History That Doesn't Suck - Historians (of The) Roundtable: I

Episode Date: June 7, 2018

“The American Revolution is really different from most revolutions around the world. Sometimes Americans get a false sense of how revolutions work because we look at ours and think, ‘Oh right, revolutions! That’s where things get more awesome!’ No.” This is the story … of our stories (I know, super “meta,” right?). In Historians (of the) Roundtable, Greg chats it up with the HTDS Team (Josh and Cielle) “roundtable” style as they analyze the last two episodes … or otherwise tangent on awesome historical things. This is unscripted, so it goes where it goes! This is HTDS’s first roundtable chat, and while HTDS will ALWAYS be free (thanks for listening!!) these roundtables will be a new monthly feature uniquely for those subscribed through Patreon at $10/month and higher. But this month, we’re releasing the first go to the public as an episode so you can see what on earth this is (and yeah, I won’t be coy, we hope you think it’s awesome and say to yourself: “dammit, I need that in my life, where do I subscribe?!”). ____ Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com and go deep into episode bibliographies and book recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette  come see a live show get HTDS merch or become an HTDS premium member for bonus episodes and other perks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We're Jen. And Jenny. From Ancient History Fangirl. Join us to explore ancient history and mythology from a fun, sometimes tipsy perspective. Find us at ancienthistoryfangirl.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and welcome to Historians of the Roundtable. We're trying something out here. We're going to dive a little deeper into the last two episodes. So today that means episode 16,

The Founding Fractures, and episode 17, Death of a Nation's Father. I'm okay. I'm okay. Are you going to make it, Greg? I make no promises. Let's get that out right now. We definitely killed your Bromance we we know it was hard george is my boy all right so yeah we're gonna we're gonna basically go through the scripts um bring out some of the fun things that we you know there are so many cool facts that geez just don't make it into the script they either don't fit with the main narrative well enough it's too much of a tirade here we can tirade so we may do a little bit of that we might also get a little bit lost on josh's dating life

but you know we'll just we'll just see where things go uh no i can promise you that will definitely not be a topic for discussion but no like greg said we're here is a place where we can basically go anywhere we want with facts, dates. We're not structured at all. So you may get specifics in the episode. And then again, we may just be talking about who knows what. This is something that's been missing from our lives. I mean, the I love what we're doing. I love the scripted.

I mean, basically book. That is the usual history doesn't suck episode. And we're definitely going to keep things that way. Today's episode is really more of a taste. Let's be blunt. We want you to enjoy this and decide that you want to support the podcast. So, of course, the main thing always free uh because we're passionate about educating the world but you know for those of you who are thinking geez i want more i want to go a little bit deeper well hey here it is so with no further ado uh do we want to kind of just look in on 16

yeah i was gonna say uh we can start off with george's inauguration okay but i do want to point out that cl has said like nothing i know and what the hell cl you need to sorry you got a top researcher on the podcast i know you put a microphone in front of me and i swear i shut up i promise when we're recording episodes they can't get me to shut up it's a little ridiculous oh oh that in a good way yeah so um all right so uh let's just go ahead and jump in then shall we yeah let's do it great i guess you're waiting for me to jump in fine no i was gonna say can you imagine this day i as we're going through when we were recording this i was just thinking, I try to place myself in that situation.

I would have been the passerby. Right. I would have been like in the crowd. Sure. His carriages go, George's carriages going. Right. Right.

And, uh, I mean, you're at most what maybe, maybe a veteran at most, like, I mean, we're chances are slim that we're important people. For sure.

Yes. We'll just, let's all go ahead and embrace that. And clearly, like, you know who George is, who doesn't, right? Oh, yeah. But you probably haven't met him, I would assume, right? Like, you're a common soldier, you're not walking up to his headquarters and like, what's up, George? But yes and no, in a way. I mean, yeah, you probably haven't met him. There are quarters you know what's up george but yes and no in a way i mean yeah you probably haven't met him there are you know oh by the way we we talked about this after after the q a not

that the q a wasn't done well but uh these sorts of episodes a little bit looser um and maybe this is me being the over paranoid this is what's imbued in me going through the phd process and being an academic i always feel a little more jittery when i'm talking without my books and citations right in front of me so everything just a little little grain of salt um feel free to fact check us we might we might misstate we're extrapolating right well yeah i mean are we going to mistake probably not honestly but i just feel the need to like put that out there. I don't have four different sources to footnote every sentence like I do with, you know, our usual episodes. I might have a problem with footnoting, guys. It's a little. Fact checking. Yeah, I know. I'm a little extreme. Anyhow, where were we before?

A common veteran that's just watching oh yeah go by so um true chances are oh right this is the fact that led me on that whole you know tangent yes i wasn't 1790 population we're at about three million get give or take give or take about three million americans across the 13 states at this point and you know obviously george has not shaken hands with every freaking american right that hasn't happened of course but at the same time this is such a smaller republic i mean you know he's not so inaccessible like today you can't freaking saunter up to 1600 pennsylvania avenue and just go chill with the president today whereas you know let's see we're in episode 16 16 yeah we talked about george's well i mean it's kind of in both episodes right uh anyhow we we the the people have heard

about george's levees. Oh, yeah. They start in this episode. Right. Okay. They're all starting next. So, you know, this is a time where a well-dressed dude can just stroll on up to George's place, you know. Yeah. The levees are published in the papers. Everyone's welcome.

