House of R - 'Ahsoka' Episode 4 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 9, 2023

Hey there Snips! It's time to dive deep into the fourth episode of 'Ahsoka' (08:53). Mal and Jo venture into deep space and discuss the riveting episode that takes our hero away from her apprentice and causes strife within (15:39). Much later, Ben Lindbergh joins for a discussion of the final scene in the world between worlds (02:49:18) Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Dave Chang here, host of the Dave Chang Show. You might hear me on with Chris Yang, Noel Cornelio, and a host of other guests. We've been on air for quite some time now, and it's changed over the years. But one of the things we always try to talk about is what's delicious, how to be a better eater. And you might hear me rambling incoherently, contradicting myself every five minutes. We talk about some sports and culture and all kinds of other things too. I think we're the most expert opinions you'll ever hear about anything. Check us out if you haven't before on the Ringer Podcast Network.

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Sabine, you and I share a common goal to make this journey. You to be reunited with your long-loss friend. And I, to serve a greater good. Come with me, willingly. I give you my word. No harm will come to you. Sabine, you will be reunited with your friend. It is the only way.

Do it for Esra. Greetings and welcome to House of Ar, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back into the ghost, but also to our new House of Our podcast feed. Joining me today to remind me that one must destroy in order to create. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson.

What's up, bed babies? You know, you know what I always say, Molly Rubin? You know what I'm always saying? You can't spell Shin Hottie without the Hottie, and you can't spell Bail in Skull without the Bay.

And I am fully converted to the Dark Siders today. Wow. Episode 4 of Asoka, let's go. Let's do it. Incredible. Incredible. I cannot wait for today's pod. I cannot wait to talk about this episode with you. We are, of course, here to dive incredibly deep.

Profoundly deep. Remarkably deep. Into the... Helms deep. Into the fourth episode of Asoka. But before we calculate our coordinates, programming reminders. House of our... Twice a week now. know the drill, but we're going to tell you anyway. We will be here with you on Tuesdays and Fridays. Follow the new feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and give us those five stars. We're loving them. Keep them coming.

We're gluttons. We want more. Next Tuesday. We will be here with the draft. It's draft time. The first draft on the house of our feed. That's where we truly christen the new feed with our first draft. And we're doing a little droid draft, exact format and participants to be announced on that very podcast.

Yeah, we don't know exactly what the qualifications are yet, but I will say when Mallory and I were... We have a lot of thoughts. It's going to be fun. When we were wandering around Lucasfilm, we were so privileged to have a little mini tour of Lucasfilm, every time we ran out a corner and there was like a little statue of a droid, we were both like, oh, no, this one's my favorite. Right. So, you know, a lot of, a lot of stakes are high. Stakes could not possibly be higher on a droid draft as far as I'm concerned. So here we go. It's Huying season. Deroids are top of mind. It's going to be an absolute blast and probably a shit show that tears us apart until we make our way back together mere days later on the Asoka Part 5 deep dive.

Catch up as well on the pod from this past Tuesday, which was the latest House of Who. our Doctor Who rewatch continues, and we went long. We went deep. We went into the TARDIS, and the runtime was bigger on the inside for our pod on Matt Smith's 11, the 11th doctor. We had a blast. Check that out if you haven't yet. Over on the ring reverse, it's buzzing. It's popping.

Pods of plenty. Got some bonus action this week. Charles, Jess, and Justin Charity chatted about One Piece. which is animating the fandom. People are loving One Piece. Buttonmash, Jess and Ben, have an RPG spectacular today. They are chatting Starfield

in Baldersgate 3 on the same episode that is already up for you on the Ring ofverse. And the Midnight Boys, boop, pew, pew! We'll, of course, be with you next Wednesday,

with their instant reaction to the fifth episode of Asoka, their pod on episode 4 was spectacular. Catch up on it if you haven't. And Junior Mence, next Friday, Mint Edition, we'll be back for more Harley Quinn talk. Barely a minute goes by where you don't have a new podcast somewhere in the ringerverse. What a time. Joanna. Gosh, yeah. Yeah.

Colleague. Yeah. Partner. Beloved. What. How can the people follow all of that? I'm so glad you asked me. What a relief that you ask me that question. Here's what I recommend. Let's keep it short and sweet. All the pots. Ringervverse and Havasar. And travely content and big. pick and all the other ones while you're at it. But certainly, ring or verse and house of our, follow those pots. And you'll never miss a, you don't want to miss a thing? You'll never miss a thing. Alternatively, if you don't like to keep things that simple, here's another simple idea.

Follow us on socials on Instagram, on TikTok, on Facebook, on Twitter. And Jomey will keep you informed about what is going on in these fandom feeds. Also, email us. Hobbes and Dragons is Gmail.com. That is Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We are getting so many Asoka emails, and they're all brilliant. And I just only regret that I cannot include all of them. I do my best to try to get representatives from like every topic raise.

But folks, it's a lot. Please keep sending them. I'm not saying don't send them. I'm just saying. So we're getting a lot. We love it. You're brilliant. We love how passion you are about this show because we are very excited about Asoka,

especially episode four. Maybe we'll do a mailbag at some point. At Asoka mailbag, we have ample... I'm saving them. Ample fodder. We'll see. That's a great idea. Always thinking.

Perhaps two weeks from now, we will be doing... Content. Always on the mind. I was just thinking of that exact date. Yeah. Last programming reminder. It's a friendly neighborhood one. It's your spoiler warning.

Today's podcast will feature plot points from the fourth episode of Asoka. All of Asoka to date. and everything that has ever happened in Star Wars. It's all on the table. Did it happen in the Clone Wars? Did it happen in Rebels? Did it happen in Tales of the Jedi? Did it happen in Boba?

Did it happen in Mando? Did it happen in the prequels? Did it happen in the original trilogy? Did it happen in Legends? Did it happen in the Zon Thrawn novels? It's all on the table today. Okay. Joanna, once a podcaster, always a podcaster.

Let's ride. Part four. Fallen Jedi, written by Dave Filoni, who, as we've mentioned, every pod has written every episode in this season of television. This is directed by Peter Ramsey into the Spiderverse fame, of course, directed Mando episode, The Pirate. This episode checked in at 40 minutes. And every second we got was magic. Let's start there, just like old times, with the opening snapshot. Joanna.

Yeah. We're going to be potting for hours today. Correct. Give us a little taste of what's to come. We all have like several beverages in front of us. Quick sense of your response to this episode. Molly, here's one thing I love about you. There's so many things I love about you, but what I really love is how much you love to be right.

And what I really love is how you've taken too subtle victory left all. already about the fact that Hara and the Ghost showed up in this episode. But I will say, for the record, and this is true, you convinced me I was wrong the minute we stopped recording last week. You sent me evidence and I was like, oh, yes, you're right. And I cannot be more thrilled to be wrong because I love Hara, love the ghost. I hope she's in every single goddamn episode. I'm thrilled to see her. Great episode of television. Thrilling, wonderful, and maybe even more joyously for me, I'm sure there's still plenty of people who are not having the time of their lives of Osoka, but like this seems to have changed a lot of people's

minds about how they, you know, the Midnight Boys are just a drop in the bucket in terms of like people saying, this is more like, this is what I want from Asoka. And that is really exciting because I just love when people are loving the thing that we're watching. It enhances my enjoyment personally. So it's okay if you don't like it. You don't have to like it. That's fine. That's your business. But the rise in enthusiasm sort of buoys me. And yeah. Yeah. How about you, Mo? Yeah, it's really fun to feel, not just to see in here, but like feel in the air, the rising shared enthusiasm this week. It's been great.

I thought this episode was incredible. I absolutely loved it. I was texting you like a maniac at 2.30 in the morning when I finished watching it. And guess what? You were awake and texted me back. You're the best. What I love is that I text to you back. This is my favorite kind of texts is I when someone's text to you at like a preposterous hour.

And you text them back, what are you doing up? As if I wasn't also up at 2.30 in the morning. Anyway, my rev cycle is trash. Yeah. And your giddiness just made me so happy too. Because, like, you were really looking forward to this specific episode. You said so last week. Yeah.

Yeah. It felt like we were on the brink of something. You know, sometimes you get those moving the pieces around the board episodes. to reposition the characters. And I still felt like we got a lot of, like, rich conversation last week. But this episode start to finish. Like, seeing the ghost in live action was amazing. Then you pan across the entire episode and, like, the theme that stitched together every

character set in a plotline of the ghosts of the past and how they manifested for characters and how they're shaping the future was, I thought. just like riveting. Asoka's ask, Sabine's choice, Bavlin's temptation and judgment, the like propulsive, really visually stimulating but also character-driven and arc adherent action. Yes. The world between worlds and live action. Anakin fucking Skywalker, Vader's theme kicking in as we cut to black and go to the end credits. Most crucially of Paul Marook going out in a cloud of kissing Greek gas. And like this episode had it all.

Peels of laughter from us, to be clear. Like I laughed like an absolute loon when when the smoke came pouring out of that kid. That was fantastic. Truly great. So funny. I love this episode. It had everything. It was great.

And like I cannot truly cannot wait for next week, which feels like it's going to be a Super Bowl. A pop culture super bowl. Well, I want to talk about next week because, you know, as we have eagerly discussed, In the various ringerverse text threads and stuff like that, there is a, like, fandom movie theater screening event of episode five. We have been talking about episode five all season long because this is the one that, like, Rosario Dawson says, is her favorite, Dave Faloni, very conspicuously is directing this? I am very curious what the runtime is going to be.

You know what I mean? Like, if they're showing in the theater, is this going to be like over an hour? Could be, you know, something like that. How long will our party? I don't need to get everyone's hype up that much. But for me, even like the big screen, I won't get to see on the big screen because I will be on a plane. But maybe I'll watch it on a plane as Faloni definitely wanted me to on my phone. Flying to see me so that we can watch it together.

Right. That's right. But it's not right. But the premise, the problem. Potential promise. We're going to talk about, obviously, some forward-looking thoughts and theories. But, like, I've talked to you before, actually, specifically about the kind of episode I think we might be getting next week. When we talked about, regrettably not the greatest show, Moon Night, there was an episode of Moon Night where, you know, our guy is trapped in the underworld. And it's this sort of like trapped in a mine palace, trapped in an underworld trapped in a dream space kind of, not a bottle episode, but just like a very contained.

episode. Star Trek loves to do it. Supernatural, love to do it. We talked about Amy's choice in our recent Doctor Who, you know, like stuff like that. This is like one of my favorite premises for an episode of television. And so like the possibility, not a promise, but the possibility that we are in the world between worlds for an entire episode and we're dipping in and out of Star Wars canon is just has me buzzin. I'm so excited. So yeah. I can't wait. I would be, I would be elated if we got that. If we move in and out of a few different storylines, that would also be great.

I just can't believe what we got in this episode and how it ended and what it positions us for next week. I am so thrilled. And then for that to be episode five, and to know there are three after, it just bodes quite well for the back half of this season. And what a treat it might be for Star Wars fans every week and how wide the world,

not just between worlds, but the world that we all inhabit as Star Wars fans might get within a matter of days. This episode is brought to by Weather Tech. Everyone knows winter

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Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. Every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel, through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. We're excited for next week. We're excited for right now when we get to talk about part four, Fallen Jedi. Nothing can prevent our journey. It is time to dive. Deep deep. Oh, boy. All right. We're going chronologically through the episode. As always, we're going beat by beat. word by word.

Very a glance will go undiscussed. Not a swing of a blade. Not a raise of an eyebrow. Not the flick of a perfectly bleached bang. We're here for all of it. We open. The T6. We're repairing a ship and we're preparing for a rift.

Sabine and Hu Yang are in it, Joe. Wires here. Equipment there. they need to establish communication with Hara. They're grounded. They're sitting ducks. They can't get a transmission out. This is a problem.

Sabine goes outside to chat with Asoka about next steps. But is there anything that you would like to say about the state of the vessel? We got a lot of emails on this. We were admiring how adaptable the center space of the T6 is how it can be your dining room. Your dojo, whatever you needed to be. We got a lot of people pointing out the drawbacks of this. And Mallory is someone, I know you don't like wearing like outside pants inside your house. So I wonder if this would-

Would not dream of it. I wonder if this would ping for you. Austin wrote in speaking for the masses. I heard the discussion on this up about Asoka's multi-use room and had to throw in my two cents. I love the multifunctionability of the room to be open for light sleeper practice while also having a full hollow table and seating area. but I have some serious questions about the cleanliness of such a setup. In the first step, I thought, okay, just walking on the seat cushions, which is kind of odd, but not the worst thing.

And the hollow projector map is whatever, as long as there are no lenses you're smudging. But in episode three, Sabine has her tea on the hollow table, which indicates this is also a primary dining location in the ship, and the floor. Is this not the same thing as just eating on the floor? Is there some sort of multipurpose surface in Star Wars? that auto sanitizes after every use is Hu Yang also being forced to tidy the room before they raise the table up. Imagine all the sand. I mean, sand gets everywhere, Mallory. What do you think?

What do you think at this point? It's coarse and it's irritating. I hate it. I, here's my response. Yeah. Long ago. And by long ago, I mean, way. Yes. During three seasons of the Mandalorian, I decided to let go of questions about hygiene and Star Wars because my guy, my guy, Dingerian, what is the, what is the skincare routine? How often are we washing our face? Are we exfoliating?

Would there not be like a chafing situation of some guy? This is so, so many. So many questions. So many questions. And so I have decided, unlike, you know, my typical tendency, which is to scream at Chris Ryan on an episode of the hottest take about changing outfits the second that you walk in the door, decided to let all of these characters who have a lot on their minds and are making a lot of mistakes that might impact the entire fate of the galaxy. I'm going to let them eat wherever they fuck they want. I'm going to let them drink their tea wherever the fuck they want. And if it brings them even an iota of peace and happiness and harmony, then I'm glad.

I'm glad that they have that. And I'm glad that they have this efficient setup in their lives. The only other thing I'll say is that I feel certain Hu Yang is not cleaning up after them. I feel certain that he's like, you have made a mess. tidy it. I really feel strongly that it is like all the door, other doors seal off and then like some sort of spray happens that instantly dries. But anyway, I'm glad that they broke in your spirit around a deeply held belief that you have long cherished.

And thus is the power of Star Wars. Exactly. Exactly. What can't Star Wars do? I hope if there is some sort of disinfectant mist like that, then I guess we know that, like, the paint that's being used would be chemical proof because it held up well over the years. Unless the bedchamber isn't getting the same treatment that the living room. I dearly hope it is. Training spaces.

I fondly hope it is. What's going on in the bedroom on that ship? Who can say? Maybe not enough. Everyone's pretty tightly wound. Okay. Yeah. Thank you to Austin for that inquiry.

Outside. Sabine finds Assoca, who has something on her mind. And this is going to be an ongoing area of discussion for Asoka and for us on this podcast. We're going to kind of take this, breaking this down, all of the elements at play here in phases. Steve, can we hear this first exchange? The enemy has the map and the means to get where they want to go. I fear we face a difficult choice, which is, if we can't make the journey to find Ezra, then no one should. It won't come to that. It might have already. He'd be stranded out there. Maybe this time for good.

Better that than allowing Thron's return as heir to the empire. Let's find that ground base. Sabine, can I count on you? You know you can. Joanna Robertson. Yeah. Before we get into your excellent beat-by-beat, breakdown of this paragraph, can I just pull out one word? Please.

I highlighted this before, but once again, Asoka is using the word enemy. This is the third time she has used it, right? The enemy has the map. She says here, the skills alone will not be enough to defeat our enemy. She said earlier, nothing is certain except our enemy's belief that they know where to look. And I just think it's a really weird word to keep having her use. And I don't know. I feel, I hope that it indicates some sort of state of mind that hopefully she needs to be working on.

Work through. Yeah. And move on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you called that out in prior episodes. And so I've been like, I've been watching for it. And it was interesting not only to hear the recurrence from Asoka, but to hear like Hu Yang use that word and see that it had kind of like permeated their camp and their team.

