History That Doesn't Suck - 166: A Conversation on Negro Leagues Baseball History with Bob Kendrick

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

As a follow up to episode 165 America’s Favorite Pastime: Baseball, we’re proud to share an interview with Bob Kendrick, the President of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, MO. Founded in 1990, the NLBM is the world’s only museum dedicated to preserving and celebrating the rich history of African-American baseball and its profound impact on the social advancement of America. It’s the perfect time to share more about the history of the Negro Leagues because, in the spring of 2024, Major League Baseball officially incorporated the statistics of over 2,300 Negro Leagues players from 1920–1948 into its record books. These statistics are now a permanent part of American professional baseball history. Read more about this milestone and peruse some of the updated records at MLB.com. You can also read about the rigorous process by historians to gather and validate these records in this 2020 memo from MLB. Want extra innings? Become a premium member to hear an extra segment from this conversation with Bob Kendrick, where we talk about Major League Baseball, finally adding player stats from the Leagues into the official record. Bob Kendrick has been associated with the museum in one way or another since its founding. He was first a volunteer during his 10-year newspaper career with The Kansas City Star. Then he became the museum’s first Director of Marketing in 1998 and held various other leadership roles before being appointed president of the organization in 2011. And while he doesn’t fashion himself to be a historian, Bob has become one of the leading authorities on the topic of Negro Leagues Baseball history and its connection to issues relating to sports, race and diversity.  Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. HTDS is part of the Airwave Media Network.  Interested in advertising on the History That Doesn't Suck? Email us at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as eglinton crosstown lrt train testing is in progress please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks remember to follow all traffic signals be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so be alert be, and welcome to a bonus episode of History That Doesn't Suck. We're following up on our golden age of sports, the last narrative episode being 165. And this is just in time for the start of the postseason of baseball. Well, the 2024 postseason baseball for all of you listening out there in the future. Yes, thank you.

It is important to timestamp this episode for listeners and acknowledge we're talking about the U.S. because baseball, just like this podcast, is a timeless international pastime. I see what you did there. Well, thank you. And a shout out here for everyone to all our domestic and international listeners. The voice you just heard is Riley Neubauer, one of the hardworking writer researchers here at HTDS. It's great to have her co-hosting with me today because admittedly, as much as it hurts me to admit, in fact, Riley does in fact know, perhaps love baseball even more than I do. Though I grew up rooting for the Dodgers, still care for the Dodgers, but developed a deep and abiding love

for the Red Sox while living in Boston a little while back. You got to be careful with that Red Sox one. Well, forgive me, New Yorker. You just have to deal with it. Well, I will say, even though I am a New Yorker, I am a Philadelphia Phillies fan. Oh, see, so you're the one who's got to be careful then, Riley. You've admitted this now publicly. I knew there was a reason I liked you, though. New Yorker who has turned her

back on the pinstripes. Now that I've upset everyone in the New York area, we'll move on from that digression. Point being, today, Riley and I are pleased to share an interview with Bob Kendrick, who is the president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri. Founded in 1990, the NLBM is the world's only museum dedicated to preserving and celebrating the rich history of African-American baseball and its profound impact on the social advancement of America. Bob has been associated with the museum in one way or another since its founding. He was first a volunteer during his 10-year newspaper career with the Kansas City Star. Today, he's the president, and while he doesn't fashion himself to be a historian, Bob has become one

of the leading authorities on the topic of Negro League's baseball history. This was my first time meeting Bob, virtually, that is. I do hope to meet him in person, though, and visit the museum when our live show heads out to his area in October 2024. I like the way you're getting that plug in there. Well, thank you. And our producer would not be happy with me if I didn't. So then I should tell listeners that tour dates and ticket information for the History That Doesn't Suck live show is available in the episode notes and also at htbspodcast.com slash tour. You should, Riley. And it's almost like we planned on you doing that. So yes, htbspodcast.com slash tour for new live show tour dates. But again, enough with the digressions.

