that in a fictional way? Yeah. Was it Is it something that like You watch in the movie theaters and you laugh You're like ha ha that's a crazy premise

And then it actually happened You're like holy shit that actually happened I think that it may be not to the degree that like movies took it Once it picked up steam with like mind control agents and like Computer programming and all that kind of stuff and images But hypnotism has been around for God knows how long Thousands of years So in one way or another this has always been

Something to control somebody else's mind, trying to work on somebody else's mind to have them do what you want them to do. And kind of going back prior to MK. Ultra for some like predecessor programs that kind of inspired this is it goes back to our favorite time where the Nazis were doing their thing over in Europe. So 45 saw kind of in it when the, you know, World War II ended and they were breaking up kind of as the operation paperclip thing, breaking up resources in Germany, the, what are they called the human? What was it?

Human reparations. Yeah. So other people that got brought over were also, along with the information, were some people that were conducting like mental experiments at like prisoner camps and POW camps and concentration camps. And although, you know, you might. not want to initially use that information. You don't want anyone else having that information.

And so the United States probably kept some of that stuff. And along with that, too, 1945 were kind of right. The dust still hasn't settled. There's still smoke on the battlefield. Well, I was going to say 45, that's, I'm trying to think, when did Japan surrender? Because that might have been, depending on when in 45, that might have been after victory in Europe

and then Japan didn't surrender for a little while after until we dropped both bombs. Yeah, they were holdouts. They wanted to be tough. But we still have so much of what's going on during war still happening. There's still POW camps. We're not giving the Germans back.

Like as soon as they surrendered, it wasn't like we just sent everybody back. We're still holding people. There's still camps in Russia. There's still camps all around. in allied territory. Oh, yeah. This is literally the smash and grab period.

Like, this is when you're just grabbing everything that you can and you're trying to, you know, it's the Americans or the Allies and the, you know, USSR, the Soviet Union, pretty much just snatching up every material they can to try to come out on top of World War II as the new superpower. Well, and I think there was still good feelings between the two of them. May 845 was when Victor in Europe. So this, if this was right after, then, yeah, this is during, the mad scramble in Europe. So you have, yeah, basically the two biggest forces, I guess that you could say that ended

World War II, are on the same team, they're on the same side, they're glowing. Same team doing that. Yeah, they came out on top. And it really didn't take long. I mean, you could kind of see it coming in the way that it was where between a democratic country and a communist country, there's only going to be so many things that they can agree on for so long. It just eventually is going to go south.

Well, especially when you're looking to divide up kind of the spoils. Like, not technically divided as far as ownership, but who's going to watch over this and that when they started putting the, because we didn't the Berlin wall go up pretty, the division of Berlin occurred pretty quickly, right? I thought, no, because it came down in the 80s, right? It did, but what I'm wondering is how far after World War II did that division? Because that was up after, that was the result of World War II.

It could have been really quick after that. And the areas around it were so after they carved them up, these areas were still war-torn countries. So they're definitely in the mood and in the area where they could be taken back over and the USSR could expand quickly. So at that point, the U.S. kind of starts seeing some very weird things. It was a, did you read about the whole? man or the preacher that was over in Hungary?

No. There was a, I think he was a preacher man that was over in Hungary that was arrested for trying to overthrow the government. And at his trial... This recent in World War II? This was World War II. Okay. This is kind of what started making the U.S. really distrust the USSR. So, when they bring in the...

the preacher man and he's giving his kind of talk in front of the jury in front of the court system over there for overthrowing it he just has this blank look on his face and he's just admitting to everything that he had done just one thing after another after another and it looked like he was in a trans like state as he was doing it just like he remembered his grocery list and he's just listing off everything and just staring off into nothingness as he's doing it

and this kind of makes the U.S. start to wonder like why is this happening? Why is this guy just admitting to everything free without any sort of... Prompting or benefit to doing it, yeah. And so the U.S. is starting to think, well, I wonder if they have some sort of a mind control device. I wonder how they broke him, if they're feeding him some sort of a truth serum

that's just letting him admit everything. And that kind of starts getting the ball rolling as far as the U.S. trying to figure out, is this the beginnings of the Cold War where we've moved away from physical threat and more into like the scientific... The cloak and dagger espionage,

like mind games type thing, yeah. And if they do have that, how many of them are over in this country right now or how many soldiers have they programmed to send back over here to steal secrets? Have they stolen secrets already? It didn't take a whole lot for that partnership to bring

break up. I mean, obviously, I think everybody probably knew at that point, like, this was going to be the next superpower versus superpower. But the transition just seemed like we don't need to necessarily build up as much of an army now because we're both still coming off of a physical fight. Now we've got to figure out the mental aspect of it. Yeah, and I think that's what really kind of, and I'm not saying any way that this forced anyone's hand to do this because this was, this whole thing is pretty gross. but so when you get into you know the Cold War and basically a situation where you're getting into those you know the spy craft in Berlin or you know you have spies crossing the wall and everything trying to find information I think that's where you do really get into more of the well if we capture somebody we got to try to get information out of this person or even better once we get the information out of this person what if we could send that person back to get more information and then have them come back If we can flip them, they're... But don't flip them in a way that lets them know that they've been flipped. Because at that point, then if they get questioned and they crack under pressure, the thing they need to do is they need to completely forget that they've been captured, provided us information, and then sent back.

We need to make a human voice recorder out of this person. Exactly. And so kind of some of the key players for this, just so we can kind of list out, because we're just going to be kind of naming names back and forth. A lot of these guys had similar type roles in this program. So, let's see, Roger Smith is the MK Ultra supervisor. What was the name of the program that was kind of prior to this?

It was Bluebird, right? Bluebird was originally where they had started. Okay. And first off, before they had already had a project or anything, they called it M.K. Naomi. Okay. Which I never really got the explanation for that. But what led to M.K. Naomi in the startings of all this was there was, I think he was an intelligence officer.

His name is L. Wilson Green. And in 1949, he heard about these medical trials that were being run over in Switzerland by a fellow named Albert Hoffman. And Albert Hoffman is the father of LSD. He's the one that discovered it. we'll have to do maybe like a little mini episode about him because he's a very brilliant man. And I do believe that this was one accident that happened in a lab that kind of set the world in a different direction. It didn't have a super globalistic impact, but it changed a lot of minds over a lot of different periods of time. Well, it's crazy now, too, not to go off on a tangent with LSD, but it's crazy now that like after having some research,

resources to kind of explore the options for LSD as far as like a beneficial that it's certain to come out now to where of course not for everybody because everyone's different but they're finding LSD and certain dosages to be like therapeutic and everything for people with PTSD like a lot of trauma and everything and kind of going through and sorting some of that out. So it's just kind of weird to see that something can be vilified. And of course currently LSD is probably more abused recreationally than it is used in the medical field. Maybe. But at this point, what I'm saying is it used to be probably where it was just recreational and for use. Now you're finding uses for it. So the more it gets studied, the more useful it seems like it is. Well, at this point, I can understand why they do consider it so bad and so illegal, because if this was the only testing that they had done through MK Ultra, you're going to see the worst of the worst outcomes. That's true.

It's going to be associated with this. Like it was, yeah. Exactly. So Hoffman had just discovered the compound known as LSD. It's lysurgic acid, diethyamide. And he was working with an ergot enzyme that was found in some fungus that was growing on, like it grows on rye and some other grains. And I was trying to remember, were we talking about the Vikings or were we talking about Homer?

I think it was about Homer. we were talking about the special wine that they had. It was called like the heavy, I'm trying to remember, but yeah, I was talking about how in the clay pots they found ergot, like traces of ergot in there. And so that's what they would think is like fortified wine or it wasn't fortified wine. It was just some type of ceremonial wine would have hallucinogenic type purposes or like qualities to it. And that's how you would get profits oracles. They would drink this. They would hallucinate that they would give their predictions.

So that kind of lends back to what you were talking about there, whereas there's a good chance there was some hallucinogenics in those wines. And Hoffman had accidentally, I don't know if he had tested it on himself intentionally or by accident, but when he had tested it on himself. With his finger on accident to go turn a page and forgot he had some of it. And I want to say at this point it can soak in through your skin. and what I had heard about Hoffman before was he was handling it without gloves. And that's when it had soaked into his skin, which that could have just been an urban legend.

And this could really be the true part. But either way. How many things have been found by accident or something like that? Like this, he could have been when he was trying to work on an ergon enzyme. He could have been trying to go ahead and use that fungus to create a new type of better penicillin. Like how many accidents occur that comes up with something like this. He was using it to cure. It was something weird.

