History That Doesn't Suck - 94: Epilogue to Gilded Age Part I (or Gilded Age interlude w/ Significant HTDS Updates)

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

An epilogue. Or interlude? Well, we aren’t done with the Gilded Age, but we have too much behind-the-scenes HTDS evolution to discuss! So here we are. Zach is moving up from intern to writer status. Longtime HTDS team member Kelsi gets behind the mic for the first time. Meanwhile, Greg discusses doing a second edition of older episodes.  But of course, we won’t ignore the Gilded Age. We’ll still have some good old-fashioned chit-chat about recent episodes. ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What did it take to survive an ancient siege? Why was the cult of Dionysus behind so many slave revolts in ancient Rome? What's the tragic history and mythology behind Japan's most haunted ancient forest? We're Jen and Jenny from Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy, perspective. Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. From the creators of the popular science show with millions of YouTube subscribers comes the MinuteEarth podcast. Every episode of the show dives deep into a science question you

might not even know you had, but once you hear the answer, you'll want to share it with everyone you know. Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story. Today, however, I'm pleased to share an interview with a special guest versus my normal storytelling. Regular listeners of HTDS know that we do this occasionally to recap and give some broader context of an era explored over a series of preceding narrative episodes.

If you're new to HTDS, welcome, and you may want to jump back a couple of episodes to hear the stories leading up to this epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I am your professor, Greg Jackson. We've got a few things to dig into here today. First off, well, we always got one little correction, so we'll hit that. But beyond that, I want you to meet what the more permanent structure of the team is in the post Josh Ciel era. I want to talk to you a little bit about some remastering of some old episodes. You got a little taste of that within these last few, and we're going to do a little bit more of that. So I'll explain what that may look like. And of course, we need to talk about the Gilded Age and how it's far more exciting than I think many people perhaps realized or thought. All that here today. First off, though, Kelsey and Zach, please say hello. Let everybody know it's not just me here.

Hey, y'all. Hi, everyone. There we go. And Kelsey, hey, y'all. So the Texan husband is rubbing off on you. Yes, unfortunately. Unfortunately. No, fortunately. I do love Texas. Okay.

Okay. Now his family won't disown you. Glad you slid that in there. We have so many Texas things in our house. I can't hate it. All right. All right. Perfect.

And Zach, welcome back, sir. This is round two for you. Glad to be back. Glad to have you back. Wouldn't rather be anywhere else tonight. That felt sarcastic, but that's okay. We'll get to all that. Let's start with the correction, though. Let's just rip that bandaid off, and then we'll chat more about what each of you were doing at this point. So, episode number 91, our first Gilded Age episode, I had a little faux pas in my speech.

I had the right word in front of me and I misread the frigging word. These things happen. But we had a speech by Carl Schurz. For those of you who may recall, he's making Chester Arthur, our boy Chet, feel a little awkward about, you know, the whole corrupt way in which the spoils system works and how it's certainly hooked him up. All that said, my word, I said indignant. That's what I said. I said indignant. The word was indigent. And thank you to Aaron in New York. That has been fixed.

We re-recorded that one sentence, sent that off to our dear friends at Airship, re-uploaded the episode. So if you were to download it anew, if this is truly that important to you, you can do so. It's that important to, as you can see, me, my perfectionist self.

And yet we missed it three times. You know, I have had to make peace with the fact that, I mean, I find these things in peer-reviewed books, you know, and of course there's an added layer in that I don't have to just make sure that it's written correctly, but then I have to read it correctly. And sometimes your brain does funny things to you. It really does. And when you think about,

there are well over half a million words of history that doesn't suck at this point with the number of episodes out there. Think about the average episode being ballpark 8,000 words. Some are more than that. Some are shorter, but that's kind of on point. I mean, yeah, that's a lot of words and plenty of opportunity for a little slip of the tongue. Usually we catch them. I mean, there's just so many eyes going over

all through the whole process. Ears in this case. Yes. Yes. Well, I'm thinking eyes on the script, but yes, ears. Well put, Kelsey. Well done. And I mean, my thanks to Airship. They'll catch stuff where they come back and say, hey, Greg, you mispronounced that word or you, you know, and in fact, you know, that's part of where that has even dropped off. Just this growing from simply being something that was really done. You know, Josh and I initially see L on board quickly thereafter, but in the basement, the three of us and just having more. It's so crucial. It's so helpful. And I think that one of the pluses to that is not just the eyes here behind the scenes, me and Kelsey and some of the other researchers and Airship and you, but also the community. The HTDS has grown like a good enough community that people are able to notice these things and help us improve and help us become better. And so there's just a gratitude that we feel in moments like that. There's a slap on the face and, oh, how did I say that word and not this word? Or how did I pronounce that

incorrectly? But there's also an appreciation for the fans out there who are able to, able and willing to reach out and say, hey, you messed this up. We want you to be better and we can work on improving. So. Yeah, no, truly. I very much appreciate that. I mean, there are, I would also say, I mean, so many of these corrections, right, are mispronunciations. It's, you know, not, this is actually, I suppose, one of the more meaningful ones. It was, I actually said the wrong word, meaningful. You know what I mean? Like changed the meaning as opposed to like, ah, that was a long A, not a short A. You said that kind of funny.

Yeah. But, you know, that's important to people. And the way that it's heard, it impacts the way that language continues to evolve. And it's been really useful to hear from people. I mean, you know, at this point, if you're emailing me about an episode three years old, you might be a little late to the show. But just having people get that on my radar that, oh, my goodness, you know, yeah, that's how is this pronounced in this state? And frankly, so many words that I just wouldn't have even thought to have looked up. Yeah, because they're pronounced completely different than what you would think that they're supposed to be to our Western ears. Precisely that. So, you know, I mean, it's obviously I've also had to just make peace with the fact that, you know, I'm not going to pronounce every single river and brook and creek and other things that aren't bodies of water in the exact same way that a local does.

