History That Doesn't Suck - 149: WWI Epilogue

Episode Date: January 1, 2024

The Episode to end all … World War I episodes. Professor Jackson sits down with Kelsi Dynes to talk through all the things that didn’t make it into the final Great War episodes and go big picture on the Meuse-Argonne, Armistice, and Treaty of Versailles. Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. HTDS is part of the Airwave Media Network.  Interested in advertising on the History That Doesn't Suck? Email us at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BDC. Financing. Advising. Know-how. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, joined as always by Kelsey Dines.

Hey, y'all. And today, it is time to wrap up World War One. Yes it is. But. After almost a year. Yes after yeah pretty much a calendar year. But of course Happy New Year. Yes. It is when this comes out at least it is January 1st. January 1st. Because. Officially 2024. We release every other week no matter what. So Happy New Year or whenever you listen to this. Yes. So first of all, a little bit of business though, before we conclude.

Get into the. Yes. Get into concluding World War I. A reminder that as we've fallen into the tradition of doing, we will start the new year with a few second edition episodes of earlier episodes. We'll continue marching through the revolution. So through January and into February, you can expect just a few of those. So we will be back on our regular story-driven history in a chronological fashion of the United States on February 26th. Yes. Do enjoy those. I love revisiting. I like the remasters.

The second editions are a lot of fun. So I know you haven't heard it yet because I haven't even recorded it as we're having this conversation. I'm going to record it later today. I am so thrilled with how Washington's Crossing of the Delaware has. I've been excited for that one. Yeah. I like to listen to the older audio and then the new one and try and figure out where the new stuff that gets added in. Well, per usual, of course, the nuts and bolts.

I mean, the history is the history. Yeah. This was one in particular where as I was working through it, I went, oh, I have learned my craft. Okay, let's reword here and reword there. And just so many, as I keep finding, so many places where I didn't see how I could fit details that now I do see how I can fit. Yeah, a lot more practice. Oh, yeah. So now it's just packed all the more. I mean, who doesn't need to know exactly how many casks of rum the Hessians had and didn't drink at Trenton?

But I digress. Let's not get into that. Let's talk about World War I. Let's do get into that. Let's talk about World War I. Let's do it. Okay. Oh, and yeah, we've got nothing to note from listeners this time around. So yeah, diving in then. Musargon. That's what we need to get through Musargon. We need to talk about this armistice and of course, the Treaty of Versailles. Some pretty heavy episodes.

They were some pretty heavy ones. So Musargon. Some pretty heavy episodes. They were some pretty heavy ones. So, you're all gone. Let's do it. Kelsey, you were mentioning before, and I always appreciate some of the things that you bring up. You're a well-educated person. You better be.

You're my former student. So I'm responsible and part of your art. That's true. If I'm not, it's your fault. But I love that you help rescue me from PhD world a bit, where, you know, as you read through the scripts or listen through,

I like knowing the things that either you kind of pause on or, you know, need a second pass because it tells me, okay, that's, either it needs more now or epilogue. Let's discuss it. So pulling from that, you'd mentioned the 100 days offensive. So let's go ahead and situate that.

The 100 days offensive. So let's go ahead and situate that. The 100 days offensive, to remind everybody, that was an enormous multi-pronged attack. That was all of the allies. They're hitting the Germans simultaneously. So always happy to have an excuse to use my French. As I quoted Ferdinand Fauche, tout le monde a la bataille, everyone to battle. So it's the British, it's the French, it's the Americans. And I tried to mention the 100 Days Offensive as much as I could, while of course, maintaining the fact that this is a American history podcast. A single part of. Yes. And so, you know know i am genuinely very happy with the overall coverage that we

managed to give the great war it was great having a deputy provost kat brown come on and talk russia with me and yeah yeah but uh that said yeah there are plenty of significant battles that the british are engaged in the french that I either mentioned the name in these episodes, or we did simply blow past them because in the American story, it's the Musargon. So it's a piece, right? There's the big hundred days offensive and the Musargon is just a piece. So many ways we can go from here. Let's talk politics for a second. Oh, boy. Yes. Not literal politics, but just the politics of the alliance. So it's worth recalling that Feldman Fulch did not want the Americans to carry out the attack at Samuel. And that was, I'm sure you remember, Kelsey.

