History That Doesn't Suck - 45: Volume IV Epilogue

Episode Date: August 19, 2019

"They are beautiful words, they are beautiful ideals... and there is beauty in seeing others as they make those words shift and close the gap towards reality" Today, we wrap up Volume IV: “Prelude to the Civil War.” Greg acknowledges some more pronunciation failures, the HTDS team mentions two fun emails, then gets to analysis. Particularly, we’re discussing how the Union tried over and over again to compromise on slavery but came to its breaking point in 1860. Listen to Greg, Josh, and Cielle connect past episodes as they explain why that was the case. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What did it take to survive an ancient siege? Why was the cult of Dionysus behind so many slave revolts in ancient Rome? What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen and Jenny from Ancient History Fangirl. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue. Now, on with the show.

Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and today we are epiloguing. So here I am with the crew, Josh, Ciel. What's up, everybody? Hey, guys. And let's go ahead and dive into the corrections, as we like to call it, which apparently is just things that Greg can't pronounce. And I love it. Hopefully we stay there. Let's keep looking there. It's a good place. Which, give yourself some credit, you know, there's not that many this time around.

No, no. Yeah, it's lessened. I mean, I look forward to the barrage of emails that will come later about things that are in this episode and will perpetually go back. But that's okay. I always want to hear from people. If I mispronounce your hometown. Please.

Please let me know. And then upload a video on YouTube so that next time we can get it right. Exactly. In fact, you know what? Do a solve right now. You live in some obscure place that we might mention later and it's spelled in English, but of course it has a French pronunciation because you live in Louisiana or has a Spanish. Or the other way around. Yes. Or whatever. Indigenous language is influencing it and etc by all means upload that youtube video now so that i can look it up later appreciate that but at any rate we will go ahead and we'll do that we'll get to some emails and we'll get into connecting big picture stuff for this last volume

right okay so the corrections we it's just one right right? Yeah, this time. Excellent. So I am truly saddened to acknowledge this one because it has a French pronunciation. Yeah. It does. Yeah. The one time that you don't go for it. I know, right? The singular time. I'm probably too French pronunciation happy, if anything.

But it is not mobile alabama it's mobile alabama i wish i could remember i apologize to the listener by all means shoot me an email or tweet i'll acknowledge you later but someone from the region reach out to me reach out to me on twitter and mentioned that it's not mobile and we're totally going to take a shot at cl's husband for this yeah no he got it really wrong guys those texans it turns out they're not right about everything with nothing but love to our texas listeners uh i'm just gonna throw all texans under the bus as i throw my husband under the bus because it makes it smoother and throwing your husband under the bus but hey you know what you know it's fine throw him under the bus as I throw my husband under the bus. Sure, because it makes it smoother in throwing your husband under the bus. But hey, you know what? No, it's fine. Throw

him under the bus. But that said, joking aside, the buck stops here, right? I'm at the mic. So, if I choose to lean upon your husband's suggested pronunciation, that's on you. It's on me. Yeah, but thanks for correcting us and we will get it right from here on out it's mobile it is it is indeed mobile so mobile alabama someone can tell me later that i didn't pronounce alabama right so moving moving along yeah to our fan mail yes yes uh today we're just gonna acknowledge the kens. The Kens. The Kens, yeah. Who are awesome and send us great stories. We appreciate it. Really good.

So let's first go with Kenny from Lawrence, Kansas. He simply acknowledged or acknowledged, expressed his appreciation that we got Lawrence on the History That Doesn't Suck map. Yeah. Yeah. He really liked the bleeding kansas episode and he talked about how he uh he's really proud of his hometown of lawrence and really proud of its uh anti-slavery history and i got the impression that he seemed to be more or less speaking for well kind of the attitude there yeah that there was a lot of the sentiment he was kind of saying that yeah that's the vibe I got.

Yeah. So glad to know that Lawrence, Kansas is up on its. Reppin. Yeah, it's reppin its history. That's right. Yeah. And this one makes the cut. We're definitely not going to go through all the emails that we've gotten.

We're keeping a pretty pretty trim this time around. But this one certainly makes the cut because Ken, God bless you, sir. You made me laugh my head off as I sat in a painful layover in an airport. We'll just leave off which one it is. Chicago. So Ken in Minnesota, he's involved in law enforcement. He's a big fan of the podcast. And apparently when he has to arrest someone, he doesn't turn off the podcast. And they just get to listen along with him. That's right. On the ride down to, you know.

I don't know. It was a long way over. I'd had two flights before. One ahead of me. Maybe I was in such a state of delirium. It was funnier than it is. I think it's a great story okay okay i'm not nuts here i just i don't know i'd never really thought about an officer driving his

patrol car and in the back is some someone who's just been picked up for whatever yeah we're gonna go ahead and say something innocuous because i the story gets less funny if it's something serious right yeah so you know some kids tagging or whatever yeah and well now you're gonna learn all about jefferson's presidency or whatever it may be right andrew jackson you guys are gonna be experts by the time we get. That's right. Ken, I hope you sometimes take the long route to the station. 30 minutes just circling the block. You need this one. All right.

We'll leave it there, though. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks, Kenz, for the emails. Yes. We appreciate them. They're really great. Thanks to whoever that was, again, on Twitter.

