History That Doesn't Suck - 81: Epilogue to Volume 6: Reconstruction and The Indian Wars

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

“The older I get the more I’m convinced that it’s the purpose of politicians and journalists to say the world is very simple, whereas it’s the purpose of historians to say, ‘No! It’s very complicated.” — David Cannadine (British historian at Princeton) It’s epilogue time. Join Greg and Cielle as they talk in broad strokes about one of the darkest periods of American history: Reconstruction and the (post-Civil War) Indian Wars. In the process, we’ll revisit a few fascinating figures who seem to reject fitting into simple boxes, like Confederate-turned-Radical-Republican James “Old Pete” Longstreet and Union-war-hero-turned-Indian fighter, Phil Sheridan. Finally, we’ll say goodbye to another HTDS friend. First, it was Josh. Now, it’s Cielle. Thanks a lot, 2020. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What did it take to survive an ancient siege? Why was the cult of Dionysus behind so many slave revolts in ancient Rome? What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen and Jenny from Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy, perspective. Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you

might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era

explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I am your professor, Greg Jackson, and joined by the one and only C.L. Salazar. Hey, everyone. So, it's time, finally. It's time to wrap up Reconstruction and the Indian Wars. Yes. Yes, it is. That was a dense few episodes. It was dense. And, you know, we tried to give the good, broad overview and tell the stories

that needed telling and get the facts out there that needed to get out there. But it was a lot to fit into seven episodes. It was pretty heavy stuff. Yes. And hey, we'll get to all that. We will also get to CL, you're departing. That's right. But we'll save that conversation for the very end. We'll save that for the very end because 2020 is the year of everything. Ending. So Josh leaves, you're gone. It's all good. Okay, but we'll get to that.

First off, the usual. Let's do corrections. Yeah, the stuff we got wrong. Yes. And then we'll get into digesting Reconstruction and the Indian Wars. Let's do it. All right. So we've got two little pronunciations

to bring up. We're actually harkening all the way back to the Civil War here. Yeah. All the way back. I mean, it really wasn't that long ago,

I suppose. I mean, on the podcast, it was a pretty long time ago in a literal sense. Sure. So, in 51,

we talked about, now I'm going to mispronounce it. We talked about Aquia Creek. I hope I said it right this time. Nope. It's Aquia. There it is. I probably just said it the same way I said on episode 51. Yeah. But we were corrected by Christine from Virginia. So thank you, Christine. Yes. Yes. Much, much appreciated. We do like to pronounce things the way that the locals pronounce it. And we go to great lengths for that. But, you know, sometimes we just can't. Yeah, sometimes we fail.

That's how it is. Whatever way we said it, it's actually a quiet. Yes, it's the way CL says it. Don't listen to the way I say it. It's the way CL says it. So similarly, still in Virginia, I believe I said more of a lure-ray, kind of a deeper U-R. And Christine informed us that that is more of a ooh sound, a lure-ray. Right. So it's the lure-ray valley. Again, I'm sure CL said it better than me. We'll roll with that.

Well, I mean, I haven't been to either place, so maybe I've said them wrong. But thanks for the help, Christine. We appreciate it. Absolutely. And this is, I'm going to call it a self-imposed-ish semi-correction. Sure. I mean, we didn't get it from a listener. You're the one who came up with it.

So, yeah. Yeah. There is some doubt in the episode on the Battle of the Little Bighorn slash Greasy Grass. There is some doubt as to whether or not Crazy Horse actually said it is a good day to die. Right. So I found that quote in a legitimate book. Yes. But then, Craig, when you went to find some pronunciation help, you found... Yes. So I was poking around on the eminent academic source that is YouTube.

Yes. I hope you're picking up sarcasm there. That's usually not a... I don't go there for academic stuff. It's a great place culturally. So I will go there if I can't find a local who can help me with pronunciation. And I mean, I got a lot of help actually on that episode. So Keisha, we're going to get to you some more later, but thank you again for sending me copious files with correct pronunciation. But before she was able to get me the correct way to say Hokka Hei, and my intonation is never going to be right, but it is a Hei. I was saying that wrong initially. The Lakota man who uploaded the video that I watched, he mentioned that hokkehei is sometimes mistranslated as it is a good day to die. So when I hear that, even though it was a very eminent historian who had written that, or rather, it's not like he's alone, but this eminent historian who... Had quoted Crazy Horse as saying it's a good day to die,

it's quite possible that that historian was using a mistranslation. Yeah, that's what I'm wondering, because Hokage is used multiple, well, he definitely said that at the battle. There's no question that Crazy Horse said that, but it leads me to conclude there's a good chance that- He didn't mean it's a good day to die yes and is it possible that he still said that on top of it sure but it's dubious enough in my mind now that i would rather bring that to the table yeah absolutely um and from there we go to not a correction not a correction yeah just something really cool and fun that we learned from a listener, Jesse. Yes, Jesse out in Texas.

And you go ahead. I've already been yakking too much. Oh, yeah. So Jesse let us know that he used to work as a funeral assistant. And he knows and shared with us, we did not know, that embalming in the United States became popular during the Civil War. It's a technology that had been around for a couple of popular during the Civil War. It's a technology that had been around for a couple of decades before the Civil War, but it became popular in the U.S. because they needed a way to get bodies home to their families without rotting. Which sounds, anyway.

