House of R - 'Agatha All Along' Episodes 1 and 2 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

It's time to go down the witches' road! Mal and Jo conjure up a pod that dives deep into the season premiere of 'Agatha All Along'! The two give their overall impressions of the show and what they think about the follow-up to the hit 'WandaVision' (08:17). They then get into the first two episodes and later stop by Theory Corner to see what could be in store for our witchy crew! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. thou the road to all that's foul and fair gather sisters fire water earth

and air darkest hour wake thy power earthly and divine burn and brew with covent true and glory shall be the on down down down the road down the witch's road

down down down down the witch's road greetings and welcome and welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it's my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Westview, but also back into the House of R joining me today, wondering where I keep my jade eggs. It's Joanna Robinson. Molly Rubin, it's which season, and I could not be more overjoyed and thrilled to be with you here today. This is, I am just positively fizzing with excitement about what we're about to talk about today. Same. Same. We're here to talk about the two part. Agatha all along premiere, we were treated to

two episodes that we get to discuss today. But Joe, before we explain why our probiotic candles are perfect for both ambiance and metabolic regulation. I thought you were going to say why your pelvic floor is all over the place. Some quick program. Reminders. Sure. Over on the ringerverse. By the time you're listening to this, The Midnight Boys,

Poo! Poo! We'll have an episode waiting for you with two instant reactions in one pod. The instant reaction to the two-part Agatha premiere and the instant reaction to the Penguin premiere. So you have all of that pew-poo-pewey goodness waiting for you right now on the ringerverse,

and there's more coming because there's a Mint Edition pod as well on Transformers, It is a loaded back end of the week here in the larger ringerverse universe. Yes. Here on the House of Our. Come back next week because we will have on Thursday our deep dive into Rings of Power Episode 7. The penultimate episode of Rings of Power.

How? Almost on its staggering. Can't believe it. And then we'll be back next Friday to chat about Agatha, episode three. So normally we're spaced, you know, top and back the week, but we're going to be on the Thursday-Friday jam

for a few weeks here as we cover both rings and Agatha. You can check out all of that. Where, Joanna and how. Oh, my gosh. So glad you asked me. First of all, first and foremost, this is a video pod now. So if all goes according to plan,

there should be video episodes of every single house of R. You can watch that on YouTube. very exciting. Also, why don't you just subscribe to the pod? I think that might be a good idea, something to think about. Maybe on Spotify or your podcast listening app of choice. And then, you know, if you want to be a little extra and we support that always here in the House of R, then why don't you follow us on social? We're on TikTok.

We're on Instagram. We're on Twitter. Don't call it X. We're all over the place. So you can follow us there, you know, to. check out little clips from the video pods if you're not watching the full video pods to see what Jomey's up to, et cetera, et cetera. And then of course, as always, as ever, the email inbox is open for all of your witchy thoughts, anything you want, hobbes and dragons at gmail.com.

We don't have a ton of emails yet, but that's because we're like on a brand new show here. So, you know, we shall see. But I am really excited to get into all of the. witch stuff go. I will be, I have some witchy context here and there to add, but I am by no means and I'm an enthusiast more than

I am an expert. So if you are a literal witch listening to this podcast and you want to send us any insight, we would love to hear it because I am really excited for witch season. Go. Joe, the last

programming reminders is always the friendly neighborhood, spoiler warning. We have not watched beyond the two episodes that we will be covering here today. There might be a moment or two where we mentioned something that we've seen in a trailer for the entire season, but that's the extent of stuff that's coming in the future in Agatha. However, anything that happened in Wanda Vision, where Agatha was introduced to the MCU. Correct. Fair game today.

Anything that's ever happened in the MCU, fair game today. And we will be dusting in, well, light dusting, of some comics canon. as well. So that is all on the table. All right, Joe, we did the programming reminders. We did the spoiler warning. We don't have time for this. Everyone's sitting at home, just screamed. Just blast us, you bitches. So it is finally time to park. Put it on the merch, right? Which stuff go. Yeah, no kidding. All right. Seekest thou thy road. It's time for the opening snapshot. Steve. Your stuff.

treasures await today, Steve. I know. Goodness. I know. This is always one of the best parts of the beginning of a new run, is hearing what C has to do for the segment sounds and the sound bites. Yeah. Yeah. Great stuff.

Okay. What has Kristen Cole done? Oh, man. Bees. Always nice to get into periods from bees early in the pod. It's true. All right. We're here to talk about two episodes.

Episode one, seekest thou thy road. Episode two. Circle Sown with Fate, unlock thy hidden gate. The first episode was both written and directed by showrunner Jack Schaefer. The second was directed by Jack Schaefer, written by Laredani. These were longer episodes than I was anticipating. 42 and 44 minutes. Joanna, the titles of these episodes were song lyrics from The Ballad of the Witch's Road. It is Joanna Robinson's season. Yeah, it is for me. It's just for me. Major way. So excited. I'm also thrilled for Jack because, you know, I loved Jack's work on Wanda Vision as a writer, but this is, she directed a movie years ago, 2009 called Timer that I really like,

that is really hard to find. But that's like a very little scene movie, but she doesn't have a ton of directorial, like, credits under her belts. And so I'm just excited that Marvel's like, okay, you get another show exciting for me. and you get to direct. And that's exciting, I think, for all of us. I think she absolutely crushed it. So I'm very excited.

Yeah. Well, before we hear, like, the quick table setter of what you thought of the first two episodes, take us back just for a second while we're on the Jack Schaefer front. For anyone who might not be familiar, how'd you feel about Wanda Vision? How'd you feel about Agatha Harkness entering your life in the first place? Like, what are you bringing into Agatha all along? Mel, I loved it. So Loki is a shared passion of ours, but WandaVision is my favorite, up until this point, favorite MCU show.

I just absolutely fell in love with that show. And though I can embrace some of the critiques, plenty of the critiques that people have about the way that show ended, on balance, the highs are the highest for me in terms of MCU shows. So I was thrilled that Jack Schaefer got another. at that here. And I've actually been impatiently waiting because, you know, like, Michael Waldron did an incredible job with Loki. And then they're like, Waldron this, Waldron that in the MCU. And I'm like, where's the

open up the floodgates for Jack Schaefer? And so I'm really happy that, but patience is a virtue and I'm glad she had all the time she needed to like absolutely nail this. They didn't rush this out. So that's great. And she was at some point attached to do the

vision show and is no longer. And I kind of like that. I like that. She's just focusing on. this, absolutely knocking this out of the park, hopefully, these first two episodes, I really like spoiler. And like, Agatha, like, Agatha is a character with such like a runaway hit in Wanda Vision. Catherine Hahn, just a pure joy. And the way-

I talked about this before, but the way in which Wanda vision broke through, like, sort of niche, I mean, comic book entertainment is not so niche these days, obviously, but like the people who were watching Wanda Vision were not your ordinary Marvel viewer and the fact that it was nominated for a bunch of Emmys and all this sort of stuff. And I kind of like, I really liked that. It doesn't need, you don't need to have compo properties acknowledge in those spheres. But I really like when they are because it's just underlines the fact that this is very quality, very, can be very prestige storytelling. And I think Wanda Vision and certainly plenty of Loki and, and, and. And I'm hopeful that this, you can stack it up.

I mean, especially since we start with a lengthy ode to prestige. I can't wait to get into it. Just genuinely. Should we just give Jack Schaefer a moody crime procedural on HBO also? With haste. Yeah, with a quickness. Alacrity. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Oh, man. What did you think of the premiere? Tell us. Well, do you want to give any? sort of Wanda Vision context or did I did I blower enough? No, no, no, after the spoiler of your opinion, we can't,

we can't keep the people waiting. Tell us why you loved it. Okay, listen. I thought the Mary Beastown stuff was hilarious. Yeah. Being back with Catherine Hahn was incredible throughout. It is not a musical musical, but it has a spine,

a musical element that is not just like a one. one-off, it is like a spine of the show. The cast members that I was really excited for, like Patty LuPon and Aubrey Plaza, just thrilled and delighted, blew the doors off the joint, literally, like, just incredible. And then Joe Locke, who's an actor who I really like in Heart Stopper, but I wasn't sure, you know, he's, I'm like, how's the American accent going to be? How, you know, like, he was just really great, and he's seemingly, you know, the second lead of the show, and so a lot is writing on that.

So I thought it was really funny. I thought it was really fun, despite, you know, you and I both, because we had a long week, groaned a little when we saw the runtimes. We were like, we were hoping these would be 20-ish-minute episodes. They flew for me. I just had such a blast. So something that feels assured, put together, finished, which is something like the MCU here and there has not felt like it had been finished.

finished, funny, I'm just delighted to be in this world and on this adventure. Mallory? What do you want to say with it? Over to you. Over to you with the weekend sports updates. Yeah.

Yeah. I, so I also loved Wanda Vision. Loki is my favorite as canonically established on this podcast, but Wanda, WandaVision's definitely next for me on the TV show, Power Ranking.

And actually, this, I had, you know, return to episodes and moments and scenes ahead of multiverse of madness, etc. Yeah. But this was the first time in a while. And Wanda Vigionaire three and a half years ago.

So, like, it has been a minute. This was the first time heading into Agatha that sat down in, you know, a day and a half and watched the entire thing start to finish at the time of my life. I mean, it's a great show. It's fantastic. And, like, the highs of that show, episode seven. etc. are extraordinary.

So I came into Agatha all along with pretty high expectations. I love Catherine Hahn. Like I think she is a genuine genius and I enjoy watching her and everything that she does. The fact that this is which stuff go territory

and musical adjace and I got to look forward to covering it with you was thrilling to contemplate and anticipate. Yeah. We thought the trailers look good. We both had it super high

on our height meters. Like, we were looking forward to this and really hoping it was good. And, you know, not always, but sometimes when you come in with your hopes really high, you're let down. It happened. That was not my experience of this at all, quite the opposite. It's somehow, despite my expectations being really high through two episodes, really has exceeded my expectations for all of the reasons that you said. Like, the cast, the performance is incredible. The writing, comedic gold.

I was so good When we're You know prepping for pods And putting together the outlines Like we're obviously breaking down story And arc and theme and lore But we like to like celebrate the humor And the things that make us laugh

With a dusting here and there It was like almost impossible To not just pull every single line From the episodes into the dock Which is always a great sign Right? If the quality you're working with I thought that the The mayor

I didn't know from the the trailers that we were getting a full episode like that. I thought it was going to be like a scene or something. And it was so good that I then immediately wanted the entire season to be like that, either send-ups of different TV genres across each episode to kind of continue that connective tissue to the approach that Wanda Vision took with the decades of sitcoms. But the highest compliment I can always give, the comp I use for this always is Cavalier and Clay.

Like when you're consuming something and you're hooked on what you're enjoying in the moment and then it changes and you resent it when it changes. then immediately wherever you are then, you can't imagine it being anything else. So, like, episode two starts, I'm like, ah, fuck, we're late already? Are we done? Actually, the end of episode one. Yeah. But then episode two, when you get introduced to all of these new dynamics and you're starting

to form the coven and you realize what the vibe and the energy is going to be between the primary participants in the show, like, let's do it. And then, you know, you go back and you rewatch the trailers with the context of the double premiere and you start to anticipate what the structure of the season is going to be is. they make their way through the road and face their trials, I am exhilarated and cannot wait to cover this show for two months, which, you know, this is only our second Marvel show of the year. Like, it's Echo and this, which is wild,

based on what the clip had been for a long time. Yeah. And obviously it was not a heavy, I mean, it was a meaningful Marvel movie year in terms of the success of Deadpool and Wolverine, but it was not a heavy, voluminous Marvel movie year. And so, like, this being good, this giving people something not only to talk about and theorize over, but enjoy and celebrate. Wonderful.

It's funny because, you know, at the beginning of the year, the end of last year, when I was promoting the MCU book and people are like, oh, is Marvel over, blah, blah, and something that my co-authors and I would talk about is we were like, well, if you look at 2024, there's only three things scheduled. Well, four if you count X-Men 97, which you should. And so an echo being sort of hastily dumped is its own. thing and it was fine but not great. X-Men 97 being a smash-a-hit with us. Yes.

Yes. Obviously, when I say second show, I mean in the MCU, not Marvel. No, no, no. I know. I know. I wasn't chastising you. I was just for the bigger picture. Like, X-Many-7 we loved.