Yeah. Reach out. Let us know. We'll give you a shout out. Let me know how many things I'm not pronouncing correctly. It's great. You know, I don't mind if someone wants to send that email saying, hey, Greg, really respect the way that you have good diction and switch between French and Spanish and

all these names that are in America's cornucopia. So are you fishing for a compliment there, Greg? I think I'm being far more blatant than fishing, Ciel. Yeah. That's okay. That's okay. Raking in whatever he can right now. It's all right.

Look, when I grade my students' papers, I do try to remember to write in like, hey, this was good here. But it's what you do, right? Yeah, yeah. The bad. Yeah. Here's everything you need to fix. Hand it back. Try to be better than that it's it's fine that's how it is joking aside um i mean look my mom will send me the complimentary email so you don't need to worry about it

please do keep letting us know when i mispronounce your hometown or or whatever or your ancestor or who yes your ancestor's name yep Yep, throwback to Chris there. Okay, but enough on that. Let's get to the big overview of this volume. Yeah. Yeah, so I think a lot of people were thinking, awesome, time to get to the Civil War. And then we spent-

And then we didn't. Eight episodes covering the causes of the Civil War. But guess what's coming? Yep, now we're there. Now we're there. We're just, you know, months. And I think that in part from some of the emails that we were getting from listeners, there was definitely some like, oh, yeah, you know.

Getting into the Civil War. It's time for the Civil War. Yeah. Here we go. Fort Sumter. Oh, La Amistad. Oh, Solomon Northup. Right.

Right. Oh, Seneca Falls. Which, I mean, I guess now I'm getting super theoretical here. We didn't have to per se tell some of these specific stories, but they're good stories. I think they're important stories. They help give us a better understanding of the social milieu. There we go.

Got some French in there. Exactly. I kept it pretty American on the pronunciation. Oh, yeah. Yeah, come on. People will know what you said. Yeah. But these stories,

they do build a better, larger foundation for understanding the many social issues that are at play in the 1850s, just how divisive, or rather, divisive is definitely an accurate word, but to a head, the issues of slavery that they're coming to a head. Right, right. Because it's been divisive all along. But yeah, these things start to build as we start to add more states to the nation and add more territories to the nation. And then, yeah. Well, and we have more Americans, they're questioning and thinking deeper in a way about ideas that are germane

to the founding of the United States. And we talk about all men created equal. What does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean? So you see it explored at Seneca Falls, and you see it explored with Frederick Douglass and the abolitionist movement. And yeah, you see these ideas of what does all men created equal mean? Is that white men?

Is that white landowning men? Or could it be broader than that? Yeah, and when we say men, are we doing that in that old mankind sort of term? That's definitely falling out of usage in the 21st century. I think more and more, especially scholars are shifting to- Men and women. Yeah, men and women, humanity, terms that you don't have to go back and explain no no we really mean everyone man but we totally mean everyone right right but these are issues

that are being explored and debated and thought through in the you know early to mid 19th century i think that's why we did it i think that's why we had to have this build up up to the civil war because we wanted to paint the picture of all these things coming to a head, the background to add more gravitas to what is about to go down in the Civil War and even more vitriolic that the things are going to get as we hit into the Civil War. It doesn't have as much hit if you don't understand all that background yeah and all that build up and all the different topics that are being discussed and even though for instance women's rights is going to be a much larger a much longer path you know it's it's not going to come to fruition soon it's still got a few decades, even half a century before we get to really percolating at the national level. We can see these roots, all these ideas, these concepts of thinking through these. Well, I'm getting a little circular, but you get my point.

Yeah, you can see all of these people trying to explore what this could look like. And so you've got your outliers like Elizabeth Cady Stanton who are like, no, women are equal to men. Women should be able to own property and vote. And then, but you do, you have a spectrum along all of these different social issues. And like you were saying, Josh, if you don't understand that spectrum of ideas with social issues and political issues, then when it comes time for, when it comes time that those states secede, that you've got Southern states seceding, you won't understand the ideas as much. So that's why we gave our listeners this great background on all of these complex issues and where people stand on them. Well, in some of these that we'll swing back to later as well, you're talking about temperance or we are talking about women getting the vote.

I think that those stories will be, I don't want them to feel rushed. You know, more than not feel rushed, I want them to be rushed. So when we do get to the 20th century and, you know, we're talking about prohibition, well, you'll, listeners will be able to reflect back on, right, this has been, we've seen the stepping stones

that's been leading the United States in this direction for decades. Yeah. Yeah. And when you see the, which we'll cover a little bit when we get to the Civil War, when you see the women's rights movement growing and you see the respect that women get for the roles that they play in the war, especially in the medical professions, then it makes a little more sense. Oh yeah, but that harkens back to the arguments that were being made at Seneca Falls. This isn't the first time women have demanded this kind of respect and equality. So yeah, so then it'll, and we'll just continue to build from there all the way, you're right, into the 20th and 21st century.

So all that said, I think we should kind of go through some of the legislation, though, that's really moving us towards the Civil War. Let's connect some of the bigger dots. So just in case anyone's kind of gotten lost along the way, we'll take ourselves through the legislation. Yeah, good idea. Let's do it. Okay. I think, first of all, we need to remember the Missouri Compromise of 1820. Yes.

