Historically High - Nazi War Criminals: Who Escaped and Who Didn't

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Recognized History tells us that Adolf Hitler killed himself in his bunker with Eva Braun. But it was the Russians who reached Berlin first and discovered his body, totally burned, which doesn't make identification problematic. Oh and because Hitler's dentist also said it was Hitler. Do you see what I'm getting at here.? While it's likely the story we know is the factual story, there's a lot of things that point to a plan of escape.  A Plan you say, what plan could this be? Well buckle up folks because we have several factual stories of Nazi Officers and War Criminals escaping to South America, and some who were hunted down. Support the show Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You got to suck hard. I didn't see anything come out. There you go. There you go. That's a good one. You're going to feel that in a second. Okay. Since we started researching this, I've... I haven't been... I've done research on this, like quite a bit of research on this before, which is why I was excited to do it. But I also hit this point when I'm looking into this kind of stuff, where I have to stop myself and be like, oh, like, oh, like... Like, is it weird that you're getting excited to look into this?

What do you, what do you think that that, not with this topic, we won't like jump into it, but we'll do a little. What do you think the whole like, I mean, I think it's more distinct from, or kind of more prevalent for me, but like what is the obsession with like World War II? Why is it so fucking interesting? I think it's just spots that hit different things in your brain. It's kind of like when we talk about like when you get something that really scratches the natch. Like I just being like a crime guy, a murder guy, a trial guy, all that kind of stuff. If it's anything related to that, I just immediately suck into it. Just like this topic.

I mean, talking about the Nuremberg trials and everything like that, I can love it. So do you feel like you're part of like World War II you like is kind of like the post-World War II stuff when it gets into like the Nuremberg trials and that kind of stuff? I just think it's you kind of get with what you're comfortable with like as far as. is reading and researching, and then you kind of find something else. It's like doing Battle of the Midway. I had zero interest in the Midway when we started it. And then as soon as I got into it,

it was like, oh, holy shit, this makes so much sense. I think that's kind of what I'm getting at is that, I don't know, World War II seems like this thing that if there weren't still people like alive that had been alive during it or even fought net, it would be one of those things where you'd almost question if everything that you hear about happening actually happened. we've had

like does does like does Alexander the Great feel real to you or does it feel like a story to you um the story doesn't seem real but then when you kind of see

like how the world is laid out in that area and just sort of like the well yeah there's evidence that he's real what I'm saying is like when you read about him and hear about him does it seem almost like is it that there's been so much fiction of heroes or villains and people in between and everything,

that it almost feels like even real world, their counterparts almost seem fake. Because of course, those people do inspire characters. And so I think it all just kind of gets mashed together. But like with World War II, it almost feels like kind of thinking back on it. it we don't have anything like that that's ever been experienced in our lifetimes or even a generation like before us like it's great like this is a very good thing that we haven't had to experience yeah exactly well what i'm saying though is like from a i think what's so hard to kind of gauge gauge it is i don't think our generation like i think if you broke down every

generation of what every generation lacked i think ours might be scope or like perspective because like having a like a the world is at war in one way or another like I know that most of the fighting was either Africa the Pacific Europe Russia I mean there was some shit probably going on in India because the or the Indian Ocean everything there was some stuff in Australia well the closest that ever touched us was Hawaii which is what like 1500 miles away from the mainland there was a you boat off of the East Coast that they found. But active, like, damage and stuff.

Yeah. Like, even South America, which we're going to fucking knock out here, um, was kind of untouched by it. But yeah, to like, we don't have anything in our life that completely like COVID, I guess, like how it took over everything for two years. I'm not comparing COVID to World War II by any means.

What I'm saying is that that's the only thing that we have to gauge about a worldwide event, like taking over and being front and center in our lives. And that wasn't an active war. That's so crazy. Like, I don't think we can even, I think it almost seems some of the stuff unbelievable because we don't understand like the scale of what it was. We can't imagine the scale of what it was, the distance that it caught, you know, travel,

the square miles that there were for battlefronts. I think it's more of a perspective as far as, Like this was an event. This was a world event that took place on a world stage that I'm sure everybody all over the world. Over the course of a decade between very start to like when it was kind of the cleanup kind of started, I guess. Well, you're getting, no matter where you are in the world, I'm sure it's in the paper daily. That shit's going on. There's a big war or anything like that that happened here.

But the perspective that I think we're lacking in the perspective that this generation I think has trouble with now. is we're global everything now. Everything's a global market. We, I mean, we know what's going on in another part of the world instantly. Yeah, and we send beat reporters to cover Ukraine and everything. There's boots on the ground from most countries in any major conflict. Whereas this, you're getting it,

but you're getting it by radio transmission where you see pictures maybe like a month after it happened potentially. Yeah, like you always see those videos where before a movie, when you go see a movie, they would show you the newsreel of what had been going on on the front or in different parts of Europe or the Pacific and that footage is like three weeks to a month old whereas

you know now it's as it happens. It's almost you can see some stuff live which I think that really does also play into this I mean there's of course footage and coverage and all that kind of stuff of World War II but it was only you know where cameras were set up it wasn't someone like a villager pulling

out their phone and recording a battle going on or something like that. It was very, you know, strategically shot stuff. Well, we're just so desensitized to it, which I get, it's probably not a great thing. But on a worldwide scale, we see, like, a Palestinian reporter that was shot during a conflict that was happening between the Israelis and the Palestinians. We see that shit all the time. Had that happened back in the day, nobody would have known about it in America. Like that doesn't make the people that saw it.

Maybe, but how are the Palestinian-Israeli side sharing that with America? No, no, no. The only people that know about it are the ones that saw it, I mean. The tragedy is localized. And this was the first event where it's like, holy shit, everybody sees it. But at the same time, we share tragedy all the time. You think about the shootings that happened, was it in Paris, when everybody threw the flags up and really cared about Paris for a couple weeks?

Yeah. Same thing with Ukraine. And I'm not trying to minimize these events. because they were tragic events. But when it comes down to, like, putting up a Facebook support picture, it's like, that's cool, man. But just try to care more, maybe. Like, don't show me that you need to care. Like, just care.

I think one of the things, too, about kind of, you know, you watch a documentary on World War II. And one thing that you don't really see that's going to tie directly into this is think of how people had to identify other people. And this topic, this is an angering topic. Absolutely. When you look into it. And do you think of like, you know, we have pictures of Hitler. We know what Hitler looks like from rallies, videos, stuff like that. Maybe more recent than we know.

Maybe. But for some of these other guys that escaped, you were going off of eyewitnesses from concentration camps. other officers that describe them to cut a deal or something like that. So like the whole point, especially the guys that got caught, and I'll tell you precisely what we're talking about today, but the guys that got caught and then escaped, it's like, how did you not, like part of my brain is like, how did you let this, if you caught the guy, how did he escape if you knew who, they didn't know who these guys were? No one had any idea what these guys looked like until there were reports on him.

They just knew there were certain people within, you know, the next. Nazi party that angel of death and all this kind of shit. But no one knew what they look like until they were starting to identify people. So these guys could disguise themselves or forge paperwork and that's where we get into our topic today of I guess first we're going to focus on Hitler and a little bit of conspiracy time. But that's going to tie right into some actual real world occurrences of Nazi war criminals escaping Germany and hiding out in different places of the world. Primarily a lot of it's going to focus around like South America. Part of the reason why this topic is so interesting to me is it no other time in the world.

Like, there's winners and losers to every conflict. It's just how it happens. But the sheer magnitude, like when you look at World War II, you talk about the Axis powers being Germany, Italy, and Japan. But really, it's sort of Italy was Mussolini. Yeah. And Japan was Hirohito. That was their two regimes, but you can kind of lump them in as a country as a whole. And when you say Germany, Germany just sounds like the country.

But it was really the Third Reich that had taken over Germany. So as far as being at war with countries, we were more. war with factions that took over those countries. And I think that kind of gets lost because when we're talking about the end of World War II, the Nazi regime, the Third Reich was so fucking big and the numbers were so immense. There were so many officers. There were so many soldiers, everything like that. And they just disappeared.

Like we're talking somewhere around the thing, it's like 200,000 members of the SS. Just up and disappeared. that doesn't happen. Humans don't just disappear off the planet. They blend into society, do whatever they have to be away from. Especially people don't know what they look like. I mean, people do know what they look like, but what are you going to do, sketch a picture? Well, and therein lies the issue, when you escape from Germany and you go to these other places that are populated by Germans, because that seems to be mostly where they would try to escape to, you would be blending into a society where if you're one Nazi SS member and you walk into 500 other Germans, how are you going to choose that?

How are you going to choose the right one out of there? Yeah. Part of me thinks the stuff in South America, the places that were previously established were part of, well, they were part, not so much maybe an escape plan, but they were part of a plan for essentially another front. It sounds like kind of, or at least another supply of soldiers or people that could fight. It could be. In one of the documentaries that I saw, it's weird how it all kind of makes sense, like looking at a map as far as geographically where they went. but they really didn't have a whole lot of other choice in South America because to the west of them,

you have Asia, which China and Japan are still in conflict. You can't go to Africa because most of that is colonized by French and English that you just got done having a war with. U.S. no-go. Canada, definitely going to be a no-go. They're fighting, yeah, anywhere that's fighting against you. Here's the other thing, too, I noticed.

have you seen some of like Argentina and Chile of the areas where these like German like settlements are? Where they have like little Germany's places like they look like the fucking Alps. Yeah. They're hyping the mountains, big snow cat peaks and everything, you know, mountain lakes. If you pulled up pictures of. Weather's going to be different but besides that. Yeah, but I mean if you're just looking at a picture, there's a city. I'll get to the name here in a little bit because it plays into what we're talking about.

But you could pull up a city, that city. and then side by side, just some random Bavarian town, and it'd be hard to pick out the difference, just because, of course, the architecture was influenced because there were a lot of Germans there. But even just, you can see why they would go there to try to be comfortable. But like you're saying, you also have to go someplace

where you're not going to get extradited from, or it's going to be difficult to do that, and you have friends in power. And it's going to be hard to find you, just from a landmass hiding perspective. And some of these escapees, I kind of found it interesting, was they still had German jobs in South America. They were working at a Mercedes-Benz plant. They were working in a Volkswagen plant.

To me, I don't know if that's just them forging their documents and being able to go and be like, hey, German came from Germany and all that. Or was there a little bit more at play there? Were the higher-up executives in these companies being like, hey, man, I know you need to get out of here. I know we did some not great shit they're going to be coming after you. What do you come down to South America? I'll give you a job.

I'll give you a cush job in the plan. You don't got to do shit. You're going to be a lot safer down there. You're going to be able to blend in. There's far more German people down there that you're going to be able to talk to and cohabitate with than probably share some of the views. New identity, all that good stuff.

All right. So let's start with the what if part of this first. And let's try to figure. out, because we're going to go into actual recorded cases of these guys getting away. Now, Hitler getting out of Germany, that's kind of been something that's been kicked around. And as different pieces of like evidence have kind of been released over the years, the evidence points into the scenario that it's possible that he could got, you know, could have gotten away or escaped Berlin.

is it just do you feel like it's just not really recognized because at this point he'd be dead already and it's not worth even there there's no good that can come of even stating okay yes i guess it's a possibility he could have gotten away there's nothing good that can come of that right nothing good that can come of it but we also just replace one enemy with another so quickly afterwards that i think a lot of it was forgotten because we rolled right into the Cold War right after a lot of this happened. That's true, and there would be no good during the Cold War of just being like, oh, by the way, some information came out that it's possible that we kind of goofed up

and Hitler's not really dead. But even at that point, I don't think there was ever, there would never be a pro over con benefit. What would you be admitting? You'd be admitting that essentially the Allies screwed the biggest pooch that they possibly could have aside from losing the war.

you know yeah i think it's just kind of putting which essentially the nuremberg trials and i think there were the dachau trials where we tried to hold people accountable for these atrocities but we never got the figurehead and i think maybe the original story that hitler was found burned outside of his last bunker

after being given cyanide and that was how we figured and shooting himself in the head. Being shot in the head. Let's just say being shot in the head, because we don't know. Let's just, let's go to Exhibit 1 of my trial here. Reasons why he could still be alive. Oh, oh, this is great.

We might be the first podcast ever to put Hitler on trial. It's not going to be really him on trial. I'm just trying to prove to the court that there is reasonable doubt that he's actually, he actually died in the manner that history recognizes. We don't have to prove that he was still alive afterwards. We just have to give enough reasonable doubt to be able to sway the opinion.

Oh, yeah. And of course, like, you know, it's all going to be speculation, but there is some stuff that actually, like, evidence that supports it. Well, this, as far as being a self-admitted, self-admitted lover of conspiracy theories, I don't feel like there's any conspiracy theory on the planet that makes as much sense as this. going on you need to show me

maybe four or five things to prove to me that the moon landing was real the two closest things that I could equate to this are the JFK assassination and the King assassination I think more likely than not

we didn't get the whole story on both of those and we may have had some government interference but as far as Hitler surviving this I would need 110% proof like I'd need to see the DNA evidence

that is shoddy at best that I'm sure you're going to bring up. I would need to see 100% that that was him for me to believe that he didn't escape because none of what he did in his alleged final moments makes any sense towards the person that he was.

Here's my confliction with his entire topic as a whole is that I don't want any of this to be accurate. I want none of this to be true. What's fascinating is that there is all of this and yet the line is that, were just satisfied that like I I wish he would have gotten captured that would have been ideal him him killing himself being the you know taking the the easy way on that scenario that's you know the second best scenario I guess you could hope for worst case scenario is that he gets away but the simple fact

that there's a lot of evidence that suggests he could have done that but and of course you're not going to hear about yeah we're on the search for Hitler because we think he got away so there was CIA and FBI research and operations done until looking into this. But of course, that stuff didn't come out until I think it was like 2007 when all the files on this got released. But yeah, so I'm not presenting these exhibits with any type of like satisfaction or glee. No, we're not trying to celebrate thinking that Hitler made it through this. We're just trying to point out that the whole story that we got. The story that we all get taught in class and everything like that is, it sounds nice and it sounds all wrapped up with a bow.

