Home Care U - How to Build Referral Relationships When Donuts And Cold Calls Aren't Cutting It Anymore (Gabrielle Pumpian)

Episode Date: December 3, 2023

Referral sources are the foundation of most large agencies' revenue. But as any experienced marketer will tell you, establishing these relationships has gotten more and more competitive. Here's how 3x home care marketer Gabrielle Pumpian is handling the challenge. Enjoying the show? Send me a text and let me know!Learn more about Careswitch at: careswitch.comConnect with the host on LinkedIn: Miriam Allred This episode was produced by parkerkane.co

Hey, welcome to Home Care U, a podcast made by the team at Care Switch. Nobody went to school to learn how to run a home care agency, so we're bringing the education to you. Join our live audience by going to careswitch.com slash homecareu or listen on your own time wherever you get your podcasts. Home Care U is hosted by myself, Miriam Allred, and Connor Koons of Care Switch. Enjoy the session. Welcome to Home Care U is hosted by myself, Miriam Allred, and Connor Koons of CareSwitch. Enjoy the session. Welcome to Home Care U.

Thanks for being with us today. We have a guest who I'm pretty excited to talk to. I think this will be a really fun and interesting and engaging set of episodes we're about to do. Just a couple things before we get started. First off, this will be old news to those who have joined or listened before, but Home Care U is both a live class and a podcast. If you want to join live, ask questions, you can do so for free by registering at careswitch.com slash homecareu. That's U as in university. Or if you would rather listen on your own time, you can

always listen to the replays after the fact as podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts, just look up Home Care U, again, U as in university. So today we are excited to welcome Gabrielle Pompey into the podcast. I guess first off, just thanks for joining and welcome. Thanks, Connor. It's so good to be here. Thanks. Our topic today will center around sales and marketing and home care. And specifically, we're going to try and give like an advanced referral marketing take here of like, what do you do if you understand the basics of referral marketing and sales, but you're still sort of confined to like the donuts and cold calls. And you don't feel like you're making traction. You don't really understand,

or you're having a hard time finding what to do when you continue to visit referral partners. And you don't feel like anything is happening from it. And it is getting more and more difficult to justify why you're there. These are problems that happen with lots of home care marketers, regardless of experience level. And although we'll try and kind of give some information that will be useful to all levels of knowledge and experience, I think the place where we'll really sit for this episode today is for those who are already somewhat confident, but really want to level up, this episode will be for you. So I guess to start off, do you want

to give us your background, kind of how you came to be working where you are, what your story is in home care and that kind of thing? Sure. So I have been in home care sales for off and on 15 years. My first healthcare jobs at the front desk of an inpatient rehab center at a hospital here in San Diego. From there, I was introduced to what outside sales in healthcare looked like. There were vendors that would come in and market and meet with case managers and social workers. And one day, one of those people came in who was working for a home health company and said, have you ever thought about sales? And do you know what private duty caregiving is? And I said, no, and no. But he said, there's a company that is hiring. You should apply. So I was young. I was pretty fresh out of college. And I applied and interviewed. And I had a pretty

strong background in customer service. They took a chance on me. And that was with a company called Accent Care, which is a pretty large national company now in the country. I worked with them for about three years and then was given an opportunity to work as a director of admissions for a skilled nursing facility, which gave me a really great education and understanding of what the post-acute care world looks like and how patients move from a hospital setting into a nursing home and rehab facility. But that world is all based on insurance, and it wasn't the best fit for me. I really enjoyed having more intimate conversations with families around how they can solve for

keeping their loved one at home with the right care in place. So I left that job and started working at a company called Mission Healthcare that had three service lines, hospice, home health, and home care at the time. And moved from a sales position in that company, grew the revenue quite a bit, and then migrated into an operations manager role. So now I got to learn the back end of a home care business. Operated in three counties. So I learned all about California labor laws and what a P&L was and what healthy margins look like and not healthy margins and had a staff and kind of all the back end that I really hadn't had an opportunity to learn about with my home care sales role. And that was great learning,

but the company decided to dissolve the home care division and really just focus on the home health and hospice. So again, I was given an opportunity to change and that's when I found home care assistance, now called The Key. And I worked with them in their whole office for six and a half years. I think I had my most growth and how to kind of level up from a kind of basic sales and marketing liaison to one of the top sales folks in the country at the key. And then just about six months ago, I decided to take a leap and leave the big national corporation and start a brand new company. And that is Cheer Home Care. And we are a boutique home care agency located in La Jolla,

