Hope Is A Verb - It’s Time to Clean Up the Mess

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

What if the knowledge we need most for the future is something we’ve spent centuries forgetting?Meet Victor Steffensen, Tagalaka man, author, filmmaker, musician and co-founder of the Living Knowledge Network. For decades, Victor has worked with Indigenous communities in Australia and around the world to revive traditional ways of reading and caring for Country. His new book, The Knowledge, asks a much bigger question: what have we lost by separating ourselves from the natural world - and what might happen if we learned how to listen again?From why the climate crisis may actually be an identity crisis to how Western science and Indigenous Knowledge Systems can work together and the deceptively simple idea that everything we create should help nature flourish - this is a conversation about Indigenous knowledge as you might never have heard it before. Not as something that belongs to a select few, but as the wisdom that underpins us all.In this episode:Why Victor believes we’re all Indigenous to the planetWhy he thinks the climate crisis is, at its heart, an identity crisisWhat happens when a landscape loses its identity and how you bring it backHow ancient knowledge and modern science can strengthen each otherThe possibilities of reviving cultural memory and practiceAnd why, instead of arguing about who created the mess we're in, it’s time to get on with cleaning it upTimestamps:00:50 Introduction to Victor Steffensen05:21 Why Indigenous Knowledge is for everyone09:17 The moment that sparked 'The Knowledge' for Victor13:00 Indigenous Knowledge v Western Science17:32 What Victor has learned from apply the Knowledge in different countries20:06 Midpoint Reflections22:40 The Knowledge Triangle24:41 The Identity Crisis31:21 What does this actually look like?34:47 The job of cleaning up the mess41:32 Final ReflectionsWant to know more about The Knowledge?👉 Read Victor's new book, The Knowledge(Available online & at all good bookstores) 👉 Explore the Living Knowledge Network👉 Follow the team's work: Instagram. LinkedIn. Facebook. Video. Image Credit: Harry Vincent - Living Knowledge NetworkAbout Fix The News:Fix The News is a solutions-focused media platform sharing stories from the frontlines of progress - exploring what’s working in the world and the people making it happen.Subscribe & follow:If you enjoyed this episode, follow the podcast and leave a review - it helps more people find these stories.Production credits:Hosted by Angus Hervey and Amy Davoren-RoseProduced by Fix The NewsAudio production: Anthony Badolato, Hear That! This episode was produced in Australia on the lands of the Gadigal, Wurundjeri and Woi Wurrung peoples.

Forget about what's happened in the past. Forget about what state our world is in now. Let's just fix it up. And let's start by fixing ourselves. And we can't heal the planet if we don't fix ourselves first as people. Then find happiness within each other and find forgiveness and just walk forward. And I say that to everybody. It doesn't matter who you are.

Welcome to Fix the News. I'm Amy. I'm Gus, and these are stories from the front lines of progress. Gus, I have been waiting six years to have this conversation with Victor Steffenson. I first came across him back at the beginning of 2020. We were having our black summer. The country was burning. There were wildfires everywhere.

This crazy virus called coronavirus was just starting to filter into the headlines. And so we were all glued to our television for updates. And there was so much information coming at us. And then I see this man stand up on this program and he's responding to what's happening. And he was talking about indigenous fire practices, which I had never ever heard about. And he could explain that it's the way that we'd been managing the land

that had kind of gotten us into this mess. And you know how when you're in a crisis, there's always that one person who's really grounded and you are just kind of like, oh, okay, this guy's got this. That's how I felt listening to Victor. We look at people like that and they say, okay, you've got the way, you've got the roadmap. But I actually think that he would probably reject that. And I think that he himself would say that he isn't the one who has a roadmap.

In fact, I think he would probably say that roadmaps are part of the problem, right? That we all love roadmaps. We want to model. we want a one size fit all solution. You know, tell us the technique and the method, and we all scale it and do it everywhere. But I would actually say that his way of looking at the world and his way of operating is probably almost the polar opposite.

