House of R - 'Agatha All Along' Episode 4 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 5, 2024

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the latest episode of 'Agatha All Along.' They start their opening snapshot with a discussion of that very important near kiss (06:33). Then they begin their deep dive, in which they go over theories about Rio, Agatha’s relationship with Teen, and an update to "The Ballad of the Witches’ Road" (13:15). Later, they give their theories for what is to come!  Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson  Producer: Carlos Chiriboga  Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez  Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and John Richter  Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Greetings. And welcome to House of Our, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to this jam session, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, observing that I should have burnt to a crisp years ago, but here I am solid and aimless, but alive. It's Joanna Robinson. in. Mallory, when you have to confront the lack of sleep you've got in something like that,

are you just like, the curse, I can see it. How do you feel? Yes, but I never get to the I can kill it stage. I believe in you. Someday you will kill it. I just feel it perched on my shoulders. Just the burden of your work-life talents. Okay, great.

Exactly. Joe, how was your birthday? My birthday was delightful, Mallory, but I'm thinking of you fondly and sincerely this week as you mourn. I can't. The O's. It's so painful. What I've heard, the word of the wind,

yeah, next year is their year. That's what I've heard. Okay. Yeah. I will be back in that headspace by opening day. I assure you. I assure you, you can't keep me down for long. Joe, we are here to talk about the Orioles,

your birthday, your three-year ringerversary, all of it, but also something else. episode four of Agatha all along. But before we explain that this was very clearly a group effort, some quick programming reminders. This is going up late Friday. By the time it's up, you will be able to find over on the Ringerverse, the Midnight Boys,

boon about Joker. Wow. I've heard, I haven't heard the podcast yet, but I did, was a recipient of Joe Me's like, immediate, fresh review via text message. And it was spicy, a spicy take from Joam. Yes, yes. I can't wait for the bright pod.

Can't wait, genuinely. We will not be potting about Joker at the top of next week as originally planned. I will be traveling. We will be back with you at the end of next week, though, for our deep dive into Agatha episode five. And already waiting for you is it didn't actually end up being the longest podcast in the history passed far, but it was super close. We almost beat our record previously established mere months ago.

I know. Someone's like, is it finally going to have a four in front of it? I know. I was like, it doesn't. Don't worry, guys. Rings of Power finale pod. What's going to do it? Is it the Paul of Fame episode?

Is that a four-hour joint? No, I don't think so. Maybe like the eventual tropes course on prophecy, that'll be like four-hour pods or something like that. I don't know. That's the one. Who could say? Well, we'll finally cross that threshold.

but the rings, the very long, very meaty, very deep, Rings of Power finale pod is waiting for you. We had such a fun time journeying to Middle Earth this season. So if you haven't checked out Rings of Power yet, check it out, listen to the pods. We got to chat with the showrunners. Delightful. Had a fantastic conversation with them about the conclusion of the season and what awaits. We really just had a great time with that pot.

So please listen to it. Joanna. Where can the people listen? Where can they watch? Okay. I'm going to try to do the watch part correctly and then you tell me if I got it wrong. You can watch on YouTube, right?

We already do that, right? And you can watch in various social clips that are clipped out for your enjoyment on TikTok, on Instagram, etc., etc. So follow the pod on all of your social platforms. But you can also watch it in Spotify. You'll just be playing it in Spotify and then all of a sudden our faces pop up.

There we are. Plus all the wonderful art direction from the video team. And then last, but not least. Yep. It's no longer hardfoot season, but it's always hardfoot season in our heart. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com is the email address where you can find us. Send us your ag at the theories. The theories are bubbling.

Boy, are they. In the cauldron this week. My goodness. So, yeah, send us your theories, Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We'll be getting into the penguin soon. So send us your penguin thoughts in advance of that, all that sort of stuff. So yeah. Did I do it?

crushed it one way or another at the three year anniversary crushed it did I put not only petroleum jelly but also the various

lids and jars and bottles into the brew all of it into the brew stir it up counterclockwise spoiler warning

yes everything that happened in this episode of Agatha all along will come up today if it's happened previously in Agatha

might come up today if it's ever happened in the MCU might come up today. Comics canon might come up today. We have not seen beyond episode four of Agatha. No one has. But we might mention a, no one has. We might mention a trailer nugget or like a promo image or some merch tie-ins as we go. We have not seen beyond this episode. We have a lot to theorize about and speculate about. Okay. Joe, yes. The dangerous but charismatic ladies are back. Let's pod. Which stuff go? Seekest thou, thy.

road take us into the opening snapshot. Episode four. If I can't reach you, let my song teach you. Genuinely, beautiful. What a cheat new lyrics. All of our plotting and planning out the window. New lyrics.

I know. But exciting. I love a fresh set of lyrics to pour over in a side-by-side chart. You know. A astounding work from you, genuinely. You inserted like a table. Love a table maker.

Yeah. Inserting a table is beyond. Mike N, so I'm very proud of you. Joe, yeah. Give us a quick taste. What did you think of Agatha, episode four? Yeah, so I really love this episode, and I think exactly what we talked about last week

in terms of bringeth Aubrey Plaza back to the episode fourth post-taste. And she just injected just so much back into the show. And it was horny. it was gay. It had a musical number. Like the theory corner is just a burst out all over. Once again, this feels like a show. Just tailor made for me.

Happy birthday to me. You texted me and you were like, because I hadn't seen it yet, I was out. And you texted me and you're like, they did a whole new musical number just for your birthday. But what you didn't say is they did a horny near kiss for your birthday. I know.

I wanted that to be a surprise. Thank you for letting me to say. cover that on my own. I really appreciate you. And I just want to say, I think on balance, the trial stuff is, like the sort of escape room, puzzle room aspect of the trial stuff is like kind

of fun in like a Disney Plus kind of way. But the stuff around it, the stuff that's happening on the road is so much more potent to me. So that's where I am. I think the puzzle room stuff is fun and then the road

stuff is what makes it all feel like a bit deeper. So, yeah, how about you? How are you feeling? I thought it was just a blast. I just had a blast. It was so fun to the point about the trials, really now getting a feel for like what the rhythm of presumably the bulk of the rest of the season is going to be.

I'm with you. The actual, I do enjoy a riddle and a puzzling out. And I think actually the way that these episodes are blocked and paste inside of them feels very, Much like making that potion in the cauldron, like minus throwing in the key ingredients inside of the bottles. Like very carefully calibrated. Did you get some feedback on the, it would be okay to throw in all the bottles? Because the plastic is also probably made of petroleum is the feedback we got from listeners. Interesting.

Okay. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I mean, again, it felt imprecise. But, you know, like just dump them all in, no matter how many it brought down. Yeah. The way that we are spending, like the bookend of the episode out on the road,

and then even in the stretch where we are in the trial and piecing together what needs to be done against the clock. Like the clock, of course, inherently puts like an injection and a jolt of urgency into these episodes. And the way that each character consistently is getting a beat of consequence and a beat of note against whatever the task in question is, even though there is like a primary person for each trial, right? We had water potions for Jen. We have the fire and protection here for Alice. Everyone's getting their moments. We're learning something about each of them across each episode.

The mix in this episode in particular, but across the show to date of humor and heart, is just delightful. Like it is, I'm laughing, I'm cackling throughout these episodes. And then I am deeply moved and touched. And having Rio back, like you said, was, I mean, I don't know, like, this was, exactly. Final strand of hair, 40 lines of cocaine.

Like, this was just electric stuff. And I can't wait to talk about all of the moments between Rio and Agatha. But that final scene was unbelievable. It's actually one of those moments where you feel yourself like leaning forward, moving toward your screen. And you can't help it. You're so drawn in. I don't think I've done that, like, literal lean since Fleabag season two,

where my, like, nose is like one inch away from the screen. Still unmatched, I think. Yes. And then, you know, we joke about, like, oh, I was yelling kiss at the screen. I was literally yelling, which I never, I don't think I've ever actually done that before, yelling at the screen. So, like, yeah. And it's on Disney Plus, you know, like, again, we didn't get like a full,

smooch yet. But I'm emboldened by the fact we're in episode four. Like, you know, miles to go. I'm excited. So, yeah. Same. Great stuff. It was.

Also, like, I think what I should say like, no, she doesn't say fucking bitch. She said something bitch. And I was just like, Disney Plus. Here we are. Yeah. Here we are. Not like someone taking shit to be clear. Like someone saying shit.

Alice said shit. Who knows? Who knows what awaits? All right. We have a lot to talk about. What trial is that? I guess. Could be earth.

Some fertilizer, you know? Can I tell you? Okay. So usually, I like, I genuinely usually have like a laugh when we get like a kind of scathing review. And this is one we got, we got a, we don't get a lot of them. But we got one about our Tolkien episodes where someone said our crassness was selling the purity of Tolkien. And I just had to laugh forever because I was just sort of like, I. we love Tolkien.

Also, we're going to just be ourselves as we talk about it. So, you know, welcome to the party. Do you want to join us? Fellowship can save the day and like, just like try a blowjob or two. Why not? Why not?

I genuinely think the professor wouldn't find. So here we go. Ellen Dill rub me down like one of your French tables is maybe one of my favorite things we've ever said. Still thinking about that. Oh, boy. Okay. To all that's foul and fair, indeed.

It's time for the deep dive. All right. Yeah. Let's start at the beginning of the episode. Okay. Sharon's burial. Who? Who's Sharon?

Who's that? The constant Mrs. Hearts throughout this episode, just brutal. Brutal. Brutal stuff for Sharon. Yeah. We open on her body. She's still dead. Tough stuff.

Still hoping that we find out that she made it back to the mortal coil alive. Top side. Top side. Yeah. For now? Fucking dead. Yeah. Corpse.

Agatha? Sitting by the body as his teen. And Agatha says, hmm, I didn't think you had it in you. And teen says, you didn't think who had what in them? Who or what is this about, Joanna? Could it be teen himself?

Could it be Sharon herself? Could it be? whoever has decided that it is no longer assurance time to breathe themselves. You know, there's a lot of intriguing possibilities here. Yeah. What do you think?

The road or whatever entity on the road is claiming the souls, claiming the mortality of these visitors. Agatha knows that Sharon doesn't belong there. I'm happy to point that out in mere moments. Yeah, she's like,

of course the road was going to be. going to kill her. Yeah, he's an innocent. So it's like, okay, the road might kill some witches, which is apparently some of the road loves to do. Oh, but you're going to kill my random neighbor? Yeah. I'm not that upset about it, but I didn't. Just wanted to plant flowers and go to a party. Those were the rules. Yeah. Just wanted to do some laundry with some friends. Who says no? Who among us? Then we get some set up, Joe, for the second trial. Alice is kneeling over Sharon's corpse. And Lilia and Jan are whispering about her mother. We don't know what Alice is going through. her mother might have died on the road.

And Alice is like, she did die on the road, but not this one. She died in a fire in a hotel room while on tour. Fire from the curse. We were going to see inside of this episode how the curse works its horrors on this family. What did you make of this little setup here? Well, as soon as she said, like, died in the fire, then I was thinking about Lorna Wu as she appeared in last week's episode inside of the steam room when they're looking for like Eucalyptus essential oils.

But the steam, like if we rewatch that, that's going to like read smoke to us, right? Like I'm sure it did to Alice as well. Right. Yes, absolutely. Alice says, she said the road would save me. Jen says, from what? So we're getting this like very tantalizing setup for what's going to unfold here. What are you, where are you right now on why the popular line across the witch community is that

Lorna Wu was lost on the road? Um, I don't have a great answer for that right now. I think like maybe lost lost to a spell. And I think especially like as we think about like what like which isn't a thing that they want, power, protecting someone that's going to come up again and again in this episode. So if Lorna was in pursuit of something, break the curse, protect my child, all this sort of stuff like that, that's something a witch would sort of walk.

the road with. And if, and if as is sort of like misinterpreted elsewhere in this episode, people thought she was constantly singing the ballot in an attempt to open the road. Right. You know. Yeah. Reasonable deduction that Lorna would have been lost on the road if her breakaway pop head. Every concert is down, down the road. Agatha's really eager to get going again. We're going to track across the episode. A lot of things on the Agatha front, but including her relationship to pursuing the trials, to walking the road. And she's like, we're on the clock, let's go. No time for burials, no time for morning, no time for decorum. She rips off some just absolute top tier asshole dingers here.

R.I.B. Mrs. Hart. Well, shall we? All right. And then when everyone is horrified, Alice and Tina are kindly digging a grave for her, so they'll catch up when they can. Vaminos. And then this was my favorite. Mrs. Hart was a bad draft pick, okay? And then just like, of course the road killed her. I am loving the idea. Ring her core.

Very much so. Of Agatha Harkness, GM of the reluctant coven. And now I need, we just, we're coming off in real time, the first off season hard knocks. And I need now this. I need hard knocks off season with the Westview Coven. I want to be in the war room with Agatha as she is scouting draft picks, scouting free agents. I need this.

I need this all. Carlos is with me. I know it. I believe you and I wish I were with you. I'm your sister and Carmen in so many other moments. But it's okay because Harnox is here for you. Something else pinged for you. A lot of musical shit here for me.

Okay. But also she says, so she says vomino's here, right? Yes. And in a previous episode, she said, And we have heard Rio say Teveo twice to her. The Teveo interpretation has been really interesting from people who speak Spanish more fluently than I do because it's sort of like it's like an I see you sort of thing like or I will be seeing you.

I'll see you soon. Right? Teveo. But also like I see you like I'm the one who sees you sort of thing. It has a certain connotation. But anyway, between the Vamanos and the Andalé and the Teveo from. Rio and this very clear message inside this episode about the history that these two women share, I'm excited for their past and is it going to be like a Spanish language flashback?

