Historically High - OJ Simpson: Part 2 The Trial

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

The Trial of the Century is here, well our podcast on it anyway, and I may be bias, but this is almost as entertaining as the trial itself. With a mountain of testimonial, physical, and DNA evidence against OJ, how was he found not guilty. Well we're gonna tell how this one got all kinds of fucked up and what The Juice has been up to since.Support the show Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

prosecution brings up about it and the fact that it used to be in Big Mac meat and that's where they said that they found it because Ogen, Cato said that they went to McDonald's beforehand, right? And so they said that the traces of E.D.A. that they found on that blood spatter on the back of the gate. The fact that that blood had the EDTA in it, they said that it was from the Big Mac that he'd eaten that night.

there that night. The prosecution said that. Yeah. They said that was their answer for why it had the preservative in it. Which, I... All right. All right, ladies and gentlemen. All Rise for Part 2 of the OJ podcast.

The Trial of the Century. So we left off with him turning himself in, right? No, no, not turning... Yeah, he actually... Kind of. In a way. He was forced to turn himself in after the Bronco chase. You know, we don't give OJ a lot of credit this whole entire podcast, so we'll give him credit for that.

He finally turned himself in. With assistance. Yeah. With gentle assistance. With guns, police, plenty of assistance. So this whole trial now, the 11 months that the trial lasted, because it was like 267 days of actual trial. Yeah.

And then there was some time frame for when they started it for picking out. doing the jury selection, everything like that, right? Well, the official jury got sworn in on November 9th, 1994. The trial didn't get started until January 24th, so there was still some going back. Oh, so the jury was sworn in almost. Well, shit, that would have been more than two months. Yeah. Well, yeah, because the jury sworn in on November 9th, 94, January 2nd, or sorry, January 24th, 95 is when the trial starts.

The whole thing, the fact that it took him that long, because you couldn't sequester the jury through Thanksgiving and Christmas, right? Yeah. If you're sequestered, you're sequestered, I believe. And they would sequester them after they were sworn in, even though they didn't see any evidence yet? Well, yeah, I mean, they probably had a good indication being trial lawyers or, you know, criminal defense lawyers, whatnot,

because both sides are completely aware of what evidence is admissible and what they have for the most part. There's a lot of it, but there's some surprise. but there's some backhanded things that we'll go through that the defense pulled that shouldn't have ever been. Allowed. Yeah, absolutely. And Edo let them get away with a lot of stuff.

And one of the, I guess we'll get into that a little bit, but the jury selection is always the biggest process, which if you're on the defense, you want to make sure that you get a good representation because you want people that, you know, that, you're, you know, you're Sort of mirror what your clients. Correct. You don't want necessarily a wide representation, though. You don't want a whole bunch of, I mean, I guess you do for certain cases. But with this one, they had a very specific kind of juror that they were looking for.

Did you see the list of questions that they asked them? Uh-uh. Just the most amazing questions. and a lot of it they didn't do a great job because they still ended up dismissing 10 jurors during the trial. Yeah. Let's see what we got. Well, the other thing too is, so it was there had to be a decision made if they were going to do the trial in what county was it? So the choices were either downtown L.A.

Yeah. Or it was Santa Monica. Which is closer to where Brentwood is. And that's, yeah. And where they should have done it, because if the prosecution wants to get the right kind of jurors and you want to get jurors in that area, Santa Monica would have been a slam dunk for him because it's a predominantly white area. And granted, they don't all look like OJ. I mean, there's not a lot of black folks that are in that area.

But if that's where the crime happened, you don't want to take a chance on the defense. garnering the sympathy that they did end up getting. No, and then who was the DA at the time? It was the dad of... Gilgarsetti. Okay, Gilgarsetti's dad. That's right. So Gilgarsetti, the DA at the time,

makes the decision to hold it in downtown L.A. where the jury selection is going to be much more diverse, much more leading African-American, because that essentially is who is more of the populace there in the downtown L.A. area. The reason that he wants to end up doing this from kind of what I could gather is, they feel like they have such a tight case

with all of the evidence and everything like that. They want to make it seem like they're not trying to railroad OJ because they feel like the evidence and the case is already going to be so overwhelmingly against him that they want to... They're trying to also repair that reputation for the LAPD for the city of Los Angeles with the African American community because again it's coming off of

not necessarily on the exact heels of Rodney King but you still have that high racial tension in Los Angeles. Well, and it goes back even further than Rodney King. 1982, there's a guy named James Mincy that gets pulled over and gets pulled out of his car. I believe they were testing him for a DUI and ends up getting in a scuffle with the police. The police put him in a chokehold and they kill him. Well, the police officer gets acquitted.

and I think it was the captain that came on TV. He said that, I got to find the exact words, because the exact wording that they used was, it would have pissed pretty much any black person off. It was... No, no, no. In response to James Enzi Jr.'s death and other deaths surrounding the use of Chalken,

holds. The then LAPD police chief Darrowgate said we may be finding that in some blacks when a chokehold is applied the veins and arteries do not open as fast as they do in normal people. Jesus. So that's the guy. That's

the police chief of the LAPD trying to justify that a chokehold on a black person is somehow worse. It was their fault. It was somehow their fault. Their genetic. Jesus Christ. So then 91 that's the Latasha Harlins

She's a store Is she a store clerk? No, she Oh, that's the one She went in She was having I don't even if they said It was an argument

With the clerk who I believe was Was she Vietnamese or? It was, I believe it was a male They were on camera talking The last name was soon And you could see that there was an argument She turns around to leave the store Store clerk shoots her in the back of the head

And kills her soon ends up getting acquitted of the murder, which, again, you see another young black person get gunned down, and the person that did it was acquitted. There was no physical struggle, there was no fight, there was no nothing like that. It was a rash decision that this poor girl gets shot in the back of the head and killed. So then you have over 2,000 complaints of excessive force in the past four years.

They actually investigate 2% of those claims. Yeah, it's... 2,000 complaints of excessive force in four years. I mean, that's, I can't even do the math, but that's what, like six of them a day, basically? Well, no, not that many. If it's over the past four years, that would be like less than one a day, but still, very close. Even one a day that you're getting excessive force, yeah, that's still way too many.

And out of that, it was only 200 officers had four or more charges against them. So only 200 officers, I say that, but if there's 200 officers that have four or more, that's 800 different cases just tied up in those 200 officers. And few of any ever saw any sort of trouble that they got into or anything like that. It's just they were getting them. Obviously, they weren't investigating them, but nothing was happening. There was no oversight over the police to say, hey, you guys are racially discriminating against these people. and they just went along with their daily lives. So then 91 is when Rodney King happened.

So it was more than four officers. So they pull Rodney over for I think it was either suspected drunk driving or some type of traffic citation. It was a suspected DUI, I believe. So they get him pulled over and I don't know the amount of time I've seen a ton of highlights so it's hard to tell. not how that's a horrible turn for it I've seen the clips sorry

clips of it where it's just someone is recording literally with an arm you know an on the shoulder type video they had to pull up a VCR type yes and think of that like think of the odds of this happening it's excellent did because it brought all this to light but

this person had to have one of those home recorders have a tape and be able to start filming this and be in a position to do it yeah so I want to say when I see it it's like there's like there's like seven or eight officers around him. I don't know four of them are just standing while the other four just like ducking in at certain times.

But it looks like for minutes at a time, these guys are literally just beating the shit at a Rodney King on the ground. He at no point is trying to put up any fight. He's like in the, what do you call that? Prone position. Not prone. What's it called when you're like all tucked up? Feetal. Yeah.

He's just kind of like crawled up in the fetal position trying to protect his head. and they're coming in from four different directions just taking turns just either kicking him or beating him with batons. Billy clubs just smashing the shit out of him. And obviously, I don't think that this was out of the ordinary, I would venture to say. This is probably something that was maybe...

Well, what are the odds? The one time that it happens, that someone in that area just happens to have a fucking video because it's not like having a cell phone. It's not where everyone had one. These were the big ones. if you are probably under the age of like 30 go ask your parents what they used to film home movies on

or even maybe your grandparents too it used to be almost it looks like what a TV show would use to film an episode now it had to kind of it was smaller to sat on your shoulder and you looked through a little viewer and what they were probably like 12 15 pounds yes and it had to hold a full size VHS to record on

so this is the first time that it's been caught on camera like this. These, the officers, I think, there were four main officers. There were four that were charged. Yep. Which all four of them were acquitted on a state level. Two of them, I believe, went on to face federal charges

and ended up being found guilty federally. But at a state level, after you see... Well, it was like their defense was that they thought that if they let at any point, that they let him recover, that he could go for any of their weapons at any point, and those officers feared for their life. and allegedly he had superhuman strength because they believe that he was on PCP a lot of excuses

over a situation where all you had to do was just be honest just say what happened just say you overreacted yeah so all of these along with you know probably the ongoing you know definitely the ongoing mistreatment of the you know the black community in l.A. eventually leads to 92 when the LA riots occur lasted and it was predominantly just contained within like Watts and like the predominantly black communities right? It didn't really spread that much.

Downtown LA kind of in those areas where it happened. Watts had their own riots in the 60s from a very similar chokehold case that had happened where I don't remember the guy's name. He gets pulled over and they pull him out and a female out one of the police officers allegedly had kicked a pregnant woman

in the stomach that he was with and put him in a chokehold and beat the hell out of him and everybody that saw it that was in the community watched it happen and that was what kind of sprung off the Watts riots. The LA riots were seeing the video footage of

it and looking at it I can't say we're both two white guys we've never seen just just the constant persecution of anybody that looks like us on TV, anybody that's treated unfairly. MLK had a quote back when he was mixing it up.

I don't know the best way to put it back when he was... Part of the movement? Yeah, during the movement where he said that a riot is the language of the unheard, which I can't say, you know, I don't feel like if I was in that position and I was seeing that happen, I don't know how I would react, but I would assume that eventually if I was fed up and I had had enough,

it probably would lead to something similar. Yeah, that's the thing is it's not, I can't understand, but I can, you know, I can understand that feeling, but I can definitely see, like, why it occurred. It just, you know, shit kept happening and it kept getting worse and worse and worse. Well, and the people that you're told of the people

that are supposed to be out there protecting you were almost, it feels like the ones that are targeting you. Yeah. So it ended up blasting for six days. 63 people died. There were over 1,200 arrests. Oh, sorry. Over 12,000 arrested.

And around like 2,400 people injured. Yeah, like you were saying, watching the footage and just kind of seeing like clips where like news choppers are following like groups of rioters and they get in front of a truck and they pull the truck driver out and just beat the shit. Don't steal the truck or anything. They just pull them out. And it's just a guy driving through the neighborhood going to work or trying to, you know, deliver something. And he gets pulled out and beat and then they just leave him there, like, bleeding in the street.

You can feel the anger just watching the clips. So keep in mind that this is happening just, you know, within very recent memory in L.A. Basically two years. Yeah. They end up deciding that in order to, if they're going to, if they're going to, prosecute OJ and they're going to do it to where they, the black community and everyone wants to feel like he's getting a fair shake because I do think that if they would have done it in, is it Santa Monica? Santa Monica would have been the district that they would have done it.

So if they did do it in Santa Monica, that would have been following the rule of the, just that rule of the law that says this is where it happened, this is where it should be tried. They had the option of doing it in downtown LA and they chose to do it there to make sure that there was no reason that when he was found guilty there was any reason to doubt that it was because of the predominantly white jury. Basically to knock out the appeal process of saying that he didn't get a fair shake

through the jury, which with as long as it took them to pick the jury and how many people that they went through, I want to say that they had a gallery of like, I think it was like a thousand people. It was a ton of people. And the big thing was, is you started to whittle

down the type of jury you were getting because you had to tell them that this could be something that could go six months to a year. So what they found that, you know, who has six months to a year available to them? And what they found that it was predominantly like people lower in the socioeconomic class that didn't have like full-time work or anything like that, that would feel, and then they feel like that translated over to those people probably feeling more oppressed by the city and more wronged. Yeah,

I could definitely see it. So that was, and because those people had more free time, people were single, they didn't have kids or anything like that. They caught more of that, that demographic. So they ended up, what did the jury selection end up being?

