History That Doesn't Suck - 90: Epilogue to the Wild West

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

This is the end of the West! Meet two new researchers, Ryan Griffith and Zach Weaver, as they join Greg to discuss the latest inner workings of HTDS, the Transcontinental Railroad, Buffalo Bill, and industrialization. As they wrap up, Greg then discusses the Golden Spike Ceremony with National Park Service Lead Ranger Lucas Hugie. They do so on-site, just a stone's throw from where the Transcontinental Railroad was completed. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So come together and find your holiday magic, only at Starbucks. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes. If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I am your professor, Greg Jackson.

And today, as I epilogue for the first time without Josh or CL. This is a new chapter. I am joined by Ryan Griffith. Ryan, you want to say hello to the fine people? Hello, fine people. Excellent. So Ryan is a former student of mine from back in the day at Utah Valley University. He's now an illustrious graduate student. Trying to be.

Out in the DC area. And so he is stepping in to do a little bit of research. And I'm also joined by the one, the only, Zach Weaver. Hi, Greg. How are you doing? Hey, there's actually probably more than one Zach Weaver in the world. Dollars to donuts. There's probably at least one more. Probably. So, Zach, you are one of, to kind of fill in people a little bit, I've brought on a number of interns from Utah Valley University and from Brigham Young University. I forgive you. You come from the BYU side of that. But that's okay. So there are a number of other interns. Obviously, we can't put half a dozen on one epilogue. And you've all been doing some great work. Thank you very much. You know, I have to compliment you. Your mom's listening. Yes, she is.

Did you want to say hi to your mom? Hi mom. How are you doing? That's what this was really about. But, uh, I do want to go ahead and just acknowledge all the other interns that you may have heard these names being listed among the additional research that's being done on, on every episode. So of course we've got Zach, also Taylor Tree, Jack V and Jack T. That's fine, right? Jack Basso, Jack Tingy, Mason Staffer, Will King, and Amy, man, Amy, your last name, Hudak, I believe. I've said that correctly.

Amy can send me a strongly worded email later. Also someone who, I don't know if Kelsey has ever been acknowledged on the podcast before. If you're following us on the social media accounts, you might be more aware of her. But Kelsey Dines, she has been handling social media and a number of other things in the background for quite a long time. So she was here when Josh and Ciel were here, at least towards the end of Josh's days. So there are a number of people at this point

involved in history that doesn't suck. And we're just here with you, you two gentlemen this evening, but we'll look forward to bringing on some far better intern guests in the future. Sorry, Zach. I would hope so. Yeah, yeah.

Please do. No, Zach, you've done great work. You know that. I've told you that. I really have appreciated everything you're doing. So I appreciate that you can get my sarcasm and I hope your mom can. So, okay.

So that's kind of the catch up on what's been going on with HTDS kind of behind the scenes. Per the usual, though, I always like to start with any notable little corrections. And gratefully, the pronunciation thing is dropping off, frankly, because as the podcast gets bigger, I'm grateful to have so many friends, listeners across the country. So these days, instead of praying, I can find the correct pronunciation on some river in a state I have never visited somewhere and on the internets, which everything is trustworthy there. Always. It's not, you know, I can't even feign that one.

I want to be very clear when you're researching, you do not just grab the first website. That's not acceptable, as my students have learned when I grade their papers. I think Abraham Lincoln, it was Abraham Lincoln who said, everything you read on the internet is true. He did. I saw that in a meme. There it go. Yeah. A man ahead of his time. Truly. Truly, indeed. So I've got, as I see it, friends now just across the country,

and it's so useful to be able to either get on his do the does and sucks Patreon account or the Facebook group. Those are kind of my go-tos. I've tried Twitter here and there. I mean, I'm on there, but the Facebook group is where people are just super responsive for whatever reason. I can just double check pronunciations and I've got a local telling me how to say it. And just thank you to all of you. That all said, Murphy, my dear friend, 10-year-old Murphy out in Tennessee, his mom sent me an email on his behalf. And so episode 30, talk about a throwback. I mean, years ago, and Murphy, the up-and-coming historian of his generation, caught that I gave the wrong first name to a congressman, Congressman Floyd, I believe from Virginia. I'm going to throw believe in there because, well, I didn't note the state and now I'm ripping. And it's been a while. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, naturally, I mean, I have to go look up the script. Like we're talking about something years ago. How many times has this been listened to? Sure enough, Murphy, you are just brilliant, sir. And, you know, if you feel like coming out to Utah when you get to college age, loved having a class.

So, Murphy, my thanks to you. And that has been addressed in that episode. So that's all we've got on that front this time around. We've acknowledged the changes in the crew. Okay. So Zach, Ryan, let's have a little bit of a chit chat here. Let's do it. You've ready to roll.

Excellent. So you've joined me on this volume. That is the wild west. We've built in road, the transcontinental railroad. We hung out with some gunslingers and, and then we, we saw the thing come to a close for me.

The, the big, most important piece of all this is really the second industrial revolution. Absolutely. I mean, we, we saw that very clearly right out the gate with the transcontinental railroad itself i loved setting up and trying to

show and i hope that it became very clear in in episode 83 what a significant world-altering technology the steam-powered locomotive really is. It was huge. It was crazy to think about and to digest that as we researched. It was incredible. And I think that we included this in the episode, but that the Transcontinental Railroad really was the landing on the moon of the 1800s that was an all-hands-on-deck kind of effort in the United States to change the West and ultimately change the shape of the country. And I mean, the impact of it, I might argue, at least to date, more significant than

the moon landing, which was awesome and cool. The railroad changed everyone's day-to-day life, which I don't know that I would go so far as to say that the moon landing has necessarily done that i mean obviously we can make larger arguments about being in space and what have satellites done i i get that but the transcontinental railroad the impact it had immediately you don't have to go out a click or two and then talk about larger extrapolations of how that technology would then lead to other things. The day that thing opened, you could now traverse the continent in a matter of days, right? This massive effort that took months previously, that was a harrowing risk to life to go back to the Oregon Trail episodes. And now it's a ticket on a train. Life changing, nation changing. And I think that you start to see the American character

being forged on those rails, that America becomes what it is today, in large part because of the second industrial revolution, because of these changes that are happening on the transcontinental railroad. We were kind of riffing on this a little bit earlier, Zach, right? We were talking about how there's always been an independence of the American spirit, if you will. Good word. Thank you. See what I did there? Yeah, you made sure to declare that independence.