That could be exciting. Like, is that how or where they knew each other sort of thing? So, yeah. I can't wait to find out. I hope their flashback episode is like 19 hours. Yeah. In Ibiza. 19 hours in Ibiza with Rio and Agatha.

Twist my arm. An entire season of the L word in Abitha. Love it. Let's do it. Wonderful stuff. Jen points out that they're down to green witch. Agatha's staggering callousness, as she puts it, is not the only thing to focus on here. They go back and forth on the actual language of the lyrics of the ballad.

Agatha says it's Coven 2. She's not fussed by not having a Green Witch here. And Jan says it's Coven. True. Now, we have the privilege of watching these episodes with subtitles on Disney Plus where we can confirm that in episode two, the lyric was in fact, Covent, true. But this leads to this fascinating exchange where you're like, Alice, your connection to your mom and the most famous version of the ballad. Why don't, what do you think? Right. And then Alice asked Agatha, well, how many which has left the road with you? She says with you. Not how many left the road? How many left them with you last time? And Agatha holds up one finger. So, because. Because of the with you prompt, is your interpretation of that that it was Agatha plus one other, Coven 2? Or is your interpretation of that that Agatha was the only one who left and survived the trials? I think it's intentionally ambiguous because I don't have a good candidate for the plus one. Because we had theorized maybe she walked the road with Rio before, but we have some other theories about Rio's role right now.

Was it Nikki, like, did she walk it with her son? Is her son like a plus one? that she had, or is it just her? We did get an email for my listener, Greg, who pointed out, who thought the way that Catherine Hahn sort of put up the one finger made him think a lot about Dr. Strange and the like one outcome movement from Infinity War and Endgame. But yeah, I don't know. It's very tantalizing.

I can't wait to find out. There's a very popular theory that I don't personally ascribe to that Agatha has never walked the road before. She's lying about having walked the road. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me. It makes sense in terms of like maybe she doesn't know the rules or maybe she skirts the rules. But I feel like we can explain a lot of those moments with like the road changes for the covenant. Right. So like she doesn't, she doesn't walk to this exact road before, but she's walked the road before. I don't think it makes a ton of sense if she's never walked the road before. But we'll see. Yeah. I've been wrong before. Just the once.

you're the best you're the best uh why do they need a green witch well jens like we did this whole water face thing and my potion's expertise was really crucial uh we're going to hit that earth magic phase and we need somebody who has that area of expertise and specialization and as they're having this back and forth in this debate we get this shot of teen gently placing flowers on the grave that he has dug for Sharon. It was this little thing, but it just was so touching and gentle and personal and

caring. And we've gotten a lot of moments like that from teen, but I just really loved that. Me too. As they squabble here about whose fault everything was. Yes. So last week we talked about the Stephen Stunheim musical Into the Woods, and

I referenced like a bunch of different songs, but still there was a corner of my heart that was like, but maybe you're making this up. because like maybe you just want this to be an Into the Woods illusion and maybe it's not actually a direct illusion. I now have zero doubt that they are referencing into the woods throughout here. Again, if you weren't listening last week, this is a musical where they smash up a bunch of different parietail stories and there's like a very central witch character in that story. So I think, you know, they're drawing from all these different witch stories across the board.

But into the woods, this idea of going into the woods in order to confront the darker sides of yourself, come out the other side to get your wish, to get the thing that you're wishing for. There's a very famous, well, whatever, they're all famous songs in my heart, but there's a song in the second act when they all turn on each other, right? And it's, the song is your fault. That's what it is. And it's like, but it isn't my fault. You were given those beans. You're persuaded me to turn away my California means without those bees there have been. No stock to get up to the giant in the first place. Wait a minute. Magic means for a cows. so old that you had to tell the light of the witch you told.

So they're all blaming each other about like all the things that they have done and whose fault is it is it? Jack's fault is it. Little Red's fault. Is it Cinderella's fault? Blah, blah. And then the witch interrupts them and goes into this other song, which we actually we talked about last week.

But so this squabble here on the road about whose fault it is is just a crystal clear to my view into the woods illusion, which is exciting. Love this for you. We can just be on into the woods watch as much as we are, Wizard of Oz watch, etc., etc., etc. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Would you like to repeat your recommendation

for which versions to seek out and avoid? Absolutely. It felt like a very important thing. It's very clear to me. Do not watch the cinematic version of Into the Woods if you would like to do some extra homework. Please watch the filmed stage version for the 1980s with Bernadette Peters.

And actually, fun fact. Oh, I actually wonder if this bothers Patty Lupin. Went into the woods. on Broadway. It was the same year that Paddy Lupin was in Anything Goes. And she lost the Tony

to Joanna Gleason, who was the female lead of Into the Woods, the baker's wife. And in a recent Hot Ones video with Aubrey Plaza, Aubrey Plaza is given

the prompt to ask her, like, you know, you lost this many Tony. You won this many tons as you lost these many to Paddy Lupon. What's the one you lost that you felt like

you should have won? And Palipon's like, into the fuck you? Woods, Joanna Gleason should not have beaten me in that. I should have won it for anything goes. And what's funny is I was just rereading her memoir because I'm kind of in a Palli Lu Poem like state of mind because she's just like thrilling me. So I was rereading her memoir and she talks, she says it a bunch of times in that book too.

So this has like been on her mind for years that she lost into the woods. So I just think it's really funny that she's sort of like having to do into the woods sort of cosplay in this show. Watch the staged version. it is filmed. You can watch it. Please do not watch the movie version,

the stage version. But actually, like, even before they got to this, there's part before this, when, when I, I know you're laughing at me,

it's fine, but when I'm not, I just, I'm so, I just am so, like, full of genuine love for you. And I,

it makes me happy to watch you this, like, overjoyed and euphoric, drawing these connections between things you love. It fills my heart. When Agatha earlier is trying to get them to go when she's like,

bomb on the road and comes back, she keeps flicking and swirling her coat. It is so, I mean, like a million different witches have done this. You know what I mean? Like this is a thing that witches do. But like it is so Burnett Peters as the witch in Into the Woods coated for me. I can't even tell you. Like the technique is the same.

Just this constant, any occasion to flick and flourish the bottom of the coat, the way that she does the cloak is how I read that. Okay, let's move on with our lives, shall we? Am I going to come back to this? I might, but let's move on with our life. Thank you. Sorry. Wonderful.

Genuinely wonderful. I love this show. Tremendous stuff. We need to like whip up a playbill for your theater insights here. Put it on the gram. I know that you get served like I do a bunch of, of like junket snippets of whatever show we happen to watching the algorithm figures it out and then starts serving it to us.

Are you getting the Aubrey Plaza Patty Lupone junket clips? I have been served a couple. And the story about how Aubrey Plaza lived with Patty Lupone during her Broadway debut. Wonderful stuff. We're living right now. That's all I have to say. Hot House of Our Summer really just became brisk house of our fall, didn't it? Ariana Grande and Cynthia Rebo are on the cover of Vanity Fair.

to promote Wicked, which season continues a pace. Which stuff go? Yeah. And never stop going. Never stop going. Just keep on going. Yeah. Great stuff.

I'm going to throw this out there as my, I think this was the line that made me laugh the most of this episode. There are so many funny moments. But when teen says they're all to blame and that the fatal mistake was not looking out for each other. And Agatha just says, most fatal for Mrs. Art. It just like killed me. Not the way it killed me.

This is art, but it was so funny. I don't know. There's just like an absolute ease and magic to her humor. It's just wonderful. On the one hand, it's so funny and it's so callous and it's so Agatha. But I like the note that a couple people have made that like this is both, this is both played for humor and also contrast to her reaction to teen being in danger at the end of the episode. Yes. And the journey that we watch her go on inside of this episode and the range.

inside of this episode is just really astonishing, very rewarding. Last episode we talked show, not just about the humor and the heart, but about how teen really wanted to be there, right? It's like, oh, I don't want to be a bummer if this was the end. He's the one now in the face of death. Yeah. These very clear stakes who was like, I wish we could go home. Like this was not what he thought this was going to be.

Yeah. And Alice pulls a reverse check. Shepard says we can't go back. Not shouldn't. We can't go back. We can't go back. And the can't, even though she will later try to turn around and evade the house when it pops up, it's the language feels particular.

Like we do get this sense that the only way actually out of this is through it. Which is something that Agatha has said to Wanda in season one, sort of about their journey through her psyche, is you have to go through it. And like, you know, they're all processing their internal demons. You've got to go through it to get out of it. It's interesting to me, so Alice comes through with some, like, rules of the road here. Yep. Throw out your rules.

These are the witch's road rules. But, like, it's interesting to me who knows the rules when? Because they feel like different witches have chimed in with, like, well, you have to do this. It's not just Agatha who knows all the rules. each witch has like their own understanding and what the rules of the road are, you know? Yes. And and also like when they're applying the rules of a coven to the rules of the road, like when Jen is like,

we need a green witch. How much of that is about the particulars of what is required on the road? And now this sense of, it seems like because she cites her own trial, like, okay, I'm taking what I know about this, the constitution and makeup of a coven and now applying it to how this is clearly going to play out on a witch-by-witch basis. We've got to adhere to this. And what would it mean to?

And especially because Agatha, like, the way that she chooses later to describe them as rule breakers, like we're all rule breakers specifically because they're not a part of a coven, there's this link then between the rules of the road and the rules of a coven, which feels very much of a piece with the themes that we are exploring. Correct. Love a theme. Love an arc. I don't know.

Has this come up before? Love a character on an arc. How you ever considered that conflict? inside of the human heart is the only thing. The only thing worth writing about or singing about. It's time to summon a witch. It's time to summon some horny on Maine Marvel. Let's fucking go.

Yes. We deserve this. We do. Honestly, we do. We do. Marty's sad we are halfway through the season. I just like, oh, God, I don't want it to be over. But don't the great stories never end.

We're in the same tale still. Agatha, back at her desk, monitors going. GM hat on. Yeah, what does her hat say? Let's get to the press. Let's take a look at the practice squad. You know, let's summon a sub. Okay. What does her hat say? That's a great question. What would Agatha's logo be? Maybe it's like the triple goddess, like the brooch, but, you know, she's trying to get her purple back. So I'm seeing, I am seeing a Ravens like color scheme in my, in my mind's eye here. You would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. We said, That was easy.

Love it. Just a few merch notes for Marvel. As always. Alice is pretty freaked out. A lot of stuff could go wrong, trying to summon a green witch. Agatha, this is where she says, think of all the things that already have gone wrong.

And like, let's be soothed by that, right? We've confronted a lot of problems. We've made our way through. What's another problem here or there? Lillia asked if anyone has a spellbook. Joe? Did you feel good about this?

I felt good about this. She's like, here's this notebook. And Mallory and I were like, ah. I don't think we're done with it either. No, no, no. Yeah. What else is in there that might come in handy? And they line up.

They chant in Latin above some, just honestly, lovely fall foliage. Exactly. There's a witch-shaped, a humanoid-shaped silhouette in the middle of these leaves. And then they each make their specific request, because this was the primary. You have to be specific, and you have to be careful.

And as they put down their offerings one by one, after their specific requests. No, certainly not. The candles flare. The requests were so extraordinary that we just, we need to hear this. Carlos, please play the clip. May she be strong and wise

and the best at her craft. May she be smart and not annoying. And also not super political. May she be pleasant. doesn't looking. Did she bring some Advil? I have no notes, genuinely. I mean, some notes may be on the fact that they should have been more careful and asked for

some different stuff, but no notes in terms of how this show is being structured in this scene. This was so funny. Here's my note. Lillia is the only one who really nailed this prompt. Yeah. She should be strong and wise and the best of her craft. Yeah.

That does feel a useful guidance. Yes. Makes she be pleasant looking like we're delighted to Ogilobri Plaza and we'll do so at our pleasure, but like, Jed, priorities. Smart and not annoying and also not super political. Obviously, Ken She Briggs of Advil

was like just the killer. That was so funny. But I do like that again, Agatha is like really thinking about like team chemistry and also Agatha is the player in a season of Survivor who knows that if you keep the tribe member who everybody else hates till the end, you'll get the votes but can't do it because it drives

her crazy to be on a tribe with that person. I just absolutely love this. What would you have asked for, Joe, if this had been you? I would have just tried to describe Mallory Rubin as accurately as possible. May she run on. So pale, she's translucent except for the... May she a gallon guzzle, like a guzzle gallon to coffee. Tarly bags under her eyes.

May she be actively perforating her stomach with all the coffee? that she's drinking. I do think coffee would have been what I asked for, honestly. And also, you know, we know there's no cell service, so I probably would have asked somebody to bring, like, the latest. Of the O's. One of the O's. I mean, lamentably no longer, no longer necessary at this point.

But, you know, bring me a Ravens, a Ravens box score, an update or two. You can bring me a photo of Halo. Oh, I need that. I feel like I said this on the pod before, but I'll say it again. When I was living in Europe for a little bit of a time, my sister was visiting from the United States and I asked for Diet Coke because they don't have Diet Coke

in Italy. They have Coca Cola Light. It's not the same. Not the same. Yeah. So yeah, bring me those petri-cavacles. I would take some funions or like a flamen hot Cheeto. I do think that we are falling into the same trap as the stars of this show. We're really just asking for the things we want. Not the things that will help us on this mission. Bring me a shapeshifter who can turn into a lendial.

It would help me. I don't know if it helps us. on our quest. So I asked for Diet Coke smooth, skippy peanut butter, and Tylenol, chill caps. Well, there you go. I just really related to Allison's moment. I do have a couple things we want to say about this,

though. Okay, so they're asking for particular things, especially when Jen was like, may she be pleasant looking. It made me think of Jane and Michael Banks from Mary Poppins, reading out their list of what they want a perfect nanny to be, right? They read it out in song, right? As one does. Yeah.