Debt Home Wolverine had a good time. It made a gazillion dollars. It is an undeniable success for Marvel. And then if this show continues the quality, which we have seen Marvel shows sort of fall off a cliff. Again, I really trust I really trust Jack Schaefer, but like, I embrace for that possibility,

but I am really hopeful that this is just going to cruise all the way through, given the level of talent. That's a good year for Marvel. That's a good rebound year for Marvel where they sort of retrenched, push things off the schedule, clear the decks, and are just like, we're going to focus on knocking these things out of the park the best way we can. And so that's

where we stand here in September. And that's you know, good, good for you, Marvel, and continue on this track. Continue to just really invest instead of like jamming the schedule full of, of whatever. So that's exciting. Is it time to dive deep? The last thing I want to say, and I sort of alluded to this, but Marvel is thinking of Wanda Vision, Agatha all along, and the Vision show as sort of a trilogy of shows,

which is really fun to think about there. I can't think of a modern. TV example of that of, you know, shows that exist in their own right, but are interconnected in that way, one season each sort of events kind of things. And I'm really excited for The Vision Show, which is supposed to come out 2026. I've already mentioned this that Terry Matalas, who did Picard, Season 3, which is amazing, is show running. So this could just be, I don't know. I'm just, I'm happy. Let's do it. Let's do it. We've never been so back. No, we've never been to Matt, not once.

They're witches, Mallory, and they sing. Okay? So, here we go. The power of one. The power of two. The power of many. Oh, man. Okay.

To all that's foul and fair. It's time for the deep death. The lingering chime. I liked it. So I did jot down in my nose speaking of chime. the little like witch hat chime looking to for Joe Holiday gift. Actual bullet point in my dog.

It's got a little devil on it. So if you can make it like, you want to make it some sort of Mephisto and yes, that's the first, but not the last time I'll say this on the podcast. Sorry, Joe. I'm making some sort of like Mephisto gift basket. I am open. Who says no?

Yeah. Fantastic news. So we're calling it the deep dive. And look, it is a deep dive. It's always going to be. a deep dive. We're excited to talk about the show, so we have a lot to hit. We are going to go scene by scene as always. However, we do have two episodes to cover today. We're at the beginning of a nine episode season. And so this will be a little zippier than the traditional house of our deep dive.

And then once we're on one episode a week, we will get to spend a little more time going beat by beat. So let's begin where the episode begins. Agnes of Westview. in those mare of East Town shoes, we begin our witchy journey, Joe, with Agatha, still trapped in this enchanted Agnes state that Wanda left her in at the end of Wanda Vision as punishment. And much like Wanda was, our dear Agnes is processing her trauma and what has happened to her and trying to figure out how to be rooted in the actual reality of her life, or in Wanda's case, to avoid it, by using TV shows. And the framing of this opening is the send-up of Merivistown.

Sensational stuff. I can't think of a better way to honor our pal, Ralph Boner, one more time. You mean Emmy winner? Evan Peters. honoring Evan Peters and Ralph,

Ralph Bonner. Quick, yes or no. Do you want Ralph Bonner to make an appearance in this season of Wanda Vision? I mean, Agha. Actually, just for me, it's like an uncomplicated yes.

Yeah. That was part of the fun thing about a rewatch. Like when you're not in the, oh my God, what does it mean? Quick Silver from the other universe. And you know it's going to be

an outfoner and you can just enjoy the performance. Yeah. It's great stuff. Evan's great. Yeah. Yeah. Sensational. Sensational stuff.

So we're also in this like true crime vibe, right? The opening credits. Unbelievable. I was like crying. I was like crying. I was just like crying with joy at how good it was. Based on the day series, Wanda, I would not know how to pronounce that. But that's the part where I was just like, they're just having fun.

Yes. Yes. They're just having so much fun. And they're just like really clever minds working in this room. And that just makes me happy. And I loved the layers of it because obviously this is like a spoof of a genre. Yeah. But then inside of it, we don't have the actor names in the opening credits.

We have the character names that Wanda assigned. So it's just like further cementing exactly what reality and experience Agnes is trapped inside of. And obviously the idea of that character, the nosy neighbor, needing to investigate that feels very like I became obsessed with true crime. Right. So all of it was just pitch perfect right from the jump. When it becomes clear later that she was just wandering around inside of her own like pocket delusion inside of like Westview. rewatching these scenes are so funny because just trying to envision what this actually looked like in reality.

Yeah. The easiest one to think about is like her and when she's talking to Herb and they're like up against the tape, it's like very much her and Herb up against the garden wall. You know what I mean? Like the hedge. Like that's that's, but like when you see what the car actually looks like later in her house, like all of it is just like hilarious. I'm driving.

Yeah. Are you? Oh, this is not a car. Great stuff. The veil before it is lifted in Folgo, we can see being pierced here and there because as Agatha is driving, she is humming.

She's humming the ballot already. So there are little elements kind of poking through. She's going down, down a road at the very beginning of the show. Down, down, down. Yeah. I can now, it's just now hearing you say down multiple times in a row, I immediately want to sing. They have an earworm.

They do. I mean, it's a banger. It's what the Lopez's do. They do it really well. Yeah. So good. Listen, I'm a daughter of the Mid-Atlantic. I'm from Baltimore.

Now, that is, it is a different subset of accent than what we were all treated to on Mayor of East Town and then. Wait, are you saying? Are you saying it's time for Accent Corner TM with Mallory Rubin TM? I just, I'm wondering, you know, we're here with Steve today. Yeah. He's ready on the soundboard. I'm wondering, Steve, could you...

We're a little fuzzy. Like, Agnes, we're trying to piece it all together. Could you remind us where Jane Doe's body is? Jane Doe, found it down here by the water. Oh, the water. Water ice. It killed me. This killed me.

Steve, I'm sorry, though. More specifically, is there like a precise location? This unidentified woman lying dead in a creek. has just got me down in the dumps. Not the crick. So good. Oh, man. This just absolutely killed me.

I love their commitment to the bit. It's sensational. We do not ever see the face, right? We see some red hair. That Agnes sees the face. Yeah, we'll get the red hair later. We get the, like, filthy and, oh, maybe some desiccated skin on the foot and ankle. We get the blackened fingertips from using the dark old.

We also get the, frankly, delicious emceesies. you fan inside joke here. She is dead though, isn't she her? Oh, she really is most sincerely dead. You never know. Wink. Because we do not believe that Wanda Maxwell is dead? Pop quiz hot shot.

Is Elizabeth Olson in this TV series? Ooh. No. Yeah. I think no. I think no is a really safe space to exist. Let's just exist in the no. Yeah, I think no.

That we will get plenty of Wanda illusions. Yes. But not an appearance. And then if we do, we could just be pleasantly suppressed. If I had to put down money. Yeah. And you gave me the choice of putting it down on Mephisto. Elizabeth Olson specifically or Mephisto.

I would put it on Mifisto. Yeah. We're picking Mephisto. They're getting me again. Every time. Here we go. We're back. Yeah.

No, I loved this. And I love it as, okay, so nosy, why did Jack Schaefer and her team pick Merivistown? Like, I don't know if she's answered this specifically, though I've read a bunch of interviews with her. She's just wonderful as always. But, like, what's funny to remember is that Mary of East Town came out, like, right around when Wanda Vision came out. Like, I was still a Vanity Fair, smiled. But it's the tail end of my time there that came out, like, right around the same time. So this is like, as she was in the midst of Wanda Vision, this was, like, also.

a similarly timed phenomenon. And then the nosy neighbor aspect, which you mentioned, the inciting incident of a dead woman and this idea that the spell that she's under here can be potentially broken because of Wanda's death. And then the other aspect of which we'll talk about a little later on that I think you've really brilliantly identified. But there's just so many layers to this. It's a clever, you know, it's a clever little pastiche, but it also has like five other things going on at the same time.

So on the dead woman front just to jump right into the next scene, which takes place at the library where Agnes, as I will try to continue to call her until she becomes Agatha and full again, pursues and seeks out, Dottie, cuts through the line, only suckers wait their turn. Doddy's like, you did this at the grocery store. And Agnes is basically like, fuck off. Where were you? Incredible. And when she mentions, when Agnes mentions the victim, and Dottie says, is she dead? Agnes is, why do you assume it's a woman? And the reply is, I don't know, sounds more titillating. And I just have no notes.

Like the... Wrapped in plastic. Yeah. It's amazing. Amazing. And I was absolutely sensational. This is another part. We mentioned her.

We mentioned Dottie. Like, it's so fun to see all that they call back all. the like Wanda Vision, there weren't background actors. They were members of the cast, but these sort of like background actor-esque characters from the first show into here. Who did you think was redeployed into the best new role? I really enjoyed pawn shop norm. Yeah.

I think it might be pawn shop norm. Yeah. Police chief still also great. Pond shop norm, especially when like later she catches him and he's like running down the street and he sort of like does a buttonhole like, oh. It's really good. Amazing stuff. All right.

Now I know where to start the bidding on eBay. Thanks, Norm. This is incredible. So, why the library? Because this library card was found with the body. A lot of dates, not a lot of book titles. There's one. Dialogue and rhetoric, known history of learning and debate by Andrew Hugo.

Seems real. Stolen three years ago, Joe. I just want everyone to do. to know. We all know that my brain is a soft-boiled egg, and I get easily excited by, like, putting theories into shows that might not even be theory shows. But I just need everyone to know that when Mallory saw the promo image that was a library card on an Instagram thing, she texts says, are the fonts a clue? So, um, her brain might be... But are they? Are they? You're like a deviled egg brain. I'm like a soft-boiled, but you're like a little

devil d' egg inside of you and I love that for you. Yeah. I love, devil d' eggs are delicious. Yeah. It's no jade egg inside of you, but it'll do. Okay. So on that note, oh my God. Joe, so a little, a little light reading. What do you think here? Is dialogue and rhetoric known history of learning and debate in fact an erotic thriller or is it the dark cold? Sounds like it's the dark holds. And it sounds like we're already being encouraged to think in terms of anagrams. I was just saying, acrastics and anagrams

right off the bat. I can't be blamed if I keep doing it. It's right here. So you know what? Actually, I want to ask you a question about that, the sincere one. Obviously, like,

Wanda Vision was a show that people really loved and enjoyed. But the, oh, like, I got my friend, oh, is this Reed Richards? Oh. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I've been Ralph Boner,

like, despite the overall enthusiasm for the show, there was some dismay that the, which I don't know that we necessarily think is like a reasonable or justified response because the fans bring to it, we all bring to it what we bring and we're choosing how often to theorize. But do you think that the awareness of that response will have a bearing on how the impulse and the temptation and the like inciting little clues we're getting here will eventually be rewarded. I think, I do think that they will be more inclined to put these puzzles in here for us to have fun with.

And then pay them off because they know we're waiting. Well, no, you think they're going to fuck with us. I think they're going to intentionally play with a lot of our reactions from season one. I think that's true. And I think that something I remember, so I interviewed Jack Schaefer on a different podcast I used to do, but I choose not to believe that I ever podcasted with anyone before you. But when I did a different podcast for Wanda Vision, and I interviewed Jack for that, she was saying, like,

she's like, oh, I do like, I like listening to your show. I don't listen to the part where you guys theorized because it stresses me out too much. Like, she was, like, so stressed that people were getting so, like, wrapped up in the theories. And so I always say, and I've said this a million times, I'll say it again. Hold them loosely.

Hold them loosely. Yeah. But just have fun. You know, so, but hold them loosely. That said, what episode will Mephisto be appearing in? Six. If we had episode titles, I would tell you, which one I think. But we don't have episode titles yet.

But can you tell me based on the fonts? I can maybe tell you based on the lyrics. But we'll get there. Incredible. Okay, so to the stacks. We love a library. We do. We love books that are preserved and cared for well.

Lamentably, that is not. what Agnes finds here because this rack that should be full of dark holds, it's toast. Here's what we, here's the exchange that we hear. It's a very creepy little exchange in the stacks. There was a fire. Was everything destroyed? Every

last. Capi. Now this is someone who has seen Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness where that was a prominent aspect of the plot. We've got the stabbing of the dark hold, Sarah Wolfe. And then

eventually, Spoilers, I guess, for Multiverse of Madness. We said the entire MCU is on the table today. You've been warned. Correct. The entire sequence, where Wanda uses her chaos magic to destroy every known copy of the Darkholt across the multiverse and then Darkholt Castle on Mount Wondegor

collapses on top of her and this is why we're... And kills her question mark? Being led to believe that blunt trauma, quote unquote, Wanda is dead. Right. Wink, wink, wink. But that's where the... That's what happened, right? the dark holds, it's done.