Pretty morbid, but you know. So actually, we did a little more digging on this. Thank you, Jesse, for bringing it to our attention and found a Smithsonian Magazine article that talks about how Lincoln chose to be embalmed and he was the first president to be embalmed. I do think Jesse mentioned that in his email. Oh, yes, he did. Jesse, yes. Jesse mentioned that.

Confirmed by Smithsonian. Yeah. Not that we don't trust you, Jesse, but we don't trust anyone. This is how we research. Anytime someone tells us something, we then verify it in like four Smithsonian. Yeah. Not that we don't trust you, Jesse, but we don't trust anyone. This is how we research. Anytime someone tells us something, we then verify it in like four sources. And then I mispronounce it. Yeah. Yeah.

That's pretty much how it goes. That basically sums it up. Yeah. So the Smithsonian Magazine article did tell us this, though. It did tell us that the Lincolns actually had Willie, their son, involved in 1862 so that they could get his body home to Illinois from Washington, D.C. So, yeah. It just makes so much sense. I mean, you're talking about a world of trains. That is the fastest mode of transportation. You're still days, weeks, potentially. Days. Well, and then you're talking lack of refrigeration. So, you know, maybe if it's

cold, the body shows up in better shape. But if it's hot if it's hot summer no well and you did have so now i'm pulling up memories of being able to visit lincoln's grave in uh in illinois um so the cemetery in which he's interred actually has like the the one of the vaults that his body moves around a number of times. In fact, we detailed that as I recall. But yeah, one of them is kind of in the ground, like there's a big hill and they've dug into that hill intentionally to essentially make something of a colder space. It's definitely not a refrigerator level, but it's something. Yeah, to protect it from huge swings in temperature. Yeah.

So anyway, we learned that that is how embalming came to be the accepted American tradition that it came to be. It started in the Civil War. So thanks, Jesse. Yes. So, you know, you're factoid on maybe understanding American burial customs just a titch better. Crazy the things that can be rooted in there. Right. Right.

I mean, not that they don't involve in other places besides the United States. Yes, they do. Of course. But, yeah. Yeah. How it got started in the U.S. It's interesting stuff. All right.

Well, correction, fun notes into, look, let's just say not as fun stuff, huh? Let's just say the difficult meat of this episode. Yeah, or volume. Yes. Yes. There's just no two ways about it. This is one of the darker, harder periods of American history. Right.

We've made it through the Civil War. And for me, and I think probably a lot of listeners, I was really looking for a lighter note, a happy ending. And the Civil War just doesn't get us that. It really doesn't. The Civil War leads right into difficult eras of reconstruction, difficult continuation of Indian wars. And it's really, it's hard stuff to know about. So, geez, there are a few different ways we need to go about this on both breaking down Reconstruction and the Indian Wars. We're going to start with a more complicated figure. I mean, this is a complicated era in time. So, we're going to our most complicated confederate without a question. Yeah. James Ol' Pete Longstreet. And I think that his life story, his life philosophies, and the actions and choices of his life really show just how complicated reconstruction is because he is such a complicated person. Yeah.

So, I mean, you've been through the episodes with us, then you know him well. You're very familiar with our buddy, old Pete, this Confederate general. I mean, the old war horse as Bobby Lee, Robert E. Lee, affectionately referred to him. This man was a major Confederate general. Yes, and he was definitely raised in the South to believe in states' rights.

Yes. And he signed up to fight for the Confederacy. That was very much a choice. It doesn't seem like it was as conflicted as a choice as like Robert E. Lee had. He was pretty much all in well he he was definitely i mean he he was his patriotism was rooted in part within the concept of states rights and i think not that we want to rehash the civil war by any means but that's part of understanding the complexities of some of the the men who are going to war for the

confederacy especially at the beginning of the war when it's you going to war for the Confederacy, especially at the beginning of the war when you haven't gotten to the drafts yet on both sides and things haven't dragged out. He's in a corner of the South where, yes, there's this strong tradition of states' rights. And so it becomes a very clear path, I guess you could say. Yeah, yeah.

So he fights through the war, but then after the war, he's granted a pardon. And he has a major shift in thinking. Yeah. I mean, he becomes a radical Republican. Yeah, not just a Republican, a radical Republican. And you were saying earlier, Greg, that you really think that that shows genuine conversion. Yeah. I mean, this isn't somebody who is looking around and at least in my mind, okay, this is my own analysis here, but you don't go 180 degrees if it's just an attempt to assuage the powers that be. So the radical Republican portion of Congress is starting to get its way on reconstruction.

Well, I mean, he's down here in the South. He's losing points by getting on board with the radical Republicans. Oh, he's losing a lot of points. He's not just losing points. He's losing friends. I mean, there are a lot of societies that are set up, Daughters of the Confederacy and whatnot, and he's not invited to their parties. He's not invited to publish a memoir or publish a book the way that so many other Confederate leaders are and Confederate generals are. His side of the story really gets sidelined, really, because it's not popular. It's not popular with ex-Confederates. And so that for me is where I look at it and I feel like that's a pretty genuine thing. You don't, you know, there was nothing really yes okay he gets employment because he does end up working for the for the the government yeah sure so he gets a job out of becoming a republican so i mean

sure if you want to be super cynical i guess you can you can lean on that but there are other ways to make a living there are and there are plenty of people, you know, carpetbaggers and scalawags who were definitely just doing it for the job. Yeah. But I think that old Pete's actions show that he was very much all in. This was very genuine. I think his actions at the Battle of Liberty Place in 1874 really show that. Yes. You know, he's putting his life on the line for his new found ideals. Yeah. So I think it's worth thinking about and looking at him partly because he drops out of the narrative.

