House of R - 'Agatha All Along' Episode 7 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

We are all travelers, and Jo and Mal will be here to take you along the path! This week, the 'House of R' will take you on a deep dive into the seventh episode of 'Agatha All Along'. They take you on the Lilia-centered episode and all the tarot-filled goodness! Opening Snapshot (04:42) Deep Dive (15:09) Coven of Two (16:51) Look at Her She's Wicked (30:40) Back in the Ditch (44:48) Jump Forward in Time (01:08:08) Back in the Ditch (01:21:13) TWO ROADS DIVERGED IN A LITERALLY YELLOW WOOD (01:34:22) Lilia's Reading (01:35:44) Lilia Holds the Door (01:50:31) Theory Corner (01:57:05) Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman and John Richter Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. What are you missing? Why are you on this journey? I didn't want to come. Then why did you? To get my power back. Is it gone?

Where did he go? This is not the true reason. I'm a forgotten woman. Then remember yourself. What's worth remembering? That you died? That I saw it coming? Our entire coven, wiped out by a fever.

I saw it. I told you, but it didn't change anything. that comes for us all. What's up, bad babies, and welcome back to House of Our. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today in the studio in Los Angeles, back together again. It's Mallory Rubin. Did you not see imminent impalement in your future? Hello.

We're back. We're back. In person. Oh, what a joy. I missed you. What a delight. Here to talk about a tremendous episode of television as well. We're here to talk about.

Episode 7 of Agatha all along, and that cry face that you may or may not be seeing on Mallory Rubin's face, because this is a video pod, is the devastation that we only have one more week left with Agatha. How? How? Why? Who? Where? All right. So that's what we're here to talk about today. Yes. Before we get into that, program reminders. It's a twofer over on the midnight boys. Poo! Poo! Poo! Poo! Because they're covering Penguin, they're covering Agatha. And I heard they liked Agatha. Great stuff. Venom.

Mm-hmm. There's a Venom, The Last Dance, Instant Reaction Pod coming for the Midnight Boys. Boy is there. And having had the pleasure of sitting with the Midnight Boys and a number of our other ringer pals to watch Benin the Last Dance, I can tell you right now that is going to be a fantastic podcast. Appointment listening. Tune in. We'll be back next week with... A two-part act of the finale, devastating.

Yeah. As well as possibly another trick and or treat. So that is what's happening here and elsewhere on the Riggerverse. I can't believe it's finale time already. I know. Sheesh. I can't believe it's Halloween already. Valerie.

Yeah. How can folks keep track of? Make sure they don't miss whatever we do. Yeah. Whatever button mash does, whatever Mint Edition does. What do you think? Follow the pod. Brilliant.

Thank you. Yeah. Follow the House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're at it, hit subscribe on the newish ringerverse YouTube channel because you can watch full episodes of House of R this year podcast and the Midnight Boys, Poooooo! On Spotify and on the Ringervverse YouTube channel. While you're at it, follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing. The Ringervverse is on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter.

Yes. Which I heard Chris Ryan actually out in the wild refer to as X the other day. I know. I'll have words with them. Please do. Yeah. See that you do.

Okay. And then send us your emails. The inbox is open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Have to imagine that we will be getting plenty of Agatha finale emails next week on episodes eight and nine. Keep those coming. And then start sending us your emails on Do Prophecy.

Yeah, there she is. Gladiator 2. Oh, my gosh, yes. If you haven't emailed us yet about Craven, why not? End of year stuff. End of year stuff. Silo, Skeleting crew. Lots of good stuff still to come this year, so keep the emails coming as well.

Joe, back to you literally in the studio. All right. Hello. Spoiler warning. As I mentioned, we were here to talk about episode 7 of Agatha all along. So everything that has ever happened in Marvel Disney Plus history up through Agatha Episode 7, comics book, comic book history is on the table. We've got a little morsel of comic book intel for you in this episode.

But no future spoilers. We don't know what's happening in eight or nine. We've got some guesses, some theories, some thoughts, some concerns, some questions. No clue. No concerns, actually, just optimism. And we'll be talking about that. But that is your friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning.

And now that's done, let's go to the opening Snapchat. So this is episode seven, death's hand in mine. And something that Agatha has been doing all along, let's say, is dropping these reveals a bit earlier than we expected. So we kind of thought that death's hand in mind might be the name of the finale. But we got the bill reveal earlier than we thought. And we got the death reveal earlier than we thought. And we got this title a bit earlier than we thought. Written by Cameron Squires and Gia King.

And Cameron, we should note, also wrote the. Ackleight episode Night, which we really loved. We talked about at this very table. Great work from Cameron Squires this year. Gia King, welcome to the pod. Cameron was also part of the Wanda Vision gang. And then directed by the absolute legend, Jack Schaefer. Wonderful.

Wonderful stuff. 37 minutes, give or take previously on credits. How did you feel about that? Yeah, it's like 28 minutes of actual episode, right? But I continue to actually quite enjoy the shorter length of many of these episodes, which is not usually, as you know, my stance. I'm usually a glutton and I'm like, why are these episodes so short?

Make the episodes longer. Make the seasons longer. Then we can make our podcasts longer. Impossible. Impossible. But I just think that the ability to use every minute well, efficiently, and to pack a lot of story into a tight little podcast. Yeah.

Tidal number. I think also with a conceit like this one, a very time-you-I-mey, time-skipping sort of idea. They packed in a lot of emotional wall-up, a lot without confusing people. I think I talked to a lot of people who were not confused by this, but if you were confused, that's what we're here for. We're here to help you. Just a reminder, by the way, that this is the cheapest Marvel Disney Plus series, cheaper than Echo, which was the previous sort of record holder for that. And just the bang for the buck Like the production design on the tower

And the flipped tower alone How is this the cheapest? It doesn't look at is my point. Yeah. And it's a huge hit for them Because the cost is so low, they're just sort of like, we're just raking in the eyeballs on this one.

So happy Halloween. Okay. Valerie. Joanna. Give me your overall thoughts on episode seven. We haven't talked. No. No.

That's core week here at the Ringer, and every minute has been jam. Running around. Packed. So we have not debriefed yet, but I am excited, obviously, to podcast with you about this episode of television. I quite enjoyed the seventh episode of Agatha, as I have quite enjoyed the entire season of Agatha. I remain, as I was last week, very confident that the season will finish well. I am fascinated to see if it feels like the final two episodes needed to air together and made sense to air together, or if it really, is just so it ends on Halloween week.

I'll be really curious to see about that. But, yeah, I have, I loved the episode. I think there's like an incredible ability to give, and in a way that is actually very rare, and I think the streaming era of the shorter seasons and the connected universe storytelling, all of the, you know, nominal side characters, like meaningfully impactful arcs.

Yeah. I think my one note at this point in the season is I do feel that we are a little light on the titular Agatha in the last two episodes, even though I loved them. And that is exclusively anxiety about the fact that the show ends next week. If there were more remaining time, I would not feel that at all. I'm missing Agatha a little bit. And I have a couple other thoughts and feelings on things that happened inside this episode.

Happened inside of the episode. But broadly, I thought it was, you know, You know, we're in an era where we talk a lot, we being just the viewing public, about whether shows pay off the setup. And, you know, we're both lost lovers and we both actually love the lost finale. And I think a lot about how in the post-lost era, a bad lesson that TV has learned is that you have to try to check every box or people are going to be mad. Yeah. And I think that this is like a – this is a – this is a – an example of a story that people can turn to

where if something paid off, there was a reason. If a bow was tied, it was because it mattered. It needed to be tied. Yeah, right? Like, we're not just checking boxes and moving through our to-do list for, like, the fuck of it. And the sake of it, it's when we're going through Lillia's arc and these moments and lines that we've heard before, return, there's a satisfaction as a viewer

that, like, the time that you have invested was really warranted. but I don't feel like we're doing it just to say we did, just to exit the show and say like any question you had was eventually answered. There really has been like a reason. So the way that the structure of this episode had like honored the structure of the season was obviously just very satisfying. The themes in this episode, the theme of community, the theme of sisterhood, the way that the coven came into it was beautiful.

I thought there were a couple lines in this episode. We heard one, which we'll talk about more later, in the opening clip today, that are kind of instant pantheon, like, you know, that we're just going to be quoting and thinking about for a long time as Marvel fans. And it was not only a beautiful Lillia episode. I thought this was a great Jen episode. A great Jen episode.

So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. What about you? I think that's, and that it speaks to the idea of the Cuffin that it's like, it doesn't have to be one person's episode. I agree with you very Agatha Light. Yeah. In a way that I didn't, I loved this episode. and I wouldn't change a thing,

but I have to imagine that the last two episodes are going to be Agatha jam-packed and then we won't feel that absence, that lack. You are my sister in The Craft. Yeah. My sister in Pod. I was thinking of you, of course, because you mentioned Lost. Of course, there's a very famous Lost episode called The Constant, the most famous Lost episode, I would say,

about a character who's sort of come unstuck in time and is hopping back and forth between two. timelines. But this is like a trope in general in TV storytelling that I almost always enjoy. Yeah. Same. It's a puzzle of an episode

and you have to pay it. So I was watching it. So I watched it first by myself last night and then I went over to a pal's house and I watched it with her because she works in television and I just wanted to pick her like TV brain about it. And she's a very like ADHD fidgety person

and she often has like her phone up or is like, you know, fussing around or whatever. And, like, a few minutes in, she just put the phone down and never picked it back up. Well, and I think because it required active viewing, right, but also because it was inventive and fun to watch. If something requires active viewing, but it feels like homework, then that's not a pleasure. So the constant is a great comp. I love the constant. We love that.

I think more, the one, the episode that I was thinking a lot of, about when I watch this, the TV series Castle Rock. In the first season, episode seven, there's an episode called The Queen, which is Sissy Spacec doing something very similar to this where it's not just, in the constant Desmond Hume is just hopping between two timelines. And it's still fun and engaging in a very emotionally rewarding, obviously. But it's not. Is that you, Penn? Penn. Penn.

But it's not, I mean, it's not that hard to track when we are in the episode. because of wig-based reasons. But, like, in the Queen, the Castle Rock episode, you can watch that over and over and over again and still be puzzling out. Not in a way where you're not tracking the emotionality of it, though. That episode, The Queen Castle Rock, is one of the best episodes of television

I've ever seen, C.C. Spaceic, a legend, great. The Bent Neck Lady, a haunting of Hillhouse episode. I would not recommend that to you, but it is Mike Flanagan's spooky season, so if you guys haven't rewatched haunting of Hill House. I recommend it. The Door. Of course.

I'm thinking about Hodor. Always. Kik Tsuya, West World episode that I really, really love. Or most of West World Season 1, that's not a season one episode, but most of Westworld season one, which is, spoiler for Westworld season one, a time hoppy kind of thing. And then an episode of Doctor Who, the Big Bang, you know? So this idea, this kind of episode has been done in various permeate. mutations before.

So you have to crush it if you're going to do it. It's a high level kind of storytelling to make sure we're tracking emotionality, making sure we're not confused about the plot. Our listener, John, on Twitter, was like asking for a trope's course about these kinds of stories. And they called them a Billy Pilgrim story, which is Slaughter off five. That was most on my mind. Has come unstuck in time.

That's like, I think, this idea of unstuck in time. really, I think, originated with Slaughterhouse 5. And then our listener, Asa, Asa, maybe. Just dropped, said Dark Tower, I don't want to say why. Just in case people don't want Dark Tower spoilers, but

that's all in the mix there. So just being able to enjoy that pop culture cocktail is one thing, but then to be able, as a genuine lifelong Pad de Lepone fan, watch her just cook. Oh, yeah. Incredible performance.

I was just so thrilled to your point to give Jen the space that I actually think she's kind of been missing in the show made me really, really happy. And yeah, it just fed my puzzle brain and my bleeding heart and like all these things. And I just had the best time with it. Should we do the deep dive? Let's do it. Let's do it. So we open with Patty. Lillia herself falling.

We come back to this imagery at the end of the episode. This is a black background. Yes. And Lillia looks distressed. Yes. And when we get to the end of the episode, we see it again with the tower setting behind her

and this sort of at-piece, beatific look on her face. I loved this as a bookend visual for the episode because you have the connection, you have the link, but then you have those distinct. the expression, the environment around her, and that sense then of how her journey ended and what it means for her to have reached the end of the road and to have completed her journey and to have embraced her power and her life instead of shutting it down and repressing it and running from it and fearing it. This idea, not just of the black around her in the opening shot as like literally not understanding, not knowing, not having the connective tissue to totally recognize and piece together where she is.