And obviously those haven't even happened yet. I mean, he's getting inaugurated. But my point is simply that this is a time where the president is way more accessible i mean we live in utah the population of the state is about three million so it's about the same population in this state as was the 13 states when america first began right our governor is way less suddenly i feel like I'm like getting political. Not accessible. This is no comment in either way, Governor Herbert.

But yeah, he's just way less accessible. It's the 21st century. He has bodyguards. You know, there are safety concerns, protocols, the things that have been established. That's not the case for George today. So anyhow, chance, chance you know shaking hands shaking hands with with the tall virginian with no almost no teeth no teeth by the end of the presidency but yeah

poor george my gosh and this might be this something that popped in my mind as you just said that we never said this in the podcast i it maybe was a uh bonus that we put in the extra tidbits but the four years prior and correct me extra tidbits, but the four years prior, and correct me on the years here, but the four years prior were like the calmest, happiest years for George before he gets inaugurated. At least, see, I'll jump in.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably pretty accurate, at least according to his family members that are with him at Mount Vernon and observing him. His stepson, well, yeah, his stepgrandson, excuse me. Yes, it's his stepgrandkids that live with him at Mount Vernon and observing him. His stepson. Well, yeah, his step grandson, excuse me. Yes, it's his step grandkids that live with them. And that, well, he's got a lot of nieces and nephews that come and go.

And he's got a lot of his personal secretary, Tobias Lear, is with him. And oh, my goodness, they're all just like, yeah, if this guy could have just been a Virginia planter his whole life, he would have been a very happy man. Now, I believe them. At the same time, I do think it's fair to just point out their perspective. That was probably the most awesome time

for them getting to hang out with George, who's kind of a legend, beyond being step-grandpa, basically grandpa. Yeah, grandpa. And the eight years prior, all the stuff that he did, right? Yeah, so he's,

it's like, honestly, it's like living with a demigod in terms of what his reputation is, how he's viewed. You know, so here's this person that's intimately in their lives and yet at the same time, you know. It's so huge. Yeah. Yeah. And not just large in stature in the actual physical way that george is for that

for the period but anyhow i think it was probably the best of times to get a little you know charles dickens there uh for them and i wouldn't be surprised if they maybe kind of put their own experience on to george that's all i'm saying i think it probably was the best time of his life but it was certainly a very very happy and peaceful time when yeah he wasn't fighting a war or running a country i just we're fighting parties i continually try to put myself in the positions of these people were depicting in the podcast and i just can you just picture george after those like four or five years and calm right and then he's, I just got elected as president. I don't think it was a thing where it was like,

I just got elected as president. No. And we talk about this in the episode. It's a burden. You can tell by the way he's like, this guy has charged into battle. And the way that he's kind of shaking giving his first speech after the inauguration

is like, it's a big deal to him. It's a freaky thing. Well, he basically says that. I mean, geez, I wish I could remember it word for word. But at one point when Jefferson's, you know, editor in chief hit man for no is talking mad crap about George. George basically says to to Thomas, hey, I don't want to be here. Well, he actually is really irate as he says this. So he doesn't say it all nice and calm as much as we know George for being a man who keeps his temper in check.

He basically makes that point. He's going off on how I would rather be on my freaking farm. That's what I want to be doing right now. I get the impression Thomas is kind of like, yeah, yeah, right. But nonetheless, if we're going to take George's word, which I tend to, yeah, he's kind of said it himself. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't sign up for it. Which, was that in 18? When we relinquish to to john adams the presidency from george

well we mention as we see i'll mention this little tidbit if it's in the next episode you guys will hear it um i love the little uh letter that adams writes to his wife it's it's an 18 it's an 18 yeah okay where he's just i'm completely paraphrasing this but basically he's like the moment george gets relinquished from his presidency the relief on his face and george just stares at him basically like you don't even know you don't even know what's coming and the funny thing is Is that Adams was Washington's Vice president John kind of knows what George went through He watched it from a distance

He was the vice president so he knows what doing nothing is like From an ice cold distance Yeah You go sit with the senate I'm going to run the country See you later Yeah Okay well Anything else you want

to say here on the um or rather be inspired by i guess the the inauguration i don't know we've really even talked that much about the inauguration per se itself the bible's awesome yeah yeah i find it interesting i know we talked about in the q a but his you know being a deist and uh i don't know i just always picture what's going in his head what was he thinking right like he's putting his hand on the bible and as we talked about he clearly did not say what common myths thinks he says right sure but i still think uh i think he has a reverence for that's what that's kind of what i'm feeling is that although he may not believe per se in a specific religion he there's a reverence for he recognizes some things that he's like uh maybe the hand of the divine was in certain things that went right

right i mean you know i think that geez when it comes to religion and politics honestly often straight hard lines they fit some people, no question, right? Someone considers themselves a strict Catholic, you know, strict, strict Mormon. Here we are in Utah, right? Whatever the case may be. But the majority, or at least a significant number of people, I think, don't always fit into a clean category. You know, they certainly identify with one system, but there's nuance in their life. I mean, we're complicated beings. That's part of being human.