Oh, dear. Wow. I feel like Josh would be proud. I'm not invited on the podcast anymore. In fact, Zach, if you could actually leave right now. I think Ryan and I have this. But it really, it becomes heightened. And I think homesteading leads to, I mean, so many of the life of the pioneer that feels very isolated. And then the way that it is remembered and romanticized by Buffalo Bill, that all adds to whatever independence there may already have legitimately been in that space, Buffalo Bill takes that and he just knocks the walls down. He makes it feel far more independent than was reality. Because really, all of these pioneers, at least once we

get into the latter part of the 19th century, I mean, I mentioned the Sears catalogs, right? Montgomery Ward. There's a robust national economy that people across the nation, they're tapping into. You can't rob trains unless ridiculous sums of wealth are being transferred across those trains. You don't have the gunslingers, the outlaws, and all those aspects that we identify with the golden years of the cowboy of the wild west, the old west, however you want to describe the American west of the mid to late 19th century, it can't exist. It can't be there without the railroad. To me, and this was one of my favorite parts of this whole several episodes that we covered,

it was cool to see how everyday Americans of, I mean, every different race, creed, right? Every group to some extent ends up kind of catching that vision that the railroad brings, right? And, you know, you're talking about like the beef industry that which we discussed, right? Blows up and, you know, brings incredible wealth to some people, incredible opportunity. And it was fun to see that on both sides of the law, right? That in one way or another, people were inspired by the new world

that was created by the railroad and they took advantage of that. Yeah, and on an international level as well, right? I mean, we're now talking about trade going from the East Coast clear across the Pacific and off to Asia as our friend Asaa whitney dreamed of so it's funny to think and we covered this in the episode but that he was laughed at by people across the country for this whole idea of now we're going to connect with rail and it'll bring prosperity and opportunity

like we haven't even thought of and he was like last spot on all the time yeah but it was you know genius well that's the thing with dreamers right is that they're always laughed at and many times they are wrong it's always laughable until they're right and he was now of course as we say that that would not be the feeling sentiment and, and experience of, say, the Cheyenne or the Sioux, right? And this is a constant. This is something that 21st century Americans can certainly relate to, 21st century anyone can relate to. Whenever there's disruption, right, there are changes, there are winners and there are losers. And the railroad, of course, brought that as well. So as we have certainly lived through an era with the rise and fall of dot coms and now increasingly ordering things online, and there are winners and losers and all that. Right. And I think we can sometimes feel as though these rapid changes, these massive disruptions, that they're new. Well, obviously quote and typo. Yeah, yes. The World Columbian Exposition

hosted in Chicago in 1893. If you're an older American, if you lived before the railroad became a thing, you have watched the world go from a place where travel over land was at best Pony Express zipping at an incredible 15 miles per hour and having to change horses and you'd have to be this twig athlete to pull it you know to even participate

in this thing right and no individual could do it only male think about that male can travel at this speed because it's too exhausting for a single person. This did not make it into the episode, but Buffalo Bill, who may or may not have written for the Pony Express, right? Yes. May or may not is going to be a frequent phrase with good old Buffalo Bill. And I want to tease this out a bit more.

I love this. As a historical figure, he's so fascinating because here's this man who's so obsessed with authenticity and in reality and realism and yet his life is so potentially not true right so i i really enjoy complicated figures and he's the epitome of it but we'll table that for just a second eyes on the prize him him, Pony Express. What didn't make it in there is that allegedly, if we even believe he rode for the Pony Express,

and this all gets into someone who doesn't mind making a legend of himself. It is said that this man who is one of the youngest ever to have ridden for the Pony Express also happens to have made the longest, if not one of the longest rides in the history for the Pony Express, also happens to have made the longest, if not one of the longest rides in the history of the Pony Express, that he got to his next station after his grueling several hours in the saddle. And if you haven't ridden a horse, which I realize is not

necessarily the most common experience, maybe those of us in the West have a little more opportunity to do that. I have not. You have not, Zach? Really? No, I think I'd break the horse's back. I'm a larger fellow. Zach, I do not think you would pull a fuss and feathers. If you remember the general

who had to be lowered onto his horse. Yeah. No, I think you'll do just fine. We can remedy that. Maybe a histate that doesn't suck. Horseback outing. Yes. A retreat for all the interns.

A retreat, yeah. That's in the budget. Join the Patreon. So we're, because that's going to be the enticer they're all like you know what zach needs to ride horses exactly that's it let me let me pull out the card uh so there's no one at the next station for whatever reason and so of course despite having just completed this ride to the point if you haven't ridden a horse it is exhausting it is not an easy, and I don't say that as some sort of skilled horseman by any means. I can stay up on a horse. I've ridden at high enough of a speed to know that if I rode at an actually fast speed, I would be exhausted. I mean, you're balancing, you're getting, it's a bumpy ride. It was the original full body workout, right? Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. All the fancy equipment people are buying, just go get a horse and ride

for an hour to a day. They'll take care of you, probably. I mean, I'm a historian. Don't take my advice on workouts. There's someone better for that. So he supposedly rides two legs in a row. So naturally, whether or not he even rode for the Pony Express, right? That's a big question mark. But if you believe he did, well, he also just happens to have been the most heroic rider in the history of the Pony Express, which to just continue to connect dots, again, here's something that's in and out, you know, a technology, right? That if we can frame it that way, to think of the infrastructure, to put the infrastructure in place

for these horses to connect from station to station to station to move mail that rapidly. And we covered it. And it's in and out within 18 months, right? So because of how rapidly technology is changing, I mean, it's basically like, it's the car phone of its era, you know?

Like it is hot and sexy for like five minutes and then it's it's the car phone of its era you know like it's it is hot and sexy for like five minutes and then it's gone it's done that's really well put thank you i mean like i we have discussed these things before but that like that that was the cake boom and it's a if only if only that episode were recorded yeah that'd been it's. That's what the West was and how we thought about time and measure time just changed so dramatically for people all across the country right it was and literally yeah with the train company you know companies all going you know what guys this sucks uh we need to sync up exactly so then sorry i didn't i totally took your steam right out of your locomotive it's okay your fireman was just shoveling away. And I was like.

It's over now. Doused it like Sam Bass's men at a. Wow. These are some super lame insider jokes. But if they've listened. Oh, they've listened. Oh, yeah. We're crushing it.

It incentivizes people to go back and listen. There it is. Yeah. Because you know what someone's thinking right now? Shucks. I didn't quite get Greg's lame dad joke. Man, I need to go back and revisit that episode. I'm sorry, Ryan.

You were saying something smart. No, you're fine. You're fine. But time, really. Because 18 months is not a long time frame at all. And yet it's like today, I'm sure within a reasonable distance of where we're recording tonight we can go and see sites that you know these original pony express riders went to where they would water the horses and switch out riders and pick up more mail or drop stuff off and

there there's a campsite right near one went camping with uh my my kid's scout troop just a few months ago. It is the middle of effing nowhere. Like, I mean, and hey, I had a great time. My big regret is that I didn't bring my telescope because there was zero light pollution. It was gorgeous. But yeah, it was the middle of nowhere. It was the sort of campsite where halfway there, I started thinking, I'm driving the wrong vehicle. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember visiting one of these sites as a kid. And I mean, it was kind of cool. Like, you know, I'd seen Wild West movies, right? Pony Express riders, like I got it. But very quickly, it was the, yeah, this really is the middle of nowhere. I have no idea how these people got around

for the sake of delivering their mail and knew exactly what direction to head off in. And it's pretty crazy. And this is where I think it's really fascinating just think about the romanticization. Think about actually being a part of this. Imagine being the bored to tears sucker that lives at one of these weigh stations waiting for a writer. Horrible.

