History That Doesn't Suck - 57: Recap of The Civil War's First Half (1861-63)

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

"Keep the details! We love the stories!"  After 11 episodes covering the first half of the Civil War, it’s time to digest a bit. Greg, Josh, and Cielle attend to the usual roundtable business (pronunciation corrections and talking cotton production in Arizona!), then talk through the “who’s who” of our massive cast of characters. Enjoy one last chat before we dive into the final harsh years of the war.  ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue. Now, on with the show. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and today we're having an interlude.

I think that's the term we went with, right? Yeah. Right, my friends? Interlude, definitely. Right. So as you longtime listeners know, we do a little epilogue of sorts when we get done with the section. The Civil War is so long. long yeah we're still in it we're still going going strong plenty more to go so we thought we'd

go ahead and kind of catch our breath and review some things we want to talk through some of the major characters if you will the the big people uh do a little bit of historical review. And of course, we've got my most recent mispronounced geographical locations and all that fun stuff. So. Yeah, it's going to be a fun time. So for those of you who are just discovering the podcast, of course, by all means, give this a listen. We might recommend that you go listen to one of the narrated story episodes first. But I am Greg. And as always josh is here how's it going everybody and cl hey guys i just wanted to hear the hey guys i know you did

legendary set it up it is legendary it is it is okay so let's go ahead and get into a few corrections on some pronunciations uh thank you to Katie in Illinois and someone else on Patreon. I can't remember who it was and I couldn't track down the name. So my apologies. But in episode 47, we talked about Cairo, Illinois. That's how it's said? It is how it's said. It's spelled Cairo. Super spelled Cairo. But it's not. It's Cairo. So thank you, Katie, for letting us know. Yep. The joys

of regional pronunciations. And Cairo's going to be coming up, I believe, in... In like four or five episodes. We'll get back there just for a minute. So we'll... Yeah, and we'll do it right this time. It'll be great. Pronunciation of Tecumseh.

That's how it's said out where Tecumseh lived both the shawnee leader of war of 1812 fame and uh tecumseh william sherman who is the civil war general that we're talking about much more of late uh out west i've always heard it growing up as uh tecumseh is that how i've seen it before now i mean yeah that's how you pronounce it right yeah but that's that's just what i heard in classrooms and so forth but i want to say thank you to britney out in west virginia who let me know how it set out you know in their environs to throw in a little little french word so we're sticking with that from here on out which you may as well notice, um, moving right along from Kate.

Uh, I said Maria's Heights when we were talking about the battle of Fredericksburg. Yeah. Marie's Heights. Uh, Kate's a local. And so that's, that's how they say it out there.

Our pronunciation was based off of what we saw in the national park services video. So national parks, step it up. Or maybe they're going with the historical pronunciations. Yeah, who knows? But there you go. So moving right along, we have a really fun correction. And this is based on some statements I think I made or we made. Yeah, I think you said them in our last epilogue. Yes, in the last epilogue. So we were discussing the expansion of slavery and how slavery hit a little bit of a snag in its Western expansion in the South because, of course, you get to the desert and it's really hard to have a cotton plantation in, say, Arizona.

That is how we learned that Arizona cranks out cotton today. Yeah, it turns out it's not difficult at all to grow cotton in Arizona. I mean, all you need is modern day irrigation. So in the end, I appreciate those who emailed said totally get what you mean in historical context, but kind of fun to know now that Arizona actually produces a lot of cotton. So this is an email from Eric in Oregon. The Phoenix area is actually a major producer of cotton, but to be fair, that did not occur until the early 20th century. I was just amused. It's like saying you don't go to California to find gold or you don't go to Oregon to grow hops. Fair enough, Eric. And Mike in Arizona

itself, he said, Arizona is known for the five C's, which are copper, cattle, cotton, citrus, and climate. So with modern irrigation modern irrigation yes it apparently is a great place to grow cotton and an article if you really want to know down this that i found online produced by the arizona farm bureau so this is at azfb.org the article is entitled, Why in God's Name Are We Growing Cotton in the Desert? It sounds fun. I can't wait to read it. It doesn't get better than that. Come on.