So sure, does George fit into the deist camp? Yeah, but I don't know if it's mutually exclusive with any sort of, you know, appreciation for, love of, even maybe some sort of indescript feeling for larger Christianity. I mean, I get the impression that, push comes to shove, I think he definitely identifies in some, in a less traditional way, but in a way. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Anyway, I just thought that'd be interesting for your first time, you know, during the inauguration,

put his hand on the Bible and the thoughts going through his head. That's all. Let's talk about his suit. Okay, yeah. Yes. Come on. Let's get you to talk more. The hard-hurt broadcloth suit.

There it is. Oh, my goodness. That sounds like a line at, i don't even know all these stores are out of business now is jc penny still a thing no no i think you mean nordstrom sure sure as you can tell i shop at these these sorts of places that's awesome right i do good i'm a shopper good and actually i love to sew and so fabric is my thing okay uh all you sure so the hartford broadcloth suit that actually he and john are wearing the same suit and it matches exactly except that it has different buttons on george's than it does on john's so that's kind

of fun that's cute yeah i know very very family portrait. Awkward family portrait. Very awkward family portrait. They didn't have pictures back then, thank goodness. Yeah, and thankfully the National Gazette didn't run a who wore it best the next day. That would have been pretty awful. I'm pretty sure George would have won that contest. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't think his rotundity was going to carry the day, given the way people mocked his, right? I mean, obviously, I'm pulling from the historical mockery of him right there, in case anyone's missing that. I'm not just trying to bag on, yeah. I mean, hey, if someone wants to think, no, I'm not going to take credit for that.

But for the era, he was trying to, you know, he's dressed to the nines. Exactly, yeah. the era he was trying to you know he's dressed to the nines exactly yeah no but it's kind of amazing that they came up with american fabric which we talked about in the episode didn't we yeah we did it's kind of amazing that they came up with american fabric at all touched on it just barely yeah we hinted just a little bit because the american industrial revolution is about to take off but it hasn't taken off yet soon but yeah not yet sorry go ahead oh no you're fine um so i don't know most people at this time are literally spinning their own thread and weaving their own cloth and making their own clothes like like cl does i do not spin my own thread or make my own cloth i shop for my fabric online and when it comes i buy my patterns and I sew my clothes.

But actually, I don't sew my own clothes. I sew clothes for my kids. So here's the real question. Can you make a reproduction of George's suit? Because that would just be awesome. Maybe. That would actually be cool. Maybe. That would be be cool. Maybe.

That would be pushing my skills to the very limit. Because that's what I think you should be sending your boy to school in right there. Right. Yeah. He doesn't let me sober in anymore. He wouldn't get picked on at all. No. That would not result in any harassing.

No. Not at all. No. When he needed a new suit, we just went to Macy's. Right. Not JCPenney's, which apparently is no longer a thing yeah yeah no but it's kind of amazing that these two guys found these suits and had them made for the occasion and right found american fabric to do it with because again i mean industrialization

we don't really even consider it having started it's about to it's about to break wide open it's about to start starting yeah is essentially how i how I'd put it in 1789. Because this is such an agrarian world. Yes. I mean, and of course, that's where I found it. I think we nailed it, you know, high five team. But it's almost a little difficult even to explain some of the differences between hamilton and jefferson's views because it's kind of like northern agrarian and southern agrarian less agrarian agrarian in the north

right you know i mean and honestly it's different crops of course and so forth but that's a perfect segue to jump to the two other basically main people in episode 16. Sure. Sure. Or we can continue to talk. No, please. Let's not be talking about the suit and my inability to make it. Want to learn how you can make smarter decisions with your money?

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Jeez. They really hate each other. You know, something I do want to make clear in case there's any doubt in anyone's mind out there i i deeply respect both of these dudes they are just so incredibly different so even as we're highlighting the fractious relationship between them and i think that's important to do it's important to do tripping over my own tongue there, partly because, and I think this is a little unfortunate and can be unhealthy,

we tend to lump the founding fathers into this big camp. We talk about the founding fathers believed, dot, dot, dot. Really? A few of them believed that. Exactly. Some others wildly disagreed.

You literally just got done talking on a rant about boxing up somebody. I mean, that was about beliefs, but literally just a blanket statement. I'm like, well, clearly all of them believed blank. Right. I mean, Josh, Ciel, I think you've probably heard me joke sometimes as we're preparing stuff. I mean, in my opinion, I think the only thing that we can say they agreed on is that the crown could go screw itself. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's about it. You know, I mean, they're done. Yeah. And then after that, how are we going to set up a new nation? What's it going to look like? What kind of government should we have? Where should our focus be?

All of that. It's very much up to individual interpretation. And they don't always agree. And yeah, Alexander and Thomas don't agree with how to set up the new United States of America. They, they just don't understand one another. No.

And I mean, they just, they are both so convinced they are right. Yes. Which again, though, you know, think about what the whole revolution having even happened.

What type of personality does it take to lead through a freaking war right you know yeah it's going to take some strong-headed i don't take no for an answer individuals and i know i touched on this a little bit i think it was in episode 16 anyhow you know they do both bring very different, wonderful things to the revolution. Jeez, Jefferson's more philosophical mind gives us a lot. Goodness, how many Americans quote Jefferson without even realizing they're quoting Jefferson? Yeah, right. Like all the friggin' time.

