History That Doesn't Suck - 131: Epilogue on World War 1 before the US

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

Starting the Great War (World War I) and covering this massive conflict up to 1917 has been a pretty big task unto itself. So, before we go in close on America's role, Greg and Kelsi sit down to digest and talk through a few aspects of the War, as well as share a few additional stories and experiences. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue. Now, on with the show. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I am your professor, Greg Jackson, and today it's time to do another epilogue. Breaking away from our usual narrative, we did have Dr. Kat Brown on just last time.

But as Kelsey dines, everyone, as always, Kelsey, please say hello. I'm just charging. Hey, y'all. There we go. As we were talking this week, I've got the next episode pretty much ready to go. And I know many of you are looking forward to this is the episode where the U.S. gets in the war.

There come the Americans. That's right. Okay. There are a lot of responses, a lot of excited listeners at Philippe Town's line there. But there was so much information in these last four episodes that uh there's a lot to unpack yes and i i think we both kind of realized maybe now's the time to have some of that discussion and then get into the properly Yeah, just leave all the true, if you will, U.S. entry and battles to come.

Together. Yeah, keep that connected. We've got so much to discuss in this. Basically, the non-U.S. history volume of HTDS, in as much as that will ever be a thing, the 20th century does present a little bit of that. And as I'd hope people noticed,

I was very careful to get us through the early parts of World War I. I both want to make sure people are aware of what's there so that it makes more sense when the U.S. enters the war. But I also am going to make sure we move quickly because this remains a US history focused podcast, even as the United States is now the global massive 800 pound gorilla.

And it's only gonna become more and more of the case as we get deeper into the 20th century. But I get ahead of myself. We'll unpack all of this. We begin with one correction that I'm very pleased to be able to make. David in Massachusetts, a National Park Service guide. MPS.

We love them. We just, yeah, we adore them. Anytime we can't find what we're looking for from archival material, other primary sources, secondary sources, I love being able to call up these variable walking encyclopedias that work for the NPS. They're always so polite and kind. It's phenomenal. So all that said, David, my gratitude to you, sir. Actually, this would have been the original, but in the remaster of, I want to say it's episode six? Six. As we got out to Concord. I mean, actually, I have been to Lexington.

I have seen the reenactment of the battle at Lexington, which was awesome. Didn't make it to Concord. I know. I know. Close. But there are reasons we won't get into it. Not a very far drive. No, sure isn't.

Sure isn't. But so I have not been able to physically see the site. As I try to describe, you know, it's like most, frankly, of the battlefields. It's not like I have witnessed all these. Haven't been to every single battlefield that we've talked about. Yeah, somehow that hasn't been able to fit into my life. So, all that said, from what I was putting together, I said that the Concord hymn was inscribed on the obelisk. If you remember the episode, this is perhaps meaningful, and if you don't, we'll go listen to the episode. It's been fixed in the episode, but I still want to note it. I said that it was inscribed on the obelisk initially, and it was actually inscribed on a statue very near the obelisk. Small things, but I don't like to, you know, I always like to get all of them.

So, David, my gratitude to you. And just again, NPS, you people rock. So, there's that. Kelsey, let's talk about these episodes, shall we? Let's do it. Okay. So, I think I'm excited to talk about World War I specifically. Me too. It's been interesting to get into it because my grandpa was in World War I.

I'm sorry, did you say your grandpa was in World War I? My grandpa was born in 1898. How did you not share this with me? How did you sit on, I'm glad you did. I'm curious to hear it now. He was born right around the time of the beginning of the Spanish-American War. Okay.

And so yeah, so he was 19-ish when the U.S. enters the war. He went to Fort Douglas here in Utah to train and then got influenza and got sent home because my grandpa's family was a founding member of a very small town that I grew up in and got sent home cause it was really close. And then he got better and went back. And by the time he was ready to go, the war was over.

And influenza might have saved his life. That's a weird statement. And as we will get to the Spanish flu, as it's known, it's going to be quite the killer. No, it was. His mom, I guess, kept him in one room of the house. Nobody but her was allowed to enter the room. I'm surprised she didn't get sick.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's good. It was a big deal. Still better than letting anyone else in the room. Oh, absolutely. But, yeah, nah. I have a picture somewhere of me wearing his uniform.

Really? All of my cousins, we've all, like, gotten pictures of us wearing it. That's cool. And my brother owns it right now. now, has it in his possession. I imagine that is a cherished family heirloom. Definitely. I've been really excited for this. Yeah, we're into grandpa's territory.

I didn't ever know him because he died in the 80s before I was born. But there's that connection. That connection. Yeah, wow. All right. Well, before we get to all that, let's, I feel like I just dogged episode 127. That wasn't my intention, but 127 was very much meant to kind of,

I'll still sound like I'm putting it down. Well, we have to introduce Wilson. Well, yeah, we do have to, not that we haven't seen a little bit of him, but yeah, there were so many other things that happened in his presidency. Exactly. And it was not a complete image in and of itself.

We've gotten a few messages, people asking about specifically 18th Amendment, which has not been touched on yet. Also, Wilson, and as it's always found in the indexes of the books on him and race relations, Wilson enacts, basically he brings segregation into the civil service. W.E.B. Du Bois will be less than pleased with actions that happen under the Woodrow Wilson administration. And so I've been asked about that as well. That is coming. It's very planned for a whole episode, as is the 18th Amendment. They're bigger than just throwing into this one episode. Precisely.

And so happy to let you all be aware that these things are coming. We're not ignoring them. Patience, patience. All of these things in their due course. The 18th Amendment, I very purposely, like prohibition is the real story on the 18th Amendment. Yeah. You know. You don't want to just skim over that. No way. We're going to super, you know, we're going to hang out with some gangsters. I'm excited for that. That's very much happening. So the idea of like doing an episode where I

really just kind of talk through all the legal history. I mean, I'll give you the legal history, but let's wrap it up with some of the excitement. The interesting stuff that people, because we don't want to hear necessarily all the legal jargon, but you want to hear how it impacts people. Yeah, we'll get to the speakeasies. And so similarly with Woodrow Wilson's actions on race, we have an episode planned that's going to examine the re-emergence of the KKK. And so that will be the opportunity to kind of look at all of those things playing out in the 19-teens and into the 1920s. So anyhow, that's there for you. It's coming. It's coming. And realize there will be other things as we get into the 20th century. This will only become more so the case. Yeah.