But if you were to stop and think about it for five minutes and kind of look into some of the facts, you'd be like, yeah, I don't know. So we got April 20th, 1945. So the Red Army, Russia, they actually reach Berlin first before the Allies do. So they completely surround it. and basically they just, there's rings of defense in Berlin. So every so often they'll take over another area and it'll shrink the ring in closer toward the chancellery and the Fuhr bunker where Hitler's hiding out. So was it in Berlin or was it outside of Berlin?

No, no, no. It was like the center of Berlin. The center of Berlin, basically, is where the, the fear bunker, because it's right underneath the Reich chancery. Okay, so it's like the one that they have in the White House. Yeah, and at this point, too, he wanted that. be the center of the city because the whole point was when he won World War II, he was going to turn Germany or sorry, Berlin. Berlin was going to be the capital of the world. And so he was,

it was going to be this, you know, sprawling mega city that rivaled, you know, Rome, the magnificence of Rome and all this kind of stuff. So that's where you also see a lot of like the kind of of Germanesque German architecture and everything that still kind of stands there. So yeah, so the bunker is right in the middle. And it's in them, of course, even if it was kind of the outside, it would be the most protected section because that's where he's at.

So the last time Hitler is seen outside the bunker, he's handling out medals to the Hitler youth. And that's actually April 20th. So he goes into the bunker after that, doesn't come out of the bunker. And on April 30th, that's the day where Hitler and Ava Braun commit suicide. And there are,

the argument toward yes it happened was that they say that there were witnesses in the bunker that saw him during those days there's some reports that he looked different different and on the sense of like like drastically different but more gaunt stressed out his appearance all that kind of stuff over those 10 days that he was there and of course that's going to be chalked up to me when the not familiar Hitler had a personal physician that pumped him full of all kinds of shit Like meth, morphine, just uppers, downers, just fucking keeping him calm and wired all day long. Those two things not being possible at the same time. No.

The other thing is speaking to Hitler's looks, Hitler wasn't the only Hitler that Hitler'd. Hitler had, I think, like three or four body doubles. And not uncommon. We've seen this. We talked about this. in the Ghost Army episode where they would have generals that look the part that show up in different places to kind of run.

I'm not going to lie to, I think being a dictator, that might be the thing. I wouldn't, Kim Jong-un or I can't remember what fucking one we're on. We're on noon. Yeah, he's got to have multiple doubles. If he's giving speeches, stuff like that, or traveling, of course fucking Hitler

is going to have multiple doubles. You know what a great position that would be in North Korea to be Kim Jong-un's boss. body double because you have to continue to stay as fat as he is. So you're like the only person in North Korea that's eating almost as good as Kim Jong-un. That's true, but can you imagine if like you would have to just stay inside the whole time. You can never be allowed out.

I can just imagine going into like his, what, private basketball court or whatever he has, and there's just three Kim John Nunes playing basketball. Yeah, look at the fuck's going on here. So the way that it said that they, uh, him and even, Braun killed themselves is he had Hitler's physician, he had him provide him with cyanide. They tested it on their dog first. And then him and Eva, they actually got married, I think, like a day before, two days before, something like that on like the 20, like 28th or 29th.

And then took the cyanide together and then Hitler shot himself in the head in like his private room. And I think his like valet or whatever they call him, like, I can't remember, sorry, can't remember the dude's name. He apparently went in there, had a couple other guys come in, they rolled Hitler up in a rug. There's some eyewitness accounts of people saying, yeah, we know it was Hitler because we saw the bottom of his legs and the top of his head. I'm like, how the fuck do you know it's like someone can, anyone can have a comb over and be wearing fucking jack boots? Yeah, anybody can have a shitty haircut and be wearing, yeah, the same boots.

It's, and not to mention, again, he had body doubles. So even if it looked like some sort of a resemblance, it could have been one of the other. multiple body doubles that just took the fall that got shot and then they fed him the cyanide, something like that. And here's the other thing too is you have people saying, yes, it was Hitler, yes, it was Hitler and these accounts and everything. Bitch, all these people were loyal to Hitler. You think that there isn't at some point, some promise like, hey, if you make it through

this and, you know, I'm going to have you set up for, like, come on. Like, we're, you're going to say that people that are fanatically loyal that have been with him up to this point are not just going to continue to lie for him if they do survive. A lot of them didn't survive the bunker. No, and to kind of further muddle it, I'm sure you'll get into it. But when they found the bodies, he wasn't just neatly wrapped up in a... No, his instructions were for them to roll him in like a blanket or a rug, soak the shit and gas, and then burn him in Ava Braun. Because he had seen what they did to Mussolini's body, throwing it in the gutter and all that kind of stuff.

That's fine, man. Like, burn yourself and I get that. But at the same time, doesn't that make identification pretty... Next to impossible. Correct. Which is, that should be raising a red flag, like, how did we identify the body then? So that's where it comes into the dental records thing. The DNA wasn't a thing back then.

And dental records were only as good as the dentist doing the record or doing the recording. Was he had a Nazi fucking dentist. You're going to tell me that there wasn't the possibility that he could have just switched the dental records or had the body doubles dental records perform the same dental work. He would have performed the same dental work to make sure their teeth fucking look the same if they were double. I know that said does that sound tinfoil haddy or does that sound kind of like a it does but it's only logical at the same time like you're trying to make a point that doesn't or that shouldn't be logical just because your brain is telling you like this doesn't make any sense

because we've been taught that he died I've been watching Hitler conspiracy stuff for like six straight days man yeah but you're bringing up cogent points like it's these are all things that you and I have thought about and hopefully we can portray our thoughts to other people Hitler has a dentist it stands to reason anyone working for Hitler, especially a body double or in a high-ranking position, might share said dentist, which means when they went to get the dental records, who has control of those, the dentist or the dentist office? Hey, dear, would you please switch this into this file? Yes, there you go. Like, the guy that was willing to stick around in Germany and be Hitler's dentist, so he's got some skin in the game here. He's, he's working

for Hitler in a very personal position. and didn't try to escape. Almost as personal is the guy that's fucking injecting him with all kinds of crazy shit. Maybe not quite that, quite to that level. But so the bodies are discovered two days later. Lock and happened to bodies in two days. After they've been burned. Yep.

And so the bodies are taken by the Russians. And we basically just hear from Stalin, hey, yeah, we found Hitler's burned body out here. it got taken. We're in possession of it. It's all good. And then come to find out, Stalin literally, like, within the year

was like, yeah, I don't think we got Hitler. Had had private conversations with people being like, yeah, I don't know if we got him. And then in 2009, they, I'm trying to remember what the guy's name is. He was American or British, and they were doing a TV show.

He got access to the skull that was said to be Hitler's. Oh, yeah. that the Russians had possession of. Examining it, he found it to be female. And you can find that because of the... I think it was under the age of 30 as well. So a female under the age of 30,

Eva, Eva, Eva, whatever the fuck her name was. She was like early to mid-40s, I want to say. So even if they had somehow gotten the bodies mixed up and it was Ava's skull, it was still out of the range of possibility that it could have been her skull as well. Oh, and they were absolutely sure that this was Hitler's skull.

They even had, I think, when they had gotten to the point where they reached the chancellor in the fear bunker, they had German soldiers that were in the bunker, be like, yes, this is Hitler's body, it's this one. They would have taken them both. Like, why don't you have access to both of them? Five escape tunnels they've discovered leading out of the fear bunker. So they're, I'll kind of go through because one of them leads to a couple different escape points. So three of them, they discovered go to either like dead ends or something like that. One of them actually connected to what was at the time, like a railway, like underground their version of the subway. And you could get all the way from the Fier bunker underground walking in a huge tunnel almost within, I think they said 300 feet at Templehof Airport.

So kind of just given a breakdown. So Berlin at the time, if you're imagining these three rings around Berlin. getting kind of like a darboard. Bullseye is, let's say the red around the bullseye is, or the green around the bullseye? What color is the fucking bullseye? Red. Red. Green is the one right around it?

Maybe. Yeah, yeah. The second. So if the red bullseye is the area where like the chance three is, the green one, that ring out there, Temple Hoff is in that. And it was like the airport that, the last airport that the Nazis were in control of. So you had this escape tunnel that could get you within about 300 feet of, the airport, well, then it's discovered if you go into the airport and you go into like the underground

structure, you can actually get within about 50 feet going under into the airport and kind of heading back underground that way. And then there's a section that actually looks like it's kind of bricked up. So that could have been 50 feet that was previously dug out that you could have gotten to. Again, I'm not trying to be tinfoil had you. I'm just saying that it's possible. Also, if you come out of the subway station that was 300 feet from Templehof under the cover of darkness, you know you're going to die if the Russians get to you. You tell me you're not going to make that 300 feet dashed

to the fucking airport. And I think they said that a couple days before, it might have been the week before, they had sent four plane loads of personal's, or what did I just fucking say? Personals? Personals. Hitler's personal effects.

Personals, yeah. Personals, yeah. His personals. Um, at of Temple Hoff. Out of Tempeloff airport. Four planes, if you're not planning on fucking trying to make a run for it, why are you sending all your, where are you sending your shit? And for what purpose? Why aren't you just burning it with you?

Well, here's the thing. I mean, I can't stress this enough. And I feel like this isn't going to be the first. It's not the first time. It's not going to be the last time. We don't want this to be real. We don't want this to be true. We're not arguing on the side of the Nazis.

or Hitler or anybody like this, it's just too much for us to be able to read about and not understand the whole story that it makes you question it. And Hitler's personality, just the broad brush strokes, this guy had the balls on them enough to take over an entire country,

grassroots organization. Wasn't a super powerful member of really the government? No, I mean, it was a, it was a fringe. It was a fringe group, but it gained, it obviously gained popularity and power and then became the dominant one. So this guy had the balls and the confidence to take over an entire country. After being previously arrested. Mm-hmm.

And then not only not be happy with that, but then continue to try to take over the world and try to wipe out an entire race while replacing it with the Aryan pure race. Which he wasn't even. He wasn't blonde-haired. No, no, yeah, he was the exact opposite of what he wanted, really. He had blue eyes, I think. Did he? He might have. Dark hair and blue eyes.

That's an odd combination. But yeah. So it leads me to wonder why he would decide to give up. He knows he's going to die one way or the other. And maybe given his irrational confidence in himself, maybe he didn't want them to have the satisfaction of killing him and he wanted to do it himself. But that slice of the pie is so infinitely small that I don't think that it's always a factor.

You have to factor it in. I think I have a way to kind of sum it up. So for me personally, it's not the fascination with this boils it down to one thing. If there was any doubt, a reasonable doubt that this was not Hitler, you could have just said, we think we have Hitler, but he may still be alive. Do you know how many fucking people would be on the lookout for years for Hitler? but the moment you fucking tell the world. Yep.

Definitively, this guy is dead when we have very spotty information. How many people stop turning their eyes toward that? The nightmare is over. The killer's caught. And that's how you make it possible for someone to get away with this shit. And I think that's what is the maddening thing about this. Is that there was a, it was a, the ball was so fucking, horribly dropped.

And I know that they wanted, you know, the world, the world needed the win. We got the son of a bitch, you know. And I think that's, I think that's the other thing that's fascinating with World War II. It's so cut and dry. It's good and it's bad. It's evil.

And even at the end, when the good guys did some shady shit and even during the war, none of that was outweighed by the evil. It was very just cut and dry, good and bad. There was a good, someone to root for and someone to root against.

Regardless of some of the underlying motivations by the good guys, they were still ultimately doing the best thing for the world. Yes. So Exhibit 2 for this is how would he have gotten out of Berlin? So Tempelhof maybe the thing is, is the timing doesn't really match up super well unless he left the bunker earlier than like two days before, like when him and him. but we're getting married.

Which is wildly possible. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, the other thing, too,

is if he's using a body double even before that point, he could have left earlier. Depending on if, you know, if the body double had fooled everyone else and was fooling everyone else in the bunker,

he's like, hey, you just take over. I'm gonna fucking bounce out of here. There's a second, they, I think it was, at least within the last 10 to 15 years, they were able to go ahead and locate a fifth tunnel. And the Fier bunker no longer exists right now. They filled the shit in and put a parking lot on top of it.

They weren't fucking around. Which there's a lot of gripe and complain about that because, oh, we can't go down and see it and everything like that. At the same time, I'm like, if that happened in your country, you'd want to bulldoze that shit and get rid of it as quickly as possible. I have no problem with them doing that. I'm not going to tell Germany how to feel about this situation. So this fifth bunker, the entrance to it is about 20 feet from where they actually took Hitler's body out to burn it.

So you could literally just walk and then it takes you underground. So this actually takes you straight to and puts you out at what's called the Brandenburg Gate. So the Brandenburg Gate, and if you've seen anything about like Germany and architecture, the Brandonburg Gate almost looks like a Roman gate area. and it like leads you into this big huge open park. It's kind of like their central version of central park. And from the Brandenburg Gate is an extremely straight, wide road going down for a mile. And at this mile, it goes into a circle like a roundabout. And in the middle of this circle is what's called the victory column.

And the victory column was there prior to World War II. Same with the Brandenburg Gate. They didn't get to use it in World War I. They wanted sure shit to use it World War I. I'm not even shit in you. It celebrated the victory of like some type of like Germanic tribe war against cycle Rome or something like that. Some Mickey Mouse championship.

It wasn't erected after the battle obviously. No. So. Well, they didn't have a win to be able to erect it. But the thing about this column is the column is huge to where there's a spiral staircase inside. You can go up into it. And it's like an observation post way above the ground.

They and they use different observation post. Possible aircraft, air traffic control. I can't fucking talk right now. A day before, or two days before, him and they have committed suicide, there was a pilot who actually, and it was one of his test pilots, it was a woman. She did test flights,

or she did testing on all these planes and everything. On the Measure Schmitz and everything. But if you're going to have a pilot die, he's probably going to want a woman to do it, right? She'd been already a, like, she was already a test pilot as far as like she had tested like the German jet fighter all that kind of stuff

she was like a known person a human crash test dummy if you're gonna have anybody try to do something crazy you want the person that's used to doing crazy shit so she proved it was possible a couple days before by taking off actually she might have been

one of the people that took off of Tempelhof there was another guy that was like one of the premier aces I'm trying to remember what his name was it was Peter Baumgart Sounds like a nice German boy So basically you have a

Underground passage Leads you right to the Brandenburg Gate You have a mile over a mile It's like 1.1 Over a mile of straight road And then you can pull up And there's like an air traffic control At the very end of it

They were looking at this When they were reviewing this site To see if it would be possible to take off a plane and they're like, well, there's street lamps all the way down each side, like every 20 feet, it would give you a really, really small area to try to take off on. They found pictures that were showing Germany as soon as the Red Army and Allies got in there. All of the lamp posts had been taken down. They were there and were purposely taken down now.