I wish I'd written it down. But it was like back pain or like knee pain, something like that. It's the brain pain coach. Yeah, some kind of pain. And I'm sure going through this whole thing, he wasn't thinking about pain at that point because he was trying to figure out how his whole life was shaping. How do I fucking get the elves to come back?

Yeah. And I'm sure going through it, his description of just the waves that it came into the point where he started seeing all the different things that he was seeing and the color. spectrums and all that. He had a full-on trip, and the way that he describes it, it does sound awesome. It was great. So, Wilson Green ended up coming back in writing a, kind of like a whole report for the CIA.

I don't know if it was the CIA at that point. It was the government, I think, at that point, just they didn't have the CIA, maybe. But he saw the value in Hoffman's study that he had performed over there on the people as far as, is like, he calls it the psychochemical warfare, something that can unlock in the brain as far as if you do have prisoners of war and you need information out of them, you can dose them to get them to talk. They were basically just looking for some way to crack someone mentally, whether it be, you know, sodium pentothal,

what they consider to be their truth, sermon, everything. They were basically just trying to find ways in which they could get information. And then I think the aspect of once they could get the information, then it kind of evolved out of that. Like, well, if we can get something out, we can probably start putting some stuff in. Yeah. So I think it just naturally kind of evolved from that. There's anything that they could do to gain some sort of a mental advantage.

And this report made its way to the president. It's what Harry Truman. And Truman was the one that Greenlit it. So it wasn't like this was just something that was buried in, like, legislation, or it was something that was like... Yeah, but what was... and not to say that Harry Truman didn't have information regarding this and everything, but what do you think it took in that report to have it greenlit? Like, what do you think?

How much of, how much did they stray from the original plan when MK. Ultra gets up and running? It was, I'm sure it wasn't, they didn't write down the whole plan because this was just the beginnings of it. This was just green saying there's a chance that this is going to work. We don't know how we're going to use it. I see green writing something up and being like, hey, we found this stuff over in Europe. that makes prisoners more susceptible to providing information without actually the physical torture. It actually, we don't have to physically torture them. It's something that assists us in providing it.

I can see here in Truman being like, yeah, why not? If it's going to give us an advantage, and maybe it's going to be something that's going to be less violent or aggressive. All we need is like $20 million. It's not a lot. And we'll take it from there. Then we'll let you know what we find out. he greenlit probably one of the most torturous projects that

I don't know what all they've done in Guantanamo against your own populace against your own citizens you need test subjects somehow and luckily going back to what we were talking about for the U.S., very unlucky for I don't want to say unlucky for Nazis because they kind of deserve everything they get

there's a lot of this that I don't agree with as far as the experimentation this taking the moral high ground I don't agree with because there were a lot of things that Nazi scientists did to Jewish people but this was almost like a taste of their own medicine as far as I'm concerned what I think did they initially did they test this on some prison yeah oh they did they knew that they really couldn't test people well who's gonna fucking complain yeah even that if that hit the news and they were like government performs drug tests on Nazi soldiers people would be like about fucking time Yeah.

Extra, extra, read all about it. Nazis being tortured. Nobody gives a shit. Yeah, yeah. The enemy, my enemy is... A test subject? A test subject, yep. In 1950, the CIA was told to begin work

with the chemists at the Special Operations Division, which was in Fort Detrick and Maryland. And they knew how to synthesize the lysurgic acid. They knew how to synthesize the lysurgic acid. They knew how to synthesize. the LSD, but it wasn't going to be the same compounds. Like, Hoffman wasn't going to do it. So it wasn't going to be...

So Hoffman wasn't a part of this at all? No, they'd used his research, and I'm sure that they were in contact and some of the chemists were, but this was going to be something that was now going to be made. Correct. He was probably being communicated with on compounds on how to do what to do with the LSD versus what purpose they're using it for, I would imagine. Okay. So this is where...

I don't, in discussing this, I just won't want to throw him under this. like Hoffman was the start of it. No, I do believe that Hoffman played a big role just in finding it and how it all happened. But I think he was innocent towards anything that M.K. Ultra did with what he had found after him. I don't think he was giving them ideas as to how to test people. But M.K. Naomi is born at that point. And its first project was going to be Project Bluebird. That's right, Project Bluebird.

And that's when we get another character that's this guy, I think is probably the one that I would pin all the blame on. Alan Dulles, he was appointed the deputy director of the CIA. And he was the one that was tasked with overseeing Bluebird.

The first place that they went to start testing this stuff was an American camp in Oberzal, Germany. And it was called Camp King. And it was where a lot of the Nazi prisoners were held. But they obviously couldn't do it on base and

let everybody in the military know what they were doing. So they created something that was a little off base as far as like a laboratory that they could start testing them. And when they would bring in these prisoners, they would give them a mix of depressants and stimulants at the same time. So your heart's beating a million miles a minute, but you also feel depressed, you feel down. Like your body is going through just a mishmash of feelings and your, I'm sure all your major organs and everything are just completely changing at that point.

And they started after they got them all loaded up on the depressants and the stimulants, they started electroshock therapy. They started hypnosis. They started doing like sensory deprivation to try and see if they could break these guys enough to give them any secrets or how they would react to them. Just complete lab rat guinea pigs at that point. This was all new science that they were testing out. So there was nothing that they had to go off of as far as like what doses to give these guys.

And you had certain like setups for electroshock therapy and hypnosis that they'd used over in the States, but nothing in like a war type atmosphere. You hear things like this of like this being done against former like Nazi prisoners and German prisoners and everything. And there's part of me that's like, Okay, well, I see that word. And I'm just like, okay, well, fair enough. They were doing it to, you know, all of their prisoners and the people they had in the concentration camp. So, you know, why aren't we doing it to them if we had something to test?

At the same time, isn't the whole point of us to be better and not step to that level? Yeah, it's... So then you hear about that and you're like, yeah, I mean, I guess if you're going to do that, those are the people that do it too. but the fact that you're even having to do it is just like that's what that's what they did it's not an eye for an eye because then that just takes you down into the shit with them it's a total glasshouse scenario at that point because you didn't like what they were doing enough to step in and stop them then you take up sort of similar projects against them that you were mad at them for and i i don't know kind of how that all worked out but it really well

obviously we worked on enough to keep the program going. So they saw enough promise and they saw enough stuff happen to go and continue it. So eventually, Dulles brings in it looks like it's Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, right, in 51? Yeah, he, I say that Dulles is probably the one that's the point man for blame here. I think that he is because when he brought in Gottlieb, he wanted somebody that was outside of the CIA and outside of the government.

and may have a little bit more of a shaky moral compass. Somebody that could really stretch this out. He's not to hold into any of the rules or restrictions that the government would have. Yeah, he's just, he's an outsider. So he gets appointed chief of the chemical division. Basically his job is to kind of supervise all the safe houses. And when I say safe houses, it's all the different locations they would have set up in which they were able to go ahead and test this. That could be anything from brothels, hostels really aren't something that they would do.

So it would be like brothels. They would have actors in apartments, just living in certain apartments throughout the country, that they would then like make friends with people outside and be like, hey, you want to come up and hang out? We can, you know, smoke or do whatever. And then they would dose people and be able to watch them. They had places like this throughout the United States. Roger Smith, I think I mentioned him a little bit ago.

He was an M.K. Ultra supervisor. Richard Helms was also involved in this who would actually go on to become the CIA director. and then I think this guy, I'm not saying he's at the top so he doesn't bear all responsibility, but the guy I think is most interesting the whole thing is Jolly West. So he was a scientist at the Hayd Ashbury Free Clinic in San Francisco. He was someone who, once M.KLTRA was discovered, he didn't have any record tying him to it for the longest time. And then finally someone dug it up and was able to find communication that then tied him back

as like being their top researcher. And my researcher, I mean, he was the guy that was overseeing all of the testing on like unsuspecting people. What better place in that time period to have subjects running around? Because Haydashbury was a very low-rent area. It was, I don't want to say it was a bad area because it was just people that were kind of victims of their circumstances. It was a poor income community, but it was during, wasn't it during the summer of love and everything in Sanford? So it was a I guess a community where you would not want for lack of

ties subjects. There would always be somebody needing to come into the free clinic for care and assistance. A lot of addicts. A lot of drug users, prostitutes. If someone needs to disappear, probably somebody that you can get away with not having a lot of questions asked if that came to the worst case scenario. Yeah, you got people living on the street that don't have a physical address and have no tie to anybody besides writing a letter every now and then if those people go missing those people go missing and aren't worried about for a while but um kind of getting back to where got leave had started they wanted to bring it kind of

under more of a medical study which i'm sure at that point they wanted to see that but they also probably wanted to say hey we're not just testing the stuff on random soldiers or prisoners we want to get some actual medical advice. I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that there were probably, I would think, by like the Geneva Convention and everything, there were probably rules against what you couldn't do as far as wartime or advocate warfare applications for like testing on people. There had to have been that kind of, especially after the Nazis did it, that had to be one thing that was completely addressed in the Geneva Convention.

