House of R - A ‘Doctor Who’ Rewatch (Part 1)

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

It’s time for a fantastic adventure throughout time and space! Join Joanna and Mal as they dive into the international phenomenon ‘Doctor Who’ and talk about the history of this iconic character (02:13). Later they discuss the first season of the revival, starring Christopher Eccleston, which debuted in 2005 (38:25). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual. dot com slash predict slash bonus offer dash terms the doctor is a legend woven throughout history when disaster comes he's there he brings the storm in his wake and he has one constant companion

he's that death here's your nexus podcast feed for all things fandom i'm joanna robinson and joining me today fresh from galafray it's mallory rubin hi mallory how are you oh joe what a joy it is

to be your companion today. That's so sweet. We're here to like fulfill my fondest wish, which is to do a Doctor Who rewatch sporadically throughout this year leading up to the 60th anniversary specials that are airing in November. And Mallory is watching for the first time. And I am, you know, a moderately intensive Doctor Who fan. And we are going to be checking in. throughout the year, every other month, to see how Mallory's rewatch is going, or first-time watch

is going, to see how my rewatch is going. I've heard from a lot of you that you are a doing rewatch or be watching for the first time. That's so exciting. So, let's get into it. Steve, take us away. That was so delay. Steve has a bunch of sound cues ready for today because I should say that Steve Alman, our great producer and our Virginia Rick Pahl, our other great producer, are Doctor Who fans as well. So we are like, the three of us, are just like brimming with excitement. And we're so happy, Mallory, that you were joining us on this journey through time and space.

I'm thrilled. I love a new soundboard, but even more, I love a new story. I love a new world. I've dabbled in Who just a touch as I shared before I decided that the Jody season was a good way in. And so I watched a few episodes of that season. But then the desire to go back from the beginning and take it all in

is just like really powerful. But then so, is the fear that it's too much and do you have time and where do you begin and how? And so this is such a thrill for me because for so long I have heard from so many people who I trust and who I admire the doctor who is not only essential and important, but cherished, adored, beloved. And obviously I know and have absorbed via osmosis just out in the out in the nerd verse over the years like how central it is to British pop culture to nerd culture and to get to experience it now firsthand, the new who generation. Couldn't be happier, sincerely. I'm so excited to be on this

journey with you. And it feels like a nice meta thing for us, Joe, because you have been seeing across space and time, just like the doctor. And I am your companion. It's all new to me. I get to ask questions, just like a companion would. But as we go, pod after pod, my comfort, my expertise will build. We'll pick up new companions. companions along the way? You know, who knows who might join us on given episodes? Will Van make an appearance? Who can say?

Will Manzukas make an appearance? Who can say? We have so many possible galactic adventures across time and space ahead of us. And I can't, I just can't wait. I'm so excited to be in the House of Tardis with you today. House of Tartis. I love it. All right, before we get into, I mean, what a tease for potential future companions.

I'm thrilled. Before we get into Who precisely, let's just do some quick programming reminders on the feed. So this is dropping on a Monday for you, but we are still, of course, deep in Mando season. So Wednesday, the Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, we'll be here with the next episode of The Mandalorian and the Mallory and I will be here on Friday with a deep dive. Also, over on the Prestige TV podcast feed, Mallory and I are covering yellow jackets. Buzz, Buzz, baby. Buzz Buzz, baby.

Ma, it's a lot that's going on. How can folks follow all of that? My first recommendation would be to follow the pod. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're at it, follow the Ringervverse across our various social feeds. The Ringerverse is everywhere. It's a great place for updates. It's a great place to see when pods drop.

It's a great place for explainer videos. It's a great place for memes. It's a great place for community. It's a great place for all of it. And if you have thoughts, if you have questions, if you have inquiries, if you have Apple musings, it's all welcome at the inbox. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. That's Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. It's still Hobbits and Dragons.

It has not been updated to Sonic screwdriver at gmail.com or bad wolf and Tartis at gmail.com. or any of it. Still Habit to Dragons. Keep the emails coming. Dr. Who is, of course, like a very, very, very, very old property. So, like, when we're talking about spoilers, it's kind of interesting. But what we're going to try to do, I'm definitely going to do on this show. But, you know, feel free to email us if you have further reaching questions or comments, is I'm just going to keep pace with where Mallory is. So Mallory has seen the homework assignment this week was the first season of the New Who, 2005. Christopher Eccleston, New Who, season.

season. Mal, did you and Adam go ahead and watch that Christmas special with David Tennant or did you wait? We waited. We're going to watch that next and then keep going. I don't think we'll take a break. I don't think we'll wait, you know, six weeks before we resume. I don't really want to stop now that we've started. So we mainlined these first 13 episodes and can't wait to continue the journey from here. I'm excited to share some of the sprinkle a couple of Adams incredibly surprising Dakes in the bot today. You're going to be shocked. I truly cannot wait.

I hope it's that the Slithine were his like favorite characters. Okay, so. Put a pin in it. Yeah. All right. So as I said, we're covering the Eccleston season, season one today in May, end of May, some date the end of May. Yeah. We're doing season two and season three of the David Tennant era, the 10th Doctor.

And then end of June, we're doing season. Season four and the specials of David Tennant, the 10th Doctor. Two David Tennant episodes, you say? Well, yes, he's returning in November. It's kind of the point of why we're doing all this. So, yes, two David Tenant episodes, end of May, end of June. And then we're into the Matt Smith era. We got an email from Atlee.

Xerang! And a few other people who were like shocked, shocked to hear we would not be doing a whole season about Matt Smith. So guess what? Now we are. End of August, we're doing season five and season six, the Matt Smith. It's not all of the Matt Smith, but we're doing two seasons of Matt Smith and then maybe a few more key episodes. Stay tuned for that. End of October.

We're rounding it out with the best of Capaldi and Whitaker and preparing for the anniversary. And then November, we're doing the three specials themselves. So it's an every other month thing. It was going to be like in every third month thing, but we decided that was just too long to wait. And we just couldn't possibly. So every other month. Will it change again? Will we be doing like 50-5 at some point?

Who can say? This is like a loose outline. It's a living document. It's psychic paper, you know? It'll show us to you what you need to see. Mallory, you're making Doctor Who references. This is really important to me. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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All right. So let's dive into a little background on Doctor Who. Steve, crushing it. With the music. All right. So I wanted to start this section just by, you know, you mentioned in case anyone has started this podcast and not watched any, because I know that happens. You guys listen without having watched the things. and that's fine. Welcome. You're always welcome. But in case you're feeling some of that intimidation that Mallory mentioned with like the eons and eons of who to catch up on, I wanted to drop this Neil Gaiman quote that gets circulated a lot about why you shouldn't worry too much about it. And I was just going to read it. But then I remembered, I was at this panel where he said it, 2011, WonderCon, San Francisco.

I was there and I was like, hey, I wonder if footage exists. And it does. So let's just hear Neil himself. Sci-fi author, Sandman, Good Omen, You know him. He's got a beautiful plummy voice. hear him tell you what you have to worry about with Doctor Who. The simplicity of the Doctor Who they've got. People are intimidated. They think that there's 47 years worth of stuff they need to know before they can enjoy anything. And what you want to say is, no. Look, there is a blue box.

It's bigger on the inside and it is on the outside. It can go anywhere in time and space, sometimes even where it's meant to go. And when it turns up, there's a blokelethe called the doctor. and there will be stuff wrong and he will do his best to sort it out and he will probably succeed because he's also. And that's it.

And that quote ends, like you can't hear it because people are laughing too much, but that quote ends with him saying, now sit down, shut up and watch Blink, which is a season three episode, which is a really good starter episode. So if you do not want to watch this whole season of a show

that you're not sure you're going to be into, the episode called Blink, which is from season three of the new Who era, is a really key standalone, really fun episode that a lot of people use as an intro to people. So, you know, you can go watch Blink or just watch the Eccleston-Steven season. Mallory, did you feel like lost

or out of your depth as you were watching the season? Because the reboot served as a sort of reintroduction, so they were sort of stopping to explain things along the way as they went. How did you feel about it? Not only did I not feel lost. I thought that the, the Eccleston season did a really great commendable job of alluding to pretty consistently the depth of history and

canon. You can tell in certain moments, hey, I bet if I went and Googled Thing X, this has appeared in 50 episodes of previous canon, but I don't feel lost absent that. Like, they give you what you need to keep moving forward. And I think, again, like in part, because of Rose's role, because of the role of the companion as an avatar for the audience, you just have like the voice on the show asking the questions that would be on your mind at a given moment in time. And so that impulse to wonder or feel a little at sea is actually absorbed into the text in a way that made it just so welcoming. I loved it. And I also, I mean, personally, and you know, I respect and acknowledge that mileage may vary on this front, I really love, despite what I said about being intimidated by

how much it seemed like there was to catch up on. Once I'm in a world, I love that feeling of, oh, my God. I'm in a vast and sprawling universe. And if I never want to leave it, I won't have to, because there's always going to be some new thing to discover. Like, that's one of the great joys that you can experience as a reader or a viewer. And to get that right away, also, I'm very lucky and spoiled because I have you. I have you. I can text on the side. And, you know, I know when exactly things are going to really pick up. And then if I tell you, I like a thing and you're like, Yeah, that's a great one. I'm like, I'm fucking crushing it.