It is your job to have no neighbors at all. I mean, it's basically, okay, so it's basically like the last year for most of us, right? But with no Netflix. I was just about to say, it's basically like the last year for most of us, right? But with no Netflix. I was about to say, it's quarantine without the internet. Yeah. So, I mean, if you want to go all Thoreau here, you know, I guess this is- This is their Walden Pond. Precisely.

This is the job for you. Yeah. People aren't bringing you pies though, you know? Yeah, no, there's, no, no. I mean, if anything, those Pony Express riders are like, what do you have for me? I'm exhausted. I just rode.

You've been sitting here all day. Yeah. In sweatpants waiting for me to drop off some mail. That's, that is it. That is not anachronistic at all. Sweatpants were, sweatpants are huge in the 19th century. Sweatpants were not huge in the 19th century. That was a disclaimer.

Leave it where Strauss was. Indeed, sir. Indeed. Well, it's catching on, catching on. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's circle over to Buffalo Bill some more.

Absolutely. So Ryan. Yes. We've discussed, and let's do this in greater detail because we kind of kept it brief. We followed him up to 1893. Then, of course, we sauntered on over to the expo, left Buffalo Bill collecting fat stacks of cash just outside of it, and good for him. But we didn't follow him through to the end of his life.

So we didn't ever get to him founding freaking Cody, Wyoming, right? And a footnotes version, he also does a show in the UK at Queen Victoria's Jubilee, does a show in Italy, heads over to the Vatican and otherwise tours Europe,

tries to divorce his wife. I believe if I recall correctly, the judge says no, but they wanted to terminate the marriage different era yeah um and then and we can circle back to this later uh to just kind of round it out starts to step into the film world because films are becoming a thing in the early 20th century and so shows like his are starting to decline that doesn't work out so great for him and he ends up dying not as wealthy as he once was in 1917 it's true okay so his life sketch done ryan cody wyoming you were talking about memory and the way

things play out there yeah so i had the pleasure and i mean that wasn't sarcasm like it was actually a fun town to live in but yeah sure you're not dialing i don't think the the people of Cody, Wyoming got the impression you're dialing that back at all. Yeah. No, yeah, no, I actually really did enjoy living in Cody, Wyoming for about six, eight months, a few years back. And, uh, I went in and like spring, uh, into the late summer. So I was able to see the Cody Stampede rodeo and all its glory. It's like one of the rodeos across the nation. There is literally a rodeo every night for like three months straight. You are, okay.

Man, I mean, we do rodeos here in Utah. Yes. I mean, that's a big thing. We have good rodeos here. We do. But. So the town I live in, there's a rodeo grounds and there's a rodeo once a year for a few days.

So when you tell me that it's on the daily for months, I'm just thinking about the sustained effort. I mean, it is a big deal to put on a rodeo. That is no small thing. Yeah, it's fantastic. And I'm in like the best of the best as they're up and coming in the rodeo world, they all go through Cody. And the whole town, it's really a beautiful area. But yeah, everybody comes out.

They have a fantastic arena and huge bleachers. It's on the west end of town, if I remember correctly. And yeah, the rodeo is huge. Everybody goes. So I loved getting to see that. And of course, went to the huge Buffalo Bill Museum there. But yeah, sticking with Buffalo Bill, talking with a few people in town, there are definitely mixed responses.

Some people sing his praises and there are other people are definitely mixed responses, you know? Some people are, you know, sing his praises and there are other people I definitely remember hearing, you know, talking, oh, he was a philanderer and a womanizer and he wasn't as great as some people think. But man, still such an interesting life. The Irma Hotel, still there. During the summers, they'll do fake, like, you know, gunslinger fights outside. And fun fact, the original bar, which if I'm not mistaken, is made out of cherry, but it's huge. It's still inside the Irma, which is named after his daughter. And so we got to go in there. They have fantastic food, you know, just like the whole atmosphere. I mean, you're thrown right back into the original founding, you know, the high days of Cody, Wyoming.

Well, see, Cody, Wyoming is going to send you a thankful email now. I feel like you basically just did a tourism bureau, like commercial for them. Oh, there's more. I don't know if everyone wants to hear it, but it really is like, it's a fun town and it was so cool to see the history of it.

So I had a lot of fun, you know, bringing back the old memories with writing these episodes it's a good time okay well so let me just get a reaction if i may from you two esteemed gents here buffalo bill what what do you make of his obsession with realism, right? With authenticity. And I find fascinating that so many people sign off on the authenticity of his shows, right? Lots of big names, bland people, if I may as well. You know, people that you wouldn't look at and go,

yeah, you're prone to exaggeration. That to me is, I'm not saying that that lends authenticity to what he did. I find it fascinating that so many would sign off though. Yeah. I think that one of the interesting figures that we didn't have an opportunity to go over in these episodes is P.T. Barnum. And he's someone who's often known as a huckster and kind of a- There was a documentary about him recently. A shadier fellow, historically accurate documentary. Yes, yes.

A musical one. Hugh Jackman really just nailed it. I'm sorry. Apparently my sarcasm is not really thick with you two. Let me be very clear that that was not a documentary. I'm sorry, Zach. I'm going to shut up and let you finish your thought now. No, please. Absolutely. But one of the interesting things is that one of the quotes that we found that landed on the cutting room floor in the episode is Buffalo Bill comparing himself to P.T. Barnum. And he says that this is not about Barnum and this isn't about making money,

that this is about showing America what the West is like and showing Europe what the West is like. And so I think that that's what Bill wants to do. The money, I'm sure he definitely appreciated because he made quite a stack. But it is important to know that his big goal was to bring authenticity, was to bring the West to the East, was to show America what was happening on the frontier. It's important to note that Bill didn't seek stardom. He didn't start out seeking stardom. He was found by Ned Buntline, who wrote a dime novel about him while he was in a bar in Nebraska. So it's important to know that Bill isn't originally getting into this as kind of a way to cash in on this image and make money. He really wants to almost like a museum to show

Native Americans as they truly were and to show Rough Riders as they truly were in the West, or at least in the West as he experienced it. It definitely isn't the same experience for African Americans or Chinese Americans building the railroad or Native Americans. But the West, as Bill experienced it, he's trying to bring that as authentically to these audiences as he can. And I think that that's a testament to him. And I think that's one of the reasons why he's pulling crowds of 17, 18, 19,000 people every single show because people crave authenticity. You nailed on the head here, Zach.