He does. I mean, he's not a Republican loyalist from day one. Yeah, he's no Thaddeus Stevens, right? Yeah. Who's always been so principled and he's no Charles Sumner. Well, and not to say that old Pete is, not to imply that he's the opposite of Thaddeus Stevens

in terms of lacking principles, but just, you know, the Republicans aren't going to look to a Johnny come lately. No. Who was a Confederate who had to receive a pardon from the federal government because he was a Confederate general, right? Like anyone who's involved at this level,

if they ever want to vote again, even, they had to receive a pardon. Right. Right. So, and there were plenty of those given. But yeah, this isn't someone that you see the, you know, Civil War veterans, the Union lining up to pat on the back. Plenty of these men are still going to see him as the person who indirectly is responsible for their brother being dead or whatever the case may be. Right, right. Who fought against them on the battlefield.

And because there are so many readily available, nicely packaged Republican heroes, James Longstreet just doesn't fit that. He's more complicated than that. Meanwhile, he's become, honestly, the bane of Southern society. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, he does not, he basically tanks his reputation the way he's seen by... By his peers?

Yes. Yeah, by his, you know... Throughout the South. His ex-compatriots, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that brings us to a really interesting overarching point about, well, the Reconstruction era, but then about why he gets left behind by history. So we see that he hasn't, he hasn't cleanly fit into one side or the other into good guy or bad guy or into Democrat or Republican. Well, yeah, good guy, bad guy, depending on which side you're on, right? So for the union, he's always tainted as having quote unquote been a bad guy or union,

you know, Republicans, Northerners, whichever term you want to roll with. Whichever of the complicated terms you want, yeah. And meanwhile, you know, he's seen as a traitor who has left the good side in the eyes of Southerners and former Confederates. So he kind of slips into the cracks there. But I really like studying him. I like thinking about him.

It brings to mind this quote I came across long, long ago, back as a grad student. Okay, that's not like long, long ago. It's a pretty long time ago, right? Okay, it's fine. I'll make peace with that. But David Cannadine, a professor of history at Princeton, he said, the older I get, the more I'm convinced that it's the purpose of politicians and journalists to say the world is very simple whereas it's the purpose of historians to say no it's very complicated and hey nothing but love to your cousin who works at whatever newspaper all right sure okay or the politicians who are listening um but it you know historians we live in a world where it's our job to get into this nitty gritty. And we have that luxury, I guess, the benefit of hindsight, of distance. And in a world of papers turning around fast, people wanting you to play a side in politics. Yes.

You can see where, that's part of what I enjoy about the quote, you can see where the dynamics actually press us to have these very simple two-dimensional answers in our present. Yeah. When in reality, it's a much more complicated three-dimensional problem or person. Yep. Yeah. But that doesn't work in a 240 character tweet. No. No, it doesn't.

So, all right. Well, I want to get into the parties themselves. Look at how Republicans and Democrats have re-invented, well, maybe reinvent is a strong word, but where they're at as we get into Reconstruction. But we'll take a quick break. Before we do that. Let's recharge your energy or whatever. We'll just skip ahead and join the conversation.

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NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. So, yeah, so let's look at the platforms of the Republican and Democratic Party during Reconstruction. Because in this era, they have pretty distinct platforms. That's not always the case in history. But in this era, it really is. Yes. So, well, it's worth remembering that, of course, we've got the radical Republicans, that the Republicans themselves have their... Yeah, they have wings. Yes, have their wings. But overall, you know, Republicans, they want to control, well, everyone wants to control Reconstruction, I suppose we could say. Yeah, they want to control Reconstruction at a federal level. Yes. Yes. So, and within that, the radical Republicans are pushing very hard for Black equality.

Yes. So, full-on equality, white, Black Americans. Same civil rights. Yes. Here we go, moving forward. And as a result, because that is their main goal, they are absolutely fine with military occupation of former Confederate states or any other measure that they say, this is our goal and we're going to get to it. They are fine with that. Yeah. Well, and we see the difference in that perspective with Andrew Johnson when he's president. You might remember the conversation. I mean, it's a painful conversation. The one he's having with Frederick Douglass that, yeah.

See how your, that face, that was just golden. That was great, yeah. That was a really uncomfortable chat. And in it, Andrew says, Andy, Tennessee Taylor. Andy. He makes his point to Frederick is that it would be wrong in his mind to force a state to have civil rights for black Americans. That seems crazy to us in the 21st century. In his mind, at least as he's presenting it, that is him respecting the democratic process within that state. That would be the democratic view at this juncture.