Rosie. cheeks, no warts, plays games, all sorts, like that whole thing. So that, that like wish list part, because I've been thinking about Mary Poppins a lot, actually, ever since Agatha put on this particular costume, she's slowly stripping off parts of it. Now she's like just down to the button down slacks. But like, who knows what's to come? But in the long purple coat, when her hair was sort of like up in the top knot and when

the cameo was sort of fastened to the button down all the way up, it was. It was reading very Mary Poppins to me. And what is Mary Poppins if not a witch? You know, so I liked that there. But also more crucially, my poor fevered, anagram-addled brain can finally rest because our beautiful listener is Isabel wrote in to say, I think it's Isabella, not Isabella,

but if I'm wrong, I apologize. Either way, a genius wrote in to say, Adville, the Advil that Alice asked for, is an anagram of Vidal. A, D-V-I-L, V-I-D-L. And now I can just rest. Now I just be a piece. Now you just be a fucking peace. I don't think that's why they went with that name, but I do think that's why they put the Advil joke in there. I really do. So incredible.

Thank you so much. We'll talk a little bit more about what Rio Vidal might mean elsewhere, but like, Advil Vidal. Thank you. I'm done. I can be at peace. The Latin translation, I've seen a few different translations. I mean, I imagine that Latin is a flexible and fluid sort of language to translate. I've seen a few different translations of the Latin that they read here. We Salmon a Green Sister above, below, within, without. I mean, that's, later, real will be like, from above, from below. Like, where did I come from? We'll talk about that. Someone online said that the, and again, I don't, I don't speak Latin.

Said that part of this translation is it's not easy being green. Or it's hard to make a green witch might be what it is. But it's not easy being green, which is obviously like a Kermit the Frog reference. It would be a funny joke to like put in in Latin if they want to do it. It's a current reference or it's an alphabet from wicked reference, which I'm sure is something that is on their mind. I just want to, I'm going to come back to this theme, but when I think about Elphaba and Wicked, I think about the lyric from Defying Gravity

where she says, and if I'm flying solo, at least I'm flying free, this idea of witches and fellowship and friendship, which is just going to come back again and again and again. So if you, dear listener, know Latin better than I do, and I'm sure you do,

hobbits and dragons at d'emel.com is where you can gently correct us. It's just a pleasure to be with you today. I've just decided to be myself on this particular show. You should always be yourself. You're the best. Thanks. That's you.

I saw Wicked in London during my semester abroad. I need to refresh. It's a long time ago. Boy. I mean, are you going to go to, you're going to head to the cinema to see Ariana Grande? Yeah. Are you? Why not?

Okay. Yeah. I love a movie. You do love a movie, but you're particular about what movies you see. And I didn't know whether or not wicked was high. You're being in loud, dirty, crowded theaters of strangers. But I love a movie. Correct.

Yeah, I can be strategic with my showtimes. Joe. Yes. Agatha resumes the chant. She swings her arms. The candles go out. Now, I was wondering, did you view this as falling under the bucket of analog magic that teen outlined last episode when he said, you know, labor intense, manual acts of magic,

witchcraft, emphasis on the craft. because Agatha has not gone through her trial yet. Like Agatha has not made it to the end of the road. Agatha has not actually had her power restored, but she is able to execute this spell. Is that because this is the analog craft that episode three established was possible? I don't think so.

What I think is that it has to do with the coven all doing it together. And this is a couple things. One, there's like that line, the previous line about, you know, even the witch with a tiny spark of magic sort of will be able to flourish

and resonate with other members of the Coven. But also, like, later in this episode, we see Jen do some potions magic, like, which might be part of the craft column, or it might be that once you emerge past your trial, your power

starts to come back. So is Jen unbound in a way after the potions trial? You know, certainly we might say that Alice is like unburdened and perhaps in better touch with her power than ever before or after her trial. So like if the Coven working together drafting off of Jen's

re-burgeoning power, I can see that sort of being. And I think power shared, power consumed, power stolen is such a key theme of this whole journey. So that's what I would say. Alice was an interesting one because she was obviously

using the dagger to draw the protection spell with the circle before making it through a trial. But also she did. seem like in like a slightly different spot than the rest of them. Like with the pitch to Jen was you're bound. Come get your power back. The pitch to Alice was, can learn what happened to your mom.

So yeah, it's interesting to track like the particulars. I don't know what's different craftwise between what Jen does in the sink and what Alice. You know what? Here's what I'll admit. I don't know where the line is between power and craft exactly. And I'm curious that the show does.

Yeah, yeah. I'm eager to see since our attention was drawn to that, I guess. Yes. If that ends up feeling like a distinction that matters. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So something for us to kind of keep an eye on. Lillian tells them true witchcraft takes time.

The spell must marinate, jesite, and writers were poised to just sit, have another little bonding session. No, a hand shoots out of the grave. a very like Wanda's arm emerging, right, in a multiverse of madness like image. And a filthy, coated in dirt. Oh, yeah. Limbs at odd angles, needing to crack back into place, emerges.

Rio Vidal. Aubrey Plaza's back. What a fucking thrill. Rio Advil is here. Before we talk about Rio, I just have to say. Got a shout out my. my girl, Lillia, once again, because they're all like, what the fuck is happening before they see that it's Rio, right?

Agatha, what did you do? This is what she says was a group project. Great stuff. And Lillia is holding the book. She's like, why is the print so small? And while I, like Lillia, cannot see, I felt seen in this moment. Were you like Teveo? Teveo, Lillia.

Exactly. But it's not, it's not zombie Sharon. Great news. Thrill to tell you, it's Rio. She looks dynamite. Joe. She's like, heard you guys were having a party. This was the trailer moment, so we knew this was coming.

And then she says, I was in the neighborhood. Now, last pod, we explained that while we do have a dedicated section on these deep dives for Marvel pods, called Theory Corner, and we probably will hit a couple other things in Theory Corner today and maybe even quickly run through all of these data points for Rio again, this was so present in the text, the core text of the episode. that it is not possible really to separate these things out. We would just end up saying 20 times throughout the deep dive. We'll talk about this later in Theory Corner,

which is not very fun for anyone. So here's the first moment where we will talk about the fact that the now we've been speculating and theorizing about Rio's identity all season. Without question, the dominant theory on ye old interwebs after this episode is that Rio is playing death. The Marvel character, the cosmic entity death, who can take the form of a skeleton

who often appears so as a woman, often wearing a black outfit, very reminiscent of the one that Rio was in when she kicked that door down at the end of episode one. No, no, we've done Thanos. So no, no Thanos romantic plotline coming for a lady death

in this stretch of the MCU, but Agatha, sub it in, why not? We're going to hit the beats that support or seem like they could possibly support the theory that Rio is death as we go. And this one, I was in the neighborhood. It's not the strongest one in the episode, but it is one because as you've speculated the last couple pods, it's at least in the bounds and realm of possibility that the road is in hell. In hell.

Yeah. Is in an underworld-like realm. We're in an underworld journey, for sure, is what it feels like. at least metaphorically. Yeah, I was in the neighborhood is so good. Also, she came out of a grave. She came out of a grave. She did do that. She did do that. She did do that. That seems like a dad point. She loves a hood. Yeah. I was in the neighborhood is such a good line because it's either like, yeah, you're here in hell, the underworld my domain, but also just like she was literally in Westview. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. The neighborhood, we're going to come back to Westview as a

as a key point. But yeah, I, and I was thrilled, thrilled to see her. I'm excited to be. I mean, like, the handout of the grave, it's so funny. I've seen so many people say, like, this is a reference to X. It's a reference. It's a reference to too many things to nail down exactly what it's a reference to. If I had to pick one, I might say carry, but like, I, you know, there's just like so many options here.

So, you know, here we are. I have a question for you. Yeah. Agatha was shocked. to see Rio. Yeah. What did you make of the fact that Agatha, who grabbed Sharon in the first place,

grabbed Mrs. Hart in the first place, knowing she was not actually a green witch because she did not want to heed what Lilia drawing the black heart on her eviction notice seemed to point to, which is Rio is the one who's supposed to be on this journey with you, seemingly not considering that working this summoning

charm could call Rio? I think do you think she does know that that's a possible outcome? Does she want that but can't admit it to herself? I think that feeds back in like what's going to come immediately after when Alice is like, so you're a green witch and Rio says less of uglymish more, The Green Witch. Great stuff. The Green Witch. Great stuff.

Some titles, Indemonic Voice. That's what it said. Someone, I saw someone, I think it was on, in my Twitter mentioned, said it was the like Benegeser. voice also, which I liked. But more witch stuff go. But, um, doing prophecy. But I think, like, let's say that Rio is lady death or is some form of death.

Like, I could, I could see Agatha being like, well, that's not a great witch. Right. You know. But I can also, it's easy to draw the connection between like, you know, worm food, like, earthy, you know. Earth could be death. Yeah. graves.

Graves. Back to the soil. Rebirth, death and rebirth. Right. And like, you know, we was going to note this later, but like we, we have a lot of death imagery and people dying and debt, the specter of people were grieving. But there's also like a lot of rebirth stuff, a lot of baby stuff. We get some Jen insights, right, about her. Midwife.

A midwife, etc. Obviously when we saw Agatha's vision in the trial last episode, the Darkhold. was in the cradle, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I had the same thought, like, Earth, just because it's been a Greenwich before, it doesn't mean it couldn't be death here. Well, like Greenwich, like, but I could see that perhaps Agatha was like,

when we summoned a Greenwich, I didn't think you could tuck death under that umbrella and yet here we are. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just talk for a second about what Rio's wearing. But please. We have some incredible FitWatch stuff coming throughout this episode of television.

Rio emerging from this grave in skin-tight leather pants. Green jacket. Like, brawlet jacket thing. The green, the black. This was just like, before we even get to the rock star phase of the episode, this was rock star stuff. It was absolutely sensational. And then, Joe, what does she do?

She's looking around the road. She's asking, what are we supposed to do? How does this work? Seems like a novice. She starts skipping. And this is, of course, yet another. Ozwatch, 2021 moment. Yeah.

Clearest day. Dorothy Gale skipped down the road, which was fun. Do you think Dorothy could have pulled off this outfit? Judy, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. She was a stona. Yeah.

Stornan. Stornan. I do believe that she could have. I love this because the way that Rio shows up here, even more so I would say than her appearance in episode one, she's really pinging her absolutely unhinged role in Legion. And so just like with the dirt and the foliage all over her, the absolutely unhinged eyeballs.

And so for her to do this little like, skip down the road is very, it's very returned to Oz Dorothy, actually. This idea that like, what's all this? What's all this? I've never been here before. Yeah, are you buying this?

What do you think? It does seem genuine. Yeah. But I don't think that Rio hasn't been to the road before. I think we just need to keep remembering the road changes for the Coven. So like, ooh, what does your version of the road look like?

Right. Ooh, it's got these fun, like, lights in the trees. That's cool. You know, like, what did it look like last time? We don't know. So, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Okay. Lilia is ready to accept that Rio should stick around just because Agatha hates her, calls that a pro. Very amusing to me. Lilia, my queen. She's just, she's crushing it. Yeah. But Jen and Alice, they get it.

Here's what they say. Jen says, honestly, they're just walking behind her almost like magnetically pulled in her wake. Clear ear shot. Honestly, I don't know how to feel. Do I hate her? Or do I want her phone number? And Alice is same. And Jen says, right.

And Rio kind of like smirks as she hears them say this about her. Just a delightful little moment. Do you think that next episode's trial will be an orgy? Listen, we already got... Talk about Coven bonding. We already got Agatha running around Westview completely starkers. So I think... What phase of the moon is that?

A full moon, baby. A full moon. Joanna Robinson. Yeah. The second trial is here. They're walking. The music changes. A house appears.

Now, it's new to us, very clearly, not new to Alice, who declares pass and just immediately turns around. It's just very funny as well. Yeah, it's a great. But I mean, it's Alice's episode, but this is like a really good Alice performance. Oh, man. Fantastic. She's already declared that they can.

can't go back and her words are immediately proven true because she turns around, she's walking in the other direction and boom, there is the house again in front of her now. Anything you'd like to say about this house? It's five-sided per Joe Locke in an interview, so it's a pentagram house. Fun. Should we build a five-sided, you know, sort of Laurel Canyon-esque recording studio house? I mean, that would be great. Great, let's do it.

I love Laurel Canyon. With all of our riches, let's do it. Our team lunches can be at Pache. Oh, my God. Under the general store. Yum. Delightful. Her chicken?

Mm. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. Joe, we walk up to the door and we see, much like last week, the carvings of the faces of the moon, the sides of the doors are rare. Beautiful. Teasing the trial by fire that awaits.

Waxing moon, fire phase. So, water, episode three, fire, episode four, air in episode five for Lillia. Is that what we think? I don't think so just basically. on trailer stuff. I think Lilia's is later. I think we're, I haven't seen a next time on.

I'm sure there is one. I think the 80s one is after this one, though. Like, and, but I don't know who's trial that is. The road is purple as they emerge. And I suppose air could be, I mean, this seems like Agatha, right? Yeah.

But that feels like, early for Agatha. The one if Agatha gets more than one. Yeah. But, and then also what other, color would air be because water's already blue. So if you're doing air, yeah. I mean, if you're doing Avatar,

colors is orange. But like, what color is air? Maybe purple. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It feels like it should be right, right? It should be Jen. It should be Alice. It should be Lilia. But I think Lilia is later.

But we'll say. Could next week be teen? Maybe. I mean, 80s wouldn't really make sense for teen. Yeah. But I don't. know. I'm excited. I don't even know what that trial is. You know? Can't wait. I understand what Lilia's trial appears to be the one where they're all in costume, which is costumes. And that's the tarot trial and that's the air trial. But I don't know what the 80s trial is.

