House of R - A Celebration of 'Invincible'

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

We do love your mother, but she’s more like a … a pet to us. 'Invincible' is back and so are Jo and Mal, who are suiting up to soar into Amazon Prime's bloody adaptation. First, they discuss Invincible's comic book origins and role in the superhero critique era (11:00). Then, they revisit some of Season 1's most memorable highlights (43:00). Finally, they dip into the anticipated Season 2 premiere (1:30:00)! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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No way he lives up to his name. He's definitely not invincible. I guess he really is. Invincible. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today. I mean, I don't really think of her as a co-host. I think of her more as a pet.

It is Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory, how you doing? Joe, I ship portals now. Didn't I mention that? We are here today to talk about a show that we both really love Invincible, which just debuted its season two premiere on Amazon Prime. We're here to do something a little special today. We are going to talk about that episode.

We're not going to do like a traditional house of our deep dive into it because we kind of wanted to do a larger look. We've never had a chance to really dig into our Invincible fandom together. We didn't podcast about season one. So we're essentially doing kind of like season one recap-ish, hitting some highlights of season one that really stuck with us, talking about the comic book a bit. And also just sort of a larger look at this era of what if superheroes are bad, question mark, television that we're in. right now. So that is the plan for today. Plus, we will be talking about the season two premiere. So all of that is on the table today. Mallory, how excited are you? Talk invincible. I'm thrilled. I love Invincible. I'm excited to just dip our toes, our iconically costumed clad toes into this

universe with you. It's going to be a really fun thing to have a new season. Finally, everyone's been waiting so long for season two. Here it is at last. And just the opportunity to chat about these characters in this world that we are so fond of. Can't wait. I should say this is like, you know, when Mallory and I were talking about how to do this episode, she was like, are we going to do it like, House of Our Deep Dive? Or we're going to do it like a little bit more prestigey? And it was like a little bit more prestigey, like when we covered, you know, yellow jackets, say, or something like that over on prestige. Speaking of prestige, I did just want to mention that Amanda Dobbins and I are kicking off our crown coverage starting next week.

We've got a Hall of Fame episode for the Crown debut next week. We'll duo where we left off episode and then we will be off to the races with a new season of the crown over on Prestige TV. So make sure you are subscribed over there. I already shared with Mallory some of the like royalty gossip tidbits that Amanda laid on me in our very first episode. I'm so excited to be recording with Ed Royals experts. But Amanda like me is like always like, I'm not a monarchist. I just know so much about the royals. So it's going to be a fun season. There's a lot going on also over on the Ring ofverse, of course, as always, the Midnight Boys Poo-Pew!

Are also covering the first episode of Invincible in a completely different, very Midnight Boy-y kind of way. So you want to check that out. They also, of course, have their recap of Loki. Episode 5 is already up on the feed over there from them. We will be having a different reaction, I feel like it is safe to say to Loki episode 5 on Monday in our deep. deep dive because Malar, we really loved this episode of Loki, right? I quite enjoyed it. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about it. We're talking about that. So check out all of that plus button mash, plus splash page,

plus Mint Edition, everything is happening in the Ring ofverse. There's so much going on over there. We got to see all of our beloved pals of the live show this week, live and in person. We did. Malay, how can folks keep track of what our pals are doing over the Ringiverse, plus any little tidbits, photos, snippets of whatever, the live show that are going up online. How can they track all of that? Yeah, thanks for asking. Great question.

You're welcome. I would recommend, first of all, that everybody follow the pod. Follow the pods on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow House of R. We're with you twice a week right now. If this is your first, if Invincible, it's the first time

that you've checked us out on the new feed. Welcome. We're glad you're here. Come back at the top of next week and then at the back half of next week because we're podding constantly over here. and follow the Ringaverse as well. The Ringerverse is also on the social media platform of your choosing.

We are on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter. We're everywhere. You can see fun photos from the Full Family Live show that we did here in LA on Monday. It was a blast. Thank you to all of the bad babies and midnight riders and junior mince and buttmashers who came out for that. We seriously had so much fun. It was absolutely wonderful. If you have some longer thoughts, feelings.

Questions. Apple war opinions. Sign it with your pickle. Send your emails to Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. No matter what show we're covering, the inbox remains Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Now, Joanna, we have another, another little programming reminder that we wanted to mention. I'm so excited for this. Yes. Speaking of Spotify, you know, we just said, follow the pot on Spotify, right? Please. The ringers are part of the Spotify family. Correct. We have some other Spotify family news that we, as genuine and sincere, passionate book lovers, are thrilled to share.

Audio books. Audio books have come to the Spotify universe. And there's something more to share. If you are a Spotify premium subscriber and you are in the United States of America listening to this podcast right now, boy, do we have news for you. Wow. As part of your premium. subscription you're going to get, starting November 8th, 15 hours of monthly audiobook listening as part of that subscription. You got more than 200,000

audiobooks on there waiting for you. Let me tell you about one of them that I would recommend you check out if you are a premium subscriber. It's a little bestseller that you might have heard of called MCU, The Rain of Marvel Studios. It is by my genius best-selling New York Times best-selling co-host, Joanna Robinson, Dave Gonzalez, Gavin Edwards. If you have not yet enjoyed MCU, the reign of Marvel Studios, this is a great way to do it. Joe, in addition to recommending your own book,

what are you excited to listen to on Spotify audiobooks? What would you recommend our pals check out? I should say, you know, Thank you so much for promoting my book. I so appreciate you. I do want to shout out. So I read the prologue for that book. Our narrator on that book is Andrew Koshino, and he is just so good. Like, you never know what you're going to get when you get an audiobook reader, obviously. But Andrew just like really crushed the assignment. It's just like so delightful to listen to my sounds disgusting, my own book. But like he just does such a good job reading it. I get all engrossed

and I forget I wrote it. So yeah, please do check that out. I was going to say, I was going to mention a book series that I know that you are currently making your way through. And I know our listeners are going to be so excited for that. So Fourth Wing is a book that came out and just swept up the nation earlier this year. And I read it earlier this year. Mallory has just started it, or I don't know how far you are right now. My book club is reading it currently. Yeah. I've joined Fourth Wing Hive. I'm a writer. I've been rolled in Baskith War College. But on November 7th next week, Iron Flame, the second book, is coming out. And so I listened to the – I, like, did a hybrid read listen on the first one just to sort of chew through it as fast as possible.

It's one of those books that you just want to, like, tear all the way through. So, like, when your hands are busy and you can't read – like, read it with your hands. Read it with your ears. And, yeah, so I'm excited to listen to Iron Flame on Spotify audiobook, November 7th. Yeah. today you cannot listen to the books that this show is based on because they are comic books so you need to read them with your hands and your eyes but here's what we're going to talk about today right spoiler warning season one of invincible all eight episodes that's on the table

the Adam Eve special that came out between seasons that's on the table and then the I mean I don't anticipate that we're going to get like two mega spoiler or anything but like the comic book lore is going to come into play as we talk about this as an adaptation. So the comics are also the heavy, heavy, many, many issues of the comics are also stacked high on the table. And then season two, episode one, a lesson for your next life, written by Simon Racheopa and directed by Soul Choi, also on the table. Quick programming note.

Season one did like one of those special three episode premiere drops and then went weekly afterwards. Season two is going weekly from the jump. So four episodes will drop in November. And then the second half of the season will debut early next year. It is not currently in our plan to cover beyond this episode. We have a couple other properties that are coming out that will be taking up our time on House of Ar. But the wider Ring or Verse family will be checking in. Oh, yeah.

There will be coverage of Invincible over on Ring orverse, and we'll probably want to check in with it next year as well. But, like, I didn't want to set the expectation that we're going to be doing this weekly. That is not currently our plan. Let's start with the comics. Valerie Rubin, as book readers, as book lovers. Here we go. Invincible is an image comic. I love Image Comics.

Incible is an image comic that ran from January 22nd, 2003 to February 14th, 2018, 144 issues. Will not surprise you. Written by Robert Kirkman, if you know how many issues there are in the Walking Dead series, maybe the length of this series will not surprise you with art from Cory Walker and Ryan Otley. Season one of the show covers like three arcs in the original comic, Family Matters, which is Invincible 1 through 4, 8 is Enough, which is invincible 5 through 8, and Perfect

Strangers, which is invincible 9 through 13. all fun sitcom names from the 80s and 90s. And so if you want to like read with the show, like reading up through issue 13 is approximately. Some things are in different order, but approximately runs side by side with season one. So Mallory, what's your relationship with this comic? I know you've read it,

but does your relationship predate the show or did you pick it up after you saw the show, season one premiere? In tandem with season one, which I will say it was electrifying in some ways and completely like discombobulating in others. I watched the triple premiere of the show, as I think many others did

and was like immediately captivated and transported. I thought the triple premiere was incredible. And I had not previously read the comic. I was not familiar with like the deeper, wider lore. I had heard of Invincible, but I had never experienced it firsthand. And I immediately, I remember talking about this at the time, I immediately tried to order some of the compendiums. And they were instantly impossible to get.

Like they were selling out. They were back order, which was cool. It was fun to see that the show sparked this craze in readership and this mass desire for people to go pick up the comics and make their way through them. I eventually tracked down all of the necessary volumes. and had gotten started with the aid of some, you know, digital, digital access. And was making maybe through the initial volumes, like I said, in tandem with watching the show,

which I actually started to find a little bit disorienting because it's like there are, of course, as is always the case in an adaptation, differences and distinctions, but there are also so many similarities that I was like, wait. And especially I think this will sound maybe very stupid, but because it is an animated television show

and not a live action adaptation, even the way that you would sometimes, like, compartmentalize in your mind, like the visual shorthand of this happened on the show where this happened in the comics just became harder. Yeah. So then I hit pause and picked the comic back up after the first season had concluded

and continued to make my way through it. I thought the comics were incredible. I, this was all back in, you know, I have still like pandemic era, time flattening brain where like I can't really grasp how long ago anything was in my life.

But this was a wilder. ago. I mean, Invincible, the first Invincible season came out in March of 2021, which may not sound that long ago, but is, you know, it's, that's been a minute. It's been nearly three years since this show premiered. So I'm excited now, actually, with the dawn of season two here to return to the text again and like refresh myself on, on the printed page as well. Did you read all the way through it when you, once you got into it, or did you sort of stop around? I read through where, where, I read I read into what I believe will be the season two arcs through the season two arcs.

Cool. How about you? What's your relationship to the comics? I, like you, picked them up after was partially responsible. Well, no, I read them digitally, so I did not. I was not responsible for the print, the mad print scramble run sellout. But I only read up through what was covered in season one was sort of how I decided to track it. And I have not returned to it yet.

