Hollywood Handbook - Tommy Orange, Our New Books Friend

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

The Boys welcome back TOMMY ORANGE to discuss his new book Wandering Stars. Want to call in? Email your question to [e-mail] (Ad-Free Episodes, Bonus Calls and Behind the Scenes): Patreon.com/HereToHelpPodVIDEO: Youtube.com/@HeretoHelpPodMERCH: heretohelppod.comINSTAGRAM: @HereToHelpPodTIKTOK: @HereToHelpPodIf you’re enjoying the show, make sure to rate We’re Here to Help 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts.Advertise on We’re Here to Help via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hey everyone, get tickets to see Hollywood Handbook live and live streamed in Los Angeles at the Dynasty Typewriter, Wednesday, April 24th at 7.30 p.m. Pacific Time. You can go to dynastytypewriter.com or if you're listening to the latest episode, the ticket link is in the description. Enjoy. And like are they allowed to you just hear the name and you go What now? You know I mean like okay What is it this time?

And with this guy it's like and let me guess it's another fucking book You know how cats make a certain noise when they've like got something? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, you hear them outside the door, you're like... And they think it's like really... they think it's nice for you. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, like they're singing to you. Yeah. Because there's the... can I do it? Like, so there's my cats outside the door, they want to come in or they want food or something or all,

and they're going, meow, meow. Now they've got something. Here's the sound. Yes. That's the exact one. That's the sound of got something. Here's the sound. Meow. Yes, that's the exact one. That's the sound of this email. That's this guest. That's the sound that my fucking computer makes

when the email comes in. That it's like, Mr. Books is back, wants to fucking talk about his books again. So it's like, yeah, it's not, yes, I'm glad you caught the idea or whatever, and it's like, yeah, it's not. Yes, I'm glad you caught the idea or whatever. And it's like in your jaws and you're going to drop it on my doorstep. But I don't know, be a little less like. Corny with it's Tommy Orange is here.

I'm the orange. Hey, guys. You wrote another book. What's next, dude? You wrote another one. Yes. Yeah. The most insanely typical thing of you. Mm-hmm. One of the least surprising,

most predictable moves in history. How long since the first one? Six years. Ooh. Breakneck pace. Six years. Deco edge. Is that what they call six year period?

No, is the paper Deco Ed? I've never heard of that. The jagged mountain pass. And I can see him. And I can see him. Adventure within. The second you say it, he goes blank because he's thinking Deco Latash. And I could see it on his face and no shame.

His memory palace. Hey, I'm a fucking red blooded American male myself, you know, it happens to be open season on my gender for quite some time, but the fact is, I also thought of Deco Latash. I was able to control myself a little more But anyway, dude Congrats

America. Yeah, the American flag is one thing. We don't place on the ground. The other is the hat pack hats He comes in here so the hat pack is still happening He did say that. He says, is partial view, have you been in the New York Times? Yeah. So has part of the hat. Did you think it was kind of a big deal?

Yeah, three quarter, three quarter angle, three quarters off screen. But three quarter angle of the hat in the New York Times. Who's wearing it? His past week. Zach Cherry's lovely bride. Yeah, dude. What's her name? Mrs. Cherry.

Mrs. Cherry. You know what? Cherry and orange are two of the colors featured on the fucking hat. Like, let's. Let's get some kind of collaboration going between you two. It's actually pretty cool. I'm getting off on the wrong foot with you and your attitude this episode so far has been kind of.

Well, we can say it. It's something to be desired. And I don't use this a lot, but it's a little cunty. It's fatal but like Why don't we why don't you in your own words the books called wonder he stars? It's about all the it's about dirty John All the people have been made famous by a laundry Just a low

$65 fee to get in and see what the podcasts are that they have there. Yeah, so it features a podcast at the center of the novel, actually. It's a book about podcasts. Okay. Yeah. Couple of friends meet TV writers

and they're just watching reality shows and bantering. And they think this might be a show. And start developing this thing. And pretty soon they have this idea. This thing, developing this thing. It's like a show About nothing okay that becomes a show about other shows Okay

This is the novel Okay, it's about friendship. I've really I misread this thing So I Totally missed that, but admittedly I scammed some of it. So. So it sounds familiar. You know what I mean? What's the wandering little bit like how the two bears one cave met? Am I crazy? No, Wondery stars.

