History That Doesn't Suck - 70: Epilogue: The Civil War Comes to a Close

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

After nearly a full year of covering only four years of US history, we are done with the Civil War. It’s time for an epilogue! Greg and Cielle talk big picture and bring in some intriguing stories that just didn’t quite make the cut for regular episodes (including the Civil War origins of Coca-Cola, and the tale of Confederates who immigrate to Brazil, where slavery is still legal).  Ready to decompress and gear up for Reconstruction? Here we go. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone

you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader

context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue. Now, on with the show. Hello, my friends, and welcome to an epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor as always, Greg Jackson, and CL is with me. Hello, everyone. And we are beyond elated to finally epilogue the Civil War, aren't we?

We can't even tell you. We've been working on Civil War episodes for a year. Yeah. It's wild to think about, but it's true. It really is. First off, though, I think we need a moment of silence for Josh, since he's not with us. That's true. It's our first epilogue without Josh behind a mic. So, Josh, this moment of silence represents how much we respect you and care about you,

the duration of it. So, here we go. And that was great. And I'm really, I'm just trying to see if Josh actually still listens. If I don't get a text telling me that I'm a bastard from him within a week of release, then I know. Then I know to send him that text. Exactly. Yes. We miss and love you, Josh. All right. So per the usual, let's go ahead and do our little corrections, the things we'd like to note that we wish we just did a titch better.

And of course, always thank you to those of you who reached out. Drew these things to our attention. And then we're going to get into some good hashing here. Yeah, we've got some fun things to discuss, some serious things to discuss, things that didn't fit into any episode. So some cool extras and things like that. I mean, we're going to Brazil. We're drinking Coca-Cola. Yes, we're talking about repeating rifles. It's going to be exciting. It's exciting. Oh, yeah, it's good stuff. But OK, so to the corrections, I'm going to go ahead and call this one the most egregious, the first one here. That's true.

So, episode 65, we knew better, we wrote better, but sometimes, alas, our human failings. Episode 65, we refer to Lieutenant General Leonidas Polk as a Catholic bishop. We know better than that. He's a Episcopalian. Episcopalian. Sorry. And that one was so egregious that we even bothered our dear friends over at Airship and sent in a recording of that sentence to fix it. So, if you go back and listen to it, you will now hear Episcopalian, Bishop.

Not that I don't care about pronunciation things, but I can't fix all those. That's humanly impossible. But, you know that was that would need to be straightened out yeah it did yeah so uh thank you i actually don't remember who someone just made a comment in passing on one of our social media platforms yeah and saw it quickly went oh my gosh no please we said catholic and the heart sinks and stomach turns. Sure. As you know, see how my perfectionist ways does. Any such little thing.

Okay. Do you want the next one? Yeah, sure. So we got, was this one an email from Don? Via Twitter. Oh, yes, a tweet. We got a tweet from Don in Washington State, not DC. Yes.

That pointed out how little we know about physics. And it turns out that my high school physics course was just not enough to make me a physics expert. So we said- I caught a solid B of some sort in my 101 class in general far longer ago than I want to remember. Yeah. I think my high school physics teacher gave me a b out of pity more than right you know i mean there's a reason we went the history route and

yeah yeah uh yeah it was my lowest grade in undergrad i think so yeah but at any rate and i didn't take it in undergrad oh you didn't oh Oh, no. I want to say you made better life choices than me, but I'm sorry. I feel like Don's going to be going, what the hell, Greg? I mean, I took biology and chemistry. Give me a break. Just didn't take physics. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Anyhow, go ahead. So, Don, who calls himself a pedantic engineering professor. Which I love. Thank you, Don. Don, he's just being kind. He is. He is. Very self-effacing humor love it yes so he pointed out that uh we botched a physics joke we did sorry did we not

know which episode that was in we didn't uh it was when uh a train was being derailed oh well yeah but yeah we should know that that's okay okay. Thanks for the help, Don. Yes, thank you. And alas, you can go back and listen to that one, all the physicists out there. And they might know their history, but well, that's okay. All right. And I think really that is kind of it.

Yeah, those are our main fixes beyond, of course. We know we have mispronounced things a few times. We certainly try. And hey, if you want to reach out to us on social media and let us know how to pronounce your hometown so that we know for, you know, advanced episodes, we would say yes to that. Well, in a cool development that we have at this point as the audience, it's, you know, the you good people that are listening as that that number's grown, is basically just having resources. I mean, I can get on the Facebook group at this point.

And that just seems to be the best response. I've tried it on Twitter. I've tried it on Patreon and whatnot. And we get good responses on all the platforms. Yeah, but Facebook is our- Facebook's like instantaneous. Yeah, so we can be in the midst of recording even if something's eluded us and i'll post on there oh how how do i save this river boom out comes someone from georgia that's 10 minutes from my house this is how it's said

it's so helpful it's so awesome oh yes so thank you thank you to all of you who are doing that and well you know well while we're there i mean i guess it kind of falls even within the corrections you could say we already did a whole bonus episode on it. But I mean, thanks again to Lucy. Thanks to Jeremy who did the accents episode with me. thanks to a whole lot of Southerners who then wrote afterward and said, hey, we actually really dig what you do. So, you know, that was really kind of appreciated that there was some real outpouring of love. And so, thank you. Thanks for all that. And while we're kind of in thanks mode, there are a few others. Yeah. So, a big, big, big thanks to Mike Ercolini. Absolutely. In Boston. Mike Ercolini. Absolutely. In Boston.

Oh, boy. You lived in Boston, right, Greg? I did. So you have a little bit of a grasp on the Boston accent. I know how to pack my car, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But. I don't. Well, but I was actually more nervous about it because it's one thing to be like, yeah, I botched, you know, the Georgian accent.

I've never been to Georgia, right? Sure. When you've lived in Boston, though. There's a little, like, I have a few friends who definitely call me afterward and be like, you know, yeah. Get it together. So, anyway, Mike. Mike walked us through it. It was pretty awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Big help. That was the open where we had the peace negotiations going on with Jefferson Davis and James Gilmore. He's a Bostonian. And Mike literally was on the phone with me through it. I would, you know, he'd see that he had the script in front of him too. He'd read it to me. I'd mute him. I'd read it out. It was a real fun experience. I really appreciated that. So, and, you know, to what extent that will be duplicated on some other stuff, we'll see.

But this is all part of, just thank you, all the people who are listening and who are willing to volunteer their- Their time and talents. Yeah. Yeah. And so, it's really cool. And I did not have to get any emails from old friends in Boston. So, that's nice.

And then I also just want to say thanks to Christy out in Georgia who, amidst the COVID-ness going on, she made us masks. So cool. And they're freaking awesome. They're amazing. They're high quality. They're cool. Yeah. So thoughtful.

Yeah. Just thank you. That was really awesome. Very kind. Okay. So, corrections and thanks. Let's have some. Let's talk Civil War. Let, just thank you. That was really awesome. Very kind. Okay, so corrections and thanks. Let's have some... Let's talk Civil War.

Let's talk Civil War. We haven't done enough of that in the last year of our lives. Yeah. Okay. So let's start with causes of the Civil War. Yes. One last time. One last time.

Let's talk what started this whole thing. So as we were going through this, Greg and I are discussing, okay, where do we talk about the Civil War causes, right? And I was like, well... And to be efficient on this, because that could be like a two-hour... We're not doing that right now. That is not happening. But you know, if you decided as a listener, you wanted a refresher on causes of the Civil War, you wanted to go back to listen to some episodes, we recommend listening to episodes two through 45.