She is, when she is, what's happening, and why. But it also just gives you that emotional sense of like you're unmoored, right? The void. You have no tether. And so to see like the specificity around her at the end and the fact that she is in that place, in that moment, even though she is falling to what she has accepted is her death. There's an embrace. Well, it's just like beautiful. Loved it.

We cut then to what I'm calling the Covenant of Two right now, which is Billy and Agatha on the road. This is a pickup immediately sort of from where we left them last week. She reminds him that she was, and the people who didn't watch Wanda Vision, that she was once his babysitter when he was young. She said, and his mom's ex pregnant paws best friend. So all the Agatha Wanda Shippers were fed a little bit in that moment.

And I just think that Catherine Hahn looked great. despite being caked in mud in this episode. Pulled it off. Yeah. Pulled it off. Yeah. Looked like she had come from a relaxing day at the spa, a little like mud massage. Oh, yeah.

You ever done one of this? A mud massage, no, but I've been in a mud bath. Or like a clay massage. Oh, yeah. How was it? I'm going to tell you what a mud bath is like. Yeah. Okay.

Here's what I learned the first time I did a mud bath. Okay. Oh, the first time. So there have been many times. Psychologically, what they tell people if it's their first time the mud bath is that you should leave like a hand or a foot out because the mud's very heavy. So you're going to feel like you're being like sucked into quicksand otherwise? Like people psychologically freak out if they can't move their hands and their feet.

But if you have just one hand out in the air, you're free. You're just like, I can do this. Amazing. So I did one hand out. And you felt fine. You felt great. And you've been back. I've been back.

Yeah. Always the same hand? No, I've done all limbs in. It was just the first time. Anyway, that's the mud bath corner. Okay. So, Billy cannot read Agatha's mind. It's something we learned in WandaVision.

We talked about it last week. Quiet. Anything? Yeah. Anything you want to say about that specifically? I thought it was interesting to be reminded that he can't access what's inside of her because she remains some mystery not only to him but to us. And obviously, there's a later conversation in the episode about this question of truthfulness, right?

And how much Billy is willing or able at this. this point in their shared journey to believe and put stock in anything that Agatha says. And like this feels like both a themically rich but also a very practical place for them to be. Because if he could read her mind, there wouldn't be any mystery, right? And so the fact that he can't is useful for the story, but it's also compelling for us when we think about Agatha's character because like we talked about last week, why? Does this speak to a distance between them? Does this speak to something she is actively stifling and repressing, some sort of magic?

any number of other things that we discussed last week or that might be on our minds now. And so, like, it works for the mechanic of the plot right now, but it also works for the characters. Right, because whatever we're going to get from her that's locked away in her silent brain is presumably going to come in episode eight or nine. And the question is there's two ways those could be delivered. There could be this idea of she tells her story, whatever it is, and Billy has to choose whether or not he believes her. or will she be able to let him inside of her mind and come with her on this journey? Questions, comments, no concerns. Okay, so the idea that later he pulls the Seven of Swords for her and he says,

oh, it's reverse. That means the opposite. You're being truthful. To me means we should believe everything that she's saying in this exchange. One of our listeners wrote in to say the actual reverse Seven of Swords is actually means self-deception. So I can't tell if that's just the show fudging this a little bit for their use. Billy, as we established, does not know how to read her over. It wasn't his best subject.

Wasn't his best subject. Yeah. So I choose to believe Agatha and everything here. It's not just this, but it's also the shot we get at the end when they're about to approach the castle. Billy has turned his back and walked away. And we've been talking about these unmasked moments. Yeah. With Agatha, she just looks so teary-eyed and sort of gutted.

And so I just choose to believe everything she's saying here is true. She won't answer where Rio is. Doesn't mean she's going to answer every question. But if she answers it, it will be true. And then she asked about the mom. And then how did you take Billy's response to that? She's not my mom. I have a mom.

Yes. So before we get to the Izwanda Maximov's really dead part. We were talking last week about the genuine, I think, despair we felt watching the Kaplan's. not be able to fully mourn. Morn their son because they don't know that William died and that Billy's soul shard made its way into this hollow vessel and that he broke the rules.

We got it. Shard watch. We got it in. We got it in, just like the shard got into the husk. Cork. Yeah. I thought that there were like, both sides of this are worth thinking about, right?

because she's not my mom. First of all, there was something almost like, it was reflexive, right? There wasn't a beat and a moment of like pensive. No, he just said it right away. And there was anger and resentment. And we've talked a lot about the role of reputation in the story and like what people say about you

and then what other people who know you or don't know you, have some tie to you or don't have some tide, you think of you as a result of that. And so the idea that, that Wanda Maximoff held this town hostage and that Billy knows that, right, is something on his mind here. Also, the events, one must presume, is multiverse of madness. Multiverse of madness. And, but, like, that feels like something that I have to imagine.

We will see a softening. We will see a thought. It has to be. In any part of the MCU, I think really bizarre if that was just the end point for it. but particularly in a Jack Schaefer story, I just don't think that's possible, right? And what's particularly, I think, juicy or delectable about that idea is that that insight, the providing of empathy around Wanda will probably come from Agatha. Right.

Agatha explaining to him why he should have empathy for his mom. Yes. So Agatha as Wanda Defender, what a journey we've been on. I can't wait to watch it if that's where we're heading. I love it. And then the, I have a mom part, is beautiful. It is. And hopefully the journey that we're watching Billy go on is that he can hold those things in his mind at the same time.

He can learn to embrace Wanda and open himself up to that part of his history and that part of his family, that part of his self, right? And realize that that doesn't have to mean letting go of the Kaplan's, of those parents who are, family to him and can remain family to him, even if Wanda and Vision and Tommy enter his life. He doesn't have to choose. It's like a lesson Theon got very late and hopefully one that Billy gets earlier. I love that. You don't have to choose. Agatha Hedges in a very, I thought, extremely hilarious fashion about whether or not Wanda

Maximoff was still alive. To me, this red is very meta. This is a MCU preoccupation. My understanding, and I'm happy to be, like, maybe she'll show up with a finale, happy to be proved wrong. My understanding is that Marvel wants Elizabeth Olson and the Scarlet Witch, the nexus being that she is, back to help with their multiverse saga. And my understanding is that Elizabeth Olson would prefer not to. Right. So maybe, depending on how the contract negotiations go.

I mean, they've been doing this since episode one, right? Like the very first scene of the series with Agnes and Herb and the She is dead, though. Isn't she Herb? oh, she really is most sincerely dead. You never know. Wink. Yeah. So I like this. I mean, of course, the possibility is always open in the MCU, but in this slice of the universe in particular, it makes sense that this would be something that they're playing with. I love it. Hey, you want straight answers? Ask a straight lady. Great stuff. Instantly iconic. I love it. Then we see the home of the next trial, and it's a very scary, spooky castle on a hill with a lot of of towers. We will be visiting those towers momentarily.

This could be any sort of Disney spooky castle. I think it's worthwhile to tie it to the Black Cauldron because Billy had a Black Cauldron poster on his wall in his room, but also it could be Maleficin's castle. It could be a number of sort of Disney-esque castles that could come straight from if Billy is manifesting this road come from the mind of a teen who was raised on that kind of storytelling. Yeah. I love it. I love it too. Okay. Then Billy, speaking on behalf of all the redditors, the Agatha All Along subreddit,

says, I'm not even sure you walked the road at all. Right. I thought you would have insight, but I'm not even sure you've been here before. Yes. And she looks rather taken aback at that. And I think this has been a pretty popular theory that Agatha's bullshitting that she's never walked the road before. I think she definitely did walk the road, whatever that means.

Whether or not that means literally walking a road or whatever. Because if you go back and rewatch, as I did last week, every time someone mentions the Witches Road in the second episode when they're rounding everyone up, they're like, that's a death sentence. That's a hoax. That's a, it's never like, that's a corporeal road. It's a concept more than it is a place,

which is what she sort of says later when teen's like, are we driving there? What are we doing? So has Agatha walked a physical road before? I'm not sure, but has she done the trial that is known as the Witch's Road without question to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I took her, this was another great moment for just watching the facial expression, right, and trying to figure out what we're seeing play on Agatha's face there because I think there's like the, okay, I agree with what you said earlier broadly that the just discussion about

her being truthful is, again, like everything else in the series so far, there for a reason. And that feels like it feels like the reason is to give us the indication that we should be putting stock into what we're hearing from Agatha, right? And is it possible is it possible that this is part of some sort of just like, you know,

you print the legend? Maybe. I don't think so. I also think she's been there. So I took this more as like the thing playing out on her face is how painful it would be to hear that doubt expressed when whatever happened to her on the road might have been tied to like losing Nikki, right, to the deepest pain and trauma of her life and then have people doubt you and question you and wonder if it's just one more way that you try to like prop up your status. And especially again in an episode where she's like, she's based on me and he's like, prove it. That all feels very much like a part of the same text.

I also thought it felt, again, deliberate that that question, now I wonder if you've ever been on the road at all, it comes right after we're alive success. And I think it is literally in the flow of that conversation just a continuation of Billy saying in your experience. I honestly believed your experience would be the key to our success here. And she kind of cuts in, right, we're alive. Success. Now I wonder. But it did make me think especially in the context of an episode we're so. so much of that idea of like, you know, go with him gladly, right? For death is there. It, maybe the mistake is thinking that winning is living, right? That you have to die or you have to be willing to sacrifice yourself, which obviously fits with what we've been talking about the whole time. Possibly, but also I agree. And I would say so like that dying isn't losing.

Right. Is the flip side of that, right? Lillia probably does some version of dying in this episode. But we would also say she won. Absolutely. Exactly. But also this idea of being like just literally alive versus living. Yes. We would recommend that Agatha or anyone listening or watching this podcast, fire up the HBO Max and watch Station 11 and learn the lesson that survival is insufficient.

Insufficient. It's not enough to just survive, especially if you're surviving and you're just alone as Agatha seems to have been since cutting Rio, since losing Nikki, since all this sort of stuff like that. Like, is that really living? Right. I was reminded of a Stevenson-time lyric. Hit me. The musical is Company. The song is Being Alive.

If you're an Adam Driver fan, you maybe remember him singing it at the end of marriage story. You can listen or watch Paddy Lupin sing it on YouTube. She's done it many, many times over the years. It's like a banger song. But it's all about a character who has isolated,

who is like, all of his friends are married, and he has not gotten to. married in is just sort of like alone and is afraid of and this this is why I was thinking about it afraid of connection letting someone in too close and so he has this transformation over the course of the song of like actually I want that like somebody like hold me too close like somebody hold me accountable somebody make me come through someone do all this stuff alone is alone not alive like and so it's just sort of like this idea of surviving is not living and isolating is not being here on this community we call planet Earth.

So, we go across phases of the moon drawbridge. Yes, we do. Yeah. Into the air trial. Take us through the reveal of the costumes. I mean, we've seen them in the trailers, but like, what did you think? So Agatha is much to Lillia's. We haven't seen Lillia in the same spaces here yet,

but the second we see it, we know Lillia is going to be mortified and dismembered. Culturally offended. Culturally offended. We have time for that later. Thank you, Jen, for keeping everyone on task. Agatha's there. She's green. She's the wicked witch.

Wonderful stuff. Billy is Maleficent. Delightful. Should we save the others or hit them here? We can if you want to. Go for it. They're not here yet, but let's hit the costumes. Sure.

Lilia is Linda, the Good Witch. Delightful. And Jen is the crown version of the evil queen from Snow White. She doesn't want to talk about it. She doesn't want to talk about it. And I don't want to talk about a wave, but that's fine. If the cheap phones fit for Billy. Amazing stuff. Wonderful line. Fantastic. But I also have to, like, so Maleficent is connected, similar to, like, Billy's Torah reading, which is connected to Aaron and his sons and all this sort of like that. Like Maleficent and the idea of like stolen children and all of that is in my mind. But also this idea that that is in my mind. But also this idea that. that both the Wicked Witch of the West and Maleficent have had major splashy, big budget, musicals or Disney productions about, hey, what if she isn't wicked? What if she isn't as bad as we think she might be? Shout out the evil queen also got that treatment on Once Upon a Time,

but that's not a property I'm that familiar with, but I do know. that the evil queen from Snow White is, I think, I believe, kind of a hero in that show eventually. Okay. intriguing. Then we get the first of three readings. This is Agatha's reading from Billy. And this is a name what we got from our listener, McKenna, who said the chariot symbolizes overcoming conflict and moving forward in a positive direction.

And the Seven of Swords reverse also points to making positive changes in a fresh start. given the reveal of Rio death, it seems like Agatha is going to have to decide between her old life and a new life. I'm guessing that after she killed her coven, Rio taught Agatha to embrace her power and not feel bad at what she's done because death is inevitable. So Agatha did what she did. Now she has a different choice. He could be a mentor instead who teaches witches to embrace their power, but for good, we'll see what choice or sacrifices she makes. I liked this email. I'm not sure I am like on board with every single prediction or thought here, but Chariot makes me think of carriages, which makes me think of because I could not stop for death.