Oh, it's Wondery stars. Wondery stars. Okay, so these guys are, they're on Wondery. Yeah, yeah. Okay, did you have anything in there about how they got on there? Yeah, like how do you get over there? Is this part of your research?

Did you ever like? It's fiction, so I can do whatever I want. You know, it's a novel. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, yeah want. You know, it's a novel. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. But just like, is there a story in the novel? Because I find your stuff to be fairly grounded.

I'm not saying it lacks imagination, but it seems pretty believable. And I would love, I'm having trouble crafting a narrative where two guys like you're describing are able to kind of get in there. Yes, and I saw a blurb that the book is by turns wondrous and shattering, and shattering I'm getting. Yeah, it's shattering my ass to pieces right now.

So they get enough guests on and sort of they eat up the ideas of the other guests' podcasts. Right, okay. So they grow enough guests on and sort of they eat up the ideas of the other guests' podcasts. Right, okay. So they grow in that way. Oh, like Kirby. And they get so big, they almost can't be ignored by a place like Wondery. Yeah, cause like, and I'll just talk about- Almost can't be ignored.

They nearly can't be ignored. It's so close to being unable to be ignored. I probably won't be ignored. Me and Fatal Attraction. So here's what happens to me when I have this podcast and people go like, oh yeah, do you work with a network or anything and I go, yeah, it's at Headgum and they go, oh. But this is what happens when you mention Wondry

you go, oh yeah, I'm doing it, yeah, it's being produced over at Wondry and they go, oh, oh. Yes, like, oh you? Oh, you're ass, huh? What? All right, Put her there. I get a handshake, a mid-conversation handshake.

All of a sudden, I've been reevaluated, I've demonstrated my value, and I'm squeezing palm. Well, this is all relevant to me. You may have noticed I got a little strap on my arm here and got my blood drawn today. Got a, I got my blood drawn today. I got a test,

and it did show up. I can attest to that. Positive on the test. It turns out I do have a novel in me. Yeah, yeah. I got one coursing through me. Mm-hmm. All I have to do is get it out. Is this related to the segment on blood tests

and personalities coming up? Is it related? Well, it involves a blood test. Yeah, I guess I, yeah, I can draw a straight line from one to the other. Yeah, we could connect it to that. A bunch of people responded like, oh, what his doesn't know is actually people do do that.

Did they really? I think there's a- Well, I guess I don't know because I don't read your fucking comments. I think there's a Japanese system where they actually organize kids by blood type. Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't want to put a, I didn't want to attach a culture to it. Yeah, I was running away from that, and a bunch ran through my head. Yeah, oh God. They're still going. I can't shut it off. It's like a swap machine,

but it just won't stop. Nobody kicked the nozzle off the faucet and it's just shooting out. It didn't say what the novel was about. Countries. That's another, oh now we gotta do another test to tell you what your novel's about. You know, I'm like this medical system.

Whenever you go and this is just, and this is it, right? We don't cure anything anymore. Yes. It's a course of treatment, right? It's maintenance and that's where the money is. And so it's like, okay, well this test came back positive. You do have a novel in you. Yes.

And it's like, okay, can you tell me what it's about? It's like, actually, we need a few weeks for the blood to refill. Yes. Which I'm like, how much did you take? Like, am I okay? Cause you look, they got these big jugs there. Oh yeah.

And they're like, we got to- And here I said big jugs around this guy. That I saw his face go blank again. I'm sorry. Containers for holding liquid. It's dangerous to mention it because he's, when you say that, he's internally aged thousands of years. That's how long he's been gone inside.

Sir, there is a part, oh, the two guys, they develop this storytelling piece that you can explore kind of stream of consciousness language and they just kind of like go into this abstract storytelling about nothing at the beginning of the show. It's a segment they eventually abandoned for some reason. But it's a real opportunity to get into language and you know, absurdity. Yeah.