No, it doesn't. You're such liars. But I sound like a professor that's trying to give out an article they need to read. That's right. Trying to sell it really hard. But also, this will be on the test, so you have to read it. Josh, you're having flashbacks to classes there's one question that's like a place where they grew cotton in the 20th century in the desert exactly so there we go um you know it's it's

always when you step out of your lane a little bit right that's that's where the that's where those sorts of little things can creep in okay we also wanted to address a question that a number of teachers, honestly, first and foremost, but a few others have asked about, and that's getting their hands on transcripts of the episodes. Which is tricky because when you look at our scripts, they make sense to us. There's a lot of highlighting, color coding for sound effects and different things and so they're kind of a mess but we hear what you're saying you want to have access to the scripts for students to read along for students who don't have access to podcast technology so well we've been working on this and uh at least one professor in Texas emailed about BDA requirements, right? Yeah.

So she wanted to assign a podcast episode, but of course- You have to stay compliant so that those who can't listen to it- Yeah, someone can't listen, they need to be able to read. So here at Loud and Clear, we have been busting our backsides, putting these into basically, you know, legible forms with the proper citations. Right. So you've got the footnotes. Yeah. So it has a more, basically we've changed this from being scripts to reading like a term paper. Well, more reading like a book chapter, right? So we've got some images for people to see.

We've got some text boxes for people to get a little bit more background. We've got, actually, we've got a text box on Lawrence Washington, right? So we're gonna give a little bit more background on him because yeah, he's not central to the story, but it's cool. So-

Well, and there were so many things that we couldn't include that- That are really interesting and we think you would enjoy. So first of all, Ciel explains this a million times better than me. I need to shut up and let her do all the explaining. But second, yes, this will be available. We're going to sell them on our website,

historythatdoesntsuck.com. I'm not going to promise a deadline, but within the very near future yeah we've got the first few ready to roll out um but we're waiting to have a few more and so that way you can you can purchase and download as a pdf either one episode at a time or groups of episodes at a small discount yeah yeah so we'll get the revolution out at least probably within the next weeks ish yeah to maybe a month or so and to the teachers who are thinking okay so now i'm gonna have to buy a copy for each student you have our blessing yep you buy one download photocopy pass it out to your class it's okay

yeah we understand that you've got some budget limits. We also understand you might not have a working photocopier at your school. So just whatever you got to do. Do what you need. Yeah. Yeah. Teachers. Just for the teachers. All right. So Scott from Southern California wanted to know why Ciel and Josh don't read some of the quotes. Mix up the voice a little bit. And it's a fair question, Scott. So thanks for sending it in. We've definitely talked a lot about it as a team. And what we decided is that, you know, when we started the podcast, Greg just read all of the scripts, right? And by the time we got big enough to even consider having someone else go behind the mic and maybe be a voice for a certain character, we were already too far down that road. And we just feel like the consistency

and keeping the consistency of how we tell a story is more important than bringing in different voices. It also is going to add a lot of complexity and work too. Yeah. Not that we already don't have a ton of work to make the episode itself, but maybe clear down the line, you know, when we're way bigger,

we actually can dramatize things a little more and have some voice actors or something. I think that'd be a different, but if we launched another show, it's something right. Like I think it'd be fun to do something that is more like, like, like 1865. Exactly. Something like that.

Yeah. But we have considered that once we get into a more modern era and we've got audio clips of the actual person giving the speech whoever that might be we're definitely hoping to be able to legally yeah that's gonna be the tricky thing as long as we can figure out how to do that with permission because yeah what why do i want to read say fdr speech right after pearl harbor when we can play the audio clip right that's that's way more powerful. That's cool. Right.