So many things, just, I agree. An authenticity of how he experienced, of how he saw it and how so many, frankly, white settlers would have seen and experienced and viewed it. The one curious thing I find about him, I think about, he's got this line he doesn't want to cross. That was clear for me, where things have to be authentic, but he's also got, how do I put this? The world of reality and showmanship blurred in his head. So yes,

he's obsessed with authenticity. And yet at the same time, he's simultaneously showman while still doing things in the West, right? He's doing shows and going out as a scout. And this might precede his launching Buffalo Bill's Wild West. But the fact that he's doing Wild West shows, you know, we mentioned in the episode that he kills yellow hair slash yellow hand,

depending on the translation translation right and that he wore a actual stage costume right out on an army you know again it was a very unexpected moment he didn't know that he was going to end up being in a fight um you know but everything about it even down to his ultimately when both men men draw, both men fire, and Buffalo Bill then chooses to scalp him. And as he, at least according to his story, exclaims, this is the first scalp for Custer. All of this feels to me like somebody who, when he's in the West, is thinking about things he can do that he can then take to the stage.

And so it's undercutting, you know, it's undercutting the authenticity of it without him realizing it's undercutting the authenticity because things he does as a scout, as whatever in the West, he's often doing so, at least in his latter years in these experiences, thinking about being able to tell that story on stage. So it's leading him to make different choices and do different things that are perhaps more exciting than, than otherwise would be that thought. No, I, I, I've had,

I had similar thoughts, similar reaction, because I think if half of the stories and claims about Buffalo Bill are true, the man lived a pretty remarkable life, right? Pretty unique. Yes. And I won't doubt that. I think he did lead a remarkable life because, I mean, to your very point, I'm sure half of them are true. Yeah. Or at least they're all halfway true in either of those ads up to remarkable life.

Yes. So I think the Buffalo bill that i came to kind of know a little bit more throughout this and i mean i'm sure it can be argued otherwise but is there there aren't like massive books written on no yeah no yeah people super me is my humble self i am an expert or no um but uh it seemed to me that, yeah, he lives this unique life, and he loves to tell and show a good story, you know, to show these experiences and what these unique experiences were like to other people. And it's just this big thrill and sense of adventure that I think in many ways causes him to continue to go out and seek more adventure and, you know, cool opportunities. And yeah, he loved the Wild West

life, right? Yes. Absolutely loved it and loved to share it with people because for him, it was this grand adventure that was extremely rewarding in many ways. Yeah. And that was honestly, and I think Ryan, you'd agree, that was probably the most fun part about researching these episodes was all of the different characters that we got to meet. Absolutely. Because Buffalo Bill is, he's the man. If half of those stories are true, then he's one of, he's the world's most interesting man. Yeah.

He is, yes. of the 19th century. But not just him, but Thomas Durant and the Big Four and Sam Bass and Brigham Young and Sitting Bull and Annie Oakley, all of them. Right. These are just larger than life figures. So much fun. And it's, I would say, you know, it's not that these people aren't born today. It's this world that they're inhabiting where the second industrial revolution, the massive and

rapid settlement, the lack of infrastructure, yet sufficient infrastructure for money to be flying around, but not sufficient infrastructure to protect that wealth or secure in a very stabilizing way what society is. To be able to pick up from one town and just head, I mean, think about the Earps brothers for just a second, right? Freaking accused, you know, can't say if Wyatt was guilty or not, but accused of stealing a horse one day and a lawman the next, you don't play those games in modern America.

It's the equivalent of being charged with basically grand theft auto. You couldn't go get charged with grand theft auto in one state. Be like, I'll just go join the police force in another state. That's cool, right? Even Billy the Kid,

who may not have played on both sides of the line, as it were, in the legal world. But, you know, well, looks like I just may have committed manslaughter. Well, let's just go one territory over. That should solve the problem. Right. And it super does for a while. And you have interesting stories that we've talked about where you have someone like Thomas Durant, who is a businessman and is an entrepreneur, and he's using some shady and unethical practices in his business. And on the other hand, you have someone like Sam Bass, who when he does the Big Springs robbery, he won't rob women and I believe it's elderly people as well, right?

Specifically, I think Big Springs is where there was a gentleman who was missing a hand. And yeah, they would not. Yeah, this curious. These moral codes for these people are. Right, because you think, right right you assume someone who's going to spurn the law would spurn other ethical codes or moral codes and yet they do abide to some degree and even that is hit and miss but then that can all get romanticized and they become you know honestly my favorite romanticized figure in all of this, I didn't see this happening, but it's Pearl Hart.

Incredible story. Yeah, I mean, I don't say this to take away from her at all, but like how crazy is it that this woman who's just trying to get back to her mom, right? Like what a crap situation she's in. Her mother's dying. She's so desperate at this point. She's ready to hold up a stagecoach. She fails to rob a stagecoach. That is her entire career as an outlaw, a failed stagecoach robbery. Exactly one, right? Uno, that's it. One and done. She's a freaking dime novel hero through the next century. I just feel like if there's anyone

who kind of embodies the way that the Wild West becomes far larger than reality. You know, it's Pearl Hart. It's not like she asked for it, right? Yeah, I'm sure she wasn't thinking, years from now, these three dudes will be talking about me. Yeah. No, no, no, no. But it's important that that story is included because we think of the Wild West as solely a masculine field that these are these big, strong men out there slinging guns and doing these things. And we have Annie Oakley, who's a better shot than all of them. We have her and Pearl Hart

and some of these wonderful female characters that we met along the way. I know I made this comment in passing in that episode, but I frankly find it just astounding that Buffalo Bill, who was an excellent shot, not taken away from the guy, really. Incredible.

I mean, he got his name, Buffalo Bill, because of the astounding number of Buffalo, the man killed. He, he's a good shot, but do you really call yourself the all round world champion when you're shooting after Annie Oakley? I mean,

little sure shot. Yeah. I read the accounts of her show. I read the accounts of his show. Not bad. Like, okay okay he's good yeah she is god's gift to the uh the sport of shooting yeah absolutely so yeah to your point zach the wild west is simply a far more diverse place than i think many of us often imagine in the 21st century. So I've got to cut my conversation I was having and continue to have with Zach and Ryan at that point.

We simply kept going, and there are so many interesting things to explore, from Buffalo Bill's friendship with Sitting Bull to Frederick Douglass' speech at the Columbian Exposition, but we just don't have time to continue to discuss. So I'm going to cut that off there just to completely level with everyone listening. This is the first epilogue without Josh or Ciel, and I didn't know how this would go. I didn't know exactly how I would move forward. This is just a new experience. So in preparation for the end of this volume, I went ahead and took a crack at the interview game. So I went up to Promontory Summit, being in Utah, that's not too far away, as many of you already know. And I sat down with the lead

park ranger up there, Lucas Hugie. And we kind of did a deep dive discussion on the history of the actual place where the Golden Spike Ceremony happened. So we're going to go to that now. Let me just say thank you to everyone for continuing on this journey through U.S. history with me. I appreciate it more than words can say. And we will continue with the 19th century. I am going to actually remaster just episode one. I'm very curious what that sounds like with Airships Touch. So kind of in a little bit of an experiment. That will be the following episode after this epilogue. But from there, we will just continue on with our march through U.S. history.

