Hope Is A Verb - How Colombia Ended a 60-Year War: Lessons from Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Juan Manuel Santos

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

What can Colombia teach us about what's still possible?Meet Juan Manuel Santos - former President of Colombia, Nobel Peace Prize laureate and Chair of The Elders - who helped negotiate an end to one of the longest-running armed conflicts in modern history. Under his leadership, Colombia signed a peace agreement with FARC, bringing an end to a conflict that had shaped the country for over 60 years. But this conversation isn't just about ending a war. We also explore Colombia's environmental leadership - from Indigenous wisdom in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta to the idea that there can be no lasting peace among people without peace with nature. Along the way, President Santos explains how Colombia helped inspire the Sustainable Development Goals, why cooperation remains humanity's greatest challenge, and what lessons the world can learn from a country that many once considered beyond repair. In this episode:How post-apartheid South Africa helped shape his vision for peace   Why peace is often unpopular - and why he pursued it anywayThe difference between making peace and building itHow victims became central to Colombia's peace processThe role of Colombia in creating the Sustainable Development GoalsWhy making peace with nature is essential to creating a better futureTimestamps:00:44 Amy & Gus: Why Doesn't South America Make the Headlines? 02:22 A Leadership Lesson from the Colombian Navy 04:45 Inside The Elders 05:14 The Four Existential Threats Facing Humanity 07:59 Making Peace with the Western Hemisphere's Longest-Running Guerrilla Movement 09:59 How Nelson Mandela Made Peace Seem Possible 12:25 Why Peace Is Often Unpopular 15:12 The Difference Between Making Peace and Building It 19:07 Why Victims Were Central to Colombia's Peace Process 22:11 Pastora Mira and the Extraordinary Power of Forgiveness 24:51 Is Peace Good for Nature? 26:41 The Colombian Idea That Became the SDGs 29:49 The Santa Marta Mandate: Bringing Humanity Back to Nature 32:25 Legacy, Elections and the Durability of Progress 35:52 Why We Need to Learn from Young People 37:48 What Is Still Possible? 40:16 The Dream President Santos Still Wants to Fulfil 41:00 Amy & Gus: Final ReflectionsGo Deeper:👉 The Elders👉 Juan Manuel Santos👉 The Open Library of the Colombian Peace ProcessAbout Fix The News:Fix The News is a solutions-focused media platform sharing stories from the frontlines of progress - exploring what’s working in the world and the people making it happen.Subscribe & follow:If you enjoyed this episode, follow the podcast and leave a review - it helps more people find these stories.Production credits:Hosted by Angus Hervey and Amy Davoren-RoseProduced by Fix The NewsAudio production: Anthony Badolato, Hear That! This episode was produced in Australia on the lands of the Gadigal, Wurundjeri and Woi Wurrung peoples.

In the end, every peace process boils down to one thing. Where do you draw the line between peace and justice? How much justice are you willing, is a society, a country willing to sacrifice in order to have peace? Welcome to Fix the News. I'm Amy. I'm Gus. And these are stories from the front lines of progress. For as long as I've known you, I've been rabbiting on.

about how we don't hear from Latin America often enough. And it's this huge place of like over 700 million people and everyone says Africa is the dark continent, but as far as news and media goes, Latin America is definitely the dark continent. And I think partially that's because of the language barrier. I also just think it's habit. We're just not used to hearing from that huge chunk of humanity.

I feel like so often the only times we hear, about countries in South America in the news is either because there's violence or war or deforestation or drugs. And what is so incredible about President Santos is he took that narrative and decided to change it head on. It is very rare to speak to someone who has been in the rooms and had contact with so many extraordinary people. And for me specifically, because of my upbringing and where I come from, to hear him talk about Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu in such personal terms is very special. It feels like I can take a deep breath.

We are hearing so much about the different world leaders and all of the chaos. And knowing that there are people like President Santos currently in some of those rooms, it's made something in me settle. It's like speaking to the world's grandab. As the grandad the world needs. President Santos, in doing research for this interview, I came across one of your key lessons from the Navy. And it was, before you do anything,

decide where you want to go first. And it sounds really simple, but it is really, really profound. And I'm interested, if you could course correct or give us a direction right now, what would it be? When I joined the Navy as a recruit, one of the officers called me and said, Santos, go use this small sailboat and learn how to sail. I had no idea how to sail. And I started going from one side to the other, and he started laughing.