An opportunity for who? For me as a writer to explore. Oh, okay. For you. Okay. They got it for somebody. Yeah, I would say that just like without obviously having read it or even understanding what you're talking about. Sometimes that kind of thing seems like an opportunity at first. And what you realize is that like there's there's no opportunity. There's only cost. Right. So, yeah, it's a bit of a bit of a dead end. Who's Kirkus? Talk about Kirkus for a moment.

The, the, the star Kirkus starred reviews. It's like the first people that, and the wonder stars got, it got a Kirkus star, But I heard recently that it's like students writing it and they pay them like $25 for the review, so it's not worth as much. And yet it holds this industry. Okay. They want you to think it's really Kirkus doing it. Yeah.

They're like, oh, it's Kirkus reviews, but it's like actually somebody else. It's rogerebert.com, you know what I mean? You kind of promised me that this was Kirkus. It's like I trust Kirkus. I'm only listening to, for a long time, I thought the city of Paris was writing a bunch of those until I really sat down and thought about it.

Or just one, just for one, but one really good one. Oh yeah, that it was, well, that it was getting longer all the time. Son of a bitch. Crawford doesn't want, he's here, he doesn't getting longer all the time. Son of a bitch. Crawford doesn't want, he's here, he doesn't want to be on the. That's true, I can't stop thinking about what he must be up to.

We asked him to be on the show, and he said no. Yeah, I don't know that he said no. He just didn't, he didn't take us up on it. Yeah, he demonstrated that the answer was no, by completely ignoring the question. I'm wondering, because I gotta get this novel out of me. Doctors say I need to get it out, like. They were trying to do a novelectomy today.

You're sure it's a novel? The test showed it, like not a children's book, because that could be. It's square. That's what they're seeing on the scan. It's almost about, they were just like, Oh, it looks like a, could be a good ass novel out there. They were like, most novels aren't this square, but they're heading that way. I mean, you've like, you're a part of the industry. They're getting squarer.

They're mostly rectangle. I know. But like the real good ones are square. part of the industry. They're getting square. They're mostly rectangle. I know. Like the real good ones are square. Mostly. This MF didn't even know Decal Edge is trying to tell me where. Now all of a sudden he's giving you shapes.

They, when I saw it, I had a big fat bass clef in there when they showed the scan and they said, Oh, wow. You got some powerful music inside you. So it's a scan. I don't want to die with the music inside me. You know what I mean? I want to get it out, but it's a scan. It's a blood test scan.

Well, it's confusing. This is just poking holes in everything. But maybe. We try to build things together on this show. Can you add, because what I've learned, it's the ones who don't wanna be on the show, that's who we really, like, that's who we really, they got some really good ideas.

Yeah, they, yeah, well, cause they're, cause they're starting from a place of honesty. Yes. Can we, Kevin, can you ask Crawford just what, tell him I got a novel in me, I gotta get it out. What should it be about? And if he wants to come in here and just say that,

is that okay? Yeah, it's okay with me, I just like, there's a decent amount of show left to do. We'll see what happens. Well, he can leave. I know, but if he's like. I just need a prom. If we jostle him, if he's calm, he's doing something

and then he gets like uprooted and then he's either hates or likes the experience of being in here, either one is probably gonna be pretty bad. So what would have been the. It's likely like Blue Frog. I would have said, I would have said, give me 10 more

minutes of, you know, just talking about what we saw in the scans. Well, I. What should we get into Tilapia? Or is that an example of something that we shouldn't mention when he comes in here? Because that'll get him going in a way that. Well, I mean, let's let's open it up

because obviously look, let's open it up because obviously, look, Tommy's here from out of town. He met my son, immediately started accusing him of having tilapia, of being near tilapia. Which he did, which like, I agree with you, he did have some tilapia his pockets It's a weather like does or whether it doesn't it's like you don't There's a whole the whole tilapia fillet does not fit in your pocket. You're also like a little kid your pockets are

Extra small, but the fact is break the ice. You know what I mean? Yeah a little bit of conversation. Just don't be like, tilapia. Like, he shot you down, Kev. He's having fun in the kitchen. Okay. So it's kind of a history of podcasts. Uh-huh. And modern times. And you know, that's part of what's interesting

about podcasts is it tracks. History and modern time. It tracks, you know, all these different phases of modern thinking and, and, uh, so the book allows me to, you know, through the vehicle of love between, you know, two guys that used to be super handsome and now are just less handsome, but still handsome. Sure. Yeah.

