History That Doesn't Suck - 133: Heading “Over There:” “Black Jack” Pershing & Creating WWI’s American Expeditionary Force

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

“Lafayette, nous sommes ici!” (Lafayette, we are here!) This is the story of a nation building an army from nothing. After years of trying to avoid entanglements with and war in Europe, President ...Woodrow Wilson has asked Congress for a declaration of war against Germany. But that’s easier said than done. The US might be the world’s greatest industrial producer and have a large population, but will the nation’s population of heavily first- and second-generation American citizens (or non-citizens), speaking roughly 50 different languages, answer the call to arms? Can production be turned from civilian-focused (or British and French focused) to the needs of an instantaneous expeditionary force? In short: is it even possible for the largely isolationist United States to train and muster a world-class army? And if it is, who can take the reins of this formidable force that will be far larger than any that the nation’s most storied military commanders–from George Washington to Ulysses S. Grant–ever led? And can that leader keep the British and French from trying to take those reins? From “amalgamating” US troops into their own armies? You’re damn right there is. Welcome to America’s story, General John J. “Black Jack” Pershing. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, dear listener, and welcome to Conflicted, a podcast that tells stories of the Islamic past and present to help you make sense of the world today. Hosted by me, Thomas Small, author and filmmaker, and my good friend, Eamon Dean, an ex-Al-Qaeda jihadi turned MI6 spy, Conflicted is prepping its fifth season, which is coming to you very soon. And in the meantime, you can sign up to our Conflicted community. Subscribe to Conflicted wherever you get your podcasts. The Civil War and Reconstruction was a pivotal era in American history. When a war was fought to save the Union and to free the slaves.
Starting point is 00:00:45 And when the work to rebuild the nation after that war was over turned into a struggle to guarantee liberty and justice for all Americans. I'm Tracy and I'm Rich and we want to invite you to join us as we take an in-depth look at this pivotal era in American history. Look for The Civil War and Reconstruction wherever you find your podcasts. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and as in the classroom, my goal here is to make rigorously researched history come to life as your storyteller.
Starting point is 00:01:15 Each episode is the result of laborious research with no agenda other than making the past come to life as you learn. If you'd like to help support this work, receive ad-free episodes, bonus content, and other exclusive perks, I invite you to join the HTDS membership program. Sign up for a seven-day free trial today at htdspodcast.com membership, or click the link in the still dark morning, Friday, August 27th, 1915, and everyone is sound asleep in the Pershing home
Starting point is 00:01:53 on the Presidio U.S. Army Base in San Francisco, California. That's saying something because this is a full house. First, we have 35-year-old Helen Frances Pershing, known to her friends as Frankie, or just Frank. Next, we have 35-year-old Helen Frances Pershing, known to her friends as Frankie, or just Frank. Next, we have her four children. Three girls and one boy, all younger than 10. Perhaps they're dreaming of their husband and father, John, better known as Jack. Oh, they miss and love him, as he does them.
Starting point is 00:02:21 But Jack didn't dare to take his family with him on his current assignment to Fort Bliss, just next to the border town of El Paso, Texas. Not while Mexico is in the midst of revolution. Loving them more than life itself, Jack sleeps better knowing they're sleeping soundly, more than a thousand miles away on the California coast. And tonight, or this morning rather, they even have some friends under the same roof.
Starting point is 00:02:43 One is Mrs. Church. The others include Frankie's old Wellesley roommate and fellow army wife, Ann Boswell, and her two little boys. All are dreaming sweet dreams. Until the smell of smoke wakes Ann, that is. Light pours in from the crack under her second story bedroom door. Ann wonders, is that a lamp? Is Frankie up? Anne opens the door. A gust of smoke rushes into the room as the woman takes in the sight of a fire swallowing the hallway
Starting point is 00:03:13 and everything downstairs. Anne screams out for her friend, Frank! Frank! Then she sees her. Across the flame-filled hall, Anne catches a glimpse of Frankie dashing into the girls' room. There's nothing more Anne can do, so turning to her six and three-year-old sons, Anne leads
Starting point is 00:03:33 them onto the roof of the back porch. Cinders dance around her and the wooden house crackles as she screams for help. Soldiers answer the call, one at a time, and Anne drops her boys off the roof and into the men's waiting arms. Then Anne jumps. She injures her back, but will live. Mrs. Church and Pershing family employees have escaped as well. Whew. But wait.
Starting point is 00:03:59 Where are the Pershings? A rescue team braves the inferno. Thick, dark smoke fills this tinderbox of a house, but Jack's orderly, a black man named William Johnson, finds six-year-old Warren Pershing. They quickly get the small, barely conscious boy outside. Warren's survival, however, is where the Pershing family's good luck ends.