It's a, it's a fascinating thing. It's a fascinating thing. I do think that our beloved Asoka has some stuff she needs to work through over the next few episodes. You know what? I love a character on an arc. Good thing she's going to the World Butooned World's Therapy because I think she needs it. All right. Indeed.

What's going on here? So, this was one of the possibilities that we discussed in our preview pods. Could the fact that, yes, both Asoka and Sabine would want to find Ezra, both Asoka and Sabine would want to stop Thron. That's a common goal and a shared goal. But would the impetus for one over the other prove to be a forked? in the road at some point. And we got like a little bit of reinforcement for that possibility in the premiere when Asoka said this isn't just about finding Ezra.

It's about preventing another war. And Sabine said, you think I don't know that. And of course, this episode, before we get to Sabine's actual choice in Bailin's temptation and the map in her hand, this episode is opening with multiple notes priming us for this decision to come and this potential divide between these two characters. So we're going to talk more about both of those aspects, about what Asoka is actually asking of Sabine and what the thing she is asking Sabine to do implies, implies for Asoka, implies for Sabine, implies for how we think about where these characters are on their journey.

We're certainly going to talk about the choice Sabine makes and what that means and where we land on her decision. Let's chat for a minute here about that. Can I count on you note? Because that has also been recurring. In the premiere, when Sabine went back to the T6 and looked at the map in the first place, and Asoka asked her not to leave, and she did, it felt like this, like, not trivial thing, but almost a way to show that they're not, like, communicating effectively.

They have a little bit of a chasm they need to bridge. But it was an indication that, like, the ability to ensure definitively that the thing you say to the other person is going to happen is not really the state of play between them currently. And it's not just that we as audience members are waiting and wondering if some sort of a fracture is going to unfold. It's like, Osoca clearly is. Like, this is something that she is bracing for. We feel it. Sabine feels it. That doubt is really palpable across the episode.

And I was interested in thinking about that, obviously from the Asoka side of things, but for Sabine, we've talked a lot about, like, what does it mean for us to think about Sabine as a Padawan, an apprentice? What does it mean for us to think about Sabine as a character who is trying now to tap into the force? But what does it mean for Sabine to be a character who basically has to do what someone else sets? Because she's always been so fiercely independent. And, like, she's, like, she's, She's innovative. She's creative. But I think if you had to pick, like, one word to describe her independent would at least be in the consideration set for, like, central defining traits. Her loyalty to her family, to Mandelor, to the Spectors eventually, none of that was ever blind adherence. Like, I think one of the reasons we were drawn to Sabine as a character initially in Rebels is because you would have something like this fierce commitment to protect her fellow Spectors, the fellow members of the ghost crew. and an episode where she would say to Hara multiple times,

I need to know who fulcrum is. Like it's not enough for me if you say, just trust that I'm telling you it's fine. Like I need more than that. And I've been in situations before where people just asked me to do whatever they said and that wasn't enough for me.

And so even like apart from the actual specificity of what they're talking about here, that dynamic of like, was that ever going to be a reality that Sabine could live inside of and exist in comfortably? I think is fascinating. And I think, I mean, I know you're focusing on Sabine here, and I think that's important,

but I think this question of trust, which of course, Bailen will call out specifically later, but that idea of trust between the two of them and what the backdrop hanging over their inability to find trust in each other is, because we talked about this. I've been thinking a lot, thinking about this episode, I've been thinking a lot about our Last of Us coverage, which we did on a different feed, the Prestige TV. podcast feed. But that Joel and Ellie journey to trust and how hard it is, and it's difficult on the one hand because Ellie is quite independent.

But on the other hand, she's also thirsty for family and connection. And Joel in that game and show is resistant because he is still aching from a loss. And so this idea that Asoka still aching from the loss of so many people, but most of Allianakin, is and how hard it is to trust someone again when the most important person in your life became one of the most notorious figures of evil in all of pop culture, let alone the galaxy. So I was thinking a lot. We're going to talk about this, I think, a little bit more as we go on, this idea of like, how we've seen scenarios like the one Sabina's presented with before and the example that we like to talk about a lot when we talk about Star Wars is Luke leaving Dagobah to go save Han and Leah and how much Yoda and Ben are against that for various reasons. But I was rewatching that sequence and one thing really stuck out to me as a parallel, again, it comes back to Anagan because Ben,

says to Luke, Luke, I don't want to lose you to the emperor the way I lost Vader. So, Ben and Yoda, I think we agree are, like, wrong in that instance of asking Luke not to go, even despite the way that that film ends as a loss for our heroes, the way this episode ends as a loss for our heroes. But Ben's, like, you know, anxiety there is so understandable once we understand. the years we've spent since, especially examining the relationship between Obi-Wan and between Anakin. So, you know, Asoka just still so wounded from the loss of Anakin, however, like, enlightened and steady she may seem. And what a rocky road that presents to connection to trust

again with her own Padawan. And we're going to be talking a lot about attachment and how that plays into all of that, but I think that, like, very specific, like, how loss can inform lack of trust. And there's an echo of that when Luke leaves Daigobarite and Yoda says, you know, reckless is he, right? Told you I did, reckless as he. And it made me think of Asoka talking to Hara and saying, you know, that Sabina is still as stubborn and bullish as ever, right? It's just sort of like these cyclical things that all were rolled around.

And what did Anakin say in the early days to Asoka? You're reckless little one. Yeah, reckless. So. It's like poetry? It rhymes. I wonder, you mean old Ben Kenobi? I do you mean old Ben Kenobi.

I love it. Oh, it always makes me laugh. The Joel and L.A. Comp is a wonderful one. That's, I love that. And yeah, your point about Asoka. And like the way that this is so often, I think one of the things that we really love about the Clone Wars as a show is allowing you to like live in that moment with the characters where you see and they maybe start to glimpse that actually the doubt or fear or turmoil that they're experiencing and maybe like

blaming another person for not recognizing is actually the thing the other person is feeling too and how much of this is actually something that these characters have in common and how like deeply you know that's part of the heart of the tragedy the center of Star Wars like when the characters can't recognize that or work. through that together and they become opposed in something where they could, in theory, be united. And so, like, when Asoka is chatting with Hara in the second episode of the season and is saying that Sabine's not ready and Hara asks, I'm curious what makes someone ready. And Asoka says, you just know, so do they. Like, in theory, that's about Sabine. But it's,

to your point, just as much about Asoka and that question of how you can, recognize that about yourself, how you can recognize it about somebody else, and whether that state of readiness is ever a permanent and fixed thing. Because things happen in your life that open those wounds, that bring back that trauma and take you out of that state of readiness, even if you moved into it with each other for an episode. Which they did. What I was thinking about that a lot actually when watching this episode and thinking about next week, because like we have our guesses and anticipations of like what it is, Asoka still needs to work through.

And then I was, and then I had this voice inside my head of like, okay, but like haven't we met her in rebels and she'd already worked through some of that? And then I was like, Joanna, haven't you gone to therapy to talk about something that you thought

you had already worked through? I mean, like, this is just, this is just the truth of human nature is that we are constantly processing and reprocessing the same conflicts or traumas or however you want to put it. And I think, an attachment to Sabine or an attempt to form your own master-apprentice relationship would, of course,

kick up all of this gunk for Asoka in terms of her own role as an apprentice to, again, one of the most iconic representations of evil that has ever been or ever will be, Darth Vader. It actually has like just become like a Pavlovian response that like I just can't help but I said it four minutes ago so I won't actually say it again but I'm like my whole body moves to say I just like can't literally can't help it. I wonder for you to talk about a incredible journey we've been on together. I wonder for you talk about anything to do with Tolkien Leonard today. I don't know. You think it'll come up? I don't know.

Dezieldo! That's not even what I was thinking of actually. That's true. We have like multiple, multiple loader references come in to coming today. No, Loader is not allowed. It is illegal Mallory. You cannot call it Loader. No.

Why? I will let you do anything else that your heart desires in this world. Not that. I am the most benevolent and giving of podcast partners, but Loader is where I must draw the line somewhere. Okay. So that's it's a little. list of three things now. Can't talk about runtime before the pod. Which you're going to break today. Can't make a timeline.

Which you're going to break today. A good guess based on something of the episode, which I will be violating today and can't say loader. Okay. I can work with it. It's reasonable. All of it. It's just, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm rescinding the other two. It's just loader now. Oh. Just one rule. Okay. Are there any other, any other acronyms? that are really off limits. All right. So this is your version of like we can't talk about Mephisto or...

You wouldn't call it God. Right? I would sooner die. It feels different to me. Okay. Loader. All right. What's next?

Let's head to the reflex point. Preparations are happening in a couple different areas before we even hit our title cards. We shift to the Henge. And Joanna, it is buzzing with activity. Everyone's here. The lights are on. They're so tactile.

I really loved that. It feels like game day. I genuinely got Friday night lights vibes from the setup of the reflex of the reflex point base during this sequence. It was like ready to start singing. Should we sing Deviltown? Where's buddy? I was living in a devil down.

I was like, where's buddy Garrity? Didn't know it was a reflex point. Wow. Oh, Lord, it really brings me down about the devil town. Devil Town. Do you sing with me? All my friends were force users. I didn't know they were force users.

Turns out I was a force user by myself. Sabine's Sabine's on. Devil down. All right, I'm done. Wait, do you think that's from the point of view of Sabine or from the point of view of the pile of smoke that is currently inhabiting?

It's a great question. Mark and Sabine have both at some point been infested with the knight sister, Magic. So maybe both. Maybe it's a duet. Who knows? Who knows what Steve will workshop for us in post-production? You know I love a musical.

Thank you. Your girl, Shin, reports that the guards have found camp doesn't clicks away. Morgan? Yeah. Okay, great. Let's go. But they're not going to be able to stop Assook and Koferl long. Tough one for the assassin droids, but a reasonable read on the situation. And then Baylon turns to Shin and says, but you will. I loved this. I love that both you and I drilled down on this. Absolutely. But you will. Such like an important moment in terms of Like we were just talking about trust between a master and apprentice.

Yeah. Exactly. And so in the opening moments of this episode, we have these two juxtapose scenes back to back. And one of them is defined by doubt and questions and uncertainty. And one of them is defined by conviction and belief and encouragement. And it's just such a perfect note for the beginning of this episode. I loved that choice. I was rewatching, you know, the Disney Plus put up that little like seven minute video of Master and Apprentice.

We know, and, you know, obviously it's a title of an episode. We know the concept of Master and Prentice is so important to this series. But we got this great email I thought from Greg who on the Master and Apprentice beat says, I'm wondering if we'll see some of these same themes that have been merging with these characters, Assoca and Sabine, Hera, Jason, Thron and Morgan, Bailen, and, and Shin, Anakin Asoka, also come up between Thron and Ezra. I don't mean a literal master and apprentice relationship. I don't think that would make sense.

But maybe a complicated bond formed out of necessity. It would be interesting if these two had to rely on each other for survival in this other galaxy and that's led to something that's evolved from enemies into a dynamic that's more difficult to pigeonhole. That would certainly create a lot of great material for this larger Thron story moving forward. And something you and I, Malli, love to talk about when we did our prep was how Darth Mall was like constantly trying to claim Ezra as his apprentice. My apprentice. My apprentice.

So, you know, there's something, there's just something about Ezra where all the baddies are like, my boy, come do evil deeds with me. This is a fairly common theory that like, what if we, you know, it's been a minute that Theron and Ezra have been out in the back of the beyond. We don't know what they've been up to. Another one of our listeners, Larry, just sent a gif from the TV series Lost to show that you and I both love of when our survivors go and try to rescue Jack from the others, and he's playing football with Mr. Friendly, and they're like, what the fuck, Jack?

Is As we're going to be playing space football with Thron when Sabine rocks up to this galaxy further and further away? It's a good question. But I love this. I don't know if Theron's a football guy, but maybe they'll be training against really formidable droids together. Do I love it? In tight tank tops. I was going to say. Well, both in their tight taketops? Okay, great. Yeah, I really like this because Thron, we talk often about, like, how tactical he is, how deliberate he is, the way that he is able to see things differently from other people.

But he often much, and actually, like, pretty stark contrast to the way he talked about Sabine or Hera with, like, real admiration. It was just a derision in abundance for Ezra. and for the Jedi. And obviously, Ezra hinged his entire future on eliminating Thrawn at all costs. So the idea of them in some sort of like uncomfortable, forged out of necessity, however perilous and tenuous alliance is fascinating.

And like it certainly would fit just on that final note of, you know, whatever happens next. Happens to both of us. That's the idea. Like, what did that actually end up meaning and looking? like minute to minute day to day, practically over a decade-ish of time in a strange, distant galaxy with only weird Morgan whispers coming across the abyss. I can't wait to find out.

What do you think the intergalactic term for Stockholm syndrome is? We might find out next week. I hope so. Peridia? Peridia syndrome? It has to be a little. We'll think of it. We'll think about it.

Is there a synonym for syndrome that could unlock something for us? Yeah. We could just do like Star Path syndrome, you know, something like that. No, you're not feeling it. We'll workshop it. Yeah. Steve, please drop in if you think of something. Big one, boogel.

Wow. Harsh but fair. What happened to the sacred David Jacobism, no bad ideas in a brainstorm? What happened, Steve? That's what I want to know. Joanna. A Corellian complex. I don't know.

I'm just, we'll keep working on it. You're pushing us here to think about the power of a word. And this is something that you were tweeting about and observing this week on the Baylon front. And we have a number of examples to talk about across this episode and across the season, but we get a really rich one here. Balin is encouraging Morgan, not for the first time, to move with. some haste. And she asks if that's a note of fear in his voice and what is his response? Experience. Good work. Thanks. Yeah. Don't let Steve do it because he'll do it better than I did.

Steve will be perfect. I know. Mine will be okay enough. Yeah. Well, thanks. First of all, thanks for following me on Twitter. Thanks for reading my tweets. I really appreciate you. Yeah. I'm an avid consumer of all of your content, as you know. Bailen's Ray Stevenson's delivery of these one-word lines. What are some of the other ones, Mallory, that stuck out to you? Well, we got back in the double premiere

in episode two, that end note of the double opening was truth. You know, we get how inevitable here with this like despair and dismay later in the episode. There are so many so far. And there's just this like heft and weight behind them. And we don't know so much.

about his history yet, but we can feel how much is there. What do the exact details look like to be revealed to us in time? But we know that they have a hold over him to this extent still. I was rewatching some, you and I are Rome fans, so we love Ray Stevenson's work as tight as as polo. I was, I was rewatching some scenes from Blacks. Genuinely, one of my favorite performances of all time. Genuinely. And I know that is true. You said that. long before this show ever came about. We've talked about this before. Wouldn't it be so cool if Kevin McKidd were actually in this show

and we got to see the two of them together, Lucius Verinus and Titus Pullo, back together? Anyway, and I was watching some of his scenes on Black Sails where he plays Blackbeard in, I think it's like season three. I think that's right. Black Sales. And I mean, he's a mass, he's just physically massive as a person.

