Hope Is A Verb - Ronni Abergel - The library where you borrow people, not books

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Meet Ronni Abergel, founder of the Human Library Organisation where, instead of books, real people are on loan to readers. For over two decades, this global movement has created a safe space to talk openly about taboo topics. At Ronni’s library, a conversation with a refugee, a transgender or a bipolar person is equally possible, open, and informative.   Find out more about the Human Library: https://humanlibrary.org/ https://www.instagram.com/humanlibraryorganization/ https://www.facebook.com/humanlibraryorg/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/human-library-organization This episode of Hope Is A Verb was hosted by Angus Hervey, cofounder of Future Crunch and Amy Davoren-Rose, creative director. The soundtrack for this podcast is "Rain" composed and performed by ⁠⁠⁠El Rey Miel ⁠⁠⁠from their upcoming album "Sea the Sky." Audio Sweetening by Anthony Badolato- ⁠⁠⁠Ai3 Audio and Voice⁠⁠⁠. You can contact us at: [e-mail]

Welcome to Season 2 of Hope is a Verb, a podcast that explores what it takes to change the world through conversations with the people that are making it happen. I'm Amy. I'm Gus, and these are the unknown heroes who are mending our planet, stitching together a better future, and showing us the unknown heroes who are mending our planet, stitching together a better future, and showing us the best of what it means to be human. Similar to your community library, we are a library full of books. But our books are real people, human beings that volunteered and said,

I have a lived experience that I think other people could benefit from knowing about, and I know a lot of people have questions about it, but they don't have a safe space to ask those questions. It's a skill we all need to practice. I recommend reading as many human beings as you can. When was the last time you had a conversation with someone outside your social network? I don't mean the kind of polite small talk that we often make with strangers, but a real honest conversation with someone whose experience and view of the

world is different or maybe even completely opposite to yours. Well, Ronnie Abergill is on a mission to dismantle our echo chambers and reconnect us through our diversity, one conversation at a time. His organization, The Human Library, started as a one-off event at a local music festival in Denmark. Today, it's an international bestseller that's hosted over a million conversations across more than 80 countries. From Australia to Madagascar, he's invited people to build bridges back to each other across some of our greatest social divides. Ronnie, welcome to Hope is a Verb. We are so pleased to have you on the podcast. Thank you, Gus. It's my pleasure. Appreciate the invitation. I feel like the human library is something that I have known about for a really long time.

We're really looking forward to diving into the story, finding out a little bit more about where it came from and finding out a little bit more about yourself. But we wanted to kick off with a question that we like to ask all of our guests. Is there a news story that's giving you hope right now? Sure. I hear the morning radio news every day from six to nine. It runs in the background of my mornings, getting my kids out and everything. The thing I look forward to is every time

they bring a segment about the local story of a group of young people that are really trying to put pressure on the government to take the climate agenda more serious because they have the courage and the youth to say what many adults are somehow unable to say. That what we're doing is inadequate, that we need to do a lot more, and that these baby steps they're taking is just not going to lead to any significant change. That's what I'm optimistic about.

But you caught me almost there. I was having a difficult time finding a lot of lights right now because I do think it's a quite somber time. I'm finding a lot of lights right now because I do think it's a quite somber time. And I'm disillusioned by the violent acts of man, specifically, obviously, in the Ukraine and in the Middle East right now. But there are also many other armed conflicts. And I can't still fathom in 2023 why we as a species have not progressed from this type of interaction with each other. I find this type of violence to be unacceptable. And I mean just completely unacceptable. And so I don't know how we can reach a global consensus,

but war should be illegal. And solutions must be found in other ways. There's something I'm really curious to ask you a little bit more about. You said in the year 2023, these things shouldn't be happening. And as someone that is involved in the work of trying to have conversations across gulfs of understanding, and someone who's trying to bridge those gaps, do you think it's something to do with the quality of our conversations or something to do with the way that we speak to each other and the way we think about each other? To some extent, obviously, yes. If you can't paint

a group in a certain way, you cannot find support in a population to take certain steps against another group. Obviously, in Russia, the population has been told that something really wrong is going on in Ukraine, and they probably buy into that story. What they're taking advantage of, the people who are rising to power using the polarizing agenda and rhetorics, is that we don't have enough connection with each other. Because if we were, we would be able to call out what they're saying and say, look, I know people who are this religion or that background or that ethnic group, and that's not true what you're saying. But we socialize a lot with people that