Whereas, jeez, without Alex's financial plan, whew. I don't think we would have made it. Yeah, it got off the ground probably. No, it'd be an entirely, I mean, you know, counterfactual history always gets messy, but I can say the trajectory is 180 degrees different from where the United States ended up going. Oh, easily.

And I always think, sorry, I'm continually putting myself in these uh places we've depicted but talking about being in the room where it happens talking a little nice nice lin-manuel reference there yeah um we're not sponsored by them or anything no but if you yeah but please if you want by all means no i'm I'm thinking about, and actually, that's another Hamilton reference, where they're in the moment, in the room, boozing it up,

coming to a, where they decide to move the Capitol. Oh, right. Who would love to be in that room and know what went down? Right? Right? Yes. To be a fly on that wall.

Oh, are you kidding me? Yeah. I mean, I think these guys had such a complex, I'm obviously just going clear off imagination here. Well, you have to. There's no records. There's no records.

That's how a good behind closed doors deal works. There are no records. They did it right. I, for some reason, picture this moment of Alex. They're pouring wine, and they both have know a cup of wine and they pour another one and inadvertently they're almost like game a gaming at each other like oh you think you can drink more than you know like clearly there's there's a complex going on right where they're like trying to up each other while they're coming to an agreement about sure you know what's going

on oh i could definitely see that alex would be over about it while Thomas would have to play. Like, I'm not even noticing that you're drinking that much. Yeah. He was the ultimate politician at hiding what he really thought. Oh yeah. Not playing his cards too soon. Yeah.

But you know, I think I see Thomas more out culturing that, that would be, I think the route he'd go you know as the madera is getting poured he'd be sure to let everyone know that this bottle comes from france oh yes i picked this up while i was with you know lord so and so letting alexander there kind of squirm in his uncomfortable ways as he's always processing coming from his poverty impoverished background and not having the pedigree, the family name.

Again, right there even is that these are the sorts of unrecorded things we can only speculate on, and yet are those fueling the very rivalry that is ultimately dividing the country as George Washington is basically getting pulled two ways by two people he loves, respects in many different, you know, regards. Yeah. And I think George can see the value of both of their visions, where Alexander cannot see the value in Thomas's vision, and Thomas cannot see the value in Alexander's. But I think George running an army can see the value in Thomas's vision and Thomas cannot see the value in Alexander's.

But I think George running an army can see the value in a strong federal government that's well funded. But he's a farmer from Virginia. Exactly. So he can see the dream of Thomas's and, you know, he's so happy in that role. Surely he could relate to both of these visions. But that's always the genius of george washington is that this is a man who knows how to he knows how to step back get out of his own blinders and really envision you know other perspectives to take them in i mean

maybe we're switching subjects here a little bit, but episode 17, where we talk about Georgian slavery. You know, I mean, this is the ultimate demonstration of his ability to, and even if it does take an insanely long time, if we really think about what an incredible corner that is for any gentry Virginian raised on a plantation, you know, for him to turn the corner to any degree at all. And, you know, you don't see this in his neighbors.

I mean, he's basically hated by his neighbors. I think that's so, man, it seems so foreign to us in the 21st century. You look back and think, oh, everyone must have loved Georgeorge washington at the time and you know we see all the love for him sure but that he is basically he's turned into in some ways the the worldly elite who's gone out elsewhere you know and now he's come back but he's rejected by his own because he's changed so much he's so open to the world to these other views he's come back, but he's rejected by his own because he's changed so much. He's so open to the world, to these other views. He's questioning the social norms.

So he's getting serious hate from his immediate neighbors. Even though Mount Vernon's a hopping place all the time with all sorts of people stopping in to hang out, they aren't the locals. He has no friends anywhere nearby. I mean, they basically see him as a northern sellout. I don't know, maybe that's a little strong. I feel like that's fair. Yeah, I don't think so. And I think it's laudable

that he is able to take a step back from the world he grew up in when so many other people couldn't and change his views on things. Yeah. And on slavery specifically, it's kind of amazing. he grew up in when so many other people couldn't and change his views on things yeah and on yeah on slavery specifically it's it's kind of amazing well i would also say that it plays a major role in the success of his presidency and again you can't get counterfactual doesn't really work that

well at least that's my take but you know in terms of the republic the united states of america that republic succeeding his ability. Well, as Thomas Jefferson, right? We quoted him in one of the episodes saying, you know, the North and South will hold on if they have you to hold on to. Right. It's not just because, of course, his background helps. Right. He's he's got the CV and he is just charming as hell.

We touched on that all the way back. And I'm going to try and remember the number of the episode. But when he was taking over the Continental Army at Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1775. So, sure, George has this great pedigree, CV, et cetera. Yeah, pedigree is not the word I'm really going for. CV, resume. Sorry, I'm in academic talk. Resume.

That's okay. Resume, not CV. Resume. We're going to use the normal word sure george has this resume going for him but it's his ability to to see all these different perspectives and angles that no one else can wrap their head around right that i think is the real success that's the key yeah and to see the value that anyone could bring to the table no matter what their resume says about them no matter who they are on paper if he can see that someone from france would be just as helpful as someone from right germany as someone from virginia well and even to go back

to alexander hamilton right i mean sure alex has made himself when george snatches him up as an aid to camp during the war george's man himself uh george excuse me alexander has i and i would say made himself this is a self-made for sure i mean sure he's getting assistance from people but because he's so good at demonstrating his brilliance and his utility anyhow as an artillery captain i mean for, for George to be like, yeah, let's take this kid from the Caribbean. I mean, so already one immigrant status, right? Yes.