He kindly stopped for me, Emily Dickinson, the coroner. Yeah. Anything, any... If only Agatha were here after you said carriage to say, chariot. It's literally written on the card. It's literally written on the card. It's literally written on the card. Any extrapolations you want to make from the chariot or the Seven of Swords?

We already talked sort of about the Seven of Swords and the idea of the... truth-telling. Yeah, I think that we should assume that this will have a payoff, given that every other card that came up throughout the entire season bore fruit in this episode, right? So that's exciting to think about. And we get the Agatha reading, we get the Billy reading before Lillian moves to realizing that she is, in fact, the traveler. And so there are clues for, you know, the biggest mystery is, I mean, obviously Rio, but the biggest mysteries are still about Agatha and Billy. So we have new clues for them here. I think in terms of like the, it's an interesting email. I don't think the lesson will be murder.

Murdering is okay. I think there will be a difference between embracing death versus murdering is okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this idea of death, and it's worth noting that the death card and the tarot deck does not really literally mean death. But like that this idea of death, as we learned, as we heard in the opening clip, a lot of what this episode is concerned with this is idea of death as like a comfort. Yeah. A thing we all share.

Next great adventure. Let the carriage roll up. If the carriage rolls up, Mallory Rubin. And hot Aubrey Plaza is in the carriage. And she's like, come with me. Are you getting in the carriage? Five stars. Great.

Yeah. I mean, like, so there's a way in which if Agatha does, like, quote, unquote, die at the end of all of this, there's a way in which that's still a happy ending for her. Yes, absolutely. It feels, again, like we're heading toward that, the maybe sacrifice for Billy, you know, to do something for Billy that she was not able to do for. her own son to make a choice for someone else instead of herself, to reject her power, to protect someone else. Very much feels like that's what we're moving toward. And I think we will mourn the loss of if that is where we go, Agatha and Catherine Hahn in the MCU.

But the lesson that that was the right thing, that you don't have to hold on forever, that you shouldn't hold on forever for Agatha. That surviving is not necessarily winning. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years in. Go hang out with it. I do. We have an email about that, and I do have some, like, notes on that. We'll get to that a little bit later. How do you feel about the sort of Damocles ceiling? What did it make you think of? Were you thinking Star Wars Trash Compactor? Indiana Jones? No, yeah. I wrote, I wrote Temple of Doom in my notes immediately. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm always thinking of the Star Wars Trash Compactor. So that's a great one, too.

Yeah. Specifically, I would say Indies, like, fedora with the, like, spike coming down and, like, depressing the brim. I was thinking a lot about eventually thinking a lot about Goonies because I'm always thinking about Goonies But also there is a And there was a Goody's knockoff poster on Billy's room That's right But one of the puzzle trials that they have to go through In the Goonies involves one of their pack

Remembering how to play the piano And if she gets a wrong note The Rocks Fall on them And so it's very much like a calm down, remember your training. You know how to do this. You can read this music. You can complete this trial.

Agatha does a hasty card pull for Billy, and then we get this gem. We keep at it until we get the right cards and the right spots or the sealing run out of swords. And Billy says, I'm not sure how much math you did back in Salem, but that will take forever. I really loved this. It was part, just in general, I'm always craving more Agatha, but it was part of it. why I was craving just a little bit more Agatha in an episode that, again, broadly, I loved. I think, like, the way that Agatha is describing tarot, right? It's a con like any other. There's no magic to it. There's no skill. Billy's defense. It tells us a lot about both of them.

And, you know, of course, we see that skill. We see everything he says here. He's talking about intuition, interpretation, divining meaning, all of that. We see how true and real and tangible and meaningful that is. But so I love the like Billy's admiration for the craft part of it. And it also feels like especially in the episode where his key question is am I William or am I Billy. Like that's the, that's William, right? We talked about last week the difference between magic and magic.

And, you know, who had a divination tent at his bar mitzvah? Who had tea leave reading at his bar mitzvah? It was William. So like Billy's embrace of something that William loved felt really lovely there for him. And then I think like the the fact that Agatha, who we have heard say to Jen, for example, they can't take your knowledge, right, who has been able to tap into and then express and share with others her deep and true connection to the craft is just basically here in like logic puzzle mode, math equation mode, thinking about it as like, let's, we can probably guess the past. password, right? We can guess we can pick the lock. She's not thinking about the craft here. She's not doing the thing that she has given to others to help them push through their trial. And so the way that she is oscillating in and out of that attachment and that ability to like recognize

the germ of the meaning of the thing has been fascinating for me to track. And I've really liked that. I think like Billy, I will say, I actually was curious to ask you about this. Because all of the back and forth motion for Agatha, as we've talked about a couple times, feels so human and in character for her. And those contradictions are a huge part of her. Are you bumping at all or no on how Billy is behaving toward Agatha now and in the last couple episodes? Like this is just because, and I don't mean to minimize. Just because Alice is. Listen, I don't mean to minimize killing.

But he thought he killed Lillian Jen. Like he thought they were dead. He sort of moved on from that. But his entire, you know, like as we saw last week, he had figured out who he was. He says in this episode it's clear to us he didn't understand the depth of his power. Yeah. That's clear. Right. But he sought out Agatha.

Yeah. Specifically. Yeah. With a great enthusiasm. right, knowing from Mr. Bonnerific that she was like in other people's estimation a monster. So are you like, oh yeah, this is exactly how Billy would be behaving toward Agatha? Does that feel totally right to you or is there anything about it that feels a little just a touch to extreme? And again, I would like to be clear, I do think that killing Alice was bad.

I do think that killing Alice was bad. Well, unlike some people on this podcast, I do give a shit about Alice, so I will say that. I love Alice. Like, I feel like should he be almost like mourning the last? loss of the, oh, I'm excited to be your partner in this thing a little bit more or no. I have questions about that. How much of that was like a little bit of an act? So last week, though, it felt like we saw that that was sincere. I think his enthusiasm for discovering the road was sincere.

Yeah. But I don't think his enthusiasm, I don't think he was like, Agatha, she's the best. I think he was like, Agatha, she's the key to get me what I want. And he's intrigued by her and interested in her. And like, hopeful that this partnership is. And so now he's just like, I don't need you. And so I have no reason to pretend that I have any interest in being near you. Yeah.

That's like pretty sinister to me. I think Billy has a little bit of sinister in him. Yeah. Yeah. How is your buy-in on Billy's manifesting the road theory that we talked about at length last week? Yeah. Based on the fact that Billy says, I wish Lillia was here. and right then later in the episode, but right then she busts through the bookcase.

Yeah, I think I'm less sure than I was last week. Definitely less sure than I was last week. That's because I haven't been like Grima worm-tong whispering in your ear, my theory enthusiasm. And if you ever need a top-up, you can just call me. I still believe that it's possible. And what I love about it is that. It feels entirely possible and also like it could definitely not be the case. And they've set up both of those outcomes well.

And that's actually much more interesting and exciting to me than something being so clear, which like is a little tease for one of the notes I have on the episode and a reveal. We had a decent mix of people buying all the way in and people pushing back on our discussion around that theory. And again, like anything, I'm just going to hold it loosely. Loosely. Loosely. The pushback seems to be largely centered on the way in which the trials are also tailored to the individual witch and their specific trauma. Is that something Billy would know in the case of Alice, maybe Jen less so? Is that something Billy would unknowingly intuit given his mighty mind-riding powers?

But to be crystal clear, and we got a couple emails about this, I don't think if it is a hex situation. Yeah. And I'm actually like even more in now that we've seen the subway tunnels. But like if it is a Billy created a hex similar to his mom's hex situation, I don't think it's the same as Wanda sort of forcing the townspeople of Westview to play a role. Yeah. I think all the witches are being themselves and acting autonomously. Yes, agreed. I think he is even, I know he is, if he is doing this, even less aware than Wanda was.

There were times when Wanda wasn't like fully aware of what she was doing, willfully ignoring what she was doing. And then there were times when she knew exactly what the fuck she was doing. Yeah. I think Billy has just done this without knowing. And so he's not puppeteering the witches. They're going through their own genuine emotional catharsis, making choices, learning and growing and all of that sort of stuff. To your point about earlier about Agatha, Agatha playing the role of, uh, cheer. for Jen through her trial and then not being the doubter in this trial. The cheerleader in this episode is Jen. And so I think this idea and we'll get to more discussion about Jen is the path forward sort of idea. But could this be an intentional handing over of leadership rule from Agatha Head of Coven to Jen?

High priestess. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Meanwhile, back in a ditch. Yeah. It's a tunnel, but I just am falling in a ditch. We get the first of several time jumps from Lillia with the side of muddy Jen.

And at this point from Jen's POV, Lillia has already explained who Billy is, the tarot trial, that they have to look for a bookcase and vaguely the nature of her time skipping. She'll get to more explanation about that. Fun fact about tarot. Invented in Italy in 1430. Wonderful. Perfect connection.

If we have it our way, we will get to talk to some people who worked on the show and get maybe some info from them. And this is one of those like chicken egg situations in a writer's room where I'm like, did they decide they want to do tarot? Yeah. Did some research, found out it was invented in Italy centuries ago. And they were like, let's have our tarot character be from Sicily. You know, centuries ago, something like that. But this idea of Lilia telling Jen

that Billy is a Scarlet Witch's kid Yeah And Jen telling Lilia that Billy is a Scarlet Witch's kid And that going back and forth And back and forth in time Yeah That's a bootstrap paradox baby

We love it We love a bootstrap Very hoovian I was thinking of our guy 12 quite a bit I think my fate Actually my because there were a bunch of examples of this, of course, in the episode, given the way it's structured and the way that Lilia is unstuck in time and moving across time. You're like, you've forgiven him. You're not mad at him anymore. That was my favorite version of the bouncing around. I thought that was great. But part of what was so smart about this is, again, it's like this vibrant emotional brew. Because you're tickling the sci-fi part of your brain, right, thinking about things like a paradox and trying.

whether it's your traveling across time, your consciousness is traveling across time. But there was such a heaviness to this. You know, the way that Lilius, like, the I told you. Yeah. And I thought, so watching this for the first time, this is a really fun episode to rewatch, watching this for the first time,

it's really smart because we, of course, as viewers, even though I've been theorizing and speculating a lot about this, oh, you were even like, I mean, maybe like week by week three of the season, stitching together how you thought the quotes were going to fit, right? The fact that we are very much rooted in Lillia's point of view, right? Because we also have not yet experienced the scene that Jen has happened. You're saying we're disoriented the way that she's disoriented. Yeah, we are out of time along with Lillia.

We are like firmly having the same experience that she is across the episode. So that sense of being confused, but then also being like, you think I'm baddie, but I'm not bad. I haven't paying attention. I've been watching the show. I'm ready to follow along. Like, just felt very effective, right? And then you have the despair of having to confront then because you are so rooted in her point of view and her perspective, what it would be like to live your life this way. And how I was thinking of the line we've heard a couple times across the season, like the burden and blessing of the coven.

Yeah, yeah. And like the burden and blessing of something like this, not a lot of blessings, right? And like, and who did we hear that from? Lillia. But then it becomes a blessing. Yes. And you have to like work your way toward that embrace and you can only do it with the coven and with the other people around you to help. And so like the idea that this thing, this ability, this gift, the sight, so many people would think that that was an incredible power or covet it, right? Would want to be able. It's like very like a guy. and three-eyed raveny, right? You know, could you... And not to, like, spoil the end of Game of Thrones, but, like, this was one of the things that I was always interested in debating. Should a person who knows that much

ever be in a position of power? Like, ever... No, of course not. But... What's more important than story? What's more important than story? So, you know, for Lillia to... For us to watch this journey from fearing this,

resenting it, needing to distance herself from this ability because other people came to fear her for it and judge her for it because of what she was able to see and then share in an effort to help. I think I want to yes, Ann, what you said. Knowledge you don't want. I want to yes and what you said because you're like the, how traumatizing it would be to live your life this way.

And I think what's even more traumatizing about this is that she lived her life this way for a time when she was a child. And then it went away and now it's back. And how scary that is. It's not something you've been coping with your whole life. It's something you thought you had already conquered. and now it's back. And it's not just something that's back.

It's a child fear that's back. But do you think she thought she conquered it? I feel like she knows she hid it away and didn't want to look at it. I mean, I feel like that's kind of semantics around Concord. I just sort of mean she thought she was done with it. Right. Because what she does in this episode is Conquer It, right? And like the, she's repressed it and she has not.

