History That Doesn't Suck - 117: Epilogue on Progressive Era Part I (Teddy Roosevelt)

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

With the Presidency of Teddy Roosevelt covered, Greg sits down with Zach and Kelsi to talk favorite stories (especially those that didn’t make it in the episodes) and take in the big picture of this bigger-than-life President. Zach’s settled in. Greg’s owning his botched pronunciation of “Reading, PA.” Kelsi’s landing some jabs. The sarcasm and snark is almost as strong as the history in this one! ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What did it take to survive an ancient siege? Why was the cult of Dionysus behind so many slave revolts in ancient Rome? What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen and Jenny from Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy, perspective. Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you

might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes.

If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue. Now, on with the show. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and it is time for an epilogue, time to digest some of the stories we've enjoyed in the last few episodes. I'm joined by my friends, Kelsey Dines. Hey, y'all. And Zach Weaver. Glad to be back, Greg. And so glad to have you both back.

So we kind of inadvertently did the volume of Theodore Roosevelt. I thought it was going to be a few episodes less, but had a great time with it, ready to digest it, and we'll continue on with the progressive era. However, of course, before we say anything more about Teddy, let's go ahead and get to what I think is some people's favorite part where we acknowledge anything that slipped through our fingers like sand. It's certainly my mom's favorite part. And let's say hello to Zach's mom.

Hi, Zach's mom. Is that how you refer to her? Yeah. You guys hang out? Even when I give her a hug, I'm like, hello. Hi, Zach's mom. Hi, Zach's mom. Is that how you refer to her? Like you guys hang out? Even when I give her a hug, I'm like, hello, my mother, Zach's mother. I think it's great that you all embrace the third person so strongly in the Weaver clan. That's great. And we jumped into recording the last epilogue so quickly. We did forget. We were remiss. We did not say hello to your mom. So an absolute deep and full-on apology and salutation to Zach's mom.

I'm happy to say hello to my mom. I know what will make up for us missing last time is jumping into this specific correction because she found it as funny, I think, as we all did, right? Oh, good. Good. Kelsey, did you find this one funny? I found it hilarious. Okay. Okay. So, with credit to...

I'm going to stick with 25% of the state of Pennsylvania. That's probably a very conservative number. I... Fine. I'm talking conservative number. I, fine. I'm talking mid-90s, Greg. So many emails and messages. Okay, so apparently it isn't the Reading Railroad, it's the Reading Railroad.

And I was lied to. Thank you, I know. I was lied to by everyone who ever played Monopoly with me as a child in the 80s and 90s. We got emails. We got Facebook messages. We got letters. We got smoke signals. Yeah, I learned, you know, it was just dots and dashes for it's pronounced reading, not reading.

I feel like there might have been just a few who were like, oh, this is my moment. I've been waiting for this. My time to shine. Well, you know, they probably deal with people saying it wrong so much that they're like, it's coming up, it's going to be said wrong. I'm sure. I didn't know.

Yeah. And as you both know, my Jackson grandparents born and raised in Pennsylvania. I, how did, How did I grow up playing Monopoly with my dad? And apparently he didn't know, or I don't know what to make of it. I really feel like there was some, you know, something failed to get passed down on the Pennsylvania side of the family there. That's the gap in your knowledge yes with yes with all love and all respect and everything to everyone in pennsylvania who wrote in this correction it does read like

reading it is spelled reading but if there's no no that's also pronounced red. It's true, right? It is. Because English is insane. Past participle versus present. Oh, yeah. Blame not us, but blame the English language. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in the English language. Oh, indeed. Indeed, sir. Well played.

And I also want to note, as is always the case whenever one of these creep up, you all are so kind with your emails. And I do appreciate that. They're very complimentary and very understanding. Always started with, you guys do such a great job. Just this one little thing. I'll tell you the task of trying to pronounce correctly. The cities, the rivers, the everything of this incredibly vast, diverse nation and all the linguistic influences and places that haven't been. Yeah. But we do really have almost, I'm

going to say an almost bulletproof system at this point in place yeah um more time is spent checking pronunciation than i ever care to uh acknowledge to myself because i think i'd cry uh you know in the corner if i realized my life was spent doing that um but uh but i think that's one of the things that people appreciate is that you do put in the effort to make sure that you pronounce these things correctly and i can't tell you i think i've called like seven different the effort to make sure that you pronounce these things correctly. And I can't tell you, I think I've called like seven different police stations to make sure that I have gotten the correct pronunciation of a town name.