What you couldn't do with prisoners and what you could do as far as like, subject testing. Well, and then the Nuremberg rules, too, were those Yes. Those would have been in effect. Anything established during the Nuremberg trials? Yes, I'm sure that was then worldwide precedent. And so I think being that this was probably kind of during the boom of pharmacology,

there were so many, it was like the Wild West. If you could claim it that you were doing it for medical research, people are like, well, I don't really understand medical research. So I guess you could be doing it for that. you're kind of under the I don't think you're under anything at that point I don't think there's almost like a little veil of ignorance though yeah there's very little oversight I think

well they just they didn't know and I think the fact that they started this internationally it was very slow to be found out stateside and the new name given to Project Bluebird was Project Artichoke that actually probably makes sense

because during your initials trials you would be very sloppy. You would have very inconsistent results. And so the whole point here is this thing has to stay hidden. So you can't have someone remembering exactly what's happening or see something because regardless of who there, they could then go to the police and be like, hey, I may have gone into this brothel or this person's apartment, but there were guys in suits that actually injected me with something. You guys might want to check this out. Like they had to kind of beta test essentially overseas to find out, hey, how much can we dose these people and have their them be susceptible but not really remember it and everything.

So once they did that, I think then they felt more comfortable bringing it back to the U.S. and be like, we feel like we can be a little bit more in the dark now with this. We're not so easy to find out. Let us, let's proceed. And they haven't gone so far yet with the chemical testing. They're still overseas. And the operatives that were running the camps and the testing overseas were told that one of the things that they need to start. doing is during the examination and when they're watching them, they need to start recording them and

then sending the recordings back so there can be further examination done by more scientists stateside to see these reactions and what's going on. Yeah, compare if it's the same type of reactions that we're getting here. Well, and let medical professionals take a look at them, which to me seems like probably the best thing that you can do. And hopefully the medical professionals, like, what did you just do to that guy? Why in the world are you still doing this? Like this, this was tainted and bad from step one.

Well, and then, so eventually they're just like, well, fuck hypnosis. This isn't working enough. We got psychopharmacology now. So when they were doing their tests, and this kind of reminds me if I'm looking for something to kind of put a, put an image of the situation, the opening scene off of a pineapple express. Oh, yeah. Or they got Bill Hater and they're in the bunker. I feel like a big old pile of favchacks. Fuck.

you. So they come to the result that THC is bad for what they're looking for. Yeah, they were getting results from it, but it wasn't what the results were that they were looking for. Because why just people being like, hey man, like, where are we fighting? Why are you

dressing this shit on me, dude? Like, you want to go get, like, a burger? You're going to catch more flies by bringing me in a pizza than you are if you keep trying to shock me. Speaking of honey, can I get some peanut butter? that didn't work so somehow the next

step up is I don't know I guess it's if you do consider marijuana gateway drug probably the next thing that you're going to try is cocaine eventually if it's at a party and the results that they found with the cocaine first off they were testing cocaine on people that had schizophrenia

which if you're looking to get a don't start like what do you call it? Don't start at a baseline of just like no discernible mental issues. Like we're gonna test on people. Well, I can see because then they could just blame anything on their schizophrenia. Like if something happened.

But at the same time, you're like, isn't the whole point of this to be able to do it to like anybody, like a normal person that had this? It's like, why isn't that cocaine working on this other person? They're just cleaning their house a lot. Well, and what person? Are you getting in a schizophrenic that's taking the cocaine? Is it, are they seeing different things now?

When you wrote cocaine better but inconsistent, all I could see was being like, well, yeah, I could see it being better than it with inconsistent. You jack somebody up on a bunch of coke and they're just going to be telling you a lot of information. And within that information, there might be some good information, but other times they might just be telling you about their fucking car. Yeah, and that's, I think what they found was they had, like they were getting some results. because like you say, they were talking a mile a minute, their inhibitions had dropped. But the information wasn't shit that they were asking about, I'm sure. Like, the guys were probably talking about going back and cleaning their cells later

or that they forgot to do something. They forgot to get something. Their next step up, the drug testing ladder was heroin and mescaline. And they found that they were just too unpredictable as to what outcomes that they were getting. If you're giving somebody a lot of heroin or mescaline, That already has mental issues as well. Yeah. Yeah, they're not starting.

You're not getting a good control in a normal human being when you're doing it. But the downfall is you can't give more heroin or mescaline to try to trigger some kind of outcome. Because eventually if you just give them too much, they just gnawed off an OD. Like there's no... With cocaine, I think there's a pretty much like a higher ceiling

where you can bring them back. But heroin is the opposite where it just drops you so low that eventually you're going to... to pass out and your heart's going to stop, which at this point, at this point, how many people do you think they killed? Because they didn't know what the dosage was. I'm talking about during

the, like, European trial shit. I think more than anybody would ever want to admit. Yeah. I think it was probably... Because after you kill the first person, you're going to be like, uh, should we not do that much next time? They're like, well, maybe it was just because it was this person. They're like, okay, but if we kill two

in a row with this dose, we'll lower it a little bit. You start to have to assign value. to what you're giving you. Yeah, the guy kills that second person. He's like, ooh, he's like, this guy's like 20 pounds heavier than that first guy. Should we maybe like find a guy in between them? Same size, same dose? They kill that third person.

He's like, you were right, man. It was too much. And I'm not saying that that's what happened. I hope beyond all hope that they didn't kill anybody, but we also understand how this whole thing works. Like this wasn't. Their initial tests were with prisoners of war, man. There's a reason why we test shit on animals and mice and all the things now

because we've seen what happens when you start testing on humans. So what ends up happening in Harold Abramson ends up dosing Gottlieb? Yeah. So this is where things really start to go downhill. They aren't on the up and up now, but as soon as Gottlieb first tests out LSD, and Harold Abramson had worked before with Green. Is he another scientist?

In the earlier days, yeah. Okay. He was a member of the CIA, but Gottlieb wanted to see the effects firsthand of what LSD could do. So he asked Abramson to go ahead and dose him so he could see the effects kind of firsthand, which I'm a big proponent of. Correct. So this was obviously him saying, hey, don't let me know when you're going to do it, but at some point do it. Because he was just going to do it himself if he was going to do it as like a planned thing.

Yeah, I think he wanted somebody who had more knowledge of like how to administer it though. Just to, because you could probably read up and say it. but if you're doing drugs with somebody that you don't know, you're not going to trust them as much as somebody that you do know has been through it. I guess depending on what delivery method they were using. If it was injecting it, then I would imagine you would have to have someone do it for you just to make sure your hand was being steady and everything

and just make sure it was the correct amount. I think with Gottlie, the other side of that could be like, hey, don't let me know when you're going to do this because the whole point of this is to be able to, do this when people aren't expecting it. I need to see if this can do something to me when I'm not expecting it or if I'm able to override that. These people are fucking scumbags, but what I'm saying is that if this guy's at all

like analytical thinker, he's going to be trying to do, like, if he's trying it on himself, I feel like the trial would be how he would go ahead and administer it. Maybe. I could definitely see that just because of the different delivery methods that they really tried on these people. But when he did it, this was Pandora's shitbox being open for this whole project because he loved it. He absolutely loved it. He thought that this was the way that they were going forward in the future, that they would win every...

He cracked that door to the fifth dimension. Yeah, he had himself a time. And he loved it so much that when they move forward with it... Do you know what I see in this situation? You remember the South Park episode where they would be cheesing with the cat spray in their face? They set up to projector and then it scares the cat and it shoots the... Yes. Do you remember what Randy and Kenny would both see?

Heavy Metal, the chick with the big boobs? They would go into the land of heavy metal where it was just the hills of boobs and everything was boob themed and everything. That's all I see with like this guy going on an LSD trip is just like... It's your one-way ticket to midnight! And just flying on the boob bird into the castle of boobs. Yeah, he was, that's probably, and I do, I wonder how many times he tested it on himself before they move forward. Like, was this just a one and done?

And he's like, yes. Or was this like five times where every single time he was able to kind of replicate the same. Did he ever have a bad trip too? Yeah. Or was he like, shit, I had a bad, can I not do this anymore? Like, and yeah. Well, and if you do have a bad trip, you tested it on people that you don't really care about. So it doesn't matter at that point.