Yeah, I do. There was nearly a fist thrown oh blackjack's clearly not a guy you want to piss off but the attack went forward they made their compromise the americans go to uh the meuse argonne but let's again remember that they are a part of this big hundred days offensive and we even had the French Fourth Army fighting directly on the American left. So, all that said, let's recollect that French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau and our Allied Supreme Commander Ferdinand Fauche, both of them, well, but especially Clemenceau, the tiger. He is felt like a little bit much to actually use his French nickname. Yeah. That we translate to English, the tiger, the tiger. But I do like the tiger. Yeah, it carries.

But he does not like Blackjack at this point. He is convinced Blackjack sucks that the American forces are being basically poorly managed, poorly handled. I find it so ironic that at the same time we've got Philippe Pétain who's saying, oh yeah, you're going to make it nowhere, Blackjack. This is,

you'll be lucky, you know, if by Christmas you can start scratching through the first line of the multi-layered defenses here. So we've got

the Hindenburg line. The Hindenburg line itself actually has defenses in front of it. You know, this is like, it's a very large defensive. Yes. The Hindenburg Line itself actually has defenses in front of it. You know, this is like... It's a very large defensive structure.

Well, one of, I don't remember which source I read it in, but one historian compared it to a honeycomb, right? Like just layer after layer. Well, you've been in this for years and not a lot of movement, right? So what do you do? You build more trenches. Yes. And the Germans,ans especially this was their last line of resort that was their thinking so this hindenburg line was like yeah this thing

breaks we're screwed that's where they threw all of their manpower every defense yes so strategy so here we are that they're at their last but that means yeah they've built this thing up this is it is intense what they've got and of of course, let's also remember the ground, right? This is as one American journal put it, I mentioned it in episode 142. This was months ago now. So I don't remember which general, but that it was like a natural fortress. Like basically God had come down and made a fortress and the Germans are holding it now. They're like, this is ours. Yes. Plus machine guns. So it's hard fighting. You've got Pétain who's telling Blackjack, yeah, good luck. You can't do anything. There's no way.

Meanwhile, there's the tiger who's like, oh, these Americans, they suck. They should be doing more. All the while Blackjack's saying, my men are getting slaughtered and that's how your men are progressing elsewhere. Anyhow, so that's the politics. So it's adding to that ongoing friction that we caught through the entire coverage of the war, going all the way back to when Blackjack and the American Expeditionary Force first arrived in France in 1917. And they're the allies. You know, the French, the Brits are both like, great, just throw your boys into our lines. We'll train them quicker.

We'll get them on the front. And Blackjack's struggling with, and I'm very intentional wanting to mention this right now, struggling against that in part because one, he does question, will they care about his men's lives, right? Doesn't feel like they're actually going to do anything to save them. They're just going to use them to throw at the Germans. Exactly. So he's not going to let his doughboys be cannon fodder.

I'm sure the French and British would frame that differently, but that's a genuine risk, right? That was his worry. So, and then another worry is for all the blood and treasure America is about to spend in war, to use that, that's a very common phrase. He wants to make sure that, frankly, America gets credit for that. So we don't want to put in all this effort and all these lives to just kind of be pushed aside. Precisely. So to make sure that that is not the case, that that's all part of why he's so adamant that, no, there will be an American army. So he keeps building, right?

We've got corps and divisions and- All the structure. Yes, all the structures building up slowly until finally we've got an army. Yeah. That happens at Samiel and then at Muzagon, the American First Army continues on and he even organizes the American Second. So this is really like the culmination, you know, of demonstrating- Of what he's been working for this whole time. And he manages to do it without punching failed non-faux. It was a great accomplishment.

It probably was. Oh no, 100% it was. Yeah, no, I'm- I don't know if I would have had so much restraint. I deliver that with some sarcasm, but that is a 100% compliment. And, you know, that's one of the things I do love. I love about history. It's one of the things I enjoyed bringing into the story. And, of course, I'm so grateful to Riley, to Arby, Will, who all, you know, helped me tear through various sources. I can think of at least one or two specific encounters between Ferdinand Foch and Blackjack that Will dug them up.

You know, he's the one who tore through the memoirs and journals and whatnot and found Blackjack's personal account. Ah, here's where they nearly went at it. Fantastic. Because it was a great, you know, firsthand account. It's one of the times that you can actually get into the head of somebody that you're talking about. Yes. And know what they're feeling because they talked about what they were feeling. And this is what makes history come to life. You know, this is when it stops being names and dates.