So that I can tell him what it is. 911, what's your emergency? What is the name of your town? Greg is recording. Right now. Bucyrus? Bucyrus. Bucyrus. Okay.

Thank you. Could you spell that phonetically for me? This is an emergencies only line, ma'am. I only call the non-emergency line. Oh my gosh. Okay. Anyhow, that's acknowledged. And we'll fix that one.

Okay. We'll fix it. We Okay, we'll fix it. Yeah, we'll go back and fix it. That's when, yeah. Okay, I get it. All right, so that said, that was fun. Teddy.

The Rough Rider. We're just going to look. I feel like we did such a very thorough, deep dive on the Square deal. We had a solid episode on foreign policy. Rather than take this in a kind of systematic way, we're just going to get into the fun things that maybe didn't get into these episodes and take it from there. Here's where I would start with Teddy. I would start with Teddy where we started with Teddy. Well, that sounds like a pretty good place to

start. You know, I'm known for my thoughts, Craig, and I'm paid for my thoughts. Wow. Yep. Carry on. His confidence has gone up since the intern days. That's your fault. After the, we like to call

it in the Weaver household, the 2021 Simpsons debacle. After that happened, After that happened, I said, I'll come out guns blazing every time in these epilogues. No, with Teddy, we didn't do a biography on Benjamin Harrison before his episode, in part because him and a lot of other presidents, they don't have quite the stories that TR does in his repertoire there. Yeah, that's putting it mildly. Putting it mildly.

But also, you have to understand who TR is as a person to understand him as a president because who he is as a person actually influences who he is as a president, if that makes sense. And it seems like in a lot more of a way than other presidents. I mean, I'm sure that that's the case for a lot of people, but it just seems so pronounced with him. Blatantly with TR. This is something that in your edits of the Strenuous Life episode, you really focused on, and I think it's a phenomenal point is that he doesn't like bullies as a kid. And so he doesn't like bullies growing

up. It's not like a, well, my policy is anti civil service reform or pro civil service reform, because this is an important policy. No, I don't like bullies. And as Teddy says in one of his speeches, as with nations, so with people. That the nation needs to be run on a basis of, well, dishonesty is wrong if I tell you a lie, so why should we allow corporations or other countries or anyone to act dishonestly? So, yeah.

I mean, should we just hit stop? Zach, I think you just hit it on the head, man. That really does sum up TR. And I think that's what sets him apart so much. Not to be smirch, you know. Benjamin Harrison. Other presidents. I was trying to remember. Which one did you reference? William Henry Harrison. you know what have you but teddy he only becomes president initially as we know because will mckinley's assassinated he is not the type of person that wins with the party we know that he

would piss off the party bosses mark hannah calls him that damned cowboy exactly right so this is a guy who is i don't mean this in in a cynical way because I really try to not be cynical, but he's frankly too honest to get into some spaces in life. And if it weren't for that occurrence of. Certainly he's too honest for Gilded Age politics. Yes. Which is notorious. I don't mean that as like a knock on Teddy. I mean that as a virtue that you wouldn't expect someone who is that honest to be able to, as you're pointing out, right, to be able to succeed in Gilded Age politics. historians don't do well with counterfactuals, but it is difficult to imagine an America without TR. In the same way it's difficult to imagine an America without a Lincoln

or a Frederick Douglass or a George Washington. Or Benjamin Harrison. Or William Henry Harrison. We kind of do have an America without William and Mary oh wow tip a canoe and Tyler tips more William there's a National Park Service employee signed at something to do with his former house

right now that was a big month big WHH fan out there just makes me think of that Parks and Rec episode there's that one where they're trying to find historical artifacts or something

that links William Henry Harrison to this part that they want to make a national park or something. And they're just grasping at all the straws.