California and servicing San Diego County. Thanks for sharing. So what I'm hearing is that you have a bit of experience in home care marketing. One thing that I've kind of found it fun to ask in this space, because most of us did not really plan to be in home care a long time before we joined, we kind of found different ways to it and ended up in it is what would your, like, let's say, 15 year old self say if she could see the role and the line of work that you're in today? I think she'd be very proud. I have found a passion for what I do. And I think that that's kind of rare. I love helping educate people and having kind of hard conversations and making them feel heard. And also like they can relieve some of their stress and burden by providing the caregiving

solution. But when I was 15, I was working as a hostess at a fine dining restaurant attached to a winery in Healdsburg, California, where I grew up. I had a pretty thin skin then. I think one thing that sales really teaches you if you stick with it is that you can be okay with rejection and move on to the next thing that you are not a good fit for everybody in every situation. And some people are going to like you and some people are not going to like you, but it's how you kind of move forward through that and not give up. So I can recall when I was 15, you know,

getting yelled at by some customer who is upset that their table wasn't perfect or, you know, and I would cry and just feel so bad about it. And now, you know, if I lose a client or I don't, you know, land a new case, or I hear from the referral source that they have another agency that they prefer to work with, I take that as an opportunity to one, learn, you know, what is it about that agency that you like? Like what makes it work for you? And kind of glean information about what is important to that particular referral source. Or two, I just say, okay, there's plenty of fish out there and I can find, you know, another opportunity. So I think resilience and I'm pretty proud of where I've come from that 15 year old girl. That's cool. That makes lots of sense. And yes, like the idea that the customer service

experiences you were gaining at that time probably did help build the resilience that we all know that it takes to be successful in sales. So good for you. Thanks again for being willing to share your wisdom and experience on here. I think you have a lot to give. So I guess to start things off, like what does your general approach look like as far as how you're approaching the typical referral partner, what subsequent visits look like, and how you grow the relationship over time? Okay. There's a lot in those questions. So just kind of go slowly through. I think, you know, sales is more relationship building. Especially in home care, what we do is not very transactional. Just to earn somebody's trust takes time and it takes energy. I think you have to know that.

You can't expect to walk into an account um you have something great to offer but there could be 25 people who can offer the same thing to you so like I said it's it's asking questions it's getting to know um the people that you're trying to work with and glean business from on a personal level but keeping it always professional. So I would say the first step is to really prospect your territory or your area that you're servicing. A lot of times, a larger company will have a county like San Diego, and it'll be split into certain territories. And then within those territories, there are viable accounts and there are not viable accounts. And one of the mistakes that I made early on was I would be

spending my time in places that really didn't have the best referrals for me, and it would be a waste of time. And then I would be disappointed if I wasn't getting business. So there's a lot of research that should be done before you even go knocking on anyone's door. There's data that you can collect from the CMS website, the Center for Medicare and Medicaid. You can find out which are the best skilled nursing facilities and hospitals in your area. And then within those accounts, you can even dig deeper into what percentage of those populations are having dementia and Alzheimer's. We know that in home care, clients who have cognitive impairment can be some of our best and longest lasting, which is of value to your company.

Within a hospital, there's going to be different departments and divisions and specialties. So I think that my first tip would be to really do your due diligence and research in your market. And part of that is not only finding data online, but also if you're coming in as a new sales rep into a company that's already been established, look at the historical data. Where has this company been getting their business from? Who are the accounts that have referred? Who are the accounts that have stopped referring, but they were referring? So I would say that learning from the historical data of a company that you're coming into, and again, diving deeper and asking questions to the people who have been there the longest is a great way to kind of narrow your field versus just kind of Googling all the skilled nursing facilities in your area and then just, you know, going out and pounding the pavement.

Thirdly, I would just say that who else in your area is working these accounts that you've narrowed down? Co-marketing or talking with home health and hospice agencies can be a great way to figure out, you know, where do you get clients? Where are the case managers the nicest and the most open to meeting new reps? Would you be willing to bring me in there and do a warm introduction? So there's a lot that you can glean before you even go into an account. So one follow-up question from one of the first things you said is when you're researching to decide who to even try to talk to, what would be some things that you would look for that would be signals that they are not worth your time? Well, in home care, most of our business, at least the companies that I've worked for, come from private pay. So I would unfortunately have to narrow down some of the zip code and demographic.