And he said, come here. I will teach you a lesson. To be a good sailor, but also in your life, in your life, in your business, in government, you need to know where you want to go. And as a sailor, you can use all the winds, even the wins that are against you in your favor.

That lesson was extremely important for me. Many years later, discovered what I call my port of destination, what I wanted to do in my life. And one of the objectives probably the most important objective was to try to find peace in my country after more than 55, 60 years of war. And that became my port of destination.

And I learned also that you have to create the necessary conditions to reach that port. And that's how we finally arrived to the port of peace in Colombia after 60 years of war. In the world today, we also need a vision, a port of destiny, that will bring back some kind of system similar to the one that was created after the Second World War, a multilateral system that will help us as countries not only work together, but also confronts the existential threats that have emerged in the last decades. I am chair of something called the elders. It's a group founded by Nelson Mandela 19 years ago.

There are former heads of state and noble peace lords. Use our experience and our moral authority to try to push good news and hope in the world because, quite frankly, right now the world is going through a very difficult time with too much uncertainty. So we have identified four existential threats. One is a nuclear war. The risk of nuclear war right now has increased enormously by the number of nuclear weapons that have been produced, by the number of countries that have nuclear weapons,

and by the disappearance of treaties among the great nuclear powers. The second existential threat is climate change. We still have people who are what they call deniers, but the scientific world has shown us that if we don't address this problem with much more effectiveness, we will be in serious trouble. The third existential threat that we as elders have identified is the pandemics. We are not prepared for the next pandemic. the last pandemic showed us that without cooperation, the effects of the pandemic are disastrous.

And we are seeing right now what has happened in Congo with the Ebola. And the fourth existential threat that has emerged lately as an existential threat is AI. The Pope just published his encyclical. I think this is a document that we should all read and we should all internalize. As a matter of fact, as chair of the elders, we convened a group of experts a month ago in England. Among them was the anthropic co-founder that was photographed by the Pope when he presented the encyclical. And these experts from all around the world, from Russia, from China, from the U.S., from the UK, they all agreed that the world needs to cooperate in order to cooperate in order to cooperate.

control AI. So I think we have a challenging port of destiny. We have to work very hard in order to be able to solve these existential threats. President Santos' international headlines, I think, often frame Colombia through the lens of conflict and drugs, but they overlook the remarkable progress of recent decades, from millions lifted out of poverty to the care economy in Bogota, from cities like Medellin reinventing themselves with green. corridors, to the amazing efforts to protect the Amazon and expand clean energy. What lessons do you think Colombia has to teach the world? And how can we use those lessons to change course at the international level?

There is no conflict that cannot be resolved. During 60 years, the war against the most powerful guerrilla movement in the Western Hemisphere. Everybody thought that to make peace was impossible. all my predecessors failed. But when we started planning it very carefully, learning from other peace processes, learning the good things and the mistakes

in order to see what was applicable to our peace process, that allowed us to create the necessary conditions for a successful peace process. And I think this is a lesson for the rest of the world in the last 15 years, It's the only peace process where the UN, which right now is under fire, where the UN was very instrumental and very effective. Colombia, at the beginning of this century, was considered a failed state.

18 years later, Colombia was the country in the region in Latin America that had the best indicators in poverty reduction, in reduction of inequality, in conserving the environment, in creating jobs. So the lesson of how can this be done from a position of difficulty like we were at the beginning of the century could be used in other countries. That is possible through leadership and perseverance. This moment, the peace agreement, was obviously the defining moment of your presidency. For generations, war had been the backdrop to everyday life. What made you believe

that peace was possible? What gave you that glimmer of hope and that belief that this was something that could actually be done? There was a conversation I had with Mandela when he was president. I went to Johannesburg to give him the chair of the eighth conference of the United Nations for Trade and Development, the Eighth, Umtad. He was chair of the ninth. I was chair of the eighth. And I went to Johannesburg. I arrived to the hotel. And that morning, I turned on the television, the public South African television. And I started to see a surreal life program. For the first time, they were filming the encounter of the victims and the perpetrators. traders. They had never met before. That was being filmed live for the whole country to see.