So that's what you can look forward to. And all that said, please join me after this short break as I sit down with Park Ranger Lucas Hugie. When Johann Rall received the letter on Christmas Day 1776, he put it away to read later. Maybe he thought it was a season's greeting and wanted to save it for the fireside. But what it actually was, was a warning, delivered to the Hessian colonel, letting him know that General George Washington was crossing the Delaware and would soon attack his forces. The next day, when Rawl lost the Battle of Trenton and died from two colonial Boxing Day musket balls, the letter was found, unopened in his vest pocket. As someone with 15,000 unread emails in his inbox, I feel like there's a

lesson there. Oh well, this is The Constant, a history of getting things wrong. I'm Mark Chrysler. Every episode, we look at the bad ideas, mistakes, and accidents that misshaped our world. Find us at ConstantPodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Ever wondered what it's like to be in the room with top Al-Qaeda terrorists plotting their next move? Do you want to know how the history of Islamic fundamentalist thought informs the way the world works today? Well then, dear listener,

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Subscribe to Conflicted wherever you get your podcasts. And welcome back. So I am now at Promontory Summit, and I am joined by Lucas Hugie, the lead park ranger here. This is a National Park Service location. And Lucas, may I call you Lucas? Oh, please. Do you prefer Park Ranger Hugie? Oh, please, just Lucas.

Okay, well, Lucas, thank you again for allowing me to drop in and chat with you. I'm really excited about this. only has one resource at it. In our case, we have a hole in the ground where a golden spike was once placed. And a historical park has to have multiple resources. So we actually identified other features of historical significance inside the park. And that's how we got changed from historic site to historical park. Okay, so it's an upgrade. It is, a little upgrade in the name.

Very nice. And of course, I'm assuming with the timing there, that has a little something to maybe do with the 150th anniversary. It has everything to do with the 150th. Okay. So in anticipation of the 150th anniversary, the completion of the first transcontinental railroad, they decided to give us a name change, which was very welcome since we have so many resources here at the park. Sure. Well, and we will get into all that. I feel like I'm already starting to jump the gun. I know this is going to be a fun conversation. You said, and maybe this is kind of sticking on what we were just talking about here for a brief few seconds, that the history of this spot,

of this very location that we are at is quite unique and interesting. Care to go ahead and unload on that a bit? Oh, exactly. So this was a agreed-upon location to complete the railroad. Both companies estimated that their track-building crews would be here in the Promontory Summit area in May of 1869. So that's how they settled on this location. However, it's really not convenient for anyone. So May 10, 1869, we complete the Transcontinental Railroad here. We drive the last spike. And for a brief moment in time, this is a railroad hub.

So if you were traveling out with the Union Pacific, you would travel all the way to here. And then the Union Pacific doesn't go any farther west. This is the end of the line for them. So you would then get a ticket with the Central Pacific, get on their train, and keep heading west to California if that's your destination. There's just one problem with that model, and that is that we lack a lot of resources out here that people and locomotives need to just operate. So one newspaper forecasted that this location, that Promontory Summit, was actually going to become the future Chicago of the West, and there were land speculators predicting that we actually going to become the future chicago of the west and there were land speculators

predicting that we were going to have lines branch out from promontory summit and go all around the american west but as i mentioned we are lacking a resource and that resource is water right so we can't have a dry town out here so in uh eventually the central pacific realized that making their passengers essentially use promontory summit as a layover, because this is where you get your connecting flight, or this is where you switch companies. Making them wait out here in the sagebrush with rattlesnakes and no shade and no water isn't a great business model. So in November of 1869, the Central Pacific bought the rights to the rail, rather, from here down to Ogden. And in November of 1869, Ogden became the changeover point because Ogden has great amenities like water. And they also have buildings not made out of canvas, which is a huge, huge advantage.

Well, I can't imagine why you'd want more than canvas. No. I mean, come on. We have a description that a journalist wrote of the town of Promontory, and he mentioned that we're 4,900 feet above sea level here at this location, but he mentioned that religiously we're probably 49,000 feet below the surface of the earth. So that gives you an idea of what kind of town was out here. A hell on wheels, if we may. This was probably one of the last Hell on Wheels town. Yes. Okay.

There was discussion between CP and UP leadership before the Golden Spike ceremony and so forth that Ogden would become a terminus, a hub. Yeah, I know you're spot on about Promontory and all the land speculation and all that. Do you have any idea why there was the speculation and the thought that Promontory would all the land speculation and all that. Do you have any idea why there was the speculation and the thought that Promontory would turn into this Chicago when there was already discussion of Ogden, you know, long before May of that year? The Union Pacific continually changed where they thought they were going to build to. They thought that they were going to build all

the way to the Nevada-California border at one point, and that the Central Pacific would never leave the boundaries of California. But as the Central Pacific got out of the mountains and start building faster, they had to adjust that target. And the Central Pacific also wanted as much track as they could get their hands on. So while both companies may have looked at Ogden initially as a good meeting point. This is the area where they just agreed to finish the railroad and then maybe have an idea later on of where to move that railroad hub. And when this area turned out not to be the Chicago of the West, they quickly had to adjust that plan to have just a more profitable business venture. Well, I just want you to know I find the parking lot here absolutely incredible.

So maybe something will yet grow out here. We actually share a lot with Chicago. They have a national park site and we have a national park site. So we actually have a lot of similarities. Yeah, right there. It seems like this is, it's just waiting to happen still. Clearly, clearly. Okay.

All right. So the hub goes to Og still. Clearly, clearly. Okay. All right. So the hub goes to Ogden. The tent saloons eventually dry up and all the attempts to make a town here. Where do we go from there? How does Promontory? Actually, Promontory stays as a town. So locomotives like they were operating in the 1860s and 70s, they have a max range of around 15 to 30 miles. That's the limitations of steam power. So the locomotives hold about, well, thinking of ours, they hold about 2,800 gallons of water. There's 800 gallons in the boiler and 2,000 gallons in the tender behind the engine.

And that only gets you 15 to 30 miles. So every couple of 15 to 30 miles on the track, you're going to have to have a little town to support the locomotives. If you've ever heard of the term jerkwater town or backwater town, that's actually where the term comes from. Because the first thing an engineer is going to do when he pulls into a town is reach outside the locomotive, jerk on a chain, and out comes a water spout from the water tower to top off the tender on the locomotive. So the town of Promontory became a watering hole for locomotives heading east and west, both directions on the track. And so to have a town like that, you need to have 20 or 30 people out here to maintain the water

tower and maintain the fuel for the locomotives, which is why the town of Promontory continued as a watering station. We actually had enough people here to necessitate a school. Oh, wow. In the end, we had three schools out here. The first two actually burned down. But one of the last buildings here on the site was actually the old schoolhouse, which got moved off the site when the park service took over the property in about 1965.

Okay. Well, Promontory survived a little bit more than I realized. All right. That's interesting. Now, here's a completely nerdy question for you. I'm kind of curious about the supply chain of water. We just established that this place is arid. There's no water.