Seeing everything. I'm glad we got Parks and Rec in there. Me too. But to get it back on Teddy, you're right. He doesn't like bullies.

He hates bullies. The way that he overcomes his own physical condition, right? He's scrawny. He's asthmatic. And he turns himself into this jacked boxer by the time he gets to Harvard. The dude, as you know, I appreciate, climbs the freaking Matterhorn. That is an incredible feat for anyone. The fact that he comes from being someone who is not physically gifted. It's like he willed that into existence for himself.

I'll be honest. One thought I had a few times, I'm glad this worked out for Teddy. I would be mildly afraid that some might listen and be like, oh, right. So I can just will my way out of some of my medical conditions. I don't know that that works. I don't know that you should always take your health advice from Theodore Roosevelt. I mean, to some degree, sure, perhaps just, we'll just avoid getting into this space. But I mean, I was degree, sure, perhaps just we'll just avoid getting into the space. But I mean, I was just absolutely impressed with him. And that sort of I will do attitude, it follows him into politics. And I mean, his personal life, geez, having his mother and his wife die.

I couldn't listen to that part. I had to like stop part of the way through and like go and actually watch something happy yeah and then come back and finish listening because i was like nope i can't yeah a listener let me know that was uh that it was a playful message saying thanks for making me almost crash as i tried to drive through my tears. Yeah. Thanks for that. If that was a book that we had written and had like tried to submit to a publisher, I think they would have rejected it. For being too obvious?

For being too obvious. Right. Because. That can't happen. His mother and wife die on the day that his wife gives birth on Valentine's Day, which is the fourth anniversary of when they got engaged. And he gets the news while everyone's cheering for him because he's such a great guy. Like he's storybook, man.

That would have been rejected. Teddy Roosevelt is, he's storybook. He really is. I mean, I don't say that in a romanticizing sort of way as though he doesn't have his flaws and his imperfections like everyone does. But the life that this man lives. Lives, yes. He is larger than life. I'm asthmatic.

I'll overcome it. I'm suffering with grief. I will go to the badlands and reinvent myself and go from elite New Yorker. To rugged cowboy. Yeah. To rugged cowboy. Yeah. To damned cowboy. And there we have a repeat of the boxer that we met in Harvard, right? Now, these were many episodes that didn't make it into the main feed, but we covered

his, go ahead, Zach. Is his boxing episode? There's this story with his future wife watching him box at Harvard and TD then turning into Teddy, starting to become Teddy. If you have the opportunity, dear listener, to look up the picture of him in the Harvard Boxing Club, he is a handsome young man. Those TR mutton chops. Oh, he's pulling them off. They're a sight to behold. Zach's, you know, totally unbiased opinion.

In my unbiased opinion, TR is a very handsome historical figure, second only to William Jennings Bryan. Oh, jeez. Kelsey, check your timer. No, the dude looks like he's an underwear model. I know the photo you're talking about. Oh, 100%. He's sitting there, shirt off, his hands kind of crossed. He's got this cool look on his face.

Oh, he's got the smolder, man. Like, he's too cool for this picture. All the way. He's doing blue steel. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And he's not even trying. That's the thing.

And that's when the camera exploded. And you would think that this young asthmatic boy has turned himself into a good boxer by that picture. And then he gets into the ring. He gets cracked across the face. The other guy who's boxing is just punching the heck out of him. And there's this one part where right after the round ends, his opponent punches TR. And the crowd starts to boo his opponent. And Teddy, black eye, blood just streaming down, raises his hand to the crowd and is like, no, he didn't know the round was over yet.

Don't boo him. It's all right. It's fine. And then goes back to his corner. And again, this is Teddy's sense of fair play, right? Like, yeah, he's not going to let somebody take crap. Exactly. For something that wasn't their fault.

Even if this is the guy who just cracked him in the face. Who's beating the hell out of him. Yes. That's what's supposed to happen. Yeah, because it is what's supposed to happen. So again, we're seeing the pain that this man can withstand. Right? I mean, that's the sort of guy who reinvents his body.