And, hey, that's, you know, that's just going to have to be how it is. But to my perfectionist nature, it's been really helpful. And I've loved from Patreon to the Facebook group in particular, these communities that we've got now where sometimes I'm in the middle of a record, I hit pause, I realized, oh my goodness, this word could be different than what

I think it is. I just hop onto those two platforms. Those are where I found I get really quick responses. And I'll say, hey, is there a Missourian here? Is there a New Yorker or whatever it might be? And sure enough, usually there. We did that recently with the location. We talked about Madison Square versus Madison Square Garden and people immediately jumped on it. And that was super helpful for that episode. And shout out to Jose in New York. He in particular, man, we messaged back and forth a number of times and getting into the nitty gritties of the exact year that things evolved there. So yeah, great example, Zach. And thank you. Anyhow, okay, enough on that. Let's talk more about what the two of you are doing at this point. Yeah?

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, all right. So Kelsey, this is your first time behind the mic. Second for, Zach is basically just a veteran at this point. Yeah. Yeah, he's an old hand at this. I'm an experienced veteran here.

Yeah, and that's definitely how you're feeling. Exactly. Yeah, sure. But Kelsey, you actually are in fact the old HTDS veteran. Yeah. Even if you haven't been behind the mic before, you've been with us two and a half years. Two and a half frigging years. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So it'siding very comfortably in the shadows for that. And you love that I coaxed and talked to you into getting onto the mic tonight, right? I was so excited about it. You are so welcome for this.

Yeah. I'm not scared at all. And why would you be? I couldn't even fathom. Kelsey, I mean, thank you. You've handled, I mean, just handling social media, first of all, which is what you initially did. Yeah, that's what I started doing. And you've done, I think, a great job with it. I've enjoyed what you've done.

It's definitely been a skill that I didn't think I would ever acquire. And look at it. I mean, it's still not my strongest thing, but I've definitely improved a lot in the last two and a half years. I very much appreciate the memes. I'll say that. Thank you. I've gotten really good at creating those lately. They're wonderful.

Those are fun. Those are, yes. They've given me a good chuckle on many a Friday. It's the best day of the week. So you've done that and you've handled more correspondence than I think we could shake a stick at. Yeah. Typically, if I don't want to let people peek behind the curtain too much, but typically the responses on social media are me. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm always happy to jump in.

Yes. Yeah. There's something a little more technical or a little more specific than I usually hand that off to you. But I mean, thank you. That's all part of what helps keep the time for me to be writing. Because we want to be responsive. I want to be responsive. And there's just so many hours in the day. But now we've, I feel like I'm talking for you. Kelsey, what are you doing at this point? You go ahead. I'm going to pull your shyness out. We're going to do this. I don't know how I feel about this.

No, no, you've got it. You got it. Just brag a little. Anytime people say, ask me what I do, I just say anything that Greg doesn't want to do. I'll get texts and calls and he'll be like, hey, so do you want to handle this for me? And I'll say, you know, sure. That is the, have you said that to me before? That is the best.

I don't know how I feel about that description, but it's probably pretty good. Somewhere on Kelsey's resume is just a line description of the job that says. It's dealing with Greg's crap. Dealing with Greg. Yeah. Yeah. Dealing with Greg.

And somewhere there's someone who will be like, that is a tall order. Oh, I know. When can you start? Bringing you to the top of the pay scale. Yeah. So a million thank yous to you. And I hope that being behind the mic isn't too terrifying. I'd love to have you.

It would be more terrifying if I was looking at more people. So this is actually a lot better than- You're among friends here. Getting up in front of people and talking, that's more scary. So you would not have wanted to jump on stage with me? Oh, no. I was very happy just sitting off to the side. Well, and again, thank you.

I mean, that's another example of what you've done. We did that live episode. Yeah, the live episode. And you were there making the magic happen, making airships. Sound come to life. Exactly. Yep. Well, and then Zach, sir.

Here I am. Here you are, round two behind the mic and more grown up in the HTDS sense, right? In an HTDS sense. I'm still as immature as I've always been generally, but in this specific sense. That's always been pretty obvious, I think. Absolutely.

Your mom's still listening. Hi, mom. How are you? That might turn into a running gag. But at least she knows. We have a whole cast of characters at HTDS, and one of the premiere is Zach's mom, who listens. Zach's mom, yes, who listens. That's a respectful Zach's mom.

We appreciate her. Zach, you did a fantastic job as an intern. And one of the struggles, well, those of you who've been listening to HGDS for the long haul, you knew Josh and you knew CL. And both of them, when they departed. Our dearly departed friends. They're both doing great. They're healthy and still alive. Yeah, thank you, Kelsey. Wow, I sound so morbid there. Okay,

all that said, when Josh and Ciel left, I mean, both of them, you know, at their separate moments, they were both very conscientious of saying, hey, you know, the last thing I want to do is inadvertently collapse this thing, right? The Jenga tower, if you will, as the three of us balanced and held things together and, you know, with very little sleep and whatnot.

You know, Josh slid out, airship slid in. That was actually, I think, as seamless as it could get. And CL, you know, she and I had discussed, you know, what's the best way to move forward? I literally do not have the hours in the day. I mean, that was always the thing. I would love to research and write every single word of every single episode in a perfect world. I just needed to be about 36 hours in every day, and then I could keep up the schedule. And I'm not content to becoming a monthly podcast. I think that's one of the great injustices in the world is that a day is only 24 hours long.

It really is. We could, and you didn't want to become just a monthly podcast. And we also didn't want the quality of the podcast to- That I will, and that's what I would do first, right? Like I will slow down episodes before I will compensate, compensate. See I would do first, right? Like, I will slow down episodes before I will compensate. Compensate.