Tune and find out. Watch the space. Same time next week. Orgy. You know, people in 80s horror movies were always taking their tops off. So I hope this happens for you, Mallory. Great news. Thanks. You're welcome. I will be flying back from New York on Wednesday night and watching this on an airplane for the first time. So, you know, I mean, we'll see how that goes. Listen, Snoop on your, like, scene mates screen at your own parallel to the flight. That's how I feel about that.

Indeed. Indeed. Joe, fire this week, no matter what awaits next week. And fire is right. Have you seen these fucking outfits? Also, to go back, I know you have a privacy screen on your laptop. So I'm actually not worried about anyone's savings. I haven't used that since we were in the studio together.

I use it all the time now. Do you? Yeah. Oh, I mean, like, you know, without a camera over my back shoulders, we recorded in studio. Nobody needs to know my business. Wow. Anywhere I go. I mean, you go out in the world and you're like around people.

I'm like, do I need this on my couch? I will say, and hopefully the two places I sit. Hopefully Amazon's not listening. It doesn't confide me. I did watch the Rings of Power finale in a Pete's coffee, like in a corner. No one could really see my screen. but I was working on notes. I had my headphones on,

but I was definitely, like, in public watching a very embargo. But the privacy screen was on. My back was to the wall. No one could really see it. But I definitely was like, if Amazon knows, they'll snit me. We got those privacy screens on Amazon. So there you go. Thanks, Bezos.

All right. As you're saying, everyone looks amazing. They look so fucking great, like real moveover. Daisy Jones on the Six Energy here. Agatha catching her own reflection and saying, ooh, check me out. Woo. Just like adoring her own image.

And then they all come around and gather and teen observes that they could be, you know, they're ready for an album cover, etc. This was wonderful. Do you have a winner? Would you like to award Fitwatch honors this week? I mean, on the one hand, I'm tempted to give it to Agatha and Ria, who I think are like a matching set in the sort of that's what I will be doing.

I'll let you handle that then. Yes. And so I will say Jen, Cesar Zamada, in like absolute pitch perfect Donna Summer drag, like the wig, the crown of flowers, the flowing white dress.

This is off the cover of a Donna Summer disco album. And I said that like when I saw in the trailer, because there's that like slight overhead shot of her in the trail, I was like, this is disco, this is Donna Summer. So we're doing more rock than disco, but that's who she's representing here. And I thought that was like, in terms of like intentionally invoking an icon of the era, I thought that one was really successful. I do want to read this Joe Locke, a quote about his look.

I could say this for wigwatch, but I'm not. But he says, I love the trousers of the recording studio because they made my bum look big, which according to Joe is a good thing. that's great. But I didn't like the wig in that one. Same. Joe. So overall, I'd say this one where we have an 80s one, I'm in shorts like a jersey. That was my favorite. So he loves the trousers because they make his bum look big. But when I saw the wig, I was like, we're not, we're not sending our best people for this particular wig. What did you think of the Liza Minnelli wig for for Lillia? Wonderful. Great stuff. Wonderful. I was also thinking it's funny because I was,

I was looking at Sabrina the Teenage Witch for another reason. I was, because I was thinking about when you see, when I seen all the old school. Comics. No. Comics. Well, we could talk about Melissa Joan Hart if you ever want to, but. I'd be thrilled. Okay.

And Salem and the Cat. But I was looking at the comics because I was thinking about Josie and the Pussy Cats because we have a girl group here. Whenever I see a girl drummer, I think about Josie the Pussy Cats. And I was thinking so Josie the Pussy Cats and Sabrina are all part of like the archieverse in the comic sphere. And so I was looking up sort of Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Josie the PussyCast and when they crossed over and I found this comic from the 90s called like Sabrina's

Halloween spooktacular and um in which she invites Josie and the PussyCats to like play at a Halloween party that she's throwing or whatever. And she's wearing like a very similar like sort of like elaborate, shoulder plungy V-neck kind of look. So I don't think that's what they were going for necessarily, but I was just sort of like, oh, hey, there it is. It's a great look for which to wear. Love it.

Absolutely. Yeah. Fantastic. Wonderful. We also get everyone look great. Yeah, everyone looks amazing. We also get it as they walk in and change their outfits, is similarly to last episode, we get an aspect ratio shift off the road versus into

these like escape rooms. And this is a technique they used in Wanda Vision to go in and out of the TV land world. And in a fun way, the TV land world, even the aspect ratio inside of the TV land shifted based on what era of TV they were in. This seems to be a fairly standard, just sort of like letterbox versus not on the road or off sort of thing. But that's, I mean, if we ever need to determine where we are,

and once again, I am Westworld traumatized. This was an entire plot point of Westworld season two. If we ever need to determine whether or not we're waking or in a dream space, we might look to an aspect ratio clue, or perhaps Jack Schaefer and her crew are not as cruel as Westworld season two. No matter what aspect ratio, those plunging tops on both Rio and Agatha,

astonishing stuff, they looked fucking fantastic. And it also ended up, in addition to just like looking great, it allowed for like moments where you can gauge how they feel around each other, right? Because when Rio then walks into the sound, with where Agatha is, she's like pulling it closed around her for a little cloak of cover.

I also just like that they look like a match set. Everyone had their own distinct style, but so two of them look like they belong together. Cleavage on Mains. And no, no. They do. They definitely do. Joe, we also get, we've got Oz Watch, but we've got Alice Watch here. Some Wonderland action.

We get to like, don't eat anything. Don't drink anything. We're going to get the play me, which of court on the record in a few moments, which of course, pings eat me, drink. me and the... So maybe we ask Alice. Go ask Alice. Yeah.

Fun. Delightful. I don't know why I didn't put that together. We love a portal story. I don't know why I didn't put that together with Alice's name. But of course, they're down the rabbit hole. Like that's, yeah, they're in Wonderland or Oz or the underworld or whatever you prefer. How are they going to find the record with Play Me on it?

Well, teen's like, last time we found a riddle it kicked the whole thing off. Should we go luck? He raises his hand in order to make this observation. Lillia says, yes, teen. It's great, team. It's great, team. The dynamics of the group. Just so wonderful.

All right. Let's boot open that redfin listing. Generational curse house open for doors six to seven Pacific on Wednesday. Everyone scouts the house. They go around to look at different things. Agatha stays at the mirror. Rio kind of nuzzles up to her. Sean's not the only nuzzler.

The nuzzler. She says boo. And Agatha turns and looks at her and just says no. So like we're not very far away from what we watch between them at the end. And the evolution in what Agatha is like willing or wanting to succumb to. Sucumb is such a good word there. I also think boo is really fun thing if she is death, like a very fun ghosty sort of hello. Also just so Catherine Hans like the way she's just sort of like rasping at like kind of her throat.

mid-air before she says no is this sort of yeah just like this like echo of touch or embrace or you know something like that so yeah I loved it some factors that might hurt the property value you know no matter what school's on your end joe if not the uh not the reaching uh harpy demon that's one of that's one yeah the neighbors are loud definitely comes up on uh on on the feedback from the brokers. Here's another one. One of the walls is just covered with wall hangings, which is being killed.

Oh, do you know how one of those in your house? I might after this. I mean, some beautiful images here. We're going to get to the creepy wall of masks momentarily, but let's talk about these wall hangings. Take us to theory corner here. A couple possibilities for what we might be seeing. We see a woman in stock spoiling in a cauldron.

We see a child in a cage. We see a woman burning with her hands. This is great stuff. Woman burning with her hands tied behind her back. a woman with her hand side up, a woman being lowered into a lake. I can make a rough fire, water, air, earth sort of thing if I want to hear or just analog to all those fun old-timey ways that witches have died that we've talked about a couple times on this podcast. Is this, you know, Lillia gets quite emotional looking at these.

Yeah. Do they remind her of witches she has known in the past who have died? She has seen this. She lived in Europe centuries ago. Like, is this something that she has seen before? Is the kid in the cage supposed to invoke Nick for us? Or Agatha's son, Nick? Or is this a future for all of them?

Is this some sort of future coming for each of the witches here? The kid in the cage could be teen, you know, and all these other women, are they going to drown or burn? or, you know, this is something that we've been, like, wondering. We've already, you know, gone through the water trial and through the fire trial, but that doesn't mean that they're all safe from that necessarily. And so are they all going to die in these gruesome ways? And Lillia, who can see the future, knows that in some way?

I don't know. Yeah. When I first saw the camera pan them, just because of where this was set, it was like, oh, is this tracking the way that the curse has taken and claimed each member, each generation of the family? but I'm more compelled by the possibility you're sketching out that this is, each of the images that we see here

matches what will happen to a member of this story and a member of the Coven. Because no matter what, no matter who, the fact that we can see so clearly that Lilia is this like empath across time and her psychic abilities that she is hearing these final moments, the pain of death. And we've seen, you know, we saw her response

to her hallucination of her past. past trauma, death. You took us through the history of the Italian plague last pod, right? But also like... Can I say something around that really quickly? Sure. A couple points of clarification about that last week. Oh, okay.

Did you get some emails on the Italian plague? She's speaking Sicilian, not Italian, so she's Sicilian. Like, that's something that I failed to sort of underline. So not that the plague didn't come to Sicily because it did, but just something to remember. Also, when I was like so proud of I was like, based on her hair and the lock that she's wearing and blah blah. I think this is young Lillia. And then a bunch of people were like,

the credits just called her young Lillia. And I was like, oh, okay. You know what? We don't have a credits watch segment. We actually kind of sometimes do. But we do have wig watch. Damn it. And we had Amulet watch last week.

And so I think that that was an appropriate reading. I just had to laugh at myself. That's so hard. Because I was like so proud of myself. And everyone was like, dodoi. It was in the credits. Oh, man. But, like, what we've heard from Lillia about, you know, cast out of another village,

whether blaming me for what's gone wrong, like, whether the pain and the grief and that attachment to an ability to read and feel lost, death, trauma is more general or so specific and intimate that it applies to the people in this very room with her, either way it would move her. And so, like all of this feels imbounds, but I like what you're, what you're outlining there. creepy mask wall? I wouldn't have it in my house, personally. It's a no for me.

It's given Mephisto, right? Just a quick glance, like there's a very devily vibe here. It was also given perhaps each, because you know, we do get to see that Alice sees the manifestation

and physical form of this screeching demon. Did each member of her family who was, affected by the curse, forge the mask, like the rendering of the version of the demon that they saw? Does that reflect how the demon

has haunted each one of them over time? What else? What else do you think it could be? I like that a lot. These appear to be traditional oni masks, which is Japanese, which is, you know,

Alice and her family appear to be Chinese, so I can't really draw like a cultural connection between those things. But I do feel like if you watch closely, the one that Jen is transfixed by the most, the most Mephistoie of them all, does look like eyes sort of appear in it briefly and then like they're gone.

Upsetting. There's seven of them, which makes me wonder about the Salem 7. It makes me want to go back and rewatch episode three to see if there's like a grouping of seven something in that house that I missed. Seven candles,

perhaps. Seven bottles needlessly tossed. Seven on a single cloud sofa. But yeah, so I was thinking of like the Salem 7, who are they being watched by? Are they being watched by the Salem 7? Are they being watched by Memphisto?

You know, but I But I like your theory about how the demon presented to like various generations of the family. I think that's a really fun theory too. I'm also always thinking about Buffy. So I had to think about the episode Dead Man's Party. Just going to drop that there and we can move on. Okay. Alice goes to the music wall.

Sick Fleetwood Mac poster. Oh, so good. Great stuff. She sees a photo of her mom. She's with us. Stevie. Hardcore in this episode. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Alice sees a poster, a picture of her mom, a portrait of her mom. And she and Lillia talk about Lorna. She was trying to open the road, wasn't she, with her concert? Lillia asks. And Alice says her fans were her coven. And she smiles as she says this. And like later in the episode we're going to hear about,

hear Alice share like how angry she was, right? But there was this note of appreciation and like respect and admiration. I thought in the way Alice said this and the idea. And again, we were talking just earlier in this pod, like the rules of the coven, how do you form a coven? And I love this spin on it. Yeah. Like the form and function of a coven can be distinct. And I love the idea of Lorna trying to forge that through community and shared experience, even though, of course, she's doing that to protect from this horrible.

Community and connection feels like and shared power. Again, once again, like crowdsourcing power. Yes. The power of song, much like on this podcast. with you today. I have things to say. Yeah, let's go, let's go into this Lillia part,

though. This is really exciting. We get an MTDETM, many trance dispatches as Molly likes to call them, right? Yeah. Lilia says, which is it in my wispier or my kooky?

Mm-hmm. And then she goes, Alice, Alice, don't, right? Okay, that's the part that I'm even more interested. Yeah. Which is it in my wispy or, am I kooky? Yeah.

Seems like it's from a future episode. Yes. A very like, am I a good witch or I'm a bad witch sort of future episode thing. Right.

Though we did have a Lilia trans right when Aketha called her kooky in the second episode, right? She had a trans and Alice and then I got this like,

so you're kooky. Yeah. You know? Say her a kirk. Whatever. Yeah. But we have from the start been like,

are these time slipping moments? Are we going to see? Are these things that she said, going to make sense later. And I think we get two, I think we get two loops inside of, like closed loops inside of this episode.

Here she says, the way she says, the Alice part to me is the one that really struck me. Because she says, I don't know why, but there's just a way, some way about something about Paddy Lupin's delivery. Yeah.

Read to me like someone who is seeing someone who has died alive again. And she says, it's like she's a Lilia from a future who has slipped back in time, sees Alice is still alive, is not dead yet. Right. And then tries to warn her from doing Alice, don't. Alice don't do whatever it is is going to lead to your death. Alice, Alice Death Watch brought to you by a lot of things to me.