I don't think she conquers it. She embraces it. Isn't that how she conquers it? I'm embracing it. That's the win is like that you don't have to beat it. Right. You, you, you, you succumb to it. But I think she, the, it's not control, right? It's the way that I'm using Conquer is just to sort of wrestle it into submission so that she could live her life in a linear fashion, right? And yeah, and then it comes back and she's terrified. Yes. And to that, to that end of the snappishness, it was reading very like dementia patient analog to me, this idea of like older women or older people. I've had family members experience dementia and there's this like defensiveness that is just so heartbreaking to navigate and to watch and really understandable. We get to watch Lillia go through those little moments that you were talking about that we've been trying to stitch together all season. Let's hear a little bit. Which is it?

Am I wispy or am I kooky? A bit of both, if I'm honest. Alice. Alice, don't try to save Agatha. Yes, I love this plan. I just think that maybe we should find the ingredients first, though, right? What do you see? What did you think of this?

I loved it. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun to feel the pieces click into place. Every time we got to see it, it was really, really fun. It felt just, like, very tidy. Yeah. Yeah. Very slide-puzzle-y. You have all the pieces there. And they were always in the in the border, right? It was just about making the picture look exactly, right? Like seeing the survivor logo coming to one of the places. We have like a quarter of the picture in like the wrong corner. And it just like, yeah, slid up in place. Great, great comp. Time for divination. With Lillia's maestra, who I would say has a lot in common with the ancient one. Would you not say? this one to his character.

I loved all of this. It was great. The actress, Laura, I would say Bocoletti is how I pronounce her last name. I thought she was a real highlight of an already like fantastic episode. I think everything, there's a version of this character that is like

hokey or corny or boring. And I thought she was so, I was just so moved by this. And by the way in which we watch this sort of cycle of teacher, student, teacher, student, teacher, student, of like teaching Lillia who can then impart, you know, to members of her coven, what she has learned about death, et cetera, et cetera. I just thought it was really beautiful. Yeah, I loved this as well. And it was impressive to be able to, I mean, we technically have seen this person before, right? This is the skeletal figure with death looming behind who Lillia glimpses in her.

trauma flashback in episode three when they're all making their way through the house. But it was one of those things where on the one hand, we got everything that we needed in the span of these conversations and what we were able to glimpse. But it was also, it was so good that it made me want like the full chronicles of the original Sicilian Coven because the performance was so great, but just the wisdom, right? And like, I love thinking about that too, that of course, I mean, of course, as we see, this is young Lillia sitting there physically in that chair. She is there hearing that at the beginning of her life and the beginning of her journey,

but it's only at the end when her consciousness ports back and she has all these other experiences that she's able to bring to that moment that she's able to perceive and receive these words. And there were just so many beautiful and like not just beautiful, but hard less than Like things that require you to look inward and really assess yourself and that are uncomfortable and that like require a willingness to interrogate. It's a really hard balance to pull off because it was like somewhat confrontational. Yeah. But also, but not unkind. Right.

And that's, you know, and that's this idea of the witch as a character as a figure that is constantly pushing and quirk. questioning and interrogating to get to the real truth, but not in a wicked or nasty way. Yeah, and this first thing, and that would be true across the series of Littlefinette's we get, but this first exchange really, like, primes us for that. This is a fiction you told yourself and tell yourself still, like, ah, the easy road. I mean, this is feedback, right? Like, this is a lesson. It's a feedback for me.

It's a feedback for all of us. Yeah. The next time you say, like, I'm not good at this. Are you just taking the easy road? The easy road. But I love what you're saying because the fact that that, what could just in a certain circumstance feel like a pure rebuke is really ultimately a way of saying embrace your ability. Yeah. Embrace your strengths.

Embrace the thing about you that you fear and that's terrifying, but that makes you uniquely who you are. was lovely, an important lesson. Also, to your point, the economy of this character who we definitely get less than 10 minutes of screen time with, I would say maybe less than five minutes of screen time with. Huge impact in my mind. But the way that the economy of her immediately understanding, oh, you're visiting.

Yeah, right? Yeah. And so we immediately know that she's someone who is sharp, knows everything, and we want to. pay attention to what she has to say. Absolutely. Loved it. We leave that, the easy road. Back to the hard road. Back to the ditch.

Lillia snaps back to the quote-unquote present, not quite the present. And, yeah, Jen thrills me to my core. Great, Jen episode. When she mentions the subway station. Before we see it, she mentions it. And I'm like, there is. I was really excited. What a win for the House of Our Podcast.

What a win for Sharon Davis. What a win for the Westview Historical. society, just incredible stuff. Our listener Becca wrote in about, with another musical reference, the musical Hades Town, which is a retelling of the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, and

in that musical, the road to hell is a railroad line. That's an off-repeated sort of like lyric in that, and it's a literal railroad, and it's sort of this like 1930s Depression era depiction of Orpheus and Eurydice. But Becca was bringing up some of the themes from that

musical, this idea of Orpheus having you sing through his trials to get down the road. The lyrics, do you trust each other? Do you trust yourselves in the way for me reprise? Anyway, Becca recommends this musical, so do I. She mentioned there's several versions of it on Spotify, which is true. The concept album, the Broadway cast album, and the New York live recording. She and I both co-signed the live recording. I

That's just the best version So listen to it is incredible Okay More crucially It themes this episode This Like again This dementia angle

Of all of this This idea of a forgotten woman Which is what Lily How Lilio will describe herself later This idea of confusion Which again feeds back to that Castle Rock comp to the episode The Queen

I just thought this was like really really moving. Yeah. And again, in an economy of lines. Yeah. One of the things I really liked about this, the you think on Badi is that it sequence is that she's surely right, right? You know, like that people throughout her many years have, right, thought something like this about her, even though the gaps went away and now they're back, that this is like, and the reason that that's not just. sad but really interesting to me is because Lilia stood there in her shop, her front for

Lilia's leggings, and said to Agatha during the recruitment phase for the Covenant in episode two, no, I didn't read your, yeah, I didn't, I didn't do any reading here. Like, I know who you are because of your reputation. And so Lilia resents, as she should, this false perception that other people have of her. But she's doing that to Agatha. And part of the reason the show has worked as an ensemble is because the characters make similar mistakes in all directions. And so part of the reason that they're able to ultimately, like, grow is because they recognize in somebody, in themselves eventually, something that they, like, resent in someone else or the other way around. And that's been a very satisfying, like, I think, you know,

we'll talk a little bit more something else later that happens in the episode that's, like, a very a potent example of this, but they're all on uniquely, truly individual journeys. There are specific things happening for all of them that are about their histories and their presence and their futures. But they're connected to each other in a way that is really heightening the impact of the shared experience. Like when we have a moment, like Lily is turning the card and embracing my coven. You feel that so keenly, and it's not in any way diminishing our ability to understand

her journey, it's the opposite, right? Because we have this investment in her journey through this episode and through the season, then we understand what it means for her to embrace them as her coven. It's like, that's where, again, the short episodes, that's just amazing to me, actually, that there's been enough room to do that

for that many different characters. The journey of, I mean, we get an on-the-nose version of this when we zip through time again and we see Lillia say, at first we didn't like each other and now I love you guys. That's a bit like, you know,

just, saying it. But if you compare Jen's reaction to meeting Lillia, which is you need a chemical peel to like, and again, that is sort of age-based. This idea also, this idea of like aging for a witch who was centuries old, you know, to your point about suppressing, tucking away, putting away your power, your ability. Did that have any sort of influence or impression on her aging versus Jen and Agatha who were also centuries old.

Right. Yeah. And what that means to be an older woman walking through the world and how the world perceives you because of that

and the frailty that they assume you have and all that sort of stuff. I thought that was incredible. Let's listen to Lillia and Jen talk about this. The flow of time is an illusion, Jen. Most people don't realize that.

When I was a child, experienced my life out of sequence. I would get these flashes, these gaps. Now it's happening again, and it's getting worse. That sounds terrifying. Why is it getting worse? Maybe because I'm close to the end of the room. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be

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You know what? Hit me even more than that was just the, the thing that comes right before that beautiful exchange we heard, which was just the, no, tell me, I mean it. Yeah.

Like, just giving a shit. Like, actually giving a shit, right? Not making fun of somebody, not diminishing them, not making them feel like weird or small. This is a group of people who, like, society at some point has made feel like on the outside.

And so when they do that to each other, as we've talked about across the season, it's even more tragic. Like they're allowing that like noxious rot to creep into themselves and then they port that out to each other. So like for Jen to do that, so like, no, like explain to me. I actually want to understand. Just felt like the most monumental thing. On, as I've mentioned on trial by content, the last few weeks, we've been watching all these witch movies.

And so I rewatch the craft this week. And the craft is a movie that I love gets, you know, gets several nods in this show. But the craft is a movie. movie about a group of teenage girls who find, like, sisterhood in power with each other against the people who are bullying them or treating them like crap and all this or stuff like that. Right. And then they turn on each other.

And then they pull each other apart. And watching the craft and thinking about the show at the same time, I was like, that feels so teenage girl to me. It feels so right. Yeah. Absolutely. That you would turn on each other, distressingly. but I really like this version of the story that we're getting where it's like

and the question of who is who or what is the enemy is something that it's going to like come up again at the end here. Yeah. But I like this idea of, yeah, to your point, overcoming this like overcoming the way in which they have bought into like the patriarchy essentially. It's real. And just sort of, you know, seeing each other. I thought, too, just hearing Lillia talk about this, the emotion, you know, the sobs, like, starting to kind of choke out.

It's getting worse. Yeah. So, so moving and sad and painful, incredible performance. And to think about how over centuries of your life, it was bad, got better, got worse, it wouldn't matter how active and present, the gaps and the flashes were at any point. It always would have been a thing that had happened to you. And so you carry it with you every second. That's what I was trying to get to earlier is this idea of like when it comes back. If it's something you feel like you have whatever word you want to need, it's mastered, I don't know, put away.

I was thinking of it like when I don't want to get like, I don't say like a specific illness or anything like that. But it's just sort of like if you have a medical condition and you feel like you have cured yourself of it. And that is a thing that had happened to you. And then it comes back in the terror of that. Right. And also for someone like Lilia, that terror being associated with like childlike terror. Yeah. I was thinking a lot about the Sixth Sense and Haley Joel Osmond's character and this idea of like, to your point about like, oh, that would be kind of cool to see dead people.

Right. No, it's terrible. Yeah. Yeah. And so. No safe harbor ever. But then he learns to embrace it, which is, you know, spoilage with six cents. A lot of spoilers to the six cents there.

Okay. So this is the moment when she says, you know, when she says it's coming back, because I'm nearer the end, this is a moment where you and me and everyone we know, we're like, well, that's a wrap. That's a wrap on Lillia. Yeah. But it did not, for me at all, diminish the power of the ending of this episode. And that is something that I think again and again and again. Yeah. You and I might be on a slightly similar pages with the death reveal. But like, I would say with the Billy Reefil. reveal. It's about execution. And that was the Billy moment was such a moment that it was like, even though we knew from day one who that was, it was a moment. Landed. And Lilia, even knowing she's definitely going to die and probably in a way that she's sacrificing herself and embracing death and all this other stuff. Yeah. Did not diminish the way this episode lands at the end.

No, I think I agree. I think for me, it ultimately heightened it because we feel so, I mean, the like, of the, maybe I'm close to the end. Of the road. Okay. Oh, oh. Oh, no, they mean of her life, and that is the end of the road. Oh, it's all, it's all connected. The fact that it felt so clearly like we were marching toward that made then the confidence. And it was such an assured moment for Lillia when she said, I am the traveler. She knows. She could be seconds, minutes, you know, it's there.

It's happening. Does she try to run? Does she just look up and accept it and wait for the swords to appear? to pierce her heart, no. She's like, I will be in control. It's a, it's the, we can, and we can, we haven't seen her entire life, but we can glean from what we do have access to. Like, this is a rare level of agency and acceptance, and that's the beauty of it. So the fact that we know she's about to like, fucking bite it made it actually all the more satisfying to watch the choices that she makes in the moment. Which is what the, this is why I picked a clip at the beginning. What will you do

with the time you have left is what her mistress asked her. Right? And she's like, she picks the road on the left. She knows what she's walking towards. When I was talking to my friend Danielle about this last night, she brought up, she's like, what's the Hitchcock surprise versus suspense thing, right? You can surprise someone with Lillia's death or you can let us know she's headed towards death.

