Hope Is A Verb - Antarctica: The World's Greatest Story of Cooperation

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Antarctica isn't just a climate story. For more than 65 years, Antarctica has been governed by one of the most remarkable international agreements ever created. At the height of the Cold War, countries with competing territorial claims agreed to set conflict aside and dedicate an entire continent to peace, science and environmental protection.Meet Claire Christian, Executive Director of the Antarctic and Southern Ocean Coalition (ASOC) - the only environmental organisation invited to participate directly in meetings of the Antarctic Treaty System. With more than 15 years working inside the Treaty System, Claire offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at how the world cooperates to protect one of the most important places on earth.In this episode:Why the Antarctic Treaty remains one of humanity's greatest diplomatic achievementsHow Antarctica shapes climate, oceans and sea levels around the worldWhat Antarctica can teach us about our relationship with natureThe challenges of protecting the Southern Ocean in a changing climateWhy consensus is the Antarctic Treaty System's greatest strength and biggest frustrationThe future of our coldest and driest continentTimestamps:00:31 Why Antarctica Matters04:19 Meet Claire Christian05:58 How Antarctica Shapes the World08:59 The Ross Sea Success Story10:55 Inside the Antarctic Treaty16:25 Midpoint Reflections - The Human Side of Diplomacy18:54 Antarctica and the News20:26 What Claire Has Learned From Visiting Antarctica22:27 A Wonderful World of Invertebrates23:27 The Issue of Krill25:09 Thwaites Glacier25:57 The Climate Challenge28:10 A Vision for Antarctica's Future30:02 What Antarctica Can Teach Us31:46 Final ReflectionsFind out More:👉 Antarctic and Southern Ocean Coalition - ASOC👉 Claire ChristianAbout Fix The News:Fix The News is a solutions-focused media platform sharing stories from the frontlines of progress - exploring what’s working in the world and the people making it happen.Subscribe & follow:If you enjoyed this episode, follow the podcast and leave a review - it helps more people find these stories.Production credits:Hosted by Angus Hervey and Amy Davoren-RoseProduced by Fix The NewsAudio production: Anthony Badolato, Hear That! This episode was produced in Australia on the lands of the Gadigal, Wurundjeri and Woi Wurrung peoples.

When you see the vibrant wildlife and the amazing landscapes of Antarctica and you think about how, hey, you know, down here, I have to be really careful about everything I do so that I don't mess up this wonderful place. I think it puts you in a different mindset. You know, what if we took that back to our homes? What if we asked what nature needs instead of asking what we need and then trying to make nature accommodate it? Welcome to Fix the News. I'm Amy. I'm Gus. and these are stories from the front lines of progress. It's school holidays at the moment,

and I have just come back from Canberra, which is where my partner Sammy's family lives. And we took all of our kids and their cousins to a new exhibition at the Australian Museum, which was all about Antarctica. Oh, wow. And it had all these great exhibits. My baby settled for the alarm at some point.

I think she didn't realize that the... Yeah, the line that says don't enter here actually means don't enter for babies as well as for other people. And it was a great exhibition and had all these fantastic historical examples of Australia and Australian explorers and Australia's scientific involvement in Antarctica, some really great video footage. And I always find this whenever I'm looking at those Antarctic kind of exploration exhibits, when you always look at the clothes that they had. And the clothes are like these like super thin whale-skirts,

or oil skin jackets or something. And they're like, yeah, they had to use these for minus 40 degrees. And you just go, they were made out different stuff to us. Yeah. That's back in the day where they were real men, Gus. Real men and real crazy women and like really, like a whole lot of steel and heavy, bulky stuff and frostbitten faces. Anyway, the point of this is that part of the exhibit,

they were talking about the Antarctic Treaty, which was signed in 1950. right at the height of the Cold War, which was this time of arguably even greater international competition and conflict than the world that we have today. And yet this weird kind of anachronism came together, and they signed this Antarctic Treaty where they said, right,

regardless of the fact that we all have competing interests, we agree to keep an entire continent free from war and mining and conflict, and we are going to make this a place for scientific collaboration. And it struck me looking at that, that if they could do it then, then maybe that allows us to do something extraordinary right now at a time when it feels like geopolitical conflict is on the rise and that tensions are perhaps higher than they have been in living memory.