So what we're about to talk about in terms of season two today is all fresh content for me. And I loved it. I mean, I watched the show and then I read the comic and then I watched the show again. It was my order of operations. And so it was maybe less disorienting for me to do it that way. But it was fascinating as a question of adaptation, something that you and I love to discuss. this is such a fascinating case because it does hue so closely. So when they make a change, and like Kirkman, because of the clout that he has off the Walking Dead,

because he's like quite involved in the show and stuff like that, like, it's one of those cases where the author gets to make the decisions as to how things are going to roll out. And so I find the biggest change in that first chunk of story is the timing of the Omnerman Massacre. occur. It is from a TV perspective, they put it as like post credits essentially in episode one of season one. This is the hook. Gabsmacking. Because you're watching episode one and you like, you see Mark and he's like gets his powers, gets his name, gets his costume, all these beats that we're so familiar with and we're like, okay, you know, I like these voice actors, but like is this going to be any different from anything I've ever see. It's a little bloodier than what I've seen before, but like, is it really going to be any different? And then that, that wallup, narrative wallop. Absolutely astonishing. Like,

red wedding level of what the hell is going on here moment happens. In the comic, you don't get that until issue seven. Right. And so you're with Noel and Omneman for like all of those issues and you don't know necessarily, you know, that this is, this is coming. And so, like, on the one hand, I understand. where that's satisfying in his own way because you're just sort of like, they want you to sort of ease into what you think you know the story is before they pull the rug out from under you. Similar to like waiting until episode 9 to spoil the way for Game of Thrones

Chop off Ned Stark's head. You're like, this is the hero, I know who he is, like, blah, blah, right? Yeah. If you chop off Ned Stark's head at the end of episode one of Game of Thrones, you know, that's not necessarily the same. No, at the end of episode one in Game of Thrones, you push Bran out the window. Yeah.

George is like, I got something for everyone. What a television program. But episode one, from a TV hook them, especially on a three-episode premiere drop kind of way, I just found that timing brilliant and fascinating. Same. You know, because what they would have had to rely on if they had waited until, like, episode six or whatever, the comp would be. To do it, they would have to rely on word of mouth of other people who had seen it to be like, you got to watch Invincible Man.

They just did a thing, you know, and I just think it was so smart to put it at the end of episode one and get that buzz going from the start. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely brilliant, really bold. And one of the things that it unlocks for us as viewers immediately, in addition to the like obvious compulsion to continue watching you immediately. Like, I can't imagine that it was a very high percentage of viewers who were like, I'm going to go to bed now.

I'll check in on episode two tomorrow. Right, right. How could you possibly stop watching? after that. But it puts us in the same space as a number of the characters who, in different periods of time, are gaining some access

to some level of suspicion. We have seen this. We have seen with our own eyes that Omneman has brutally eviscerated the Guardians of the Globe. So we have more clarity than Cecil or Debbie and certainly than Mark, but even still,

we have the same kind of impulse to ask the questions that they will start to ask over time. Why? Was someone controlling you? What explanation might there be for what happened here? And so, like, the parceling out of reveals, the thing that is still waiting for us in the back of the season is... The why?

The why. And the extent of what powers the why and what is compromised for the characters that we have grown so attached to by then because of the why. So it was just... I think brilliant structure and pacing. I think there's something in the rewatching it as I did. Incredible. Before we watch.

Did you have like an absolute blast rewatching season one? I had the time of my life. I had a really good time. I was a bit, I think I was on our roles were reversed. Whereas you were usually cramming Doctor Who. I was cramming Invincible. So I was a little like checking the clock as I was doing it. I'll be completely honest with you.

But I had a good time. But I was really scrutinizing the little moments. And I think Nolen's Omni Man's reaction, Nolan's reaction, J.K. Simmons' performance or whatever, to The Massacre is such an interesting one that I don't think I really fully absorbed the first or maybe even the second time. I saw it.

And it really does introduce this level of complexity to this character very early on. on. And then we are sitting in that dramatic irony space where we know so much more than the characters in the show. That's one thing. You mentioned like the various investigations that are rolling along where, you know, we're patient. We know that we know when he's lying and gaslighting. We know when Damien Darkblood is on the right track. We know all this sort of stuff. But to your point, like to have that question of the why. And then to then when we watch him mentor Mark, we're anxious because we're like, this is not who we like Mark. Mark is voiced by

Stephen Yin. I've never met a Stephen Yin character. I didn't absolutely adore even when he's playing kind of villains. I just love him so much. And I'm so protective of Mark. And so to watch Nolan impart this like wisdom and guidance to Mark, you're just like, no, man. And then also just the really the tremendously fun casting fake out of getting a bunch of getting a bunch of of Walking Dead actors, known Walking Dead actors to voice the Guardians of the Globe for one episode only was just like a really fun move that they made. Immortal. Back in our life.

I mean, Immortal. Ross Markwan is, I mean, the cast is an interesting mix of like actors you know from other things and then just like hardcore true blue animation voice actors, you know what you mean? And like Ross, Markwan, who's been on the Walking Dead and has shown up in like various things. things first got to start as a viral impressionist on online. And so he has done a lot of voice record. He can say, take over for Hugo, weaving sort of seamlessly in a Marvel movie if you need a voice for the Red Skull, something like that. So that's going on there. Some other differences I just wanted to like, you know, touch upon briefly is the making Devia a much more active

participant, which I really, really value. I really love Sandra O's performance as Debbie, and I just love how much she's involved. Flushing out the new Guardians, the teen team that gets promoted to the Guardians, just like spending more time with them and giving them sort of a mission, which is like how do we work as a team, how do we come together to form some teamwork? Friend of the pod, Steen-Sealer, Jason Manzookas, obviously. Shout out, Rex Splod now and always. absolute comedic highlight of every single episode that he's in.

Genuinely, not just because obviously Madzuka's is our pal and we love him, but genuinely because it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. One of my favorite moments in season one is where we realize he is not only filled the milk cartons with the beer, but like bought the milk. It's not like they were empty, just poured out all the milk. No, I had said, I had such a strong reaction to that because like, I had, I had such a strong reaction to that because like, I. I don't care how much you wash those milk cartons, and I doubt that Rex did.

There's still going to be milk residue sloshing around in there with a beer. I hope it was a stout, you know, like a mother's milk stout, something that would make sense in that kind of, in that kind of vessel. Dare to dream. Wow. Nothing like kicking back with your coworkers and guzzling down or refreshing. Some mother's milk. Sick, creamy. I love a creamy stout.

Rexblode strikes me as more of a light beer, a light beer, though. That's a logger. Gry. And the other thing that I think is really interesting, there's, you know, this comic, as we said, was first came out in 2003. We are now 20 years later. So there are some, like, differences in terms of, like, gender swapping to, you know, ensure that there are more women in the cast overall. Some racial swapping to, you know, make it less overall white. And the most interesting version of that is that Mark, voiced by.

you know, Asian actor Stephen Young and Sandra O, Asian actor, Mark is biracial. And making Mark biracial in addition to like bi planetary, by species, however you want to put it, I think it just adds like a really interesting extra layer to this character who, like we are so used to superheroes grappling with, you know, their masked identity, their split personality, all of that sort of stuff. They're who am I really? Am I Bruce Wayne?

Am I the Cape Crusader? What am I? So to introduce when Nolan is constantly saying like you're not human, you're not human, you're not human. But also just like adding to that, the biracial lynch I think is kind of interesting. And then also William, our queer BFF, William, Andrew Rannells, like honestly, every single line delivery from Andrew Rannells as William is so funny to me. Never anything but perfect. It's just like 10 out of 10 no zero notes.

But like in the comics, that character is not out, is still figuring himself out. Like all sorts of like that. So it's more of like a coming out narrative than a closet in coming out narrative than it is just like a. And I was actually talking about someone about this recently. Like in terms of gay narratives, there was this time as we were sort of like pushing representation in pushing queer characters and stories forward, where the coming out narrative seemed to be like the main narrative available to gay characters. But what I love in the media that we consume, a lot of the media we consume nowadays is like people are just gay and there's no big deal about it. And that's just like a positive difference 20 years on, you know, from the storytelling.

So that I love. Any other adaptive changes that you feel worth putting on or talking about? Great snapshot. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis,

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Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Let's move on to the next snapshot, which is this like bigger, I'm going to use a Mallory Rubin word, and I'm going to try to give it a little Baltimore. Brew, a bigger brew. Brew. Brew. That this is a show is coming out in. Can Ips explode if you want some nanny bow.

Little brew. Watch the ewes. My friend Danielle is from around that area, and I tried to, like, hit her with my impression of your impression. And she was pretty impressed. So, you know. You've heard a lot of it at this point. It's like hard not to absorb it via asmosis. It's seeping into your bloodstream, like old bay seasoning.

Can you say gladriol again? Now I think I actually can say galadriel after much practice. It took a while to get there. It's galadriel here. All right. Is galadriel here? Superhero fatigue slash backlash slash critique. Let's talk about that conversation.

This is like a hot topic on the internet this week, especially because of, the variety article that came out this week, as well as, I don't know, a book you might have heard of, MC, The Rain of Marvel Studios, et cetera, et cetera. The impending the Marvel's release. This is a hot topic, obviously. But, like, this is a kind of a cyclical question because Invincible, as we said, came out in 2003. The Boys comic book, Garthena says the Boys came out in 2006. And those were artistic responses in the first place to sort of the heavy comic book fatigue

that was coming from the print side post the massive crash in comic book sales and comic book interests that happened in the 90s. Even Marvel gets in on the fatigue response with the Ultimate series imprint in 2002. So like Invincible comes from this comic book era of artists in conversation with what it means to be a superhero and are we tired of the standard narratives and what more can we say about superheroics that is, you know, different from all the things that we've read before. TV, on the other hand, has, like, been inside its superhero critique era for a little while now. The show that I like to think kind of kicked it off is Legion, a show that I absolutely loved on FX,

which ran from 2017, 2019, Watchman, 2019, of course, based on a much older comic from the 80s, but is doing something, you know, Lindelof and Company were doing something more contemporary with what they were engaging with there. The Boys, have you heard of it? 2019 to present. Harley Quinn, kind of in its own way. The animated Harley Quinn, 2019 to present.