Riley, you've met Bob in person. Why don't you go ahead and tell everyone how that went down? Of course, I met Bob back in 2015 when I was a kid reporter for Sports Illustrated Kids, and I was traveling to Kansas City with my dad to cover a postseason baseball game and to visit the NLBM. And I received a wonderful tour of the museum by a former museum curator. And I got to meet Bob, who, as we will all hear later on, is a fantastic storyteller. And he and I walked around what might be one of my favorite museum exhibits of all time, which is a mock infield set up with life-size statues of famous Negro Leagues baseball players. And Bob had so many incredible tidbits and stories about the players that I hadn't seen in any of my research kind of coming up to the museum. And I

was so grateful and am so grateful that he took the time to meet with a young female sports reporter and that I'm so honored that he's coming back to speak with us today. And today is the perfect time to present this history of the Negro Leagues, because this year, Major League Baseball has finally incorporated the statistics of over 2,000 Negro Leagues players from 1920 to 1948 into the official record books. And the statistics are now a permanent part of American professional baseball history, which is incredibly exciting. It is. And let's get onto this conversation. Riley and I are pleased to bring you our informative chit chat with Mr. Bob Kendrick. Bob, it's a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you so much for making the time and joining Riley and I here. So diving on in, we know that in 1887, the main minor league, the international league, banned the signing of black players. And by the 1890s, black players were limited to exhibition games on all black teams in the barnstorming circuit. What do you

think it meant for the country as a whole to shift from integrated baseball to segregated play? Well, it was a sign of the times. You know, segregation was becoming even more prevalent than it had been, and it was affecting our so-called national pastime. And so, as you alluded, Greg, there were Black professional baseball players who had made their way onto what would be considered white professional baseball teams, but they just simply could not stick and stay. Here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, we tell the story of Moses Fleetwood Walker, who was one of those early African-American pioneers who played in what would be considered a major league as early as 1883. Moses Fleetwood Walker was a barehanded catcher. Yeah, it didn't last long before guys like Adrian Cap Anson. Cap Anson, who was a white player.

And others would form, quote unquote, a gentleman's agreement that would ban Blacks from playing on what would be considered white Major League Baseball teams. That ban was upheld for six decades before Jackie Robinson would re-break, essentially, the color barrier. But the thing that strikes me is that there was no written doctrine of any kind. This was just a verbalized agreement that essentially said, if you allow a Black to play with you, you can't play with us. Well, Cap Anson, who kind of initiated this, well, he was one heck of a baseball player. He was an outstanding ball player. He is in the

National Baseball Hall of Fame. And as you can well imagine, there were a coalition of followers who shared that same sentiment because it was pretty easy for him to build that coalition of followers. And then that would ban Blacks for the next six decades until Jackie Robinson, again, re-breaks the color barrier. As you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, our regular HTES listeners, they are undoubtedly connecting the dots. As you said, the era, they're thinking through the Jim Crow laws, right? The black codes that are spreading across the country, all the holes that are just being punched through the reconstruction amendments and federal legislation are building us to Plessy v. Ferguson and doing that separate but equal.

I have to say, it's baffling to imagine without documentation. These other things they did with legislation, right? Yeah. And so this is all just verbal. It was just verbal. And again, they upheld this for six decades, even as the movement was being made for integration. And of course, when we get to World War II, and we're now coming out of World War II, and as I oftentimes remind my visitors here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, if you were going to point to one single event that helped usher in integration in Major League Baseball, it would have been World War II. Because you have the irony of young Black soldiers dying, fighting essentially the same racism in another country that we were being asked to accept here at home. And I think that started the groundswell of sentiment that essentially said, if they can die fighting for their country, why can't they play baseball in this country? And I guess

you could say that that would give Branch Rickey, again, pun intended, the ammunition to go try and bring Jackie Robinson into the major leagues. But when you go back and you look at how integration played out, the major league owners then would be quick to tell you that there was no rule governing blacks out of Major League Baseball if they could find the right one. Now, the way that they had looked at the right one was rather extremist. You know, the right one had to be of high moral standards. They had to be an upstanding citizen, along with a great baseball player, had to be highly educated. They had to be everything that the majority of the Major League Baseball workforce wasn't. Right. Yeah. And so that was their way of just trying to keep

those Black players out of Major League Baseball. And it took really the wit of Branch Rickey, who essentially outsmarted them, that would ultimately open up the door for the color barrier to fall in Major League Baseball. You know, it strikes me, the lack of documentation, and that's, of course, incredibly different from the way that the Jim Crow laws are working. And yet I'm seeing a parallel in that in enforcing Jim Crow, so often police officers, state officials, they would always avoid actually charging Black Americans under the Jim Crow law, right? They'd charge them with vagrancy or some other way that wouldn't threaten that law actually having to experience scrutiny in the court system.