Yeah. Yeah. Because first you have to understand where you're standing. What kind of soil is underneath your feet? Or, you know, what belongs here? How does the water move through here? What are the animals doing? What is the history of this place? When was the last time you truly sat down and paid?

attention to the place that you are in and what is happening around you, which is a distinction that feels very interesting right now because everything we want to know in the world is at our fingertips and yet we're not paying attention to what's on our doorstep. It's interesting you say that because I was thinking about this a lot as I was reading his new book, The Knowledge, because we live with all of this information overload and at the same time we have this wisdom deficit. And the difference between wisdom and information, I really believe, is something that your nervous system feels.

It lands differently in your body. This conversation, I think, they're not all like this. But this is definitely one of those conversations that I came out thinking about things a little bit differently and a shift in kind of what I was seeing in the day to day. and one of the reasons that I found this conversation so compelling is that Victor has this quality, which is a quality embodied in all of the people who I find very compelling, which is congruence.

You know, what he says on the outside matches the story that he is telling himself on the inside, and I think that you can smell that, you can feel that. I really hope that for everyone listening, you take the time to take this conversation in because all I can say is, is that after six years in the making, it was worth the weight. When you look at a landscape like for home here in Australia,

I can see the loss of identity within those systems, places that should have native grasses. There's no grasses there anymore. It's just leaf litter on the ground or just bare dirt. There's no animals, there's not a sound. Within those ecosystems, not even a lizard scouring through the leaves. And sometimes flat out finding an ant in some places. that have been so degraded for so long from extraction and practices that had not been good for those

places and also taking people out of those areas from the first days of taking people off country. The loss of identity is the problem and restoring identity is the solution. And restoring the identity of our landscapes is the most important part of restoring our own identities as well. Because with the way technology is going, with the way the world is going, I think that's something that really grounds us and we need something to ground us. Victor, I finished your book, The Knowledge, quite early yesterday morning, I think was at about 7am. And over these last kind of 24 hours, it's been less about what I learned from the book and more about how the book made me feel. And it made me feel. And it made me feel,

settled and it made me feel included and it actually made me feel really, really hopeful. There's a line that you say, we are all indigenous to the planet. You know, it's sometimes very easy to go, well, I respect indigenous knowledge, but maybe it's not something that I can be part of. But you have this amazing piece toward the end of the book and it's all about us going back to our ancestral roots. And if we go back to our ancestral homelands, then it's less about learning and it's more like a remembering. Yeah, that's right. You know, we live in a world of separation and right from the very beginnings of colonisation. It happened in Europe and all over the

world, not just in Australia or in any other place. And when you look at people in Australia, they think, oh, Aboriginal Australia is only indigenous, everyone else is not. Like, yeah, it's true when you're on someone's land and they're not from this place, but they're indigenous from somewhere else. They come from somewhere. They're all human beings. They're all a product of nature. Each different continent has a different colonization process. When you look at Australia, 230 or 40 years now, or getting closer to 50, then you look back to America, it's over 400 years, and then you go other places to even further and further. And that has been something that's covered the world, and it's been something that's changed the world over time.

And when the earth starts to get sick or when things start to happen, it's a slow process. It's a slow transition. And slowly but surely people have been disconnected and disconnected from each other. And that separation has been a powerful tool that's been used in colonisation processes all over the world, separating people.

And even today, they still separate people. We see that separation everywhere, you know, where people go, oh, that's indigenous and we're not. And that is sickness within our world. And it's something that doesn't allow us to see what's really going on with our nature, with the system that overrules us, with the way we are. And it turns us on each other. And it's not a good thing.

And the people see themselves as, oh, I'm not indigenous. I'm not connected to that. That's not me. They've definitely lost their memory and lost that through their progress. process of their generations and where they are today. And it's such a disadvantage because that is a loss of identity. And we're not talking about the wars and we're not talking about things that have happened in the past. Everyone's had their feuds across all cultures for beginning at time. But we're talking about that connection and that that rose within that really connects

us to people to their place and also people with each other. and we've lost our way. And in the world that we live in, with the decline that we're seeing and the challenges ahead, we're going to need at least a thousand year vision, a 500 year minimal, if we're going to restore this planet.