I'm really happy that we are having this conversation about the Antarctic Treaty at this particular point in time because I feel like all I am hearing about is the end of the rules-based order. it seems like it's impossible to get two leaders of any countries to sit down and agree on something, let alone the entire world. And the Antarctic Treaty, which I didn't even know about before I started researching for this episode, it's proof. It's proof that we can actually all work toward a common interest.

We can put our differences aside. And we can actually work on something that is going to move the whole world forward. And someone who has a front row seat to a lot of those big treaty meetings and who's in those rooms is Claire Christian. And she's from the Antarctic and Southern Ocean Coalition. So they're the only environmental group that are able to participate in some of these treaty meetings. And so I was really excited to have this conversation with her. Antarctica is a really special place. And it is not a place that we often think about.

I think it stands as a symbol for what we can really do. And it's a place that I think in many ways encapsulate so many of the challenges that we're facing today. The issues haven't been solved. There are a number of looming challenges. There are tensions. People aren't quite able to agree on how we're going to solve these things. And yet, at the same time, it represents just how far we've come.

You spend your days thinking about one of the remote places on Earth. How has Antarctica changed your worldview? You know, humans are great at separating things out to make it easier for ourselves to understand. There's a law for this fishery in this part of the ocean. There's a law for how vessels operate at sea. We've divided our territory, our land up into borders, and there's laws about who can cross the border and when. But I think when you work on Antarctica, you realize that's a human-created reality.

that's not the planet's reality. Antarctica is part of a global climate and ocean system that affects all of us. Our sea levels are influenced by how much ice is locked up in the Antarctic ice sheet versus melting into the ocean. So I think what you start to see is that this really is one planet. And when we talk about problems that we have, like climate change or biodiversity loss, I don't see them as issues that any one country can solve on its own. I really see them as something that we all have to work together to solve. So I see that my ability to thrive as a human being is connected to people in other countries.

For me to be happy and thriving in Washington, D.C., you know, people need to be making decisions in other parts of the world as well that are for the benefit of everybody. So I think it helps you think a little bit more on a planetary scale versus what's happening in my backyard, which is, of course, important. But when we're talking about some of these big questions, like about climate change, you can't tackle them in little boxes. You say Antarctica is part of this global climate and ecological system. Why is it so important? And in particular, why are marine protected areas in this region such a big deal? Well, in terms of climate, I think you have to start with the ocean.

If you flatten out the globe, you'll see that all the oceans are interconnected. There's one map projection called the spillhouse projection that I think is really informative. And when it's all laid out, Antarctica is at the center. And if you trace out the ocean currents, they're all going around Antarctica and off into the rest of the world and back again. And that ocean is so incredibly influential on all of our lives, not just in terms of whether we eat food from the ocean or not. It impacts global climate. For example, when sea ice forms in Antarctica, salty water is excluded because the sea ice is fresh water.

That salty water is very heavy, so it sinks down, and it ends up circulating all around the globe, and it brings with it nutrients, heat, and oxygen. So when you have less sea ice in Antarctica, the formation of that kind of water is changed, and that can have an impact on ocean currents, which can have an impact on the weather near your house, which can have an impact on marine ecosystem far away

that's not getting as much nutrients as it used to. In fact, I was reading once somebody called Antarctica the engine room of the planet. Whether we realize it or not, the kind of things that are happening in Antarctica are affecting us. And of course, obviously, Antarctica is covered by ice, and if that ice melts, sea level will rise.

And even a few inches of sea level rise can be devastating. And keeping Antarctica frozen is actually incredibly beneficial to huge portions of humanity. most of whom live in coastal areas. Okay. What about marine protected areas in particular, though? Well, I like to think of Antarctic environmental protection

as a kind of two-layered process. One, there's the local level. So there are human activities in Antarctica. There's some fishing. There's some tourism. And then there's the impact of global climate change on Antarctica. So with marine protected areas, obviously that's not about addressing climate change.

change per se. But that is a local response to increasing human activity and increasing climate change impacts on Antarctica. Because of the science that has told us that marine protected areas and terrestrial protected areas are the best tools that we have as humans to protect biodiversity and to mitigate against the effects of climate change. So areas that are strictly protected where there's less stress from other human activities tend to be more resilient when climate change does occur and some of the areas in Antarctica are warming very rapidly already. Okay. It is a local solution to a global problem, but it is really important because it's important

for everywhere on the planet to have protected areas and parts of the ocean, neighboring protected areas. I really like that frame. There's a local solution to a global problem. I like that a lot, actually. It makes me think about a couple of other conservation stories that we cover. I've been working as a Solutions Journalist for over a decade, and I first really started doing this work in earnest.