Like that's a strike against him. And he has no significant family. Right. And for George to say, yeah, let's he's capable. He's smart. His French is awesome.

Let me, I'm going to bring him into my inner circle. This is, this is useful. And so I'm going to bring him into my inner circle. This is useful. And so I'm going to prioritize, basically go with a bureaucratic system. I'm going to prioritize this kid who has skills and talents and ability

over someone from Virginia with the last name Lee. Anyhow, I feel like I'm talking a lot. No, this is the whole point. It's really, it's the traits of a good leader. I mean, that's a super sum up of what everything you guys just said. But somebody who can learn from the people around them and change and adapt according to the situation. Look at the past 17 episodes where we touch on George. How can you not see from the the person at uh at fort necessity

all the way to now right clearly i don't know we're clearly being apologists here for george but um well and while we're getting our mad you know man crush on there um at least josh and i i won't say cl has a man crush that would i don't think I do have a man crush on George. I think that's fair to say. Good, good. Oh, we definitely do. There's no way around it. I mean, to end our talk on George,

I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about his death. Yeah, I mean. Well, I was just thinking we should probably jump over to 17. And since we're on George, we may as well just keep it Georgian it up. I will say, and this is a little tidbit for everybody listening, but recording the ending of 17 was really emotional. I did not see that coming. Yeah, we really didn't see it coming.

The script was written. We clearly saw what was going to be read on the podcast but as we got to that sorry as greg was reading it and we got to that part um it's pretty emotional yeah yeah which sounded kind of weird for some reason no well i mean you know one of the things that i have been well geez i would think anyone listening at this point, especially if they've been listening from the beginning, should know this by now. I mean, I'm very careful about the research.

I have no problem showing the darker sides of America's heroes. I mean, these are people I consider heroes myself. I actually think that's a strength i i don't like my heroes to be inaccessible people who i don't actually feel like i can try to emulate because they're so much better than me i think that's damaging personally it's one of the things i love about being you know being a historian is going through the training process to really come to where I look at documents in a very specific way and trying to parse my own feelings out from objective reality, which of course you can't do perfectly, right? Anyone who says otherwise is just full of crap, but you know, you try to do that. And I mean, this across this podcast project, I have definitely bonded with George.

I mean, there's just no two ways to put it. My respect for him has only skyrocketed. Not that I didn't know so much about him already and the main baseline, but as I've just been in his head reading his own personal letters and what other people have to say about him, I think that to me is really powerful reading the primary sources of the people that are surrounded by him on a day-to-day basis. It makes it easier to suspend my 21st century views and to try and enter the 18th century try and see things from that specific perspective and really realize you know the ways he's rising above uh what you know the

human not all human feelings right i mean he has a bad temper he keeps it in check publicly but privately like alexander hamilton right was had enough of george basically yeah blowing his lid you know letting his steam off on alex at least that was alex's perspective um but yeah to to to kill him i mean that it kind of felt like experiencing that death with him and maybe maybe that caught me off guard so much because as as you know, we strive to make this narrative driven more so than when I'm writing an academic article book where it's a little snootier. It's a little denser. Yeah, denser. The intimacy isn't there. And this, I don't know, I guess bringing in just a titch of art

to try and liven the nonetheless very serious history that we're doing, it made George feel very real to me. Yeah, yeah, that's something that I can relate to. Yeah, I was just going to say, C.O., you should jump in right here, I know. Yeah. Well, I mean, there was so much stuff that we couldn't put in about his death because it's, oh my goodness, it's so tragic. But just afterward, what happened to Martha,

that she closes up the room that they shared and doesn't take any of the furniture out of it, moves into another room in the house, sleeps in a different bed for the rest of her life, uses a different dresser. And I don't know. I'm assuming she had servants go in and keep it clean and whatnot. But it was too hard to watch her husband die there. She

couldn't live in that room anymore, which to me just speaks to their love and respect for one another, but just makes it so human of what it is to lose a spouse to a serious illness. T-Rex have such tiny arms. And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to? Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional thinking about it. No, no.

So apparently we're a bunch of saps. No, but really, I mean, we get so into these people's heads, the number of hours we pour into, you know, into doing this stuff. And,

and I would like to think that although in some ways we may be a little more connected to George because of the amount of research that goes behind. Right. I'm assuming the audience feels somewhat similar experience, right? I hope so the audience feels a somewhat similar experience, right? I hope so. They've connected with George over all these episodes, and then we get to his death, and it's a big deal. I mean, we label the whole episode Death of a Nation's Father.

Yeah. And this isn't to downplay his death, but I love the line, and you guys can jump in here where he basically says, I die. Gosh, I should just you guys can jump in here where he basically says that I, I die. Gosh, I should just look it up. It's,

it's so good. But he says to Dr. Craig. Yes. Oh, he says I die hard. Yes. Yeah.