Starting point is 00:04:23 After the flames are extinguished, firefighters search the rest of the home. Walking past charred walls, they find the girls' room. It's a tragic scene. Nine-year-old Helen and seven-year-old Anne each lie in their separate beds, their rigid, lifeless hands
Starting point is 00:04:40 still clinging to their sheets. Frankie is pinned under a heavy, collapsed beam. She too has expired. And yet, even in death, her motionless arms tenderly hold and seek to protect another little body, that of three-year-old Mary Margaret. Frankie left this world trying to protect, or at least console, her babies. A mother to the bitter end. It's later that same day. Now covering the tragedy of the Pershing family, Norman Walker of the Associated Press
Starting point is 00:05:16 places a call to General Pershing's headquarters at Fort Bliss. Norman works out of nearby El Paso and is confident that he recognizes the voice saying hello on the other end as one of the general's aides. And so, Norman launches in with a very matter-of-fact tone. Lieutenant Collins, I have some more news on the Presidio fire. A pregnant pause follows. Finally, the voice on the other end answers. What fire? What has happened? It's in this moment that Norman realizes he isn't speaking to the lieutenant. He's speaking to the general, to John J. Black Jack Pershing himself. And worse, Jack clearly doesn't know yet, meaning it falls to Norman to tell him. Unsure what else to do,
Starting point is 00:06:01 the newsman reads the report before him, personally informing the general that, as of a few hours ago, he's a widower. That all three of his little girls are gone. That he's now a single father to his lone surviving child, his son, Warren. Norman finishes reading. Jack exclaims, Oh God! My God! He simply repeats this over and over. The shock, the sorrow, it's just too much. Jack immediately takes a train to San Francisco. Upon arriving, seeing one full-length coffin and three little coffins,
Starting point is 00:06:43 sends the grieving general to the floor. He makes it through these next few days, as well as the funeral in Wyoming, albeit with great difficulty, then returns to Texas with his boy, Warren. And what's this? Looking through the mail that's come in his absence, Jack sees a letter from his wife, sent before her death. He opens the envelope, knowing it contains one last communication from his dear lost love. Her final words, though she didn't know it. And so, Jack reads, do you think there can be many people in the world as happy as we are? I would like to live to be a thousand years old if I could spend all of that time with you. That sentence, so consoling yet devastating all at once. Such loss, such
Starting point is 00:07:36 loneliness. It's a burden to which few can ever relate. But Jack's life is one of unusual burdens and full of death. In less than two years from this moment, this grieving father will lead the greatest armed force the United States has ever seen in the deadliest conflict the world has ever known. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. A lamp, a live ember from the hearth. Whatever the cause, that fire only deepened John J. Blackjack Pershing's already rigid, professional persona that brings so many under his command to find him, quote, easy to admire, but hard to like, close quote. Ah, if only they could see his wartime letters to little Warren. They would likely be shocked at the general's tenderness and
Starting point is 00:08:57 affectionate ways of signing off, including phrases like, good night, many kisses, papa. But having now glimpsed Jack as a father, we turn to his professional side as he leads the including phrases like, good night, many kisses, papa. But having now glimpsed Jack as a father, we turn to his professional side as he leads the endeavor to transform the United States' modest defensive army into a massive expeditionary force that can turn the tide in a global war of millions of seasoned, hardened soldiers.
Starting point is 00:09:21 Doing this properly should take years, but years is a luxury that Blackjack doesn't have. We'll start with more background on our commander, John J. Blackjack Pershing, following him from childhood through his varied military career prior to the U.S. entering World War I. From here, we'll see how the United States' large population and role as the world's greatest producer of steel doesn't mean it can build a large army overnight. Drafting, training, funding, all of these are very real struggles. Finally, we'll see how these headaches are playing out for Blackjack and his first U.S. divisions in France. Tension and tempers are high as the British and French press Blackjack to rush
Starting point is 00:10:03 his fresh recruits into the trenches. More than that, to amalgamate his forces with theirs, that is, to put his men in the British and French armies. But is this a war-winning necessity, or do these European empires merely see Americans as cannon fodder? Jack will face tough decisions as what's best for his troops, his nation, and the Alliance don't always align. So, ready to build a massive army and head over there as the Americans, or the Doughboys as they're known, step into the trenches with the Poilus and the Tommies to take on the Fritzes? Good.
Starting point is 00:10:41 But first, we begin a few decades back in Civil War era Missouri, where a young John Pershing is about to form a first and traumatic memory. Rewind. It's about 4 o'clock on a pleasant Saturday afternoon, June 28, 1864. The future general's father, John Fletcher Pershing, is at his general's store in Laclede, Missouri. I can't say what he's doing at this exact moment, but suddenly his clerk, Henry Lomax, bursts through the door. He shouts, Bushwhackers are riding into town. They're headed right this way. That's right. Bushwhackers.
Starting point is 00:11:25 We've met some of these Confederate-supporting Civil War outlaws before, like William Bloody Bill Anderson, back in episode 67. And right now, 16 to 30 of them are riding into town, under the leadership of Captain Clifton Holtzclaw. Coming to a stop, the captain bellows out for all to hear. There are some abolitionists in this place that ought to be executed. This looks bad for John. In this state of split loyalties, his family is pro-union.
Starting point is 00:11:55 He even dares to fly the stars and stripes over his general store. It's a massive flag that his wife, Anne, sewed for him. And the bushwhackers mean business. They soon start rounding up all the men in town and looting the stores, including the Pershings. Moving quickly, John grabs his shotgun and slips out the store's back door. Now armed, he stays on the back side of the buildings, moving four doors down to his home. There's only one thing on his mind right now,
Starting point is 00:12:26 protecting his wife, Anne, and their two sons, three-year-old Johnny and two-year-old James. Inside the house, bushwhackers are questioning Anne on the whereabouts of her Stars and Stripes flying husband. Protectively spreading her arms over her two terrified children, she tells them over and over that he isn't here. Thankfully, the men are called from the house
Starting point is 00:12:48 to join the other bushwhackers in the street. John then enters. Heading to the front room, he looks out the window, which perfectly frames the gathering bushwhackers outside. He raises his gun and takes aim. Anne jumps up. She begs him to drop the gun. He looks at his wife, his shaking children. John knows that if he fires, he'll be killed no matter how many he
Starting point is 00:13:14 takes with him. It pains him to watch these outlaws destroy his store, but he lowers the gun. John loses over $800 in the raid, but at least his children will still have a father. Just shy of four years old at the time, Johnny will have only a hazy recollection of these bushwhackers in years to come. But one thing will stick. To quote him, I clearly recall that I was badly scared.
Starting point is 00:13:43 Historian Tim McNeice summarizes what this moment meant, writing, Close quote. Years will pass before he sees death again. In fact, Johnny, or John, as the growing boy comes to prefer, has no plans to see it ever again. He just wants to go to college. But despite his family making some good money and land speculation after the war, his father loses all but their home in the panic of 1873.
Starting point is 00:14:23 College will have to wait until young Pershing can pay for it himself. He saves up over the years by working as a field hand, a janitor, and eventually as a teacher for black students. This enables John to attend Kirksville Normal School with his brother in 1879. The school's for teachers, which isn't exactly what John dreamed of, but it's what he can afford. After studying hard for two years here, John sees an ad in a local paper. Notice is hereby given that there will be a competitive examination held for the purpose of selecting one cadet for the military academy at West Point. Huh. John's never considered a military career, but this would give him the full college education he wants.
Starting point is 00:15:06 Besides, John tells himself, he can always leave army life later and leverage this college education into law, teaching, or anything else. He decides to go for it and succeeds. John heads to West Point in January of 1882. He's a bit awestruck being at the institution that trained many of the Civil War greats and will never forget standing with his fellow cadets presenting arms as Ulysses S. Grant's funeral train passes by in 1885. West Point is also where young Pershing drops John in preference of Jack. He finishes his studies the following year, in 1886, and as he graduates, the class president and senior cadet captain gets to choose. Infantry, artillery, or cavalry?
