History That Doesn't Suck - 130: Russia: From the Great War to Revolution with Deputy Provost Kat Brown

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

To say Russia had a difficult go of it during World War I would be a gross understatement. Millions of dead, lost territory, soldiers charging into battle without guns, starvation, a less than savory holy man influencing the Czar and Czarina, and of course, revolution! How do we even begin to wrap our heads around all of that, let alone contemplate the impact on the United States? Simple: we talk it out with Greg’s UVU colleague, Deputy Provost Kat Brown. A historian and expert on Russia, Kat joins Greg for a chat that tackles all of the above in one jam-packed episode.  ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, dear listener, and welcome to Conflicted, a podcast that tells stories of the Islamic past and present to help you make sense of the world today. Hosted by me, Thomas Small, author and filmmaker, and my good friend, Eamon Dean, an ex-Al-Qaeda jihadi turned MI6 spy, Conflicted is prepping its fifth season, which is coming to you very soon. And in the meantime, you can sign up to our conflicted community. Subscribe to Conflicted wherever you get your podcasts. Rome. What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen and Jenny from Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy, perspective. Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and as in the

classroom, my goal here is to make rigorously researched history come to life as your storyteller. Each episode is the result of laborious research with no agenda other than making the past come to life as you learn. If you'd like to help support this work, receive ad-free episodes, bonus content, and other exclusive perks, I invite you to join the HTDS membership program. Sign up for a seven-day free trial today at htdspodcast.com membership or click the link in the episode notes. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I am very excited to have a special guest join me today, the illustrious Dr. Kat Brown, a colleague of mine from Utah Valley

University. Kat, care to say hello? Hello. Perfect. An excellent hello, by the way. Thank you. To brag about you for just a second. Kat is, again, a PhD. Her work was completed at Bowling Green State. She focused on Russian and U.S. policy history. So there alone, we know that you're brilliant. Going on from there, you've been at UVU for a little while. 20 years. 20 years? Yeah. My goodness. Time flies when you're having fun. Exactly. Yes. So in that time, you've also been the chair of history and political science. Yeah. And you are now the deputy provost of the university.

Yes. It is a very cool title. What on earth, for those who are not in academia, what does it mean to be a provost? What should the listener pick up from that? Sure. The provost is the chief the listener pick up from that? ultimately the policies that pertain to faculty and academics, oversees the faculty generally, and is really in charge of the quality of the programming of the university. So it's low stakes.

Low stakes. No big deal. No big deal, yes. And then my deputiness comes from not just having the gold star, but also having the ability to sign documents that others in academic affairs can't sign if he's not around. Right. So you are the right hand woman. Yes. In the provost's office. Yes.

Okay. But today we get to bring you back to the classroom, so to speak, and get some Russia on. Looking forward to it. As am I. So to kind of fill everybody in, our last episode gave us a quick overview of World War I from its beginning up to the end of 1916, kind of teasing 1917, queuing up US entry.

That was super fast though. I'm very happy with the episode, but I realized, oh, there were sentences that I wrote and thought to myself, oh, that could be a whole episode. But no, contain myself. This is U.S. history. Can't go there. All that said, the Eastern Front, I feel like you could help us understand Russia so much more.

So I'm really grateful to have your expertise here today to flesh out some things. Happy to do it. All right. Well, let's go ahead and get to it. 19th century Russia, Russia going into World War I. As Winston Churchill would later say that he called Russia, I'm sure you remember this quote, it is a riddle wrapped in a, is it a mystery, right? Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Yeah. Right. We got mystery and an enigma in there somewhere. I think that is probably a decent summation of how much most people know about 19th century into 20th century Russia. So for the typical HTDS listener trying to wrap their head around what Russia even is going into World War I, where should we start?

What are some things we should know? So Russia at the time is the largest nation in the world, ultimately. It is huge across Eurasia. So it starts really in Poland and goes all the way east to what is now the Korean Peninsula. So it's enormous. Yeah. How many time zones is that? Oh my gosh. Do you know? I think 13, 16, something enormous like that. And then it goes south, right? So it goes as far south as what at the time was Persia to China or Mongolia.

I mean, it is a massive country. And to think all of that, I mean, you've got the British Empire, the French Empire territory that's controlled around the globe, but this is all one connected mass. That really makes Russia kind of unique. It is because it puts places like Afghanistan right at its front door. So you have the British who really want to be in Afghanistan, want to keep it as they're moving northward from India. And Russia's empire is feeling like, oh, no, this is really our front doorstep.

So Britain, no. And I think your listeners may be familiar with the great game and how Europe is competing for all this territory in Africa and Asia. And Russia is there, not as big into the formerly unexplored European areas, but they're looking at places like Persia. They're looking at places like the Korean Peninsula, Afghanistan, and certainly the Caucasus. And they've got their eye on Turkey as Turkey is declining. Right, yes. The Ottoman Empire. The sick man of Europe.

Yes. Yep, those Balkans. Yeah. They get you every time. They do. And that Pan-Slavism, right? Please, yeah, let's talk about that a bit. They get you every time. They do. And that pan-Slavism. Please. Yeah, let's talk about that a bit.

So the Russian autocracy really saw itself as the big brother for all Slavs in Europe. And so as the Austrians are looking closer at the Serbians and the Bulgarians and others, you know, the Russian government is looking at that going, no, no, no, they're our little brothers. Just like there's pan-Germanism, we are a brotherhood of Slavs. And yeah, you got to keep your mitts off. It's nice how that all fits well for empire building, isn't it? Yeah, nice and clean. Did that predate much of the 19th century nationalism in Russia? Or is it blossoming and growing that Pan-Slavism idea right along with German nationalism? Right along with the German, the Pan-Germanism. Okay. So they're developing in tandem. Okay.

All right. So we've got this massive empire. Listeners might recall that they had a little kerfuffle with the Japanese early on. That didn't go so well for Russia. No, it didn't. And that was a surprise for them as well as the West. So why? Why did it surprise them? I think that because Russia had done so well in the Napoleonic Wars, which, well, in air quotes, right? It's easy to do well when you force your enemy to have the logistic trains of potentially thousands of miles or certainly over a thousand miles.