And you can find that information. If you've been in your market a while, you should probably know which zip codes have people who can afford home care. So I would start there. I would also look up other providers in those specific areas. Like in San Diego, it's a huge county, right? And demographically, there are a few pockets that have a high population of wealth and a large population of retirees and older adults. And so I'm focusing my time there, not because I don't want to help other areas, because I certainly do. But I have goals. Right. I have a I have a mission. I have a paycheck I need to earn. I have commission I want to earn. And so where am I going to narrow my playing field to the demographic of potential clients and then the people that serve those clients? So seniors typically they don't like to go very far for their needs. Right. They frequent the local grocery. Usually their financial planner or attorney may be within

the vicinity of where they live in. I find that there are pockets of the community like La Jolla, like Coronado, Rancho Santa Fe, that where we get a lot of our clients that all stay within those communities. So I want to become very well known in those communities that are very centered around where the clients live. That makes sense. Yeah. Thanks for that. Go on with, I guess, your larger overview of it. Yeah. I also think one of the most important things is having intention with every single one of your interactions. Just like you probably wouldn't like someone coming to your door that really just wanted to come in and say hi and not ask you questions. That's kind of a waste of your time unless

there's an intention. So one of the things that my old sales leader taught me was to have like a pre-call plan. So taking that, I've done all my research. I've even maybe called the community to ask the names and maybe get the emails of the people that I'd like to meet with that I know have referability. I am spending half an hour before I walk into the account and I have three or four questions that I've handwritten. I'm old school. I like to handwrite things. I've processed in my brain and I'm walking in often to a scheduled meeting, which is also a huge tip and not just cold calling. But I'm walking in with three or four questions that will help me gauge one, you know, who this person is, you know, what, what do they like, not what kind of coffee they like, but you know,

what do they like sports? What are they, do they have kids kind of a little bit about them that you can kind of lean on and then asking some questions around how, how often are they referring to home care? Do they already have a few agencies that they prefer to work with and why? What kind of experience have they had referring to caregiving? What's worked? What doesn't work? How do they like to be communicated with? If you get that opportunity, you know, follow up is a whole nother topic that we'll talk about. But having an intention for your meeting, because nobody likes their time to be wasted. And you don't want your time to be wasted. And I think

that that, that kind of gives you those questions give you direct meaning to be there. And then also kind of gets you in and out. And so you both can carry on with your day. So a couple questions here, I guess, first one, like, I really like your point about preparing before you go. Because I think it can get easy to just sort of like wing things. And especially if you've done this a lot, it can be a temptation just to kind of go for it. So I appreciate that. If you're asking them your questions about like, are there agencies they're already referring to? And they say, yeah, there are several. We love them. They're great. And it doesn't feel like there's like much of a gap, you know, and I would imagine this is often what's happening. How do you respond to that? What do you then start asking or what's your thought process

from there? Yeah. So, I mean, as we know in home care, a lot of times, especially the social workers, people coming out of SNFs and hospitals, they usually refer to the companies that are less expensive because they're uncomfortable having the price conversation, which is understandable. They really shouldn't be having the price conversation, but their patients ask and so they have to answer. And two, it's often an agency that can do more than just one thing. So there's a lot of placement and home care companies that are kind of together under one umbrella here in San Diego that I know that a lot of the acute care setting facilities like to use because if it's not helpful for the patient to go home with home

care, they can't afford it. The same person can offer them a placement solution. But if that's not what the social worker is looking for and they say, well, I like XYZ home care because they don't have any hourly minimums. Something that I would say to that and ask as a follow-up would be, well, how do you know if that patient that you've sent home with them is getting consistent caregiving? What kind of follow-up are you doing to ensure that they don't return back to your facility and readmit? And often,

if an agency doesn't have a minimum number of hours, those caregivers are like a revolving door and the customer is really not going to have continuity and a good experience, especially in the long term. I would ask the social worker, you know, what have you heard feedback wise from your patients who have gone home? What has their experience been like? And let them answer that question. Oh, everyone is happy. Well, even the best home care companies, I don't think everyone is happy all the time. So, and then the second one is, is the price, right? Oh, I like XYZ home care because they're only in our market $32 an hour, which is pretty low. I would say to that, you know, what additional support is that agency

offering your patient to ensure that they're getting a great service? Well, a company who's paying minimum wage and is charging low, again, is probably going to have a high turnover of caregivers. So in the long term, is that really the best fit for someone who wants continuity of care how burdened is the family member or the family caregiver with having to manage the caregiving staff the turnover the training the orienting the schedule changes the call-offs all of that whereas a company like ours we incorporate care management into every single one of our clients and that's included in the hourly rate so yes yes, we're about $5 an hour higher, but we take so much off of the family caregiver, the primary caregiver's plate, because our care managers are overseeing, introducing, orienting,

doing a detailed assessment, creating a specific care plan, communicating with the family, like doing all of these things to ensure that the service is really fluid and good and great. I'm hearing lots of great responses to them already having some agency partners they work with. Are there things that you might hear from them when you ask about their agency partners they work with. Are there things that you might hear from them when you ask about their agency partners that would cue you to be like, this is probably not worth my time, or this is a lost cause? I mean, if they say I rarely or hardly ever refer to home care, one, that probably tells me their patient demographic can't often afford home care.