No dark hold, just a bunch of ash, a heaping ash here. Will they find another one? What do we think? Oh, interesting. It feels like a lot of mentions in the darkhold for the premiere for the darkhold to not come back into play in some way. Right. That is, that's a good point that you make.

And I wouldn't mind on doing plenty of things in multiverse of madness, but it would be sad if the whole point of multiverse of madness to like put an end to this thing was like, there is another. But I suppose we, because the Witch's Road itself exists in a sort of liminal space type of place. So she got rid of the Darkholds in every single multiverse, but is the Witch's Road like sort of a pocket universe that isn't, that is impervious to that? And if someone left their copy, a copy of the Darkholds on the Witches Road, is that one that could have survived? Do you think what Wanda did impacted?

Hold your theories loosely. Hold them loosely. Like if there was like if a flurkin had consumed a dark hold at some point, if they'd have gone into the pocket dimension inside a flurkin, would that dark hold have been wiped? No, I think you have access to that, but only if you sing Phantom of the Opera. By that I mean cats.

If only if you sing cats, then you can get to it. Great stuff. Okay. Enter Rio Vidal, Agent Vidal. Listen. Yep. We're at the police station. We have a brief, very fun sequence before Aubrey Plaza enters.

There's an amusing, like, Agnes can't say a proper hello because she's scarfing down donuts. The chief of police, Phil, is there to share some information on the sediment deposits from Eastern Europe. Again, Wondegor. Mm-hmm. But then everything stops including our hearts because Aubrey Plaza enters. Yeah. In the most astonishingly perfect pantsuit that I've ever seen, there was a time recently where you tried to convince me that I could pull off a pants suit. And you can. I was, I don't know, but I was thinking about it a lot. I found fresh inspiration watching this. This was just sensational. Sensational. Not her only notable entrance over these two episodes, but boy, what a first impression. I mean, I think it is important to remember. because she's standing in her comp in Marra Vistown is Evan Peters character, right?

Who was what? The romantic interest of our mare character. So amongst other things, amongst just enjoying seeing Aubrey Plaza in a suit. And by the way, also, if you were a fan of Legion, as I was, to see Aubrey Plaza play unhinged in another Marvel property while wearing an incredible suit just brings me back to the glory days of Legion. Really, really thrilled for that, for all of us. We all win, honestly.

We do. Truly we do. Agnes, a little uncomfortable. Shifting in her chair, we can kind of feel the unease. Some more comedic gold when Phil is like, listen, teamwork. It makes the dream work. Agnes just shouts, eat my ass, chief. Your favorite line, to be clear, your favorite line.

line of both episodes. It really made me laugh. So funny. The tension, Joe. It is ample. It is thick. It is supple. Supple.

These two are left alone and you can feel the history, right? I mean, the history is brought into the conversation and so it is apparent to us. It's been a long time. What are you doing here? My job. But the nature of the history starts to unfold for us in a way that it's quite intriguing. You want to take control of my investigation?

No. If you want to be in control, you can be. Now, purportedly this exchange is about breaking free of the illusion that has trapped Agnes in this state. No, it's not. No, it's not. Sex Stuff Go? Yeah, sex stuff go. Listen, I would accuse them of shamelessly queer baiting.

We're not for the promise that this is a queer show. this is incredibly deliciously loaded stuff. And as far as I know, the queers on the internet are losing their minds over everything that has to do with Rio, but this exchange is particularly, for sure. Yes. It definitely seems like these two are exes.

Like they have a very meaningful romantic history that is hanging over both of them. A black heart that beats only for you? I mean, I can't wait to talk about the palm lick. We have a lot to get to. on the Rio and Agnes front. Yeah. But one of the interesting things is, like, before we get into the breaking down the door

and the fight and the like, I can't, you can't kill me exchange and everything that, talk about delicious theory fodder, this first moment, like before we realize that they are oppositional forces and clearly have been for some time, Rio is introduced to us as someone who is trying to help Agnes break free. Now, the fact that it becomes seemingly apparent that that's selfishly motivated because she needs her in this full state for whatever is unfolding between them almost doesn't matter. It, like, helps root us in the belief that they might want each other more than whatever else they're pursuing. And so, like, that's just like the tone setting nature of that felt so deliberate and effective. And also just like the way that we learn You have these like lines

That can work as such effective shorthand To tell you somebody knows somebody else truly right Like when Rio is looking around and says Is this really how you see yourself? And there's like pity Now we find this quite sad from the Agnes, Agatha perspective But also it makes you sad about what they had And then what was lost between them

I think also and this is part of the pure joy of Wanda vision is that we get to sit here and play, like, meeting detective. And all these lines are loaded as, you know, as you just pointed out with, like, three layers of meaning. There's, like, the text of the Agnes of Westview show that we're watching, right? And then there's the text of the spell. And then there's the text of the relationship.

And we get to play, like, linguistic detective across all of these exchanges. And that happened all the time in Wanda Vision. There would be double treble meanings into these sentences. And so because the beauty of Wanda's spell as it existed in the first place and as it sort of reiterated here is to your point, the people under the spell are somewhat aware they're under a spell. There's meaning trying to emerge from underneath a fantasy. And so, again, that just gives us a lot to play with. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm like flashing back now to Doddy asking, you know, can I, can I, can we just let my daughter out of my room? And those brief moments of like some level of lucidity. Yeah. Yeah, man. Joe, it's time to look for leads. I would like you to join me at the pawn shop.

Norm's there. And he's talking about one of our favorite, Norm, our favorite house of our topics. The triple goddess. Take it away. Maiden Mother Crone. We've talked about the triple goddess idea and the fates and the power of three and all of that in various other witch stuff go segments and various other podcasts, Asoka or otherwise. But yeah, this is, you know, this is the divine trinity of the witchiness.

And I love the response of what no working professional goddess, which is both like a great. incredible. A great commentary from the writer's room, but also just like something very like snarky that mayor would say, you know, like all of it sort of works together brilliantly.

But yeah, this is, and then this locket, this cameo is, which is actually a locket, is an iconic part of the Agatha Parkness design. So the fact that she has this like,

trinket, this talisman, almost of her own identity. And she's trying to sort of dig deeper into the layers of it, I think is a really clever thing. Yeah. And the information that we got from Norm 17th century, New England takes us back to the glimpse. Like we have a lot we don't know about MCU Agatha. But we did get to see her suck a bunch of witches into husks as she took their power.

Correct. Exactly that. including her own mother. So let's keep that needs must in our minds as we talk about some potential evolving dynamics with loved ones over the course of these two episodes. What's inside? It's not a brooch. It's a locket. And there is a lock of hair inside.

And immediately we see on Agatha's face, this pulls on something inside of her. She can't quite piece it all together yet, but there's recognition. If not fully conscious recognition, then at least emotional recognition. This means something to her. It's important. When she is looking at it, it is like the thing later that helps her embrace and warm to... Not just warm to teen, but also her first... So she looks at the lock of hair again inside the cameo, and her first line is,

Who are you? Right? Not just like, sure, I'll take you to the witch's road, but like, who are you? Right. Teenage boy. That's a question about identity, but also like, who are you to someone else? What did you mean to someone just like this, the source of this hair meets something to me. So, okay.

Theories. Okay. I love your theory. Why don't you run with your theory? Because it's actually, it was different from mine, but in the span of me reading the outline, you've convinced me that you're right. So I really like that. Hold it loosely. I'm a little loosely.

No, no. My feeling is that this is a strand of Nikki's hair, Nicholas Scratch, who we will talk about a little bit more in a couple minutes when we get to Agatha's home and that really painful moment looking into a child's bedroom. But Nicholas, well, we can just talk about that now, actually, because it's literally the next scene. Like, Nick, Nick, so Agatha goes home. Actually, can we take a very quick puddle detour? Because Agatha walks past the puddle and there's a reflection and that there was like meaningful attention drawn to the reflection on the puddle at the crime scene too. Do you think this means something or no? Is this like...

Well, here we sit on the anniversary of the Lost premiere. And we should remember that in the final season of Lost, when they're in sort of a, let's just call it a parallel universe if we want to, there were these constant standing in front of a mirror moments that were sort of supposed to indicate a rising level of conscious inside of what you could term a spell if you would prefer to. It's a very similar situation where they're in this ideal. The final season of Lost has a lot in common with Wanda Vision and this first episode of Agatha

where you see familiar characters in an unfamiliar setting and they have to sort of wake themselves up to a certain degree. Very vague spoilers from the end of Lost. And so I think that, yeah. And similarly in Westworld, which has a similar sort of need to wake up idea whenever a character would stand in front of a mirror or reflection. Well, primarily Evan Rachel Wood's character, there would be this moment of like a pause and a sort of, yeah. So I do think these moments of reflection and especially in a premise that puts an emphasis on elements, I think it's important that that reflection be water.

So yeah, hold it loosely. But yeah, I would, let's get on Puddle Watch 2024. I like it. Yeah. I like it. A lot of watch. On Justice for Sparky Watch, we would be remiss if we didn't know that when Agatha walks into her home and here's a neighbor's dog barking, she screams stupid dog. And let us never forget that Agatha killed Sparky too.

Sparky. It is a horror and a scandal. Hmm. Oh, boy. Okay, so back to Nikki, back to Nikki, back to Nikki Scratch. So Agatha walks in and it's kind of like pulled to this slightly ajar door at the end of the hall looks in and we see a child's bedroom, right? And it is intact. It is preserved. Teddy bears. Marbles. Clas. Trofies. Yeah. Trophies. Notably a wood carving of a bunny rabbit. We see also like a painting of a bunny rabbit in the house elsewhere. And of course, Signor Scratch, the bunny who was in Wanda Vision is here as well. So Nicholas is Agatha's son in the comics and has been in the comics since 77, so a long time.

My feeling was, based on the emotional response to Agatha, looking into Nikki's room and that being right on the heels of the locket and then the way that looking at the hair in the locket seem to lead her to like open up to teen and show more interest in teen, as you noted, that that's Nikki's hair, that that's her son's hair and she is thinking about her. I love that. I love this. I don't know why.

I mean, you're so smart and I love talking to you about everything. And this didn't honestly, I was like, I was so one-tracked mind of like Rio, Rio, Rio. I was like, that's hair. That's like a lock of her ex-lover's hair and her locket. I like that, too. But no, I think lock of. of dead son question mark in her. So like when she says,

then when she looks at it later, because I saw this in the notes and then I went and rewatch that scene, I was like, um, Valerie Rubin, she did it again. When she looks at the lock and then she looks at him,

she goes, who are you? It's like, uh, it could be, are you some version of my son? Right. Uh,

that via magic looks a little different. But, you know, both Aubrey Plaza and, Joe Locke have dark, you know, thick hair that could curl in a way that, you know, could resemble that or that's not who we think teen is at all. But, you know, stay tuned for Theory Corner. Absolutely.

But I think in terms of Theory Corner and in terms of who we think teen is, thematically, this idea of motherhood for Agatha fits beautifully into all of us. So, yeah. I like, too, in terms of the, in terms of. like why mayor of all the things why mary these down like spoilers for mayor but you know the looming specter of this tragedy with a child and how that can shape your life and then not to jump around too much but you get you get a moment like gen invoking another child sacrifice another child sacrifice and you're like oh boy like did and of course this question of if rio

and Agatha have the history that we think they do is whatever happened to Nikki part of the rift part of the cause of the rift between them. So yeah, I like it. Anything else you want to say about Nicholas Spark comics character? What do you want to offer up? What do you want to hold back for a bit?

I just want to remind people who don't spend time thinking about this that Nicholas, so send your scratch, Nicholas Spark, that Nick Scratch is another name for the devil. Just something to think about. Just something to hold into your heart. Mephisto?

Mephisto? Mephisto? Mephisto? We should actually start setting an over under for Mephisto mentions on the pod. Genuinely. Oh. I mean, I would set it at like... Because we never...

No. Podcasted about one dimension together. I would set it at like 17 per episode. Like, I feel like it's going to come up constantly. No? Can't wait. I'm excited to talk about Mephisto. Again, Jomi's going to be so mad.