It's not something that can be done overnight. It's not something that can be done by just planting trees everywhere. It really needs to go down to the depth of understanding who we are and understanding the really fine detail and how we look after this, all the different parts of the world in a way that restores its identity as close as possible,

that aligns with restoring our own. I hope this isn't a spoiler alert, but one of my favorite moments in the book is the moment, it was almost, I guess, like a spiritual experience, when you had the realization that the work you'd been doing in Australia around cultural, burning that actually your work was going to be much bigger than that. And it came when a woman came up to you after one of your fire burning talks. Would you mind sharing that story?

Because I just loved it. Well, I've already shared the story on paper. So people already reading that story. When I finished that talk years ago, that room was full of people. It was like a hundred more people in that room. And I did my talk. And then I walked down the stairs and the front of the stage. And I spotted that lady sitting with the husband. And she just eye contact straight away. And then she just reached out for me and grabbed me. And said, hey, I've got to tell you something.

And I said, yeah, what is it? And she goes, there was a woman standing next to you on the stage. I just hadn't been the first time someone said this, you know, having these experiences. experiences and she said to me, she was standing on stage and she was telling me something to tell you. Straight away, I thought, oh, it was, you know, my Nana. You know, a lot of people would think that straight away. And I thought, oh, it's from my indigenous side from Australia because I'm in Australia

and I was talking indigenous knowledge from Australia. And so immediately that's where my mind was trained. Then she says, it's a lady that's from your father's side, which was the Stephenson. which is up in the Norwegians, you know, Sweden up in that part of the world. And she said, oh, she's got a message to tell you. The message is first to lighten up. And I took that on straight away. And that was quite funny.

Because I was so serious, you know, because back then I was a lot younger. And I was like, you know, we've got to really got to do this and taking it so seriously and really angry at the government as well and system, which when you're young, you're hot-headed a bit more. And so I took that on board. The second thing, she said, there's a knowledge even more deeper than what you're talking about and know, it's a greater knowledge. And so from that point, I went out and thought about it, knowledge greater.

What could be greater than one of the oldest cultures in the world I'm talking about here in Australia? And immediately, me thinking that way was imprisoned the way I would have to think that, hey, it's only this big, it's only comes from this place. And then I realized years later thinking about that and I've traveled around and went to different places and looked at rock art sites and different parts of the world. And then I realized, you know, that, ah, the answer to that riddle. It's the knowledge that underpins us all. And so that's when I was like, ah, I would need to get out. I need to try and see if I can demonstrate this knowledge and other parts of the world and learn more about it and see if it's true and see if that can be right.

And it pretty much it is. And I know when I was writing that in a book, I was like, I thought, oh, you know, these people are going to think this fellow's talking about spirits and all about these crazy or something like them. But you know what? They need to hear it.

And we're in a time and place right now where you need to hear these things. And so I just wrote it because that is part of the journey. And it's part of the journey to try and find the work that I'm here to do. Victor, I really want to hear a little bit more about the work that you've been doing in other places,

which really is about this bigger picture of the knowledge. And I'm curious specifically to hear about your experience of seeing those knowledge systems rub up against Western colonial knowledge or Western colonial methods. Those two things often feel like they're in opposition, right? But also, when they rub up against each other, that creates friction. And sometimes friction can be generative and can create new things too. Yeah, well, when you look at

people say this a lot. Indigenous knowledge and Western knowledge coming together and those things and it's a bit of a cliche sometimes when you hear them say that all the time and all the years of doing this work and like applying all this stuff onto country and even now we're doing research ourselves.

We're applying monitoring and doing tests on stuff and testing soils and things like that. What it shows is that it validates that knowledge and it validates that all knowledge system. When we apply that practice and all the positive things come back and the country responds the right way and that's a validation on its own. So when Western science comes along,

it's a new knowledge system. It's young. It's so young. And when it comes to nature, it's trying to find what's true. It doesn't have a lot of experience, specifically around practice. So when I look at all the science work,

I see that they're just validating what was already there. And so they match up in a way of, oh, yes, you're right what you do, because we can see through our findings and our test that it's actually coming to that point. And I see so many papers that are written, they go, ah, you know, indigenous knowledge is good for this, or fire is good for that, or this is that. And I go, ah, yeah, you're trying to work that out now. Oh, then a big fish is bad for pregnant women, the mercury. I don't know.