Yeah. I'm actually worried about everyone in the Coven. But her performance later of the ballad and the way that she solo, on the end when she says wherever it may been, I'll see you at the end, I'll see you at the end, I'll see you at the end,

she says it like a bunch of different times. I have more thoughts about that a little later, but that Alice Death Watch very strong for me. And I'm curious how it read to you that sort of Alice don't moment. Also thought it was, yeah, a warning.

For a particular eventuality that yeah, Lilia wants her to avoid for just in general participating in this perhaps doomed pursuit. But yeah, I had the same thought that it felt like Lillia from the future. And that's why pairing it so closely with the kook, like a thing that we know someone has said to Lillia about herself.

Like it just really helps cement this idea that this is a future version of Lillia coming back to us in a way that Lillia can't control. Yes. Doesn't even know what's happening. Because when she's pulled out of the, in the other stretch when this happens, it doesn't appear to know that this. is just happened, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So the idea that she is, her later consciousness is coming into this moment in time and she sees Allison as trying to prevent her from moving forward was my feeling about it as well.

Agatha, goddess of rock, goes into the sound booth, and Rio follows. Fascinating exchange. Carlos, can we hear this? Did you know about one in three people, people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million

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magic as it does took the path of least resistance ferried the closest most appropriate candidate down or up hmm sexy scene we're going to talk about that part in a minute there's a gambit we'll talk about that part in a minute before we get to the theory corner

but sadly not gamming from this no sadly God if only imagine remi in the mix with these two my god you wouldn't survive it would be it actually maybe there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. That might be the tipping point.

The staging here, Joe. What did this ping for you? A ping for me, them in the interrogation room in episode two, one, and episode one, when a teen is waiting to be interrogated and the two of them are behind the glass and they're talking about him, but they're in their own little private world.

So similar setup in the recording booth are behind the glass. Everyone else is on the other side. And Agatha will sort of like permeate that boundary with the use of the microphone, which we'll talk about in a second. But it's another establishment of a little private world

between the two of them inside of a larger bubble of a made-up world. And I don't know if that's intentional, but it felt too visually similar for me to not be intentional and I'll be looking out for maybe some other versions of that

if we get that in the future. I love that. Riu is, we can hear her actually pull the dagger in that clip when she says that she's getting impatient. And that reply from Agatha, you're too early. Unmistakably, we're speculating. We're getting to, we feel like getting to unmistakable position here, but unmistakably, Agatha knows exactly who Rio is and what she's after. So we have more tantalizing like Israel,

death, capital D, the Marvel character here, impatient pulling a dagger. Well, that that pings. Does the dagger not to you now that we know look like the top of a side the way that it is curved? The curvature feels. I was just like sick merch. I can't wait to buy this. But now it's like, oh, this was for a reason.

This is clearly a Buffy the Vampire comp, but now I'm like, oh, it's a set. It's a safe. Why not both? It's a both. Why not both? I just said Seth and sit, but what I meant to say was sides.

So it's Friday. Okay. Also, it's not a sick, Lord, it's a side. But like, man, Aubrey Plaza would play a great Sith Lord. A great Sith Lord, please. The, I had this elsewhere in the notes,

but I think I should say it here. Yeah, she says, she says, ferried, which is such an interesting word choice. And if we're talking about underworlded death and stuff like that, I think the idea of the ferryman on the river of death, the river sticks. And like from the, like, this idea, idea of River as Death, as Lady Death, has been, like, you know, we were talking about Blackheart,

we were talking about a bunch of different. I was like, you know, the other day I was to you, I was like, what if she's just Mephisto? You know, like, we have been sort of playing in various theory corners around this, but this is Rio Lady Death has been a popular one from the start. And I think a lot of people thought Rio Vidal, River of Life, I've got a ton of emails about that. They're like, why are you still trying to anagram at Joanna? And I'm like, well, because Advil was coming. But anyway, River of Life, River of Death, River Stick, something like that. But if you say, I love that, fairy. What a weird word choice here, but like, you know, ferried up from the underground sort of thing. It just makes me long to be back with Jay Duplas

another season of Percy Jackson. Unless so funny, I thought you were going to think about Down with 80s. Han and Myra. I mean, that's like two. I can't just in the middle of a pod think about that without breaking down in dears. It's too much. I fucking love that part. That was the best part of the entire show, I think, of the entire show. A show where James McElroy is there looking incredibly hot for a lot of it. And yet, Pan and Lyra's separation in the...

Oh, my sweet Pan. The Land of the Dead. Love Pan. Too early. Too early for soul collecting, for claiming these bodies. I was going to talk about wanting, over the mic in mere seconds here. And that or up, up from the grave, up from hell.

The underworld, up from hell. There's just like a lot here, a lot here. Rio asks Agatha why she brought team. And Agatha evades. And then this is where Agatha runs her little mission here. I was sort of confused by this, honestly, because she wants the other member. of the coven to hear Rio say, then what? You get your power. I get my bodies and like not latch on to Rio, not trust Rio, no Rio's bad news. But in doing that, she allows Rio to remind all of them

that all of the witches around Agatha just always die. And I don't believe that that is a worthwhile tradeoff to make for Agatha. Yeah. It doesn't seem like a perfectly thought out plan. But it was worth it because it was super horny in the lead-up to the mic press. One more big adventure. Agatha's like, what if this is just Switzerland, right? Let's like call a truce. One more big adventure, you and me. Like old times, work and play.

It could be nice. And Rio is running her hand up Agatha's thigh during this exchange. And it's somehow not the sexiest and most charge moment of the episode. That is still to come. It has nothing on gently stroking someone's hair while their back is turned. Woo! All right. Okay.

A shriek splits the air. Teen found the record. And was that you shrieking at home when you saw the thigh rubbing having? It was. It was. Teen put the record on. It's playing backwards. Bad news.

It's the curse. We're cursed now. Everyone's cursed. Oh, no. Terrible. Joe, I, you know, I'm like, oh, you, you hear or see a thing and then you're, this thing's horror movie to me, but I can't handle a horror movie. So you tell me what this. Yeah, you've essentially written something, something to ring in here. I support that.

I support that. I think there's a ring, but music. I don't know. I think especially like the way that we saw Rio appear, you mentioned the Wanda Vision, a multivisible, a multi-person madness comp, but it's also very like crawling out of the TV ring moment. Yeah. I was wondering if maybe because it's playing in reverse, there's two things going on.

One, the playing in reverse is very clear invocation of the like 1970s satanic panic sort of era when there was this idea from Christian conservatives that rock bands were putting demonic messages into records if you play the backwards, it will hear a demonic message.

and, you know, your Paul is Dead sort of Beatles sort of stuff you prefer. Right. But also I was wondering if like maybe an interesting idea is this, like, if Lorna's ballad played forward sung by the, was it 40 million records sold, all the people who listen to it, if that is protection, is playing it in reverse literally undoing it? are you unspooling the production that that song offered? That was sort of my best interpretation. Yeah. Yeah. As the metronome begins to tick.

So this is the clock. We don't have a literal beeping kitchen clock in this stuff. I know what is just like sitting around slurping down a Rioja while the metronome tick. Rio's laughing. She's loving it. And Agatha calls her a tourist. Now, that felt particularly. potentially significant?

Like, did you take that as just a jab as just a shot? Like, we didn't invite you to be in our coven. You don't belong here. You're not, you don't get to be a member of the team. Or as a more perhaps literal, uh, insight again, into her role, who she is and what that means for her ability to be a part of the coven, to be a part of this quest or not.

I think it's the latter. I don't think she is a great witch. I don't know. We'll see. But, like, she's not, she's certainly not under the same, like, I mean, if we, if we think she's death, she's not under, like, the bolder of the rules of the road. You know, she's not going to have the same consequences of the road that these other women do. You know, and when you see her do stuff, like, playing the drums in the band, it's like, she's doing it because she wants to not because she needs to, like, save herself from some, like, shrieking herpy, you know? So, right.

It's interesting. Right. All of a sudden, Joe. Mm-hmm. Alice feels lighter. Not Lillia. She's on fire. She's smoking.

No flames, but a lot of smoke, plumes of smoke. She's sizzling. She's crackling. And Alice takes Rio's dagger and uses it to draw this protection charm circle.

She'll do the same shortly for Jen. If we think that Rio is death, does using death's own tool to draw this protection, spell. It's another reason undermine it, make it more powerful. Well, it's another reason I'm like, because I'm wondering if Jen and Lilia walk out of

here with, with more protection than Alice has. You know? Right. Agatha and Teen have plot armor protection. Main character energy protection. But like Jen and Lilia and Alice all seem on like equally dispensable, not that I feel that way,

but plot might feel that way, like playing field. but Alice may be more vulnerable because she doesn't have that protection drawn around her inside of this episode. I like to say when she says I feel lighter, I like this idea, we get the marks, the burn marks. And you have a lot of really great ideas about that, but I just think of them as like claw marks

of a devil, a demon literally sitting on your shoulder and weighing you down your entire life. And that's the burn, the burn of the talons, like on your shoulders. and the mark of the sort of like mark of the beast kind of thing, which I really like. Also, Lillia, riding on the floor here in pain. But in episode two, right before they go into the road, we get one of those like many trans dispatches. And Lillia says, get it off me. That seems to me like it was from this moment.

She traveled back in time from episode four to episode two and said, get it off me. Like, I mean, she could be talking about something else that comes at her. Could be the mascara. the wick. Who knows? It looked heavy on the lower islands. I'm just saying. I was surprised it didn't like run down her face when she was crying about the tapestries

earlier. Yeah, water resistant and heat resistant. Impressive. Honestly. Yeah. What a brand deal. Oh, man. But yes, I love that, that she was referring to the weight of the curse.

The marks to me, I love everything you're saying. The marks to me looked like, because we were, you're referring to, you know, the marks to me looked like, because we do see the winged demon, like, oh, is this this sprouting out of you, marking you for this fate? And I just am always thinking, you know, of the now because Mephisto is so, we're so Mephisto-pilled in the Jack Schaefer verse. Like, it just makes me think, you know, a fallen angel down to hell. You're thinking about Sauron, aren't you?

Always. Always. Always. Always. Always. is teens like what's the next step? Yeah. Smudge sticks.

Salt bath. Entire intact jars of petroleum jelly. Finding the witch who cast the curse and trying to reason with her. And Agatha says it's very interesting and like poetic thing about how once vengeance is loose, you can't reel it back in. But it did make me wonder just teen asking that like, oh wait, what is the origin of this curse, right? Who is the witch who put this curse on the family in the first place? I think, are we going to get these answers? Are we going to learn who that witch is? Are we going to

learn the identity of the man who bound Jen? Do you think those answers will be coming? I mean, I think we have to learn more about what happened with Lilia. And since Lilia's thing is so directly connected to death, like, do you think these answers are already in the credits? Just like young Lilia? It's like so embarrassing. I think that I like the idea that Rio was somehow there for all of that. in one way or another. Death, timeless. But not like eternity.

That's a different cosmic entity. So, Marvel. Love it. Love it. The burning hits Jen. She gets the circle. She does not leave that circle. Let me note when everyone else runs to help team.

What are you living in that circle now? Demarit. Is that what I get to say? Oh, that's a good Agatha. You've got the snark down. the camera starts to swirl, mimicking the flight of the demon. They're scrambling to try to identify

what is this record that we smashed on the floor. And it is, no surprise. Like, what else would it be? Are we kidding? Are we new? Lorna's version of the ballad. Now, Alice tells them, like, I didn't think this was real.

Devastating. Oh, this was so heart-reaching. She says, like, everything that has ever happened to me from losing a job to my mother's death, I just thought was my fault. I didn't think that this was real. And so simultaneously, you have what I imagine would be for Alice,

this relief that comes from this clarity that this was actually a thing pursuing them, right? It wasn't just talked about how her mom wasn't well. Like it wasn't in her head. But also then the horror, right, of knowing that this is, it is actually in pursuit of you now. Like you are actually up next. I like this though because, you know, it reminds me of this.

I mean, what's so fascinating is like, Agatha, again, for all of her self-centeredness and all of, we talked about this when it came to Jen and sort of like, he bound you, but he didn't take your knowledge. He didn't take everything from you. And similar here where it's like, this is what we have to do

to fight this literal demon that's on your shoulders. And again, Agatha is doing it out of self-interest. but she's also the one who was unlocking the grip of trauma on all of these women as they as they go through these trials. And I think that is like, you know, we're going to get to in theory corner sort of like a little bit more of an involved idea about this. But this idea of her as like a natural leader, even though she doesn't like see herself that way or want that. But like is quite good at it. And so, you know, these women who have just been. and like beaten down by these things that have happened to them

are now liberated, unbound. The demons off your back, like, let's go, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I did find it very striking in this episode in contrast to last episode. You know, we get the little like no cheating this time. Oh, more earlier in the episode. But Agatha spends all of episode three trying to avoid and evade and hide.

And like she is such an active leader of this charge. To your point, that felt like such a notable evolution. for her in a relatively speaking short span of time. And I like what you're identifying, that self-interest and this boon and an opening of a portal of a different sort that she is able to provide not only for herself, but the other members of the coven, a forging of this coven and this fellowship, even if she didn't actively seek that from the start, that they're not, not mutually exclusive. We're watching both of those things happen in Tand.

It's what she did for Wanda in Wanda Vision. The episode was a therapy episode. She's like, let me walk you through your trauma, you know? This is like what she does. Great episode of television. Wonderful. Fantastic stuff. Speaking of things that Agatha is showing us about herself,

whether she is maybe ready to admit to herself how she is feeling or not, teen gets cursed here. He's in the grip of the curse. Hulled through the glass, he'll pick up a little death shard here, though he won't notice it for some time. remarkable pain tolerance from teen, Agatha panics. She screams. She runs after him.