So there is just like something, just natural gravitas to him. But I'm just so, like, I'm just so, like, enamored, dazzled by what he's done with his character with, like, so little to work with. And the economy of his language, the economy of his movements, he's so often just still staring at fog, and it's compelling. And there is, of course, like, the meta aspect that Ray Stevenson has since passed away. this is like the last performance

I think that we're gonna I think he was shooting something else when he did pass away but I don't know if that was completed if we're gonna see it or whatever but like knowing that this is like that there is no matter what happens to this character in the next few episodes

we're not gonna get this performance of this character again and so I'm just like cherishing every second savoring it so good yeah me as well it has been just fantastic the performance is

wonderful and the character is riveting. And I do feel like even people who were maybe a little slower to feel like enthusiastic about the show overall, this was one of the earliest. Correct. Just complete agreement when this is a character I'm interested in and want to see on screen more and want to learn more about. And I think like one of the reasons that the performance is just so gripping and what he's saying has such a hold over us in such short, efficient bursts. I mean, what would his episode of House of Arby, like 17 minutes. My goodness. And it would be perfection. It would. He would say everything. He was somehow. He's managing to express something that we understand to be

like elemental and consequential about his personal circumstances in history and life. And also something broad about this like shared experience. So when he says like experience and there's that note of like this definitive looming thing, you know, it makes us think about, of course, everything that's happened with the Order and across Star Wars history and his personal experience with Order 66, et cetera, which we'll talk about and theorize about a little bit more today, but it also just has this like Battlestar-esque, all of this has happened before all of this will happen again, quality to it about the larger hands at play. Yeah, how inevitable feels like it's dipping a toe in destiny and fate, you know, sort of thing,

but also his sort of like his weariness, his like not disgusting. but just sort of just like, you know, what a waste is, you know, similarly like what he was saying before about having to, you know,

take a soak off the board. I think that, um, this goes, again, rewatching that master apprentice, um, I think it was that or maybe another,

I, I enjoy, I mainline a lot of Faloni content. Um, but when Faloni was talking about the, the reason for the coloring of the lightsabors being, ever so slightly orange, off red,

um, you know, and wanting to give us, wanting to give us something that we think we almost recognize, but it's something a little different. And I just love, I mean, similar to, I mean, how inevitable, of course, makes us think of Thanos, right? But, like, similarly to Brolin, there's just a lot of that weariness,

that shared weariness between the two of them. No one's twirling their mustache. No one is, like, you know, wah-ha-ha-hying through their performance. And it's just so, it's often so unexpected. It's just often so off of what we're, you know, and you said this from the very beginning that this idea of like all these force users we're meeting are interacting with the force in a new and slightly off-kilter kind of way. And I just think he's perfect and I love him forever.

Yeah. It's been great. And on the force point, that's one of the things I'm most intrigued by with the character because, you know, it's not like this is always the same for every, the force of depth that we've ever spent time with in Star Wars. That's not the case. But it does really stand out, like to your fate and destiny note from a moment ago, there's such a pragmatic, practical, like you're saying with the Thanos comp,

aspect to his worldview as we've, as we've glimpsed so far. And yet there is this reverence for the force and the way that he engages with it. And I think for many characters, those would feel like they were in conflict with each other. But for him, they don't so far. I think one of my favorite things about, I guess, I'm kind of getting ahead of some of my intended later points, but wouldn't be an episode of Haasovar if I didn't. But, like, he has a code. You know what I mean? And we think about the Jedi code, but like it's so interesting.

We talked about this a lot in previous pods about, you know, Thrones characters, like how often it is a character outside of a system who actually has the most rigid code, you know, a moral compass or something like that. And we may not agree with the direction that Baylon's moral compass is pointing, but, like, he knows absolutely where it is and what his word means and all this stuff. And so, like, he's a man with a code who has a disdain for. what the order and that code became or wrought. And I think that's fascinating. And the way also in which he's coded as so we really got this in this episode when both Baylon and Shin take their cloaks off and we see their costumes and they're so chivalric coated in the way that their armor sits on them.

Shin and her like Joan of Arc-esque like the Poldrons, the hair, all that sort of stuff. And then him, he's just like, he looks like Obi-Wan in his Clone Wars, you know, white army, you know, like, it's just like the shoulders and the tapered waist and the whole thing and it's just like, you know, but make it dark, but make it black, you know. He's costuming to me, like, it felt more at home in a Game of Thrones episode. Yes, yes. Than a typical Star Wars episode in a way that, like, I think, yeah, really. And, and especially to your code, enhances that because, like, that idea of building up your code all the more forcefully and fervently in the face of the institution that failed you.

You have to do what other people around you couldn't. The cloak removals in this episode were just top tier. We might need to add, like, cloak watch after wig watch, because this is just the, this was astonishing stuff across the episode. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. She was like a boxer going into the ring. She won my heart so much in this episode with like a mirror head tilt,

but I do want to like be fair and- She had your heart from the beach. beginning. I mean, that is true. You've been on a shin corner since day one. I have been on shin corner, but I like to share. And so I will say that, like, our producer, Steve Allman, a Midnight Boy himself, has also declared for House Hoddy. So, you know, we are loyal Bannerman. What's the, what's the sigil? What's on the House Crest? It's just like bangs. It's just like impeccable bangs. Title card. This is one of our favorite things to talk about in Star Wars episodes and in general

episodes of television that have titles that apply to many characters. This was a great one for this. Fallen Jedi. Baylon, who we just talked about. Anakin. Mm-hmm. Who appears at the end. Asoka, the order overall. Sabine. On and on the list goes, did you feel like this was most about any particular character or all of them in equal measure? I like the evocative nature of it applying to Baylon more than I like the literal nature of Osoka fell off a cliff. So, you know.

Less that with Asoka and more her leaving the order. But if I had to pick one, I would. I would pick Baylon, but, you know, the beauty of it is that it applies to something. Like, if you had to pick one, what would you pick? Probably Baylon as well, because it was such a Baylon-centric episode and he was such a driving force inside of it. But yeah, I think the beauty of it is the way that it fits them all. and is a tie. It's a tie that binds these characters who are opposed and who, even when they think

they're aligned, are working often at cross purposes together. And then again, they have so much in common. Have I mentioned, I love this episode of television, and I'm excited to be talking about it with you today. It's the first I'm hearing of it. Sabine and Asoka are getting ready, getting ready to head to this camp. And Sabine is putting on her Mandalorian armor. And among the, little details that like really stood out in this episode. One of my favorites was as she's checking for the ammo and her blasters and her armors on her body and she's surrounded by all of this Mandalorian iconography, the thing that is in the foreground of the shot that is drawing our eye is the cup that she couldn't move last week. And so we are thinking about this connection

and this dissonance between her Jedi training and her Mandalorian upbringing and when are they in harmony and when might they be in conflict, which of course will continue over the course of the battle sequences when she is facing shin in the woods. And we should say,

I mean, it's always fun to track the stylistic flourishes of various directors. In that battle in the woods, there's a shot where her helmet is foregrounded with like shin and, Sabine fighting in the background. And then there's like also when Baylon and Asoka are fighting,

there's like the countdown clock is foreground. Like there's just like a number of shots where like some item is foregrounded while there's action in the background. And it's just like something that Peter Ramsey and or his CP like did again and again and again. And I just, I think it's a really fun and like visually exciting way to shoot something.

It's very, honestly, very breaking bad, better calls all. when they love to shoot from a surprising angle. So, yeah. Yeah. Which pop culture masterpiece do you think more impressively deployed some sort of countdown that really made us feel the urgency inside of the experience, this episode of Asoka or Draft Day? Oh.

You know how you've never seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Oh. My God. Okay. We are watching Draft Day the next time we're together. Okay. It does not matter what else is happening. That day, even though I believe the next day we are together, we will be recording

like a four-hour podcast and then doing an event together. So I don't know if that's a practical day for Draft Day, but we're going to make it work. We're going to figure it out. Oh, my goodness. So when I say like, you pancake eating motherfucker, you just think that's like a thing I'm saying and how I talk. And you're like, yeah, that seems right. I don't want to tell you how many times I nod and smile when you're making a reference.

I don't understand. No, it's just it's only draft day and all sports ever. That's it. No, not all sports ever. You're in the splash zone. You're on the O's Bandwagon. I'm kind of into like what's happening to the U.S. Open. We can talk about that later.

Okay. Good stuff. All right. I love it. We have another clip that we want to listen to because when Sabine is struggling to find her amma for blaster, Soka comes over, helps her, and attempts to steady her. But it is not the most soothing conversation in terms of what is at the heart of it. Steve, can we hear this? Relax. Don't worry about me. I'm not. Good. Should I be? What? Worried. Nope. How much Asra means

to you? Sometimes we have to do what's right, regardless of our personal feelings. You really believe that? When the stakes are this high, I have to. That's exactly the conversation we have with Steve at the beginning of every house of our recording about eventual runtime. Sometimes we have to do what's right. Joanna. I'm distracted now in all clips by the background noise since we had our incident on the Doctor Who podcast or the latest week.

with the Minotaur wild guns. Yeah. Like the loading of guns wasn't quite as distracted in this clip, but I'm just sort of like, what are they doing?

Yeah. The huffing, puffing, moaning minotaur was just historic. That was an all-timer. Great stuff. Doesn't seem like Steve heeded your request

to incorporate that as a sound bed for every future clip. But maybe one day. What do you think we'll get first? That or... I don't want to miss a thing as a musical accompaniment for a...

Steve's never going to give us the... One day. One day. Legal is never... Let's just be clear. Legal is never

going to give us clearance on that. I'm holding that hope. I'm holding that hope. Okay. This is a rich exchange. We have a lot to talk about Joanna Robinson

first of your name. One of them is a corner you've been on since the first primer pod we did and something that we started talking about already today, but we really feel here,

which is this question of not just whether Asoka trusts Sabine, but whether she is able to trust herself, whether she is able to confidently make decisions and guide not only her own actions, but other people. So, of course, when we hear this, we're thinking about that moment

when she leaves the Jedi Order in the season five finale of Clone Wars and says to Anakin, the council didn't trust me. So how can I trust myself? But then we're also thinking almost as powerfully about like a moment, like the one between, between Osoka and Luke in the book of Boba Fat of Yadavadavit lots, where she encourages Luke, who is the one experiencing doubt.

It's a can't help it. And telling Luke, trust your instincts. When Osoka said to Hera in the season premiere of this here television program, sometimes even the right reasons have the wrong consequences, what do we do then? We have the Anakin history. We have the leaving the Jedi order history. We now have so much more,

Asoka and Sabine Clarity, including, of course, what we'll learn later in this episode from Baylon about Mandelor to factor in to what is guiding those comments. And I think it's notable that when Sabine asks her

if she really believes that, she says when the stakes are this high, I have to. which is like decidedly and intentionally not the same as her saying yes. Right? It's not, yes, this is a thing I feel deeply in my soul to be, to be like sincere. It's I have no choice. How can I try to make the right decisions or do the responsible thing unless I believe that?

We're going to talk about obviously Sabine's big choice that she makes later in this episode. But I can not wait. I think it's crucial to remember that even as Asoka is. saying these things to her, imparting these lessons. Another voice than she has in her head is the Ezra Hollow that she has no doubt watched a gajillion times where he says, as a Jedi, you have to make decisions no one else can and counting on you to see this through. That is also in her head as she's thinking this through.

And so when Asoka says, right, like sometimes we have to do what's right. regardless of our personal feelings, that's saying, like, you have to make a decision no one else can. And Ezra's saying, you have to make a decision no one else can.

He's saying something different. Yeah. There are two goals inside of all of us and inside of Sabine. It's Ezra and Asoka. I'm glad that you mentioned Ezra here because he obviously is very top of mind for the characters

at top of mind for us throughout this in our episode. But one particular thing that I, couldn't stop thinking about in both of these opening, Asoka Sabine exchanges about this looming choice, this difficult decision that they might have to make, is the history between Asoka and Ezra. Like we're talking a lot about the history between Sabine and Ezra,

but something that we chatted about on our preview pods and feels very relevant here. And we'll talk more about the World Between Worlds rapper around which some of these meaningful Asoka and Ezra moments occurred in the final season of Rebels. But like, what are some of the things that Asoka said to Ezra after their experience in the world between worlds? I owe her, this is about Marai at the time, my life.

And now I owe you that as well. She expressed a life debt to Ezra. When you get back, he said to her as they were running toward their respective gateways, come and find me. Joanna, what did Asoka say in response to that? She said I will. I promise. I will, I promise.

So how have we gotten to this point? And this is the thing is like this, this, when you call, shot called really early, this cross purposes of stop Thron versus Find Ezra. And my argument in response was that quote where I was like, but she made a promise. So it is really interesting to think about Assoca. And I think this episode throughout is challenging us to think about that light side bucket that we put Asoka in. Because in order to stop Thron, she has to break a promise to someone that she made literally as he saved her life, right? A life dead, as you put it. So many vows?

Would you say so many vows that make you swear and swear? And so I think this show, this episode, Follone's ongoing development of this character is forcing us to interrogate the inherent contradictions of being human. And, you know, I was thinking about one of your, one of your selections on the top moments pod and one of the areas of emphasis that you chose for Asoka. In terms of the thing we've always loved about her. And so the particulars here are new, right? The specifics are in the context of where we are in her timeline and this story now. But that aspect of like, we've always been drawn to Asoka in part because she's fallible, in part because she makes mistakes. And I think that question of who is actually quote unquote right or wrong. terms of what they're asking, what they decide is I would pause it more complicated than maybe

at first glance. And again, we're going to talk about that more later. But when there are these polls and you have like another thing I loved about this episode is that Baylon is the character who literally voices the idea of the greater good. But that's what's driving Osoka's logic. There we go. That's what's driving Osoka's case as well, right? The greater good. Steve, I love you. To the bottom, the souls of my feet. I think the,

I think top of mind for us is we don't understand what Baylon means when he says that. And that's something we're going to want to explore. And I think we understand what we think Asoka means. Yes. Right. Yes. We're going to talk more about what Baylon reveals

about the mandororan clan ren of it all but obviously during this personal feelings aspect of the exchange on a rewatch like this was one of the kind of

yeah almost like overwhelming jolts of rewatching the episode after first viewing and viewing this exchange here at the top of the episode really differently after what we had learned

from bailin later and we have to assume of course that it is on Osoka and Sabine's minds as well how could it not be and then we have to wonder, we're going to talk a little bit more about the idea of like attachment and some of

these patterns across time, but we have to wonder, like, was that regardless of our personal feelings logic, part of the justification Asoka made to Sabine before, like the last time? And so, of course, there is a logic and a trolley problem calculus to Asoka's position. They have face thron. They know the threat that awaits. They know what is at stake. But Asoka at the end of the day, if you strip away the logic for a second, which is hard to do when the fate of the galaxy is in the balance. But if you strip away the logic for a second,

that Mandelor backstory that we get in this episode further fuels what is already this really tragic development of Asoka asking Sabine to forgo attachment. We take this like, I go where I'm needed, not always very like entree. intriguing ominous note from the opening episode, we put some specificity around it. We think of like the parallel of something like

Asoka asking Ezra in the world between worlds and cease of war of rebels not to save Canaan and explaining that something was fixed. And then you think about the parallels, but also the distinctions between something that is not decided. Like a course you could still shape. You think of something like Boba Fett and Osoka saying to Luke, I don't control, or to Dinn,

I don't control the wants of it. others, but feeling here, like, the fate of the world depends on her doing exactly that. And then what does that mean? It means falling back into that old Jedi order cycle that she rebelled against. So, like, you know, we talked about this with the Brogu thing, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's so, it's so Doctor Who, I can't even stand it, this idea of like something's a fixed point in time until it's not or whatever.

But this other thing, going back to that Grogu, Dingerian exchange in the Jedi episode of the Mandalorian that Dave Filoni directed, which we've talked about a lot, again, I might just be because Pedro Pascal is there. But this Joel in The Last of Us comp is really like sticking to me because the problem with Joel in The Last of Us, and again, I don't think you have to have seen this to really understand what we're talking about. but a lot of people watch that show. It's not a weird comp to make. Is, like, he's so, like, unregulated around the idea of attachment. So, like, when you suppress things for a really long time, which that character in The Last of Us does because he lost something so dear to him that he shut down.

And I don't know that we've quite seen that version of Asoka, but we can understand, there's gaps in her story, and we can understand sort of, I mean, it might. explain why Rosario Dawson's depiction of her is so different from animated, the animated version that we know so well. When you repress that, when you forego attachment, when you push that away when you put walls up, then when something works itself in, you are just so wildly out of control around it.

Like, later in this episode, we see Asoka, like, lose her cool multiple times and has to do with her attachment to Sabine. She's constantly preaching this. And so her fear of training Gogo or all of that. And we've talked about this before about how the first time we watched that, we thought that was all about Anakin. And now with the information of these episodes, we're like Sabine is definitely top of mind to her as well when she does that.