So mad at us and frankly disappointed in us when he listens to this. But then what if Mephisto's in the show? What will Jomey do then? Oh, man. Jomey's usually, can I just say? Historically, this is what I've learned. Jomey is often right about things that we disagree on. Like we will publicly, and by publicly I mean in the group text disagree about something,

that Jomey will usually be right. That's just true. So I've learned to really respect that when Jomey puts his foot down. down on something. He's probably right that we're not going to get across the Spider-First part two until we're all dead. That was a big W for Jomey in the group chat. Yeah, it was. Big L for me, honestly. So, but what if Jovey's wrong about Mephisto? That's just sort of the thing that I'm going to hold loosely. Okay, Rio's here. With a pizza. Pizza's here. No rolling rock beer, though, which was a hallmark of the Mary of Beastown.

Those were the two beers in the Mary universe. We got Dosekis here instead. That's not the same. I was looking for the bright green rolling rock bottle. She loved her rolling rock. Yeah. Loved a rolling rock. But this is, I mean, you could put a side by side of this scene and an Evan Peters, Kate Winslet, scene inside of Mary Vestown that I thought to think about a lot.

And this scene was like, this was one of my favorites of the two episodes, this little, this little moment on the couch in the living room here, sipping the beers, sharing this story. about like TikTok and, you know, I was using the wrong foundation brush because so funny. There was the nervous energy simultaneously of like maybe people who were interested in each other and courting each other for the first time or like rediscovering or confronting a new, like an old feeling that you had been forced to let go of or pushed away. It had that that feel to it. Let's imagine this from Rio's POV. So she's like slipped inside the spells one way or another. And she's seeing Agatha for the first time, it seems, in a very long time since Agatha hit herself away via the dark old, right? So she's able to see someone that she once, we presume, loved and lost.

And someone who there's a great deal of enmity, but not inside this moment inside this spell, right? Yes. She, Rio can be tenderly concerned. and Agatha without the awareness of who she's dealing with. She gets a, they get a little confrontational occasionally, but like there's also just like this ability to be close, this ability to sort of like share space with someone that you once loved to something that she would never be able to do outside of the spell. Right.

Exactly. Yeah. I love that. What a beautiful observation. I, I, on what was the best moment and best exchange race to the top and there are a lot of contenders. I have a lead in the case. And then Aubrey Plaza sitting in that chair in that button-down shirt with the holster straps saying, that's not why I came over, is high on the list.

My goodness. I thought it was interesting to the like very, to your point about the shifting tone in the scene, like asking if Agnes remembers why she even hates Rio. And then the are you hiding evidence and the, eh, you're. only lying to yourself because like it felt less gentle when she said that but there's that's still ultimately anchored in caring about that person and what is happening to them and for them so that was all that was just a great little great little scene um it is interrupted by the intrusion of teen capital t teen capital t teen quickly winds up on the wrong side of mrs davis's car here. I'm so happy that this is like a bit in the show and not something really annoyed that the show

is doing. I was pre-annoyed about this and now I'm like, oh, this is fun. They're just having, again, they're just having fun with this. But yeah, the chase, we should remember that a mayor of East Town, you know, like breaking and entering via teen was like a very important part of that show. Yeah, I love this. So she takes him in. I don't know, to a closet, I guess, but interrogation room. Great moment later. Like, okay, so that arrest was more like kidnapping. Right.

I think it's so interesting. Like when he says, when he say decorated, do you mean suspended without pay? Or when he says, you know, when she says, what are you looking for in my house? And he says the respect of your peers in a fulfilling home life. It's so interesting that he's playing along in the spell, like similar to what Rio did. But, like, again, this is like a don't wake a sleek walker abruptly. sort of approach, I suppose, to this waking up spell. So, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And the, you know, chant, we get this Latin chant from him. Yeah. It's like, those are flowers in the picture. And why do you keep looking over at that painting that she thinks is a two-way mirror and we see, like, the, you know, the grip that this trance has on her fading a little bit? But before that happens, she leans in and she says to him that the things that he is making fun of her for, that he is roasting her for, are the things that make her dangerous. And there's like a lot of comedy in this scene, you know, when she asked where it was between one and three and he says he was asleep, she's like, total loser. She jots it down in her notepad, etc. But there are these moments throughout the episodes where there's a,

dark, dangerous heart that we know has driven this character to this place. And so a moment like that, you know, it made me think we've been having these beautiful conversations on our rings of power pods. If you're not caught up on rings of power, join us. Please join us immediately in Middle Earth. We're having the time of our fucking lives. And we've been talking about this idea that you mentioned earlier in season two of like fellowship as not just this core theme,

but like an actual protection. And so to think of Agatha, just because we literally potted about the show yesterday, you know, to come into this now and like have that in our minds, as somebody who is in the opposite kind of spot,

somebody who like is isolated and apart and has had these central relationships in her life ripped away, either of her own doing or someone else's as some of that has yet to become clear to us. Well, what does that make you and where does it lead you? And so like that's one of the things

I'm really looking forward to in the show. There's a lot of clever construction. There's a very, like, witty and sharp writing. There are serious chemistry between the performers already. But there is that genuine interest, too, in exploring, obviously, this was crucial to Wanda Vision, exploring, like, where your pain and your trauma leads you. That's what Wanda Vision did so well and Loki did so well. Like, that's what we responded so well to those shows is that at the core of them,

there is this emotional, like, we're about to walk the Witches Road to, get, you know, a heart, a brain, the noive, or like, whatever we're getting at the end of the road here, right? But like, but we're on an emotional. We love, stop me if you hear this part. We love a character on an arc. We're on an emotional journey where we're having to confront something painful and whether that painfulness has to do with the loss of a son or the rift in a relationship or all these other things that put Agatha in a place where she is our, antagonist. I mean, Wanda is sort of her own antagonist in WandaVision, but like, Agatha is an antagonist.

Because I remember when I was trying to like parse the clues of Wanda Vision in the first place, I was like, what if Agatha is trying to wake Wanda up because she wants to like help her or lie with her or whatever. But when she was just like, hello, I'm just evil. I was like, okay. But like, how does one get that? How does one get evil? Is, you know, a question worth asking. Latin corner really briefly, just to say that what Teen, capital T, teen says here is, I'm not going to do the Latin, but what he says is release the woman who has been cursed by my spell, release this woman who has been cursed.

So, I mean, it's pretty much what you would guess he was saying, but just to confirm. It's good to know that he didn't just say in Latin, break through like a loophole in the spell by saying his actual character name. I just want to say it, but I guess I know. We'll save it for an abundance of caution. We'll save it for that theory pointer, though.

I have to assume that most people have. I feel like we've said it on other pods, but we will be more careful here. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, Joe, it's, it's, uh, there's a lot going on. A lot to parse. The walls are melting. There's our, in fact, flowers in the pictures. It's time to go somewhere soothing, calming,

where you can get a grip. Care to go to the morgue? Let's chill out. In the dead of night, shall we? So there's no body on the slab, but Agatha starts listing the features. Five-seven green eyes.

Body appears. Red hair. Let's describe the hair color. Tells him. Okay. Scarlet, not just red. We went for it. Scarlet. And then the W. Maximoff appears on the library card.

Rio shows up to help kind of push Agnes along. Case closed then? How did she die? Wrong question. That witch is gone and all the copies of the dark hold with her leaving you trapped in her distorted spell. But you don't have to stay there, do you? And then Agatha's like, it's getting hot in here. And she starts taking off her clothing. And this was really fun. We flashed in reverse chronological order back through all of her costumes and the episodes and all of her looks from Mondavision looking at the mirror and screaming at the 80s exercise outfit and hair was extremely funny. I really like your way out.

I like the phrasing of call your way out because it just, I mean, we're going to talk about Buffy Vampire Slayer a lot in a bit, but like, claw your way out, claw your way out of the grave is sort of like what you think of when you think of that phrase. And so, yeah, it's just like, come back from the dead. She buried you here. She buried you alive here. claw your way out from the grave and come back to me. That's how I'm choosing to interpret that,

even if it's so that we can kill each other. But come back to me, yeah. And I love, I love... They have great news they can't kill each other. I love that, like, there's two Jane Does in this case, right? Like, I love that phrasing, too. But yeah. A. Harkness.

Boom. And then we snapped to full frontal Agatha. Here we are. We're home. The hair is long. It's strategically positioned to cover, certain body parts in the MCU on Disney Plus. But not all of them.

No, so certainly not. Agatha runs outside and finds her where we often find him at his fence. At the hedge. Yeah. At the hedge. Steve, can we please hear this exchange? How long have I been living in this cesspool of a town? You don't remember.

Catch me up. About three years. Three years? Well, we try not to say her name. Ugh, because you're cowards. Because you're sheep. What have I been doing all this time? Well, you've mostly been a good neighbor.

A bit too casual with your boundaries. Call me nosy. I'll cut out your tongue. A bit too casual with your boundaries. He's killed me. I loved that. I got a real kick out of Phil and Dodie and their daughter coming out and seeing the naked Agatha and, like, Doddy having to pull Phil away.

That was very amusing to me. Yeah. How are you processing the fact that the citizens of Westview are basically treating Wanda Maximoff like Voldemort? No notes. No notes. I love it. Oh, man. So prompted by her using the word powerful right after this, Agatha goes back inside and she tries to use her magic and finds out that she can't.

And she goes to the basement, this basement that was so key in Wanda Vision to revealing and learning. what was actually a foot. Scoops up, sweet little senor scratchy, heads him just like a lot of great little chin rubs as she is piecing together what has happened and declaring. We got to get back on top. And then once again,

there is a noise above from Dean and she realizes that she has tied him up in the closet. And so, oh, wait, shit, if he was real, so was a boom. Yeah. So before we get to Rio, licking stuff.

And we should mention Not everything. Not yet. That in the count Wait, bide your time. In the countdown to the premiere, they were doing this like ASMR. I don't know how to describe what they were doing,

but they were doing like some ASMR bits with the cast. And Aubrey Plaza was licking knives. No notes from me. Okay, but before we get there, just want to zoom back. And say before we, she says we got back on top. She says she left me with the appliance.

which I just thought was really funny. Okay, so the front door explodes. Here comes incredible outfit. Sensational stuff. You're like, the pantsuit, nothing better. Oh, no, wait, is this better? The way she enters this sort of bucolic home immediately pinged Nancy in the craft to me.

This is Friza-Bulch's character in the craft who comes to have this horrible showdown confrontation, the way that she's like witchily and black and some of the choreography, like when she's sort of like, I don't know how to describe it with my words, but I did it have that once more. She sort of like levitates up 90 degrees from the floor.

That's an iconic for Rizabalc as Nancy in the craft moment. So I love that. And just the absolute decimation of the house. again, that's very much like the final showdown in the craft. And we get a shot of Fruza bulk from the craft of the closing credit. So obviously that's like on their minds. But that was one but not the most important comp for me. But I will wait a second for that.

Yeah. Exciting. So it really is which stuff goes. I'm thrilled for you. I just feel privileged to witness this. Thank you. I'd like to thank the account. Thank you so much.

Oh my God. The curved blade, by the way, I'm like, you know me. So you're like which stuff going, I'm like, merch. This is what I'm about to talk about in a second. But give me a second. A new tool for the armory. Basically everything that they say to each other in this sequence is worth remarking upon and interesting and something that we can parse.

Also just the choreography of this scene, which I know you're going to get into, like the physical, when they're on the floor fighting for the knife, like the very intimate, close quarters physical nature of this conflict. It was just good. Like, it was a well-staged action sequence, so that was very fun. Here's what the, here's what they say to each other initially. I've missed you. I hate you. How long has it been, Agatha? Not sure. Since you acquired the Dark Hold, you hid behind all that dark magic, but then you lost it. And now, and the knife, the blade is piercing skin. We see blood starting to drip from her neck.

Touch. You're vulnerable. And Agatha replies only physically. Like physical vulnerability is not... She's lying down emotionally. Exactly. You can't hurt me emotionally. Allegedly.

So you hid behind all that dark magic. Early days, but like, where are you with this? Did Agatha get the dark hold in order to protect herself from Rio? We're going to hear in a minute how they describe themselves as these like oppositional forces. Did her use of it become like a wedge between them? What's your read on this? I feel like she made herself like literally invisible to Rio that like no amount of scrying, you know, could possibly locate her. that she was just essentially like cloaked.