And, uh, I, but, but I don't, but yeah, I don't remember off the top of my head, but it's to be effective,

but I, I don't fear it. Something like that. Let's see. I have it. It's's i die hard but i am not afraid to go yes thank you yeah am gosh i really want to get the quote in there but um the reason is i i sense relief in george oh in that moment oh i do too this think of all the stuff he's done, getting up to this point, not to mention the freaking last, what, day of bleeding. Oh. Besides that.

Yeah, no, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you. I'd be ready to check out too. I really think that's what it was. I'm assuming we don't have this documented, but I'm sure he exchanged a nice farewell to Martha and everything. But then I think he made his peace with the divine and wrapped it up, and he was ready to go. My own views on death changed a little bit about, what was that,

two and a half years ago, I think now, when my last grandparent, my grandfather, died. He was 98, so a lot older than George, but I remember visiting him. I made it a point to visit him is fairly frequently, uh, though he lived out of state. And I really came to realize how lonely it was for him. He, the world he knew no longer exists. And, um, you know, this isn't the case with George, but his, his friends and sure I'm his family, but you know, I'm this, I'm this kid who entered the world after he was in retirement for crying out loud. Um, just kind of realizing that, you know, perpetuating life, don't get me wrong. This is not a death wish By any means Right

Of course But just realizing like Wow No There is a point where You know I think there's a moment Where you feel

I'm assuming clearly But Yeah You feel like Yeah I've done what I need to do Yeah And I'm tired

And I'm ready to go I'm ready to go It's time to move on I think at my Grandma's funeral Very recently There was a pretty similar Feeling there

As you were describing, Greg. My grandma had polio as a young woman and never ran or danced again in her life. Wow. So she spent about 70 years of her life not being able to run or dance. And every single person at the funeral said, I can just see her dancing. I can see grandma dancing. And, you know, like you can imagine George being able to look back at the things that he's done with his life and say, I have fought the good fight and I'm ready to move on. And I think he's frustrated

with the fight too. I mean, you know, as he's reading the newspaper right before, right before all the sickness sets in. And again, this is, you know, I guess you can see kind of one of my pet peeves is that idea that people get of the founding fathers said, A, B, C, whatever. But here he is reading through the paper, getting all pissed. James Monroe, another Revolutionary War veteran,

an officer who served under George and will later go on to be president of the United States. Right. He's getting upset at Jesus. Well, let's see. So it was Monroe and then Madison. Right. Because Madison supporting him and running for office.

And you can just at least I can picture George's, you know, very pale complexion kind of turning red as he's fuming over these Democratic Republicans. And, you know, he just sees it as as having undermined him for so long and you know he knows that there are problems that they still exist and we get that in his farewell address but yeah he's tired he's he has as you said he fought the good fight and he is ready to check out and go meet the author of the universe as i think he would he would view it right uh i mean we don't have much on his views on the afterlife but he at least alluded to having some hope of the afterlife when his mother died so that's true you know there's um again you know uh another little nod to what his religious views

may or may not have been. You know, and he likes so many of these other founding fathers. I guess I'm segueing a little bit that way again. But it's not like they left behind some sort of affidavit. To 21st century Americans, here is a detailed analysis of what I believe on God. Right, right. They didn't know who we were going to be. Right.

So, you know, we're connecting the dots from the evidences that have been left behind. Anyhow, as I think about the loss of his mother, I'm sure he was having some sort of thoughts of like, there's something more and all that. Why don't we talk about the death of the other nation's father? Yeah.

Is that cool? No, I think that's completely cool. Okay. Which I hope everybody enjoyed the sound effects in that episode. They were so good, Josh. Yes, well done, sir. Thank you.

That's my plug. Yeah, nothing like a good guillotine. Can I use the adjective good with guillotine? I don't. Nothing like a good guillotine. Well, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure the French thought that same thing though,

when his head came rolling off and they. Plenty of them did. Took that little dip of the finger and said, mmm. Oh my gosh. Nice and salted. Well salted. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Yep. Bien salé. Yeah. Oof. So, obviously we are not going to get

into the nitty gritty of the French Revolution I mean I guess we could go down that road we very well could if you want to talk a lot Greg while Josh and I listen

please lecture us on the French Revolution yeah we won't do that but you know again with Louis XVI

we while we don't have the same perhaps we and you as well who's listening we don't have the same perhaps you know we and we mean you as well who's listening we don't have the history with louis on a personal basis obviously there's plenty of history about louis the 16th but we don't have the personal history with him that we do with george so there isn't quite that same emotional bond and we did definitely want to kind of get

in his head and so yeah i was gonna say i'll jump in real quick i i think we did a good job getting personal very quickly right within a what is it an eight minute paragraph it's an eight minute basically stint where we kill him but yeah i think we got personal in there because we talk about maybe some things that are going through his mind and talking about his son and his wife and no i think it's a it's a heartbreaking story. And, you know, I mean, the French Revolution is, we'll go down this road a little bit. I mean, it is different from the American Revolution.

You know, plenty of similarities, but also plenty of differences. I'd say there are apples and oranges. You know, they're both fruit, but... But that's it. Yeah, but they're different fruit. You know, and that's where you see, I guess you could say the Democratic Republicans, you know, Tommy Jefferson's crowd kind of seeing more of the fact that, hey, this is all fruit, you know, sister republics and all that.