Yeah, that's the Democratic Party's view. So they are very much looking at, they would like to have reconstruction happen on a state level. So, you know, occupation of a state by the U.S. Army seems like a real bad idea. Seems like a real threat to federalism. And that's where they start to come up with the term home rule. Home rule. Yes. Yeah. So home rule then leads to more. We see that home rule is quickly translating to those in power wanting to re-establish essentially

status quo from before the war. So, okay, slavery's gone in language. Andrew Johnson was even down with the 13th Amendment. He didn't put up any qualms about that, but he certainly had qualms about real structural changes to society. Right. About, you know, then enforcing that and really actually enforcing it. And so that's where you come up with, which we discussed in our reconstruction episodes, like the Mississippi Plan, where states figure out

how are we going to restore the status quo antebellum. Yes. Right? How it was before the war. And so that's where you come up with the KKK, the White League, these very militant, basically militant arms. Most historians would agree that they're militant arms of the Democratic Party. That point was made by, I mean, we pour over both the primary sources as we write these episodes and the secondary sources. So in history talk talk we'd call

that the historiography this is what other historians have said and you know that that changes over time of course sure so a historian who really knows their stuff you know they could even tell you for instance the historiography of reconstruction is that it had a far more basically lost cause bend up until, frankly, about civil rights era. Yeah, and even beyond a little bit. Yeah, so the dominant narrative was really the big bad federal government that was over-domineering and pushing around the states and by about you know into the 70s 80s as we came out of civil rights and on more and more historians have gone well wait a minute we're we're actually we're looking at a federal government that's looking to hand out civil rights to all of its citizens right and that it's fighting against you know the kkkKK. We've got a white supremacist group that is killing people.

I mean, we'd call that terrorism in present parlance. And so as that's come more and more to the fore, that's where the historiography has gone. Point being, we pour over all this stuff, and I can't think of a present historian that really disagrees. No, no, there really isn't. So, yeah, most present historians here in the 21st century would say that what the KKK and the White League were the militant wing, the more radical wing of the Democratic Party there to. Use military means to impose what they're calling self, you know, home rule.

Right, right. And to get rid of and to fight against the Republican agenda of equality for white and black Americans. Yes. Which, again, they're seen as being imposed in a unconstitutional manner. Right. By the federal government through the use of military might. Right. But, you know, even backing up a step from that militarized wing, then you've got court decisions that take a look at the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments and say, you know, there's another way for us to take the teeth out of these, for us to block this radical Republican agenda.

And they make court decision after court decision leading, you know, across the 1870s, 1880s, 1890s, that really, yeah, again, take the teeth out, cut a bunch of holes into. Yeah, that's a great expression. Yeah. Yeah. Just punctures, essentially. I mean, it'd be like if you had a canteen that's supposed to hold water, right? And each of these little court decisions are kind of just putting pinholes in it.

And, you know, you let that continue for two, three decades. And that's where, you know, when we mentioned this in the last Reconstruction episode, that, yeah, we kind of tend to look at the election of Rutherford Hayes as president. It's kind of like the end of Reconstruction. That's just because, again, we're two-dimensional human beings. And we love clean endings. We love clean endings. So we can be like, yep, this is Reconstruction.

Put it in a box. Call it good. But in truth, you know, it's not as though Reconstruction is dead in the moment of that election. There are still lingering black legislators and activists and civil rights workers who are out there working. And they don't disappear. I mean, there are there. They are, they're very visible. They're very active fighting for black rights. But these court decisions that take all of the power out of the 14th Amendment, all of the power out of the 13th Amendment, they really allow Jim Crow to become the legal status of the day. Yeah. And that's why, you know, I mean, I remember always thinking, well, not that I understand civil rights movement, but when you read the 13th, 14th, 15th Amendment, just taking it on surface level, you kind of scratch your head and think like, how did this not work right out the gate?

So, you know, it's these court rulings. And of course, this being a survey, we won't get to every single one of them, but we will definitely, you're going to hear about those down the road. So Plessy v. Ferguson is probably the most famous. Yeah, that's the most well-known. And that's not even until 1896. Precisely. So we still have Reconstruction getting slowly torn apart bit by bit. Yeah, across the second half of the 1800s. But that is why the legislation of the 1950s and 1960s was necessary. It was because you had to give the power back to these amendments that the court decisions had taken away. Because those court decisions, they set precedents, and then those precedents are used for future rulings. Right. So you needed laws that would then change the way that a court, that a judge, if they're doing their job right, they're going to look at the way precedents have been decided previously.

At least this actually starts to get into some discussion about what judges do. Sure. Because certainly there are some instances where judges have said, no, this was decided incorrectly the first time around. And then that sets different precedent. Anyhow, I mean, this is a whole nother bag to get into. And we'll get to all this stuff. But when Congress writes a bill and it becomes a law, that liberates, I guess you could say, judges who would be held, felt held by a previous precedent to be able to really say, okay, this, you know, we've had a real rule change. Now we can interpret in a different way. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Anything else we're going to say on that?

I think that's it. I think that that's what we needed to cover for reconstruction. Yeah. And we're obviously going to get into these episodes more later, but yeah, we can't get ahead of ourselves. No, we'll leave it there for now. We don't want to give away too much of the story. All right, so we'll take just one more break here. And then we'll hit Indian Wars. Perfect. And welcome back.

So, Indian Wars. Yeah. Now, what we covered for this section was really Indian Wars in Western America for a few decades. And obviously in our first episode, we did a fairly quick and broad overview of the multiple Indian wars that have been happening since the beginning of United States history. Yes. But, you know, then we kind of zoomed in on Western America. Right. And part of the, I mean, it's a challenge doing this survey of U.S. history. It is. Truly, it is. It is not easy fitting in all the things in a narrative fashion, not just in a single episode, but in terms of trying to think about that.