But also, one of the fun things about it, clearly, is that there's got to be this huge, I'm sure there's a lot of consistent, unanimous, like, this is a pantheon episode, talk in the fandom. But I have to assume there's also a lot of, like, real personal preference and you develop your attachment to a given showrunner era or a companion or a doctor or a type of episodes. Do you prefer the historical episodes? Do you prefer the future episodes, et cetera? And that seems like one of the really fun things about the universe. too, that there's so much room inside of it for you to form your own specific relationship

with the universe, with the characters, and then also share that with other people who love it, too. Like, what could be better? I mean, that idea of latching onto a certain era or a certain doctor is one of my favorite things about Doctor Who, because you hear these various people being interviewed, whether it's, like, David Tennant or Matt Smith, who play the doctor talking about who their doctor is, or Neil Gaiman will talk about who his doctor is. you know, sort of this idea of like, you have my doctor, and I'll be very curious who you feel at the end of all this is your doctor. For me, it's David Tennant, because that's sort of like

where I came in, and he's a lot of people's doctor. Matt Smith is also a lot of people's doctor. Christopher Eccleston usually isn't, because he just does one season, and it's just like a little idiosyncratic and a little like the show getting on its feet and stuff like that. So like, the Eccleston season isn't very popular overall, but I think it has some real high highs. and is that, like, sort of very crucial introduction if you're coming into, back into this world. I'm going to do, like, a tiny brief history lesson on Doctor Who. We're not, as you said, as Neil Gaiman said,

you don't have to know all this, but, like, context is nice. And we at the Ring Reverse love a deep dive in context. So I would say the show was great in 1963. You could have figured that out by 60th anniversary coming up. Created by Sidney Newman and Verity Lambert is a key component to. And I just want to say, in the throat. of my Doctor Who fandom, and for the 50th anniversary, they did this, like, TV movie called an adventure in time and space, which was just about the creation of Doctor Who at the BBC and what

was going on at the time, starring one Mr. Brian Cox as Sidney Newman, who created Doctor Who. So it's a great cast, a really fun. Like, if you're into Who, it's a fun, like, history lesson about 1960s and the BBC. But, you know, what's key to remember is this is like, this is a, show for kids, and extremely low budge. And so, which you can still tell, because I feel like it wears its, like, low-budget origins with pride,

especially in these first few seasons of New Who. We got an email from a listener Carlton. That I think sort of sums up this whole, like, what you have to accept about who in order to love it. And Carlton wrote, anyone who follows a show has to accept that its awesomeness is pretty much coterminous with its utter crapness. It's hokey and sentimental and looks fake a lot of the time.

But isn't it great? But the acting is generally great. The idea is usually interesting. Putting that up against cheap sets and effects creates a real something. And the horror manages to be creepy without being gory or sorted. And sometimes the show is really terrible for long periods. I watched and loved season one of Loki, but the whole time I kept thinking, isn't this just a particularly good season of Doctor Who?

A fine British actor plays an eccentric alien time traveler, multiple versions of the main character, charismatic sidekicks. That's who, right? I kept expecting them to say, wibbly wobbly, timely. Malloruman lover of Loki season one. Do you see what Carlton is getting at here with this comparison? Oh, so picture me this weekend sitting in pajamas under a fleece blanket on my couch for many, many, many hours in a row

watching these episodes and every time the words time agent are uttered shouting, Loki! And that was one of the really fun things too. And again, not a surprising one at all. You understand what an influence this has been, but to see specific touchstones

and storytelling choices or a language that have made their way across the canon. Or, you know, you think of like the influences from other comics, etc., that make their way into this. And it's just really fun to think of the like feedback loop across, uh,

across the nerd verse. The low budget aspect was something that my pals here at the ringer verse had warned me about. I knew, I knew to brace for it going in. And so I think that was, that was probably helpful as an orienting note. You know,

yeah. Sometimes it looks silly and that's okay because they're having fun with it. I don't think there's a moment where you're watching a, Slathene unzip its forehead thinking, looks like they, uh, they think they are James Cameron, like the most innovative new camera tech.

Right. That we've ever seen. Should we actually go to space to film this? Like, that's just not the vibe at all. And that's part of the fun of it. And I think also probably part of what allows people to really feel like it's like permeating into their lives.

Like you could, you could just go and reenact some of these scenes with your pals in your living room, you know? and feel like you were in your own screen. I think that's a huge part of the way that Who is baked into the consciousness of the U.K., let's say, specifically, because so the show starts in 1963, there's this concept of regeneration, which is explained pretty succinctly by the end of this season for folks who have never watched it before. But basically, like, there, you may know if you've never seen Doctor Who that there have been different actors who've been,

played the doctor, but you may not have understood sort of like why and how. It's not like the same way that different actors have played Batman. This is just like one ongoing story with a baked in idea of when the doctor gets sort of like mortally wounded, he regenerates into a different body or she regenerates into a different body. And so that way, so you've got these doctors, starting with William Hartnell, up through Sylvester McCoy. The show is just on all the time. They were doing 20, 30, 40 episodes a year. It was short, little bite-sized, 25, 30-minute episodes,

little snack-sized episodes of Dr. Kew. And it's just on all the time. In the UK, on the BBC, in a place where there was not a lot of other television on. So, like, when we talk about the monoculture, Like the BBC, like British TV had so few channels. So everyone was watching the same thing. And all the kids were watching Doctor Who. Like all good, nerdy things, it went out of fashion for a while, right?

So in 89, it goes off the air. It's canceled. There's a 1996 TV movie with Paul McGahn, an actor who I love who plays The Eighth Doctor. and then it's not until 2005 that the show comes back. And when the show comes back, because of that hiatus and because it was so central to so many people's lives growing up, now you're in an era where people who grew up as fans of Doctor Who are making Doctor Who. It makes me think of like JJ Abrams taking on Star Wars or stuff like that. Mallory, when you think about that, when you think of fans then getting their hands on the IP,

Like what's what's the upshot? What's the downside? Like any thoughts on that? Oh, this just feels like inextricable from the moment that we're in right now across so many of the stories that we love. I remember one of the first times like that I was thinking about this really actively. I remember watching the second season of Stranger Things. I'll keep this fairly vague to avoid Stranger Things spoilers. But I remember watching it and texting Jason in real time. Like this is just hair. and the whore crooks, and you could tell that everybody who made this, like, grew up in the Harry Potter era. And you're like, some of it is active, the fandom and omages to the stories, whatever the case may be, that you grew up reading. And some of it is just like, this is in the ether when you were a kid and you were a teen and you were a young academic. And then you become somebody who makes a thing.

Did you read the recent, the Times piece on Judy Bloom and this, like, second life for Bloom adaptations because all of the people who grew up reading Bloom are now making for shows and movies. So like, yeah, I think this is just, this is a part of the cycle of consumption and then creation. And it's, it's awesome. Like, I love the idea of thinking of all of the things that are so central to your imagination and your creative impulses and your feeling of like community and belonging when you grow up, then porting themselves into the thing that you make. And the thing that you make becomes that for somebody. else and on and on and on we go when we build. And I guess there could be people out there

who think like, well, that's why everything feels the same and there are no new ideas. But to me, it's really sweet and nice. And I like feeling those, I always like feeling those fingerprints, especially inside of a universe that does feel really specific to itself and inventive. And I don't know that anything in life is truly unique, but I think that's okay. And where that that hybrid is of something that is as unique as it can be and also in touch with the things that inspired it. I love that. That's awesome. And I think when it's at its best,

you get that deep understanding of what made the story so potent in the first place. Like, if someone takes over an IP and I'm like, oh, they get it. And sometimes they take over an IP and you're like, oh, you didn't get it. That's okay. And I would say, like,

the only downside I see sometimes in that happening is like when it's not as friendly to newcomers as it might otherwise be because whoever grew up when it steeped in it, isn't thinking about newcomers. And I just, I think Russell T. Davies, who takes over as showrunner in this new who era the 2005, just knocked out of the park in terms of making it as friendly as possible to people. And he did a bunch of stuff in order to make sure that that happened.

And I do just want to, I love the sort of the TV contextual ether that this came up through because what was going on in the BBC is that like a bunch of American sci-fi imports were doing really well for them like The X-Files or Star Trek Next Generation or Stargate, like all these, all these like late 90s, early aughts shows were killing it over there and a little show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer also. And they wanted to make a Buffy the Vampire Slayer spinoff that a bunch of Buffy fans, including me, were really excited about called Ripper, never happened. But when that didn't happen, the producer on that show, Julie Gardner and Julie Gardner,

along with Russell Dee Davies is like, this is the mother and father of this. New Who era, they set their sights on Doctor Who as like a property that they could reboot and appeal to that audience that is loving these like American imports of genre content. And Julie Gardner, by the way, still still kind of crushing it on TV front. She made Night of Industry ever heard of it. His dark materials we have mixed feelings about. But like, you know, she's crushing it. And here comes Russell T. Davies, who before Doctor Who,

had done shows like queer as folk, and right before Doctor Who, this Casanova miniseries starring one David Tennant that will come into play later. But one thing he does, among many other things, is inject, like, adult sex appeal into this dusty little kids show, right? It goes from 25 or 30 minutes to an hour, goes into prime time, and all of a sudden, Dr. Hu is both childlike and sexy at the same time. Mallory Rubin, how do you feel about the horniness? the Doctor Who,

of New Who? Unsurprisingly, perhaps this was one of the great delights of my of my viewing of this season. This show is

exceedingly horny. If an orgy had broken out in any episode in any scene at any point, I would not have been surprised and I would

have welcomed it gladly. And I think that most of the characters would have welcomed it gladly. There's like this really palpable

and part of that, of course, is because so many of the characters across the episodes are voicing out loud with Rose and the Doctor this question of is this your boyfriend or you two together? Like what's going on here?

What's the vibe? So that's just again incorporated actively into the text of the story. But there's just such an active vibe from so many of the characters. You know, this will not be the last time I mentioned this today. But we are quite literally

10, 11, 12 minutes. I mean, it's 12, but if you remove, you know, the intro and stuff, 10-ish minutes into the show when Rose's mom, Jackie, basically asked the doctor if he wants to fuck. And so right away, I was like, this is my jam. This has everything I need. I think that's the first text you sent me. You're like, love Jackie. He's trying to fuck the doctor.