Well, people knew that through food laws, you know, a long time ago. and I hear all these things, and even in the diet area too. And I see the similarities in traditional food laws and what modern doctors are working out with foods. So I see that validation that comes from that. And that's where I see the importance of Western knowledge in a sense of it's a language. And it's a language that needs to be supporting all knowledge systems

so that it can help people to understand true knowledge and where things are at. but when I see Western practice and scientists on their own and not connected to Indigenous knowledge, then that's what's formed how the Western knowledge burns at times of year. They're still trying to work that out. Their practices aren't really the same

and aligned to how we're practicing. And that is something that's driven by policy and driven by control of that process. Still today in Australia, we haven't had the ability to demonstrate this knowledge base and the practices on a big scale to really demonstrate its worth. And so we can't even do that because the system won't let us. And so it's the system there that really is getting in the way

of what really can be happening here in terms of rebuilding our knowledge because I believe that Western science working with traditional knowledge systems can help us uncover old knowledge systems and really give us more depth and understanding of who we are and the planet we live on. But it's that system that Western science belongs to that won't allow that process to happen. And then it gets to separate people. Science becomes, you know, some people, oh, I believe science. I don't believe physical knowledge.

I don't do that. That separation comes back in again. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Yeah, because... Otherwise, if science was pure, it would allow us to demonstrate. It would listen to us and it would give us the opportunities. I really like it.

To me, what comes out of this, look, science is just understanding or the naming. And that's great. It's really, really good at that. But, you know, there's so much more to this. I can see Amy's filled like a thousand questions here. Can you quickly tell us a story about maybe something that you learned when you were overseas from your various visits to Canada, Europe, the United States. What have you seen?

You're always learning new things, you know? That's the first I want to say that. But what I'm learning when I travel is that commonality and those connections. And that's where the dots join. And that learning process of seeing those dots join is like, wow, I can see now. I can see how this relates to this. and I can see how they...

Can you tell us specifically, like an example of where you've seen the... Yeah. Yeah, so when they teach me about a tree, for example, in their relationship with that tree, and then they talk about what they use that tree for and how important it is to them. And then I can see, that's the same as our tree.

And then when I look at, say, the fir tree, I say in the book, and I see the bark, and it's exactly the same as our iron bark tree at home. Then I look at the stones and the way the soils are around it's sitting and how it's very similar to our tree back home in terms of our iron barks. And then when I see the fire and what had done the wrong time of the year and how the land responded to that wrong temperature and that wrong fire within that same soil type, the same response within our tree back at home.

And so what the land is teaching me through those similarities through landscapes, that stuff is like, wow. And for Western science, they might look at it and go or someone and go, oh, well, that's a pine tree and it's a eucalyp, you're crazy. But they don't see the indicators, they don't see all those other parts that show those similarities. Just like how we're different people around the world, we all look different, but we all have a lot of commonalities and similarities as people. And it's the same within trees and things like that. So when they talk about plants, they'll go, oh, yeah, we'll use it. is planned for South Roach and we boil up the leaf this way and we apply it that way.

And I go, oh, yeah, we've got to plan exactly the same. And we do the same thing. And so those commonalities are the things that really I learned that teach me so much because it allows me to elaborate more. It always expanding. It never stops. It's like the universe because it never ends. I'll never be able to fit it all in one lifetime.

But at the end of the day, it just keeps going. And it's those sort of findings and learnings that excite me the most. Okay, Amy, I have heard people say that we should incorporate more indigenous knowledge and traditional knowledge into our worldviews and into the way we do things. But I feel like so much of that is paying lip service to that idea. You know, I want to say to people, but what? Like, can you be specific? You know, which aspect of that are you talking about?