Sure, they could have been taken down to use as materials, melted down for scrap, tried to be used for barricades when they were trying to fortify Berlin, or they could have been taken down for a specific reason, which provided like an extra 20 feet on each side. They were like, you can land a C-130 here. I don't know how big a C-130 is, but I have to assume... It's like the four-engine military planes that carry heavy equipment. So something fairly big.

Yeah. But we're not taking into account that if the H-man needed to escape, he didn't need to take one of those. He could have taken a small personal, just single prop in front of aircraft. They had two-seaters or even just like small transport planes. He didn't have to go far. You just had to get out of Berlin. Yeah, exactly.

And here's the thing, too, like, Berlin is not small. I understand that the city is mostly under the Russian control. You take off at night, stay low over the city. Within the rings of defense that have already been established? No, no, no. This was still within the bullseye, right? Yeah. Yes, this, the Brandon Bird Gate and everything, this was 50 or 60 feet from the fur bunker.

It was close. the chancellery was like right in this like park area. We're still in a semi fortified right control. You're not getting shot at as the plane is taxing on the runway. You might get shot at 25 seconds after takeoff because you fly over a section. If they see you. If they see you. You just turn off the fucking lights on the plane.

This, am I, does this sound tinfoil haddy or does it sound like common sense that this could be possible? Oh, it's absolutely possible. It's just a subject that you have to kind of... Drug smugglers flying to the United States all the fucking time. And this was before radar, or not before radar, but no one's... Early stages of radar. No one has radar that they're bringing it into Berlin to look for planes. So he makes it out of...

He, it's a possible way he could have made it out of Berlin. Peter Baumgart, he actually survived the war and was interviewed. he actually does claim to have flown Hitler out of Berlin. And they were asking him where he would have taken him. And there's some possible evidence that he landed in an area in Denmark. And I think it was called like Tonder, Tondor. There was a small German held kind of like clandestine secret airfield that there were reports again. I'm not saying that there's any legitimacy to these reports, but it seems weird that these reports would be made around these times.

like I don't know what would prompt someone that's in Denmark, which is the town was right on the German Denmark border, but I don't get what someone would gain from the airfield of saying, yeah, Hitler was here after the war just a few days after, you know, they surrendered or, it would be within the same night because they didn't surrender, I think, until after Hitler had died and then the chain of command got changed or whatever. It also kind of goes without saying too. Just because the Russians had kind of taken over and sort of clean shit up and did it their way,

there were still sympathizers outside of Germany that felt the right way to be able to be smuggled, to basically help aid getting Hitler out of this. And I think it was like there were some places in Switzerland that kind of held these sentiments. There were still areas around there that were sympathizers to Hitler that they could have flown into in the dead of night in the secret and helped continue moving him along the way to get away. He made a lot of people a lot of money and he helped out some very key people in their kind of like their journey to power that really kind of leads or lend some, you know, credence to this information. he so let's just imagine for a second yeah he makes it to Denmark

or he just makes it out of Berlin and gets to somewhere where that's all he really has to do is make it out of Berlin make it out of the hot zone yeah exactly because it's not like you know once you get out of Berlin there's fucking Russians or

allied troops every you know every mile it's that's what I'm talking about scope there's only so many people can take up so you know much room but they don't know where all these bases are, they don't know where airfields are, who's going to know about that? And who's going to have a

fucking plan? None of this were it to happen is just like flying by the seat of your pants shit. One of the questions that keeps getting brought up to is, why didn't he just escape? Why would he need to use a body double or why all of this kind of stuff?

I think it goes back to the point that I made about why this is so frustrating is that if, let's say that the body double wasn't even really that convincing. It was convincing enough to convince people for one month. Until they were due to do some type of evidence or someone actually gave testimony that it was all a fake. If for some reason the body double didn't have the same SS tattoo that Hitler had. What if that's still a whole month to try to get out in a way?

So all you're doing, it's low risk, high reward is using the body double. Exactly. You're going to die one way or the other. Why not put up a fight? This guy, this is the guy. that literally spent millions upon millions of whatever they would call dollars at this point. Rikes? Kroner's?

I don't know. Reich marks? Yeah, it could be franks. I think Franks maybe. This guy spent millions upon millions of dollars building these bases throughout Europe and in Russia. There was, it's called the Wolf Slayer. I'm not going to get too far into it. But, oh, yeah, the Wolf Slayer.

Basically, it was his compound for if he wanted to go toward the Russian front and kind of like be able to see the Russian front, but at a safe, you know, in a safe location. He had his bunker, Borman had a bunker, gerbils had a bunker. All of his, you know, little fucking Nazi butt buddies. This thing is huge. Watch a, watch like a, there's Nazi megastructures as a show if you watch it. The amount, and he went there like, do you remember, sorry, I keep going. like different topics.

Do you remember the movie Valky? It was that weird movie with Tom Cruise. He played in the eyepatch. So that's based on a real plot to assassinate Hitler that almost succeeded. It took place at the Wolf Slayer. Slayer or layer? Layer.

Okay. Layer. I think he visited there throughout the entire war like two or three times. There was another bunker that he had made. He had a private train that he liked to travel on. It was like super armored,

had like, and shit on it. There was a bunker he made just in case the train came under attack in this certain area. The train would drive into this bunker, like inside of a mountain, like, you know, 50 feet thick, had all, like, it could seal itself against gas attack, used it one time. What I'm trying to get out with this is this is not someone who is like shy or frugal about spending money on his own survival or making plans for his own survival. All this guy does is plan on how to keep himself safe. So you'll excuse me and I understand people go down to the, well, he was crazed at this point

and the war was going horribly. He knew he was going to lose. Yeah, that's going to go ahead and probably make anybody a little bit fucking nervous. What I'm saying is that he demonstrated enough cunning, I guess, like evil fucking cunning during his time. as the head of the Nazi party, that it's very, it's too casual or too cavalier just to say that, oh yeah,

this guy just shot himself in the head. It's like I say, it goes back to the same personality traits. He doesn't have the right personality traits for somebody that would just give up themselves and do it that way. That's why I say there's still that micro slice on the pie saying that he didn't want another person to kill him.

He wanted to die by his own hand just so he didn't give everybody else the satisfaction. But it's so minuscule compared to everything else that we know about the guy. And how hard is the leap just to say, okay, fine, he had it in his mind that he was going to kill himself. You don't think that he would try to escape and just carry a gun with him? And then if something happened, he was going to get captured, he just shoots himself in the head. If he dies, he doesn't really matter. This is not a zero-sum game, but his escape only benefits him because that's, there's a chance getting out of it.

Like you say, he's not a frugal guy. He had like summer homes and winter homes. and he had places all over to where he could go hide out, which I'm sure all had tons of gold, money in them. Places that we know about, but how many places that we didn't know about? They didn't come out until years and years later. If he has five or six places that we know about,

a good chance he has 10 that we don't. Exactly. And it's not even like he would go to his own places. So let's say he makes it out of Berlin. Where can you go at that point? Well, let's go ahead and start with Spain. France has been liberated at this point, but there are still places in France, essentially,

that are not allied occupied. French as a whole is allied occupied, but there are still places. Villages. Yeah, places where he could go land. So he made friends with Francisco Franco, who at this point, at the end of World War II, was the leader of Spain.

Probably not related to James Franco. No, I don't believe so. Prior to World War II, before he actually attacked, before Hitler actually attacked France. And while the, what were the laws that they had to abide by after World War I about armament, rearmament and stuff,

it was the, it wasn't, it was the Geneva Convention. It was the Code of the Geneva Convention. So because the rule of the Geneva Convention regarding the Germans were that they could not have a standing air force and they couldn't train people to be Air Force pilots, how they got around that is they made sport flying club. well when they when Hitler got into power and he finally just said fuck it let's see him stop us and they started creating you know fighter aircraft and weapons of war they had to get some

experience under their belt so Hitler backed Francisco Franco in the Spanish Civil War which I think took place between like 34 and 39 maybe 36 and 39 he came in on um Franco's side and basically had like the Luftwaffe training by flying against the pilots that were with the established banished government. And that's why also the Luftwaffe had such an advantage over the British when they first started because they already had fighter experience. Well, I think we talked about this before in a different episode. I don't remember which one it was. But we talked about this Spanish Civil War is almost like a practice round. Like they they were able to go out and try to do what they needed to do and learn what they needed to learn during the Spanish Civil War.

What works? What doesn't work? What do we need to... Yeah. Different strategies you're learning from the Spanish, but at the same time, you're using your machines. Mm-hmm. It's just a little bit of foreplay. So Franco rules Spain. All of fucking Spain. The entire... And the thing about Spain, they stayed out of World War II. Here's the thing, too. Maybe... I don't know if it was intention. I mean, I'm sure Hitler would have to have Spain fighting for him and everything.

But maybe that did play into an advantage because guess who wasn't occupying Spain? There were no allies. Yeah. So he could have gone to Spain. He had friends there. From Spain. Spain is what, 70% coastal?

Maybe like 60% coastal. I'm just trying to think part of it touches France and then the rest of it, it's Spain. Oh, and then Portugal's in there. So maybe like 50% coastal. It's like a chubby isthmus though. It's just, literally sticking out into the ocean.

So from Spain, where does he go next? Well, the kind of the established thought would be that you would head as far away as you can, where you also have someplace to go. So after the war ended, there were 50 U-boats that were unaccounted for. Now... It's a lot of U-boats. Yeah. Now, some of those probably sank.

Some of those probably had been unaccounted for for a while. Some of those were taking their sweet time, or the crews decided they were going somewhere tropical to live out the rest of their days. U-boat range is about, it's over 6,000 nautical miles. And Argentina, it is. Spain, Argentina is like 5, 5,700 miles, which means it's within range of U-boat. Pretty nice way underwater to get to someplace that you're trying to stay hidden. yeah i think the the other kind of interesting thing about argentina

and not just solely to argentina what we'd be talking about where these things are taking place but argentina was very sympathetic to the rike and to the not even sympathetic man supportive to the point where

they allowed Nazi school see schools to be opened to train Argentinians. Argentinians. Argentinians, yeah. Argentinians. They had a pretty large following of the Nazi party in Argentina. There's actual photographic video evidence.

There's a show, and please do not let this turn anyone off to this, the rest of this episode, because I know this is going to sound word. There's a show called Hunting Hitler. Yeah. Yeah. You got to watch this show. with a big filter on and you just pick out the stuff that they give you

that is fact. Not any guy. They do the talking head thing like the office does where someone will state a fact. The guys are fucking chodes and they just sound like they don't know what they're fucking doing. There are a couple guys that will give you actual facts and we'll read from like CIA documents. Other thing you can't fake is you can't fake

going into a small old Argentine town and you look up at this school and there's these weathered signs. One, the flag of Argentina. won the Iron Eagle, sitting next and joining with each other. There are photos within these schools that show people wearing the Schwarzika, the German flag.

They found huge caches of German, like Nazi era memorabilia from that area or from that era. Coins, all that kind of stuff. So it's been established, and there's also still a large German presence there. They knew. that Germans were immigrating in. So I'm not just saying that this all stems from

like Nazi war criminals coming over. What I'm saying is that prior to when the Nazi party first established itself, there was a lot of Germans that immigrated to Argentina. I do think part of that was a strategy to go ahead and build a power base there. You have plans for world domination. I mean, you have this look like I'm losing you. I'm going to try to, I'll try to, I'm going to rope you back in here. I was just thinking, this was to expand globally like you're talking about. It wouldn't be as like an escape plan. Like, this all wasn't set in motion just in case.

I'm saying that that could have been a happy result of it. I'm not saying it was an intentional matter. What I'm saying is that if you had plans for rule domination and you found yourself in an advantageous position, especially considering that if you were friendly with South America or just Argentina, Chile, whatever, you were probably also getting resources and everything from them too. Yeah. So there is, you know, photographic evidence of, like, kids, you know, in the courtyard and everything like that. They were taught by identified, like, Nazi collaborators. And there are people around the town that when they interview, they're like, oh, yeah, you know,

Nazism was actually pretty big for my grandfather. You know, we've tried to kind of move on from it because they realize it, but there's, you know, these are poor villages. They're poor towns and villages. This isn't, it's like, you know, it's not exactly like their skyscrapers going up. They're not going to, you know, they're using buildings for whatever they can.

They're not tearing down signage and all that kind of stuff. So you get to see the remnants of stuff that happened, you know, 80 years ago. And you do have evidence that there, you know, there is safety here. So, of course, you're going to try to go somewhere if, you know, Hitler heads for South America. You know, why don't,

Why don't you go somewhere where you can hide? And there's a support system of places that you can be hidden. Yeah, if you go into Argentina, you're going into a place for the Argentine president was trying to incorporate some of the military parades and military prowess that Germany had under Hitler's rule. So you have somebody that's already trying to imitate you. He's probably going to want to meet you. and at the very least, he's going to want to be able to give you safe haven a way to not only maybe learn from your strategies, but if you do have similar aspirations, and as we know through a couple of these episodes, South America is kind of for grabs at any point in time.

They're very politically unstable. We see it even today. I mean, Brazil's going through some shit right now. Peru goes through some shit pretty randomly. Chile, I think, is a little bit more stable. going to play a weird role in this coming up. But if you are looking to spread like the Germans tried to do in Europe, South America would almost be more of an advantageous place because there is no solid governments around you.

There's no infrastructure. You can go ahead and create the order, the law as you see it, and then people, you know, will just have to fall in line, kind of like they had to do in Europe. Mm-hmm. Except with much less resistance. Yes. Kind of getting back to what I was saying. So that show, you've got to sift through a lot of bullshit just to get the crumbs of the facts. So the stuff that I'm basing this off of is just from stuff that's like video, like evidence that I've seen with my eyes. I don't like the commentary of that, but I think it does provide a little bit of insight. Probably stop watching it after season one. That's when they start having to go into real speculative territory and it just kind of loses. Loses, yeah. I mean, I listen to a couple of the interviews for Colonia that we'll talk about. I mean, it's, yeah.