Right? Who's like, yeah, I have asthma. No, well, Matterhorn anyway. And goes out to the badlands and in in that space he's in a bar and uh a drunken bully comes up calls him four eyes tells teddy he is going to buy him a drink the dude pulls his revolvers on roosevelt i mean i just i try to put myself in his situation. Imagine you're out by yourself, friends, doesn't matter. There you are. You're at Chili's.

You're just sitting there, beer in front of you, what have you. Someone walks up to you, pulls a gun out and says, you're going to buy me a drink while insulting you. I'd probably buy the drink. How many? And there's Teddy. Cool. He says, well,'s Teddy. Cool, he says. Well, if I got to, I got to. Boom!

Cracks him in the face. The dude's guns go off as he's falling. I mean, yeah, this is not the safest play either, right? But, yeah, he just totally knocks out his bully. If someone called me four eyes, I'd walk away. I'm scared. So, look, I think that thus far what we've kind of turned into is establishing Teddy digs deeper than 99.9% of the world and he doesn't tolerate a bully. So let's go ahead and take a break there.

Then we'll come back and build on those fine points. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? there, then we'll come back and build on those fine points. I sit down with NerdWallet's team of nerds, personal finance experts in credit cards, banking, investing, and more. We answer your real-world money questions and break down the latest personal finance news. The nerds will give you the clarity you need by cutting through the clutter and misinformation in today's world of personal finance. We don't promote get-rich-quick schemes or hype unrealistic side hustles. Instead, we offer practical knowledge that you can apply in your everyday life. You'll learn about strategies to help you build your wealth, invest wisely, shop for financial products, and plan for major life events. And you'll walk away with the

confidence you need to ensure that your money is always working as hard as you are. So turn to the nerds to answer your real-world money questions and get insights that can help you make the smartest financial decisions for your life. Listen to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. When Johan Rall received the letter on Christmas Day 1776, he put it away to read later. Maybe he thought it was a season's greeting and wanted to save it for the fireside. But what it actually was was a warning delivered to the Hessian colonel, letting him know that General George Washington was crossing the Delaware and would soon attack his forces. The next day, when Raw lost the Battle of Trenton and died from two colonial Boxing Day musket balls, the letter was found, unopened in his vest pocket.

As someone with 15,000 unread emails in his inbox, I feel like there's a lesson there. Oh well, this is The Constant, a history of getting things wrong. I'm Mark Chrysler. Every episode, we look at the bad ideas, mistakes, and accidents that misshaped our world. Find us at ConstantPodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back to Teddy, the I don't suffer bullies president. The rough rider. The rough rider. You know, his whole hating of bullies thing, I think that really comes out in his attitude with corporations. 100%. Yeah. As we talk and think about, again, nuance, right? Getting into his actual words,

that is for me what I see in his speeches. And I feel like that came out in the episodes from the quotes that we have from Roosevelt, his annual message to Congress, that sort of thing. And even his whole framing, right, of his three C's, as historians will later put it, that's he didn't come up with that terminology. But again, we've got the corporate regulation, consumer protection, his conservationism. But as he puts it, the square deal. And he doesn't invent that phrase. We'll go ahead and acknowledge that again. But he definitely, it becomes. It becomes the view of Teddy. He treats people squarely. He treats them fairly. And that's his big thing, right? It's no bullies. He has things to say about the corporate world. He has things to say about corrupt union leaders as well. He does not want to see a bully anywhere. Which I think is actually one of the things that I like about him. He doesn't let people really influence that. It doesn't matter if they're these super rich people that

are like, I will donate lots of money to you if you don't do this. Right. He doesn't care. He gets donations from Standard Oil. He gets donations from J. Pierre Popp Morgan. And, you know, part of it is that he's the Republican candidate. Republicans at this point have kind of started to really diverge and have a difference. I don't think this was Mark Hanna. I'm pretty sure it was a different Republican, but the comment was made after they donated hundreds of thousands. And again, this is hundreds of thousands in the early 20th century, right? Hundreds of thousands to his presidential campaign. The dude starts taking shots at the trusts, right? He's the trust buster. Now he's actually not the biggest trust buster president,

but he's the one who initiates it. He inaugurates it. And dang, it's gonna eat at me, but you can Google this. You can look it up if you really wanna know who said it. But one of them said roughly, if not spot on quote, we bought the son of a bitch and he refused to stay bought.