Invincible, 2021 to present. Peacemaker, 2022 to present. The Boys presents, colon, diabolical, 22 to present. And then, of course, Gen V, 2023, to present. present. These are shows that I like, well, I mean, I love Harley Quinn. So like one of my all-time favorite animated shows of all-time. Watchman, I think, is a masterpiece. I like the boys a lot. I love Legion, blah, blah. I feel like you have an even, like, more voracious appetite for

this because I skipped peacemaker. You love Peacemaker. You are all in on GenVie. I haven't started GenV yet. Like, what do you want to say about what these shows do, how they feed something for you? Yeah, I love every show on that list. I mean, that core, as you noted, you know, the text for Watchmen, which is so influential on the years and decades since. Like, that core question of who watches The Watchman, it gets become foundational to how people think about superhero stories. And, like, one of the things that I love about consuming these stories is that, like, for me, as a fan of superhero stories, a fan of comics, a fan of adaptations. It doesn't, it does, I'm not opting into that instead of the other thing.

It's like all part of the brew. It's all part of the brew. Like you have to have that push pull. And when we spend time in some of these like maybe more pure of heart tales, like thinking about that question, which is, you know, one of the things that we like to talk about is like how central that is to Amazon's mission in particular, because obviously invincible the boys, Gen V, these are all Amazon shows, and they're airing, like, currently Diabolical as well, obviously.

I think, like, it's a little distinct from something like even peacemaker or so many of the characters in Harley where we think, our initial exposure to them as, like, villains. And then we come to have a broader appreciation. But that question of, like, well, what if the heroes are not who we think they are? What would people do if they actually were capable, of making their way through the world in this capacity, in this fashion.

What would people do, but also what would that do to a person? Yeah, yeah. And like Omneman, I like that Omneman is like obviously very much a, you know, Superman figure, right? The Viltrum comp, like, all of it, there are a number of different strands that you can pull for cops across comics

from Invincible Figures. but that idea of like a visitor to our planet that's part of what makes Mark so crucial and obviously everything we build up to in the finale and that question of like humanity and how much humanity has made its way inside of Nolan even if he is perhaps not ready to admit it to himself but how much of it you know Nolan tells

Mark well you're basically like Viltramid DNA is so strong that you're basically pure blood Mark's like actually this is who I am. This is where I grew up These are my people, right? And so, like, Gen V is a really interesting comp. I think the show's been great. I would really recommend that people check it out if they haven't and then listen to the wonderful Mint Editions episodes over on the Ringervverse.

You'll have a finale app coming soon, and you've got a midseason and a multi-up premiere pod waiting for you already. It's a fun comp for Invincible because, like, we're not just with, and I love the boys, we're not just with Homelander, the most powerful being, and these people who have been like in the limelight and in the center and completely misleading the public about the truth of their intention and their desire, in Gen V, we're with the youngsters, we're with the people who grew up in this era of like hero worship and are seeking something. So when we're with the kids at Godalk and you,

who were trying to figure out not just what their powers mean and what they might make them inclined to pursue in their lives, But, like, moving up the rankings, a lot of the early episodes of GenVie, I won't get into, like, specific plot. Spoilers, this is just more like almost concept. They're at this superhero college and there's a ranking and everybody's trying to make their way up the ranking. And it's like not just about your powers or how well you wield them. It's about like how many Instagram followers you have. How famous are you? How marketable are you? How brandable are you, right? So like all of that is there. You have someone like Mark who's in high school. He's a kid. It's a coming of age formative story. His dad. It's not just that he grows up watching Omni, man. There's this direct tether. One of the earlier scenes in the season that I really love is, like, is Nolan's sitting Mark down? It's a flashback in their yard and telling him not the truth in the full context of who he is and what he will one day be asked to contemplate or to do,

but that these powers are going to come. And so Mark grows up without them, wondering if he'll receive those powers, if they will bloom, with the most powerful man in the universe sitting at his kitchen. table giving his mother a hug and a kiss. And like, what does that mean for you if that's what you're surrounded with every day? And like, it's just a normal thing to look outside or boot up Twitter or turn on the news and see some sort of superhero conflict out of the streets, but also in your living room. So it's invincible, even though Omneman, I think, has done

the most horrific thing of any of these characters. It's invincible as not like every single. single character is part of vaught and is like some foul, corrupt, hideous soldier boy-esque, like waiting to peel the layers of the onion back? There are plenty of characters and Invincible who actually want to figure out how to do good. But the most direct presence on our protagonist, is that in the most impactful way possible? And it's trying to tell our protagonist, not that he is capable of that, but that he is meant to channel that, that he is meant to unleash that on people around him, people who aren't worth his time or consideration. And that's just an incredible thing to ask our characters, but also the viewers to consider.

Like, what choice should he make? And so, like, we'll get to season two and the realization that across the multiverse, almost every other mark made a different choice than our mark. Like, that's a really harrowing thing to have to confront. And the cop here, I mean, so there's like a couple really good, really interesting, chewy, core ideas that are at play here. One is this like one that we talked about almost every week on our loss rewatch, this is the idea of like your God is your dad and your dad is a bad dad and God is a bad dad and all of that sort of stuff. Like all of that is like, you know, Freudian to its core and foundational to a lot of like modern genre storytelling.

But also this idea, this larger idea, it's very. gendered and you have these like male creators Kirkman um i've talked to Eric Crickie about this in terms of the boys I talked to Noah Holly about this in terms of Legion where they're like very mindful of this story that they're telling about um power and how power is passed down or exploited and all this sort of stuff like that is a very like gendered conversation that they're actually actively trying to have so I did this before you and I had our glorious, you know, partnership, I worked for an outlet called Vanity Fair, and I did this piece on, like, sort of these superhero critique shows.

And Noah Hawley, who created Legion, said something to me that I've been thinking about, like, ever since, right? So he says, he's talking about the superhero films. He says, I've seen all the films. I enjoy them. Most of it is probably pure entertainment. The parts that felt like I didn't need to focus on is the idea that the conflict can only be resolved through war. traditionally these stories have been consumed by people, 15 to 25, and a large number of them male, to tell a genre story about power and male power and accountability and consent.

We have this opportunity to have this conversation in a way that we can couch as entertainment, and I think that's really important. So this push-pull on Mark of like, of Nolan, of Omneman on the one hand, representing, to be clear, like the worst most toxic patriarchal value, of like other, my wife is a pet to me. Other people are inferior to us, all this sort of stuff like that. This, what we get in season one, subtly throughout the season, is this push and pull of influence between Debbie and Nolan.

And like, what is Debbie's influence on Mark when he says to her, I'm more like you than I am like him, you know what I mean? And all these ways in which she has like guided him and shaped him and how fundamental the future of our society it is that he has this positive influence, this humanity influence from his mother and how the genders of those parents are not accidental to the story that Kirkman at all are trying to tell, I think is a really interesting way to dig into all of this. And I think it's, I mean, I think it's so interesting. And I love that it is so well done in these various shows that we talked about and that we love. There are ways in which it has been done

Less well, I would say that, like, I would say that this question is something that Zach Snyder was very interested in, obviously, when he was trying to craft his, like, superhero mythology, his Superman mythology, like, what would happen if the world turns on, like, Superman's an alien, like, all this sort of stuff like that? Like, what does it happen when your gods, you feel like your gods have failed you, have turned your city into rubble in the climactic battle of Man of Steel? Like, how do you feel about all of that? I think it wasn't as well executed as one might hope in the Snyderverse for a variety of reasons. But that concept is bumping around the corners of even our most Disney-ified storytelling. Because Marvel flirts with this interrogation, obviously, in Captain America in Winter Soldier, in Black Panther, in Captain American Civil War, most directly in Falcon the Winter Soldier, the question is like, if you have a Super Soldier serum, who gets to have the super, who is the kind of person who should have the Super Soldier Serum? who gets to decide who gets to have the Super Soldier Serum? And what does having that kind of boost?

You weren't a super, you weren't born super. It was thrust upon you to butcher Shakespeare. Then like, what is that do to you? All that power. All like with no accountability. What is that do to you? That is fascinating, obviously. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that, you know, it's one of the really consistently satisfying things about revisiting Captain of America's Civil War and that I've always thought one of the most well-executed points of tension in the MCU, even though that's not my like number one favorite MCU movie overall,

to take a character like Steve Rogers and pit him against like, okay, pit him against Thunderbolt Ross, like we know who's Cyron, pit him against Charlie Stark, well, it's a tougher call. But to hear Cap say the safest hands are still our own, it's Steve Rogers.

it's Captain America. To your Super Soldier serum point, if good becomes great, it amplified all the right things inside of him because he's this very special person, but not everybody's like that. So he can say the safest hands are still our own and we can trust him.

But what happens when everybody else who's in a position to wheelpower says that too? And not everybody, Steve Rogers. And like especially, and again, I do not think this show is as well as good as it might be, but like the idea of it through the lens of like a John Walker, right? When you see the blood dripping off of Steve's shield.

Yep. One of the most profane things I've ever seen in my entire life. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, that's an interesting story that I don't think was done perfectly, but like that is such an interesting story of like the Super Soldier serum in the wrong veins can, you know, change the course of history. And I do think that like a lot of these shows that we talked about, specifically these, as you said these Amazon shows, the producing team behind them, both the boys and Invincible

and all the voice spin-offs like that, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg, who also did Preacher over at AMC. These are like, what I love about this storytelling is that Rogan and Goldberg are massive to their core comic book fans. They love comic books. They love the more gleefully bloody comic books, but they love comic books. So when they are engaging in these stories about superhero critique, they're not doing it from like a shitty sneering. You know, this is a dumb genre for kids and all the sort of stuff like that. They're like, we love comic books.

We love plain straightforward superhero stories. But also these are interesting to us. And as like, and Rogan and Goldberg as like, you know, just kind of guys, guys that they are also interested in this interrogation of like patriarchal power and all this other stuff that is. baked into these stories is very important to me. I love listening to Seth and Evan talk about their work, their efforts to, you know, have these other comics that they love, bloom and flourish at these various platforms. I just think they've done such great work with it. So I just want to give them their flowers. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners and

the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, we're going to do like a little zoom through season one. I just thought we might like want to hit some highlights. If you don't mind, I mean, I wrote down a bunch of highlights. And, you know, and sort of talk about the way in which they laid the track for the larger

conversation that they're trying to have with this whole idea. So Mark Grayson, as you said, there's so many comps to various comic book characters. I mean, the various guardians can be mapped on to various, you know, obviously mapped on to various superheroes that we know and love, et cetera. in the same way that the boys can. A lot of Justice League DNA there. A lot of that. But Mark Grayson, who has like a sort of, you know, Dick Grayson kind of name.