Right. I mean, that was, as it elicited calls of, you know, doe face and whatnot and resulted in a lot of people losing office. Yeah, for being willing to fight for a compromise and vote for a compromise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the massive, super strong Band-Aid that held a fissure that was very much already there. Mm-hmm. It's in place. It's not like-

It's not like it was created while it was happening. Yeah. Yeah. That last decade leading up to the Civil War, the 1850s, oof, the fissure's pretty deep. Yeah. But it has been there so that compromise just to remind everyone uh we had parallel 36 30 everything that all u.s territory below yeah below it would be slave territory and with of course the exception of bringing in bringing in Missouri as a state, as a slave state,

but then everything north of it. And the territory we're talking about at this point is the territory that's been acquired through the semi, I mean, 17 years, semi-recent Louisiana purchase. And so this to me is a crucial thing to see is that the slavery conundrum, which in a way was kind of settled uncomfortably in the constitution with it being permitted as a constitutional constitutionally permitted thing. Yes. It's written into it. It was every time more territory was acquired and it had to be more discussion

of, well, is this going to be free or slave area? That's what always kicked up, you know, like discussion. Yeah. The debate or yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, we, we saw that with the acquisition of Louisiana territory. The bandit kind of worked. But then what happens? We go to war with Mexico and we get a bunch of new land where slavery has not been allowed because Mexico had abolished slavery before the war. So then you've got people who say, OK, well, that's easy. Just take that 3630 and extend it right to the ocean. No problem. And then you've got people who already think, well, this was a land grab for slaveholders. And that 3630 line really only applied to

Louisiana Purchase and let's dial it back. No slavery. Well, and you're going to have, we didn't touch on this, but even ecological factors, the climate, you're not setting up a cotton plantation in Phoenix, Arizona. No, you are not. That's just not, I'm sorry if I'm breaking the heart of any would-be cotton farmer out there who had ambitions to move to the Southwest, but don't get that loan just yet.

And by the way, if you find a bank that's willing to give you a loan for that, don't trust that bank with anything. They're going under pretty quick. Nope. Not the sharpest tools there. Yeah. I mean, there are people who make the argument when they get to california oh yeah i could have the slaves work the mines for me right and we brought that up with the gold rush right but no for the most part the climates um and the ecology of the territory that is required acquired from

mexico yeah does not, would not work well for the plantation. Well, and it is, I think somewhat fair to point out that while Mexico had abolished slavery, some of its labor practices could get pretty dicey, but nonetheless with it, at least being technically,

you know, if he did not have a 40 hour work week. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, at least being technically you know if you did not have a 40-hour work week yeah um yeah i was gonna say and there's a lot of uh mistreatments starting with indigenous people as well well and we touched on that we did we kind of talked on that but but that's yeah that's kind of what you're getting at yeah um it's uh yeah i think i think it's worth at least pointing out. But yeah, it just how do you go into these territories where under Mexico there's no slavery and now you're going to say

but now there will be. Right. Well, and you know all of the settlers who are already in California by the time that land is acquired didn't bring slaves with them and yeah yeah it's um it's tricky it's tricky hence you get the compromise of 1850 yes which tries to deal with all of this mess it tries to it tries really hard it really does henry clay gives up his career over it man yeah yeah that's a good point yeah he really does. Henry Clay gives up his career over it, man. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, he really does. So it's months and months and months of anguish to get that compromise through. And in the end, I don't think the compromise of 1850 is as effective as the compromise of 1820. No. Well, I mean, it's basically just downhill, you know, perpetually. From there. From the Missouri Compromise, you know, getting to the Compromise of 1850, which way less sexy name, by the way. Oh, right.

I don't know. Like, let's just throw the year on it. This is when we compromised, guys. It was 1850. We made a compromise. Done. Yep. And so, California does come in as a free state.

And in a way, we kind of start touching on some of the things that we're going to see four years later. There's a little bit of this, well, you know, we're going to let Utah Territory and- New Mexico Territory. Yeah, they can make up their own mind. Yeah, we'll let the people decide. That's right. And it sounds like a great idea. But, yeah. the people decide. That's right. And it sounds like a great idea. But

yeah. But yeah. So this amazing compromise makes it a whopping four years before we get to Kansas, Nebraska. That act. Kansas, Nebraska.

Not that we're blaming Kansas and Nebraska. Noaska for no no there you go kansas yeah you just started i i just think i'm caught up still maybe on the compromise that like go ahead that we i'm trying to not make a a statement present day statement on politics, but isn't it interesting that people are spending months and months and months over a compromise? Right? Not necessarily in part also fighting months and months to

not necessarily just prove my side and 100% this is my side, but it's months and months. And it's partly that too, don't get me wrong. But it's months and months of compromise as well. Yeah. Of figuring out what each side needs and trying to bring it to the table. Yeah.

And like Greg said, it only lasts four years. Yep. But that effort is there. Well, we see it in a number of people. I mean, Henry Clay basically dies over, well, not physically dies, but you know, his career dies over it. Right. But then you have other people that, and I do feel like the, you know, the Civil War,

it's really propelled by people who don't, well, who are just really looking to push. Their agenda. I mean, yeah. So I think of the justice the supreme court justice tani yeah i am wow talk about just pushing us right to the brink when he just tries to you know essentially railroad slavery through the country yeah and just says you know i know we've tried this compromise. I know we've tried this popular sovereignty idea.

I don't like it. And here's my agenda. And I'm going to find a legal way to push it through. Yeah. In the worst Supreme court decision ever. Yep. I'm really. Oh,

really? Yeah. I'm not saying wow. As in like, I disagree with you. It's wow just like, that's a huge statement. It's a big statement, but there are a fair amount of legal minds. Yeah, it is a fair statement.