And I love that. I absolutely love that. Did she do it to hide from Rio? I don't know. I'm sure it was the hiding feels intentional. But whether or not that's the sole purpose of acquiring the dark hold, I don't think so. Hiding from something she did. I mean, the next exchange we get when we get the kind of cat Stark-esque dagger slicing the hand is, do you remember pain?

And again, we have like the physical pain, but also the emotional pain and what maybe she has been suppressing. When she said, do you remember pain? And also the imagery of Catherine Hahn pinned up against the wall and Aubrey Plaza with a knife to her. Nothing in all of my days has been more Buffy Vampire Slayer coded to me. And I was looking back, I did not talk to Jack Schaefer directly about Buffy Vampire Slayer, but Emma Cofield was, who plays Dottie, was one of the stars of the Buffy Vampire Slayer. There was like a bunny joke about her, like,

in the show, it was like, so it's pretty clear to me that Jack Schaefer, who was around my age, was a Buffy Vampire Slayer fan. But anyone's free to correct me if I'm wrong. There is, and I'm just going to tell you and our listeners, in case, you know, you haven't watched it, they're not versed.

Buffy is a vampire slayer. When a Slayer dies, a new Slayer is made. She dies briefly. She comes back to life. A new Slayer's made her name is, Faith. And so there is for Season 3 of Buffy, two Slayers, one, blonde, Buffy, one

dark-haired, Faith. Faith, spoiler for Buffy season three breaks bad. Like, what are you going to do if you have two slayers? One's got to break bad. And so they are in this, embroiled in this, like, insanely sexual, toxic, like,

fight, romance, this whole thing. And Faith, in the last few episodes, season three, is gifted this gnarly knife, which is very similar to the knife that Rio has here. And so the image of Agatha up against the wall, Rio in front of her with the knife, is an iconic Buffy and Faith image to me. The licking of the palm, iconic faith stuff to me.

So the way in which she is like incredibly faith from Buffy, Nancy from the craft, and I understand that this is my like 90s kid, you know, showing through here. but like, again, Jack Schaefer is around my age, is really exciting to me because that, you know, that's all subtext in Buffy, but it is text here of like these are exis having this fight. And it's juicy and it's sexy and it's scary and it's really, really good. Should we hear some of the things that they say to each other? Yeah, let's do it. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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It's not allowed. Maybe I can't kill you. And I can make you wish you were dead. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This isn't what you want. Me without power. This is undignified. Don't you want me at my best?

Admit it. You prefer me. Horizontal? In a grave? Formidable. So take my power. It's cute. But you know that would kill me.

Just let me get my purple back And then come find me Horizontal? My God The vibes, Joanna. This is the most sexually charged exchange. Fun to just listen to it instead of watching and just hear all of the moaning and panting.

Not the first time these two have torn up a room. No, the grunt. It's pornographic, genuinely. Like, we thought Sylvie and Loki was, this is, another like layer entirely. This is so good. Wonderful stuff. Talk me through the magic rules that we've just learned here.

Yeah, they can't kill each other. They can't kill each other. They can not kill each other. And she says, so take my power. And the only way that Agatha knows how to take power is to the aforementioned husking of a person, right? It's like sucking them dry till they're husks. That would kill her. If she kills her, she dies.

Almost like none may die while the other lives or. or something like that. Yeah. So, yeah. Put some in an interesting bind. But just because they can't kill each other, it doesn't mean they can't sick some other baddies on each other. So, like, again, early days.

We'll surely have more evidence mounting as we go. But is this because of a spell, an enchantment, a vow, some pledge or promise they made to each other? at some point, is it because of, to stick with your Buffy example, like an actual, like a deeper nature of some sort of relationship and how they relate to each other as like magical beings, the role that they each inhabit magically? Like, where are you on this? I like the idea of it as a vow, an unbreakable vow that was made perhaps on the first journey down the witch's road of just sort of like, this is how we'll trust each other. is we'll say we can't die. We can't kill each other.

Yeah. I love an unbreakable valve. Can't wait for the flashback episode. Oh, man. That's going to be great. It's going to be great. So, as you said, they can send some other baddies. Rio's like, happy to report that I'm not the only one who wants you dead, the Salem

7, the quote, worst of them. They're on their way. They're going to be here tonight. Joanna, who are the Salem 7? This is so fun. This is like the perfect, and this is what Wandavision did too. this idea of like comic book lore that's here but not required at all because you hear Salem 7 and especially later you see them and you're like I get it seven baddies seven very scary ladies

I am very scared shouldn't be able to move down a flight of stairs like that it's a it's a no for me it is an absolute negatory for me okay uh 1977 in the comics uh they've been in scarly witch stories fantastic four stories uh etc etc their powers allow them to turn into magical creatures. So in the comics, that's more like anthropomorphized. Here, it's later in episode two when Agatha keeps seeing, sees a crow, sees a rat, and is freak the fuck out. We are 99.99% sure that is members of the Salem 7 sort of spying on her closing ranks sort of thing. Most people would be freaked out if they saw a rat at the mall food court while really enjoying a corn dog, but Agatha has additional reasons to be concerned.

It's not just, she's not just thinking about House of the Dragon. She's got other things on our mind. So in the comics, the Salem 7 are Nikki Scratch's kids, Agatha's grandkids. We feel, I, I, Mowler's like, out of a budget as a caution was like, should we include this comics lore? I'm pretty sure they're not going to do that. Especially like if the idea is that Nick was. to your theory, like, sacrifices a child or loss as a child.

Like, I don't know. Like, and the timeline of it, like, Salem 7, it feels like, it feels more likely to me that they might be connected to the women that she sucked dry in the flashback in WandaVish or something like that. That's not, that's not comics canon, but that seems more likely to me than they would do. Those heartbeats are dust. Yeah. They sure are.

Oh, man. What a rich text this already is. of we get one of the more notable exchanges at the at the very end here black heart this is going to come up obviously in a meaningful way in episode two it really warms the heart you don't have a heart agatha says to which rio replies yes i do it's black and it beats for you and then she licks the blood off of her palm and brings us into uh the state of euphoria and then also the witchy end credits and then episode two. But that Black Heart, when we get to the...

Oh, yeah. Who is the fourth name on the Eviction Notice list that Lillia sketched out in one of her many sudden... Trances. Yeah. Great stuff. It wasn't a name. It was a Blackheart.

So obviously, that is Rio. And that tells us, too, because of the pursuit of the Green Witch that she is a green witch. She is the Earth Witch. So we have learned quite a bit, actually, about Rio. though we have plenty to theorize about still. Episode two. Agatha is clothed.

She is wearing some, just a sensational fit here. She is wearing these incredible, wide-legged, like, high-crop jeans that immediately made me think of the MCU's gene icon, Aunt May, who throughout the Spider-Man films just always is a, breaking out a new, like, enviably. High-waisted, yeah, or fire to gene that, like, very few people can pull off. Walking around the house, muttering about Rio, and teen rips the tape off his mouth, and he's like, just please take me to the Witch's Road. So here we go. Witches Road. What is that exactly? Thank you for asking.

The road will give you the thing you want the most if you make it to the end. And I can. I will. Hmm. The road is no place for a kid. I'm 16. Teen. Oh, sorry. Teen. Teen getting his name. What, I mean, what did you think of Joe Locke in these? You haven't, you, you're not a hard stopper.

Yeah. No. So, yeah, new to me here. There was one stretch to your point about the accent. One stretch in episode two where it was breaking through quite a bit. But overall, I thought he was, I thought he was really great. Yeah, I thought he was really good. I had no idea from the trailers that he would be. be this prominently featured, like you said, basically the number two. And I mean, again, like, on the one hand, Catherine Hahn is such a dynamic and charismatic performer that you almost think maybe anybody could succeed alongside of her because she's also just like a very generous performer, right? Yeah. But it also has to be incredibly intimidating and hard to be in scenes with her because

she's brilliant and hysterical. And he was like really holding his own and like, you know, every recruitment, which we'll get to, it's like, This is my familiar. This is my pet. And he's just hanging in real time. And there are moments where, you know, we're sensing that this teen is like, my notepad, sorry, do you mind? Because you write that down for me.

The desire. He's learning. He's eager. He's got his own life and his own thing going on. But also he's like, I'm a super fan. Like, I am obsessed with you. So that's what I wanted to say. All of those notes.

Yeah. That's what I wanted to say is that I think this character archetype can be so annoying so easily. the like eager young sidekick sort of thing and they've knocked it out of the park on this front across the board we loved the Kate Bishop portrayal in Hawkeye were big Kamala Khan fans

like all of that's true and so I think they really nailed it here I was a little worried just about like the nature of the character that I saw in the trailer and then I just thought he was really good So, yeah, the Witch's Road. He's also, like, I learned about this from books, the valid legend lore. Teen.

I also love him. He's got this little notebook that I'm calling Chekhov's little lore notebook, which reminds me a lot, again, showing precisely when I was born of the Grail Diary in Indiana Jones West Crusade, my favorite Indiana Jones movie. This idea that he can just, like, he's been studying the Witches Road. He's been studying Agatha. he's been studying the Witch's Road. And so when they come up against trials, of course, there will be like Agatha who's walked it. Perhaps Rio we can talk about who may or may not have walked it. But then there's like, you know, teen in his little notebook.

And what can he help with? Only the penitentent man will pass. Stuff like that. It'll be fun. It's going to be easier for them to sell this than the TVA guidebook that we are. Still waiting. On that merch. Thanks.

Still waiting for, folks. Unbelievable. So Agatha asks the question that I think is on the mind of the viewers at home as well. If you've got the goods to break a spell cast by the Scarlet Witch, why do you need the road? Right. And he says he's looking for power, right? Power is what I'm missing.

It is a power. Power is what I'm missing. It sounds like it's what you're missing to. Stay tuned for the theory. section where we have questions, comments, and concerns about what teen really wants on the Witches Road. Yes. And on the who is teen front, like you alluded to earlier, they're really leaning in when

Agatha asked who he is and he's trying to say his name, the sound is distorted and his lips melt into like strings of wax. You know what it really reminded me? I mean, a lot of people are comping it to Neo and the Matrix and that's like, that's a good comp. I thought immediately of character of Billy Butcherson from Hocus Pocus, who has his mouth sewn shut. The way the like, and then also, I think this is okay to say outside of a theory section because it's just stating a fact. The way the sort of line across his mouth looks, it looks like it's either a W or an M or perhaps both on the way.

It looks like a curled script W or M. Yeah. You can also kind of hang with the number of syllables. even if you can't hear the exact. I feel like it's pretty clear what name he's saying. Possibly. Possibly. But we shall see.

But yeah, I was thinking about hocus pocus in them. That was my immediate thought. Love that character. Billy. Stuff. Yeah. Great stuff. One of the things you wanted to jot down into the notebook was all of this great new

rich intel about Covens show. We're heading to the car. Here's some things we learn about Covens. It's not going to be her old one because those harpies are dusted. again, iconic. Yeah. You need a coven to access the Witch's Road. So you have to forge these relationships.

You have to opt into a fellowship. You cannot isolate. You cannot ISO down the road. No, absolutely not. This idea that it's so convenient for the narrative that the candidates are nearby. And I like that they work it into the script that is just sort of like, this is the nature of covens, you know, wherever you are, a coven there she'll be. She mentions the Covenstead rule. Covenstead is an interesting word to use, I think, because of its associations with modern paganism and Wicca, which is, you know, it's not a word that is associated with, like, sort of 17th century witchcraft. So I think that that's, like, an interesting invocation there. And I like this idea of, like, power sharing, right? Because she says, even the most downed out witches when in close proximity with each other bring out a magical spark. So, like, later, you know, she's,

She calls her new cobbled-together coven, like, you know, losers, husbands, never were, like all this sort of stuff like this. But the way in which their proximity will sort of charge them up, say, like a crystal in the moonlight, is, you know, an exciting thing to track. Almost as exciting as hearing, right, that makes sense. It is the witch's plural possessive road. What a day. Mallory? What a day.