I think in 2015. And I distinctly remember sharing and writing about the protection of the Ross Sea. I think at the time it was the world's largest marine reserve in 2016, 1.5 million square kilometers. What was the hardest part of getting that agreement across the line?

Well, I would say it was political will, basically. The Ross Sea has produced an incredible amount of science over the years as a very well-studied area. And there was also a dedicated team of scientists that helped get the scientific basis for the marine protected area together. If you look at the stats on the Ross Sea, it's home to a disproportionate percentage of penguin, seals, whales, compared to some other parts of the Southern Ocean. So the ecological case was really strong. We just had to get all of the countries at Camilar, which is the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources on board.

And that was a big task because no one had ever, I think, done anything on that scale. Like you say, at the time, it was the largest MPA in the world. People were a little reluctant because there were going to be some restrictions on fishing as a result of the MPA. And not every country was on board with that. It was more of a question of diplomacy and political discussions than it was about anything else. And I think that's true today for the other MPAs that have been proposed. I think the global science on MPAs is very strong. Everything we know tells us that this is one of the best tools we have to protect biodiversity,

and you just have to get politicians to agree. Claire, I'd really like to dive into the treaty a little bit and what it takes to move things forward. You've recently come back from, I think it was the 48th treaty meeting. held in Japan this year. I mean, this is such a successful example of all the countries working together, but at the same time, there are always issues like this year it was the Emperor Penguins that remained stuck. For you, when you are in these rooms, how do you hold that tension between this global

system that has achieved extraordinary things, but also one that is maybe not acting, quickly enough? Yeah, there is a huge tension, I think, between the history of the Antarctic Treaty system and the amazing things that were accomplished in the signing and adoption of those agreements and the way it's maybe operating today. Because there are very lofty principles in those agreements. Like I said, there's a very strong commitment from many countries to Antarctic preservation. but because of the requirement that all the countries that are party to the treaty have to agree on any decision, because of that requirement, any one country can block anything for any reason, essentially. That's really unfortunate at times.

You know, with the Emperor Penguin, what was being proposed was to list the penguin as a specially protected species, which comes with additional protection measures under the Antarctic Treaty. Many countries had worked very hard on that. an incredible amount of detail has gone into developing an action plan. To have that not go through is really disappointing. But I think the one thing that can maybe help with that feeling of frustration and disappointment is that many of the major accomplishments in Antarctic Conservation only came after many years. In fact, my organization was founded in the late 1970s.

And at that time, the Antarctic Treaty parties were discussing mining regulations. for Antarctica and NGOs organized, NGOs like mine organized around the concept of banning mining. And for many, many years, they were told that that was a very unrealistic goal. You would never ban mining. The best you could do would be to make sure that it took place in the most responsible way possible. But that was wrong. There is a mining ban in place now. After all those negotiations, a few countries decided they couldn't support it and they had to start. over and what they came up with instead was an environmental protection agreement that is a part of the entirety treaty now. That is a good lesson to remember. You know, people can be very entrenched in their

opinions and then you can work to build trust with them to show them a different perspective and over time you can convince them. I just hope that we can redouble our efforts to build that trust, to build that shared sense of values that would make it easier to make decisions. because Antarctica is at a really critical point right now, and there are many things like the Emperor Penguin designation that we could do to protect it on a local level. I hate to see those tools going unused because of politics. I have such a huge respect for the work you do.

I mean, I can barely get my family to agree on what we are going to eat for dinner, let alone trying to get all the countries of the world to agree on something, and you have a ticking clock in the background as well. I mean, what does it take to keep showing up in this kind of situation? I think just personally, I am a kind of person who always believes there's a way. I think what we're seeing right now generally is people are worn down. You see a lot of terrible things in the news every day. and it's really hard to not be overwhelmed by all of that when, at least for me, things that I thought were the best parts of my country, seeing that other people think those are the worst parts. Those are the things that we need to dismantle and destroy, like science funding or medical research funding or having a multicultural society that's welcoming to all kinds of people. But that is, I feel like, exactly the giving up just makes it easier for those things to happen.