But I think the West really expected Russia to be a lot more militarily adept than the Japanese were. And it's grounded in racism. It's grounded in misunderstandings with Japan and Russia. And so when Russia got majorly defeated, I mean, awful. If it was a sports team, it would have been a massive spanking. Right. I think the West was really surprised. And the fact that the U.S. came in then and brokered the peace deal between Russia and Japan really showed how far Russia had disappointed the West. So, I feel like this kind of takes us right into Russia's failure to industrialize. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Is Russia fully grasping how far behind they are in

industrializing? Yes. I'm shaking my head yes, which no one can hear. That's right. Well, maybe if you shake your head hard enough. It might dislodge something. Sure, sure. So, yeah, I mean, again, Russia is massive, right? To get a rail line from one end of the empire, from the Polish end of the empire, to the Korean end of the empire, we're talking thousands upon thousands of miles. And in a country that does not have a well-developed mining system, smelting system, all of those industrial basics, it's really, really hard to industrialize something of that size. So even looking at just the eastern side of Russia, going from the Urals to the west to Poland, right, we're talking tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of miles of rail line that would be necessary. And the Russians couldn't do it because they were an agricultural producer, which doesn't make a lot of money. And so they started borrowing money or inviting investment from the French investors, German investors, British investors, which then tied them more closely

to all of the issues going on in Central and Western Europe. Ah, it sucks them in. It sucks them in. So just to kind of make a comparison point that I think will resonate with people who've listened to a number of episodes here, the Transcontinental Railroad, I mean, that was a huge undertaking for us. It was less than 2,000 miles, though. And so you just, I believe you used the number 10,000 as just a general, not if you're talking all of the feeder lines that need to go from cities of any substantial size into the main lines, we are talking tens of thousands of miles of rail line necessary. Trans-continental railroad times five and in a nation that doesn't have the industrial movement that had already been in place in the United States.

Yeah, they were kind of screwed then. Yeah. It would be a good, nice academic way to put it. Yeah, that's a great academic way to put it. I'll put that in the next paper I write. I think that'll be the right way to express it. They didn't have the chemicals. I mean, they were borrowing as much as they could in terms of technology from other areas,

but it just wasn't fast enough. And because the ruling elites were so focused on being ruling elites, the investment necessary was just not taking place. So, focused on being ruling elites. Can we nerd out a little bit on the... I love that enthusiasm. I haven't even said what, but you're game. Whatever it's going to be, yes, let's nerd out on it. Perfect. So 1789, going back to the French Revolution.

These ideas are growing, spreading. The irony of, of course, Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte kind of becoming the mouthpiece to share ideas. He's crushing at home. They've spread throughout Europe. We have the failed revolutions of 1848. We touched on those briefly in the causes of World War I episode. Russia, you do have leaders that are basically successfully keeping that stuff, like keeping the lid on the pot as it's trying to boil over?

I mean, there are always a few things that flare up, right? The peasants will get angry and start murdering the landlords in various areas. And not to put it lightly, because that takes money and time to then stop those local revolts, right? But there's also these weird series of rules in Russia where the ruling elites cannot dirty themselves with industry. That is something... The French did that same game. Yes. Yes. Right. And so that also keeps them from investing their wealth into the country. Oh my gosh, that's so backwards. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it does allow them to go on trips to Europe and to buy great jewelry you can still find online and things like that. But it doesn't do much in creating a railway line from Moscow to St. Petersburg. Which is what you need if you're going to keep up with the industrializing world. Exactly. Okay. So here we are on the eve of World War I. We've got these alliance systems in place. Why?

And I suppose we've just kind of hit on the answer, but here's the softball. Germany is ready to mobilize. It's got its Schlieffland plan ready to do its KO knockout in France and swing back to Russia. Germany can mobilize so rapidly. It thinks it can take out, I mean, I do just kind of want to let listeners absorb this for a second. Germany's convinced it can literally conquer a great power before Russia can basically get its pants on and out to the

front. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a good reason Germany thought that because it was kind of true. So to get troops from, let's say, Moscow or St. Petersburg to the front, remember, they have to go through Poland, past Poland, through Ukraine, right? All of those places to get to where Germany is. And that can take weeks. Oh, my gosh. Because, again, no, like, no rails, like, at all? Very limited rails. Not enough to move an army.

So that area of Europe was, yes. Yeah. Because as you move the army, how are you going to move the food that feeds the army? How are you going to move the fuel? So those supply lines. How are you going to move the horses? Right? So, yeah, those supply lines will then

quickly burden the... It's not that there are a few railways. There are a lot of railways. It's just that Russia's so big in terms of square miles, it's not a lot of railways, if that makes sense. Oh, 100%. I mean, and it's... Let's see. can I get my 1980s pop culture references right? I believe, what was the line in The Princess Bride? Never start a land war in Eurasia. Yes. But only second to that is this. Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Right. Right, right, as he drops over dead. But there's just so much land. Yeah. And it's not easy land, right? Some of this land, especially in the spring and early summer, can be subject to rains that just turn it into muck. Literally horses can drown in the muck. You're kidding me. No. And it's not like, like, we're talking muck that is over a foot deep easily.

I mean, to go all 80s macabre again. So now we're to the never-ending story. Horses are quite literally just disappearing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Kat, you're painting a vivid image for me. That's clearly speaking to my 80s child mind here.

Yes. Wow. And this, not that, I mean, this is so many steps removed from what we're focused on. So I'll be brief on it. But it also kind of highlights how does how does Napoleon himself? He can conquer all of Europe. But what can he not conquer? Russia.

Russia. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So we've we've got this massive empire that's super sucking at industrializing. Germany's convinced that they can basically just sit it out. Obviously, I'm being a little hyperbolic there.

A bit. But they're going to just go square France away, swing back over, all good. Getting deeper into the hierarchy. So, our dear friend, Grigory Rasputin, what's the role he plays? Where's the church, the Orthodox church come into this? How much power does the Tsar Nicholas have? Our boy, Nicky. Our boy, Nicky. That's right. Can you paint a little bit of an image for us here?

So Nicholas II was really not known for his leadership skills. I'm sorry. That's like, oh, thank you. At one point, Wilhelm... Understatement of the day. Yes, understatement of the day. At one point, Wilhelm said of Nicholas, Wilhelm, the Kaiser of Germany, that he would have been a better turnip farmer. And it was really hard to find anyone who would argue with that, at least quietly. Right.

He was a very pleasant man. He loved his family a lot. But he was just not suited to running an empire at the beginning of the 20th century. An autocratic empire, no less. An autocratic empire that was lagging. This is not a ceremonial. No. Yeah.