You know, you realize here's this massive, bloody, awful, deadly war raging. And, you know, you've got these generals who care deeply about all of that. I mean, I was struck very much reading about Blackjack sobbing in the back of his car, more or less, I mean, maybe pray isn't the right word. I understand the man was Christian in his, oh, I don't remember his precise uh denomination

but he probably wouldn't consider himself to pray to his wife like in a you know anyhow but he's talking to her right he's talking to his deceased wife and which i think is a fairly common thing to do yes yes it is uh but you know he's so here he is sobbing in the back of his car, talking to his deceased wife about all these doughboys that are dying. He's wracked with fear, concern, right? The things to show you, this guy's human. For all the like hardcore facade that he puts on for the doughboys as a general, oh, he hates this. And so then he's got to deal with this very different personality. Now, fosh means well, too, you know, know but yeah personalities get just like in our lives right personalities

conflict and if it's somebody you have to work very closely with yeah you you're going to get annoyed with them and talk about high stakes yeah right this this is think about how irritated you know i've had students get irritated working on a group project together. Imagine managing a war where the bodies are counted, you know, the dead bodies are counted by the millions. I can understand if there were times where they wanted to slug each other. And I think it's really meaningful to be able to get into their heads and see that humanity yeah i think that often we we see world war one kind of with a bird's eye view right like yeah we look down at it oh it's this really awful war it lasted four years right like but we don't really dive deep into it and the people honestly on both sides these are just people that are doing well what they're told to do or what they think they should be doing. You know, that's one thing I really enjoyed doing the Christmas special.

Just that first opening part with throwing back to the 1914 Christmas truce. Which I was glad that we did that, even though it wasn't technically an American part of it. But it's such a special story. It really is. And for exactly what you're hitting on, Kelsey, I mean, they're human. And even when we talk about these wars where, I mean, World War I, I feel the evidence is pretty strong not to go to the Versailles Treaty level of you're guilty for everything, Germany. But, you know, yeah, Germany is absolutely an aggressor. Of course. Hands down. I would put more of the lion's share over there. But that's, you know, that poor German citizen.

Yeah. He had nothing to do with it. He's just a conscript getting shot at. Yeah. Yeah. And probably being told certain things. Of course. From his, you know, his leadership that makes him feel like, well, we're in the right here.

Well, and let's recollect that to go ahead and jump to the Treaty of Versailles, that was one of the points that the German delegates actually made as they were confronted with these very harsh terms. And they're feeling this bait and switch. They came to the table on Woodrow Wilson's terms and now they're looking at this going, these are not the 14 points. No, this is very different. But yeah, we'll table that for the most part. But the thing I want to point to is the count fires back

that our people were convinced we felt that we were fighting a defensive war. Yeah. Again, I look at the evidence and say, well, that's- It's not quite that way, but that's what they'd been told. Precisely. Yep. They didn't really know it otherwise.

Anyhow, yes, the humanity of the soldiers, I'm glad we were able to get to that in 1914, and it's something to keep in mind throughout all of this. Yep. Particularly, you know, as we do seek to understand the armistice and the treaty. I do want to go down that road. But first, there are just two other things I want to mention specifically about Meuse-Argonne. And then we'll get to those. Do it.

So, one is, I want to talk about Blanc-Montreux. I could not figure out a way to work it into the story. I tried to work this into my coverage of Musargon, but it was such a click out. There's just no seamless way. So here we are. This ridge, it's on the American left. It's under the French Fourth Army.

Now, as I was able to work into the Musargon a little bit, we know that the Harlem Rattlers are fighting over there. Also, we have some other Americans that are fighting over there under the command of Major General John Lejeune. I think I'm saying Lejeune correctly there. Marines, feel free to let me know. I'll double check it before I say his name in the next episode. I know I checked it in previous episodes. I heard different pronunciations among Marines, however, in some conversations. Beauty of language.

Yes. So that's anyhow. So General Lejeune, he's such an incredible figure. He was at Belleau Wood. He's now the commander of the U.S. 2nd Division, but he's fighting under the French. So he has this incredible victory. Some historians call this the most brilliant tactical victory in the whole war. And he's totally left out of the narrative, though.