Starting point is 00:15:52 Oh, that's an easy one for Jack Pershing. The cavalry. Graduating in the midst of the Indian Wars, Jack is sent west for the next five years, where he fights in campaigns against the Apache and the Sioux, and sees places like New Mexico, Arizona, and South Dakota. He moves up the ranks, but also displays some thinking that's a bit ahead of his time, numbering among those army officers that show some respect for indigenous peoples. All the while, Jack's reputation as a tough but diligent leader is growing. That reputation pays off in 1891 when he lands a job as the professor of military science and tactics at the recently established University of Nebraska. Jack teaches here for four years.
Starting point is 00:16:37 In 1895, the mid-30s lieutenant takes command of the famed all-black Buffalo Soldiers 10th Cavalry, so named because Native Americans tend to think the soldier's hair resembles command of the famed all-black Buffalo Soldiers 10th Cavalry, so named because Native Americans tend to think the soldier's hair resembles that of the buffalo. He leads the 10th in Montana, where they're assigned to deport a band of Cree who, after fighting against the Canadian government, had fled south to Montana and South Dakota seeking sanctuary. Without resorting to violence, Jack and the black soldiers of the 10th complete their mission, rounding up and transporting the heartbroken Cree back to the Canadian border.
Starting point is 00:17:10 Jack proves quite comfortable leading the 10th's black soldiers. Little surprise considering that he previously taught at two different schools for black students, or Negro schools, as they're known. He summarizes his feelings about race, saying, quote, Most men, of whatever race, creed, or color, want to do the proper thing,
Starting point is 00:17:28 and they respect the man above them whose motive is the same. Not everyone in the Army shares Jack's view, though, and when he leaves the Buffalo Soldiers to return to West Point for a teaching gig in 1897, the cadets express their disdain for the rigid, disciplined instructor by insulting him for having led black troops. Behind his back, they call him N***a Jack. Both the insult and meaning will shift in time. The nickname softens to Black Jack
Starting point is 00:17:58 and is soon embraced as a reflection of Jack's hard, unrelenting toughness. It's around the same time that Black Jack goes to a month-long military tournament in New York City, and while there, he meets a police commissioner named Theodore Roosevelt. The two hit it off, talking about their time out West. They meet again soon thereafter in the Spanish-American War.
Starting point is 00:18:20 Returning to the 10th Cavalry, Jack and the Buffalo Soldiers are with T.R. and his Rough Riders at the famous capture of Kettle Hill in the Battle of San Juan Hill in 1898. Now, I already told you that story back in episode 105, but it's here that Jack sees his first real military campaign. Afterward, he writes to a friend, quote, Our regiment has done valiant service.
Starting point is 00:18:47 No one can say that colored troops will not fight, close quote. Leaving Cuba, Jack heads to the Philippines where, as we recall from episode 107, the U.S. is replacing Spain as the colonial power. In 1899, Jack is assigned to pacify uprising indigenous Muslims, the Moros. Learning from his time in the American West working with Native Americans, Jack believes the best way to end conflict is to seek mutual understanding. He studies the Moro dialects and culture, reads the Quran, and forms close relationships with Moro chieftains. He drops the hammer when absolutely necessary, but sees that as a last resort. Future tales of him executing Muslims with bullets dipped in pig's blood are completely false. A February 1903 editorial in
Starting point is 00:19:32 the Manila Times summarizes well Jack's four years of success in the Philippines. Quote, he has won friendship where he might, fought when he had to, and has generally conducted himself in a manner to bring credit to himself and the Army. Close quote. Captain Jack Pershing returns to the States that year a hero, and is honored as his war buddy, President Teddy Roosevelt, drops his name in a speech to Congress, advocating for the promotion of military officers based on merit. Now assigned to the U.S. Army General Staff in Washington, D.C., Blackjack meets Senator Francis Warren's daughter, Helen Frankie Warren. She's 20 years younger than him, but for both,
Starting point is 00:20:14 it's love right away. Frankie writes to a friend that she's, quote, danced every dance but one and have lost my heart to Captain Pershing irretrievably. Close quote. Similarly smitten, Black Jack tells a friend, I've met the girl God made for me. It takes a whole year before Jack admits that he's in love with her and another five months before their first kiss. Jack then proposes on Christmas Day, 1904. They rush the wedding because of Jack's appointment to observe the Russo-Japanese War, timed not just a month later, on January 25th, 1905. Among the many in attendance is Jack's friend, President Theodore Roosevelt. It's in Tokyo, in 1906, that Jack has his first dance with scandal as TR promotes him to Brigadier General, over 862 more senior officers. Some say
Starting point is 00:21:07 it's only because of Jack's presidential friendship. Others are quick to point to his marriage to the senator from Wyoming's daughter. TR won't let any of this block Black Jack's rise though. The Rough Rider president writes to Jack's father-in-law that, quote, to promote a man because he marries a senator's daughter would be an infamy, and to refuse him promotion for the same reason would be an equal infamy, close quote. But a more salacious accusation also threatens this promotion. Back in the Philippines, the Manila American claims that, while stationed there, Jack fathered two children with the Filipina mistress. Jack denies it and
Starting point is 00:21:46 sails to the Philippines to obtain an affidavit from his friend, Joaquina Ignacio, the supposed mistress, in which she and her husband likewise deny the alleged affair. Ever supportive, Frankie writes to Jack, I love you wholly, devotedly, with all my strength, for always and always and always. The scandal passes. Jack's promotion goes forward. With this new rank, he stays in the Philippines for the next six years. First as commander of Fort McKinley, then as governor of the Moro Province. Then, in 1913, he's given command of the Presidio of San Francisco. Ah, but as we know from today's opening, Black Jack is soon off to Fort Bliss, Texas,
Starting point is 00:22:30 to handle the growing tensions on the border amid the Mexican Revolution, which we also learned about in episode 127. This is where Jack first meets the man he'll chase for little under a year, Pancho Villa. It's about 5 p.m., Wednesday, August 26, 1914. Surrounded by staff officers and dressed in a Stetson hat and Norfolk jacket, bulging over a brace of six shooters, General Francisco Pancho Villa stands with his khaki-clad rival, General Aldero Obregón, on the Santa Fe Bridge that spans the Rio Grande
Starting point is 00:23:05 to connect Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, and the American city of El Paso, Texas. Just last month, these two generals were on the same side in a constitutionalist-led coalition determined to end the presidency-seizing Victoriano Puerta regime. But with victory, the coalition has lost its unifying force of a shared enemy. Tension is rising between Pancho and more conservative generals like Alvaro, and this makes the U.S. government nervous. Several cars approach the bridge from the American side. From one of them emerges General Black Jack Hershey. He's invited the two Mexican generals to El Paso to discuss peace and stability
Starting point is 00:23:45 in Mexico. Jack's men stand at attention as the generals cross into the United States. A parade of 20 cars drives through El Paso on their way to Fort Bliss. Vocals line the route, shouting, Viva Villa! They take some time for a photo op, where disciplined and professional blackjack allows a rare toothy smile in stark contrast to the Mexican General's stoic stares. Arriving at Fort Bliss, they're greeted by a band playing the Mexican national anthem. Pancho isn't a drinker, but the group heads to Jack's quarters for drinks and conversation. Toasts are made to the United States and to Mexico.