And so every step she takes, we're thinking about that too. Yes. All right. So we jump forward to the castle. And Lillia gets tackled by Agatha, mid-Rid. read to avoid a dropping sword. Yeah. And she angrily confronts Billy, who, as you pointed out, is confused because we already

quite, we already said this. I thought we were cool. We are not cool. Teenager. Damn. Damn, using his full name. Fantastic stuff. I would also just like to say that I believe did you not see imminent impalement in

your future is a nod to Pietro. It has to be. Oh. You didn't see that come in, like recurring bit, which is like not my favorite thing. that's ever happened in the MCU, but that felt like a little, a little Pietro nod right there. Not the last P.H.O. nod maybe in this episode? Because we close out with a Jim Crosi song, which plays over a different Pietro and a different franchise. Okay. And then Billy and Lillia have this one-sided conversation about his power, about Alice, where he is reading her mind and responding to it.

Love this. And I really love this too. It is, again, slightly disorienting for us until we sort of are able to track what's going on and thinking about what Billy said in the last episode about when he can hear thoughts. He says, so this thing, he said this too, his lovely boyfriend. So this thing happens when I'm with someone I care a lot about and they're having intense feelings. So what this tells us is he cares a lot about Lillia. Yes.

And Lillia has very intense feelings about what happened to Alice. Yes. And all of that is. Unlike me. No, I'm kidding. I love Alice and I mourn her. No, you don't give a shit. It's fine.

Coventude. Yes. Covenation. Yes. Covenation is good. Coventude is very good as well. I also just loved that this was, because again, like, Billy and Lillia are different. Their powers are different.

Their experiences are different. But when you watch this conversation, this one-sided exchange and we've just been moving through time with Lillia, it's like this, we are watching this scene, this exchange between two people who are not experiencing in their own unique. ways, existence in a common fashion. Right? And like for Lillia, that's the way her mind is bouncing through time. For Billy, it's the fact that he doesn't need another person to speak in order to be able to converse with them. And like, that's not linear. It's not common. And so even though it's distinct for each of them, it is a thing they share, which I loved. And what is a covenant, if not common cause of people who can only understand the unique thing that you're going through.

Agatha called Lillia Dory. Great stuff. Which is objectively funny. But Jen defends Lillia, which again, this is just a great protective Jen episode,

and especially coming so fresh off of Jen being number one angry accuser in the Cabin in the Woods episode. Yes. I also thought this was a moment where when Jen says,

so trust me when I say, I say you're not mad at the kid anymore, there's a version of the show made by different people. So not that I did not actually fear that it would be this version, but there's a version of this where that is just using Lilia's power as a shortcut, right, as a way to like not have to deal with all of these scenes and exchanges. And ultimately, those are, again, not just like plot mechanics, but they're going to be key breakthroughs between these characters, or it's going be interesting for us to have to confront the fact that it actually wasn't because of the bootstrap paradox. It's like this information just always exists in this loop, in this story.

And that's like, so I didn't actually doubt that we would like see the things we needed to see in the course of the episode. But I was really thinking about how many versions of a show like this would be like, well, this is how we can use the power to our advantage to not have to actually confront how this would work. It's like when Lily was like, I thought I could just skip this entire muddy walk through the tunnel park. Yeah. Yeah. I had that thought.

I was thinking about that and I was maybe like my third time around where I, I sort of satisfied that. Not that you're not dissatisfied by it, but I sort of satisfied it in my own brain because I think that conflict resolution comes from the mind reading convo. Like that's them hashing it out. So it does happen. It just happens out of order for her. We get the focus up Calderu.

We can be culturally offended later line. Incredible. Wonderful. And then Billy asked Lily about the sigil. Yes. And he says, I'm glad you're here now. And she says, because now you need me. That does like a witch. Because now you need me.

Now he can manifest the things that he needs and make them come before him. We'll come back to that. But yeah, I saw who you were and who you would become. We'll talk about that more later as well. Anything else you want to say about this? So I was thinking about this last episode when we watched Lilia decide to place the siginal on Billy. And I didn't end up mentioning it in the pod and we didn't talk about it. But it was really on my mind again here.

I don't know how much it's on the show's mind. So I don't think we need to linger on it. But I thinking about free will in the context of Lilia's power is really interesting to me. Like I think what she says here is very nurturing and purruring. protective and like the instinct is right, the intention is right. But I am sort of like, is that your decision to make? I just think that that's true of all. I think you, like, I think this is similar to something else you're raising. And I think what's just true about all of these witchy practices is they are like one stiff breeze away from villainy. Yeah. And when you have this

kind of power, like, what do you do with it? And I think that's so fascinating. Like, you want to protect this young person from having to face all of these things. But like, you don't get to decide that. And I think this is an episode that's very tender toward Lilia. But Lilia doesn't get to decide that about William, about Billy, about the Kaplains, about Wanda, about Vision, about Tommy, about any of them, right? And so that's, I don't know. That's, again, that's interesting to me.

And that makes it richer text because the characters are also complex. I think it makes it better. Okay. We zip back through episode clips again. Lillia muttering, like, stop, stop, stop, stop, painful. Traumatizing. This is where I was thinking the most about the haunting of Hillhouse episode

with the Bent Neck Lady, because there's a, which you will never see. Bent neck lady is an absolute no for me. Haunting and then Bent Neck Lady. No. Hill House also just sounds terrifying. Skip ahead if you don't want any info on haunting of Hill House, but there's a character. I mean, all the kids in Haunting Hill House are traumatized because they grew up in a haunted house.

But Nell is this little girl who grows who all of her life saw this very scary bent neck lady in moments in her life. Complete trauma, gave her sleep paralysis, all the sort of stuff like that. And then we loop through time and find out that it is actually her. She like. Oh, no! And so she then has to zip back through time as the bent neck lady. traumatizing younger versions of herself. And she's just going, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the whole time.

So I was thinking about that. That's upsetting. It's just so, I have maybe never cried harder than I cried in that episode of television. It's so sad. It's very good. Let's cleanse our palate with another treat from the maistria, please. Tell me about your life now. What?

Are you rooted in nature? Not especially, no. Are you nimble with your craft? If I was, I wouldn't be here. Have you a coven? Huh. He begat. And which requires a coven?

What for? It didn't work out for me the first time. It's sure not going well now. It's better to be a hermit, to be a fraud. So much fear, even now. Please just tell me how to control what's happening. Your task is not to control. but to see.

It means a lot to me that we were both thinking about Tom Bombadil in this moment. I wrote Stranger slash Tom Bomb in my notes. Tom Bomb. Yep. I miss him. Same. And his Hedgehog teapot. Very much.

Same. Which requires a coven. So good. This idea of not controlling from Rings of Power, as I mentioned. And then I kind of like, the next time you text me and you're like, I'm not feeling very well. So, like, every Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, yeah.

I'm going to say, are you rooted in nature? Are you nimble with your craft? Gorgeous writing. Are you rooted in nature? Are you nimble with your craft? Nimble with your craft. Sensational. Just as kickato.

What a shame. Okay. So I really, really, really, really loved this. And your task is not to control, but to see. All of it is, all of the language and phrasing is beautiful. Again, like just like with the earlier scene, there's a, you're not. doing this the way you're supposed to do it. But all of that is rooted in embrace who you are.

And so, like, Lillia's trial, Lillia's lesson is one of embraced, right? Embracing community, sisterhood, the coven, embracing who you are. Embracing, like, this thing that the fact that, like, her power and her ability, the thing that she was able, like, when we hear her talk about, like, warning the coven about the fever that was going to take them all. And it made, it's not just that, you know, we've heard elsewhere in the series cast out of villages and all this, like, other people fear her. It's that, but also it's like feeling like a pariah, but it's also feeling like it made no difference, right? So it's all of that. And the, the, the have you a coven, what a shame or which requires a coven,

what for it didn't work out for me the first time, really made me think about. when we think about Wanda Vision and Agatha all along as a shared text, right, as part of the same story? What are these stories about? They're about a lot of things. That's part of why they've been so compelling. These are both stories about what you do when you lose something or when you lose somebody. Like where was Wanda's coven? Where were the Avengers for Wanda? Why was no one checking in on Wanda? Still a great question to this day. But like what I think what I love most about it is that it's a story that acknowledges and actually ultimately like accepts that people make mistakes and do bad things when they feel like they have lost something. And that doesn't make them inherently wicked. They can work their way back if they find people who can help them. That's just a beautiful, beautiful lesson. In terms of the specific questions she asks here, I don't want to read the email we got from Nina that I really loved. Nina writes, as little girls thinking about our futures, we are trained to ask, who will I marry? Will I be rich? What will my job be? I was thinking about the lyrics of Ksarasa. Anyway, and pondered those questions. How different is the expectation of life when the questions are, are you rooted in nature, nimble with your craft, part of a coven or community? The values behind these questions are so potently different from those we usually see in Western culture. The craft, one here obviously relates specifically to witchcraft and magical power, but the nature of it goes beyond what in normal context asking what is your job is asking. Your craft can be your job.

It's our craft. We can talk about our deepest passions with the people we care about. Wonderful. But it can also be your passion, your side hustle, Lillius Likings, your art, your spirituality. It's a much wider question about where the true value lies in your life, which sometimes aligns with your finances if you were able to be paid to do what you love, but often does not. And I just really loved that idea. Yeah. Are you rooted in nature? Are you nimble with your craft?

Have you a coven? Do you have a community? Yeah. I love this. Also that like this idea better to be a hermit of fraud. Yeah. To your point that you keep hitting that I love this idea of like them falling victim to. Yeah.

The fact that Lilia has, in a slightly annoying fashion, I would say, been constantly hammering this question of, you know, they have all these terrible stereotypes, all these like terrible, broad, offensive stereotypes of witches. Right. And here she is playing the medium, playing the fraudulent medium, doing exactly the thing that she's railing against. Back in the ditch. Back in the ditch. Yeah. She says she hid this part away because all she saw was death. and to your point, and it didn't help anything.

And that's just tremendously devastating. It really is sad. What did she make of her? This is when she finds the spell book. Tucks it away. She'll give it to Billy at the end. But she does not show it to Jen. Mention it to Jen here.

It's very, my back is turned to you and I'm tucking it away. It's like a very secret act. Did it feel secretive when she gave it to Tina's he was walking through the door? Less so. but something about the framing of this shot and the look we kind of linger on her as she's looking at it we can see more than we've been able to see before like the engravings on the cover of it

is she clocking what this is does she know how it will come into play we'll get to later parsing what she says to Agatha so she obviously has a sense of what awaits like it was just notable to me that she didn't say oh I found teen Spell Book. Yeah.

I wonder why. Yeah. Great fun. I love it. Jen and Lillias bought the bookcase. Very Matthew McCona and interstellar, which our listener Sarah pointed out. I love that. And we're back in the castle.

And this is Lillia, nimble in her craft. Confident in what she needs to do here. She's not quite right yet, but she's still confident. insisting that things have to be done in a prop order, shuffle and cut, and everyone's impatient, and she's like, no, we're going to do this the right way. I love this. You know what else I loved about? So speaking of just, like, the framing again? The suit of armor? Yeah.

It's just like Alice is there with them. Aw. Right? Beautiful. That made me really happy because I love Alice and did not think it was okay that Agatha killed her. I would just like to keep repeating that in case there's any confusion. I was like she was there with them. I also thought who massacred the spread was iconic.

Do you love Alice or do you love the idea of Alice? Because Alice isn't just a suit of armor. You know, she's a fully fleshed out person with a heart and a soul. Yeah, and a very cool tattoo. A very meaningful tattoo. Billy asks, am I William or am I Billy? And I have a lot to say about that. Hit me.

I'm going to say it later in Dairy Corner. But I have a lot to say. about it. And then she explained, I loved this sequence where she just like very efficiently and very confidently explains the spread, explains the safe patch is con. And like, it was so, it was just crystal clear. I just loved it. Yes.

And we needed this info. It was going to come back around in a second. But I'm just like, I wasn't confused at all. This is also a great example, not only of like efficient, tidy explanation and your story, but something we talk about a lot across the things. we cover where it's a very rich and rewarding thing for the people who want to then go to like tarot corner TM, right? But you don't have to do that at all.

You have all of the information you need here to understand what the characters are going to be doing in the rest of the episode and what it will mean to them. And then there are so many little touch points for you to access further if you're interested. It was great. I love it. Anything you want to say about T. reading which gets cut off here.

Well, I thought certainly, obviously, the first card, the magician. Great stuff. You have enormous potential, the ability to turn all of your goals into reality. Dun, done, done! Turn all of your goals into reality by perhaps manifesting this version of the road. Enticing, delicious. Very fitting, indeed. The sun.

Good fortune, joy, reunion. Billy gets very, it perks up. Reunion. Tommy. So that's nice. And, you know, the swords are falling. Agatha and Billy, it's not actually for them. It's Lillia's trial. She's the traveler. But again, as we said earlier, that doesn't mean we're not learning meaningful things or like glimpsing clues that actually will pay off.