There are some good things that you can draw out of the weird TV bullshit that's put out there. I mean, all this stuff has to be based in some sort of truth. Yeah. There was this compound that they found. There's two points in, and one of them is to make a point of a strong German presence. The other is more so that this is kind of just very weird. there's this lake in Argentina and there's this house at the end of this lake very, very secluded. And it's like super secluded, but very super German.

And it's just weird that this house would be out here. And there's some, like, in like identifiable areas around like the house or like the property around it, that could be like a guard shack or something like that. probably could be just some rich person again another rich German vacation house. There's another place though that they found a compound in the jungle outside of this place called

Missione's. And basically they started out finding like two structures and when they were going through and like unearthing all of this stuff like they discovered like the structures were really well built like built with like stuff from the area not super like imported or brought in

but like very skillfully done. fine craftsmanship based on the resources that they had so that house was made of carved stone and everything the cottage it had a form of like running plumbing and water a tile like an actual polished tile um bath bathtub bath basin red and yellow colored tile like in the bathroom it had then they determined there were actually like some guard shacks around this area and like defensive positions they then started finding actual like artifacts they found a nazi coin they found nine millimeter casings that would have been that caliber i think that one of their guns like a couple of their machine guns used at the time and then they found a lot of like stomach medicine and one of the things

that they say hitler suffered with was some type of like intestinal or bad guts or bad guts or something like that. Not saying he stayed there or anything, but why the fuck is there a Nazi coin in the middle of the fucking jungle where there's this like very secluded hidden jungle compound that had a power station run by water, like a couple guard outposts, guard barracks, and like this very, maybe small and modest,

but like a place where you could be comfortable. Like who's going to fucking pay? They said that the cost of them. this thing at that time would have been like a few million dollars like who's going to pay for just to have like it would have to be someone pretty important right that needed to hide roostov voltswagon or something like somebody like that had a summer home in argentina yeah i don't i don't know the other thing too is just kind of thinking about how you were talking about the president of argentina at the time kind of being like pro nazi or least like trying to use some of

their ideas i think if hitler escapes he's not probably going to go to to the government first, just because if, like, he escapes and that president is looking at the allies, just having one, and knowing that Hitler is in his country, I don't know if you could resist the temptation of being like, I could, like, be the hero of the world and probably get, like, some of the best fucking trade deals and everything. I'm only the most important chess piece on the board. Exactly. And so I don't think that Hitler being, you know, Hitler did some stupid shit, but keeping himself alive and preserving seem to have been the thing that he excelled at for the war.

Yeah, I don't see him being trustworthy at that point. It's just weird that there would be this in the middle of the jungle, this like Nazi compound. Yeah, and not to say, you know, that it was the H-Man's place because... Could have been Gorman. Could have been Gorman funneling some money to go ahead and build his escape. Could have been. Gurbels could have been any of the... Yeah, as we get to, there's a lot of...

All the higher-up guys made money for... from looting, fucking taking fortunes from fucking families that they get, like, come on. And the other thing, not to just focus on Hitler, but a lot of people in Hitler's inner circle also committed suicide and also were either not recovered or burned. And just certain things like that. So not to say that this could be Hitler, but it could be one of his other main guys.

It could be some of the fellas that we're going to be talking about. because it seems like these guys kind of tried to blend in a little bit more. But whoever it was, the Nazi influence seems like it was very strong to the point to where they could have been a major player. And like you say, if you have these planes that are transporting all of Hitler's wares, goods, anything like that, it stands to reason that there is a chance that this could be a... They have a destination. Yep. here's the other thing too like with

the other people that it is inner circle that tried to escape we're gonna go through we're not gonna hit like the huge ones because gerbils killed himself in the bunker

they found gerbils because he just signed out himself and his entire family I think they actually found Borman and he'd actually tried to make a run for it and then was either

he was with a couple guys got pinned down by some fire and then he ended up either shooting himself in the head or taking cyanide. They found his body just on the fucking side of the road. And he was intact, so they were able to go ahead and find him. But again, that's like three guys out of Hitler's entire. And that was just like the guys we know from history the most,

that most of the fingers have been pointed at. There's a lot of these guys that we're going to actually discuss here. I'm done with Hitler because I have no idea where it would fucking go after that. The only point I can make is some of the argument is also, well, like, what would he do? Was he trying to establish like a Fourth Reich or anything like that? I don't think so. I think after he got out,

that he would have just been like, I didn't, I, I didn't die. Yeah. I was able to escape. I'll probably just lay low the rest of my life. I think I got, got one over on the world. And I'm just going to go ahead and try to stay quiet,

which is exactly what the guys that we're going to actually talk about that have proven to have done this, dead. If you want to go ahead and pass a tinfoil cap over, I got some shit for you that's really going to sort of shake up your thought process on this whole thing. Are we getting into the actual things that happen, or are we still kind of talking in light? This is Hitler. This will kind of put a weird little bow on top of it.

So we know for a long time that the records on the JFK assassination were buried. 2017 they declassified a bunch of this information and in going through the information you're trying to figure out during the JFK assassination if Lee Harvey Oswald What was the GF? It was the Fuck, what was the committee called?

The one that investigation? Warren Commission? Warren Commission, that's right. Is that what it was? Warren Commission. Damn, pulled that right out of my ass. God, good for you. So one of their goals is going to be Was this was Lee Harvey a solo actor?

Was he paid by a foreign government? Anything like that? Is it communism? Yep. They ran across in 1955 there was an informant down in South America who made contact with a Venezuelan that, well, he was in Venezuela. but he was basically an informant for the CIA. And he reported back to the CIA,

or the CIA operative that he had actually laid eyes on Hitler in Colombia, and he was among his fellow countrymen in a small kind of like a Germanish village, and he said that he was alive and well. And he allegedly may have taken a picture or two. it's a little bit fuzzy But the informant was a former SSAS

SS agent So the Shostofen Whatever they were The informant was Yes Was this guy just an informant That was like an informant that would provide information To like a CIA handler

Or was he hired by the CIA? No he was basically a rat The CIA turned probably saying We know you're there Okay so he was a source for a CIA operative Okay Um, his name was Phillips and Trone. So he was an actual SS agent that could have potentially either worked around

D.H man laid eyes on him, anything like that. So the guy did a lot of rallies. I mean, he would especially have the, what was it, the stump, stumpful schusion. Still stoffing, something like that. The schnoodle, schnozzage. The losers. They lost. Um, but it just feels very odd that in doing research for JF,

K's assassination, that they would run across somebody who potentially positively ID'd Hitler in Colombia. I mean, that's a very odd tie-in. I think at that point, because this was 1955 that they got this information, and JFK got shot what in the 70s? I think so.

Somewhere around there. So it was information that they had sat on for all these years, but felt it was valid enough to bring it up as a potential situation where maybe Hitler could have been involved or maybe it was like we need to exhaust every option to figure this out. This was information that we got maybe 20 years ago, but we still need to look into it a second time. I wonder that was something that, so, you know, going kind of back to the beginning, the Russians gave us a lot of the information that we went off of. And then, like, we got eventually, like, what, dental records?

and I don't know how we just They said there were pieces They got the skull But then there were pieces of the jaw That like got analyzed And that's what got matched To the dental records I'm not sure where the details of that are

The only reason that we had that Is because the Germans were so Or not the Germans The Russians were so fucking I don't want to say Dumb Yeah maybe a little bit horny for just destruction I'm not gonna lie to you

I don't blame him Like Hitler did some like Even more fucked up shit in To the Russians than anybody else. Not outside of the Holocaust. Supposedly what the Russians did was they brought him back to Russia. They held the body for a little while.

Then they decided to bury it. I thought Stalin used his skull as an ashtray or some shit. Maybe, which might be, I don't know, maybe the cigarettes did something to change it to a female skull. But they buried him. Then they got concerned that his burial site was going to inspire other Nazis to come see it and celebrate it. So they dug him back up. This time they burned him,

which seems like a crazy move. He was already burned, though. What the fuck do you mean? I don't know if maybe they were trying to compact him down or anything like that. Maybe he tried to fit him in a box, something along those lines. We can burn that more. Yeah. Then they went ahead and buried the ashes or whatever remained from the second burning.

And then ended up digging him up again. And that's how we ended up getting that piece of the skull. So suffice it to say we probably didn't have a whole. lot of whatever corpse was buried by the second burning and the second exhumation of the body. Just not a

whole lot of evidence to go on there. Yeah. All right. But is that not kind of tickle you a little bit to think that there was somebody that could have potentially laid eyes on Hitler 10 years after the

because it was 45 around the time that the war ended? Yeah, in Germany. So yeah, a decade after we thought this guy was dead. There was a former SS agent. I just wonder if that was something that like, they just did to like fuck with us. Like I'm, because, you know, Stalin kind of, Stalin. I was a trusted CIA guy. No, no, no, I get that. But I'm saying Stalin fuck with us too. And it was like, yeah, he's dead. You just trust us. We were in the Cold War with them at that point.

No, no, no. At the end of the, at World War II when they were telling us, because they, yeah, they didn't have like, imagine being the unit that stumbles upon what was Hitler. Like, I'm sorry, but is that body? staying there. It's not, man. There's not a crime scene there. That thing has been fucked around. Do you know how many Russian soldiers are fighting over a fucking piece of Hitler's bone? Man, like, to really sit there and think like, oh, yes, we found the intact bodies. And they're lucky they found any skull. They probably looked around and were like, we got to find a skull to say this is his. Yeah, which we definitely could be, you know, completely wrong in that aspect.

And maybe it was just like, hey, we got to figure out some way to make. To make a these people happy. Just do you have a bone fragment of anybody? Somebody? Yeah. Like when the Allies get here, like, they're going to ask to see the proof. And we got no proof. And not only that, it's not like we even believe that we can't even, no one will admit

to find in the skull, so we can't even test it to merely make sure. Mm-hmm. But let's talk more about, and I think this is going to lend some evidence back to, back to maybe some of the evidence on this. But let's talk about the actual people that have been proof. been to have escaped and then what happened to them? And just to point out that these weren't just like general run-of-the-mill SS soldiers, anybody like that that escaped.

These were very high-level, very important people. And maybe we leave the top one towards the end because he's kind of the guy, guy. Him and Mangle, or Mangley, however you pronounce it, kind of in the same realm. but these first two guys Gustav Wagner was nicknamed the Beast and he was the SS deputy commander over

Sorbeber death camp I don't know if it's Sorbeber but just a very German name while he was the deputy commander they put to death 250,000 people

in the gas chambers and he was known as the beast because he would go ahead and meet up with all of the Jews that were coming into the camps right off the train cars. And if anybody looked at him funny or if anybody made on contact with him, he would just grab them, pull them out of the line and beat them to death in front of everybody else. he was known to dismember yeah it's a bad guy we won't get into the rest of that but very bad individual

and he so we need to explain rat lines first that's what we need to get to okay so put that on hold for a second rat lines were something that was it was basically a system of escape routes that were used by non- Nazis and fascists that were trying to flee Europe after World War II.

A lot of these were set up in different ways, different countries. There were multiple rat lines that would go to places of safety. Italy, still decently safe place. Like you said, Spain was a major rat line, but it was sort of a jumping off point. Italy in a sense, maybe not like what you're thinking of. Italy itself wasn't safe, but there were certain places that were safe. There were monasteries all around that would be able to protect these people. Let's just fucking, let's just talk about that connection.

Okay. Let's not dance around that. The fucking Catholic Church and their, then the fucking rat lines they supported. I'm sorry that we're about to do this as Catholic people. If you're a devout Catholic, I apologize for what's about to happen. Like, we're not doing this. This was already done. Yeah.

So there was a bishop named, is it, Alois Houdal? Yep. And he was Austrian and he was a Nazi sympathizer. He was a bishop in Italy. And this guy basically helped to facilitate Nazi, no Nazi war criminals, get new identities, new names, and then would then use his influence

to get them push through for passports. Because these aren't just like, you still have, you had to have a passport. passport this time, especially after World War II getting out of Europe, they knew that there was so many fucking unaccounted for war criminals, you know, due to either the Nuremberg trials and names coming out or even previous to the Nuremberg trials. But they were trying to find as many of these people. There was activity to try to find a lot of other people during this time.

And so this motherfucker is getting fucking permits for and identity changes for these war criminals, getting them fucking to help him get them passports and like passports the only way you could get them at this point is you had to go through the Red Cross so he's fucking using his position to go through the fucking Red Cross

the fucking organization that's trying to help like the help to during out the entire war on all sides coming from all different countries so there's so many branches out that the Red Cross can help facilitate these moves if they don't know who these people are.

And I mean, the rat lines aren't exclusive through the church, but they had a big fucking hand in doing it. And they had like a system of fucking monasteries that were where they would transport these fucking war criminals before they were able to get them self-path or, you know, safe passage out of the country.

They were all over Europe too. It wasn't just going through Italy. There were probably rat lines that were established by the, you know, Franco regime to get Nazis out through Spain. Switzerland. Yeah, man, just a lot. If you have the money, then the whole Swiss neutrality thing, that becomes very serious.

Or they're very serious about that. We remain neutral, but if you have the money, we will not stop you from doing anything. Yeah, Swiss bank accounts. I mean, it's sort of their MO. If you got the money, we got the time. That's what, yeah, that's why it's synonymous with no questions. So, getting back into Gustav Wagner, he actually used

Hidal to escape the country and when he escaped the country he escaped with our next guy, Franz Stangle that we'll talk about but he escaped

and on his false Red Cross credentials and on his false Argentinian passport his name was changed to Gunther Mandel so name

change, try to make some stuff to cover him up. He actually when he got down there, he worked for some wealthy Brazilians at first, which seems sort of odd that he would be like a helper. But in working in Brazil, he kind of made a life for himself. He was one of the

Nazis that escaped that didn't have sort of like a fancy lifestyle. I mean, he tried to keep a low enough profile that when they actually kind of found him, which we won't get into the whole story, kind of cool.

It involves a blind guy who recognized the last name, Eichmann. Oh, shit. Wrong one. We'll get to him. Yeah, we'll get to him. But after he ends up... What did Stingle, what was his like?