Starting point is 00:24:32 By the end of the inebriated evening, Jack's got what he hoped for, an impression of both generals, of Alvaro Obregón and of Pancho Villa. Blackjack comes away from that night more impressed with Alvaro, whom he calls suave and cultured. In contrast, the American general sees Pancho as suspicious and distrustful. Nevertheless, Jack shows his realism, writing to Chief of Staff Hugh Scott that, quote, Villa seems to be a strong man and may be the man of the hour, close quote. As we know from today's opening, Jack's still here at Fort Bliss a year and a day later when a fire in an old wooden army house rips his wife and three daughters from his life. Shattered by this loss, but glad to at least have his son Warren,
Starting point is 00:25:20 Black Jack is all business after Poncho and his men provoke the United States by attacking Columbus, New Mexico, as I'm sure you recall from episode 127. Poncho carries out this attack in January 1916. Black Jack is then sent with thousands of soldiers on a manhunt through Mexico that March. They stay at it until early 1917. Poncho evades capture, but Secretary of War Newton Baker nevertheless calls this punitive expedition a success as, quote, its real purpose was a display of the power of the United States as a means of controlling lawless aggregations of bandits, close quote. West Point, the Indian Wars, the Spanish-American War, the Philippines, and even Mexico. Blackjack might be heartbroken, but he's seen about as much army life as any American officer of his generation can. And in the process,
Starting point is 00:26:10 he's proven that, though not the warmest figure, he's a level-headed, disciplined leader. Such experience and traits will be needed after April 2nd, when President Woodrow Wilson calls on Congress to declare war on Germany. Someone's got to lead this army. Someone's got to build this army. And immediately. Woodrow has a short list of possible leaders for this impossible task, but it most certainly does not include the man who drops in unannounced the very next day. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? Well, I've got the podcast for you.
Starting point is 00:26:47 I'm Sean Piles, and I host NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. On our show, we help listeners like you make the most of your finances. I sit down with NerdWallet's team of nerds, personal finance experts in credit cards, banking, investing, and more. We answer your real-world money questions and break down the latest personal finance news. The Nerds will give you the clarity you need by cutting through the clutter and misinformation in today's world of personal finance. We don't promote get-rich-quick schemes or hype unrealistic side hustles. Instead, we offer practical knowledge that you can apply
Starting point is 00:27:19 in your everyday life. You'll learn about strategies to help you build your wealth, invest wisely, shop for financial products, and plan for major life events. And you'll walk away with the confidence you need to ensure that your money is always working as hard as you are. So turn to the nerds to answer your real world money questions and get insights that can help you make the smartest financial decisions for your life. Listen to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. When Johan Rall received the letter on Christmas Day 1776, he put it away to read later. Maybe he thought it was a season's greeting and wanted to save it for the fireside. But what it actually was, was a warning, delivered to the Hessian colonel,
Starting point is 00:28:05 letting him know that General George Washington was crossing the Delaware and would soon attack his forces. The next day, when Raw lost the Battle of Trenton and died from two colonial Boxing Day musket balls, the letter was found, unopened in his vest pocket. As someone with 15,000 unread emails in his inbox, I feel like there's a lesson there. Oh well, this is The Constant, a history of getting things wrong. I'm Mark Chrysler. Every episode, we look at the bad ideas, mistakes, and accidents that misshaped our world. Find us at ConstantPodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. It's just before 3 p.m., April 3rd, 1917, and the guard at the White House's Northern Gate on Pennsylvania Avenue is watching a car pull up. President Woodrow Wilson doesn't accept unannounced visitors, so the unnamed Sentinel is ready to dismiss the vehicle.
Starting point is 00:29:07 But then he sees who's driving. It's Alice Roosevelt Longworth. And her passenger is... No way. Her father, the rough-riding former president, Theodore Roosevelt. The guard immediately waves him up the curvy driveway. The car stops in front of the North Portico. Just as bespectacled and mustachioed as he was
Starting point is 00:29:29 when he called this magnificent mansion home eight years ago, though older and heavier, the former president makes his way inside. Speaking with White House usher Ike Hoover, T.R. asks to see Woodrow Wilson. Teddy read in a newspaper about the professorial president's speech last night calling for war and would like to pay his compliments.
Starting point is 00:29:50 Ike answers that Woodrow's in a cabinet meeting, but perhaps they could visit this afternoon. Alas, T.R. can't. He's just passing through Washington. Teddy's just returning home from Punta Gorda, Florida, where he harpooned the second largest devilfish ever measured and only has a small window before his next train to New York. Ah, a shame.