Two, it may not be the right type of account. Like if you're calling on a board and care, a small, you know, residential care facility, that's probably not going to be a good use of your time because they have very high staff to patient or resident ratios. There's not going to be a lot of need for one-on-one. So if someone says, I just don't refer to home care very often, you could ask a follow-up to say, is that because it doesn't come up very often? Or tell me a little bit more about why. Don't you have people who are going home? And then it also could mean that you haven't qualified the account well enough, which again, that's, you know, the demographic and making sure it's people, it's the right population that you're trying to serve. That makes sense. Before we move on, because I think this is like a really key topic,

as far as the topic of how to qualify accounts, is there anything more that would be useful to discuss there for people or should we go on? I think that's probably the biggest time waster, like I said, is going into accounts that aren't qualified. In home care, especially in my experience, there's not a lot of quality accounts. So again, it's really fish where the fish are and not where you think they may be. There are probably less than 10 skilled nursing facilities that I frequent in San Diego County, but there are probably 300 countywide. There are many, many, many senior living communities, but I frequent and work with a handful because I'm also really trying to find clients that want care long-term. That's my goal. I don't want to be a band-aid. We don't want to be

a band-aid solution. We don't want to be just a quick phone call in a desperate situation for a hospital case manager that just needs to get their patient home and a ride to do that and like a one-time shift. There are companies out there that do that, that I think are great resources for the hospital, but that's not where I spend my time looking for business. I look for business in places that not only have the need, but this is the most important. This is what I would say for qualifying is finding the staff, the influencers in the building or in the account that get it, that are on your side to help people live better wherever they may be at home or in their apartment. That goes with assisted living communities or independent living communities.

The director of wellness, the director of nursing, who's responsible to keeping patients safe and healthy in their apartments, can't do that with the limited staff that they have on their floors. So if they understand that partnering and referring to an outside provider is the best way to keep my residents safe and in their apartments, and essentially the amount of people in the building, I can't remember what that's called, the census, as full as it can be, then you are, you're solving their problem. And that is the best question to ask. And I didn't mention that, but the best question to ask a referral source is what keeps you up at night? What are your pain points? Is it that your patients keep going to the hospital and you can't track them and then you're afraid you're going to lose them to another community or something like that. Or the fact that you have low staff in your building and your caregivers are getting burnt out and they're calling in sick and you don't have

anyone else, you know, to care for your residents. And so your ratios are going down. Well, you can come in as a home care provider and offer some solutions only if you know what the pain points are. If you don't ask, you're never going to know. Love it. I swear that I'm about to let us move on to like the next topics and like be done with the qualification thing. But I guess one last thing is like, since I know our listeners and like what they are like looking for and like what they're going to ask, if you don't mind just briefly recapping like the bullet points of like, they are like looking for and like what they're going to ask. If you don't mind just briefly recapping like the bullet points of like, what are like the factors that you use for qualification? Okay. So do your research, know your demographics of your community,

fish where the fish are. So using, if you don't know, if you're brand new, using historical data from your business, if you don't know if you're brand new, using historical data from your business, asking other, you know, key influencers and players in the community where they go and why. Do your research in calling the account before you walk in, getting the specific names, emails, contacts for the people in the building or at the account that have referability. And that could be anyone. That could be the activities director, could be the director of nursing, the executive director. Don't just think that because someone's title is wellness or nurse that they're the only ones that have

the ability to refer to you. You should find out kind of who those key directors are of the departments within the account. And then pre-call plan. So have an intention for your meeting, come up with two to three to four questions around what you want to ask. One being, what is your biggest pain point? One being, do you refer to home care? And so you can know if it's worth going back. And then just co-marketing too, getting a warm introduction. That's a great way to start. So going to your home health and hospice partners,

they're the ones that get to go into the facilities. They have a patient to follow up with. They're usually going there on a frequent basis to say, hey, can I tag along with you this Friday? Can you call me the next time you have a patient at XYZ Hospital? I'd really like to go in there and meet a case manager with you. So kind of being tactful with how you're spending your time. before you had talked about value and making sure that you have a reason to talk to them and always a reason to be there. I think one question people always have is that like, yeah, like the first visitor to there's like a very obvious reason to be there. And that is to introduce yourself,