The jury ended up being 12 people. There were eight black folks, there were six women, there were two men, two Hispanic folks, I believe it was one male, one female, one mixed race person,

mixed race isn't a great term to use, but I believe it was Caucasian and Native American, and then there was one white woman. Okay. So during the trial, 10 jers ended up being dismissed, and then there were 15

alternates that were available, so 10 of those alternates got brought in. And they had to sit through the entire trial too. So imagine being the five people that didn't end up getting brought in that had to sit through the entire thing and couldn't render if they thought it was guilty or innocent. Because, oh, I didn't even think about that aspect. The entire time, those alternates aren't in the courtroom as the jury. Those alternates are in another room watching what's going on in the trial to make sure that, because they can't come in partway through the trial and not have all that other evidence to debate. They have to be watching exactly what the jury is watching

and basically building the case in their head as to how they're going to vote in case they have to swap seats with somebody. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. When you bring an alternate in, as a jury itself, you're not allowed to deliberate the case between each other. You're not allowed to talk about anything related to the case, so you're just basically building your own opinion of what happened. And like you say, if you do get tossed into the fire,

you have to have an opinion about everything else before you were brought in or else you don't have the full scope of what's going on. Correct. Can you imagine if you haven't been paying attention and you get just something wrong about the case, then anybody that you're trying to convince in there to see your point of view or something that you had a point of view on, they're not going to listen to you because they don't have all, they don't feel like you have all the details of it. Well, and it would bring up another appeal potentially for the defense to say, our guy didn't get a fair shake because the jury didn't get to hear.

everything that we had put forward. Okay, so we know the dates, we got the jury, so let's go through the legal teams. So we have, we can kind of determine on who's on the prosecution and who's on the defense, so that way when we're naming names during the discussion, we know who's who.

The judge leading off, Lance Edo, Judgeito, a very colorful figure in the case, he probably did more I personally believe. to hurt the prosecution than a judge should have done. He, I don't know what his thought process was.

I didn't know if he didn't want to look bias against Oge. So he pushed it kind of the other way, but he, he didn't allow a lot of different things that we'll get into that it just seemed like he was pushing more for OJ to have benefits than Marsha Clark that lead prosecutor. Your prosecution team was Marshall Clark, who we just said lead prosecutor.

Chris Darden was an assistant. Darden used to work underneath Johnny Cochran for one of his non-profits. He kind of saw Johnny Cochran a little bit as like a mentor in his life. I think they said that pretty much every young black lawyer during that time almost kind of idolized or looked up to Johnny Cochran. Well, yeah. He was, like we talk about representation a lot during this. He was representation.

They saw that. He was smart, successful. The community loved him. I mean, there was a left to look up to him. They had a guy named Will Hodgman. So it was Clark. I feel like it was Clark and Hodgman that were the two that were initially just set for the prosecution. And then they brought Darden on.

And then they brought Darden in. Which Darden, another black man could potentially, the look, the view could look a lot different with Darden up there questioning. Yeah. And I think about. that kind of worked against them because they didn't have Darden on the team when they were doing the jury selection process with the legal teams.

Yeah. And what happened was because the jurors that were selected during that process were then, you know, overseeing the trial or listening for the trial. When they saw Chris Darden in there come in, they were like, wait, so why are they just adding this guy now? And a lot of the jurors actually kind of pieced it together

that they might have thought that the prosecution looked too white. That he was almost a token that he was almost, yeah, because he wasn't originally planned. So that's something that, that's even been said by a couple of the jurors that they've interviewed that said, like, they were like, we didn't know who he was. And then after hearing him speak a few times, they were like, oh, maybe he's just here because he's black, because he made a lot of mistakes. Yeah, maybe the biggest.

And I don't even know, again, we'll get to it. I don't know if it was his, his comments. confidence that did it to him, but with the way that he gets baited into the glove, oh God, it was great. The defense team originally was led by Robert Shapiro. Johnny Cochran ended up taking over as the lead. Robert Kardashian, who we talked about before. So just for clarification to see if I'm right on this,

Robert Kardashian was like his day-to-day lawyer as OJ, because he was kind of friends with him. And so he was like... They were good friends. Okay, so Robert Kardashian was the type of lawyer that was like, hey Robert, I need a trust set up for my kids or I need like a will drawn up. He's that kind of lawyer. He's not a defense lawyer.

More of like an estate lawyer than a... Yeah, so we'd like a state law and like that kind of thing. So Robert Kardashian can't really... During the early part of it, he had more of a hand. And then they brought in Shapiro, who then kind of took the reins. More of a criminal defense.

offense lawyer. And then at that point, once they knew they were going to trial, they built this team. So Robert Kardashian really, I, man, even watching the footage of the trial, I don't see him very much along, like, OJ's bench, because I don't think he was really in there that much once the trial started, because he really didn't have a spot. And he could have been more of, like, a face that O.J. was familiar with and knows that he, he knows, he's kind of the O.J. calmer. Well, and he's his friend that's also able to go ahead and sit there because he could claim him as his lawyer. Yeah. So that's something to calm him down.

So we get Robert Shapiro. He brings in Fuckley Bailey. Yeah, F. Lee Bailey. And I was very sad. I looked into that. Unfortunately, the F doesn't stand for fuck. It should. We'll find a lawyer eventually where the F does stand for fuck.

But this guy deserves it. He was just to this, well, I don't know if he's still. live. I think he might be. He was an asshole. Is he one of the two people that still hasn't admitted from the defense that OJ was guilty? Yeah, him and OJ. Those are the only two. Those are the only two? Everybody else pretty much has turned their way.

And unfortunately, Shapiro after this goes on to a career of creating legal Zoom. So he became exponentially more wealthy after that. So, Ethley Bailey, he was pretty old at the time of the case, but he was famous for

the Sirhan, Sirhan. the trial Robert Kennedy assassination yeah was that what it was yep I believe so it could have been because that was early 80s

he they basically his nickname was the southern gentleman he was from the south and had a drawl spoke a lot like Matt Locke used to he was known to be like an extremely effective and aggressive

and aggressive cross-examiner like he could tear apart somebody's argument really quick he was kind of bullish like that, but that's what he was known for, was tearing apart people's arguments

in the cross-examination portion. So then you have Gerald Vellman. Just that, I think he was, the dream team that they assembled, they called him the dream team, obviously after the Olympics, it was sort of like the tugging cheek joke. Velman had tried a lot of cases,

he'd seen a lot of different things, go on in the courtroom. He was somebody that had a really good, strong working knowledge of the defense. Sean Hawley, kind of along those lines. Carl E. Douglas and Barry Sheck were two others that were in there. Sheck did some questioning as well. I think he was the, he was kind of like the really animated little white dude that

he was the guy that would always try to like talk fast and try to confuse people with like facts that weren't relevant. So he mixed in like irrelevant points to relevant points. He was very good about convoluting the, like, testimony. Just kind of watching the footage of him, he just talks very fast, and the way he enunciates and talks, like, is a very, it's very convincing. A lot of these guys, too,

supposedly had done this work for OJ. Pro Bono is what they said for free. I highly doubt that it ended up after he got off that they probably took their pound of flash from Oge. They might have done that, but the publicity that these guys had alone, you know, you can write a book now. I mean, I don't know how popular writing,

but you can write a book now about this. And a lot of these guys, I think the ones that probably stand out the most of people who kind of, who have knowledge of the Simpson trial, Johnny Cochran is the one that I think did a lot of the talking, probably the most. Then I think he was very Sheck, and then probably Rob Shapiro,

and one of the other guys, a couple of them didn't do a whole ton of talking. They had their specialties with certain. Some DNA experts. Yep, exactly. Some were more, you know, some could talk to, like, scientists a little bit better. You know, they brought in DNA experts and all kinds of stuff.

Which, at this point in time with this trial, DNA is, this is kind of like the first decade generation-ish that you can say where DNA is really, really starting to fit into the criminal process and the court court process. So also keep in mind that on the defense side, these are just the people that are in the courtroom. This is, this doesn't include the people that are working for their firms. So they basically have private investigators out there gathering information on anybody that can be called by the prosecution as witnesses against the defense. They're trying to basically

tear this case apart and more of a like they want to have ammo against all of the character witnesses that can come up to discredit them I think or to discredit the evidence well the other thing too with having all these lawyers they all have assistance they all have people like you say they can go out and do the legwork and find these things but they can also go dig things up on the prosecution which we see come out

a lot. I don't have great feelings about the way that Marcia Clark prosecuted this case but the things that happened to her in the media just as a white woman prosecutor she she'd won 19 other cases before this

and most notably before that it was a stocking case of it was a lady who was an actor I can't believe I'm spacing her name right now but she basically had a super fan that ended up showing up to her door one day because he felt that she had done a sex scene and it was like a

a message strictly to him that she was cheating on him so he ends up finding her house one day knocks on the door she opens the door shoots her in the chest and marshal clark basically successfully got him prosecuted for the first time in california that set up a lot of the different kind of like stalker laws and things like that. Oh, gotcha. Okay. So she had already tried cases that were very big in the media. Nothing to this extent, but she was a fairly well-decorated prosecutor already. Correct. The media would dig things up. There were topless photos that popped up in the press and in, I want to say it was the National Enquirer during the case that they had purchased from his, or from her,

ex-husband's mother and they were photos that were taken on vacation or something yeah it was on their honeymoon and they were at a topless beach so it wasn't like there were porno pictures it wasn't anything like that it was just one way that they could try to discredit a female prosecutor they would rip on her about her hairstyle about if she was tougher on a witness yeah well and the thing too is um one of the i think the reasons that she was selected is part of her cases she had had a lot of success with female African-American jurors. They tended to be more receptive to her.

And I don't know if it was just coincidence that it happened in those trials, but when eventually people were asking for their impressions, because, you know, news people doing interviews, they're getting information on every single one of these players in this case. So they would ask the public what their opinion would be on people. And it came back on Marsha Clark that a lot of people used the term bitch or like uppity or something. And so she also didn't have as much of a rapport with certain people she thought she did. So I think that also maybe might have hurt her arguments a little bit. She might have been kind of, I don't know, resting on your laurels is the right term in this situation.

But kind of banking on her having an automatic connection with six black women who happened to be on this jury. that she was going to have that as an advantage. The whole time this is going on to start the case, and I think probably through most of it, she is going through her second divorce, and it's not a pretty deal for her. It's a very long, drawn-out, kind of fearsome divorce. So not only is she trying probably the biggest case for her life,

she's also going through stuff in her personal life that would just be an absolute drink. She was a single mother at that point. Her and Darden had both grown up in L.A. County, so they were both kind of local to the situation. So I would imagine they probably had a decent pulse on how the public felt. Yeah. Well, and one thing, too, that kind of gives you an indication of how much the defense was, you know, excited by this jury was that I think when they were actually walking out for the first, the first day of the hearing OJ saw the jury and looked back at one of his lawyers

and said if this jury convicts me maybe I did it maybe I did do it because he saw that you know they were predominantly non-white yeah so he was such a dick through this whole thing at the arraignment when they asked

him to plead guilty or innocent to it he stands up and he says I'm 100% not guilty of this crime like just his confidence is something you can almost appreciate. Just the complete lack of self-awareness of knowing how the case looks

and what evidence they have to come out and say that. All right, so we're going to get into the trial. I'm going to have a quick bathroom break. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the, let's see, I had a point that I wanted to make

before we start actually getting into the trial and everything. So I feel like, Looking at this, the whole point of the defense team, they weren't trying to prove OJ's innocence. They were basically prosecuting the LAPD to make them look guiltier, to make it look like it was more likely that this was a setup and that evidence had been planted more so than making OJ look innocent. Well, and in a criminal trial too, it's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So you don't necessarily have to prove that he's innocent. You just have to prove that there's reasonable doubt that he didn't do it, which, again, it's not a very high threshold,

especially with the kind of stuff that they threw out, because if you can put a little seed of doubt in any of these people's minds, it doesn't have to be all of them. It just has to be one or two to disrupt, because even if you don't have the unanimous decision, you're still going to get a hung jury. Well, the thing that we're going to end up finding out is that it's, It's not just like, you could go after a piece of evidence

and try to prove that that evidence doesn't come into play or doesn't prove something. But what happens is if you can question and make people not believe the person, like in this situation it's going to be Furman, all of the evidence that it surrounds him, then comes into question. So it was like they determined that let's not try to go so much like, toward the evidence, let's go toward the people that have something to do with the evidence.