Jackie Tyler. Total legend. Something I found out in doing some research for this episode that I didn't know is that So the quote unquote sexiest doctor before Eccleston, then Tennett, then Smith, etc. Was Peter is widely considered to be Peter Davison. You can go Google him to decide whether or not you agree with that. But in the Peter Davidson era, because he was so sexy and people were like sort of putting this energy on the show, he was not allowed to even put his arm around the companions and the TARDIS, lest it.

start like, you know, a speculation storm of impropriety in Doctor Who. And Russell T. Davies, a queer Welshman was just like, no, we're making this a very sexy show. That is what we're going to do. I love it. And this feels, again, so true to the spirit of British TV, which is often quite horny. Yes, quite blue. Love it. Love it.

And so, like, you know, as we discuss the show, there's a couple different ways you can discuss the eras. I like to think of this as the Russell T. Davies era because he did Eccleston and Tenet. And then Moffitt did Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi. And then Chris Chimel did Jody Whitaker. And then Davies is coming back with David Tennant for these specials. But a lot of people think of them in terms of the doctors instead, the Tenet era, the Smith era. You can think of it that way.

Something I love like a phenomenon. I'm pretty sure this is true. because David, the actor David Tennant, played the 10th Doctor, everyone called him 10, right? Because it sounds like a shortening of Tenet and the 10th Doctor. And then they just started to refer to all the doctors by their numbers. Is that the origin of that? I think so. Oh, how wonderful.

I love this. Arjuna, who knows much more about Old Who than I do, can let me know if that's not the case. But I'm pretty sure. Well, what will they do in the future when Ty Tenant is cast as a doctor? Will they call him 10 or will they call him like 20 or whatever is by then? It's a good question. But if you'll hear maybe people refer to them as 9, 10, 11, 12,

it's just a way to note them. And then like popularity-wise, the peak was the end of the tenant era. That is the highest that the ratings go and they go pretty high. This is a very popular show in the UK. And then it comes to BBC America with the Smith Air and it becomes like a big.

more popular in America too in that era as well. And then there's a sharp falloff after Peter Capaldi, and we can talk about that when we get to that episode as to why that might have happened. But this is a hugely popular show, just a smash-a-hit when it comes back in 2005. The head of BBC programming who hated Doctor Who had to like grudgingly admit that this was great and renewed it like four days after the premiere because it was such a smash. So incredible. Do you have a prediction for whom my doctor will be? It's difficult to think of being more at war with myself than I will be

10 in Smith. Two of my absolute all-time faves, as you know. What will I do? How will I choose? I think it's going to be 10 for you if I had to guess. But Smith is real strong. Like, that's, the 11th doctor is strong stuff, especially the first couple seasons. Before watching this, before beginning my journey in full here, when I would think

of Doctor Who, I would picture David Tennant. Yeah. Just from what I've absorbed, you know, over the years. But for a lot of people, Smith, like, you know, it's just very generational. But, yeah, you're watching it in a different circumstance where it's not like the age you or when you met them. It's just going to come down to how you feel about, like, the companions and the episodes. And I will just say Davies and Moffitt have very different vibes, I think.

So it's just going to, like, I think it might depend just more on which of them you relate to. Interesting. Then we can talk about that a bit more when we get to the Moffat area. But I wanted to like just quickly check in on you with these like consistent elements of a Doctor Who story. Yeah. I laid out a couple in this sort of doc we're looking at. But like anything jump out to you as like feeling especially important or when it comes up. You're like, oh, I bet that's a thing or something like that.

Do you know what I mean? Well, so this was an interesting one for me because I think, and again, I guess this just speaks to how present Doctor Who is in our world and our lives. as pop culture consumers and people on the internet, people who see memes, etc. But I feel like a lot, and also because I watched, you know, some of the initial Jody episodes, a lot of these things,

I knew, you know, I knew the TARDIS. I was ready to see the jacket. The sonic screwdriver was, of course, like as soon as it came out, like, ah, you know, Leo pointing meme. Ah, that's the thing. I know the thing. They did the thing.

He used the thing. the idea of the companion in general in the world, but learning more about the objects, the magic of the objects in general, like understanding the rules of the universe, the rules of time travel, etc., has been one of the really fun things about watching a full season and hearing like,

when do you get a jiggery-pokery kind of like explanation? And when do you get an explanation that is a little more, oriented in an expansion of the lore and the mythology and when does one of those things happen initially and then lead to another over time. So that's been really fun. I was interested to see the balance of when they went to the past and when they went to the future.

That was like a cool thing to experience more fully. And especially to see like the science fiction elements in episodes set in the past and get that kind of like contradiction of futuristic. And I know that that was like, well, I'm saying I know. I have come to learn in my preliminary research and tell me if this is wrong, that that was like one of the core impulses of the initial launch, right? It was to be able to like tell science fiction stories and excite the audience and children

by teaching them more about space, time. Not to go full like watcher at the beginning of what if space time. But also to revisit these, like, key moments in history, right? Whether you're going back to a world war or you're going back to hang out with Charles Dickens, etc. I'm obviously setting examples from this season, not the original run. But to see how those things were in conversation with each other and operated in concert inside of certain episodes was really cool. I know both inside of Doctor Who and obviously more broadly in the British TV pantheon that the idea of the Christmas special is hugely central. So I'm excited to find out what that looks like.

here in this universe. And yeah, it's just great. Great to see all these iconic things. When I saw my first Dalek in this season, I was like, yeah, the little dude. I've been seeing everywhere for my entire life. Here it is. Here it is. It's Dalek.

Yeah. The Christmas or holiday specials is such an interesting, like not every show gets them, but Doctor Who has consistently gotten them. And then like some non-holiday specials as well, just like as they figure out where the seasons are going to land in the year. because the British, you know, schedule isn't, well, the American schedule is increasingly like the British schedule where there is no like fall premiere date and like, you know, spring sweeps and stuff like that.

That is a really, I'll be really interesting to track how you feel about the various holiday specials. I will just say that like one year I was in London with my family and I was really in Doctor Who and the A Christmas special was airing and I insisted we stay in, and like watch the Christmas special on the BBC because then it was a time when I then could see it before Americans could see it. I could see it like early.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, in my opinion, the worst one. And like my whole family was like, what is the show you like and why did you make a stand side? Watch it while we're in London. I was like, oh, no. So I'll talk about what we get there. Wait, so Joe, tell me a little bit more about like

when your fandom really expanded. How did you discover who, when did you first really, start to love it. Great question, Mallory. Thanks so much for asking me. What's your origin? My origin started to talk. What's your whoogen?

Before I even started working, the first website I ever worked for was called I guess it would be Horogen, technically, but I'll go with whoogen. I'll stick with whoogen. Horrigin seems like it might be a tough one. The first website I ever started writing for was Bajibra.com.

Before I started writing there, I was a fan and read it. And there was a couple of writers that I really admired, like Stephen Wilson, Dustin Rolls, who really liked Doctor Who. And Dustin especially because he's not like a huge sci-fi guy or a huge genre guy. The fact that he really liked it got me interested. And so, and then BBC used to do these like mini marathons all. BBC America used to do these like mini marathons all the time. So I think one day I just like caught probably a Christmas special or whatever that they were airing. And I was like, oh, this is interesting to me.

And so because of when it was. And it was like the end of the tenant era is when I got into it. I walked. I didn't have to walk, but I did, walk to the video store and got DVDs and watched it like one DVD at a time to catch up. And I have such fond memories of that. And so the first time I think I watched it live was the Smith era. So that's when a lot of Americans got into it. But I had had a little bit of ramp up with getting to know.

tenant era and the Eccleston season and stuff like that. So that was my thing. And I mean, like by 2011, when that Neil Gaiman panel happened at WonderCon, back when WonderCon was in San Francisco, I lined up for hours to get into that panel. I was like really into it. And I was not like, I mean, I also was a huge Neil Gaiman fan because Neil Gaiman wrote an episode, Doctor Who later on, but like a couple episodes. But yeah. And I just like, you know, I'm an Anglophile. I love a time travel show. I was a big quantum leap and Highlander fan. So like, you know, I love, I love history travel. I was a big Star Trek Next Gen fan. And then something I didn't, like, I kind of knew that Buffy was an inspiration for Russell T. Davies when he made this,

but I didn't know to the extent until I did some research for this podcast, like how much he was modeling this, these first couple seasons on a Buffy dynamic. And then once I realized that, I was like, of course. So, you know, he was like, he was like, he was like, he was like, he was like, like roadmapping this on my favorite show. And so like when I watched it, I was like, oh yeah, this is, this is it for me. I'm a big fan. Beautiful. Yeah. I never went so far. Ooh, I never went so far as to cosplay, but I think the nerdiest faniest thing I ever did was one year. My friend and I made a gingerbread Tartis. And it was like beautiful because my friend was really good at gingerbread. And it was

just like this huge, like not huge, but like a large, blue washed gingerbread tartis. And it was very cool. That's it. All right. Anything else do you want to say before we get into like sort of more specific conversation about like your audition? I mean, you liked it. You had a great time.

I was very nervous. The thing you, like, I text to you about this, but like there's that thing that happens when you show someone you love something you love and you're like, are they going to like it? And there's some hurdles to get through in this first season of Doctor Who. And so I was like, if Mal can clear these, then we're going to have a great time for the rest of the year. made me even more excited because I knew that. I knew that there were some hurdles initially. I have this very clear sense that this season is not, while I'm sure many people love it, is not considered like iconic in quite the same way that some of the tenant, et cetera,

seasons are. And so I was like, I really enjoyed this, which means I'm just going to maybe love what's to come even more, how exciting. And yeah, like, what, you know, what greater thrill is there than somebody you adore and admire saying, I really like this thing. I think you like it, do come share it with me. How lucky am I? This is great. I'm so excited. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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with a hundred-bound hour tropical tasting power, ignite your taste, start your engine, shift your flavor to high gear with new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. So to borrow a Fraser 2 from a Doctor Who, Al-Z, Geronimo. Let's get into a deeper discussion. Because we are who we are, I wanted to start by talking about Doctor Who and how it fits into the larger idea of fantasy and mythology and other stories that we love.