to do discovery, things like that. As the relationship continues, it can become harder to have a reason to be there for every visit. How do you approach that problem? So assuming that you've narrowed down, you know, your top 25 to 50 accounts that you're focusing on, your value is in your follow-up and in your communication. I would say that's the number one thing that you can provide. So if at your first meeting, you were asked to find out a piece of information that you didn't have the answer to at that meeting, come back, calendar a week later or a few days later with the answer to that question. The worst thing is if you go to a meeting and someone asks you for something and then you forget or you don't follow back up, there goes your credibility. So take something from

your initial meeting and have a reason to follow up. And if they don't give you a question that you can't answer, then you need to ask a question to figure out how you can come back and solve. Do you have a reliable mobile podiatrist that comes into your senior living community that you're like, oh no, our one guy, he just retired. Let me see if I can find you a couple resources. Boom. Like it has nothing to do with home care, but you're being resourceful and you're helping them with a pain point that they have.

Also with senior living communities, and I keep mentioning that because they can be great revenue producers. I think a lot of people move into senior living communities, think that they have everything that they need in one place, right? It's like a cruise ship on land, but what they don't have is a one-to-one care provider. And they don't have someone at their beck and call when they need to get up and use the bathroom, but they're a fall risk. And so again, we become a huge value add to the administrators of those communities because we're keeping their patient or their residents safe at home. So within those communities, you know, find out

the staffing, you know, are you having trouble with your staffing? Are there things that we can help you with? I mean, home care companies don't love supplemental staffing work, but it can be a temporary fix and a way to build trust and rapport with the community so that they will then use you for one-on-one support. But you also have to ask for that business and not just be used as a supplemental staffing company, which I've gotten caught up in before. And then secondly, the activities department. I mean,

what better way to provide value than to actually get in front of the residents and get to know them by providing a stimulating, engaging activity. And the sky's the limit with that. I have done everything from taking my grandmother's mandel bread recipe, which is like a biscotti an eastern europe european biscotti and i did a cooking class at a senior living community around hanukkah to like talk and teach them how to make mandel bread that has nothing to do with caregiving or you know enriching the brain or anything like that but then you can also do so pick my point is pick something that you're comfortable doing that you're good at you could could lead a karaoke night. You could, you know, some people have dogs or animals that they can bring in as like a recreational therapy type thing. There's so many things that you can do that

don't have to do with home care, but that show that you're showing up for that account. And when the executive director walks by a room where you're leading an activity and they see all their residents all happy and engaged, I mean, boom, there's a win-win right there. You're building credibility. You're also doing something really fun and meaningful, and you really important, which is that if you're doing these relationships right, it sounds like it becomes this ongoing problem solving together, where you're kind of continually asking questions, you're answering their questions, you're seeking out the next questions to ask together to figure out what the right partnership is and like how that should look to provide the best care possible. And I think it sounds obvious when you say it out loud that way,

but I don't know that we always think of the job of a home care marketer as being like an ongoing co-problem solver. Is that fairly accurate? Absolutely. It's being a resource. It's being a problem solver. It's communicating and showing up. It's being proactive. I think that you show your value by thinking and showing that you're looking outside of the box of a scenario. Oftentimes, an easy question to ask when you're in a meeting with an executive director of a senior living community is, do you have any of your residents out at the hospital or at the rehab center right now? I would be happy to go say hello, bring them a little plant, let them know that you're thinking of them, and then help find out any information about the discharge. Not because you want them as your client, because they're going to need home care. They may. There's a pretty high chance they will.

But that executive director can't leave the building all the time and their nurse may not be able to either. And so just just even offering to say, you know, I really want to help you get your resident back because you're telling me that you're stressed out about your occupancy and your census is low. Like what else, what can I do to help you? I think that that can go a long way. Something that I didn't mention too that I want to is asking your internal team, your operations team to let you know when one of your clients is hospitalized or in a sniff. That is a value add to the family that you're going in and you're, you know, seeing them in the hospital. It gives you an opportunity to go introduce yourself to the case manager or social worker and let them know that this is your client. Don't be referring them to another agency because they're already yours and you're here showing up to help figure out the discharge plan. I think that a lot of times

sales are bifurcated and I don't think that that model works very well. We have a stand-up meeting every single morning where I ask, is anyone in the hospital that I need to know about? What is the discharge plan? Oh, we don't know yet. Let me go and find out for you. And now I have a reason to go into a facility that I couldn't get into otherwise. I think it's using your internal team as a way to also give referrals to your referral partners. You know, who, who's, which client has had any recent falls? Are any of our caregivers worried about, you know, their changing cognition? Could we refer in a geriatric care manager? Could we refer in a home health provider? So it's, I'm always looking for ways

to refer back out to my community partners and my referral partners, because you have to give to get. And often I can get that information and those opportunities from my internal team if I ask. Something I'm hearing is the importance of understanding like the communications preferences and also just the internal processes of your referral partners. Talk to me a little bit about that. Yes, that is a big thing. So it's a great way to have intentional follow-up at your next meeting. So maybe the first meeting at a senior living community, you're getting to know the referral people, the directors, and getting to know what their paying points are. And then the second meeting, you can come in and you should schedule it. You shouldn't just drop in.