And her concern, it's instinctual, right? Like, it's reflex. Yeah. And the care, like, obviously we talked last episode about how she immediately reached out to stop him from drinking the poisoned wine, wanting to protect him from that. Same thing here. Like, this bond that they're forging, and we're going to talk about, you know, some lovely conversations and scenes later in the episode.

there's no conscious thought here. She wants teen to be okay. She doesn't want harm to befall teen. Very notable to watch. And obviously we have a lot of Nikki Scratch stuff to talk about. And we'll circle back to that in a couple scenes down the road. We should note that this is the second, per your point, this is the second time that teen has bled for one of these tests.

That's right. And the first one, he gets a slash across the palm. Now he's got this like shard of glass. the abdomen. So, you know, just on, I'm just on slash watch, I guess. It's a great observation. Yeah. Jeez. 14. He's, as always making the best of a grim situation. He's like, am I, is my initiation? You know, am I part of the coven now? Burdens and blessings alike. I think Lillia says not a lot of blessings. I have this group. Also, like, he's not part of the coven. Um, and this idea of him is like pet as familiar as, you know, and then as as sacrifice.

interesting. I don't have all the answers. I just have some questions. Well, you're about to have something else. Jam sash? Jam session. Our favorite podcast? Yes.

Check out. Follow jam session on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Agatha realizes what they have to do. They have to sing Lorna's version of the ballot. All sides point to a jam session. And Alice is actively objecting to this. She's like, we already did that. We sang the ball to open the road.

And teen, an enthusiast, a musical enthusiast, right? This is always the Lorna's version's on a Spotify wrapped and everything. So, like, her version is different. Well, what was Lorna seeking on the road, Agatha asked. And Rio, who in many stretches of this episode, is a passive observer of what they are doing as a group, chimes in here. To save her daughter. Now, as we track our is Rio death question mark theory corner of fodder bits, across this, this pod,

this question of like, does Rio know, like actually, specifically know that because she as death has been deprived of Alice by Lorna's protection is a tantalizing to consider.

This is another question I had is like, are all of these women overdue in some way because they all have these extended lifespans? Lorna is only by like a, sorry, Alice is only by a few years, you know, because of her mom's protection, but like,

Jen is centuries old. Lillia is centuries old. Like, how long is it we're supposed to live? I don't know. I don't have the answer. Just more questions. Well, we've got an answer coming right here. Agatha is putting the pieces together.

She's solving the riddle. You should have burnt to a crisp years ago, but here you are. She says to Alice, sullen and endless but alive. Iconic stuff from Agatha Harkness now and always. This is so funny. That's because at any given moment, somewhere, someone is playing that song and that that you hate so much. Lorna's ballad is a protection spell.

It protected you. Lily Potter, welcome to the chat. I just want to say that even I was watching this with my friend Diana and even Diana who is not Harry Potter filled at all was like, okay, Lily Potter. Yeah, I mean, this is so Lily Potter. It's like unbelievable.

But it's also, in addition to the idea of like the mother's love and the mother's sacrifice as protection, it is in your very skin. There's also, again, that idea of fellowship through and protection through fellowship and community because the idea that all of these other people, it's not just what Lorna has done, it's how what Lorna has done

has touched all of these other people and enrich their lives and then they carry on that protection for her and for Alice, which is really a lovely idea. I think it's interesting to connect this thematically to Wanda and like her boys and how that might be connected or Agatha and potentially like Nikki,

like this idea of like a mother's protection, how, yes, how that might unite a bunch of women in this particular case. Also, we got an email from our listener Jean-Michel, which could not be more me-coded in the slightest. It is titled The Witchless Dad,

and I was like, I've never faster been like, click on an email in my life. Jean-Michel wrote in the book to the Vampire Chronicles, Lestat being the antagonist, Brat Prince that he is, purposely writes lyrics, he's the Brat Pins.

I can't wait for you to get an interview of the vampire. That's his name, the Brat Prince, Lestat. I love it. Great stuff. Being the antagonist, Brat Prince that he is,

purposely writes lyrics to his songs that call out secret vampire lore and name specific vampires. His band also becomes enough of a pop sensation that millions of fans around the world are playing and singing his songs every day, which almost like his bell,

wakes the first vampire, Akasha, Queen of the Damned, book three, which isn't a real one-to-one, but I felt like there might have been a nod to it. I ran this past, once again, Diana, my witch expert, and she knows the vampire chronicles, the books a bit better than I do. And she, no, actually was true, she's seen the movie The Queen of the Damned and I have not. And she was just sort of like, I wouldn't exactly call this spell. It's more like, Lestat gets enough people to sing, but it's like a very loud alarm clock that wakes

up a sleeping vampire. And I was just sort of like, I don't know. I think the idea is similar that like the power of many voices raised in unison invoke something magical, something that you aren't supposed to be able to accomplish. And certainly something you could not accomplish alone with just your voice. So everyone who's excited for the Listat rock star season, which is the upcoming season three of Interview of the Vampire.

Oh, man. What a time to be you. I'm so excited. So excited. What a time to be you. But Diana's point was like that it's not just list out that this is more like a trope. idea of like song as spellwork is like an old sort of witchcraft idea, sure.

And so then I thought about like Hocus Pocus because there's a sequence in Hocus Pocus at the at the Halloween dance where Bette Midler gets up on stage and sings, I put a spell on you and she gets a whole room to start singing the words of the spell with her and put themselves under a trance essentially. Controversially I don't love Hocus Pocus as a film. but that's maybe one of my worst which takes that I have. It's a very unpopular take. I like it fine.

I just don't like it as a, we have to watch it every year kind of movie. But, I mean, the comp is there and how could you resist Pocus Pocus and invocation if you're watching the show? And then also, Buffy Vampire Slaters here with us always. Once more with feeling the Buffy musical,

this idea of like, at the end, Buffy is, there's a musical episode at the end, Buffy is like trying to fight a demon with song and her watcher, her mentor says like, Anya Tara,

she needs backup and they like go up and like start to sing with her. And it just becomes this sort of like, yeah, and that just ties in so beautifully to this idea of coven and shared power, like a shared wellspring of power and all these people have to tap in together in order to create.

the juice that you need. So, yeah. Sounds also like a band, and it is time. Thank you. To assign musical instruments. Agatha just wants someone to play the fucking piano. Lilia, can we interest you?

No, no. I studied the zils in a little band flute. Jen? Bel-A. Yeah. Remarkable stuff. Teens like I can play some guitar. We get in our positions,

and they begin. And as soon as they do, Agatha starts to sizzle. And she orders something to plow on. Now again, like we were talking about a few minutes ago, part of this is like cold calculus, the logic. She knows if the song is the protection spell that the best way to actually save herself

is to carry on. But just the fact that Agatha is willing even for a moment to suffer pain so that they all will be okay, does feel meaningful, like a less selfish and more selfless or both of those things at once. least version of Agatha.

They jam out. You sure do. Paddleupon on the Zills and then the Maracas and also the triangle is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Our listener Grayson pointed out that this might be a reference to Padalupon in this production of Sweeney Todd, this iconic production she did of Sweeney Todd many years ago, where they all played their own instruments. She played the tuba and like a couple of, I think it's one of those productions.

similar to when we we watched Lord of the Rings musical and they were sort of picking up instruments in the midst of the action like, you know, the idea of switching, picking up multiple instruments and stuff like that. I also was wondering if the Zills

because, you know, Zills are often associated with like, Diana is also an accomplished belly dancer so she was like, oh, the Zills, the belly dancing symbols. And, you know, Lilia in the comics is a Romani sort of figure. So I didn't know if that was like

supposed to be really, to that as well. I thought Catherine Hahn's Stevie Nix or Daisy Jones her impression when she like lifts her gauzy sort of like cape up that's like a classic

Stevie Nix look and yeah just thinking about just seeing the pussycats as always something I didn't mention when I mentioned Sabrina the Sabrina

comics earlier Nicholas Scratch is a character in the Sabrina comics just something to think about our guy Nikki always welcome always well is he

that's the devil I don't know I would like to go on record on this podcast and say, The Devil is not always welcome on this podcast. Mallor, what do you want to say about the contrast between Lorna's lyrics and the original valid lyrics? Yeah. First of all, this was a jam.

It sounded great. The snippet that we picked for the top of the pod today, I was like, let's go. I mean, they were rocking out at that point. Really great. You know, if you kind of just do a side by side of the lyrics, like there are, are many similar identical even lines. And then there are lines that have the same kind of idea and concept in some of the same language, but like a slight reworking and reframing.

But the thing that we, and we see why and understand the reasons for this, the thing about Lorna's ballot is just that it is so personal. Even like you just look at the first line from the ballad that we heard in episode two to open the road, seekest thou the road to all that's foul and fair. This is like a broad general invite or direction. And what's the first line of this? I have learned the lesson. Like it is this twist and play on the ballad that stems from one person's love and one person's loss

and one person's desire to protect. And like that stretch that we picked for the opening, the blood and tears and bone, which again, blood and tears and bone is part of the other ballot too. But then we go into, yeah, Mother Made and Crone. And here it's like together and alone, if I can't reach you at my soul. song teach you, just the intimacy of it. And how this thing that is, again, shared by all and amplified and heightened by many people partaking in it together stems from the relationship between a mother and a daughter.

I just thought it was really lovely. They did a great job of conveying that through the tiny tweaks in the construction of the song. I can't teach you let my song reach you. Once again, reminding me, you know, when I was talking about the ballad. If I can't hold you, remember what I told you? That sounds nice. When I was thinking about the Lopez is, Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez,

who don't do the score, but do the, like, these songs that are in both Wanda Vision and Agatha all along. And did the songs for Frozen and how the lullaby from the mother in Frozen too is this instruction for her daughters after she's dead. And this is very similar where it's just sort of like, if I can't reach you,

let my song teach you. Like after I'm gone, let this, my voice, like linger to guide you and teach you. Absolutely beautiful. Protect you. Yeah.

And especially too, because like the way that Alice talked to teen last episode when he asked about her tattoo, which also was something that Lorna, like, wanted her to have for protection. It was almost like there was this taint to it that we could sense from Alice, right?

Like she wasn't well. She made me do this. She thought it was going to help. And then you feel like the, I don't know, like the generosity and the need as well behind the song. And I think like the other thing, it was just like, you know, the, we talked a lot about in the second episode, the, the line, I hold death's hand in mine, right? I stray not from the path.

I hold death's hand in mind. Now, that's interesting to think about a new with the Rio theories, certainly. But like that feels like a, that's a different energy than repeating the only way we survive time and time again in Lorna's version. And that's interesting to think about because the idea of a protection fell and evading something, it gets back to this question of like, well, if the only way out is through, should they be trying to evade and avoid death? Does there need to be an acceptance in order to move forward? I definitely, I think, like which of those is actually right? I think there's a way to accept death without dying yourself. We can talk about that a little bit later

on. But I do, I mean, I think that's an integral part of the journey here, for sure. Yes. Very like, Peverell brother, again, to Pings Harry for me a bit. Alice, we heard it at the top, right? She sees the demon in full, this like, hideous specter. My God. I hated it. I hated it. Great rack, though, on the, on the Hell demon. Did you notice that? Didn't you? I did. I mean, I noticed that it. I mean, I noticed that it had a rack. But I wasn't like, check out the rack on that scary snarling. I don't know.

Great episode of TV for Rex. And Alice says, like, I can kill it, right? There's that confidence. You didn't think the curse was real. You have to confront that it is. And then you have to quickly make your way through acceptance to combating. But we did cut during the ballad to teen. who has a cut. There's a shard of glass in his body. By the way, the first time I watched it,

I didn't, like, I couldn't tell what was happening. I don't know. Same. I thought his like belt I know. And I was like, I was like, let's see your mark that to come back to that. And then like, later I was like, as same as that happened to me. I was like, it's like a gleeing, but I thought it was like, I don't know, or his pants lined with aluminum foil. I had no idea what was happening. Wait, on belt buckle watch, I should say. Some people think, I don't know if I agree, but some people think the design on teen's belt buckle looks like the design on the cover of the dark hold. I'm not sure that I agree.

It looks just kind of like some curved and straight line. You know what I mean? But I'm willing to be proved wrong. So I was like, oh no, has the dark old belt buckle activated? What's happening? I also did like how they were using like this, the, you know, the pains of the imagery, which is very comic book, of course,

but also very like 70s aesthetic of this, very like, you know, when we cut to the... Oh, yeah. Man, first a jam session mentioned now this. Dobbins is really with us today. I was talking about the OG Tom. I don't think they do it in the Pierce Bros.

but either way, Thomas Crown Day. Teen's about to die. He fades for blood loss because he just was really committed to performing the piece of... Glass inside of him. Teen, my gosh. God, the celebration ends pretty quickly here because everybody realizes the teen is in peril, and Agatha is genuinely overcome.

Carlos, can we hear this? There's so much fun. What else can we do? What else can we do? He's young. He's strong. Don't. Don't.

What do you need, Jen? What do you need? Jen! Um, uh, water and moonlight. Oh, okay. Hurry. Oh, God. Catherine on.

So they're back on the road. They've taken him through the piano portal. And whether Agatha thinks, we've been theorizing about this last couple of pods, whether she thinks that teen is actually literally her son.

Nikki Scratch. Nicky Scratch. Come back. Or he just reminds her of Nikki and what she lost. The pain and the terror of losing him. That second don't.

Was, oh, okay, so let's talk about the second don't. Because the second don't comes when she turns and looks directly. at Rio. So on our like is Rio death tracker, this is actually to me like close to top of the list.