How does this whole narrative work overall? I mean, we, for instance, the U.S.-Dakota War, we thought about making that an episode a year ago. Yeah. But ultimately decided it was just going to be too jarring to insert something that kind of feels off topic almost amidst the Civil War. The Civil War was already good grief so many episodes. It was. So many movie bards. Yeah. And so we decided, you know, we're just going to, we'll circle back to this.

We're going to leave it on the shelf for a minute. And then we do a series of Indian episodes, which apparently we decided to do with Reconstruction and perhaps just depress a whole lot of people. Yes. We're sorry that we took 2020 even further, further down for any of you who are already having a tough year. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, but we, we go through U.S. history. I mean, that's, that's the survey. Yeah. You having a tough year. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, but we go through U.S. history. I mean, that's the survey.

Yeah. You can't skip it. No. Yeah. Because it's uncomfortable or unhappy. No. That would make us, that in my mind would be unethical. Sure.

So. Sure. We got to cover it. And anyhow, so we put it together because, I mean, just like if you're reading a textbook, you know, units are organized in a certain way to make the and being able to, for instance, where Lincoln makes, you know, an ominous large decision to be able to put into context, you know, I'm assuming that for many of you listening, you'd be like, right, yeah, I know what Lincoln was going through at the time. We can mention the names of some big battles and generals really in passing. But give some context. Right. Yeah. So understand what's happening in other parts of the country. Yeah. It was nice to be able to context. Right. Yeah. So you understand what's happening in other parts of the country.

Yeah, it was nice to be able to play into that. Yeah. All right. I'm sorry. I nerded out a little too much on. That's okay. All right. Let's just dive into a little bit more on the Indian Wars themselves. So we've talked to, I mean, we've read several different historians and talked to members

of different Native American tribes. And just some overarching themes that have come up is one historian, he's a Canadian historian actually, Anton Truet, and he makes the point that reading and learning about Indian wars can be pretty brutal. Not can be. Is pretty brutal. It's pretty difficult things to talk about and to learn about. And he says that the one silver lining that he finds is not that the Indian Wars happened, but that the tribes, so many of the tribes have found ways to survive and keep their cultural traditions alive to the 21st century through the brutality that happened to them. You know, one of the interesting things, so I'm going to go ahead and mention Keisha. She's become a good friend in this process. And thanks again. I actually did mention her earlier in the episode,

but Keisha Little Bear, I'm going to mess up the second half of her last name, but Keisha Little Bear Cetrone, she's Northern Cheyenne and has been listening for quite a while. And so we exchanged a few messages and I knew as I was getting to the Battle of the Little Bighorn, yeah, I want some perspective and a lot of help with pronunciation. So that was enormously useful. But I was, well, a little surprised, I guess, when she told me that in traveling at times, when Keisha's mentioned that she's Northern Cheyenne, indigenous, you know, Native American, that she's met a number of people who are shocked that she is an indigenous person because they didn't realize there were indigenous people today. Yes.

And obviously, we're all to some degree the reflection of kind of where we grow up and our experiences. So I personally found that kind of, it was weird for me. I mean, I guess just growing up in the West. I mean, both Greg and i grew up in the west and so we have known a lot of native americans we uh have traveled through and been to native our indian reservations uh that was not a surprise what was a surprise was that keisha said please make sure that people know we're still here yeah so hey i'm i am happy to you know still very happy to, if you weren't aware of that,

let's go ahead and just set the record straight on that. Yep. Keisha's a person. Yes. And that feels actually a little more ominous to say after covering Standing Bear's trial, right? Yeah. Yes, indeed.

I mean, a person and here and, you know, still here today. Right. Right along with that, you know, as we were working on, I mean, getting to that episode, talking about Standing Bear, within that we also had the Nez Perce and Chief Joseph. Yeah. And that was, I mean, that's another heartbreaking tale. Man, 40 miles shy of the Canadian border. Oh, yeah. tailed man 40 miles shy of the canadian border oh yeah but uh the flag for the nez pierce nation which again is a thing it exists today um yeah absolutely so this flag that still exists for

the nez pierce nation today shows so many things about their heritage and about who they are today and where they've come from yeah so. So it has the shape of the reservation. You might recall me describing it at one point, kind of elongated, five-sided. A scholar, I can't remember which one it was, but one of them described it as being almost coffin-shaped. That kind of works the uh in the middle of the flag is an image of chief joseph and around him is a circle and in it says nez pierce tribe treaty of uh 1855 right so i mean this flag right here's here's this flag by which they represent themselves you can see how so much of their memory and thoughts are focused on this particular moment in time. Right.

Yeah, that they were a peaceful people who had made a treaty and they were sticking to it. And they're still telling that story. Well, and that 1855 treaty, as maybe some people remember, it's so seared into our heads after poring over the material and writing these episodes. Old Joseph, Chief Joseph's father, he wouldn't sign that. No. So, you know, you've got the 1855 treaty there representing the flag, but it still doesn't even speak to an agreement that was made by… The whole tribe?