I have a different interpretation of the card and we will get to that in theory corner. I'm very excited to do that. Okay. Billy's reading is cut off because Lillia Zaps back through episode clips again. to reach her maister for the third but not yet final time. Yeah. And we get the clip that opened today's episode and I just loved it because again we are the, I'm a forgotten woman, then remember yourself?

Yeah, that's the line of the season. That I'm just going to be, I think I should like write it on my mirror or something like that. Yeah. Then remember yourself. Yeah. I mean, this is like, this is the, it's a different lesson than what is grief, but this is the what is grief of this series, right? This is the line that I think people are going to be like quoting and telling themselves and telling other people.

Maybe also that. There's room for all of it. Yeah. But I mean, this is a story, as we have discussed at length, about community and sisterhood and coventude. Covenatund. Covenation. Covenatine. Coventude.

But in that line, it's never going to leave us because of platitudes at least. So there's that. Then remember yourself, you can't embrace the community. You can't embrace other people if you're not able to embrace yourself. And I love that then it's like. To paraphrase the bard, Rupal. If you can't love yourself, how the hell you're going to love someone else? Exactly. And I, you said chicken in the egg earlier and like I like that it's not, because I think that this can, when there's a lesson like that in a story, there's always the risk that it's going to be like, well, wait, what if I can't get to that point on my own? Right? You're telling me the people who I make my way toward are going to be the ones who help me, but I can't do that unless I'm willing to like love myself, but I can't love myself. It's another paradox, right? And I really love that the show is like, there's no, it's a, it's a,

But they're all entwined with each other. Yeah. Right. And the, the, the, the, the, that openness, that willingness to embrace yourself and others, it's happening like in tandem. I love that for the characters in the show in a way that it's not linear. Just like Lily's story isn't linear. And I, I think that makes it more powerful.

I think that's so beautiful. I think if we go back to what we were talking about, you, the line you were pointing out with Jen, like, tell me. Yeah. Like, remember yourself. Yeah. But a way to remember yourself is for. someone to care enough to ask you, tell me. Beautiful. And then we get this, part of this is this concept that I think we really need to

hold dear in our hearts and minds as we consider Rio's role for the next two episodes of this season of death not being something to fear necessarily. You talk about it like it's a comfort. Yeah. It's what we all have in common. Death comes for us all is something we heard Lillia say in episode five and her mindstra says here. Do you want to take us to Harry Potter Corner, Deathly Hallows Corner? Yeah, I mean, I've already mentioned the Doubledore, you know, Sorcercerer Stone to the well-organized Mind.

Death is but the next great adventure. But of course, what does that lead us toward? It leads us toward the, you know, the tale of the three brothers in Deathly Hallows. And he then greeted Death as an old friend and went with him gladly and as equals. They departed this life and the third Peverell brother taking the hand. And it also made me think it made me think not only of of Dumbledore and then the three brothers, but of Gandalf,

because it's very like return of the king. Death is just another path, one that we all must take, right? So many of our greatest wizards are here. Like Buffy Vampire Slayer? There you go. But in Buffy Vampire Slayer, there's this long, death is your gift.

Death is your gift. Is like a really resonant line for me. Death's hand in mine as the line from the Witch's Road of this very much like common cause. Here we go together, you and I. or to go back to Emily Dickinson, like that poem, because I could not stop for death,

he kindly stopped for me, the carriage held but just ourselves in immortality, he slowly drove, he knew no haste, and I had put away my labor and my leisure to for his civility,

for his civility. Like this idea of like, death kindly stopped for me, his civility. Watch the TV show Dickinson or read more Emily Dickinson, you will not regret it. Yeah, I mean, like,

this is something that has come up a lot in our favorite text because it is something that people who care about emotionally resonant storytelling will think about things matter because they end and that doesn't mean the end is something to dread. It can be a beautiful thing. And we think of then like death as this, again, the specter, you know, looming behind. I mean, they didn't do it us any favors in that regard at this episode. No.

No. But like the way that that has right. been this haunting thing, this thing to fear and try to evade and associated with all of this trauma. Like that is really then a lesson and a trial that Lillia has to work her way through. I loved the swing of the camera when Lillia starts to realize what the fall means, like, that it's what is awaiting her and seeing her own life from this other, this shift. We swing, you know, on the other side. It's like she's on this other side now of understanding. I thought that was just like a great little visual touch.

The camera's behind her, my estromer, we're on this side and then we stay up to this other side. I was waiting when it started to do that, I was waiting for her to like turn into her younger self again or whatever because that's the kind of thing you do when you want to hide and edit or something like that. But it was just sort of like her figuring it out. I thought that was really cool. I agree. Jack Schaefer, great camera work. Or to your DP as well. And then we've been talking a lot about our guy Desmond Hume and the constant.

But I was thinking spoilers for lost, a television show that I love, Mal loves, and Jack Schaefer loves. so you should watch it. The best. Charlie Pace. The greatest hits and looking glass an episode of television that we have already talked about with the prestige TV needs. But this idea of like Charlie Pace is a character

who hears again and again and again until he believes that you're going to die, brother. So what are you going to do? Right. You know you're headed to her death. What are you going to do with the time you have left? You know, you mentioned Hold the Door earlier. And I was thinking not only about that

Season 6 episode of Game of Thrones, but then thinking back to when they finally reached the Three-Ead Raven at the end of season four. Again, spoilers for another show that we're not talking about actually on this episode of TV, but that he knew what would happen

from the moment he left, he knew when he went anyway, which was about Jojin. But the way the camera lingered on Hodar in that moment, and then how, like, rewarding that is to revisit. And just like, yeah, thinking about the rare and like courage taking many forms and like and I'll stick with

Thrones. You know, we talk a lot about like, you know, a man can only be brave when he is afraid. Like the way that fear and courage are linked and inform each other and how hard it is to move toward this thing that you know is coming. And in terms, again, of like the compact nature of this episode and this season, it's amazing, it is amazing to me that it was not. not less impactful to do this with Lilia in this span of time. And when she kind of comes to this like, oh, right, falling, like, yeah, later. I was falling. I will fall.

Really landed. And I just love to, like, you know, the fact that she was not, like, in the, to get my power back, is it gone? Where did it go? This is not the true reason. she and then it's interesting to think back through the season and be like right yeah yeah like she has her power right we see like when they are calling the corners in the first place yes both alice and lilia have colored fire in their hands for a second before they're like that's what she

wants right yes right don't don't blast me bitches you know and so like she was not bound. Nobody took her power, but she was afraid to use it. And that's actually like as much of a loss as any other. Yes, devastating. Yeah. And like the fact that that gives, again, common cause for Jen and Lillian. I put it away or someone put it away for Jen. Two roads diverted in Yellowwood. No, they're in the yellow version of the trial. They're in the tunnels. Wow. Robert Frost. Welcome to House of R. Great to have you. Always welcome. to virgin a literally yellow wood. Jen's like, the exit, a subway.

There it is. We do have questions about why a town like Westview would ever try to build a subway, but those may not ever be answered. But Jen's like, the way out, Lillia's like, I got to go this way. I would love for you to come with me. And she doesn't even say, I know you come with me because I've already seen it. I hope you'll join me. I hope you'll join me.

Why? Because you are my sister in the craft. I love this, especially two-gen, the character who we heard kind of weaponized the, because we're sisters in the craft when they were trying to punish Agatha. In episode five, that really just tells you a lot about the progress that they've made again individually and collectively, which I really loved. And I just thought the way even that Lillia said, like, almost euphorically, I can see all the pieces falling into place the gaps are filling in.

I found it really moving and also kind of chilling in a very satisfying way because she is happy But coming to the end To be coming to the end She's happy to have this understanding But she knows what it means And that brings her That brings her comfort and peace

So we get Lilia's reading And again Pat upon I know what I did wrong Yeah And then she just It's me I'm the traveler I thought this was incredible

The just card after card And the connection To every prior episode of the show And all the cards That had come up And we've been calling them out It's so satisfying We've been calling them out

There are still some visual moments that I didn't clock at the time, like, Agatha with the three branches behind her, mimicking the card. So, like, there was some imagery I did and some that I didn't, and I loved all of that. So, Lillia, Queen of Cups. Yep. The traveler, the Coven, Three of Pentacles. What's Missing?

Alice, Night of Wands, Path Behind, Loss. Jen, High Priestess, Path ahead, Growth and Discovery. Agatha, Three of Swords, Obstacles, Heartbreak, Grief. Billy, Windfall, the Tower reversed. And Rio, Death, Destination. Mm-hmm. We'll talk more about Billy and the Kevin later. Yes.

We've already talked a little bit about this idea of like what you're the path ahead, Jennifer. Trailer, spoiler, skip ahead if you don't want a trailer spoiler. We have seen in the trailers, Jen crawling out of the ground into Westview. Yeah. Just like through the top of the subway car, presumably. Just a hop, skip, and a jump above the subway car. Yeah. So, like, she's making it out.

Mm-hmm. But this is a question that I want to put this here because I think Jen being the path ahead is a good answer to this email that we got from Brooke. Because as we were talking about earlier, this idea of Agatha sacrificing herself. And we have already seen Lillia sacrificed herself in this episode and Alice sacrificed herself in an episode. So this is what Brooke wrote. If it's true that the ultimate intention of this show is a set up and developed Wiggin for the Young Avengers project, And Agatha's ultimate journey on the witch's road is to sacrifice herself for Billy's safety. And again, I think this is the logical conclusion of the story they've set up.

Then the logical extension of this delightfully witchy feminist story has been written entirely in service of a male character, meaning that to some extent, they're all getting fringed for him. And frankly, I think that kind of sucks. And it means that Agatha's story isn't even really about her. I'm really, really hoping that the writing team is able to ensure that this is Agatha's story at the core of this miniseries and not using Agatha as a vehicle for someone else's success

in the MCU machine. So I have been thinking about that before I got this email from Brooke. And I see and register and have had fleeting flashes of this concern myself. I just really trust

Jack Schaefer that it won't feel that way. Yeah. Even it will depend entirely on execution and I don't mean like killing someone. I just mean how it's deployed. Yes.

Will this feel like Agatha's story? Will this feel like a satisfying conclusion to Agatha's story? Yeah, this is... I've had a couple moments where I thought about this as well, kind of anticipating this outcome, but I'm with you. How it's executed will be about determines the success of it. I also don't really worry about this.

And I think... This feels to me like almost the flip side of like, you know, something I talk about incessantly with like the idea of stakes with Infinity War, right? And just because the characters came back doesn't mean the movie didn't have stakes. Because like life and death are not the only outcomes that matter and that's part of the lesson of the show and part of the lesson of this episode. And so I think this is like a really interesting email and a valid thing for people to be thinking about. if Agatha dies and Billy lives, that does not to me mean that Agatha, that Agatha's story was just about Billy making it to Young Avengers. And it doesn't mean that the show was just about that. I just don't think that's the case.

And so, like, I think it depends on deployment. It can't, there is a version, which I do not think Jack Schaefer is capable of making. Yeah. But there is a version of this story where I agree with you that, like, everything is not all one thing. You know what I mean? It doesn't have, just because her story ends here doesn't mean her story was only about launching Billy because whatever choice she's making is an evolution of her character.

Yeah, exactly. The story we're watching, and I agree with you on that. I think you and Brooke and I have all seen bad versions of this story. And I think Brooke and parts of ourselves are well within our rights to be wary just because it has been done badly in the past. and we're hopeful it won't be done back. Yeah, absolutely. And, well, you know,

what was her final judgment then until we see it? I think a character who went to Westview seeking Wanda's power, working her way toward a place where after finally being able to look at her own pain and the mistake that she may be made before and how she lost her son

and what she did with the dark hold and all the stuff that we don't totally know about yet, and we'll, I soon find out in the next two episodes, it's maybe making the choice between, and obviously we're making a lot of assumptions in the prompt and answering and addressing the prompt, but power is not the thing that, that's not the fork in the road that I'm going to choose, right?

I'm going to, that to me would be, that would be a lesson learned and like a life well-lived, even if Agatha doesn't make it out and Billy does. So, yeah, I agree. I just have a lot of confidence and trust in the story. I think it's a completely understandable thing that this would be a worry that modern superhero viewers had. While we're on the Jen subject, this idea of, like, her, the parting words from

Lilia are you're the path ahead, Jennifer. Yes. Autumn pointed out the parallel between the end of episode three where Jen literally shoves Lilia out of the way to get out first through the oven door. Yeah. And the end of episode of where Lilia pushes Jen out to close the door on her, that it was beautiful. Or Jen, I would say, or Jen staying in her.

her circle in Alice's trial when teen, yeah, what do you live in that circle now? You know, like, what a difference? This is like, I mean, there are ways in which this is Jen's stories what this episode is making me feel. So I think, and the fact that in episode three, Agatha said that the work that Jen was doing was important. Yeah. I left you alone.