See, this is... Compromise. Compromise. Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing that led to the correction in episode 91. Yep. Before I'm going to compromise

the quality, the rigor, I... Well, because the whole point, right, is to make this legitimate history. I believe legit is the way i legit sorry no i haven't learned greg's voice yet yeah not at all yeah that's um that is that's the whole point and it's it's what keeps me going is making sure that that's what i'm producing so i would slow it down first but man that's the last thing

I want to do. I, well, frankly, enough of you have sent me messages asking when we're going to get up to weekly. I also don't think that's what everyone else wants. So, you know, CL, her absolutely crucial, you know, researching skills and then stepping in to write as well. And we tag-teamed those episodes together. We fell into a great groove. She graduated, she moved on to other things. Happy for her. But of course, you know, when she's like, yeah, I'm going to move on, like, oh, awesome for you. Now what? Yeah, yeah. No, there was totally this like, okay, okay. I mean, of course,

you do what's best for you. I would never want to do otherwise. But yeah, we definitely had some discussions about just how do we turn this corner? And so we came up with the intern program. Yeah. Team. And that has been, we got some great people. We did.

We did. I've been, I was really impressed with the quality of people that we were able to. Apart from Zach. Yeah. They were. from Zach. Yeah. They were. That guy. Right. I remember thinking, why did he hire that one?

I know. I know. Yikes. Yeah. That's definitely why he's in the room right now. Yeah. So, you know, they were phenomenal. I'm saying that like. Like they've all departed too. Yes. Like they've all departed.

There was a tragic accident at htds headquarters because there's a headquarters this is great wow we're really growing you didn't know about it no your name's on the lease good good what else is my name it's better you not know good kelsey great so all that to say um what i did find is that as brilliant and capable as all these teams were it didn't add up to the same effect to have a whole bunch of interns trying to essentially we're doing other things together busy with school who are busy with work i mean yeah there's some of that but also just getting as deep into it you know what i've got is a team of great interns that are all getting about a foot deep and what i need is to get 10 feet deep and you know that's where zach you being particularly stellar, everyone did well.

You did truly exceptional, as did a few others. Why do I keep going past tens? Some of them are still doing this. I mean, yeah, we've lost a few of them, but they've just moved on to different things. I'm just realizing how many of these death references we can have. Now I'm sure they don't really, we just got that stuck in our heads now. Now it feels that way.

Yeah. So I just realized, you know, and it's still useful. So we do still have Will's amazing. He's still with us. He is still with us. Yeah.

We've lost Mason. Alas. Very close to Taylor. So the team's kind of shrunk a bit. And I think that's good. That's fine. We're going to continue to have interns. So, you know, maybe we'll still get some other people behind the mic on occasion for an epilogue.

If Kelsey's like, please, dear God, never let this happen again. Kelsey, I think you're doing great. Well, that's good. Wonderful job. Because I am not shaking at all. Hey, I'm you're doing great. Well, that's good. Wonderful job. Because I am not shaking at all. Hey, I'm not noticing it much. Zach, you are holding the table down, right? We appreciate that. Kelsey, I will say this as the expert who has been behind the mic once before.

You're doing a great job. That's right. So it's fun and exciting, honestly, to have history internships. So I'm enjoying doing that. Zach, Kelsey? Yeah, I mean, I didn't have to do one for my undergrad, which I was pretty thankful for, because I feel like it's hard to find them, right?

And to find good ones that aren't just like, oh, you're a history major, so you know how to write things. Right. Right, like. So here's this thing that you're going to copy out over and over and over again. Yeah. You kind of wrote, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's not like history exactly it's just you have this writing skill and we need a writing skill right right yeah it's not history specific yeah uh so all that to say zach i'm glad to have you going 10 feet deep with me and we'll still have some awesome interns to help us on the periphery. You get to go deep with me. Each episode, helping research, helping with anything you need. So that's where we're at.

That is, this is kind of, I guess, phase two, I suppose, as I did not appreciate that HTDS when I started this thing. I had no idea what I was buying off. That is just painfully evidently clear. I feel like you say that to me every time we talk about something. I know, I know. The hours of my life. And I don't know that I, like, I mean, we kind of,

well, I'll save this a little bit for when we want to talk about the Gilded Age itself, but I did not quite appreciate how many, I knew this would take years. I didn't realize how many years, but let's save that discussion. We're going to talk about these remasters.

Yeah. Right? This second edition stuff. Let's get a quick little break here and then we'll come back and we'll talk about remastering some of the older episodes. So hang tight if that interests you. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money? Well, I've got the podcast for you. I'm Sean Piles, and I host NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast.

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to answer your real-world money questions and get insights that can help you make the smartest financial decisions for your life. Listen to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your life. Listen to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. All right, welcome back. So in this last, I mean, it's not really a full volume yet. No, I mean, it's been enough episodes for it to be like a short one. Yeah. You know, because we've done five episodes since the last epilogue. It's the Gilded Age part one. No, I mean, it's been enough episodes for it to be like a short one. You know, because we've done five episodes

since the last epilogue. It's the Gilded Age part one. Yeah, we'll call this the interlude maybe, not so much an epilogue. Yeah, so a discussion that I've had ongoing, though, with I actually started with Lindsay over at Airship, then I took it to, well,

to you fine folk here with me, and to our dear good friends and supporters over at Patreon, has been revisiting the earlier episodes and coming at them for a second take. Yeah. Not like fully redoing them, just adding in a little bit of airship sound and changing your wording a little bit. To lay out the philosophy here, my thoughts. Coming up on four years. I mean, it won't be four years until-

October. Yep, October. Look at that. Kelsey, you know HTVS's birthday. I do. I don't know the exact day though. I'm not that good yet. It's okay.

I'll get there. Yeah, well, you're gonna need to look that up now. I'll go study my flashcards when I get home. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. The HTDS flashcards. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you have the Josh and CL cards? Those trade for a premium now. Yeah. That's good. Zach cards are the first in every pack and they're not worth the paper they're printed on. Right next to the gum. Exactly. I feel like this is a baseball card reference that I just don't get.