Because now we know, which we didn't know before, because we're all finding this out together for the first time, even rebels and Clone Wars watchers, that she played master to the apprentice Sabine. and I think was just really unable to control herself around attachment to someone. She's so afraid of attachment is so, and in some cases, overly attached, distracted, all this or so. It's a fascinating sketch of a character and a really interesting play of someone who just, like, seems so serene and calm, but there is just absolute tumult. the surface. And this is what I'm really excited about. This is what I've been hoping for and really

potentially excited for for episode five is like, I don't, you don't cast Rosario Dawson to like walk around placidly with a, with a demure smile. You know what I mean? Like, she is a tremendous performer. And so I'm hoping that we get to see that tumult, like, crack open in episode five when we go to, you know, CGIDH Therapy Hour. I'm excited to see it. So. Maybe we're making our way toward Asoka's version of a You know, it wasn't time that did it moment I love this comp you're rocking with

I think this is a great one I mean it doesn't work out well for Joel and Ellie So I don't know if that's what we want to cling to It's dramatically compelling Who knows That Grogu moment I was going to talk about this later With like what happens with

Asoka and Shin when Shin returns to the reflex point, which obviously we'll discuss in more detail when we get to that scene. But like thinking back to the language of, you know, to the best of us that Asoka conveyed to Dinn in that moment. And like, again, we talked about like Anakin

and how that language applied to him. But there's, it's so hard not to think about that just being about Asoka when you're watching this episode. And how vulnerable all of the characters are. And I really, I think I really, I really like this choice and experimenting with this aspect of the character and her struggles. Because you take the Grogo scene and we're frustrated when we're watching that in real time.

We don't want Asoka to be bound by the same misguided logic that often drove the order that she had to leave. But at the end of the day, like she didn't know Grogo. She didn't know Dyn. And so when you see a version of that happening with characters like Sabine and Ezra, like people she loves, Sabine is probably the closest person in the world to her at this point in her story. And to apply that same like cold calculus is like, I think absolutely heartbreaking. And so when we try to say to ourselves, well, how does this character who we associate with this distinct kind of decision-making start to get caught up again in that cycle.

It's, I think what it's, I think you're exactly right. It's that the fear she's identifying is not just in them, it's in herself. And like the worry of where that will lead her and what decisions she will make. And like, and those ghosts of the past, they're just, they're everywhere here. And that's just so that projection is so, it could not be more relatable. incredibly relatable content, who among us has not put their shit on another person and been like, I'm worried about you. You got a real, Malo, you got a real sleeping habit problem.

And what are you doing up at this hour? Why are you awake? Let's talk about the attack of the overmatched assassin droids. Professor. Again, the thrill of a lifetime to have David Tennant so prominently featured in these episodes as Hu Yang. I got such a kick out of the way he kept calling help with his muffled mouthpiece covered by an attacking assassin hand. And like very placidly. Help.

Help. Help. Not like a C. Like a C. Like a C. Help me. Like, whatever.

It's just like, you know, like, and I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed that you haven't sensed through the force that I am in trouble and have come down to help me. I'm going to nick this wire to turn off the lights and alert you. I guess I have to do everything. Yeah.

But, you know, Hu Yang, I mean, our architect professor droid, eons of time spent teaching and guiding on the crucible. It helps to have four fists to work with it. Let and rip with all of his metal appendages. This was wild. Yeah. What happens, though, when Asoka and Sabine run down to come to his aid? Before everything goes to shit, before everything falls up, part before Assoca falls into the world between worlds and the map falls from Sabine's hand

into Baylens. They work together. And we get to see it. We get to see them operating in harmony. We get to see Sabine grappling a guy right into the path of Asoka's blades. We get to see them moving in unison as a team. And that is an important thing for us to actually get to watch and experience. Because, like, we build toward this really lovely line from Hu Yang at the end, this little pep talk, right? Clear eyes, full hearts. Can't lose if you stay together. May I make one request of you both?

Stay together. You always did better that way, in my opinion. And it's, like, beautiful to see them turn to each other and smile. And there's, again, like, all that history that is being called upon. And we haven't glimpsed every moment of it, but we understand what it means because of what he says there, but also because we got to see a little bit of it in action. So this is like, it feels like a literal instruction. for a fight, right?

But then it's also just like a larger, by the end of the episode, they're divided, right? So we will see how well they do apart. You can only hope they come back together again before the end of the series. I'm pretty sure they will. I'm not making any big, like, hair is not going to be in the rest of the show predictions.

But we got an interesting email, I thought, from... Will you say when you think Cobbantth will return? I shan't. Remember when you promised me? Okay, anyway. vividly. Talk about a man. Number two,

Asoka promising Ezra. That's number two on the list of promises that I promise you. I'm fulfilled in our universe. Mallory said, I saved Mallory's life. And she said, I promise you,

Cobbantle in return. Anyway, Jay, uh, wrote in, uh, to say, I was up this early,

up early this morning thinking about Asoka. I actually got several emails that started. I was up early this morning thinking about Asoka. So, Glad everyone else. This episode, it got its moving closets to people. Teeth in us.

All right. Thinking about Asoka and how Dave Faloni isn't afraid to break Star Wars stereotypes about the Force with his characters. Asoka broke ground

by being a master of the Force but not a Jedi and also when she forced her white blades, but could she take it even further? What if the next chapter and force use involves combining powers?

There is precedent for it. According to some Redditors, not me. I know nothing. I've ripped all of the following info from their comments. So far in canon, force,

capital F, force, capital C, cooperation is usually done by the Sith. But in some episode of the Clone Wars that I did not watch, Anakin, Yoda and Asoka combined powers to find some children. Pause, clarification from us. I believe she's thinking about when like Mace and Yoda and O'Don are like meditating to find some kid. It's not quite the same, but again, Janie already prefaced her credentials here. so I'm not mad about it. They can pretty much do whatever they want with this concept since there are no established

rules on how and when it works. There could be a cool moment where Sabine channels Osoka's abilities and is thus able to use the force that way. Or maybe she has to work through her issues first and figure out what's blocking her force powers to have at least some access to the force. But even then I imagine she'd still be pretty weak in her abilities. So how cool would it be if in some climactic moment Osok is fighting Morgan on her own and is starting to lose when Sabine steps in and they combine force powers and defeat her?

Like when the Guardians of the Galaxy joined hands to wield the power stone in the MCU, I know, don't worry, I'm not that bad. Tell me what that wouldn't make for some epic cinema. I realize this is more of a fan fake idea that a theory, but you get it, right? And so I, Joanna Robinson, a great email for Jane. I really loved it. Comedy gold, top to bottom. Was looking up, like, force melding is a concept from, like, the legendary. I'm like the old legends that have been decanonized, but it was brought back recently in the new High Republic. stories that they've been telling

and High Republic canon has a character who can draw the Jedi together and what was called a force meld where they combine their power in order to accomplish fees that are beyond any one Jedi. So, I mean, we're not being promised this,

but I, you know, I just do think, you know, it would be cool if Huyang's like, stay together. You always work better that way. And if, like, that is something to do with unlocking force powers. And again, this is a Sith practice. It's an ancient

Jedi practice. It is a Dane, according to the legends. Ancient Jedi practice. Dangerous, risky Jedi practice. Something of the Sith do. But it is something that I could see, you know, a rebel, like Asoka or Azra or Sabine, trying to figure out how to do. Or Balin.

But that would be more like, it's a little sithy, so you can kind of see him doing something a little sithy. But what if our like, lightsiders do something that's like a little sithy like that? A lot of potent disdain for Anakin Skywalker turned Darth Vader. True. Lord of the Sith from Baylon in this episode, which I thought was fascinating. Very, very true.

Just a pantheon email. Start to finish, incredible. Really good. That's not even all of it. But it was great. Intriguing. I like it. Our palbin?

Lindelberg, who we have yet to mention, will be joining us later today, of course. We'll find him in the world between worlds. Yeah, we will. We will indeed. What will be ailing him then, who can say? Ben has been just powering through, a content machine, despite, despite ailing for weeks on end. He's a marvel to behold. And part of what he did while he was not feeling well was write a wonderful piece for

the ringer.com on a great website about how Asoka is changing. our understanding of the force, like, already. And so whatever the, like, specific next version of that is and whether it might be this or something else, I like more broadly that idea of just, like, felonies not just interest in, but I think, like, active commitment to. Right.

When we've talked about that before, playing in that sandbox. With the mortis gods, with Bendu, like, he's constantly trying to add to and complicate our understanding of the force. And so this idea of going to this other galaxy, who knows how the force works there? I'm excited to find out.

I mean, we know there's some witchcraft. We know there are mysterious voices in our subtitle. All right. I'm sure everything's going to be fine. Nothing dangerous is awaiting on the other side. Who, like, who's ever had a bad time following a mysterious voice through a portal in time and space? No one. Well, the eye of cyan is going to make a journey at the end of this episode, but we have a few other,

a few other ships to talk about first. It's time to say goodbye to Home 1 and hello to the ghost. Get your Legos ready, folks. Pera, Chopper, and Jason are piecing out. I would like to just spend 10 seconds on the comedy of the like, but we have a staff meeting. Attempt to keep her there. You figure it out.

So funny. So funny. I got such a kick out of that. I was just really chuckling. Seeing the ghost in live action as more than just a little quick, you know, glimpse Easter egg in Rise of Skywalker. A great film, a movie that we somehow mentioned on every single podcast. Why?

This was such a treat, such a joy. And it's not just the ghost. It's not just hair on Chop and Jop and Jason. got a handful of fighters accompanying her for the journey, including our guy. He's yet to fail us, Carson Tava, here in the thick of it. And this is where I will violate one of our new House of Horror roles and very briefly ask a question about the timeline. Taken out of the Constitution.

The Constitution is an amendment to the amendment. I'm not hung up on it. I'm not harping on it. Yeah. Just throwing it out there. You're really chill about it. Just throwing it out there if you don't like you can throw right back. The old anchor man.

So breezy. I definitely didn't send Lindbergh like 50 slacks about this at 4 a.m. It did not happen. No. I'm going to very quickly violate our new let's not ask too many questions about the timeline and where we are in the chronology rule to note that our guy Carson says in season three of Mando to Tuttle, there's something dangerous happening out there. All these events.

It's not a coincidence. And by the time it becomes big enough for you to act, it'll be too late. But notably, it does not say. And I know because I was there when the seven hyperdrive power, hyperspace ring, I of Scion, behemoth, sent a massive electric pulse that sent a bunch of our ships ricocheting into each other on their quest to go find thron. Didn't mention any of that, which would seem to indicate that that had not yet happened. And maybe that's just, you know, who knows.

But one more data point that this has taken place after Mando Season 3. Carson tells Hera in this really, like, cheerful and admiring way that she's risking a lot. He wasn't, are you sure you want to do this? It's like, you fucking rule. Look at you. Click a no on that Google calendar. And what is her reply? Once a rebel, always a rebel.

This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel. Exactly. Do you think Hara put up a little... Did she put up a little palm tree on her slack? Yeah. Yeah. Changed the Slack avatar.

Yeah. On vacation. Gone to scare it. Yeah, but the chopper probably, like, fucked with her settings just for the sport of it, you know? Oh, la. Yeah. Yeah. Herra.

Our guy. love chop. I, on the one hand, this is kind of like just the most quintessential Star Wars line you can get. And on the other hand, I was really glad we got it with Hara in this kind of context. Because, you know, Hera among the ghost crew, the Spectors was like always the most, I guess, quote unquote, responsible adult, right? Like when they sync up with Phoenix Squadron, for a long time, Canaan doesn't want to do that. He wants them to remain on their own. And she's often the one in the like formal position of leadership or power.

She's the one who's sort of existing in multiple roles at once as the leader of the specters and this family and this crew and this rebel cell, but also working in some sort of more like official capacity. But she's always been a rebel well before the specters formed up and took their call signs. Like you think to her appearances in the Bad Batch, for example, and we get to see her. It's really fun to see her as a child. on Rilov and see the way she was navigating her relationship with her father and her family then. Yeah. Exactly. Spying on the empire against her father's wishes, hailing Omega and the bad batch to come assist when things got out of hand.

When we hear like on your Signal Phoenix leader and we get to think of what that language means and what it what it evokes for us, it's just this really nice little tidy way to, you know, like we talked about a lot in the first episode. connect to something really meaningful for people who have spent time with those stories, but also, like, if you haven't, you learn something here about Harris spirit that is, like, essential to understand. Back to the Henge. I love that you keep saying Hinge. Throws me. I just got a kick out of, I've been calling it Reflex Point pretty consistently, and I got a kick out of the use of the word Henge in this episode because it just does look so much like Stonehenge. And so I'm rocking with Henge now. I love it. I'm rocking with it. Although I did go with Reflex Point when I sang my amended version of Devletown to you earlier. I don't know if you remember. I do. I will always remember when I was the doctor when you saying that to me. Okay. See, now I understand that reference. I don't know. I'm like cats. And someday I will. I understand that reference. Someday I will get your draft day references. Everything I know about draft day I learned from my friend Griffin Newman, who is in draft day as an intern. You know the Griff's in that movie, right?

Fantastic. I mean, group viewing party. Just name the time. Name the time. You pancake eating motherfucker. Oh, boy. It's just like, I'm really excited to watch draft date with you a movie that you'll definitely hate. I love it. I like sports movies. It's not. It's just a, it's a, the movie is deranged.

I have such a fun. But you know I share your love of Costner sports movies especially. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Let's go back to the hinge. Back at the hinge. Yeah.

We're talking coordinates. We're talking guideline. We're talking risk. Missed by an inch, Bailen Warnes. And quote, we will be lost to the depths of the void. When I hear a thing like that, I assume that that is going to happen to somebody at some point in this television program. The question is who, the question is when. And the question is if that does happen to somebody at some point, is that where they will meet the cast of impending Star Wars program?

Is that where Jude Law is in a dashing coat? If so, send me to the depths of the void. I just can't wait. Can't wait to spend eight episodes with Jude Law and his scarf and outerwear in the void. It's very... It's very hoot. All right. It is.

You're right. It is. It is. I wonder if he'll pop on some converse at any point. Sanchez. Some chucks. Sanchez. We're going to talk about this in Theory Corner.

Maybe we won't if we skip Theory Corner because the pod is six hours by them. So I'll just quickly mention here. And Marikas literally smoke. I, as I assume many are, I am bracing for a pergolated jump for our pals next week. Yes. I see what you just said pergill-aided, A-I-D-D, but I heard like pergillated like A-I-D-D, but I heard like pergillated like A-T-E-A-2. Our guy Jason at the end of this episode, he's talking about how he's got a bad feeling.

The force is active. Maybe he'll tap into some animal bond powers. Maybe Groger will show up. Ben suggested that in his column this week, and I, like, almost lost my mind. Oh, my God. What if that's why they're putting it in movie theaters? That language from Baylon lost to the depths of the void,

all of the stuff with the maps, the pathway to Peridio, what is awaiting, what is unknown. It did make me, like, it made me think of something that's central

in the Timothy's on Thron novels, which I won't linger on for long, but it popped up and I'm wondering if we're going to see something like this in the show at some point.

The, Vader actually does this at a certain point in the story, but this is something that we learn about the chis, Thron's people, that they use the quote, navigators who are like force sensitives

to guide their spacecrafts, right? And I'm wondering if like we will see we've been talking a lot about the Pergel assist, but what if one of our characters taps into the force to try to guide the course to come and maybe the, maybe that shared power that you were wondering about earlier

could come into play there too. It seems like we're going to get some new, some new lore. Yeah. In the live action verse. New lore is coming. Here, for sure. Joanna, talk to me about faith.

Right. So Morgan says have faith. And our guy, Baylon, says, Faith. I lost that a long time ago. And... Amazing line. I think it's interesting to track Baylon when he talks about faith,

fairy tales, witchcraft. Like, he reminds me of, like, a, like, Hitchens-esque atheist. where he's like, please do not bring me your witchcraft, your fairy tales, your talk of faith, I'm not about it. I use the force, but I'm not about

this mumbo-jumbo. We got an email from Dan. Take note. This is precisely the kind of email I will always read. Dan is talking about bail and skull and shin hottie. House hottie.

And Dan says, the name themselves carry meaning that's worth mentioning, Skull, balan skull, Skull means to mock, which fits a fallen Jedi who seems dismissive of his former faith. Hattie means to hate. And she certainly has a more fiery,

rageful energy than her master. The question remains, what fuels that rage? Hopefully the show will provide an answer. I love that. I love diving into a name meaning. Skoll and Hattie. The law offices of Skoll and Hottie.