Yeah, that should do it. That should do it. Okay, so tongue-in-cheek aside, we were talking about when did we first get something that connects to the Civil War. And that, it's in episode two, where James Otis is writing a pamphlet, we're talking about colonial taxation. Right. And in that pamphlet, as some of you might recall, perhaps if you've listened to number two recently for whatever reason, if you haven't in a long time, by all means, go back. Give it a re-listen. mention that James has a part in this pamphlet where as he's talking about colonial rights and taxes and whatnot, he kind of has his own little aside. It's just a page or so, but he says, hey, by the way, black colonists are equal to white colonists. We are all British subjects. We all

have these rights. Or at least he's saying maybe that doesn't equal the actual political reality, but he's asserting- That's his argument. Yeah, that's how it should be. So while we're reassessing what civil rights, what political rights, human rights, whichever form of rights you want to go with, people have, he is making this argument in the 1760s let's get color out of the picture yeah and uh obviously he is um he's very much not in sync with what a lot of other people are thinking at that same time

sure yeah he's a he's an extreme view but the the view is out there. And that's, I guess, where we would go back to episode two and say, you can already see the wheels are turning. The discourse is in play. Right. Right. Yeah. People are already discussing it. So, really, you can start at episode two, but you really don't need to. Really, if you want to start talking causes of the Civil War, go post-Mexican American War. And that's when we'll start getting debates about the expansion of slavery into this new territory that we've gained from this war and the debates over, you know, is it okay

to curtail slavery's expansion? What does that mean for current slave states? Then you start getting debates where you have the Whig Party falling apart and the rise of the Republican Party and the platforms that they stand for. Obviously, there's our major causes, right? Expansion of slavery becomes a major issue, which then affects how people see, okay, if we can't expand it, are you guys saying we should shrink it? Does that mean we're going to lose slavery in the states that already have it? And then you do get some ideas from that of, okay, does a state have a right to secede if they don't like the majority viewpoint that is from the Northern and Western territories and states?

Well, that idea had not been, it just hadn't been tested. majority viewpoint yeah that is from the northern and western territories and states well that idea had not been it just it hadn't been tested no it hadn't been it hadn't been pressed sure and there is there is space for that intellectual argument before the civil war if we remember going all the way back and this is is again, kind of to our joking, go to episode two. I mean, go to the early episodes where we've got to remember that the colony saw themselves as they became states as independent sovereign states. It's why they use that word. It's, you know, the rest of the, I had a professor in my PhD program. He was, he was an Oxford type and, you know, that's where he graduated from. And of course, had to make sure we all knew that. Inferior student. No, he was actually a really nice guy. But Oxford

managed to make it into, I think, every other lecture at the very least. At any rate, there was one time the course was on Iraq and he used the term state and he kind of paused, goes, oh, now let me make sure you Americans understand how the word state actually is used. He kind of goes off on his little side tangent about that a state is an independent, sovereign nation. Sure. And so we use that term in the United States because that's what they were originally. Yeah, that's what they saw themselves as. Well, and you see those discussions even after the Constitution is ratified

when you have the debate over who's going to pay the debts of the Revolutionary War. And some people are arguing, hey, the federal government should come in and they should help and we should all collectively pay one another's debts. And some states are like, yeah, I'm not doing that. Right. Right, because they still see themselves as a state first. So by the time you get to the 1850s, that idea still exists. And now it's time to say, okay, can we leave?

And what was created was not a centralized government. I think that's also important to remember. Sure. And it's something I would even argue that some Americans lose sight of today. Because we live in a post-Civil War world. No one's alive who lived previous to the Civil War. And there is something of an inclination. I don't know.

I've been to some town hall meetings and such in my time where I've listened to my representative kindly, always trying to be kind with voters, explained that the issue that the citizen is bringing up has nothing to do with what he does in DC. That's actually an issue for your state representative. And I remember this one moment, it just really sticks with me. It was just lost on this person. Sure. And my rep ended up pointing out

that my state rep was also in the room saying, you need to talk to him. He handles that. That is a state issue. So I do federal. This is state. And so I do think, I mean, this is a well-meaning, engaged citizen, right? Right.

They're at a town hall meeting. Right. You know, if we have people that are that engaged who don't always grasp the delineation between federal and state, this is, you know, that's just my take. I really do think that we lose sight that American federalism was this design to share sovereignty. And ever since, I mean, it's a brilliant design, I think, but ever since its inception, and the Civil War kind of settled some issues. Yes.

But even still after the Civil War, America has always been fighting over what that balance is, how much sovereignty still remains at the state level. Right. And how much has been transferred to the federal level. And should we be shifting that to one side or the other? And have we overdone it one way or have we underdone it, right? And I mean, for me, to be super nerdy for a second, that was part of the fascinating and enjoyable thing as we were building up to the Civil War was seeing the nuanced different views in various American leaders, such as Andrew Jackson, who's a staunch unionist, but he still has a

pretty like... Yeah, yeah. He's not interested in a federal bank. No. Yeah. So you see these very, by our standards today, curious amalgamations of the two. So I've gone on too long already on this part. Yeah. You see the debates in Congress in the 1850s over what can the federal government do in a territory versus what the people in a territory can do. And obviously they get incredibly heated. And they're not sure.

I mean, in some ways it gets back to, if you think about George Washington's presidency, the thing I felt the most for George Washington on is the guy was flying by the seat of his pants. There's no precedent, right? And there's no precedent for these people. Exactly. And just as you saw, if you remember all the way back to, say, episode 16, Founding Fractures, right, where we really—that was an episode where we happened to really have some fights, right?

And hence the name between Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, right? That is the epitome of that friction still at play. Even if some big questions have been settled, still at play. And new questions arise all the time as there's new technological advancements. I mean, you didn't have to think about cars 200 years ago or, you know, there's so many other things, but. Sure, sure. Anyhow, sorry, I could get philosophical on this all day long.

Just shut me up, so. Yeah, Greg, stop talking. I'm sorry. That's okay. So that's, you know, those are our main causes. Yes, but so, I mean, slavery though, that. Slavery. I see, while these other things are circling around it,

slavery is the big crux. Well, slavery is the issue that everyone's talking about. Where does the federal government authority end and where does state authority begin over the issue of slavery? Yeah. No one in territories or Kansas, to be specific, is being shot over whether or not they have the right to elect a territorial governor or the federal government has the right to appoint one.

They're fighting over slavery. Well, and I don't remember the episode number off the top of my head, but we have these discussions so much, where I say, hey, obviously I already knew it on this level, but wow, writing this episode, it went so much deeper for me and I feel so much closer to it

and enriched the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Yes. Going through that material. Here you have two men going at it for the seat to be a senator representing the great state of Illinois. And debate after debate, hours and hours on end, really, it's one subject. It's slavery. Over and over again. really, it's one subject. It's slavery. Over and over again. Yes, it's slavery.

And I mean, you know, if you've never read through, obviously I quoted a lot as we went through it. It's at least worth a re-listen if you're thinking about causes of the Civil War or frankly, even pulling up the transcripts from those debates. I mean, it was really powerful for me going, oh, my gosh. Well, and what's so great about those debates is it's two really smart people from different sides of the issue talking about, okay, what are the political issues of slavery?