That's true. I've never heard of him. Well, so he... So I'm excited. And he's totally left out of the narrative, though. That's true. I've never heard of him. Wow. So he. So I'm excited. Well, I'll tell you, every Marine listening right now is beyond excited because he later becomes the 13th Commandant. And Commandant's the title of your, basically the leader of the Marines, right? The very top. So in many ways, he even, well, he basically saves the Marines as a branch, keeping it

in existence. So he becomes commandant just after World War I and really is the preserver of the Marines. But before he does that, why does he become the commandant? Because he was a badass in World War I, right? Pella Wood. And now to this, Blanc Montbridge, he's forgotten for two reasons. One, again, he's fighting under the French, but two, he does everything Blackjack doesn't want him to do. So as we've mentioned in the episodes, Blackjack is a believer in the rifle.

He believes in the traditional old school way of fighting. The Brits and the French are both saying, dude, no. We got to move on a little bit. It's trench warfare and it's artillery. Yeah. No, we tried that early on. It leads to a slaughter. It didn't work.

Blackjack's a stubborn man. So he's still pushing, you know, people, you got to get out of the trenches, got to advance. It's the riflemen that win the day. Well, Lejeune is over there with the French going, yeah, artillery is pretty awesome. Let's rely on artillery. He crushes it. And so not only is he not with the French going, yeah, artillery is pretty awesome. Let's rely on artillery. Let's do that.

He crushes it. And so not only is he not with the main American army, but yeah, the last thing Blackjack really wanted to do, I suppose, is toot the horn of. Of somebody that kind of just did everything he didn't want. And not just somebody who didn't do what he wanted, but a Marine who didn't do what he wanted. You've even got the like, you know, the separate branches conflict. Yeah. Okay. So we had that.

The other thing I want to mention, and my gratitude to David, he's a patron of HTDS and he's a native American. He gave me more details after I talked about the code talkers of World War I, which. Yeah. I didn't realize that there were code talkers in World War I. I hear about the ones in World War II- Totally. As if it's this new idea and they were the first ones, they came up with it for World War II, but obviously that's not entirely accurate.

No, and I'm sure we would have talked about it more had it caught on earlier in the war, but it happened so late in the game, you know. And you can see World War I actually paving the path for World War II, both in the code talkers, but also we had Colonel Billy Mitchell with the U.S. Air Service talking about this crazy idea that maybe we could have troops with parachutes jump out of planes, right? The paratrooper. Yeah. Maybe we could have troops with parachutes jump out of planes, right? The paratrooper. Now, it didn't happen. But all these new approaches that this industrialized, technologically advanced 20th century, well, basically the germ for all these things, they are there. We've got the basic tech. Of course, technology will advance more by the time we get to World War II.

But you see, this is kind of where they start building off of a lot of these things. Exactly. Exactly. So, David gave me greater statistics and just a bigger view of Native Americans fighting in World War I. So, I want to share a little bit of that. I did not know that there were 10,000 Native Americans volunteering in the Red Cross. There were 12,000 who volunteered. Let's again emphasize that word, volunteered, not drafted. Volunteered. 12,000 volunteered as soldiers. And I also was not aware he mentioned that the traditions of indigenous peoples in battle, that they've kept that going. So even in World War I, World War II, I got the impression still to today, I'll be a little bit vague there just to make sure I don't misrepresent what David's saying.

But like counting coups, stealing horses in the midst of battle, these are things that they still try to do. And we'll, I'm sure, get to this in World War II, but Joe Medicine Crow managed to complete all of the tasks in battle in World War II. So anyhow, that'll be a story for a later day. But, you know, just a broader picture across the history of the world, you often have marginalized groups participating in war in a way to demonstrate their valor, their humanity, their contribution to the nation or whatever it may be. And that is, there's no exception to that in U.S. history. When we think about the courage of Black troops in the Civil War, the courage of Black troops

we've heard about here in World War I, right? Same thing here with native troops. So I just sometimes wonder if listeners think or wonder like, oh, why is there always like an emphasis on the extreme valor of troops from minority groups? You're going to find that in the history of pretty much every nation. This is the moment where many of them are going, I'm going to prove. I'm going to show you. Yeah. I won't only me. I will exceed. Yeah.

Anyhow. So I want to say thank you. Thank you to David. Let's take a quick break. And time for some armistice. Boy. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? Well, I've got the podcast for you.

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Crucial to all of this is understanding that the armistice is not the official end. Yes. Right? Like, I always kind of had that thought that, oh, the armistice, this is really the end of it. But it's kind of just a limbo period. You have no idea if it's the end. I try to be very careful in my wording to always say the silencing of the guns. Yeah.

Things like that. Because it is not the end of a war. For instance, technically, North and South Korea are still at war. There's an armistice. But the end of the war is what happened. There was never a treaty. Yeah. So that's why we've got the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea.