Right. Because the work you were doing is important. And we took that to mean kind of literally maybe birth work or whatever it was. but what if there's something bigger here for Jen High Priestess? I love it. Questions. Agatha is the obstacle. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, great stuff. But to go back to the explanation of her card, Three of Swords, it's heartbreak and grief. So is the obstacle Agatha as antagonist, or is the obstacle the trauma that Agatha has experienced that she has to work through? Sorrow. Conflict inside the human heart. Would you say it's the only thing worth writing about?

I might. The death reveal. You want to talk about this. Tell me your thoughts and feelings. I did not like this. You didn't like it. No. I'm sorry.

I just, I, I, there's something slightly awkward about it. Yeah. Yeah. It felt. I think part of the awkwardness was them trying too hard to make her tableau into the tarot card. Yeah. Do you know?

Yeah. She had this like head crook had to be holding in things. It was just like a very. unnatural pose. Yeah. I think also like, yeah, there was that. There was, it's an episode where we're moving back through the series a lot. And so on the one hand, I think the way that we flash from Rio emerging from the grave in episode three to Rio saying I get my body's in episode four to the Ouija board who's here with us tonight, death, and the cackle in episode five feels very like at home and of a piece with the way the episode is broadly structured. But I

I think like unlike Lillia's flashes, which are there to stitch together the story of her life, this felt, this did the thing that I, that just I have like a pet peeve with, as you know, which is like reminders we don't need. Of things we just saw. Of things we just saw. I would agree with you except. So the idea that we were like so far ahead on this idea that Rio is death. Yeah.

I would like to think we would have gotten there on our own. Yeah. But what is true is that the internet got there so quickly, largely due to, a leak that happened from like a toy design that popped up online. So I think this like group think of like Rio is definitely death because we might still be stuck in like, is she death? Is she Blackheart? Is she this?

Is she that? And in that case, this reveal might have felt a bit more like, do you know, impactful. Yeah. And like I don't know. I think what you're saying about the look of the face, there was something about it. It's just all of it felt a little. There's been so much harmony and rhythm in the. in the show, everything feels like it's like the right frequency.

And this just didn't. It felt like a pitch off. Yeah. And I think some of it is just even the like Rio is like the very sort of dramatic. I just, it did not. It felt very, fell flat for me. I do. So I had a chat with a bad baby, a listener who was also a co-composer of the show and was

the co-composer on Wanda Vision as well. Delightful. Michael Paris gave us. I hope, Michael, I hope I pronounced your last name correctly. We just had a little chat on the phone earlier today because he just wanted to talk to us about some things. And to your point about it being kind of jarring, part of me that's slightly intentional because this is what he said about. He was, he talked to me about a few themes. Rios' musical theme.

Yeah. He was like, with the witches, we were going for something very like organic feeling, very like connected to the rooted in the earth, nimble in their craft, all those or stuff like that. He was like with Rios, we were going for alien territory with her sound, like something more foreign than the witchy world. Also wanting to capture like the duality of her character and her the natural power to her, the natural, like massive energy of her. So they used real instruments. Like he's like, I played the clarinet. You did that. But then they worked and processed and distorted it so that it sounds familiar but different.

eerie, just a little off. And so I'm not saying that as an excuse to cover something that I think you rightly sort of like didn't work for you. But I wonder if that's what they were like sort of aiming for with something that just feels like a wrong note inside of a symphony that you were sitting there enjoying. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think part of it also was like it may, it actually does make sense to me that because Lillia has been haunted by the specter of death. And because Lilia is about to die, you know, we've seen again the figure of death behind. Like, it makes sense to me that Rio would appear to Lilia and say, don't you recognize me, Lillia? That's all that, that's, I don't know, fine.

Yeah. But then the, there was something also that just felt flat about then Lillia just sort of like telling the group. You know? I'm going to like the bad boys. What can she say? I like the bad boys. That was iconic. I have no notes on that.

That was great. So Michael also said about, I just don't, I'm going to look at my notes directly because I don't want to misquote him. He says, she's not evil. She's not a supervillain. This isn't Thanos coming to wipe out the world. This is acceptance and the reality of death. This is like sort of the vibe that they were trying to get through with her theme here. For Billy.

Yeah. And this reminded me a lot of some of the stuff we talked about with Bar McCrory and Sauron and Halibrand. Remember that? Like, Barron's theme was Halibrand's theme. him backwards. So for Billy, occasionally throughout the show, they have dropped the first three notes

of the Wanda theme just as like a little fun Easter egg. Yeah. Billy's theme is not like an inverse of her theme, but it starts with a similar three note structure chord progression to make it feel connected

but different enough. Love it. Love it. I really love. But that he was like, the note he said that he got from Jack on this is that Billy, as opposed to like sort of the

bells, the Harry Potter-esque bells and all these other sort of like woodwind instruments that go with the other witches. Billy is the modern-day witch. They want synths, guitars. He's a Nemo Goth kid. Also the feminine energy of Billy as we see him fabulously and Maleficent drag in this episode. And I love the, but and also a hint of darkness. And this is to go back to your comment about like the villainy, the sinister nature inside.

of some of these witch characters that it's there and they're not ignoring that that's part of all of it, you know? Agatha also playful and bouncy but also she can be evil. That is all part of her theme. That's very important to him. When they went into Nikki's room

in the Mayor of East Town parody, they used a detuned piano playing her theme to make it feel very sort of unsettling and more than full. Love that. I love all of that. He said there's a sonic palette for all the trials.

There's a ticking clock sort of metronome vibe to all of the trial score. And in this one, more than any, you can just constantly hear the gears turning of the ceiling as is dropping the soles down. So I love all of that. And then there's a coven theme. So Lillia doesn't have her own theme. But when she, these moments where you're like, she's at the table, she's purposeful. She's putting the cards down. This is the coven theme that's playing, not Lillia's theme.

Yeah. She doesn't have her theme. But like... Right. I needed you my coven. I needed you my coven. Beautiful. So beautiful.

Beautiful. Anything else. The idea that like they wanted eras for each individual episode, the eras tour that is the Witches Road, to go along with the production design and the costumes. So that the instruments that they're using are very like, we're going to use 70s instruments. We're going to use... We're going to do John Carpenter, 80s. horror for that episode, all that sort of stuff like that. Awesome.

That is most of what we talked about. Not everything, but it was a really cool conversation. Thank you, Michael, for reaching out. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, loved it. Okay. So, Lillia holds the door. Yes.

She hands Tina's book. And then she gets off one more cryptic line about the future when she says to Agatha, when she calls you coward, hit the deck. Tell me your interpretation of this time. So my assumption is that this is about Rio. I think that's a reasonable assumption. Which then makes me nervous. Yes.

And scared and sad. Because what I want is for those two to just spend episodes eight. Well, maybe we've gone to the past in episode eight and then they spend episode nine having a lot of great sex before the end of the show. It could also be Jen. Hit the deck for some sex. Could it be that? Maybe. No. Lower decks. It can also be Jen. What if Jen calls her a coward and sort of shoots her power?

Because the idea of hit the deck is don't take the power. Say no to the power. Absorption. Evolve. Past blast me you bitches. Past what happened with Alice. Make a different choice. So hit the deck. I love this idea of like when she calls you coward. Again, my friend Danielle was like, this is. So Back to the Future, Don't Call Me Chicken coded, which I really love. It's not necessarily a trigger for Agatha that we've seen, but I just thought that that was kind of funny. But the question is, like, when she calls you coward hit the deck, so you're envisioning someone who identifies as a she blasting power at Agatha, is that just the Wanda Vision conclusion that we didn't really love? Is Jack Schaefer going to boner it and make it better this time? Mr. Bonerific.

That would be great. Bonerize it. The question, I don't think this is the case, but does Lillia have to have been there to have seen a thing in order to predict it? This is a good question. Because there was a point, certainly earlier in the season, where we assume that that was not the case because we were like, Who's speaking through Lillia?

Before we started to suss out that this was just different moments in Lillia's own experience manifesting. But if everything we've heard is Lillia from something she glimpsed and then we're seeing in this episode that she then experienced those things, does that mean? What does that mean that she's coming back? Stay tuned for Theory Corner. This is something I pulled up the subreddit that I loved, which is that as Agatha and Billy and Jen go out the door, Lillia gives Ozwatch alert. Agatha Courage, Billy Knowledge, and Jen a heart before closing off the room. And thinking about that, I was like, oh, and when she's at Billy's Bar Mitzvah, she's dressed as Professor Marvel in the movie Wizard of Oz when Dorothy. meets the wizard before she goes to Oz.

He's Professor Marvel and he's got the turban and the crystal ball and stuff like that. So that puts her in sort of like the wizard mode, which is kind of fun. I love that. I mean, we were, I was at least trying to like comp match who was who on the road. And I think especially like someone like Jen who's the panacea, the potion bottle is a, it's a little heart shape. Yeah. So that's like her tin man heart that she's carrying around. Love it.

Wonderful. I loved being a witch. Killed me. As a closing line. So good. Beautiful. So, so, so, so, so, so, so good. And then she flips the tower.

Yeah. At least five of the seven hit the swords. There are five audible. Six. Blade through spine sounds for sure. Two of the seven can fly. Right. The crow and the owl.

So they're still out there. I would say. Yeah. And we already mentioned sort of how Lillia looks different here. Very Alice down the rabbit hole. Like the way her dress, I didn't like, I had questions about her being dressed as Glinda. I was like, I couldn't really figure out thematically. But it looks very sick in the slow-mo fall.

Her like various skirts flapping around her. I loved it. And then remembering that Patty, when you go back and watch the Ballad of the Witches Road, they're trying to open the portal in the first place. Patty's part is the down, down, down, down, in the background of everyone else singing, like, the melody. Right. And she's really projecting it.

So it's tough. Let me end with you. Young Lillia with her maestra. My understanding, so I've seen some people interpret this and I disagree with this interpretation that she's looped back around and now she's going to do it differently or something like that. Because of the let us begin. Yeah.

Yeah. But I, I, to go back to that episode of. of Castle Rock, the Queen, Sissy Sui Sevesek. They, that is a story told out of time. A tragic thing happens in that story. But we end, not at the end, but middle-ish. With an upbeat memory. Right.

And that's just like kind of a very beautiful and sad, poignant, bittersweet way to end an episode of television. Yeah. And it's, you know, especially because we. heard so much in this episode about how scared and lost and sad and resentful and alone, young Lillia felt to see that smile as she sits down, like possibility, right? Yeah, hope. It's hopeful. It's a hopeful note.

And it's a reminder for us and for the character who, in the process of this embrace, got to that point of peace and comfort and acceptance of herself and an embrace of her power. Like, that young girl sitting there has a lot of horror. ahead of her and a lot of loneliness ahead of her and a lot of pain ahead of her, but it actually will be okay because she will reach this moment where she gets to smile and say, I loved being a witch. It's wonderful. I loved being a witch.

It's really good, really nice. Great season of TV. I can't believe we only have one week left, two episodes, but one week. The fuck. Can I interest you in some theory questions? Please. I'm calling this section, so who is dead, comma, act? actually. Alice hit me. Is Alice dead? No. Because? Because I think there's the setup in the story of the, okay, for a couple reasons. One, there's the protection of the tattoo, right? And I think it would be, to quote teen, kind of a bummer if Alice's trial was about, like, beating this curse and this thing that was haunting her family. And then she just sort of died anyway, though, I guess there's a like,

Well, that's life less than there too, maybe. Death is a comfort. Not like that, I guess. And I think also that feels maybe important for Agatha to not actually have killed Alice. That feels important. The tattoo plus, and we mentioned this before, her repeated line in the ballad, I'll see you at the end that she does when she sings her mom's version. Right. And then I hope this is a payoff.

When Alice finds Agatha's house at the beginning of the show without having the address. And she walked in and she's like, I used to be a cop. You'll find that's an answer to a lot of questions. And I flagged that line. I'm like, what's that telling me in advance? If Alice rolls up to the final trial and they'll be like, how did you find us? And she says, I used to be a cop. You'll find that's an answer to a lot of questions.

I don't know. I'm ready for it. The Salem 7, we think it's now the Salem 2. Covenant 2. Owl and crow Okay Oh man Lilia

Given this episode of television Yeah You and I both vehemently agree That Lilia needs to be dead Yeah By the end of this season Yeah I feel she needs to be dead now

We did not see her hear Her body hit the floor or the ceiling Yeah We only heard five smacks Yeah In regards to Alice and Lilia I feel so certain that we're going to need the entire coven for whatever happens at the end. Possible that we could get Lillia in ghost form.