Some of them embraced. Others hit each other. Others screamed at each other. It was a surreal program. That afternoon, I asked Mandela, what is it that you're doing? Why did you have this program? He sat and started explaining to me how important it is to reconciliate. after so many years of war. The way to reconciliate is to bring the victims and the perpetrators together and then trying to put them in the correct direction of pardoning each other, of working together

and of healing the wounds. I remember very well that in the middle of the conversation, Desmond Tutu, the archfreshier, came in to the room and he sat down and started to, tell me how important the truth was for reconciliation, to heal the wounds, that many times the victims don't want any reparations. They want to know why the perpetrators did what they did. So all these lessons I digested. Then at the end of the meeting, Mandela said to me, Colombia and South Africa are very similar countries. You will never take.

off if you don't have peace. And going back to the port of destination, there is when I really said my port of destination is trying to bring peace to my country. So I started working in many areas to try to create the necessary condition for a peace process. And finally, we did it. We did it against the will. Strangely enough, many times making peace is very unpopular. and I suffered consequences.

When I became president, I was elected because before I was Minister of Defense and I was a war hero because I was a very effective Minister of Defense. And so when I decided in my inauguration to say, I'm going to sit down and make peace with the FARC, everybody, even my family, said, don't do it. All your predecessors failed. You are now one of the most popular,

politicians in the country, you will lose your political capital. Don't try it. But I knew that it was the correct thing to do. And I said to myself, I have to do it. With the help of a friend of mine who had been a former minister of foreign affairs of Israel, his name is Shlomo Ben Amin, who told me, I know what you're going through. I know that you want to make peace. and I know that everybody is telling you, don't. Continue that you're good at making war. Your popularity is very, very high. Why are you going to risk your political capital

to sit down with these people? But I will put you in the following situation. You're about to go to your grave, and you look back, and you ask yourself, if I had taken the risk and I had been successful, how many lives would I have saved? If you don't take the risk, and the answer to that question is, well, I didn't take the risk,

would you go to your grave with your conscience and peace? And that argument was so powerful that I went to my wife and said, I am going to do it, no matter how unpopular. And it was very unpopular, because in the end, every peace process boils down to one thing. Where do you draw the line between peace and justice? How much justice are you willing, is a society, a country willing to sacrifice in order to have peace?

And no matter where you draw the line, you will always have more people claiming more justice and more people claiming more peace. So that's why many times the peace processes are very unpopular. But after a while, people realize that it's better to live in peace than the world. President Santos, thank you so much for that. I have never considered that line where it's peace and justice. And it's that line in between. My brain is going in a million directions right now. I mean, this was an incredible process.

And it was also a very long one. It was around six years. public scrutiny, there was setbacks. And then once you made that historic agreement, that also wasn't the end. At a time when there are multiple conflicts unfolding around the world, what is the difference between making peace and then building it? Well, I will tell you another anecdote. I was a good friend of the late Pope Francis. and we used to joke about football. He was Argentinian, that was Colombian.

And I used to tell him during this process, Pope Francis, why don't you go to Colombia? And this is a very difficult process and give me some help, a push. And he used to joke and said, oh, President, don't worry, I pray a lot for you. So I said, Pope Francis, you have to pray for me, that means I'm in real trouble.

But he said, no, I will go when you and the Colombian people will most need me. And he decided to come to Colombia after we had signed the peace agreement, after the guerrillas had given up their weapons, and they were reintegrated into civil society. and he baptized his visit, which was a historic visit, saying, I go to Colombia to push the Colombians to take the first step in the most difficult phase of any peace processes, which is the face of reconciliation.

You were mentioning peacemaking and peacebuilding. Peasmaking in the Colombian process was done very fast. In nine months, that was also a... universal record, no other peace process had finished what they called the DDR, disarmament, debobilization and reintegration in nine months with something incredible. The soldiers and policemen that the guerrillas were fighting for 60 years were in charge of their safety. But then became the process of peace building, the real reconciliation, which may take generations.

We are right now, 10 years after, in that process, with something that we invented also. No other peace process had a special tribunal of transitional justice under the umbrella of the Rome Statute that brings together the two parties and the most responsible are judged and sanctioned by this tribunal. That had never happened before. But it's been difficult.

that phase of peace building is the most difficult one. But you have to persevere. You have to keep on going and give the other people examples of why this is so important. And this is what we're going through in Colombia, examples of former combatants with the former military men working together or their sons right now working together on common projects to build that empathy between

two factions that have been killing each other for so long. It's difficult, but it's possible. President Santos, how does that make you feel? You said that you reached that point where you couldn't, in good conscience, not make peace, even if it was going against what a lot of people in your country wanted. How does it feel for you to now sit there and see the next generation working together? Well, I feel that I did with my conscience and my heart told me that was the correct thing to do, even if I lost a lot of my political capital, which afterwards slowly but surely I'm getting back.