So when he moves forward with it and starts distributing. in the LSD, he tells them to start testing it on volunteers. And if they do know, great. If they don't know, better. So we're giving major psychoactive drugs. What did the volunteers, what did they think they were volunteering for? It was just kind of like a blind study. They did, when they would take them to these parties or these outings, I think they called them retreats.

You would know that there was a chance that it was going to happen. it like his hors d'oeuvres were being passed out. There were certain hors d'oeuvres that were dosed or there were certain parts of the meal that were dosed where they could watch them and they could study the effects. I'm sure there was some type of explanation for it that did not provide them all of the information. Yeah. Let's just go ahead and assume that. We have this new study. We want to test it out.

Would you be willing to do it? I'm sure they didn't say that they were high-powered Psycho Act is because there was probably not a lot of people that would have volunteered. Do you like dragons? It's fucking question number one on the volunteer form. I mean, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So the varying reactions that they were getting over in the German prisons were just enough to where they could write reports saying that there were, like, actual benefits that were coming out of it.

And it doesn't bode well that they were saying that about the Germans because 18 months in, Gottlieb had no proof of positive results. So they've been doing this for 18 months and he had no hard evidence that this was something that was working. In the way that they had stated it would work as far as like what, like, do you think they're pushing at this point

for it actually being full on mind control or just prisoner interrogation or information? I would probably say, I know they know that it's working. I know for a fact that Godleave knows that it was working, but for the intended purposes, like you're talking about, I don't think that they were getting a whole lot.

And depending on the dosage levels that they were getting, you could probably get somebody to admit to just literally anything on it, which was probably some of the positive results that they got. Yeah. But at the same time, if those people go crazy and work themselves into a heart attack or something before they get to that level, or if they're just saying whatever they can to make the process stop, you're not getting good info.

So even at this point, though, regardless of the results aren't there, Dulles gets appointed the director of the CIA in 53, and since this is his baby, he's going to go ahead and green light M. K. Ultra for what would be $300,000 at the time, but it ends up coming out to $3 million today. I don't know what secret projects get now, but $3 million is a hell of a lot. And $300,000 back then, I'm sure. I feel like for this, yes, but I feel like right now there's secret projects that no one even thinks about, that there is just millions and millions and millions of dollars poured into.

Ridiculous stuff too. There's coffers and defense budgets and different money that's earmarked for things that we'll never know about. Can you design a missile that can zigzag a little bit better? Like here's $10 million, try to figure it out. Oh, you didn't figure it out? Okay, next. I would say more than probably 10 million. They were probably...

I'm just saying that that seems just simple like handing out. That's a check that you just hand out. Yeah, it's... You don't even get to write a big check like you get, like Happy Gilmore style. You just get a regular check for that much money. So I think at this point is kind of when Gottlieb's able to kind of branch out. his network and start creating these safe houses because he starts distributing LSD to like hospitals for controlled studies, opens his safe houses in Greenwich Village. That one's run by

George Hunter, right? Yeah, George Hunter White. Okay. And he was another guy that was just on the outside. He had been a spy and kind of worked his way through the CIA, but he definitely didn't have the moral compass that you would hope somebody running a place that was a safe house where you're taking people back to and giving them large doses of drugs. Well, and look where you're opening the safe houses. So in the 50s, Greenwich Village, regardless of what it is now, and I pretty sure Greenwich is probably still a pretty progressive place in New York. I think that's...

But then it would have been even more so. And so you're finding these cities or locations within these cities where you're going to have people that are a little bit more... Is it more trusting or desperate? Is it a combination? Probably more desperate. Their means aren't as good, so they're going to be more willing to go along with whatever you.

It's like an open-mindedness that's forced by desperation or hardship or something like that, I feel like. Yeah, I could definitely see that. So White starts bringing in people that we're kind of talking about of lower means and drug addicts. And this is where the testing is really happening. But it's just him watching. them at this point. And eventually he starts to realize, hey, I have a crash pad. I have government immunity from fucking anything. I'm going to start bringing my buddies over here to party. I'm going to start bringing women over here that I have interest in to party. If I'm slipping

them drugs and their inhibitions drop, boom, I'm right up there. And so he starts bringing back not test subjects, but like friends that are becoming test subjects, like people that he wants to party with. He's treating it basically like his own little bachelor pad with Carplanche to do whatever he wants. And I don't know what his notes look like at that point. But Gottlieb tells him that

he wants more results on unknowing subjects and he wants them to be recorded too so they can do the same thing like they were talking about over in Germany where there were other people that could watch the recording and see the outcomes of what's going on. And that's

I don't know. I feel like that's not a big ass because he's already done it before. But the unknowing subjects, like the fact that you're not telling people, hey, come over and party now, you're saying, hey, come over, let's hang out, let's have a good time. No drugs. I'm not going to give you any drugs. Like, we can have all the alcohol we want. I might slip some LSD in there, but I'm not going to tell you that. And then go from there and watching it.

Hey, buddy. The fact that you're mentioned in no drugs kind of makes me think there's going to be drugs involved. You said no drugs three times. Well, and then you get a situation where it's kind of like a series of events where, you know, you got Frank Olson who goes on a work retreat and gets dose without his consent. What ended up happening there? This, we wanted this one to be a little conspiracy-ish. And I have, I have one too that's pretty conspiracy-ish that I'm going to stop you right before we hit the operation in Sanfran that I want to tell you about. So the timing matches up.

So Frank Olson had been working with. the laboratories, he was a scientist, and he was creating a lot of the compounds that they were making. And he had kind of... Huh? That's a chemist. What did I say? Scientists? Jesus Christ.

We're a reputable... Did I say a scientist? Well, aren't all chemist scientists? I'm just busting your balls. Okay. But I wonder, not all chemists are scientists, but all scientists are chemists. No, maybe backwards. Is this a mustache pedophile?

we're getting there but Olson didn't really have like a lot of good feelings towards what they were doing so he gets invited on this retreat up in I think it was up in the mountains

in kind of like northern New York and ends up getting to us with LSD without his consent and just kind of completely wigs out he he makes it through but he comes back home and he's having trouble and he's talking to his wife about not really feeling great about it.

And then within two weeks, he ended up jumping out of a 10th story window at a hotel through the glass and commits suicide and kills himself. So here's the thing. So Frank working on it and seeing all the stuff that comes through, regardless of he's just on the scientific side of creating the compounds, he's probably got an idea of what they do because that feedback has to get back to him in case he needs to make changes to it. So I'm sure when they dose him, he's like, okay, I fucking know what just happened.

So at this point, he gets dosed, goes home, is able to make it home. But at that point, when he knows he gets dosed unknowingly, he probably knows he has a target on his back. And at some point in regards if he tries to go to the authorities and someone, you know, if he goes to a police station or tries to go to someone he thinks he can trust and he can't, I think that's what ends up leading to this. I don't think that sounds even conspiratorial. No, and, um, we're going to talk about a lot of the shit. Do you want to go into that conspiracy now or do you want to wait until after we get through this stuff? No, if we're talking about it now, we're going to go with it, yeah.

So after he gets dosed and comes back to work, he goes and sees an independent psychologist and tells the independent psychologist basically everything. Like he goes through all the things that he's doing. He tells him that he's really starting to have. a lot of concern about what he's doing as far as it being secret and he wants to leak it. And is this part you saying he is a record of him doing this? Okay, okay. So Dr. Patient Confidentiality obviously at that point should cover that stuff. If you're telling a psychologist that that should be it. Yes. Unfortunately, the independent psychologist that he went to directly goes to the CIA

and tells them exactly what he said. Well, here's the thing that too, if you have people, sorry, this operation is supposed to be, you know, kept hush-hush. So you're only going to have a certain number of people within this operation. It's probably not huge to keep it compartmentalized. So the people that are in charge of this at the same time probably know who the people in this operation are talking to. So especially if they're keeping it on, Frank Olson, and they dosed him. They're obviously keeping close eye on him. If he goes and talks to an independent psychologist, they either get to that psychologist beforehand or after,

and it's like, what do you say? That's true. They probably had a tail on him for everything that he did. These guys are fucking slimy as fuck, man. We're going to discuss so much of the shit that they did here even just coming up is going to be bad.

Well, and they have to keep any, there's no loose end that they can leave out there. Everything has to be covered up because this is a major national thing that's going on. Like, this is the government, the one organization institution that you should trust. They've gone outside there. They've stepped outside their reach

from even what their program. Graham probably said it was going to be doing, that if they find out it's not just a public blowback, they know that they're going to be prosecuted. Yeah. So after they find that out, they are back in, I believe it's New York, and Olson goes out to dinner with two of the higher-ups and the CIA that are in the same operation that are a part of MK Ultra. And he sees a psychologist one more time.