There's like a clear blueprint here of a classic hero's journey call to adventure story. In fact, Steve, can you play us a literal call to adventure clip from the season of Doctor Who. You could come with me. This box isn't just a London op, you know, it goes anywhere in the universe, free of charge. What do you think? You could stay here, fill your life with work and food and sleep, or you could go anywhere. Is it always as dangerous? Yeah.

Yeah, I can't. I've got to go and find my mum and someone's got to look after this stupid lunch. Okay. See you around. And that was the end of the show. No, I mean, it's not only a call to adventure, but it's a refusal of the call, which is also a classic step in the Joseph Campbell hero's journey.

Mallory, what do you think of the, like, a lot of people point out that the doctor, like, has, is such a classic wizard mentor figure. He's got the sonic screwdriver, which is essentially a wand, because it kind of does whatever he wants it to do when the story needs it to. How do you feel about that?

The sonic screwdriver chooses the doctor. It is not always clear why. But I think what is clear, Rose, is that we can expect great things from you. I mean, of course, I loved this part of it, Joe. This was like, you know, the final act of the episode named Rose, the opening episode of this season. And I was having a lot of fun up to that point. I was interested, I was intrigued.

I thought, what a quirky set of characters. This was the moment where I knew I would be in and that I would remain in because this is one of my favorite things and stories. And what I really love about it inside of this first season of Who, and I'll be curious to track how consistent this dynamic is in subsequent seasons.

Inside of the hero's journey, when you talk about something like the doctor is like a mentor or wizard, this puts the companion then in the hero's position, right? The companion is the one answering the call, but you have multiple characters and multiple roles because the doctor is also consistently answering a call, heeding a call, or refusing a call, crossing some sort of threshold,

reaching some sort of this new state of apotheosis. And there's kind of like a rinse-repeat nature to this because of the reality of this existence of a new adventure. every week or every couple weeks, a new call, a new moment of need, somebody you can help. And then this larger arc

stretching over it with this larger dynamic. And to see both rows and nine in the hero role but also in a way in the companion role. And then to see the mentor role

as well actually move between them because that's one of the great things about their relationship is that they're each able to teach the other something new and meaningful and ultimately essential

to the arc that they're on. That's just a very, a very fun thing. You're in a quintessential Cambelian experience, but it's not quite neat and tidy. It like bumps up against some of the conventions and challenges them in a way I really liked. Yeah, something that I love is that the companion is often wrong, the doctor is often wrong. There isn't like a one, you know, in some simpler shows, there are certain characters where if they say something or if they object to something, if they say this isn't what we should be doing, they're always right. And it, you know, it makes everything feel a bit more predictable.

Whereas, you know, if the doctor has an idea, as he has in the third episode of this season, the Charles Dickens episode, the doctor has an idea. Doctor is deeply wrong, you know? Like, Rose is right. The doctor's wrong. And that sets an expectation for us. Okay, like, just because he knows so much does not mean he knows everything. And that makes everything a little bit more unpredictable and exciting. Just ask Gwyneth.

You're right. Poor Gwyneth. Just standing dead under her. She's under her art. Yeah, it made me think of, it made me think of Tess in The Last of Us, that Gwyneth moment, right? Because she has to, like, blow up the gas ghost. Were you looking for yearning tendrils? Yeah.

The yearning tendrils were inside her, I think, all along. Okay. There's also this idea, this thing that I'm obsessed with that I love, that I've been thinking about it. Like, I'm wondering if it's kind of a distinctly British thing because I couldn't think of any American examples. But like this idea of a magical world operating right underneath your nose. And we see this time and time again, like, Hitchhackers Guide to the Galaxy or like, you know, you follow someone down a rabbit hole and you're in Wonderland. You go through a wardrobe, you're in Narnia.

You go onto platform 9 and 3 quarters and you're a wizardary. Like this idea of like it's been here all along. Steve, will you play this clip from the first episode? What? You're on your own? Holly, what else is there? I mean, you lot, all you do is eat chips, go to bed and watch a tell it. Well, all the time underneath you, there's a war going on.

Hey, stop from the beginning. And something I love about who especially is the way, like this era, who especially Russell Davies, like uses landmarks in London and then later Cardiff as sort of secretly alien, magical. Like you're often finding yourself like under the tent, like under a bridge, under the Thames somewhere. The way the London eye is used in the first episode to be like, I'm looking for a giant, you know, receptor sort of thing. And she's like, could it be the London eye? You know, I just love that. I love the Cardiff stuff I love because Russell Davies and Julie Gardner are two Welsh people.

And the way that they made Cardiff and Wales like a key part of one of the biggest IP in the world, like this is all they're doing. I love that. I love, go ahead, shoehorn your Welsh agenda in here. I'm, like, here for it. I'm wondering, Mal, A, can you think of any American examples of this idea of, like, there's been, you know, other than Fantastic Bees, I suppose, or why would this be a distinctly sort of British thing? That's a good question.

When we write our best-selling YA fantasy series, Joe, there will be an American example. Yeah, great. Love this, but yeah, this is a great callout, and this is, I think, one of the most, like, thrilling things that you can experience. One of the most exhilarating things you can experience as a reader or as a viewer, the idea that it was right there all along and you can actually access it if you look. Like the 9-3-quarter example or the leaky cauldron, like one of the things that's wrapped up in that is not just when can you see it, but why can't you? The clip that you picked captures that very well. You're just too busy, like, going about your daily routine and to actually like heroes then take that idea and put it back out into the world and the finale as like, I can't just be that person again, you know? And there's other, there's other stuff. I'll be returning to the spoiler. I'll be returning to that moment later in our, in our pod. But I love that. Like, the idea that the wardrobe could port you into this magical fantasy land into a new phase of your own life, into a different sense of self,

into that found family, into that adventure, it's like what the stories that we love are for all of us. It's the best thing about any of these tales. So I loved getting that here. I loved that. And like some of it is very funny,

you know, the London eye moment that you called out, like I'm just like, I've basically been standing at that exact spot, as has everyone who's ever visited London to take, you know, some sort of cheesy picture

posed in front of the eye. It's a delight. It's a delight to not just say this is a completely unrecognizable universe. And we get plenty of episodes that are set in that way too, right? If you're on satellite five or you're in a different planet or whatever the case may be, but for so much of this to be oriented in the recognizable, that context, that adjacency, that juxtaposition of the daily routine with the fantastic, fantastic. It does make it all more fantastic because for you, you feel like, all right,

If I just change one thing about how I think or what I do, maybe that could be my life too. Exactly. And like it goes back to what you're saying earlier about like the hokeyness of this season of Doctor Who or especially old who really encourages that like you can play access with your friends around your living room if you like or just like out in the world. And this idea that like at any point, you know, your Hogg Wars letter could arrive or the doctor could show up in the TARDIS and be like, let's have an adventure. You know what I mean? And it's like that specialness is within your grasp. And I think we'll talk about this in a second. But like the way that Rose is positioned like who Rose is makes that even feel even closer, I think, to viewers. And that's part of the magic of who is like it's not like we love high fantasy, right?

We love watching Game of Thrones and all that sort of stuff. Like we we love pure, pure, pure escapism. But escapism that is so deeply connected to the ordinary, there's just something really, really potent about that, especially for young minds, I think. So let's talk about doctors. You only have, you've watched a little bit of Jody, and you've watched Eccleston. So this will be an ongoing conversation?

But let's start here with nine. Steve, will you play us this clip, please? Do you know what they call me in the ancient legends of the Dalek home world, the oncoming storm? You might have removed all your emotions. But I reckon right down deep in your DNA, there's one little spark left. And that's fear.

Doesn't it just burn when you face me? I love Eccleson's doctor. And this is, he's so good. And there's, all the different doctors have their different flavors. But there always has to be a combination of like, goofy childlike wonder is one part. And then absolute menace is another part. Like you have to be scared of him. and also then having just the best, sweetest, highest adventure day of your life with him.

And Eccleston captures that beautifully. We'll get into some of those specifics of nine and why he's different from a lot of the other doctors. But I found it interesting to think about, like, the other actors who were in the mix before they cast Eccleston. Hugh Grant, Bill Knight, and Rowan Atkinson, those three all pretty fresh off of Love Actually, which came out in 2003. They're casting this 2004. So if you want to think of where those men were in their careers, that's what was going on. Alan Davies, beloved, British comedian and actor, all in the running here. When they cast Eccleston, they let him use his native accent, which is a northern accent.

There's that great line for the first episode. Lots of planets have a North. It's one of my favorite Doctor Who lines of all time. Why do you sound like you're from the North? But it makes him a working class wearing a black leather jacket. a lot of previous doctors had been like sort of dandies or professorials like that. This is like your man of the people doctor. Mal, how did you feel about Eccleson's performance?

I fucking loved it. This was actually one of the things I was interested to ask you because, again, I had an understanding heading in that this season, while many think it's enjoyable, is not held in quite the esteem that some subsequent seasons are. And I found... Eccleston so captivating as a doctor that I was wondering if those two things are distinct for people. Like the way that they think of him as a doctor and his performance as a doctor and his doctor's role in the overall canon.

And the way they think about the season are like at slightly different tiers. Is that accurate? I think a lot of people don't rewatch this season because like once you've got the information, then you move on to like as a show just gets better and better and better. This isn't like a highly rewatched or maybe you just rewatch the highs. And like I think you and I would agree that there's like four, maybe five great episodes of this season. You know what I mean? So there just feels like there's not people haven't spent as much time with him.

Only one season. That's very rare. It's a whole thing. So yeah, there's that distinction. I think it's a bad rap too. Like I think you'll see what Tennant Smith can do and it's amazing. But I love what Eccleston does. Yeah.