I mean, and talk about it. That's a legacy you don't want. Yeah. Yeah. Look at what I passed when I was seated. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are some other terrible Supreme Court decisions out there.

Oh, yeah. There's some close seconds and thirds. Yeah. But to hold the top seat, that's something to hang your head over and be ashamed. So instead of being remembered as the Supreme Court justice that swears in Lincoln as president, he's remembered as the Supreme Court justice who writes Dred Scott versus Sanford. Yeah. So a way to go out. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? Well, I've got the podcast for you. I'm Sean piles and I host nerd wallets smart money podcast. On our show, we help listeners like

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Listen to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. So CL, Josh, and I want to chat it up a bit about our experience with The Great Courses Plus. Yep. Look, I've already told you guys before, the app, it's the way to go. If you have a long commute like I do, which is 35 minutes, dreadful 35 minutes every day, it's the best way to do it. I just listen through the app. It's the way to go.

CL, aren't you listening to something super interesting right now, by the way? Yeah, I just picked up a new... So I've been listening to several different courses, but I just started this new one. Yeah, you crank through those. I really do. Yeah, it's the best way to get through long errand running, kid dropping off, which is half of my life. So I just previewed this new course that's about to drop.

It's called The Real History of Secret Societies, and it's been created in partnership with the History Network. The teacher, Dr. Richard Spence, does a great job sorting reality from myths and conspiracies and takes a deep dive into the brotherhoods and orders and cults, you know, the ones we all know, like the Illuminati, the Knights Templar, even Japan's Black Dragons. It's a fascinating topic. I can't wait to delve into it with Dr. Spence. And I'll just remind everyone that this is only one example of many various courses you can listen to. I'm upping my chess game and have other courses queued up. One's on probability, another's on game theory, and still another is

a course called Inventions That Changed the World. You really can stream a course on just about anything taught by the best minds at the best institutions in any given field. So I'll encourage you to take a page out of our book and give The Great Courses Plus a go. You can get a month of completely free unlimited access by signing up at the following website, thegreatcoursesplus.com forward slash HTDS, just the initials of the show. Make sure you use the HTDS URL so that you receive your free month of The Great Courses Plus, and you'll also be shown some love for history that doesn't suck. So again, that URL is thegreatcoursesplus.com forward slash HTDS. And now back to the epilogue. So, yeah, we've got that Dred Scott decision.

We've got the Kansas-Nebraska Act where Stephen Douglas is saying, yeah, we'll throw it to the people, which kind of in a way is opening it up to being anywhere, especially with the way that that interprets fugitives, well, the way that slaves should be treated if they're taken by an owner from a slave state into free territory. Well, clearly, per this case, they can't sue. They won't actually have their freedom, even though that reverses- Decades of precedent. Yeah. So, in a way, many Northerners and anti-slavery supporters, especially abolitionists, they're looking at going, I mean, you basically just legalize slavery everywhere. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. And so, you know, of course, you can see where that is very much going to propel the country to do some crazy stuff. And, you know, we're already seeing, I think, you know, we've got got to remember we're also already seeing violence in congress yes you know so it's not like you know as we are about to start

the actual civil war it's not like this is some out of the blue shots are finally being fired i mean kansas you know to john brown okay basically anywhere John Brown goes. Let's just follow John Brown around, see the violence that crops up after him. Right. I'd just like to be remembered as a guy that just no matter where you go, incites violence. I mean, I know that's not his whole life, but you know. No, and you know, well, let's circle back to that, but talk about a complicated figure, you know with a such a laudable and such a difficult though at the same time history yeah and his legacies it's interesting because

for anybody who was looking at the abolition cause let's go there now let's just do this so um anybody who's looking at the abolitionists or looking to be against slavery the problem is his methods yeah are so violent and deadly. I mean, you have a hard time getting behind that and supporting that. Even if you think his cause is just, it's hard to say someone who murders people in cold blood in the middle of the night in front of their families is a hero. 100%. Yes. Yeah. When you put it that that way way to lay it out there

on the table and and yet i mean he's he's seen what i don't i don't know yeah i see where i see where you're going yeah he's seen the horrible ethics of slavery well that that you know you've got so many generations. I mean, going back to the Constitution itself, right? Americans have been trying to navigate- Kind of flesh out. Well, yeah, this frankly god-awful practice of slavery that's so contradictory to the Declaration of Independence, as Abraham Lincoln pointed out, as Stephen Douglas tried to argue it was not.

They've been trying to have a nonviolent means of ending this thing since the beginning. Since the beginning. I mean, that's what the International Slave Trade Band was in 1808. And everyone had themselves, and I don't mean this- Farther back than that, three-fifths compromise. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right, and all these thoughts of like, okay, you know, I mean, the economy's changing in the mid-Atlantic, or, you know,

farmland's getting worn out. Slavery's gonna die on its own. Oh, okay, it didn't die. We'll do an international slave ban. Okay, oh, crap, that didn't do it. All right, well, Missouri compromised, and maybe this will dial back. So you can see all these efforts to peacefully end this erroneous practice, this sin. And by the time we get to John Brown, especially as Senator, I'm saying that guy's name right without the script in front of me, Atchison?

Yeah, Atchison. That's what we decided. Yeah, Davey Atchison from Missouri. You know, here's this guy who's, man, his comment, we're going to Mormonize the abolitionists, right? Like he's violently imposing slavery on Kansas. And John sees, okay, well, fire with fire. You're going to violently impose slavery on developing states.