They go and have dinner. Olson says, hey, I'm feeling better. I think that I might have freaked out a little bit and overreacted. My mind's kind of coming back. Everything's going okay. So the two guys go great. That's awesome. That's fantastic.

That night, him and one of the guys that he went to dinner with, I forget their names, shared a hotel room. And all of a sudden, all the people that were outside on the street that day, hear this big glass shatter, and then they see Olson laying on the street. and they send everybody up to his or they send the police up to his room they find the guy that he went to dinner with huddled in the bathroom just talking to himself not making any sense and they called down to get the paramedics there and find out that there were two calls that had just recently been made from the hotel room and that seems a little suspicious because neither one of them were to or the second one was to the police but the first one was to someone else so whether that's him calling back in his higher ups and saying, yo, this guy just went nuts and jumped out the window or it's done.

And when they did the autopsy on Olson, they found that he didn't have any glass embedded in his forehead or his chest. So him running at the window, putting his head down to break through the glass to jump through if he did commit suicide, he would have glass that was embedded in his head or his chest. He also had a decent-sized gash over his left eye that couldn't have come from coming out the window.

So things started to get a little suspicious, and his family had actually, in recent years, I want to say it might have been the 70s or 80s, pushed back and said this was wrongful death. He didn't commit suicide. The government had something to do with this, and they got paid, like, I think it was 750,000 in hush money to just make it go away.

So the official report was that he had committed suicide, but there was enough there that there were enough questions to where his family was actually able to come back to, hey, we think you murdered him. And they said, well, we don't want this to get out. How much money would you like to make this more? We didn't murder him. And to show you how much we didn't murder him,

here's his $750,000. Yeah, this is us just being sorry that he committed suicide. It was clearly, I think at that point, something where it was definitely a cover-up. Okay, I got another incident that happened, that's for, and that there's some conspiracy behind two, P.B.B.E. Yeah. Okay.

M.K. Ultra. But, so it was in the fifth. 50s, there was an airman at Lockland Air Force Base, and he was taking part in experimental treatments for migraines. He'd been in, like, I think, a two-year study for it. Well, the guy that was in charge of that, his name was Jolly West. Oh, so the fellow from Hayton, Nashbury? Yep. So there was a night in, I want to say it was, I think it was San Francisco. I don't know where Loughlin Air Force Base is. Sorry, if I'm getting this wrong. Okay. Anyway, the town were Loughlin Air Force bases.

There was a three-year-old girl that went missing. It was really hot out. Her family didn't have air conditioning. This is going to sound really bad when I say this, but her parents went to a bar to get inside where there was air conditioning and everything. And her and her like, like, six-year-old brother were out in the parking lot playing. The girl gets snatched up. And they find, I want to say it was two, like, it might have been two MPs at the base,

find this guy named Jimmy Shaver, an airman there at the base. He comes out of the woods by like a checkpoint or something or if they were doing patrols, but he's got scratches all over him. He's got no shirt on scratches and blood all over him. That's usually a bad sign.

And has no idea what's going on. Has no idea where he's at, what's happened or anything like that. And they tracked back where he was and they found the little girl. And unfortunately, like, she'd been raped and murdered. and the guy that so not only was Jolly West participating in the migraine study and everything, he was also the guy that was assigned to him as his criminal psychologist to get him ready to stand trial.

So one of the theories on it is that this migraine trial, Jolly was using this and some of the stuff that he had figured out during him, K Ultra to try to, he wasn't really, it wasn't a migraine trial. It was, they were using this guy to test something else. Poorly veiled migraine trial. Correct. And it might have been something even to the degree where they'd figured out about, you know, what did you say, the amnesiac, the amnesiac wall. Yeah.

Or how are you pronounced? Does that make sense? The wall of amnesia. The wall of amnesia. So this thing was really suspected that he had, because he couldn't literally remember anything. They found no alcohol in his system when they had tested him, no alcohol. They didn't find any drugs or anything like that.

But that's why it's suspected that he was able to be triggered by something. And that he was unsuspectingly triggered during that night, kidnapped this little girl and murdered her. So I, you know, just the ties to that, like that guy that was, you know, the head researcher for MK. Ultra happened to have just been tied to this guy. There's too many connections there. So 55 though is when GHW, George White, opens a safe house in San Francisco. And is there a better operational name than what they chose, man?

Yeah. Before you say that, just because this is probably my favorite part of this whole thing, is just the name that they gave it. But LSD does still stay in your system. It can be detected, but does not show in standard saliva tests. So if they were testing in his system, the guy that you were talking about that murdered that little girl, I wonder. But at this point though, do they even have an LSD test? I guess that's a fair point. They probably didn't.

At this point, it's so probably, I'm sure that it has gotten out some type recreationally, but not to the degree where an entire test was. I didn't even think about that, but I was just thinking, I wonder if they got back to toxicology and saw it. And they said, okay, it wasn't his system. this may have been what led to it. No. But yeah, that's right. Okay, now on to probably the best project that I've ever heard. You go right ahead.

So, White at that point in time, found out that he had gotten a better chance at a promotion, and he took the promotion. It was just in San Francisco. And so he goes and talks to, Gottlieb says, hey, sorry, I appreciate everything that you've done for me. I'm going to take this other job. It's out in San Francisco, so can't keep doing it. Gottlieb's like, what are you talking about?

Why in the world do you think this is going to stop our organization? We got away with this shit in New York. Do you like doing what you're doing in New York? Yeah. Can you imagine going and doing that in San Francisco? Yeah. Okay. You're not done.

We're just going to move your... Even further away from oversight. Yeah. Because at this point, how much oversight do you think was, was like, regional. They didn't have these office. They probably had CIA offices

and FBI offices out there. They did, but I'm talking about like the people that would really be paying attention to this type of stuff. Yeah, you're on a different coast. So they decide that they're going to run this operation out there and they open a safe house

and that project is called Project Midnight Climax. Oh, daddy. Which is just that is the name that you give this project. There's no other name No, it's so badass sounding, but it perfectly encapsulates. Like, you get operations, the name's like it's Operation like Porpo's Fart. And it's the operation has nothing to do with even the water.

It's like, oh, no, we're just building a remote monitoring base like in Alaska. Yeah. Operation Bluebird that this starts out with, or Project Bluebird, that has absolutely no meaning to this. And so, yeah, God, midnight climax. So there's nothing more on the nose. Like, if you're looking for incidents that have happened by the government, and you're looking at it by the project name. This is one that pops out

or like you're reading through them. You're like, Bluebird, Artichoke, paper clip. Nope. Nope. No, no. Midnight Climax. Oh, they made guys come. It was just absolutely the perfect name for them. So what they would do here is they would establish brothels. And the rooms themselves would have one-way mirrors

where after the prostitutes would go ahead and bring the Johns end, the observers would watch them and then they would dose them and they used several different ways of dosing them so they would either put something in their drinks they tried aerosol and how they would do the aerosol so they wouldn't get the prostitute

is she'd be like okay sweetie I'm going to the bathroom she would leave they would then pump it into the room I'm not sure how that occurred like can you imagine pump in a room full of LSD for the ventilation yeah yeah and then she would come back in and you would basically be able to observe them. Of course, they would observe having sex.

But at the same time, I'm wondering how much of that was the point of it was like, okay, now get him to do this. If you can, like, suggest he does this. Like, can you get him to let you do this to him?

Can you get him to say this? Yeah, they, that was kind of the overarching idea behind this. And I thought something weird that was pointed out in more than one thing, that I watched and listened to. So when White was watching behind the one-way mirrors,

the only piece of furniture that he had was a portable toilet that he would sit on. Is that a masturbatory receptacle? Or is that so you don't have to get up if the getting's good? I would assume if you're going to do that just into like a cup or something. Yeah, well, then you're behind a wall.

There's nobody else going to see it. I think this is what it was. He didn't want to miss a thing. So he just sat on a, He probably was in a situation where he was in one of these sessions. And he's like, I got to fucking take a piss or shit. And he's like, okay. And he ducked out for like two minutes.

And he came back in. They're like, oh my God, you missed it. They were getting dressed and finished out. Yeah, or like, what did he do? And he's like, you're not even going to believe this. Did you get that? Get what? Exactly.

And he's like, I'm never leaving again. I need a toilet in here on wheels, preferably so I can just scoot it around the room. What is that? But they did find. that when you mix the LSD with sex, they would tell the sex workers after, like, to ask them questions about like their jobs or their families. And these guys were so euphoric and happy from banging and being on LSD that they did find that they would start to drop that wall down and start talking about more personal things.