Yeah, we just went from flashcards to 1990s baseball card collecting. Oh, gosh. Okay, all that to say, four years into this, I've just learned a lot. That's what happens when you do something, right? Over and over and over again. I mean, it's thousands of hours of my life later. I am so pleased with and happy with the work and effort that went into those early episodes. I also am keenly aware of everything from, you know, some very specific mispronunciations. I get it, Mobile.

I'm so clear on it. It's Mobile, Alabama. I got it. So some of those most iconic, I'm not even going to say it, but, you know, that one place in Oregon, because I'm going to check with one of my friends again from Oregon before I will say that one. I don't want to say, I feel like I would say it wrong.

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to say it wrong. I'm just, nope, nope, not right now. And look, obviously, frankly, as important as those things are to get right, and I strive to get it right. And everybody who's been listening to this thing for years or has been binging it knows that. It's, I want to get those local sounds correct. But I've learned how to take my academic writing into a podcast modality, I think, a bit more. And when I look at those early episodes,

one, I see better how to do that. I so love the history of the American Revolution and all of US history, but these are stories that as I look at them, I go, man, if only I had that expertise, you know. Back then. Yes. Yes. And being able to fit more into the episodes i've noticed that when i listen back to them i i realized oh i could have i could have fit a little bit more yeah i could have gotten more primary source here i could and for me this is a podcast i get that i don't necessarily think of this traditionally as a podcast for me and you know that

this is what happens when an academic who's been trained to research and write articles and books I guess decides to go into the podcast medium if I were to write a book and that's how I've always approached history that doesn't suck I've treated it as a book in many ways you know you'd have second editions when something needs uh well i mean whether it's an update or you find that there is an error right yeah or you find a little piece of information that you didn't have before right like how to pronounce mobile yeah absolutely in one of the most recent remasters in episode one, I remember sitting across the desk from you and for hours going over sources about how many slaves were on Mount Vernon when George Washington was young. And that took a long time and a lot of

manpower and a lot of man hours to figure out just how many there were. And that's something that we may have just not paid as much attention to earlier on. In fact, and I can, I'll speak exactly to that. So, um, this is Gus, George Washington's father, Gus Washington, and Thomas Flexner, who was basically the God of George Washington. I'm, Hey, save the emails about Ron Chernow.ow he's great all right nothing but respect and love to the man phenomenal biography thomas flexner he literally wrote the book on washington the multi-volume the books yeah the multi-volume so so you need to know that if you look at churnow and you think wow that's a long that's a long book that's a long book. That's a dense book. That is, that is the reader's digest version of what Thomas Flexner did in terms of biographies. Now, Thomas Flexner also has a more digestible, shorter biography.

Which I totally have on my bookshelf now, thanks to you. You're welcome. It's a great read. But, you know, yeah, he's also got the, wow, I've just gone into such a space of niche nerddom. I hope people are enjoying this. But Thomas Flexner mentioned there being 20 enslaved people. And in fact, on his, it wasn't as specific as I would have liked. And that's the number that I used in episode one. I mean that this is a very rigorous source however as we were going back through things right digging deeper into the sources that flexner used and then trying to find further verification elsewhere i mean this is the sort of yeah yeah. Rigorous research process that we're going through. Right. I want people to be able to, you know, I just want everything absolutely perfect. I don't see why this is a problem.

Well, you want people to know that when they're listening to it, all of it is legitimate. Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not like standards were low the first time around by any means. No, but. Just having learned how to do this better. Because in an academic paper, I can put footnotes.

I can bury... Well, I'm not trying to bury information, but there's a different... You can put little sidebars of things. Like this is something I am not going to put in the main body of the text, but it's something that's still interesting to know. Exactly. And so I've learned better how to work those sorts of things in, those sorts of nuances than I could initially.

So, you know, now we can look at that and see, okay, so depending on framing, you know, where Flexner actually got that number from, I'm not entirely sure why he went with that and the way that he worded it as he did. It looks like 50 is probably the better number, right? As we were pouring over primary sources. So we hit that with more of a spread, if I remember correctly. I think we said probably, and we've thrown a qualifier or up to 50, something to that effect. So, I mean-

To make sure we weren't definitively saying something that may or may not have been true. Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, yeah, I could understand if some people are going, Greg, that is just over the top ridiculous and you need a life. And you're right that I need a life. But I mean, I guess like this kind of is my life. I just like seriously deeply, I want to get it right in every single respect and regard. And I think that that's what people appreciate about it, right? Like that's why people listen is because they know that you're not just making stuff up i'm not good grief of mine sometimes we'd like to but i think sometimes

you guys would like me to greg stop do not do not ask me for another source verifying this just say three sources said it was okay i don't care if you've got a fork that disagrees. Three trumps one. So there are a few things like that, down to the pronunciations, even on some of the accents, frankly, I very much embraced. I had my questioning phase as I concerned about sensitivities.

And I know that there's plenty of things to be sensitive to there and realizing how I can to be sensitive to there and realizing how I can be more sensitive to that, but also being able to go back through some of these and really get them right. I mean, because now I've got my dear friend, Lucy in Tennessee, who can help me get Andrew Jackson right and so on and so forth. So yeah, I'm being a bit of a perfectionist, but... What else is new?

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. I have come to embrace who I am. Something else that I want to add, though, is that, look, if anyone's listening to this

and going, oh my gosh, how can you do this? I love the originals. All good. It's not like these are going to be banished. Yeah, they're not going away.