Rio fucking hates ghosts. Rio hates the ghost. But I think Lillia would have moved on. So I don't know that I see Lillia as a ghost. This is a tricky one. When she pulls a three of pentacles, what's missing? Three of Pentacles, collaboration, community, singular voices, waiting to harmonize. I needed you, my coven.

So we think she's thinking about her covenant in the past. but this idea what's missing us as a true coven together. And when she was talking about the what's missing spot on the spread, she says it's the reason for your quest. It's the coven is the reason. And then if you look at the three of Pentacles card and we've referenced these tarot cards a couple times that go with each individual character on the show that Marvel put out.

You can Google this. I'm sorry, this is actually a video pod, but I do not have an image of this to show you right now. The card for three of pentacles seems to show Agatha, Jen, Lillia, Alice, Rio, and Billy holding hands, and I can only fucking hope singing the Ballot of the Witch's Road one last time. Billy's there. It's not the five, it's six of them. Yeah.

This is the coven, is embracing death in the form of Rio and embracing Billy. Yep. as their black heart. Yep. And this is, so they need all of them. Mm-hmm. So does Lillia know what happens, hit the deck when she calls you coward? Because she's there.

Because she's there. But my idea, it doesn't fit very well. Yeah. But my idea is she actually dies in the tunnel when she sees Rio. It's hard to understand because then she wakes Jen up. But time is not linear. It's not linear. Mallory.

But why else would death appear in like her regale? Yeah, that certainly seemed like when death was claiming her. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, like, is she going to be at the trial, but then meet Rio in the subway tunnels beneath Westview? I'm open to it. Okay. I'm open to it.

She definitely has to die. We really agree. Okay. William Kaplan. Is William Kaplan dead? Welcome back to William Kaplan plus Billy Maximoff equals Billy Kaplan theory. And this is one I'm really invested in. Yeah.

Personally. is the ultimate goal here re-res resurrecting or unearthing William Kaplan from inside of the body? We heard the heartbeat stop. Yeah. Young William Kaplan, who just had his bar mitzvah, seemed to have died. Yes.

This is what Billy says in episode six to his boyfriend. I died that night, and when I came back, I was different, something else, something more. Yeah. I'm not William Kaplan. Kaplan, at least not entirely. Mm-hmm. I still don't remember anything from before the accident.

In episode six, when we replay the, like, the decigiled events of episode two, Agatha says, why do you need the road? And he says, power is what I'm missing. And then she says, who are you? My name is William Kaplan. Say again, I'm Billy Maxwell. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like this is just, I'm both of those things. Mm-hmm. And we pointed out this idea that he was being called William Kaplan in that episode was a good way to distinguish between the two. But the character is Billy Kaplan. It feels so deliberate that they're not calling him Billy Kaplan yet. That it feels like the blending of the two. Billy's insistence that he has a mom, Rebecca Kaplan, the legend that you are.

We are not denying the Kaplan part of Billy. And Billy's burning question in the reading that was cut off. am I William or am I Billy? Yeah. Why not both? Part of his reading was the magician card. Yep. Which is you have enormous potential

and the ability to turn all of your goals into reality. In the comic books and in storytelling in general, there is the concept of the Demiurge, this creator figure. And in the comics, this is the mild, I guess, Marvel comic spoiler. Billy is on his way to becoming the Demiurge. Demirage to come. So this idea of his ability, the chaos magic, the creating the hex, the, all of that. But he can do massive things.

Yeah. Like perhaps bring William Kaplan back from the dead inside, like resurrect William Kaplan inside of his own body or unearth it. The what's missing. You mentioned so the sun, good fortune, joy reunion on the what's missing part of Billy's reading. You mentioned that as Tommy. The son, S-U-N, the son, S-O-N. But is it the son William? Is the reunion Billy and Tommy or is the reunion Billy and William together in one body?

Your lifeline is broken into two is what Lilia says. Right. When Lillia reads The Windfall, what is all this for? What are we getting from this quest, according to Lillia's read of her own cards? Yeah. Tower reverse, disaster destruction, sudden upheaval. But reversed, it means miraculous transformation. So the tower is, of course, related to what we see in this episode here.

Yeah. But this idea, when she puts the tower card down, she sees William with... Yes. In the tent, with the tower, car behind him reflected upside down in the crystal ball. She sees William there. This idea of miraculous transformation can Billy Maximoff turn himself into a hybrid of these two things? I really like this idea in the very very... like Wizard of Oz concept of the thing you've been looking for has been within you

the whole time. Why would we do this? The why I think is the easiest thing to answer, which is our concern that we registered last week when Agatha said, so you broke the rules, big deal, right? You found an empty vessel and you moved in. And Rio, as we were reminded in this episode in a way that you did not enjoy that very much, It's here for her bodies. So what if she's here for William Kaplan's body,

which is at least three years past this expiration date, right? Yeah. And she said to Agatha, that boy isn't yours. So if Rio's there for the body to reap the body, can she reap it if they bring William Kaplan back and put him in his body? And is that what we're headed towards this moment? And would it not be a moment of catharsis for Agatha to help say, whether or not she has to sacrifice herself to do so.

Right. Help save this boy when she couldn't save Nikki, her own boy. Yeah. I... You don't like this. No, I do. I think this is hard to pull off, but potentially for that reason, quite satisfying if they can. Wanda Vision was in many ways a story about how wrong it is to like,

play God, right? This is a very, again, Frodo Gandalf kind of idea. And it's a story now, William. Kaplan didn't get to make that choice, but it is, again, like we've been talking about a lot today, a story about, like, acceptance. And so I think when we talk about power and the craft and grief and loss,

any time we dabble with any sort of, like, reconstitution or resurrection, I think there's at least a risk of running a foul of some of the lessons of the story. I also think there's like a very practical, like, wait, is William Kaplan just kind of like in the little sidecar on the Billy motorcycle? This is what you raised last week as a concern. I think it has to be just a complete frappy on the blender. Yeah, I'm melding. And so if Billy does this.

not because he is seeking to gain something, but because he realizes that the thing he did. And also not just because he's seeking to avoid the basically consequence of the rea reaping. Because that would ultimately be selfish. From Agatha's perspective, it wouldn't, but from Billy's it would be, right? But if he does it because he recognizes that in breaking the rule what he did, even though he didn't cause the crash, was wrong? Yeah.

And that he wants to write that wrong, then there is something at play there that I think serves as a shield against those other worries. I don't want William Kaplan to just be like a tiny little voice in the back of Billy's mind. That would be terrible. If he's there and he's like, yeah, let's do some tea leaf readings. I've wanted to do it. He's like, where are my Houdini posters? Why did you take down all my Houdini posters? That would be great.

That would be great. I also think it's like, I guess another thing on my mind with it is like, I don't think we need literal William Kaplan there for Billy Maximoff to love Jeff and Rebecca. Well, he already does. Exactly. Yeah. But like, I think because in the comics to tell people who have not read the comics, and we mentioned this last week, but like Billy Kaplan with the soul, sharp, there we go. Of Billy Maximoff is raised from an infant with the Kaplan's. Yeah. And we did get a concern. email from someone being like, I don't like this idea of erasing the existence of those 13 years of that character in the comics. So what if we can just blend it? Yeah. Put in the blender.

And if it's connected somehow to him just sort of like embracing all aspects of his identity in the way. Yeah. Lily is like, I put it in a box and I put away. Yeah. Right? William Kaplan's a little box inside of Billy Maximoff. We just got to let him out.

Yeah. And if Agatha can help doing that with her. special brand of witchy therapy, which she likes to do. I'm interested in it. I like it. I think it could be great. I wonder how to do it in two episodes where it feels like William had a choice. I love, and I mean this genuinely, how you're always concerned about free will. You don't think that Billy, 13-year-old Billy is like, I would like to live and have a hot boyfriend. But does he want to, does he want someone else living in his body with him? Like, if those are the terms. Yeah, you guys.

get to come back, but I'm here too, and this is my life now, and I joined a coven and we're wicked? Can you see if we can get an interview with William Kaplan to make sure that he consented to all of this? Consent is came. Okay. Last and at least, are they dead actually Wanda Max Muff? The answer is yes. No. Absolutely not. Maybe. Zero chance that Wanda's dead, which is where we've been since multiverse madness. Zero chance. How long it will take for us to know for sure that Wanda's alive, I think, is like what you said earlier. When does Elizabeth also want to reprise the role? When she's bored and she wants to come back to San Diego Comic-Con and wow them, not as doom, but as one to max them up. Okay. This is like, look-ahead, theory corner-ish. The Green trial is what's next. We saw through the exit, through the Iron Maiden.

Yes. That were on to the Green trial. Bright and vibrant. So this is ostensibly the Rio trial. Yeah. You know, Spotify Green. Ring or green. To move back. This is, I'm about to get into light trailer spoilers. Oh, man. I love a trailer spoiler. I love to talk about trailers.

We have seen in the trailers, Aubrey Plaza, in a very pretty green Salem outfit. There's a bodice, there's a cloak, it's the whole nine, okay? You love a bodice. We also, do you think Jen was around back in the Salem days? No. I don't. Do you? I mean, she's known Agatha for a very long time. Another child sacrifice. Yeah. All this sort of stuff like that. Like, she could have. It's possible. That felt to me more like she, other people are spilling the tea.

I'm just saying if we get a flashback that's Rio and Agatha in, I'm going to call it Salem times, which is not a time, but let's just say, it's a place. I thought you, I really thought you were about to say, in bed. One apple. That would be great. Intimacy coordinator back on the menu. Jen could be there. Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't know what Salem in that time was like for black women. I don't know that I care to find out. Bad. So, yeah, will the next episode be a journey through Agas and Mine, a la WandaVision in episode seven? Are we? going to find out in episode seven what really happened with Nikki. She told Billy he could just ask her and she would tell the truth.

Is that what we get here, the true origin story of Agatha Harkness in episode seven, then episode eight. Oh, sorry, that's episode eight. Eight and nine. Billiam. Billiam. Kapama. That rolls right off the tongue. Perfect.

Anything else that you want to say? about theory or like upcoming episodes or our absolute object devastation that this show is almost over. So, okay, since we're in Theory Corner and we're in trailer or Breakdown Corner, what do you, what do you think is going on in the shot with the heads with like the hospital gowns in the room and them touching each other's heads? And what are we? I have two theories. Okay. Is it Agatha taking Billy's power to help him for good?

Is it unlocking? Because we've unlocked his memories already. Is it unlocking William? It's letting William Kaplan out of the box. Yeah. and melding the two. This is the key frape stage. Okay.

This is the blender. Or is it come inside the pensive that is my mind and journey through my memories with me? Yeah. But I think it's the William thing. I think that's what that is. And I think because I think the lighting in that in that sort of like hospital setting is purple. So that feels like it's Agatha's true trial. Yeah.

Yes. Versus the fake cabin in the woods. For sure. Yeah. Agatha's true trial awaits, no doubt. So green. Yeah. Salem flashback.

Yeah. Purple weird hospital setting. Mm-hmm. We feel like Jen will be fine at least. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. Hospital setting also makes us think of what we saw. The doctor.

Yeah. The doctor and Jen, which we definitely have more to learn with that. I don't feel like we fully extor-sized that ghost. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Okay. Fun. Okay.

Exciting. Sad. Sad. Do you think the Salem 7 are going to, the remaining two are going to play any sort of meaningful role? Nothing like meaningful. Yeah. We'll cast the final two aside just as quickly as we did these five. Maybe Agatha can be like, I'm really sorry.

I killed your mom. I don't know. The new improved Agatha. And what I also hope, if Agatha dies or if she doesn't, here's what I. I would see. Yeah, I think it would be great if Agatha could make the choice that is a sacrifice in choosing William, Willie. Billiam. And putting somebody else about herself, writing that wrong, and still make it out alive.

That would be great. I like the idea of her riding off in the sunset with Rio, whether alive or dead. Yeah. That they just, like, go and leave. And Jen's the path forward. But Agatha, either dead or alive, goes off with Rio. And a carriage? Dare we dream?

Charriot. So to recap, Mallory Rubin cares infinitely about. free will and consent and choice and not a single shit to give for Alice. You were here first. I do not think it was right that Adphe killed Alice. That does it for us. Yeah. Here on the House of Our.

I had a great time. Me too. Lovely to see you this week. Fantastic. Delightful. The road is a fickle mistress. Thanks to who am I thinking? There they are.

We can see them. We can see them today. There's Steve Allman. There he is at the control. panel. I see John Richter back with us. Is that the full suite of thanks? That's it? Okay. Thank you to John Richter. Hopefully soon to be award-winning podcast artist.

And Steve Allman on the edit, our dinner, Ranqa Pal for all of his tremendous production work. Jomea Dineron on the social. And we'll see you through tears of witchiness. next week. Bye.