Let's bring doubt about them and then it doubts all of the actual, like, very concrete evidence. And when we get to Dennis Fung, one of the collection agents, all they have to do is show that even one piece of evidence could have been something that was tampered with. And every other single piece of evidence, there's a little bit of doubt. Could something have gone wrong with this? and did this get changed? That's when Barry Sheck went in on him. And he's like, what does this look like, Mr. Fung?

How does answer to that, Mr. Fung? They kind of figured out at this point, which I don't know. I have a tough time with this because they ended up deciding not to go for the death penalty, which a death penalty case is a lot harder to prove to get the death penalty. Just because the... the consequences seem so much more severe than life in prison. Something like that. Yeah.

And it's, there's just a lot of people that don't believe in the death penalty. I guess that could come into play as more of like, you could be religious and be like life in prison, but if like you're religious and you have something against the death penalty, that would come into play. I can say that. Yeah.

And it's one of the things where they have to ask you different questions when they're picking a jury. And a jury that they found a jury that gets chosen in a death penalty case is, more likely to vote guilty, but then maybe say this wasn't deserving of the death penalty. So they're more likely to prosecute, whereas if you take that off the table, you're going to get jurors that may be less likely to prosecute than a death penalty jury would be. And I don't know how it would have shaken things up, because nowadays, if you're going to have a death penalty case, you have to have death penalty accredited lawyers, which you have to have lawyers that have argued

or been like assistant counsel on one or more other death penalty cases. Like an apprenticeship almost like a weird thing like that. Yeah. Yeah you'd sat under somebody that had done it. That's weird to think about that. You learn the process. Okay so this is the first time. I don't know if it's the first time but it's definitely the first time

that something as high profile as this has been in court and on camera. Well on it was something they had like the the really charismatic fella that was a serial killer. Dahmer? No. Domer's was a pretty big case too,

but the one that ran around the northwest. Oh, not Domer. Jesus. Bundy. Yes, the guy that chopped off all that, yes. Yeah. The Bundy case had played out in court in front of the TV cameras, so they had seen kind of Ted Bundy and how that had happened.

So America had been introduced, but to this size, the amount of media outlets that picked this up. And this really was like the first event to launch the 24-hour news cycle. So CNN covered the case gavel to gavel from the start to the finish. And then all the other news stations, because they had previously scheduled contracts for programming, they couldn't just show this all day like CNN could. So what they would do is every single news cycle after regularly scheduled program,

you know, 5 o'clock news, 6 o'clock news, 9 o'clock news, that would all come. all the highlights for the day from the OJ trial. So it was like CNN was on from 8 to 5 or when the case was actually going on live and then everyone else was like SportsCenter and covering the highlights. To see a trial on SportsCenter would have been just crazy.

I know, or the highlights of it on it. I'm sure that at some point there was something regarding the OJ case on SportsCenter. They did a top 10? Probably. Top 10 of the day or the week. one of the things I'm trying to think of the timing on this so Johnny Cochran they find out this information OJ's legal team of the defense finds out that Mark Furman is going to be a key witness

for the prosecution now Furman was one of the detectives to respond to the what was the name of the street where her apartment was he responded to Bundy that's right I believe there were four other officers that had responded to Bundy first before he had shown that. And it's important the order of this because this comes into play

during the trial in his questioning. He responds to the call at Bundy goes, sees the crime scene, Nicole and Ron dead. They start tagging evidence and everything at that crime scene. And in that crime scene, there is a glove found.

It's the right glove or left of... In one of the gloves. I'm not going to get caught on the bottom of those. I believe it was left and then the knit cap and then they had found the glasses in the envelope there. Okay, yep, that Ron had brought over to drop off. So he, I believe, is one of the officers that then go to Rockingham,

and was it because they thought something may have happened to O.J. Or because he was like next of kin to notify him of that? The official statement that they made was they didn't want OJ to find out through the media that his ex-wife had died, so they wanted to go alerted. Gotcha. So they arrived to the house. No one's responding to the gate or anything like that. They go around the side, or one of the cops sees around the side of the house that there is the white Bronco park there.

Kind of pulled up, like, not parked, parked, but like pull over to the side. And he notices on the driver's side door, there is some blood by the handle. That was Furman. That was Furman. That was Furman. It said that he saw the blood on the side. So at that point, they make a determination, based. on what they're seeing that there's either something in the house that OJ is either in danger or

that they suspect something having to do with the murder. So at that point, Furman jumps the fence. I don't know the exact setup of Rockingham, but he has to walk by Cato Caelan's guest house. And then he finds a walking path between like a fence and the house, like a really narrow walking path and as he's walking down it he notices something dark on the ground he says he initially thought it was dog shit but then he turned around and shining his flashlight back on it and he saw it was a brown leather glove and he could tell that it was wet and that it had something on it yeah i don't know if he tags it at that point but he goes and then opens the gate to allow the

other officers in at that point i believe he says that since he did see blood he thought that there was imminent danger okay which question questionable with what we're going to find out about Furman. Correct. But at the same time, too, if, you know, oh, and that was the other argument, too, why they went in there. They thought at that point, if they saw blood, they thought, again, O.J. might be in danger. Him seeing a bloody glove was like, did the same guy that went and killed Nicole coming to kill OJ. So I think that's also what they said, one of the reasons they thought that OJ might be murdered inside or hurt or something like that. It sounds better. The way that the LAPD worked,

it was kind of, they would say one thing and then do another. And I don't know if that was their means to try to say, we don't need a search warrant for this place. Because as soon as they hopped the fence, they've already entered the property without a search warrant, which is a big no-no. I know, but they do establish a warrant very quickly. As soon as they see that glove,

they establish that it is a crime scene. And the blood leading up to the front door. Correct. So they end up getting a warrant very quickly. So they're able to go ahead and use, they're able to use that evidence. They had cause to go in. It was determined and then anything acquired after the warrant. So at this point, O.J. is in Chicago?

Yep. Okay. So they call him and obviously he comes back. Without a care in the world for where his children are if they were safe after the murder. So definitely worried about them. The opening arguments for the case, tried to establish exactly what you would think

if you're trying to establish OJ is somebody capable of murdering somebody they start with all of the previous instances of domestic abuse they played a couple tapes

a couple of the 911 tapes to kind of establish that he did have an abuse of history he was somebody that would have had a motive to do this and she dances around kind of the kill to control Nicole because he had felt like he had lost control of the situation,

which sounds logical and it sounds good, but they end up abandoning the case that they could have put forth that I feel like would have won hands down just because it was such a simple, easy domestic violence homicide case they had all the evidence they had everything else they had um an advocate

that Nicole had gone to and talked to about the domestic abuse that they never called on to the stand they never asked anybody outside of the um circles to to testify

and one of the things they did too kind of going back to to kind of revisit Furman so he had at some point had also responded to either one, if not multiple domestic abuse calls. He knew the house. He knew where O.J.

lives. I'm sure they didn't have to get directions to go tell him. So keep in mind, regardless that this is L.A., but like there are so many precincts within L.A. That within this area of Rockingham or Santa Monica where it was, yeah, there would be just like designated detectives and

officers. So that's how OJ got to know like ship and you know, other, anyone else in law enforcement. So Furman had actually responded to a previous domestic disturbance and was this the one where oj was holding this one you were talking about the baseball bat and had shattered the windshield of the new car and Nicole was like over on the other side and she was like shaking she's standing on the roof and so he went and oj was still holding the bat he said Furman was walking toward him and he's like sir dropped the bat and he's like I

had to tell him again sir dropped the bat and then he said like a little bit of the little look kind of came over OJ's face where he just kind of woke up. And then he was like, oh, sorry, man, I didn't hear you. Yeah. And he just went back into like OJ mode. And so he went over to Nicole and asked if she wanted to file a report against him. She said no. And in an interview with him, he said he didn't know if he said this because he had been so jaded by seeing this kind of stuff before or anything like that.

You're going to find out he's not the greatest character. And that's one thing that went after. But he said, it's your life. and then kind of left it at that because she didn't want to file a report against him so they'd seen it he was already somebody that was familiar

with the whole situation that they had he was familiar with the domestic violence he knew probably roughly the layout of the area because he had been over there at least one other time so one thing too

that they did without the jury there um Chris Darden he had a request to make Furman's past behavior inadmissible as evidence. Under the argument that he felt that

because the evidence against Furman for past behavior he had a lot of complaints and had been on the record as having said racist comments using the inward and other racial terms toward other ethnicities. Not to mention like we talked about before, at one point

Furman had gone in front of the retirement board and asked them for his full pension, but to retire early because he felt that working in law enforcement in L.A. had made him prejudice towards black and Hispanic people, which that's not the kind of witness you want to put in this trial. Well, what ends up happening is Darden's request is based on the fact that the jury being predominantly black cannot hear the N-word. And judge the situation dispassionately and ignored that part and they he feels like associating that

word with firman is going to then have everything that firman presents his evidence and testimony is going to be completely tainted well why wouldn't it exactly i mean it's a valid argument but his his point was that the jurors could not hear that word and not take it into account or look past that word to judge the trial is fair yeah so Johnny gets up there and I think this point right here just shows you how outmatched even from the very

get-go. Oh yeah. The prosecution was against Johnny Cochran and that legal team. Johnny Cochran basically plays the people's champion and he plays this up to the point where he's like in all my years being a lawyer.

He's like, I don't think I've ever witnessed is something disgusting as what I've just heard Mr. Darden say. the fact that as African Americans, we could have heard that word for hundreds of years and not be able to handle that word and be able to look past that like we're a bunch of animals. I think it's ridiculous.

Totally reversing this thing on Darden and basically making him look like he's... Racially biased himself already. Which... All doing this, while in full... full knowledge knowing that their defense is going to be using the N-word against him. So that smooth-talking son of a bitch walked up there made Darden feel terrible about what he was saying.

Garnered probably some sympathy from Edo at that point. And all while knowing that what he was just bold, flatly lying about was going to be kind of a cornerstone of their defense. Which the guy was just a phenomenal orator. He was catchy as all hell. He was a very cunning linguist. He was like a lawyer preacher. He could just talk and the way he could just be so smooth with analogies and comparisons. They did consider Furman during an interview with Ethley Bailey.

He said they considered Furman to be the jugular of the prosecution. If they could sever him and make him and discredit him, then the entire argument, all of it, all of the hardcore evidence becomes irrelevant. it's a great strategy they I don't know if it was just the sheer volume of defense or the guys that they had but their strategy was very militant they knew exactly where they wanted to poke holes they knew exactly how they could do them

and the only thing that they really had to overcome was the possibility that people would see OJ as a domestic abuser because that's that was the only way that they were going to, excuse me, be able to really make things look like they stick on OJ's if he did present as somebody who would have committed the crime. So kind of piggybacking off that, they actually had the jury take

what they would consider a field trip to Rockingham and also to Bundy, their apartment. And of course, the crime scenes aren't there, they've been cleaned up and everything, and all the evidence has been tagged and sorted and stored. but what they wanted to see is basically they wanted to give them an idea of the crime scene and how someone

would have entered what would have happened trying to paint the picture especially of you know putting themselves in the victim's shoes and to have three basic main places where this took place at Bundy at the Bronco and at Rockingham

Marsha Clark wanted the jury to be able to go back and kind of have like a visual reference like Oh, we're talking about Bundy now. Oh, we're talking about Rockingham. And this was an all-time mistake. Oh, yeah. So what they did is at Rockingham,

so there was apparently this staircase that was just completely, it was kind of a curved staircase, spiral staircase going up. All of the walls leading up this entire spiral staircase were just pictures of OJ with friends and celebrities. White people. And it was almost all white people.

and they did other little things in the house to make it seem kind of in this theme. They took all of those pictures down, save for just a couple, and then they replaced them all and had to, like, search hard to fill this wall with pictures of OJ with other black people or black celebrities. That's the commitment you want to see out of your defense team. The other thing, too, is so the prosecution didn't know about this. Of course they didn't know about this. Yeah, why would you think that?