Because in their minds, that's what they did. We donated. We all understand. No one's saying it, but the understanding. This is the status quo. Yeah. You're going to support us because we support you. And he gets in the office like, thanks for the money.

I don't know you crap. Northern Securities. Sounds good, but no. See you the money. I don't know you crap. Northern Securities. Sounds good, but no. See you in court. Yeah. Can we shift gears to conservationism a bit? Yes. Absolutely.

So the cold open of episode 114, it is such a simple story and it's not terribly action packed and yet it's one of my favorite TR moments because it's such a, it's an insight into him. Yes. Again. Into how he sees the world. Right. So Pelican Island in Florida, people hunt there and hunting is going through a major reformation itself in this era. era there as species are being frankly uh hunted to death extinct extinction i'm not an expert on the history of hunting so i won't go too deep into this but both externally and internally within the

hunting community there's kind of this like oh we actually need to think about this and that's part of where we end up with some of the laws that are actually supported by hunters where they have to go you know, buy tags, tags, stamps. It goes towards conservation because they realize like, oh, this we're not going to,

we should probably not hunt all of the animals out of existence, but we're definitely not there on right. Oh, the, the image. I mean, this is where I do wish somehow we could put photos in a podcast. It obviously doesn't work,

but the, it's a haunting image from the 1880s of this just massive pyramid of buffalo skulls. Terrifying, frankly. Nothing better illustrates, right? That is a photo that's worth far more than a thousand words. But all that said, Pelican Island, again, Teddy, here you've got the elite New Yorker.

And hey, Central Park, people go watch birds. I'm not saying that you can't be that and like birds, but who is this guy, right? I like to write history books in my downtime. Also, I love birds. Also, I love to watch birds when I'm not being chased by a big bear. Listeners out there who love birds, you will be impressed to know that a lot of the conservation episode, the bird sounds that are in there, they are in the script not as bird sound,

but Townsend solitaire or the specific type of bird because Teddy knows what they are. So, and this actually, it does kind of get even to the efforts we make on pronunciation. We were able to find an excellent recording of the brown pelican. And we needed to purchase that. So we specifically purchased that sound and brought it in. We could not find a lass. The Townsend Solitaire.

No, I'm sure it's out there somewhere, but in a perfect world, if we had like three months, I'm sure we'd have gotten that. But we couldn't track one of those down, but we did seek out and find. The Brown Pelican. Well, we tried on both. We were just able to succeed with the Brown Pelican.

And we found a kind of more generic sound that was pretty darn close. Close to the Townsend Solitaire. You know who would listen and be able to know what the difference is? Teddy. Teddy. Teddy. Yeah.

Theodore Roosevelt Jr. Okay. Well, all that said, I just appreciate you brought the Jr. in there. Right. His response, it shows the way that he doesn't look for permission to do things. I loved that. In the Constitution. Like.

He looks for prohibitions. He's like. That's his concern. Is there a law against this? No. Can I do this? Perfect. Then I'm doing it.

There's nothing that says you can't. Excellent. Sounds like permission to me. My favorite story in that episode is even if there is a law against it, the law doesn't go into effect for 10 days. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. So I'm just going to do it now for the next 10 days and work night and day and have my staff work night and day so that when you make the law, when I signed the law, it practically is ineffectual.

The Midnight Forest story. Yep. That was with an agricultural bill. Yeah, it was an agricultural. No, that was hilarious. Well, I like a lot of this bill. I don't like that part of the bill. Hmm.

Looks like I have 10 days for the constitution. I guess we'll burn the midnight oil. You can't make any- Everyone, make another pot of coffee. Here we go. You can't make any new forests in these states. Well, I'm going to make some new forests in those states before this takes effect. I do think that this is an interesting thing to bring up when we think about some of these really impactful big presidents. In my mind, there's a distinction in life

between, to not sound too much like I'm giving a TED talk now, but there are managers and there are leaders. Managers, in my mind, they keep the machine moving, right? They understand what the rules are, what their role is. And a leader will have an actual vision and take things in a certain direction. Wartime presidents, we see more of that, partly because of the war brings urgency that just isn't there otherwise. They have to.