Yeah. Just part, right? Yeah, I remember reading old Joseph's reactions to the treaty, like, you can't just partition land, you can't sell land, nor could you sell air, which of course, in 21st century America, of course you can sell air. You know, airspace, that's a thing we discuss all the time, right? Drones, that's an issue. But that's an American concept, not an indigenous concept. And it's a very clash, you know, it's a moment where you have this very serious clash of concepts. Yes, of values, of cultures,

that there really just isn't middle ground. There's very little compromise. And yeah, that treaty is a good example of that. That was... It was quite interesting to me to see as, you know, as I was pouring over a lot of this stuff, where there was often, you know, kind of this pattern.

We laid it out at the end of the last episode of initially a few explorers or settlers show up and we have this phase where there's plenty of coexistence and it's fine. And for me, again, this is just my take, but something that kind of clicked was thinking on, right, for a lot of these indigenous peoples.

And I'm also taking it, I'm extrapolating from some of the context of things that i read them saying in these treaty negotiations they had um i mean the land isn't something that they would ever say to to a new newly arrived explorer like you you can't be there because that's ours the the they're more caretakers of the land i believe is is the right term right yeah there are many tribes that really are like all right we're sharing right yeah and so you know they are very much coexisting and so the animals and the other people on the land and so that philosophy when you then get to a treaty this is no here are stark lines and you don't cross this line we don't cross this line yeah it you can see where a lot's going to get yeah misunderstood yeah well and then of course

we get past the the misunderstood and just into the... I mean, just the outright lies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think that brings us to an interesting point that a modern historian has brought up. And when she said this, she was not speaking about Native American history, but I think it applies here.

And I think it's interesting. She said, this is Sally Wagner. She said, history isn't what happened. It's who tells the story and i think that with indian wars we've only heard one side of the story for a long time that's been very traditional i mean at least when i was in grade school you know i didn't know that the battle of the little bighorn was also called the battle of the greasy grass i knew that the battle of the little bighorn was also called custer's last stand because because I learned one side of the story told by one group. And perhaps you don't hear about how Custer

plays a fascinating, precipitating role in that he's the one who was exploring in the Black Hills. Right. I mean, that is... Yeah, he's the one, his expedition is the one that's discovering gold in the Black Hills that's creating the whole problem to begin with. Not that he would know exactly what that's going to lead to for himself. No. But, yeah, I mean, that's the Fuller picture. And I think that, I mean, Fuller is the right word. Often people get a little afraid when we start getting into a history that's uncomfortable and we we can retreat to corners and we want to well back to that two-dimensional concept right

we we want good guy bad guy and you know they're we're better served to go with and statements instead of or statements it's not this is the story of this battle or of American history. Or it's, you know, America was always getting it right or America's always got it wrong. There are ands. There are moments where, you know, the story looks different from a different perspective. Right. And it's okay to tell Custer's side of the story. What a terrifying battle that would have been, how terrifying it would have been to die on that hill. Even the Lakota and Cheyenne and Arapaho men, some of them are saying how sorry they're feeling for Custer's men, right?

Yes. And, you know, I certainly pause and think, like, what about some of these guys were, we mentioned an Italian recruit. These guys, some of them are green as can be. That's actually part of their problem. Yeah. You know, they've just enlisted. They're just trying to pay bills, perhaps, you know. Yeah.

They haven't been involved in this whole fight, but they don't realize what their predecessors have already done. Right. involved in this whole fight, but they don't realize what their predecessors have already done. Right. And so they step into this, what's the word I'm looking for? Mess. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, it doesn't take away from the sadness of any human death, but wow. I mean, when you have the context, good grief. I get where the Lakota and the Cheyenne and the Arapaho are coming from. Yeah, and it's okay.

It doesn't take away from Custer's side of the story to tell their side of the story, to hear both sides. And we're really good at doing that, I think, in the Civil War. I think we're really good at doing that. We're really good at embracing, hey, this battle was called something else by the Confederates. This battle, there's two sides to the story. The Confederates said it this way. The Union soldiers said it this way. We're going to tell both. We're going to let both stories live. And I think that that's an important lesson that we can apply to the Indian Wars as well. Well, yeah, and we did our best to do that. But we tried to point out some of the generals who are really conflicted. There are definitely some bad settlers. I think that's

just without question. I mean, we're reading about settlers that murder or rape or steal cattle without provocation. So that does happen. Or all three. Yes. happen. But then we've also got, you know, the John Gibbon types who, you know, I quoted him a number of times. This guy is not comfortable with what's going on. No, he's not. So, you know, you can see kind of the wheels turning in his head and trying to you know trying to make decisions based on orders that he's given versus what he's seeing on the ground these are tough decisions and you can see sometimes he's thinking okay well how can i fight against this and get what's best for these indigenous peoples that i know and i'm trying to work with yeah and also follow my bosses back in D.C. who are, you know, right in my paycheck.

Well, and then you get to this uncomfortable place where they're, I'm thinking specifically of Oliver Howard, you know, his being nice has now gotten him dubbed as a quote unquote Indian lover. So there's actually a negative connotation for him following his conscience at junctures. Right. So that creates a negative loop. Right. Well, and then you've got the George Crooks, who the indigenous peoples call three stars. Yes.

And George Crook has followed orders a lot. And then he's watched the outcomes. And he's tired of it. He's tired of being this brutal person who forces Native Americans onto reservations with little to no supplies, little to no food, not enough space. And watching what happens, watching the death and disease. Well, and I will also say, you know, the fact that he was well-respected by a time at least we get to to omaha he's he's well respected and a number of indigenous peoples from different nations they feel that they can trust him that also speaks to him managing to find some sort of higher road that clearly a number of most of his colleagues are not finding right right yeah but by the the time we met him in 1874, don't quote me on that here. 1870s. Come on, Ciel. The secret of good history is to always back off when you're unsure.