So again, no promises. Yes. But something we're looking forward to. Sure. So on to just two other, two, three other things, other emails we wanted to get to. Just wanted to say thank you to William out in Alabama. He wrote us to mention that listening to history that doesn't suck has kind of helped

him face down, I guess, would the best way to put this be, you know, the demons a little bit of, he has a family history with his ancestors' own slaves. And understandably, that is, that's kind of it's difficult to acknowledge yeah for a lot of years a lot of people tried to ignore those kinds of things yeah so glad to be you know hitting this stuff straight on and seeing that that can be of helpful um can be of helpful what on earth what? What can be helpful to William? And if there's anyone else in that camp, great. I hope that that's happening for a lot of people.

That's part of the power of really hitting history straight on, not trying to dance around it. We lastly just want to say thank you to those of you who have joined the Patreon community. It was great to be able to ask about, say, the accents. And we've asked about other questions as well. We're closing in on the 200 goal that we had set a few months back. And it's really, it's just fantastic getting to connect with a number of you and having that as a resource.

So, thank you. It's really awesome. Really, thank you. It's really awesome. Really, thank you. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from obscurity to become the most powerful and significant figure in modern history. Over 200 years after his death, people are still debating his legacy. He was a man of contradictions,

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wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So that does it for the emails and the questions and kind of the housekeeping, right? Let's go ahead and get into a little bit of discussion, make sure that people have kept track of where we're at as we're in the heat of the Civil War. We're two years in. First of all, I just want to go over what we're dubbing our cast of characters, sticking with our story theme. The main people who you probably have heard a lot about are definitely going to hear a lot more about. And we just want to make sure you're keeping track of who they are. And don't worry, the list is really short.

We're going to go through this though quickly. Okay, so of course, we will start with the gangly illinois rail splitter himself abraham lincoln president of the united states i hope that's pretty obvious 16th president you've probably heard of him time or two so a fun fact about him though that i want to remind listeners of this was mentioned in the episode where we first introduced abraham lincoln but as as well i'd assume you all know by this point we like to get closer to the characters by not falling into that more distant scene calling them by their last name yeah right we use first names and nicknames yeah and often we're using names that they went by you you know, because I mean, I was just thinking about this even the other day with, you know, in terms of episode one to say that Washington defended for necessity is very different from George got his ass handed to him.

It's very, you know, yeah. It's much more personal. Exactly. You connect a lot more with these people. I mean, how many people have emailed into us that they cried when some of these characters died. Right. When George dies, when Alexander Hamilton dies. Yes. So if you're wondering why on earth is Lincoln Lincoln, shouldn't he be Abe? Well, we want to remind you, he hated being called Abe. So his friends and family did not call him. Well, when

he was a little kid, he was called Abe, but he hated it and as he got older yeah that was he went by lincoln he went by his last name he was you know like that guy who's the captain of the football team and just keeps going by his last name that's sort of a only lincoln's way way way cooler than that yeah had to say that our apologies to all the varsity football players listening. Yeah. So that's why we call him Lincoln. And two of his right-hand men, his cabinet, who have the best nicknames are Edwin Stanton, the Secretary of War, and Gideon Wells, Secretary of the Navy. So in a little nod to Greco-Roman mythology, they are Mars and Neptune, the god of war, god of the sea. It's fun. And I haven't seen that about Lincoln. Well, Lincoln came up with those nicknames and nobody paid him a favor and gave him a Greco-Roman nickname back.

You know, you just have to wonder, was he just digging for that the whole time? It's like, come on, guys. Seriously. Call me Zeus already. I'm passing names out left and right no one's nicknaming me i mean honestly he probably had a lot more things to worry about he definitely was not why does no one call me a nickname well he's called he's called lots of nicknames yeah true not within that vein um i think it's fun, though, just seeing more of Lincoln's personality. Oh, yeah.