Especially with these big world wars. Yeah, that's what I mean. Whatever the thing is you're into, I love the excitement of listeners like, what about this? When are we going to get it? When are we going to get it? It's coming. It's coming. I promise.

I promise. But episode 127 specifically, I mean, a few things that I like to highlight, you know, really make sure that we've caught. 16th and 17th Amendment, speaking of legal things that perhaps are less exciting, right? Less exciting, but super important. So I won't rehash what's in the episode. The key thing on the 16th Amendment is that this really makes it unquestionably possible for Congress to have an income tax imposed on a federal level. Again, the details on that are in 127.

But the thing that I would perhaps ask you to reflect back to is if you go all the way back to the beginning of this whole story, right? We go back to those revolutionary era episodes. Think about the Articles of Confederation. They couldn't even tax, like at all, right? A little jumpy. There was a sojourney jerk reaction. The sentiment of taxation without representation that was very much an impetus in trying everything.

So getting to the Constitutional Convention, the framers, although still nervous and scared about big government being able to tax, they realized that the federal government can't function without being able to raise funds. So Congress has given the ability to tax that's envisioned as coming through imports and excise taxes primarily. This constitutional amendment though, the 16th, opens the door indisputably to income tax. So you see the United States, the American people, they've shifted. They've changed. Well, they don't have that fear anymore because that's not something they really experienced.

And the perception, and I guess this would be a key thing, you know, the perception, whether you agree or disagree with it, we're also now getting into things that increasingly, you know, people still debate into the present, right? Like in our 21st century. So another one of the key factors here is that all that massive wealth that we saw going back to the Gilded Age episodes, this is unreal. The amount of money that some of these- That they're living through as well, right? We're going from, I mean, John Hancock was wealthy back in colonial Massachusetts, right? He'd have been your Rockefeller for the colony of Massachusetts, but being the Rockefeller of

just little colonial Massachusetts is not being Rockefeller of the United States. Yeah. So, that's where you've, you now have so much wealth in the picture, in the hands of such a small group that you have Americans grappling with, is that amount of wealth in one person's hands actually a threat? And this is where there's a scholar I quoted, and he talked about both the kind of the liberal and conservative arguments that both can apply to the 16th Amendment. So, on the quote-unquote liberal side, there was an absolute redistribution of wealth component. On the conservative side, the fact that the argument is beginning with a question of, is liberty being threatened by that much money being in the hands of one person?

And so, wanting, so the impetus for the redistribution of wealth is coming from a place of protecting representative government and individual liberty. Everyone can make whatever they want of this, right? But I told myself I was gonna be so quick on this, Kelsey. You have to shut me up. I start nerding out fast. Okay, now the next one. Okay. So the 17th Amendment, also super important,

especially I would say, this again gets into things that people discuss into the present. When we remember that the United States started as 13 colonies that then saw themselves as 13 sovereign mini states. They were states. They're just mini in our,

especially out West, right? The East Coast. It's fun talking with friends on the East Coast when they come out here and it's just a state over, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a freaking state over. You need a flight if you want to get to that quickly. You don't just drive to Arizona. I mean, you do. Well, sure. Yeah. If you plan the day. Yeah. Yeah. If you have, you know, some time to kill. Yeah. There's no. We also measure distance in hours. Oh, it only takes like four hours to

get there. That's right. That's right. So, the fact that they started as sovereign states, part of what the Constitution did, I mean, this was a huge compromise to actually hand over sovereignty, parts of sovereignty. And then there's that big wrestling of what does that mean and how does that shift? You read through the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay, they're trying to weigh in on what that shift might look like. The debate continues with Americans for decades.

The Civil War is of course a big exclamation point on settling some of that question. And then we have more amendments that follow that solidify more power with the federal government. Anyhow, we've talked about that in previous episodes. So all that to say, the 17th Amendment is, just like the 16th Amendment is a movement by reform-minded progressives saying,

we need to reassess what's going on with wealth to ensure liberty. The idea here, at least that, again, I'll always couch, I'm not trying to take anyone's side, right? That's the argument that was being made. And clearly, if the amendment passed, the vast majority of America was on board with that, whether you agree or disagree looking back. So, for the 17th Amendment, this was, again, addressing, well, the failure being that sometimes with state legislatures appointing senators, as had been the case, well, sometimes you had state politics get in the way and they just left the seat unfilled. So you would have vacancies in the Senate because of whatever scandal or shenanigans are at play back in New Jersey. Yeah. Sorry, New Jersey. You got picked for that one. Probably unfair. But

with the idea that we'll now do direct elections, so that's the big change. We're making the United States more democratic. More people-focused. Yes. And when I, yeah, I don't mean the party, but when I say democratic, what I mean is more direct democracy, to be clear. We're having the citizens of a state elect their senators directly.

So that's direct democracy at play as opposed to the indirect representation where you would elect your state legislators who then in turn select a senator. Which I actually, despite having taken AP government and passing that test, I didn't realize that. Did you not know that? Or I totally forgot it. I'm going to guess you totally forgot it. I probably did. But hey, there we go. You've been reminded. Now I remember. Wow. I nerded out on that. Yes, you did.

Dang it, Kelsey. You've got to stop me. I'm sorry. My eyes glossed over for a second. Was it that boring? No, it wasn't. It's just late. That's fair.