And that just comes to mind as you're telling me, right, that on paper, oh, sure, sure, we'll allow a Black player. But the reality is— And I think that's a very interesting parallel there, and I dare to think that there was some similarity for sure in terms of how this rule was being interpreted. But I think for me, and I think this is certainly true, most folks who are racist don't want you to know that they're racist. They don't want you to know. And the major league owners didn't want to give the appearance that they were excluding anyone. They didn't want people to look at them and say, oh, they're racist. No. And so they could hide behind Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis, who was in some ways maybe even their fall guy, because he was doing what I think he thought they wanted him to do with this exclusionary practice that was put in place. But they didn't want to be seen in that light. And so they would,

they would just say that kind of, you know, idiotic kind of statement where, you know, there's nothing that governs them out if we can find the right one. And you've got talent surrounding you around every corner with tremendous black baseball talent. And this notion that the athletes in the Negro Leagues weren't smart enough to play in the major leagues. That was also very prevalent. And as I tell my guests, first and foremost, I don't know when you had to be a Rhodes Scholar to play baseball. But there was this kind of underlying mindset that the players in the Negro Leagues, as it was stated in a letter written by Larry McPhail, lacked the faculties to play in the major leagues. Wow.

But here's the interesting twist to that story. Okay. Over 40% of the athletes that played in the Negro Leagues had some level of college education. Less than five percent of those who played in the major leagues at the same time had any college education for the simple reason then the major leagues didn't want you to go to college. They got you right out of high school if you went to high school, put you into their farm system, and then you would eventually work your way to the big leagues. Well, the Negro Leagues didn't have that kind of sophisticated farm system. So what did they do? They trained on the campuses of historically black colleges and universities. They would then play the black college baseball teams,

and they recruited a great deal of their workforce from those HBCUs. So in actuality, they had a disproportionate number of college-educated athletes in comparison to those who were playing in the major leagues at the same time. Jackie Robinson walks into a clubhouse, y'all, where he was likely the most intellectual being in that clubhouse because, as you know, he had gone to Pasadena City College and UCLA. I'm not sure another Dodger had stepped foot on a college campus. And so none of that actually made any sense. And, you know, we kind of shed light on what was really driving this exclusion, particularly as it related to when

the Negro Leagues became formalized. And now the Negro Leagues are actually making money for Major League Baseball. You know, as I tell my guests all the time, anytime they say it ain't about the money, it's always about the money. It's always about the money. I go back to a letter that we acquired several years ago, and this was a significant acquisition. I can't remember what we paid, but we're probably still paying for it. It's hard for us to go out and buy the artifacts because the private collectors are basically gobbling them all up. They can control the market. They have unlimited wealth and we have very limited budgets to go out and compete against them. But this piece was

something that I knew we had to have, and I told my then curator that we needed to go get it. And this piece was a letter that I had referenced earlier that was written by Larry McPhail. Larry McPhail was then the managing partner of the New York Yankees. And this letter was written near the end of 1945. New York City Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia. Who was in office both during the Great Depression and World War II. Both topics we'll be covering shortly on HTDS. Same person that the airport is named for today. He and others were really pushing the charge for integration in Major League Baseball.

And the mayor had put together a commission to examine integration. Larry McPhail was on that commission, and he writes what was called the McPhail Memorandum. And as I mentioned, we acquired this letter several years ago. And what I find so intriguing about the letter is that throughout the body of the letter, Macphail, who is outlining why integration is such a bad idea, he actually offers up some points of validity. For instance, he would say, if we sign Negro League players, we will put the Negro Leagues out of business. He's absolutely right.