No, he did have some really good choices at the beginning of his sardom, so to speak, like Sergei Vita, who was excellent at seeing what Russia needed to do to industrialize. But once he was upset with his ministers and dismissed them or the ministers died in office, not assassinated, just we're not talking Stalin here. Go ahead and clarify that. Sure, sure. But once they just retired or left or what have you, he just didn't have the right people to replace them. And as the war dragged on, it became a lot harder to find quality people to replace them until so much that Nicholas became his own favorite general. Oh, no. And here's this guy who, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is

my impression going back to my grad school days, but Nicholas is the guy you want as a neighbor and not as your leader. Yeah, he's more like the Ned Flanders. Yes. Oh, yeah. That is perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Hidey-ho neighbors. Oh, please don't invade me. No, he never said that. In fact, he was the one who got Germany to mobilize on the Eastern Front because he was also stubborn. And so when the Austrians said that they were going to invade Serbia, right? Nicholas is like, no, Pan-Slavism. You're going to stand down or we're going to mobilize. And then, you know, the Austrians were like, Germany, they're going to mobilize.

What do we do? Okay, we'll mobilize too. Tell them we'll mobilize too. And then if your listeners have the chance to go to the Nicky Willie papers, they'll see the mobilization that both then committed to as a matter of pride. Yeah. And so Nicholas really stupidly takes on the Germans because he refuses to stand down.

No losing face. So a stubborn Ned Flanders at the head of a massive empire. Yeah, what could go wrong? Oh, nothing. Until, yeah, until they start losing. I do want to give a shout out. The Russians did great against the Austrians. Okay, shout out noted.

But against the Germans, it just went downhill quickly. Let's go ahead and take a quick break and then get into how that went downhill. Most of you are finances. I sit down with NerdWallet's team of nerds, personal finance experts in credit cards, banking, investing, and more. We answer your real-world money questions and break down the latest personal finance news. The nerds will give you the clarity you need by cutting through the clutter and misinformation in today's world of personal finance.

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jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. And we're back. So, Kat, Dr. Brown, let's, you got it, you got it. Let's get into a war with millions, millions of deaths just for Russia. Oh, yeah. Just Russia alone.

Oh, yeah. So Russia is not only huge in land, it's huge in population. But the population is over 80% peasant, not farmer, but peasant, which means... Are we talking all the way down to serfdom? Well, serfdom is pretty much over. Okay. But the folks who used to be serfs, some of them have gone into the working class such that it is in Russia. But many of them—

I love that qualify. Most of them are still tilling the land that really—they're paying off their landowners by still tilling the land. We do not have a large landowning agricultural class in Russia at this time. And so if you can think about it, much of the attitude is, yes, this land has been given to us to farm, but it's not our land. So, just tell me if I'm wrong here. I mean, it does sound like it still has some echoes of serfdom. Yeah. I'm not trying to push that.

No, they owe money for this land, and they have to work off the money. When emancipation happened, the serfs were given access to this land, but they had to pay more than the market price for it. Oh, gosh. And some of this land is pretty nasty. Some of it's great. Sure. Right? But some of it is difficult. What they are good at is following orders. Sure. is not only the leader of all people, he's also the leader of the church. So, he is the great papa.

He will keep them safe. He will do what is necessary to protect them until they notice he doesn't. Right. Bloody Sunday didn't go so well with this. Exactly. Right. So, that was the first Russian Revolution, right? Back in 1904, 1905, where they revolted. Well, it's only been about 12 years until World War I breaks out, which, as I get older, is no time at all. Right. It really hits you there. Yeah. And so at first, the Russians are committed to this war as a people. The peasants, the workers, the elites, the soldiers. I mean, everybody is like, yes, Germany has threatened us. We're going to take it to Germany and Austria.

We are a power. But because of that lack of industrialization, it starts falling apart really quickly. And because the rule in the Russian military is peasants can't be officers. Wait, so you can have this like super competent, like brilliant soldier and there's not going to be any way to promote, to move up. No. But what he is good at is building relationships with other soldiers. Oh, yeah. You're just setting up revolution here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. But what he is good at is building relationships with other soldiers. Oh, yeah.

You're just setting up revolution here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So in 1914, everything kind of looks okay. You know, yeah, there are some defeats, some problems. But over the next few years, it just gets worse. And by worse, what I mean by starting off as bad is in 1915, 25% of Russian soldiers did not have enough military equipment, as in firepower, to go up against the Germans and the Austrians. There's a classic scene in Enemy at the Gates.

Oh, yeah. Right? Please elaborate. I know exactly what you're talking about. It is so… Right. Where an enemy at the gates is Oh, yeah. Right? Please elaborate. I know exactly what you're talking about. It is so... Right. Where an enemy at the gates is World War II. So it's wrong, but it's right for 1915 where one guy is given the rifle and the other guy is told, here's the ammunition.

When that guy is shot and drops his rifle, you go ahead and pick it up and you keep shooting. I could not imagine going into war without a freaking weapon. Maybe you'll have a sharp stick. I don't know. But it's not a good look for the military. And as that... Especially against industrialized Germany. No one's struggling to get weaponry on the other side of those lines.

No, America does not have a lend-lease program. It is sending the Russian government. So, additionally, with the size of the front, you have to think about how much coal that takes for keeping troops warm, how much coal it takes for the industry of war to continue, how much coal it takes to make the trains run, to get the troops to the front. So where is that coal that was helping out the civilian population going? It is going to the front. So now our peasants are freezing. They'll have wood stoves and things like that.

Okay. It's the cities that start to freeze. And the workers start to freeze. And when we're looking at workers, we're talking about factories that may have 50,000 workers, right? All in close proximity, many of them sleeping in barracks with each other. And word starts to spread. Workers with family who have men at the front start to hear about shortages on the front, and the soldiers start to hear about shortages at home. So everyone's terrified for each other. Yeah.

Yeah. And they're starting to wonder, when is the tide going to turn so that the war can be successful? Because they believe in it. Yeah. Yeah. And they're starting to wonder when is the tide going to turn so that the war can be successful because they believe in it. Right. Right. This is a holy war against these Western invaders. This has got to go right. And it doesn't. And so what does this say about the leadership? And over time, this really starts to fall apart. And Nicholas isn't dumb, right? He may be- Maybe too nice, right? He may be super nice, but he knows that the war is not going well.

And so he keeps trying to replace his generals. But each one is as incompetent or as corrupt as the last one. And that corruption also skims resources off the military and out of the people, the civilians, and they are getting upset, really upset. It starts to be where food is getting harder to find because it's also going to the front. And if all the peasants are at the war, right? If all the male peasants are on the front, who's farming? Who is putting in the crops? Who's taking them out?