Yeah. And you get the two main sides of that debate. Well, and I like the point you just made. They're both intelligent, right? So you don't just get- You don't get somebody just spouting off their opinion. You don't get lazy. You get really well-thought arguments

that represent the arguments that were being made all across the country. And they're basing it on the US code. They're basing it on the constitution. I mean Code. They're basing it on the Constitution. I mean, these are- Legal precedent, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So, one of the reasons that I think some people get, well, was slavery really a cause of the war? What, you know, is we get this lost cause narrative that shows up after the war. And it's perpetuated by people like, not just, but by people like Jefferson Davis, who look at the Civil War, you know, in hindsight, and say, well, we never could have won, and it was never really about slavery. And, you know, free speech. They can write what they want. And their ideas really, I think they bring a lot of comfort to war veterans. I think so. And they really grab hold in the South.

And in fact, even all the way up until the late 20th century with the amazing historian Shelby Foote, even his research has a lost cause bent, if you will. Yeah, I mean- I think Shelby Foote's done great work. Oh, no, I think he's done great work. His three volumes are required reading if you want to consider yourself a Civil War scholar. But yes, I- Yeah, but when you talk like a more modern Civil War historian like a Gary Gallagher or a James McPherson, they've really cleaned the- They've got it.

Yeah, that out, so. And something that historians grapple with all the time is the disconnect that you'll find if you're reading, this could be the same person, right? So a primary source, a source written by someone who experienced the historical event, right? But you might be reading their journal

as the event's transpiring. And then you read the account they wrote in their memoirs 25 years later and it doesn't line up. And here's the important thing. And I'm not calling any historical figure a liar. That's not my intention. I think they genuinely, most of the time,

they genuinely mean well, but your memory's faded, you have the advantage of hindsight, and you genuinely will start to convince yourself that you had, yes, your perspective just shifted, right? Yeah, your perspective has changed. Whether you've convinced yourself of something that was or your perspective on what was has changed. Grant's memoirs show the same thing. Right. Right?

And that doesn't mean we dismiss. I'm not saying that a source, obviously, this is still the person who lived through it, right? Right. And sometimes that's all you have. It's not like everyone keeps a day-to-day journal. Sure. But yeah, but we see this same thing play out. So you'll get different versions of the same event recorded by the same person.

It doesn't mean that they are malicious or trying to misrepresent. Yeah, it doesn't mean they're selling. I mean, very occasionally they could be. But by and large, it means they're human. Right, right, yeah. So that's one of the reasons I think that slavery is a cause of the Civil War in the decades right after the Civil War gets downplayed. Yeah, and to some degree, I mean, I guess we kind of want to go too far down this rabbit hole because we're going to do reconstruction. Yes, we are.

So, you know, we'll just maybe call that like teaser. Tune in next time. Right. But yeah, as you go through, you can see, okay, so that's how this narrative took hold. And, you know, I think returning to where you started with that, Ciel, it's pretty comforting to the amputee who's trying to make sense of what in the world just happened. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Right. So. So, some of the other issues that are at play in the Civil War, right? So, we've gone from, you know, an issue that causes it and then is at play during it which is slavery but an issue that continues to play out during the civil war in the north and the south is racial equality which we explored a lot in our episode on black soldiers yeah so that you have you know white soldiers in the north i'm not gonna fight with those guys i think this is one thing that well there's so many things but if there are a few highlights that I would

like people to better recollect and understand about the Civil War, I think we're very quick to fall into a pattern of the kind of the, and this is not any sort of apology for the CSA, but the righteouseous North and the Villainous South. And in that narrative, we forget how much racism there was in the North. And that's kind of a nervous laugh there, by the way. I mean, some of the Northern Soldiers journals that we read, it- I mean, we couldn't use them in the scripts. They're so negative. Some of them.

They're so racist. Not in a hide, you know- No, I mean, so negative. Some of them. They're so racist. Not in a hide, you know. No, I mean, we obviously, we used them. Yeah. But they're so. We bleeped them. Yeah, we did. Yeah.

Because they're blatantly racist. They're pretty uncomfortable to read. And, you know, the other thing we forget is that northern states had slavery. And in some states, they had, you know, gradually abolished it. But by the time the Civil War starts- There's still a handful of enslaved black Americans in the North. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

They're really old. Right? Yeah. But, you know, we forget that when we try to oversimplify and say, oh, well, the North was the good guys. Right. And good guys couldn't possibly have racial tension when the New York draft riots and recruiting black soldiers clearly disproves that. This is, so I might be kind of jumping ahead in terms of our organization, but I feel like it fits. We're going to do this. Was it, oh dang, it was one of our patrons who asked the question. Mm-hmm. Oh, dang. It was one of our patrons who asked the question. Well, the question was, and if you see the name, remind me. But the question was basically why would poor Southern soldiers sign up to fight with slavery being such a, the major cause of the Civil War when they don't own slaves. And I think this here illustrates, you know, you have Northerners who are fighting.

They might not necessarily agree with what the war aims are as the North shifts. Initially, it is only about preserving the Union. Right, but as it adds a dual war aim of ending slavery. With the Emancipation Proclamation. You know, it's's we seem to have grasped this from vietnam on but i think we sometimes fail to apply this to earlier wars that soldiers don't soldier for the official reasons right you know it's it's not like you have an army that's 100 made up of people who go, yes, I agree with the current administration and the war aims.

I mean, it's bounties. I can't feed my family. So, you know, yeah. It's people who are wealthy enough to pay someone to sign up for them. Yep. Yeah. And we have that on both sides. And we have conscription on both sides.

So you have soldiers out there who genuinely don't want to be fighting. They don't believe in North or South. Right. In the cause. Right. They're fighting because they've been pressed into the war. But specifically to our patrons question, which was why would the Southerners fight if they didn't, you know, benefit from slavery? Oh, yeah, sure.

Yes. Right. You can see where I was connecting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just that there's a myriad of reasons, but yeah. Right. So, specifically to that, so I think you need to just back up just a little bit back to secession.

Mm-hmm. If you look at the people who attend the South Carolina Secession Convention in December of 1860, which is our first secession convention, they are entirely to a man, to a white man, property-owning, slave-owning, top 10% wealth men. They are not the everyday farmer or blacksmith who might own a blacksmith shop and maybe five acres on which he gardens to support his family. Right. They are not people who own 50-acre farms, very much subsistence living.

And that's shown when you have people who really resist the CSA, the Free State of Jones, which we covered. The bread riots. Again, the draft riots. We'll bring those up again, right? Yeah. Because they didn't vote to secede.

The draft riots rights not to take away from your excellent and accurate those are northern but that's in the north which again though just shows this idea right that the north i'm not trying to crap on the north here it's just that's the the the thing that usually needs to kind of be corrected right is you know so here have white, largely immigrant, poor. Poor. You know, the New York's poor who are seeing this potential shift in which they're fearful, as uncomfortable as this is to discuss, right? But they're fearful that basically emancipated Black Americans are going to be able to equate

them on the social ladder. Yeah. And they're terrified at losing what little power, what little political power or economic foothold they have in these little hovels they live in, in these, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing is happening in the South. Right. Right. This is where it know. Yeah. Yeah, and the same thing is happening in the South. Right, right.

This is where it connects. Yeah, the poor whites in the South fear racial equality. Yeah. They're not on board with it at all. And of course, these are all general, you know, generalizations, right? We're talking about large swaths. Sure, again, Free State of Jones

would not stand up to those arguments. He did not fear racial equality. Yeah. But mostly, right? Yeah. Mostly, most Americans, North and South, do. So, you see that play out in a lot of different ways on and off the battlefield. Right.

Well, that was some heavy stuff there. But all that's crucial to understanding how we got to the Civil War. And once that, you know, Chris Caldwell, he laid this out pretty well in the bonus episode we did. Once it got to that teetering point where it was clear that slavery as an economic system was never going

to have viable power in Congress and would be able to be eliminated by the other states as states are added to the union, as that expansion continues. That's where even though Abraham Lincoln's elected saying, I'm not going to touch slavery where it's at, right? Just don't wanna see it expand. But I understand it is a constitutionally protected institution to be executed at the state level if a state so wishes. Right, yeah.