Is he just kind of synonymous for being the guy that also escaped with Gustav Wagner? Or do they know his position or kind of what he did? He escaped with him. He actually was the... the commandant of there were three Nazi camp or Nazi death camps that were happening in the same area. There was Triblinka Sorbador, whatever the fuck that is again. And then there was a third one, didn't write it down.

But it was basically a triangle that Stungle looked over. So Stengel was a, they had a connection. Okay. Here's what I'm getting at. He was aware of the Holocaust? Oh, very where. Yes. Okay.

We're criminal. That's what I'm just trying to make the distinction. Stangle wasn't just like a fucking captain in the SS that really didn't have knowledge of that. And he just happened to be is like, hey, you're coming with me, little buddy. He had a hand in the Holocaust. He was nicknamed the white death. We'll get to him. Oh, okay.

Very important guy to him. So coincidentally, after Stangle gets caught, Stengel rats out, Wagner, and tries to basically. they try to smoke him out to try to help Stengel's case. He turned himself into Brazilian authorities. They're kind of wishy-washy about extradition. Not really a big deal. He ends up committing suicide October 3rd,

and these numbers just scare me how recent they are. 1980 doesn't sound like it was very recent, but it's just too recent. It's much too far from 45. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You get to live a whole fucking... God, this is what fucking pisses me off is he got to live a life.

Yeah. Here we go, though. So the suicide that he committed when his body was found, he was actually stabbed 16 times in the torso. I'm not great at thinking of like these sort of situations. He has stabbed about 5 million plus more times.

Not that, but it seems like if you're going to commit suicide stabbing yourself 16 times, probably isn't the right way to do it. So me thinks that there's a chance that either Massad, some angry Jewish folks that were in the area, found out about him. Depending on the time,

now that you just said that, depending on the lapse of time between when he turned himself in to when he committed suicide, if there was enough time for a fucking Mossad agent to get on a plane to get over there, chances are he fucking didn't commit suicide. And that part makes me very happy.

I would think that stabbing yourself 16 times probably isn't the most efficient way too in your life, especially in the torso. That seems like more of an anger stab. So that's our first guy. Franz Stengel that we just talked about. He worked on something called the T4 Euthanasia program, and it was basically a way

to kill any people that had mental lapses, deformities, anything like that, just an absolute awful guy. He was a commandant. of those three death camps that I was telling you about, he oversaw 100,000 deaths at Sorbobor with Gustav, and he oversaw 900,000 at Treblinka. And the reason that he was called the white death was he always wore like a white general's coat, and he would carry around a whip with him.

And if anybody that he saw was out of line or disrespected him, he'd break out the whip and just whipped the shit out of use. you to death in front of everybody else. So another very bad actor. He escaped, like I said, with Hidal. When they get to Brazil, he actually worked for Volkswagen. So there's that German connection. We're a German company.

Welcome. I don't know if he knew some people that were higher up in Volkswagen or what. What was his name? What was his new name? I didn't see that he went under an assumed name. That's kind of the weird thing about some of these people is some of them go under assume name like Wagner did, but then some of them just ran with their old name. That's going to bring up an interesting point when we get to Eichmann. With?

Eichmann. Oh, yeah. Yep. So he ends up getting captured, 1967, brought back to, I believe it was Israel. No, no, no, he was actually part of the Nuremberg trials, I believe. Here's one of the things, too, is when at the end of the war, after kind of everything shook out, Berlin got divided or Germany got divided and everything, there were a lot of during the setup for the Nuremberg trials and everything, there was a lot of people trying to capture Germans, taking accounts from Holocaust survivors about everybody that they could remember the camps. There were a lot of survivors that came forward almost immediately and got to work, trying to do. thing. A guy that you guys might be familiar with his name, Simon Wiesenthal.

There's a place called the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. That's actually who called it Stingle. Oh, was it? Yep. Okay. So Simon Wiesenthal was, he survived like fucking five death camps. Like he survived, and then they started getting pushed back because they were the first one he was in

was closer to the Russian front or the and so as they got pushed back, they they wouldn't let him get fucking liberated by it. They would transfer the fucking that's your workforce so he survives like five fucking camps and one of the first things he does

even being weak and everything like that he starts putting down names starts taking accounts from other Jewish survivors and other camp survivors starts basically building a rolodex of like the worst motherfuckers and guess what he knew a lot of bad fucking assholes because he was in five different fucking camps yeah

and he was very good of remembering names remembering details about them, but the whole point that I think we were kind of getting to early on in the podcast was that these guys, they just saw their faces. They knew their names in some situations and maybe knew some details that,

you know, some gossip like information around camp that people picked up on and everything. But man, how, okay, you have no hair when you're, you know, the fucking Nazi asshole in the camp, you grow your hair on your grow a beard. You look different all of a sudden. You got new, you know, this isn't like, you know, papers at this time would be kind of hard to get forged, but not when you got fucking friends in the Catholic Church with infinite resources.

Well, and we're not talking about today's credentials either. Like, all of our IDs, I'm pretty sure all across the country have a hologram on them. Holograms were not even in the realm of thought. Picture quality wasn't great. No. It was black and white. Most of them, they didn't even have pictures. All they had to go on was just height, weight, hair color, eye color, and, and, you know, they're not.

and then name and date of birth. Like all that shit can be faked and memorized. I think after, because the passports were so scarce, trying to get out of there, I think they probably up security a little bit. But honestly, man, you got the resources. You're a bishop in the Catholic church. You have the resources. And who knows if it just stopped at that bishop?

That was the only one that maybe took the follower was identified for that shit. You're telling me that here's the thing. You know what the Catholics hated communism, right? Okay. Guess who hated communism too? The fucking Nazis. Guess who was in Italy? Guess the fucking Nazis?

like it the fucking connections as a part of the axis I mean it all there's a really weird web of connection there but even to like what I'm trying to get is even for like people like this to be able to they're still fighting this fight

45 is when this ends in Germany and everything you still have places in I think it was West Germany that are trying to go ahead and take an accounts and hunt for these people within Germany proper and Europe then you have like Simon Wiesenthal who's in the United States and he was kind of back and forth, I think also into Germany and everything.

But you have him in 67 still taking accounts from survivors that are coming, that he's going and interviewing, trying to hunt down these people that might have escaped justice. And that's just fucking crazy. It's amazing. He's getting intel from potential Jewish Holocaust survivors that have positively IDed him down in Brazil. And then when they, that's the whole point. It's when they finally capture him, guess what? He has all these people that can put.

them in court in front of, you know, whoever they're putting in front of in Israel or whoever they're taking them in front of. Because, of course, I'm guessing there still had to be a body of the Nuremberg, whatever, you know, department that they would have to go in front of. There were multiple Nuremberg trials, I believe. And you would have people to be able to, you know, identify that person and say, that is exactly who it was and make accounts of them, multiple people. Yeah.

And it's, it just didn't happen enough. No, no. Well, and how could it? I mean, if we're talking about 200,000 people that escaped, there's no way that you're to be able to find all of them. And like I said about Stengel, he actually rolled on Wagner to try to make his case look better, try to get a little bit of leniency, still served life in prison. I wonder if maybe the Wagner Tip maybe saved him from the gallows.

What did it happen to him? He just lived out his life in jail, died. So not a great ending there. hopefully his jail cell was really, really bad. Where at? I think it was back in Germany. I'm not positive on that. I just know, I'm pretty sure it was Nuremberg trials that took place in Germany.

So maybe it was, since it was more of a world court, they kind of... Do you think that someone like that gets put into an American jail at that time? That person's dead very, very quickly. Rape, stabbed. Yeah. Family member of a soldier or something like that. if you put them in around this time 67 is still

you know 22 years removed do you still have a presence of those soldiers and those criminals being in that prison system that makes life too comfortable for them in there or do you have people in there that have flipped a switch and are so against you destroying their country

and all this shit that you do get fucked up I like I hope the latter and not only did you destroy their country you brought shame to every person that is in that. Or every person that didn't know what the fuck you were doing and you didn't find out, your general populace didn't find out about it until after the war.

Yeah, I just don't think that it would have been a good life for him in prison. This next guy, I don't really think he needs a whole lot of introduction just because I don't want to go through. This stangle thing with the T4 just kind of fucked me up. But Yosef Mengel. Mengle, however you say it, the angel of death

he was kind of Hitler's right-hand doctor he conducted experiments on prisoners at Auschwitz which he was wasn't he essentially the he wasn't the head of like facilitator there were other guys that were like facilitators of the Holocaust but wasn't he like the head of the eugenics

program and everything like that too R&D he was kind of the the experimenter he was the one that was feeding them these chemicals that they were then giving to the soldiers like the whatever their meth was called. He was testing that on,

I can't use the word prisoners. What else was used for prisoners? Captives? Captives, it's concentration camps. And it's pretty common knowledge that Auschwitz was... Hostages? Yes, hostages. So he would perform experiments on them.

He would pull them... you'd pull them out of the line at the gas chambers, do experiments on them, whether they failed or... Living. Yeah, living. Whether they failed in trials or they lived to see the other side, then they'd just be gassed again. I'd just a, truly just a prick. Just a bad fucking person. Mangley hid in Germany for about three years after.

It makes me sad that these people existed. And I know, like, I get horrible. people have existed throughout history insanely horrible people maybe people worse than this and everything but no I I know what I mean by that is this not that these people weren't horrible

I'm just trying to think of like you know back into the time when the to the victors would write the history you you did have people that Mangley is evil in its own just disgusting like the most evil like heinous way

what I'm saying is you also have throughout history you have warlords or like think of like some of the shit Genghis Khan did he did wipe out a ton of people and might have done so at certain whims and might have what I'm saying is

there's been romanticized versions of like Genghis Khan to where like and it's been so far removed and there's probably not so much written history about the douchebag that Genghis Khan could be but like with with Mangalai

it's just like how could evolved an evolved society like have still have a person like people like this not just this I mean there's special places in fucking hell this is the thing that makes me want hell to be real

even though I know like having nothing I just hope there's a place for bad people yeah fuck it if you're if you don't have any place to go if you're good that's cool let you just you know let your fucking whatever your essence rest but there needs to be a place where fucking truly spectacular assholes

get their comeuppance for the rest of eternity. There needs to be a place like in Little Nicky where Adolf gets a pineapple shoved up his ass. All of them should have to just human centipede for all time.

Like we talked about off air. And it's nothing about the cuddlefish. These guys they make me go to spots in my brain for torture and thought that I don't really like go into and that I wouldn't really be proud to share.

But, I mean, I feel like I could get over a lot of my issues with torture. I wish these people would have had to experience what they subjected people to. But in a way that kept them having to like, no, instead of leaving you open, we're going to stitch you up and wait until you're better and then we're going to do this fucking shit again.

We're going to perform surgery on you while you're alive. We're not going to go beyond what you did to these other people. We're going to have the best doctors around to keep you alive. Just so we can fuck with you. just so we can do this as long as we possibly can. And I don't, I fucking hate the fact that he, he wasn't like discovered for as long. And by the time they did find him,

it was just fucking pointless at that time. Yeah, I don't know Mengele's whole thought process after getting out because they did say that he collected fucking damn near as much paperwork that he created as he could to bring with him. so he was bringing a lot of the records. He kept moving like closer into German occupied territory. He would move in different fucking concentration camps and then keep doing his fucking experiments as he kept getting the front kept getting pushed back.

Well, yeah, once he hit Auschwitz, I think that was kind of like his coup de grace. But he was helped through Catholic clergy in Italy. He ultimately ended up in Brazil too. And he, he had a stroke and drown. 1979. That was how he died. In 1979, again, far too close, far too far away from 1945. Yeah, the motherfucker got to have a life.

Yep. We wanted proof of him. Oh, so getting back to the paperwork aspect that we were talking about a little bit ago. So, Mangelae was actually held up in Italy because they thought that he was Joseph Mangley. He told them that he wasn't him, but it was just... He was held up by... actual authorities.

Yes. Okay, so not by the church. The church wasn't like, you may be a little extreme for us. The church was like, no, no, we'll fucking get you through. But then when he actually got to the point of getting out of like,

probably customs or something, then that's when he got. Yeah. Okay. So the authorities held him up. Yeah, at that point, I'm guessing that since, because you said he hid for three years, right?

Yeah. After three years, guess what, your picture, because at that point, too, the only way that they have pictures on a lot of these guys is after they had like gone through, and raided, like, the Nazi archives and found, like, their files and everything.

Got their intel. That's how they ended up getting their pictures. And if Mangelae hasn't been accounted for at this point, you can guarantee that his picture has probably been circulated to every, you know, I don't know who you consider, like, that's doing customs. It would have to be some type of, like, allied occupation, maybe. Or at that point, at, yeah. Three years after, at least probably a little bit more, a little less sympathetic.

Yeah. So, he. gets held up. They say you're Joseph Mangley. He goes, uh, I am but I'm not that Joseph Mangley. They say we don't really believe you. He goes, no, no, no, no, check me over. I promise it's just

a weird name coincidence. I don't know how popular that name is in Germany. I'm going to say the fact that I've never heard that same last name with any other first name, probably not too common. But when they were checking him over, they were checking over his body. And this is something that kind of fucking

not the SS, but but what they did in the concentration camps to the hostages, the way that they would tattoo numbers and assign numbers to people. That, like, that shit makes me want to cry. Like, to think that those people, the survivors of the Holocaust still have to look down and see that shit. It's just fucking, it's amazing. But the SS also got their numbers tattooed on them for, like, they were number 8,966. But as a point of fucking pride.

Yep, as a point of pride. Mangalais was such a vain bastard that he wouldn't let them tattoo the SS number on him so when they checked him over he goes I don't have any markings that Mangley had he would obviously have an SS tattoo because everybody did they said okay your story must be right go ahead and keep going I know there's more to this

I'm just curious about this if he was his identification wouldn't have said Joseph Mangley so if they suspected him of being Joseph Mangley I assume they would have suspected him based on a appearance, and that might be completely wrong. At that point, why would he say,

my name is Joseph Mangley, I'm just a different one that looks. I'm not saying that, maybe they didn't have visual. Maybe they just had a description of what he looked like. Well, and they saw the name. The name is completely. What I'm saying, though, is when his forged documents. I don't know if he had that many forged documents, honestly. Okay.