I found it really captivating, and I loved the, exactly what you cited, like that balance of vibe and intention. And like the intention is always pure, but it's complex. And there's this deep history and he's carrying a lot of grief and loss and regret and a heavy burden that then informs his purpose. And there's a sense of like the jubilation of the quest, but also kind of the necessity of the course. If I don't have this next thing, this next place I'm going, this next moment in time that I'm visiting or revisiting, then what will I have? Because everything else is gone. So there's this heaviness inside of the levity and the joy. And I always love that kind of blend. But also he has this real like, there's a tenderness that builds over time, but there's also an arrogance. And that can mislead him. It can mislead his companion. I love what you said earlier about like, it's not. not like he's an infallible character. He doesn't always make the right choice.

And in fact, quite often needs to be led or guided himself to a different outcome. He's learning too. He's not just teaching. He's funny. Like, he's, he's brash. He's bumping up against people and ideas and moments in society where he clearly, like, sticks out just like the TARDIS would on a street corner, but also somehow ends up blending in. And so when you hear him say to Rose later, just like, leave it there. Leave the tart.

Like, people won't, they'll stop seeing it. They'll become all the people we were just talking about, Joe, who just walk by the magical thing and don't know it's there. And it will, like, fade and blend. He has that element, too, where you're like, could he fade and blend over time? But also, then you say, no, how could that ever be? He's not meant to fade and blend. Like, he's meant to stand out and burn brightly and have people make, make jokes about his sonic screwdriver. So I was delighted by him and then really sad, even though I'm quite excited to be with Tenant. It's sad that he only had one season. It would have been fun to see him get another few episodes.

But is it correct that he wanted to stop doing this? So complicated. Why Christopher Rekyllisand left, Doctor Who is like an ongoing mystery. There's a bunch of conflicting narratives. Some put out by the BBC, some put out by Ecclinson himself. Eccleson's like, yeah, said he wasn't having a great time. The BBC put out some weird statement about him not wanting to be typecast, which apparently like he never said, but the BBC decided was the reason or something like that.

And then what I will say is that, and like he was so out on Who that when they had the 50th anniversary special and they brought David Tenet back in the Matt Smith era, the spoilers for the 50th anniversary special. But like they had like basically like a doctor reunion and Ecclson's like, no, thank you. But after that he did do one of the like, they do these like Doctor Who radio play sort of thing sometimes, audio thing. and he finally came back a couple years ago to do one of those. So, like, it's like he's finally sort of like, and he's always said, like, I'm glad I got to play the doctor, obviously. Like, he petitioned for this role. He really wanted it.

But yeah. But now he's like, I've been Maliketh the accursed. I can do anything? I mean, how do you come back? I was in Thor the Dark World. How do you come back once you've been Maliketh? You know what I mean? That's, I mean, and that's what I'm saying when now you'll understand, I mean,

I know you already understood, but now you understand another level how Dr. Hu fans fell about the dark world. Because when you've seen what Eccleston can do, and that's what they did with him, you're like, what a waste of Eccleston? My God. I love the doctor as, by the way, this is like a thing that people outside the fandom don't know or whatever, but like people call him Doctor Who. He's not Doctor Who. He's the Doctor Who. Though I love every time they make a Doctor Who, like joke is fun.

But he's the doctor. And also, by the way, if you're new to the fandom, you're never supposed to abbreviate it, D. period. That's also a no in the fandom. It's just the doctor fully spelled out. But as a hero for kids or for adults or whoever, I love him because, you know, like as you mentioned, there's that arrogance there. He calls himself clever all the time. But at the end of the day, it's supposed to be, it's like his brains and the screwdriver over like muscles and guns. And this will become even more of a thing, I think, in the tenant era. But like, we do have some conversation about like how he doesn't like guns and in this season. And I love the part, you know, there's this constant question

from the Daleks, like, starts in the episode Dalek, which is such a killer episode of Doctor Who. But there's constant question from the Daleks of like, are you any better than we are? Right. And there's that question of which is it Dr. Coward a Killer in the in the finale. And he says, coward any day. Right. Right. I love that moment. Yeah, what do you think of this, this flavor of Hero Mel? Oh, it's great. Because it's not. like he says coward any day instantly. He's agonizing over it. He has to work for that clarity. You can feel the struggle. You can feel the way that the foes that he's facing are so often like a dark mirror of his own potentially worst instincts, where he could go wrong, how he could stray and leave the path. If he didn't have somebody like Rose with him, if he didn't have the companion, the person who was going to help him hold on to that like truer part of himself. I loved how many times over the course of the season he was initially willing to. He was initially willing to, to willing is probably the wrong word thought he needed to leave rose behind let rose die close the

door before rose could get through there's this constant kind of calculus and trolley problem you feel the gravity of well it's me it's me i'm the one moving across like through the time vortex i see all of space and time i have the obligation to protect as many people as i can no matter how much it hurts me and i also have the clarity because i've lost in the time where all of my fellow times time lords that these are decisions that people sometimes have to make. But like because you have that quirk and that charm and that charisma mixed in with those heavier, often darker moments, like you can build towards something like the, you know, that you were fantastic, absolutely fantastic.

And do you know what? So was I, which is just perfect. And there's like a version of the show or a version of the performance where you're like, what an asshole? But that's not how you feel at all, right? you're like, yeah, you were. You were fantastic too, and you fucking earned saying that every minute that we were with you.

Because he's got that like goofy grin and his like sticky out of ears. And it's just like, it's very endearing. That idea of like the villains is a dark shadow of the self of who the doctor is. As I said, like Dalek, which is a couple episodes in, I think really you have to get to Dalek. I think before you're like, oh, this show has. much on its mind. And then on rewatch, I made this spreadsheet for you months ago about which episodes I thought were like good or bad or essential or whatever.

And I thought the episode is third from the last Boomtown, which is the return of one of the Slavine. Like, I thought it was inessential. And I rewatched it and I like, I had real fondness for it this last time through. Because again, it's that theme of like the doctor, he has to sit down. dinner with the enemy and talk about their similarities and their differences and to the monsters or the monsters sort of thing. And then there's a bunch of bicky stuff that I think is also very important in that episode. But this idea of the time where we should discuss, because Davies,

this is a Davies invention. Like you could be forgiven if you want, and I certainly thought this for a while, if you watched this, that this was like something that happened in an old episode of Doctor Who. And, you know, but no, this is something that Davies invented that happened sort of in between the eighth and the ninth doctor, and we will come back to it and come back to it and come back to it. So we will learn more and more as we go through this watch. But Davies did it for a very important reason when you think about a reboot. He did it to strip away a lot of continuity.

Like, we love this in a reboot. We love this in a multiverse. We love this in a whatever. He's just sort of like, let's just strip it down. We'll get rid of all the other time lords. We'll get rid of all the Galifrey. That's the planet where the doctor's from. We'll get rid of all that bag.

He called it excess baggage. And in his initial pitch from Davies wrote, we'll ignore the mythology except the good bit. So he's just like, let's just blow it all up. Literally, we're going to have something called the Time War. And everyone died. And now is just the doctor. He's the last of the Time Lords.

But emotionally, that gives the doctor this loneliness component. There's this idea that he was traveling by himself for a long time before he picked up Rose. So, like, he's been alone for a while. And then there's this quote I love from the season four finale. David Tennant says this, but he says it about, and Davies wrote it. So it's about this season we're watching. Tenet's doctor says, born in battle, full of blood and anger and revenge, remind you of someone, that's me when we first met and you made me better. So this idea that the doctor is in a real crisis moment when Rose in particular,

meets him. And as you said, he's teaching her, but she's, of course, teaching him at the same time. Time War, angry doctor, loneliness. What do you think, Mel? Oh, I love a time war. This is how you lose one.

So you lose this time for him. One of our favorite reads, Joe. I think that's a really smart decision from Davies and a savvy way to selectively hang on and cite and reference the bits that you want to, but not feel utterly bound by decades of previous storytelling. And I think that speaks to that, like, fandom balance you were, you were mentioning earlier, too, where there's, like, a love and a reverence and a respect, crucially, I think, for the thing

that people enjoy about a world, but also, like, the acknowledgement that you have to be able to, forge your own path and chart your own course, or you'll just constantly be trying to recreate something that somebody else made, and then where will you be? What will feel essential or important about it? So I love it. And to that point you made about the loss that you feel and the emotional weight that he's carrying.

I really enjoyed this throughout the season because there are moments like his conversation with Dr. Constantine, say, who is alluding to how he like used to, is saying that he used to be a father, used to be a grandfather. And when the doctor responds to that, you don't know every single thing in great specificity or detail. We talked about this a lot with The Last of Us. Like we weren't, or at least, and maybe this will change, but at least right here in that

moment, we haven't seen everything that's happened. We haven't met all the people who maybe meant something to him, who he is lost. But in just like a line or a moment, you can feel the weight of that. And like, how sad would that be? You know, you have the whole universe out in front of you. You can go anywhere. You could see anything. You can do anything.

You can visit any place in time. But, like, if you don't have people that you love to share it with, then what the fuck is the point, you know? That would actually be even lonelier than just sitting in your, in your house in one place in one moment in time. So you kind of have to be able to feel that and then mix that with his intellect and his kind of, like, detective spirit. I want to solve this.

I want to figure it out. I have, like, the enthusiasm. of a child to go learn what's happening here, but also this great pain, like this wound that is always there and can only heal, not really with time, but like thanks to other people.

I had not thought about it this way until I was reading into some of the, like, the Buffy comps that Russell Davies himself brought up, but like the way in which Eccleston is like styled to look like David Bore and his vampire character, Angel, to a certain degree, that sort of vampire burden with a soul, a mortal man sort of saved or changed by a blonde teenager.