look like ourselves. We don't have strong enough connections across this community. And that's how we can be pitted against each other. And it's a damn shame because it's something that didn't used to be this way. Obviously, politicians were always trying to get attention and bring support behind their visions. But they were, at least the way I perceived it, talking into more of a unification agenda where the politicians of this time seem to be more focused on shouting, screaming and polarizing

and creating larger gaps between us than actually bridging divides, which is discouraging. So if we as a species cannot find common ground and work together, how are we going to save the planet? So while I'm an optimist and I'm going to keep pushing, what we're working to do at the Human Library is to create safe spaces

where we can learn about each other, not be judged, maybe unjudge each other, and more importantly, try to find understanding for the ways in which we're different. Because when you understand somebody, you don't have to agree, but when you understand where other people are coming from and why they are the way they are, you're a lot more keen to accept them. So I have to stress, we are not working for tolerance and we're also not a combat organization. We're not fighting prejudices in this more activistic approach. We're more neutral space saying, hey, come in and challenge what you think you know, maybe find common ground, maybe agree to disagree. But when you walk out of there, you're going to understand somebody else

and that's going to make you accept their right to be different. And that is what we all ask, the right to be accepted, to be the humans we want to be. Oh, Ronnie, there is so much to unpack in what you just said, but also in this idea of creating safe and neutral spaces where people can ask the questions, where they can let their defenses down, where they can start to build bridges. For anyone who's listening that maybe hasn't heard of the Human Library, can you just tell us exactly what it is and how it works? Can you just tell us exactly what it is and how it works? Similar to your community library, we are a library full of books, but our books are real people, human beings that volunteered and said, I have a lived experience that I think other people could benefit from knowing about. And I know a lot of people have questions about it, but they don't have a safe space to ask

those questions. So I'd volunteer my lived experience. And these are typically people coming from groups in our community that experience misunderstandings, prejudice, bias, discrimination. Some are even the victim of hate crimes. We try to create a space where all these diversity of stereotypes can be challenged. So we have a person who is autistic or someone who is transgender or a police officer or a journalist or a politician or someone who's polyamorous or disabled or bipolar or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist. you would want to talk about, we would have them on the bookshelf for you and then you borrow them just like you would a real book for half an hour and ask them any question on the topic. When I was an open book, my topic was a bereavement. I'm a widower, unfortunately. 10 years ago, my wife suddenly passed away from a heart illness and I experienced on my own body, the social stigma that comes with this sudden tragic

trauma that we incurred, because a lot of people don't know what to say. And all of a sudden, believe it or not, you that are in grief, in mourning, it becomes your social burden to relieve them of their distress about your situation. You have to tell them, don't worry, it's going all right, we're doing okay. You have to make them feel comfortable with your loss. Now, in what kind of culture do we live where socially the person who is embattled, who is lying down, has to be the one to tell the people standing around, looking down at that person who fell over because life punched them in the face, that they have to feel comfortable standing up there. That's part of what we're trying to achieve

is a space where we can talk about these things. Talk about why obesity maybe makes you feel uncomfortable or you don't feel socially safe around people with tattoos on their face because you don't know what to expect from their behavior or address the elephant in the room. You are fearful of people with Muslim background because you've seen things in the media and you don't have a personal contact with people that are Muslim to balance out. And so our library gives you half an hour to ask any question you want. The books will not be offended. You can ask very difficult questions like, how did your parents react when you realized you were transgender? Or how did your friends support you when you got your diagnosis of OCD? So many important, courageous conversations that we're not having.