That was going to be the byproduct of integration. He would also go on to say, you know, we can't just go take their players away from them because they are bound by legal contract. Well, again, he's absolutely right. Now, Branch Rickey didn't think so. Branch Rickey didn't think that the contract in Negro Leagues were worth a piece of paper that they were written on. And contrary to popular belief,

he did not sign Jackie Robinson to the Brooklyn Dodgers. Guys, he took Jackie Robinson away from the Kansas City Monarchs. He never paid the Kansas City Monarchs, as my mother would say, my late mother would say, not one red cent for a ball player who was under contract. J.L. Wilkinson never got compensated. That is wild. Uh-huh. Which is a whole nother story in his own right.L. Wilkinson never got compensated. That is wild. Which is a whole other story in its own right. Right. But then he made the outlandish statement that they lacked the faculties to play in that league, which of course we know was just hogwash.

Sure. But then he finally gets to the crux of the matter. By the time that letter was written in 1945, the New York Yankees had made nearly $100,000 off the Negro Leagues. They were renting Yankee Stadium. They were renting Rupert Stadium across the river in Newark, and they were renting Blue Stadium here in Kansas City, their minor league affiliates. They were in no hurry to see integration because they did not want to lose that source of revenue. It is no small wonder that the Yankees were at the tail end of integration. That's both fascinating and disappointing, especially as a New Yorker.

Yes. And as you said, Bob, it's always about the money. Now, you can make a legitimate argument that the Yankees didn't need a black player. They had good teams historically. They always had good teams. But $100,000, guys, is a lot of money today. Right. But $100,000 in 1945? That's a fortune. Exactly. And you didn't have to work for that money. All you had to do was sign on the dotted line. They were in no hurry to lose that source of revenue. Right. And they weren't alone. Clark Griffith there in Washington, D.C., he owned the Washington Senators. He was watching Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson tear up the ballpark

there. And Leonard was ripping line drives all over the stadium, making dazzling plays at first base. Josh Gibson was hitting balls where no mere mortal had ever hit him. But on the flip side of the legend, he was also watching all these Black folks fill up his ballpark there at Griffith Stadium. They were out drawing the Washington Senators, and he was torn. He wanted to sign Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson well before Branch Rickey made the move to go get Jackie Robinson. Now, two things are in play here. Number one, he knows he's going to be ostracized by his peers.

This was going to create a fight. And maybe the timing wasn't quite as right because now we're in the early 1940s. And so we're still in the midst of World War II. And so the timing may not have been right. But the other thing that he's grappling against was what I said earlier. He's watching Black folks fill up his ballpark. Right. And he's getting a percentage of the gate and likely all of the concessions. Yeah, he doesn't want to interrupt that flow.

He's feeling great about that. No, you don't want to interrupt this. And that's why I say anytime they say it ain't about the money, it's always about the money. Wow. Wow. Okay. You know, I was thinking to myself and wanted to drill a little deeper on why integration would hold off more in baseball as opposed to other spaces. I think you just answered that question for me though, Bob.

You know what I find so interesting? Yeah, go ahead. Is that Major League Baseball has really been the only one of the major sports that has always been challenged by its racist past. People forget the NFL and the NBA didn't let Blacks play either. But baseball seems to be the one that has always been questioned about its racist past. But baseball has also led the way in basically acknowledging and honoring the Negro Leagues, the league that was created because of his racist past. And perhaps it's because baseball is considered still our national pastime. But the other sports

have not had to address the fact that they were exclusionary in their own processes as well. Fritz Pollard becomes the first black to play in what would be considered the National Football League in 1920, the same year that the Negro Leagues were being established here in Kansas City. Well, Fritz Pollard and several other brothers were exiled from the NFL the same way that Moses Fleetwood Walker was exiled from Major League Baseball. And then in 1946, Jackie Robinson's UCLA backfield teammate, Kenny Washington, would re-break the color barrier in the National Football League. Yeah, you know, I get two thoughts as you say that. One, think spot on, baseball being our national pastime, even if that's more of an emotional

thing these days, right, with how popular football has become and basketball. But baseball, it's still kind of the sport that's the soul of America in some sort of way. It makes me wonder if baseball actually making any sort of effort to acknowledge that past, ironically, the other sports get a pass by basically by ignoring it. I think so. I think there's some merit to that, which again, leads you to question, they've never really had to address what took place in those leagues. Now, there's been some acknowledgement over recent times more trivial than nature, but baseball has always seemingly was held accountable for its sins.