These are his arguments in 1860. He's like, I do not have the constitutional authority to end slavery in a state. And I mean, as I understand the Constitution, he's right. That's not Lincoln sidestepping. I mean, he's... He doesn't. Yeah, that's...

If you remember all the way back to episode 15, where we talked about, you know, the devil's bargain, if you will. South Carolina, I believe, above and beyond any other but georgia right behind it those delegates were ready to walk if slavery uh if the constitution had any power to touch a state's ability to continue slavery right right so in 1860 those states are still feeling threatened and when lincoln is um elected they're like, yeah, you say that, but we don't believe you. And so they decide to secede. Because at this point, right,

the balance was in their favor. I think you see that reflected in who are becoming Supreme Court justices, are early presidents, vastly, by and large, elite Southerners. Yes. And it's at this point that things have shifted. The population has shifted.

In terms of how populous the North is, the addition of other states. So that, for lack of a better word, I'll use it again, that devil's bargain that pieced together the 13 original states, it's collapsed by 1860, despite the Missouri Compromise of 1820,

despite the Compromise of 1850, the Nebraska King in 1854. Despite the Band-Aids. Yes, all the Band-Aids, duct tape, bubble gum, and super glue that they've been using to somehow try and skirt slavery. It's just come crashing down.

Yeah. Yeah. And so what you have is you have states who finally decide to test the Constitution. Right. Can we secede? Can we secede? We are states after all, right? We entered this as independent sovereign states, to circle back to my Oxford professor. Right. And so what you end up with is you end up with, well, we'll just see to see you later. Thanks so much.

This has been fun. Yep. And we're out. And so you can also see this is where we get, it's not entirely wrong to talk about states' rights within the Civil War. What is wrong is to have that narrative and pretend that the state right that was being debated was the state's right to practice slavery.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's where they can get a little convoluted, but it's important to keep both. Yeah. Yeah. To keep in mind the full extent of the argument. Well, and I think it's important because you don't understand the close of the Civil War and the shift in the American, in American, what, the American perspective in terms of really coming to view ourselves as Americans first

instead of seeing ourselves as Virginians or Connecticuters. I just love that word. I know. You know, Georgians, New Yorkers, right? That shift of the state- Identity. Yeah, taking the backseat to being American.

Right. You know, that's a really good transition into this idea because we did have a lot of people ask us, how did people choose sides? After secession has happened, right? Where do their loyalties lie? What are the reasons for them choosing to go with their state and secede or stay with the Union? Yeah.

You know, and it's really interesting. You have Southerners a lot who stay with the Union. You have Northerners who join the Confederacy. You do. have northerners who join the confederacy you do it's it's very interesting to watch these loyalties and watch this really difficult decision honestly a lot of these people i i mean for me this is one of the most fascinating things about going through this past year was was seeing this because okay so we've laid out the official state uh arguments right for for why we're going to war. It basically boils down to slavery.

And so now exercising what is being argued in these soon-to-be Confederate states, that they have a state right to withdraw from the union as the sovereign states that they were when they entered it. And while the Confederate States of America, at the end of the day, it is about perpetuating the institution of slavery. So there's no dressing what the CSA- Yeah, there's very little difference between the U.S. Constitution and the C.S. Constitution. The biggest difference is that they explicitly say that slavery is protected. Right. Whereas the Constitution uses all kinds of.

Well, the word slavery is never used, although it's addressed a number of times. Yeah, yeah. But the word slavery is not used. The word slavery is used in the CS Constitution. So all that to say, you have people who then have to choose. You know, you've got the Winfield Scots, right, who've been in the United States Army-

Forever. Literally like their whole lives, right? I mean, I'm pretty sure he joined at birth, didn't he? Pretty much, pretty much. Yeah, and so- But he's Virginian, so- So for him, though, it's union. He chooses union. And that's where early on, there's that discussion as well with Robert E. Lee. Yes.

Right? And there's a real earnest hope and belief in the North, in the union, I guess for some smaller clarification, right, within the United States, the non-succeeding states, that Robert is going to stick with the U.S. Yeah. And there's some, you know, did it happen? Did it not happen? But there's a story out there that Winfield Scott says, you know, it extends a job offer to Bobby Lee. And Bobby Lee says to him, I can't take this.

I'm actually going to secede. I'm going to go with Virginia. Right. And Winfield Scott says, you're making the biggest mistake. You know, whether or not that actually happened, it's a little debatable. But the idea,

the idea is sound that there is debate. Will you stay or not? Should you stay or not? You know, so Bobby Lee leaves and obviously he joins the Confederacy. He stays with Virginia, stays with his home state.

But there's another Virginian, George Thomas, who stays with the Union, loses his family over it. He pays a hefty price. He does. For sticking with the Union. A hefty personal price. Yes, a hefty personal price. Yeah, to be clear.

Yeah, career-wise, he's fine. And this is, I think, something that, again, I think people lose sight of when we don't keep a historical perspective is it seems so clear and vivid in the 21st century to say, I mean, the CSA is basically looking to enslave people. Yeah. The personal, we all want to think

that we are that moral person who's always going to choose the right, you know? Yeah. And I'm not saying that anyone should have some sort of sympathy or whatever. I'm not here to tell you how to view it. But to recognize that someone like Robert E. Lee, who's the poster child, I guess, right? The clearest image here. He says, even though at the end of the day, it boils down to when he fights for the CSA,

he is going to be perpetuating slavery, right? Like that's what it will become. Yes. His personal reason is that he's not willing to raise the sword against what he sees as his- His family. Yeah. His home state. he's not willing to raise the sword against what he sees as his- His family. Yeah.

His home state. He's not willing to do it. It's a complicated decision. There's a lot that goes into it. And you can see that in most of the decisions. Yep. You can see it in Stonewall Jackson as well, right? I was genuinely floored at some of the things I read, his correspondence.

There was an instance, geez, I wish I could remember it verbatim. I mean, this is like a year ago. It was early on in the Civil War. He wrote something to the effect of kind of acknowledging the moral superiority of the Union. Yeah. Yeah. But he's not willing to fight. To fight against Virginia. Yeah. Yeah. But he's not willing to fight. To fight against Virginia.

Yeah. Yeah. So, then you see people like William Tecumseh Sherman, who actually at the start of the Civil War has just started a job in Louisiana as an instructor at a new military institute. Literally, he's been there for like four months when the war breaks out. What does he do? He's like, see you later, guys. Peace out. Going home. Yeah. Yeah, and he goes and he joins the Union Army and he goes and checks out his family and makes sure that they're all good to go. When he has equally complicated decisions on both sides

of what's he gonna choose and which side should he go with. I mean, that can't be comfortable to be living in the deep South, right? I mean, come on, Robert E. Lee's a stone's throw from DC. Sure. In the big scheme of things, right? Yes. Half of his home state is going to secede from the seceded state.

Right. So, and I get it though, at the same time, he has deep history as opposed to William Tecumseh Sherman, who has been there for a hot minute. Yeah. But nonetheless, I mean, you've moved to a place right like you're building your life here and suddenly you got to decide are you gonna bounce or are you gonna really saddle up for something you did not intend you know right that's an uncomfortable and difficult decision and these are the uncomfortable difficult decisions that Americans are making across the North and South. And undoubtedly, you know, you do have the large plantations with hundreds of human beings

enslaved, and those people, hands down, are wanting the CSA specifically for the reasons that we find in the documents in which secession happened. I mean, it's clear as day, right? I mean, there's no, if you read those documents, they say straight up. I want my human property protected. Thank you. Exactly. Slavery.