Like, it's, you know, there's some, like, nightwing stuff associated with him and his look and stuff like that. But I love the Steve Rogers that they give him at the very beginning where he's going to mix into a fight and get absolutely pummeled in that fight. Even before his powers kick in. What do you think of this introduction and how? how we first meet him. Yeah, I think slight difference in build and muscle tone for Mark Grayson at this point. Just a bit. One wouldn't call him like pigeon chest concave. Yeah. The powers may not have manifested yet, but the Viltramite DNA was showing in some respect, certainly. Fair enough. But the fact that

by the way, one of my favorite things about rewatching was the kid in the school who's just clearly wearing a script-o Baltimore Orioles hat. It's like an orange O on a black hat with an orange brim. It's like this is delightful. I took many photos. Just for you? The fact that Mark is a good person with good intention. Like that question of intention, that's also something we talk about a lot when we talk about.

That Steve Rogers quote and what fueled the debate around the Socovia Accords and how much can you rely on the predictability and sustainability of good intention when you're talking about superpower people. so to show us who Mark is and what he is inclined to do before he has powers. Like, is he willing to stand up for other people? Is he, and like one of the things I also love about this is it's not, and I think this, I say this is a compliment and a good thing. It's not like pure altruism. Like Mark has a crush. Mark's a teenager.

Mark is trying to like do something that will lead to the furthering of a relationship that he is seeking to cultivate and explore, but also is willing to stand there and get his ass kicked if it means helping out another person. And so we take note of that because it's just like the most relatable context of you're standing by your locker and the hallway in high school and there's a person you have a crush on and you want them to notice you. And maybe it's, maybe you're not going to win and come out on the other side, but like you're willing to give it a go. That's Mark for us before he hurls a trash bag into space at the Burger Mart dumpster. The old BM. I mean, I think that, um, I think that's a tough one for Burger Mart.

going by the old BM. It's just like really regrettable marketing. Not enough people looked at that logo before they went with it, is what I have to say about that. And what is so brilliant about season one, episode one is that like even before we get to the massacre at the end that we talked about that made it so hooky, the fact that he inside that episode, you get Mark getting the shit kicked out of him in the hallway by bully standing up for Amber, maybe trying to impress Amber, whatever.

And then you also get the very chilling make-me moment to his mom within the same episode. And it doesn't, it's after he gets his powers, obviously, but it's, and Debbie's reaction that is incredible. Incredible.

But like the fact that both of those people exist inside of Mark, which just sets us up beautiful for this tension of like, I mean, I don't think there's any like real question of him going with Omnuman at the end of the season. But the make me moment does give us at least a few seeds of doubt and makes us understand why in a different multiverse, most of them apparently. Mark would go with his dad. Right. If you're the most powerful person on the planet, what do you do the planet? If you're the most powerful person or the second most powerful person in your household,

how do you treat the people who have raised you and cared for you and dodo on you? I think that the way that he instantly is made to feel like a steaming pile of shit rightly by his mom and shows culpability in real time as like such a winning thing and something that warms us so fully to him. It's like, yeah, right away, he got a little taste of being a super-fueled, superpowered asshole. His mom told him to chill and he was like, you're right. I'm sorry, I won't do it again. And even if we think about the visual settings and the physical settings for where they're interacting, like, they're on their back stoop.

You know, they're sitting in their yard. There are these, like, domestic settings that just, like, anchor mark in his humanity for a conversation like that in a really important way. And I think it's interesting that, like, to contemplate that, like, perhaps in another multiverse, Debbie decided to, like, not make that a teachable moment or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, if Debbie doesn't curb that right away, then, like, how to that kind of or because she's like, well, yeah, exactly.

Then like, you know, who's to say? So I love that. And again, a lot of this comes down to Stephen Ian's voice performance in this show, which is so phenomenal. I was just thinking about years and years and years and years, a million gajillion years ago when Glenn was still in our life in The Walking Dead. And I was like, my heart completely belonged to Stephen Yin. It still does. I interviewed him and he talked about, like, how he really wanted to adapt the comic book Chew into an animated series that he would, like, voice he was actually working on that. I'm still goddamn waiting because, like, I love that comic.

It's a great comic. If you've never read it, it's about a, someone who can, like, a detective who can eat food to figure out what happened at the crime scene. And, like, some of the food is disgusting. And it's just like, it's just like a strange concept, but would make, like, a really fun animated series. and I am baffled why that has not happened yet. But, yeah, whether he's voicing the first Avatar in Avatar Last Abend or whatever, he's doing, like, Steven Yun's voice performances have always been great. And he just injects Mark with so much, like, warmth.

And, you know, even when he is, like, fucking up or whatever it is he's doing, you're just with him in every single possible way. The other thing that I think is so interested in the first episode, right away, even before we get the massacre, like, you know, Omneman Nolan is like viciously punching Mark in the chest during training, you know what I mean? And he apologizes. But he says, you have to be prepared for anything. No one's going to be pulling their punches, meaning him in the finale, for sure. But there's this conflict existed in Nolan from the start where, like the way that he reacts when he finds out Mark is getting his powers. And he says something like, maybe our lives would be better if Mark had to be.

gotten his powers at all. Like having to contemplate, having to explain who he is or what he needs Mark to do is on a level that he hasn't fully grappled with upsetting to Nolan. At first, you think it's kind of that whole generational threat thing of like, I'm the biggest man. Like, I don't need my son to have powers. But it's much more complicated than that for Nolan. And I love that that's right there in episode one. Yeah, it's a really rewarding rewatch because of the volume of foreshadowing and their conversations in the premiere in particular. And the pain, you know, Jo, what do we like to say? You know, we like to quote George R. Martin, quote, and Faulkner, conflict in the human heart. We'll amend it and say in the Viltramite heart. It's the only thing we're throwing half

Viltramite heart. Yeah. And it is important. I mean, obviously, in the finale, when Omneman is looking down at like the pulp he has turned his own son into and has to shoot off into space to escape the reality of what he has decided to pursue. Very relatable. Who among us? But like that dinner, that dinner table scene when Mark reveals that he's gotten his powers and there's no celebration, there's no joy, that conflict is so present and palpable right away. And we don't totally understand why, but we can feel something pulling on Nolan there that is that we carry with. us through the rest of the season as we build toward that conflict. And I think you're obviously right. And I agree that like with the full clarity of how the season played out, we're like reading this as I think especially given the little the baseball memory we get in the finale that like Nolan flashes back to this like unlocking of the beauty of a human life. And to have to confront that Mark getting his powers means there's no more delay.

There's no more living inside of this little bubble of bliss for another second. The mission is on again. And how even though he will move so fully into this really hideous position that we find him in in the finale of Executor, like spreading the empire at all costs, there's something pulling on him. But what's one of the things that he says to? to Mark in the finale. Like, you couldn't know the truth, not until you had powers, not until I was sure. And Mark says, sure of what?

Sure, you were a viltramite. So if I wasn't, I'd just be one more human to conquer. Like, that has to be on our minds, too. Like, yeah, Nolan didn't want Mark to get powers because he wanted to, even if he can't admit it to himself, keep just being a dad writing his travel books and his gorgeous home and their suburb for a minute longer. But also, like, what if Mark hadn't gotten his power? Would he have been just one more human to conquer?

Like, we have to actually ask ourselves that question based on what happens in the finale. So there's just so much tension and conflict there. Every home needs two pets, honestly. The pet line is, like, I think, genuinely in the running for the most savage and withering things any character has ever said in the history of TV. I do love your mother, but she's more like a pet to me. Though, of course, I mean, it's the house of ours. We have to say, like, is there. Is there any higher praise?

Yeah. Did you say anything more meaningful? If I ever said to someone, more like a pet to me, it would be like, they would know that I loved them more than anything in the world. More like the most cherished person. I don't think that's what no one was going for. No. The only other thing I was going to say about the first episode, that punch point that you made

about the chest. Yeah. I've always loved that moment later when Mark is like, I'm ready. Let's go. Let's do it. And what does he say to his dad, which had to be a hard thing. embarrassing thing, like a shameful thing. He's like, you scared me. Like, it's not just that it hurt. Like, you've never done that to me and it scared me. And that's just, again, we see so quickly

marked learn, learn how to fly, learn how to create his own leverage and move in the air. Learn how to challenge everyone from the, like, smallest street level criminal to these global threats, stopping the meteor hurtling toward the planet, going to Mars. But he's just a kid who, like, wants his dad to love him, wants to make his dad proud, wants to be like his dad, and is then on a journey quickly to confronting what wanting to be like your dad means if you're suddenly afraid that everything inside of your dad is inside of you too. So you scared me. I want to be you. You scared me. Well, then you become the person soon who scares other people. And like, how terrifying is that?

Make me. Speaking of Nolan's precious little life to pre-quote Scott Pilgrim, before he decides he has to execute the plan to take of Earth. Mallory Rubin, if you or your spouse could fly anywhere in the world very quickly, what would be your ideal, let's get this for dinner, move? You're a gold belly fan, no free ads, but you've been known to ship food from around. So like, but like let's leave the service out of it. Where would you fly around to grab? I mean, I think it would just be a nightly occurrence.

Like, there's not even one answer. I just say, like, I'm in the mood tonight for, you know, fish and chips. So, like, let's just go to a pub in London, bring it home. I think that the, you know, I know it's like cliche, but really the best pizza is in Italy. Deb. Deb. Deb. It's like, yeah.

It probably is true. And I would probably go to Italy for pizza and pasta and some wine. You know, maybe pop over to the. Riviera. Never been. Seems great. Get a... Get some champagne from the champagne district. I'm like, pick one your favorite. I'm like, you're like, I simply couldn't. As you know, we're a big DoorDash family, so I think every night would be a new adventure. Yeah. What about you?

I feel like I would want to get like the freshest sushi in the entire world and bring it home. And it would just be like on a new level, honestly. In a wriggling. Yeah, exactly. All right. Season one, episode two, the main, you know, plenty of things happen in all these episodes. We're just going to drill down on some things. The main thing that happens here is Mark does his best during an alien incursion and kind of accidentally majorly injures an old lady who later dies.

I think it's significant that, like, so Adam Eve and the teen squad show up and Marcus, he is learning the limits or expressions of his power, has one of those, like, power up moments. when he sees her in peril, right? That's like that his power is just sort of like explode. He's able to break out of like a hold that he's in out of because of like an emotional sort of, you know, someone I know or if you prefer a pretty girl is in danger. And then later, Mark learning that the woman he tried to save didn't recover and his dad very flippantly saying it's part of the job is such an interesting, like we know that Nolan came to earth with his agenda.

So it's not like his demeanor is similar to that of like homelander, which is like a corrupting, you know, necessarily like sort of corrupting arc necessarily. He was always like this. But there is this question of how that repeated exposure to loss could wear down any superpowered human or any superpowered person and lead them to believe that humans are less valuable, like almost as a way of emotional preservation. Like you have to think of them as not even pets because pets are precious to you. just like cattle because you're constantly exposed to so much loss.