Number one, honestly for me. Yeah, like beyond the hoods. You're the one who could choose to take him. Beyond the hoods and the side of knife, this is like, this is it. I am asking you, don't do this. And like we're going to hear what Rio says about her scar. And so it's not just don't. Like you might be death. You have the ability to take him or decide not to. Don't do it again. Right? Don't do it again.

Like you did this to me before. Not another one. Not again. Accony. Also, Jen works, the Metro, real looks pains. Not indifferent. She looks pains. Oh, yeah.

Very much so. Very much so. Watching Agatha suffer through this. Joanna, as Jen is swirling the water under the moonlight, we hear Lilia say, Three of Swords. Would you like to take us back to Tarot Card Corner? Oh, it's a tarot reading time.

Okay, listen. Hmm. We know so much more than we did last time we talked about Tarot Corner. because Marvel has released, maybe they had already, but I hadn't seen them, taro promo cards for much but not all of the cast.

You can Google tarot promo card, Agatha all along, and they'll pop up. There are clear card two character analogs for most, but not every member of the Kevin. So Jen, as was mentioned in episode two, is the high priestess. You can see Jen, she's got a scroll that says,

potions on it. Like, that's the high priestess scars. That's her card. Agatha is the three of swords. So Lillia says three of swords here when she's looking at Agatha in anguish. And what the three of swords means is heartbreak emotional pain. And it's like the card image is Agatha in front of a heart with three swords piercing it. The entire coven is depicted on the card, the three of Pentacles. And that is what Lillia said, three of pentacles in episode two when deciding or not to write down the names of the Coven, to join the Coven, all that sort of stuff like that. She says three of pentacles. So it's this idea of fellowship of bonding and stuff like that. Rios card is the death card. Okay. Yep. Feels notable. Or I should just say this. There's a death card where

death is holding a knife that looks identical to Rio's knife. And in the other hand, she has a heart that is black. So that's just a thing that exists. Okay. Lilia, young Lilia, in her Renaissance era, Sicilian garb, is on the Queen of Cups card. And the Queen of Cups denotes like encouraging, caring, nurturing. We'll get to that immediately after this.

And then last one at least, Now, Alice doesn't have a card and teen doesn't have a card. But there's the tower. And I don't know if the tower is Alice's card, but it's this one, the tower card that Marvel put out as Agatha Promo, shows multiple women falling from a tower on fire. It doesn't look great, honestly. Some trailer images suggest that they're going to a tower at one point.

Does Alice fall here? Who else might fall if there's two women falling? If not, why doesn't Alice have a card? the tower in general means danger crisis, sudden change, destruction, higher learning and liberation. So that has been Tarot Corner. But here, most of all, three of sorts, heartbreak. Agatha's absolute devastation and anguish over what's happening to Teen right here

is what's most important there. I've found this very moving to watch. Yeah. Tarot Corner, TM, Joanna Robinson. And thanks to Marvel for putting those cards out. Lillia being Queen of Cups, encouraging, caring, nurturing. So the water in the shell under the moonlight works.

Yeah. Very Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade, Braille water moment. But Lillia says, Jennifer, look what you did. Which I would say is encouraging, caring, and nurturing. Thanks, Queen of Cups. But yeah, I found this very.

But again, this is the Coven working together as they had to for the fire trial, as they had to for the potions trial, and as they have to right here. Yes. As they had to. Really watching from a remove, but everyone else involved.

Yeah. What a tourist. We're going to our, not the final section of the pod, but the final section of the deep dive, which is today called Kiss. Kiss. Kiss.

Incredible final few minutes of this episode of TV. Really great. They moved teen after healing him. to this bed of leaves to rest. And Agatha does not leave his side until he wakes up. Everyone is sitting. Everyone's bonded by the fire. And she is sitting with tea. And this was like, oh, God, wrenching.

They're sharing stories over by the fire about their lives. This is where we learn. The Jen is an 11th generation root worker that she was a midwife, that she was invited to the obstetrics association of Greater Boston. And this is where she was bound. She says, I still don't know how he did it. Bound me without magic. This was one of the questions we asked.

last week. Like, did he, was this a sorcerer who used magic? Or was it a non-magic user who was able to trap her still? It feels like he blocked his chakra, really. Like, I don't know. Not literally, but like, yeah, he drowned her in doing so, like, blocked something in her without a spell. I thought it was interesting.

I was thinking a lot, one of my dearest friends, Lydia, whose family is from Haiti, has trained in doulo work. and has taught me everything I know about like Dula work and Midwifery and which are not the same. But she was taking this course and she was talking to me very passionately about the fact that like in terms of mortality rates in women and mothers, women of color to this day are disproportionately affected, impacted. And so I thought it was interesting that Sashir Zamata as a black woman, is in this role of like women trying to protect the lives of women from, you know, a health care system that, you know, maybe doesn't care about the life of the mother every, every,

decision that is made here. And I thought that was really interesting and upsetting. Yeah. Deeply upsetting. And it reminds me as well, you know, we spoke in a prior pod about this idea with Jen, with Lilia, that this effort to help, like to help save, to help heal, to help bring into this world would be seen by other people as a threat

and something foul instead of like a gift and a salve to make sure other people were okay. Yeah. They're very, very, very upsetting. Rio. Yeah. She contributes.

She's a scar. Carlos, what does she say here? You guys don't have extra nipples? I'm covered in nipples. You want to see? No, thank you. No, thank you. Before she says this, right,

we just need to note that Lillia once again wants to talk about witches and their stereotypes and how she's sick of it. And I'm like, Lillia, I need you to get another topic of conversation. Yeah. She's hit those three different times, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this feels like now very purposeful, right? And like it has to bear fruit in what we watch Lillia confront. Yeah. And again, like I think her trial is the trial where they're all dressed as like cartoonish, which, you know, the witches from Wizard of Oz, the witch from Snow White, all this sort of stuff, these like stereotypical cartoonish depictions of witches. So it makes sense that that would be associated with Lillia's trial about combating the stereotypes of witches. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Teen, he wakes.

Agatha? Wait, what do you... What do you think of Lillia saying no, thank you to Rio's offer of showing them all of her nipples? Oh, I say yes, please. Right. Okay. Just making sure. Let's do it.

Let's do it. Are you and Lillia enemies for life now? No, I love Lillia. I support Lillia, even if we go about our business on the road slightly differently, I think. But that's okay. The first thing that teen does, Joe, when he wakes, is ask Agatha immediately if she put the sigil on him. And she says no, and she's infathe. about it. But then just as quickly says, like, I actually...

This is wild. You know what? I wouldn't know if I did. Here's what she says. A sigil works on the witch who cast it as well. That's why we don't use them as much. They're super irritating. Teen asks, can it be lifted? And Agatha says, sigils are destroyed, not lifted. And before you ask, oh, in that curious little voice of yours, the answer is when they're no longer needed. And then she pauses, And she looks at him and she says, you don't have to know a person's name to know who they are. My heart just melted watching this. What did you make of all of this?

Okay. This blew the barn doors off of my brain in terms of like what's happening here because we were like, who cast a sigil? We believe there's like either a W or an M on his mouth. Is it Mephisto? Is it Wanda? Is it, you know, Maximoff? Is it like, what is it? And we thought maybe that like Wanda had cast a lot.

it unintentionally, this again, Lily Potter sort of mother's love protection of teen, if teen is indeed like her kiddo, which is a prevalent theory for who teen might be. But Agatha, and I think we came up with that because Agatha called it clumsy earlier. She's like, I didn't do this clumsy little sigil thing. Like, wasn't me. Right. And so we were like, oh, accidental magic. But what if instead it was teen who put the sigil on because, and it was clumsy because he doesn't really quite know what he's doing. He has only his little moleskin of a notebook of inspiration, like doesn't know all the ins and outs. So he put a little sigil on himself, he wouldn't know. He wouldn't know that he had done it because of this rule we just learned that if you cast a sigil,

maybe you cast a sigil. And I was like, wow, maybe teen did it. That makes a lot of sense to me. And like, I love that. I like this idea that like team put the sigil on himself as a means of protection going into whatever it is he's trying to accomplish here in Westview. Would destroying the sigil unleash him knowing much more about who he is, who his real mom is, what Agatha's role and everything is, all that sort of stuff. Like, what does he know, like, based on the troubling looks he gave to Jen when Jen was talking about Agatha's reputation? And, like, what doesn't he know because he's blocked that knowledge via his own sigil work?

I don't know, but I'm intrigued. I love that. Brilliant. It feels right. It feels right. Yeah. And then like having Agatha and Teen bond and be free to bond. Yes.

Without the burden of whatever. Only for the sigil to be broken and him to be like, wait a fucking man. Yeah. Boy, that's going to be painful if that is in fact what happens, deeply painful. And there's already a lot of heartache here because we have teen wondering who he is. And we have Agatha wondering that too, like thinking about what's going through both of their. their minds and what they're both bringing to this. Either she thinks that this is her son

or just he really reminds her of her son. It's a second chance. It is awoken something in her regardless. And like obviously we're going to get to the moment shortly where Rio gets to this directly.

But this is clearly pulling on Agatha in a real, real, real way. Now that he's up, Agatha does go over to the fire. to join the witches, and this is where they're trading stories about their battle scars, their wounds.

And this is where Lillia then, like, kind of drifts into the trans state again. She's talking about her vampire bite. What did you make of this little mini-trans dispatch, Joe? I think we got another full circle one. She says, you know, we really kind of hate each other in the beginning, but now dot, dot, dot, dot, and drifts off.

And everyone's like, but now what, Lillia, where did you go? Right. Okay, so let me complete the sentence from you, from a line, with a mini trans dispatch from episode three. She says, you know, we really kind of hate each other again. But now, from episode three, I love you guys. Which is what she said during the toast in a way that we were like,

this feels weird the way she's saying it. So I think that's just another completion here. So I think we've seen two, you know, and we'll see them as we go along. That's my guess. Yeah. Incredible. But I thought to your point, good information to see the other side. Like she doesn't realize that she just went back to like, you know,

toasting wine in the huge tiny little lines. sounds like. Yeah, and you know, we had that conversation last week when they were when, when, um, Lillia and Agatha were collecting the, the, the, the Kale care cartons in the bathroom. And Agatha kind of like, and again, they were on the clock, but like didn't remark upon Lillia saying to her like, save Agatha. And so it felt notable and important and good that Jen was like, oh, Lily, where do you go? Like that they are actually, and I'm remarking upon this and noting this and that that, it feels like that will become something that they're like, wait, we need to drill down on this a little bit more. at some point. I have to say. Time and again, Jen is the one who was Johnny on the spot noticing things. That's not a real green witch. Who the hell is this teenager? What's

going on here? What are you doing? Where did you go, Lilia? So, like, that's Jen seems to be part of Jen's role here is, you know, observer, truth teller sort of thing. Great stuff. Rio's ready to participate yet again. She has a scar. This is after

Agatha shares her scar. Sorry. And she sits down right next to Rio. gives them the little knitting needle on the elbow. Okay, so we're about to get like a more overt confirmation of their connection. But there is such excellent silent work in the way that Agatha just sits so close to Rio. And the way she says like, you want to know, I got these scars right. She like starts to roll up her like, you know, her sleeve. And Rio's kind of smirking.

Like she knows what's coming. She knows exactly what's going to be. She knows what the scar is. She knows the story. I love this. I thought this was great, too. Also, two doomed lovers sitting on a log together and making their connection themselves to each other.

Oh, God. Beautiful stuff. Carlos, can we hear what Rio says? I've got a scar. I do. Yes, I do. A long time ago, I loved someone. And I had to do something that I did not want to do,

even though it was my job. And it hurt them. She is my scar. I'll just stretch my leg. She is my scar. Are you kidding me? Unbelievable. And the way she said that I did not want to do,

like she seemingly seems very clear that she is describing needing to claim and take Nikki. Yes. And the pain that this caused AgaSel. And also the slight like recrimination in even though it was my job. Like I did not want to do it even though it was my job. Like because. taking Nikki, claiming him as death or whatever you prefer,

had to take Nikki from Agatha, didn't want to do it, even though it was my job and it's so clear that Agatha blames her. Shirley begged her not to when she had to do it. And she says, even though it was my job, like I had no choice. But I got blamed and I got, and she hid herself from me.

Right. For decades, maybe because of this. I was thinking back watching these, these sequences at the end of the episode between them to... Do you remember why you're mad at me? You're what you hate me? Yes. And just the way that they sat across from each other

in the lounger chair and the couch and the way that they looked at each other, even though Agatha was still in her, like, trapped Agnes state then that there was something so deep and visceral and almost like cellular about their connection that draw to each other. Oh, man. I was really like to that I've got a star.

No, you don't. was like this, again, Rio knows exactly where Agatha's knitting needle scar is, right? Because she's seen it. And Agatha, I think the implication here is seen all of Rio's naked body and knows that there's not a single scar on there. Perhaps also because she is a death immortal. But like, you know, it also would know if she had a scar. When will they see each other naked again? for asking, let's go to the final sequence of the episode. Agatha walks away, Rio follows. Lillia does

quickly stop Rio and says, basically, I remember. I haven't forgotten what we heard you say about claiming our body. It's good to know that that is something that they have carried forward with them. It would be hard to forget. And we are then treated to this just absolutely exquisite sequence. Agatha is standing with her back toward Rio. Rio walks up to her, and she just, gently. Like this is a true lover's caress moment. Rubs her hair, rubs her back. Agatha moans.