And then, you know, there's the many grades, though, of other personal reasons why people ultimately fight for one or the other. Right, right. Which sides they choose. We've talked a lot about, you know, people who choose the North versus the South, but there is this interesting, the Battle of Vicksburg, John Pemberton,

who should not be confused with the John Pemberton who invents Coca-Cola, just so we're all clear. Totally got to. Just gonna leave that teaser. But John Pemberton, he's born in the North. He's from the North. But he marries a Southerner and he is a Confederate commander. He gets a lot of flack for being the Confederate commander that loses Vicksburg as a Northerner.

That does not go well for him. Well, that's where you do have these really awkward relationships. At the same time, David Farragut. Yes. Southern as Southern gets. I mean, he's lived in several,

born in the South. Raised-ish in the South. On a ship, but yes, in the South. Raised in the South until he's like nine and points to Navy. And then he lives on the ocean.

Yeah. This prepubescent uh navy man yeah right navy boy um and no there's a lot of doubt he is southern he's married to a southerner his father was a southerner his adoptive father was a southerner so right at beginning, and that's gotta be another point of friction too. Can you imagine being a southerner who's saying, hey, yeah, I'm gonna stay loyal to the union. I am gonna forsake my friends and family and stick with the union.

And at the end of the day, they're then greeted with, well, but really, can we really trust you? Well, and you know, George Thomas faces some of that in the war department. He doesn't get as, he doesn't climb as high as you think he would, as fast as you would think he would, based on his performance on the field. The Rock of Chickamauga?

Come on. Yeah. Because he's Virginian. Yeah. And no, people are like, eh, can we really trust this guy with war secrets? Seems like maybe we shouldn't. He really has to prove himself. So.

Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting to see all of the different sides that people do i will say and i know this is a huge throwback going all the way back to episode 50 very beginning of the war really battle of uh new orleans for me and you know as we've discussed as i mentioned in the accents episode it was part of where i leaned into these different accents trying to help people see like look at who these people are right like so you had johnson k duncan a northerner right defending fort jackson which is one of the primary i mean main defense uh you know batteries of fortresses protecting the crescent city City. And here's David Farragut, who amidst his bouncing around as a young man, from Tennessee to Louisiana to Virginia,

he's lived here. I mean, for me, I sat there thinking like, what would it be like to lead a military force into my child hometown in Southern California? Yeah, right? What's that? And for him, I never caught any inclination of like, man, this is awkward.

This is, I have doubts about what I'm doing. He was 100% all the way. This man is union through and through. Right, right. Well, and you can kind of see where he's coming from a little bit. I mean, I'm gonna put words in his mouth. Right.

Maybe he's thinking, this has been the union since my childhood and I want it to stay union. Right. I'm not going to let these usurpers steal my home from the union. Right. Sure. Right. But yeah, it is- It's so complicated, right? It is. It is so complicated right and so complicated so i mean when i think about people that i really respect as i come through all of this and you know i and

try to take as human a view as i can of everyone but it's guys like david farragut above and beyond who i really you know george thomas yeah these guys who truly more than took it on the chin you know they sacrificed their personal lives saying i'm sticking with the united states right right it's this it's the decision like when i think about it i think i would love to think i would make that decision getting back to my earlier point right like we can't know who you want to think say and think and believe down your soul that you are right and. And you really hope you are. Right. You know?

And these. And they were. And they had, I would say, the unfortunate position of being able to be tested to that point. Sure. I mean, I don't, if we're really honest with ourselves, does anyone really aspire to be tested on that level? No. I think some people might go, oh, no, totally, because I know I'd pass it. I think that's a really hard thing.

Right. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. Okay. Have we talked enough about some of the big players and the sides they picked? Oh, I think so.

I think so too. I think so. I think we should do something more fun and talk about the things that people shot during the war. Because that's always a big hit. Let's be real. Okay. So I think I should just put this, like just get this out of the way. Because that's always a big hit. Let's be real. Okay, so I think I should just put this,

like just get this out of the way. Actually, CL, can I just say really quickly, why don't we go ahead and just take a quick break? Yes. Assuming we have an ad to run currently. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back and blow things up. Let's do it.

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Come find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're probably, I hope probably back because otherwise we're probably running out of deficit. Patreon.com forward slash history that doesn't suck. Okay, so changing, yeah, military tactics. Yeah, let's talk military tactics and tech. So I think it's important that people know I am not a military historian. What? I don't profess to be one. Ciel, you were so into, I can't even say that with a straight face.

No, you can't. It's true. I learned a lot about military organization and weaponry during this last year. Is it? A lot. Okay. I hope this doesn't embarrass you. Can I just share one thing?

Yeah. All the way back to the War of 1812. That's when you were starting to write some of the scripts, right? Right, right. I think that's when it was. I will never forget, though, when you asked me, what is Grape Shot? What is Grape Shot? I did not know.

I genuinely didn't. what is grapeshot what is grapeshot i i did not know i genuinely did look at how you know today though you do circles around self-professed uh amateur military historians sure you know sure you would school them yeah no i mean i definitely know the difference between a regiment and a battalion now definitely was that okay is that all right oh absolutely i didn't know what grapeshot was i didn't i'd read the term i'd heard it you know but i'm like sounded more delicious than anything but it was actually not what are we talking about here yeah so yeah so when it comes to writing up the transition from ball ammunition to bullet ammunition you know that's something that we got to talk about all the time and it's really

interesting and now i understand it right yes okay so let's talk about the shift from musket to freaking repeating rifle yeah right holy crap this it makes things so much deadlier see i'll take it away oh no i mean it doesn't make it makes the civil war so much deadlier because you go from musket super inaccurate which we talked about revolution which to be clear if anyone's forgotten it means it's not rifled which if you look down the barrel of a gun and please make sure it's not loaded and that the safety is on if you do something like that okay uh you'll see grooves little circles or if you've ever watched a james bond movie 007 that opening sequence you can see the gun that falls yeah you see those little swirly lines right that's what makes it go straight it puts that spin like a spiral like

a football being thrown on it. Right. So. Muskets don't have that. No, they don't. So, the majority of soldiers in the Civil War are firing rifles. And by the middle of the Civil War, which we talked about when we talked about the Battle of Chickamauga. Yeah.

They have repeater rifles, which fire seven bullets. Well, they have a repeater that has seven bullets in it. So, it's no longer, let me load down the muzzle one bullet at a time. Right, right. And actually, there are soldiers who describe when they're firing these guns just how destructive they are. These soldiers are blown away at the destruction that can be wreaked by these guns. Funny aside that didn't end up in the script is that the repeater rifles are, you know, they're not perfect. at the destruction that can be wreaked by these guns.

Funny aside that didn't end up in the script is that the repeater rifles are, you know, they're not perfect. It's new technology. It's gonna have some glitches, right? You know, today we would call it it's in beta. Exactly. They overheat. And on the battlefield, that's a problem.

So you have some stories of soldiers who figure out creative ways to cool off their guns. Indeed. By peeing on them. That's a problem. So you have some stories of soldiers who figure out creative ways to cool off their guns. Indeed. By peeing on them. That's right. Hey, you do what you gotta do. You do what you have to do, right? You've got a battle to win.