Look, the key thing beyond getting into Woodrow Wilson's progressive accomplishments in episode 127, clearly the nation still from Teddy's days is still very much on the progressive bandwagon. Oh yeah. Because Woodrow wouldn't be, we say like he accomplished it. And I don't mean to ever take away from a president, but presidents don't unilaterally just-

He doesn't get to make all these decisions just by himself. So the fact that there's that support in Congress among the American people, it speaks to a time where the people of the United States are really seeing the need for some serious reform. Yeah. He also super doesn't know international relations at all.

No, he doesn't. I kind of love highlighting that because that's what he's known for today. Yeah. Like that's what- Yeah. All this stuff that we'll talk about after. Yes.

So yeah, we won't get ahead of ourselves, but he's really kind of floundering, you know, as we saw whether it was from Haiti to, I mean, Mexico, the punitive expedition, the one little highlight I want to bring on the punitive expedition. I want us to remember that when we get to the next episode and I start talking about the Zimmerman telegram. So to quickly remind you, the punitive expedition, these are American troops. They're in Mexico.

They're pursuing Pancho Villa after he's made an attack on US soil. This is within the context of American troops already being in Mexico during the Mexican revolution. Point being, tensions are high between Mexico and the United States. Mexico very justifiably feels that its sovereignty has been walked all over by its northern neighbor. And that's when the Zimmerman telegram comes in. I'll save most of the details for the next episode, but in it, Germany is asking Mexico to make war on the United States

and is offering to assist Mexico in taking three U.S. states that were formerly Mexican territory before the Mexican-American War back in the 1840s. So when we remember that the punitive expedition is going on, at least for me, we're realizing that this telegram isn't just bringing up something that is water under the bridge. This isn't looking at a border shift from over half a century ago. It's discussing shifting that border back at a moment when, at a moment when tensions are high, when feelings are fraught between Mexico and the United States. And that has, you know, during with the punitive expedition, it just,

it hits harder in my mind when you realize. There's a lot of that current feeling going on. Like it's not just because of the Mexican-American War a hundred years. Yeah. Decades ago, right? It's not like Mexico's getting this telegram kind of out of the blue. Like, oh, yeah, that was a part of Mexico way back in the day. Like, that just happened. So there are fraught feelings. It's a moment of tension between, you know, the two neighbors here.

Okay, let's wrap it up there because we have so much more to talk about with World War I. We'll take a quick break and we're going to dive into those causes. Perfect. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? Well, I've got the podcast for you. I'm Sean Piles and I host NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. On our show, we help listeners like you make the most of your finances. I sit down with NerdWallet's team of nerds, personal finance experts in credit cards, banking, investing, and more.

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And we're back. Yes, we are. Kelsey, the causes, the 99-year causes of World War I. Can I tell you, that was a fun episode for me. In part because that was... It was a challenge? Well, yes and no. To yourself? There's no episode that I have done to date, right?

We're at the time of this recording, and I've got the next one pretty much written. We're just over 130 episodes, right? That episode more than any other was as close to being one of the lectures I regularly give in class as any. Now, here's where it got challenging though. When I cover the causes of World War I in the classroom, first of all, it's typically a twice-a-week class, so it's a 75-minute minutes. But, you know, obviously, when I'm in the classroom, it's not like I've got sound design, you know, behind me and I'm going to story mode. I mean, I think a lot of people would appreciate college lectures if there was sound effects. Do you imagine that? It'll be like the live show. We'll just bring a band in. It'll be great. Yeah, no problem. Lights kicking.

Professors, take note. This is all in the budget. It's no problem. Yeah, yeah. At every university. This won't drive tuition up. Okay, broad strokes. In case anyone got lost, I did get a few messages. Not from anyone saying they got lost per se, but like, oh, I had to listen to that one twice.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of information that's being covered. 99 years in 65 minutes. Yeah. How much is being covered? You know, 30,000 foot view. If I were to make that even shorter, you know, the real key thing is to see how these five great powers of Europe, right? Prussia, Russia, they rhyme super different though.

I always forget where Prussia was. I know I've heard it, but in my mind, I can't ever picture like where on the map it's at. So that was nice. Yeah, this is an episode best listened to with some maps i do i do think uh but when i reviewed it i definitely had europe maps pulled up it's a good chunk of modern germany prussia was again you know the second to austria initially in terms of kind of you know being the leader of the germanic pack uh in this large central space of Europe filled with Germanic peoples, but not of the same kingdom or rather principality under the Holy Roman Empire. To give the 30,000 foot view, the five great powers.

So Prussia, just ballparking it as modern Germany. It was modern Germany's more than that but yeah prussia austria that messy situation right of austria having conquered all these other uh groups of people uh groups of peoples russia the massive sprawling eurasian empire, France, and Great Britain, those five great powers, right? Realizing what a horrendous nightmare they've gone through during the Napoleonic War and taking that. That's why I start with the Congress of Vienna. To me, that's crucial to the framing of World War I. You've got to be able to know how Europe, enough generations have passed, they have been able to truly forget with the relative peace.

It's not perfect peace. We saw that out of on Bismarck's three wars, right? Is he brilliant, brutal, those two adjectives together with Otto von Bismarck. But as he fabricates and sets up this different Europe, I'll get to that in a second. But the real big 99-year view to keep in mind is how Europe goes from having lived through the horror of the Napoleonic Wars, which I don't know if I can put an exclamation point on that. That's too big. We're talking about two decades across the whole continent. Everyone has seen how brutal

and ugly war can be. And that's why they carefully set up this concert of Europe at the Congress of Vienna. And then that, you know, it slowly gets whittled away. It proves very elastic. You know, it's able to change and shift and morph. But as I mentioned, you know, it, uh, it's able to change and shift and morph. But as I mentioned, you know, historians, some look at say the revolutions of 1848, which I think is pretty premature, but they're like, eh, it's kind of toast. Uh, 1870 is a pretty fair year, I think, to make that, uh, that assertion with the Franco-Prussian war. So the reminder that the three wars, um, of Aud-Bismarck, 1864, 1866,

and then 1870, that's where he pieces together this stronger Prussia, proves that a bigger Prussia picks up Schleswig. I won't say it right this time, but Holstein gets those into Prussia, takes on Austria in 1866,

proves that Prussia's bigger, bigger batter, you know, and all that jazz than Austria. Now, I didn't go into story mode for this. I almost did, but the episode is already, again, so long. It's so long. Had to keep it. But the Ems telegram, as it's called. So in Bad Ems, I did mention that the French ambassador goes and sees Kaiser,

excuse me, he's not Kaiser yet. You know, the Prussian King Wilhelm goes and sees him. This is a spa town, right? So basically he's on vacation, you know.