But almost not worth bringing up. One of the just intentionally shows it like such a weird style that it's like trying to look like a sort of like a henchman to a super villain in like a 90s movie. And then the other one, there's no intention, there's no choice, but nature's just taking them apart

before our eyes. What I wished in the book, it made me sad that like, cause you have the advent of like using cameras in the book, on the podcast, and it's right when they kind of stop being handsome, that the cameras go on. That shattered me. A lot of wasted time, where it was just radio. Yes.

Before they had faces for radio. Yes. They decided to turn the cameras on. Yeah. It was interesting sort of, you know, I'm trying to talk about aging and, you know, time. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was ironic, like I got it,

but I also was like, it was just frustrating. For me as a reader, it was just like painful and frustrating to go like, oh, I wish they'd filmed some of the earlier stuff and they were so full of life versus like right when the atrophy became visible that it was like now everything is documented on video. At higher resolution, like by the year.

Oh my God, yeah. Like you're there. I know, they're finding everything now. They're trying to wipe stuff off the screen. It's like, no, that's just on their face. And here's the other thing I noticed, not only that, but that even the style in which they were presented,

the way they were sitting and the layout somehow became less flattering, where it's like they maybe could have gotten away with the video with the original kind of format they were in. Like, just very unforgiving. And I thought, wow, this novel is cruel. I had him sitting on couches like as if like that's where you go to die. That's the position that you spend most of your end days on in front of the TV, on the couch.

So I chose couches intentionally as, you know, that's part of a commentary on, you know, modern American life and where we go to die. Yeah, yeah, it's certainly, I certainly continually die on on this couch Hey gang, it's Sean Clemens here to talk about Harry's razors and you know Harry's knows that life can be ridiculous and it's actually I'm sure a little more ridiculous when you live with that are married to a comedy podcaster who's like ridiculous and funny all the time. So

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And what did he say? He said, Oh my God. A negative, I guess the blood type. A negative. I, I think you might have your title. Having fun in the kitchen. No. Think you might have your title Having fun in the kitchen No, mm-hmm imagine you're at the airport you see like

Whatever how to be a bitch who don't give a fuck. Yeah, but help all the suck your ass who would and it says mm-hmm But who would name a book the same sound twice? It's like we, you said that already. That's true. That's true. I, yeah. Dumb. It seems like a typo, right? It's like a fucking mistake. I'd be only people would read that would be try hards like president Obama.

Right. Right. God. So there is this aspect of, uh, deconstructing that's part of the relationship on the podcast that the friends have that I think, uh, there's, there's a lot more to explore. And I think might actually be a good

territory to think about. Okay. There's more to explore. I don't I didn't explore that much in it. But there is, but you know there's more. Why? Just why didn't you? This is the thing with me, like the book where it's like it feels like even you're saying like I kind of did this, I didn't do this, I was thinking about this and it's like well, I mean, I guess it had been six years, but it's like you don't have to You know, I have to give anybody the book like you could have explored it more. What would you have done? It was a commentary on you know the distract ability of of people and the more noise

in the information that there is, who can think about the same thing for more than six weeks. There's this one thing they have that's really great. Um, uh, it's this premise that they're teaching people about like film. It's called movie manual. Okay. Hmm. That's good. That sounds okay. And they start off, there's another one that dies off, they do start off parroting movie advice. Yeah. And they even have this great run of language that starts the show. Yeah. And you know, it's kind of about

the fakeness of movie industry. Yeah. And also like a how-to on, you know, it's kind of about the fakeness of movie industry. Yeah. And also like a how-to on, you know, what goes on behind the- Funny shit. Yeah. Red carpet.