Starting point is 00:30:11 The naturalist hunter asks Ike to give his compliments to Woodrow, leaves his card, then hops in the car with Alice to head back to the train station. A crowd and reporters throng TR before his train departs. They want to hear the former president's thoughts on President Woodrow Wilson's call for war. He's happy to oblige. The president's message is a great state paper, which will rank in history among the great state papers of which Americans in future years will be proud. It now rests with the people of the country to see that we put in practice the policy the president has outlined
Starting point is 00:30:46 and that we strike as hard, as soon, and as effectively as possible in aggressive war against the government of Germany. We must send troops to the firing line as rapidly as possible. Defensive war is hopeless. We must, by vigorous offensive warfare, win the right to have our voice count for civilization and justice when the time for peace comes. I, of course, very earnestly hope that I may be allowed to raise a division for immediate service at the front. Of course, Teddy Roosevelt wants to raise a volunteer division and charge off to France. No surprise, given that the colonel, as the former president still prefers to be called, raised and led the volunteer Rough Riders Cavalry Regiment during the Spanish-American War. But that's not going to happen. Woodrow Wilson has no interest in volunteer units,
Starting point is 00:31:39 nor, I would wager, in giving his erstwhile rival the limelight. Still, TR's heartbreak over not joining all four of his sons at the front does bring us to some very pressing questions in April 1917. Uh, what army does the United States even have to send to war? And who's going to build and lead it? I know. Between its population of roughly 100 million and position as the world's largest industrial producer, the United States is plenty capable of fielding an impressive army. But even with the Indian Wars, the Spanish-American War, and the Philippine-American War, the largely isolated sea-to-shining sea nation simply hasn't needed one,
Starting point is 00:32:19 not since the Civil War ended half a century ago. The U.S. has a respectable navy of 14 modern battleships and 23 pre-dreadnought vessels, but in early 1917, the entire U.S. Army consists of 107,641 men and only ranks 17th largest in the world, behind Serbia. Now, that figure is slightly deceptive as each of the 48 states has its own military. These descendants of the colonial militias that are the National Guard add another 132,000 bodies,
Starting point is 00:32:51 and the Marines bring another 15,500. But even taken all together, the U.S. military is woefully small for a global conflict of millions. In fact, Germany's recently returned to unrestricted submarine warfare, banking on the U.S. not being able to mobilize a large military fast enough to prevent a second Reich victory. Whew, sounds like Uncle Sam has his work cut out for him. And picking the right commander for this yet-to-be-born Europe-bound American Expeditionary Force, or AEF, will be crucial. Enter General John J. Blackjack Pershing.
Starting point is 00:33:27 Now there were other candidates. General Fightin' Fred Funston could have done the job had he not died of a heart attack in February. While General Leonard Wood might've got the gig had he not disgusted Woodrow Wilson and his secretary of war, Newton Baker, with his willingness to throw Teddy Roosevelt under the bus in an obvious bid to curry favor. But in Blackjack, the duo sees exactly what they need. An experienced, disciplined,
Starting point is 00:33:51 no-nonsense commander who puts his nation before his own interests. Blackjack even has the look. A tall, square-jawed, mustachioed 57-year-old with a fairly full set of graying hair? Oh yeah, if World War I were a Hollywood film, he still would have gotten the part. Selected on May 10, 1917, Jack sails out of New York for England on the White Star Line's RMS Baltic on the 28th with an accompanying staff of just over 180. Among them is the same trustworthy personal aide from the hunt from Pancho Villa, a young officer by the name of George S. Patton. Of course, building this army isn't a one-man operation, and that same summer,
Starting point is 00:34:36 Congress is passing wartime legislation. This starts on May 18, 1917, with the Conscription Enabling Selective Service Act. Congress is plenty nervous about this. The first and last time the U.S. relied on the draft, during the Civil War, there were riots. So this time, things will work differently. First, the faceless federal government won't do the conscripting. Instead, 4,648 Select service boards across the country will make decisions locally. Second, the rich can't buy their way out this time. Some still wonder, though. In an immigrant nation where one-third of the population is a first or second generation
Starting point is 00:35:16 American, will such recent immigrants answer the call to arms? They most certainly do. On June 5th, 10 million men in the initial required age range of 21 to 31 register for the draft. By the end of the month, over half a million are called up as 32 new army camps or cantonments are built at breakneck speed across the United States. The logistical struggles to train this new force are real. Communication isn't easy. 31% of the army can't read. And while most recruits speak English,
Starting point is 00:35:51 the literate ones are sending letters home in 49 different languages. Okay, looks like the army will teach basic literacy and English. Supplies are too few as well, especially as US gun makers like Remington and Winchester have to retool after years of catering to the Brits. Again, the army adapts. Civilian-clothed soldiers drill with broomsticks rather than rifles.
Starting point is 00:36:12 Many won't touch a gun until they get to France, where supplies will continue to come up short. Fast-tracking an army is also expensive, so how will Congress foot the bill? First, through income tax, or as progressive Senator Robert La Follette? First, through income tax, or as progressive Senator Robert La Follette puts it, a, quote, conscription of wealth, close quote. The War Revenue Act of 1917 increases corporate taxes to 6%. For personal income taxes, it lowers exemptions
Starting point is 00:36:39 and raises the highest tax bracket on multi-million dollar earners from 13% to 67%. 15% of American families are paying income tax now, and the top 1% is furnishing 80% of the revenue. That will only cover about one-third of the war's cost, though, so Treasury Secretary William McAdoo turns to war bonds. The quickly formed War Supporting Committee on Public Information's 75,000-plus volunteer public speakers, aka the Four Minute Men, give four-minute speeches encouraging democracy-loving Americans to give their Uncle Sam a liberty loan by purchasing these liberty bonds. It's enormously successful and raises a staggering $21 billion. That will do the trick. Yet, for all the talk of liberty, Congress is also limiting free speech. In 1917, that means the Espionage Act. In 1918, we'll bring the Sabotage Act and Sedition
Starting point is 00:37:34 Act. Together, these laws make almost any naysaying against the war or government illegal. One crazy example is Robert Goldstein, who spends years in prison because his revolutionary war film, The Spirit of 76, is deemed anti-allied powers propaganda for depicting 18th century British soldiers as the bad guys. Meanwhile, socialists become the big target. In fact, when socialist Eugene Debs
Starting point is 00:37:59 stands as a presidential candidate yet again in 1920, he'll do so from prison. Books are banned, radio stations seized. In short, the Espionage, Sabotage, and Sedition Acts so forcefully trampled the constitutional right to free speech that even federalists who supported the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798
Starting point is 00:38:18 are rolling over in their graves. From the Herbert Hoover-led FDA to the temporarily public-run railroads, rapidly mobilizing for the Great War means the federal government is playing a far larger role in the lives of Americans than ever before. Some of these changes are temporary. Others will prove permanent. But we can't dwell on the domestic side of things all day. We need to follow the first American troops heading to the Western Front this summer. Even if they still need more training. In late June, 1917,
Starting point is 00:38:52 15,000 men from the recently organized First Division, aka the Big Red One, joined General Black Jack Pershing in France. They arrived just in time for the 4th of July. That Independence Day, three companies and a regimental band marched through the streets of Paris. Well, march is a strong word for these half-trained soldiers, but the French cheer anyway. The parade ends at Pic-Pou Cemetery, at the grave of the Marquis de Lafayette. A fitting location. Feels like someone should say something.