As you do. More or less catches him on the street and, you know, they have this quick conversation. He's like, hey, you know, thanks for not supporting, you know, your relative going on to the Spanish throne.

Because let's be honest, they're all related to each other. Well, they are, but that's like super related, right? They're of the same house. And France is freaking out the idea of, you know, basically two borders, same family, like close family. And, you know, Bill Helms like, yeah, yeah, no worries. It's all good. The ambassador pushes the envelope.

Hey, can we get you to be like, that will super never happen. And, you know, King, good for him. I respect it. Like, no, why would I have myself in the future? You know where I stand today. We'll worry about tomorrow when tomorrow comes. Okay. And when he telegrams, you know, he telegrams that to Bismarck. Now it's a little overstated by some historians. They make it sound like Bismarck like took that and just edited the

hell out of it. But he took just a little bit, little tweaks. Yeah. You know, just the lipsies in the right place just to make it feel a little more heightened. Again, probably less than some of the history books that you'll read out there. But he did a little smidge, a little titch. There was definitely some editing going on there. He had a little salt to that stew, you know, a little more. Something, something. And then released that to the presses. And super just set France up for this war.

I really don't know how else to frame him than being like, do I support someone just manipulating to create wars? No. This guy plays Europe like a chessboard, though. Like, at the same time, you just have to acknowledge the man is, his intelligence is off the charts. charts well in the way that he knows how people are going to react he knows how to read people like it and how to manipulate them into doing exactly what it is he wants them to do so mr blood and iron i mean yeah he is he is scary master Yeah. And this is the other thing that I think is worth pointing out about him. The dude knew when to stop. Yeah. He didn't push it too far.

Exactly. I mean, from Alexander the Great to Napoleon. It's easy to get to that point where you go just a little too far. And that's too much. But I think he. So many of these conquerors throughout history, you know, not to say that you condone or agree with Genghis, but just- No, just acknowledge that- In a factual way, yeah, you would have kept things together had you just stopped at this point, right?

No, Napoleon had to go charging into Moscow in the middle of winter. Looking back, probably not the best idea. Wasn't the best idea, yeah. Europe could, it's not to say it'd be for the better it just it would look probably look pretty different had he not done that probably no um uh who who knows it's you can't even follow that now we get into the counterfactual history which i'm not a super fan of it just it's too messy well who knows exactly but no idea what's what would have happened but for audub Otto von Bismarck to be like, yep, I'm a man of peace. Love me nothing more than some peace.

We so don't want war. Europe, let's have peace. Austria, Austria-Hungary to be exact. I always drop the Hungary. I think most people do. I know, but we'll be precise here. Yeah. Right, Russia.

Hey, let's all be friends. I know you guys are super competing over the Balk know, but we'll be precise here. Yeah. Right? Russia, hey, let's all be friends. I know you guys are super competing over the Balkans, but let's be friends. And the fact that he even makes that happen, you know, to any degree, it is, again, it's that same, just his own league, a league of his own, that guy. Yeah, I would never be able to be that person. Well, as we fly through this again, that is a key turning point. It's a very different map of Europe. Nationalism has played its role. I don't want to overstate the role of nationalism either.

I mean, because Otto von Bismarck, yeah, he used people who were fans of nationalism, who wanted to see, you know, nations linked together by same ethnicity or race or language and whatnot. And to better understand that movement, think about what Europe looks like at this point. You've got where it's been might makes right. So the Austro-hungarian empire is a fine example of that why on earth do the austrians control and rule over right all like a dozen or so other groups of people well it's because they just they just conquered yeah they conquered

they beat the hell out it's the same reason the ottomans uh you know have this have their massive but quickly dwindling uh empire and, at least at their peak, millions of Europeans and down to millions of North Africans and so forth, all the Middle East. It was a world of empires. So, nationalism is part at this point. We're not getting to that crazy, awful, extreme Not quite yet. these people to say, yes, you want a united Germany. I'm with you. Absolutely. He's really plain old school, though. He just wants to build an empire and he wants a German empire. Yeah. So yeah, he does his thing. We we have, of course, the Ottomans, the sick man of Europe. Let me kind of beat up on that that term called the sick man of europe because as i just said millions of people they controlled so much european territory this was truly a european and middle eastern

and north african yeah empire was massive um centuries old um but they're they're falling apart it's there's too much corruption, and probably just so much territory to cover, right? I think that's part of what has been the downfall of a lot of empires. Yes, overextended and not having the technology to be able to communicate quickly, fast enough. Ancient Rome splitting itself eventually into two. Yeah, that worked out real well. Yeah. But there are attempts to reform the Tanzimat.

If you're interested, you can go look that term up. But the Ottoman Empire being based in what is today Turkey. So, basically the people at the top of the food chain in the Ottoman Empire are your Muslim Turks. And like all these empires, it's multi-ethnic multi-religious and all these empires have an odd degree of um it's the word i'm looking for um i mean they've got authoritarian an authoritarian nature to them of course because they've been built by yeah by the sword in many ways what uh. Doesn't matter which empire we're talking about, British, French, Ottomans. But there's also a degree of tolerance for the people that they conquer.