Sounds good, yeah. Behind the red carpet. But yeah, always. I never, yeah, I never, I always think about what's under it. But I never think about what's behind that carpet. Under's behind it, if your face Darin on it. That's true. Under's kind of behind it.

And let's face it, I am. Yes, so the names Clown, Shemance, and Day's Havenpod. Havenpod. Havenpod. Exactly. Day's Havenpod. Day's Havenpod. I've had a few of those at night That's just another day having pod for me Good reads. I

Don't I can't visit it They won't let you anymore Many your fans under fake names. Yeah All these accounts they finally tracked them all to the same IP address. Fucking Chris Cooper in the Bourne Identity headquarters. I'm not gonna make it up. You gotta figure out a way to get back on there, man.

I don't know how to make up fake names, as you can see from the character names that I chose in Wondery Stars. Yes, those names don't sound real. They don't sound like real names. Yeah, they sound really fake. Cl. They don't sound like real names. Yeah, they sound really fake. Clown is not a name that people have.

Clown, and it doesn't sound like the guy is a clown. It sounds like he's sort of a modern philosopher. Sounds like he's almost key home sense. At least the one we deserve today. Yeah. That he's actually, yes, because we do not have philosophers, preachers, yes, that have the same impact, that think about life and present it to you

in ways with these parables to allow you to observe kind of the minutiae and then extrapolate that out into like what your lived experience really is and means. And it's like, who's doing that? You know what I mean? This character, Pete. And it's like who's doing that you know what I mean this character Pete yes, oh like You have to be recognized at your own time

That's a requirement these days. Oh, let's go back and tell basically everyone that we now As you know a genius go back and tell them, sorry. Oh, Herman Melville that, yes, I'm sorry. You can't. Do you have to get a Kirk, a star your own time being the New York Times? It actually, our hat did get in there. And what I would say to Mrs. Cherry is no where the camera is. Yeah.

And this is like, and I get that you're new to it, but, and to Zach, I would say where the camera is. At all times. Yeah, this is like, and I get that you're new to it, but, and to Zach, I would say, Zach, you've dealt with the camera stuff. This is your fucking wife, dog. Like, just give her a little nudge and be like, hey, eyes over there. You know what I mean?

Like, just like, the camera's there, so make it look casual, don't look down the barrel, but just go ahead and give them the full logo. Please. And meanwhile, Zach is like, oh, oh good, she's looking adoringly at me. Uh-huh. Well, no, we can't see that.

Yeah, they're getting the full Zach and then she's like just arm candy, right? And it's like, this is the story should really be about her Just arm candy, right? And it's like, this is the story should really be about her and how she has a hat. Like that's what people care about. Is it, so is it, it's from Rat Pack and then just. Come on, yeah, sort of. It's a little of. Fucking guy, just like what now?

Here comes another book. What's your hat from? Yeah, what's your hat from beard from? Lord of the Rings, because you like books. Give me a fucking break, doggy doggy with your Lord of the Rings hat. I love that he's gonna be wearing a hat. He's always wearing a hat by the way.

Yes. That's like always a hat, right? But then we give him a hat. Plah, plah, plomp, flomp. Just drop the shit. What's this? I don't know what to do with it. Okay. I know that's not true.

I know you know what to do with it. I don't know, man. So can I have a book deal, please? They caught me because I was writing, I was writing a bunch of two star, three star just to balance it. Because if I'm doing it all five star, it's gonna be obvious. So between the fake names and the writing,

I didn't know how to write bad reviews. Okay. They just sounded weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me an example of a bad review. He doesn't know how to do it, but let's see. But give me an example of a weird one. Yeah.

Liked the pages, but didn't like what was on them. That's what DecoEdge does. But I've had that experience. That's what DecoEdge does, yeah. The edge is the adventure. You know? Yeah. The decal.

Take a brave soul to traverse the deckled edge. Harder to get hurt on it as well. Yeah. I, I know for me, when I was trying to juice the reviews on this podcast, I found it very easy to write bad reviews that I have felt like I had so much material there. Yes.

And then when I went to balance it out by putting, you know, more of the five star ones, I was tapped. I was absolutely spent. There was nothing in there. What is a bad five star review sound like? A bad five star review? Like a poorly written or confusing five star. Great phone.