Yeah. But baseball has also been the one that has more frequently addressed those issues. And you can see what has happened over recent times as they've paid recognition to the Negro Leagues. They came to grips with the errors of their ways. And this long overdue recognition that we've been seeing there as it relates to certain milestones in Negro Leagues history is something that none of the other sports have even remotely been asked to do. And you can't help but commend baseball

for addressing and dealing and enlightening people along the way. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, Bob's going to tell us about how the Negro Leagues embodied the American spirit and led the way on the international stage. Growth is essential for every entrepreneur.

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Conflicted community to give you bonus episodes and access to our community hub on Discord. Subscribe to Conflicted wherever you get your podcasts. I just recently I was watching the Giants Cardinals game at Rickwood Field and I saw you come on screen to do some of the interviews talking about what it means to have the Negro Leagues and their legacy honored in such a way with a Major League Baseball game at Rickwood Field. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it was like to be in that environment and to be experiencing a Major League game in what used to be a Negro League stadium. I've been trying to summarize what that experience has been. And the one word that keeps coming back to me is magical. It was one of the most magical events,

and particularly baseball events that I've ever been involved with. It was just an amazing experience from the moment that I stepped on the premises there at Rickwood Field. You felt like you had been transported back in time. And I never got to experience a Negro Leagues game, but having heard so many folks talk about the excitement of what it was like to be at a Negro Leagues game, I could only

imagine that we were very fortunate to capture that spirit there at Rickwood Field. And I commend my friends over at Major League Baseball and the city of Birmingham for what they were able to do. And it was just a tremendously proud moment. I think not just for me, but our staff here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum and all of those who were stewards of this story to see that epic event unfold. The only diminishing aspect of this was the passing of Mr. Mays, Willie Mays, the legendary Willie Mays, who we lost still too early.

Even at 93, we lost him too early. But in its own poetic way, his passing drew even more eyeballs to this major epic national televised game. And it was just so profound to see those Negro League players who had gathered there. And obviously, this was done in the spirit of Mr. Mays, and everyone was hopeful that he too would be back there at a place that started and launched his professional baseball career where he was 17 years old patrolling center field for the

Birmingham Black Barons. And he would not have wanted the spotlight to be just on him. He would have wanted his other colleagues to get their shine as well. And that's exactly what happened. But it was a tremendous celebration. I still can't believe that my friends over at Fox Sport gave me essentially 30 minutes of national TV airtime to tell stories. But I am thrilled that so many baseball fans enjoyed the stories that I was sharing. And they took the opportunity to send messages and other notes via social media just about how much they enjoyed that experience as well. But to be there,

you just felt that spirit. I mean, even watching on TV, I could feel some of that spirit, especially from the stories you were telling. I've noticed in those interviews and in those stories, you've talked about how the style of play and the attitude that Negro League baseball players had was very different from white Major League Baseball. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that with us. Well, Major League Baseball in that era, before Jackie Robinson breaks the color barrier, was essentially a base-to-base kind of game. Nothing wrong with that. The guys would get up, set the table, get on base. They moved that guy over into scoring position, and then the big hitters came in and drove them in. Again, nothing wrong with that. But the pace of play in the Negro Leagues was fast, aggressive, daring. They'd bunt their way on. They'd steal second. They would steal third. And guys, if you weren't too smart, they were stealing home. And so it was indeed a far more exciting brand of baseball. As my friend, the late, great Buck behind his back and started to double

play, they would say, oh, he's showboating. Well, today, that is a celebrated top 10 sports highlight virtually every day of the week when those things happen. But as my friend Buck O'Neill would say, and this is so poignant, number one, if you got something to show, show it. Yeah, don't be afraid to show it. And number two is only showboating when you can't do it. I love it. I love it. Oh, that is good.

Let's expand what some listeners might understand is who's playing in the Negro Leagues. Yes. It's interesting. I think we're talking about that. The Negro Leagues really accepted, well, anyone who wasn't able to play in the White Leagues, right? That's the beauty of the Negro Leagues because the Negro Leagues, they just refused to succumb to treating others the way that they were being treated.