Because you kind of, not to teach any aspiring dictators out there, but there's like a sweet spot, I guess you could say. Yeah, you don't want to totally come in and destroy everything because that just ticks people off. They have to have enough to lose if they actually rebel, right? Yeah. You want them to have enough that they're going to feel it. If they truly have nothing to lose, then they rebel. Yeah, exactly. So the Ottomans, just like the European powers and so forth, they've done a pretty excellent job, by and large, of hitting that sweet spot for centuries.

But at this point, they're very much falling apart. And what's the empire mentality? Ah, well, if you can't hold on to it, like they treat the world like the board game Risk. They truly do. So the French and British. I'll take that. They're snatching up bits and pieces. Full disclosure, I've never actually played Risk.

Have you not? No. I've always wanted to, but I know it's really long and I haven't had the chance. It is long. Risk, Monopoly, these are games that you're really signing up. Yes, you are. Yeah. I did buy David, Lord of the Rings Risk with like the metal ring.

Yeah. We haven't played it yet. Okay. I bought that from a few years ago. So it's a high priority. It is. It is. But I understand the concept.

Fair enough. That's all that matters. That's all that matters. And, you know, as we come out of Otto's world, as he's forced into retirement in 1890, you know, there's a reason he's saying there will be a war, and it'll probably be over some damned issue in the Balkans. He sees that power vacuum. He's created many of the alliances, and the alliances continue to evolve. But, you know, we've gotten to this place where we have drifted over 99 years from this European concert intended to prevent a total war to a place where we've got rigid alliances with secret clauses. There's, you know. Lots of backdoor deals.

Yep. Arms race. But, you know, we'll save that for the last segment. Let's go ahead and take a break and we'll discuss World War I minus America. Minus America. All right. From Fort Sumter to the Battle of Gettysburg. From the Emancipation Proclamation to Appomattox Courthouse.

From the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Compromise of 1877, from Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman, to Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. The Civil War and Reconstruction was a pivotal era in American history. I'm Rich. And I'm Tracy. And we're the hosts of a podcast that takes a deep dive into that era when a war was fought to save the Union and to free the slaves. And when the work to rebuild the nation after that war was over turned into a struggle to guarantee liberty and justice for all Americans. Look for The Civil War and Reconstruction wherever you find your podcasts. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from obscurity to become the most powerful

and significant figure in modern history. Over 200 years after his death, people are still debating his legacy. He was a man of contradictions, a tyrant and a reformer, a liberator and an oppressor, a revolutionary and a reactionary. His biography reads like a novel, and his influence is almost beyond measure. I'm Everett Rummage, host of the Age of Napoleon podcast, and every month I delve into the turbulent life and times of one of the greatest characters in history, and explore the world that shaped him in all its glory and tragedy. It's a story of great battles and campaigns, political intrigue, and massive social and economic change, but it's also a story about people, populated with remarkable characters. I hope you'll join me as I examine this fascinating era of history.

Find The Age of Napoleon wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back. And Kelsey, you're just saying you can tell this is the stuff I like talking about. Yep. We've hit my special nerd spot. I mean, more so probably, I don't know. It's probably on par with Poe. With Poe.

There you go. And the revolution is definitely a sweet spot for me. Yeah, well, I wasn't around for that. Oh, that's true. That's true. No, but again, we're into my dissertation area. I wrote World War I and into the interwar period. So, yes.

Yes. A lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Oh, let's be honest. Dissertation is nothing compared to this podcast. Cakewalk. Goodness. Yeah. Okay.

Well, 129. World War war one why don't we let's just pick up with the with the ottomans because i feel like that's probably a missing component for a lot of people i think yeah i think a lot of us don't remember that the ottomans because i also forgot that the ottoman empire was still around during world war one i thought that it was gone before that really i did but that's you're learning a lot about all those giant gaps in my knowledge that's okay especially of world war one kelsey you didn't take enough classes from me only one i know i know it was the wrong one, apparently. Apparently. Apparently. That's okay. So, yes, the Ottoman Empire has been around for a long time. It's controlled a lot of territory.

It really does start dwindling. It's across the whole 19th century. I guess I'd go with 18. I think it's hard to pinpoint an exact year. But see, I'm totally going to do that. So Muhammad Ali, not the boxer. Yes, Muhammad Ali Pasha. He's actually a commander within the Ottoman military.

He's sitting down to Egypt to calm a rebellion. He shows up and basically goes, you know what's a better idea? How about I just take over here? So Egypt becomes- I'm in charge now. Pretty much. And so Egypt kind of becomes a semi,

like he pays some deference to the sultan, but it's semi-autonomous at this point. I don't like that rule, so we're kind of going to ignore that. I mean, yeah. It's kind of how that sounds. He's basically the king of Egypt. But yeah.

Just Egypt or that whole area? Egypt, Egypt properly. And he feigns, and the, and the Sultan accepts the feigning. Like it's too much effort and cost for the Sultan to go and fight this. Just as it'd be too much effort for him to take full autonomy. Yes. So that's where they draw that line. Algiers, this is actually a favorite story of mine.

So 1827. All right. we're going to start there. The Bay of Algiers, that's the title of the ruler. And I'm talking about the city. And remember that Algeria is on the coast of North Africa. So its coast is the Mediterranean. So the ruler there in Algiers, we don't have an Algeria defined with the exact same borders that you would see today.

But he definitely, you know, he controls like the region. He has been trying to get funds from the French government for a few decades. So, during the French Revolution, the French revolutionaries borrowed money from a Jewish family in Algiers. This gets so messy, complicated. It's a blast. All right, follow me. So, money is lent by this very wealthy North African Jewish family. North African as in they're in, I'm just going to say Algeria. I've given the caveats. I'll just use the term Algeria. So, that's lent to France. France goes through a bunch of revolutions, or a bunch of revolutions, excuse me,

regime changes within the revolution. We get through the Napoleonic era and now beheaded King Louis XVI's brother, Louis XVIII is on the French throne, right? This is 1815 and on minus Napoleon's 100 day shindig. And Louis XVIII is like, no, I'm not repaying money that was used to decapitate my brother. Not interested.