This phone kicks ass, doggy. I can, like, make calls, sure. That's,'s like that's barely scratching the surface of what I could do Am I mine would say arrived on time high quality material People aren't aware of it. It's not radio. Those are the people that still think it's radio somehow. You know, I don't even know. I think they think it's like a physical product. Yeah.

Yeah. That's being delivered to them. Yeah, not same color as in photo. So I'd be like, you know, why did I write that about my own show? Great spelling. Yeah. Of the titles.

Yeah, which like, I guess is true. I mean, Kevin works really hard on the descriptions and we don't give him enough credit. And Kevin, the descriptions are really good good you did a really nice job and you've kept that up and that's right sweet Kevin and that's right it's not just novels and people rely on those people say okay people want to know which one what's going on gonna be about it better be something. Are they having a little fun with something, you know, they wanna know.

And so they do look at those descriptions and you work really hard on it, you do a great job, and it's usually spelled really well. And that's writing too, Tommy. There's not just one kind of writing. It's coming. My novel. It's about. My novel. It's about my New York.

It takes place, somehow Occupy is happening, but Hurricane Sandy is happening as well. And we're all, and we're all, 9-11, the specter of 9-11 is basically a character. Oh, the shadow looms, I can feel it on the page. Yes, but it's the absence of the shadow of those buildings that of the shadow of those buildings that is the shadow. And it's about, it's different guys,

and it's about how you can have a different, a separate story, but then it ends up, they end up talking to each other. With the other story, ends up seeing the other guy and they talk. They talk to each other as well. And they are brothers. Yes, yes. But we didn't know until they saw each other

and Mr. Trump is there as well. He's going into one of his buildings. The specter of him for sure. He's not there, but the absence of him at his own hotel is part of what is looming over the book. And this is, you know, and I left this out of my review, but like, this is what's missing a little bit. Where's like, I didn't recognize my New York

or any New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't have any Specters either. Honestly, I'm like, did I? You said it, yes. I was like looking back through it. I re-read the first 200 pages six times trying to find a Specter, back through it. I went, I re-read the first 200 pages six times

trying to find a Spectre, because I thought, well, there's gotta be a Spectre of something. And I just kept going back over it, being like, okay, maybe it's me, maybe I'm all fucked up, or like, or maybe it's like, there's a Spectre of a Spectre, and we've like gone another land deeper, and I was coming up completely empty handed.

Disappointing because I have spectered one. There is something at the end that's sort of foreshadowing or giving, you know, that maybe there'll be a sequel. Okay. They have to leave the Wondry family. Specter Gadget. Sure. Specterry family. Spectre Gadget. Spectre Gadget. Spectre Gadget.

So they have to leave the Wondry building. Well they end up in a totally different building. The podcast company and building. Okay. And it's kind of devastating. But it. For who? It just ends that way and I sort of built it in

so I could write. Someone has to care for it to be devastating. It just ends that way and I sort of built it in so I could write the receipt. Someone has to care for it to be devastating. Like someone somewhere on the planet has to give a fuck what happens to these two guys. It's just the friends and the friendship suffers because of it. It's them personally, yeah.

Let me ask you this, does it ever recover? I gotta know Jack. Does the friendship ever recover? Honestly, the sale, the first sale of the podcast that worked. Did they ever come back? Cause it was, it was from there, like that's the, like looking back, didn't seem like that big a deal at the time.

At that time it was like, oh, just a bump in the road. I didn't even realize. That was a Spectre. Sometimes you don't know what you're writing in. That's the Spectre. The Spectre of scripts. You didn't know it was a Spectre. I didn't, at the time.

The Spectre of the fucking spelling bee company. Like that guy. Geez, man. So what's next? More books? Fucking guy. Another book? Any other book? Might be good to have started to get going on the next book.

Have you done the audio book? I didn't do it. Other people did it. And it's done. Yep. Okay. Like, are you sure? Like it's like, it's nothing like it.