House Hottie. It's possible, right? The Balin's goal is talking about 466, Followed the Jedi. But, like, we don't know when he took his turn to, you know, being a goth with an orange light saber, right? Like, Huyang said before, he disappeared at the end of the Clone Wars,

like so many Jedi. So is this or, you know, did this happen after Order 66 in the way that we have seen again and again and again, again, we find out exactly how many Jedi survived Order 66 and took a, did it happen before? What is his lack of faith in the order just much more closely aligned with Assocas where Asoka walked away from the order, lost faith in the order because of the inherent politicking that was going on at the time. We don't know the answer to that. We're really hoping that we find out while Ray Stevenson is still here to tell us, you know, a monologue, you know, briefly at us. But, you know, it's intriguing. It really is. And again, those parallels between Asoka and Baylon are just, like, so delicious.

They are. I'm just, I'm so eager to learn more, but also, like, really content to, like, the way that this has been, the way that these glimpses of who Baylon is and what he believes have been parceled out of and it just felt really perfectly calibrated to this point. We had a lot of fun talking about that utterance of fairy tales

during the double premiere and that like vague fractured hope language. Like he talks about these things like it's an impossibility to put childish. And exactly like it is a thing that he has grown out of and moved and graduated beyond,

but perhaps not by choice, right? Like, when he was a Padawan, he believed, something like that, you know? Right, right. It's not faith. I never had it. I never understood people who did. It's I lost that a long time ago.

And I think that connects nicely to what you were saying at the beginning of the pod about like, losing faith is not exactly the same as losing a person, but the way that loss in its many forms lingers with these characters and helps to guide and shape the course that they take. It's so interesting. And it's really interesting that, like, earlier when Shin Hadi, House Hattie was asking, what does Maure mean by, like, threads, you know, what threads are she spinning or whatever?

And he says, it's not witchcraft. It's something that he said to her earlier. And then here he goes, witchcraft, you know? I wanted to ask you about this, actually. Like, how did you read? there are a couple fascinating moments on that front in this episode because later when Maruk dies in a puff of hissing smoke and Shin looks so shocked, we're like, is it because she can't believe that he was bested? She can't believe that he lost and that he's dead or because

she's like, wait, what the fuck is happening? What is going on here? Because her knowledge of Morgan's Dathamarian Knight's sister history is very recent. Like, what? What level of awareness do Baylon and Shin have about how the witchcraft is being deployed? Like, it feels like we're being – there's the question of, I think, Baylon's worldview, and whether he's saying the word witchcraft with, like, trepidation or judgment. It seems like that. You know what I mean? And it almost seems to me as well that Morgan is aware of that because when he asked her if she's a witch, she said she's a survivor.

Right. You know what I mean? So it's almost like, don't break up witchcraft in front of this guy. Like, he's not going to help you if you say that. So I don't know. That's interesting to me. And like, Shin's reaction. Yeah.

There's so many different ways you could read that. Yeah. Because there's a reading that it's just sort of like, oh, shit, it's two on one now. I'm fucked, right? Yeah. But to me, it read bigger than that and deeper than that. I think so, too. And it read surprise to me.

Like, I did not know that it was just three piles of smoke on a, other's shoulders underneath that guy's armor, you know? And so... And what else might, what else might I not understand that? What else is made of smoke? Who else is this? Smoke puppet? Is this cake?com? Is it smoke? I don't know. A great mask. I like that. I like that to... The two things I find really, a few things, but a couple that I find really interesting about that. I feel like we're, we talked about this a little bit a couple pods ago, like with the mysterious voices thing and whether Morgan is being dup, and something is waiting on the other end of the pathway to Pridio,

whether they are opening the door to like the dweller in darkness or the beast from Doctor Who, like something that is waiting and needs a way in and whether this might be a really grave error that they come to regret. And whether Baylon and Shin might be in for some sort of unpleasant reckoning because of the bedfellows that they've made here. But like, and then, but on that point of this alliance, I think it's fascinating to think back to like our introduction to Baylon. You know, and that like, oh, you came through. Yeah, I'm well paid for it. And us thinking about him as a mercenary initially and then seeing that he is moved by a loki-esque, glorious purpose. I mean, he has a mission here.

And we get to hear him talk about it more today. And so he's, in theory, taking orders from Morgan and working for her and operating at her behest. But where is the limit there? And when will we reach it? I mean, this seems like, it seems like, because we talked about the way in which Shin and Baylon are, like, in lockstep. There's like a tiny splinter in that towards the end of the episode. How are you feeling about your father-daughter theory? Are you?

Kind of good. Yeah. Yeah. Not bad. I felt like, I felt that more in this episode than I had before, just the way that they're, the looks, the commands. I'm not putting any money on it, but I don't feel bad. I've seen nothing yet to dissuade me, you know? But so like a tiny splinter there where she's like, why won't you let me choke this woman to death?

And he's like, sorry. I'm going to promise. Dad, why won't you let me force jokes a plane with her? Whereas I think, but I think the much shakier alliance is Morgan and Baylon and Shin. Like that seems destined to explode. So we'll see. Explode. Perfect segue.

Let's talk about Maruck. It's time for a battle. You mean a Cana Jaris? You mean as for Bridger? Me, Star Killing? We're going to have a little eulogy here for Theory Corner. What a journey it was over the last couple weeks. My friend in yours is Alan Zepamol, who like, who loves me but hates my fondness for theorizing,

texting me, he's like, how did you feel when Muruk, you know, dissolved in smoke? And I was like, oh, I laughed. And he's like, oh, good, good. It was like, yeah, I mean, we, from the beginning. The motto of House Hoddy is hold your theory. Hold it loosely. Wow, I love that I'm now, yeah, I'm now a member of House Hoddy. Love that for me.

Of course you are a founding member. Hold it very loosely, always. And even by like, because it's hard to grip things tightly in an empty glove that's just a reanimated Cacheous smoke corpse. The smoky meat puppet. Spin in a blade. If I were naming this episode, Taskmaster style, I would name it Smokey Beapuppet. I think that, yeah, even by last week, you and I were thinking of canceling Theory Corner because it had gotten two bananas too quickly.

And I was just like, I can't hang with this for several more weeks. And I'm so glad that it's smoke in the wind. I just love that fun on the internet. This was wild. This was a wild line. Delightful. Just great stuff. We're going to talk about these duels quickly in clusters.

This is where our pals are just racing through the woods and shin in the broker's waiting. Okay, but in hilarious, like, this was shot in the volume style. The camera follows them racing the woods for like five steps and then like tilts up so that we can't tell that they're about to hit a wall because that's up for the volume. Like Wiley Coyote heading straight for a wall. Incredible. I think I liked all the dueling in this episode. Yeah. And again, we talked about this before with like the Jedi episode when Morgan and Asoka are dueling on a bridge in that episode.

They're getting smarter and smarter about how to use the volume in ways that like where they put up. So the Henge itself creates a natural boundary that they are sort of like bouncing off of. so it doesn't feel like, why are they in this, like, weird-constructed space? The clearing around the ghost, in between trees, like, you're creating, in a filmmaking sense, you're creating these natural little pockets of space that they have to move through in a constricted way. So we're not like, why with all the space in the world are Obi-1, Kenobi and Darth Vader finding him this weird little shuffling away? So I think, to me, it looked good, but, you know, I'm not an expert on. Yeah, you need to have a space.

small enough that we believe Shin could have vanished behind a puff of smoke. literal puff of smoke and a different puff of smoke to be clear. So funny. Roy leaked out. That was, I was cracking up. I was, I was texting

Ben Lindberg about this sequence and he made that like Batman joke. He's like, she disappeared behind a Batman Puffa Spoke. And then I've seen a lot of our pals who do great breakdown videos of like used footage from the Tim Burton, Michael Keem, Batman, but with so weird, Mallory, I had just watched that scene in preparation for our Goop podcast

that we did on Trial by Conta this week because the Joker goes into a Vat of Goop in that same scene. So I was like, I literally just watched Michael Keen do this. Like, this exact same move is incredible. I compared it to Job, Bluth, from Arrested Development, and I just like to imagine that the next exchange was, I don't have time for your tricks.

You don't have time for my illusions, Sabine. You don't have time for my illusions. That's my new head canon. The other thing like at the dawn of the dole here that stood out, and I think especially on a rewatch, is the beats across the episode where Sabine and Asoka move first. Now they are compelled to. They are provoked actively. but Sabine is the first to fire here.

Osoka will draw and activate her lightsaber before Baylon does, and Sabine places the star map in Baylon's hand. He doesn't take it for her. They are the ones taking that first move, making that first step. The helmet that you noted is resting in the foreground and in a later shot. It comes off here when Chin knocks Sabine into a tree

that she then fells. And I just have a lot of health and safety Procalled notes for Sabine on the helmet front of her. Oh, the security for her helmet? Where's the strap? Is your question? Yeah. We got to work on this. Yeah. Well, I'm, for when I'm thrilled. Because you know the medallorian helmet is my enemy. Right. You want to see the purple hair in action. Yeah, and I want to see Pedro Pescal and I want to see Katie Sackoff always and stuff like that.

So, like, get those metalorean helmets out of there. So I am thrilled. Did you enjoy the somersault from the helmet to the lights? Saber? Activation? Obviously. Wonderful. But most importantly, that fucking helmet is not coming to Peridia. No one picked it up. No one picked it up.

What will we see first? The helmet? Or the loft cat? Well, we can start a helmet count. I mean, I guess it's a possibility that like Asoka or Huying or someone picks up the helmet and takes it with them. And then when they see her in Puritia, they're like, we brought you your home. helmet, you know, but I would like it to just stay there. It can stay on Citos. Oh, you're the best. Okay. Let's talk about Maruk. I have to say, I am a sucker for the

least successful move in Star Wars history, which is the spinning Inquisitor Blade. I just think it looks so cool every time, though, it is an absolute, like, instant death sentence. Literally never worked, yeah. Mesmerizing, like the cropping of the close shot in live action, it was just utterly hypnotic. I thought it looked great. In the sound design. Yeah. I loved after a couple,

a couple bits of sparring, Asoka's patience as she stepped back and waited and let Maruk make an ass out of himself, flexing and flaunting. And then she just issued that, like what I think we have ample evidence at this point to say is a feloni go-to, which is the one-stroke kill.

This is how we saw Asoka Kill the Inquisitor in one of the Tales of the Jedi shorts that we talked about, the sixth installment of that season. This is, of course, we did say, we did say spoilers for all of Star Wars. This is, of course, famously how Obi-on kills Mall. We have all of this build-up in anticipation. When your animated boyfriend killed my animated boyfriend, you mean? Exactly. Do all of the fates indeed, my goodness. It's over so quickly.

And there's a party that's like, how could it be? a part of you that's like this is just perfect, you know, this is the perfect way for this to go. That one fatal, patient, decisive stroke. Green smoke comes out, hissing and a screaming, right? Yes. And you as an enthusiast on the Magic front, loved it? Oh, I adore it. But here's the question.

So this is telltale night sister Magic. The green color coding. K. It is. Yeah. We've seen it before. Yes. In animation.

However, I do have a question from longtime listener, first time caller, my palineers, Dave Gonzalez, was asking, what is the implication? Okay, so this is a reanimated corpse in a smoke. But we see him use the force when he calls his blade back to him, right? So what is the implication? Is it a reanimated force? user and so this suit of smoke can use the force or do all smoke stacks smoke meat puppets?

Are they, is it just a trickery? It's not the force. It's just like magic trickery or like, you know, question mark. Okay. I think this is a really good question. I don't think we know even after our hilarious farewell with Muruk exactly what we've been watching because I think it's possible. certainly possible that it is a reanimated corpse

because we have seen we have seen the Knights' Sisters animate an army of the dead to face Duku in Clone Wars. But we've also seen Mother Talzin use Night Sister magic on the living to amplify their power.

You're talking about my boyfriend's brother? Your boyfriend's brother, Savagra Press. Correct. Exactly. Exactly. So it could be that. we also saw, we mentioned, we referenced this earlier, but Sabine is like possessed by the

Knight's sister spirits and rebels. So this is across rebels and Clone Wars. There's some Nicester magic and Jedi Fallen Order as well. So we've gotten a lot of different glimpses of this. It could be the Army of the Dead corpse reanimation. I think your force question would be

very top of mind then, but I think this could also be like a, again, the former inquisitor who had, was a force sensitive and a force wielder and was like boosted as a weapon for Morgan's cause and then died with one stroke to the chest and a gaseous plume in the volume. Tough way to go. Brutal.

Brutal. Last spin around Theory Corner? It was Mall. Okay, moving on. Moving on. It wasn't mall. I don't think it was mall. No one thinks it's mall except some worm-braided people in the internet.

It's fine. Listen, I get it. I also would love to see Mall again. I mean, I really support you and your dreams. I really do. I love this for you. I love this for you. Here's a really important question I asked for you.

What did Huying just say to Sabine and Asoka? Thanks for bringing this up. Yeah. He encouraged them to stay together. He told them that they were always at their best when they were together. What do they do instead of the two of them, like, easily taking my beloved house haughty off the board? I don't want it to happen. You should be grateful.

But they could have. You should be grateful. Easy. House hottie lives and thrives. Easy. Sabine screams to Asoka. Go. Get the map.

I've got this. And Asoka does. Now, I want to say, because there are a lot of decisions that our characters make in this episode that are worth assessing and critiquing. a lot of them. This is another one I think that's actually kind of a fascinating brew because I do think on on the one hand, the fact that Asoka does, does this, leaves, is a sign of trust and belief that Sabine can handle it. Like, Shin stabbed Sabine through the fucking gut three episodes ago. And she's like, I believe that you can win. So that's cool. But The fellowship just separated.

Also, if they weren't supposed to. If Asoka was like, I literally don't have a second despair to take this bad bitch off the board, I would kind of believe it. But by the way, Asoka like stops in the forest to just kind of gaze up for a little bit. It's a beautiful view. It's a lot to take in. I shit you not kind of walks up to the hedge. She's not dashing up to the hedge. So I'm like, you definitely had time. It's a stroll.

It's a stroll. Anyway, sure. She had faith in her apprentice, and that's what we wanted. Well, Shin said you will regret this decision. Did you feel it in your fingers and toes? I actually did. I thought it was incredible. When she made icy eye contact with you through the screen.

So good. She reads her own hype, and I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I love a shit talker. I absolutely love a shit talker. Ben had a great observation in his column this week about the Jedi Endor-esque weaving between three settings, nature of the ensuing stretch of the episode. We're cutting in and out of a lot of scenes, but we're going to just like wrap the Sabine Shin part of this year and then talk about all of the Baylon Asoka moments in sequence rather than weaving in and out. this is where we get that helmet foreground shot, Joe. And again, it puts the Mandalorian, Jedi, both, neither, one more than the other, question top of mind,

and primes us for this little version of our expectations when Shin, who is, once again, like, handling speed with ease, knocks her down, and says, reaches up with her hand. Yeah. And says, you have no power here. You have no power over me. Yeah.

Power. And it is like gloating. It is mocking. But also like delicious to her. She's just relishing it. Yeah. Exactly. You are, we think we're rivals.

Like, you don't have what I have. And the way that when Sabine lifted her hand, shin flinched. Like, flinches and freaks. and freezes because she is sure that the character who couldn't move a cup last week, as we know, is about to use the force to attack her. I just, like, I loved that that's not what happened because Sabine fires a wrist rocket, and she's tapping into her Mandalorian roots.

Like, we think about when she received from Fenraal, the Vambraces during the trials of the Dark Sabre training and all of the different moments across the canon where we're reminded of the ways that Mandalorian might and strength and weaponry and tech so often evolved and developed in direct response to battling the Jedi, to battling a force user, and to see Sabine, like, tap into that aspect. We've been talking a lot about the different parts of who she is and who she might become and who she wants to be, and for all of those to be at play in this moment. I like, we've, we've chatted so much for our preview pods through the in-season pods about

Sabine ran force user question mark. where we are with it and where the show is with it. And I think this level of restraint from Faloni is like really admirable. I just love this. Like playing with us like this and not having her wield the force is amazing. What Asoka said to her last week when they were training, she says, your skill with a weapon comes for a Mandalorian upbringing. Those skill alone will not be enough to defeat our capital E enemy. But this idea of you have no power.