You know, it is easy to be cynical about the fate of the world and where we're going. But I was just at a meeting where I saw it wasn't just the government of Japan. I saw a lot of folks spending a lot of time in intense conversations trying to make progress on this Emperor Penguin issue. This is not something that anybody is going to personally profit from in any way. They're just doing it because they love Antarctica and they want to see it protected. There are people out there who do really care. And so even if the headlines say, oh, this failed and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, yes, that's, you know, obviously we want real outcomes.

But knowing that there are a lot of people out there who still show up year after year to put in this kind of incredible effort, I think that's a real positive for me. Most of the things that we've achieved throughout human history that have been worthwhile haven't been easy either. Amy, listening to Claire talk about these meetings, I think it's just such a good reminder that it's not countries that are negotiating these things. It's people. But the reporting is always couched in terms of

Norway has said this or China has said this or Russia has said this. And when I was listening to Claire, it just suddenly struck me, and I know this should be obvious, but it's not countries. What you're talking about here is people negotiating with other people And obviously those people are representing the interests of their countries.

But it's not a kind of bunch of monolithic blocks bumping into each other in an empty conference room. There are real people with real feelings, real emotional ups and downs, relationships that go back sometimes decades. Exactly. Like sometimes Japan and Sweden go out for a beer after a day of negotiations, you know? And I think the same people will often keep coming back to

these meetings. So as well as the progress that happens or doesn't happen, it's every time these relationships build. And I know, I found something about that really comforting. Yeah, that's how I felt as well. Also, just to get my geek on, you know, in game theoretical terms, you've got a much greater chance of a better outcome if you have repeated interactions between two parties or multiple parties rather than one-off interactions, that if you can somehow open up the space for cooperation, and you know that you're going to have to come back again to interact and negotiate, there is a greater chance, a win-win outcome in game theory.

So that's the other thing I was thinking, which I don't know, maybe everyone thinks that in the other conversations, but yeah, it all felt like game theory to me. The other thing I really loved is how she said what's happening in Antarctica is a local solution to a global problem. And there's something about still thinking about

Antarctica in terms of this local kind of presence and what is happening there is just really focused on what is happening there and Antarctica is also one of those weird places where it kind of sits in the back of our subconscious and we don't really think about it that often but every now and again it's kind of surfaces and suddenly it's in the news right often for the wrong reasons when you see Antarctica in the news can you describe what the gap between the way Antarctica about the news and the Antarctica that you understand? Well, I think one of the main things is that it's a source of kind of mysterious fascination

for a lot of people in the news. What's going on there? What might happen there in the future? Are people in conflict over Antarctica? But one thing that the media loves to discuss and is kind of a little pet peeve of mine is that people say the Antarctic Treaty is going to expire in 2048, and then the content will be opened up to mining, which is. not very accurate. There's a mining ban in place indefinitely. And to get rid of that mining

ban, you would have to have a new international legally binding agreement in place that was ratified by a large number of countries. So as somebody who has attended meetings where countries make decisions for many years, they take a long time to do things like this, even when they're not legally binding. I've seen people debate a non-binding resolution for hours and hours on end. So the thought that we would just wake up in 2048, a bunch of countries would say, let's go mine Antarctica, and that it would happen is pretty out of step with the way that the system actually works. It's also out of step with the way a lot of countries think. Many, many countries are very proud of the fact that they have put a ban on mining in Antarctica

and that they focus on environmental protection. And I don't think that would change just because the date on the calendar changes. Can you tell us your best story about Antarctica, like the one that you always reach into your back pocket for when you're at a dinner party? I think the thing that really is interesting about going to Antarctica is you do have to follow a lot of rules. You have to stay away from the wildlife. You know, only a certain number of people are allowed on shore in any given time. It's one of the few times in your life where, you know, what you want as a human matters a lot less. So you might want to go and look closer at the penguins.

You can't. There's something called a penguin highway. So penguins like to take the same paths up and down the beach. If you step on a penguin highway, your guide is going to come over and tell you to get off the penguin highway immediately. You're not allowed to block a single penguin from getting to the ocean. And I think in our daily lives, we really don't think about nature that way. We don't really think about, you know, what is nature need.

We're not concerned about whether we're blocking my animal's path or not, or whether we're stepping on a plant. We just do it. So I think when you see the vibrant wildlife and the amazing landscapes of Antarctica, and you think about how, hey, you know, down here, I have to be really careful about everything I do so that I don't mess up this wonderful place. I think it puts you in a different mindset.