Yeah. Let's see, you know, how much energy I have to do this on top of regular releases. banished. Yeah, they're not going away. Yeah. Let's see, you know, how much energy I have to do this on top of regular releases. Everything else. Yeah. So it's not like next, you know, tomorrow, boom,

you're going to turn around and like 50 episodes have been remastered. Or, you know, second edition, as again, I like that term better. But this will be, you know, a work in progress. I think it will release at least some of them maybe as the recent episode in part because frankly zach and i kelsey we always need

that time to make sure that we're we're getting it right so it's a way to continue to give that bi-weekly that you want to but also to make sure that we're- And keep the rigor up. Yeah. So, you know, when there's one, I'm like, man, you know, I ended up rewriting 3,000 words of this. Sure, you know, 5,000 of them. Like episode one, that is a great example. You know, the original episode one was about 8,000 words. The second edition one is 10,500 words. It is the longest episode to date, or at least tied for it, I believe, with one of the transcontinental railroad episodes gotten better useless information glad i oh um all that to say i mean i was really pleased and happy to release that as the episode so much time and effort had

gone into it and there's so it was basically director's cut right like in the way that it had watching the lord of the Rings extended editions. Wait, is that a good thing or bad thing? It's a good thing. Okay. Okay. I mean,

I feel like there's going to be strong feelings. All right. And so we know where you land on this, Kelsey. We do. It's a major compliment, I would say. Okay.

Oh, well, thank you, sir. All right. All right. Good. Good.

So one last thing that I do want to just say on, on the whole remaster bit and um i'm not quite sure what the model looks like i do know that uh aaron manky manky who does the podcast lore no okay i'm showing my age that is i've i've seen it on my app but i haven't had a chance to listen it looks really interesting he's doing a similar thing where he's looked back and go, man, you know, these early episodes when people kind of decide, you know, they'll listen to episode one, two or whatever and decide they like it or they don't. Right. And so he's gone back and remastered. He's remastering some of his earlier stuff.

All I'm saying is there is some precedent, I guess. But as he's doing, this is where the connection came in. He's going to make sure that the old versions are still there because people enjoy those old versions well that's something that we when we floated the idea of doing this that was something that was very clear that people wanted to make sure we had the original sound i i do think that there was a bit of terror among yeah i think they were worried we were just going to cut it all out and replace it completely. And I'm so look, I'm honored that that was the reaction as much as I might, you know, see reasons for wanting to do a second take. That makes me happy.

So we're going to keep them there. I don't know if this is like a alternate every other, you know, like original episode one. And right next to it, we have second edition and continuing on. Or if we're going to move the originals over to the YouTube channel that is so grossly neglected and that we do so little with. We have a lot of them over there already.

We do, we do. Not, definitely not. No, not all of them. Even close to all of them. Yeah, we had this brief moment of energy. Were you here yet, Kelsey? Did that predate you? I think I was here towards the end of that.

Okay. Definitely predated me. It did, Zach. I do remember that part of my job initially was to help Josh with that, and that kind of didn't happen. It departed, if you will. It departed. It departed.

But that one did die unlike everything else that we've joked about so you know maybe that's the answer but that is something that is going to i mean this is frankly it's kind of become a major part of my life's work like you don't want them to go away forever yeah it's fun to look i think think, look back on those things and say, this is how I've grown and before I spoke to anyone at Patreon. When Lindsay and I first even broached this idea, the first thing I did is called up Josh because to do anything with these where so much of CL's contributions, that's not really gonna be-

Yeah, it's not like you're changing all of the things that CL put in. Right, so that in many ways stays put. Even if I do tweak some words here and there, I mean, that's not going to be a major deal. But my first thought was, obviously Josh isn't here to do it a second time for me. He's moved on. It's got to be with Airship. And I don't see that as a bad thing.

Just saying it's got to be with airship and i don't see that as a bad thing just saying it's got to be there isn't an option josh doesn't have the time in his life to yeah i'm going to do this with the original sound even but yeah i went to josh and said hey man how do you feel about this because the last thing i want to do is you know yeah make him feel like you didn't appreciate what he did for you words fail to articulate my appreciation for josh and he was just jazzed he said dude hey anything that you think makes you know in true josh fashion yeah i mean that's just josh right like no ego he's excited he loves airship sound and you you know, said,

I'd love to hear what those early episodes sound like with, with their sound design. So there we are. All right. So that's something to, you can look forward to the occasional sprinkle in of, of a remaster episode, second edition as we move forward. And that's all the logic and what on earth's going through my head there.

Perfect. Thanks, thanks Zach. You're like a little exclamation point at the end of the sentence. Happy to add in. Yep. Well done, sir. Okay. We need to talk a little bit about this crazy Gilded Age, right? That like- That nobody knows about. So underappreciated. Is the Gilded Age the best era of American history yes or yes oh gosh we'll talk about how that's wrong but um let's let's take a quick break and then we will gilded age it up get into the rogelines brooklyn bridge i'm excited about that me too okay quick break and we'll be right back and welcome back so gilded age let's get into it let's get into it let's talk about it how zach is not entirely right but we're somewhat we're going the right way uh gilded age is way more interesting than people often realize i think at least the way it gets built i mean if you're like me you totally forgot that it even existed because you didn't learn about it in high school or college yeah yeah no that that is that

is truly often the case and you know there's know, I have a lot of former students that are high school teachers now. I feel for them. The curriculum calendar, you know. I think it's definitely not all on the teachers. Yeah, and I just want to make it clear, Kelsey, that I was setting you up to have been saying that. You know, I want to make sure all teachers know that that's definitely what you were saying. Yes, I know. You like to throw me under the bus. Kelsey, I don't know if I can have you on these again because my sarcasm is coming out way too strongly with you being here. We're too comfortable. Oh, well. Oh, well. Yeah, to be clear with a non-sarcastic statement, Kelsey was not knocking the teachers. I was not. No, I had excellent teachers. I did. I loved my high school history teacher. He was fantastic. He was also really good at puns. Oh.

That was one thing I really appreciated about him. But like, I did learn a lot from him. A lot of puns? A lot of both. Sure. Actual history and some puns. I could keep going with this, but I feel like that's not the thing to do. So to the Gilded Age. Yeah.