It reminds me of, we didn't talk about this specifically in our 12th doctor, you know, episode, but there's just this great exchange in an episode of Doctor Who between his companion Bill in the London Thames Freeze episode where she's asking him about like how many people he has seen die, you know, and he's just sort of like, so many, I can't remember, so many. And so, like, we find out later that... And if I think about it all the time and try to hold on to that memory, then I can't help the next person.

I can't do anyone. I can't save anyone. And so there's, like, that is a coping, but that is, like, a dulling of your humanity, if that's what we want to call, your empathy, let's say, rather than humanity, because that would not apply to Nolan. But, like, you know, Nolan throughout is sort of saying shit

that you're just like, eh. But there is no matter what your intentions are. you could be the most altruistic person. And if you have to see that much loss and that much pain and that many people that you couldn't save because you couldn't grab everyone all at once later, you know, Mark tries to save like, you know, two people from a collapsing building and, or no, in the same episode, two people from a collapsing building. Anyway, so, yeah, what do you think, what do you think about that?

Yeah, you know, the question of like perspective amid immortality, it's something we talk about a lot with Dr. Hu, it's something we talk about. about a lot with like Loki and Thor. I love to mention Thor the dark world. Why not now as well? And that part of like Loki before he really goes on his journey, his arc, we love a character on an arc. You know, one of the things that he just genuinely can't understand is why Thor would be investing so fully in his relationship with a mortal, you know, with Jane Foster. And he's like, say goodbye. Right? Say goodbye. And so this is like a great through line of these texts with about characters who have such a different perspective

because of the length of their lives and the length of their experiences. And, you know, we'll build toward when we get to the discussion of the big fight in the season one finale in a few minutes, like the absolute wallop that waits for us

in this specific arena of discussion. But like, some of the other stuff that Nolan says to Mark, everyone you know and love will be gone before you even look 30. 30. Like, this is just his life. This is the way that he thinks about.

So he sees that old woman. And one of the things that I think is so harrowing in that second episode in the hospital scene is like, it's not just the callousness with which the actual death is greeted. It's that he makes no effort to comfort his son. This is Mark's first experience with anything like this. It is his first exposure to the fact that just the way he moves, the power of his actual body could do that to another person. of course, talk about something we're building toward in the finale, right, with the train sequence. And there's no effort to be like, it's okay. Yeah, my memory said Nolan doesn't even stop walking. He was focused on getting his costume. Like, he's just like, I need that back. I need that DNA.

I need that blood spattered costume, please. And Mark is holding this, like, shattered person in his arms. Like, I try. And not just I did this and I'm capable of this, but I did this trying to save somebody and how like fucked up and horrifying that is to have to confront and then he gets her to the hospital and it's like okay things will be okay and then to go in and see that empty bed and start to have to confront that even in the process of saving people like what is the collateral damage just because of who you are and what you can do no one's like your body is like a a weapon um season one episode three is really focused on this like division of like superhero versus is ordinary identity and like how how much that is possible or not.

Like I think it's so interesting when Debbie calls the guardians, the dead guardians friends and Nolan calls them co-workers. You know what I mean? Like Debbie knows their partners. Like they're definitely like friends. You know what I mean? And Nolan's like the co-workers, right? That's partially to a Swage's Guild, but partially this entire thing that he has about like

trying to separate the mistakes, even the victories you can't bring it home is what he says, like this home bubble that he has created has to be psychologically to him a separate thing entirely from this, the super heroic stuff that he does. He says later to Mark, that's the tricky part of the job balancing what you want to do with what you need to do. Remember, you're not just a superhero, Mark, you're a viltramite. We have heavy ellipsies, responsibilities that normal humans don't. And similarly, you know.

from, you know, I can't believe I've gone this long without shouting out the great Walt Goggins, but Walt Gagins as Cecil in this episode says, you want to be a superhero, right, fame, glory, get the pretty gal. And then Mark's like, I mean, that's sexist, but okay. So funny. Well, then the whole concept of personal privacy or me time, that's out the window. When the world needs you, you answer your goddamn phone. You know what I mean?

So this whole idea of just like you can't have a normal life if you're, you can't have a normal life if you're a superhero. While at the same time, Nolan is saying, these two things are different. Cecil is saying, no, you're on call all the time. There is no separation. We see later in Italy,

when Nolan is, like, happy to let Cecil handle the dragon as he's getting his agenda taking care of with Debbie. He's like, let Cecil earn his paycheck, right? So he can do that. But for the normal heroes,

like, that's not a possibility. Because, like, it's the superhero. It's a Superman conundrum. How would Superhero? Superman ever sleep through the night, have a meal, do anything. If he can hear people in peril around the world and there are people in peril around the world all the time. So how can you live with yourself if you are not 24-7 trying to save people? Where is the limit? Where is the border? Yeah, I love the co-worker. The coworker moment with Nolan I love for so many reasons.

it's such a subversion of like an audience, whether it's a reader or a viewer, an audience member's expectation of like the pursuit of found family in a story like this, like even whether it's the guardians or team team or anything else, like part of being around people and finding other people who understand you and who you are could do special things too is like building something new with them.

And so for Nolan to just do the like, Don Draper like, I don't think about you at all. got you at all. When we are so programmed as consumers of these stories to be like, well, this would actually be the most meaningful thing.

Like the people who stood beside you and fought with you and trying to protect other people with you is just like incredibly unmooring and destabilizing as a viewer or reader in a way that I love. So there are so many moments like that across the season

that just really keep us on our heels. Cecil, I think, is a great character and like another important figure who consistently forces us to ask ourselves what we even are opting into or like what we're complicit in. Like there's a part of you that thinks, okay, well, somebody should clearly be monitoring Nolan and watching Omni Man and keeping tabs and they should have been doing a better job of it before everything went to shit. But like, what does it any moment? Right. What does it any moment allowing yourself even for a second to think? And like, it's through then when we see in season two,

you know, Mark saying like, put me back out there, man. Like, I'll work for you. I'm ready. Yeah. There's a part us that's like, fuck, no, because this is just the government agency that's keeping secrets that's putting shit in the water to control their population. In the top water. The moment at the end of season one where Cecil takes Mark into the room and it's like, they're on the lights. And then we see all of these things that we realize Mark and the population of the fucking planet can't see around them all the time because of the way that the GDA is controlling them is like so horrific. So there's nobody that you can really trust. And so, So that question becomes then who can put the check in place or like how much of this needs to be Mark on his own or how can Mark find people, whether it's Eve or others, who allow him to believe in something and are not constantly having to confront the disappointments.

Because if the disappointments are inevitable and perpetual and like unceasing, then it starts to become harder at a certain point to fight to protect this thing. Like that's part of what feels scary for Mark moving forward. If everyone's constantly letting him down, how long can he be the one to say like, I'm going to, yeah, this is my planet. These are the people I love. And is there a pathway other than just Nolan making the pitch and Mark saying, okay, to succumbing to like that impulse of what being a Viltrumite might mean? And who will be the people who can help Mark fend that off and like feel the meaning and the trust around him? his mom, Amber, William, etc. That's why, not to jump ahead, I'll save it for when we get there, but one of my,

one of my favorite little moments of this first season is just when they go to upstate you, like, when Mark wants to just go to college and like, be a kid. And I think you're... That's the end of the season one finale is like, we flash to all these threats that remain. And he's like, I guess I'll finish high school. Yeah. The editing of that sequence is so good. Yeah.

So good. An addition that they made to Cecil's character beyond how he looks in the comic book is just the addition of the little USA flag pin on his lapel, which is not in the comic book. Just like an added, like who watches the watchman like our government's paranoia. Good old paranoia and deep suspicion of the government here in Invincible. Episode four, this is where we get, as you mentioned, Nolan's big, like, speech about a Viltrum that is heavily edited for Mark's benefit. This is some real, yeah, like, not even from a certain point of view, but like from the point of view that I'm willing to give you access to right now.

Yeah. Wild. And Deb, you know, like, it sort of throws him for a loop, and Debbie is talking to him and she says, sweetheart, lots of people are going to tell you how to use your powers. What's up to you to make these decisions? You need to decide what kind of hero you want to be. which is like a beautiful moment. That decision about being a hero when and where and how to do it is also underlining

that episode by Eve when she says, I don't know if being a superhero is what I want to do right now. And I love the way that she talks about superheroing is something to do rather than be. I don't want to do that right now. And she's also like her arc in this season is all about sort of defining for herself what the most heroic thing to do is. Is it to join? I mean, we know the personal reasons why she doesn't want to join the team. team. But, like, she's trying to do some, you know, and Jillian Jacobs is a great choice for those voice performance because a lot of this is, like, quite Brita, britticor. But like, you know,

just like, yeah, yeah, but just like, you know, what is the actual most impactful, heroic thing I can do with my powers? How can I be of use? Like, her shitty home life aside, like, going out and living in the, in a beautiful treehouse, which I would also like to work in. You know, and saving people. Love to get a French press brewing while I'm still in bed in my tree house. Honestly, seems great. I feel like she's making the best life decisions. But I just, I was so struck by that sentence.

I don't know if being a superhero is what I want to do right now. I just, yeah. Yes. And I think like when we see her later go and make that change and, okay, well, I can, I can combat famine. And I can, like, I can reshape. I can move molecule. I can reshape the atomic structure. I can change the world

and better people's lives in a tangible way. And it doesn't just have to be in like the theater of war in a battle in the street. It can be through good, not just trying to maintain good by thwarting bad,

which is like an interesting contrast. And it's just so jarring that nobody's... But nobody's with her. Right. Like it's a beautiful act of creation and it is a solitary pursuit because everybody else is caught up in this other thing. And that's like such a, it's such a sad,

through line at the end of the season for her arc because like she's doing something that really does feel worthy and there's no one to try to do it with her, only people to try to talk her out of it. And like that helps us again maintain that question of like why even the other people that we think are doing something right or good or building a team. To the quote you pulled out in that idea of superhero work being something you do, it's like it is for for teen team and the guardians. Like, yeah, you're on a team. Yeah, it's your found family, but it's a job, right? It's a task. You've got training. You've got a boss. You've got expectations. You have someone telling you you fucked up. You have someone telling you what you can do and when. And so, like,

is that the way to try to help the world? So, like, Eve is such an interesting character. I'm interested to hear your thoughts in a few minutes on her solo episode that we get where we learn a little bit more about the origin of her powers. Do you want to do it now? I think we just talk about this here. Like, I really, I loved that special. It's like a very, like, 11 Stranger Things kind of story for her, but I was just like. Right down to the scientist's name starting with a bee. I was like, this guy actually going to be called Brennan, no Brandyworth.