You should always schedule meetings. That is like also a number one piece of advice. Nobody likes to be interrupted throughout their day. Like most people are just so busy. So schedule a meeting and come in there and say, if we got an opportunity to service one of your residents, tell me what the requirements are that you have for outside agency providers. Most of these communities, especially in California, I can only speak for California, they have regulations that they have to follow for their licensing. And so that means that we

as an agency, if we get a client opportunity, we have to provide the community with the caregiver's registration with the state, their TB tests, and a few other pieces of documentation. Some communities are very strict and that the caregivers have to be registered, pre-registered or pre-associated with that community before they can even come on campus. So if you're going into XYZ community and you want the business and then you get a referral, but in order to come in, your caregivers have to have all these steps done ahead of time. What are you going to do? Now you can't service that client. You kind of look like an idiot. So it's really important for

you to understand. I mean, you know, it's really important to understand what these processes are in order to be able to get business and maintain business in the communities. There's one community in San Diego that we are working with that it could be a full-time job, the amount of back-end work that has to be done to get caregivers approved. And then now we're waiting for a client. And so you have to know what the process is. You have to do the process well, and you have to hold your internal team accountable. Because when you get that first referral, it's go time. And you got to make sure that every step is done right.

And so that you hold your credibility. Also with geriatric care managers, we get a lot of business from geriatric care management firms, and they are very specific with how they like their communication. They often like to have copies of the care plan. They often like to develop the care plan that our caregivers follow with our care manager or with our staff. They have certain protocols for how they need to be communicated with throughout the case when something happens, when a schedule changes. They often want schedules emailed to them, the last day of the month for the following month. So again, great opportunities to have intentional sales calls, just understanding what people's preferences are and what their processes are. Beyond directly asking them, are there things that marketers can

do to learn the kind of general processes of a referral partner or type of referral partner? Or is it basically just coming down to asking them these things? It's just asking. I think everyone's a little bit different. I just wouldn't make any assumptions. And it gives you an opportunity to ask them, let them tell you, and then you ask for clarification if you're not sure. It's a good opportunity for the salesperson to bring in like two to three referral partners into their office and have a roundtable discussion around, you know, what are the best ways of communication? You know, you're also, you could be introducing people to other providers, whatever way, you know, it doesn't have to be a one-on-one, but you can, you know, you can kind of make it fun if you're new and you're trying to get to know people. But I think what I've learned is every

senior living community even has their own process and some don't have any. And some, if they don't have any, when I ask them what their process is, they're like, oh, we should have a process. And I'm like, oh, I just helped you open up a can of worms. But yeah, for California licensing, if you're a licensed community, you could get audited. And if the auditor says, who's that caregiver wearing a cheer polo and you don't have our documentation on file, you know, that's that could create some problems. So you want to be proactive for sure.

We should have a process is something that I hear fairly often in home care and home care management related conversations. We could probably name the podcast that. So, yeah, definitely relate there. We've kind of already touched on some of this, but what are some of the like maybe more like advanced or out of the box tactics you've adopted that like probably aren't being used by the typical marketer? And like And how did you start to use these ideas? Yeah. So I, again, my last company, I had such a strong sales leader that she really instilled

a lot of really good things in me that I apply today in our new business. I think that you've got to set yourself apart, right? Like you said, don't be the coffee and donuts person that just comes in and doesn't provide any value. So one of the things like I mentioned earlier is what do you, Connor, what can you bring to the table to this referral account that your competitors don't?