What if we took that back to our homes? What if we asked what nature needs instead of asking what we need and then trying to make nature accommodate it? Instead of asking how many trees can we cut down in this forest before something bad happens, we can ask, you know, what does this forest need to be healthy and then accommodate our actions to that? It's a really powerful lesson for people because we are in a really almost a point of crisis right now with climate change and biodiversity loss. And people want to know what can we do about it. Well, I think we can reframe our entire relationship with nature. And when you're down in Antarctica, you get a little practice doing that. You spoke about the wildlife.

I mean, when I think of Antarctica, obviously the first thing that comes to mind is a penguin, but you've got a soft spot for Antarctica's lesser-known invertebrates, right? I do. I do. So under the water, there's amazing invertebrate life. There's glass sponges that can live for 500 years. There's starfish with 50 arms. arms that catch krill out of the water.

There's all kinds of very weird and wonderful creatures down there. And when you see these little hot spots on the seafloor, they look amazing. They're like gardens covered with sea urchins and starfish and sponges and all kinds of things. And they're more colorful than you might imagine as well. For me, it just highlights, you know, Antarctica isn't just ice and a few penguins. It's a really rich and vibrant ecosystem. And many of those areas are very fragile and sensitive in there. largely untouched.

You spoke about the 50-armed starfish and it catches krill. I feel like krill is an issue that is suddenly on our radar at the moment. How much of a role has ASOC played in that? And can you tell us about what's happening with krill right now? Yeah, so Antarctic krill are a really unique organism in that most things in Antarctica either eat krill or eat something that eats krill. So the ecosystem is unusually centered on that one species. And because there's so much krill, human beings have found uses for it.

One of those uses is nutritional supplements, omega-3 krill oil supplements, fish oil. There's a growing interest in that market. And the whole reason for devising a separate treaty for the ocean around Antarctica was that people in the late 70s and early 1980s were concerned that if too much If krill was taken, the ecosystem would collapse because even back then they understood how tightly focused so many species were on krill as a primary food source. So now the main area for where krill fish, the Antarctic Peninsula, is experiencing some of the fastest warming on the planet. We're also seeing a recovery in whale populations.

And many whales are feeding for krill in the same area where the fishery is operating. So we're seeing this kind of conflict of these different forces all happening at once. There is a lot of krill in Antarctica or in the Southern Ocean, but the fishery is concentrated in a really small spot. I'm not concerned about krill being overfished as a whole circumpolar, circumcontinental species. I am concerned about too much krill being taken out from where penguins, whales, and seals and other species need it. Claire, this one is kind of coming out a bit of left field, but seeing as we've got someone

who is quite literally one of the world's experts on Antarctica. I have got a burning question. Is the Thwaites Glacier on the cusp of collapsing into the sea? Ooh, I am not a glaciologist, so I'm hesitant to answer that question. But I can tell you that warming is happening a lot faster. There's a risk that we will pass thresholds in Antarctica, perhaps sooner than we thought. And what I mean by that is once we get past those thresholds,

glaciers will collapse more rapidly. Melting will occur more rapidly. And it will be very hard, even if we reduced emissions dramatically after that, it would be very hard to stop those processes once they occur. Claire, I mean, we hear information like this. And for me sitting here in Sydney, it feels like there's nothing I can do. And that is really stressful. Is there anything that you can tell our listeners?

Like, what can we do? How can we help? how can we be a part of the change? It is a hugely complicated question, and it does feel overwhelming, especially as an individual citizen. I mean, I think the most important thing we need right now is climate leadership.

And unfortunately, I do see that there's a retreat from talking about climate change. And I think there is a sense on the part of our leaders that they can't do anything about it because the US isn't doing anything or this country isn't doing anything. And that's a very defeatist attitude. I have to say.

So I would hope that citizens can really hold their leaders to account. If they're not talking about climate change, if they're not, if they don't have a climate change platform, make them have one. You can't wait until climate change becomes more popular to do something about it. You know, there might be some political issues where you can wait. You can put it aside until the situation changes, but this is not one of them. I know that there's a certain corner of opinion that has said recently, you know, why are people doing all these individual things? They don't work. Recycling doesn't work.