Just because of the fact that I think kind of playing the whole vanity aspect. He got to Brazil. He got through. Yeah. by some way. Playing on the whole vanity aspect, he probably maybe took a point of pride and not changing that

because he wanted people to know kind of who he was. Because he didn't change his name when he got to Brazil either. That's true. And so maybe that was sort of like he wanted a little bit of recognition. Ran into some hot water in Brazil.

I guess they were investigating him for performing surgeries and things like that without a license, which is scary to think about that he's actually trying to work on people again after what he did. We wanted proof. that it was actually

Joseph that died in the accident so his son actually had him exhumed and they did a DNA test they matched him up that was him that was his final resting place just to

I wanted to dig deeper into this part that kind of fits in with Mangalae but we don't really have a ton of time so I'll just kind of hit the Oh we got time don't you worry yourself

about time so one of the ways Mangalai got into Brazil, they think that he was transported through Chile. And in Chile, he stopped off at a place allegedly called the Colonia Dignidad. And the Colonialdegnod... The colony or the, what is it, the dignity quality? Yeah, something like that. It was founded by a guy named Paul Schaefer in 1961.

Schaefer was a member of the, what they called the Nantes Air Force? Vermacht. Vermoct. No, Luftwaffe. He was a Vermach's, I remember reading, he was in the Vermaq, he wasn't in the Luftwaffe.

The vermouth was just kind of the blanket term for their military, including the Air Force. But then like you had like, the Navy was the Kriegis Marine and then the Air Force, yeah. So after the war, he kind of tried to go into hiding a little bit.

He was kind of like a traveling pastor for this organization that was a religious organization, wasn't really tied in with the Catholic Church. I got a lot of, fuck, who did we just talk about that was the Davidians?

Kresh, I got some, I got some weird. A lot. Yes. Like, I'm thinking like, I feel like David Koresh got some inspiration from this dude.

It's a wildly apt comparison. Yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna hit some points that's gonna drive that point home for you, for the listeners. Yeah,

number one, he had a predation for children. And he, as a pastor, was finally removed from the church after he was working with an orphanage and they found out that he was molesting children. Something that he kind of tried to hide,

but you can only hide molesting kids for so long as the Catholic Church knows. So he ended up fleeing to Chile, he, Chile brings his followers down there. They buy a plot of land from the president, Jorge Alessandri, I think Chile probably had a little bit of good feeling towards Germans, and this could have probably played a role in it.

I think they probably had some type of established relationship, or at least turning a blind eye to it. Could be, yeah. So Paul doing in Quresh before Koresh, when he creates Colonia Dignad, it was outside of town. It was kind of in a more rural area where they had, like they were surrounded by farmers, different places, that would sort of protect them in a way.

The Koresh method, he separated husbands and wives. He separated children from their parents. This was one of the interviews that I saw on hunting for Hitler that I would put a lot of credence to because it was actually a child that was in Dignidad when everything happened while Schaefer was still there. he said that they would have people that would come through and he would be able to see them as they were greeted in

but then they were whisked off to private areas that this kid dude he's a grown man at this point but as a child they knew that they weren't allowed to go into certain areas in the colony and he said that he saw a guy named Walter Ralph which was another bad guy that we won't get into. He actually said that he may have seen Mangalai come through there too. So it was almost like a port of passage. Well, and it's not even like it could have been a port of passage.

They could have just been moving, you know, trying not to be in one place for too long. Could be. Especially if, you know, we kind of had this discussion about how many people do you think actually got caught versus how many people do we think the Mossad and other maybe less other organizations that aren't as forthcoming with their information, rightfully so,

actually caught versus how many we are known to get caught. So all you got to do is what if your buddy down the street disappears, you want to move somewhere, you move to another friendly area. So not even saying that he had to come through this place right when he got there, he could have came through this place at any point.

If you're going to say that there's obviously a established network of Nazis in South America. You're going to tell me that they're not all somehow connected or can't communicate with each other and know where each other are. Could have absolutely been just kind of like a safe house. He could have been on tour. Yep. Yeah, he could have been tour in South America. But as he had everybody separated, it kind of became like a work camp and they were pretty self-sufficient.

But he also would do things to kind of bring in. the people outside of the compound. Like he started a school and he would invite all the farmer's children and everything like that to come there. It was basically like a mini-Hitler youth that he was keeping on the colony. And fucking dittle farm is what it was.

Yeah. And that's literally what it was. He was actually still molesting these children. He was, so they had a, in the children's quarters where they kept all the kids and separated everybody, he was the only adult that was allowed to be in the children's quarters.

That's where he's, stayed generally most of the time. So if you're the only adult that's able to hang out with a bunch of kids and your child molester, that's like being a kid in a candy store, I guess he would say. Like, he just, he had his pick of the litter.

And just very weird. And not only that, but there was a guy who I love the fact that his name is Pinoche, because obviously vagina and Spanish. Not spelled the same. But Pinocha

came to power. I'm not even saying it right. I just keep saying Pinochae because it's fun. Pinochet. Pinochet. Yeah, whatever. Pinochet. I don't know. I like Pinoche better. He becomes a Chilean president and Schaefer actually strikes a deal with him that any political

prisoners that Pinochet has he sends to the colonia and they torture them, they kill them, they keep them in basically slavery. This is so people can kind of get a modern view of it. Weirdly enough, you know the show Jack Ryan,

the one with Jim from the office. The plot of the second season was the president of, fuck, it might have been Argentina. It's a South American country. I can remember which one. He actually has a camp that he sends his political distance to, people that speak out and everything. And they end up like it's kind of like a work camp slash like death camp.

it's exactly what what this is. Yeah, and maybe that's where they got the plot from it. It just, it seems so crazy that he would be so in with the Chilean president that Pinochet would send his political, it was basically a black site for the president. Yeah, he's like, I can, I'll take these people off your hand. You're never going to hear, you're never going to hear from them again unless you want to, let me know. Yeah, just a very, very simple probably, I mean, that has. had to have come from his Nazi understandings of how things worked, that he could be that guy for Pinochet.

But just a very terrible place that was just, it was a cult. I mean, after Schaefer ended up leaving, because finally Pinochet's successor figured out that this was a very bad place where very bad things were going on. So he got the heat turned back on him. He went over to Germany. But he had the people so brainwashed that after he left, they would rarely ever venture off the colony's grounds.

They didn't know anything else. He kept him so isolated and so insulated that they probably didn't know that there was anything out there or were scared of it. Well, and the guy that they talked to in the hunting Hitler, not documentary, show, the guy that they talked to said that the only things that they knew was they knew north, they knew south, they knew east, they knew west, they knew the Chilean president, and then they were just taught about Nazi upbringing and understanding. They do nothing of the world besides that.

So they wanted to keep themselves together because that was really all they knew. All they knew was Schaefer's teachings and all they knew was... That's exactly what he did with the Hitler youth in Germany. That's what they were doing. They were just raising a completely obedient and subservient populace. Just an absolutely terrible place. And he ended up going back to Germany, excuse me, hung out there for a long, long time.

and ended up finally getting arrested. He was sentenced to 20 years for just child rape. I mean, at that point, I guess you're just trying to stack whatever you can on them. I think they might have, like, kind of connected him to some of the political prisoners, like, disappearing or something like that. But what they could make stick because of all of the fucking witnesses and, like, people that were, like, coming forward and would talk about it was, I think, the child. Well, and this was back in Germany. So this was already where he got kicked out of the church over there for, Okay, gotcha.

So he was, he's brought up on charges that happened prior to him going to South America. And this isn't saying that he starts doing this in 61. That's just when he founded the Colonia Dignad in 61. But between 61 and fucking 2006, what's that, 45 years? He doesn't fucking, that's, he's living on the outside. I'm glad we're ending. I'm glad we're going to go ahead and get into one that finally got their fucking comeuppance, to a degree. Yeah, a man who I'm sure took great pride in to share.

his first, it was either his first or middle hour the Germans do it, but Adolf Eichmann. Mm-hmm. A guy that shared the same name as Adolf. Before we get into Mr. Eichmann, I got it pay. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right, well, we take a break from class

and take care of some business. You can also take care of some business. If you don't follow us on Instagram or Twitter already, our Instagram handle is historically high pod. That's historically high. P-O-D. And our Twitter is historically high. That's historically H-I. All right. And back

to our show. All right. Adolf Eichmann. So Eichmann was actually in charge of basically facilitating, managing, like, the logistics involving getting, you know, Jews, anyone that was part of the Holocaust, any of those groups that they deemed, what was it, it was like gypsies, it was, I'm trying to remember what groups were like, because it does encompass a lot of different groups, basically anyone that the Nazi regime deemed undesirable. Yeah, I think the Polish were a part of it, the gypsies were a part of it. Obviously, anybody of the Jewish, not only faith, but the Jewish supporters. Yeah.

Stuff like that. So basically he was involved with the transport to these Nazi ghettos and then the camps. And he was actually captured initially by the Allies, but he ends up escaping and has false papers. He was the architect of the final solution. Yes. That was the kind of level that we're talking about with Eichmann. Just at an insanely high ranking member of the SS and of just the entire political machine that was the Nazis. I mean, to be able to be the one to say that you created the death camps that ultimately killed over 6 million people is that's a big dude.

Well, and here's the thing, too, is he didn't initially run. He was kind of like Buck and Mangley. He hung out. He actually went and got a job like in the lumber industry. He lived in this really small German town. It was Alton Salkoff, some shit like that. I looked it up. It was like a population like 85.

So minimizing people that might recognize you. And kind of what actually spooked him into making a move was during the Nuremberg trials, a lot of evidence was pointed directly at him. His name was brought up a lot. Yeah, no shit. Yeah. in his Yeah, no shit

In his capacity For the You know Responsibility for the Holocaust And This is where Bishop Alois Houdal

Comes in Like a fucking Guardian Angel He gets what's called A landing permit To Argentina In the name of Ricardo Clement

And he swept him off To Genoa and Italy And he stayed in the monastery And that was Transported through like Ten a system Of like ten monasteries It said getting him down there

And because it was from essentially a bishop's endorsement and he had this landing permit to Argentina, so landing permit is different than a passport. The landing permit basically shows that you have a reason to go to Argentina. Which was the Red Cross documents? No, no, he used that to then get the Red Cross documents with the bishops, yeah, with the bishops, kind of his, like blessing. So he ends up, like you said, going from Genoa to Buenos Aires by ship, and that was in 1950. Kind of

worked some regular jobs. Again, he's not going by his real name or anything. And then ends up getting a job at, I think, Mercedes. Yep. Mercedes-Benz plant in Buenos Aires, which I think I saw, it has got to be bad numbers, is the fifth largest population

of Jewish people outside of Israel. So a very large, Jewish population. Eichmann ends up in a town. German Jewish. Here's the thing. Because he could probably try to pass essentially as just a German. It probably wasn't uncommon for there to be both German Jewish people, German people just in general.

And so, again, it's one of those situations where, first of all, maybe it's easier to blend in where there's a much larger crowd. Also, maybe a lot of, he assumed a lot of these people that were already established here were there prior to the Holocaust. cost and World War II, and so they wouldn't have a personal, you know, recognition of him. No, and he could just kind of blend right in. You're also fucking desperate. So you're just going to go kind of where they can.

And who's to say that once he did get to Buenos Aires, he wasn't kind of sheltered also by church or support system there? Yeah, I would say maybe that he almost was so concerned about it that he wasn't, because when they end up finding him, they find him. They find him at first, this is the part that I fucked up with Wagner, but they found him living in a, like a shitty low-rent area of Buenos Aires, outside of the kind of little Germany that they had. You mean when the Massad found him?

So, this was a story I was getting to. So obviously, he changed his name. we might have different stories ooh really yeah I think so because you mentioned something about a blind guy yeah so okay I'm I they might tie it together they might just have the like yeah so he changes his name

but his wife and his son don't change theirs so their last name is still Ikeman he sends for them in 52 I was actually getting to that so he sends for them in 52 and the blind guy, did he have a daughter? Yep. Okay. That's where we're getting there.

Okay, we're the same story. Yes, this is literally like, I don't know. Have you ever seen the movie Munich? The one where the Mossad goes after the people responsible for that bombing in which a bunch of Israelis were killed. It was during one of the Olympics. I'm sorry, I'm like not providing details on this, but the movies called. Munich. Munich.

Yeah, I've never seen it. Sorry, the Munich, obviously the Munich Olympics. Sorry. But it's about these Mossade agents that essentially. go after the ones responsible for this. And not saying it was like Nazis or anything like that, but this is where you start to see like the network of how information starts getting back in like really small ways. Yeah.

Do you want to jump in? Yeah. So there was a couple things leading up to this that kind of was letting them in on clues. So with Eichmann, his father actually died in 1960. And so Simon Wiesenthal comes back into play here. And at some point, he receives like a letter in, I think he was like 53, or he learns from a letter shown him in 53, that Eichmann had actually been seen in Buenos Aires.

And he basically passed that information onto like the Israeli consulate in Vienna in 54. Eichmann's father dies in 60, and Wiesenthal is like, okay, if he's going to come out for anything, if this guy is still around. I'm going to hire a bunch of detectives to surveil the funeral, and they don't see Eichmann, but they see his brother Otto.

And apparently, like, word on the street is that Otto and Adolf, Eichmann, share very strong resemblance. So they have, like, photos now of what possibly he could look like now aged a little bit. Go ahead with your part, and then we'll just kind of go back and forth on this because we've got the same story.

Yeah, so, this blind guy has a daughter and Lothar Herman Lothar Herman yep Was the guy's name? Yeah so he was a German He was a Jewish German who had immigrated to Argentina in 1938 And he had a daughter Sylvia

Sylvia Started hanging out and started dating What was the kid's name? Klaus? Oh Klaus Eichmann Eichmann Yeah So

she comes home she starts telling her dad about Klaus and he hears the last name Eichmann he's like oh shit Eichmann huh Klaus likes to talk too

It's an interesting name Klaus likes to talk about daddy Yep what daddy used to do in the past And he was a I'm sure passed down Probably Nazi by blood obviously but also just

By the brainwashing that his parents gave him. Yeah, wrote Chattie Kathy. And as he explains that to Sylvia, Sylvia explains that to her dad, he passes it along to... Fritz Bauer, who was the prosecutor general of... It's called the state of Hesse in West Germany.