Okay, close. Great Stephen Root. Wild. But, like, I just thought that, like, oh, and hearing Lance Redick's voice is very emotional as well. Incredible sad. But, like, watching Eve, again, Eve had to stubbornly, it's the obvious. opposite of Mark, right? She does not, she's, she's raised by another, to quote, lost. She's, you know, she's got these adoptive parents, her mom sort of trying her best, her dad, and actively, like, I kind of wanted to skip through his scenes. They were so frustrating for me to watch this, like, caricature of unsupportive parenting. But, like, that she had to stubbornly hack out this superhero existence for herself. versus Mark being groomed for it, right?

And what that does to her, both Mark and Eve are really caught in this question of family. What is your true family? What does it mean? What is the influence on you? I just, yeah, I found her story very – I love that that episode exists. I love it. Me too. I hope we get more of those.

Like I know Kirkman has said that he's eager to and interested. eager to and interested in doing more of those. And it would be great to have a version of that for duplicated and for Rexpload and for Rudy and like all these other characters to understand their their origin. I think that would be like a fun recurring thing. There's a again, so much of this is like what I love about invincible is like what are we kind of trained to think about and expect as consumers of superhero stories.

And like there's a part of your brain learning more about Eve's powers. It's just like, is Eve the most powerful character in the story? based on what you can do. And then you learn about the checks. Okay, living tissue, like, off limits. Here's why. Here's how. And you see her.

But still, it's like Scarlet Witch level of stuff. Yes. Yeah. Scarlet Witch is, I think, the most powerful superhero that was in the MCU. So, yeah. Yeah. And to have like that in the special, that introduction to her, quote, quote, siblings, right, who don't have that check.

And like these horrible. like despair and horror-inducing monstrosities that they have been turned into by people seeking to wield them as weapons and so there's this aspect of Eve where you're like, okay, because Brandy Rutherl was able to like sequester her with these adoptive parents who think they're her child, who don't know the truth, and protect her.

And like it feels like an act of good, but ultimately because of what you're identifying about her father, like she has wound up outside of any kind of like support system and has to really work to like find that on her own. And then the most protective figure in her life, Brandyworth, like when she starts to wield her powers and explore them, it's just like, don't ever do this again because you won't be safe. And so so much of Eve's life and her upbringing are like people telling her in different ways and for different reasons, you're weird. We sent you to a school for weird kids. Like, don't be who you are. Don't be who you are.

And like how devastating and terrible that is. Very Elsa. Should we sing? I feel like now is not the time. Maybe for the holidays. Some other time. We'll do some let it go. But I think that like what I'm very curious about it, maybe we, you know, not just

because we want our friend to like get more work. But like if they did a Rexpload version of this, like, I would be so interested in the development of their relationship. I was almost expecting him to come in, like, towards the end of her story. Yeah, me too. This is a person that connects her to a larger superhero, like, network and universe. And she has that, like, really interesting line when she walks away from, you know, she's like, you weren't always like this.

And so Rex is a character who might have been warped by. his power, you know, like him in a micro sort of shitty, douchbaggy way, being the same sort of cautionary tale that, like, you know, we're worried about from Mark, et cetera. But how that might have started in a very sweet way of her finding someone who, like, celebrates the things that she is and can do and stuff like that and how that might have all started. But what I do love about her, despite all that messaging, is that when she, walks in on Rex and mediate in the shower. Many a Kate.

She's like, oh, that's it. Oh, well, that's it. I'm done. You know what I mean? She's not like, no one's gaslighting her into staying. She's just sort of like, oh, no, no, thank you. You know what I mean? And then she goes to see Mark and Mark is with Amber and she's like, oh, good for you,

Mark. And she's not trying to like break that up either. You know what I mean? She's just like, she has a surprisingly like solid sense of like self and moral compass and all this sort of stuff, despite the chaotic upbringing that she had. Yes, absolutely. I can't wait for the solo. The solo Rex episode one day.

We need a full hour with the guy who brought us into season two by telling the giant, you stepped on my favorite bar. That's incredible. Great delivery of that line, by the way. Let's just skip through like five and six really quickly just to say that like five, the Titan storyline, Marshall Lee is here. But I love this like exploration of the thin line. between the hero and the villain.

This is a class question. What would you do for your family? Versus a suburb. You don't know the choices we have to make as a hero. All that sort of stuff. Very good stuff. And then episode... Can I just call out the comedy of Mark saying

which one's machine hit? Yeah. It's really good. Also, the way that they like... Dapunked his voice was just like delightful. Fantastic. And then in episode six, the aforementioned college visit episode that you mentioned,

we get a foreshadowing of Mark sort of talking his dad down when William is able to appeal to the object of his affection, Rick, voiced by the great Jonathan Groff, appeal to his humanity to get him to break out of his programming. There's an animated moment that I really, that I gasped is when Debbie confronts Nolan as her, like, the scales fall from her eyes about who he is. we get a little shimmer of tears in his eyes as she's like walking up the stairs away from him. And I mean, you and I would cry over pet, but I don't think he's being honest with himself when he says that Debbie is a pet to him. Of course. He loves Debbie. All right. Episode 7, penultimate episode.

What do you want to say about this one? It's a great one. I think the whole end of the season is incredible. But there's just, I don't know, should we just go to the finale? I mean, the finale is. The finale is just, it's all set up for everything we get there. My God. What an insane episode.

The finale is one of my favorite episodes of TV ever, genuinely. I think it's unbelievable. You, dad, I still have you, dad. Like, if you listen to our verses in, I don't know, 2020, whenever it is, we covered Invincible on that. And Van, talking us all into that being like the most emotional moment in genre storytelling that year. that honestly it's a great episode of television. It's a great moment. Our friend's emotional reaction to it meant that I started crying when I rewatched it, which is not the reaction I had the first couple times that I saw it. And that's just what it means to share stories

with people that we love. And the way that that moment meant so much to him meant it made that much more, meant that much more to me. What else do you want to say about the finale? I just think the finale is extraordinary. I mean, obviously, even by the standards of a very violent, very bloody, often very gross show, it is immensely distressing, like the fight, the destruction. There are plenty of other superhero stories where confronting that destruction after the fact becomes a central part of the text.

But there's something about being in it with Mark as he is like utterly helpless to stop the damage that his literal body is like being used as a weapon and a tool to inflict on other people. I mean, obviously the subway sequence is sort of like instantly, um, historic for what it, what it represents on that front. But just when he is like dropped down into Chicago initially and the, building starts to crumble and the way that he is like, he is strong enough to hold the building up. But the part of the building, the family that he sees inside, the parent and the child that he wants to save as they are falling through the glass. And all he can do is keep that one piece of wall intact as the rest of the building crumbles around him.

And he's holding a hand and then lifts it up and the arm is like no longer attached to a body. It's just such a truly dismaying encapsulation of what he is trying to do and what he is incapable of stopping around him. But the conversation, I mean, first of all, I will say the, everything that leads up to the Omni Man and Mark confrontation that Debbie is hearing, that everybody is watching, just have to shout out for a second. We've talked about JK Simmons a lot, but when Immortal, when the immortal comes to challenge him again

before the finale Mark Omnaman fight. And Omneman says you should have stayed dead. There's just something about the delivery of that line that is like so chilling to me. And it was on my mind again watching because we open with Multiversal Mark and Omneman in season two.

In season two, facing Immortal and Mark crushing his skull in his hands and saying like, mortal your way out of that. And like again, realizing that like in other earths with slightly different things in the rhythm of his life, like Mark is capable of that. 646 Mark is a brutal, very, very quippy, very brutal. Very, very brutal.

Absolutely, absolutely brutal. So, yeah, the U-Dad I'd still have you is like the most heartbreaking thing in the world because as Nolan is like pummeling his son into the rock face and his blood, it looks like a Jackson Pollock painting all around him. And his face, it barely is the shape of a human face, like recognizable inside of it anymore. And he screams to him, why did you make me do this? Which is like the most cowardly bit of bullshit imaginable.

And weirdly because of how cowardly it is. is, how craven it is, I think it makes us, it allows us to see Nolan's humanity. It's like he just wants to blame somebody else for him doing the shitty thing. Mark repeats that messaging in the season two premiere, right? 646 Mark repeats that messaging of like, you did this by fighting us, you're making us kill all these people. Why don't you stop sort of thing. Mark's face being, so they did such a good job with, I mean, like this is just such a

fucking disgusting, gory show. We did an episode of trial by content this week about adult animation, and we talked a little bit about how animation can allow us to, I mean, like, the boys is pretty disgusting, but we get to see so much more in an animated form. Our threshold for guts and gore is so much higher in an animated form. But to see Mark's face, and it's not for the first time, swollen his obviously. his eyes swollen, his mouth swollen, just like completely disfigured.

The blood in that one side shot, just sort of like every other breath, the blood sort of just spurts slightly out of his mouth. The wheezing. The most extreme Steve Rogers, I could do this all day, sort of standing by himself, facing down Thanos and an army vibe.

Like this is Mark just like, in his last, breath trying to stand up for the human race and stand up against and do exactly what he did when we met him, which is stand up against a bully who way overpowers him. And that's, I think, also the genius of the U-dad. I'd still have U-Line. Because even in that most desperate circumstance, like the character named Invincible is an inch from death here. Yeah. And he has suffered the greatest betrayal that, like, we could possibly conceive of. Everything that he has believed to be true and lived his entire life seeking, craving, has just crumbled before him the same way that Nolan is saying everything else around him is going to crumble.

Like, he doesn't, he's not ready to take a bye. Like, he's not ready to lose his dad. He's not ready. fight him. He'll fight him to protect Earth. But he doesn't want Nolan to go. He doesn't want Nolan to be out of his life forever. Like there's just this like, this is the teen again. This is the boy inside of the superhero suit saying like the thing that I would have is my father. The thing that I would have is my family. And like, why would that not be enough? And like there's still a part of Mark that is like hoping that could be enough. Even after all of this. And then I think like the rescue shot, like not just being Cecil and the GDA, but like Debbie being there, like his mother coming to cradle him and like giving him that exact thing that no one is saying doesn't matter. Like just like the presence of the people you love around you. It's just it's devastating. I watched the finale the first time with my jaw on the floor.

And like it held up just as well on revisits. I think it's unbelievable. And I think this larger when we. then take that the microcosm of the grace and household and make it this global betrayal of we hear the newscaster saying, we're all asking the same question. How could someone who promised to keep us safe to protect us against any threat become that threat? Well, that answers. All we can do is hold each other as we pick up the pieces.