We're going to violently fight back. Yeah. And meanwhile, in Congress, here you've got Preston Brooks literally almost beating to death Senator Sumner from Massachusetts. I don't know. I'm not one who likes violence or war. As I sit back and try and think, what are ways that slavery could have ended, that the United States could have moved forward without going to that place? I can't think of one. Like you have to put-

Which I hate to say. Yeah, it's- I hate to acknowledge, but it just seems like it- It was on that track from not, maybe not the beginning, but so many other things were, were tried and they didn't work. Yeah. So,

so many compromises. And then like, we just detailed out like all that legislation that was tried to, okay, well maybe if we contain it, okay, well maybe if we, you know, but that's the thing.

We're about to come to serious, serious mass violence. Yeah. Right. Well, and this is what, what so many generations of Americans were trying to avoid. serious mass violence. Yeah, right. Well, and this is what so many generations of Americans were trying to avoid, right? Yeah.

A war of this magnitude that is going to just obliterate the United States in so many ways. Right. You know, and to this day, in many ways, has still left scar tissue in our national fabric. Oh, definitely. Right? And that was the goal is to avoid that.

And I'm sure, you know, some had to be in the North and looking at how, again, something that's important for us to remember, the North practiced slavery too. But slavery was able to come to a close peacefully up there. Of course, it's because it wasn't economically viable. It's not that Northerners are magically more moral than Southerners. Yeah, or less racist or anything like that. Yeah, no. And as we've seen, right, with the settling of Oregon to Illinois, all of these awful laws in the Illinois state constitution, right?

Sure. Is a slavery being practiced there? Well, no, but black settlers are literally banned from the state. Right. You know, so it's, it's a mess. It's a mess. Yeah. So that's basically what we covered for an entire volume was the mess that everyone was

trying to avoid with Bloodshed with John Brown just went, you know, I'm just not going to avoid Bloodshed anymore. I'm just going to go straight for it. But, you know, and the thing that, you know, it sat with me almost like a ghost for days after recording and it still, you know, hits me from time to time is that note he wrote and handed to the guard on his way out to the execution. This is a guy who, yes, was willing to resort to violence, but it's not like he was some sort of sociopath who saw it. Yeah, who wanted it. He was just someone who, just someone who takes a broadsword to farmers uh you know was someone who

who saw that this is the point that basically anti-slavery movement abolitionism to be more precise was was i guess going to have to go to i mean when even frederick douglas is like okay i got to acknowledge that like you're going a little farther oh no no well he initially he's not down with it but he uh eventually comes around kind of says yeah it's we're getting to that point yeah we're gonna have to draw blood yeah i guess that's true you know so when yeah when even frederick's going there that's where you know you kind of have to pause yeah well and when you've got southerners who are going there as well because remember that we talked about john c calhoun the senator from south carolina and he predicts on his deathbed that it will come to war it will come to war within three presidential elections he says and it will be because um someone who is anti-slavery comes to office and that's what he predicts and

that's what he sees and that is exactly what happens nails it yeah lincoln's elected boom lincoln is elected south carolina secedes a month later yep we're out and then it's basically just dominoes yeah yeah so you've got those seven states that we talked about in the last episode of this volume we've got those seven states that follow you follow and it's all the lower ones so um it's Texas all the way across the Gulf Coast, all the way to Florida, and then South Carolina is your last one. Well, it's your first one. First one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, the last will be first, and the first will be last. Exactly. Let's bring scriptural references into it. But yeah, no, John C. Calhoun gets it right

away. So you've got Northerners who see it's just going to have to come to bloodshed and you've got Southerners who are already predicting that there's just not going to be a peaceful way to resolve this conflict. And we're going to hit the Civil War. There we are. And there we are with a few trapped soldiers at Fort Sumter getting fired on. It's crazy. Jeez. It's a bone.

I feel like you have to insert a song right here. It's going down for real. Do you want to make it into a music video, Josh? Because it's, yeah. I mean, I'm not making light of it because it's very serious. I still think it holds, totally correct me if I'm wrong, Civil War holds the stat. Don't worry, we will.

For the highest American death count because they're all American. To date, actually, I think is, I could be wrong on the stat, but I'm pretty sure the Civil War holds the highest death count. For the most Americans killed in a single war, right? I'm pretty sure you're right about that, Greg. Do you know that off the top of your head? Why are you putting me on the top of your head? Put me on the spot with numbers like that.

Someone can correct me and I'll look it up, but I'm almost positive. I shouldn't. And I'm pointing out it's death, not, um, casualty. Because people get that messed up with world war two as well.

Yeah. People will say like, Oh, 75 million casualties. So yeah, we're about to hit, uh, some heavy stuff. Yeah, we definitely are. And say like, oh, 75 million casualties. So yeah, we're about to hit some heavy stuff. Yeah, we definitely are. And it's just watching the South secede and watching the different reactions in the North. Well, some people are like, let him go. We don't need to

fight about it. Just let him go. It's going to be fine. And other people are like, no, you can't leave. And the different arguments against it, I think are really interesting, those different. And again, coming back to people are complex. Nobody you can't leave. And the different arguments against it, I think are really interesting, those different. And again, coming back to people are complex. Nobody fits in a box, right? There's a ton of different reactions to watching the South leave as to whether or not it's okay. And like we said, there's those lower seven and then you've got upper South States that sit there,

oh, what should we do? And yeah. Yeah, talk about an interesting, almost man in the high castle scenario if you were to think back, like what would have happened if we would have let him go? Yeah. Right?