So we start to see desertions too. People are worried about the family back home, the farm back home. Exactly. And they only leave long enough to maybe sow or to reap. Sometimes they'll go back. Sometimes they won't. But what does that do in the meantime? Yeah, you've got holes in your lines, in units. Right. And meanwhile, you've also got the minorities in the West because Russia's Western front is our Eastern front, right? Sure, sure. Yeah, we'll adjust what we mean when we say West for a second.

Exactly. You've got the Poles who are still mad at lacking independence. The poor Poles. Like, oh, they get run over constantly. I have many times in class compared them. This is, I say it with nothing but respect, but I envision almost like a person drowning in water. The head like gasps up for air.

Like, independence, back down. Up for a split second. And then we're back to World War II. Back down. But the problem is they're, well, figuratively. They're standing on the Ukrainians, right? Because the Ukrainians don't even get that chance to come up every so often to say, oh, independence, right? They are constantly being ruled from St. Petersburg.

Because at this time, that's where the capital was. Moscow was the industrial capital, so to speak, where St. Petersburg was the political capital. I appreciate you reminding me. I know that when I'm writing things. But yeah, every time I read it as well, though, I always go, oh, right. Right. Because those are the two important cities. So just the context of that.

So the Ukrainians were also very much in favor of the war when it first began. But as the war rolls on and the corruption and not having any sorts of rights, they're also getting upset. The Belarusians are even getting upset. And so you have these minorities in the West who are less convinced over time that the Germans are the real enemy. Because when the Germans come through, they're not always as horrific as they're told. As they've been told? Yes. Funny how that can go. Isn't it, though? It doesn't mean they're great.

No, no. Germany is no angel as it goes through these areas. Gee, Kat, I was never under the impression that... But the Russians and the leadership is so much worse. Wow. Okay. As we talk about the Poles who have been conquered multiple times, both sides, the Ukrainians and getting to Belarus, how deeply, well, as we get into pan-Slavism guess i'm what i'm attempting to ask very poorly here is their separate sense of identity versus a slavic identity i think this is something that

is perhaps very lost on us over over here in the united states i've all of europe just kind of becomes a big blur in the eyes of most of my students is my experience. How deeply are these separate identities felt versus a pan-Slavic identity and how much might, not to get ahead of ourselves, I realize things in the 20th century might further impact that. But I'm sure I've given you plenty of things. They're all very local. It's kind of like the U.S. before the U.S. was knitted together, right? Okay. That they are members of their local community and everybody else exists, but it's out there. They're not like waving a Russian flag.

Right. You know, above their little peasant hut. They're local. They belong to that local land. They may identify with just a particular region, but they're not going to even necessarily identify with this pan-German, or pan-Slav, definitely not the pan-Germanism, but the pan-Slavism. They're not going to look at the Bulgarians as,

okay, those are my Slavic brothers. They're like, I need to get the crops in. I need to make sure that I can feed my family. Let's survive another winter. Yeah. Those pressing thoughts. Funny how those things might go to the top of their list. Right.

To worry about. Yeah. Okay. So apologies for that little segue, but thank you. No problem. I think that's worth noting there. So, if I could take us away from my little inquiry there back to our failing leadership there. You mentioned that the Tsar is the leader of the church as well.

Grigori. Yes. What's his deal? Let's get into this guy. Grigori. Yes. What's his deal? Let's get into this guy. So Rasputin is a holy man, self-professed, others professed. It doesn't really matter in the end because he was accepted as a holy man. He had a lot of influence on Alex, the wife of the Tsar, on the Tsarina. Okay.

And that was mostly because they had a son with hemophilia, the blood disorder, and they wanted him to survive. Which just very quickly means that cut and don't really clot. It takes forever, yeah. And so, it seemed like Rasputin could get him to clot up, right? Psychosomatic, whatever. I don't know the psychology behind these things. But he had them convinced. Alexei, or Alexei, until adulthood when, you know, maybe he could be cured even. Who knows? Maybe through God. But in doing so, Rasputin had access to elites, and he was a party animal.

I've heard a few tales. Yes. Yeah. For a man of God, he certainly enjoyed his liquor and his ladies. And that lands well with a starving populace as well. That is already concerned about corruption and everything else. Yes. Right. That this madman perhaps is around them. And most peasants probably aren't that concerned with Rasputin.

But the other ruling elites, the upper middle class, the industrial class. Right. They- Who is this crazy guy? Yes. And why does he have so much power over the princess, the Tsarina? And she isn't all that trusted. No, she's she's german right she's german and we're fighting a german war so she is seen as wait a second is she the enemy right right

the list of problems here exactly it's insane all of this could be yes it almost makes me think like how did the revolution not happen sooner? Right. How did they even make it to 1917? Violence. A lot of state-sanctioned violence. Oh, okay. Well, thank you. You're welcome.

Anytime. But Nicholas also starts relying a lot more on his dear Alex. And she starts to give him advice, too, which only— Exacerbates all of this. That a German woman that cannot be underscored at this time too, because. Right. Yes. Is giving Papa Tsar advice about the war against Germans. Papa Tsar who is not entirely trustworthy.

There are chinks in the armor. There are. And then we've got this crazy holy man. Yep. Yeah. And all of that connecting. So 1916, we do have Russia's greatest success in the war. Yeah.

But. There's some tempering. Some tempering. By the end of 1916, 7 million Russian troops were dead, missing, or captured. 7 million. An army is what, 100,000 men at this time? I believe so. I'll put an asterisk there.

Check it out. 70 armies yeah are gone or us here in the the great state of utah more than double our state's population is gone is out of not wounded not laid up not able to continue the war because they're dead they're they're broken in terms of physicalness or mentalness at that time as it was seen, or they've been captured and they're just gone. Well, you know, Kat, I always appreciate how uplifting and joyful our conversations are. Thank you. It's part of my style. So I'm glad we could inject some levity into all this.

So, now that we've just discussed the disappearance of seven million souls. Yeah, it doesn't matter how much territory you regain nominally. You can't spend that. No, having a couple battle wins, you're still losing a lot of men at this time. Purific comes to mind. Yes. Yes. So this is, of course, going to take us into revolution.

Let's go ahead and take a quick breather here. And then when we come back, it's time to overthrow the czar. Okay. Let's do it. When Johann Rall received the letter on Christmas Day 1776, he put it away to read later. Maybe he thought it was a season's greeting and wanted to save it for the fireside. But what it actually was, was a warning, delivered to the Hessian colonel, letting him know that General George Washington was crossing the Delaware and would soon attack his forces.