Whereas Alexander and his crowd, you know, they're kind of going, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's citrus. That's some citrus going on over there. We're not feeling that. Yeah. Right. We're Johnny Appleseeding it up in here. I know Johnny Appleseed doesn't come yet, but you get my point. I mean, the regicide,

killing of the king, that obviously the Americans fought against the crown, but they didn't go and behead freaking George. King George, to be clear, not George Washington. I think I have a question about the killing of the king so when i was doing some reading and doing some research about this i read that there was this plot by some of the leaders of the revolution to spirit away king louis and his family yes and get him somewhere safe and he can live romantically in exile and won't this be wonderful and then when they realize oh we do that, we're going to be the ones that die. Nevermind, we'll kill the king. I just wonder how many people really

secretly thought this is a terrible, terrible idea. We should not be killing our king. Yeah. And of course we can't ever completely answer that question, but you know, we're getting to this phase. So, all right, I'll go into the French revolution a little bit. The French revolution historians, we, I think I might even touch touched on this in the episode we divide it into two phases there's the uh bourgeoisie uh phase or liberal phase as it's called then there's the radical phase right and you know this is something the american revolution did not do the the french revolution hits this point where those who are kind of riding the crest, the top of the wave of the revolution, they start turning on all these boogeymen that they're

seeing. Now, some of those boogeymen are real. They are not in favor of the French Revolution, but some of these are also just more moderate people and so you know you're you're kind of at that point the liberal phase you know starts with this call for a constitution it's very much more along the lines of the american revolution you know we're talking about a constitution we're not actually talking about a change in the power structure you know the elites in america before the revolution they're still the elites after the revolution right and this is where the american revolution is really different from most revolutions around the world i think sometimes americans get a false sense of how revolutions work because we look at ours and we think oh right revolutions

that's where you know things get more awesome, more often what happens is society is completely upended. You get a power vacuum. Lots of people die. Yeah, lots of people die. And often the lowest common denominator who's willing to do the worst things seizes power. And then it goes right back to how it was before. If not worse.

Yeah. So can you tell I'm not necessarily a fan of revolution by and large um reform is usually the way to go right and you know france is starting this cycle where where they kind of they lose control which most revolutions do they're not able to hold on to this idea of just making a constitution we're going to let some people vote it's going to be awesome instead it gives away to you know we're going to fix all these wrongs and we're going to fix them all at the same time we're going to fix them all right now and that's how we end up with we're going to kill the king because you know we're getting rid of

monarchy and then it's very much a slippery slope that they go down. I mean, slippery with blood. Thousands, countless thousands of French are being executed. For disagreeing, right? Yeah. I mean, some of the leaders, Danton is a prime example. He's a leader during the liberal phase. And then as they go into the radical phase, and don't get me me wrong danton is down with chopping off some heads okay but as they start winning uh some of their wars some of their wars remember france is at war with like everyone and their mom at the same freaking time of the wars yeah didn't

they declare war on like all monarchies as a part of this radical basically yeah and so they're just and you know can we just pause though in a way kind of mad respect france is winning yeah they're fighting like all of europe and winning who does that yeah despite like the common trope right of the france and white flag always surrendering it's true you know that that grows i'm i'm 90 sure on this and i just made that statistic but i'm pretty sure that just comes out of world war ii it's where americans got the perception that oh the french suck because look we had to go bail them out right you know um and look uh look at some history exactly i mean don't create an empire overnight there's a reason french has spoken on every continent uh around the world the french have done their fair share of um conquering of beating people on the battlefield not necessarily saying that is a good thing right

but yeah they they don't they don't suck at fighting at sending armies to kill people at any rate where were we before we went down that route sorry no it's cool um oh right just the the radicalness right so danton um heanton, he, yeah, he gets executed. A lot of leaders like him who start kind of saying, hey, guys, maybe we can chill out on the executing. Then other leaders who are more radical, as we're kind of going to the lowest common denominator, Robespierre, Robespierre makes me feel a little more comfortable there.

He gets, he becomes basically the dictator, if you will, at the top of this small committee of public safety. And essentially anyone who just looks at the guy wrong, obviously I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but only just, you look at Robespierre wrong, you're not gonna be looking at anything because your head's gonna be detached within 72 hours. So these great leaders from the early liberal phase they're getting executed and finally we have what's called the thermidorian reaction i touch on that i doubt anyone's gonna remember i

think i might have used the phrase and uh in the last i don't know in a episode yeah um uh anyhow that's when the people are like you you know what, Robespierre? This dude sucks. He's the worst. You know what? Let's kill him. So he gets guillotined, and after that, everyone kind of looks around and sort of agrees. Hey, we like this.

Yeah, hey, you know what's awesome? Not guillotining everybody. Right. Maybe we'll still have a population if we stop doing that. So they stop doing that. And then we get to the directory right with Talleyrand, who is coming up. Nate.

Oh, right, right, right. That's in the next episode. He's coming. My bad. My bad.