I've actually been there once when I was really young. I got to visit South Korea. And, I mean, it's quite extraordinary to see the barbed wire. I mean, yeah, That is a defended line. That is not, it's not a border like what you'd see if you were visiting Canada or Mexico. It's intense. Yeah. So, you know, that's going to help us understand when we get to the Treaty of Versailles, what, you know, the blade that dangles over the Germans if they don't sign the treaty.

Yeah. As I mentioned in, again, in the Christmas episode for World War I, the troops, they're not going home for Christmas. Nope. They're still there. They have to be, yeah, vigilant and prepared in the event that the Germans are not honoring the armistice. And if the treaty goes south, the last thing you want to do is have sent all your troops home. And then have to bring them all back.

Precisely. Yep. Okay. So this is a, it's a cease to the fire. It's a ceasefire. It's a ceasefire. Trying to say that as awkward as I can. So it's a ceasefire.

And that's that for now. Another crucial piece is understanding the terms upon which the Germans were willing to come to the table. So Woodrow Wilson's 14 points. The French, the British, yeah, they're thinking, oh, this idealist American, all self-important, thinks he's got it all figured out. You know how those history professors are. So, you know, he's, I mean, joking aside, while I always enjoy ribbing my own profession, he's a thinker, right? He is a philosopher. So it's no surprise that he's not just going to say, okay, war is over, but he's sitting there trying to think through. How can we not have this happen again?

Exactly. And regardless of how right or wrong he is. Yeah, that's the goal that he has. So yeah, that's the whole deal with his 14 points. He genuinely believes deep in his bones, if these 14 points are adhered to, this is going to prevent war from ever occurring again. And yeah, they are kinder.

They are softer to Germany than what France or Britain want to do, who they see Germany as nothing but the aggressor. Just the enemy. Who has put millions of their sons, of their husbands, uncles, nephews, you name it, right, in the ground. This is a much more personal thing for them. Because it's been four years of this. And I think it's easy for them to kind of dismiss Wilson and say, well, you have no idea what this is. Even as you say that, Kelsey, as we say that, I just don't know if any of us today can completely grasp, you know, the resentment that would, you know, boil in the hearts of some of these allied leaders. We've watched so many people die because of it. They meet in the Campion Forest. You know, my mind goes to those final hours as they're working in the early dark hours of November 11th itself. And, you know, the Germans say that dismantling their navy and so forth as they're seeing this, it's not fair.

And the British lose it, right? Not fair. Not fair. And are, you know know just screaming at them about all their ships that had been sunk and yeah this is an emotional yeah they're all very emotionally invested um the uh i think it's just a heartbreaking tale i i am able to simultaneously understand, intellectually at least, I think of Feldmann Fosch seated in that train car. It's not like these four Germans have personally carried out this work of death, but they personify

Germany for him in this moment, right? Yeah. So- Well, they're there representing Germany. Exactly. So he's looking at Matthias Oetzberger, who, you know, this very level-headed German politician, and he's not seeing that level-headed politician. He's just seeing La Boche. Mm-hmm. Right? And we've used that word enough.

Yeah. I trust everyone knows that one at this point after this last year of episodes. Yeah, he just sees La Boche and he is ready to eviscerate them. Yeah, he's angry. Yes, as much on paper as he can, just as he's tried to on the battlefield. My heart breaks for Erzberger. I mean, thinking about what's it like to sit down to negotiate, to then hear that your government has ceased to exist. Do you still negotiate? Do you still represent the German ceased to exist do you still negotiate do you still represent the german people um what do you do in that situation and you know and of course

ultimately for him to uh be murdered a few years later yeah uh he did his best for germany and you know that he could only do so so much. There was no real negotiating happening. No. I mean, it was all- It was. That was the expression, putting lipstick on a pig. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. No big movement was going to happen. But that, unfortunately, is, you know, that's a parallel you can take right into your own life. I have no interest in commenting on any particular anything. I'm not trying to do that. But history is full of examples of the level-headed trying to do right, working within the limitations of a situation while the citizenry either simply angry or not understanding the full context, maybe not even their their own fault i mean think about the things the german government's been telling them for years to set

them up to have the perceptions that they did uh as far as the germans knew they were winning the war i mean they they're holding territory in france they they, they didn't realize it was so dire for them. Exactly. Um, but it's, it's crucial to keep in mind that this felt like a bait and switch for them. It did. Um, again, as because in many ways it was, I think understanding the end of world war one, it's crucial to understand how the Germans kind of, well, you know, they are not dealt

with as, as they expected to be dealt with that they feel this bait and switch and none of this justifies the horrific aggression of germany no but it also sets up the bad terms that we ultimately end up wrapping this war up. Yeah, it does. Too many prepositions there. It sets up the bad terms upon which this war wraps. Yeah. Boom. There we go. English teachers, you're welcome.