I know. So they get there and Marshall looks at one of the OJ's defense lawyers and looks up at the pictures and is like, you know good goddamn well that those aren't the pictures that were up there previously. You guys had changed that and he's like, what are you talking about? He's like, we wouldn't do that, but it wasn't technically illegal for them to do that. And that was the thing was they worked inside the law

about as broadly as they could. They did a lot of things that were outside the law, but something just as simple as that to flip the potentially hostile domestic abuser to a family man that's a champion for the community. This was actually one time

where one of the jurors was dismissed because they showed up to Juice's house and the juror was wearing a San Francisco 49ers jersey. You can't get more obvious than showing up to a football play. ex-niners house in a Niners jersey so that dude was thrown out very quickly and I don't know if it was O.J. feeling himself being home or what but at one point Darden sits down on one of the

benches outside the house and OJ walks over and starts yelling at him to get up off his bench like just he was still that fired up about it that he didn't even want Darden sitting on a bench outside his house. Well what ends up happening is during the cross- examination on Furman, it ends up, they end up questioning him about racial complaints in his past. And one of the questions is just a very broad question. It's, have you ever used the N-word to, in conversation in the last 10 years? And he says no. And he's like, too, and he's like, could you have forgotten that you use that word in the last 10 years? And he said no. So they were just trying to established that he was on record as saying he had not used that word in the last 10 years.

And that took over, I want to say, the way that they had reported it was that it was three days of cross-examination by Flee Bailey on Furman. And at the time, they thought, this did not go well for him. This looked very bad, just all the questions that he asked, Furman hadn't answered to. So the media had portrayed this particular exchange is a loss for the defense. Well, one thing that they wanted to try to bring up is if he did have this question of racism in his past, that opens the door for the racist cop frames OJ conspiracy. Yeah, all it is is just a little tap on the door of is this plausible that they could have done it.

Yeah. and the heart of the prosecution case was DNA so let's just go down kind of the list of evidence that they had that directly tied OJ to the murder scene yeah before we do it just a little cleanup on the other half of how the field trip

hookup happened after they had gone to Rockingham and seen this beautiful house that OJ had that was still well kept had all these photos of everybody in the community and all that. After they get done with that, they take a trip over to Nicole's apartment on Bundy

to go ahead and explain to them how that crime scene looked. Unfortunately, in that time, all of Nicole's stuff had been cleared out of the apartment. So when they walk into Nicole's house, they don't have the benefit of a doubt to see all of the kids stuff there, all the pictures of her and the kids. And the image of her is just an empty apartment

and we're a murder that are, already been cleaned up had taken place. There wasn't any sympathy, anything like that that they couldn't guard from that. No, not at all. And before that it happened, before they went on the field trip, Nicole's sister gets on the stand and her and Marcia are talking about different things that OJ had done in the relationship that she had seen like jealousy or the abuse that she had seen. And she said one night they were at dinner and it was her.

I think it was Nicole's mom, OJ. And Nicole, OJ reaches down, grabs Nicole by the pussy, looks at both of them, and says the words, this is a vagina, this is where babies come from, this is mine. Just at dinner. Just a weird random occurrence where he just like physically assaults sexually his wife at dinner, then has to reclaim to everybody that this is what a vagina is. It's so good that he paid attention in biology. You knew where babies came from.

But it was one of those things where after they had seen that and heard that, I'm sure that going over to OJ's house and seeing all those pictures and all the pictures of the family and the Norman Rockwell, it almost is like, well, is that witness credible? Yeah. Because it doesn't look like it. So the evidence that was at Nicole's, which was the crime scene, so they determined that

kind of the order of what occurred was I think what you said so OJ knocks on the door or somehow gets Nicole's attention she comes out I think he ends up subduing her and at that point Ron showed up while that was happening and I think what you said yeah OJ sneaking up behind him they think he snuck up behind him stabbed him in the face a bunch of times

it was showing the picture that man I had to like look away like yeah basically so he ends up finishing off Ron first Nicole might have been dead by this point but then he comes and he does the pretty much final slash yeah and then leaves so they are able to go ahead and find

blood droplets that are on the left hand side of the footprints that are leaving away the suspect's footprints so they've determined that he has a cut or something happened to his left hand those blood drops next to the footprints are determined to be OJ's blood.

Yep. Okay. They find in the Bronco blood from Nicole, from Ron, and from OJ. In the footprints on the floorboard. Yes. And then I believe it was not only OJ's blood, but there might have been something else that was on the side of the door or two, right?

Okay. They find the glove at Rockingham that matches the glove, that was left at Bundy, both gloves have all three of their blood. Or no, I don't know if the glove technically has the, the glove at Rockingham doesn't have OJ's blood on it, I don't think, but the one that they find that was covering his left hand. Would have had all three, because the injury to his left hand, so. It was a bare hand. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then they also find OJ's blood in his house, drops of blood leading to, I think, the bathroom. They find blood. in the bathroom drain.

His blood. Okay. The socks. Yep. They found the socks in there that had, I believe it was fibers from Ron and then all the DNA that they had found at the Bundy scene. So just little simple articles of clothing. And I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm obviously, we're not lawyers here, but I don't know how you, you can't discredit the fact that his blood is there.

You can't discredit the fact that the DNA shows because they used two different, like, it was the first time ever that they had used two different labs just to make sure that it was correct. To double check your review. Yeah, Gilgars said he came out and he said this was such a high-profile case that everything had to be beyond reproach. So we used two different labs, both of them coming back as OJ's blood.

during one of the questioning periods they tried to go ahead or with firman they were trying to paint it out to wear during his examination by effie bailey he was asking him about the glove that he found at rockingham and something about how when he found the glove he said it was still wet or anything like that but then he started to try to kind of question him on how blood was drying why it wouldn't be dried. And so Flee Bailey, after asking the question, you know, you found it technically about six hours after the murder. After the murder had occurred, five or six hours, he's like, that blood should have probably been dry when exposed to oxygen. And he's like, like, you know, as a detective, I could see that being a possibility. He's like, but there was still wet blood on it. Kind of like,

you know, that could occur if someone were to take the glove, put it in a plastic bag and seal it where there wasn't any oxygen getting to it, and then take that out and set it somewhere. That could keep the blood from drying out right, and then basically was asking Furman the question, to which Furman, you know, even if, you know, he didn't do that, but he would have to answer the question if that was possible.

And logically, correct. That's very possible. So that's very possible. So they were trying to plant these little seeds of doubt of how the DNA evidence could have been planted. One of them was they were questioning someone from the lab that run some of the blood tests. And do you, they had a sample of OJ's blood beforehand.

Do you know how they had that? They took it initially during the questioning. So when he went in and got questioned, he volunteered his blood for the, basically to run against the samples that they had. But, okay, so here's my question on that. But the blood, okay, so let me say this last part, and then that gets to the question I have.

So they had a blood sample And for some reason The blood sample had been requested by someone at the crime scene to be brought to the crime scene I don't know if they were trying to just match them up at the crime scene If they had that type of capability to where they could do a simple blood test to see if they shared similarities Like kind of like a partial blood test to be like oh these are both type A or type O or something like that And then if they match then they could run the test at a lab So basically they're opening these doors to say

say, you mean OJ's blood was at the crime scene? Which then can put a story in the jury's head of saying, well, they just brought that blood there to sprinkle a couple drops and then OJ's blood would be there. But wasn't the blood droplets found the very same night? They logged the blood droplets that someone had been wounded. So I'm trying to figure out how I didn't see that part. Well, you kind of fell for the same thing that they were trying to push.

There's no logical sense that that had happened. But you don't... Now that it's in my mind, I'm trying to think of how it could have happened. Yeah. And that distracts me from the fact that it didn't actually happen. Yep. All you have to do is say, you don't have to be right about it. You don't have to have the time frame and everything correctly.

God damn it. It's just that little piece. And to go along with that, to piggyback on top of that, the request for OJ's blood was 8 milliliters, which I think it was 8mm. I know it was 8. I don't know the size. 8 CCs or something? Maybe 8 Cs.

So, when they bring that blood sample back up it is filled up to 6.5 which also begs the question there is 1.5 missing it could have been that that's all they drew out it could have been

a number of different things but the fact that it was written up to be 8 and it was 6.5 then you have to ask yourself where that other 1.5 win how many drop you're trying to do math how many drops is that how many drop did they find it's all it is is just the little bits and pieces that you would have to say just to put these things in people's minds.

And I'm telling you, this is why I think that this was, this wasn't about proving OJ. innocent. This was all about proving that the entire process of evidence collection, crime scene investigation, everything here was mishandled and trying to plant so many doubts in the jury's mind that, you know, is this beyond a reasonable doubt? Well, as a defense attorney, you don't have to prove that your client's innocent. You don't have to believe that he's innocent. You can believe that he's guilty as a day is long, but he can't say that to you.

No. So I'm more than positive that when they saw the prosecution's case, there might have been a shred of doubt in Cochran and Shapiro and everybody's minds. And later on, after the trial, Rob Kardashian had actually come out and said, after I saw this evidence, I honestly started to believe that OJ was guilty too. So a longtime friend was even questioning it after that too. So Johnny knows as soon as he hears the evidence, he's like, holy shit, I have to make sure he doesn't go to jail. I don't have to make sure he's innocent.

I just have to make sure that I win him this case. Yeah. So what ends up happening? So tell me about Dennis Fung. Excuse me. Fung had a pretty solid outing until the cross happened

and Barry Shet gets up on cross So who is he? He's an evidence Is he like a lead CS like lead crime scene or lead evidence Yeah I don't want to use the word CSI Because it makes you think of the show

But he's a CRIC okay CSI stands for crime scene investigator That's what he is Okay He handled a lot of that stuff he had a couple of assistance that unfortunately one of them was very new and didn't quite understand the process.

But you have to put up with all of this evidence gathering where you have police officers running roughshot over Rockingham, looking to see if OJ is there and checking all this different things. So you have them there potentially contaminating evidence, potentially screwing things up. he goes through tries to clean up explain how everything was found it sounds pretty plausible he sounds like they did a good job he said that

everything all the highest measures of precaution safety non-contamination so shek gets up there and first question that he asked is did you feel that you

had done a good job not contaminating anything on the crime scene he says yes he goes did you always wear gloves when you were collecting evidence. He goes, yes. And he goes... Can I interrupt one thing?

I think it's going to lead into what you're going to say. Keep in mind that not just after the Bronco chase was their coverage on this with like news outlets. They had people with cameras. I'm not sure if...

I'm sure they had a combination of actually like reporters and camera crews and also paparazzi that were literally from the outside taping the entire crime scene. It looked like a goddamn concert outside. And so, I don't know if this was the first time, but I imagine it was probably one of the first times this was used to this degree.