Right? Like that comes across. And that's where we always try to work in references to Mars and Neptune. We like to do that. Ciel, why don't you? Oh, yeah, sure. So the rest, I mean, obviously Lincoln has a big cabinet, but we don't care about all of them. The other two guys that we do care about, I mean, we'll maybe mention their names here and there,

but the other two big hitters are William Henry Seward and Sam and Chase. A quick note about William Henry Seward. He went by Henry as a child. We don't know what he went by as an adult. If he went by, if he went by Henry still, if he went by William or if he went by Seward. So we typically call him William Henry or William Henry Seward. We're working on it.

Yeah. You know, I apologize for any time we've been inconsistent in that. Just listen for Seward. Yeah. Or yeah, if you're wondering, why do they call him by all three names? Well, because again, we'd like to keep our first name thing going. We do. But we do want to make sure that you're clear on who this who this fellow is yeah and he's going to keep being important so we'll keep calling him william okay so then we've got uh sam and chase

who was very much a rival of lincoln's in the 1860 presidential election. And, you know. And kind of puts that rivalry away. Yeah, kind of. Kind of. Enough. Puts it away enough. Yeah.

So I wouldn't put him, you know, I don't see the two of them in a bromance. Definitely not. Yeah. But, you know, they work together. And it just felt right to remind you that Lincoln has a VP. He doesn't really matter. Yeah. But, you know, they work together. And it just felt right to remind you that Lincoln has a VP. He doesn't really matter. I mean, no, he does. He does.

He matters as a person, but he doesn't play a big role in decision making. So we don't mention him much. So, but for those of you who care, it's Hannibal Hamlin. So there you go. That I think might even, it's not the first time we mentioned him. We mentioned him in the 1860 election episode. Yeah. Like two times at least. Yeah, solid. That's a solid third mention.

Solid, exactly. Okay. All right. So that does kind of the presidential administration, moving into some union generals, and then we'll make our way to the Confederacy. Of course, we've got George B. McClellan. Little Mac.

Little Mac. Little Napoleon. Thinks a lot of himself young napoleon right oh yeah you're right young napoleon yeah the over planner the less less doing more planning right as one historian i said he was a perfectionist in a profession that didn't allow for perfectionism. Do you remember who said that? McPherson. There it is. Of course, it's McPherson. I know. McPherson is amazing.

If you're looking for, yeah, book recommendation right now, by the way, just anything by James McPherson when it comes to the Civil War. Yeah. Pretty much. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Oh, no, you're just fine. It's just, yeah, he's a perfectionist and it slows him down. And it really gets in the way of him doing a decent job as general. I've loved reading his letters and just seeing how convinced he is.

He is truly God's gift to the U.S. military. Yeah. He does think that. He really does. Yeah. We're not exaggerating. Yeah. And so he is also the first general in chief. We very recently heard about his firing. That was one of the openings to a recent episode. And he's replaced in that role by Henry

Halleck, aka Old Brains, which is our preferred moniker for the guy. Exactly. That's what his soldiers underneath him called him because he was really well educated he was another west point yeah guy yeah he's a brilliant guy um again a little slow careful cautious um but brilliant nonetheless yes and known for his his bookishness and interest in promoting those with more bookishness he did not care for people who lacked pedigree he did play favorites with people who had west point on their resume i don't know is that a little bit too loose of a generalization no okay feel feel good about that all right ulysses ulysses ulysses such a powerful name yeah ulysses s quote unquote grant as you heard in the episodes that wasn't his name let's not re-explain but yes ulysses s grant and again we like to call him

as he was called by his friends so ulysses we often just simplify to that he's also um s grant at times there's sam is thrown in there for this middle name that he didn't have at birth. Anyhow, yeah. He's going to keep playing a big role. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert history or anything. The future president, at any rate. And his best buddy, William Tecumseh sherman and that's a fun story

his name yeah his dad had a lot of respect for the way um tecumseh the shawnee warrior fought um in way back in the war of 1812 and so he was named for that warrior um and that is the name he went by even though his first name is william he wasn't actually given the name william it was tacked on at baptism because the he's like nine years old they're like yeah he needs a the the clergyman was like no not he needs a quote-unquote christian name so they they just pulled one out of a hat right and yeah he just kind of ditches it so sure it's it's technically there legally but and kump is really what he was known by his yeah his friends and family call him that all right so ambrose burnside the burns the. The Burns. The Sideburns.