Why am I biking to work when corporations are causing tons and tons of emissions? But I feel that's a very disempowering message. It doesn't really reflect human nature either because humans are copycats. And when people see other people doing things that are responsible, they tend to be more responsible themselves. If you look at some of their big reports on climate change and what people need to do, they emphasize consistently. We need societal transformations. And society is all of us. That's little things.

That's little things like what we do with our individual trash. And that's big things, like how corporations produce the products they sell us. All those things are important. And if we wait for some, that silver bullet, there is never going to be one. Everything starts somewhere. All these things that become part of our lives start as small ideas. that grow bigger. Okay, so just say over the next 20 years,

all of those million little bits add up. The treaty continues working well. If we get this right, what would success in Antarctica look like, say, in 20 years' time? I think success is keeping Antarctica frozen literally and figuratively. So literally in that the glaciers are stable, The ice sheet is stable and that it doesn't melt.

And then figuratively, in that we continue to have a system that is predicated on environmental protection values and not extraction values. Also, we have an Antarctica where there continues to be thriving wildlife and a minimal human footprint. So we're not waiting to see evidence of damage. We're taking steps ahead of time to make sure that doesn't happen in the first place. I think we see a system where countries continue to prioritize international cooperation in science and environmental protection as shared values, even if it doesn't benefit them in any direct way. And I think also hopefully we would see a situation in which other parts of the world are learning from Antarctica to address their shared challenges. Hopefully taking lessons learned from the Antarctic Treaty system and putting those values into work nationally,

or regionally. I think Antarctica and the success that has been had so far has a lot to teach the world. It would be great if we could continue that for the next 20, 30, 40, 100 years. Hearing you speak about this and just knowing the little bit that we do about the way the world governs Antarctica,

I think there is a good argument to me that is the most successful model of planetary governance that we have in the world right now. What does that tell us about what is still possible in 2006? Well, I think it tells us that you can change people's values over time. When people started out with the Antarctic Treaty, they were not thinking they were going to be banning mining

or creating marine protected areas. None of that was on the radar. But over time, that's become, to many people, a critical part of what the Antarctic Treaty system is supposed to do. In fact, that attitude seems to be coming expressed more and more strongly, I think, by some countries every year that makes me feel more positive about the Antarctic treaty system is even though we're not able to achieve consensus, it's really a tiny minority that are blocking consensus, and in fact, we're seeing countries step up to do

more in terms of Antarctic research and protection than they have historically. South Africa is working on a plan to identify areas for marine protected areas in Southern Ocean, along with France and Australia. South Korea has become an important research player and has a strong voice for conservation of Antarctica. Japan, in their hosting of the Antarctic Treaty meeting this year, they put in an incredible amount of effort trying to get a result on the Emperor Penguin. So we're seeing countries showing leadership at a time that is very difficult, and it just tells me that the principles of the Antarctic Treaty system do resonate with people still, and that countries can still look outside of their own national interest and think about what's best.

for a minute. Gus, this is one of those conversations where I walked away having to hold those two ideas of that there are problems in Antarctica that we really need to address and that the world can work together to solve things and to mend things. It actually made me really proud of us as a human race. I know there's a lot of things that we get wrong, but it is really lovely to hear a story, not about just one person that's getting something right, but representatives from every single country coming together and getting things right. I love that. It's such a good reminder. For me, I think the symbolism of Antarctica just comes through so strongly in this conversation,

that it stands in as a symbol of international cooperation, but also it's a place that is so important for so many other things that happen in the world. It regulates our currents and our temperatures, and it's this kind of forgotten hidden place at the bottom of the world, and yet it's connected to everything else, and it's so important in so many ways. And what happens there literally and figuratively has knock-on effects that ripple across the face of the planet,

and that is something that I think I will take away from this, and that I will keep in mind. And in the meantime, I think I'll just keep on trying to work on my baby, not tripping up the alarms. We know there are a lot of podcasts out there. It means a lot to us that you chose this one. It's made possible by our paying subscribers. So if you're one of them, a big thank you. And if you want to support what we do, you can find us at fixthenews.com.

This show was produced by Amy Rose with audio by Anthony Badalato from Here About. It was made in Australia on the lands of the Gotagal, Wurundry and Waiwerong peoples. If you liked it, hit subscribe, leave a review or send it to someone you love who needs to hear it. Thanks for listening.