You know, like what would we look like now? Or not look like now. Yeah. That is an interesting thing to think about. Well, see, I just don't think it could have happened because, I mean, you would have had to have worked out some sort of treaty on what happens with U.S. territory. What happens with federal property? Because they would say we have an equal claim. Yep.

And I just think you would have had conflict all the way across. You basically would have just had the United States of America, the Confederate States of America. And then it would have been probably just constant warfare. I really, yeah. War. Between. The moment that this, you know, that the Confederate states are getting set up, war's coming. There's, there is no way around it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting.

So this doesn't end up in the script. Anyway, but there are Southerners who honestly think, don't worry. It's a peaceful revolution, guys. We're just going to walk away. They genuinely think that. That's not coming to bludge it. Now, don't get me wrong. Most Southerners don't think that. Right. Jefferson Davis is like, no, I'm willing to throw down. It's going to be fine.

But there are some who genuinely think this is going to be a peaceful revolution. They will just leave and you know looking back at 1776 i don't know why they you know wouldn't think that right because that was a very peaceful just leaving england they just let us go that was so chill yeah and there was an ocean between us at that stage of the game yeah that's true you, we're talking like just, you know, the next state up. And talk about a different status. Colonies of a, you know, just a small colonies. Of a world empire. Versus, you know, integral pieces of the country.

Yeah, half a country and, you know, integral part of the economy. Sure, we'll just, no problem. And I'm not trying to. How do I say this? Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to say this. You're all sorts of pauses tonight. What you got? Yeah.

I mean, this is a huge part of their economy. And I know we're going to get into this, right? But like, you're basically asking us to completely uproot what makes these states thrive. And that's where these states are ready and willing to go to war right I mean and it's where you know I mean I'm just we're getting a lot better in the historical profession and in the American you know

dialogue at acknowledging slavery's kind of being the centerpiece yeah of the war but yeah I mean this is where it it does uh get framed or you know couched in in other terms i guess i'm just trying to point out that it's not completely a moral uh point for them right slavery good or bad like there's

way more complex factors that are going on. Yeah. They see the dollar signs. Yes. Yeah. And there are people who argue, you know, using Christianity to back them up.

Slavery is right and we are 100% justified. Yeah. Stop telling us it's wrong. It's in the Bible. Yeah. And there are, you know, dozens of quotes from preachers

and from politicians who say, slavery is right and stop telling us it's wrong. We're sick and tired of hearing those abolitionist moral arguments. That's ridiculous. But yes, at the end of the day, the people who secede in South Carolina are the top tier of the economy. 90% of the secessionists who sign the secession order in South Carolina own slaves. 90% of the people who do that, and it's because they see the dollar signs, like you said, right?

Yeah, they are attached and they are not willing to let that go. And they are willing to not send themselves, they're a bunch of old dudes, but, you know, they're kids and grandkids to war for that piece of the economic pie. Well, and you know, we will,

as we've done with us history, right up to this point, we're going to continue to give all the nuance and complexity. I mean, we're not going to shy away from acknowledging what I think everyone's probably seen the last few episodes. Slavery is the centerpiece of this war. Yes.

Yeah. But you know, we will, as, as we don't shy away from straight up facts we're going to give the nuance and that includes uh what various groups think you know and view themselves as fighting for right you know and that just as uh you know you shouldn't um boil this down to the you know righteous armies of the North fighting the evil armies of the South. Because even these Northern soldiers, they're fighting-

Conflicted wars too. Well, yeah. Inside themselves. And they're not- Family members on both sides. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that happens. And it's not like union troops are all marching off because they feel so

strongly that they need to end slavery, you know, and like, I wish I I'd love it if that were the case, but it wasn't. No. So, you know,

we're, we're going to get into all of these reasons. Perfect. Like that. Thank you. That's, that's what I was trying to say. You're welcome,

Josh. Thank you. No, really. So, yeah, I mean, you know, because that's what we're about, right? We want to tell the full story. We want to tell everyone's story. Exactly.

And sometimes it's ugly and sometimes it's something to be proud of. Now, before we go on, I want to tell you about the continuing education programs at University of California, Irvine, or UCI. Since 1962, this top 50 school has been providing learning pathways for those looking to step up their career or just learn more. And you can take advantage of UCI's division of continuing education programs from anywhere. In fact, they have over 30,000 people enrolled from all over the world right now. So whether you're listening to us in the US or on the other side of the world, like those of you in Britain, what up? You can enroll in any courses, certificates, or specialized studies programs that interest you or could further your career. And when I say any course, I do mean just about

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I think that this might even be a good note to end on. I'd mentioned this earlier before we got rolling and I want to, I do just want to point out that, you know, we're clearly dealing with

some of the most uncomfortable parts of American history. Yes. Which, hey, that's, it's not fun. It needs to be done. Yeah. People need the information. We need to discuss it.