Yeah, there's no choice. So, I mean, Lincoln, FDR. They have to. here you know i mean he is less constitutional in his approach much less i mean that yeah i'm that's i may be putting that mildly that's generous okay the quote um mark twain oh okay the mark twain quote that was even the one i was going for but that was great right yeah what's your favorite tr doesn't care about the constitution quote you share yours that feels like strong language but honda wilson doesn't care uh when uh plays fast yes that he does the 1902 coal strike right where he's being confronted by um a congressman who is you know worried about property rights with uh with the coal strike in pennsylvania and he's saying well you know what about the constitution and teddy's response the constitution was written for the people,

not the people for the constitution. That's, yeah, those are some strong words. It tells you where he stands. And for me, I found myself kind of contrasting that in my head with the far more legal mind of the lawyer turned president, Abraham Lincoln, where you see him very methodically, carefully, like with the 13th amendment, he, you know, he, he's not willing to leave something out in executive order. He's always thinking about, okay, this can be undone if it isn't done in this way. He says bad laws need to be followed to expose that they're bad laws. For me, it was interesting to think about the two very strong but very different presidents. You did refer to Lincoln as the lawyer who became a president. I will say

Teddy Roosevelt did go to law school. And it was like, you know what? And it was bored. Right. Right. He's like, well, I could do this or I could write a book about the war of 1812. I could. I'm bored here. I don't want to learn about rules all day when I could go climb the Matterhorn. And that right there, again, kind of sums up. Yeah. Yeah, that speaks to Teddy. I think that encapsulates kind of some key aspects of him as president. We do still need to talk about those events abroad, though. Yes.

So let's go ahead and take a quick break, and then we can come back and talk Panama and Great White Fleet and all sorts of fun things. And welcome back. So, foreign policy time. TR and that big stick. That is the Navy. I never realized that that's what he was talking about when he said big stick. I mean, effectively.

Yeah. Because that's the world that we're talking about. No. No offense to those in the Army. This is the early. Let's not open that can of worms. In come the sharks and jets here. But no, it is the early... Let's not open that can of worms. We're... It's not the... The sharks and jets here, but no, it's the early 1900s

and the United States is, you know, well, part of the isolationism that exists in that area is because, well, Atlantic,

Pacific Oceans. A little isolated. A little isolated. Yeah. It's kind of easy to be isolationist when you are isolated. We have two major neighbors, right? A little isolated? wrapped up in it, those massive empires are, well, frankly, it's Europe, then Japan, and increasingly so the United States, which is the world's largest exporter of goods. We, previous to this volume, talked about overseas expansion, which was basically we're going to jack colonies from Spain.

And of course, Teddy was a part of that. So the Spanish-American War, and frankly, it rolls right into explaining his thoughts on Latin America, that same idea that we saw in the Philippines with quote unquote benevolent assimilation, the idea that the United States can do empire abroad, unlike the evil Europeans who still have monarchies. America is so star-spangled awesome that we can run an empire. And we're going to be so much better at it. Better than the old world. And when we do, we will elevate people with ideas of liberty. We will put people down. Exactly.

And of course, that theory does not translate in practice. So that's also where it connects to the Monroe Doctrine as discussed in the episode. We got the Roosevelt Corollary where he basically says, it connects to the Monroe Doctrine as discussed in the episode. We got the Roosevelt Corollary where he basically says, you know what, Monroe Doctrine, we can make that stronger. We can put steroids in there. That's right. Let's take that a step further. We can now interfere in domestic issues only if there's a problem. But of course, the issue is who gets to decide if there's a problem. There's course, the issue is who gets to decide if there's a problem? Well, there's always a problem somewhere.