Like it's a whole thing that I hadn't thought about until I realized it was literally on his mind. But that takes us to Rose. So let's talk about companions. Let's talk about Rose specifically. Steve, will you hit us at this clip? Got no A-levels. No job. No future.

But I tell you what I have got. Jericho Street Junior School, Under Simmons Genetics team. I've got the bonds. Again, this, like Rose, like the doctor, is, this is the later, in a later season, she's called a chav. Like, she is a working class, you know, a shop girl that we meet. And Billy Piper was a well-known, like, British teen pop star when she was cast as Rose here. So it was sort of like, I wouldn't call it stud casting at all. But it was just sort of like there was context and baggage that comes along with putting Billy Piper in this role.

And something that Davy said when he created Rose is he called her a Buffy-style female sidekick, a modern action heroine. A screaming girly companion is unacceptable now. I don't mean in terms of women's rights. Dramatically, we've got Buffy the Vampire Slayer now. So a screaming girly companion would be laughed out of the room. And he describes this show. show is a girl meets an alien, not an alien meets a girl, because we're in Rose's POV as a show kicks off, which is very different from Old Who.

Mal, tell me about your thoughts or feelings about Rose and, like, the way in which she's introduced here being, like, in her world. Instant icon. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of like, how have I lived my entire life without Rose in it to this point, you know? And a lot of this connects to what we were already talking about

with like the call to adventure and the companion, you know, Rose in particular, but I assume the companion more broadly being like our audience avatar. What would it feel like to learn that this was possible? What would it be like

to get the chance to do this? What choice would you make if you were weighing your own desire against like seeing, especially once you returned, realized your mother and your boyfriend

or missing and dead for an entire fucking year? how do you balance your own desire with the desires of the other people around you there's a little bit of that like can you ever go back to the shire element of

that we love to talk about of Rose's Ark in this season but I think what I loved most is just how she blends this awe and enthusiasm and sense of wonder that like you would have if you got to suddenly go in the TARDIS

and travel across space and time and fight spirits hiding in the gas with Charles Dickens just to use one example with this constant sense that she is capable. Like she's not lost. She might have moments where she's unsure

and is trying to learn or figure something. out or navigate. Like, she's learning as she goes. She's evolving as she goes. She's on an arc. But she's like the hero of the story. You know, she's like, she's not the one who's just along for the ride. She's guiding the whole thing.

She's the one running the carnival. So I love that part of it. And especially when you get a moment like with Adam, say, and the doctor has to explain to him, you know, how you throw yourself into time travel. It's like Paris, right? Like, you don't just go by the guidebook. You have to...

And Rose embraced that aspect of being a companion in a way that feels elemental. Like, if you couldn't do that, you couldn't be a companion. And also, if you were going to then say, look at all this stuff around me, how can I use it to my own ends to benefit me the way a character like Adam does,

you couldn't be a companion. Like, I don't think that Rose is utterly selfless. I don't know that any of the characters in the story are. I think that's part of it's part of why it works, frankly. There's like an honesty to that. But she's also not selfish. She is learning in tandem with her real thirst for something new and meaningful, how to help other people.

And that was just really cool to watch. I love the way that Davies introduced Adam, just a couple episodes in. Adam and her character he called it. the companion that couldn't with like all caps letters right and I by the way I love a doctor who moniker and we'll get a ton of them as we go on the oncoming storm is sort of like the big one for the doctor in this episode but like or bad wolf for rose if you prefer but like these um these mythic almost fairy tale like names that these characters pick up as they go along in these adventures and also like this is rose's story we start the episode's

called Rose, we are with her in the shop, we meet her families, and this is a big thing of the Davies era and then going on into the Moffat era as well as this, you meet a companion and then you get like little beta companions in the shape of their family. So Jackie Tyler and Mickey, like that these are sort of like, you know, companion plus, plus two, you know, and that idea of family and home life, again, is something that old who wasn't that concerned with. And I love that addition. It really adds a lot of texture. Again, it's that thing we like to talk about a lot. Know what are you defending? What's worth defending? What's worth saving?

You know, like the doctor loves Earth. He loves Earth probably above all other planets. That's convenient for the show because a lot of action takes place on Earth. But, you know, Eccleson, a number of times in the season will say, like, you dumb apes, like all this sort of stuff like that. And we see the worst of humanity in this show. But what is the thing we're saving? And it's someone like Jackie Tyler who is, of course, like not a genius, not a like, you know, not the best person you've ever met. A very extremely perfectly wonderfully ordinary person who just meets a time lord in a leather jacket and is like, should we fuck? Is that something that we should do right now?

Oh, yes. And then I love how it gets into like the cost of her disappearance. The toll it takes on her family on Jackie and aliens of London. And then again, boomtown the Mickey stuff, I think is really, really strong. Mickey is a person with feelings and his feelings matter. And the way in which he feels about the doctor is always going to be him. It's never going to be me. I mean, all of us watching at home are like, well, yeah.

Like it's the time learn. but like the show takes this feeling seriously, you know? Right. But also like I liked that it wasn't always an either or. Like there's a lot of room between someone like Rose and someone like Adam and Mickey routinely will come to answer Rose's call and come to their aid and help and then explain why that's happening and how complicated and torturous that is for him. But also when the doctor midway through the season invites Mickey to go. go with them, he says no. He says he can't. And then crucially says, don't tell her that. Because he doesn't want Rose to know that that's a true thing about him. Like the shame of that is

almost a bearable for him because that's one more reason that the impulse she already feels the draw toward the doctor instead of Mickey is like, is valid, right? Yeah. One of those people is going into the TARDIS and one of them isn't. The other like textual thing that Dr. Who does that I love is this idea that, like, there's so much we don't see that they will reference adventures that they had between episodes. So like much more time has passed in the TARDIS. And it feels earned like the despair that Rose feels when he leaves at the end of the season feels very earned and it feels beyond the 13 episodes that we've watched them share together. They've had all these other adventures that Rose will talk about, you know, and the show will

continually do that. And I just, again, that just adds a lot of texture. And speaking of regeneration, we are in Rose's story here, but as you know, from like, you know, the broader shape of Dr. Who, they hand off companions and doc, both companions and doctors handoff. And so the genius of the show is that you can pass the torch, not just from doctor to doctor, but from companion to companion with like overlap between the doctors and the companions stuff like that in a way that like then it's just the show that is the story. You know what I mean? Like that eventually we are, we are, this is Rosa story, and then it becomes everyone's story.

And that's a brilliant storytelling. Let's talk about Bad Wolf, a specific arc of this season. Again, Davis inspired by Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Buffy would have monsters of the week, but there would be a lurking, low, burbling threat in the background that comes to the four at the end of the season. That was the formula of the first few seasons of Buffy, the big bad, which is like something that Whedon is sort of famous for popularizing. So this idea of Bad Wolf is just there seated in the background. You get that handy little recap at the end of the season of all the times that Bad Wolf came up and you know to look for it on a rewatch. How did this work for you?

Does this feel like it gave the season cohesion? Did you feel like you needed it? How did you feel? I liked the buildup to it probably a little bit more than the payoff at the end. I do like having, and I think the season had this in a couple different ways because the Dalek, the recurring through line of the Dalek presence is also there. And of course, you get that very tantalizing moment at the end where the doctor is like, well, what about bad wolf?

And our guy, Emperor Dalek, is like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And you're like, oh, shit. I thought these two through lines of this looming larger threat were connected. So when you're seeing the scrawl on the side of the paint on the side of the TARDIS or you're hearing the helicopter call, you're seeing the signage of the corporation, et cetera, et cetera. I enjoy those little moments.

It felt just present enough that we could never forget it was they. and we knew we were building towards some sort of reveal an insight into character, plot, mythology, all of the above. But it never felt like distracting to me. It always felt pretty deftly handled and balanced throughout the season. The actual Rose is the bad wolf and has been leaving these clues to herself and to get back to the doctor, to the Tardis. and is like starlight from the boys for a couple minutes there. Was interesting.

I think like execution was fine. I like the idea of it, though. I like the intent of this. And I always love a paradox and a time travel story, as you know. So that was really fun to think about. Me too. What about you? I mean, I like the idea, especially like in the Dalek section of the final episode,

parting in the way. I like the idea that the doctor has to reckon with the fact that this is a situation that he caused himself in a previous episode of the season. We talk about this a lot with like Spider-Man and Tony Stark. Like, I don't know. I always love when these heroes have to clean up their own messes, right? But I think that, I think Rose being like this spray paint on a wall is connecting me back to him. You're like, how? Question mark.

But when she turns to the starlight or as I wrote. Wanda Maximoff in my notes, but like, you know, when she, like, when she goes full Scarlet Witch and it's just sort of like resurrecting Jack and, like, doing all this other stuff, um, I kind of always love that. Like, you know, I feel like Billy's having a lot of fun with the voice she's doing. Like, it's a whole, they gave her better hair. Like, it's a whole thing, you know? Like, turns out when you become the bad wolf, when you look into the heart of the Tartis, all of a sudden your hair is like beautifully shagged out in the 70s. It's great. Did you have a favorite line of the whole season, Mal?

Oh, boy. You know, in the mix for me is that one I already mentioned time travel is like visiting Paris. You can't just read the guidebook. You've got to throw yourself in. Eat the food. Use the wrong verbs. Get charged double. End up kissing complete strangers.

Or is that just me? I love that. That was wonderful. Because I already mentioned that, I'll go with a more earnest pick instead is my favorite line selection. This is from Father's Day, the eighth episode. The doctor sank to Rose, Rose, there's a man alive in the world who wasn't alive before. An ordinary man.

That's the most important thing in creation. The whole world's different because he's alive. I loved it because it was sweet and thought-provoking and interesting, but also like it cemented to the point you were just making about like the doctor causing and the thing that he needs to reckon with later. This episode, Father's Day, really like wrestles with that in a way that I thought was important. inside of the series, in addition to being just enjoyable and interesting inside of the episode.