Step off. Sorry, not sorry. Yeah. So, okay, that's going on. This merchant family, and again, you'll keep, how far do I want to go into this? Sorry. So Algeria, I mean, it's a very diverse place. You've got Berbers who are the indigenous group that lived there before Arabs swept through in the six, seven hundreds,

became the dominant population. So those are separate groups. Berbers have by and large become Muslim. They have their own languages, but also tend to speak Arabic because of course, you know, years of dominance. Then you've also got a sizable Jewish population in part because remember what happened back in 1492 with the Reconquista on the Iberian Peninsula that made modern Spain. Well, that Reconquista on the Iberian Peninsula that made modern Spain.

Well, that Reconquista was taking back, I mean, that's what the term means, right? So, you've got European Christians that push Muslim rulers out of Spain. And as they do so, they also kick all the Jews out, all the Jews who won't convert. So, they have, there's no choice here, right? It's forcibly convert to Christianity, to Catholicism or leave. And so we end up with a large or sizable, I'll say Jewish population in North Africa. All right, rounding all that out. That's how we get to the Algeria that we know and love in the 1820s.

So by this point, this merchant family has basically said, hey, listen, we'd love to pay our taxes. We just can't afford to because France will not give us that money back. And basically, I mean, it's kind of smooth and smart. Oh, yeah. He basically convinced the Bey that he's got to go take this fight for them. So now he's been trying to collect. Then we'll pay our taxes.

Exactly. Exactly. I like taxes. So the consul from France, the consul, you know, the representative, right? He appears before the bay. It's 1827. And he's sitting there, you know, on basically his throne. He's got a hand fan. That's an important part of the story here, right?

Oh, gosh. He's got his hand fan. And the consul, you know, as he's saying, hey, France pay up. The consul says, I won't get this word for word. Go look it up if you want to see it. But he says something to the effect of, in this point, it's King Charles X, Louis XVIII's brother. Still Louis XVI's brother, to be fair. But he says his most Christian king of France basically, you know, will not be making deference or being told what to do by a Muslim. It's something to that effect. Now, this guy's been trying for decades, right, to collect these funds. Yeah.

At least indirectly, you know, years. And his reputation was being a very calm guy. That set him off. So he gets up, he takes his hand fan, goes up to the French console, smacks him across, just like right across the face, right? Okay, you know, he lost his temper. Not his best moment. Fast forward three years, okay?

Three years. Charles X. He's been years, okay? Three years. Charles X. He's been sitting on this for three years. Well, he's over it, right? Like, whatever, that happened. Now, back in France, though, King Charles X, who's been pushing his luck, he's been trying to reassert absolute rule. Now, the revolution didn't yield a republic, right? You remember from the Statue of Liberty episode, I went into some of that history.

Yeah. You remember from the Statue of Liberty episode, I went into some of that history. So, yes, we're back to the Bourbon dynasty. Again, Louis XVI's family. But there are some rights and there are some things that are voted on and there's a meaningful legislature. The people want to see that expanded. This brother of Louis XVI wants to go back to Louis XVI days, though. He's trying to make it more of an absolutist monarchy. So what is he trying to distance himself by not naming himself Louis and hoping that they won't chop his head off?

You know, he should have tried harder if that was his game because they're pissed. And so in 1830, he's got revolution on his hands. He goes, I'm gonna make myself more popular. I know what I'll do. Military conquest. It's always a win. It's always, yes.

The people that have to go and fight are sure loving you for it. Again, it's a different era, right? I mean, he's super wrong, but in this world of might makes right, empires, etc., that's where he's coming from.

So, what does he do? He goes, hey, three years ago, the Bey in Algiers smacked my consul and the honor of France must be avenged. He uses that as pretext, sends an invading force. They take over Algiers. That's when Algeria begins to be conquered by France. You fast forward a few decades,

France actually annexes as they see it, the whole of Algeria. So whereas the rest of the French empire is a protectorate or some sort of colonial relationship, France actually considers this North African country today. Well, not today, right? But it's independent now. But I mean, what is there on the map today? They considered at this time, for decades, the last few decades of the 19th century, right into the 20th. So as we get to World War I, they consider Algeria a part of France. They call it French Algeria.

And you have about, by the time we get to World War I, you've got, geez, we're coming up on a million European, European descent people that live there. You know, and I kind of touched on them in the episode. So you have uh these french citizens they're full french citizens they send uh representatives you know senators uh to uh to the french senate in paris like that's very much considered france yes Though there is voting. This is where you get, no,

this is where, so the land is considered French and Europeans and Christians are considered French citizens. And after some debate and thought, it's decided that Jews also have to be, the commune decree is what makes that happen. So North African Jews are also French citizens, but Muslims are not. They are subjects. I will stop there. I've already gone. I hope this was interesting.

It was. I didn't know any of that. Right. So, yeah, now we're definitely into my jam. Yeah. I couldn't tell. Yeah. So, I'll put a cap on that. But my point is that's carved off from the Ottoman Empire. And it's being very much sucked into France. And this is all part of what, as the Ottoman Empire is being carved up and- It's falling apart. Yeah, falling apart.

It loses Tunisia also to France in 1882. The British come in and basically go, hey, semi-autonomous Egypt. You know what's a better idea? Us. Being semi-British. Yeah. So that happens about the same time.

The Balkans are continuing to lose territory. You know, we discussed that. And so, yeah, the Ottomans, they're still a sizable power though. I mean, think about it. You've got all of what's modern day Turkey, a little sliver of Europe, still all of the Middle East

as they go into World War I. And we caught where Winston Churchill, who, you know, we all tend to think of for World War II, but he has a sizable piece of World War I. Wasn't he like the Lord of the Admiralty? First Lord of the Admiralty. There you go. I forgot the first part, but I got the rest of it of World War I. Wasn't he like the Lord of the Admiralty? First Lord of the Admiralty. There you go.