Something about you is unique. And so how can you use that to create an intention in a meeting or an activity and then get it on the calendar? Like one of the things that I did at my former company was teach a brain engagement enrichment class. And I was lucky that they provided the content. So really all I had to do was show up once a month or twice a month and teach the class. But it was coordinating with the activities director, showing up when I said I was going to show up, helping promote the class, getting, you know, making it fun, encouraging the residents to bring their friends, bring their girlfriends, bring their boyfriends, you know, to like make it a fun experience. And usually that, like I said, the director would walk by or the sales director would bring a tour because they knew that this activity was going on at the same

time. So I was helping make their community look good by providing this free class. The thing with when you provide your own talents to a community that really is kind of outside of just a normal sales call is you have to remember to ask for the business and you have to hold yourself accountable to getting that ROI, the return on your investment, because it's your time and it's your energy. And there was a point a few years ago where I was doing this class and almost a year had gone by and I hadn't gotten a single referral. And one day I was just like, hold up. Like, I love these residents. I really enjoy this class. But is this the best use of my use of my time if they're giving the business to other agencies? agencies. So I had to have a kind of a confrontational conversation in a professional way and just say, I cannot continue giving my time if I'm not considered, you know, as a top

provider for your community, because I haven't seen any referrals. Luckily, that turned around really quickly. But if I hadn't have asked, and if I hadn't had, you know, really kind of stood up for myself, I probably would have continued to waste time or felt resentful. And that's like the last thing anyone should do when they're giving their time. That makes sense. That's interesting that having that like breakup conversation actually helped to like drive the relationship forward. Is that something that you've seen often happens or was that like a fairly isolated

incident? No, I think a lot of sales reps at my former company would get caught in the same thing. You know, it's the, it's what you call the friend zone, right? Where they're friendly, they like you. We're so glad you're here, you know, great job with your activity, but then it's crickets and you haven't had any and you haven't even had a lead. You know, it's one thing if you've had a few leads and they haven't started for whatever reason, you know, you have to have those accountability conversations. And if there's a reason why you're not getting a referral, even though you're giving back to this community in a very meaningful way, you have a right to know. And if that's because the executive director's sisters started a home care company and so they're giving all the business to them, well, I mean,

how are you going to beat that? That's going to be really hard. Yeah, I think that it's a pretty common thing to get stuck in the friend zone. And you either have to move it up a level or you have to break up, as you said. How long generally are you okay being in the friend zone or at least like haven't received a referral yet before it's like time to have the breakup conversation or like whatever else you need to do there? I think it depends on the circumstance. One is really making sure that the account you're spending your time in is viable. And this particular account, it was. And I think that there had been such a frequent turnover in staff, in director staff the referral people that no one really

knew who I was anymore and nobody really cared that I was doing this activity and they just kind of you know just I was just kind of like she's part of she's just doing her thing and so that takes effort that I kind of reintroduce myself myself and say, I'm only here because we're supposed to be a partner and I'm partnering with you. But I really don't think you should stay in the friend zone for more than a month or two. I think you should have a pretty quick idea of whether or not a relationship is going to develop. But it's on the salesperson to ask for the business. You can't expect to get, if you're not asking and if you're not giving and holding yourself accountable. And I think that that's also a common problem that salespeople have, like, we're just so nice

and we're just having fun and we go out to lunch. And, but it's, it's like, no, we need to kind of change the, change the stigma of salespeople to be, you know, educators and people who are providing value and not just goodies all the time. This is really good. Something you had mentioned to me before we talked on the podcast is that you actually started a networking group for marketers in your area. Tell me about that. Yeah. So that is another great way to really set yourself apart.

A few years ago, I had started a group that was really supposed to be a place where professionals who work with older adults can come together and talk about a case scenario and weigh in on how to solve it. You know, frequently it was a scenario around an elder who was either having financial abuse or had a major chronic illness situation where they didn't have any kids and they were alone. And so I created this group to bring together legal professionals, estate planning attorneys, mostly family law attorneys as well. I would bring together certified financial planners, wealth advisors, and insurance providers, as well as healthcare people like geriatric care managers, home health and hospice reps, and senior living community people. And it's turned into this

once a month, about 20 to 25 people come together. We often will meet just at like an outdoor cafe because we're lucky to have beautiful weather here in San Diego, or we can be outside year round, or someone's willing to host at their community or at my office. And I prepare a case scenario or a topic of education, and we all discuss it. And at the beginning, we have an opportunity to go around and do a 30-second elevator pitch. And then we also have an opportunity to go around and provide a testimonial, which is thanking someone for the business that they were given or that they referred out. And it has just been a great way to network. It's been a great way for me to invite new people who I meet, who are interested in meeting with me and building a

relationship to come to this group if I think that they're a good fit and participate. And you really see kind of someone's way that they handle a complex situation, which gives you the feeling of whether or not you want to refer to them in the future. And sometimes I'll have a guest speaker, like a few months ago, we had a death doula, a woman who works with a company that provides medical aid and dying services, that program, the California State Program, because there's a lot of misconceptions around that. And it's not a topic that a lot of people are comfortable, but it's a very important topic for legal, financial, healthcare professionals to know about and ask questions around for clarity. And it was such a great discussion

where people shared their own personal stories, and then were able to get a lot of facts and answers from my guest speakers. So that is easy to set up. There's a lot of other networking groups out there. And I would just say that at the beginning, when you're new to a market or a territory, it's good to go to the ones where there are five to 10 other home care businesses and everyone's going to these similar health care provider ones. But take who you meet from those and invite them to be a part of an exclusive group. And one, it makes them feel special. And, you know, it's kind of exciting to be invited to like an exclusive group. And two, you get to know them better that way than like in a room of, you know, 30 to 50 people who are all talking really loud and it's hard to get to know someone.