And it's being like, correction. Point of order. I do have power. There is not one definition of power. I got Mando power. And hopefully eventually I will be able to move a cup. Stay tuned. Fantastic.

And then she throws the smoke bomb and disappears. Remarkable. She's the best. Let's talk about the face off of the fallen Jedi. Smoky Meat Puppet is still the name of the episode, but that's a pretty good one. Joanna, you mentioned. to Soka's steady walk

into this constellation dome. I mean, on the plus, I was being critical. Now, to be positive, I can say,

she didn't go barreling in. She went in assessing all of her exits. One of them's over a cliff. That's the one she wanted to take it. Into the world between worlds. I think Baylon's activity and behavior

is just as notable because he, is sitting quietly, waiting, and doesn't even turn as he begins to address her. Because as he said at the end of episode two, after closing his eyes and breathing deeply and tapping into the force, her presence in the force is elusive. Yet her determination is vivid. She is coming. And here she is, just as he knew she would be. he goes immediately for the kill shot.

Steve, can we hear this? Anakin spoke highly of you. Interesting. He never mentioned you. I got it. Everyone in the order knew Anakin Skywalker. Few would live to see what he became. Surely that must leave a mark.

Is that why you walked away, abandoned him? I'm not here. to discuss my past. The only reason I'm here is to secure the future. For you? Something far greater. Ambitious. Necessary.

And you find starting another war? Necessary. I'm not starting a war. But thrall will. It is an unfortunate evil but speaks to a greater truth. One must destroy in order to in order to create. Instant, classic Star Wars conversation and scene.

This is so good. The thrum, the audio thrum in the background was like making me very tense. And I think what we're discovering as we listen to these exchanges is like, and I know this has been like a critique of the show, but I actually just really am like devouring the way that he's just taking his time. I feel the same way. Not only the pace of the speaking and the exchange, but when they're about to circle each other for a minute. And there's a methodical quality to the way that they are studying each other. But it calls back, I think, to that word Baylon used earlier in the episode,

experience. Like you can feel their mutual calm, which will bubble to rage. For both of them over the course of this duel. They lose control, yeah. Both of them. Because of their apprenticeses. Exactly. And so they are both in this position of,

I'm sizing you up. I'm the one in control. This is going to go the way that I want. And then things happen that pull them both out of that forced, carefully curated repose. I want to talk. I want to do my favorite thing and your least favorite, which is where we're more than two hours into a pod,

and I say, let's talk about every single word. word than is uttered in a conversation. I love this. Let's explicate, baby. Let's do it. Okay. Anakin spoke highly of you. Interesting.

He never mentioned you. We both immediately went to the same place, which is this is just Ossoco went full Don Draper Ginsburg. I don't think about you at all. I think about you at all here, which is just iconic and hysterical. And I really appreciated the levity inside of a very fraught and intense exchange. This is so good. Are you picturing them when you replay the scene in your mind in an elevator for that moment?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The bailin looks really good in the like checked jacket that Ginsburg's wearing. Everyone in the order knew Anakin Skywalker. You would live to see what he became. Part of what made this so great to see this is when he's standing. the facial expression,

the glance to the side, the cloaks are coming off. Charles made a really great point on Midnight Boys about the deftness of this line and what it establishes. First of all, it's just putting Anakin top of mind

for us before he returns to the episode, right? Important. Reenforcing everybody who's watching Star Wars knows who Anakin Skywalker is and knows that he's the chosen one and famous

and all this stuff. But to reinforce so succinctly, the Asoka's stature and the mythology and legend around Asoka as an extension is important. Like, people know who she is.

People know about their relationship. And Balin has an uncommon level of awareness well beyond that. So it gives us all of that at once because one of our great lore segments with Limburg back in the day,

many moons and pods ago was about, I literally cannot remember which podcast it was on. It was obviously on a Star Wars podcast. And I think it was Obi-1, an Obi-1 episode. Yes. How few people knew that Anakin became Vader. Right. And so, Baylon having that awareness is really notable.

And this question of, like, how he knows so much, you know, we saw when he kind of connected into the force in the double premiere before saying that thing about Asoka, when he's facing off with Sabine later and he closes his eyes and takes this deep breath before saying what he says about her family and Mandelor. Like, is he learning all of these things through the force? Or is there some other way that he is accessing this information? Right. We got a great email from Monica who asked, how does Bailen know all the hot goss, Jedi Mind Trickery, a web of sources slash spies throughout the galaxy, annual subscription to the Galactic Inquirer? I think I love it too I think exactly what you mentioned

Because if you go back in Trace Love the idea of him being like Varus I know I was like I almost said what do you call into galactic little birds Little Mori I don't know anyway Cod Wars We've seen him as you said multiple times

Sort of just like close his eyes and try to commune And if you trace back to the beginning One of the very first things that happens is Morgan mentions Assocato to him. So like Assocato is someone that he already knew but then very soon thereafter, not right then,

but very soon thereafter, he tells House Hoddy to go to Lafal and he's like, that's what she's she's where, you know, her apprentices. And at the time, remember, we were like, how does he know? But like, yeah, I think he just like has a file cabinet

of the worldwide web is in his head and he can search it at force.com. Ask Jeeves. Ask the force.com, right? And this is how he knows. So, but, but, like, does he read Sabine later? Yes. But also he's had time to research Sabine.

Yeah. You know, he knew that Asoka, vivid. I love that word. Vivid. Sabine is on the list, too. gather all the data and just like palpy the shit out of her. You know what I mean? Like you need to know their weaknesses if you're going to manipulate them.

And like he, again, he might not be like twirling a mustache and evil, but like he knows this is, this is, I have you had time to think about what your specialty force power would be? Is this what yours would be? Reading people's minds, knowing their, their history in their lives. Pulling up like a full psych profile on someone. and knowing exactly what the tenderest points to push would be? I think I would be afraid to have this power. I think, like, I don't want to know everything about everyone because then how can you move forward with your life?

Maybe you just, like, walk around all tall and be like, faith, I lost that a long time ago. Witchcraft, fairy tales. What do you speak of the way he spoke about? Anacons fall here. Like a few would live to see what he became and the facial expression and that like judgment, holding him in judgment. As you already said, it's so instructive to us in terms of like what he thinks of the Sith,

of Dark Side. Like, you know, like what he would become. Right. A monster. And so it's like he's not like, let's bring back Palpatine somehow. Right. That's not what on Baylon's agenda, right? Right.

And how much of that is about what the Sith are and do and represent. present and how much of it is about Anakin as a figure of promise, promise and prominence for the Jedi who failed in that responsibility and what that might be connected to in terms of his lament about the state of the order, which is interesting to think about. Surely that must leave a mark. Is that why you walked away? Ooh, abandoned him. I mean, this is like the ultimate trigger for Osokitano.

know, we know, and this is important in this context to reiterate, that Bayland does not relish the idea of killing Asoka. You've been citing the use of the word anime. He's not thinking of it that way. To kill her will be a shame, he said in episode two. There are so few Jedi left. This is a lament to him. And yet, he knows what is necessary in order. to win in order to take that next step for his quest for power and destroying in order to create. From Asoka's perspective, I mean, what does this make you think of? This pops into mind so many of the great scenes and moments, a lot of which we talk about in our primer pods, difficult not to think about shroud of darkness from Revel season two when we get

the vision of Anakin in the Jedi temple that morphs into Vader. why did you leave? Where were you when I needed you? And Asoka saying, I made a choice I couldn't stay. You were selfish. You were selfish. This is her own, you know, anxiety. Her own.

Right. Subconscious telling her, I think you know that Anakin is Vader. She's like, not yet, not ready. Not ready to know that yet. And he's like, you abandon me. You failed me? And then he says, So brutal.

Do you know what I've become? Which echoes what Baylon says here. Few would live to see what he became, right? Do you know what I've become? Sounds exactly like Vader. And Asoka's like, oh, what a crazy weird coincidence. Surely my master has not become Vader.

He's just asthmatic. I'm just like now. He's like a puff of the old albuterol. Until Twilight of the Apprentice. Right. When she has to stare at the truth in the world, face and cannot deny it any longer and hears him through the fractured mask say her name and what does she say what does she call out to him anikin i won't leave you not this time like this guilt that she has

is this defining central thing in her life even to the point where when we start this season and she's talking to hera she says i walked away from him and the jedi just like i walked away from sabine And she's saying this out loud, but it's still a manifestation of her subconscious and the things she thinks about herself. Like, I am a person who leaves. And how do you hold that in tandem with all of the stuff we've talked about before about Asoka as this fiercely loyal, devoted friend? Like, these contradictions are just so compelling. And it's so smart to have Baylon here, presumably the week before, we're going to get, hopefully, my hope, an entire episode of Asoka dealing with her guilt. over Anagan

would be amazing. To be reminded of that or for people who haven't watched the animated series to learn more about it for the first time. I think that's brilliant. And again,

this is just, this is, I mean, everyone's mileage to be varying and that's fine, but this is, this is Follone's attempt to bring us all up on the same page about Osaka's mindset

around what happened with Anakin. And he's doing it. It's expert. This is plain exposition dressed up in just like beautifully compelling tense circling, you know, of each other. Yeah. It's a great point. The only reason I'm here is to secure the future for you, something far greater. And then he goes on to say, it is an unfortunate evil but speaks to a greater truth.

One must destroy it in order to create. What is this far greater goal? What is he seeking to create? I could not stop hearing Kyburn in my head saying to Paisel, but sometimes before we can usher in the new, the old must be put to rest. And I could feel the score kicking in

and wins of winter. I heard, let the past die kill it if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be. Both equally valid. Some of our faves. Some of our absolute face.

Yeah. So what is, what is bailing up to here, right? What is his far greater goal? What is the greater good that he is after? This is amazing. That he is after, right? The middle of the bid is extraordinary. Earlier.

Shin Hadi asks him, what happens when we find Thron? And he says, for some war, for others a new beginning, and for us, power, such as you never dreamed. Right? To the power. Right. So. Power. Let's go to this fun theory.

This is a really fun theory. We got a lot of emails about. This one comes from Simon. He says, We know Baylon is a former Jedi and still holds a certain amount of love and admiration for the Jedi. He also seems to have a particular disdain for Antigant for turning to Vader and destroying the order and for Asoka for reasons that aren't totally clear yet. Bailing keeps mentioning he wants to create something, obtain power, and serve the greater good. The greater good.

But we don't know yet exactly what that. is. I think, I think he wants to restart the Jedi order under Thrawn's rule. Baylon still seems affected by the Jedi falling and he's taking on an apprentice after Order 66. I think he wants to start the order again under his leadership, even if that means letting Thron rule in the galaxy. So this is percolating around in my brain, this idea, this is Joanna. This is my, this idea of, him wanting to restart the Jedi order, Jedi order, but I had trouble reconciling that with the concept power. So I got into a conversation with someone I've known for a long time via podcast of Ross at Wolf Ghost, Wolf the Knee after it on Twitter.

And Ross, I was like talking to him about this idea of power and the Jedi order together. And Ross said, going into it more, think about how the Jedi were aware that slavery was ongoing at the time of the Phantom Menace and did nothing because it wasn't, quote, their mandate. Bailey may think that the order subservient status to democracy, i.e. serving the Republic undercut its ability to do justice, right? So he wants to build a new order, this is the theory, he wants to build a new order that is not beholden to anyone else. How he reconciles that under Thrawn question marks as far as I'm concerned, but I guess I can kind of balance this idea of power with a new Jedi order if it's an independent Jedi order

sort of thing. But I don't know. It's quite messy. So I'm not fully, like, satisfied with this as an explanation. But, you know, the fact that, like, Shins walking around with a little Patawan braid is fascinating. Yes. Yeah.

And it does make me think of, well, obviously talk about the Sabine's decision and everything that ensues there in more detail. But, like, he honors his work to her. Yes. I mean, she's in handcuffs at the end. But, like, he brings her. But is it just because of the code or is it because he's like, here's another prospective pupil for my Jedi Academy? Like, that is interesting.

I'm, I'm intrigued by that. He's just gathering the baddest babes in the galaxy to form a fighting force. The other thing that I think is so interesting about this, like whether it's that or anything else, he wants to do something in a different, better way. you might not agree that his way is better, right? But a different better way than the people who came before. And we and the guys talk a lot about how, like, the most impactful and effective Star Wars doles hinge on something central to the characters

and tell us something about the characters. And so this particular exchange was like, I thought so interesting because Asoka agrees. Like, this is something that she believes. Now, again, their methods might differ. But she didn't want to preserve the old order either. And I think that idea of, like, part of what makes some such compelling foils in the show so far is that if circumstances were different, they could maybe be well-suited allies. How similar there are.

Of course. And that's always so interesting when you get, like, Tchala and Killmonger or whatever, you know, you're just sort of like, you're so close. Just a few degrees off. And I think that, yeah, it's very interesting to me this idea of. trying to form a new Jedi order. Another common theory or one that I've seen going around, if you combine the idea of power and the future, is people think he wants access to the world between worlds

so that he can, like, mix in metal with the future, literally. I prefer to think of it as, like, the future of the force and, like, you know, sort of my gothic, my dark academia Jedi Academy, the other side of what Luke is trying to build, you know? I was just going to mention Luke, yeah, and the idea of like parallel Yeah.

Different approaches and how interesting that would be. Yeah, could that happen with the world between worlds? Certainly, but that does feel like what we already saw Palpatine tried to do in there when Ezra and Asoko were in there in rebels. Plus, he just like, he doesn't, it doesn't seem in line with his ambitions. Yeah. Yeah. You don't think he's going to stir a cauldron and stand at his gateway?

Like, no? reaching out with Blue Flame? Like Palfi? No. Joanna. Let's chat about one of the lines that just chills. Asoka draws her lightsaber. We're about to watch white against orange.

It's this great thing where we're building on all of these Star Wars traditions and there are so many duels and temptations and falls that we're thinking of when we're watching the next stretch of this episode. But there's something that feels so new and specific to these characters in this moment. in the story. And what are the markings on Asoka's face, orange and white?

Yes, exactly. What was your... There's another line later about your legacy like your masters is one of death and destruction. This is after some of the initial strange.

Ablows are exchanged. But both of these, like there's a part of me that's like on the death. the destruction front. I'm like a little, little rich coming from the guy who cut through Captain Hale, RIP, and the entire new republic prison vessel without hesitation. But there's something here about the specific nature of the indictment that he is issuing in Asoka's direction that I find fascinating. The how inevitable part connects to a lot of what we talked about earlier, that like

Battlestar idea, the cycles that repeat. Destiny fate, fate, destiny. This is like this flip side, though, of that long line legacy idea that we talked about from last week and this question of what is what has Osoka moved away from, deliberately and with intention, and what is she connected to that she maybe can't totally be free of, either in her own estimation or maybe in other people's estimation? Like, why is this a thing that he's saying to her and believes to be true? Does this strike you as fair? I feel like what we just learned is that Baylon is in the Star Wars fandom because something I learned last week is that the Star Wars fandom calls this the disaster lineage. And so if he's like, if you're in the disaster lineage, which is, you can't be

redeemed, you are cold. Duku to Quigon to Obi-Wan, to Anakin, to Asoka, you're just a mess. You're just continuing the mess. I just want to say this fight, because of Ray Stevenson's size, there's that moment where he just, like, like bears down on her that I rewatched like five times because I just thought it was like so cool. He just like muscles her down, you know, and she's like live and Agile and is darting and he does a, you know, his stunt double does like a really nice little like twirl in the air. For the most part, this is just like a brute force. Yes. His lightsaber feels heavy. It reminds me of watching Brian fight the hound. Like it is just sort of. I'm just going to say that. Yes. I think his outfit of,

again, like a hoax their costuming, but it is more like he's holding a long sword or a broad sword than a saber. Yeah, and we don't... And we don't... See that, like, usually, and especially in the animated world, like, people love the animated lightsaber's action

because it's just like so... Because you can do something that you can't do in live action, but it's just, like, go so fast. And it's just like fast and agile and light and just like, boop, boom, boom, and there's something dazzling about that. But I love the heft of this. Yeah, I thought it was so cool.