There was so many pieces of evidence that the defense could use because they could gather media from news reports. So if they needed to go ahead and scour hours of television coverage that were showing the crime scene, all they had to do, they had these crime scene investigators and the cops basically under surveillance with how they were processing the crime scene. And that's where it's going to come into what he's about to go, what Sheck's about to bring up to Fung. Yeah, and like we were talking about with the,

sorry, with the just amazing amount of lawyers that they had, all these people had all these different people working underneath them. It was research teams. Yeah, if you had 100 people on a research team, they could literally watch every second and dissect every little bit. So after Shex said, up the did you always use gloves and Fung falls right into the trap of saying yes every time then Shet goes ahead and shows them a clip from I believe it was a news outlet showing uh

Dennis Fung standing in the background holding a white envelope with a bloody footprint on it without wearing gloves which immediately and this isn't a news outlet trying to catch them doing something wrong. This is literally just them showing the crime scene and this happens to be happening in the shot. Yeah, it's just in the background. So that would be literally the defense making people watches and be like, if you see watch everybody like a hawk, tell me what

everybody in this shot does. Looking for something wrong. Just the... So at that point... It's brilliant. Yeah, exactly. It calls into question then, okay, he just said that they always use gloves, but we're seeing him on on camera here not using gloves. And the

the other thing too is they couldn't even prove that it was that white envelope with the blood with the bloody footprint on it because he picks it up and it's just a white envelope. He's literally just kind of moving it, not saying it wasn't a piece of evidence, it was, but the defense

didn't prove that it was that white envelope. No. He goes, there was a white envelope, you're picking up a white envelope and he's like that wasn't that white envelope, but it's still brought into question. Well, he lied about not picking up with gloves, is he lying about not that being that envelope?

You're not trying to disprove him. You're just trying to prove him. you're just trying to prove that he lies or doesn't follow everything that he's doing. If he lies about this, what else is he lying about? They had another incident that Fung, I'm sure, was pretty pleased to testify to. There was a gate that you could see in the background of one of these other shots that they had. Jesus, gave me a second. Go take a one. Adam's got the black lung.

We'll be back shortly. All right. He doesn't have the rona, by the way. He's been thoroughly tested. Thoroughly tested. This is my fifth year of allergies, and year five not, so good. Okay, so last thing was Fung.

Oh, yeah. So, Dr. Fung, don't know if he's a doctor, but pretty smart guy gets asked about a gate where there was a droplet of blood, a smudge droplet taken off of

a gate at Bundy but it was taken off of I think like a week or two weeks after the initial investigation so they found it later on and it ended up coming back as juices blood

and and uh shek brings up a picture that was taken in between the time that the murder had happened and the time of evidence was found. Yep. And it was a not a good picture. Like it wasn't clear at all. It was very pixelated. No, it was from like a decent distance too. Yeah. And the angle was almost like

level with the gate. You can tell it was the same gate, but that was about it. And the way that, just kind of paint you a picture. So it was a like a big opening double gate but it was metal so it had like the piping at the bottom like a pipe frame it was on top of the bottom piece of pipe

to where you would have to be almost standing kind of over to see it like at an angle it just looks like the top of the pipe you're not saying like a smudge it's not like a clear shot where you can pick it up and also we're talking about filming

in 1994 we didn't have 1080 there was no high definition so don't they just plant the idea they don't even make the, they don't even make the claim that it wasn't there.

They just have to plant the idea so being, they asked him, they're saying is it possible? You know, I don't see that in this earlier picture, but I see it in this one. And so they're asking him, they're like, do you see it in this first one?

And he's like, no, I can't see it in this picture. I can't see it with this picture. They're like, hmm, but you can see it in this other picture. and the other picture was at a different angle and everything but and just it planted that seat of doubt that maybe it wasn't there initially and of course Fong comes to his defense and he says it was there this is just a bad picture he

he openly admits what they're not saying and it again just what's common sense yeah I'm why do I have to bring to point this is a horrible picture and all it does is just open that door of reasonable doubt just an inch more so at this point I think this is we're going to get to kind of the most famous part of the trial that most people familiar with it. It's so sad.

I legitimately feel bad for Chris Darden. He's dumb as shit for Fallen for this. But there has to be a little bit of guilt and responsibility that he thinks about this every time they talk about the case. So it comes to the point where the prosecution has had a hard stance that they're not going to request OJ to put on the glove or gloves. And the rationale is very simple. simple and it's very rational.

Gloves that get wet, they shrink. They shrivel up. You also have to put on a latex glove under it, I think, to protect the evidence. So that's also going to go ahead and stick to the glove and cause it to not fit correctly. Well, think about have you ever tried to put on a glove over

another glove? Yeah. It's going to stick. There's going to be no... The other thing, too, is they don't know if OJ has worked out his hands or anything like They even said that that was something that could possibly happen. Which is funny because when we get into talking about this, a lawyer had recommended to OJ that he stopped taking his arthritis medicine a couple weeks before the trial. It was his manager, I think.

Was it his manager? Yeah. So his manager said that. So he told him he was like, he was talking to the manager about being scared about putting on the gloves and everything like that. And he's like, why, you know, first of all, question that manager's mouth being like, why are you scared of put on the gloves and everything. But at this point, he told him, he goes, hey, he goes, well,

why don't you just stop taking your arthritis medicine? He's like, well, then my hands start hurting like, Helmy's like, and? He's like, and they get all swollen, and he just kind of looked at him, he's like, yeah. So, the prosecution has this to where they're not going to ask

OJ to put on the glove. The reason being is that they know it won't fit. It's also a bluff because they know if the defense tries to use that point of being like, we're going to show you that these gloves don't fit. The prosecution then has the argument of, well, of course they don't fit.

They're wet, they've shrunk, and he's wearing a glove underneath it. They know all the reasons why they shouldn't do it, and they're prepared to use it the other way. Exactly. But if they're the ones that request him to put on the gloves, they're saying that those two things don't matter, that they're so sure it's going to fit anyway.

Well, their belief in making him do it is that it will fit. So they have to throw out all the reasons why it wouldn't, Because they're trying to prove that those are his gloves. Exactly. So, Flee Bailey says he said something to Chris Darden about not having the balls. He's like, you're a good lawyer, but you don't have the balls to do it.

Yeah, he used the word nuts. He goes, you're a good lawyer. You don't have the nuts to make OJ try those gloves on. Yep. And so there was something about in this trial, they feel like, because Chris Darden had kind of been, I don't want to say emasculated, but kind of emasculated.

almost shown to be just like the token black guy on the team. He was trying to out Johnny Johnny, they said. And so he goes out in the hall. Him and Marsha Clark had this huge conversation, kind of an argument and everything. He's like, I want to have him try on the gloves, and she was completely against it. But I guess he ended up being able to either convince her

or I don't know if they were just desperate at that point in the case. He got called up and called the audible there. There was no other discussion. It was basically he made that decision as he was walking up there. So they request for OJ to try on the glove and the clips that they showed him in court. As soon as they ask him that, he kind of perks up and he holds up a latex glove and he points at the latex glove. Like, I'm putting this on. Yeah, he was ready for it.

Starts putting that on. And probably just like, oh my God, I can't believe they're doing this. This is going to be great. So the jury was saying when they brought out the glove and helped him. up the glove and showed it to the jury prior to him trying it on. A few of the jurors were like, had they just shown us the gloves and not done trying on, we would have believed those were OJ's gloves.

Yeah, why wouldn't you? Correct. They're like, they look large enough to fit his hands. And then they did end up having the receipt for the gloves that were bought for OJ. 300 of them made sold in one simple location. So they had the jury, some of the jurors at that point. But then when OJ started trying on,

the glove. He was sitting down between all of his lawyers at the bench and he starts turning on and as soon as it gets a little tight he lifts up his hand and they're like it was like OJ from the naked gun being theatrical with it showing it to the cameras

moving it around stands up, hamping it up, paces back and forth, harming it up trying to pull this glove on over his hand with a latex glove and with swollen hands so the gloves aren't I mean it's not like comedically small like trying to to put on a child's glove.

The gloves are just so tight that he really can't without ripping them or really stretching them get them on his hands, but he's selling it too. And he's shown him both his hands that don't fit and everything. And then they have him hold something that would stand for like a knife handle. And he's showing that he can't like the gloves are keeping him from gripping it. And not to mention go ahead and spread your fingers and make them straight and then think about trying to stick a glove on that hand. And not like bend in your fingers as you're doing it.

to work him down the glove. There's 100% possibility that you could make damn near any glove you try to fit. One of the questions they asked him after that is they were asking people to like, do you agree that he tried on that glove and pulled on that glove in a manner consistent with how a normal person does it? And the defense was like, what are you asking? Is he putting on the glove right and trying to make like him sound crazy? Yeah.

When, if you watch it, he puts on the gloves kind of like a weirdo. Yep. Well, and he, it was every bit of asses. Acting that OJ had done before this point had all just converged onto this one moment. The guy, he had facial expressions. He furrowed his brow to make it look like he was trying. Like I say, he was pacing trying to make it happen.

He gave the best performance of his life. Guy ran for 2,000 yards in a season, and this was his defining moment, was his shitty glove act. So kind of a few other highlights, and I'm kind of looking on the board to see if they're there. there was a couple things that OJ's defense team would do or Johnny Cochran would kind of have them do

wearing almost like matching ties or they would coordinate their outfits in a certain way Johnny Cochran was wearing ties that were like traditional like not African ties but the pattern was like a traditional African type like pattern like Man of the People type stuff

they even did a Saturday life skit about it Tim Meadows was like he goes down the defense team it shows them dressed in like traditional African like robes everything like that it just like goes to show you like and they were doing that during the OJ trial yeah so it was obvious yeah and uh so they would coordinate that kind of stuff but I'm trying to remember where I was going with this hold on oh my God I'm brain farting so bad you got to help me where was I going with this you'll get there we were talking about ties that they would wear outfits being

coordinated. Yeah, and I just saw something in my notes that made me go on that tangent. Oh, other witnesses that came in, sorry. Other witnesses that they had come in, we talked about it a little earlier, they called him ship. I can't remember what his full name was, but he was one of the cops. The retired buddy of... Yeah, and I don't know if he was retired at the time, but he was planning on not testifying.

and he said that he went in to talk to Chris Darden. And I don't know if he got called into Chris Darden's office. I think Chris Darden was like, hey, stop by, I want to talk to you. So he goes to Chris Darden's office. As soon as he comes in the room, like 30 seconds later, he said Chris Darden's assistant, pokes her head in the door and says, hey, Chris, you got a phone call or this guy's here to talk to you. And he's like, hey, ship, give me just a minute. I got to go talk to this guy.

And on his desk, he left a notebook that said, Nicole and Ron. It had their name on it. And I mean, it was strategically placed to where it was on, not on ship's side of the desk, but where he could definitely see it, to where if he was just looking around, he would see it. And his curiosity got the better of him,

and he opened it up, and it was photos of Nicole, just like during her life. And then leading up to, and then it was the crime scene photos. So he comes back in, Chris, Starden comes back in the, office and at that point just in that span of time and doing that ship was like i'm going to testify so i don't know how much of a impact it had on the trial but he got up there because at one point

oj had confessed to him that he had had dreams of killing Nicole that's yeah that's not surprising at all so he got up there and and had said that you know oj had confided in him that he had had dreams of Nicole and then the defense went after him about being like a fake friend to Mr. Simpson not a good enough of a friend to where Mr. Simpson would feel comfortable making confessions to you. They just went after his credibility. It was just to destroy his character.

Well and he was I think probably a last second addition to the witnesses that they wanted to call but at the beginning of the trial after they already made everything happen. There were like 11 witnesses for the defense that hadn't been entered in for like the prosecution or anybody to look them up and to check them over so on cross they could ask them questions.

And it's a big no-no. That doesn't happen. You can't just at the last minute be like, sorry. You have to have a list of who is. You have to give the other side a fair chance at researching and building a case against that. Yeah. So, Cochran says, I'm sorry.

one of my junior associates didn't get them to you. It was completely their fault. I am so sorry that this happened. But Edo says, it's cool. They can come in. I'll allow this to happen. It shouldn't have happened. No, that should be a clear, I don't know the technical term for it,

but that should, yeah. It was just one of the little slip-ins that had happened. That's not a little slip-in, man. No. And that's the way that you can play it as a defense of-trial. You can play it fast and loose. You can do these kinds of things because what's the worst that happens? He says that he doesn't allow them.