They were twitching a little bit. That's right. That's right. When Johann Rall received the letter on Christmas Day 1776, he put it away to read later. Maybe he thought it was a season's greeting and wanted to save it for the fireside. But what it actually was, was a warning, delivered to the Hessian colonel, letting him know that General George Washington was crossing the Delaware and would soon attack his forces. The next day, when Raw lost the Battle of Trenton and died from two colonial Boxing Day musket balls, the letter was found, unopened in his vest pocket.

As someone with 15,000 unread emails in his inbox, I feel like there's a lesson there. Oh well, this is The Constant, a history of getting things wrong. I'm Mark Kreisler. Every episode, we look at the bad ideas, mistakes, and accidents that misshaped our world. Find us at ConstantPodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from obscurity to become the most powerful and significant figure in modern history. Over 200 years after his death, people are still debating his legacy. He was a man of

contradictions, a tyrant and a reformer, a liberator and an oppressor, a revolutionary and a reactionary. His biography reads like a novel, and his influence is almost beyond measure. I'm Everett Rummage, host of the Age of Napoleon podcast, and every month I delve into the turbulent life and times of one of the greatest characters in history, and explore the world that shaped him in all its glory and tragedy. It's a story of great battles and campaigns, political intrigue, and massive social and economic change, but it's also a story about people, populated with remarkable characters. I hope you'll join me as I examine this fascinating era of history. Find The Age of Napoleon wherever you get your podcasts. let's just go ahead and push right on into versailles i think that we really did do a

an excellent job covering the armistice itself there isn't much more to say there um going into versailles itself and just continuing that that same thought process you know i think about that the the count's comment after he's read the 413 page. It is a really long document. Yeah, right. And he says, you know, well, they could have just summed it up by saying Germany ceases to exist.

Yeah. Right. So again, I understand the impulse, but I got to give it to Woodrow Wilson. I think he was thinking more. I touched on this in the wrap up of 147. I take us to the negotiation table at Vienna in 1815 with Talleyrand representing France. And here, France has been the aggressor. It was Napoleonic France that has just waltzed all over Europe.

Yeah. Slaughtered, brought war and devastation to the continent. And now here's Talleyrand, meant to be a mirror observer and slick smooth operator that he is by the time he's done he's represented france and it's got a full voice and all that but one of the most important and crucial things that happened at vienna as they set up this concert as they called it is that they treated france not as an entity to be punished into oblivion but as a neighbor yeah a bad neighbor of late neighbor that probably yet had some issues yet nonetheless a neighbor who's not going to disappear and they need to mend fences so they did not deliver a crushing blow to france and

while i understand that impulse at the the paris peace conference that ends world war one more than a century later in 1919 uh it's my perception that they just they won 80 they went the exact opposite way instead they said we are we are going to absolutely going to destroy you yes now you know it's to give a little more context you know i do understand clement so he's not just about punishing i mean there's a part of that let's not forget it i think they all kind of felt that and i'm not faulting them for it no i would have done the exact same thing and not that they again they aren't without sin themselves yeah but yeah germany carries the water in my mind as i look at all the causes yeah you you know france and britain maybe they shouldn't have taken taken a swing but yeah but you you started the bar fight. France and Britain should have walked away.

Things they could have done to avoid it. They were a little eager to jump in, but yeah, Germany's the one that really kind of kicked that off. But Clemenceau is actually coming at this from a strategic standpoint. It's not just about crushing Germany. We need to remember the imbalance in population,

that there are so fewer French than there are Germans. And that's all part of why France to neuter it, declaw it. Make sure this can't happen again. Yes. And the only way to do that, that requires making them pay for the war so they know that pain. It requires cutting their military down to a little more than a defensive force. So here's Imperial Germany, millions of soldiers, and what the Versailles Treaty now says, your army is about to drop to less than 10%.

Yeah, what do all those guys do now? Yeah, they go home to a broken economy. Yeah. So, you know, this is also where we're walking into how the Treaty of Versailles contributes. And I do think that it's important to be a careful historian and not simply say, look, Treaty of Versailles, here are all the problems that create World War II. But it definitely plays a part in that.