Yeah. The Negro Leagues didn't care what color you were. They didn't care what gender you were. to succumb to treating others the way that they were being treated. The Negro Leagues didn't care what color you were. They didn't care what gender you were. Yeah. Can you play? Do you have something to offer? That's the way it is supposed to be. And that's why I say that the Negro Leagues embodies the American spirit, unlike any story in the annals of American history. It is everything that America

prides itself in being. It's not there yet. But America had its best, like the idea, right? Exactly, the idea behind it. But because it's not there yet, doesn't mean that it's not the greatest country in the world. It just means that there's still work left to be done. And through the lens of these incredibly courageous and talented athletes, my visitors, I think, gain a greater appreciation for why diversity, equity, and inclusion are to be so valued and how they are indeed pillars for building a bridge for tolerance and respect. And so you're right. The Negro League players welcomed anyone. So yeah, there were Spanish-speaking athletes who called the Negro Leagues home. There were a handful of white athletes that called the Negro Leagues home. There were three pioneering women who called the Negro Leagues home. And our game, which is a global game, as you both know, you can look at a major league roster on any given day of the week, and you see so many different ethnicities

that make up those major league rosters. When you go back and examine the history of the Negro Leagues, you'll find that our game is a global game because of the Negro Leagues. They took this game to all parts of the globe. They would go into Canada, barnstorming their way into Canada. They were oftentimes the first Americans to play in many Spanish-speaking countries. It was a touring team of Negro leaguers who would make their way to Japan in 1927. Guys, that's seven years before Babe Ruth and his All-Americans would go to Japan, taking this brand of professional baseball. Now, the Japanese had been playing baseball, but they had not seen this brand of professional baseball. Now, the Japanese had been playing baseball, but they had not seen this brand of professional American baseball until a team called the Philadelphia Royal Giants go

over and play a historic exhibition series, a 24-game series where they go some 23-0-1 on the tour. The tour was so successful that seven years later, Babe Ruth and his All Americans would make their way to Japan. We have some very rare memorabilia from that tour of Japan. And I had the tremendous honor of showing that memorabilia to our dear friend, former Japanese Major League star Ichiro Suzuki. And y'all, he lit up like a Christmas tree. I can only imagine. Oh, man, it was special.

He had no idea that these brothers had been to his native homeland. Right. As early as 1927. And the memorabilia that we have, it is written in old Japanese, but he was actually able to interpret what was on the cover of the Game Day magazine. And so when you talk to the older Japanese baseball historian, they credit that tour of 1927 and a subsequent tour by those same Philadelphia Royal Giant team as being the spark that ignited the flame that is now the fire for professional baseball in Japan.

Oh, wow. I mean, it's just fascinating to think about that ripple effect across history that the Negro Leagues have on bringing us to what we have today. That's one of the reasons why Buck O'Neill and Ichiro Suzuki became somewhat kindred spirits. Because when Ichiro came from Japan over to this country, there were so many naysayers that said,

now his kid had put up 3,000 hits there in Japan. And all the naysayers were saying, well, you did that in your league, but you won't do it in our league. Guess what? They said the same thing about the players from the Negro League. You did this in your league, but you won't do it in our league. And what happens? Ichiro comes over here and does the exact same thing. Because a great athlete is a great athlete. I don't care where you come from. And Buck used to hang out at the cave.

So when the opposing teams came into town, Buck didn't just hang out with our Kansas City Royal guys. He would sit around the cage and he'd talk to any and everybody. And each year old would go on to say that he admired Buck's style. Buck was this classily dressed gentleman, and they just hit it off. And there was a mutual admiration because Buck understood what this kid from Japan was going to have to endure. He was essentially going to have to prove himself because of what the naysayers were saying, just as he and the other players from the Negro Leagues, once the color barrier is knocked down, those athletes had to prove

themselves because the naysayers were plentiful. You won't do this in our league. And guess what? They ripped up that league as well. Challenge accepted, right? It's amazing that they became somewhat of like stars and icons for the entirety of America, but also for the world. And I would imagine also more specifically for the local Black community. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the Negro League was represented for non-baseball players. In the African-American community, the Negro Leagues were a tremendous source of pride

because it was inherently ours. Now, it was shared with others, but it was inherently ours. And we supported it tremendously. And as I tell folks, there was nothing recreational about a Negro Leagues game. It was the social event of the week. Yeah, Riley, you went to see and you went to be seen. So you go have on, as the guys would say, your fineries when you went to the ballpark. And a lot of times we were leaving church because so many of the Negro League games were held on Sunday when they could get