Starting point is 00:39:24 Not one for speech making, Blackjack looks to the eloquent colonel, Charles E. Stanton. Standing before the large French crowd, Charles bellows out, what we have in blood and treasure are yours. In the presence of your illustrious dead, we pledge our hearts and our honor
Starting point is 00:39:41 in carrying this war to a successful conclusion. A beautiful thought, but the colonel tugs at every French and American heartstring with his next line. Addressing America's eternally resting French founding father, Charles proclaims, Lafayette, nous sommes ici. That is, Lafayette, we are here. Pure poetry. The crowd erupts with approval. The colonel's words were sincere. But rather than blood and treasure, all the 1st Division can really offer,
Starting point is 00:40:20 as it makes a new home some 150 miles east of Paris at Gondre-Coule-le-Château on July 10th, is to keep training. That's not enough for the French and British brass. They're impatient. They're running on fumes. French General Robert Nivelle's disastrous offensive recently caused the famous French mutinies in which tens of thousands of Poilus made it clear that they'll defend their country,
Starting point is 00:40:38 but not needlessly charged to their deaths. So the Allies need Americans in the trenches now. No, yesterday. They press General Black Jack Pershing to amalgamate U.S. forces with theirs. That is, to insert U.S. troops into British and French companies. Doing so, they claim, will let his rookie troops learn from their experienced soldiers and get the doughboys to the front immediately. That's a hard no from Blackjack. He won't allow Americans to be treated as reservists or cannon fodder in the British and French armies.
Starting point is 00:41:11 They will fight under their own leadership, maintaining their identity as Americans, and in the process, prove that the American soldier is every bit the equal of a Tommy or a Poilu. Besides, this is what the president wants. Blackjack has secret orders stating that, quote, "...the forces of the United States are a separate and distinct component of the combined forces, the identity of which must be preserved."
Starting point is 00:41:35 Close quote. Even so, the American commander is eager to see his troops progress and has no patience with the 1st Division's slow progress. It's October 3rd, 1917. With little notice given, General Black Jack Pershing has arrived at Gontre Cours to assess the 1st Division's training. He watches as the troops demonstrate a new method they've been working on for attacking an enemy trench. When the exercise is over, Blackjack
Starting point is 00:42:05 turns to the 1st Division's commander, General William Siebert, and asks him to critique it. William stumbles over his words. And this is when Blackjack loses it. He rips into William, calling him a terrible general and commenting on the poor training of the troops. He does this publicly, in front of William's own officers. One young captain is furious. He feels that was unfair and starts to pipe up, but Blackjack is uninterested. He shrugs and walks off. The young, lowly captain won't let it go, though. Stepping forward, he grabs the commander of the American Expeditionary Force by the arm and says,
Starting point is 00:42:49 General Pershing, there's something to be said here, and I think I should say it because I've been here longest. Blackjack's piercing gaze burns into the young captain's face. The other officers look on, mortified. Finally, the commander coolly answers, What have you got to say? The captain doesn't hold back. They lack equipment, clothes, even shoes, and have poor sleeping conditions. Then he dares to point out where the failings actually lie. With higher command. Not Big Red One's general. Calm but evidently upset, Blackjack responds,
Starting point is 00:43:22 Well, you must appreciate the troubles we have. He then starts to walk back to his car. Emboldened, the captain shouts after Blackjack, Yes, General, but we have them every day and many a day, and we have to solve every one of them by night. In adequate supplies, the slow arrival of more troops, constant pressure from the French and British to send insufficiently trained Americans to the front under their command, it's nothing but stress
Starting point is 00:43:49 for American leadership as they try to birth an army. Meanwhile, this bright, bold young officer, Captain George C. Marshall, is sure that his career as an officer just died. He's wrong, but others are dying. Exactly one month from this early October day, the AEF will see its first deaths in the trenches of the Western Front. question you might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from obscurity to become the most powerful and significant figure
Starting point is 00:44:51 in modern history. Over 200 years after his death, people are still debating his legacy. He was a man of contradictions, a tyrant and a reformer, a liberator and an oppressor, a revolutionary and a reactionary. His biography reads like a novel, and his influence is almost beyond measure. I'm Everett Rummage, host of the Age of Napoleon podcast, and every month I delve into the turbulent life and times of one of the greatest characters in history, and explore the world that shaped him in all its glory and tragedy. It's a story of great battles and campaigns, political intrigue, and massive social and economic change, but it's also a story about people, populated with remarkable characters. I hope you'll join me as I examine this fascinating era of history.
Starting point is 00:45:40 Find The Age of Napoleon wherever you get your podcasts. It's an early, pitch-black morning, are keeping a watchful eye while manning the trenches in the Sommelier sector just a few miles northeast of Nancy, France. That's right, after months of training at Gondre-Cours with the French 47th Chasseur Division, a.k.a. the Blue Devils, American soldiers are at the front. It's a small taste, though. Quite intentionally, these doughboys have been sent to one of the quietest sectors so they can experience real trenches with little to no risk. Basically, this is advanced training. Or at least, that's how it's worked right up to this point. Suddenly, German artillery comes crashing down near the American lines. This continues for 45 minutes while the 7th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment sneaks across 500 yards of the man's land. American machine gunners open fire as the German troops close in but the turn late.
Starting point is 00:46:54 The line is in front. Hand to hand combat ensues as German soldiers pour into the American trench. The rookie Americans have never fought in close quarters for their lives before, let alone in the dark. The seasoned German soldiers, aware they're fighting the inexperienced doughboys, use this to their advantage. Asked who he is by his silhouette using perfect English, Corporal James Gresham answers, I'm an American too, don't shoot.