I mean, well, the point, I guess, just to wrap up on the calendar. I mean, it's insane. The number of things that are. That are supposed to be covered. Within. And. Yes. Yeah. things that are that are supposed to be covered within and yes yeah and unfortunately the gilded

age is the middle child right between the civil war and reconstruction and the first parts of the 20th century both of which are some of the most interesting eras of american history with some of the biggest figures you have lincoln and teddy roosevelt both on Mount Rushmore and Rutherford B. Hayes and Chet Arthur are nowhere in sight. They didn't make the cut. Yeah. And I couldn't tell you why. I mean, I think we could. I think we probably could. Right. No, dude, you nailed that. That is so true. Gilded Age is the fiddle child. I mean, it is that. You've got the great drama, right, that is the Civil War, this quintessential, you know, redefining moment, rebirth of the nation in so many ways. It's only competitor or perhaps only, you know, well, maybe not only. American

Revolution, Civil War, World War II, right? Like, boom, boom, boom. Those are the three things that... Like, those are the three big events that people... People tend to be... Even if you're not a history person, you know about those. Right. They tend to be most interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

And, I mean, okay. Perhaps a slightly dated reference these days. Well, they had a reunion recently, so I guess it works. Friends? I love that show. Okay. I'm re-watching it right now. Are you?

Okay. So, there was an episode where Joey, who depicts an actor, a little meta there, right? He's in a World War I film. I don't remember this episode perfectly, so forgive me. I'm sure somebody's going to email you about it. That'll be great. So Joey is in this World War I film. And then someone, one of the friends asks, yeah, so who do we fight in that war? And then, you know, Joey's face kind of does the like, you know, he, Matt LeBlanc, right? That's the actor.

He's depicting a rather not sophisticated figure, right? Joey is, I'm just assuming, sorry, someone out there is like, yeah, why are you telling us all these details? I'm assuming some listener is not familiar with Friends at this point. It's probably Zach. It is me.

It is before my time. Oh, Zach. You can watch it now, though, and appreciate it. As long as you know. Zach's like, yeah,

I could do that. I could do that. Also, I'm not. So, he's depicting a, Zach, for your benefit, he's depicting a less sophisticated

uh fellow who you know not the most rigorous intellectual pursuits and so his face just kind of goes blank like oh god gee i don't know and it clearly quickly becomes evident that all of the friends group no one knows who the united states fought in World War I. So all that to say, I mean, it's funny because of how well it lands, right? Like that there are, even if you as a viewer might, you know, be familiar with the triple on Tolentan and what happened in World War I, you're familiar with the idea that frankly, there are a lot of intelligent people who do not know the answer to that. It really is American Revolution, war world war two quote to quote bart simpson to quote bart simpson i'm here to teach you about all of the great american wars

the civil war world war two and star wars uh which according episode was that it's in season one. Oh gosh. It's in season one. It's called Bart the general. It's on disc two of the four disc box set. So now I know why Zach didn't watch friends. He was too busy rewatching and memorizing the box. I know.

I know. I was the coolest kid. Mr. Friends is before my time. And then he pulls out season one of The Simpsons. And I'm pretty sure that it does predate Friends. I played my hand. Okay.

Okay. All that to say, but Gilded Age is full of some very fascinating figures and people who could have been real changers. For me, one of the greatest travesties, hands down, in U.S. history, I'd say probably top 10. The assassination of James Garfield. Yep. Totally agree. And I think that that was one of the coolest parts about researching the episode, was that Garfield, kind of like the Gilded Age himself, is just kind of stuck between, you know, when you think about assassinated presidents, you're talking Lincoln, you're talking Kennedy. Those are the names that come to mind. And Garfield really doesn't. But learning more about what his death and what his assassination

meant for the Gilded Age, what it meant for the United States at the time, and the fact that it's overlooked. His agenda, right? Like the man had, well, and even beyond his agenda, just I think a lot of us probably find really refreshing the idea of someone who doesn't even want to be president being president. Oh, yeah. Right. Like, I mean, yeah, you George Washington had that going for him. Yeah. I mean, Grant did to to an extent also. Right. And I feel like those are the kind of people we want as politicians to represent us because we want them to not want that. Because that, I think, helps you feel like they actually care about what you as the people want. Yes, because they're stepping into this truly as just full on servants who it's an obligation a civil obligation yeah it's not they

take that civil servant term very seriously i think i think it's much preferred to have someone who thinks the office is above them and they're constantly striving to hit that ideal yeah then to think that the office is below them and that they're somehow doing you a favor doing you a favor by being your president yeah and you know, you know, I want to be clear. It's not a political commentary. It's mostly just, it's a different way of thinking, I think. Exactly. And, I mean, just some presidents, you can hope that that's there, but you don't have like, and this is what I mean by definitely not meaning this as political commentary.

Like, you don't have empirical freaking evidence that they definitively did not want to be president. Yeah, whereas you do with Garfield. Precisely. And I mean, it's so difficult to have that in the way that our political system has evolved to have that sort of evidence. Yeah. Right. Where you do decide to run and it's very much fought for the nomination. It's absolutely. Yeah. It's not like how it used to be where you were nominated sometimes against your will. Which is what happened here. Right. Like here's here's Garfield literally at the convention saying don't pick me. No, I do not consent to be the candidate. This is not OK. And you know, there you've got, I love that they pull off, they turn to freaking, you know, I mean, Robert's rules, I think exist. I made the joke

that people, you know, that Garfield didn't know it was Robert's rules. I believe that first edition was about that time. But you know, they basically just overruled it. You don't know what you want. It's hard to find a funnier scene than someone shouting, no, I don't want to be president. And the president of the nominating Republican convention saying, sit down. Right. You're going to be president. And just the juxtaposition of these other candidates who are fighting so hard for the nomination. Yeah. And they go

with somebody that doesn't even want it right and then it's just so outstanding and then jumps right into it and then jumps right in yeah he doesn't like mope about the fact that he got chosen when he didn't want to yeah like he just he's like okay well that happened let's make the most of it and the a travesty look it, it's really easy to, of course, think about what might have been. I mean, we can do this in our own lives, right? We can do it in history if this one thing had just gone differently. And, of course, we convince ourselves everything would have been perfect. I'm not trying to say that by any means.