Then all of a sudden, okay, well, that line of defense is gone. When you have Ron Ship come in and do this, it was the last second. So I'm sure they couldn't really look into him as the defense and kind of see what his deal was. So you go immediately to emotion. Nope, I know what they did. They did actually know about him. And so he must have been planned for a little bit because they had. or they had just so many resources that they had a game plan for literally everyone in OJ's life.

They went after him because they painted him as a drunk and a womanizer because he had cheated on his wife that he was still with, and they had brought up facts that he had been at OJ's house when he was cheating on his wife and then OJ. And so they asked him about his drinking problems and all this. So they established him as essentially an unreliable witness that may have had a agenda. against OJ. I think they even went so far as to suggest that the woman he cheated on his wife with

looked like Nicole and he had some weird desire to steal Nicole from OJ or something like that. Have you ever said to one of your friends that if it wasn't for OJ, you would have, you would make a run that you would try to date Nicole or something. They asked him a question like that. So they immediately tried to turn him into something, you know, he wasn't. A bad witness. Yes. So one of the other things During this time of course The defense is still You know

Has their investigators out there trying to dig up dirt on any bit of evidence That's already been submitted to try to discredit that And they end up discovering the Furman tapes So So bad So Mark Furman has served as a consultant On a TV show or movie I think it was like a documentary

Okay So he served as a consultant consultant in order to provide accuracy and like check things like that. Not somebody you want to provide accuracy for what the LAPD is doing. But he served as like, you know, on war movies, you know, they'll have a military advisor for accuracy and that kind of stuff. So on set, I'm sure he wasn't wearing a hot mic because I don't think why he would need to wear one. But I do think that who he was talking to probably did have a mic on them. Or there was just a mic in the vicinity.

So he was having conversations with. was it the director or the writer? It was someone in that capacity. I think it was probably a writer because that's who we would have been talking to about the accuracy stuff. Over the course of, I think, how many hours of conversation?

11. 11 hours, he ends up using the N-word. How many times? 40. Well, and he gets set up this whole time because they go through and remind him exactly what he said before. So you remember Mr. Furman,

you said that you hadn't said the N-word this time, this time, and this time. And then they call up Laura Hart-McKine. that producer to testify to this recording. Well, what ends up happening is these recordings are presented to the judge without the jury there. They haven't determined, because this is new evidence.

You can't bring in new evidence and like you were saying, this was a circumstance where Judge Edo didn't just allow it to happen. They had to go ahead and listen to them, both legal teams, and there was a ruling on if any or what would be released. Well, there were hours of these tapes,

and only two examples, I don't know how long they were, but he was only going to allow two examples to be entered in as evidence. To be played for the jury. And they were definitely enough to go ahead and paint Furman, both as a perjurer, because he lied,

and then also to confirm him as a racist. So they bring Furman back up to do another cross-examine. What do you think is going through Darden's head at this point? After going back to what you were talking about before, when they were talking about having the conversation about the N-word, and the fact that Cochran kept saying, you don't think we can handle this, you don't think we can handle this?

We're going to find every example where this thing was used during this case. Uh-huh. And now he's listening to this in seeing the just visceral reaction on the juror's faces, is Ferman says the N-word every single time. He's got to be thinking, you motherfucker, you knew that this was going to be what was going to happen.

Yeah. And I, there was something along the lines of they had to use Furman as their witness because had they not used Furman, he was such a big part of the investigation. The defense would have determined that there was something about him

that would discredit him. And then that's why the prosecution wasn't calling him as a witness. So they, They would have then called him as a witness. But the best thing that they could have done for Furman was called up each of those four policemen that were already at Bundy before he got there

and say, did you see this glove? Did you see this hat? Were there two gloves? Because all they have to do is establish what he's there to do. Your phone into the logic thing. It's not logic. As soon as they determine he's racist, that logic, it does simply in this situation go out the window

because, and he perjured himself. It does, but when you're talking about them questioning about planting the glove and the evidence, if you have other officers there to say there was only one glove. I think this trial was just a series of big, like, aha, or like reveals and everything. It was a magic show the whole time. Yeah, that's actually what I had a title on my paper, The Magic Show. So they pulled Furman up and re-examine him based on his previous testimony. and just like

destroys him. They're like so, obviously you can tell that you did use this word within the last 10 years. And what that does is that includes questions that he now has to plead the fifth to every single question they ask him. And not only the fifth to these questions,

questions specifically like, have you ever planted evidence in a crime scene before? That was, I think, that was, oh, that was when they went back. And they're like, last question, please. Because they said something, they're like, are you simply going to plead the fifth to any question we ask?

And he was like, yes, I will. And so they went and kind of deliberated the defense did. And they hadn't asked him about the glove. Yep. And so his lawyer, while they were deliberating, was like, Your Honor, he's just going to plead the fifth. It's a waste of time regards to what question they're going to ask. And then the defense leans up on the mic and is like,

oh, just one final question. Have you ever manufactured or tampered with evidence? And then he has to say... So that instantly calls into doubt if he has. That was the second to the last. The last was, was there any evidence that had been tampered with or anything that you had done to affect this O.J. Simpson case? Oh, and he just pled the fifth.

And he had to plead the fifth again because he's already perjured himself to the point to where he's in trouble. He's already committed a felony. Correct. I mean the other cops that were interviewed as part of the documentary were like, you answer that last question. I don't care what it is.

I have never tampered with evidence, planet evidence. If you're going to answer a question, you answer that question if that gets called. Because pleading the fifth, you don't have to say yes or no and protects you from self-incrimination. It's guilt by omission.

But yeah, that's just all that it is. So basically, I'm going to get to, I have closing remarks. Do you have anything before. We still got to get to the civil suit and everything too. Yeah, a couple of the other things that Judge Ito did that were bullshit. They brought, the prosecution brought up a bunch of letters that they had found from Nicole.

And there were certain different letters that she had written to OJ. Some of them she had delivered, some of them she hadn't. And they searched through these. And Edo said that any of the letters that the prosecution wanted to use, excuse me, were considered hearsay because they could never confirm if it was her writing them or if anybody else had seen them. There was one letter that Edo let in. And it was a letter where Nicole had just been going through counseling and was talking about wanting their life back together and wanting to be that family and wanting to accept OJ's fault.

Of course it was. To the point of her sounding like a woman who just wants to come back, who wants everything back, that OJ may not have been the worst guy because she's still pursuing him. Which to say no to all the others and just let that one in, that's hearsay just as much. The only thing is OJ is like, yeah, I've seen that letter before. So why wouldn't you say that?

So basically the closing arguments from the prosecutor, prosecution, Mars Clark Hammers home, the evidence. That's what she's relying on. DNA evidence, history of abuse and his lack of alibi for I think it was the hour and 15, maybe a little bit more, that he was unaccounted for that night. And

going back to a witness that she had called when she called Alan Park up, I believe it was Park. Oh, he was the Lomote driver. Yep. Yeah. She called him up and he had testified to seeing the big black shadow come across the driveway

and go up the walkway where they had found the blood trail. And then O.J. not responding when he was trying to chime in and everything like that. So not only the timeline, but the fact that there was a witness that saw a shadowy figure in that timeline that could have just been coming back from Bundy. Johnny's closing remarks, he basically compares

Furman to Hitler. He makes the direct reference. Yes. There was direct words. Yeah. And what he, this is my opinion watching it. What he basically does is he makes this not a murder trial. He makes this a trial of like a social justice trial. Yeah. And he basically is making the jurors feel responsible for correcting like the current racial and social injustices with their verdict. Not just this case, but all the things that have happened. What he's basically saying is that you've seen all of the mishandling of evidence, the

corruption. This is a situation in which if this man is found guilty, there's no one that can be found innocent, even with all of this mishandling of the, you know, the evidence and what the LAPD and what the DA's office did. And so he put that on them that they can be the people that stop it and that change the direction, that give them justice, that can be part of the change. They hold power to equality. Yeah, exactly. And then the comment that he makes the, you know, the big, the big one about the glove, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. They said that was... Catchy is all hell. They said that, and that, right there,

they said that was thought of about a month and a half before that. Oh, I'm sure. When they were on a conference call, they were talking about the glove and one of the, like, the assistants that was on the phone conference call said that. If it doesn't fit, you must have quit. And they just remembered that. and again like you were saying he puts it back as almost like a trial for like the soul of L.A. Yeah. It's a verdict for the soul of L.A. Like help us fix this. This is this is your opportunity. You're never going to have this opportunity again to help balance the scales of the social justice. He's not talking to just everybody in the courtroom either. He knows all all the people watching at home.

He's it's not even just a plea to the jury. It's a plea to the jury. It's a plea to the court. the cameras to get just even the public on OJ's side, which it's a brilliant strategy. I mean, had they been better, had all these different incidences with the LAPD not happened, he would have had a tougher time proving it. But there were so many things that the LAPD had done previous to this that it was kind of... It poisoned that rational thought. Exactly. that, yeah. So trial is 267 days. So what do they say is usually the normal calculation for how long a jury should deliberate based on trial length?

They usually say for every week of testimony, there should be a day of deliberations. Okay. So doing that calculation, I'm not going to get close to it, but I'm just going to factor in and say there should have at least been, I don't know, 40, 40 days? Yeah, let's say 40 plus days of deliberation. 37 you were very close nice okay how long did they deliberate uh all of four hours three and a half yeah they probably rounded it up and called it four three and a half hours here's how unexpected that was the entire defense team made vacation plans because they thought that they were going to be out and with nothing to do for the weeks if not months that it took the jury to deliberate on this Hopefully it didn't ruin any trips

I think someone had already started driving to wine country I'm dead serious Really? Yes And they got the call That the jury had reached his verdict And everyone needed to go You know how long does that take too If you're really thinking about it

Like everyone dismisses for this Scatters They make a call You know the jury's reached his record They have to wait for everybody to assemble Oh yeah Everybody's gonna be there Before they're able to do that

And We all know what the result of that was the court clerk went ahead and read Not Guilty on any charges It didn't say that they had declared him innocent They had declared him not guilty Which happened in front of more people It happened in front of a hundred and forty million people watching at home

That was how many people tuned in for the verdicts Which It was what 90% of the United States There's a scene outside the courthouse where everyone was like line the streets with the signs because they knew the bird was coming and the LAPD had planned you know there had to at this point I I don't know what the pulse was if they was 50-50 at this point or anything but the LAPD dispatched the riot police like on horseback and so they had them kind of in the streets there by the courthouse in between the two sets of you know people on the

sidewalks and you have everyone just being insanely quiet as the verge is read because somebody's either probably listening to it like on a radio yeah something and as soon as it comes back not guilty the crowd erupts so loud that it just scares the shit out of all these horses and the horses are like jumping and backing up and everything um

I think they said you know right toward the end of the trial it was previously that like 53% of white people thought OJ was guilty at the beginning compared to like 47 46,

47% of black people believing he was innocent. It was very close. It was almost 50-50, kind of on both that. As the trial went on and all this stuff comes to light, it changes to 73% of white people believe OJ is guilty. 77% something around there of black people think he's innocent. So as the trial went on, it just opened up this huge, just racial gap. Well, when you're speaking to one audience that thinks,

yeah the LAPD might have fumbled some stuff but all in all there's enough DNA evidence that this should happen whereas the other sect of people are looking at it seeing it as yeah this is the same shit that they do to us on a daily basis of course they framed him so shortly after this apparently Shapiro had had this thing about the trial that they weren't going to play the race card

as part of the trial which it was obviously played and played about as perfectly as you could play it. He kind of turns on the defense team and has a problem with Johnny and everything. I don't know if it's at a jealousy for not being the first chair on the defense team and everything because Johnny takes it over. I absolutely believe that he thinks he didn't get enough credit for it.