Exactly. We met him in the 1870s. But by the time we've met him, he is determined to find a legal way to follow his orders and help Standing Bear. Thus, we end up with that trial. Yeah. And, you know, George Crook allows himself to go on trial because he is like, well, this is the system we're going to use and we're going to use this system to someone else's advantage. That's right. So, Standing Bear, sue me. That's how they play it. And, you know, as that's going on,

I just have to throw this in because it sat with me and I kind of wish I had pointed this out in the episode. Sticking with that, but shifting back over to John Gibbon with the Nespiers. And you remember me saying this to you already, Ciel, but the quote that I shared right before the big hole, which that is one of the most atrocious battles in my estimation.

I mean, this battle, right? And I've got this quote right before we go into this battle from John Gibbon. And he, I mentioned he's speaking to a bishop and he starts his quote with, you knowing our gentle disposition, something to that effect, basically, hey, you know what good guys we are, right? So you can imagine how hard it was for us to hear this village with babies crying and the humanity of it.

He's talking to a bishop. And so I don't belabor this in the episode, but I mean, clearly this is a guy who's, he's looking for absolution. This is a man wracked with guilt. He's bothered by, you know, his struggle to follow orders and hold on to his decency. Yeah. And I think that any soldier who has gone to war in a difficult place like that, and I think that there are probably a lot of soldiers in America in the 21st century who could relate to John Gibbon and the difficulty of what they've seen, what they've seen other soldiers do,

maybe even things they've participated in, right? That it's like, wow, this is really hard for me to swallow that I was following orders and this is what ended up happening. I definitely take your point. I don't think you mean that all U.S. soldiers commit atrocities. I just want to make sure we're not. Right. But I do think that a lot of soldiers see some pretty brutal things. Even when you're following orders, I say this as someone who has not been in uniform, and so I'm not going to even pretend you know i can grasp what um but well both of my grandfathers served in world war ii and one of them was on the front lines of italy

and um it is our understanding from from what he passed on that i mean he he did actually disobey orders a time or two when he was, at least one instance, he was, he was told to shoot a German. They were in Italy, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

A German had stepped on one of their own mines, a German shoe mine. Oh, and the guy was yelling for help to the Americans. He's desperate at this point, right? Absolutely. And my grandfather's commanding officer said,

I, you need to shoot him. We need to end him. He's screaming he's going to give away our position and we're all going to be dead. Like, I mean, think about the situation there, right? It's awful. There is no win-win. No. And I guess my grandpa, you know, of course, family tradition. So you kind of wonder about how things might, I'm not trying to take away

from my grandfather here, but historian, I always have to be like, all right, what really happened? But he hemmed and hawed or he just, he wasn't quick on it. And so the commanding officer just went to the next soldier and said, you do it. And in that moment, it was actually enough time for the German to see what was going on i think my if i remember my grandpa started to point his rifle and then then maybe couldn't do it and it was just enough time for the german to scurry behind a tree or a rock and he shut the hell up from that and you know and it's haunted i know that story because it's haunted my grandfather yes well i mean he's passed now but it haunted him the rest of his life wondering what happened And it's haunted. I know that story because it's haunted my grandfather.

Yes. Well, I mean, he's passed now, but it haunted him the rest of his life, wondering what happened to that German. Yeah. Yeah. The way that John Gibbon is haunted by the things he's seen, the things he's seen other soldiers do in following orders. Right. These are brutal things. I don't believe, just knowing John Gibbon as I do from the sources,

I don't believe for a second that he was someone who was, you know, executing civilians, doing that sort of a thing. But he clearly, he was at the battle. He saw that stuff.

Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think that haunted him. Yeah. And, you know, I think that brings up a really good point that many of the soldiers, obviously not all of them, like the guys at the Battle of the Little Bighorn with Custer, but many of these guys are Civil War hardened soldiers. Yes. They have seen combat.

Definitely Crook, Phil Sheridan, you know, Gibbon. They have invented and then enforced total warfare. And the thing is, is when we talk about the Civil War, these are guys who were fighting for the Union, which we in the 21st century have dubbed the winners. Yep. Back to our two dimensions. Yeah. Therefore, the things they did in the Civil War were justified and it was fine. So when we talk about them going through the Shenandoah Valley and literally picking it clean, not caring or not, you know, being told not to care about the civilians who were left behind to starve. Which happened. Which absolutely happened. You know, we look at that and say, well, yes, but it was needed because we needed to win the Civil War. But those are the same things that are happening out West because this is the warfare

that these men have learned. They are comfortable waging war on civilians. They have learned to do it. And those lessons, they have a hard time leaving. So a lot of the soldiers, you wonder why. Why didn't everybody disobey orders? Well, they knew how to do this. Right. I mean, they've learned that this is how war works. Yes. Yes. They have experience and they know this is how you win a war.