access to the Major League ballparks. And so we're leaving church anyway. And Negro League baseball was so popular that black churches would move their service time up an hour so folks could go to the game. Now, as I tell my guests, if you know anything about the black church, you don't mess with service time. 11 o'clock Sunday, go to meeting. Well, here in Kansas City, when the Kansas City Monarchs were at home, Sunday service would start at 10 o'clock and everybody left going to that Sunday doubleheader dressed to the nines, as they would say, looking good. And so it was a social event that generated so much pride. And at a time when Black folks were being treated in such a way, they needed something to hold on to. But that's also why those African-American communities were so strong.

So what segregation, while segregation was a horrible chapter in this country's history, what segregation did was it forced a very close-knit community. And what it did was it forced us to have our own businesses. And when you examine Negro Leagues baseball in a much deeper perspective, the success of the Negro Leagues drove the success of many of those, as I define them, segregated, mandated Black-owned businesses. So good case in point here at 18th and Vine, where the Negro League Baseball Museum operates to this day. 18th and Vine, y'all, once upon a time was as recognized street cross-section as there was anywhere in the world because you had that intrinsic mixture of jazz and baseball radiating from this one street corner. It was the epicenter of Black life in Kansas City,

both business and entertainment. Now, 12th and Vine had a lot of entertainment, but you also have to remember that in Kansas City, Black folks could not live beyond about a 13-block radius. You couldn't go outside those 13 blocks, but within those 13 blocks, you had everything you needed and so much of it when it came to entertainment that others were coming in to get some of it. When we go back and examine integration in baseball, which ultimately triggered integration in a broader spectrum in our society, that was the very thing that killed the Negro Leagues. And then the ripple impact was it killed black economy. And so on so many levels, this is indeed a bittersweet story. Because those smaller black-owned businesses, once integration occurs, could no longer compete with their mainstream counterparts.

But at the same time, we were seeing this transitioning going on in the Negro Leagues, where its great Black stars were leaving to go to the major leagues. This creates a natural curiosity. Black folks had been waiting and hoping that one day their great Black stars would get that opportunity to compete in the major leagues. So what did we do? We left the Negro Leagues to go see Jackie, to go see Larry Doby, to go see Satchel Paige, Don Newcomb, and the others who would transition in. And ultimately, that led to the demise of the Negro Leagues and to a larger extent, the demise of Black economy. Yeah. Bittersweet is the only word to describe that, isn't it? You know, honestly, Greg, I don't know if we truly understood what we were losing when we lost the Negro Leagues.

It was a natural inclination to want to see how they would fare if they got the opportunity to play with and against their white counterparts. Now, we've watched them play countless exhibition games. You talked about that earlier in the show. And the record books bear out that the Negro Leagues or the Black All-Star teams won the more majority of their head-to-head matchups against their white counterparts. But this was a natural curiosity to want to see what would happen. And of course, the economy was such that you couldn't support two baseball leagues. So the Negro Leagues died a slow death, but it was an imminent death. It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of when the Negro Leagues were going to fold.

But I don't know if people understood the ripple effect that that was going to have. You see, Negro League Baseball was bringing those businesses a built-in clientele that led them to their economic heights. Speaking of that legacy of what was and wanting to remember that, do you want to talk to us a little bit about the campaign that you mentioned to build? Well, to understand the origins of this museum is amazing in its own right. Guys, we started in a little one-room office a fraction of the size of my office that I'm sitting in now. And guys like Buck O'Neill

and other local Negro leaguers who were still with us who call Kansas City home, they've all passed on now. They literally took turns paying the monthly rent to keep that little office open. And as I like to say,

with it, our hopes and dreams of one day building a facility that would pay rightful tribute to not just one of the greatest chapters in baseball history, but what now thousands upon thousands each and every year discover one of the greatest chapters in American history. Well, in November of 1997, we moved into what we then call our permanent home. And as you can imagine, when you go from a one-room office and now you've got 10,000 square feet of space, it seemed like an insurmountable amount of space. Matter of fact, you're wondering how in the heck we're going to fill all this up. I bet it filled up just fine real quick, huh? It filled up very quick. run out of space, both from an exhibit standpoint, as well as administratively to match all of the