The next day, when Raw lost the Battle of Trenton and died from two colonial Boxing Day musket balls, the letter was found, unopened in his vest pocket. As someone with 15,000 unread emails in his inbox, I feel like there's a lesson there. Oh well, this is The Constant, a history of getting things wrong. I'm Mark Chrysler. Every episode we look at the bad ideas, mistakes, and accidents that misshaped our world. Find us at ConstantPodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from obscurity to become the most powerful and significant figure in modern history. Over 200 years after his death, people are still debating his legacy. He was a man of

contradictions, a tyrant and a reformer, a liberator and an oppressor, a revolutionary and a reactionary. His biography reads like a novel, and his influence is almost beyond measure. I'm Everett Rummage, host of the Age of Napoleon podcast, and every month I delve into the turbulent life and times of one of the greatest characters in history, and explore the world that shaped him in all its glory and tragedy. It's a story of great battles and campaigns, political intrigue, and massive social and economic change, but it's also a story of great battles and campaigns, political intrigue, and massive social and economic change, but it's also a story about people, populated with remarkable characters. I hope you'll join me as I examine this fascinating era of history.

Find The Age of Napoleon wherever you get your podcasts. All right. We're back and revolution time. So, Kat, where do we need to begin? Let's get to the bottom of it. Well, we can't start with a revolution unless we have a little bit of unrest, right? Revolutions just don't pop into existence. You don't do it because you're bored. Right.

Right. There's usually some reason. Yeah, you got to go outside, you know. Who wants to go, especially in Russia. In the winter. In the winter, yeah. It's cool. Yeah.

So what we start to see in, well, basically throughout the war, but really starts to take off in 1617, is the soldiers and the workers start striking. So remember I mentioned the workers are in like these concentrated factories and they're even in barracks and these cities are full of workers and word spreads quickly. So in October of 1916, just in Petrograd, which was renamed, so it wouldn't sound so German, right? There were 250,000 strikers, right? Okay. Men and women participating in strikes. A quarter of a million people in one city are striking. That's huge.

Yeah. And with that quarter million people come rumors, come, you know, transgressions of some felt real perceived doesn't matter. Right. These are people who are getting angrier and angrier. And the troops that used to be around to put these sorts of things down. They're all a little occupied at the front. They are. Not only that, but when they do come back, they're like, this is some major BS. Right.

Because their family members are saying, we don't have food. We don't have coal to heat our little stoves in our apartments, in our flats,, that we may be sharing with many other people. We're freezing. You're really going to, you know, you're going to stab us with a bayonet because we're freezing to death? And the soldiers are like, nope. No. Thought it over. Yeah.

Not going to. No. Especially when you have, you know, family members writing you letters over the last several months of this is a problem. We're dying and we can't get food to feed the kids. Right. These are people who are at their breaking point. And this has been simmering then in the soldiers' heads for months, years. Years in some cases. And so the conditions are worsening and the government doesn't know how to respond.

And the Tsar has, so there's the Duma, which is the legislature that is supposed to help advise the Tsar. But he doesn't want to listen to them because he thinks that they're going to tell him things he doesn't want to hear, which, yeah, because— Always good leadership when you put your head in the sand because you don't like the feedback, right? Exactly. Solid play. Solid. Yeah. Eventually, it just gets so bad. There are so many losses that the Duma starts to convince the Tsar that stepping down in favor of the Duma would be a great idea. But what really happens then in February in Russia's time.

Russia's not on the Gregorian calendar. They're not. They're 13 days behind. So it's March our time. So I'll keep using March so people don't get confused. Okay. But by March, people are getting so upset. The doom is like, you've got to do something. You've got to let us take more control. The real breaking point was when women started to revolt.

And working women were not uncommon in Russia, in the factories, right? We see this in early industrialization in a lot of places. And these women have to do the work. Their menfolk may be away at war, so they are also the ones standing out to get the food. They're doing it all.

It's factory work, single mom after that. Yeah, and they can't get bread. And bread in some of these working areas was making up 80% of their calories. So no bread means certain starvation. Right. And so the women started revolting. And when women started revolting, people really started to perk up. You know, not, again, to not make light, but when you think about, I don't know, it makes me really grateful when I think about us living in a society where we can worry about things like, I'm avoiding bread because I don't want the carbs, right? Here's a world where that truly, bread, well, it almost contradicts the biblical claim that man does not live by bread alone.

Apparently, in a few corners. It's the staff of life. Yes, in a very literal way. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, getting the Tsar to give up power became a huge belief throughout Russian society. And because the workers and the soldiers were,

well, the soldiers certainly understood violence. They've been taught and trained, right? Yes. And they had it used against them, right? The Russian army was not a gentle place. You couldn't hand them a stress card and say, please be nice to me. That doesn't happen. And the workers, a lot of discipline in the factories as well.

They are fed up. And so their revolts get worse. And this unrest forces Nicholas to abdicate. And he abdicates on behalf of his son as well because his son is too young to... Make that call. Yes. And so to take his family out of power,

he abdicates in favor of his brother, who is like, oh, hell no. It's like a hot potato. Don't do that to me. No, no, no, no. What are you doing? I think I'll just call myself Mikhail Romanov and just go from here. Thank you very much.

Yeah, we don't need this. See you at the family reunion. Yes. You and Wilhelm. It'll be fun. And abdicates in favor of the Duma, who is really made up of a variety of people because there were no free and fair elections in Russia. It was not one man, one vote.

Yeah. It was, you know, this many workers had one. It was not one man, one vote. It was, you know, this many workers had one vote. This many peasants had one vote. You know, it was not a democratic sort of thing, but the Duma to their credit kind of got that. And so they started bringing in other folks and trying to take the elitist stink off the Duma. Okay. And they created the provisional government. First, the provisional committee, and then the provisional government that said,

okay, what we're going to do is we're going to transform to a democracy. We're going to have a constituent assembly at some point, and we'll have, we're Western-facing. We're going to make this work. I hear little French undertones all over this. Yes. Exactly. But this isn't liberté, galité, fatalité. This is an enormous, starving, blood-soaked nation. And they're in no mood for grand platitudes.

Right. They want to eat. They want the war to be over. They want their menfolk, and some womenfolk. There were some female soldiers at this time. Really? Yeah. Different story, different day, right? Okay.

Well, you got me. Women show up in militaries all over the place. People don't know or think about. Yeah. Like a million altogether. Okay. In various roles. Right.