So he was basically someone who was connected with the association still prosecuting or looking to prosecute a skateboarder. criminals. I just I don't know, man. I don't really believe in coincidence, but I feel like this is just a major, like, crazy.

Well, Lothar wasn't even done at that point. He was like, okay, he sends his daughter back in on a fact-finding mission, and she goes over to their house. She's met at the door by Eichmann. Not the son, Adolf. And he was like, oh, I'm

Klaus's uncle. Yep. Yeah. And then Klaus gets home a little while after that while she's still waiting there and then addresses him his father. So that immediately, she just knows. She knows that he lied. And I don't know what Eichmann's name was. He was an assumed name. His last name wasn't Eichman.

No, it was Clement. Yeah, Clement. He was going by Ricardo Clement. That's right. Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's pretty much, they know that the jig is up at that point. They know that Ricardo Clement is, Eichmann, and how does that get to, is it because they declined charges in West Germany?

So what ends up happening is in 57, Bauer, who's over there in West Germany, he actually passed that information, and I'm guessing the further information that, you know, the guy in Argentina had provided them. He passes that actually over to the Mossad director. His name is, I'm going to butcher this. It's ISSER, I'm sorry, Heral. and he is a science operatives to undertake surveillance. But during that surveillance, they don't find any concrete evidence. You know, they can't just go off a name and everything. The house that they're living into is leased by two people's names that aren't Clement or Eichmann.

Yeah. So the families that live there aren't matching up with the families that they have the information that live there. There's not enough for them to actually move on it. Because at this point, too, it's not just, you know, they have to talk about extradition. that has to be kind of the legal way to we have to prove enough beyond a reasonable doubt that this is who it is and that we need to extradite him for trial in Israel. Well, Bauer really doesn't actually trust part of the German government to get him extradited. He kind of thinks that if he went to like the German police or the legal system thought they were going to inform him might likely tip off Eichmann. And so that's why he went directly to the Mossad.

And then when Bauer actually called on the German government to get Eichmann extradited with some of this information, he got a negative response to it. Now, I don't know if the negative response was from the German government. It kind of sounds like that. Or if it was from Argentina. But the other thing, too, is, is Argentina going to extradite on some information? I don't know if they are supportive still at this point. So, yeah, I don't know if you brought it up and maybe I just missed it. Masad is basically like the Secret Service of Israel. Yes. No, CIA. CIA of Israel. Yes.

So it's an organization that has a very deep stake in the Jewish people and is looking for justice for their fallen people. Like out for it. Yeah. Yeah. Like full, full blown. They're ready to go. Watch me, Nick. You'll get an idea of what a small Mossad squad is capable of doing.

And this isn't just like a ragged hat This is literally like I just said like Sending out like surveillance and crews To this country to go ahead and find this information Are you gonna Talk about the delivery boy No I didn't know about go ahead with the delivery boy thing

So after they show up I think it was Mossad Sent some secret agents in To try to get a hold of Aikman at the house They show up at the house They find out that the house is actually now vacant. So Eichmann must have known

that they were a little hot on him or something or maybe they, he sort of wanted to move. So the people that were there working on the house were, I think, maybe like updating it, something like that. But Mossad decides to bribe a fake delivery boy to go over and say that he had a president for Clement.

And he said, sorry, man, doesn't live here. anymore. He goes, okay, well, it's a present. He really wants it. I'm from a prestigious hotel or something like that. I just, I need him, need to get him this present. Finally, they go ahead and spit up the new address. And they find that the new address is the right address for Clement. So they know at that point that they have the right address. They know where he lives. They know that he takes a train every day. A train or a bus?

I can't remember which one was. It was some type of public transportation. But Massad now knows his route from the house that he lives in now to the route that he takes to, it's like a coffee shop or like to work, something like that at the Ben's plant. So they know exactly his route to travel every single day. And then getting back to Mossad. So that's who actually determines that. Yeah. It's an agent for the.

Assad. There was also this German geologist. His name was Gerhard Klammer, and he had previously worked with Eichmann, like in the early 50s. He was actually able to provide the guy Bauer in West Germany. He was actually able to provide him with the address too and photographs. And that didn't come out, his identity, the clamor guy didn't come out until like 2021. So they had multiple pieces of information to determine not only just this guy who may not have talked to Eichman in a while, but also, like you said, the delivery boy, they were doing their homework. And So the director of the Mossad, he actually dispatched. Shinbet is basically like their black ops.

Chief interrogator to Buenos Aires on the first of March in 60. And basically, through surveillance, talking to people and everything, he's able to confirm Eichmann's identity basically after a few weeks. And like I was saying, Argentina actually did have a history of turning down extradition request for Nazi criminals. Constantly. Constantly. So what are you going to do?

well, you're going to go ahead and make sure that you don't have to go through the extradition channels. So like you were saying, they actually, the director, Harold, he arrived in May 60 to oversee the capture. And this guy named Rafi Eiton was named leader of the eight-man team. They basically just surveilled him. Like you said, they knew what his path was. They knew when he traveled it. and there was this stretch from like the bus stop or train stop, whichever he took, to his house. That was this long stretch of road next to like a big vacant field or like a farm field.

And they decided that that's where they were going to go and snatch him. So they're all set up in position. And I'm trying to remember what day it was. So the guys, while you figure that out, their plan of action was, they were going to pose as people that had a car broken down alongside the road. And as they were surveilling him, they knew the route that he was going to take. They knew where he was going to walk. So they knew that they'd have a pretty clear shot.

They set a van up down the road with, I think it was a driver and two associates that were in the back. I think there were four associates at the car. As Eichmann gets off the bus, I believe it was. bus, train, whatever it was. He goes walking along the sidewalk, and they know that that's their target, that's their John, if you will. And he goes walking by, they stop him for a second. Excuse me, excuse me, however they say it down there. Yeah, there was this guy, his Mossad agent, Peter Mulkin, he engaged him, and he's like, asked him in Spanish if he had a moment.

And they said Eichmann was frightened. He attempted to leave. Two other Mossade agents came to his aid. Three wrestled him to the ground, and after a struggle, moved him into the car and hit him in the floor under a blanket. I hope they fucking threw one of the black bags over his head. A true black bag job, yeah. They almost, they thought they had missed him, actually, because he had missed. He didn't show up on the normal bus, and I think they were getting kind of skittish, and then he showed up on the bus half hour later.

That's right. Yeah, so they thought that they may have had a failed attempt, but then he still showed up anyway. So after they end up snagging him, he's taken to one of these Mossad safe houses that they had set up by the team. He's held up for nine days. And basically during that time, his identity was like double-checked and confirmed. And then Harold, the director was still there overseeing it. He was like, while I'm here, he was trying like, hell to locate Joseph Mangalay to see if he could bag two of them. But it got to the point to where Mangley had already kind of left his last known residence in the city.

and then Harold didn't have any other leads and they were like, we kind of have a finite amount of time to get fucking Eichmann out of here. So he had to give up the search on Mangalay that time and to get Eichman back. Did you see how they got Eichman back? Yeah, so we'll get to that. But one of the ways that they were able to identify him,

much like the Mangalai play, was when they stripped him down and they were looking for like scars or anything like that, they saw a scar on his, like under his right tit, and they know that that's where the table. tattoos were given for the SS. So he had gone to the length of actually cutting his own skin out to get rid of the number that he had tattooed on him so he wouldn't be found.

It didn't work. It's a lot of commitment. But I'm, I like, you can explain the first one. Did you know the second way that they were going to try to get him out of the first one didn't work? No, tell me that one. Okay, you do the first and then I'll give you the first and then I'll give you the backup plan. Okay. So on May 20th, Ikeman, he's sedated by an Israeli doctor who was part of the

Mossad team and he was dressed up like a flight attendant. So he smuggled out of Argentina aboard the same aircraft that had carried Israeli, Israel's delegation a few days earlier to like an official 150th anniversary celebration during like Argentina's May Revolution or something like that. So, I mean, they had this thing fucking time to go and cover their exit. They already had a delegation. They had a reason to go ahead and be on the flight. They weren't going to question all this. And then I just wonder, like, are we talking Ikeman like weekend at Bernie style?

Like he's in the flight attendant. They're just like one guy on each shoulder. And they're like, are you okay, sir? And they're just like, his head will nod. They like bounce him back and forth. And like, he's had too much to drink. So this is an unfortunate player in this whole event. But one of the,

of the guys that they brought over, they basically brought over that bore a striking resemblance to Eichmann. That was why he was chosen for the mission. And when they brought him over to Argentina, they went ahead and switched him out into his flight attendants uniform, and then they gave him the fake credentials of the guy.

That guy had to stay over in Argentina until they came back and picked him up. So they could smuggle Eichmann back in his decision. That guy's a goddamn hero, though. He is, but that's a pretty shitty job. He'd be like, hey man, you look like this terrible Russian, or this terrible German... That part, yes, horrible.

The part where they leave them in, they're like, hey, man, mission accomplished, we did it. Why don't you hang out here in fucking Buenos Aires? Lab of luxury. Yeah, on us, on the government. You can expense whatever you need to. Exactly. So if that didn't work, which luckily it did, but funny enough, if that didn't work, the second choice that they had was Massad had an inn with the company that provided the halal beef that would go, or, oh, that might have been a mistake.

Not halal beef You think of another meat? Holol is Muslim, I think. Kosher. Kosher, yeah, kosher beef. So Argentina was a major exporter of kosher beef. Kosher beef to Israel.

The second plan, if the plane didn't work, was they were actually going to drug them up and then they had a big ship that they were sending over to get the kosher beef to bring back to Israel. and they actually built a cabin for him in this big massive ship that was supposed to haul all this dead cattle back over there. Shit took three weeks.

He was going to be on this boat for three weeks. I almost wish he was on a boat. Yeah. Well, not saying that like the eight-man team would have been able to do a whole lot and everything, but just the fact that they would have been like we get Eichmann for three weeks out in the middle of international waters. with a bunch of dead cows on board so we can really fuck with this guy

so anyway they get him back to Israel they try him Argentina rages a big stink about it and they're like sorry might not have given him are you saying you are you raising a stink like you wouldn't have given them to us yeah like tough shit we got him so he ends up going

under over over I'm sorry to say he ends up going to trial on trial on trial and of course there's just a and litany of eyewitnesses, people on the stand identifying him. They're able to go over, of course, what they heard during the Nuremberg trials, but they're also able to get these eyewitness accounts of all these people they have

able to be reached out to in the case that any of these people get brought in for their testimony. He's found guilty. The entire time he's in court, he's happened to be encased in a bulletproof glass box to keep from being assassinated. Which I'm glad they did. Oh, that would have been God. Yeah, well, he's on.

trial. I want to see him get to the end. I don't want to see a cheap out where he gets shot by somebody and he gets assassinated. It's a sweet, sweet release. Like you say, obviously it's found guilty. That's pretty much the no-brainer of the century. Well, the whole time he's doing the fucking, I was just following orders. Like, you didn't see what was going on.

It was like I was just following orders. I'm trying to think. architect of the final solution. There was some shit that he had originally said. It didn't come out, you know, before the trial and everything. But apparently he had done a bunch of interviews with someone in Buenos Aires that they kept the tapes and everything. And the shit, I'm not going to repeat it.

No. Because it's just hanging shit and everything. But the stuff that he says during his interviews about the feeling and how he feels about, you know, the Holocaust and the final solution, it. Zero remorse. Just the most remorseless man ever. maybe second if you

all of you hoaxed you're like this is just somewhat like making up the worst thing they could think this wasn't what someone really thought or said but yeah he took no responsibility during the trial he he was using different examples of I think it was

fuck I can't remember it was something about children and the authority that is over children to do something that you don't question it or something some shit like that and then basically his last word to be reported were long live Germany, long live Argentina, long live Austria, and then, oh, the last part, this is why I even read this.

We'll meet again soon talking about his wife and family and friends, as is the fate of all men I die believing in God. Like, fuck you, dude. Like, I don't believe in that, but to even try to, after what, like, you think you're going to, you think if there is a God, you're going to fucking meet God. Well, one of the guards the night before, I don't know if it was a guard or somebody that met with him. As he was eating his final meal, he looked up at the dude and he said, hey, I hope your time isn't soon after mine. Or I hope your time is soon after mine.

Yes, he, like, whispered it to him or some shit like that while he was walking to fucking the courtroom or some shit. Just the most unrepentant, cut ever, just did not care. and kind of, you know, there's no silver lining to this, you know, this is a form of justice, but it didn't happen soon enough. But Eichmann's youngest son, his name's Ricardo Eichmann, has come out. He's not resent and full toward Israel for exhuming his father. He doesn't agree that his father's following orders, argument excuses his actions and observes how his father lacked remorseful cause. Remorse caused difficult emotions for the entire family. Yeah, man, not to kind of get off this topic, but you don't, like, what do those people go through when they're not responsible for it and when they're wholly against it? Like, you don't control anything in that situation. You just have to try to distance yourself from it. Like, you, you, you, you didn't know that person or maybe you did know what that. Because then you also have, I'm, you know, kind of comparing this guy to fucking, uh, Klaus. Like, Klaus apparently was, bragging about his father.

These are siblings. You got the youngest and like, Klaus bragging about his father's, which is hilarious that Klaus ends up getting his father fucking caught. Unless that was Klaus's plan. Maybe. Could be. If he had the same sentiment as the youngest child.

Yeah, I don't think his haircut suggests that. Why he comes in, dad, right when his girlfriend's sitting there, instead of, you know, uncle or any, Like, I don't know, maybe. Yeah, maybe there's a chance. This is something that I'm wildly interested in find fascinating what you were talking about.

Just the whole coming to grips as a country after such just a terrible atrocity. Probably, I mean, we've seen sort of mass genocides that are bigger than this, but not really on this scale as far as, I don't really know how to put it. Like there have been larger genocides, I think, than the Holocaust. We're still, we can still touch it. Yeah. There are still people, like you said, there are still people with that fucking number on their arm that are living today. And that will continue to live, especially like kids and everything that survived that are still going to live for years.