So they did have some sort of a good review, enough that they actually opened up another one in San Marin and ran the same game. one of Gottlieb's like big ideas that he wanted to do was he wanted to dose an entire room at the same time. So he packaged up a bunch of LSD in a canister and then sent it over to San Francisco and they were having a big like a party or something out in the parlor. And they released the LSD canister and realized that it didn't work because all the windows were open and it was a breezy. day. So all the LSD just blew out into the populace. There were also studies that they were, that MK.K. Ultra, aside from Midnight Climax, which I think takes the top cake as the best of these operations, they would have graduate

students from like the university that would be part of these programs. And like part of their job was to meet people, bringing them into their apartments and everything. And then basically be like, yeah, like come up and party with us and everything. And everything. thing and their job was to also just observe these people. I don't think that the graduate students, because they wanted to make sure that they weren't doing anything that they would then report back as like horrible. The way they framed it to these graduate students is like, this is for medical research. You're not going to be doing anything harmful to these people. We just want you to administer this unsuspectingly. And then literally just observe them. Have a nice time. Your job is not to

suggest these people do anything. Just kind of tell us how they act. And so they were able to even have more field testing for normal people. serve some appetizers. They were just literally branching out to all these different things. Make a night of it. So I know there's a couple more things in there. When you were talking about the drugs being sent to prisons to be tested on the inmates, that's going to tie directly into Charles Manson.

And I'm going to go for a while on that. And what? Whitey Bulger. And Whitey Bulger. That's right. So, yeah, getting away from Climax at that point, they, M.K. Ultra had so many operations under its umbrella. They had 149 separate operations that were going on under the umbrella of MK Ultra.

So that's literally everything. And there's some terrible, horrible stuff. One that we can touch on. I think it was called Operation Butterfly. Did you look into that? Tell me. So, yeah, Operation Butterfly is very heavy. But they would take children that came from kind of bad circumstances as far as like if they were abused.

or if they were in, what do you call it? The foster system? No, the big house is orphan Annie. Orphanages. Orphanage. Orphanage Annie. That sounds right. What was the building where orphaned Annie was?

If only they had a name for it. They would take them and they would start testing on them young. And one of the things that they would try to allegedly use them as, was the girls they would basically give code words to as far as... Sparrows. Is this the sparrow thing and the Black Widow thing? The one where they would send the kids in to do sexual favors for diplomats and different things to try to get information out of them? Yes.

It's a form of that. So in the Marvel, I feel like I always tie this shit back to anything like this. That's our standard of... knowledge. I know. So, okay, so in the Marvel universe, the movie Black Widow, so the Black Widows were Russian girls that were taken from a young age and put through mind control and training to become like these assassins and they could also, you know, what would you call them, like Sittuctruses, like, you know what I mean? They were able to perform all these tasks. And then what was the one I was just thinking about even before that? What did I say before Black Widow?

Temptress? No. obviously wasn't that important. Sparrow. Sparrow. Yeah, there was the movie with Jennifer Lawrence, I think, in which she was also a Russian undercover agent. But I don't know if she could actually be, I don't know if she was just brainwashed or had code words.

But I get exactly what you're saying. That they were people that had these set of skills maybe or could be given a code word to then snap into that mindset or do that job. Well, and they were kind of like spies at that point, Whereas one of them had come out and she, bad research on my port, but she ended up marrying one of the people that were running the operation. And they moved up to Alaska and her husband basically went through and deprogrammed her. And after she was deprogrammed, she came out and kind of blew the whistle on them and said that they had done these tests on these children.

and she had had memories of, I think it was visiting Gerald Ford's office for sex. Jesus. Which, granted, this girl had been through so much trauma before. Like, she had, her dad was taking pornographic pictures. There were reasons to doubt her story. Yeah. And she would say these words that she remembered that were code words, and there were other people that were kind of from similar circumstances started coming out.

Yeah, saying, I remember this too. This is something that happened. And it's a little bit murky just because of who the actual details come out from and what they've uncovered about it. But there's enough there to make you go, well, what would have stopped them from doing that? Yeah, of course. So it's one of those in the 149 that they had. I don't know. I pray that there was one super secret one and there was 150 just because that 150 sits better than 149 in my mind.

The whole thing is, is they only know there was 1409. we'll get to this, there's only 140 operations known with the information that they had to even trace it back, because all the records remember got torched or burned. And they had to go back through financial records to even see where money was allocated, and that's the only reason they contract this. So what's to say that money allocated to 75 of these operations wasn't then reallocated to a super secret one or something? Yeah, 75 turns into 150 real quick. Yeah, exactly.

So kind of tying that back to operating on inmates. So this was all over the country, and I want to say, I'm probably going to get the state wrong, but it's in the area of the Midwest, North Midwest, so like Ohio or Iowa. Can't remember which president was. But at some point, Charles Manson was incarcerated at a prison in, was it? Indiana, I think. Terror Hope, maybe. So tying this all back, someone that was operating within that prison as a psychologist, Jolly West.

His fucking name comes up so much in this. The same guy that was in California? Yes. So at some point he had dealings with Charles Manson. So at some point Charles Manson gets out. And he heads for the coast. So he ends up heading to the San Francisco area. This is weird.

Okay. Because that's where Hate Nashberry is. This is where it all ties in. So during his time in San Francisco, I think Charles Manshberra. and does kill someone, but he ends up getting brought in for it. And instead of being held, even with all of his prior records, because he's had prior violent records and things,

why he was in jail, he keeps getting let out. And so one of these things it gets tied back to that's kind of, I don't even think it's tinfoil had to based on everything else these guys did. One thing that Jolly West did was he was kind of running or working with that Haydashbury free clinic. And people would come in there to get like just basic medical care, but a lot of it was like, you know, STD testing and like, reproduce that kind of stuff.

Yeah. So Charles Manson would bring in his girls to Hayd Ashbury for medical care to get tested and treated. So he develops this relationship there with Jolly West or keeps this relationship going. And the whole kind of, I don't want to even say theory because I do actually, part of me does believe that this is possible and kind of likely to pen, you know, with all the other information that's out. He starts to teach Charles.

Manson to use LSD to use on his followers to enhance suggestion and brainwashing and stuff. So while, because a lot of this stuff has come out about Charles Manson that Charles Manson during all these parties, he wouldn't do drugs during a lot of his parties. He would dose everybody else. And then that would be his method of maintaining control over everybody. And so the whole point is, is Jolly West saw an opportunity and he was like, I could just use this guy. and use him as a testing ground, take a step back from responsibility from it, but then also have almost a direct control over it. Because in a way, I think West was controlling Manson to a degree,

and then Manson controlling his followers. And West's connection essentially with, you know, because at this point isn't Dulles still the CIA director, at this point he is or I want to say somebody else comes in, Because then at some point, Richard Helms comes in, who's also part of this too. So he gets the CIA director. 74 is when things really start to hit for. Actually, Dulles ends up losing his job in 61.

So this would have been after Dulles would be in power. Yeah, but I think after Dulles was Helms. I'm not sure, but I know. It could have been because the guy that runs rough shot over it doesn't happen until the 70s. So at several points, Matson does get brought in and should be tried and incarcerated, but he keeps getting let out. And when they have interviewed, there was a guy that wrote a book. I'm trying to remember his name.

The book's called Chaos. And it's about this whole thing. He basically was going to write an article about Charles Manson for a magazine. I think it was like either Rolling Stone or something like that. And he found that in writing this article that there was all this information, he was able to connect these dots and find people. So he wrote an entire book. It was like written over the course of 20 years.

But there are indications that, when they would interview the cops that had brought in Manson and wrote up the reports and were responsible for making sure that he got booked and everything like that and to get the paperwork shuffled up for like trial, that they were stopped at certain points by people higher up than them that told them that it's past their pay grade, not to worry about it, to lose the stuff and let him go, cut him loose. So much what you're saying is firing off on so many different Manson points

because he, I don't know if maybe it was his connections, and I don't know when all this happened, but the fact that he was buddies with one of the beach boys and did write music with them, I wonder if that kind of helped the CIA to wonder, like, could we start putting messaging in music, and could that music start to go to the masses? Like, was that maybe a branch off of using Manson

because he did have that kind of connection. I don't know if at that point, because I think once he started establishing, I'm trying to remember the point, and we're going to get, Manson's going to get us in his own episode and everything, so I don't want to go too far. But I don't know what point he migrated more to the Hollywood Los Angeles area

and shacked up at that guy's ranch or whatever it was. I can't remember what it was called. Well, and two, the second thing is, is whatever Manson does after he's programmed and taught about the LSD only becomes the greatest, easiest case study ever because no matter what you do, you know eventually he's going to do something that's going to get caught and he's going to be trying. Yeah, I even look at it at it this way. So just based on, you look at Manson in San Francisco where he looks like he's more, he's directly committing his crimes.