And General George Thomas told you to hold your ground. And let's be honest, when they do that, then pick up that gun again, it's not the dirtiest thing they've laid their hands on. No, it is not. dirtiest thing they've laid their hands on no it is not by a long shot no so okay very quick aside take us to uh brussels if you will are you familiar with the uh statue of um the the the small boy it's famous in brussels right he's he's peeing yeah the fountain. So, the lore, because of course, no one actually knows where this fountain came from. Like, the authentic history is lost. This thing's hundreds of years old. Right, right. And he's been copied more times than anybody knows. Precisely. But the lore is that during a siege, like 1100s or something like that,

a lit bomb is launched over the walls into Brussels. Everyone, you know, we're gonna die. This is it. And a quick thinking boy ran up and took care of business. Sure. On the bomb and everything was okay. I like that story.

I think we should just go ahead and just say it's true. Yeah, well, I mean, if we weren't proper historians, we would do that. We could. We would do that, but we'll have to just go ahead and say that's awesome lore that I super hope is true. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. That's awesome. Leaving Europe. Back to the American Civil War. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I just try and think, you know, for, I guess if you're a really young listener,

maybe this one won't resonate, but remember when smartphones came out? Yeah. That changed our lives. It is a different world for those of us who remember the analog days of the 90s and the 80s, right? To go from guns that you have to load every single shot to suddenly just being able to crank out seven. Yeah, yeah, it changes war. You have to load every single shot to suddenly just being able to crank out seven. Yeah.

Yeah. It changes war. So the thing that you see is you see not only does it change how many people you can kill, it changes the tactic, right? Because generals start to go, oh my gosh, I can't just leave my men on the field to be slaughtered. Yeah. We can't do that anymore.

And so you have a change in tactics that tries to catch up to, I won't say meets, tries to catch up to the change in technology. Yeah. So, I mean, because at the beginning of the war, I mean, there are still a handful, I don't know the percentage,

but you still got some muskets out there. Some, yeah. So, you know, think about this. If you were to go back to the revolution, muskets inaccurate, they're basically firing a ball that's like a knuckleball, if you know your baseball. Apparently, I'm just going to sport, you know, metaphor the crap out of guns. I'm probably living up to some stereotypes about a Western American right now.

Sure. But to go from that to we've got the mini-A ball. Thanks, French, for figuring out how to make guns more deadly. Yep. So now bullets are pointed. They enter, well, they're better at penetrating their target. Yeah, they're better at penetrating human flesh. And, you know, the whole rifle thing, the repeating.

This is really deadly. Before you could stand across from someone firing a musket, I mean, think about the duels we talked about, right? Why did so many people survive these duels? They were good shots. They were firing crappy guns. Exactly. So even if they were good at what they did, right? Yeah. I mean, think about John Calderwater all the way back to the revolution. We described him shooting in his duel.

Oh my gosh, I just blinked on the Irishman's name. Oh yeah, I know. But it's okay. But you know, he waits for the wind to pass before he shoots, right? And his aim is true. He shoots the guy in the mouth. But the fact that there was a breeze going,

he's like, nope. Nope. I can't fire this. I'm gonna miss, right? So those days are gone. going, he's like, nope. Nope. I can't fire this. I'm going to miss. Right. Right? So those days are gone. Yeah, that's over. And so any military commander worth their salt in the Civil War starts looking around and going, hey guys, I think we should come up with some better defenses.

And they do. And that's where we get to trenches. Yes. Right? So at the beginning of the war, we're still revolution style, like let's march out like crazy people. Battle of Manassas. Right.

We're going to march straight into each other and people are going to sit on the hills with picnic baskets and watch because we're going to pretend this is the Revolutionary War. Well, and I would say, you know, this plays out so many times in history. In my mind, this is a pattern of military history. It's now 1861. The revolution is so long ago. I mean, yeah, there was the War of 1812, but let's not make more of it than it was.

And there have been Indian Wars. But again, those are very small engagements. We're not talking about like, I'm not minimizing their impact, but I mean small in terms of number of people participating, people being aware of them. Sure. Right?

Just as the United States is engaged at present, we have troops deployed in places where there's active fire, but your average American citizen isn't getting a grasp of what life is like for that soldier, right? You go about your day, no one's thinking about Afghanistan.

Very few. Yeah, very few. By and large, right? So that's what I mean with like the War of 1812, Indian Wars. It has been a lifetime since the average American has had to actually face the ugliness of war and really been presented with. So that allows romanticization to set in. And hence we have, yeah, picnic, right? We're just going to watch men be manly. It's going to be awesome. Unfortunately, what we're really going to watch is we're going to watch men shooting each other with accurate weapons.

Yeah. And it's not going to be hundreds of men, maybe up to a few thousand. It's going to be thousands and thousands of men on the battlefield on both sides with really accurate, deadly weaponry and no protection from it. And that's where no one, I mean, you know, our dear friend Kumpf, well, I guess not dear in Georgia as we established after the Martian Sea, but he, you know, he was called crazy at the get-go in the war when he threw out estimates for the death toll that was going to happen.

Everyone thought he was insane. Literally. Yeah, literally, right? And by the end of the war, I suddenly feel very Parks and Rec. Literally, by the end of the war, he was wrong because he didn't estimate high enough. Right, right. Yeah, and I think he sees that the technology has changed. Yeah, he got it. Yeah. And this is what he means when he says war is hell.

Yes. It's... Yeah, he looks around the Battle of Shiloh, again, no it. Yeah. And this is what he means when he says war is hell. Yes. Yeah, he looks around the Battle of Shiloh. Again, no trenches. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. But by the time you get to the Battle of Petersburg, end of the war, it's nothing but trenches. Right. They're digging tunnels under the trenches.

Battle of the Crater, yeah. So, they've figured out, not that it's leaving masses alive. I mean, the death toll is still horrific, but they've figured out how to best use, how to best defend themselves from these new advances in technology. And I will just mention briefly before I forget, the Gatling gun's been invented. If you were wondering when that was going to show up

in the Civil War, we don't actually have any real documented instances of it truly being. So like you was going to show up in the civil war. We don't actually have any real documented instances of it truly being. So like, you're going to find some, some entries and, you know, somewhere online or something where someone's going to say,

yeah, yeah. The Gatling guns totally use this time. It totally isn't sustainable. It existed, but yeah, but I guess the, the interesting thing to point out the Gatling gun,

by the way, is the earliest form of machine gun. What we are seeing is the Civil War, of course, prompts other innovations in more deadly technology. So by the time we get to World War I, that machine gun tech is going to be pretty honed in. Yes. So as we leave the Civil War, we've really set the footprint,

I mean, even to the ambulance corps. So many of the ways that in getting to the trenches, you can see how the technology and the shift

in battlefield philosophy that's come by the end of the Civil War is being used by European armies. If you go and think about some of the wars that they're fighting before World War I, and then when we get to that massive European suicide fest, you can basically see an echo of late Civil War on the field. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good point

that you bring up that the other thing that has to change with this new technology is medical care. Yeah. You have to figure out a way if you're gonna have that many people get that injured on a battlefield, how do you get them off the battlefield?

And what do you do with them once they're off the battlefield? And how many people do you need to care for them and where? So you get the rise of ambulance courts and you get the rise of nursing as a really respected profession because these these nurses have a lot of work to do and you get the you get more advances in uh technology you know in surgeries for how to do an amputation that actually works well and prosthetics yeah nothing creates a great need for good prosthetics like the Civil War.

Yeah, like thousands and thousands of people without licks and arms. Right, right. Yeah, so the advance in medical technology is another thing to really address. Yeah. Man, the conversation's been good. I hope no one's bored you with it yet.