So here we are servicing trains with water. Is it just being brought in by other trains? Initially it was. For about the first year, it was actually brought in by train. So there's some great photographs in the Hart Collection. He was a photographer for the Central Pacific. And he shows a locomotive with just a bunch of, it looks like big barrels on the back of it. And it's bringing water to these more remote locations that need water to sustain the locomotives. Eventually, about a year later, they figured out where a spring was that's about a mile north of us, and they piped in water from

the spring, and that's where we get our water. Back in 1869, they tried sinking a well out here. They went down 40 feet, 50 feet, 60 feet, 70 feet, which was the limits of the technology at the time, and they couldn't find water. Our well today goes down about 400 feet. So you really have to dig deep to get water here. Well, but now that you've got the well, clearly it's time to be on par with Chicago. I think so. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So basically you took us into the 20th century here, right? The park services taking over, the school getting moved. So what happens with the site from there? How does it start to really come onto the map? So where we start to taper off as a railroading town

is about 1904. And in 1904, they built the Lucerne Cut-Off, which was initially a trestle. Later, it was a causeway that goes right across the Great Salt Lake. As soon as they built that, the town of Promontory started to become a ghost town because the main line for the railroad no longer comes through northern Utah. Finally, 1939, the tracks are officially abandoned, and then in 1942, a call goes out across the country for all unused rail to get pulled up for the war effort. And all 90 miles or so of track in northern Utah, the original promontory line, as it became known, actually got pulled up. So we didn't have any track out here in 1965. Wow. So all the track that we see out there, I mean, we are, what, we're yards away,

as we're having this conversation, yards away from where the final ceremony actually happened. Yes. All that rail, though, none of that then is what was laid by those Chinese and Irish workers, the CP, the UP. This is all replacement. Nope. The only thing behind the visitor center that's original is the actual earth that they made into railroad grade. All of the rails, all the tools, everything else is a replica. However, the interesting thing about our rails is they're all antique rails from the 1880s. That's about the right size, and they're made out of steel. The original 1869 rails would have been iron and they wouldn't have lasted that long. So we have long lasting period correct rails out there at the moment. Okay. So as close as, you know, could be, and clearly given the material difference, they were going to bite the dust

eventually anyway. Okay. Okay. Interesting. So the site itself, as it turns into a ghost town, is basically forgotten by America, right? Yes. By 1942, all the residents of Promontory and all the other little towns up here in northern Utah that service locomotives, they went away because the tracks went away and there's really no reason to live out here unless the trains are coming through. Then finally, in 1916, the Southern Pacific Railroad airs to the Central Pacific. They erect a little monument out here, which is in the front of our visitor center. It's a little obelisk. And I say little, it's about three tons. But they-

It's all relative, Lucas. It's all relative. But they put that out here, and that's the only thing designating this spot as the completion point for the Transcontinental Railroad for a very long time. That just seems crazy to me. I mean, it's such a big, and I realize I'm saying this on the heels of the 150th anniversary, you know, I mean, just so you know, I've got my 150th anniversary socks on. You know, I felt that that was needed for today. So the idea that it's just not cared about, This is a little mind-blowing for someone who lives in Utah. It essentially gets forgotten for a very long time.

Finally, in the late 1940s, there's an interest in the history of the area and in the history of the railroad. It starts in 1947. They actually decide to do an anniversary of the settlers coming to Utah. And it's the 100-year anniversary. So they do a lot of different events, and when I say they, it's the Daughters of Utah Pioneers. Okay. They decide to host a lot of history events to develop an appreciation for the history of Utah, and this is one of the things that they hone in on.

So they actually research what the ceremony would have looked like, kind of a best guess of what happened in 1869. They put it together, and they actually have it down in Salt Lake City in 1947. I believe it was at the Hotel Utah. And of course, it's Daughters of Utah pioneers, so they actually get their husbands, they draft their husbands into the mix and have them perform the reenactment ceremony. And then in the early 50s, someone gets the idea of what if we did that reenactment out here at the last spike site? There's nothing out there anymore, but what if we did it on location? And that starts a tradition.

And Lucas, I'll just say that as you make me more fully aware of just what a completely forgotten location this had become, you know, you'd mentioned before we started recording just a little bit as we were touching base and some things we're going to discuss. I was kind of wondering when you said, oh, down Salt Lake, I thought, well, why would you do the reenactment down that now that makes perfect sense? I mean, who's going to come out to them? This is nothing but sagebrush apart from, apart from the building that we're in and, and the now restored rail, which of course isn't going to be there. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it right after World War II. So, yeah, okay.

That makes a whole lot of sense. I think we need to talk more about how this reenactment works. Let's just take a quick break and then we'll pick right up with that. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to?

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the script and all that jazz, right? Yes. Okay. Enlighten me, sir. So, the history of the reenactment and the park are very intertwined. They really go together. It started with a reenactment, and then we added on the location. And then eventually, in the early 60s, there is some interest in creating a national park site out here. And the person really spearheading that event or that idea is a woman by the name of Bernice Gibbs Anderson. She actually helped out in creating that script. And she wrote tirelessly to the National Park

Service, to senators, to congressmen, to whoever would listen to her, saying that this is a historic event, and there's nothing out there but this obelisk that was put out there in 1916. We have a reenactment. People come to this reenactment. They connect with history. This should really be a National Park Service site. And in the early 60s, she actually came out here with a Park Service historian, Robert Utley. And it was a dirt road out here. And they came out here in January. And they looked at the site, they looked around, the historian agreed that this could be a park site. And then they got stuck in the snow on their way leaving here. And to get out of the snow, the historian stayed in the vehicle,

Robert stayed in the vehicle and operated it. And Bernice Gibbs Anderson had to get out of the snow, the historian stayed in the vehicle. Robert stayed in the vehicle and operated it. And Bernice Gibbs Anderson had to get out and get in the back of the pickup truck to get a little extra traction to get out of here. So it gives you an idea just how forgotten and lonely this place was in the early 60s before the Park Service got a hold of the site. Though you are describing an experience that any of us who live in Utah have certainly been through in time or two. But yes, I think that definitely drives it home. Wow. Okay. So the site is established and where do we go from there? We become a national monument first, and then in anticipation of the 100-year anniversary, so 1969, we get this visitor center. And we actually get two non-running locomotives. They're both older locomotives, and they're mocked up to look like the Jupiter and the number 119.

And we have a 28,000-person event out here for May 10, 1969. 28,000. Two, eight, comma, zero, zero,000. Two eight comma zero zero zero. Yes. You're kidding me. And I know one of them was at least John Wayne. He came out for the event. All right.

I didn't believe it until I saw the photographs, but he did visit this. He was there, huh? Okay. So you have, I mean, geez, the actual ceremony itself back in the 19th century, high estimates are 1,000 people there. That's correct, actually. Yeah, that would be a very high estimate, in fact. 28,000. Okay, all right.