And then when he moves, he's then having everybody else do it and he's the one that's not essentially has his hand on the weapon. because he could that's the reason I think he lasted so long when he went to L.A. He was a puppeteer. Yeah, exactly. And then that's the only way

that they ended up tying it to him is they were able to get something out of one of his followers or someone turned on him or something was like, yeah, he told us to do this. Well, you get all of the total case report from the police investigating it to be able to go back

and look and say, okay, he used this. There were still, there were still situations in which police officers had kept their arrest reports, not once it moved up, but something, there was either one,

I can't remember one or two cops, there were like, the arrest reports were on record, so we showed that he got, and so they were able to tile this stuff in to find out when he got let go, but never really who ordered him to let go, get let go.

Yeah, I have a tough, moral part in my brain that tells me not to jump that far that the government would basically create a bowl and then set them up in a China shop to make all that happen. But knowing everything that we know about the government, it's not that fantastical of a leap for me to make. It isn't, especially when you think of the fact that what if the, you know, the fact that the government, they're responsible regardless. Because what I'm saying is they're funding it. It's their responsibility to know what's going on to keep oversight on it.

What I'm saying, though, is how much of this was individually driven by a few, different people outside of this stuff like when it all came out and everything of course these people were questioned and everything on everything that happened on this kind of stuff i don't think anybody ever heard what happened of it no and we'll get to that because they ran a very good game during a lot of the congressional hearings that they had afterwards but to stick along with the criminal standpoint wady bulger the very famous mobster was a part of a documented part of MK Ultra and they would

offer these inmates that were willing kind of the higher profile guys they would say hey help us out with this we'll cut some time off your sentence or we'll give you more favorable conditions anything that we can so Whitey would be let out of his cell and for a week

he would be in confinement and they would give him LSD and test on him and keep going I just smash my hand keep going So he said that after he would get done with these treatments, he would go back into his cell.

And for like the next week plus, he would be depressed. All of his dopamine and everything. His brain chemicals were all so far messed up. Do you think they did that to him? Because I know just from kind of my limited information on him, I'm assuming that as someone that was that high up in organized crime, he was probably pretty tough mentally. And wasn't going to really rat or...

He knew what would happen to him if he rated. Well, and he was, I think, an informant before that, before he finally ended up getting fully arrested. He did work for the government. What I'm thinking, though, is do you start testing on somebody like that as a test? Be like, this person seems pretty mentally like, mentally like sturdy. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, like, I'm going to break this guy to see what I've learned. Like how good and hardened and smart this guy is, can we really put him through the ringer?

Yeah. And their promises ultimately were just lies because he ends up getting sent to St. Quentin after this. So there was no, he got sent to a more dangerous prison. What if he's like, thank Christ. Yeah, I guess you go to a more dangerous place, but they're going to stop giving you LSD on a weekly basis. You're like, listen, I've been having to fight fucking dragons and trolls in fucking Illinois or wherever he was, Indiana. I'll take a more dangerous prison. Fucking San Quentin's going to be a cakewalk.

you all got dragons here? No, no dragons, cool. So this rolls us up into 1960, and at this point, Gottlieb had been disillusioned. And he had had, the reason that I think that Dulles is the guy that you pin most of this to

is because he was the one that brought Gottlieb in, and you never saw any red flags. From that first day, the Gottlieb started taking LSD before this all happened. It was like the LSD turned on the frat boy in his brain, And he would go out to San Francisco and hang out with White and he's like, get me women, bring me in. And the prostitutes that White was bringing in for midnight climax, he would tell them, hey, you're working for the government now.

So if you get arrested for prostitution or anything like that or trying to bring these Johns in, first off, for every John that you bring in, we're going to pay you $50 to $100 for every caller that you bring in here. second we're going to give you full immunity to where when you get arrested you let us know and we will make sure that that goes away and that you're let out so they had just complete oversight over this whole entire thing and gotley would go out there for the weekends or for a week subsidized prostitution and godlie would do lSD he would do drugs he was creating different things in the laboratory and sending them out to i wonder how much of his success as uh as a chemist, scientist, whatnot, was directly related to things he figured out while he was dripping. It could be, but yeah, he could have been coming up with, hey, this feels great, I wonder if there's something that I can add to this compound to...

Exactly, yeah. Change it. Go ahead, sorry. He's just living a frat boy life for 10 years. He's partying, he's getting laid whenever he wants to because he has these places. I'm sure he tells them to shut off the cameras while he's doing what he's doing.

Sure, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. But he, yeah, I'm gonna need, just the power light. That always stays on.

I'm gonna need you to go ahead and wheel the toilet out so I know you're not sitting there watching me doing my business. But he just basically had the funnest party time for a decade where he, he wasn't getting these results that he wanted, but he was having a good time trying to find the results. Like he was on board for everything. Hey, do something fun and you'll never work a day in your life, right? Yeah.

He had a 10-year party, a 10-year, He was on a binge for 10 straight years. So when he finally comes kind of a round of his senses or when the fucking morality finally weighs on him heavy enough to have him do something, he ends up writing a report on it. Right? Or what does he do? He writes the report that just says that he has absolutely no significant findings for 10 years that they work on this. So is he trying to at this point, do you feel like he's trying to say, we've hit the road, we've hit the roadblock?

I don't think we're going to advance any further than this. Does he want to out? He's ready to exit this point. I think he's already got blood on his hands. He knows it because he was involved with Olson's deal. I wonder at this point, too, as an intelligent person, you've got to realize that you can only get away with this for so long. That someone's going to, like, you've already been at this for what, like, almost 10, like, 7 or 8 years.

And at some point, you've probably run into a couple situations where you almost got caught. And you've got to be like, ugh, this next time could be the time. Yep. Good criminals know how to get away with things. It's like gambling. criminals. You know what to walk away. Yeah, you got to know when to walk away from the table.

And I think at that point he was ready for it. 1961, Dulles loses his job. Funding for M.K. Ultra is cut just down, down, down. And after 15 years, Gottlieb finally just leaves. He'd had enough. He just walked away from the whole entire thing. And which he walked away fairly unscathed. he would be brought under congressional kind of watch where they would question what he did

and he was I think accused of the murder of Olson and brought up on charges for that but all that was dropped obviously. Sometimes it's tied to it. So one thing too that's interesting is the whole Jolly West thing because he wasn't actually on the books. What ended up tying him to this and getting the ball rolling on trying to what resulted in more ties to it. But what initially kicked it off was they were able to find.

letters between Gottlieb and West discussing the project. So they had evidence. So they had evidence. Yeah. And so that kind of like were the breadcrumbs that led to essentially the whole, the whole picnic basket. Huh. So essentially we're, it worked with 74 at this point with the kind of the unofficial,

official, unofficial end of it. Yeah. They, it was more of when Seymour Hirsch, um, he was a, a writer. I don't remember where he worked,

but he was an investigative reporter, and he really starts to pull it to some of these strings and find out a lot of what was going on and starting to expose that to the public. And after he had started that ball rolling, Olson's family came to the Hirsch and told him, hey, this is what we got going on, this is what's happening,

this is what happened to Frank. He died under mysterious circumstances, and that's kind of what brought everything to the purview of the public. and they were having congressional hearings where they were bringing in people that were associated with MK Ultra, but they had been coached so well on what to talk about that every single one of their stories was different. So there was nothing that they could ever link together to really put like a full perspective on what was going on. Well, and what ends up happening too is it gets brought to the public's attention in 75 by the church committee. So essentially it was known as the Rockefeller Commission.

So this is actually when fucking Rockefeller tying this into a previous episode. Last episode. Yeah, last one. He's vice president at this point, and it's called the Rockefeller Commission to investigate this. Here's the big kicker. The entire investigation was hampered because Richard Helm, who was the CIA director, he ordered that all MK Ultra files be destroyed in 73. They torched so much shit.

But here's the other thing, too, is they had to rely on sworn testimony, direct participants, and basically the small number of documents, that survived the order, a lot of the ties back, and I think I mentioned this before, was they went back and they followed the money to see where money was being dispersed. And then in 77, a Freedom of Information Act request uncovered basically 20,000 documents relating to MKLTRO,

which led to Senate hearings. And then some additional surviving information was declassified in July 20 or 2001. So long after it had happened. Yeah, anybody that is culpable for this is either sold that they're, what are they going to do? They're going to send, no, like, this stuff would just get swept under the rug. It would get, be popular in the news for a little bit.