Starting point is 00:47:22 And that's when the German, with an excellent American accent, shoots him in the head. This German lightning raid wasn't a battle. It was merely a skirmish that resulted in less than 20 American casualties, 11 taken as prisoner, five wounded, and three dead. Nor were those three doughboys the first American deaths of the war. Perhaps as many as 200 Americans have already died fighting in the British, Canadian, French, and yes, German armies. Even the AEF has seen one previous death, a doctor killed when German aviators bombed a hospital last month. But with no disrespect for these American lives lost, Corporal James Gresham, Private Merrill Hay,
Starting point is 00:48:05 and the nearly decapitated Private Thomas Enright of the 16th Infantry are the Great War's first Americans to die while fighting in the name of America. Woodrow Wilson may have signed Congress's war resolution half a year ago, but the lifeblood of these three young men from Indiana, Iowa, and Pennsylvania seeping into the French soil gave more meaning to that resolution than the President's Inc. ever could. This isn't lost on Americans back home reading about these deaths in the newspapers. Nor is it lost on French General Henri Bordeaux as he surveys the trenches the next day with
Starting point is 00:48:41 the young American captain, George C. Marshall. The French commander arranges an impressive funeral service that includes taps and a 21-gun salute. George will never forget this kindness. But such kindness is a small reprieve among the ongoing strains and struggles of the American Expeditionary Force as 1917 draws to a close. Internally, the AEF is feeling growing pains as its ranks swell to 175,000 in January 1918. These include a few regular Army divisions, as well as the National Guard's 26th Yankee Division and 42nd Rainbow Division, so-called because its Chief of Staff, Douglas MacArthur, compared the division's multi-state national representation to a rainbow. Yet, the shortage of supplies remains dire. American minds drift to George
Starting point is 00:49:32 Washington at Valley Forge while Blackjack will later recall, quote, we were literally beggars as to every important weapon except the rifle, close quote. The French and British step up to provide arms and clothing, yet even this goes a bit sideways. The Rainbow Division's heavily Irish-American 165th, or as it was previously known in the Civil War, the Fightin' 69th, is less than enthusiastic about their army-issued British tunics. Thank goodness for their chaplain, Father Francis Duffy. He calms the lads and acts to ensure this doesn't happen again before too many tunics are burned in protest.
Starting point is 00:50:13 Of course, the biggest frustration the AEF has with its supply-giving allies is their continued pressure to amalgamate. Blackjack likewise continues to resist. Not only does the American commander disapprove of the Allies' training methods, which excludes open warfare to focus exclusively on trench warfare, but again, he will not send his troops into battle less than fully trained or under a foreign flag. In fact, the word Allies is perhaps too strong.
Starting point is 00:50:40 Seeking to preserve American identity and avoid any George Washington cautioned against entangling alliances with Europe, President Woodrow Wilson prefers to call the United States an associate power, fighting alongside the allies but not as one of them. Yeah, this is getting awkward, especially as Russia's exit from the war enables Germany to strike hard in France that March. We don't want to get too deep into the Russian Revolution and the end of the Eastern Front, especially since that's what episode 130 was for, but here's a quick refresher. Early last year, 1917, a long-coming revolution broke out in the empire's capital of Petrograd, or as you and I will later know it, St. Petersburg. Tsar Nicholas II abdicated in favor of his brother, who in turn refused the crown without
Starting point is 00:51:30 a new constitution going into effect first. A provisional government of conservatives and liberals took the reins, while the Russian socialists formed a soviet, or in English, a soviet, meaning a council. These socialists fell into two major groups, the more moderate, compromising faction, unjustly known as the minority or Mensheviks, and the more extremist, unyielding revolutionary faction that with no greater accuracy but far greater PR sense called themselves the majority or Bolsheviks. Their founder and leader, Vladimir Lenin, was long ago exiled, but amid the chaos of the Russian Revolution, the Germans were happy to get him a one-way ticket
Starting point is 00:52:10 on a no-papers-checking train back to Petrograd last April. He then led the Soviet in overthrowing the provisional government in late 1917's October Revolution. Focusing on solidifying its new government, Lenin's Bolshevik government was happy to hit pause on the war and signed an armistice with Germany that December. The Second Reich saw blood in the water, though, and demanded that Soviet-led Russia grant Eastern Europe independence as several separate states, over which, of course, Germany would exert control.
Starting point is 00:52:39 The Bolsheviks hated the terms, but with Lenin's insistence, they accepted. Giving up claims to the Ukraine, Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, and more, Russia signs the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk on March 3rd, 1918. Germany sees opportunity. After nearly four years of war, finally, it doesn't have to fight on two fronts. This frees up 50 divisions or roughly 750,000 German troops that can now head to the Western Front. Germany's highly effective and daring general, Erich Ludendorff, intends to use these soldiers to devastate the Allies before the United States can shift the scales. And thus it is
Starting point is 00:53:18 that, while Colonel Douglas MacArthur is earning a silver star and going temporarily blind from a gas attack in early March, the 2nd hike is moving this massive force of experienced warriors west to hit France harder than it has since 1914. This campaign, Germany's quote-unquote victory drive or spring offensive, begins in the vicinity of the Sun River on March 21st, 1918. And by God, it starts strong. Following a massive barrage of some 6,600 pieces of artillery across 50 miles of trenches,
Starting point is 00:53:55 more than 70 German divisions advance against less than 30 British divisions. Well-rested, seasoned, expert German soldiers known as stormtroopers lead the way. The sun sets on more than 7,000 British corpses as another 21,000 British troops are taken as prisoners of war. It's a grim situation for the outnumbered Allies. The British Fifth Army has been all but demolished. The Allied lines have been pushed back several miles. Seeing an even greater need for coordination, the Supreme War Council names French General Ferdinand Fauche
Starting point is 00:54:28 as General-in-Chief of the Allied Armies, or Persuader-in-Chief, as historian David R. Woodward puts it, since each Allied nation's Commander-in-Chief retains tactical control of his respective army. The Allies bring the Germans to a halt, but with casualties racking up by the hundreds of thousands in a mere two weeks, both Britain and France's respective prime ministers, David Lloyd George and Georges Clemenceau, beg President Woodrow Wilson to send more Americans.