So there's this kind of, like, thematic and emotional heft to a line like that, but also it does sort of cement and reinforce the stakes of the choices that they make and the things that they do and what the ripple effects can be. So I thought that line worked on a few different levels. What about you? I love Father's Day for that. I love Rules of Time Travel episode. I really liked that episode.

It's a great episode. And, like, where it's positioned in the season, I think, is a really good spot because, like, again, they're trying to like sort of slow roll out. Like, this is how the TARDIS work. This is how a sonic screwdriver works. Oh my God. He's got two hearts. What's a dolly?

Like, all this sort of stuff like that. So like, what are the rules of time travel? And listen, the rules are going to change. I'm sure. And one of the most famous lies, Dr. Hoo is wibbly wobbly, timie-wimey stuff. So like when the show decides it's just going to hand wave, it's going to hand wave. You know what I mean? But I still like a rules of time travel concept.

I think I'm going to give it to a. what is it? It's 900 years of time and space, and I've never been slapped by someone's mother. Great back. Jackie Tyler is like, honestly, one of my all-time favorite characters, and he's so good about her.

All right. Best villain of this season, like we're going to talk about Daleks, of course, and we've talked about them throughout. They're like the most iconic. They're obviously look kind of dumb, have the little like plunger and the egg beater and all that sort of stuff.

stuff, like, are pretty dumb, but, like, nonetheless effective and an important, iconic part of the whole history of Doctor Who? But, like, within the season, was there a villain that stood out to you as sort of the best or most interesting? To, I guess to get specific about it, I would pick the Dalek from the sixth episode, Dalek, who merges with Rose's DNA and begins to change. because that led to some really interesting moments where a lot of what we've already discussed where the foe is this dark mirror when the doctor is interacting with the Dalek,

you have like this kind of mounting terror in your heart as a viewer where you're wondering if the doctor is going to realize that a lot of the things he's saying and the choices he's prepared to make or the things that he would be judging another character for doing. And then you actually get to hear Rose say that to him

when he asks what the Dalek is doing. And Rose says it's the sunlight. That's all it wants. The doctor says, but it can't. Rose says it couldn't kill Van Stat and it couldn't kill me. It's changing. What about you, doctor? What the hell are you changing into?

So that was really compelling. And then, of course, just more broadly with the Daleks. Like the through line, you know, the sense that there's this deep history that you're going to be with these characters again in the various moments of time in the future. this like literalization of the concept of putting this hard shell around the soft, squishy, you know, I just,

I really liked that. And then it builds, even though that Dalek in episode six, because of the Rose aspect, is a different kind of Dalek and a different kind of foe, you still have that in your mind when you build toward the finale. And inside of that conversation with the emperor says, you know, you would destroy Daleks and humans together.

If I'm a god, the creator of all things, then what does that make you, doctor? Which is great. It's great stuff. And it's so surprising that the dollies can feel menacing, despite how dumb they look. What's scarier than a plunger, really, if we think about it? An egg beater.

I think it's, you know, it's just how unrelenting they are and how they're, and how, you know, you know, absent of personality, just the, you know, pure exterminate sort of thing. For me and this, I mean, this is my top villain, but the scariest Dalek moment for me is, like, when poor Lydia is, like, trapped in that one room in the finale, and then they come up from the outside, like, Mikhail with a grenade and lost, like, outside the window. And, and, oh, what I love about that moment is you can't hear them, you just see the lights sort of pulse to the rhythm of exterminate so you know that that's what they said, but you don't hear it,

and then they kill poor Lydia. Lydia, you were really cute, and I'm sorry that you're gone. I'm going to give it to a surprise pick for me. I'm surprising myself with this with Margaret Blaine, played by Annette Badlin, who is one of the Slithie. I cannot say Slivine. I don't know why. But really regrettable double episode where these, like, foamy-looking aliens. are just like farting all the time.

Bronzion Royce is there, but it's not enough to get you through. Though what I do love about those, I mean, we meet Harriet Jones, a character that I absolutely love. But also, Dr. Hu is constantly thinking about, like, if aliens were to invade, where would be the most effective place for them

to manipulate things? Would it be the halls of government? Would it be through reality TV programming? Would it be through the news? Like how are they coming to manipulate and shape our ideas? But the way that Margaret comes back in Boomtown, and I just, you know, and like, again, it's got that like sort of umbrage vibe of like what could be less threatening than a middle-aged woman is like how a lot of people feel. But like she's so scary in many ways and also so vulnerable in many ways. And I find her sort of endlessly fascinating.

This was my runner up pick. I'm delighted right now. In part because this was the Adam note that I was teasing earlier. I was excited to drop on you. He was interested to know, you know, how we would be structuring the pod. And I gave him just a taste of some of these superlative categories at the end. And he was like, you must pick Margaret. You have to.

There's no pick other than Margaret. Hell yeah. And then just went on for like 30 minutes at midnight last night talking about how, what an amazing achievement, Boomtown is after the really really. you know, not so great initial two episodes Slavine arc

to get, and I agree, I thought that the dinner scene that you already mentioned was like absolutely riveting and there's something

really heart-wrenching about it, but he was just like, of course that's the pick. So he'll be thrilled. He'll be thrilled with your selection. And again, it's the perfect collision

of like absolutely ridiculous and terrible and like profoundly emotional. Like when in that, in Boob, town when the reporter is talking about

how she's expecting a baby and like Margaret in her like foamy alien suit just sort of like sits down all bug-eyed and sad and like lets her go it's so dumb and so emotional at the same time and

it goes back to that Dalek idea of like what am I changing into that scene though begins with a ton of fart And then the reporter saying, seems like we got here just in time. Love to allude to explosive diarrhea in My Doctor Who. It's great to be here. Great to be here.

All right. As you mentioned, you knew to look out for the coat. Fashion style is a part of Doctor Who. Yes. Steve, will you hit us with our fashion corner clip, please? This from the man in the bow tie. Boaties are cool. It's a little preview Matt Smith for you.

Wonderful. Um, Miley Ruman, best fit of the season. Okay. I struggled with this for a bit. I was like, should I pick Jack's leather pants and vest from Bad Wolf and Parting of the Ways, which was what I wanted to pick, honestly. Should I pick Rose's Union Jack Tee because it's such an active part of those, those episodes, The Empty Child and the Doctor's Doctor Dances. But I'm going with, ultimately, I can't believe I've referenced the Unquiet Dead episode three as many times as I have. this is the twist of the pod for me.

Because it slayed me when the doctor made Rose go change. And then she comes out and she's a perfect period piece outfit. Kind of. And he's just like wearing his same leather jacket. And she's like, what the fuck, dude? And he's like, I changed my jumper. Great. So that's my pick.

She's like she's like in a hot topic Victorian dress though. She's wearing this like with loves like slutty boostier. And like I'm like, why is no one stopping her on the street to be like, madam, go back to the pleasure house. Like what are you doing here? Anyway. Oh yes. I'm going with the Union Jack T. It's iconic for a reason.

It's great. Yeah. I also love like, I mean this is such a 2005. like roses various zip hoodies and jeans like iconic of the era you know still my wardrobe most of the time uh best guest star i have to assume we have the same pick here you go first do you not have Captain Jack Argus John Barrowman John Barrowman Malcolm Merlin from the Arrowverse um I picked someone else just because I knew you're going to pick Baraman So why don't you wax poetic about Captain Jack? A Captain Jack was one of the most entertaining parts of the season.

Just genuinely a riot full of vibrancy in life made everybody else around him weirder in every scene and really seemed to know the assignment. It just really seemed to know the assignment and lean into the assignment. I did consider picking Annette Badland who played Margaret Blonde because I thought that she was really great. And I considered picking Penelopee Walton, who I, you know, I love. Shout out, shout out Dought and Abbey now and always, of course. Given my career as an editor, I considered picking Simon Pegg. The editor. I'm picking Simon Pegg and here's my.

Are you? Oh, my God. Okay. Terrible episode, Dr. Who, as far as I'm concerned. like really not a good episode. And there's just something I love, like, Simon Pegg, because this is like spaced era, Simon Pegg, you know that he is like a huge Doctor Who fan.

You know that he's like so excited to be on Doctor Who. And he is on like objectively one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who in like ridiculous frost makeup. And like what I appreciate is that he's committed to the bit. So like I feel bad that this is Simon Pegg's episode of Doctor Who. But still it's just fun to like, And this is a joy of Doctor Who. You're just watching and you're like, oh, my God, seven pegs here.

That's exciting. Yeah, mostly out of pity. Seven Pig, I'm sorry. This is your episode. You should come back and do something else. No one will remember that you were in the bad episode of the first season of Doctor Who. Come back. I love it.

I wasn't sure if Captain Jack was in too much of the season to be eligible for guest star, but you said you'd allow it. I did. I did say I would allow it. Captain Jack. Boy. Pansexual Prince, Captain Jack Karkness. Tremendous. Horniest moment, speaking of Captain Jack,

corniest moment of the season of Doctor Who. Yeah, I mean, basically everything with Jack, Rose, and the doctor is eligible. Everything with the doctor, Rose, and Linda, who was obviously in love with the doctor at the end, is eligible. But I'm going to pick what I already alluded to, but I already mentioned and talked about earlier

because I can't be me and not pick the clear winner of the season, which is 12 minutes into the show. Jackie Diler in pink silk dressing gown, sitting on the corner of her bed, saying she deserves compensation as Rose brings the doctor into their flat. The doctor saying, we're talking millions.

Jackie looking up, seeing the doctor, lean it against the door frame and saying, um, I'm, I'm in my dressing gown. The doctor saying,

yes, you are, as though she, had said like it's 72 and cloudy today. Just stayed the fact, right? There's a strange man in my bedroom. Yes, there is. Well, anything could happen.