But it's also, is heartening the word I want? As we've been going through these episodes, from the Seneca Falls Convention to John Brown, right before they move in on Harper's Ferry. See, I'm spacing one other. What was it? Oh, well, no, you're not spacing one other. But our foundational documents, you know, Declaration of Independence, Constitution. I feel like in many ways, and you know here i'll be the the

sappy patriot that i can be at times uh even through acknowledging some very painful things uh because i i feel like that that's what it really means to actually care about and love your country it's not just saying look how amazing we are it's recognizing all your black yeah being able to face down your demons. But seeing these people who are willing to push America to, to a better place, looking back to those documents and being able to see the germ of, of,

of greater things than, you know, that generation, that generation was able to write to, you know, write words that spoke to a level that they themselves could not achieve right yeah so when they say oh you know all men are created equal and then elizabeth katie stanton says yes all men and women yes right exactly yeah that's goosebumps isn't it yeah it's amazing yeah

you know i mean i in some ways i i kind of look back on the founders and I see like the very, you know, out of shape, not taking good care of themselves person who's kind of looked in the mirror and said, it's time to diet and exercise. And in this personification of America, I feel like that's what we see by and large through us history. I mean, and sometimes America falls off the diet, you know, stops working out, puts back on a couple of pounds, a couple of pounds.

Yeah. Uh, you know, but by and large kind of struggles forward and, you know, we, I don't know. I,

I, I think that it's, um, I guess that's, that's just the way I see it. And it's the way I like to think through it is that, um, we've come a long way. Yeah. We continue to be able to see in those founding documents, you know, the, that I, ideal that we strive for even, even today, you know, we're still striving for it and, you know, trying to be a more perfect union that even they saw it right they didn't say that they were forming a perfect perfect union right right and it's really cool to acknowledge the um the contributions of the men and women of these pretty difficult years before the civil war in really working toward perfecting

yes getting closer to those ideals building on that foundation maybe in some ways that even the people who who built the foundation wouldn't have you know seen or appreciated some of them did some of them did you know i can think back on a number of those of our founders who you know um who did hate slavery or, you know, wanted to see a more inclusive environment. And at any rate, they're beautiful words, they're beautiful ideals, and it's as painful as it is to see them not lived up to. At least there's the beauty of seeing others from,

you know, even if it's complicated with john brown i don't know how much i can condone you know the approach yeah um you know to uh elizabeth kate stanton and frederick douglas and so on uh as they make those words shift just a little bit closer yeah towards towards reality all right so before we end we want to add a new segment shall we say right to the epilogue yeah as we're thinking and evolving trying to figure out what we're doing a fourth time around we're starting to get the hang of this let's let's just go through very briefly the hardest things about this volume for each of us yeah because yeah we each have a different perspective on what briefly the hardest things about this volume for each of us yeah because yeah we each have a different perspective on what was the hardest thing we do during this volume for

us absolutely josh do you want me to start you want to start this bad boy off yeah man the hardest thing for me this volume um constantly editing out greg mispronouncing potomac i have some words for you. You ready to use that bleep of yours? You saw it. Oh, no. I mean, it was kind of funny to hear that over and over and over and over. And no, there were some, in all seriousness, there were some really tricky sound effects.

This volume. Yeah. Every time Josh looks at a script and he sees all the sound effects that Greg and I have come up with. What you say when you look at the script. Yeah, when I see the script and I see, so everybody kind of knows background, the script, we highlight certain sections. And anything that's a sound effect is highlighted in orange. So if I'm going through a script when we're recording and i see just nothing but orange not even you know a disregard for just just straight orange everywhere uh i know it's

gonna be a rough editing for the next and i probably wrote that section yeah i know i can see this part yells like orange you know three paragraphs later orange you know greg it's like, orange, you know. Three paragraphs later, orange. Orange. You know, Greg is like, okay, we got orange, orange, orange, orange, orange. And new paragraph, orange, orange. Though I have to say, Ciel's stepping it up. I am. Yeah, I was proud of you. Yeah.

Which episode was that? I don't even remember. Yeah, but I am. Were you a flippant with your orange sound effects? Yeah, and I just kept inventing new things that josh could certainly find a sound effect for right i think the last one was find dixie and let's have that play yeah oh yeah that was good i think i made a comment like man greg like you're you got a lot of sound effects in this in this section here and you're like yeah i see i wrote that i was like oh i'm not i'm not used to that hey but i i love that we're so merged at this point i know that josh can't

even tell when we're trying to torture him that's right no i mean it's a team effort now josh yeah clearly hey i actually though let me say compliments to you sir the last i think it was the last episode 44 abraham lincoln becomes president of uh what do we call it was the last episode, 44. Abraham Lincoln becomes president of the, what do we call it? The divided states. So good. Dude, that opening was riddled with sound. Oh, this was one. I think, I don't remember if it was me or it was you.

No, no, that was definitely me. That's right. Find a sound effect for aiming a cannon. Aiming cannon. I was like, what? I'm sorry, but you did it. Way to be. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, mean i don't i say it as a difficult thing because it is right that's probably one of the most difficult parts of editing the show but it's also my pleasure you know i we know sir i enjoy it and we thank you

i hope everyone else enjoys it too i think they do yeah yeah all right my turn okay so the most difficult thing for me and of course i sit in a library and read books and write scripts and condense really boring books into something i hope that's entertaining i hope our listeners find it entertaining um but this past episode or this past volume when we did solomon northup there's a scene in his book where he describes a fellow slave being sold away from her child and we as the readers know and solomon knows because he had because he's writing from remembrance and he knows what's happened to this girl he we know that she is eventually going to be sold as a fancy girl and i thought i'd left fancy girls behind with episode 20 that we wouldn't be 19, 20. Anyway.