Starting point is 00:54:54 Training be damned, the war will be lost without them. In the words of Britain's Minister of Munitions, Winston Churchill, They used to be made of all these great numbers of men, their organization, their training, their ammunition, their food and clothing, all were questions to be solved later on. Naturally, the Allies continue to press for amalgamation, for American troops to be absorbed under British and French command. Indeed, the Allies' outlook grows even more dire as the Germans renew their offensive on April 9th. This time, they hammer the British Third Army and a Portuguese division in Flanders. The Tommies hold, but everything is on the line. If the Germans break them here and push through
Starting point is 00:55:39 to the sea, the war is lost. British General Sir Douglas Haig makes that clear two days later, April 11th, with his special order of the day, which reads, The war is lost. British General Sir Douglas Haig makes that clear two days later, April 11th, with his special order of the day, which reads, quote, There is no other course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man. With our backs to the wall, the safety of our homes and the freedom of mankind alike depend upon the conduct of each one of us at this critical moment.
Starting point is 00:56:04 Close quote. With their backs to the wall, the British hold the line. But with heavy casualties and a knowledge that the British spring offensive isn't over, another attack will come. And in this environment, the British and French press General Jack Pershing all the more to amalgamate his forces. Fine. Of those American forces fully prepared to fight,
Starting point is 00:56:27 Jack gives the French four regiments, four black regiments. But that story is for another day. Right now, the pressure on Jack to amalgamate his forces is as high as ever, and the first issue raised a few weeks later at the Supreme War Council. It's May 1st, 1918. We're in northern France, 12 miles south of the English Channel, in the town of Abbeville,
Starting point is 00:56:54 where Allied leaders of the Supreme War Council are just sitting down for a meeting. There are too many here to introduce everyone by name, but they include the British, French, and Italian Prime Ministers, as well as officials in top brass from these three countries plus the United States. It's a room full of mustaches. So, so many mustaches. And Europeans dead set on convincing General Jack Pershing to let his troops fight in their armies. French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau, or the Tiger as this fierce French politician who speaks fluent English is known, pipes up first. He's heard tell of an agreement between the U.S. and Britain for the 120,000 American troops arriving in May to augment British forces, and in his mind, fair is fair. He says France should get June's shipment of 120,000 Americans.
Starting point is 00:57:44 Blackjack answers, He says France should get June's shipment of 120,000 Americans. Blackjack answers, There is no agreement between my government or the commanders-in-chief or anybody else that any single American soldier should be sent to either the British or to the French. He further clarifies that British ships are merely helping to transport six divisions of American infantrymen and machine gunners to France. Roughly 120,000 soldiers. That's it. No further agreements were made. Prime Minister David Lloyd George now speaks up. He suggests that Americans coming in June should go wherever they need is greatest. The decision regarding the allocation of American troops in June should be taken when that month arrives. That is to say, the decision depends upon who would have to bear the brunt,
Starting point is 00:58:29 the British or the French. Supreme Commander Ferdinand Fauche adds his thoughts. He has a slightly different take. The British suffered very heavily at the start of the present battle, but lately the French have also had grave losses. As such, he suggests that May's shipment of Americans should go to the British, yes, but June's, ideally all infantry and machine gunners,
Starting point is 00:58:55 should go to the French. The French and British prime ministers both nod in agreement. This is enough for Blackjack. He's fine seeing his divisions in the trenches with the French or British while they train, but listening to them speak of Americans like their own draftees is too much. He pushes back. I speak for the United States government and for myself
Starting point is 00:59:15 when I say that we look forward to a time when the United States will have its own army. I must insist on it being recognized. David Lloyd George quickly agrees. It would be unreasonable and impertinent on our part to treat American troops as drafts for the British army. But proving himself worthy of his nickname, the Welsh Wizard, he then pivots to pitch immediate amalgamation with an American army being a good long-term goal.
Starting point is 00:59:42 Referring to the German spring offensive, David cautions, we are, however, now fighting what is probably the decisive battle of the war. The impasse continues. Frustrated, Ferdinand Foch gets hypothetical. You are willing to risk our being driven back to the Loire? Yes, I am willing to take the risk. The Welsh wizard counters. Can't you see that the war will be lost unless we get this support? This is when the American commander hits his limit and the table. Gentlemen, I have thought this program over very deliberately and will not be coerced. With those words, Jack walks off. Amalgamation raises so many issues. Differences of training, national prestige, perceptions back home, and of course, crucially, would the Brits
Starting point is 01:00:37 and French protect American lives like their own? And yet, this is when the brash young officer, George C. Marshall, believes Black Jack, quote, rose to greatness, close quote. Seeing Germany's menacing position as the weeks pass, the American commander sets all of these very real concerns aside. He's still not okay with long-term amalgamation, but on May 28th, Jack puts his imperfect American-accented French to use, as he tells General Ferdinand Fauche. Infanterie, art, artillery, aviation. All that we have is yours. Use them as you please. It's a magnanimous move.
Starting point is 01:01:35 One received with relief and joy by the Allies. But they can't celebrate just yet. With only 162 divisions to take on Germany's 200 divisions in France, the Allies are still outnumbered in this fight. Can they win? Will Blackjack's undertrained and ill-supplied expedition force ever become an independent American army? We'll get those answers in the episodes to come. Thank you. Begle, Charles and Shirley Clendenin, Charlie Magis, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, David DeFazio, David Rifkin, Denki, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moods, Jennifer Magnolia,
Starting point is 01:02:37 Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppock, Joe Dobis, John Frugaldugel, John Boovey, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Ridlavich, John Schaefer, John Sheff, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Justin M. Spriggs, Justin May, Kristen Pratt, Karen Bartholomew, Cassie Conecco, Kim R., Kyle Decker, Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham, Mark Ellis, Matthew Mitchell, Matthew Simmons, Melanie Jan, Nate Seconder, Nick Caffrell, Noah Hoff, Owen Sedlak, Paul Goringer, Randy Guffrey, Reese Humphreys-Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Sarah Trawick, Samuel Legasa, Sharon Thiesen, Sean Baines, Steve Williams, Creepy Girl, Tisha Black, and Zach Jackson.
Starting point is 01:03:10 What did it take to survive an ancient siege? Why was the cult of Dionysus behind so many slave revolts in ancient Rome? What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen. And Jenny. from Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy perspective.
Starting point is 01:03:34 Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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