Sideburns. They are epic Sideburns. Yeah. And so for those of you who haven't seen a picture of him

these amazing it's not just Sideburns it goes up he shaves his chin. Imagine you took 70s shag carpet you cut pieces

out of it and you just staple them on each side of your face. Oh and a mustache too to connect them. Yeah. So he's shaving his neck and chin, but all the rest of that is just this magical, ever

flowing, unceasing stream of facial hair. It's a pretty cool look. And it is, as we probably told you five times, and apparently that's just our favorite factoid to remind people of, it is where we get the term sideburns from. Right. It's too bad they can't save him in a few battles, give him magical powers. No. Yeah, they clearly did not.

They don't turn him into a military genius. No. Most unfortunate. If it did, the war would have been over a lot sooner. Yeah. Fredericksburg would have gone better. Okay. And Mary sooner. Yeah. Fredericksburg would have gone better. Okay. And Mary Lincoln.

Yeah. She's our last union side character that we're going to cover here in this episode. But we just feel like she plays a big role. And she's fascinating because with her Kentucky roots, which Lincoln has as well. But she has so much family. Here she is the first lady of the United States. And she's got a ton of family in Gray and Butternut. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, definitely. Her family split about 50-50, just like a lot of other Kentucky families. And it's really painful for her. So, and she keeps her efforts to be charitable quiet. And so she doesn't get a lot of credit. She gets pretty beat up in the press a lot for her supposed Confederate sympathies, which she, of course, does not have. But she does have family members with Confederate sympathies. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids

need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. All right, so enough on the union side. Jumping to the Confederacy. To the Confederacy. So we'll go in the same order. Let's start with the president. Jeff Davis.

Jefferson Davis. Sorry, Jefferson. i'm so used to calling him jeff because because he's jeff because he's jeff that is his nickname all his life that it's what again close friends and family knew him as so that's again the contrast between the presidents right we call lincoln lincoln because that's what his friends and family call him jeff jefferson davis is jeff because that's his friends and family right no mess um i still think his goatee is not as strong as ambrose's burnt sideburns definitely not no but um fun things uh about jeff he he has some he has thin skin he does he's very easily offended he's aware of that uh i can respect the i don't know there's

something to be said for people who can at least acknowledge you know yeah their faults yeah so he knows it he there's at least one time i remember him writing to his wife basically saying oh i i wish i were better on this i've got to to do better. But he never really does. He doesn't. He does try, but he has a quick temper and he's easily offended and it does affect his ability to lead. Yeah. So he probably wouldn't appreciate the voice in which I read him. But, you know, that's okay.

We bring him to life anyhow. Let's talk a little bit about, well, no, there really isn't much we need to talk about his cabinet, to be honest. Well, I mean, he's a micromanager, so he has a cabinet, but he doesn't utilize them. So they aren't powerful big characters. There's a lot of turnover as well. And we referenced some of them's grandson, geez, what was his first name? But Randolph, who does a little stint in there. Oh, excuse me.

No, we haven't talked about that. Sorry, everyone. I'm thinking of a script that I have written. You can look forward to that. That's coming. It's going to be a great story. That's right. Yeah, teaser.

So, you know, we do talk about some of his cabinet members, but yeah, he's such a, this is one of the struggles he faces throughout the war. It's one of the things that ends up hurting the Confederacy. He's just not able to really hand the reins off to someone else. Yeah. Yeah. He just, again, he's a micromanager. One of my personal favorites, Pierre-Gustave Touton Beauregard. Which is how he would have said it.