Right. And so, like, that, dad is God. Dad is bad. God is bad. Like all this sort of stuff that we talk about when we talk about shows like Law. lost, et cetera, that fundamental betrayal of, like, yes, even when your entire notion of what is up, what is down, what is right, what is wrong, the center of your universe, betrays, abandons, whatever.

We still, as human nature is still cling to those beliefs. So cling to belief in the thing that has guided us for so long. And so, yeah, you dad, I still have you. Like if Mark lets go of that and stops believing in that, then that's one step closer to being like Nolan, like to not thinking that that's enough. What a horrible thing to have to navigate. I think we did it, season one.

We already mentioned, like, Debbie's, you know, humanity conversation at the baseball game is important, but we already talked about that. So I think. I love that scene. Love. It's so good. Wonderful.

Sandra. One more is it to love baseball. What a good. Man. And I love to, Nolan's starting of like, this is just really boring and I have other shit to do. And then like see sweet little Mark's face as he's round in the bases and he can't help it. He's like, that's my guy. That's my little dude. And it matters. It's great. So season two, episode one, which we've already like dipped our toes into a few times. So, but we want to, you know, like give it its fair shake. So this opening we get, which we find out pretty short order is a multiversal.

story, but at first I was like, is this a nightmare that we're having, like, of what if I had made the other choice or something? Did The Immortal and Mark give you Snape and Harry vibes when he says so arrogant just like your father? Were you thinking of James Potter in that moment? No, I wasn't, but I now I am. I think probably not just because we have the context of the history between immortal and Omni Man in a way that we, we do. don't quite with Snape at the beginning there until we start to piece it together. But now I'll think of this forever. So thank you for that. You're welcome. Glad to give you that guess. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high and both comfort

and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers. Oh yeah. They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant. That's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility. of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. We are back in the multiverse, baby.

Just when you thought you were out, another property has pulled you back in. There's a great interview in variety between Kirkman and Adam B. Vary where Adam's like, hey, man, so you're doing the multiverse? Kirkman's like, yep, we're sure doing the multiverse. And he's like, do you get the sense

of maybe people are a little burned on the concept of the multiverse right now? And Kirkman, you know, rightly so, is like, I wrote this story over a decade ago, close to 20 years ago. So I'm just adapting my own story. Just because everyone else is copying what I did now doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to do my own story, essentially. He's not that salty about it, but it's just pretty funny. But yeah, we get six, we're in 646.

646 mark. And then what I'm going to call in Loki terms a variant of our Cs, Season 2, Big Bad, Engstrom 646, voiced by Sterling K. Brown. We find by the end of this episode, this is clearly, I mean, I think, I don't know if it's the whole season or just these four episodes of the first part. I don't know, but Engstrom is being set up as this sort of like big, looming, big, bad. And what I love about the creation of him is so often, we didn't talk about the twins in season one, but an endless source of entertainment and delight. And here they are again in season two.

Not thrilled with the salmon at the prison. No, it's not chicken pot pie night. Like chicken pop pie night rules. But salmon, no, thank you. Advocating for self-employment, et cetera, et cetera. But I love this creation of angst from here because like I said, I hadn't read it ahead in the comics, so I hadn't read this. And watching him, again, I had my expectation. subverted because we talk about this a lot when we talk about Spider-Man villains as we talk about like villains in the Tom Holland No way, like home trilogy, these villains who are like created by Iron Man and how like Spider-Man has to deal with the villains that Iron Man created or in general in comic book storytelling the villain that the hero somehow had a hand in creating.

And so did Mark have a hand in the creation of what Engstrom becomes by the end of this episode? Yes, to a certain degree. But I love when he was like, Mark did this. And the twins are like the clonus. You did this. No, it was not Mark that created you. I mean, like, those stories are always interesting when, like, the villain is somehow like a mirror of the hero or created by the hero in some way. You know, then you were fighting your own, like, you know, something that came from you.

But I just love this like, you know, perfectly pitch perfect, invincible, ironic detachment sort of like, um, no. Oh, did you watch the same thing we just watched? You unplugged yourself? What are you talking about? How did all the, how did the Instrom introduction work for you? Yeah, so, you know, I like that the, first of all, it's just always a thrill to be with Sterling K. Brown in any capacity.

So very exciting. I mean, one of the most, like, thrilling moments for Invincible fans was when the first trailer dropped for season two and we got that screen of just name after name after name, name after name after name of new, like incredibly immensely talented actors who are joining the cast and obviously like Sterling K. Brown's was a headliner. So that's just really fun. I like that, you know, as we're like, wait, dream or multiverse and as the multiverse clarity starts to, and if you know, if you're watching with the subtitles on, you see 646. So you've got like an earlier bit of clarity there.

But I like that So all of the angstroms we see Like when we go into The Room of Engstroms later And see how Anxtram Prime has been like Pulling all of the different Engstroms From all of these different dimensions Into one space

Like toward this goal of amassing All of their shared knowledge into his brain, right? Yes. One of the things we learn is that only Angstrom, we'll call him Angstrom Prime, using the Kang Prime because it's the stuff that I'm so

Kangy in so many ways. The the Angstrom Prime revealed that like he's the only one with this portal power with this ability

to access different dimensions but all of the other angstroms have knowledge. Okay so like that conversation with the Malar Twins comes later. But it if we go back then

to the beginning of the episode the first angstrom that we meet is not Angstrom Prime with portal power. It's Angstrom 646. He doesn't have the power. He's not going to be the guy with the mutilated, morphed brain at the end. That's Anxstrom Prime. But like, he was still fighting. And that's one of the things I think is really cool about. He's seeking this null energy to try to stop Omneman,

like everything else that everybody throws Omneman in any dimension in any episode. It does absolutely like nothing. A lot of real like all this for a drop of blood, Thanos energy and everybody's fights with Omneman constantly. But that Engstrom didn't need the portal power now, sure, he was saved to be a portal. So thank you. Maybe he did need it, but like, didn't need it to decide to fight, right? Is kind of the key. Like, was there.

Fundamental to his character. Yes. With that dimensions, Adam Eve, and that dimension is Rudy, like, trying to make a difference. And so that's like a really interesting thing. And then we go to like the main Engstrom plot and reveals of the episode. And this discussion, like when the recruitment of the baller twins. about how Engstrom is a pacifist and, like, is compromising something fundamental about his beliefs by seeking them out and deciding to work with them. And then you have these moments as you go where you're

like, okay, well, here are all these other maller twins and all these other demands. So how many times did you make that compromise? And how many times were you willing to make that compromise? And at what point is it not really a compromise if you're, if you're that open to it? We heard the words greater good, And I can just like hear the Steve Lament soundboard in my mind watching the program in real time. And so like it's not just that the mall that the half charred mauler is able to say at the end, like, you did this to yourself because you didn't listen. You took the helmet off. You didn't wait. You didn't understand.

You didn't believe. You didn't trust the process to use an old 76ism, sports. Sorry. I know of trust the process as a TikTokism. Okay. Beautiful. One more. Let me bring you into the TikTok fold as you kindly often bring me to the sports fold, which is just if you're watching a video and you're watching someone do a project and it looks terrible

and you're like, why am I watching this? This looks terrible. And then it comes out beautifully. People will be like, oh, trust the process. Trust the process. Trust the process. Fantastic. How many of those people on TikTok who say that are Philadelphia 76ers fans?

Oh, well, they all have to sign the comment. a registered 76ers fan so that I know and can keep track for you. I'll be paying close attention to this TikTok trend moving forward. Great. And by that I mean when you send me the TikToks, I will consume them. That is my entire TikTok experience,

curated personally by job. The cat-based TikToks that I send you, yeah. But so long before he does that, because he doesn't want this horrible thing to happen, he's saying I'm the kind of person who doesn't want violence and destruction. I don't like that this is happening around me. But like, what is the holiness of his pursuit really?

And again, it gets back to that question of intention. Like, can you trust any one person, no matter how well intentioned they are saying, the thing that I'm going to do is attempt to secure all of the knowledge in the universe. And I'm going to do it so that we have good things. I'm going to do it so that this is a better place to live. And once this is a better place to live, I'll go make everywhere else a better place to live too. But like, you're just God then. You're just trying to turn yourself into a God.

And that's not like living inside of any sort of natural order or law. So like it almost doesn't matter that he takes the helmet off. It's like this is the path he's on already because you shouldn't seek to do these things. I see it a little differently. I see it as like the potential, the just like with Mark, I feel like the seed is there. You know, and it could, it could blossom or it could not. You know what I mean? And so, like, I do think it matters that he takes the helmet off.

But, and a reason why he takes it off is, like, he's like, my principles, right? Like, it's sort of like, right. It's like, this happened to me because I was trying to do something good and prevent war and violence and death and destruction. But it's like, is your crusade as, like, holy and pure as you think it is? Let me read to your point about trying to make himself a God. This is literally what he says, right? all our problems, famine, war, climate change, cancer have been solved somewhere else. And I can be the conduit of that knowledge of Prometheus who raises the bar for everyone by sharing what works.

I'll help our world first, of course, then everywhere else. So I agree with you on that. In that, like, I don't think anyone should compare themselves. The other modern-day Prometheus who were talking about this year was fucking Oppenheimer. So, like, let's just not compare ourselves to Prometheus. I just don't think it's a good idea. Thanks for the fire Prometheus, but I just don't think that anyone should compare themselves to that. But I don't think that it means that like,

Engstrom was always going to necessarily go down that path or that every Engstrom is destined for that. Just like every Mark could go one way or another. Every Angstrom could go one way or another. That was one of the things I was going to ask you, actually, on the King comp front and the Council of King is sort of like visual corollary

of seeing all of the Engstroms. One of the things I was, when I said like Kingy in so many ways, it's not just that we have a lot of variance and like a real visual comp for like a Council of King's Stinger, for example, in Quantummania, one of the things that feels like a Kang comp, and again, this Engstrom canon predates the MCU Kang, but like Council of, but King is a comic figure dates way back.

So all of the stuff is like informing each other, right? Yes, yes. But there is like a little bit of an interesting, because you could say an interesting comp for this Engstrom is like King Prime, Kang the Conqueror. But also I think you could say is an interesting comp, He Who Remains. Then that gets into a question that we'll say for other pods of like,

theory corner stuff, right? We'll say that for other pods. Yeah. But because the other angstroms don't have this ability and this angstrom does, this question of like, can one version of you seek to like use or control every other version of you for like their particular agenda? Now with He Who Remains,

It's a position of fear. From Anxham here, it seems to be from a desire to, like, absorb knowledge in the pursuit of some gain. But that also felt very, like, kangy. Like, what can one of us do either because of or at the expense maybe of all of the others? I don't know that, yeah, of course, because he's like, I can use all of their knowledge, right? You know, it's just sort of like, not all of them looked entirely enthused by this. Yeah. Yeah.