What did you make of Asoka going? So in the first action stretch of the episode, which is Assoca on Sabine and Hu Yang against the gang, she's using Grotsabors. She activates both when she has out of the T6 against Maruk and then here against Baylon. She's only using one lightsaber, which we've not seen from her in some time. So what did you make of that conscious choice to almost like revert to an earlier version of herself? I don't know that I have a great explanation for it, honestly, like because it seems like a slight maybe, let's just say she wanted to keep one hand free to go for the map. And so she's got saber in one hand and she's using the other hand to try to grab the map.

But it seems a little funky because she also didn't draw both on Merck and I don't know why she wouldn't. Needed one hand clear to like fan the smoke out of her eye. in case he was a magic meat puppet Muruk. Remember Maruk? And great stuff. You know,

speaking of that ferocity, yeah. When, I thought it was interesting that when Bailen says your legacy,

like your master's is one of death and destruction, she doesn't attack him with her lightsaber at all in response. She kicks him with her feet.

She barrels down on him physically with her body. And it's like, again, like a and maybe like unconscious, like separating from a Jedi's weapon and just like the rage

and the pure force of it pouring out of her in that moment. And we're about to see some more rage. Joe. Because it is time to head to Mordor

to head into the fires of Mount Doom for a very deliberate Lord of the Rings comp here. The hand. the searing of the hand, the star map on the hand, will we be reading this map?

What do you think? So in Raiders at the last start, everyone's favorite squirily Nazi in a fedora, grabs medallion, and it sears onto his hand, and he then uses it to figure out, I mean, they're digging in the wrong place, but like, you know, for the most part,

figure out where to dig, because he essentially has a map on his hand. And so I immediately was like, that has to be why they did this, right? But if you look, she literally holds her hand up to deflect him back with the force. She's so gloved up that it's like, I'm like, how could this have made a mark on her? And then Baylon has that line about like the coordinates are so precise that if you, you know, miss them, you'll end up in the fucking void with Jude Law and his code. And it's just like, you know, I am less confident in my they're going to use.

the map. I mean, I'm very confident they're going to follow. I'm very confident that when he destroys and he's like, no one can follow us now. I'm like, have you met the whales? But, um, this, that was that, my one note genuinely on the episode is that nobody, I think it will happen next week, but that nobody is like, oh, wow, the purgals are back. We haven't seen them since Ezra. Wait a minute. Could they help? It's very silly. Yeah, if your calculations are off even a little is what he said to Morgan. And it's just like, so I don't think of a gloved birdmarked hand map of just one side of the ball is really going to do it for us. But it did feel a little lostarchy to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, she is certainly in an incredible amount of pain and is on the defensive as a result as Baylon like attacks hard. And he's saying that was unwise. and he's charging. And then he truly and genuinely chilling sequence unfolds. Shin emerges. And if she's here, this is what's playing out in Asoka's mind in real time, then Sabine must be dead.

And she quietly like emits Sabine's name. Sabine. And then she force hurls Shin. head first into a rock. It was a... That's not a light side move. It was astonishing. Yeah.

And I, to be clear, I loved it. Like, I thought it was a bold and amazing thing to show us. And, like, we have seen Asoka kill a ton of people, including in this episode of television mere moments prior. But this is different. Like, Osoko wouldn't train Grogo because of his attachment and his fear, right? His attachment to you makes him vulnerable to his fears and his anger. She told us to be in last episode, anger and frustration unbalance you.

She tried to pass down that your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them, lesson from Obi-Won. And then here she just forgets it all. And she acts on emotion and fear and moves in anger and rage. It's like Joel killing everyone in goddamn hospital because he can't get. to Ellie, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, like, completely unbalanced. She's completely unbalanced around Sabine. And it's so interesting for us to, like, see it here.

How much this knocks her off her game. How, again, you already mentioned, like, shouldn't she have been able to, like, sense that there was danger with Huying outside of the ship? Yeah. Shouldn't she be able to feel whether or not Sabine died or not, like, one would think. But again, I'm fine to you accept the idea. that she is completely, her jets are completely scrambled by this fear. That's what I like about it, that like she is falling prey to the same thing that she is

identifying as like a risk and a peril in other people, whether it's Groger and Sevin. Rejection. Yeah, it's just so human. So human. We got an email from Brittany. Brittany's name is spelled extremely Frenchy, so I really hope it's Brittany. But anyway, Brittany wrote much like another listener before her. I've spent most of the morning thinking about this and how out of character it seemed for Asoka.

But then I was reminded of the line we got in the opening episode where she revealed to Hu Yang that she didn't use traditional Jedi methods when she was questioning someone for Morgan's whereabouts. I didn't dwell on it too much then, probably more out of a conscious effort than anything. But now coupled with this moment where she hurls shin into the rock, we actually saw for ourselves. I'm forced to ask just how much the Asoka now is the same one we know and love. Um, Asoka the Grey. In the Grey. Sok of the Grey on a journey to Assook of the White.

This is great stuff. Now it's Balin's turn. Right. To be completely enraged. His Padawan slash daughter hit a rock. And he, so again,

these two people are like in control until the question of these apprentices come up. You can't go save the person you love because. feelings and then look at what those feelings do to them. It's just, this is great. It didn't need to come to this, but you know no other way. Again, that gave me a chill. He's like, you, the only way you know out of something is to fight your way out of it. Well, I don't know that that is accurate and fair for Asoka. Certainly not, that's not been true of every moment we've ever seen for Asoka. But if he's, if he's just thinking of her as one in the disaster lineage, then like,

you know, the you people. But I think that's so interesting about it for us and for her. Because we always talk about her as like the other way character. She is the character who finds the other way. And so like the depth of that indictment to say like you're always going to fall into this same whole too. It's like less about whether it is true and more about what it means for you to stop and wonder if it is. Right. But also I think a lot of people are making their predictions about what's going to happen next week.

And there are plenty people who want to see Asoka, like, fight her way out of whatever's going to happen next week. And I'm hoping it is not a lightsaber situation next week. I hope this is like an emotional processing, intelligence, choices, hard choices, all that sort of stuff. Because I am anticipating an episode built around temptations and trials. Right. Exactly. But if it's like, if it's like, who's going to swing their lightsaber the fastest and the hardest in this world? I'm like, that's boring. And I don't think that's the story we're going to get. And I think it is very key to have a character here say, you know no other way and for us to see her use another way next week. Yeah.

Dana. I agree with the one caveat, which is they didn't get to finish their duel. Oh, well, they're going to fight again. That's best for like episode six or seven or eight. That's a six or seven or eight concern. I mean, Vader and Asoka. Oh, Vader and Soka. Pull out, pulled into the world between worlds.

That's an unresolved, unfinished showdown. I can't fuck. Okay, whatever. We'll talk about that one. We'll see. Who knows? Who knows what we'll get? We know we got an Elrond moment here from Asoka, going full Elrond.

Cast him into the fire. Destroy it. The sealed door. She just says destroy it. No. It's interesting to me. You and I have different interpretations of this, right? Like Sabine's got her blaster up to the globe

And she doesn't just shoot it in her hand Which would hurt her hand I don't know anyway She doesn't just shoot it right away She says like step away from her right And Assoca Is having a moment on her face And your interpretation is

She thinks it's done You didn't do the thing that we agreed That you were going to do immediately and it's over That's the opening it's done I am What are you? To disagree with you because your read on Asoka is almost always, probably always better than mine. But I, my interpretation was he was clocking her vulnerability, her distraction, her concern for some being, like that she is just like distracted and shattered and he could just sort of knock her off her game.

Definitely. But I think the, I think part of the distraction is how did. deeply she cares about this person being okay, the very same attachment that she fears and other people and, of course, in herself. And part of it is the... I mean, because... The, like, shattering

realization that the thing that she had harped on and, like... On the one hand, yes, yes. I hear what you're saying. On the other hand, I think Sabine in that moment, the other layer of that is that Sabine is not just like, I'm not going to destroy this

because it's going to get me to Ezra. It's also, this is my... a bargaining chip I can use to save my master who I care about. So it's just sort of like that tether. Yes. Like Sabine's tether to Ezra, but Sabine's tether to Asoka, too, and how both of those tethers are stopping her from doing yes, to your point. Right.

The thing that Asoka was like, you're going to do that right. We all agree that the move is as soon as we get the ball, drop it if it's really hot, but then pick it up later and shoot it, okay? I mean, because, especially on the, like, her coming off of that, exchange with Baylon and like what he said to her. Like there's just, I think she, she can feel what he's going to do to Sabine. She's like, here comes the fucking disaster lineage again. Here's my question.

Sabine's catching a lot of shit for doing what she does. And we'll talk about that. Does she deserve it? Some of it for sure. Watching how Baylon destroys the map, which is just shove a lightsaber through it. Can we say, why didn't Asoka shove her lightsaber through it? Why did she reach out and grab a hot metal ball that was on magic fire? Yeah.

A lot of people made a lot of decisions today. Magic fire. Yeah. Magique. Yeah. Magique. It's a completely reasonable question. We'll have to crunch the game tape, you know.

Assoca goes over the edge of the cliff. And all of us at home are like, oh, well, I guess she's dead. Just kidding. Not a single person thought that. Not for a second. Except for Sabine. Sabine thinks, oh no. Never trust a fall in Star Wars, Sabine.

Never. Sabine's like, no. So, Joe, Baylon and Shin are not at an opera house on Corrassant, but we are about to get their version of the Palpatine temptation of Anakin Skywalker. We've talked about a lot of what unfolds here already, but the Mandalor. Klan-Ren death reveal here. This whole exchange is what we heard of this our opening clip of the episode here. I know that's what's holding you back.

Your family died on Mandelaar because your master didn't trust you. First of all, shout out Haley. Haley, who emailed us this theory last week and completely crushed this. Nailed it. House Haley. Unbelievable. House Haley. And the sigil for House Haley, it's not bad.

like for House Hoddy, it's it's just like a Hermione Granger-esque hand in the air knowing you're absolutely right about something. I love it. The like raw wound that he is opening with this didn't trust you. Line. Now, I still want to know, I'm so eager to learn why Asoka didn't go to Mandelor to help,

given her connection to that place and the number of times she had gone there to help before. but if she made her choose your training over your attachments pitch to Sabine, like the order had to Anakin, like Luke does with Grogu. That is just so rich and so sad. This was just devastating. The look on Sabine's face as Baylon is bringing this up and forcing her to think about this and relive this. Like when she said to Hu Yang in the second episode, she quit on me.

And he said the past is the past move forward. Like, how could you move forward for this? What's a genocide? What's a genocide amongst friends, you know? Joe, how could you, how could you move forward from that? And how could you, given the parallels, like, you're asking me again not to go save my family, my brother who wants to fuck me? You're asking me again not to go save my family. How would you move beyond that?

For listeners who have not watched rebels, like we meet our family. They're honestly not the greatest people we've ever met. Her dad's great. Not all the greatest people we've ever met, but still, you know, it is important. House Ren does exist. Yes. No more, I suppose. It's just Sabine.

And part of Sabine's arc was reconciling with them. Yes. And then deciding to stay and help them and help Mandelor before going back to the Specter. right? Like that is a key part of her arc. Yeah. Were you thinking when we got that, I know, I know you feel Ezra Bridger is the only family you have left. Did you do the instant, the two thoughts at once, like extremely tough beat for Hara, Jason, Chopper, and Zeb? But also very touching, very sweet. It made me think of like Sabine saying to Fen and rebels, I have a family here on this ship. And how true that is that the other specters like have, occupy that.

space in her heart. And to ask her not to save him, period, would be like an impossible thing. But when she already lost her family, this is like a recurrence. It's just almost like unbearable. Well, I think, and it goes back to, I mean, this is the, this is the question that people had at the beginning when they felt like Asoka was too slow in the first couple episodes. And again, like, I was thinking about, I was talking to Van about this a little bit over the weekend, this idea that like the first three episodes of Asoka, of Andor, which all dropped

together. The first three dropped one night. I think people were like, that was pretty good. Like the last one has some like, but the first two were kind of slow. And then the last one is a little like peeky, but then like really started cooking with gas episode four on. That's when Andor got really good. You and I talked about this before. You were like, yeah, andor had a few more episodes though to like do that, whereas this is a shorter season. But that lonely girl. sequence that we get with Sabine at the beginning is so key to help people who don't, who haven't watched the animated series understand what is, better understand what is going on here.

She does, like, you know, Hara and Chopper and Jason and Zab all exist, but like, Hera and Chopper and Jason are a little family unit, and Zeb is, of course, shacked up with Callis. And so, like, who does Sabine have? She has her beautiful cat, but like... Sleep, blah, yeah. But, you know, like, they have their little pods. Definitely Zeb and callus for sure.

We know that for sure. That is canon. We don't. But, you know, so that's why I can kind of justify, like, how you can still have those connections that feel lonely on the outside of it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Did you enjoy Baylon's palpiesk? Do it. Do it. I loved it. I loved it. Obviously the do-it language makes us think of Palpatine, but it is so distinct, like,

they come with me willingly. It's an invitation, as much as it is a temptation. And we have, like, the very central Thronean love is the death of duty idea here with do it for Ezra, and balance that against... Pol Frodo. Fofroto.

balance that against the greater good. What do you think of the choice to being made? What do you think of the choice to being made? Where do you come down? I mean, listen, is it a good choice? No. Am I pained by the Midnight Boys comparing it to Star Lord's maneuver with Thanos in Finney War,

which I think is one of the biggest dumb shit moves of all time, and it hurts me to put Sabine in that category? It does. I, at the same time, as far as she knows, Sooka's dead, because Sabeen's never seen a Star Wars movie. So she thinks Succa's dead and she's all alone surrounded by the enemy. I got that I was cracking up when the guys were like, just look over the edge.

But she wouldn't have been there, so it would have been booed. But is the smart move? You know. Okay. question. Do you think Asoka is literally in the belly of a purgle right now? Like a pocket dimension inside of a flurkin? Well, no, I mean, like, she's in the world between worlds, but do you think, like, because is she floating, you know, because like, where is her body right now? Is it floating in the water?

Is it bobbing along, like, you know, in the water? No, I think she went into a gateway, like, into a portal while she fell. And either she did, I think she's going to wake up inside a pergill. I thought that would be great. I think either she got pulled in. or because of her connection to that place and her connection to the mortis gods, maybe she could just like... Well, I think she's nearly dead.

Access the gateways. I think she's, like, in the border of life and death and that is what pulled her in. I don't think there was necessarily, like, a gateway. And she stopped and did the repositioning of the mortis got hands and then the... Like a horizontal gateway right over the cliff. She fell into the TARDIS.

But I think that... Anyway, point being. She thinks Asoka's dead. Yeah. Right. She is more vulnerable because she feels more alone in that moment. What are her moves? What moves does she have?

Like this is, I mean, she could destroy the map. She could destroy the map. She would die. And then she could destroy the map. And then she could go find the pergill and try to connect with them and go find Ezra. She's not reading Reddit. She's not reading Reddit. She does listen to the podcast.

She doesn't know. To be clear, I'm. I'm. And this is, I guess, like, an incredibly unpopular opinion. I'm, like, more team Sabine than not on this one. I think, like, I support women's rights, but more importantly, I support women's wrongs. And Sabine made a move here that's not great. But what I don't, what I'm not going to do is what we got a lot of emails about,

is now pin the entirety of the rise of the first order on Sabine Ren right here. because there's a lot of steps that got us here. Sabine Run doing this thing, not great. That part is very tough. The like, how will we ever be able to untether this from everything that happens as a result? I think if every single person is being honest with themselves, you do the same thing.

You do the same thing. Like, you hand it over to save your friend. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, I have... I have compassion for that. I would doom the galaxy for you, not all your own.