So I think networking groups with intention and purpose. So again, you're not wasting anyone's time. You have an educational topic or a scenario to review can be a really great way to get to know your referral sources and to also stand out in your community. Thanks for sharing that. Lots of good stuff in there. We are not going to get through everything we had planned, which is fine because we went through some great detours here. But a few kind of last questions here. I guess first we have somebody asking, how effective do you think targeting physician's offices will be? That's a great question. I do target physician's offices. However, I'm very selective. I mostly target concierge medicine physicians. Again, I wish we could help everybody, but the people who work with concierge doctors often want to stay in their own home and they often have

the means to be able to afford long-term in-home care. And those doctors have a much more intimate relationship with their patients versus a large internal medicine group that sees, you know, 3,000 patients and, you know, doesn't spend quality time with them. So the concierge doctors is definitely a realm that I would encourage everyone to look into if you haven't already. They usually have a nurse practitioner and an MA who does a lot of the coordinating. So yes, you can meet the doctor, you can can provide lunch but really your focus should be getting to know you know who does the referral who filters the phone calls even the front desk person is really important because they probably get when patients call to cancel appointments because they don't have a ride or they're not feeling well then that front desk person can say

you know I have a potential solution for you you should should call Gabby with Cheer Home Care. They can provide you a ride and then take you to the pharmacy afterwards. So those concierge doctors are more intimate and spending more time with their patients and often have older adults as well. And then there's specialists, certainly neurologists that work with people who have memory disorders.

They are great because they're seeing a large portion of the population, but I would still just get really specific in those offices to find out what percentage of your population has a diagnosed dementia or Alzheimer's. What are you doing besides just the office visit to support them in their home? What organizations are you working with currently to give support? So you can kind of get more information about who, which other providers they like to work with. Orthopedic doctors can be good too. But usually I'll just partner with a home health agency who have great relationships with orthodox because they will identify if a patient is alone and needs caregiving after surgery or coming home from a sniff or something like that. So I think doctor's offices in theory would be a great place to get good business. I just don't think doctors take the time with their patients to identify home care. That makes sense. I mean, what I'm hearing here is yes, but it really has to be the right circumstances and it is often not those particular circumstances. I appreciate that.

As my last question here, what would be your most important advice to a marketer who's looking to level up their abilities? Being an active listener, I think you should do less talking and more listening. This is very out of my comfort zone because I've been talking so much. But if I have an opportunity, even at a lunch in service at a doctor's office, for example, you probably have five minutes FaceTime with a very busy provider.

How do you use those five minutes FaceTime with a very busy provider. How do you use those five minutes wisely? Is it just verbally vomiting your features and benefits of your company? That is not a good use of your time. You want to ask them a couple of very poignant questions to really get them talking and telling you what their pain points are, what their experience has been with home care, and what would be important to them if you got an opportunity as a follow-up or ways to communicate once you got one of their patients on your services. That's it. So I would say being an active listener is the best thing a salesperson can do. And then having an intention and purpose

with all of your sales calls and scheduling meetings and not just walking in and hoping that you're gonna catch someone with five minutes of spare time. Love it. Thanks for sharing. That was really good. And just in general,

thanks for coming on the podcast today and sharing your wisdom and experience and everything. For those listening, she will be back on next week with the CEO of Cheer Home Care to talk about a fairly interesting approach they're taking to pricing and also to compensation for caregivers that I haven't seen done before, just kind of as a teaser here, it involves actually requiring bachelor's degrees for some of their caregivers. I was kind of not sure what to think of this at first, and I learned more and I'm excited to ask more questions next week. So that's kind of the teaser here. I think it'll be really good to talk to them and learn more. And thanks again for joining. Have a great week. Thanks, Connor. We'll see you next time.

That's a wrap. This podcast was made by the team at CareSwitch, the first AI-powered management software for home care agencies. If you want to automate away the menial of your day-to-day with AI so that you and your team can focus on giving great care, check us out at careswitch.com.