Sorry, I need to kind of take that in. I'm thinking through, you know, as I envision what I imagine it to have looked like, that's mind-boggling. How did the site even accommodate that I mean you don't have seating for no I know there there are seat there's seating out there today was there at the time do you know or am I getting too into the weeds here the seating or the sagebrush to be more appropriate with where we're at no all the photos I've seen

of the event are it's just a sea of people. You look in all directions. They had a stage and they did have some shaded seating, but it's just a sea of humanity out here, all gathered around to watch the reenactment that had been started almost 20 years before. But they came out here to see that moment reenacted. Wow. Well, I'd say everybody's standing around and not necessarily having the best seating.

That's historically accurate. So that's- Yeah, didn't improve on those conditions at all. It was not out of a lack of concern, simply trying to be authentic. Yes. I'm glad you could give that authenticity to John Wayne and company.

I think that's important. Yeah. Okay. So it's, forgive me, I want to make sure I get my National Park Service terminology correct here as I'm bonding with you and the entity itself. So it's a site at this point. Yes. Site. That's the simpler one. You've only got one resource. One resource. Okay. So how do we mature from the 100th year celebration up to the 150th. So we start with a historic site in our visitor center here,

and then eventually we start acquiring land from the railroad itself, because they actually still owned the rail bed out here. And this is the Union Pacific? It would have been the Southern Pacific. Oh, okay. Okay. Right, right, right. You'd gotten at that earlier. I apologize. And so we start looking at other things to expand into. And we have two driving tours. We have the West Auto Tour and the East Auto Tour. And the West Auto Tour is about seven miles long and the East Tour is two. And they converted the old railroad grade into road. So you can drive on the old railroad grade and kind of get an idea of what the construction would have looked like, an idea of their construction techniques. So you're driving on cuts and fills and you see

culverts. And if you look closely in the sides of the rock, you'll see the drill marks that they actually placed in there to drill a hole in the rock, pack it full of black powder and blow out the rock so they can move it. And it's an it's an all hand-built railroad so i always tell visitors to think about just the amount of the manual labor that went into building things like this because they didn't have heavy equipment right and they didn't have nearly as good a high explosives as we do today does that um driving tour i assume that includes the big fill the big fill and the big trestle are on our hiking trail. So that's kind of the third thing we have out here.

Well, I'm not looking to derail. No, no pun intended. I'm serious there, okay? Where you're going. But just as you were talking about this hand-built railroad, I mean, for me, the Big Fill is one of the coolest things out here. Well, I'm going to let you tell it because you know it a little better than I do. Can you describe what's the Big Fill and why should we be in awe at this thing? So the Big Fill, which was built by the Central Pacific and the Big Trestle,

which were built by the Union Pacific, those are the largest engineering projects for the two companies between the two mountain ranges, between the Sierra Nevadas and between the Rockies. This is their biggest hurdle that they have to overcome. And the gulch that they have to get across, it's actually a ravine, it's called Spring Gulch Ravine, they have to get across it. And you have two methods of getting across that. You either fill it full of dirt or you build a trestle, which kind of looks like a big bridge. So the Central Pacific decided to invest the time and the money in building a fill. So they spent two months, they hired 500 men, which were mostly local workers, who brought with them 250 draft animals and carts. And they spent that two months essentially building this big fill one scoop at a time. And it's about 170 feet tall which is also the highest point in florida

so they built a mountain slightly taller than florida which is just impressive to do by hand and that's a good way to put it because of course if you you go and talk here in utah about building a mountain we're going to expect 10 000 feet you know minimum wow though mean, I just couldn't imagine moving that much earth. That is, it's insane. No modern tools. No, no nothing. Nope. It's all done one scoop, one horse cart at a time, all built by hand. The Union Pacific, they built the Big Trestle, which is just to the south of the Big Fill. It's long since gone. We just have the abutments left that would have attached. But they built that in a record 38 days. And it was said that it swayed a little bit when the train

went across it. So you had to be pretty- That's not terrifying, right? You had to be pretty stout to actually ride a train across that. And they had to slow down considerably. So it wasn't in use for very long and then that wood just wasn't going to last right so it's gone but you can still see the big fill now uh tell me if i'm off on this and i i don't know all the details of the lay of the land out here would that be a part of the grading and the building efforts in which the cp and the up are literally building right past each other in their obscene efforts to grab land from one another? That's actually one of the biggest resources we

have here in the park, is we have evidence of that parallel grading that the two companies did 250 miles past each other because Congress hadn't figured out a stopping point yet. Isn't that just crazy? I mean, that is, and we established no modern technology. This is all by hand, just an extra 250 miles. Just a little bit of greed and a little bit of corruption goes a long ways in this industry. Well, when you're talking about Dr. Thomas Durant, I don't know if little is perhaps quite the adjective

we want to go with. Wow. Okay. Okay. Very cool. So if I could shift us once more here, the 19th century train. Now, my listeners have heard not just about the Transcontinental Railroad by this point, but they've also heard about gunslingers and train robberiesies so they've heard a lot about red lanterns you know signaling and whether or not that's a real red lantern or if it's a bandit they've heard mention of a fireman which i explained at least one time it gets a little repetitive if every single time when these stories comes up i'm re-explaining what everyone does it takes away from the narrative you know so could you walk us through that? You got the engineer,

there's the fireman, what all makes this train, you know, makes it go? How's this thing work? So our locomotives are, we have the Jupiter and the number 119. They're replicas of the two that were here on May 10th, 1869. They're American 440 style locomotives. So the first four is for the four guiding wheels. The second four is for the four driving wheels. And then both of these locomotives lack trailing wheels. So that's where you get 440. Okay. The both companies used lots and lots of 440 and 460 locomotives. If you look at their rosters for what they had in use at the time, those are the workhorses of their companies. And that's because they're kind of a jack-of-all-trades. They can pull a fair load. They can go a decent speed. They have a good range. They're able to use those

locomotives fairly efficiently. So with our locomotives, they have three sections, starting in the back. So if you can imagine yourself in the cab of the locomotive, on the floor of the cab is a hatch that opens up into the firebox. And that is, if you think of a movie where a fireman is shoveling coal or throwing wood into the locomotive, that's what he's doing. He's opening up that hatch, that firebox, and throwing coal and wood to get the fire going. So you have the firebox. It's creating lots of heat and lots of smoke. And then next up is going to be the boiler, which is 800 gallons of water. And to get the heat and the smoke from the firebox through

the boiler into the third section, which is the smoke box, it's going to go through the boiler tubes. So there's 166 boiler tubes inside of our boiler. They're about two inches in diameter. And that heat and smoke is just going to go through the tubes into the smoke box. And then the smoke box on top of it has the smokestack, and the smoke is going to go out that smokestack. The pressure that builds up in the boiler is eventually going to accumulate in the steam dome, which is the big brass dome on the back of the locomotive. The steam dome, most people realize it has the whistle in it because that is where the sound's coming from, but it also has a

throttle in it. We've all seen that iconically on a Western, right? It also has a throttle in it that the engineer controls, and he controls how much steam goes through the system, kind of regulates the pressure. The pressure then goes along the top of the locomotive through an internal pipe you can't see called the dry pipe, and then it drops down to the two cylinders that are in the front of the locomotive. Now, before it hits the cylinders, there's a box on top of those cylinders called the steam chest, and it looks like a big brass box, but inside there's a box on top of those cylinders called the steam chest, and it looks like a big brass box. But inside is a slide valve, and it slides back and forth, and it'll put pressure on either side of that cylinder.