But I just can't help but wonder. How things would have been different. Yes. With Garfield having more of a old school reconstruction sound to him, you know, and some of the worst aspects of the deaths of reconstruction and the settling in. And, you know, we're going to get to this more, the rise of Jim Crow. We haven't hit that episode yet. That is shortly coming. It's not the next one after this, but we're getting there quickly. It's definitely on the docket. It's in this gilded age.

Yeah. We're going to hit it very shortly. And so this might even sink in all the more at that point. But I do, I just, I kind of wonder, you know, how could he have moved the needle and not saying that it would have. And maybe he wouldn't have. Yeah. Exactly right. But thinking about what he said. I just would have and maybe he wouldn't have yeah but exactly right but thinking about what he said i just would have liked to see yeah that's that's all i'm saying i

would have liked to have seen it though i i do have to say gotta give chet credit yeah dude was a better president than people i think often realize i was impressed by that how he yeah you know he kind of put aside that partier idea like the idea of i don't really want to do i just am going to be the vice president because you don't do anything as vice president right like thanks george washington just freezing out john adams what a difficult position for a type a personality curmudgeon like john adams nothing but love i i'm a fan of adams oh i'm sure his hackles never went down never but all that to say um but like i think it's really cool back to back you do have

garfield who didn't want to be president. Arthur definitely didn't want to be president. And not that he was no Garfield. He just didn't want the responsibility of being president, I think was more what it was. But in that statement, I mean, I 100% agree with you. It also shows the respect and reverence that he holds for the office. Yeah.

You know, like the recognition of what it is. And do that. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not trying to put the guy up on the top 10 best presidents. He wasn't like a phenomenal president,

but I think he did, he did a good job with what he had. You know, if you fall middle of the pack, if your life's accomplishment is being a mediocre president of the United States.

I think you're doing pretty good. Chalk it up for a win. Yeah, you know, there are worse legacies, I suppose. Very true. And yeah, I came away with, you know, just greater respect all around for these presidents. Absolutely. I do too.

Hayes as well. He comes in in such an ugly way. And makes the most of it. And I think that his crusade against the spoil system shows a willingness to stand up for what he believed in instead of just playing for cheap political points. And in a way that I respect, especially when it would have been much easier to just go with the flow and go with the mainstream. So truly, unfortunately, I don't think he could have stopped it. You know, the death of reconstruction that's of course a stain on an absolute stain yeah 100 legacy absolutely and

one thing that is often i don't say this to pardon hayes but a nuance that i think is often lost especially in present-day discourse but my life as as I recall it, is the misconception, though, that presidents are kind of like monarchs. So, again, I'm really not trying to give Hayes a pass there. But to realize that if Congress is not on board, I mean, that's where the real power is at. His word is not law. Right. Yeah. Well, and he doesn't have absolute authority to do anything. And so, I mean, you know, I guess all I'm saying here is that I'm not giving Hayes a pass. The death of Reconstruction was happening because that's where Congress was.

Yeah. And that's where America was. It would have happened regardless of who. You just would have liked to have seen him put up more of a fight. Yeah. You know, I would have liked it. But Hayes was, by and large, an honest man. And we'll get more into the death of Reconstruction and Jim Crow and Plessy versus Ferguson.

And we'll get into some of these, you know, I mean, we still have other presidents to get to within the Gilded Age. Cleveland in his odd book ending of Harrison, right? Cleveland. 22 and 24. That's right. The only guy who gets to be two numbers. I did have to answer a question once about that. Somebody was like,

why we've had however many inaugurations, but only 44 presidents now. I'm like, oh, I can answer that question for you. Your moment to shine is great because if they're subsequent presidents they don't get another number but cleveland does because he was not that's right and we've and we've already gotten a bit of a taste of cleveland because he's going to be the governor of new york around the time that where we've been spending a lot of our time which is the brooklyn bridge and statue of liberty let's make that shift i where we've been spending a lot of our time, which is the Brooklyn Bridge and Statue of Liberty.

Let's make that shift. I feel we've probably said ample on those presidents. More than has probably been said about them in the past. Fair enough. Fair enough. You know, this to me is one of the amazing and just amazing things of this era are some of these builds. The masterful construction projects that are still with us to this day. And obviously, again, as I've said so many times before, HGDS is a survey of U.S. history.

We can't stop and just stay put in any one subject that's not. As much as we would like to. Yeah. So many times. Because we had somebody, I think, I don't remember who it was, message us in and ask why we didn't talk about the Erie Canal. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think that would have been great.

We did mention it. Yeah. Right. But. No. Yeah. We mentioned it, but it didn't get a full episode. It doesn't get a full episode.

And I think that's just because we have to be kind of particular about what we choose to focus on. And that was what, I mean mean we didn't jump into this imagining that we were going to spend a whole episode about the brooklyn bridge yeah and part of it does come down to the sources you know that we can get hands on and can we do it right and the brooklyn bridge i mean i think earlier zach remember you saying he's almost a gift wrapped it's a story man it's so compelling right oh yeah absolutely we had we were talking earlier about how the brooklyn bridge was supposed to be part of just an episode about immigration into new york and ellis island and we would all kind of be wrapped

into one little we did have was like we were going to talk about ellis island and the brooklyn bridge and the statue of liberty all in one little episode. Well, look, again, I'm probably being a broken record, but I started this podcast thinking, I want to make it an accessible place where everyone, regardless of their opportunity to go to college, or they want to refresh, whatever, they can get their U.S. history down. And not that I came out of thinking like, oh yeah, because I already know everything. But you know, you come out of frigging PhD and I've taught these courses. You like to think that you know. Kind of, yeah. A fair amount. It didn't dawn on me just, you know, the dark patches in my own understanding of that whole

U.S. history, right? Even as i've taught this very course from you always have blind spots totally i mean especially when you're blind in one eye but um that sorry i always feel the nuclear i am i am in fact i'm legally blind in one eye just in case anyone's thinking that was that's a self jab to be clear it's a joke but also a true one yeah yeah but before i completely derailed that point being i did not realize how much we were going to end up enjoying telling stories of the gilded age and the breath that it would require because yeah we did we thought frankly we thought we'd be through the gilded age in like five or six episodes. And here we are, you know. We've got, I think, four.