The thing that like a lot of this gets lost in numbers during the war and everything for like the Holocaust and like the severity of it. It's like you were just telling me when we were taking our break. Reading some of this stuff, even the stuff that we have to try to get out to explain how evil these fucks are, that's tip of the iceberg stuff. We could go on for an hour about the stuff that came out during Nuremberg trials and all this, but it would do nothing but make us want to fucking wrap these microphone cables around our necks and kill ourselves. Yeah, man. It's just, it's really, really bad stuff. But kind of getting back, like, reconciling that. how in the world can you do that how i i know just through a little bit of research and something that

like i say i'm wildly interested in want to know more about but there had to have been a reconciliation that happened if not with that first generation we even talked about a little bit like as a child growing up during world war two and then having to reckon with knowing that your father was in the SS or knowing that he He was a guard at one of these camps. How do you really reconcile that with your parents, your grandparents, anybody that could have been a part of it, as what was your justification for this now that we have a 30,000-foot view of everything that you did?

I mean, that's a cross that I don't really wish on anybody to bear, but that's just a crazy thought to think that you had to come to grips with trying to exterminate an entire group of people. I kind of think back on this weird and it was an ignorant example. But so when I think I was in my junior senior year of high school, there was a German exchange student and his name was Kai. And me and him actually got along and everything like that. And one of the things I think that I might have brought up or just is like being stupid. And of course, it's not an excuse.

I said something, I said the word Nazi or something like that. It might have just been like in the casual like even like him over hearing like Quit being a Nazi about that or some shit. Yeah. And he you could just instantly tell like the demeanor completely changed and he's like don't ever call me that He's like that's like don't even say that word around me. He's like that's not something that we We do and that and that kind of makes me you know of course that's a huge like look at how we still feel about like slavery and everything and that was I'm not it was that long ago, but it was less recent than this. And this is for, this isn't even a section that the whole country participated in this. Now, I mean, you've kind of had this conversation

about like, you know, it's the question, what did they know? Like the regular troops, what did they know? Again, this isn't the information age or anything close to it. This is, and this isn't even like most countries. This is a country completely run on every level by the Nazi party. party, whether it comes to news broadcast, propaganda, all that kind of stuff. The last thing that they're going to be putting out there is any information about what they're doing as far as the Holocaust goes and rounding up these people. Now, there is a huge amount of people that know about this because they're witnessing it. They're witnessing in their towns when families are getting rounded up. They're witnessing it in cities when, you know, ghettos are getting graded and everything like that.

So there are people that are aware of this. You know, maybe writing letters to the front. Maybe they're not writing letters to the front. Maybe they're just, you know, they've been led to believe by fucking Hitler that these are the people that are the cause of all of their problems. And the whole point is, is you're, he's making this country believe it when this country has nothing but problems, when they're still in the economic downturn of, you know, getting beaten in World War I. And they already saw that. There's people that have seen both of these world wars in their lifetime. And they're still willing. And somehow through, that's the thing is like, how many people just got, I'm not making excuses. I'm sorry if I sound like that. What I'm saying is like, you've

seen how many people in our own country get swept up in a movement without knowing essentially maybe what the nuts and bolts of that movement are. It's got a catchy tagline. It makes it sound like it's going to be good for us, but when you really boil down to it, it's not. It's what we represent? And that kind of makes me think of like, what percentage, if you were to break up the, you know, German populace, both military and everything, what percentage actually knew what was going on as far as the Holocaust? It was probably a pretty decent percentage. Because you had people working at all the camps, transportation, like you said, all the people in command that were aware of this and people handling all the logistics. You know, even if it's 5 to 10 percent and then 90 or 90 or whatever percent is, it doesn't know what's going on.

You're just essentially being told, hey, you're fighting to defend the fatherland. And then what if you are in that, in that percentage that didn't know what was going on? And you find out that not only did we lose the war, but that we were also doing this. And then you kind of look at yourself and you're like, oh, fuck, we, at what point does that, do you think that ever dawned me? Like, we were the bad guys there. Well, yeah, and from the start, I mean, the war in it of itself was, it wasn't in defense of their lands. The war was, they were pushing it. It wasn't like we were being attacked, so we had.

It wasn't like there was any question like, oh, we're, like, as soon as you hit Parrish, you're like, oh, when did we get into France? Yeah, they were taking ground. As soon as you start smelling the fucking baguettes and the croissants, you're in fucking France. And then you should know that you're in someone else's like sovereign fucking territory. But at the same time, if you have your fucking commander and you're all fucking messed up during the goddamn blitzkrieg, you're just fucking going where they point you to go. There's no, there's accountability on all sides. Like, you know, I'm not saying it's, it would be easy to fucking desert. the fucking military, but

you talk to enough people in your group, and there probably was a pretty large population or large percentage of, not large percentage, there was probably a large number of soldiers that tried to turn themselves in or did turn themselves in to Allied patrols and everything. They were like, eh, we found out some shit,

we really don't want to do this anymore. Well, and then it's also just, this just came to me, but it's always in the back of your mind, if you desert, is your family going to one of those concentration camps? Like, is everybody that you were over there fighting for. I don't think most people knew about him, man.

You don't think the soldiers did? Dude, like the scope of the battlefront and the occupied area was so big. And these, as big as when you look at the pictures of these concentration camps, yeah, man, they're fucking enormous and it's depressing as fuck that stuff happened. But then you, like, back up and extrapolate that.

And it's like two miles outside this little sleepy village. And they're doing that for the reason of trying to keep it seeking. Because the whole point is is we didn't find out about the about the Holocaust until after all I'm saying is that like Had at the Holocaust was meant to keep private That's why they also to transport it I think prisoners and stuff like that as they didn't want them stumbling upon them during the retreat and finding out that evidence already But like I think the the camps and everything they weren't put out in places where you know the common soldiers that were along the Atlantic wall

or in occupied France or even in like northern Germany or Denmark or any of those countries. Like you had tons of soldiers up there that probably didn't hear from their families for a long time for letters. And even if their families found out about it and wrote them, they're like, did you guys know about these camps where they're just killing a bunch of like German Jews and like all these people? And you'd be like, what the fuck you're hearing this from, man? Like get your fucking gun up. We're getting ready to get invaded. That could be part of it. The only thing that lends me to sort of believe the other way would be...

I'm trying to be optimistic. Yeah, yeah. And I realize that this seems like stupid just trying to... Because we've discussed so much evil shit, man, that if it's just a whole country of evil fucking people, then, like, that's even worse. Well, my whole thought process is if you're going through and you're taking over these cities

and you're taking over these villages, there had to have been, knowledge sent to the front line saying, hey, don't kill anybody in this Jewish village. Don't kill anybody in this Jewish neighborhood. We got other plans for them. Like, leave those people because those people are going to be taken back. It wasn't just German Jews that were. That's true. A lot of it, I think, was also the SS was in charge of that. So I think if they knew, and of course, man, remember where they had to, we're kind of like straying into like the Holocaust now. And I think we need to back up on that just a bit because I think we need to, yeah, we need to do that whole thing.

means its entire thing. But they had people that were registered and they did a lot of research on who these people were before they started rounding them up. So I think they knew the areas they had to send them in. I do think that there was, like I'm saying, a good portion of people that did know about this. What I'm saying is like on the whole, I think it was probably something that was kept secret like a lot of other things that the Nazis kept secret from like the populace.

Because at some point too, man, if you're if you're announcing that you're getting, getting rid of, you know, you're trying to kill five minutes. That's just how many of they killed. They would have continued to do it for as long as they possibly could have. But if you, if you start the, the whole point of this is you're trying to paint, you know, yourselves as the good guys. When you start having stuff get out to the populace that you're rounding up people literally in these camps, your countrymen, people that lived in your country that could have been your neighbors and you're just exterminating them, you, that could be grounds for some type of like internal revolution, even if it's small. Let's say you give

percentage of the populist reason to turn against you, you're then fighting like a three front war. You're fighting against the allies. You're fighting it within your own country and the Russians on the other side. It's evil as fuck, but I think they tried to keep it. We, the fact that we didn't know about it until after the war means that if there was more knowledge about it from regular soldiers, that knowledge would have been gathered by the allies. Anybody that was captured. Yeah. That's, that's the only reason I think that. And there, there could have been rumblings about it, but they're not going to, you know, tell soldiers, hey, be on the lookouts for these places or anything. No.

Can you imagine being, fuck, one of the, there's a episode of Band of Brothers, and I know it doesn't do it any type of reality or justice or anything, but just the visuals of everything when these soldiers come across this camp and have no idea what it is, is just insane. Yeah, I mean, you don't. I like to imagine, and the information really isn't available. I mean, if you dig deep and everything on it, I was going back to kind of find out if there was any information on what numbers they had for Mossad capturing, like Nazi war criminals. Of course, that shit's not going to be online. All of it goes down to, like, high-ranking officials,

maybe Ikeman, did Mangalai get captured? Did he get drowned or all that kind of stuff? But I can say without a doubt that a lot of people disappeared. a lot of ex-Nazis war criminals were disappeared, especially in those early years when there wasn't a lot of rules. Disappeared isn't killed. Oh, yeah. Not got away.

Not disappeared in the good way. No. No. Got disappeared. Well, and made unalive. We talked a lot about some of the high-ranking members, but you also have to remember that there were so, so many people that were involved in this. that worked in those camps. They weren't all high-ranking

members. You had guards in the camp. They had reputations and, like you said, commandants and doctors in the camps and everything. There were just so many fucking people that were responsible for these fucking atrocities and these war crimes. Not even in relation to the Holocaust, too. There was a guy that

he was one of the guys that I don't think you hit on. I was waiting to see if you were going to hit on him, but he's not like a huge major player. He's talking about, I don't remember his name. He was a, he led a battalion that killed a bunch of I think we're talking about the same guy

so there was this town it's in Argentina it's called Baroloch Barloch if you look at that's the one I was talking about earlier where if you look at a picture of it it's it looks like a fucking Bavarian village but this guy he was an SS captain Eric

he actually had killed 335 Italian civilians like during one massacre and it was in retaliation for I think 33 of his like SS soldiers like getting killed in in Italy or something like that like from like an Italian probably resistance group or some shit like that and so yeah so fucking he ordered 333 civilians or 335 Italian civilians massacred at a point when that Italy was supposed to be their ally and he's fucking killing civilians and then another guy named Reinhardt cops he was an SS officer

and he actually helped kind of manage and work some of those rat lines and help some Nazis escape. So they hit up in that barrel of chair and I think they ended up, I can't remember if they got caught or not. I hope they fucking did. Yeah. And even if they didn't get caught officially, hopefully they were caught off the books. All right. You got anything happy to end this with? Yeah, I was going to go the opposite direction of happy.

No, go right ahead, please. I just feel like it's tough to talk about all this and not kind of blow the whistle on our own because I don't think that the U.S. was necessarily as worried about rounding these people up as they should have been. We were kind of off onto the Cold War. What did we do? What was one of our earliest podcasts?

What's one of the first thing that we were interested in right after or even during the war. It was snatching up any of these fucking guys that had any semblance of fucking value that we either wanted to use for ourselves or wanted to fucking keep from the Soviets. And do you remember that Netflix documentary? It was called the...

It's either the enemy next door. The something next door. I can't remember what it was called. It's about this guy in Detroit. and he worked for, I can't remember what car vehicle plant it was in Detroit or anything like that. He said, fuck, it's Detroit or it's somewhere in Ohio. I can't remember. I'm butchering this, but he actually got identified as a either Nazi officer within a concentration camp.

I'm trying to remember what his name was. It might have been the butcher of something. and he ends up getting brought up to, I think he goes to trial, they're able to find enough evidence to take him to trial, and he turns out it's not him. But he wore as a guard in the same camp, and he was identified by multiple eyewitnesses and everything like that that were in the camp.

And that guy was fucking living in the United States just working a fucking all-American job. So here's the thing. I know we kind of explore more of the ugly aspects. We do hit some good aspects and everything like that. Good news is all these people are dead. Everybody that we talked about is dead.

Yes. It's a good fucking feeling. Whether it was natural causes or whether it was human caused, they're dead. What I'm saying is like, first of all, did that guy just sneak into the country? Did he come over as part of paperclip, found that he wasn't useful

or that he didn't do enough bad? shit for us to fucking get rid of him and then was he just set free and just released down and be like I guess make a life for yourself you gave us a little bit of information thanks yeah but it yeah maybe that's a good note to end it on

is um at this point father time is taking its toll uh I don't know how many this is gonna sound weird it's not even gonna sound weird um Charlottesville

take your torches all that kind of stuff do you ever think that those people aren't just like supporters of that ideology because they carry the swastika flags and all that kind of stuff they had the

Jews will not replace the change yeah they had the Nazi flags and everything like that what I'm wondering is because anyway you slice it we did have a population of no Nazis come into this country do you think a lot of that is not a lot of it but do you think some people in there are generational.

110% I have no doubt that we still see the ramifications. It's created more people under that type of belief system. That fucking makes me sad.

It does. And it's sad that their ideologies lived on and still continue. It's nice that we don't tolerate it. I mean, it's fantastic

we don't tolerate it but it just the fact that it's still yeah. Active. But like I say, positive note, I would highly doubt that there's a lot

of people left that were alive on the German front of World War II as far as like the Nazis. So they all met their maker. Hopefully, if there is an afterlife, they're all just licking towed butt holes and hanging out in a really bad place. So, I mean, there's probably a few that are hanging on, and I hope that they meet their maker soon. But if there is a god in an afterlife, hopefully they've been able to, or yeah, they've been

able to meet him and explain their side of it and then just got the thumbs down because there's just there's no way of wrapping this up in a good way but it's almost I like to imagine a trap door yep and they come before him and he's just like and you are

and they start naming themselves he's like who are you really and then they name the names he's like that's what I thought explain yourself and then before they even get the word out he just pulls the trap door just sends them right to the fucking fiery depths of hell yeah that's got to be the best way

to look at it is. These people are dead. Demons with fucking 15 inch decks. Just horny all the time. Yeah, for that Nazi butt post. There's no lube. Uh-uh. All right. Have fun with that visual. Yeah.

Whenever you're listening to this. Yeah, we'll leave that off for you. All right. Any of closing thoughts? Nope. I think we're good. All right, guys. Thanks for listening again. Peace. All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining us for another episode. If you like what you heard, hit that

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