But I think that this was something that was very worthwhile. I'd be very proud that I took the decision. It was very hard. And sometimes I will tell you an anecdote that is important because I told President Zelensky and I've told other people who are in conflicts about the importance of the victims. When I started the peace process, a former professor that I had from Harvard University came to visit me. And he said, President, you are going into a very difficult path. and you're going to feel the loneliness of power and you're going to be very willing to throw in the towel

because you're going to confront very difficult moments. I advise you to talk to the victims. Ask them their dramas, what they have suffered. That will re-energize you. I was a bit reluctant to do that because I thought the victims, precisely because they are victims, they were not going to support the peace process because the transitional justice means that the perpetrators will not go to jail but will have other kinds of sanctions.

So I said, I am a bit reluctant, but I started talking to them. And I was so surprised that all around the country, they were telling me the most important terrible dramas, how they raped and killed their daughters and how they tortured their sons. But at the end, most of them, not all, said, but precedent, continue, persevere. And I said, but I just told you that the person who did this to you or to your daughter is not going to a normal jail. He's going to be sanctioned, yes, but not going to a normal jail. Why are you so generous? and most of them told me

because we don't want others to suffer what we suffer. That for me was a lesson in life. My image of the human condition improved. And I tell you one that really touched my heart. This is a woman,

her name is Pastor Amira. She comes from the coffee region. Her parents were killed. Her brother was killed, and her son was tortured and killed. One week after she buried her son, who was tortured and killed, somebody knocked in her door. It was a wounded person that wanted help, and she helped him and put him in the bed of her son, whom she had buried a week before.

three days later when he was cured he was going out and he saw the picture of her with her son and suddenly he went to his knees and started screaming please please don't tell me this is your son and she said

yes why my God you've been so good to me I must tell you I'm sorry I'm sorry I was the one who tortured tortured and killed your son And this lady grabbed this person by the shoulders. He was kneeling down, almost crying, and said, stand up. And he stood up.

She looked him in the eyes and embraced him and said, thank you. And he went even crazier. Why are you saying thank you if I just confessed to you that I was the one who tortured and killed your son? And she said, because by what you did of asking for forgiveness, telling the truth, you relieve me from hating for the rest of my life. I took this woman with me to receive the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo. And in my speech, I said, she is, and the victims are the ones who really are the ones. who deserve the Nobel Peace Prize. We were able to achieve peace in my country

because we have 50 million Colombians who are the real deservers of this price, especially the victims. President Santos, I wonder if we could switch to the environment. You've warned that we are destroying Mother Earth. We are all aware of the environmental crisis around the world.

But there are also some spots of hope, I think. It looks like deforestation and the Amazon has dropped sharply in the last few years. Colombia is leading the world in its current stance on ending new oil and gas exploration and prioritizing forests. And deforestation has come down dramatically in Colombia as well. Is this a dividend of peace or is it something different?

No, this is a lesson that I learned from the indigenous communities. Especially the oldest indigenous community in the Western Hemisphere is up in the mountain called the Sierra Nevada of Santa Marta. They are the Kogi community. They have their own culture, their own health system. And when I became president as a gesture to them, our older

brothers, I went up there. The day I was inaugurated before swearing in Congress, and I asked them to give me permission to go to Congress as our older brothers. And they said to me, yes, we will give you permission.