So I put pressure on one side of the cylinder. It moves a piston in that cylinder back or forward, and then it vents that pressure into the smoke box and out the smokestack. It'll then put pressure on the other side of the cylinder, push the cylinder the opposite direction. And as you're moving that piston back and forth, it's moving the drivers, which are attached to the drive wheels. And that's how the locomotive is going to be moving forward. Okay. The other cool thing with it is since smoke and heat don't want to go horizontal, they want to go vertical, or the smoke wants to move vertically. By venting the pressure from the cylinders to the smoke box, you're creating a positive pressure in there.

And then it's going to go out the smoke stack and create a negative pressure inside the smoke box, which is going to pull that smoke and the heat through the boiler into the smoke box. So essentially, you're able to stoke the firebox as you're running the locomotive. So bare minimum, you probably do need two people to run this thing. You'll have the engineer who's essentially the driver and the fireman who is not in charge of putting fires out. He's more interested in starting fires. That's kind of a different concept of our idea of fireman today, huh? And then he's the one operating the boiler. He's making sure the boiler has the pressure and the steam

to meet the demands of the engineer and the locomotive. Okay. Well, let me lob one more, at least one more question at you here, Lucas. So my listeners are interested in history. It's not a hard sell for them, but big question here. Why should people care about the transcontinental railroad and about, you know,

the golden spike? If I imagine you have to get someone who asks you this sort of thing, right? It's, I don't know that the dour family member that's been dragged on that vacation to this location. And you can see the withdrawal in their face as their smartphone doesn't really work that well out here and they can't scroll through social media. So they're actually stuck listening. How do you articulate that to somebody to kind of point out that this is actually pretty awesome stuff? My favorite way to explain this to the lay person, to the average visitor, is to talk in terms that they understand. And so everybody understands time and money. Before the completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, it took about four, maybe as much as six months

to get from one side of the country to the other. And you're looking at a cost of $1,000 to $1,200 to do that. After they completed the railroad... And to be clear, 19 century yes currency yes so put that in uh in 21st century dollars and that's that's uh there's a reason why you're selling the farm and moving out west yeah it's a mortgage yeah you gotta sell the entire farm and everything you own except for a wagon right but then after they completed the railroad you're looking at a transit time of around 10 days to get from coast to coast.

And the cost is initially going to be a little over $160. You know, when faced the option of six months and $1,200 or 10 days and $160 ahead, most people agree. Like, wow, that really opened things up very, very quickly. Yeah. Okay, that's pretty succinct. That a well put all right well lucas anything else you think that we haven't covered or discussed about whether it's the locomotive the site the union pacific the central pacific anything else you think people just definitely need to know it's uh it's kind of interesting to note how you know we're a happy National Park site. Like, I get to come to work. Oh, there's sad ones. Well, let's see.

Flight 93. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. Point taken. Lots in there. But anyway, I get to come to work, and I get to have a party that's over 150 years old. And that's what I get to tell people about, is I get to tell people about this event that we all came together. We did, we had this just a very, very

American moment where we have a lot of teamwork. We have a huge engineering project that people thought was impossible, like say the moon landing, which happened a hundred years later after this. We have this project that people came together, worked on, accomplished it. We have this great goal, but we also have this story and this narrative of things that are also very American. We have this little story of kind of a little bit of greed and the two companies building past each other. We also have this random spot on the map that turned out just to be a compromise, but they had to fix it eventually. And then the other story I always love to tell people is the date of the ceremony was actually not supposed to be May 10th.

It was May 8th. And the reason for the delay is the Union Pacific, they were delayed a few days. Dr. Durant, of course, got kidnapped in Wyoming momentarily. As one does. For not paying his workers. And then there was a bridge that— Again, just so out of character for thomas durant yeah uh and then there's a bridge in weber canyon by devil slide that had

been damaged by a flood and so he got delayed there again and then you actually have the day of the ceremony you have the uh two locomotives that were actually supposed to be here the original locomotive the central pacific wanted was the Antelope and it got into a wreck over the Sierra Nevada Mountains, unfortunately. And then you have the number 119, which is a locomotive that was actually based out of Ogden that just happened to pull the boss here to the ceremony.

And the last thing I always highlight to people is we actually are flying the wrong flag at the flagpole by the last spike site. We're flying a 20-star flag and the reason for that is we had a uh on may 10th 1869 about a thousand people here no one remembered to bring a flag to fly over the ceremony and lucky it was just like wow okay the one thing you're gonna forget so now i realized that many many of the military men were just kind of passing through.

It's not like they were really planned to be here in a very long duration sort of way. But you've got a military regiment passing through and no one was thinking flag, huh? So you have the 21st Infantry. They're passing through. Their band is the one that actually plays here at the ceremony. They and a ward from Ogden, right? Yes. Okay.

But lucky for us, there's a soldier with the 21st Infantry who sees that we have a telegraph pole right next to the last spike site, and we've erected a flagpole on it. And he says, well, I got something for you. So he pulls out of his pack a 20-star flag and lends it to the ceremony that day. And we haven't had 20 states since 1819. So he has a 50-year-old family heirloom that he lets us have for the day so we can have something red, white, and blue flying over the last spike site. Oh, that's awesome. And it's just, it all comes together as this just American moment of, this is a random location, two random locomotives, wrong day, wrong flag, but we made it happen. And that's kind of, that's a great story for Golden Spike.

I love that. I am so glad we got that in there. Oh my goodness. Lucas, thank you so much. Clearly, you know how to tell a good story. And this is a very cool site. If someone wants to come visit here, we've got people listening here locally and around the country who I'm sure are the types who like to visit a national park. We're open daily or? We're open year round. In the winter, we occasionally close on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, just because our winter visitation isn't that much. But the best time to visit the park is actually May through September. That's when we have our locomotives out. So if you want to get an idea of what this place would have looked like 150 years ago, come out when we're running our locomotives. And one of the greatest things about our park is we haven't really had any

development around us. So when you look at the landscape, the mountains, the sagebrush, usually not rattlesnakes, but when you look at all of that, it looks the same as it did 150 years ago, which is really just a great viewshed for us. And we're very fortunate to have that. No kidding. All right. Well, Lucas, I just want to say thank you once more. And I would encourage everyone listening, if you're passing through Utah, if you're here and you haven't made it to visit Promontory Summit, not to be confused with Promontory Point, which I find a lot of people often do. I mean, I suppose if you put that in your GPS, it's kind of close.

It's about 30 miles to the south of us. Yeah, it is. It's the actual, I mean, you will see the Great Salt Lake, so there's that. You will. But by all means, I would absolutely encourage people to visit. I'm sure I'll be back here soon enough with my kids. So, Lucas, thanks again. No problem.

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