But including some combat. Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. Different story, different day. But okay. Okay.

So the provisional government also had a friend known as the Petrograd Soviet. And the provisional government had all these elites in it at first, plus a socialist, maybe two, I can't remember exactly. But the Petrograd Soviet was made up far more of people like Mensheviks and Bolsheviks and socialist revolutionaries, all these different types of socialists and communists. So I realize, oh, this is a tall, impossible ask and like a mere one question, one response.

But maybe rather than even trying to get into some of the distinctions, please feel free to do so i'll just highlight or we can highlight sure it is the words communist socialist both historically and even into the present they get thrown around as synonyms when they yeah that it doesn't quite they're emotional words right they've become quickly emotional words. But at this time, they were all different types of adherence to these concepts of Marx or other socialists and communists at the time. So there was no monolithic socialism and communism. There were all these different flavors.

Perfectly put. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Anytime. And Russia was kind different flavors. Perfectly put. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Anytime. And Russia was kind of like a Baskin Robbins of socialism and communism. It had many flavors. You walk around, get your free sample.

Yeah. You had the socialist revolutionaries who were committed to peasants and the peasants owning the land. You had the Mensheviks who believed that there had to be a capitalist revolution in Russia before there could be a socialist revolution. You even had different flavors among the Bolsheviks. Some who believed that, okay, maybe the Mensheviks are not quite right, but a little right to the hardcore, no, we can just make a leap and go right into socialism under the right conditions. Because Marx had been dead for a while at this time. And so all of that ability to kind of think about what really fits anymore.

Play with the text, interpret in different ways. Yes, exactly. And so what we start to see is that Petrograd Soviet is trying to be a shadow government of sorts to this more elitist provisional government. But what happens over time until we get to November, October, their time, that revolution, is the provisional government becomes more and more radical. And the Petrograd Soviet more and more radical and the petrograd soviet becomes even more radical so by july of 1917 the the petrograd soviet is being dominated by marxists particularly mensheviks and the petrograd soviet becomes far more Bolshevik and left-leaning socialist revolutionaries. Because even among those, there are many flavors.

So in April, part of the impetus for that had been, okay, so you have the revolution in February slash March where the Tsar steps down, it goes to this new form of government. The people are like, okay, this is going to change the war. It doesn't because, man, Russia is too tied to the West. They owe the French so much money. All that back to the railroads infrastructure for decades. Yes, and they're receiving entreaties from the Western governments, All that back to the railroads infrastructure for decades. Yes. And they're receiving entreaties from the Western governments. Don't get out of the war because we can't have the entire German army on our right Western front.

We can't absorb all that. We can't do that. France and its dinky population. Yes. And the British and the Americans are not quite ready, right? Yeah, yeah. Still thinking maybe we can just sit this bad boy out. Right.

And so they're like, please, please, we don't care who's in power. Just don't leave. We don't care. And so the provisional government is like, okay, we're, oh, this hurts. But okay, we're committed. We will honor the commitments. And then the Petrograd Soviet and the little baby Soviets running around that are being formed in all these other cities to help

kind of incubating. Yes. They're getting their printing presses going. They're getting the word of mouth out. Like we don't have to fight this war. This isn't our war. This is an imperialist war. And when Lenin comes back in April. And where's he been? Switzerland. He's not skiing. I don't think he was a skier. I never got that impression from him. I didn't either. He was writing. I feel he's more of a snowboarder. That's, no? I think he was writing. I think he was doing a lot of writing.

Maybe writing. Not riding, but writing. Writing, yes. We got to get a sharp T there, yeah. Good. Yes. Good point. So, you know, there's the story of did Germany import him intentionally in, or did they just kind of go, hey, Lenin's in that train car, just let it go? Who knows? Just chill. Just kind of butt that slide. Yeah, exactly. What matters is he ended back in the Finland station station and he came in and started writing his thesis. And he had the April Theses. The grain of the revolution was there because he's writing about how the war needs to end.

So for peace, the people need to eat the bread and maybe the peasants need to have a little more control over their land. Those three key things. Those three key things. Those three key things. So real quick, recapping, make sure everyone's following. We have two revolutions in 1917. Yes. We got March using our Gregorian calendar. Yes.

Very appropriate, by the way. Isn't it though? Always been a fan of the Gregorian calendar. It feels a very strong one. Makes sense. So March, now it's April. Lenin shows up, drops his thesis, three great hits. Yes, and things are fomenting, right?

Because the provisional government isn't keeping the war together. Magically, the war tide doesn't turn because they want to be more democratic. It just gets uglier. And there's this special little thing called Order No. 1 that comes out of the Petrograd Soviet that says you don't have to obey the officers you have. You can elect your own officers. Do we now come full circle to the smart and capable and popular peasant soldiers? Oh, man, if he's alive. Oh, okay.

What you come full circle to in many cases is the smart, capable peasant soldier who says, hey, if you elect me, you can go home. It's a strong platform. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that landing. Yeah. Perhaps particularly with the guy who's like, still like a gun. Yeah. Still like a gun.

I'm still waiting for my weapon. My guy's just anything. Handgun's fine, really. I could beat him with this stick. That's what I got. So, yeah. And that really undermines the army. Okay. Because most soldiers, I mean, we're talking millions have deserted by this time as well.

Millions are gone. Millions are deserting, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently. Right. And everybody just wants to go home. And we'll figure it out with Germany. And they've gone home, now schooled in the arts of war. And they've either gone back to the factory or they've gone back to their landowner's land. The landowner, was he at the front? Right. I don't recall seeing him there. The landowner's land? The landowner, was he at the front?

Right. I don't recall seeing him there. And when I did see people like him, they were giving me the crappy jobs. And not a gun. And not a gun. Yeah. Or really bad gun. Apparently, I found the reframe. You did.

Yeah, okay, that's fine. Yeah. Or a crappy gun. Right. So this just gets worse. The July days, the government shows it cannot control, the provisional government cannot control the direction of the revolution. And the Petrograd Soviet is getting stronger and stronger. And the incubating Soviets across the, which just means council, that's Soviet means council. These workers and peasants and soldiers councils across, especially Western Russia,

are just getting stronger and stronger because they have a consistent message. The more they radicalize, the more consistent their message is. And so- By the way, such a small side note, but thank you for defining Soviet. Oh, no problem. I think there are a lot of people who probably, oh, that's what that means. Yeah, it just means council. Yes.

Interesting. Yeah. So, well, I won't get into that. But the government did try to do things. They basically said freedom of press, which meant now all those very radical presses didn't have anyone shutting them up. Right.