This was a conversation where for the first time in a really long time, I kind of went, yes, this, that. That is something really important. And what really stands up for me is Western science as a new knowledge system. Yeah. Which is something I haven't really thought of before. It's a knowledge system that has its antecedence going back thousands of years. But certainly when you think about the scientific revolution, that's something that is too 300 years old. That feels like an ancient way of doing things. But when Victor looks at it,

he says, oh no, this is a young knowledge system. It's young and it's very powerful, but it's kind of like a teenager. It doesn't know its own strength. It doesn't know what all that strength can do. And sometimes that strength is misapplied. I also think that maybe these categories are confusing us. Western knowledge, indigenous knowledge, Western science versus traditional science, traditional ways of understanding. I think that that those labels maybe distract us from what we're really talking about here. And I think this is part of the magic of Victor Stephenson, is that he can bring everyone along for the ride.

For anybody who doesn't know Victor's backstory, it's important to clock that at this point, because he wasn't raised with the knowledge. As he said earlier, his mother was indigenous, his father's heritage was from Europe. So he didn't necessarily grow up with this wisdom and with these practices. It was something that he had to learn. And he learned it as this young man who traveled up to the Cape York Peninsula,

and these two elders took him under their wing and basically started to teach him how to read country. Now that completely changed the course of Victor's life. So when he talks about this process, when he talks about remembering and regaining your identity, he's not talking from some kind of abstract idea. He has lived this. And I think one of the most foundational things is something called the Knowledge Triangle. I put together the Knowledge Triangle

around a fire and the sand. And one night with all the old people and back then I was recording knowledge with cameras with the old people and recording plants and trees. And there was a process in that to make sure that everything was captured and everything was complete.

The Knowledge Triangle is really is the process of life. and it is the method, it is the design as well in how things are done. Indigenous knowledge is a practical language. It's not something that's discussed in a meeting room. And so the knowledge triangle, it shows life within fire, which is oxygen, heat and fuel. And when you look at us as humans, it's food, water and oxygen.

And those three points keep us alive. So it's a living process. And when I demonstrated that knowledge triangle within the knowledge, The latest book, it was around the revival of knowledge and how we can rebuild knowledge from landscapes, from nature itself. A lot of communities I work with say, oh, we've our elders have lost certain knowledge and we don't have that sort of information anymore, although they do have cultural knowledge. There are bits and pieces that aren't quite there because practice has been suppressed for so long. That's the part that gets lost first. and that, for example, when they stopped us from burning the land in Australia

and when Smoky Bear happened in America and Canada and stopped people from lighting fires and for indigenous people 50 years ago getting put in jail for lighting fires, that was breaking that practice. And so that's why a lot of communities in a lot of places, not just in fire, but many practices have lost that knowing how to do and the way that I work with communities from Australia and even overseas working with communities.

I apply those principles of language, practice and country. And that is a way that I've been working to try and find the right practice for country and help communities to really try and find that practice that they may have lost through their culture. Victor, we hear a lot about the climate crisis in the news and in headlines, but one of the biggest reframes after reading the book was that the big crisis we're facing in the world is actually an identity crisis. And that's both for people and planet. Can you talk us through this a bit? So if the land loses its identity, then sure enough, humans have lost their identity, and who they are and how they're connected to nature and the planet. And that's exactly what we see.

And the old people told me this long time ago, and it was such brilliant. It was that the people and country will go together. And the old people will say, when I die, the land going to die with me. And this is coming from elders that they were walking in psychopedias, that knew the land back to front. I knew how important it was for that culture and that knowledge to exist on that landscape. Hence why they wanted to hand that knowledge down the next generations and why that's so important, you know?

And he said, when we die, the land will go with it and it will decline. And what that's shown you is people and country are connected. They're one. And as the land loses identity, we lose identity. And we see mayhem. We see the problems socially in our world today where people are separated and start to, you see the sicknesses and the problems. Then also you see the land with the same problem. It all moves together.

It's the same. are nature. We're not separate. And so that scale has to reverse. And we need to reverse that scale where we're restoring identity at the same level. So as we're restoring the planet, we need to restore our identity as well. And that's why this process is so important around indigenous knowledge. When we're actually restoring the land that way, we're finding out who we are. And we see cultures that are going, oh, yeah, now we've got that bit of back in our culture. I can see how it matches with this language and now

and what we lost back here. And it's restoring our identities. And it makes people feel really good inside. And so when we look at language, for example, and people would say, oh, yeah, we know a word for that country. It's a name that's been around for so long. And that name might mean big scrub, for example, or sandy place, big sandy place.