I mean, her daughter who just brought this man in is down the hall. Yeah. The door is open and she's just like, do you want to fuck to the doctor? 10 out of 10 no notes. Oh, yes. Spoiler alert. This is not the time you're,

last time you're going to see Jackie Tyler. trying to aggressively seduce someone. I'm really excited for your future with this show. Fantastic. What's your pick? It's hard to beat Jackie Tyler, but I'm going to circle back to Captain Jack and say... I figured. There's a moment in Bad Wolf.

Like, when he's dealing with the two robots, right? And they, like, defabricate him and all the sort of stuff like that. But last night, when Steve and I were trying to figure out a good sound for the horny moments of the Dr. Whoopods. and what we settle on, what you've heard, is a classic David Tennant cashphrase, which is, oh, yes. But I was watching, there are these compilations on YouTube that is just, like, horny Doctor Who. It's just, like, all the horniest moments. And in one of those videos, there's a moment that I've never noticed before, which is, like, the robots who are, you know, giving him the makeover have these, like, astoundingly.

large round boobs. Like, why do they have them? And at a later moment in that scene, Jack is just like fondling them, like casually. And I'm just like, what the hell? Anyway, it's Jack fondling the boobs on a makeover robot, who he then later kills. Oh, yes.

All right, cringiest low budget moment of the season. Oh, I remember. Oh, boy. I mean, this just has to be everything with the slithine unzipping their forehead. zipper skin suits, climbing in and out of them, farting up a storm. No, I guess, Emodium can't do the trick. The compression ban can't do the trick. It's tough out there for a Slipine.

The number of, this is one of the things rare, because it's not just the, like, low-budget nature of how the Slavine look. You're just, like, to think, sincerely, that everybody in polite society would be this understanding of people just constantly walking around at work, farting up a storm and being, like, nervous. a stomach. Yeah. It's just not really how people behave, but it would be nice if they did, I guess. I suppose if you were like that powerful politically, maybe people do look the other way. Maybe so.

You know what I mean? Maybe so. Joe Biden is just like a fart monster. Like, God. So that's my pick. That's mine too. Yeah. It's hard to, it's hard to beat.

There will be many, many, many shots of the TARD is flying around that look really stupid. You know, I'll go as a runner-up since we both had it with the. the brain spike port. Yeah. In the long game. There's some real shit CGI. Doctor Who, I'll just say. All right.

Funniest moments. Okay. This was tough because there are a lot of super funny moments. Even inside of incredibly emotional moments. Like the doctor at the end is hollow. I bet you're fussing and moaning now. Typical.

I was like in tears and then cracking up. Wonderful. But. I would be remiss if I did not mention my gal Cassandra and the doctor and their interaction here in episode two, the end of the world. When we get the doctors, I think instantly iconic, at least to me, what are you going to do? Moisturize me. Okay. I loved this.

What's great is that my moment is also a two Cassandra moment. Fantastic. It's Rose saying, it's better to die than live like you, a bitchy. trampoline. I think bitchy trampoline is one of my favorite phrases. That was great.

What are you going to do? Moistrise me? Also amazing. You know, I love to moisturize so that one really. That hit home. If I could follow you around and just spray you at all times

like a, like a wilting flower, I would. Okay. Most emotional moment. You mentioned mine. So the hollow moment in the finale

when he's trying to tell her to go. Yeah. But chiefly, when his hologram turns to face her, right? It's that bit of, like, magic. Like, there's no way he could know that she was right there. He turns to he faces her. And he says, have a good life.

Do that for me, Rose. Have a fantastic life. Just a puddle. I was weeping every time. We have a very similar pick. I have also the doctor sending Rose back as my general pick and then kind of like a smuggle of two lines and moments within that. When he is explaining, when his hollow is explaining what's happening,

and he says, that's okay. I hope it's a good death, but I promise to look after you. And that's what I'm doing. And then is building toward this like wish for her. If you want to remember me, then you can do one thing. That's all one thing. Have a good life. Do that for me, Rose.

Have a fantastic life. That fucking killed me. I was a wreck, a wreck. And then what really got me and felt like one of the most rewarding parts of the season was Rose agonizing over this once she's back home, grappling with her purpose and what her life will be like sitting around that table with Mickey and with her mom, you know, lamenting that he is out fighting and they're here eating chips and Jackie saying like, I like kind of ate this guy, but I love them now and here's why. And Rose just says to them, what do I do every day, mom? What do I do?

Get up, catch the bus, go to work, come back home, eat chips and go to bed. Is that it? And Mickey says, that's what the rest of us do. And Rose says, but I can't. And Mickey says, why? Because you're better than us. And Rose says, no, I didn't mean that. But it was. It was a better life. Oh, man. That really got me. Like, again, I think especially for, our character who is so fully the avatar of the audience, that just felt so true to how it feels when you reach the end of a story you love and like you don't want to lose the thing that you gained and you are weighing what that means for the other people in your life. I don't mean all the traveling and seeing aliens and spaceships and things.

That don't matter. The doctor showed me a better way of living your life. No, he showed you too that you don't just give up. You don't just let things happen. You make a stand. Like this new purpose, this new perspective, this new sense of yourself that connects so deeply and inextricably from these new relationships that found family that you built with someone else has just shredded me. I love that.

Something I love about Billy Piper is she's a great crier. And, you know, Rose and Jackie, like, never have fewer than, like, 10 pounds of mascara on their eyes. and she will just let the mascara run and like and like and then like cause trenches in the like thick foundation that's on her face. So you just sort of like even as she's bad wolfing. Like she looks great, hair looks great, blah, blah, blah. There are like streaks of makeup down her face as she's doing it. Just great stuff.

Favorite episode. I think we have the same here. Mine's the two parter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. child and the doctor dances. Fantastic.

This is just indisputably, I think, the best, the height, the disease, like the heights of, of the show. And this is where I point out that this is a Stephen Moffat, two-parter. And Stephen Moffat, who eventually takes over a showrunner, and I have my thoughts and feelings about Stephen Moffat and a showrunner, has written, without question, the best episodes of the Russell T. Davies era. Something I love about Doctor Who is that, you know, if you, if you, if you, if you do. don't press skip and you shouldn't, and you watch the opening credits every time, that they always end with the title of the episode and who it's by. And it does a couple things like A, it helps me remember the titles of all the episodes. This is like, you know, we talk about shows where you can identify individual episodes.

You say the one with and like Dr. Who is like such a clear. The one with the Daleks, the one with Simon Pegg. The farting, yeah. The farting. But also then you get to know the writers as well. It reads to me, the way that they do that reads to me like almost like an old sci-fi magazine. Like these are short stories. This is a Doctor Who short story written by Stephen Moffat.

He has written The Empty Child and the Doctor Dances. But he also, you know, he wrote The Girl in the Fireplace, which we will see next season. Blink, which I already mentioned is an all-timer. Silence and Library, like all these just incredible Russell T. Davies episodes, Moffitt is like the All-Star writer. And he's introduced, he introduces a bunch of like, so he introduces Captain Jack Harkness. We'll talk about some other characters that he introduces. But he does a lot for the, like, mythology of the show.

And I just think there is, again, like, Jack brings in that, like, levity. There's the, there's the menace. Yes. Of the child with the gas mask. Yes. Are you my mummy? Like, are you my mummy is one of the scariest things. You're not a horror fan.

How did you deal with it? This is the, I really liked it because it's like, menace is a great word. There's a, there's a spookiness, but in a way that is, it sucks you in. It's intriguing.

It's compelling. Like, you want to follow the horror to the bomb or to the hospital, even though you know you shouldn't, you should run the other way. This was another one that had that kind of, the mashup of going to a moment in the past, being in a moment in history, but just,

you know, the gas mask is, flesh and bone, what the fuck is happening here? There's an invisible spaceship in the sky. Time agents, there's this mashup

of the history and sci-fi. Jealousy is very present in these two episodes as an emotion and a tendency in a way that I loved and thought really, like, heightened

to the dynamics of the character set. They were sad, they were moving, they were unsettling, they were gripping, they felt tight. I also just,

you know, you could take the episodes four and five, the initial two Slavine episodes, and say, okay, if you're in a double episode arc or you're in the same story for more than one episode and it's not working,

then that's like a shame. But this is the other side of it. I was really glad we got to linger in this story beat for a little longer because the empty child was so good and then the doctor dances was even better and like more, more gripping. And just, I mean,

it's right there in the name. The actual dancing sequences were just, dynamite. So many shows fail at this, and I always sort of compare them to Doctor Who. Dr. Who does such a good job of making you care about the one to two two episode arc characters

that you meet. So like Nancy, who you meet in these two episodes, like I care very much about her. They do a really good job of making these feel like fully formed people that you will remember and care about and feel invested in. And something

that Doctor Who, you know, this is a show ostensibly for kids, but the more adult, hour-long, horny version of, you know, trying to appeal to all demographics. But there are real stakes in these, like, good, kind, courageous people die again and again and again on Dr. Who from the very first episode. The doctor will constantly draft various people into his cause and they will just die. And that is then highlighted in one of my favorite lines in all of Dr. Who, which is, is everybody lives, Rose, just this once.

Everybody lives. And, you know, give me a day like today. Like, I just, I, I love this episode, these episodes so much. And I love this show so much. Anything else I want to say before we go, Molly? Into the Tenet Era. I can't wait to climb back into the TARDIS with you. Hobbes and Dragons at Gmail.com.

If we missed anything that you guys thought we should hit, or if there's anything you want to say about the next two seasons again. Reminder, we're doing season two, which is in season three, which are both David Tennant seasons. And they're accompanying Christmas specials. So that is what we are doing. I'm so excited. Thanks as always to Arjuna and Steve, our fellow Doctor Who fans for their production work on this episode. Thanks to Mallory for joining us.

And I thought we would go out with Nine's. final words, Steve, will you play them for us? Before I go, I just want to tell you you were fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And you know what? So was I. All. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari.

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