Around 20. Paul Parkett. That we wouldn't be discussing that anymore. But no, we were. And so I sat at my computer desk and in my office, we have a U-shape of desks. And so my son is sitting behind me on the computer, on his computer. And I'm sitting at my computer, sobbing, reading this girl's story of being sold away from her mother, knowing what her fate will be. And my son turns around and is like, Mom, are you okay? He's 13. So he was a little like, what's happening right now? I told him to leave me alone and bring me some Kleenex. Um, cause you know, I'm a good mom. Yeah. No, that was definitely the hardest thing to read and the hardest thing to write for sure of anything in this. And then I had to go back through and

edit it several times to make it clear what was happening and, you know, get the story across. And it was difficult every time I went through it. So yeah, that was the hardest thing for me. And I really, really, really don't want to read about fancy girls or write about them anymore although i i have a feeling i'll never really get away from them yeah yeah well and even even as that chapter comes to a close there's there's there's some other there's plenty of other women being exploited yeah that we will that will, that we'll be covering. We'll get to. Yep. All right.

What about you, Greg? So on that note. On that note. So for me and maybe even some of you listening have put this together about me. Josh, CL, you definitely know this i am in a constant state of semi-panic attack over many of of the scripts that we've written that we've done because i don't only obsess about getting my facts straight that is absolutely crucial to me and i mean it kills me to acknowledge as a human being right something's going to slip here and there I see it in peer-reviewed books for crying out

loud. Yeah, constantly. We've caught them writing episodes. So when we get to more sensitive topics though, I mean, the two of you know, I've sent you drafts of a script multiple times. Not that the facts change. And I will never shy away from just acknowledging what facts are. I think both of you know one of my absolute favorite quotes, John Adams. Facts are stubborn things. And whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they can alter the state of facts and evidence. But, and look, I'm not looking to dump on my own profession here, preface. Something that I think historians can sometimes

not be as good at is recognizing that tone does matter, that I never want to talk down to somebody that it is not easy to to entertain the idea that perhaps good well-intentioned people might have led you astray on understanding some facet of american history or something about you know your uh whatever subgroups history right and so forth so you you both know that I have felt tortured as we've handled other things in the past. I feel great about how we've gone through them. I'm glad to see that pretty much reflected, I think, in emails and comments from listeners

that they can see the great efforts gone to to represent multiple views and so on. But I recognize through this volume and into the next volume that i really don't have a dog in this fight i'm not a not that fight being the civil war and it's remembrance i think growing up in the western united states what you both did too we're a little less attached to it than our Eastern, not just Southern, but even up into the North, you know,

brothers and sisters, if you will. Yeah. It's kind of out of sight, out of mind. We don't have monuments here and there. Yeah, we don't drive past battle sites

or, yeah. No. I mean, if I try to remember the number of times I even saw a Confederate flag growing up, I don't know if I have a memory of it. mean i'm sure there was one somewhere yeah maybe i didn't know it but all i'm trying to say is i definitely don't have a dog in the fight which hopefully helps in terms of being you know not biased uh being very objective but i'm very cognizant that this is a a war that left wounds in the United States that have not yet healed.

And if there's one thing that I think we could do a bit better in the present as historians is rather than, and I'm not saying all historians do this, but sometimes we strike a visceral tone in wanting to really get across those facts. Prove a point, right? Yeah. And again, I'm all about the facts, and we're going to be so upfront and clear with that. I just hope that I am, as I fuss and writhe over these words,

not that I am comparing myself to this man in terms of greatness accomplished and whatnot, but kind of like Ciel, as we discussed Lincoln's debating how to deliver that. Inaugural address. Yeah, that inaugural address, right? And the language matters. And so all I guess I'm trying to say

in this far too long monologue now is that I want to do first and foremost, justice to truth and facts, because that's always, you know, the priority. That's always the priority. And I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I hate doing that, but that will come as it always has top tier. But I do hope that as we go through this, everyone's going to see that as we've gone through, let me say, this last volume. And as we go into this next volume, I hope that I succeed, that we succeed at delivering that same, even as we acknowledge absolutely upfront what the facts are,

that we succeed at showing the different sides and facets and views across geographical bounds, north-south, across social levels, and that those aren't even the only boundaries, right? It's not like there's a Northern perspective and a Southern perspective. Northerners have different views. Different Southerners have different views. So yeah, that's the thing. I lost sleep over in this volume and I know I'm just gonna lose more sleep over

in this next volume. For sure. No question. You know what? I'm gonna give a shout out to, once again, our buddy Steven in Pennsylvania. He recommended a great book. Or at least I think it's a great book.

Honestly, I'm going to start reading it here this next week. It's Confederates in the Attic. Right. Yeah, we both picked up copies. Yep. Which I hope will help me just have more perspectives.

Yeah. Because that's what I understand. The book does a great job. Yeah, understand. Yeah. Because that's what I understand. The book does a great job. Yeah. Understand every side. So that's it for me. You know, I'll just be sweating that as we go to the next volume too. Sweating that as we hit the Civil War.

Yeah. Because here we go. So let's go ahead and call it a day. And thanks as always for listening, everyone. Really, it's a blast seeing how many of you are listening at this point we are into the five digits on subscribers so thank you really from the bottom of our hearts um so i'll go ahead and close like you always yeah i'll do the usual here so join me in two weeks where I'd like to help us keep going. And a special thanks to our members, whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks,

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