And then when I look at that place, it's not sandy or it's not a scrubbed there anymore. It's changed. And so the language helps us to how things were. Even memory of what the elders remember when they were little what they saw on the land. All that sort of stuff is so important in reviving knowledge. And then we see practice. And practice is the application. And that's where we'll say, okay, well, this country looks very similar to this.

So maybe if we burn here, it'll go out there and we'll see grasses come back and we'll see animals come back that actually represent that big scrub or whatever that identity was through that old language system and knowledge. Then we apply the practice and then finally country has the last response. The grasses come back. The trees, the right trees grow back that resemble what was there before. And that is a way that I've been working to try and find the right practice for country. and help communities to really try and find that practice that they may have lost through their culture, because that's another important indicator that we're restoring their identities because of the good feeling and happiness that they're getting.

And not a lost and confused, they start to feel hopeful, which is what you said earlier when you read the book. That is an example of a good outcome of restoring identity and just the beginnings of so much more. that restoring your identity is the solution for everything you can think of everything it's going to help us with improving agriculture it's going to help us with bringing back extinction from the animals and you know putting food back on the land and putting the plants back on the land it's going to help with the wildfires and it's going to help us as people to live with nature better and a better health level for us as well and it's going to help us with the economy if we learn to restore identity of lands alongside our economies,

and that's where innovation really comes around. That's something that people need to really understand here because we're stuck in a place where, oh, we're going to do carbon, we're going to grow trees, we're going to do this. And so there's all this money. We'll pay you this money if you go and burn all this country through carbon and all this sort of stuff. But it's actually far more detailed than that.

And we live in a world where, okay, let's just plant thousands of trees around, but they're not the right trees for those systems. And they're not the right thing for that country. And so it's going to cause more problems down the track. We're going to see more problems because we're not really doing it in a really intimate and fine, detailed way rather than, yes, it's just about carbon. No, it's not just about carbon. Because if we restore the identity of the land, don't you think we're sorting?

our carbon. I think we need to be going down a detail of what we can actually see. And that is, oh, there's a plant missing here. Let's try and see we can get it back up. These things are missing in this ecosystem. And so when I go to my country here, you know, go around different places, I've been taught so well by the elders of the identity of these ecosystems. And when I walk in, I go, oh, no, this place is sick. It hasn't have this and that because we know the soil type. We know these parent trees, and even the trees, look at them, they're so unhappy. They're canopies that are so frail and gray leaves and they're not really, it's not really looking good. And so we apply a reactivation process.

Why practices just try and restore that land? It's not about going and doing it and go, okay, let's plan all this and do all this. That's a human action and a human decision. Restoring identity of the planet is about activation. and how we first listen to the landscape and go, right, what do you need? You look sick. Let's look at old practices

and let's apply it and see how you respond. And you tell us, through your response, are we doing the right thing? I would really love to hear about a specific place. Maybe even with specific people where you saw the land restored through some of these practices you're talking about and what did it used to look like

and what does it look like today? Yeah, yeah, sure. So just recently, just up in a property, I've been called Cangeny, up in North Queensland, land that was a cattle farm for so long and just weeds everywhere

and a lot of the place. And the first step for anyone was to put poison on it, you know, and start poisoning things. But by looking at the landscape and its identity and the type of trees that it had, I could see that we could apply our fire which is it belonged to fire in a way that could get rid of those weeds and bring back the right

type of grasses. And it's a tedious process we would like this type of weed and that type. We'll probably separate a lot of those weeds in a way and come back and do constant burning over a couple of years to try and put those right temperatures in the soil that the native grasses depend on. And trying to put back the right type of fire, even with the wrong fuel, and the wrong types of vegetation to try and activate the right type of seeds within those soils and those places. And we look at the right timing in terms of weather, in terms of moisture, in terms of all these things that will help us put that fire in, that puts that fire at a certain temperature that's going to activate that country in a way that will help it restore itself

and start that restoration process of bringing up the right plant, plants and grasses as the indicator of success. Now I go back there what was once all stylo, which was a type of weed that came in with the cattle feed and just covered the whole landscape. Now there's all kangaroo grasses and native kangaroo grasses there, just the sea of all of that across the landscape. And that makes you smile, you know.