100% does. Yes, it's a massive factor. Yeah. I really did like Margaret MacMillan's point in her book, Paris 1919, that their successors, they made choices. So, yes, we shouldn't just look at the Versailles Treaty and blame everything as though the dominoes had to fall, but the domino was not. Yeah, it was a big part of that. It set up the hyper, and it's's interesting we'll get into this later it's not u.s history directly but it definitely influences

so so it's important to talk about it well we'll talk about how the nazi regime how how this ultra-nationalism that is Nazism, fascism, it has an immense uptick right after World War I in the midst of communists on the far left, as we know, trying to set up a Soviet state in Germany that fails. We get the Weimar Republic. But then on the far right, we've got these ultra nationalists and their numbers are skyrocketing amidst the hyperinflation created by these terms because the Weimar Republic is going to respond by saying, okay, we got to pay this debt or we're just going to print the money. There's no other way to do this. Yeah. Hyperinflation. It kicks off fascism in Germany. The Dawes plan, we'll get to this later, but that's vice president, U.S. vice president Dawes. He's a former banker. He comes up with essentially a plan that stabilizes Germany. That happens. Boom. Nazism starts to just wither and die on the vine.

And it does. It's broken for the most part. It's this more fringe party. Yeah. And then the Great Depression hits and boom, it's this more fringe party. Yeah. And then the great depression hits and boom, it's skyrocketing. It's right back. Yep.

So again, those are all, you know, the details are to come, but you, you know, you can see how the, the economic scenario created by the Versailles treaty,

it's contributing to. Well, I think a lot of the Germans, as we kind of touched on a little bit, a lot of the Germans view this as because they thought they were winning. Yeah. So they see it as a huge betrayal by their government. Enormous.

And like, well, we could have won if you guys hadn't given up, if you hadn't just, well, ultimately they were wrong, but they didn't know that. And there will be some revising of history as well in the 1920s and the 1930s as they look back. And it's within that context that Hitler is going to start with all of his atrocious claims. clearly succeeds in Germany and in scapegoating the Jewish people and, you know, just all sorts of horrific lies that allow him to continue to gain power. But anyhow, we're getting ahead of ourselves. We'll get there eventually. And yes, the obviously, you know, again, I will cite Professor McMillan. That is not what Clemenceau, what Woodrow Wilson, what David Lloyd George intended to do. No, none of them could have foreseen that happening, but it definitely contributed to it.

And it's these sorts of instances where I contrast this to the Congress of Vienna and the words of Abraham Lincoln actually come to mind for me. You know, with malice toward none, with charity for all. When you go tooth for tooth, you do that in treaties. It doesn't end well. It never does. You have to go into it saying, I get that I'm really angry at you because of all this, but we have to find a way to work together.

How do we build a better future? Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, it's, better future? Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, I'll go with another analogy. It's like a fishtail in a car, right? Yeah. That just keeps swinging and swinging. It takes enormous strength to do what the leaders of Europe did in Vienna in 1815.

To not pile all the blame. Yeah, to not pile the blame, to not say, well, we're going to make them pay. We're just going to crush you. And again, I totally get the strategic thought, the idea that we will neuter Germany so that they can't.

But... In doing so. Yeah. Really, Woodrow had it right on that whole self-determination point, you know, on allowing nations

to be themselves. Yeah. And of course, you know know to bring this full circle we we should discuss woodrow uh you know the the idealist who in so many ways wouldn't compromise yet he would readily compromise uh on on that and in many other points i again trying to get into his head right it's easy to point out where woodrow uh where he became a hypocrite yeah and fell short we can do that all day long with of course but we could do that with everyone not yes we could do that with with any villain hero doesn't matter right that's it's easy to do

um the to understand whether or not we we agree or condone, is to grasp how deeply he believed in the idea of the League of Nations. Yeah. And in his mind, if he could just get that across the finish line, we're golden. Because the League of Nations is going to fix everything. It's going to solve everything.