And she turns around and she runs her hands through Rio's hair. And then just like, they wrap themselves up in each other. And it is, it's not just a hug. It is this like desperate embrace. They're trying to like almost melt into each other. These are two people who love each other and want each other

and haven't been able to like, hold each other like this for so long. There you are. Touch. And then Agatha like calps Rio's face and looks at her and looks at her lips and leans in for the kiss. And we're like, and then Rio stops her. I loved that. She says, Agatha, that boy isn't yours. I loved this so much for a million different reasons.

one of my friends who loves a show and is queer sent me a tweet that she saw where someone was like what it feels like to finally like not be queer baited but actually like because you know there's this

you know in the sort of like queer read of you know the various fictional things that we consume that don't have overt queer narratives but people you know find them where they

representation where they may there's this off repeated phrase of like there's no straight explanation for this which is just like a fun way to just be like, this has to be gay. There's no straight like, there's no, but literally, there's no straight explanation for this.

This is, you know, clear as can be and on Disney Plus, good job, guys. You're very late to the party, but you're welcome nonetheless. Yes. But this was electric. I love this, this like, I need you to know the truth. I need you to not think that I have brought your child back to you or something like that. before you kiss me. Because when you kiss me,

I want you to be doing it with your eyes full open to what's going on here. Yeah. I love this. It was to be pulled out of that, like us's viewers, to feel like that, that hitch,

like Agatha must be feeling in that moment where these words from Rio, because again, like think of where she is with Rio at just the beginning of this episode. Think of the fight, the harrowing fight that we saw, between them.

Like she is sliding into her own desire here and her like need, not just her want, her need to be with this person. And then hearing that from Rio, it just pulls her back out of it into not only this different headspace, but into their history, right? Like into whatever happened between them with Nikki. And so whether Rio means he's not. literally your son, Nikki, don't allow yourself to think this, or he's not yours to save, or he's not yours to view as a stand in this way, whatever, like, actually, literally she means,

the effect on Agatha is the same. This was just really, really compelling to watch. Like, these two are great together. Their chemistry together is, like, just absolutely crackling. And I love what you're saying about needing to make sure that they're are speaking the truth to each other to what you were calling back to a minute ago of like, do you even remember why you hate me? Do you remember what pain feels like?

We have to peel back all of those remaining layers. So then the only thing left is what they're caring for each other and the truth, right? And then what's it going to feel like when they can finally lean into that? And hopefully that's the choice they're able to make. If not, it's going to be very sad.

But this is just really amazing to watch. Eight, nine, how long do we have to wait? Yeah, that feels like, And the finale is airing, we're getting two episodes in the final week, right? Eight and nine together. Yeah. So I do, that does feel right. Maybe seven.

Ooh. I don't know. All right. Okay. Theory Corner. We hit a lot of this already, Joe. What do you want to hit that we haven't covered yet? Anything else on the Israel death front that you want to add to the evidence we've already cited?

Um, uh, uh, uh, um, I mean, I'll once again note that she wears a hood in this episode and she wore her hood in the first episode. I think when this theory first, like really started to gain traction, I was like, how could I have missed that fucking hood? She's just like, she's wearing a cloak. Are you kidding me? Also, I sent this to you over the weekend or the end of last week at some point. Our listener Ellen sent in this email about, I did not put these audio clips together.

so you'll just have to do your legwork yourself. But she mentioned that when the character, death is interested in the television, introduced in the television series Supernatural, a show that I have merely dabbled in and I'm not an expert in, when he rolls up sort of famously, they play this cover version of the traditional song,

Oh, Death, the song O Death that I know best from the soundtrack for O Brother Where Art thou? But that that song, the cover of that song plays It starts with these like three really ominous, juicy notes that is not in the, Oh, Brother We're Out There version, because that's Acapella. So I listened to many versions of this song to see like how prevalent it was. Anyway, it is a, it is fairly common,

but this cover that appeared in Supernatural is like kind of famous among, certainly among supernatural fans. Those three notes, you agreed with me? Yeah, yeah. Per Ellen's email. play when Rio first sort of breaks down the door into Agatha's house and stomps in in that

sort of hooded costume knife out so in episode one. So we played them side by side. I could hear it. That's really fun if they played O'Deth when Rio walks in delightful.

But also this idea of accepting death as part of Agatha's journey. We've got all these hints So, like, what if she is Lady Death? One of the lyrics from the Ballet of the Witches wrote is I hold Death's hand in mind. And that could just be, like, death, my cutie, my girl, my best babe. Bay. I hold her hand in mind. But also this idea of accepting death, like, accepting death as part of Agatha's journey on the road, accepting the literal death.

Like, Nikki's gone, accepting the death of her child as a thing that has happened and is irreversible. because this idea of like how did how did she get a hold of the dark hold in the first place? Did she lose Nikki because she made a bad bargain? She wanted the dark hold, a bargain with Mephisto, let's say. Wanted the dark hold or one of more power

and didn't realize that she was giving up Nikki in the bargain. And then Rio as death, Rio was already her girlfriend has to like claim her son and it's horrible and painful for everyone involved. Right, bound by the magic of the bargain. Yeah. Right.

Was that in order to get the dark hold? Or did the dark cold acquisition come later? Or did her like messing with the dark cold as it was the case with Wanda? With Wanda. To do with her wanting to resurrect her son. And so accepting that she can't is that part of this whole thing. Is her whole reason to walk the road? I mean, part of it is she thinks teen might be Nikki,

but is it to like try to bring Nikki back? And is the decision she's going to have to make at the end? to really realize, to literally embrace death and realize that something's end and, you know, you have to let them go. And then like that feels like this beautiful, thematically rich place to build toward, but then you have like the, well, wait, but if this is, if teen is in fact, Billy Kaplan, if he's Wiccan, if he's Wanda's son reincarnated. Yeah.

And teen saying like, can't replace people. And it's like, well, if he's like, if he's another Billy, then is that. going to be a backslide for Agatha. It's like, wait, why did... How does Billy get to come back? Yeah. Got another go, you know? Yeah.

Or, like, will she have had enough of a breakthrough to be able to then, like, welcome and accept that without seeking it for herself? Like, how will that selfishness and self-interest play? I think that's interesting because, like, the other, like, major thing that I think we're really pointing towards is this idea that, like, at the end of the road, Agatha is going to have to choose between something she wants for herself. and something is for the greater good of the coven, something that has to do with like,

the greater good, thank you. And I like, I think, I think that everyone's going to die. I think everyone is going to die. Yeah. This kind of goes against my whole, like, have to accept that death happens or like whatever,

but maybe it wasn't their time. I don't know. But like to bring the coven back, to make the decision to bring the covenant back rather than get whatever it is she needs or wants. And in doing so, that's the only thing, like, them all together. As has been proven again and again on this journey so far,

they have to do it all together or it doesn't work, that she will make the choice to bring them all back. In this episode, when Rio says, who is he, why is he here, the teen? Yeah. I guess just trying to deflect, but she says, many hands. Many hands mate like work is what that phrase is, this idea of like we need all of these people together

in order to get what we need to have done. This, like, when she's play acting for the covenant, she says, hey, that's my coven you're talking about. I'm not that kind of witch anymore. But, like, if that's really the journey that she has to go on. The beginning of this episode, she says about Mrs. Hart, Sharon, sorry, Sharon. Of course the road killed her. More power for the rest of us.

But, like, if the flip side of that has to be her journey and all of this. and the power of like the three of pentacles as this card of like, and the idea beyond that of like coven true versus coven two. Coven true, a true coven, a community of women who are for the good of the community. And I just think it's really interesting. There's a moment from the trailer,

this is theory fodder so we can overanalyze trailer shots, right? Love it. Jen is crawling up from a lawn in well. Westview. So like a question I have is about like, you know, if she can resurrect the Coven and they come up from the road into Westview where some kind of showdown is happening, there's that line from the opener inside of the Marra Vestown parody where Agatha speaking to Rio in character still says like, it's always about these town, this specific town, these specific people, you know, like something like that. Yeah. So like,

what is Westview have to do with it? What do these people have to do with it? And like, how is this all going to come together? So if Alice dies, let's say a few trials down the road, but not, you know, in an earlier episode, this idea of wherever it may been, I'll see you at the end, I'll see you at the end, like Alice coming back after dying earlier, Jen coming back after dying earlier, Lillia coming back, dying earlier. I just really like all of that.

And especially if we go back to Into the Woods, which I hope. always want to. Into the Woods ends with this found family sort of effort of these characters who have nothing to do each other, but have lost all the people that are part of their little pack and they have to form their own

new little pack. And this song that is very important at the end of the musical, right before the battle, there is a battle at the end of Into the Woods, right before the final battle is no one is alone. Someone is on your side, no one is alone. And it's about like, you know, you have to find your family, find your community. And

And that's the only way you'll make it through whatever this is. So the idea that Agatha came out the other side of her first road trial without her son, without her girlfriend, alone with her power, the power that she leeches from other people, rather than shares other people, without her child, without her girlfriend, alone. And has to, on the other side of this fine community, whether Agatha survives this show or not, I don't know. Like, it's possible that she's done so much ill that she needs to sacrifice herself for something. But I think this, this idea of like community, the communal good has to be the lesson for her here.

Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. And also her finding that in a place that Wanda trapped her. Yeah. You know? It's like, sorry, Tina. It couldn't have been Brooklyn or a yacht or someplace.

Cool. It did actually. Well, I'm not have to be West. Because you learn the lesson through your mistakes, right? in confronting your mistakes and the people obviously Wanda made some mistakes in Westview too.

And Wanda coming to grips with in a better version of Wanda story. Wanda coming to grips with Vision's death and what all of that means and letting these people that she's trapped in the hex goes means a breakthrough of a kind for her.

Marvel went another direction. They decided to make it a horrible backslide for her. But I like this idea that like Jack Schaefer, who sort of like started that story, gets to sort of conclude it with a different witch, you know? Yeah, the lesson of how grief and love are entwined and where that leads you moving forward.

I love that. Any other theory corner stuff you want to hit? If we're on Ozwatch. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who is the wizard that we're, who's at the end of the road, who's going to give us our heart, our home, our brain, the nerve? And could it be, sorry, could it be?

could be anyone other than Mephisto. I mean, it's got to be Mephisto, right? I mean, I will say if Rios' death, like death and Mephisto in one show is a lot, that's like, that's two big things that we've been waiting for. Have we been waiting for death? I mean, I guess, I guess, sure. When Zanos cropped up, we're like,

are they going to do death? But then it didn't really seem like it made a lot of sense in the context of, it felt too witchy to put, like, The manifestation of death in the Avengers story. So I don't know. I think Jack Schaefer can't resist putting Mephisto. I mean, I hope so. I don't know.

I really hope so. I love it. Okay. Easter eggs. Joe, did you have a favorite from this episode? Was it the Daughters of Liberty mention? What do you want to say about the Daughters of Liberty? Was it the Alice mentions?

The Alice mentions there are so many. The Flewitwood Mac poster? I mean, Stevie Nix being here. I mean, we mentioned the Steve Nix impression, but Stephen Nix who wrote a wonderful song about a witch called Riannon, a wonderful, by the way, I once had a co-worker years ago. He had a baby.

He named his baby Rianan. And I was like, oh, like the Fleet with Maxon. And he was like, no, like the ancient Welsh, you know, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, well, get ready for a lot of people to say, oh, like the fleet of Maxxon. But Stevie Nix, if people haven't watched American Horror Story, Colin Coven that season, the witch season of American Horror Story,

Stevie Nix shows up as like a literal witch. Like, it's a whole thing. I would say, I want to say visually, because you're trying to sort of vibe in the like 1970s horror film space, the film Susperia, the original Suspira from the 1970s, which is about a Coven of Witches, is definitely invoked. here, but also I was thinking a lot about, there's this

2016 movie called The Love Witch, which even though it was made in 2016 was shot to look like a 1970s, sort of like, a lot of vasseling on the lens and like weird, like, whip pans and all this sort of stuff like that. So I just like, I really liked the visual language

of the genre that they were playing with inside this episode. How about you? Delightful. I've not seen that film. I think my favorite is red-haired woman. That's a track on the record when they piece the record back together. and we get to see some of the tracks. Just always nice when Wanda makes her presence felt in the episode.

That was great stuff. There's also a track called Flick of the Wrist, which of course is like a great little like wand motion track, but it's an actual queen song. So I'm like curious if we'll ever get to hear Lorna Wu's cover of Flick of the Wrist. I would love to. Dare to Dream. From dreams to nightmares, take us to wigwash.

Do you wear weeks? In brief. Patti Lippon and Joe Locke. you should sue over what happened to you inside of this episode. It's tough stuff. So, yeah, Joe has signaled out the 80s episode, and if you've seen promo, which is from that, he's got like a kind of long, curly, shaggy, mullet-y sort of thing.

It's pretty fun. I'm excited for that one. Delightful. Some, like, like, we're talking like some like Billy and Stranger things kind of hair? But even like more lustrous and he's got a, to fuel your, is he Billy Kaplan question? A blue headband. I mean,

which is quite wicked of him. So, yeah. If he is wicking, when will we find that out? What's the sigil drops? You know? When will that be?

I know it's like, episode eight or nine, I would say. Boy, all right. Joe, we did it. Anything else? No.

Ferry's, whigs, Easterangs? Again, what a treat. What a honor and a joy for me. I'm genuine, absolute thrill.

Zills and Panfrew. flutes and all. My goodness. Thank you. It's time for some thank you. Thank you to our Covenant. Carlos Chiroboga with us today to produce this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal for additional podcast supervision. Joe Mia Dinaran for the social on this episode. And then on video today, Stefano Sanchez, editing John Richter and T. Cruz, a video support. We will see you next Friday for our episode four. Five. Devastating.

God. Next Friday for our episode five deep dive. It's a one pod house of our week. Joe will be with you many other times next week on prestige, trial by content. We'll be with you together on Friday. Until then, remember, wherever it may bend, we'll see you at the end.