You think that's done? I mean, I listened to it. You honestly think that's done. You needed to pay more attention. You're just like other people did it. You really have to pay attention to this stuff. They did not do a good job, bro. They didn't do it.

They basically did. Whatever they did, that's not it. Yeah. Can we get, actually, I know he's not gonna wanna come in, but get my five-year-old who's outside in here and tell him that he should expect another book around the time he's entering the workforce. Here's something-

Fucking guys, I didn't even start it. Here's a noise they make a lot in the audio book. And let me know this is in the actual book because I didn't read it in the actual book. A lot of times they're going, ha ha ha hee, ha ha ha. I did read some complaints about people not being able to tell their voices of the two voiceover actors Apart from each other. Yeah. Well, yeah and and it's it's

There are not two voiceover actors It's what it's clearly one guy He's kind of trying to do different voices, but like. It's the same fucking guy. It's so clearly the same bucket guy. There's really nothing there. And, and I would hear this sound. Ooh, like every six pages. So that I got the, it was very weird.

Sometimes he's rushing through it and going like, and then the guy, he goes over here. But other times he's just reading to himself. And he'd go like, and then the guy went in there, whoo, whoo. Yes, and he's like distracted by it. It's like long, long pauses. Well, I think he's just reading.

And then he goes like, whoo, whoo. I mean, I guess he's enjoying it like Which great? Maybe really want to know what he was reading but or was there like a picture there or something because it was like yeah It was these long puzzle. Hmm. Okay. All right kind of nice and And then get back into what was clearly the text, but just like, I don't know, I thought it was not done. You gotta be in the room.

You have to, like every step of the process. This is your creative life. It was some kind of interpretive decision that was made when I wasn't there. Just trying to do the audio version of the absurdity in the language that they couldn't quite capture. I didn't agree with it, but they'd already done it by the time I heard the sounds. The sounds. By the time he'd heard the sounds. When they said next page, was that to us,

the listener or to themself? I heard that actually, that actually, maybe that's what they're talking about with the two different voice actors. Cause that did sound like somebody else. That was somebody else going, yeah, I heard next page and then I heard, I would hear other comments where it's like, boy, there's a lot of this left.

Yeah, yes. And they would go, the other voice would go next page and the guy would go, really, okay. It's like he didn't know he was supposed to be like turning the pages and reading it. He'd go, okay. We're still on this, huh? This was actually a part, so a part of the novel

was this decision that part of the podcast was to bring in. How many parts are there? There's a lot of parts. Jeez. It feels like it. The decision to bring in producers as personalities. Okay. And so the producer thought,

what if there was an assumption that people didn't know what to do at the end of a page? Okay. And this is a producer decision that's playing on the idea of producer personalities entering the podcast in the book. So in the audio book, the producer enters with this was any idea as a personality and thinks that people don't know what to do when they finish a page. And so it actually does say next page in the book.

That was the producer who did that. Okay. I fuck with that. That's actually kind of dope meta Lynchian. And what I like about that is if you start developing and understanding with the reader that the producer is gonna be coming in on saying, and saying next page on every page, that's words.

Oh God. And you don't have to do, that means you don't have to do those. You know what I mean? Must be so nice to get to the end of the page and then it's just like, okay, I don't have to do, these ones I don't have to do. Yeah, there's only a little bit of space left.

Let's just pull the trigger on the next page part of this. So nice. That's fucking dope. So, I guess like, At the end it doesn't say stop reading. That was to leave open the sequel. Oh. Uh-huh.

So you don't know whether to turn the page, stop reading, you're just left wondering. Okay. No, yeah, I mean I crashed my car. Because I just was like so fucked up off, like I had been hearing next page, I had been getting told what to do, then the guy stopped reading, but I was like,

do I stop reading? That I started like, just like smashing at the console. I think that's like, that's what was confusing. Yeah, and it made me crash. Everything had been done for me up to that point, sort of. But there's- And maybe sue your ass. Maybe crash and sue your ass. Maybe crash and sue your ass. Sorry.

Hope you enjoy the lawsuit, buddy. You just got served because it is irresponsible and it's all in the service of the almighty dollar and greed because you want to leave it open for the sequel. I just have the sequel start with start reading again. Like, did you think of that? Or even call the book that. And don't answer, because no, you didn't.