One last quick break. Yeah, then we're gonna wrap this bad boy that means our bills continue to get paid so so let's move on to some issues though that we want to kind of so let's talk which issues get resolved by the war yeah and i think i would argue that there is one, and that would be secession. That's exactly what I was going to say. It's the one that's truly settled. Right. The question is now settled. It is not a viable option to leave the union once you have joined it.

Yes. And everything else we've discussed does not get resolved. Now, I think there are some issues that get pushed forward, and I would say women's rights is one. Yep. You know, careers in nursing, not so much doctoring, a little bit doctoring, but nursing get moved forward. Yeah, I mean, other than Mary Edward.

Right, right. I mean, you know, you see these pioneers, right? You see the beginnings of it. That's often how so many of these things go, right? There's this one isolated figure who manages to crack through it's it doesn't speak to the general experience of that entire you know in this case women in america um yeah and and obviously you know 1865 all the way to 1920 so um yeah it's going to be a while, but I do think that the Civil War pushes forward. We're talking about the vote there. We're not talking about, you know,

we could go on a myriad of other issues at any rate. Yeah, to the vote. But I do think the Civil War pushes women's rights forward. Absolutely. White women's rights forward. So, yeah, there's some issues that do get moved forward. I would say that some racism gets lowered by the Civil War as white soldiers fight with black soldiers in the Union Army. I would say that there are some people who have their minds changed. It's progress.

It's progress. But yeah, it's a step forward. Sure. But even as we end it, we get the 13th, 14th, 15th amendments. We're going to cover all this again. I always get a little, I don't know, these epilogues here. Sometimes you kind of got to address things we haven't gotten to, but at the same time, you don't want to put the cart before the horse.

So we're going to get to this in detail, but as I'm sure some of you have a vague grasp, if you feel like you have a pretty decent handle on American history already, for others, you're going to see that even as we get these amendments that end constitutional protection of slavery, that stipulate that color is no longer to be considered in voting rights and things like that, that the Reconstruction era, as it's referred to, which typically historians go with that ending at the end of Grant's presidency. Yeah, 1876. Yeah, 1876. Because apparently I said Grant's presidency, like everyone's like, oh yeah, naturally. We all know that one. Sorry, I'm stupid on my part. But that we're going to get these Jim Crow laws and basically there's going to be ways to sidestep, we'll get to Plessy v. Ferguson and you'll see how these things get skirted. And this is something that I actually think it's worthwhile to think about on a global perspective. If you think about a lot of the colonial empires that the Europeans have, French, British, etc. Obviously, well, you know my background, so I just happen to know the French Empire than the British Empire.

Both really well, so those are my go-tos. But even as they're having debates about trying to hold on to different parts of their empire at various points, especially in French Algeria, they have these conversations about the rights of the indigenous peoples in those countries and that and they often will start talking about equal but not really and so they come up with a class a class system of citizenship right and so i mean my go-to example is french alger, where the Arab and small Berber population, but primarily Arab, by the time it gets to 1960, there's about 7 million total populations.

About a million European descent French living there, about 6-7 million Arabs, and yet the 1 million French have the political power. They have the ability to vote. And there is a vote for the Arabs, but it's in a small college that can't have ever power. So you just see the way that there's been, they've been given citizenship, but not real. Not really, but not a proportional share of power. I hope that was interesting.

Was that way too far off the ranch there? No, I think it's really important to note that this isn't the only place it's happening. It's global. Yeah, you can see- The United States is part of that pattern. This struggle in, I love thinking about, I mean, we love what these nations,

whether we're talking about the French, liberté, égalité, fraternité, right? The aspirations of all men are created equal, right? These are such great aspirations. And then the mental pain, the birthing pains of actually getting to that place. Right, of actually putting that into action. Yeah, and seeing how this takes centuries

going from the Enlightenment era in which these ideas really start, you know, you get these guys like Voltaire who are saying these very crazy ideas, like maybe people should be able to pick their own religion. Like, this is earth shattering. Like, what? What do you mean? No, no, the king picks, otherwise you die. Yeah, right. No, the monks show up and give the natives a religion. Thank you. Right.

And so going from that to, you know, slowly grasping like, no, no, no, no, no. Race, sex, you know, we're all human beings and we all should have civil rights, human rights and so forth. And just my background, my specific train, I guess every time I think about the American experience, I see it in this global, you know. Yeah, it's not unique. Yes, it's playing out around the world. Right, right, yeah.

It is interesting to think about the connections that can be made there. Okay, that wasn't too boring. No, no, I love making connections. So no, I don't think it was boring. So yeah, so there's still a lot left on the table, basically at the end of the Civil War. We've solved one problem.

Right, which I mean, if anyone's familiar with American history, civil rights, 1960s for crying out loud, you know, pressing right into the present. Yes. I mean, there are gonna be questions and things to consider for a long, long time. So it's hardly like we,

when you read those amendments on paper, you look at it and go, this should have settled it. It's in the constitution. It's clear. And yet. And yet. Not yet.

So we'll, yeah, we'll cover all of that. We will. We'll get to it. It'll be exciting. Okay. So should we move on to some of the crazier?

Yes, before I put too much of that cart in front of the horse just stop me cl sure greg shut up so there is some stuff that's going to happen after the war that we know we're not going to cover because it's just too crazy well it's not like we're trying to do a survey right right these are what we consider like the bare bones that we'd hope any and every american should be exposed to. Sure. So there's some rabbit holes we just can't go down.

Even though they're awesome. No matter how interesting. So I don't know if you guys remember from episode 31, the California Trail and the Donner Party. I'll buy it. 31. Sure. Early 30s at least.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure because I'm pretty sure Oregon Trail was 30. I'm pretty sure California Trail and Donner Party is 31. That feels right. But anyway, there's this dude that we mentioned this one time in that episode. Lanceford Hastings. Lanceford Hastings.

He's the guy who proposed to the Donner Party that they cut through Nevada, go over the Sierras to get to California, you know, faster. Said he'd totally lead them and then totally didn't. Yeah, totally ditched them, left them to their own devices. This man has left his mark on history. Yes, he has. And incredibly, for all the damage this guy's left in his wake, has managed to not-

Not be remembered. Right. Oh, and let's also remember, he's the guy who wrote The Immigrant's Guide to Oregon and California in 1845. Yeah. So, you know, things have dried up. Life's gotten a little boring for Lansford during the Civil War. Yep.

So he decides to spice it up again. Yes, he does. Now, we don't have records of this, so we're pretty sure it happened, but it's gossip, basically. Like Robert E. Lee getting that ominous warning from Winfield Scott. Old fuss and feathers. Right. So, Lansford supposedly meets with President Jefferson Davis and says, hey, I could put together a regiment, a CSA regiment from California and Arizona.

He's currently living in Arizona. And Jefferson's like, that'd be cool. Here's some money. Yeah. Did that happen? We don't be cool. Here's some money. Yeah. Did that happen? We don't know. But the regiment never comes to fruition. So after the war, there are Confederates who are like, yeah, I'm keeping my slaves.

And they decide they're going to head for Brazil where slavery is still legal. Because you're running out of places in the world. Yes, you are. But in Brazil, slavery is still legal. Brazil is, what was the figure i think is like 40 or so i might be off on that figure we're going off the top of the head you know we're epiloguing here right i haven't checked my five sources as i usually like to before i say anything but i believe it's about 40 of all slaves uh all africans who are ripped away from their

homes and transported to the americas and the slave trade it's like 40 went to brazil yeah yeah that sounds about right to me okay you can feeling good we're in the zone yeah yeah i mean not feeling good this is awful stuff to discuss but you know what i mean like right yeah i i would agree with that number so uh yeah i mean it when you think about slavery across the Americas, yeah, Brazil is heavily invested in the institution of slavery as well. And it continues to exist there even longer than it did in the United States. Right, right. So, a few Southerners are like, hey, let's head to Brazil.