I'll dial that back. Yeah. Um, why we're on this kind of French tangent, I actually did have another question and it's a little snippet. It's just a sentence we put in the episode, but, um,

um, talking about, uh, Louis son, Louis Charles, right? Charles. Yeah. Sorry, I can't do the French pronunciation. Come on, Josh. And I wouldn't even try to do it in Spanish either. But we mentioned this little sentence that he's going to die at the hands of jailers when he's 10 so is that as i

it's a brief thing obviously we didn't research into it figured that you would know like did he is he in jail like wow well yeah so i mean even as louis the 16th is incarcerated during the revolution his family is too they start keeping him separately from his family so you know at the end of his life even as he's you know kept in jail he's well in jail i mean you know up in that up in the penthouse ish um he so he's separate from his family um and you know this little six-year-old boy he's also incarcerated and he's going to to be incarcerated basically the rest of his life. And being, you know, a claimant to the throne, even as France considers itself a republic, this is something that happens when a monarchy turns republic. It changes its regime.

There's always the fear that the kid who has the claim to the throne— Is going to rise up again. Exactly. He could go raise an army. He could get a foreign army. I mean, look, we see all these other European countries who are happy to descend on France because they're saying, look,

we don't want our subjects to go get this crazy idea that they should have self-determination and rights and vote and all that nonsense. Right? Yeah. So you know that Austria, Prussia, britain spain all these monarchies they'd be happy to throw in with the little six-year-old boy and say sure we'll put you back on or back on you we'll get you on your throne you got it so that's where he's going to be or it was you know

mistreated and you know he doesn't die of this mistreatment. It's, I want to say it was tuberculosis. Yeah, it's an illness. Couldn't tell you which one. But. During his imprisonment, he's mistreated. Yeah, and then, you know, dies at 10. His body is very poorly, you know, I want to say it was an unmarked grave. They do eventually later track down his heart.

The, I want to say it was, sorry, I'm a little bit into speculative, not speculative, just, you know, things I read,

you know, years ago as a PhD student. And is it coming back to me perfectly accurately? I believe the surgeon who did his autopsy uh saved his heart like kept it like preserved it yeah kind of uh one that's is that something of a tradition i'm not gonna comment because you guys know how i am if i'm not sure i don't right so uh at any rate he saves the heart it it's presented later to the restored uhbon. So the family, right? The monarchy, it's the bourbons, right?

Like the whiskey, right? Yes. The bourbons. Bourbon. Again, I feel better. So it's given to the restored monarchy because that's what France is going to do. After all this revolution business

and Napoleon coming through, they're going to be like, oh, let's go back to the bourbons. They weren't that bad after all. And they doubt that it's a real that's the real thing i mean you know think about it powerful monarchies they get this sort of crap all the time someone who wants to claim that they're the long lost blah blah blah you probably heard the story of anastasia anastasia yes that was exactly who i was thinking of exactly so they doubt it but later in the 20th century when that whole dna business comes along and it's

tested against uh descendants of the royal family it's confirmed it is actually his heart so it is still preserved today wow yeah i did not know that well why do i know this i mean as i'm telling you this because your specialty is French history yeah well um we should probably start to wrap up we're creeping up on an hour here my how the time

flies yes it does okay um any uh anything from these two episodes that you think geez

definitely needed to we definitely hit some big broad yeah I got my questions answered I did too well hey kids that's what because we're here

for ourselves um no we really uh we hope you guys enjoyed this we know it hey dude hold on one thing i just want to mention real quick because i don't think we got this in there oh yeah right uh whiskey rebellion we did not talk about just not talk about the wish just the one thing i want to say um i believe cl pointed this out largest army george washington ever actually personally leads right oh yes ironically yes mr commander-in-chief of the whole continental army through the revolution and the biggest army he ever leads is actually during the whiskey rebellion during his presence which he leads himself yeah across the country yeah over 12,000

guys it's crazy right anyhow sorry just footnote there you go that's uh fun facts that don't make the script but come on footnote george is a badass continually all right this is something that you can look forward to with uh this sort of analysis looking back on previous episodes if you're enjoying this just go to history that doesn't suck.com and you know we've got all the icons top right corner i think right it'll hook you up with all things history all the social media oh that's right and And of course, we'd be remiss if we didn't say how grateful we were. Thank you for the support. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. We really do appreciate it. We notice. Yeah. I mean, again, I still think often about releasing the first episode and just thinking, who is even going to listen? And you definitely are so so thank you

yeah cial any last words i'll just reiterate the thanks it's pretty exciting to be a part of this and to watch it grow so yeah well okay guys join me in two weeks where we'll get back to telling a story will get back to telling a story. Thank you. more. Donna Marie Jeffcoat. Ellen Stewart. Bernie Lowe. George Sherwood. Gurwith Griffin. Henry Brunges. Jake Gilbreth. James G. Bledsoe. Janie McCreary. Jeff Marks. Jennifer Moods. Jennifer Magnolia. Jeremy Wells. Jessica Poppock. Joe Dobis. John Frugal-Dougal. John Booby. John Keller. John Oliveros. John Radlavich. John Schaefer. John Sheff. Jordan Corbett. Joshua Steiner. Justin M. Spriggs. Justin May. Kristen Pratt. Karen Bartholomew. Cassie Conecco. Kim R. Kyle Decker. Lawrence Neubauer. Linda Cunningham. Mark Ellis, Matthew Mitchell, Matthew Simmons, Melanie Jan, Nick Sechender, Nick Caffrell, Noah Hoff, Owen Sedlak, Paul Goringer, Randy Guffrey,

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