Ask any question that you have the courage to ask. Be respectful. Bring the book back on time. Bring it back in the same condition it was given to you. Do not take it home. Those are the rules. Other than that, we're a very neutral space. Look at the library as an institution and ask yourself, who's welcome there? Everyone. Exactly. Now show me another place in our community that is as inclusive and as equalitarian in the sense that once you have a library card,

everyone has the same rights. It's a beautiful institution. It's 6,000 years old, and it's something we need to treasure. And what we do is we partner with libraries in Australia and in more than 80 countries around the world and host local human library events to offer communities access to their community. I have actually never thought of our libraries in quite that way. And this is such an incredibly simple yet intricate and powerful concept. What inspired you to do this? I was always the type of child that if I saw something different in front of me, I'd call it out. I didn't have that filter. I would burst out and my mom would say, Ronnie, you can't say that. You shouldn't do that. You can't point fingers at people on the street or in different social contexts, like big family dinners and things. My mom would give me a tap under the table with her foot if I was going down somewhere that I shouldn't.

was strange, different, weird, odd, out of the ordinary, I would call that out right there. It was an impulse. I wanted to know. I was curious. So I think that lies deep within me that I'm curious to understand people who are different. When I jumped this idea on my fellow human library co-creators, we had this invitation from a festival. We wanted to come up with something. And I said to them, what if we brought some of the most unpopular stereotypes together and put them on low and we also build up reservations about certain groups because of assumptions we make and we thought it could be healthy to provide that safe space where you could try to challenge those assumptions and not feel judged and one of my team members said but what if nobody shows i said said, well, if nobody shows, all these different people will sit there and talk to each other while we wait. So we can win small or we can win big.

If readers actually come and it works, we'll win big. We've been winning ever since because we had over a thousand readers at the first event. And I'm like, we have to do something more for this thing because it actually works. It actually changes people. Because imagine knowing people from a variety of groups and communities. What does that enable you to do? Mobilize resources, connect, gain insight. Once you start connecting more widely, you're finding yourselves listening to music, eating food, and talking about things that

normally you not have access to. That's going to make your life richer. What I love about this idea is that instead of judging books by their cover, Ronnie is inviting us to be curious enough to read each other. Like any good librarian, Ronnie takes measures to ensure his human books are vetted and treated really well, training them how to answer challenging questions and set boundaries. Frameworks like this that create social safety are just so important. Because at a time when our political and cultural divisions feel wider than ever, listening to the story of a person who stands on the other side of an issue might just be the most radical thing we can do. You've been doing this for 23 years now.

Do one or two stories or moments really stand out for you? One or two real kind of classic human library tales? Many things stand out to me. I'm very rich, I think, on experiences and on journeys. And we have to divide the journeys into several layers here because this is much more complex than what it looks like on the surface. First of all, let's talk about the winners from the concept. The books win because when they get to understand the questions that readers have and talk about their answers, they get to understand

themselves and they get to understand what other people in the community think or know or do not know about them. So it helps them understand themselves and their place in the community and what challenges they're facing, communicating more openly about who are we, why are we here. And then readers win because they may walk around a little bit apprehensive or careful or nervous or even fearful of certain groups that they could now dismantle these fears, connect into the community and see that there's nothing to be afraid of. Sure, they could now dismantle these fears, connect into the community and see that there's nothing to be afraid of. Sure, they're different, but there's a lot here that I understand after meeting and connecting. The community wins when we understand each other

because we work together. We have higher quality of life. We help and support each other. We respect each other's right to be in the space. Community will be more thriving for all. So that is the purpose of the library, to give us all a greater quality of life, to be understood. Raise your hand if you don't want to be understood. I don't see any hands raised. Every person on this planet is yearning to be understood. And in order to be that, we also have to provide that understanding for others. You got to give something to get something, guys. That's my point here. So I've met people

whose life have changed because of our library. And I mean, literally changed. I've seen an obese schizophrenic person in six years, drop the weight, drop the meds, get a job as a recovery mentor, be cleared of schizophrenia, and end up marrying and having a child and becoming a mother. I've seen people that would vote for Trump sit down and connect with people that feel very much different from them. And at the end of that conversation, almost be friends. And I'm touched by the courage every day of our books. I respect the courage of our readers that we're asking a lot from them. This is not a passive format, but our books are the most brave people that I've ever met. I'm a global publisher of people. I'm a proud and humble global publisher of people. And I hope even more will come in as we open our new online platform now.