Marley loved, she's not, you're so kind and you don't go around correcting other people's grammar or spelling, but I know this is a passion of yours. And whenever that, like, whenever it burbles up, Mallory will be like, well, I am an editor. I am an editor. So I was thinking about your editor's heart and mind when he made sure to talk about the witches, plural, possessive road. I have to send this to Ringer copy chief Craig Gaines. I got to put this on his radar.

He's going to love this. I don't know if Craig is. keeping for him on the MCU. No, okay. I got to put this in front of him. Our guy teen does get a call from his

boyf, B-O-I-F. Yeah. The beef, the beef friend. Fascinating. This is one of those is Joanna making something out of nothing, probably, moments. The ringtone song,

everyone's just sort of blasting past this and I'm not sure why. This is not a real song. The song, the caption says, on my mind by the band Black Hand. The band Black Hand does not exist. If you dig into the closing credits, which I did, the, it says Blackhand, courtesy of the Math Club. Math Club is a company comprised of musicians and DJs who make fake music for film and television.

So, like, they, and they. They've done it. They did it for, like, they did the 2000s version of the Wandavision theme song for Wanda Vision. They've done stuff for Old Tron. So, like, if a fake little song shows up in a film or television, sometimes it's this group has put together. So, like, sure, fine.

I'm not, I'm not reading that much into it. This is a fake band by, this happens all the time. But on my mind, black hand, right, black tip fingers of the magic he losers. On my mind, whatever. This might be nothing, but I'm just sort of like, why make up a fake song here? Why not just like pay the royalties for some other? Or just use a blander ringtone or something like that. Like, what is this placement here?

So I'm just asking questions. I don't have answers for you. I have some answers, but not all of them here for you. Okay. Genuinely fantastic observation of prompt here. We'll speculate briefly about the potential identity of Boif based on the potential identity of teen when we get to... That's the more important thing

that comes out of this moment, to be clear. I'm like, his wife and you're like, this song. I love it. You're the past. The reason I was like, I was like, let's look up the lyrics of the song to see if the lyrics give us any clues like that. And I'm like, oh no, the song doesn't exist. Oh no, why is it here? Calamity.

Yeah, calamity. Incredible. Almost as incredible as incredible as recruiting the members of the Coven. What would you like to say? more broadly about the idea of the coven and each role that the members of the coven, the coven inhabit before we get into actually meeting Lillia and Jan and Alice. So again, Hobbes and Dragons is Gmail.com. The inbox is open if you have an opinion, if you disagree with what I'm about to say. But I'm going to cite, my best friend Diana Helmuth

wrote a book called The Witching Year. So she spent a long time studying witchcraft and like modern paganism and all this sort of stuff like that. And so, A, it's a great book. B, I will probably be sprinkling Diana's observations of this show throughout, you know, the upcoming episodes. Because she is much more learned on this than I am. And so when I was talking to her about this idea of like a divination witch, a blood witch, a potion witch, she's like, oh, we always have to Pokemon the Witches is what she said, which I thought was really funny. We loved Pokemon the witches. And she was pointing out that this idea of like the speciality inside of a,

witchcraft is a more modern paganism idea. And this idea, she, so again, the email inbox is open if you are, I hope you're not offended. And if you disagree, please email me. But she was rolling your eyes at this because she considers it like sort of a commodification of witchcraft, this idea that then you can make like targeted merch for if you're a Hufflepuff or a Gryffindor or whatever it is. And it's also just like a, she's like it's almost like turning witchcraft into like a personality quiz sort of thing. So she was like somewhat disdainful of it as a concept,

not inside the show, but just sort of like as a concept. And so I am curious if anyone's listening and disagrees. But I thought that was that was interesting. But I like the way it works here, obviously, because we're making a formula. We've got roles to fill. And that, narratively, I think, is really fun. And let's go on a tour. Let's put the team together, Mallory. I love it. When we put a team together. Yeah. Same. First stop. let's go see the town psychic. Let's meet Lillia the divination, which. So all of the characters we're about to recruit are comics characters,

including Lillia Calderoo, who dates back to 73, uses the book of Cagliostro in the comics, which of course Dr. Strange MCU viewers will be familiar with. Let me just say this. The Southern Widow Pituit. that Agatha and Buford pulled off here was fucking hysterical the gasp that Agatha admits

in response to did he golf will sustain me for years. Also when she, my memory is, correct if I'm wrong, but she like sort of hastily throws the pearls on top of her button down to sort of like complete the look of the outfit.

That's correct. She's like, let's get the accessories together for this con. So good. Incredible stuff. Lillia, like, pretty quickly reveals, I'm not a fraud. I know who you are. I know why you're here.

And I am frankly not interested. Also, by the way, just a heads up, you will see a charge on your statement from Lillia's leggings. It is my side hustle. I've experienced this. Not from a psychic, but I've experienced this where someone's like, you're going to get a weird charge. And I'm like, oh, no. Incredible. I will just say the fact that you clarified that it wasn't a psychic.

is only going to lead to more follow-up questions about what it actually was. Oh, okay. Fair enough. I was about to say I've never been to a psychic, but I have been to one psychic, and it was the most, like, unsatisfying experience in my life. It was at the boardwalk in Monterey. And this woman was, like, it was like in a cubby. I don't know. It was just not.

I need to, like, make a real stuff. I don't necessarily fully buy in, but I don't think I've dealt with a real professional yet. Let me just say. Interesting. Does Lillia seem like to your liking? How would the random little screams and sudden trances sit with you? Yeah, scary. I would leave.

I mean, they delight Agatha. Her response is sure you're a bit of a kook. Every witch has their process. I'm thrilled. The icon Patti Lupin is here. Just absolute legend of stage and screen. and she played a witch in one of my favorite episodes of Penny Dreadful, not a perfect show, but a show that I really liked.

And there was like a sort of a standalone episode where she played a witch called The Cut Wife. And it was really, really, really good. So I'm thrilled to have her back in this witchy mode. Penny Dreadful starring our shared wife and Tombomb. Yeah, Tom Bomb and Eva Green. Yeah. Two of the genuine greats. Yeah.

And Simon Russell Beal. Okay. Oh, man. Yeah. Murder is right. Truly. Lilia, not a day over 450 years old. Pretty rude stray from Agatha.

I mean, she's about to break out the eviction notice as leverage, but like, did she have to take a shot at the Murphy bed? Oh, I know. That's just practical. That's just practical. It's a good use of space. Exactly. Incredible. Yeah.

Maybe not the. the most supportive mattress, but listen, you know, needs must. You make your space work for you. Exactly. Yeah. So the eviction notice is there. And I love that as like a incentive to do. Everyone has to have their incentive to do this. Right. Um, as a little bit. Like, what does she think Agatha is actually after? Oh, her power. Her power. And she's like, power. She's, she's, right. Right. Right. And I try to get them to plaster. Well, I also like that Agatha gives us the audience a little refresher on her power set and how it works and stuff like that.

That's very useful. The three of Pentacles. Yes, tell me. This is going to be potentially, I don't know how frequently this is going to crop up. We've got two instances in this episode. I'm calling this tarot reading TM with Joanna Robinson TM. I'm a little better with the major archana than I am with a minor arcana. But the minor icon, but the minor icon, this card here is the three of pentacles.

And it's a neutral card. So, like, it can be for good. If you pull the three of pentacles, you're not like, as you would be with maybe some other cards, right? So it's a neutral card. But, and its designation is sort of like teamwork among other things. So is this teamwork for good or teamwork for ill? But it makes sense that that would be a card that would sort of prompt her to then write down the names of the team here. Thank you.

Three names and a black heart, you know? We're just thriving today. It's great. Oh, man. Joe, from the psychic. Yeah. What if we watched an MCU show that was about pornographic baseball players? I feel like that would be the most Mallory thing you've ever seen.

This is a witch musical. I just don't know what else I can possibly say. Oh, man. You know, I'm a candle enthusiast. I like a candle. It was fun to go to the candle shop here. The Goop Emporium. Jennifer.

Yeah. Jennifer, exactly. Truly Goopheumporium. Yeah. Jennifer Kale, extremely powerful, which from the comics, who's a part of many groups over a canon that dates back once again to the 70s. A lot of 1970s. Yes. In our Marvel references here.

Quite a bit here. Quite a bit here. At one of the groups that Jen is a part of at one place is Midnight's Sun. So that's fun just because, of course, that's, you know, we haven't had an excuse in a second. second here to talk about the Midnight Sons in Marvel, but like horror storylines. A group we could build towards if we ever wanted to actually acknowledge that Werewolf by Night existed. And it did and it ruled. So we should do another, I should do another Halloween viewing, Wehrwolf by Night. I think I'm going to make it a yearly. I mean, it's so good. It's how you can cap the Agatha journey, because this is going to conclude.

Halloween. All right. double premiere and double finale. If you're looking for snacks for that viewing, I'm pleased to offer you some of Jennifer Kale's edible candles. You do have to burn them before you eat them. It is an FDA requirement. Gross.

Enough. We're going to get to the class action lawsuit that teen uses to leverage Jen into joining the company. He's prepared. Great stuff from teen. Teen is prepared. Yeah. He's like, you really helped me with my. I love your instant.

And then he's like, 800 people are stupid of you because they needed skin grafts. But it's not all, it's not all skin graphs and lawsuits. Steve, what else does Jen sell? Hey, where do you keep your jade eggs? I'm fresh out of marbles and my pelvic floor is all over the place. Actually, you guys want to go splitsies on one? Hmm? Anyone?

Anyone? Sisterhood of the traveling Kegel? No? No? Oh. Take a jade egg to go. You'll know where to find it. Take a jadee to go.

You'll know where to find it is... Hall of Fame. 10 of 10. Wonderful. Sisterhood of the Trangling Heagles on the merch, Mallory? Is that... Should it be like, Sisterhood of the Trangling Heagles, quote, blast me you bitches? Is that what we're going for?

I mean... that's a vibe. Yeah. So when teen brings up the lawsuit, which is, again, great stuff from teen, just really on the spot, like,

and the double act between the two of them as their sort of, but is this a section about where you had some accent corner questions? I feel like this is where the vowels are slipping,

which is fine. But when Agatha says, historically we as a group don't do well in courtrooms. Really good. I love that the elsewhere the listing of all the ways that Agatha could potentially die.

No new methods. Nothing else. Nothing new? This is truly great stuff. Truly great. What did she make of the very, again, apparent history between Jen and Agatha? She says, God, Agatha, I haven't seen you since I've made a really pointed effort to never run into you again.

Great line. So she was a motto, by the way, I really liked on SNL and I felt like they never used her the way they should have on SNL. So I'm delighted to see her here. I think she's really fun. And yeah, so unlike Lilia, who was like, I know you by your reputation and Alice, who also seems to not know Agatha personally,

Jen and Agatha have like real history, as you say, like you already called out the child sacrifice line. Like, Jen has key biographical information about Agatha. Yeah. That will... Calls her a witch killer. She's got the...

She knows. Yeah. So, you know, maybe she's there to disabuse teen of his fandom you know, with the actual stuff she knows. But I think that that's really important that there's one which, other than Rio, on the road, that knows Agatha's number precisely. Yeah, great shout.

And, of course, like, we do get the counterweight of Agatha knowing about Jen because she's able to say, I mean, it is ultimately the lawsuits that cabell her, but she is able to make a more tailored pitch, right? Not just, like, I found this on your door, but you've been your magic has been stifled for a century by this binding spell don't you want to break free of it like come on the road with us and so yeah that what what might agatha then be able to what sort of charges are they going to hurl at each other how ugly might this get when will the fellowship begin to crumble oh no trial trial four at the latest i would say but probably earlier to the Ball. Alice Wu Gulliver, once again, comics character, as is established here in the show,

daughter of a witch, was a cop. The comics looking for like, what happened to her mom? And that's the mystery. And this is like, Agatha's just like, whatever happened to mommy? Like, don't you want to find out? And Alice, like, eventually shows up, but actually resists in real time here. I did, on the teen front, I did love the, like, wouldn't Orna Wu's daughter be? somewhere cooler like Brooklyn or a yacht. Great stuff. Delightful. I always love going to a mall in a story, you know. Makes me like a stranger thing season three.

I love a food court. Love a food court to my stories. What would be your number one food court destination? Right now, like for nostalgia's sake or actually when I was a kid? I was a real like pretzel stand kid. Like the Auntie Ann's pretzel got like a buttery, dripping down your fingers and coating your forearm as you eat it, kid. Yeah.