I know that you are going to make peace with the FARC, but you also have to make peace with nature. Because if there is no peace with nature, peace among humans will not last. And they gave me a baton and said to me, you stop the war, but also made peace with nature. And when you finish your mandate, come back. So eight years later, this was in 2018,

two months before leaving power, I went back and I said, your mandate has been fulfilled. And I brought with me the peace agreement, the 320 pages that we signed with the FARC, and also I brought with me the document that was approved in the United Nations of the Sustainable Development Goals

because those were a Colombian initiative. two very wise young women in the government. They said, do you want to be a great world leader? And I said, yes, why? We have this idea. The millennium goals expire in 2015. We should replace them with something much more ambitious that has the environmental factor

and the rich country should also contribute. What do you think? And I said, it's a great idea. and they started doing multilateral diplomacy that ended up with the United Nations that was a historic event in the General Assembly. Every single country voted in favor of the SDGs. So I went to the indigenous communities

with the two documents and to give back the Paton and said, Mr. President, come back in a week. And I said, well, okay, and I went back a week later. And they said, the peace process with the Farrakest. perfect. But the SDGs, no. And I said, what do you mean? No. We've been negotiating for five years. Every single country approved it. What's wrong with that? And they said, it lacks the most important

factor. And I said, what is that? The spiritual factor. Unless humans feel that nature has life, that mountains have life, that rivers and the seas have life, and they treat nature as an equal, not as a secondary citizen, they will never be peace with nature. So go back and continue working for peace with nature because there will never be peace among humans if there's no peace with nature. And we're living that in the world.

I mean, what has happened with climate change, the people who are displaced and the hunger and the inequitable, that climate change is producing, that gives this theory of peace and nature being indivisible. But we are also seeing very positive examples of technology being used, of sustainable development, examples of regenerative agriculture that must be implemented much faster in order to change the trend

and have a much more effective way of stopping climate change. I am rather optimistic because I've seen examples here in Colombia. You mentioned the rate of deforestation has gone down, but it has to come down even faster. President Santos, you mentioned that this indigenous community was in Santa Marta, and of course Santa Marta has been in global headlines recently for very different reasons, because it was the first gathering of a kind of coalition of the willing on climate.

Sixty countries gathering together to try to see if we can circumvent discussions that have gotten stuck at the UN level. What do you make of the symbolism of that, that this place that gave you this mandate to bring humans back to nature has now most recently been the location of potentially something that may eventually end up unlocking our inability to come together on climate change? Well, it was a happy coincidence. I was there present.

I was also present in the COP 30, in Berlin, where there was a marvelous meeting for the first time, the scientific world and the indigenous communities getting together and giving the same message. In Santa Marta, I think that the initiative of getting together, what they call the country of the willing, because we saw in Berlin how powerful countries blocked the decisions to take much further actions on deforestation or on the transfer to clean technologies. But then the other path is like it happened some years before with the Treaty on the Control of Mines,

that a sufficient number of countries got together and start rolling. the ball in order to create a snowball effect. And I hope that this meeting in Santa Marta starts to really roll the ball. And the indigenous communities there were extremely sensitive because I promoted a meeting of some of the participants in the Congress with the indigenous communities and they were insisting, you must do much more.

and they showed, for example, the Sierra Nevada, there's a glacier that is very famous, but it's disappearing. And in five or six years, there will be no glacier, therefore there will be no water. And they said it's our life that is at stake. And this is what the world needs to understand that we have to be much more conscious of taking care of nature. Otherwise, we will all suffer. President Santos, we are very aware that your country is going to the polls. And I wonder whether moments like this make a former leader reflect differently on legacy. So which parts of your legacy feel strong right now and which parts feel fragile in terms of progress?

Well, when I became president, I... copied something that the former president of the United States had done. Abraham Lincoln, when he asked his former rivals in the election to become part of their cabinet, he wanted to abolish slavery and he wanted to win the civil war. And I did exactly the same. My former rivals, after I won the election, I invited them. and I chose different aspects of their proposals and incorporated them in my government plan

and made them part of my cabinet. And that gave me the governability, the ability to govern and to make reforms and to push the country forward and with very good results. Right now, in this very polarized world, Colombia is also very polarized. Unfortunately, the campaigns have been very aggressive,

and I'm worried because if you burn the bridges, to build them afterwards is going to be difficult, and if you don't have a minimum consensus of where you want the country to go, the country will not go, will simply don't, will not progress. my legacy or my lesson that I've been trying to promote is, listen, don't start thinking about the next government, how are you going to govern? We're going to inherit many very serious problems that need a minimum consensus among the Colombians from the left, from the right.

Many of the issues are not left or right. Many of the issues are existential issues that we have to get together to address. I think this is something not only in Colombia, in the world, and many, many countries are going through that. One of the lessons that I've been trying to promote is you can always get an agreement. And I quote Nelson Mandela again very often when he said, the most powerful weapon there is in the world is to sit down and talk. But don't talk simply to impose your point of view. sit down in a constructive way to learn from the people who think differently, why they think the way they think.