I forgot the first part, but I got the rest of it right. Super important. Yeah. So he's basically, you know, your upper lord that's over the Royal Navy. And yeah, when it comes to the Ottomans, the big thing there, you know,

was him telling the Ottomans, the big thing there, you know, was him telling the Ottomans. So, remember the dreadnought ship itself. I mean, something of this in the cold open, but when the British came out with the dreadnought in 1906, this was just a game changer. So all this technology and all these changes in naval warfare, the dreadnought was massive. Yeah. And it just upended what it meant to be a warship. So everyone needs, basically everyone's got to change, right? You can't compete with old tech.

And so, in fact, there's some in Britain who are even mad at the man who basically invented it because they're like, you totally screwed it up. Here we had naval supremacy and then you had to go make this other ship. And now it's like, everyone's at zero. So Britain's cranking them out. The Ottomans have commissioned too, but then war breaks out.

And so that's when Churchill, like you can understand his actions as the first Lord of the Admiralty, but you can also see where there are unintended consequences here. So yeah, he says, hey, sorry, Ottomans, war's broken out.

We super need these ships. I got a requisition. I don't want to give these to you now. Yeah, no, we super want these because dreadnoughts, extremely valuable. You're not at war, we are. We're going to pay you.

And basically, they're going to pay rent every day that they don't hand over the ships. Well, the Hoffman's like, we don't want the money. We need the freaking ships. We do, in fact, want those ships. So, you know, you keep that context in mind when the Goebbels and the Breslau are now being chased, right the mediterranean and end up uh there and of course that yet another secret agreement you know germany has just hashed out uh days before um with uh with the grand dazir there in constantinople because it is still constantinople it is we learned 1930 is when it changed to istanbul i did wonder so i was running the episode like someone's gonna think

i'm getting this wrong someone's's going to think it's Istanbul. It is today. You know, I'm very careful. I try to be very mindful. Like the episode I'm finishing up right now, we're going to talk about Liberty Island. We'll save that for later. You'll see why. But it's Bedloe's Island still.

We haven't reached the 1950s. So Statue of Liberty isn't on liberty island it's on bedlows island same island different same thing yeah yep kelsey um i know i'm clear on my excited stuff here um let let me just circle out of the discussion on french algeria by pointing out uh again how global this war really is yeah right I think we kind of assume it's a European only conflict, despite being called World War I, right? I think so much of our focus is on the French and the German and the British and like all of that happening there,

because that's where all the fighting takes place. The majority of the fighting, right, takes place in Europe, but there's people from all over the world we do have fights in other theaters but yes like that's the majority of the fighting the majority of the fighting the majority of the casualties yeah are yeah are european i i guess the thing i hope that it was caught in the episode but the thing i'd highlight uh for you dear listener uh is that even these smaller, they feel like small numbers when we're talking, when we're talking about literally, as Kat highlighted in our discussion in the last episode,

millions of Russians died, right? That's just deaths. We're not even talking about how many total were in the war. Casualties. Yeah, just deaths. We're in the millions. So when you hear that, you might then hear me say, you know, a little over 400,000 Australians. And think like, okay, well, that's not a lot. Okay, let's keep in mind the relative population of Australia.

Yeah. That was huge. It's massive. It's a sizable percentage of the amount of people that they had. And that's where... Like capable of fighting. Yeah. Are sent. Of your male of age, because that's the crowd that goes where capable of fighting yeah are are sent of of your

male of age because that's 20 to 40 year old yep yeah this is a big part of the population so it redefines it's going to change the way uh you know australia new zealand uh as we know anzac day we mentioned that like it it's such a big deal uh because really, in many ways, creates their own national identity as something separate and apart from being a part of the British Empire, which is continuing to devolve with, you know, increasingly independent dominions and whatnot. Let's, I realize we've talked about an hour. We'll definitely have Molly trim this a bit, but we've gone a little bit over that. Kelsey, as I just spew, I'm sorry.

I know I'm so excited about all this stuff. We are in my space. Things I'm flying over too quickly? I don't think so. Okay, okay. Well, let me take us to two. We touched on the change in naval technology, similarly on the battlefield. There's a lot of weaponry change.

Yeah. I mean, you know, the Civil War saw some of this where weapons kind of redefined the way that you fight. But it's not. I would, maybe I'm being strong in my language here, but. This seems like a big jump. This is huge. This is modern warfare. Yeah.

You know, I mean, there are people right this minute, you've got journalists who are drawing comparisons to Ukraine and Russia right now, having a similar vibe to World War I. There's going to be plenty of that going forward because, yeah, you've got the full uh you know obviously weapons have evolved and changed even more since then but the machine gun is it's pretty much there yes it's the machine gun like those bullets fly fast and they don't stop yep uh you know repeating rifles they're down to well-oiled machines and in the hands of a trained soldier. It is rapid. It's just changed the game entirely. It is not the same war. And so officers are learning really quick.

They don't want to wear their flashy uniforms that make them stand out because, yeah, a sniper can hit you from super far away. Things are really accurate. You don't even know where it's coming from. Exactly. You know, and it's, it's such a juxtaposition. We're going to get into this more. The tank didn't emerge yet. I mean, it shows up at the sum, but you know,

where that episode kind of dropped off, we didn't introduce the tank just yet. I mentioned that it was coming, but it's such a fascinating situation where you still have the cavalry on you know mounted on horses you have just so many different fighting styles happening yeah it's a curious blend and of course it's very quickly giving way right like but yeah they're realizing oh we shouldn't charge single file over this trench wall. Yeah.

Yeah. That doesn't work so well anymore. You can't just walk your men out. That doesn't work with machine guns. That doesn't work with barbed wire. That doesn't work with mortars that can fire off. 20 rounds a minute. Yes, it has.

Yeah. And hence, we get the trenches and that complex trench system that can handle, you know, a week of bombing before the sun. And everyone just come out and be like, yup, that was a good rest. And just devastate the Brits. Let's actually go ahead and touch on that. I think this gets to the memory, which we've kind of danced around with like Anzac Day, the memory of World War I. As an American, we remember that World War I happened. That's kind of, in fact, one of my go-to examples that dates me in the classroom at this point.