It is how he would have said it. Yeah, GT, as he's often abbreviated as for Gustave Touton, GT, Beauregard. We met him early on. He was the hero for the Confederacy at Fort Sumter. And we've also seen him not get along with Jeff. Yeah, so he ends up with kind of a backwoods assignment after he ticks off the president one too many times. Now, this had to be really frustrating for our favorite Creole because being so far out and with restrictions from the war, he can no longer get his hands on his favorite hair dyes. It's true. He does have to grow out his roots and admit that he's going gray in his late forties during the war. Hey,

Beauregard, I mean, the name fit. He was a bow man. All right? Was that too nerdy of a French joke? No. Okay, yeah. Handsome guy and concerned about his hair. So, you know, he'd be doing commercials for... Yeah, he'd be doing Claire all commercials in the 21st century. Exactly. All right. Robert E. Lee, probably the most visible yeah definitely uh general in the

confederacy right right we call him bobby lee and uh he's known by this not just by his friends uh that's actually what little mac george mcclellan calls robert e lee in letters too he calls him bobby lee yeah so this is, you know, kind of in the same spirit. If you want to throw back to the American revolution with us, remember James Madison, he had a nickname, little Jimmy, which, you know,

I'm sure he didn't necessarily always appreciate. I kind of wonder where, where Robert E. Lee came on. I'm sure when it's Bobby from his friends and family, it's affectionate and fine. Sure. And when it's from quote unquote enemy,

you're like, yeah, probably a little different though. Maybe he didn't care because he could just kick little max, but all day long. So he knew it. Prove it on court, buddy.

I love some of the things he wrote as little Mac was getting fired, you know, about like, well, I hope they don't bring in someone. What was the term you used that I don't have such a great understanding for?

Yes, we understand each other so well. Bobby Lee attacks with an inferior force. Young Napoleon runs. It was a perfect understanding as far as he's concerned. And doesn't pursue afterward. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a solid relationship. Okay. So he has some very capable generals that are serving with him. One of them is Thomas Jackson, who we know as Stonewall. Yeah. And he gets that nickname at the first Battle of Bull Run, very opening of the war, and he's Stonewall the rest of the war. So that's what we call him. And we are not entirely sure if that was intended as a compliment, like,

wow, he's like a Stonewall standing before fire, or if it was a comment on him being, and this would be uncharacteristic, by the way, but being lethargic that he wasn't moving right in that moment. I think total personal opinion here. I am under the impression that's probably

more a positive connotation, but that's just my take and there's zero way to prove this one way or another. Yeah, no, it's the guy who gives him that nickname dies an hour later. So we will, we'll never know. So it's stuck. But I guess I figure probably more positive in that it stuck and his men knew he was a badass. So even if it was given with any sort of negative derision. That quickly wore off. Right. And he is a devout Christian. My goodness.

Yes. He turns off some of his also Christianian soldiers don't like christian so you know what i mean yeah now i have the hymn in my head but uh you know he he has i mean many most of his men are are christian but he's so adamant in his uh you know, his fervency, I guess his zealot level. There are a few who are kind of like, well, Stonewall, chill out, buddy. We get it. Calm down there. Yeah.

Yeah. And he has some very weird, he's a weird dude. He is. He's brilliant. He's got some interesting habits. Yeah. Yeah. Like putting his hand up to try and

balance out the blood flow and his butt all sorts of yeah won't lean back because he doesn't want his organs to get out of alignment yeah he's got some ticks yeah he's a weird guy but it translates to brilliance on the battlefield i mean that there are there are literally things that he does that are still being studied in military schools now, today in the 21st century. So, you know, those weird ticks are put up with. And I always find it fascinating seeing those union men that come in contact with him who often make comments about how really unintimidating his appearance is he doesn't dress well you know he doesn't give off he's not someone who likes a george washington mounted on his white horse with his regal looking uniform george understood the power of you know projecting an image yeah as humble right. As humble as he was.