That's it. All the problems will be fixed. We'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. So it's okay. I can compromise on these other issues. What I can't do is compromise on the League, which he then, as we saw stubbornly, would not. He compromised in Paris to get the League, but he wouldn't compromise in the United States to get the Senate to approve the treaty,

which as I just had this discussion with my students this last week, as I'm teaching my Middle East class and we were talking through covering the Iran nuclear agreement under the Obama administration and discuss the difference between, you know, binding treaties versus executive orders and so forth. Woodrow Wilson's looking for a binding treaty. The president, yes, oversees our foreign policy and secretary of state assists with that but per the constitution it's the senate that approves the treaty yeah so if you can't get if you can't get them on on board with it it doesn't matter yep it's it's toast and as we know he didn't oh it's so ironic it's super ironic the only thing he wouldn't compromise on. So he gets his Nobel Peace Prize for the idea. And we get the League of Nations. It's not like it doesn't exist. No, but the United States is not a part of it.

It is not. Super, super is not a part of it. I also think it's worth noting, and undoubtedly, it speaks to just my own academic path, doing a minor field in the Middle East. You know, I did want to include Faisal and what was happening in the former Ottoman territories. But that wasn't just because there was a connection in Paris that Faisal was there. And I thought that was an interesting story to tell. But we're laying deep, deep track. Because, of course, we will eventually, as we continue with these episodes and we get into the late 20th century, we're going to see the United States playing a larger role in the Middle East. And understanding. Kind of have to lay that groundwork.

Whenever I teach my Middle East class, first, I do kind of a crash course on Islam. Two weeks of, no one's an expert, but, you know. Understanding the basics. I think you took one of those classes from me, right? Well, it was a lot more in depth because it wasn't just the Middle East class. Yes, yes. But yeah, yeah, that's right. It was more specifically about Islam.

Yeah. Well, but the Middle East one where it's much more history and contemporary politics as opposed to getting into the religious side of things. Yeah, I do the crash course. So you understand where people are coming from. Yeah, just some context, some very broad context. And then I jumped to World War I because I would argue, and I'm not unique in this by any means, you cannot understand the map of the Middle East if you do not understand the League of Nation mandates.

So, we'll still even touch on that a little bit in an upcoming episode once we get through these next second editions as we'll we'll see iraq i'll give a little hint we're gonna see iraq get made um by the british this is just all crucial to understanding things yet to come so down the road you know you'll hear me say as i I said, in episode 147, right? And then I'll make that reference. The last thing, I do not believe I mentioned this in the episode. I always mention it when I teach this stuff in class. Because again, I think it's fascinating and it's worth noting this contrast. So we saw Faisal come and speak in Paris, right?

Trying to get an impendination, not going to happen. Right then and there, Woodrow Wilson's like, yeah, yeah. So, would you like one mandate or several for your people, right? And there's Faisal still like trying to, ah, I'm going to try and negotiate and navigate this. They weren't interested in listening. No, super not going to happen. But when the mandate for Syria and Lebanon, as it's called, it's one mandate when it is created, the people who are put in those boundaries, they say, we don't want to be a mandate.

We want to be an independent nation. Okay. Number one, number two, by the way, any basic Middle East history textbook will tell you this. Yeah. I've read this so many different times from different historians.

Number two, if we have to be a mandate, we want the United States to oversee us. And I know that in modern day context, you know, maybe a lot of us would be like, wow, what? That seems odd. But the isolationist United States had no history of being engaged in meddling, for lack of a better word. So they saw of these great powers. Who's going to be the least annoying? Well, yeah, who seems to really live by their ideals of all this. And as they looked at it, it was America.

So they then said, if it can't be the Americans, we prefer the, we'll go with the Brits. But in the name of all that is good, if you make us a mandate, if you make us have someone look over us, do not let it be the French. It was the French. So the League of nations mandate goes to the french um and then they later split the mandate they split lebanon off of that man they do all sorts of different boundary changes but yeah they then um the fact that you have a separate syria and lebanon two separate countries to this day that was the french who decided that they would be different because lebanon was intended to be a Christian nation with Syria.

That was the French administrative mind. Lebanon for the Christians and then Syria for the Muslims. Yeah. All right. I think I've talked through all the things. I think so. I'm going to shut up now. I'm processing a lot of things right now. Oh, no. I mean, the idea is that we make it all smooth. All right. I definitely just need to stop talking and let you process.

It's all good. It's just processing. Sure, sure. Okay. Well, hey, thank you as always for joining me. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to have you here. It's a good match.

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to some second editions. So, all that said, join me in two weeks where I'd like to tell you a story. History That Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Episode researched and written by Greg Jackson. Special guest, Kelsey Dines. Production by Airship. Sound design by Molly Bach. Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. For a bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit HTDSpodcast.com.

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