So and so that that's where we get to Panama as as the point. Well, you have two narratives. Colombia is looking at this saying we have some separatists and then you've got people in Panama who are saying

we want to break away specifically because we want a canal. Well, that's that doesn't exactly make the united states which wants a canal a neutral party and it's definitely have a vested interest a little bit a little bit so you know i mean reading through teddy's thoughts it's clear that he genuinely believed in the morality of what he was doing, but nonetheless, that's not bulletproof. Anyhow, the Panama Canal, carving a pathway between the two continents, not to dismiss any of the issues in terms of how the United States comes to have that power to build it, but this is one this is, it's one of the wonders of the world. It's a huge undertaking.

It's a massive undertaking. So much life is lost in building this thing. You don't want to point out, Zach, that that was mostly under the French. I felt like you would jump on this, right? About 20,000 of the 25,000. Not to downplay another 5,000 lives, but. But it just so happens when the French were in charge.

It felt like a moment for you. We're moving on. We're moving on. I mean, having this, this thing be entirely self-sustaining where the water being held within the dams and as things flow that has generating the power all these electric engines that are i mean it's the freaking early 1900s and you've got 1500 small electric motors stuff like that always just boggles my mind because i sit there and i think oh yeah that's not that big of a deal but i think think about it now right but not having access to all the major construction tools and factories making like with tiny robot arms that make all these intricate little parts right like it's just

amazing to me the things that people are able to accomplish they're like that's what we want, we're going to do it. It's fun to me to do an American history podcast because for whatever it is, luck or whatever you want to call it, that the United States becomes a country and American history is right around this explosion through all of human history, for all of human history. The United States is kind of at an inflection point in terms of technology that we in like the early days of the podcast you're talking about the erie canal and like water wheels and here we are 100 some odd episodes later and we're talking about carving a path through a continent for gigantic metal ships to go through. Yeah. Yeah.

It boggles the mind. And the technology behind it. I mean, it blows me away when I take in the idea of 300 to 750 ton steel doors, the gates. That's actually a more specific number than I gave in the episode. And they've is really an era of peaked militarism. That the empires of the world are a little bit like the apocryphal literary quote attributed to Alexander the Great that he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer. That's kind of what you've got with the world empires, and they're about to turn on each other. World War I, you know, it's not just because Franz Ferdinand is assassinated.

What? That's not the only thing that sparked this major war? I thought everyone was chill. Everything was great. Listen to this. Cal Suprise. that was terrible that no no it was it was that was good it was real good no it was i did not roll my eyes i don't have that much control over the left eye so okay my bad. He rolled his eye. So, point being, in terms of thinking about Teddy, you know, again, with the quote unquote big stick, he's showing the world, hey, back off. Don't mess with the United States. Everybody's kind of flexing right now. Things are very tense with Japan. And really, it's a brilliant play in terms of his diplomacy. But at the same time, it's very much a military flex. And it makes sense in this era where there is so, I mean, the HMS Dreadnought has just been invented.

Other nations are scrambling to match Britain's massive battleship. People are tense. Yes. Right now. Yeah. Things are tense. I mean, this is also the same time. I mean, the Great White Fleet takes off at the end of 1907. This is the same year

that Russia has jumped in on the Entente Cordiale. We'll say it that way for you, Kelsey. Great. Great. L'Entente Cordiale between Britain and France. So, you know, we have the sides that are going to turn into World War I very much in motion. All right. Fine. I'm done with foreign policy. What were those other things you two wanted to talk about? Just that we apologized to anybody that was eating during that consumer regulation episode. I gave so much warning on that one.

There were lots of heads up was given. And a credit. Oh, Airship did an amazing job with those sound effects. That's Molly. She did so good. Phenomenal job. Molly always does a phenomenal job. She always does so good.

That just was... That was a fun one to research. It's rare that you find an article entitled the pig and the privy when you're researching for htds episodes so when you do it's like a golden nugget you gotta gotta use it and poor poor upton sinclair i don't know if there's ever been someone who's been more charged about a cause and more effectively mobilize people to do something that isn't what he wanted he actually wanted remember when we were talking about the people voting the delegates voting for james garfield and how he did the republican convention

and how he didn't want it and he's like no no no no no no and they're like no sorry you have to sit down we're gonna keep voting and everyone's just like 21 for garfield um and they're like, no, sorry, you have to sit down. We're going to keep voting. And everyone's just like, 21 for Garfield. And they just keep voting for him. That's proverbially Upton Sinclair. Okay, so this book is about food regulations. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's about the working class. Okay, sit down, Upton.