Yeah. That we've written. Oh, and there are. However many more we've planned out. We've got planned so many more here. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember telling Greg, I remember, I think I texted you or emailed you or something to that effect.

And as we were prepping for this New York episode, I said, hey, there's one family that made the Brooklyn Bridge. And it's kind of a cool story because for all three of them, it's their life's work. They dedicate everything to death. They dedicate everything they have to this bridge. And that might be kind of a cool story if we want to tell it. And it just worked its way into an episode. It's one of my favorite episodes personally. Same here. And not just because I, you know,

worked on it. Not just because it was basically your brainchild. Not just because it was, it was one that I thought would be cool. And I forced Greg's hand. Forced. Yeah. I think that's probably a little strong.

That's a strong way yeah um no but uh i mean yeah we it really is just a remarkable story and i also did enjoy being able to take johann roebling from germany from mid-19th century germany to the united states and be able to give a peek into what life is like on the other side of the atlantic yeah i just realized the only image funnier than garfield just getting shot down at the republican convention is you went with shot down that felt like the right term for you sure sure zach that was no go ahead. What was that thought? Why don't you finish that up now? I'm waiting. Right when you are. The only other image funnier than Garfield being rejected

at the Republican National Convention. Feels like a better verb. I apologize. I'm sorry, man. The only image funnier than that to me now that i think about it is them totally botching the unveiling of the statue of liberty when you hear the wrong word and the flag just comes down in the middle of a speech gold pure gold um but you know i don't know if the person giving the speech thought that no the senator shouldn't yes they just sit down but here's here's the interesting thing there though and i in some ways it almost speaks to the whole process of these massive construction

projects and i'd even bring the transcontinental railroad back into the picture on this because i'm always happy to have an excuse to talk trains. These are so, I know I sounded a little Sheldon Cooper-esque there. I love that show, so I'm okay with it. It's before my time. That is not before your time.

Sorry, Simpson boy. That ship has sailed. You're not getting away with that. But these, all of them, they're so messy, you know? And you can see that the very things that happen often in the present, right? Some big project that's bitten off.

It's not always the most organized. Exactly, right? And the complaints and it's not going right and all the stupid and that people that are working on it. And these are the things, you know? Yeah. And so today they're posted on Twitter or Facebook or whatever, as opposed to, you know, being the irate words of of an editorial and a newspaper or whatever the case may be. But, you know, you see this

imperfection striving slowly. There's someone in the picture who's a little more pure, someone who's, you know, like offsetting the Thomas Durant figure, if you will, right? Or maybe if we go with the Statue of Liberty, right? You've got our dear friend, Fedele Gugus Bartodi. Don't look at me like that, Kelsey. How's name said? You could have just gone with Gus. No, Gus? That's George Washington's father.

We've been down that road. I don't want to confuse people. So, Auguste, for all the complex layers there in terms of sifting out, what was his motivation? Was he really interested in the idea of liberty? Was this a vanity project masked by ideology? Or is it some of all of all these things the imperfections of the process they're so real they're everywhere but in the end i mean we did get these incredible you have this awesome thing to look at right and like or to use i mean brooklyn bridge we're still using it right i do wish that when I had been in New York visiting that I had actually known the history of it.

I think I would have appreciated it a little bit more. I'm sure when, if you make it to New York City again, it's gonna be a different- It definitely will be a different story. Yeah, so that to me is the beauty of it, I guess. I see some beauty in the, not that I like corruption, you know, that's not what I'm saying. No, but just in the process of getting there.

It's so human. Yeah. It's so human. And we often have these inhuman expectations, right? Of these massive projects that frankly are going to bring to bear all the flaws of everyone that's involved in it. Yeah. And yet all those flaws are overcome. This is where the beauty comes in for me, right? All those flaws are somehow overcome as you have a man looking through a telescope out of his bedroom window to see what's going on where his wife, who's taught herself how to be a freaking engineer, you know, is out delivering the word and directing hundreds, as the case may be. Which having been kind of an engineer, I could not have taught myself that. How to build the Brooklyn Bridge from scratch. No, no.

Yeah. That's, I mean, it's so remarkable. It's so impressive. The overcoming of human, you know, failings, I suppose. All right, I'm sorry. I've blathered. Thank you to everyone for joining us as always. And we're looking forward to carrying on with the Gilded Age here.

Getting a few second editions out as that fits the schedule. Zach, Kelsey, anything else? No, I'm just, I'm excited to learn more about it because, yeah, this has all been new for me. Excellent. I think I'm super excited as well. I think everyone will find the next few episodes

to be electrifying. Gosh, I knew you were going to do that. All right, well, we'll see you with Edison soon. Join me in two weeks when I'd like to tell you a story.

HTDS is supported by premium membership fans. You can join by clicking the link in the episode description. My gratitude to you kind souls Thank you. Ryan Goodson, Bronwyn Cohen, Carrie Begel, Charles and Shirley Clendenin, Charlie Magis, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, David DeFazio, David Rifkin, Denki, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart, Bernie Lowe, George Sherwood, Gurwith Griffin, Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James G. Bledsoe, Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moods, Jennifer Magnolia, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppock, Joe Dovis, John Frugal-Dougal, John Boovey, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Radlavich, John Schaefer, Thank you. and Zach Jackson.