We're able to serve thousands and thousands of readers. In and amongst all of these stories, Ronnie, which are just so great to hear, and on the one hand, completely overwhelming, but on the other hand, it just makes sense. The idea is so powerful and such a strong concept that it doesn't surprise me in many respects that it's been so popular and has achieved such incredible uptake. As you've watched these tens of thousands,

maybe even hundreds of thousands of conversations take place over the last 23 years of this project, is this something that you've noticed about the art of conversation? Is there a way to have better conversations? Yes, there is. There are always a way to have better conversations? Yes, there is. There are always a way to have better conversations, but since every person is different, you can't point to one way and say that's the right way. But there's a way for each and every one of us to find out how we can have better conversations. Some of us are

really good at seeking those spaces to have these difficult conversations and others are not very good at it. We are a safe space to practice that. So I offer you access to say, hey, come and practice. Maybe the first one is going to be a lot difficult for you because you're not used to it. But the second one be much better. And by the third borrowing, third loan, you're going to feel the empowerment that this gives. Because I'd be the first to say,

I judge. So nobody listening into this amazing podcast should sit there and feel, wow, okay, this holy guy is telling us we shouldn't judge nobody. Yeah, no. I'm in fact the first one to admit that I have judged a lot. And it's cut me off from a lot of opportunity in my youth. lot and it's cut me off from a lot of opportunity in my youth. I was limited in my perspective. I was young. I wasn't mature, but I'm just saying there's a lot of people I could have had great friendships and relationships with that I didn't because I deselected them for reasons of intolerance, to be honest. And I still catch myself judging because it's part of our built-in human navigation system. If you didn't have this system, you wouldn't go out on the street because you wouldn't know how to navigate. You'd be afraid. Okay. I've got a big question for you.

When did we lose the art of having honest conversations and why? Well, I'm not sure we stopped, but I think we moved them into much smaller groups and much more reserved spaces. It's our social norms that changed. I can't tell you historically exactly when or where, but we became more and more private and there are certain vulnerabilities. We're afraid of the repercussions. Let's say all three of us were friends and we had a circle of trust. Let's say I found out I was HIV. And if I have trust, I will come out and we can share this. And you two will be my allies. And it'll be less of a burden for me because I have understanding from my friends. Basically, you're making my life easier to live with HIV because you're not isolating from

me. You're not afraid it's contagious. You know that if I'm well treated, it's not, etc. You're informed. Okay. If I don't have that trust, I won't tell you. So we have no larger spaces for trust any longer. The psychological safety has somehow been removed because our social norms got more and more tight and we just keep certain information and vulnerabilities to ourselves. And I wish I could solve that puzzle while we do that, but I think it's because of fear. We are afraid of what people will think, what people will say, how they will react, how they will respond. And we have good reason to be afraid because we've seen what happened to others around us. Nobody wants to be selected.

Nobody wants to be not included. And nobody wants to give you or anybody else a reason to think ill of me. So I'll keep that to myself for sake of continued acceptance. keep that to myself for sake of continued acceptance. I think what strikes me most about the human library is this idea that people can change, that they can open their minds, they can open their hearts. I've seen it. Yeah, yeah. I see it almost on a daily basis. I have seen grown men in suits, in leadership positions, cry, hug.

I've heard stories of readers meeting in one of our events online, one reader from France, one reader from Argentina. Today, they're a couple. You cannot walk away unscathed. I cannot tell you what's going to happen because it'll be different from every reader that walks in and for every book's journey through the library. But I can tell you, you will not walk away without being impacted. It's impossible. And it's a Jedi mind trick because we're telling you you're in a library and we're giving you a book, which is not a book, it's a person.

And then we're telling you now you're a reader and it's not really a reading, it's a conversation. So it's all a bluff and an illusion of the mind, but you surrender to it. Two minutes in, you're surrendered. You're Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're already on your journey to become a Jedi. And I can tell you, I've read many, many books. The more you read, the more empowering it is.

And it really strengthens your ability to understand other people, which empowers you to engage and activate and relate. It's a skill we all need to practice. I recommend reading as many human beings as you can. Challenge accepted. I can't speak for Amy. I'm certainly thinking about it myself. I've got a question for you. One of the things that I love about the Human Library is that it has been running for the duration of the 21st century. And the 21st century has been a very interesting time. A lot of big global events have happened. It's been pretty tumultuous in many respects. Have you noticed global events affecting the books

that people are taking out or the way that readers are choosing topics? And more specifically, have you noticed global events that are happening right now affecting people's choice of books too? Yes. Well, we try to be reflective of the conversations that are important to the time we live in. After the heinous murder of George Floyd, there was a big push, especially in the U.S., to have more conversations about social justice, racism, and so as such, events will impact what many readers are trying to, conversations they're trying to engage in.