Start reading again. That's the name of the book. Ooh, Hayes, that could be your book. That could be my book. Oh, you just fucking swoop in. And that's to this entire generation. Mm-hmm. It's my- Start reading again.

It's my love letter to them and also my warning to this generation. It's called reading a book and Hayes' book. We're lost in the wilderness. A book. A beacon. Hark. It's Hayes' book.

A light silo upon the shore. The reason, he's his book. A light silo on the shore. The reason, the reason his is a square too. It's all one part. Yeah. It's all one part. It's one part. Except for the, there's two different parts of it. Just two sided.

Yeah. And it's forwards and backwards. It's in two pieces. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's like, oh no, backwards it's in two pieces Mm-hmm Yeah, it's like oh no, I have to write two entire books Six years apart just come just for one book. That's it two pieces Just read a two-piece book and you can start anywhere in the book That's what's cool about it

One of the things that's cool about it other cool thing about it. My friend wrote it Are he wants to it's inside him. It's inside me, it has to come out today. See if you can get Crawford in here now. So they take the blood out and then they scan it with, I'm trying to figure out what the scan is doing. Because the way they scan is they take a picture with a really old camera on the blood.

The blood shows you, and I understand, you're just a writer, and so some of this the way they take a picture with a really old camera. And I understand you're like, you're just a writer. And so like some of this scientific stuff, this sort of lost on you, they can use the blood to see everything that got in your body. Cause your blood is from in there and there's a code inside your blood that from in there and there's a code inside your blood that shows you if any objects made their way into your body that need to.

And it can, it can see what your number is. It can say what your number is. Like how many people you did it with. It can see your number on the scan. So I guess don't get it done if you're ashamed. Whether it's because it's too many or not enough. And don't be, and don't be. And don't be ashamed.

But don't get it done if you are, but don't be. But if you are, they're gonna know. But don't be. So just be aware. But don't be, nothing to be ashamed of. Unless the number's crazy. But some are crazy. Some of the numbers, it's like obviously don't be aware, but don't be nothing to be ashamed of. Unless the number's crazy, crazy, but. Some are crazy. Some of the numbers it's like obviously don't do it

because yeah. I am a little stalled out on what the sequel is gonna be. Uh-huh. So I made, I may need to. Stalled out? A podcast with two guys talking? Sort of at one point was about the entertainment industry and you feel stalled out buddy if you can't feel the momentum behind

that I'm sorry that is your issue he's not coming trouble with the curve again huh we tried to negotiate I said would you like to come in this studio he said no and then I said what about and then he said anything you guys want I'm not gonna do Let me save it seems like you have a job to do back in there He's drawing let me help you do it. Did he find the blue? No, he's drawing the woods, so he's using browns and yellows and greens No, he's drawing the woods, so he's using browns and yellows and greens.

Oh, and you gave him this bunk-ass blue. Yeah. All the kid was, he's like, look, I'm gonna be chill, like, I'm a little kid, I know you guys got work to do. All I really need is like a blue marker, and she's like, oh, do you want the most fucked up one you've ever seen in your life?

It was a really bad blue. Yeah, it was, it sucked. Even Tommy could tell. It was like a dead blue whale blue. It did look like it was like somehow decomposing or something. It was really fucking distressing. Well, I'll try one time and then we'll wrap it up.

What's, what's an interesting word in your book? What's the most interesting word? In my book? So many, huh? But it's always good to know what it is, and I think every author does on some level, right? And it's supposed to be a secret that they never share But they all know the most interesting word and Tommy's thinking should I share my word? I? Won't share it with just so there's a whole section where they the friends are super bitter about

People thinking podcasts only started when Conan O'Brien yes made one. And there's a whole section where they go into vaudevillian humor. So I think vaudevillian is probably one of the most interesting. Vaudevillian. Yeah. Okay. Because Conan's like a sort of a vaudevillian character.

He's something of a vaudevillian himself, isn't he? In my life. Hey, Crawford. You hear haze? What's the final word of your book? Bye.