This book is about food regulations. Well, and, oh, there's definitely some of that i mean it's not like it was lost right yeah and that's where teddy and again perhaps another point to highlight how he he is no william jennings bryant william jennings bryant isn't as far out as that right but uh where he's like okay this book casts some serious, but it's written by a socialist. So we're definitely going to do our own independent research. And of course the takeaway is, well, it's kind of gross.

Let's regulate the food industry. Upton, we thank you for that point. And we're done. We're done here. Eugene Debs, you and Upton can go sit down. You guys go. thank you for this contribution we're making the fda there there we are okay um hey as we wrap up we we need to say a goodbye to teddy surely no to you zach oh to me i mean a little bit to teddy too but not as oh

teddy we are we are so not done with Teddy. I mean, we're done with episodes that are uber Teddy-centric. One of the main sources on which we drew for all of the Teddy stuff is Edmund Morris's three-volume biography set about Theodore Roosevelt. Just so you know about how rich this man's life is, this entire volume and previous volumes where we've brought Teddy up, those are the first two books. There's a whole nother thick book about Theodore Roosevelt that stuff we haven't even talked about yet. Yeah. And of course, I mean, it's not like we covered everything in the biography. Yeah, no, no, no.

Yeah, it was but a source. But don't you go dodging on me, Zach. Okay. Zach, after, geez, what month did you start interning? I technically, go ahead. Do you remember better than I? December of 2020 is when we officially started. My goodness.

Yeah. My goodness. I walked back from the interview with Greg with the autumn leaves falling. I remember that. So it was November, December of 2020. It was such a moment in life. The foliage. The good old days.

The good old days. Back before his hair turned gray. Oh yeah, because Zach's gray. The good old days of 2020. Hey man, you're going to Harvard Law. Yes. Like a boss. Yes, I will be attending Harvard Law School starting this fall.

I mean, now why you are accepting this offer from Harvard as opposed to staying at HTDS is just, I mean, actually it's mind boggling. Yes. But, but. It's beyond me. Yeah. I don't understand it. I feel like you flipped Yes. But, but. It's beyond me. Yeah. I don't understand it. I feel like you flipped a coin and, you know, it was close. I said, HTDS, HLS, history that doesn't suck, Harvard Law School.

And it came up tails. Sorry. In all seriousness, man. So proud of you. Thank you very much to the listeners for forgiving my consistent, persistent Simpsons references and unbridled praise of William Jennings Bryan, the greatest loser in American history. And someone you adore. And someone I adore. It's, yeah, I mean, you know, you'll leave the biggest void since Josh and CL here,

man. But I'll look forward to still seeing you, still hear from Josh and CL as busy as they are in their very different lives and whatnot, but

go crush it, man. I know you will. Thank you very much. I feel we need to say goodbye to Zach's mom. We do. She's a bigger part of this than I am.

I think so. I think so. So to Zach's mom. We do. She's a bigger part of this than I am. I think so. I think so. We would be remiss. Zach's mom, thank you. Thank you, Zach's mom. Goodbye. Goodbye. All right.

Okay, well, with that, next time we'll be diving deeper into the progressive era. So we'll pick up there and catch you two weeks. Beth Chris Jansen, Bob Drazovich, Brian Goodson, Bronwyn Cohen, Carrie Begill, Charles and Shirley Clendenin, Charlie Magis, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, David DeFazio, David Rifkin, Denki, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moods, Jennifer Magnolia, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppock, Joe Dobis, John Frugal-Dougal, John Boovey, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Radlavich, Thank you. Melanie Jan, Nick Cafferill, Noah Hoff, Owen Sedlak, Paul Goringer, Randy Guffrey, Reese Humphries-Wadsworth, Rick Brown,

Sarah Trawick, Samuel Lagasa, Sharon Thiesen, Sean Baines, Steve Williams, Creepy Girl, Tisha Black, and Zach Jackson.