But basically makes it known through, you know, news interviews and everything like that that he's not going to work with Johnny Cochran. He has no, he wouldn't work with him in the future. doesn't believe that he should have compared Furman to Hitler that it was um that excessive

it was a little excessive and the way that he was compared to Hitler is basically he was like if Furman can act like this and get away with all this kind of stuff that's the same kind of stuff that Hitler used to get away with and look what happened to him it was a suggestion that somehow Furman and Hitler were on a parallel path

and both of course I'm not sticking up for Furman here anything like that what I'm just saying is he basically said in 20 years Furman could be our Hitler if he's allowed to continue along and getting away with this kind of stuff. It's less sticking up for Furman as it is more just like... Not going to undersell

Hitler too. Yes, exactly. That's a perfect wording. So the Browns end up filing a civil suit with the Goldman's against OJ and this is kind of, what's the difference essentially between the criminal and the

civil suit? There's just so much that the level of evidence that you have to have going into a civil trial is so much lighter than going in against a criminal trial so like all the letters that we were talking about that weren't allowed into the criminal trial we're let into the civil trial the the level of evidence as far as like what is needed isn't so much and in a criminal trial it has to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a civil trial all it has to be is over a 50% threshold that it's either more likely or less likely that it occurred. And you're not guilty or innocent, you're found liable or not liable.

That's right. So one thing that I didn't know about this, and I guess correct me if I'm wrong, is in the murder trial, they weren't able to question Simpson. It would have, they could have, but they would have had to have requested it. And I don't believe that you're allowed to request it. I think he has to bring it up on his own because he would be incriminating himself if he was that way. So in a civil suit,

they could cross-examine him. Yep. So they were able to get him on the stand. Because he's not incriminating himself at that point and he's just telling his story. So here's the big... Please tell me you went into his antics on the stand. I saw the ones where he got...

So he got called in for questioning on this civil suit and he was acting, not like weird, but he was almost acting untouchable. Like he was like really loose, like on the interview table and making jokes and everything and he just wasn't taking it seriously. He stood up one time on the stand and said, we got to take a break. I got to take a piss. Was how nonchalant he was about answering these questions because he knew at this point, you can't be tried a second time.

No, no, no. This is just for money. Yeah. And he, that's not something, it's not that he had money, but he just, he'd just gotten away with a double murder. That like. And he knows that there are certain things. and we'll get into some of the stuff that they couldn't touch after the settlement happens. So this trial is actually set in Santa Monica with a different jury demographic,

the one that they could have originally had during the double murder. So being able to go ahead and question him and make him answer questions, it was very apparent that he was guilty. The other thing to do is he didn't have the dream team during the civil scene. Yeah, they called it.

Yep. There were a criminal defense. attorneys. They weren't civil defense attorneys. So he didn't have the same resources. So he's found guilty. And one of the major things that they brought up in the civil case, which I don't know why they couldn't do it in the criminal case, was the shoe prints that they had found outside of Bundy and at Rockingham were from a pair of shoes. I want to say they were Bruno Molleys.

were they Bruno Males? I know they were Bruno somethings. But it was a pair of shoes that they'd only made like 200 of. And they had asked OJ if he had worn those shoes before. And OJ answers the questions, nah, I don't own those ugly ass shoes. You'd never catch me dead in those. To which...

Cut to the pro ball broadcasts that they have video of him on wearing the shoes. And pictures that they had had of him going out wearing them were his only response back to is well yeah if I did wear and I borrowed them from a buddy or something like that those weren't mine which again shoes that match the exact

description of a very rare pair of shoes in OJ's size and then OJ being seen in said shoes is that's perfect so the and they basically just they said they played the exact same trial

that the prosecution went after OJ with almost to the letter used the same evidence and because he didn't have this dream team discrediting it and being able to question all of these things and turn it into more of a frame-up job that it was very apparent that he was guilty. That and then the judge told them that they weren't going to be allowed to spin these conspiracy theories about the LAPD and frame jobs. They said that that all wasn't going to factor into this trial because the trial is only about

the facts. It's only about what you can prove. It's not about what you think you can prove. So she ends up, what was awarded? It was $33 million, right? $33 million, which would have been $55 million in today's money. And, of course, at this point, he doesn't have that kind of money. No.

So they look to liquidate, garnish OJ's wages. Unfortunately, they can't touch his pension that he had gotten from the NFL. So he's still going to have money fly. coming in from that, but everything else that he does have, they're able to auction off. So they end up auctioning off everything from inside of his house really. Did you hear what he did for that too? Huh. So a couple days before the Los Angeles County Sheriff was coming out with moving trucks

to gather stuff to be sold at auction to restart repaying, he had a whole bunch of people come over the day before and assigned a bunch of people, family members, friends, to take a whole bunch of stuff back to their houses. he had storage units all over California, and he would send all of this stuff to storage units that weren't in his name. And he, during the day that this was happening or the days this was happening,

he was just outgolfing. So he had an alibi about not moving stuff out of the house. So when the sheriff's deputies or whoever was coming to claim all that stuff showed up, there was hardly anything there of value at Rockingham. That's ridiculous. I don't want to say it's smart, but it's not.

dumb. Well, and the other thing too is, you know, after this, yeah, he was found not guilty in the double murder, but how many people actually thought he was not guilty? Not just people in L.A., but if you were to go ahead and just ask...

Well, your career is over. Oh, yeah, even if you were found not guilty, if there was even a doubt of people had that you're guilty. You're no longer on, you know, broadcasting football games. You don't have endorsements. You don't have sponsorships or

a movie anywhere it's done look up what states OJ's banned from is he banned from a couple states so after this all happens OJ moves out of L.A. He heads down to Miami

he's living the high life down there off of his pension he's hooked up with some type of kind of like sleazy ass business with not a lot to lose for like memorabilia doesn't he? That but he's also down there fraternizing

with all the big cocaine kingpins and dealers down in Miami he's down there running some very odd schemes to the point to where the police come and raid his house down there and he gets arrested on charges that they were illegally

stealing cable feeds yeah like they literally were telecommunications companies were coming after him to try to get back restitution from him stealing all this cable. They're trying to hang

drug charges on him because they were saying that they found large amounts of drugs at his place. And they're interviewing these drug kingpins down there and they're all saying, yeah, OJ was connected down here.

He was a big deal. And all that ends up coming out of that was that he was fined it was a certain amount of money to go back to the cable companies. But that was it. He said, skirts getting caught doing something else again.

Well, there was another thing that happened after this, too, is when he found out that, you know, the majority of America believed he did it, he wasn't able to really work. This weird thing happened where he suddenly started very uncharacteristically like promoting like black culture and everything. He started to try to get more involved in that community and everything. Urban, you would say. And the reason that he did that is he found that that's where he could get love and adoration still. If he was still a voice in that community, you know, and what's a proponent for that community,

he would find a lot more fans and love there than he would in others. Well, because I'm sure most of his white friends and the people that he had gotten chummy with over the last so many years in those circles, it'll turn their backs on him because they had seen the evidence. They knew what he was in trial. There was a review with several of them that were just like, as soon as we saw certain segments or segments of evidence, we were just like, I never would have thought he could have done it.

And not to mention the people that saw weird interactions with him and Nicole that they didn't think twice. Saw the blowups on the golf course or something like that. Now she's dead. The rage underneath, yeah. So he ends up in, 2006? Does he Is that when he gets the book deal?

That's when he announces if I had done it. Yeah. Which him and a ghostwriter got together and it wasn't an admission of guilt. It was basically OJ's telling of how the murders would have happened if he was the one. The publisher was a pretty reputable publisher.

And their whole excuse for taking it is we thought we could get a full confession out of him over the course of this book. that we would have enough to actually get a confession and he would pay for that. So the book ends up coming out and... It comes out, but the Goldman's sued the publisher. Correct. Before it came out. Yep.

They sued it. And because they, because of the civil suit, they had like all rights to the story and everything. They were awarded any dollar that they made. So they released the book. and what they did is they took the if and they made it super small and put it in the eye so when you looked at the book you just said I did it

yeah a nice little nod just to let him know the thing is the Goldman's did that without the Brown's knowledge and it was this big thing because it was of course OJ provided in detail details of the murder what he did to the bodies and everything how he would have driven back

the exact route he would have gotten between the two places. Yep. And yeah, the Browns didn't know about that and so that was kind of which completely

understood. Like, yeah, that gets put out and also in the details of your daughter's murder or just laid bare for a whole new generation of people that aren't aware

of the trial. And at that point, there is no healing for them. There's no relief. It's, you can't bring Nicole back and trying to move on from it, I can totally see.

And to know that it's 2006 and this is just rearing its ugly head. I think the Browns really tried to move on and get on with their lives and everything. And I think the Goldman's, at least the dad, has stayed kind of obsessed with this. Just the way it sounds, he's made it his mission to just dog OJ until the day he dies. His sister as well has done so many things for the community and domestic violence and trying to keep Ron's name alive through all these different charities that they do.

They don't want Ron forgotten. Okay, so 2007, this is what I knew that he got arrested for the memorabilia thing, but it was so much deeper than I thought it was. I thought he literally was in Vegas. He saw some of his memorabilia being like advertised at a casino, and he tried to break into the case to steal his memorabilia, and that's what they got him for. This, this right here is the reason that I can't ever get O.J. out of my brain. This whole thing is the biggest conglomerate of just a mental enigma, knowing that you got away with murder. You got away with double murder. You had to pay a civil suit that effectively didn't do anything for you because you're still collecting money, not doing anything.

Or your money's in offshore bank accounts, untouchable bank accounts, intracable bank accounts. And instead of just laying low and not having such an ego that you felt that you needed to get these things back, but you couldn't shut that little part of your brain the fuck up to stop you from doing illegal things

and just continuing to try to think that everything that you do is justified. It's mind-bottling to me. Okay, so let me see if I get this correct. I'm going to give a summarized version because we're running close to our time. Okay. After all of the OJ. Murder

trial stuff goes down and he separates all of his stuff into different storage units to his friends acquaintances managers whatnot a bunch of his memorabilia both personal items that were actually his the heisman certain footballs his Russian title football all that kind of stuff along with a ton of signed merchandise are kind of dispersed between different storage units or different locations and a couple key people are able to like acquire that one of them being his manager, who I believe also has his Heisman, his former manager, who also has his Heisman and some other stuff, like a lot of his personal things, that he took as compensation for, he wasn't paid.

O.J. stopped paying him, so he took it in... OJ's Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yeah, basically. It's OJ's the Lost Ark, his Heisman trophy. And I don't know if it was in there, but probably his Hall of Fame ring is in there. And so he took that as compensation for the amount that OJ didn't pay. him. He had another guy that he'd worked with previously

by selling merchandise and signing it, and that's how OJ would actually make money. So, apparently, O.J., does he find out that, like, one of these guys is in L.A. trying to sell a bunch of merchandise, and he wants to go get it back because he feels like it was stolen from him? He gets wind that there were things

that hadn't been auctioned off, and things like you were talking about that were in the storage units that were his that he wanted back. And he had sent, I believe, it was one person in to kind of buy stuff from him and see what it was all about.