People would be like, you know, we want retribution or, you know, accountability. Some stuff would happen and then you'd never find out what the end result was. Well, and you're in a another generation removed from what was going on. So it's not a hot button issue at that point. I think that's what a lot of our government is set up to do because, like, like, until it doesn't seem as bad until it seems like listen we've already moved past this guys because the way that i've thought about it before is when you hear about like presidential records being released or anything like that it's usually i want to say there's a 25 year

or it might be a 20 year window given but our presidents are all so old that by the time 20 years is up and all that stuff can be released they're either dead or they're on their way out so excuse me, like thinking about it now or last two presidents, by the time their records can be public information and they can be released, they're going to be triple digits almost or triple digits to where it's not, they're not going to be done long. Yeah. So they're not going to have to see any of the backlash for it.

And this, I think with it being released so far out, it definitely changes it. I just, it was kind of like what we were texting back and forth last night. Do you think MK Ultra is over? Here's what I'm thinking is that if this program got opened, there were probably at least two to three other programs that were in the similar vein, that maybe went a different route, were a little bit quieter, chose a different mode of testing, and that were maybe a little bit more successful, that just, you know, something clicked for somebody and they branched off. They were able to, but what I think probably happened is by the time that it was probably really useful, we had moved past a stage in. its necessity, if that makes sense. We were more maybe in the information age where we could just gather information via, you know, the internet or spies, stuff like that, and it just wasn't worth the cost of this.

I think there were other operations that probably got further that no one ever knew about, and I just think their usefulness. They might still have certain uses or applications. Shit, man, if you even think about it, like, think of how much research, and we've made little snippets about or little jokes about this. Think of how much research goes into, like, marketing or designing of a social media page. Every little thing is thought about, not placed randomly, but it's placed in a position to have you to get a result out of you. Like, where is the save button? Where is the post button?

Where's the thumbs up? Like, whereas the, I think it's used in a different manner that maybe some of the applications for finding out what people responded to or how to work with like the human psyche is more privatized or commercialized now. Yeah, so you basically walked into my next question. Would you say that I was conspiratorily minded if I told you that MK Ultra moved to the public sphere and out of the governmental sphere? No, because that wouldn't be surprising because if you're, looking at it from this, the perspective of who these people, a lot of these key players worked for, they weren't government agents. They were independent contractors that were working for a government entity. And these are just the people we know about from the records we have. Who's to say

there weren't another two or three scientists that then were like, you know what I could do? I could probably go and work for somebody else on this kind of stuff. I'm going to quit and distance myself from you guys and use my talents elsewhere. Take my talents to South Beach. As a marketing guy, I can take my knowledge from EMK Ultra and I can go to McDonald's. And the next McDonald's commercial that comes out is going to be a deliciously poured fountain drink where the bubbles are going everywhere and everything looks great. I'm going to go ahead and show up to basically... I know how many times you have to flash that M on the screen to stick into people's heads.

Because, I mean, all that really is is tricks in your mind and hypnosis almost to try to drive... Have you seen that game? on like either Instagram or whatever where people will like the brand appears above their head and they have to name what product it is just by the logo. So the Pepsi logo which is just the little red

and white circle thing that popped up and they're like Pepsi and then another one popped up and they got like five of them within 30 seconds I'm like that's some type of subliminal identification. It's a supermarket sweep game that I still watch and love. God I haven't watched that and song.

That's such a good show. They did a reboot with Leslie Jones as the host and it's not too bad. bad. It's pretty good. Does she just yell run, bitch, run? Pretty much. God, yes. She's great being the host of it. But yeah, it's subliminal messaging and advertising is one of the biggest things.

There's a reason, there's not, it wasn't by chance that Carl's Judy's like, hey, you know what's greater than burgers if we put a hot chick in it? Like that's subliminal advertising that ties into the mind. And this is exactly what we're talking about with MK Ultra. It's not drug-fueled anymore, but it's those tips and those tricks that make you

desire something. It's a total Pavlov's dog effect. Yeah. To where Pavlov's dog effect, where you can train people and condition people to make decisions based on what they've seen and what they're seeing current. And I've been a victim of it. I'm a constant victim of it online, but it's one of those things where it may not be the secret anymore, but it's something that's transitioned. Just like we talk about technology transitions from the government to the public, this is the exact same thought process of transitioning something that was learned and really honed in a terrible way by the government that's now being used on the masses to purchase fucking anything. It works. Yeah.

Did you have any special fun kind of myths about MK Ultra, maybe some different operations that you saw? No. So I have one And it's This was one thing that kind of sparked me Into going into MK Ultra a long time ago Have you ever heard of an old arcade game called Pollybus? No

I've probably seen it but it doesn't stand out like asteroids Or anything like that would It's release day It was an arcade game that they would put in arcades And it was published by Atari Its release date was allegedly 1981 So this is just an article that I read about it, but it says,

according to Urban Legend, Polybus was an arcade game published by Atari in 1981 at the CIA's request, which is said to have induced various negative psychological effects on players, including amnesia, stress, night terrors, insomnia, nightmares, and eventual suicide. Roughly a month after its supposed release, Polybus disappeared without a trace with no physical evidence supporting its existence. Many have wrote it off as an urban legend.

Polybus is said to have been distributed in Portland, Oregon in 1981, so a very progressive area. People who played it quickly got addicted to it with long lines forming and people often fighting over who got to play next. The Polybus arcade cabinets were visited by men in black who had collected data from the machine supposedly testing the results of the game's psychoactive effects. Many people who played the game suffered from various negative psychological effects. such as insomnia, nightmares and suicide, many stopped playing video games altogether.

The game is often linked to the CIA's project M.K. Ultra, in which they would conduct secret experiments on institutions such as prisons, hospitals, universities

for research on brainwashing, mind altering, control, and the ultimate truth serum. The project was apparently discontinued in 73. I could, yeah, I could see that.

Like, you remember close encounters, the third kind? Yeah. You know how they communicate, with lights. Yeah. I think that there probably is...

They even poke fun of that men in black. Yeah. So I think if there was a steady enough into it, you could find some type of pattern or flashing lights or something based upon probably previous research that we've gathered through horrible means, that you would know that that could induce certain things in people. It's even to say maybe, you know, when you... What if like within the flashing lights there were in?

images. It only occurred during the game, but they were like just one frame images and everything like that. They would be suggestive. I could see that happening. It's, it's too weird to think about a sponsored game. Like Atari signed off on this. By the government. And then all of a sudden it disappears after all this stuff happens. I'm not like, what would be the reason the government would ever commission a game? Like, it's, it's ridiculous. So if it is true in that aspect, then it would be very believable to believe that the purpose behind that game was to find an, openly test a version of mind control or mind alteration or something. Yeah. Well, and even if it's not true, it's a good enough story to make you think about it more than once.

Like that's, to me, this sounds completely logical. Being somebody that's played video games all my life, I could see that this was something that they would throw in an arcade just to test, just to see if this was, if there were subliminal messaging like you're talking about, if there's one frame where something pops up to see how far they could get it into somebody's psyche. Like, were they testing these people and then following them around and trying to drop code words to see if it was working? But the fact that it just up and disappears that fast and it's just gone from the psyche of everybody except for the people that played these games. Here's the last thing I'll say on it.

And I won't go into it more than this because I actually just thought of a one-on-one I want to do. So I feel like if I was ever in the position where I was elected president for the first, like, months, I don't feel like I would get anything done. Because all I would do is I would be like, bring me all of, I'm going to make you a list of all the documents I want you to bring me. Because I want to find out all this shit that I've always had questions about. And I would spend like the first few months I feel like staying up all night and all day pouring over this stuff, just getting answers to everything. So I think one of our one-on-ones should be a list of like the five things that you would first have pulled to review as president. If you got top clearance or if you got top clearance, yeah, that would be a good one. There's a lot of them.

Yeah, it just, the way that MK Ultra was ran opens up your mind to so many potential things that they could have done. And it's just so interesting to think, like, is what you get caught up in, was that an experiment that was done by the government? Yeah. Is that something that has been tested in that way, whereas it wasn't ever above board, but now it's used? Like, I totally believe that there's still certain elements to MK. Ultra that are still active to this day. We have to still be working on it. It's inspired. Yeah, branch all programs, definitely.

All right, man, you got any last comments? No, if something ever seems weird, always question it. There you go. All right, later, guys. Peace. All right, guys, hey, thank you so much for making it through another episode and sticking with us. If you want to kind of follow up on the next upcoming episodes, get some teasers. Adam, can they get us on the Twitter?

We can get us on the Twitter. Our Twitter handle is historically high. That's historically H-I. Nice. And on the Instagram. Our Instagram is historically high pod. That's historically high P-O-D. And what happens if your social media inept?

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