And then on their way there, they may catch one of those, should we call them global additions, which are mental health, which are gender, which are, you know, ethnic background, religions. which are gender, which are ethnic background, religions. There's like five or six global common denominators where it doesn't really matter if you're in Tunisia or if you're in Somalia or if you're in Copenhagen or if you're in Amsterdam, these topics will always be relevant because they have such a big taboo

or such a stigma attached to them. And that's just global. And then we have local issues. Because they have such a big taboo or such a stigma attached to them. And that's just global. And then we have local issues. So groups that are stigmatized in the geographical area where they are. So in Italy, immigration, refugees, all of this are topics that need to be represented because every community down there is affected by what's going on across the Middle East. But if you go up to Sweden, it'll be other issues. It'll be gang violence and radicalization and the increasing racism that's happening

and people who are for or against NATO or stuff like that that you'd be talking about locally. Where do you see the human library 20 years from now? This sounds very commercial, and I'm sorry, I hope I won't be misunderstood, but we want to scale up. We want to have millions of conversations. We want to have them in Russia. We want to have them in Iran. We want to have these conversations in communities all over the world. We would want

every person, child, young person to have access to information about us, about each other, about mankind. And so I'm hoping in 20 years that we are 50 times the size we are now with local book depots and operation in communities all over the world and not limited to just a few countries as it is now. I really don't care if 50 years from now anybody knows or remembers my role. I don't give a who. What I care about is that this thing gets its legs to stand on and serves mankind for the next 100 years if needed until it's not needed anymore. Because as Amy said, why did we even reach this stage? There should be no need for such a thing. We should be having these conversations without a framework. We should be courageous enough conversations without a framework. We should be

courageous enough as human beings to do that. We're not at this stage, but until we mature, maybe this space can help us there. For that, as long as it's needed, that's great. And I'd love to see it continue way beyond my lifetime. What I love is that 23 years in, you still have so much excitement in your voice when you talk about this project. Well, hey, I could have been a used car salesman. I could have worked in the hospital where I was for years. I went to the university. I could have done my investigative journalism that I was really yearning to do in my early 20s. And if my wife had not passed suddenly, I'm not sure we'd be sitting here because I only really devoted my full-time journey to this library about 10 years

ago because I didn't want to be known as Ronnie from the Human Library. I wanted to just live an anonymous life, do some investigative journalism, documentary films. These were important things to me. And I thought the library will live its own life. I was nursing it on the side. And then my wife passed away and I couldn't get back on my feet. I couldn't get back to the work. It wasn't important. And I realized that the only thing that really beyond my children could motivate me was the library because I just love doing that work. I love connecting communities and it's a chance to change the world. And I thought there's a million journalists, that's fine. And they're needed and they do a great job, many of

them. But there's not a million people who can bring this library to the world. And so I thought, let me do that, potentially make the world a better place, and hopefully give us a place to heal and find each other. I think the planet needs it, and we need it urgently before we destroy ourselves. Be crazy not to do it. If you had a chance to change the world, would you not take that chance? I love that. Ronnie, we have had such a great time chatting with you and we do have one final question what does the word hope mean to you? it means everything

it's the fuel of your soul if you don't nurture any hope your flame will die down and I think if you take away people's hope it's the same thing as ending them. We must keep hoping for better times and for change and for ourselves. Ronnie's mission is to help us become accepted as who we are. And it's a celebration of perhaps our most fundamental human right. Understanding each other is one of the greatest challenges we

face as a species, but if we get it right and find our way back to each other, the chances of solving our other global problems will be that much higher. If you want to find out more about the Human Library, you can go to their website, humanlibrary.org, or check out our show notes for details. We're proud to have featured Ronnie as one of our 100 Humankind Heroes and would like to thank our paying subscribers for making projects like this possible. If you're interested in becoming a paid subscriber, check out futurecrunch.com. futurecrunch.com. This podcast is recorded in Australia on the lands of the Gadigal,

Wurundjeri and Woiwurrung people. There are a lot of podcasts out there. It means a lot to us that you chose this one. If you enjoyed this episode and you would like to support Hope as a Verb, please subscribe and leave a review. And if you want to reach out directly, email us at hope at futurecrunch.com.au. Thanks for listening.