In the Owings Mills Mall, I grew up in Reisterstown, Maryland. So the Owings Mills Mall in Baltimore, which was our local mall, there was an Italian pastry shop called Vicaros in the food court. And they had the best fucking canolies and like a canolies. And like a canolie is still one of my favorite desserts as a result. That seems like it was like actually good food in your food court. And a very refined palette for a yester. I would say, like if I had to pick a place,

that I'm most identified with the food court. I would say an Orange Julius, even though I'd never had one. But like an Orange Julius, like, a Mrs. Fields cookie. I would, above all that. The smell of like the sugar hitting your nose. Above all that, I would go for a Sabaro slice. Slice of Sabaro pizza. Yeah.

That's food court royalty to me. Yeah. I have now, all these years later, a different association with that just because that was what they had at the Carrier Dome. So, like, for four years of college, I can't tell you how many slices I had at a few scams. My God. I can't tell you.

But yes, you're right. Food court staple. Oh, I am hungry. Let's carry on. So I guess that's distracted. So they get Alice fired, but not necessarily locked down that recruitment, though teen does leave. Like, you know, here's where you invite us. No, he doesn't with her.

He does with. But she finds them anyway, Joe. But she finds them anyway. She's a cop. That'll be the answer to a lot of things. I have questions about that. Okay. On the car ride home, yes.

We get another Billy Busherson's stanching of the mouth moment. And what is important to note, right, is that teen is not aware of this spell. Correct. Because he's blithely carrying on like she can hear him, right? So he is under someone else's spell or protection is, I think, how I would think about it. But he says, what we do hear him say, she's like, where you from, whatever. He says, originally, I was born. and raised in Eastview.

I think that originally is a wild thing to say about where are you from. Feels important, right? Originally? I was born and raised in Eastview. That's a normal thing to say, but originally, I was born and raised in Eastview. Stay tuned for Theory Corner. All right, what time is it, Mallory Rubin? It's Coving O'clock.

Hell yeah, TikTok, let's go. Agatha Hark just looks absolutely resplendent in her coven garb. Just sensational stuff. Remember that one of the fake subtitles of the show was The Lying Witch and her wardrobe And I think they're just like really crushing that With the costumes on this show Really good stuff

Incredible incredible If I woke up from a three-year trance I'd barely be able to stand And she's just like ripping off the fit Yeah Fit after fit Drip Lord Agatha Harkness You love to see it

Teen made a banner Agatha tears it down immediately Very sad Teen also made some snacks With a pentacle in the O Yeah he's going for it committed like put the little cocktail sticks in the expired granola yeah and between that he had to freshen up the liner on his on his tight line like yeah just so he's really going for

it just so so so everybody shows up jenn lilia even alice lilia and jenn i'm immediately ready for just many many scenes between them you're bound lilia says and you need a chemical peel Jen, remarkable. Lillia also calls Jen the High Priestess, and this is the second and also last tarot reading Tia which is Ravitin Tia. The High Priestess is, of course, a tarot card. Though this might be referring to something else,

but this is another, I would say, neutral card to pull, but it is one that indicates sort of intuition. However you decide to interpret that, It's a card that you usually want to read in the context of other cards, I would say. But I saw this one description of it, which is, it's the, you already know the answer, but you don't like it. So you're asking me to see if I'm going to tell you something different card, which sort of reminds me of Agatha in this episode. Like, she knows the answers to a lot of this stuff, but she's just like blinders on. So, but yeah, how that relates to Jen, I'll be interested to find out.

But intuition is sort of something to think about. And that's been Tero reading T.M. Was you right at Robinson T. Steve, we're definitely going to need a new sound drop for that. I feel like it's going to be a recurring segment. But what does the sound like shuffling cards? I don't know.

This is Steve's particular area of genius. And we have a week to find out how he delights us. I can't wait. I cannot wait. He's our tarot soundboard witch. Okay, got it. It's true. Green witch.

There isn't one. Okay. And Lilia is like insistent. Jen asked where the green witch is. Lillia's like, we absolutely have to have one. So she's like, it's in the lyrics. Exactly. It's interesting to me that they are able ultimately to conjure the road without one.

Because Mrs. Davis. Okay. Yeah. Well, oh, exciting. Stay tuned again for a theater to corner. Agatha deflects. And then she's like, when they have the exchange about it, it wasn't a name, it was a heart, a black heart.

That's because he used a black pen again. hilarious. So good. Agatha never misses a beat. It's genuinely great. So this is definitely Rio who said... 100% Rio. She's a black heart that only beats for you.

She goes to get Mrs. Hart, who's actually Mrs. Davis instead. And I love, like, Debra Joe Rupp being utilized here. Again, another, like, phenomenal side character in Wanda Vision. Debra Joe Rupp and a complete sitcom icon, obviously, from that 70s show, etc. And so I love... She's just, like, so excited. She's very... She's very kiddy-form.

in this mode. And she's very excited about a party. So, yeah. It's, I was like very touched by this. Like she's lost her husband. Yeah.

She's alone. The idea of sharing this evening. And then she gets there in the basement. I'm worried. I'm worried about. Concern. She's the ones if they're doing laundry. Very amusing when Jen's like,

who's going high preparing to sing the ballot. And Mrs. Davis says, oh, no, thank you. I don't take drugs. So good. Great stuff. Joe, it's time. It's time for this absolute banger of a song. We heard

part of it at the top. It is quite long. We're cutting to teen. It's in your scratch. Seeing and sensing the Salem 7 arriving as very spooky and cloaked home invaders. But this song

rich text on the lyric front, do you have a favorite? What would you like to say about this musical number? So a couple of things. This is our one and only email that I'm going to read in this episode. comes from Ryan, who says, is that one of the Salem 7? No, it's our mailbag call. Okay. Ryan said I'd seen interviews this week that Kristen Anderson Lopez and Robert Lopez worked on the music for Agatha. And when I heard the Ballad of the Witches wrote on the show,

their influence was immediately apparent. It's giving big frozen music vibes complimentary, particularly Frozen Heart. So Bobby Lopez and his lovely wife, Kristen, yeah, did the music for Frozen. did the music for Wanda Vision, the, you know, Agatha all along Bop and also Wanda Vision, one Wondavision, like that's all them. They rule. And shout out Avenue Q.

But for me, in terms of like which Frozen song this pings for me, I was thinking of All Is Found, which is the lullaby that Evan Rachel Wood's character sings the beginning of Frozen 2, which winds up being this sort of like literal like map to the truth of their backstory and their future in that film. Spoilers, I suppose, were Frozen, too.

Anyway, so I think that I feel like this, the reason this song is so long, I mean, I guess you didn't need to do the chorus so many times. I suppose you could trim some about there, but I think that given that the lyrics are I loved every second of it, to be clear. Same. The reason that the lyrics, the lyrics being the title of the episode. And then this idea that that means potentially we could find the titles for the rest of the season inside of the lyrics of this song. And the idea that that in turn could give us sort of a map for what we're going to see on the show.

Because like Circlestone with Fate, unlock the hidden gate. That's what they're literally doing when they're singing the song. And that's the title of that episode. Seekest thou the road, that's sort of like episode one sort of behavior. So what are some of these other lyrics going to show us in the show? show and that's like something I'm really, really excited to think about, to speculate on blood and tears and bone, like all, you know, there's a lot of death's hand in mine. Mm-hmm.

Ooh. So, yeah, it's not just a song, it's a map. Love it. Love a song, love a map. Yeah. It's like a riddle. Love a fellowship. Yeah.

Love a riddle. It's all happening. Riddles in the dark trials. It's going to be great. So yeah, I really loved it. Something that I really loved is that, you know, they sang this at D23, which I also really enjoyed. I was like, first and foremost, I was like, no, I'll just, I'll just say this because I will say,

Debra Joe Rupp was on stage with them and, like, so clearly didn't know the words. And I thought that she, like, just didn't know the words. But it's a bit of the scene, but I didn't know that she was doing a bit. And I was like, man, no one taught Debra Joe Ruck the words. But she was doing the scene. Yeah. So my apologies to Deb. I thought you hadn't prepared.

but in fact, you were just in character as Mrs. Davis saying, am I supposed to know this song? So, yeah. It's so funny. Yeah. Is the death lyric, your favorite lyric from the song? I'm, like, very intrigued by just in terms of like what might await where all that's wrong is right and all that's bad is good through many miles of tricks and trials will wander high and low.

So, like, this idea of. Especially bad witch, good witch, sort of that idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like that's also near the end. So that feels like truths revealed and choices confronted in a key late season episode. But follow me, my friend, to glory at the end.

That might be the orgasmic climactic payoff when our heroes are reunited in the, when Rio and it's just a two-hander of phrasing with Rio. I mean, two-hander. Yeah. Jeez. Sounds great. Okay, great. Damn me. Yeah.

Damn me. God, be good. This was an act. I've said this like a hundred times classic actual contender for me for funniest moment when they stop singing after minutes upon, like many, many minutes. And Agatha says some feedback for you. It did not take this long last time. That's what she said.

By the way. This is just so great. And then this is where she tries to incite them to rage. We can start, we see the magic starting to sparkle and crackle in the fingertips, calls them cowards, calls them frauds, invokes their, quote, noxious mediocrity, wants them to attack and blast so that she can suck up their magic. But before things can completely unravel, the gate appears, the door appears, they have conjured the road.

I have loved, I love this because the inclusion of the seven is this sort of like external and culture. And we did a whole episode on portal worlds. This is essentially a portal world story. And so one of the ways in which, I don't know that we talked about this specifically, but one of the ways I like narratively for people to go into a portal to another world is like by necessity. You scramble into the portal because

something is threatening you in the real world and you have no choice, but to oops, throw caution to the wind and go into these like trap doors that have opened up in someone's basement. So even, you know, Agatha is is, you know, like, teen is like, we got to go. I've seen with these Salem 17-Q, we've got to go. Does not bring Signor Scratch with him. I know.

It's interesting. Feels important. Does feel important. And also, he was doing a good job cuddling senior scratch, I thought. He was. Yeah. Yeah. So the bunny does not come along for the ride, but teens down there.

The rest of the team goes down. Follow your, you know, follow your heart. Like, do what you want to do. And then the tractor disappears and we're in it. I loved when they took their shoes off, like rooting your toes in the earth and the magic of the world and the road in this experience. So Rio, not there. Trailer, that will be a temporary state of affairs. Correct.

This is not the last we'll see of Opry Plaza on this show. Thank the gods. Should you do theory? Quote the gods. Joanna Robinson, darkest hour, wake thy power. Take us to theory. Corner. That a little psychostatic. Sounds cute. I love it. Thank you, Steve. Okay. Teen. Time to speculate. Really. You go. You don't want to hear this. Like, thanks for spending your time with us today. We welcome you back in week three. Teased off go. This is Billy Kaplan. Who is Billy Kaplan for people who don't know, Mallory Rubin? This is, this is, this is, this is Billy and Tommy.

And there are, the, Billy Kaplan specifically, though, is, this is Wicken. Yeah. And also there's a very, um, long and complex and we don't have time to get into it all today. Comics canon about like, so when Billy says here, if this is in fact Billy, which it is, originally, assume. Originally, like, Billy Kaplan is in fact born and raised. and lives a life with the Kaplan's. So this question of how Wanda's kids and their essence, like, returns,

it does involve in Mephisto and Master Pandemonium. So of all the Mephisto things that, like, are going to excite people, this is definitely one of them. Kaplan versus Maximoff or whatever Vision's last name is. is what everyone has been expecting that Joe Locke is playing in the show. So this isn't like anything outside the box. But I think, you know, the question of the how is interesting. And what I love is that they've turned the mystery into something plot important.

They're not just being like dumb and coy and concealing something we've all figured out immediately. It's like it's part of a spell that we presume maybe a protection spell that Wanda has put on the essence that you know, or children or either intentionally or just, you know, in that kind of Harry Potter Mother's Love kind of way, you know, who knows? But yeah, could it be anyone other than Wanda hiding him from Agatha? I say no, but, you know, I'm curious what you think. I mean, I guess it could be, there could be some, like, I mean, again, it could be some Mephisto tie. There could be some sort of, like Dr. Strange, like mystic art connection, perhaps. But I agree with you.