So now it's just... Yeah. Civil liberties for everyone means you can't lock up Right. So now it's just, pfft. What is a war-torn nation trying, a war-torn government trying to instill some sort of order? It can't be done. And by October, it's getting cold again. If any of your listeners have ever been to Russia, it can start snowing in September, right? October can be very bitterly cold. You need heat.

You need food where are the crops that the germans have taken because they've been marching through poland and ukraine right and again the women start to revolt and it just basically the bolshevik government then says, this provisional government, or not provisional government, the Petrograd Soviet says, this is the right time. And we get to revolution number two. Yes, but it's really more of a coup. revolutionaries go into the Winter Palace, into the dining room to arrest the provisional government, which is now headed by socialists. So you'd think there'd be some professional courtesy. But no, Kerensky, the great lauded Kerensky, the West is like, he's a great democratic man.

He's a socialist and he's recently escaped. And they don't capture him, but they capture a lot of other leaders. And voila, the Bolsheviks are in charge, along with the Esseri, the socialist revolutionaries. But it's the radical section that is now in control of what then becomes the revolution. Because you got to have two sides sometimes for a revolution. And so who's the other side? It's the remnants of this autocracy and the remnants of the provisional government and what is democratic values.

So that's when the revolution starts to happen. And the Bolsheviks come in along with the Esseris. We don't want to make it sound as if they're the only ones there. They later got rid of them. That's why they're forgotten. Yes. Convenient.

Convenient. Worked out. Yeah. And the Bolsheviks basically, along with the Esseris, say, hey, our goal is peace, land, and bread. Stop me if you've heard this, right? Lenin has it. And Lenin wasn't the clear leader at this point. He had people around him still saying, hey, we're not ready for this.

We have fewer communist party, Bolshevik-type communists in Russia than they do in Germany. Now, I knew they were a minority, but that had never struck me. Yeah. Holy cow, really? Yes. So there are only about 50,000 Bolsheviks and their allies in Russia at this time. The bureaucracy of government has millions. Oh, wow. And so what do you do?

You chop off the top, but you have to keep the rest of it. And so the bureaucracy will end up having this very Russian nationalist flavor. But the Bolsheviks already had a little bit of that, too. And there we go, huh? And there we go. And, you know, peace, land, and bread. Peace is first. Right.

So out of the war? They try to help the West understand. They're like, look, we're going to try to fight this as best we can. We just can't put up very much. We have to feed our people. And the West is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to stay in the war. And the Bolsheviks are like, we cannot honor that commitment.

Because first, it's an imperial war. And second, our people, they can't do it. And the West is like, you have to stay in the war. And the Bolsheviks are like, okay, you're not listening. So we're just going to have to, at first say, we're just not going to resist the Germans, which is an invitation to please keep walking through our land. Yeah, that's one way to handle it. Three miles a day just on horseback? Sure.

Wow. No problem. Some real jealousy from people on the Western Front, huh? Yeah. I mean, Trotsky did try. He became quickly the leader of the army. He had been a Menshevik, then became a Bolshevik. So he tried, but there just was no will among the people to fight this war.

They really wanted peace. And so the Russians start to leave the war. And that only makes the West unhappier because they want the Bolsheviks and their allies to honor those commitments. And they can't. The provisional government couldn't do it. What makes them think that the Bolsheviks could even if they wanted to? And so the the west wishful thinking right just like oh my gosh please don't leave us with a one front war yes yeah and where

do the germans go towards yeah of course why not right and the of course the u.s gets involved in and blah blah but the the bolsheviks are also, their goal is to get the government, the people just quieted again. We're not going to force the landowners to give up their land yet, but those who are occupying the land, the peasants who are occupying the landlord's land, we're not throwing them out. And so the landlords are like, what are we supposed to do? And it's like, we don't care. It's not our problem. That's an issue. Exactly. Same for the factories. There are these little cells of workers that will sometimes take over the factories and the factory owners are like, what are we supposed to do? Again, not our problem.

But over time, it becomes very repressive. And over time is a very short period of time. It's within months. Yeah, that's rapid. Yeah. Yeah. So geologically, it's like a blink, right? Oh, 100%. Of course. So what then happens is the revolution happens when the other side, the pro-provisional government, the pro-liberals with the small l, right? The pro-monarchists, all of those start to say, no, no, no, we have to oppose this because we need to keep our land. We need to keep our factories. We need to keep Russia. We need to conserve Russia the way it was before the war. And the Bolsheviks have no intention of doing that. And this is where we get into a civil war of sorts.

Yes. The civil war and revolution are inseparable. And meanwhile, the West is still like, excuse us. Can you guys seriously hold down this front? Could we also have the loans you owe us? Because this war is really expensive. And the Bolsheviks are have the loans you owe us? Because this war is really expensive. And the Bolsheviks are like, are you kidding us? You have got to be the biggest jokesters on the planet because we can't even feed our people right now. We don't have a good shortage in Russia right

now. We have a goods famine. When I was in the archives in Russia, in Moscow, they were writing orders on scraps of paper that were two inches by two inches because there same from that side to fit the business of government on what little literal scraps of paper there were. Holy crap. So— Oh my gosh, Kat. You've handled it. I've handled this stuff. Yeah. And so immediately, the Bolsheviks start cracking down on borders and imports and exports and trying to get food into the hands of people, especially in the cities where the workers are because they want to reward their people, but they also going to take the grain from the peasants without necessarily paying for it and that creates enemies in the peasants and means that maybe they like the white

guards that come through rather than the red guards but then the red guards are mad that the peasants supported these others and oh it's the peasants supported these others. And, oh, it's the peasants' lives really, they already sucked bad. I don't. And like somehow they actually managed to get worse. Yeah. Yeah. It was just ugly. Being a Russian peasant, just never a time where you look at that and go, yeah, we can romanticize that.

Yeah. No one wants to reenact Russian peasant hood. Right. Because it's like, we'll just live with somebody's boot on our throat the entire time. But sometimes it's a different boot. Yeah. I hear change is as good as a break. I don't know, because I think the Bolsheviks were using the same boots in many cases.

Ah, fair, fair. That the imperialists had used. But this also means with the loans not going to the West, right? The West starts to really see the Bolsheviks for what they fear them to be, which are, they are not allies. They are not good Christians who will help us prop up the Russian government. They are out to undermine the West. And I mean, yeah, that's part of Lenin's whole thing. He thought that there would be revolutions that would spread to Germany, which they did briefly then. Right. That it would spread to all other areas. Went to Hungary. Why?