Stonewall's more of a Zachary Taylor, old rough and ready type. Yes, yes. But it doesn't matter because his success on the battlefield is such that the whisper of his name just terrifies the boys in blue. All right, have I nerded out on Stonewall sufficiently?

I can see the nods. He's like, Greg, shut up. We got up we got stonewall down okay look we'll be brief on the next one here's james longstreet artillery man um pulls off amazing things in battle and he's definitely bobby lee's favorite right hand man and yeah he's earned that position yeah uh bobby referred to him as his battle horse, I believe, was his little nickname. We should work that one in a little bit more. But, you know, whenever James happens to pop up.

I don't even know if, I think we've called him mostly James Longstreet because we haven't had him enough to kind of. This personal relationship with him. Yeah, because he's kind of on the periphery. He's usually there when we're talking about Bobby and he doesn't't quite but he's he's dependable he's capable yeah so yeah very very much so so he's worth knowing absolutely okay and finally mary chestnut yeah so she's not anyone with very much political clout she's married to someone who's the personal aid of jeff davis she keeps an amazingly detailed diary throughout the civil War. And so a lot of historians say, if you really want to know what's going on behind the battle lines, Mary Chestnut's diary is the

place to go. I'm going to throw in a caveat though, real quick. Mary Chestnut is wealthy. Mary Chestnut is well-connected. So if you want to know what's going on with wealthy, well-connected, educated people in the Confederacy behind battle lines, yes, read Mary Chestnut. That is not the majority of people's experience. And you'll hear about that in later episodes. What? That doesn't reflect the majority.

I know. It's crazy. Shocker. That some rich white lady isn't having the majority of somebody's experience. But excellent prose. Yes. And excellent prose. Yes. And very detailed. So you really get to know a lot of political characters because she is a little bit tied

in to Richmond elite. Yeah. So a great source, which is like all sources, right? You want to acknowledge what the shortcomings are. Did we, did we skip Jeb,

Jeb Stewart? Oh, we totally skipped Jeb. Oh, we can't skip Jeb. All right. I'm going to say the best beard in the Confederacy. I'm going to say the best hat in the Confederacy.

I was going to say. It's all about the hat. It is. It's all about the hat. So James Ewell Brown Stewart. And those four first names are where we get Jeb. And that's what he went by again. So he's Jeb.

Yes. I believe in a more recent episode, I made some sort of joke about him most likely to be mistaken for a Renaissance cosplay. Oh, if you imagine what the three musketeers looked like. Imagine the hat. Boom, you got it. Yeah, that's what this guy looked like.

It just, yeah, he's not he's not joking around. This is seriously how he dresses yeah and you know he just has the panache to pull it off too well and then the capabilities on the battlefield to pull it off too i mean because that's really what it is right like just like so he's basically the opposite of stonewall like in in terms of their dress you know but no one's going to give stonewall crap for looking like crap no one's going to give jeb crap for looking like crap. No one's going to give Jeb crap for, you know. Looking good?

Well, like, just being so, like, yes. So, the dude has a massive ostrich feather coming out of his hat for crying out loud, right? Like, these are not things you think to yourself, that's what I want on the battlefield. People are going to be shooting. I want the most ostentatious visible thing. Yeah, possible, near my head now sharpshooters i want them to know yeah i want them knowing when i'm coming um but they're just so capable yeah i remember we i think did we work this into an episode or not right there's so

many things we read and we discuss and sometimes they almost get in and then they don't and then i can't remember but his hat getting stolen yeah we worked that into an episode and it's it's great he's a little indiana jones-ish about that hat he is like you do not mess with it but he is a very capable cavalryman i think i just made him plural cavalry man there we are okay so that's kind of in our estimation the main cast of characters up to this point that does cover a lot of the cast of characters that we're going to have involved in the civil war um heather one of our patrons did want to know who our favorite general is for both for all three of us so we'll keep it brief yeah yeah i mean clearly mine is mcclellan i mean with hands down the best