And that's the way to start finding common denominators that will allow you to make minimum agreements on how to live in peace forward. And I think this is something that Colombia needs, but the whole world needs right now. Sitting with you today, the thing that strikes me most is you have this ability to listen that I fear is being lost in the world right now. And you also really listen to young people, and so many of them are struggling with climate anxiety,

and they are really worried about the world right now. What would you like them to know? We had a great meeting. The elders met in Nairobi two weeks ago. The Irish embassy organized meeting with young people from Africa. And we sat down with them. But we sat down with them to learn from them, not to teach them. And it was an incredible meeting.

Went on for hours. The elders sitting with the young people, but learning from them. And they helped a lot of initiatives. a lot of ideas, how to communicate. We are very old-fashioned and, oh, you have to communicate in a different way. So learning from the young people, more than teaching them what to do, is something that the leaders today all around the world should pay more attention. One of the problems of the world today is the lack of long-term leadership.

The leaders are very worried about the effect of their decisions in the next election, and so they don't take the long-term view, and therefore many of the decisions are counterproductive than long-term. The young people are thinking much more in the long-term because they're young. Having faith in the future is what moves a society, and I think we should give much more importance to the future. young generations. President Santos, we have one last question for you. You have seen so much change in your lifetime, both for Colombia but also for the world. You've seen so many stories of

progress and you have been at the helm of many of those stories, but you have also seen things fracture and fall apart as well. In this moment, in 2006, what is still possible in the world? What is still possible? We can make many of the good things possible if we work together. If we really leave aside those short-term interests and start working together, everything is possible. For example, AI, which is for many an existential threat, but for many is the solution for many problems. But we have to get together and start talking. China and the U.S.

Instead of competing, let's sit down, as the Pope is now saying, and see how they can use this in the benefit of the whole world. And so many problems that we have right now can be solved if there is the will to cooperate and to have a constructive dialogue among the different countries. For example, Latin America, we have been the continent of the future for decades. And why have we not been able to be an important voice in the world affairs? Because of petty fights among the leaders. Right now, Mexico against Ecuador, Colombia, against Bolivia, Argentina, against Brazil. If we don't talk with one voice, we will never be relevant. But the same happens in the world.

If we start accepting the theory of spheres of influence, so the United States has a fear of influence in the Americas, China, in Asia, Russia, likewise, that will end very badly. We need to sit down and say, how can we work together? I know right now it's not easy, but we must. I must insist because that's the way to make things possible. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us, for being so open and so honest, for so many wonderful stories.

Is there anything else that you would like to add that we didn't cover? I wish I could fulfill a dream that I have is to go to Australia. Oh, yes, please. When I was present, I was going to go, and I don't remember why not. I didn't go, but this is one of the countries I really want to visit, and I hope I can do it with my family. We welcome you with open arms any time you come, and I think there might be a cop coming up potentially in Australia,

so we will keep an eye on that. Gus, it is impossible not to be changed by a conversation like this. It rewires you biologically. My whole body has a different energy. I feel like the way I'm going to look at the world is just going to be different from now. And I really am going to start to listen more intensely. What I keep on thinking about is how wonderful it is to hear from someone

from that part of the world. The perspectives and a different way of thinking about how societies come together and what matters and how you fix things and what the big threats are. One of the really strong themes in this was the idea of truth. That truth came through so strongly as a theme in a world where truth is now so contested and where truth can so often now be used as a weapon. To hear someone talk about the real truth and to think about truth as a solution to maybe so many of the issues that we're facing today. That stood out to me and it's something that I will continue to think about.

It just gave you this glimpse of context that you needed and to, to sit with somebody like that and hear their stories, this is what the elders are there for. And I feel like we need them more than ever. Yeah, I think that's very true. We know there are a lot of podcasts out there. It means a lot to us that you chose this one. It's made possible by our paying subscribers.

So if you're one of them, a big thank you. and if you want to support what we do, you can find us at fixthenews.com. This show was produced by Amy Rose with audio by Anthony Badalasso from Here About. It was made in Australia on the lands of the Guttagal, Wurundry and Waiwerang peoples.

If you liked it, hit subscribe, leave a review or send it to someone you love who needs to hear us. Thanks for listening.