But, um. He's not like, hey, would you like? would you like to come through my portal? We don't know what the consent conversation was, but yeah, he definitely didn't ask 646, though he saved 646's life and then to later burn him to Ash. Okay. This is not a theory show because the text exists, so I'm not trying to like theorize because people know the answer if they're listening to this.

I will just say, since I haven't read ahead, I thought the line, they're all alternate versions of me and I've gathered 10 times more in safe houses scattered across. other dimensions was of note. Something to note. I don't think every angstrom was on the tree when they burnt to ash is the point. Right. The trees are connected, right? Through the, yeah, through the portals.

So what? Through every, we think we burn. Okay, we'll see. I don't know. I mean, there's how many timelines are in the loom? Great question. It's all Bukitini to me. Okay.

So, as for my. Mark, we can expect that Mark will be heavily tangled up in these two sentences, he says, I'm not my dad, I'm not my dad, right? When he's talking to Amber, he has his exchange with everybody, he says, I shouldn't be here, I should be out there making up for all my mistakes. You didn't kill those people, Mark Omneman did, she says, but I didn't save them. You stopped her dad, saved the planet, and almost killed you, don't owe anyone anything, she says, I'm not sure.

So sure, he says. So he is cruppled with guilt, obviously, having his hands use, like, hot knife through butter through various trains, cars. His face. But also just sort of like, I'm not, what do you do when your dad is this thing and there's so much of your dad and you? And he, I don't correct me if I'm wrong, but in that confrontation at the end, He didn't find out that in every other multiverse, he made the different decision. That's a horror yet to come for him. So this is like, this is the fear hanging over him.

This is the crippling anxiety. And what I love about Mark, there's so much grotesquery in this episode. There's so much violence. There's so much horror. But there's also just this really beautiful sequence of Mark just like flying gracefully through the clouds and cutting aerobatic shapes. And it's almost like, this is the pure, clean, like, sweet version of who a mark could be if, you know, if uncorrupted, if untainted by the horrors of what has already happened to him of the shadow that his father is cast over him and stuff like that. It's just this, like, beautiful, graceful figure slicing through the air.

I mean, it's just like, I just love that that is also inside this episode, you know? I was so struck by that sequence for a few different reasons. It is like operatic and balletic and beautiful and almost like hypnotic in its beauty. And there are moments of like such tenderness like Mark can pick up an ambulance and get it to the emergency room faster and maybe save a person who wouldn't have made it in time, right? Mark can glide through the air and instead of us thinking for a minute about cutting through his father, cutting through the immortal in midair, we can think of the way that he can like move and see and hear and sense and feel and use that perch for good.

But I found it notable that we were not allowed to linger very long in that kind of like harmonious, hopeful place, like for a couple different reasons. One, the musical accompaniment is karma police. Like, I've given all I can, it's not enough. Like, that's the track. The incredible little jobs in the show that we haven't mentioned. Absolutely tremendous. The money that they spent, Radiohead is very much not cheap to put in your show.

And it was like worth it. It really hit. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so it's not just that we have karma police. It's that like when Mark gets down on the ground at the end, he's trepidacious. He's unsure. He's like lingering in the shadows and waiting and deciding. And more than that, there's this like, in his discussions with Cecil, thinking about what he's going to do, talking to like Eve, it's just he doesn't think this is enough.

And he's actually like, this isn't enough and like is almost ashamed. And so I think there's like the guilt that you're identifying, but also the doubt that is crippling him, like the doubt. like the doubt of what he is capable of and almost like he is like a, on the one hand he's pitching Cecil at the end like banging that table trying to convince himself and other people that he's not his dad

but he's afraid that he is or that he could become him and so he like almost doesn't on the one hand he wants to be on the front lines saving the world doing more because he wants to try to like repent for things that his father did and on the other hand there's this aspect of him like almost being nervous about putting himself in situations

where he could hurt people again. Because he doesn't trust himself. Yeah, that's just such an incredibly rich tension for the premiere and for the season. So there's like a lot of, I mean, this is this big question of when, you know, the Omneman of it all. That was the other really smart thing I thought about opening with the multiversal reveal is just like we get to see Omneman without having to like fast forward to a confrontation between hour and a reckoning between hour mark and our Omneman. So I thought that was really smart. because I didn't watch any of the trailers because I don't know

I just kind of wanted to like dive in but like I wasn't even sure that J.K. Sims was going to be in this season. You know what I mean? I was like maybe they'll take a season he'll be off planet for a season and then like come back in season three or something like that. Again, I'm not right ahead so I don't know what's coming. Just a couple other things to shout out before we go.

Debbie and Olga and the curious business card is a nice little tease of like what's to come with that. Here's my question for you. You asked me earlier where would I, where would I go for my nightly meal? Could I fly around the globe in mere moments? Here's mine for you. If your partner had brutally murdered,

yes, the partner of a person who made their way into your kitchen and said, just got back from Moscow, mysterious business. Here's a plate of food I made you. Yeah. Would you eat it? With a knife glinting in the... A knife at her hand and a joke. about poisoning, just waiting for you mere moments after you finish scarf you down your food?

How good of a price did I get on the house that I said for them? Oh, man, great question. Yeah. Because if I had them a really good deal, I might be like, she's not going to murder me. Where was the housing market at that moment? Yeah. Yeah, good question. I mean, who doesn't want a fresh plate of Stroganoff, though?

I might eat the stroganoff. I might not drink the wine. Yeah. I might pretend to drink the wine. Olga. Meanwhile, the guardians are under new leadership. They're brought in under the immortal. what could go wrong.

And we get the introduction of bulletproof, a very important comic book character voiced by the great J. Farrow. And I guess the last thing I want to say, oh, Mark and Amber got into the same college. Very sweet. I'm sure it's not to be,

but it's very sweet in the moment. I love that Mark just wants to, go to college and be with his girlfriend. Genuinely love it. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I love the Amber character. The reveal is one that she's,

like, yeah, I knew you were a superhero, but you were fucking lying to me about it. So, fuck you. That was really great. So good. Really great. But last and at least, I just want to, for me, I just want to shout out the repeated Invincible bit throughout the episode. It was so funny to me. Because in season one, they, like, did that clever thing where they, like, dropped the title when someone was going to say Invincible.

Then they, like, dropped the title in. And it was just, like, a really funny thing. And this, they just have people setting up that throughout the episode. But then they just say. radically pausing before saying invincible. So funny. Really good. But we finally get the title card and all through season one, the Invincible Title Card had been

splashed and splashed and splashed with more blood. And in this, we end with the final splash of blood, changing the color palette of the Invincible logo, and then we get the first crack. We love a crack in a multiverse story. So presumably we're going to be seeing this whole thing shatter as. the, as the season goes on, but I thought that was a clever little, like, new gimmick for the card, the title card. Wonderful payoff and a wonderful episode long bit.

Who doesn't love a bit? This was a genuinely made me laugh. Great stuff. And so many different characters got to say invincible in this really dramatic fashion. That was, that was great. A couple other quick callouts from the episode. One. Donald is back.

Now, he's just here. And this is notable because Donald pretty notably. and literally died. Spine spine crushed and then he explodes the house

True. Across the street from the destinations. Yeah. And then here he is. So we'll keep our eye on that.

Fierous to say that. Speaking of just horrific things, this was something we were going to talk about in the opening multiversal stretch on 646, but we should just

go back here for a minute. Eve. Other Eve and other Mark. And the paralysis. Mark paralyzing Eve. And then saying, so, you know, I can visit after he paralyzes her. I can visit. So this is his like, like a pet.

Like I'll just keep somebody around who like, for this is just like, everybody is mine to do what with them what I will. But it's also just like so sociopathic and that it's like a kindness. I don't know. It's just like. Yeah. This was like in some ways I thought the most disturbing thing that we've seen to date. Like that another mark is capable of this. And like also what is he going to do in his visits on protesters?

Well, that's a disturbing thing to think about. There's that line from Nolan that he had been like practicing to get this technique down just so. Just like really horrifying all around. The reason I went to that very dark place just now, I'm so sorry. But like he was like looking good. Like he's, you know, he's like hitting on her. as he's fighting her. Like, it's just, you know,

if a supervillain is hitting on you and then he paralyzes you and talks about visiting you later, you know, and we're on an Amazon crime show, I'm not putting anything off the table. Deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply upsetting. Yeah. On a more heartening front, Rudy, during the fight against Giant,

paused because he was feeling fear. He had a panic attack. And he and Monster Girl have a little conversation. about fear and the way it makes you feel. And that was just like, I don't know, the robot character in season one was I felt like a quiet highlight of just like bubbling suspense and reveals

that wasn't always like as successful. Zachary Kinto's so good. The Kinto performance is incredible. And it was like one of the things that I actually really enjoyed even more on a rewatch, like kind of once you know where it's going and you can look for little clues. And so seeing, seeing Rudy,

in this new body out in the field, like not experiencing that remove and that detachment if you're just like deploying some metal husk drone to do your bidding, but you're out there. You have your new skin in the game. Like how does that impact the way that you think about the decisions that you make? I thought that was, it was like a quick moment in a largely comedic scene, but I thought that was kind of interesting. I liked that. I found, I found in season one, I found the moment when Rudy is like cradling the like deformed his formerly like deformed body and he's like we could do this together like we can save you we can put you back in the tank like it can be us I just just like heartbroken by that contrast that with Nolan 646 stomping on Rudy's little dollic body and being like you never

yeah you never should have been born or whatever yeah you should do it yeah tough brutal Nolan tough hang Not my favorite Great character though Genuinely great character What a show I can't wait I'm sadder I need if there are only

three episodes before the break But hopefully we won't have to wait too long for The second part of the season Next year Early 2024 is what we've been told So we shall see I think that does it

For our Invincible tour Through season one A little dip into Season 2 episode one A little comics chat a little house of our take on all of this. We'll be back on Monday with our Loki episode 5 deep dive. Very excited for that.

Cue up. I'll meet you in the record shop is what I'll say about that. And of course, check out the Ring Reverse for everything they've got going on over there, Pew, Pew, et cetera. this episode was produced by the great Jonathan Kerma. Kerm is the best and he is here to help us out today. Thank you so much. Thank you, Kermm. Additional production work, as always by the great Arjunironk-Kipal.

Social from Jomi Adiron. Mallory. And I hope you know now that we've been through this whole journey, then I say it. And when I say it as compliment, you're like a pet to me. No higher praise. And I'll see you Monday. Bye.