general of the civil war sorry i couldn't help josh josh respects a planner i just respect a very intense planner you know well and you respect someone who's willing to write how great they are in every single letter they write to their wife oh of course and somebody who can just never perform you know i'm just really loving that no i mean i'm gonna give i probably feel a little bad for young and pulling but you know kind of botched things um grant i mean that's probably most people's answer but i just respect immense respect i just think as a general um i'm gonna forget the battle he and it might be coming i think it's coming up he sends 7 000 men that die in a matter of an hour and i and i just just moments like that where i cannot put myself in his shoes you know yeah those tough calls those tough tough calls right Because as we're going to talk about here in a minute,

we get into this total war, right? There's no longer this gentleman's war and just throwing men over and over and over and over and trying to win positions. And I just, yeah, immense respect for Grant. Right. I think I'm going to have to go with, I mean, I think Grant is probably for me,

but definitely very, very close second is Grant's BFF, Sherman. Yeah, Sherman. And the reason I respect Sherman is that he doesn't look around and think, this is where I want to be. He doesn't like war. He doesn't like that he has to go to total war. And one of my favorite quotes from him is, war is hell. And when he looks around at the aftermath of the battles at which he commands, he knows

it. And he does not glorify the war that has gotten him where he is. And later in his life, when he's offered a lot of political position because he is a war hero, he turns it down. And I respect that a lot. So I dig you, Liz, as well. Just to mix it up, let me instead say my favorite Confederate general, because you've both already done the Union. I'm just so fascinated by Stonewall as a person. I mean, it's part of where I kind of nerded out a little bit on some of his weird tics already. I just find him such a, I mean, the guy would have hated me, right? I'm so given to making jokes

and being irreverent and whatnot. I have no doubt he would have just thought I was the worst thing ever. But I find him so fascinating to study and his breakneck marches, he's just such a fascinating character for me. Yeah. Yeah, he is.

He's a really interesting guy. Yeah. So I hope that helps everyone just keep names straight. I know there are so many people in the Civil War. And honestly, I didn't think we'd spend as many episodes on it as we have. Yet every time I ever mention to a patron or in some of these exchanges on social media, just like, yeah, sorry that we've gone so deep

on the Civil War. I've yet to get anyone who said, yeah, I'm sorry too. It's always been, no, keep the detail. We like the story. So don't worry, plenty more to come. We've just gotten to where we're really shifting from the gentleman's war where there's this hope and thought that the union can kind of just come back together, maybe on the same terms. And the Emancipation Proclamation, which we covered in a recent episode, we're going to get into some draft riots and talking about how there are a number of Northerners who are not comfortable with the war being about slavery.

And not just being about keeping the union together, but including the idea that slavery is going to be put out. Right. And we'll also see in that episode that there are a number of Southerners who are tired of fighting a rich man's war and feel like the burden of the war has been put on the poor people's backs and they are fighting back. So we're getting to some interesting twists and honestly, we're getting to the really bad part. I was going to say we're getting to the really gruesome, nitty-gritty total war. We've gotten to taste it with some of those from

Shiloh to say Fredericksburg. Fredericksburg, yeah. But it's just going to get worse before it gets better, as the saying goes. Alright, so that's it for now. We're going to go ahead and wrap it up there. Thanks as always for listening and join me

in two weeks where I'd like to tell you keep going. And a special thanks to our members whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Merchant, Christopher Pullman, David DeFazio, David Rifkin, Denke, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moods, Jennifer Magnolia, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppock, Joe Dobis, John Frugal-Dougal, John Boovey, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Ridlavich, John Schaefer, John Sheff, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Justin M. Spriggs, Justin May, Kristen Pratt, Karen Bartholomew, Cassie Conecco, Kim R., Thank you.