And he brings it back and OJME is like, oh yeah, I remember that. That's mine. Just a complete rush to judgment on what was happening. And so him and I think it was either three or four guys. Yeah, one of them the only one that had a weapon

on him was a buddy of his that was a... Not AC. Huh? It wasn't AC. No, no. It was a different guy that only came in at this point like we're in oj's life but he had like a he had worked security so he had like a gun license and everything oj's like i just want you to come in so you can help me intimidate these guys he this guy had no idea that it was going to be as big as it was so he's the only guy with the gun and when he talks about it and everything he's like yeah i showed him the gun

and everything he's like i didn't know what i was doing he's like i was trying to act tough that's all it was you're just supposed to be the muscle exactly yeah so oj in these four or five other guys end up going into this hotel room at, oh, was it Palis station in Vegas? That sounds right. Yeah. So it was at the Palis Station. They go in and this memorabilia guy has a bunch of OJ stuff that OJ had like signed

himself and he had known this guy. Yeah. And there was also a guy that had like he was working with that had a bunch of like Pete Rose and then another player memorabilia, another pitcher or a pitcher or something like that. and so basically OJ comes in and says nobody's leaving this room and the memorabilia guy

that had previously worked with OJ he was recording it the entire time he just recorded all their conversations probably looking to sell out OJ at some point if you needed to absolutely and so tells them nobody's leaving until we get this sorted out

threatens a couple other people there's acknowledgement of a gun being in the room and then it ends up resulting in OJ and then stealing all of this stuff. Not just the stuff OJ could claim was his. I'm doing air quotes right now. After OJ had realized that none of the stuff

that they were there to steal was the stuff that he had wanted. Yeah, it wasn't the personal stolen stuff. It was stuff that he intended to sell his memorability anyway. But they had stolen the stuff back. They just boxed it up and took it. And the whole time this is happening, like, usually in a hostage situation, there's going to be some hostility and there's going to be some scared people. This guy that they went into Rob was like, oh shit, OJ, great to see you, man. Good to see you, buddy.

Yeah. It was like, everything was unfolding in front of this guy's like, hey, take it, sure. So they called the police immediately. Knowing that this was going to be the outcome of how this happened, they have video evidence that OJ is robbing them and he's fucking OJ. So they have the cameras in the casino that show them leaving the room, coming out, walking from the floor with, like, bags or boxes. Then they have the recorded stuff from inside the room. So they get him for the poetic justice of the sentencing on this was amazing to me. So he's convicted during his trial.

He's arrested like, what, three days later? Two or three. It was right in there. And he's convicted of armed robbery. because there was the gun. Yep. Attempted kidnapping because he said

nobody's leaving this room until we get this sorted out, which is... It's all about the phrasing. Yep. The sentencing and his conviction, the judge delayed the jury.

She held the jury, I think, for an extra day. I don't know what she said to hold him for an extra day. She held it for an extra day because the day he was convicted was 13 years to the day. that he was acquitted of the double murders, he ends up being charged

or he ends up being given a total of 33 years. 9 to 33 years is a sentencing. The max, yeah, it was 9 to 33, but it was 33, they feel like, added up to equal the 33 million of the civil suit that he never paid to the Goldman's.

Well, and that was, the thought was that this was, because sentencing for what he did should have been like, two to three years max. They said that max, yeah. But this judge... They could have dropped like they normally the DA would have dropped like the attempted kidnapping based upon what he said. They would have thought that that was just a technicality or something like that. And he would have maybe gotten like armed robbery. Yep. And then that got and would have gotten that brought down.

Just a much lesser sentence from what it was sentenced. But they they went after him. Rightfully so. I'm not, you know, there's no defense of this. I have a tough time with it. I, I, you have a tough time that he was part of me does because there is something to where we see it in other parts of society where people are unfairly sentenced to super long terms

for doing little shit so you would like to think that in the court system there's something that says I know you want to do this and I know you have some sort of bias but just try to play it straight and fair and then the other part of me is like they should have given him life for

armed robbery. I totally agree with what happened. I get what you're saying. You just can't play any sort of past into it. Well, the other thing too is that he ends up fucking getting paroled, what, 10 years later? It was nine. He got the low end

of the sentence. And after, before he was released, Florida's Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said the Friday before OJ was released that OJ Simpson is not welcome to relocate to Florida once he's released from Love Lug correctional facility on patrol or on parole. So Florida, with all the crazy ass people that come out

of Florida and all the crazy things that have to be a hard pass on OJ. Yeah, OJ is like the one guy like, yeah, maybe not. Despite, despite OJ being famous for coming from Florida, orange juice, they want no part of that OJ. Not at all. It's like there's no, we, there's not room for two types of OJ in this state. We can promise you. We like our oranges. Get the fuck out. We can promise you. the only juice that will be loose in this state is grown here. Man, it is, and now, like, getting into kind of just the, how I feel about this, it's, man, like, he's almost like, you know, when you see people pose for pictures of him and everything, of course it's a gimmick, and of course I really think those people think he's guilty.

But it's like, what is it? Is it this weird, safe, dangerous taboo thing that you're literally taking a picture with someone, you know killed two people but you you think he's not going to do anything like I don't get it I kind of do from his perspective from everything

because there was a theme that I kept bringing up in the episode before about how OJ is just a master narcissist and that's all he is and all he lives on and all he breathes is needing that adoration from other people and needing to make things

about him to the fact that he has a Twitter account now that he got like that's up Twitter world yeah the day after he got out that I think it's I'm gonna be way off but I think the last time I saw it had like 800,000 followers yes to the point to where he's doing videos saying I think Carol Baskin's husband is gait of food and it's like what you he's probably on what's that thing that you can have people leave you messages or video what was that what's that call Vimeo Camio. I bet he does a cameo too. He's just, his mind is warped so much to think that he's still out there and people want to hear from him.

And unfortunately, there are people like you say that think that it's funny, that think that it's a joke, that are keeping OJ that are giving him that feeling of need that he has to have other people come out and be there. And that's the fucked up thing about it, is this guy's a murder. This guy is a killer. And here's the thing, too, is, has there ever been? been a documentary or a TV series about being on the side of OJ to prove he's innocent? There hasn't. Every single, the OJ Made in America, the People versus OJ Simpson, when you have a documentary dedicated to show how it fucked up enough to let you get away with, that's what it is. it's a show about what you have to fuck up enough to let someone get away with a double murder. Yeah.

And then the TV show is just, hey, we're going to get people to act so fucking dumb that he's going to get away with murder. Like, it's basically media with the sole intent to show you that he was guilty. Oh, absolutely. He just gone off on several technicalities. And that's a bummer part is I honestly can't. like I don't agree with him being found innocent or not guilty. I don't agree that he didn't do it. I again fully believe with all my heart and soul that he did do it.

But at the same time, how this played out in the perfect storm of where it was, how poorly the prosecution went after him, how many issues that they had, the witnesses that they brought up, and just basically them opening them, the door for the defense to do whatever they could. The defense won this case, but I almost feel like it was more that the prosecution just lost the case. You have everything against the prosecution, I feel like, in this scenario. One, they shot themselves in the foot more times than you can count.

The defense not only had the advantage of a wealth of evidence against a lot of their witnesses and against the, you know, the case in general, they also had time on their side. The longer this thing went on, and I don't think this gets enough credit, the longer this thing went on, you know, with those juries, and we kind of touched this on the beginning,

these people were sequestered for 200, what was it, 267? 267. They asked one of the jurors, they're like, she's like, they're like 267 days, and she was like 266 nights. She's like, that I was alone in my room. not able to talk to other people. Away from your family, friends.

She's like, they're like, why did it only take three and a half hours? They're like, we deliberated in our minds every night, every night. Every time we had a new day, that new piece of information was logged and we recalculated our belief on it. She's like, do I believe that the time that we've been away from our families and our friends factored into it? She's like, how can you not believe that? Yeah, absolutely. One of the women that was on the jury, they asked her straight up. They said, do you think, you know, what percentage of the jurors do you think viewed this as justice for Rodney King?

And who knows if she was correct, but she's like, from the things that I heard, she's like 90, 80, 90. And she's like, it, you know, do I regret maybe thinking that way? sure but that's the way I felt at the time well and for Johnny Cochran all that is is proof positive that everything that he said in his closing arguments did its trick it landed yeah that everything that he brought into it was something that was affected yeah yeah like you say being sequestered for that long again is just another thing that works against the prosecution I had they made this trial a month long I don't know how you would have but if you just would have out all the extra

shit and just shot straight into this is domestic violence homicide. This isn't about any evidence collecting anything like that. This was a guy who was... There's a pattern of abuse. Statistically speaking, the abuse leads to further abuse. Yeah. And here's the evidence to back that up, that he was there. You already know that he was capable of doing something like this.

What's to stop him from making the little jump from abuse to murder? And call in every single friend. family member anybody to testify to what you saw don't focus on the evidence so much day and i get it the evidence was a slam dunk they went through in every single one of the uh i think it was dr gerds was called up there and every single piece of evidence that the defense had questioned he had said it wasn't contaminated we had two different labs like you were talking about earlier we had two different labs double check this and check this i think they felt like the evidence was so clear just looking at it, that they felt like the evidence spoke for itself when maybe they

underestimated how understood the evidence was. Yeah. Because your normal person, especially at that time, you're like, this is DNA. And they're like, oh, okay. Like now that's in every TV show movie. We know just from TVs and movie that, oh, once it's DNA, it's for certain, 100%. Well, back then, maybe because it was newer in cases or anything like that, that there was a way to, you know, sewed out to its reliability.

Yeah. I feel like it's a lot of what you were talking about with the gloves, too, and what the jurors had said, had they just brought the gloves out and said, these are the ones that we found, these are OJ's gloves, we can link it back to him. That would have been enough. But the fact that they went the extra mile to have him try it on,

I'm sure there was so much of that DNA evidence that they were scrambling to try to prove, hey, this is valid, that it was just an information overload. I know. That too. Like how much, how many of those 267 days was designed fluff by the defense? Like, you know, they're going to provide a lot of clear-cut DNA evidence.

Why don't we just provide a whole bunch of evidence and just try to muddy the water? Make them process so much information that it's a lot harder to pick out the key pieces of information, you know? Yeah, which I could see. I just want to see. What did we talk about how many witnesses there were? Total witnesses. It was 133? During the trial, which lasted more than eight months,

some 150 witnesses testified. OJ didn't take the stand himself. So you're talking about 150 different people giving you all these different amounts of information that you have to take in and that you have to try to weigh against each other. And then the ones that you do here that aren't truthful or that they get caught in a lie, how do you have to be able to take that and just dispense that out of your head and dispose of it

and say, okay, I can't listen to that. I can't let that come into play. It was, yeah, I'm not going to lie to you, man. Like, after watching all of this and seeing everything like that, it definitely, it's depressing. Well, that's where I boil it down to. it is sad that it happens. We see court cases all the time in America that still don't go the right way.

I mean, this is decades before Casey Anthony. This is decades before a woman got on the stand and admitted that she killed her daughter and still got found not guilty. So we still get things wrong, but the fact that he's still out there lurking and doing what he's doing and still golfing, still having fun and all that stuff,

that's where Justice isn't served. If he had gotten out and everybody had turned away from him and he was just a social pariah, I could be better with it. It makes you lose faith in society, especially with stuff that's going on right now. You're like, that's, we don't just, you know, shun that person in our society. There's still people that are going to pay that person to interact with them and everything. It kind of makes you think, had Charles Manson accidentally been paroled or had something like that happened. He never following.

Yeah, of course you would. All those people would have. And unfortunately, OJ is just one person that got away with something that was absolutely vile. And he's right back to, he's not the celebrity that he was and he never will be again. But he's still the kind of Pete Rose that hangs out. Man, if he looks at that number on his Twitter, that might be enough for him. 800,000 people want to hear him on words. Okay.

What does he have? That's what I was going to look at. Yeah, I mean, there's a reason that this is such a huge event. in recent history and just this scope of what it covers. I don't know if this whole episode

was more about OJ's. It just was about the system of trials that we have and how it worked. It can be both. It just absolutely feels like it's a bummer. Did you have a last piece of information? 893,000

followers, OJaz. All right, well... And his last post was on the 15th, and he's talking about I'm assuming the shootings that happened in Buffalo because he's wearing a Buffalo hat saying, talking proud. Yeah. Talk about it. Fucking

just dickhead. All right, well, I got to take another piece, so that's probably where... Yeah, I'm good, man. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. This was interesting. I really like this one, but I'm not sad to see this one kind of go. No, I love OJ and thank Uncle C.K. for bringing up one of my favorite topics because I just got to blow my OJ load on this and it was a great topic for him to bring up. But reading so much about what happened, it makes you a little bit sad for humanity.

Yeah. All right, guys, thanks for listening. You know how to get a hold of us and again, send us your guys' feedback. You want to say bye? Peace.