I mean, for the West at this time, the French, the English, the Americans, they are looking at what's going on in Russia and going, holy crap. Well, and to, by all means, correct me, jump in. But to fast forward just a titch, we do eventually get American, British, French troops that even go to Russia. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Yes. Being a native Michigander, I'm very touched that you brought that up because the museum to the American Expeditionary Force in Russia, the headquarters is in Frankenmuth, Michigan, Christmas time, USA. Really?

Yes. Well, that's all you need, right? Right. Christmas and... They sent all these men from Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota because they, quote, got the cold, end quote. They could handle the cold. Sent them to Russia to allegedly guard the equipment that the West had provided to the Russian government. But also to maybe show some support for, you know, the non-Bolsheviks.

But all they did was convince the Bolsheviks and the Bolsheviks audience that, oh, this is an external threat too. So we're planting the seeds now of this growing, this incubating baby that is about, will become the USSR. Yes. And we're planting the seeds that the U.S. and company are the great enemy. They're out to get us. And how do we know? Because they invaded us. And meanwhile, these poor men from Michigan and Wisconsin and Minnesota are literally sitting in places like Arkhangelsk, freezing their posteriors off, right?

Like this is supposed to be analogous to the... Right. Somewhere there's some guy from Massachusetts or New Hampshire going, I dodged a bullet. Right. Glad they latched onto those others. Northern Maine is like, uh, you know. I look at how my dad handles Michigan winters and I'm like, I still don't think he would take an Arkhangelsk winter now.

Right. I don't think so. take an Arkhangelsk winter now. Right. I don't think so. So, yeah, they're sitting there. There were letters going back like, we had to make boots out of dogs, which for our dog lovers out there, I'm really sorry. But that was not uncommon among Russian peasants when their beloved shepherd of their animals died to turn them into something useful. But yeah, the men there are literally freezing and having the worst time. The Czechs are there. The Japanese are there.

This is all self-interest, right? The Japanese are thinking, hmm, we lost or we won that war, but we could maybe get a little bit back or a little extra into our own empire. So, you know, and the West is hoping that, hey, we'll show the Russians that we're friends and they'll flock to us. That's super not the message that's being received. Super not the message at all. So, my goodness, we've gone a little longer than I expected. You're such a great guest. Oh, thanks.

I'm having fun. Good. I am too. So I am going to press just a little bit more if I can have your time. So how does this then, we just touched on Americans in Russia and how that's going. What's going on back in the United States? Is there a response to the rise of the Bolsheviks in Russia? There's a famous phrase,

and forgive me for not remembering who said it, but it's communism was the ghost that stalked Versailles. So while France especially, and Britain to some extent, wanted to really squeeze the Germans. And forgive me just real quick, because we haven't gotten to that point for my listeners. No, no spoilers.

It's all good. But Versailles, the great chateau, the palais. The little cottage. That's right. In France, where we recently listened to Audubon Bismarck put a crown on a Wilhelm. This is where the treaty will be hashed out after World War I. So that's what Kat's referring to.

Yes. Kat, please. So all of these representatives are there. And while they're looking at Germany going, okay, we cannot let this happen again. Spoiler, they did. It's really what can we do to make sure we don't hurt Germany so badly that we turn them over to the Bolsheviks. And the Bolsheviks became the scary boogeyman of, of the Western world. And for good reason, right?

At this time, the Bolsheviks then are starting to crack down on the people that had been part of the previous government. I mean, they are, there's a secret police, the Cheka. They are rounding up people. They are disappearing people. Masses of Russians are emigrating to the West and to places like Chicago and New York, which freaked out a lot of Americans as well, because there's no future left for them under this Bolshevik regime. Some of your listeners may have watched Dr. Zhivago, where he comes back to the city and there are multiple people living in these old palatial homes. And yeah, that's going on because there isn't enough living space for the workers that are in the cities. It's horrible.

There's cholera. There's dysentery. Disease takes over in the winter. It is getting bad. And so the West is looking at Russia going, we cannot let that spread. We have to contain it. It's not the containment theory that we'll talk about in several weeks. We'll get to that. A few weeks?

That's a bit. Oh, that's a bit. Oh, that's, yeah. All right, all right. But yeah, not. But yeah, let's contain it. So let's not kill off Germany. And the West is terrified of those ideas then spreading because America had a working class

that was sometimes a little bit upset. Remember the shirt, you know, the shirtwaist Remember the triangle shirtwaist factory fire? And these sorts of things did leave a lot of American workers feeling like the people who ran these factories in the government didn't care. And so they could be ripe for Bolshevism, and Emma Goldman was. There were legitimate reasons these ideas were feared. And so this would end up going into the first big red scare that the U.S. ever faced under the Palmer raids and others

in the late 19-teens, early 1920s. And yeah, America was terrified of what was going on. The labor movement in Britain had some links to that as well, right, to these socialist principles. And they're not identified with the Labor Party today. It's completely different, really, than it was then. But they were far more radical and forgiving of the Bolsheviks' methods back then. But yeah, a lot of the Western areas were just terrified. Well, Kat, I feel like that's the exclamation point. I mean, is there anything that you think we need more?

Well, no. I mean, part of the exclamation with an asterisk, the Bolsheviks were nationalizing land and factories in 1918, which meant that they were willing to take them from the owners. And that scared the Americans and the Western capitalists as well. And this is all cooking as we get to the end of the war. And hence, it's the ghost at Versailles as all of that looms in the eastern distance. I got my north, south, east, west correct there. Yes, all right.

It is eastern, yes. Yeah, you know this stuff on a map and then you're talking in a little dungeon basement. And yeah, Kat, thank you so much. Anytime. This was a blast. It was. I really enjoyed it.

This was a lot of fun. And of course, if you want to take a class from Kat, you're just going to have to enroll at Utah Valley University. It's true. I'll be teaching this fall. There we go. Yeah. I'll be teaching this fall. Nice.

Isn't that great? What are you teaching? Oh, that sounds like a problem for fall. No, I'll be teaching my Middle East course and doing some capstones. I'm doing genocide in the 20th century. So many uplifting topics. I know, I'm just Dr. Fun, right? That's what I think.

You're just great at parties. Thanks, yes. If you need someone to start winding it down, I am your person. So Kat, what do you do? Oh gosh. Oh, all seriousness. One more time. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. I gratitude you kind souls providing additional funding to help us keep going. And a special thanks to our members whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Thank you.