And that is really around that identity and that really sits in memory within landscapes. of knowing, okay, we've got the wrong fuel load here, but we know what country it is with the parentries, and we also know what type of fire belongs to that country in terms of its temperature. Then we would look at, okay, we'll burn this time a year to mimic the right temperature that time,

and then next year we'll burn this time, and then teaching our practitioners how to be adapting their fire to bring up, to activate that land, and to bring back those species. We need to have time for the land to respond. and for land they go, yep, you're on the right road here, and we haven't done a whole, we haven't forced anything on that land of what we think or some program tells us to do

because they're going to pay us dollars to do it. And so it really is about the activation of landscapes that will bring about the change that we're looking for. And I see that across so many sites and so many landscapes that I work on, and that's what keeps us going. And while we're doing our own research through the Living Knowledge Network, as well and trying to get a whole of our own research and employ our own scientists and things like that, so that we can continue to work this way freely so that we can continue to share the

outcomes. As I said, Victor, I have walked away from, I'll walk away from this conversation and I've also walked away from your book with this real feeling of hope. And there is a line and you say to restore hope, we simply need to get on with the job of cleaning up the mess, no matter who is responsible. What is the possibility here if we all start to get our hands dirty, if we all return home? Yeah, well, firstly, we need to clean up the mess regardless of who's responsible. That is such an important starting point because people are so fragmented. It's not about the blame game.

You can't blame anyone or point the finger or anyone, and that's so easy to do. And it's also a gesture of separation to go, it's their fault. It's their fault. That shows how shallow our society has become. You also have to understand that people didn't know what they're doing as well a lot of the time. Although we were pushed as people to do things and work in certain industries and whatever it may be to put food on the table. And little do we know that we're destroying the,

world while we do it. It's not their fault. They don't know, you know, they're just not aware. And it's, we're just trapped in this mindset that it has to be done this way. It's the policy. It's like, it's the law and I'll lose my job if I don't do it this way and all this sort of stuff that we're trapped into. And so it really is about, okay, forget about all that. Forget about what's happened in the past. Forget about what state our world is in now. Let's just fix it up. Let's start by understanding each other. And let's let's start by fixing ourselves. And we can't heal the planet if we don't fix ourselves first as people and connect and find

happiness within each other and find forgiveness and just walk forward. And I say that to everybody. It doesn't matter who you are. Because if you're pointing the finger at someone else or saying that someone's lesser or different culture than you've certainly lost the plot, we all got to do it together. it's something that needs all of us on board because it's not just about being out there and healing the land and doing the work out there

it's also socially about people talking about it around the bar or at the restaurant going on, what they're doing there is good instead of, oh, they're rubbish, oh, they don't know what they're doing, they're not talking about, and they're not even Aboriginal or they're not this. And so you get all this shallow,

and really horrible sort of language that all contributes to suppressing opportunity. And so working together and just getting on with healing the planet is something that we need to do. And we try and demonstrate that by working with everyone through the work we do. And so I really believe that all our solutions through Indigenous knowledge need to benefit everybody. Because that's the blueprints of Mother Nature. a tree will benefit everything in its environment. It'll give us the beautiful air. It helps with our air to breathe

and its roots go deep in the ground and look after our soils and it feeds other plants as well and other plants won't grow unless that tree is there. It feeds the animals with its fruits. It brings shade for the kangaroo to sleep under. It gives people all those different uses from the bark and the leaf, the fruit,

the sap, the roots. It contributes to everything and benefits everything, and that's what that tree does. Everything benefits everything. And if you're going to apply indigenous knowledge solutions, then if it doesn't benefit everything and everyone, then it's not the right solution. It's not an indigenous knowledge application because it's not living. It's not a part of that nature. And what we're doing is trying to find new ideas for industries that thrive the environment

so that people who are working for extraction companies, We need to find new industries that are doing that so they can get a job to feed their families that actually is good for the planet. Everything we do as humans needs to thrive nature. That's the key. Everything we do needs to thrive the environment. And that is how humans realign themselves with nature. Nature has to be the first beneficiary at everything we do,

not a company, not an individual, not a greedy person. our government system, nature needs to be the first beneficiary. And that is what indigenous people have been doing for so long. They've thrived the environment with their existence. But when the settlers came to Australia, everything was here. The waters were crystal clear, the sandy banks and sand everywhere, and all the animals were here. And there was the people here that had been here for thousands of years.