I think what's most likely is that Wanda's magic is responsible for this in some way. And I think like the fact that they're standing, say, for example, in front of something like the foundation of Wanda and Vision's house. It's been graffiti. Yeah. Yeah, graffiti doesn't seem to like be pinging at all for Billy's. Yeah, because Billy Kaplan lives his life as Billy Kaplan before he realizes sort of who he is.

So, like, is this a Billy that has just maybe when Wanda died, like, woken up himself to his own identity? Or is he yet to wake up and we will see that process over the course of the show? So biographical info

that made it through the spell, I thought it was interesting, which is like, when they were talking about Alice's mom and he says, she wrote the most famous version of the Valley, my mom went to see her last to her right before she died.

RIP, I bid on a limited edition sign LP in the ballot. It costs more than I make in a whole summer at the Hokie Pokey Bowl. So two things I believe are true of Billy Kaplan is that Mrs. Kaplan, not Juan Maximoff, saw Lorna Wu in concert and Billy Kaplan worked at the Hokey Pokey Bowl. But, you know, is that the same belly questions abound. What I think is interesting is it makes him this like sort of mystery McGuffin in and of himself. Teen is this like, so, So my question around that is like, teen claim, we saw him chant the Latin. He claims he's the one who broke the spell.

Right. And like, studying. Yeah. And, you know, does he have the Jews to do that? Maybe in particular because he's Wanda's kid. Like, maybe all of that is true. Or did Rio actually break the spell? Like, we only have his word for him that he's the one.

They both showed up at the same time sort of trying to wake her up and one. way or another. But like, how much power does he have if he's one of Maximoff's kid? Right. And what does that mean to, you know, an Agatha, who is a power leech or anyone else who might understand that there is an incredibly powerful secret force user on the witch's road here, you know? Yeah.

It feels like a very. rich test for Agatha to have to face at the end. Like she wanted to steal Wanda's power. If she and teen are on this shared trial and shared road and bonding experience, and if in fact he is reminding her of Nikki, her son, and something terrible happened there, and then in order to maybe gain the power that she has been seeking, she has to take it from him and she chooses not to, maybe that's the test and that's the trial for her. I mean, Wiccan is like an extremely powerful character.

Yeah. So and like, and even just what we saw from with Billy and Tommy the twins in Wanda vision, you know, Tommy is like zipping around, right? And Billy is having a much harder time coming to terms with his power, right? He's like, these voices in my head are really loud. And so when he's near Agatha, he likes it because he says it's quiet. Yeah. And so like it's interesting to think about, I mean, Billy's power.

But Billy's power is just like, it's a hard thing for him to come to terms with and wrap his arms around and learn to control and understand. So I'm excited to watch him on that journey. Do you have two questions. Do you think that Tommy is going to be in the show, too? Is he going to find Tommy somewhere along the trial? Well, the question is. And also is Boif, if it is, in fact, Billy Kaplan, is Boif, Holklin? I mean, how could Boif be anything other than Hulkling?

Like, it feels like it has to be so. And this is all Young Avengers Fodder, you know, which they have been laying the track for elsewhere. This is what we know about the quote, the road promises that what's missing awaits you at its end. And he says, power is what I'm missing? But like, is that true or is he actually seeking his mom? Is he seeking Wanda at the end? Or is he seeking Tommy at the end? Like, what is he really after?

I don't know that we should believe him when he says power. So that's teen, AKA who's really? Rio. Agatha's ex. We don't know if she broke the spell instead of Billy. I have, I don't know, complicated thoughts about that. Aubrey Plaza said fans are going to freak out when they learn who her character is,

which is what a delectable thing to say. Also, just want to note that Aubrey Paza loves lying and fucking with people in an interview. So just want to put that out there as like, I have done interviews with her where she is just like, I did a Legion interview with her with Dan Stevens and she just told me all these lies and then Dan Stevens is like, none of that happened.

Don't print any of that. And I was like, okay. Because she was bored and trying to have fun and I was just like, I'm just trying to do my job. But that's okay. Okay. So who do you think Rio might be? So there are a lot.

This one is certainly spark. I would say that if we tried to sum up what's happening on the internet. And there are certainly a lot of theories across the board. I would say, like, teen as Billy Kaplan is like, there aren't a lot of competing contenders matching that level of certainty. Yeah. There are a number of, there are a number of theories for who Rio the Green Witch could be.

But I think the leading contenders are Morgan Lafay and Blackheart. And the Blackheart one is the one I'm really interested in after these. episodes which focused so literally on the idea of her black heart because who is black heart joe say it with me the son of mephisto daughter of mephisto oh my god so could that fulfill the prompt of fans are gonna because fans fans are not gonna freak out if they hear black heart heart they're going to be like who i mean i guess by fans she means like hardcore comics fans but if you say daughter of mafisto i think people will break out my dad would yeah send people into a tizzy uh Morgan LaFay

I think would be a really fun name recognition kind of character for her to be. I just need to tell you that ever since she was announced

as Rio Vidal, I have been trying, and it's been months, I've been trying to anagram that name to be something else.

And no luck at all. But also important, she speaks a little Spanish inside episode one. And so important to note, you know, that like Rio means river in Spanish. So then I started thinking about River Song because, of course, like, River Song and

Melody Pond was this big, like, name game in Doctor Who. So I don't know. I spun myself out. I've tuckered myself out for months trying to figure this out. So welcome to the party pals. Who's Rio Vidal? I don't know. What do you want to say about Nikki Scratch?

I think we covered this. I think we covered this, yeah, at this point. What else you want to hit in theory corner? Alice's mom. Alice's mom. Okay, so I've got my eye on Alice because she's sort of the most unassuming of all of them

and that's why I have my eye on her. So like, there's the line, rumor has it, Lorna Wu was lost to the Witch's Road. So this tantalizing possibility that she's on, that they're going to find her on the road, like that part of one of their trials

is going to involve finding Lorna Wu on the road. And I don't know if you know this, but she sings a killer version of the ballot. So that's an exciting promise. Or, I don't know, did Agatha Rio kill her on the Witches Road? Like, you know, I know that Agatha was like, don't you want to find out what happened to

Mommy? But like, and maybe if I'm the one who killed her, I wouldn't say that. But I don't know. It's interesting. But here's what she says. When she shows up and they're like, how did you? And she says, quote, I'm an ex-cop. It's going to be the answer to a lot of questions.

That pinging something for me. And again, I might be overthinking things, but it's just sort of like if she does a bunch of stuff and she just goes, oh, I'm an ex-cop. And that's her explanation for a lot of fishy behavior. That could maybe cover for us this idea that she has some other agenda or is a mole of some kind. I don't know. So I don't know. That line just like her. Who sent her to Mephisto?

Lillia. Oh, Lillia, I really like this theory because when we see her how. her little freakouts in her kitchen. It's like she's talking to someone else. And so I really like this theory that we're going to see like the other side of that conversation in a later episode with Memphis. Have we hit our limit yet? And last one of least, this is in the theory corner because it's sort of like trailer

spoilers. And I feel like if you're in theory corner, you like a trailer spoiler anyway. So when when teen says to Agatha about Salem, one of them. of my favorite quote, You eras. A shout out to the Swifties, right? I'm wondering if we're going to go on a little bit of an eras tour. And by eras tour, I mean, like, witches' eras.

So, like, we've seen in trailers, Aubrey Plaza's character in sort of, like, Salem-era witch garb. So we're going to do, like, a Salem era something on the witches road. We've seen the characters dressed up as, like, Glinda the Good Witch from the Wizard of Oz. the Wicked Witch of the East from the Wizard of Oz and the Cron from Snow White. So there's this like 30s Disney Wizard of Oz era

kind of thing we might go through. There's like a 70s sort of disco. You see Sears Amada's character in this sort of like 70s disco thing. So I was wondering if you were doing like Susperia 1970s. And as you noted, a lot of this comics canon comes from the 70s. So it's like a really, is that where we're,

going to see Lorna Wu. Is she in some sort of trapped in an alternate disco singing a version of the ballad forever and ever and ever? I don't know. Excited to find out. We get 80 sort of summer camp, nightmare on Elm Street, horror. There's like nods to like the exorcists and stuff like that. And then there's like 1990s like the craft sort of stuff.

So like similar to Wandavision going on the tour of decades through television, are we doing a witch's era's tour on the road via trial? We make bracelets? Yes. Absolutely. Shout out, by the way, to all the bad babies who have brought us bracelets, both at, like, book events or live shows or whatever. You guys really made us feel part of the whole swift summer experience. How wonderful.

I know. Which stuff? I love the bad babies. Which stuff go. Nearly at an end here, we just have to unlock thy hidden gate Easter egg time. Love that. There are. fuck a lot of Easter eggs in these episodes.

So as usual, we're just going to narrow down by each sharing a favorite or two. A lot of them have already come up today in the discussion. But Joe, what was your favorite Easter egg in the two-part premiere? Did you have one? I think probably the library card dates one, where all the dates were birthdays

of key marble figures plus the WandaVision premiere date. So Lizzie Olson's birthday, Kevin Faggie's birthday, Stanley's birthday, at Kirby's birthday. That's just fun. That's a fun thing for a prop master to put together. Are the Fawd's clues? But are they? I'm not giving up on this. That's a great one. My favorite is definitely, it's definitely in the true crime opening credits when we see the scoreboard. The mascot could have been fucking anything. It was blue devils. When they put devils in

because they want us thinking about fucking Mifisto. I really feel like John Chishapher. I really feel I really feel like Jack Schaefer is going to have like real catharsis, actually putting Memphis or something. Oh, and something we didn't say about Nikki Scratch, but the, you know, Matt Schackman, who was a series director and also Jack Schaefer in her interview that she did on my podcast, talked about the original ending that they had planned. There was more for Ralph Boner to do, by the way. And it involved Nikki Scratch turning to this sort of like demonic bunny sort of figure.

So are they going to get to do, is Jack going to get to do her original planned Wanda Vision? Because there is a on-fire demonic figure in the trailer for Wanda Vision. So, like, is that going to be a sort of Nicky moment for us? Who's to say? That would be fun. Yeah. It just feels like closure to her. Like, if she gets to do Mephisto and also the demonic bunny things she wanted to do,

sounds great. I love that for her. So, yeah. Got to turn Andrew Ogo into Wondegor? What can't we do in Agatha all along? Exactly. My goodness. Okay.

Everyone's been waiting. We had a couple other blank TM with Joanna Robinson TM today, but there's only one true blank TM with Joanna Robinson TM. And it is wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson DM. You have been outdoing your usual standard of unrivaled excellence on the rings of power pods. I mean, when they lay a banquet as rich and meaty as the wigs on rings of power, How can you not, you know, sup deeply? No.

Let's talk about which wigs. Steve, give us our sound cue here, and then we'll let Joe run free. Do you wear weeks? So the promise of the Erez tour and all the looks that might come with it promises a lot of future wigs, and I'm really excited about that. I do want to shout out a couple things really quickly. Patty Lupone's, like, spiral perm curls 10 out of 10, no notes. Love that. Love her.

Alice's shag with the like pops of color in it I think looks incredible but more than anything else because Catherine Hahn I mean like her Agatha wig had to do a lot of work in terms of covering

her bits and pieces right but before that when she was in mare mode Catherine Hahn I have seen her we all have seen her in the wild she has incredible hair thick beautiful lustrous hair this is just like one of her

hallmarks. For the mayor section, she let them, like, I don't, I'm not actually even sure it was her hair because the part was so thin. They just, like, really either really tamped down her hair or whatever, but there's just like a lot of skin showing on her part in a way that reminds us, of course, of the, like, terrible brassy highlights in Kate Winslet's hair as mayor. So I just, I really, I loved the mayor hair. That was my favorite. Absolutely. That's all I have to say about wigs. That's it? You got to be your truest and best self today. Thank you for creating the safe space where I just get to be me.

Oh, man, Joe, we did it. We made a podcast. We don't mind a lapsed expiration date. But that is a wrap. That is a wrap on today's episode. We would like to thank our Coven, Steve Allman, and our Juno Ramgapal, as always, for production and podcast supervision. Jomea Denneron,

also as always, for social. And today, Stefanos Sanchez for video editing and John Richter and T. Cruz for video support. Remember, we will see you next week twice. We will see you on Thursday

for the Rings of Power season two, episode seven deep dive, and then on Friday for our Agatha all along, episode three deep dive. Until then, just remember. No, thank you. We don't take drugs. Thanks.