And Lanceford Hastings is like, you know what I should do? I should write a book. That's right. So, he writes The Immigrant's Guide to Brazil. He's been there one time. He's an expert. That's all it takes for good old Lanceford Hastings. 1867, that New York Times bestseller. I'm kidding. I don't know if it was a New York Times book. I don't know if they did it back then. But that's when he writes that guide. And you said few, and few is right in the larger vision of things,

but it's like 10 or 20,000 Southerners who, I mean, and just think about that, right? That's a city. so stuck on a life that includes having enslaved people that you freaking moved to brazil like yeah you moved to another country yeah like and and when i say like you moved to brazil it's not like there's anything wrong with brazil this is the 19th century. Moving countries, like they didn't just hop on a plane, you know, in Atlanta and then, you know,

complain that economy was really short on seating and, you know, they didn't have ginger ale and that was a really frustrating flight. Like, yeah, this is a one-way ticket. It's dangerous. Yeah, it's so dangerous lanceford hasting dies uh in on a caribbean island yeah caribbean because the ships wouldn't go directly right they would make stop of course obviously there is no direct flight right um so he dies of yellow

fever well probably probably yeah again we get into all these murky corners, but I mean, that is, it's astounding. And to this day, I mean, there are communities in Brazil that are aware that that's- They're descended from those Confederados. Yep. My Portuguese is amazing, I know. You're welcome, listeners. Yeah, that is the term. So, feel free to google it there's plenty of you know articles

and you can read up on on the confederados which at one point we envisioned doing an episode on them but we've just decided it's just too it's just too much of a side yeah okay so the one last other side that we kind of hinted at i mean we've got to get to now and that's the invention of coca-cola one of my favorite sodas. Yeah. Right? Right up there with Dr. Pepper for me. Yeah. So I mentioned this guy, John Pemberton, who was the commander at Vicksburg, who lost Vicksburg.

That's not the John Pemberton who invents Coke. Yes. But there is a John Pemberton. He is- Another Confederate. Yeah. And he is a Confederate lieutenant, something. He's no general.

He's no Vicksburg losing general. Right. But he ends up, what is his story? He gets injured in the war. He's injured at the end of it in 1865. And then he gets stuck on, was it morphine? I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure he's a morphine addict.

Yeah, he's trying to find something to get himself off of morphine and cocaine. Seems like a real viable option. I don't know all the specifics, and we're not trying to necessarily do that as a full-on, again, episode. Right. But he comes up with the basic formula that is going to become Coca-Cola

as he's trying to nurse himself off of his morphine addiction, which is the result of an injury from the Civil War. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, if like me, you enjoy a Coke from time to time. Or every day, you know. Whatever that might be.

Yeah, that is another indirect result of the Civil War. Let's call it a technological advancement from the Civil War. It's still around. It still is. We all still enjoy our caffeinated sodas at 10 in the morning. At least it's, this is Utah, Seattle. Yes, here it's getting hit at 10 a.m. But yeah, I mean, it's just fascinating to see

the things that exist in the present, you know, and how they get here. Right, yeah. And yeah, this one has the direct line back to the Civil War. It's nuts, isn't it? Okay, I think we've pretty much done the rounds, yeah? I think we have.

Let's go ahead and wrap this up. Yeah, for all the, for Mike. Mike's still listening out in Boston. So the last things I think we want to say is a lot of people have just asked, where are we going from here? Because we've been in the Civil War for so long, right? Good question. We don't know. No, I'm just kidding.

We do have a plan. We do. And again, you know that the large view, we are marching through U.S. history. So, you know that that's generally what's happening. But basically, as we get out of 1865, I mean, obviously, we're going to see Lincoln's assassination. But to get to a larger point, we've kind of got three things that we're hitting. Yeah. We're going to hit Reconstruction.

Of course. Do a few episodes on that. We're going to talk about Indian Wars that have been going on during the civil war and that are going to continue after the civil war and you know we've touched on indigenous lives um from the you know trail of tears we talked about the first uh treaty with under george washington and uh some of the comments he had to say on that and of course even going back to episode one i mean we talked about uh the iroquois and right and we've seen ohio we've seen you know battles picked in the french and indian war in the war of 1812 yeah but i we are now hitting 18 basically post-civil war into the next few decades these are prime years if you will so even though indian wars have been

going on and we couldn't hit all of them without it basically becoming an Indian war podcast, right? Just like all the other things that we wish we could do forever, but we can't. But we're entering that era. So it's definitely time to do a solid, we'll kind of see how it plays out, but- At least a few episodes.

Yeah, a few episodes where we really dive deep on what's going on with indigenous Americans and the experience that's happening there. These civil war heroes who are now being sent west to- To deal with the Dakota and the Sioux and the, yeah. So we're gonna do that. And Transcontinental Railroad. We are.

We're going to connect east and west at Promontory Point. It's going to be exciting. Here in Utah, we have to have a special little excitement about. You know, every state has their thing. That's right. It's exciting. It's our thing. It is.

Yeah. Yeah. This is where the Transcontinental Railroad connected, which you will learn about in a future episode. And of course, I guess maybe with the Transcontinental, we're going to get some good Wild West action in there. Definitely. That's definitely happened. Might even mention the Pony Express once or twice.

Just maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Again, as Westerners, we have to be a little excited about that. Yeah. Everyone in Missouri is going, what are you guys talking about? I live in a town where it's not ironic or old-fashioned to wear cowboy boots. Yeah.

You know, like, that's Utah. Yeah. That's, so, I think that kind of does it, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, that's where we're headed. So, hey, just thank you, everyone. This is, it's crazy honestly that's how i feel sometimes as we keep making this podcast and all of you who are listening and

thank you for your messages i i apologize we if any of them ever fall through the cracks we would really try to i don't think i really try to get back to all of them. But yeah. There's a part of me that just thinks, I know there's gotta be the post here or there or something that eludes us. But thank you. I mean, it is humbling. It's incredible.

Yeah, so thanks for listening. And learning along with us. I've learned so much as we've done the Civil War. So it's been interesting. I knew you would, Steele. I was really glad we could. It was really important that I learned the difference between a musket and a rifle,

and I did. That's right. That's gonna save you on Jeopardy someday. Someday. All right. Well, all that said, oh, and next time I will just tell you, don't flip out.

It'll be exciting. We're not gonna go right into Lincoln's assassination, which we hinted at in the last episode.'re actually going to give you a little retro experience the uh theme song that's been that we revamped with airship was recorded by that violin and cello in there that was recorded by some talented musicians that tour when covet isn't going on with the Hamilton musical. And so kind of a little nod to them, a little thank you to them. Airship is going to remaster the Hamilton-Burr duel episode. So you're going to get to, you know, we love and enjoy Josh's sound.

And now we're going to experience it with Airship and let the Hamilton musicians be present in the Hamilton episode. So we're going to throw that at you. And after that, we're grab your tissues because we're heading to a theater with Lincoln. It's going to be a great story. It is. Somber, sad, both of them.

But join me in two weeks where I'd like to tell you a story HTDS is supported by premium membership fans. You can join by clicking the link in the episode description. My gratitude to Kind Souls providing additional funding to help us keep going and a special thanks to our members whose monthly gift puts them at producer status

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