And the animals and everything were still thriving. And the trees were 1,000-plus years old. they're massive. And so there's nothing that anyone can say that can take away the fact that people have been living there for thousands of years and they didn't destroy it. And that is the greatest achievement of mankind to this day, regardless of all the technologies and all these things. Because what's good of all of that innovation and all this technology and AI and stuff

if our planet is not a beneficiary and it's declining. It certainly shows that we're not doing the right thing. And so that's the blueprints of Mother Nature. And that's what the indigenous knowledge have learned. They've learned and refined that application in a way that benefits everything. And that is the law of our human action. So how we bring that into the modern sense in the world we live in today, well, people will go, that's almost impossible.

Because look at us. We've just lost the way, our way, you know. No, we've got so much problems. But the thing is, the response of the land and what I'm talking about is magic. And if it can be demonstrated and it can be shown and it can be shared, it will only enlighten. And it can only show what's possible. And to find that right combination and understanding of how we need to be restoring our

own system, our own governance, our own economy. relationships with each other, identities, everything that you can think of will come from the health of our planet. Amy, I don't think it's controversial. You could go to anyone and you could say to them, we should treat nature with more reverence and importance than anything else. No one would disagree with you. You don't find the anti-nature lobby. They're not really strong. So again, it just feels like one of those things that you just pay lip service to. But when Victor says, no, our ultimate goal should be to make nature flourish, it just lands differently.

I've heard various versions of that idea my entire life. But when he said it, I could feel that kind of in my body. And I wonder if that's because for him, this is something that he practices. He's out there doing it. He spent decades working in different landscapes, lighting fire. watching it happen. He is on country and he's looking and learning from what is coming back there. I think that people have lots of ideas on how to live and how the world should be. But only a small handful of those people have a message that actually gets through.

And those are people who've earned that wisdom. They've earned that knowledge. They've earned the right to give us that message. And I think Victor is one of the people that has earned the right to give us that message. Look, I love any conversation that finishes with the word magic somewhere in those final paragraphs. But this isn't a tap your magic wand and everything's better kind of magic. I mean, what Victor is talking about, this is like multi-generational work. Practical, practical magic.

It is, it is practical magic in every sense of the word. And the thing about practical magic is that even though you are working toward an outcome, which for us and our kids and our kids, kids and their kids will not see the outcomes of it. The magic is that it changes you. It changes your relationship with the world. It makes you feel part of something. And I think at a point where there is so much separation and there is so much finger pointing, I mean, that in itself is magic.

It makes me think about the word practical in a very different way all of a sudden. Like, practical is not logical. Practical is you do the thing. That's why it's practical. I haven't thought of that before. Yeah. And isn't that wisdom that we've lost a lot? We're very good at talking.

We're very good at talking. We're very good at agreeing. Yeah. Less intellectual, more practical. More practical. Bring it on. We will pop links to Victor's work into the show notes, where you can get the book

and where you can find out more about what him and his crew are doing out there. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did. Can I just finish with a word of warning? We have a long list of people that we want to chat to on this podcast. And even if we have to wait six years, we will find you. And we will have that conversation. That's true.

We know there are a lot of podcasts out there. It means a lot to us that you chose this one. It's made possible by a lot. are paying subscribers. So if you're one of them, a big thank you. And if you want to support what we do, you can find us at fixthenews.com. This show was produced by Amy Rose with audio by Anthony Badalato from Here That. It was made in Australia on the lands of the Gadigal, Wurundry and Waiwerong peoples. If you liked it, hit subscribe, leave a review or send it to someone you love who needs to hear us.

Thanks for listening.