interest that has been generated by these things that we've been talking about during this show. And that prompted us to announce last May, our plans to build a brand new 30 plus thousand square foot Negro Leagues Baseball Museum right around the corner from where we operate now, the old Paseo YMCA, where the Negro Leagues were established in 1920 in that very building. That is going to become the Buck O'Neill Education and Research Center. So we're renovating that historic landmark as we speak. And then we will build a brand new Negro Leagues Baseball Museum attached to the historic landmark where it all began. I guess you could say going full circle to where

it all began, where the story that we're now charged with preserving was born. And the campaign is called Pitch for the Future. And for those who would be interested, and we hope a lot of you are interested in supporting this effort of growth for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, you can make a charitable contribution to the campaign online at www.nlbm.com at the donation tab, and you can drag down and you'll see the pitch for the future campaign. We need to raise some $30 million to build this new home. And I am as excited as you can be about the task of having to raise $30 million.

That's a small number. As I tell people, Greg, and this is so true, every buck counts. That gives us another step closer to that financial goal. Pennies add up. Absolutely. So there is no number that is too small. And of course, there is no dollar number that is too large. You know, Bob, I bet you'd find something good to do with it if you managed to break 30 million. It would be that much better.

I'm just going to ask because I know when I visited the museum, my favorite spot, and I know that's true of many visitors, is the mock infield you have set up. And so I'm wondering if you're going to be recreating that in the new space. Oh, I could not, Riley. If I don't take that field of legends over with me to the new place, they're going to run me out of this town. That space that you're referring to is so iconic. It is. And obviously I'm biased, but I think it is one of the most amazing displays in any museum anywhere in the world. And folks, when you walk out on that field and you stand amongst these 10 life-size statues of Negro League greats and they're cast and positioned as if they were playing a game, you feel their spirit. You do.

You really do. And Riley, I have no doubt that once the dust settles, everybody going home, you know they're throwing the ball around the horn in there. Well, you know, Bob, I'm at the disadvantage. Unlike Riley, I have not had the privilege of making it there. You got to come to Casey. Look, barbecue and the museum. That's it. Done. That is it.

That is it. That is it. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time today. Anything else that we haven't touched on that really needs to be spoken to, be that how the Kansas City Royals are doing this season or anything. The Royals are playing great baseball. It's exciting to see baseball relevant again in KC. Yes. And the atmosphere is just electric. We're seeing a lot of people

come through the turnstiles here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. You know, we didn't talk about the video game MLB, the show and the inclusion of the Negro Leagues in the video game, which may be the biggest thing that this museum has ever done. Because guys, we're talking millions upon millions of young people and young adults who are not only learning about the Negro Leagues, but they're falling in love with the Negro Leagues because we brought it to them in a mode and medium in which they are accustomed to engaging with. And we have a five-year partnership with Sony PlayStation for that inclusion of the Negro Leagues, which we debuted in the 23 version of the game.

And this is second year in 24. And it's just exciting to see all of these revelations that are happening in and around Negro Leagues baseball history. And it comes at a perfect time, as we mentioned, as we are now dreaming about a new home for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. Fantastic. Well, Bob, thank you again. And I am looking forward to you and me, man. We're going to get some barbecue and then we're going to... Hey, you got a deal.

All right. You got a deal. You let me know when you're headed to KC. All right. Thanks again. You take care. Thank you for sharing all of it. Well, my friends, that wraps up this bonus episode.

If you'd like more, head over to htdspodcast.com and become a premium member to hear an extra segment from my conversation with Bob Kendrick, where we talk about Major League Baseball finally adding player stats from the Negro Leagues into the official record. HTDS premium members also get every HTDS episode ad-free and early.

More stories and other member benefits. We'll be back next week right here in your podcast feed with another storytelling episode continuing our narrative through the Roaring Twenties. History That Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Episode produced by Dawson McCraw

with editorial assistance by Riley Neubauer. Production by Airship. Sound design by Molly Bach. Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. Sound design by Molly Bach. Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. Visit HTDSpodcast.com for more information. HTDS is supported by premium membership fans. You can join by clicking the link in the episode description. My gratitude to Kind Souls providing additional funding to help us keep going.

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