It worked a lot better 10 years ago when I first started teaching at the college level. But there's this, I should know the episode. I've used it as an example so many times. But there's an episode of Friends where Joey gets cast in a World War I movie. Oh, yeah. Yep. I know this one. You know this one. Oh, yeah. Right? And all of them are like, who? Who fought in World War I? Of course, Joey's embarrassed because he's in the freaking movie, like he should know. Nobody knows.

Ross, the PhD. Yeah. And, you know, it's a joke and it's funny partly because it strikes a bit of a truth. We remember that it happened. But in Europe, even World War II, which is even more devastating, even more destructive, I hope that to date, the episodes, you've caught how deadly, and there's a reason we talk about a lost generation. So even though, yes, the American doughboy is going to head over and we're going to get into all those.

We're going to go in close now. We've set up World War I for the U.S. entry, and now we're going to go in close with the Americans for this year and change, 1917 into 1918. But in Europe, I mean, it's felt in their bones. They remember this. They're in it a lot longer and the and the destruction i mean france is basically just it's devastated the the male population is i mean it's felt and and i i only highlight france and park is again that's where i've yeah i've researched i published, I know more on France. It's part of why I brought Kat in, right?

I know she could speak to Russia just so much better than I could. Well, she did excellently. It was a fun chat. I loved it. Yeah, we'll have to have Kat back, especially as we get into Cold War and stuff. Yeah, there'll be more.

But, you know, things I've experienced in Europe that I would like to share, just two things. One, being in Britain in 2014, that summer, I did get to see this art exhibition at the Tower of London, the Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red. They put a ceramic poppy. So I talked about the poppy. I mentioned John McRae's poem. They put a single ceramic poppy for every man who died in World War I fighting for the Union Jack.

So that may have been a boy from Liverpool. Commonwealth. Yes, but that also includes, you know, a colonial soldier from Delhi, right? Yeah. Altogether, it's just shy of 900,000 ceramic poppies. So you walk by the Tower of London, this central piece of british history

right this iconic structure and uh i it's just it burned into my memory um i remember walking by it crowds are everywhere i mean it's it's overwhelming the number of people that are staying around i've never been such a large yet Yeah, it's one of those places that you're just, you can feel it. Yeah, and because it was so overwhelming. These, right, we're standing at some distance, but all those singular ceramic poppies taken together, Kelsey, it just, I mean, it looked exactly like, you know, the name of this art, this work of art.

I mean, it was Blood Swept Lands. It was a sea of red. And, you know, just to think that these innumerable poppies that my good eye couldn't distinguish, you know, from that distance, it all just blurred into a true sea of red. And I think all of those represent- One person. Yep.

Like a real person. Yeah. Someone who didn't come home. Yeah. Someone who got mowed down as a teen, a 20 something. This is a lost generation. Similarly, so I'm not to overstate my credentials. I got to do a summer program at the University of Cambridge in my undergrad.

So not a degree. It was just a cool summer where I did get to kind of experience studying there. And I became very close with one of my professors, Peter Martlin. Anyhow, I've been back and visited him. And during that time, I got over to Europe quite a bit, um, as a young professor doing, doing research. And this is during the centennial of world war one, right. From 2014 up to about 2018 and, uh, Pembroke college at the university of Cambridge. So if So if you've read the Harry Potter

books, you know, the houses, right? Colleges work differently in the UK and you can kind of see that in the Harry Potter books. Those houses, that's kind of more what the colleges are like. So it's not like the College of Humanities and the College of Engineering. You might have houses that kind of specialize in a thing. Houses, I just want Harryry potter on you but there are ballpark i don't remember the exact number it's about 30 colleges at the university of cambridge and each college like you get accepted to the university then you got to get accepted to a college okay okay anyhow so pembroke is one of the colleges there and um he's been working on uh uh well he's been publishing a lot of stuff on World War I for the centennial. And he had some involvement in this.

So he'd always show me their war memorial because every time I'd show up, I'd basically be there every summer. So, you know, that's 2015, 2016. And every, I believe it was every month. I hope I'm getting this correct. Every month that one of their students died, they added another little stick cross to the memorial that they had set up there inside their college's grounds. And so every summer I'd come back and just see the expanding number of crosses. Now, again, this isn't for the University of Cambridge. I'm talking about one of close to three dozen.

Again, a little bit under that. One of about 30 colleges at the university. Total, I believe it was about 300. 300 students from this relatively small. Just from this one small. Yeah. And so, Britain, France, Russia, Europe, they felt this war on a level that we didn't. And that's not to dismiss all the very real sacrifices and fighting you're going to see in the next few episodes. Oh, absolutely not.

It's sizable. But grasp what a cataclysmic disaster this is. Yeah, the fighting was not here. We didn't have people fighting through our farms you know like right they did yep their towns are being exploded yep and like it's a very different feel and it's so much longer you know that's there is true war fatigue by the time by the time we the the united states yeah are showing up yeah well on that happy note on that happy note you know i i will say it's an it's i am so grateful that i'm i happen i mean yeah i chose my career but i feel very fortunate that it's enabled me to go to these places to see these sorts of things.

And yeah, I know I blabbed a bit on this one, but I hope that sharing some of those things were meaningful. I mean, those memorials are, you know, at the Tower of London, at Pembroke College. They are just burned into my memory. And I think something like that, it's hard to forget because it's a visual representation of this thing that's kind of just an abstract concept for a lot of people. And as we get through the total warfare, that is World War I and, I mean, World War II with the Holocaust,

we're going to get into, we're going to get into... It's we're going to get into some more pretty intense stuff. Yeah, it's going to be heavy. That, frankly, should very much be remembered. Absolutely. All right, Kelsey, we'll go ahead and call it there. Thank you for joining me as always. Happy to be here. All right.

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