Yeah. I mean, Phil Sheridan was excellent at that very process. And I guess this is kind of the last major thing to really bring home is that when it comes to history, if we're doing good and honest history, which we really try to, we literally lose sleep over it. It's not a fairy tale. You just don't get, if you're looking for good guys and bad guys, you will be disappointed pretty much every time. Yeah. I even, I kind of think back to episode one, within the first five minutes, I think it was, right? I make this point about how George Washington is put on a pedestal by some people, right? And some people want him on it, and then that leads others to overreact. They want him off that pedestal. And I think that applies to all U.S. history. It applies to all history, all peoples, Phil Sheridan, yes, great hero on the right side, as we term it today, of the Civil War. But he says the only good Indian, at least he's alleged to have said, the only good Indian I've ever met was a dead one.

Yeah. Right. So. And if he didn't say those exact words, he thought them. He did. These are the more complicated, complex people that we get into. I mean, Phil Sheridan is also a great advocate for Black Americans. Yes, he is. So why is he an advocate for Black Americans, but not for Indigenous Americans? This is reality. This is the complexity of history, of people, what prejudices have been introduced, to what extent. Yeah, these are three-dimensional figures. They have shiny, nice sides.

Yeah. They have really dark sides, just like all of us. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not making an argument for moral relativism here, but, you know, the good guys do bad things. The bad guys do good things. Sometimes good things are done for the wrong motivations and, you know, vice versa. Wrong things are done. Ulysses Grant as president with his peace policy, I feel like that is a very good man who has very noble ambitions. And his peace policy towards the indigenous population, it's not working. Yeah.

Yeah, it is. It's unworkable. Right. He can't enforce it. And it's not working yeah yeah it is it's unworkable and he can't enforce it and it doesn't get enforced I frankly I love Grant he's one of these people

that the more I learn about him for the most part you know the more I think of him my esteem increases you know but he's

a human being and he's gonna make wrong decisions yeah as we all do and those have huge ramifications when you're president. Yeah, they absolutely do. So yeah, it's just, it's so important to tell the whole story about any person. And if we can not expect perfection

from our historical figures, we can realize that their lives are as complicated and difficult as ours. Yeah. And include those and statements, like you were saying earlier. Don't jump to the or statements. Jump to the and statements. Phil Sheridan did this good thing and this bad thing, quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if there's a better note to wrap up than on that, huh? Yeah, I think so. These are really hard subjects. Honestly, it's the sort of thing where I wish all of you could be in a classroom with me and we could have an actual discussion. It's one of the frustrations of it all being over a mic and so one-dimensional, or not one-dimensional, one-directional.

But I hope that you've gotten a lot of good information and things for you to think about and be able to discuss. Right. Well, making a very radical shift in topic, Ciel, you're leaving. I'm leaving HTDS. This is my last episode with HTDS. There are a lot of exciting things happening in my life that make it palatable to leave. But it is, it's hard. It's hard to acknowledge. So for the past year and a half, I've been getting a master's in academic advising. And I'll graduate this coming August. And in the meantime, I've accepted a position as an academic advisor actually at the same university where Greg currently works.

So I think our paths will still cross occasionally. They sure will. Yeah. We'll still see each other. But I'm going to miss working with you on this, though. Still cross occasionally. They sure will. Yeah. We'll still see each other. I'm going to miss working with you on this though. And I'm going to miss working with you on this. I mean, I'm excited to launch a new part of my career.

Absolutely. And I'm excited for you. As I told you from, it is kind of funny thinking about both you and Josh and the like, I don't know. You had a similar facial expression in each of you when you break me this news. I'm happy, you know, I'm so happy for Josh. He is doing fantastic, you know, and I'm happy for you. And obviously, you know, I miss working with Josh. Right. Yeah. We love Lindsay and Airship, but it's not like Josh disappeared. I have seen the man a few times. And yeah, we'll bump into each other on campus. I'm going to have to figure out what

epilogues look like. Yeah, there won't be these conversations anymore. That will be different. No, they won't. But I'm happy for you. I'm sure everyone listening is happy for you. Thanks. Yes. Yeah. All right. I guess that does it. I guess it does. So for the last time, I'll say goodbye to everyone. And I hope you keep, well, I know you'll keep enjoying the podcast. Oh, shucks. Well, see, I'll go ahead and enjoying the podcast. Oh, shucks.

Well, C.L., go ahead and sign us out here. All right. Join us. Join us in two weeks where Greg will tell you a story. History That Doesn't Suck is created and posted by me, Greg Jackson. Researching and writing by Greg Jackson and C.L. Salazar. Production by Airship. Sound design by Derek Behrens.

Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. For bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit htdspodcast.com. HTVS is supported by fans at patreon.com forward slash history that doesn't suck Ciel and I are beyond grateful

to you kind souls providing funding to help us keep going. Thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Will Caldwell Jason Carstens John Frugal-Dougal Michael and Rachel Ercolini Bob Bob Drazovich, Keith Downer,

Drew Hill, Andrew Fortunati, Bryce Hancock, Brad Berman, Dex Jones, John Leach, Jeffrey Moose, and Brandon Shaw. Join me in two weeks where I'd like to tell you a story. HTDS is supported by premium membership fans. You can join by clicking the link in the episode I'd like to tell you a story. Ryan Goodson, Bronwyn Cohen, Carrie Begel, Charles and Shirley Clendenin, Charlie Magis, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, David DeFazio, David Rifkin, Denki, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moods, Jennifer Magnolia, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppock, Joe Dovis, John Frugal-Dougal, John Boovey, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Radlavich, John Schaefer, Thank you. and Zach Jackson.