And I would do the same for you. Thanks, pal. Without question. Here's my thing on the Star Lord, Gamora, Thanos comp. It's not the company you want to be in. No. It's a valid observation because without question,

the trolley problem math has not in Sabine's favor here. Rationally, logically, she makes the wrong choice. If you're going to invoke Starlord, I think you have to make the other Infinity War Comp too, which is CAP, saying to Vision, we don't trade lives. Why is that okay for the Avengers, but not for Sabine? Right? Like, that's part of, there's an element of, this is why I love this, because it's, again, it's a temptation and a fall, but it's one that we can understand. The parallel to Anakin is clear, right?

They both want to save a person they love. Anakin wants to stop Padmey from dying. Sabine wants to find Ezra before there's no possible way to do so in the future because everybody has already forgotten about the purgle. The distinction in exactly what they're trying to achieve there, though. And how. DeNargarin forgot about the Iron Fleet. Sveen Red kind of forgot about the furtals. No, I love this episode too much to make that comp.

Though that did really just make me laugh, get stuck. You're the best. You're the best. I'm sorry. Go ahead. There is like the comp of your attachment, your love, your affection, your connection to another person being weaponized against you. and the tragedy of your enemy appealing to that bond in your life

when your allies and the people around you are saying, don't heed that, is like just so interesting to me. I love that. And I just don't know how many people would be strong enough to make a different choice than the ones to being made. Go back. Put on your boots.

We're going back to the swamps of Dagobah. Let's go back to Luke leaving Dagobah, right? Where Yoda says, go to say your friends. You end your training now. If you choose the course, quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil. And Luke says, and sacrifice Han and Leah. And Yota says, if you honor what they fight for, yes. And Luke's like, peace. I'm going.

Right. I'm going. Go save your friends against advice from wiser people. That is a strong lineage in the world of Star Wars. It is indeed. It is indeed. It was electric to watch Sabine's face as she is. contemplating her choice. Just unbelievable. And then when she puts the map in his hand, his waiting hand, and there's the moment before you realize that maybe you understood

instantaneously that Shin was forced-stroking her. I had like the split second where I was like, her labored heavy breathing, is this the response to realizing what she's just done? And that dissonance inside of wanting to save Ezra

no matter the cost and like wondering if she is just doomed the entire galley. that was, that was great. And then this is where Baylon steps in and says, Shinn. Shan. Shan. And on what, Shinn?

We talked about this. Drop it. At family dinner. Can't keep force choking people. Don't play with your food. No one's going to want to be in our new Jedi Academy. Shin. But again, I think, and I think, so the Baylon, the Baylon and Asoka com to each other is so,

juicy and delicious and makes a lot of sense. But who do we talk about a lot last week? I did. I kept bringing it up. Quigon. And it just makes me think a lot about Quigon and Quigon operating in his own idea of a code that operates outside of. So, like, I have a code that I adhere to. I'm Baylon. I gave her my word.

I duped her into fucking over the galaxy, but I'm going to keep my promise. I just loved the scene. I thought it was amazing. How did you enjoy the hyperspace activation of the eye of Sauron? Holdo on your mind? Gorgeous. Glorious. It's beautiful.

Stoen. Stoen. Stunin. Like, I thought it was absolutely incredible. With love and respect to Jason. and Sedula. Of all that I've got a bad feeling about this moments we've had, this was the most no-shit Sherlock of them.

Mom, a giant giant giant, giant ring just tore through half of our ships. I've got a bad feeling. I want a chaper to be like, toughen up. It's fine. Oh, my God. It was really anguish-inducing when up on the eye of cyan. Saron? Damn you.

They mentioned the New Republic ships. Yeah. And Sabine's like, Hera. If I just waited. Just a minute more. That was brutal. Here's my question.

How do you get from the Henge to the eye? Take a little shuttle. The little shuttle. Yeah, the little shuttle. It's just a fast shuttle is all I'm saying. Like that is a fast shuttle. Zippy. And I bet they wish they wish they.

had beam you up technology like they do in Star Trek. Okay. Anyway. It was a subedee. Yeah. So this wasn't actually the same as the Holda maneuver and the sense of this did not rip through the ships. It's like this energy pulse that sends the fighters ricocheting into each other and the

ghost spinning out. But yeah, the visuals, the sound, much like it evokes Holdo so powerfully because like the sights and the sounds, the way that just the sound is like sucked out of the screen when you're watching the Hold on maneuver for the first time. I still remember of watching that in the movie theaters and just like, I was like, gasping? Yeah, just awed. And this just, of course, brings that.

Have you mentioned that we really love The Last Jedi? I fucking love that movie. Cool. Should we go into the belly of the percol? Let's do it. Whoie-Hang is calling for Sabine and Assoca and they don't answer, but when we call Ben, Ben! Okay, it is time to talk about the closing scene of the episode, and it is also time for our Laura Look with Ben Lindberg.

Ben is joining us to talk about the final scene in the world between worlds. Ben! Trade every time. Great stuff. Ben, welcome to the podcast. We are delighted to be here with you in this blue glowing abyss. Quick question, Ben. Yeah.

Where do you think Asoka's body is right now? It's a great question. I think it's in some kind of corporeal realm. I don't know that it's in the world between worlds. I think she's in some sort of transitional stage right now. You think she's like, this is happening while she's falling? I'm going to give you three options. Four options.

Number one, midair. Because time works differently there, let's say. Number two, bobbing long face up on the surface of the ocean. Number three, in the belly of a pergul. Number four, underwater. But again, this is going to be like instantaneous and the time doesn't matter. I'm going to go with one.

This is all sort of a life flashing before your eyes kind of deal. Okay. Okay. I don't think she's in a pergill or animated pergill opened a portal on the cliff face the way the wolf wolves did at the... Jedi don't.

Like a Jonah and the whale style story. That's what I think. I think she's in a pergill. I think she's, I think. Joe's theory. I think I agree with you. This is a life flashes before your eyes, sort of instantaneous kind of thing. But I think her body is physically in a pergul right now.

Did the pergill pull her into the world between worlds? Or is she just hallucinating that she's there? But really, she's in the warm, pulsating belly of the pergul. Right. Why not both? You know what I mean? Sure. Boy.

If she's in the belly of a pergol, This would just really go down as an all-time episode for gas in Star Wars. You know, we had Maruk, green, hissy emissions, and we know that Pergall's feed on gas. A lot of possibilities here. Pals, before we talk about the, sorry, just visual splendor and the emotion, I'm doing, don't apologize. This is worse. This is why we thought. Should we explain to our adoring and adored listeners who are at the three plus hour mark of this podcast with us now?

what the world between worlds is. Let's quickly establish that and when we have seen it before and then we will discuss what we actually see in this scene and what it might mean. Benjamin, what's the world between worlds? Where are the listeners bodies right now? Are they inside the bellies of pericles? Are they? Is their life flashing before their eyes yet? Forded on the pathway to Peridia, like a galaxy of new possibility heading toward hour four of the house of our podcast. Yes. Well, when you think you understand, The force, you realize just how little you know. And I don't even think I understand the force.

So I definitely realize how little I know, especially about the World Between Worlds, which is something of a cipher. I don't know that anyone other than Dave Filoni himself has all the answers this time. But we can tell you what we think we know and what we know it's not or what we think we know it's not. We may know more by this time next week. But the World Between Worlds is a Rebels concoction, officially season four of Rebels, although there were some earlier appearances in different forms that, according to Volone, were sort of proto-world Between Worlds, just weren't going by that name yet. But in season four, Ezra enters the World Between Worlds from the Jedi Temple on La Thal,

and that's when he pulls Asoka away from seemingly certain death, in her duel with Darth Vader, which took place in Rebel season two, which is not technically time travel, but I guess is sort of a form of time travel. So Ezra pulls her away from Vader's blade and ultimately she goes back out the way she came in. But this is sort of a mystical realm outside of time and space. There is a book that came out a couple years ago called The Secrets of the Sith. So now that it's out, I guess the secrets are out also,

but there's a Darth Sidious quote in that book. He says, this mystical realm connects all of time and space, creating a conduit between the living and the dead. Those who control this plane would possess mastery over all existence, but gaining access has proved an unexpected challenge. And Palpi tries.

very hard to get into the world between worlds and is thwarted. Ultimately, Ezra seals off that entrance on Lethal to the World Between Worlds. And evidently we've found a different entrance and or pergill belly here. So there are a lot of questions about how exactly this works, and it's all very vague as of now. But Dave Flonny has addressed this. He has talked about at least what it's not. or how he doesn't see it, right? So he has said, it's really not about time travel at all. It's just about a place where everything comes together. It's not this system of doorways, like you're on an elevator, getting off at different floors at different times.

It's more about knowledge, knowledge that you can use for your benefit for good or knowledge that will lead to destruction. He said, it's not my intention that it be this ability to walk through into somebody else's world. It's not this place of gateways and doorways that you can just go in and out of. Ezra can pull Asoka into that world, but she's smart enough to know that she can't leave that world through his door. She'll be destroying the natural balance and order of things. She has to go back where she came. So this only works because Ezra always saved Asoka from that fight. Right.

It's not that. Right. It's time travel never really completely makes sense. But this is one of the forms of time. This is, I guess, more the Terminator model, at least original Terminator model. Terminator 1. Let's just keep it there. Yeah.

It's not delve too deeply into that. But yes, it's not that she died. And Ezra brought her back to life. It's just that he happened to pop his arm in and pull her out. And so that never didn't happen. That was always what happened. John Connor always sent his best friend back in time. to fuck his mom. Oh, exactly. Right. And in that same scene, so when you appear in the world

between worlds, you hear voices, you see certain scenes that seem to be kind of tailored to the individual. So you're attuned to certain scenes from your own life or certain voices of people that you knew. And so Ezra sees Canaan as Canaan is sacrificing himself, giving his life. and he's very tempted to do the same thing to pull Canaan out just like he pulled Asoka out. And Asoka stops him. And she says, no, you can't do that because Canaan sacrificing himself saved you and others. And so if you prevent him from sacrificing himself, then you will seek to exist. And if that happens, then we have all kind of continuity errors.

Right. Foloni has said if that would happen, everything will break. It will cause chaos. It will cause destruction. He's not trying to do the multiverse. Like, that's not what he's doing. Right. Yeah.

Yes. So that's the thing about the world between worlds. You can see why Faloni loves this idea, because this is just so sympathetico with how he thinks about Star Wars. I've talked about these quotes before, but he's stated that his mission and John Favro's mission is to make this feel like one big connected galaxy. That's what Star Wars is where all the stories come together. And the World Between Worlds is the mid-of-year-ynolds is the mid-of-year-ynolds. manifestation of that. It is where all the stories come together, and it's where he can potentially tie them together. And he said this explicitly. One of the things I wanted to do was find a way

to tie together all of the Star Wars film and animated series in one place so that people get this idea that this is all a connected thing. And this is that place. So this is pretty important to him. So I want to go back to one of the descriptions that, I think a slightly different quote, but very similar to the one you pulled out where Faloni is talking about what the world between worlds is and isn't. And he says, you can gain knowledge of the future or futures that may happen, and you can see things that happen in the past. You can at times choose to alter them, but it's perilous to do so.

And when you alter something, you don't know if that's the way it always happened. So destruction is the other half of what's in there. And I, with apologies, with love and respect to our listeners in the body, like the belly of a whale who are like, it's been many hours. I'm going to hit you with the Tolkien passage. I love you all. Okay. Mirror of Galadryal, right?

of Mallory and I talked about this so much when we talked about the Rings of Power from the book version Many things I can command the mirror to reveal She answered and to some I can show what they desire to see But the mirror will also show things unbidden And those are often stranger And more profitable than things which we wish to behold

What you will see if you leave the mirror Free to Work I cannot tell for it shows things that were Things that are And things that yet may be But which is it that he sees Even the wisest cannot always tell Do you wish to look? And remember, ellipsies, remember, the mirror shows many things and not all have yet come to pass.

Some never come to be unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds. And so I think as much as we're talking about time travel, multiverse, all this other stuff, I think this idea of fate and destiny is tied into this. Like if you are, because when Ezra goes into the world between worlds, he hears things that have not yet happened in his timeline, right? He's hearing the future as well as like seeing, we see him see the past. And so I love that. I mean, I don't know if we're going to do the mirror of Galadryl in here, but I like this idea of like things that have yet come to pass, like or may yet come to pass.

And I think as we all three of us love to talk about Star Wars and fate and destiny and sort of what you can change, what you can't change, and what that might free you from if there are things you cannot change, you know? Well, and Asoka is the perfect character to further explore that idea because she's the one who has voiced that already for us in the canon. when Ezra is tempted to try to pull Canaan back the way that she did, the way that he did with Asoka, and she's explaining to him that distinction. And he says you don't understand what you're asking me to do, which is becoming a bit of a pattern. Right.

What does she say? She says, yes, I do. You can't save your master and I can't save mine. I'm asking you to let it. go. And so I was thinking of another mirror, Joe. Like, this has real mirror of Arisad vibes and potential, too. Like, it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, whether you're seeing the past or the future for these characters in this place, those things are inextricable from each other. The idea of something in your past that you regret and lament and that haunts

you still, like, what is Anakin here? He's this literal ghost from her past and what that temptation might be then for you in terms of what it might mean for your future. This is, like, incredible. We could spend a season in here and I would be elated. We all would be, right? So can Asoka find the strength if she is tempted, if she is shown these glimpses to do the thing that she told Ezra he had to do? And this is what I was alluding to earlier when I was saying, I don't mind watching characters go through a trial that we kind of think they've already, like a lesson we think they've already learned. Because when she says to Ezra in season four of Rebels, you can't save your master and I can't save mine.

We're like, oh, she's learned a lesson. She's good. But when confronted with that, when you see a digitally de-aged sky guy in front of you, that's different than just saying, I figured it all out. I'm zen. I got it. She's like, oh, but it's right here. It's right there.

I can reach it, dad. Let it go, Indiana, you know? Just like it's different to have a practical. well-reasoned conversation about whether to save one friend or let Throne back into the galaxy versus having to like decide in that moment whether to destroy the map. Let's hear what unfolds in this moment. Master. I didn't expect to see you so soon. Not great.

Guys. I have overwhelmed and concerned all at once. This was incredible. To see Asoka and Anakin together in live action for the first time, is like just an all-time Star Wars moment. And that quiet hello-snips that you can actually barely even hear listening back to that clip there. And the way that when she first has mastered and then kind of rubs her head like a doubt, no, it can't be. And then the look on both of their faces as they see each other, there's Ben, you had

embedded a tweet in your piece that had screenshots of this, but like the parallels of the way that they're like staring at each other across this. pathway. Joe, we always like to talk on our Thrones Pots about like the idea of a long walk, right? Some sort of like gap and distance that you have to bridge and the flipping and inverting from something like the Clone War Season 5 departure to their reunion and then ensuing farewell in a moment like this. There's just so much here.

Including Darth Vader's theme, which is concerning. I am concerned. Ben, who do you think this is? It's a great question because it could be forced ghost Anakin, right? Post-redemption Anakin? He's not blue, but maybe he wouldn't be blue in the world between worlds. I don't know how that works. It could be some people have speculated young Anakin, corporeal Anakin, right?

But he doesn't seem to be, you know, somehow he stumbled into this at some point during the Clone Wars. and he's actually still that age, although the fact that we don't see him pull Asoka in, he's not there when she materializes, and then he seems to materialize out of nowhere. That makes me think that's probably not so likely, right? And if that were the case, then that would cause a whole dilemma

because he wouldn't know what is in store for him, and she would, which would mean that she wouldn't be able to tell him or would she? It would change the future. Then he would know that somehow. And also if he had been the young Anakin and he had had this vision of the older Asoka, that probably wouldn't make sense because he didn't seem to know that she was still alive when he was Darth Vader and they fought in rebels, right? So that doesn't seem to square. My only suspicion about this does the fact that they deaged him here, but not in Obi-One? Does that lend any credence to the idea that this is

supposed to be the younger Anakin? Because if this were just force ghost, Anakin, why go to the trouble? What's to prevent him from just looking the way Hayden Christensen does now? Unless, I don't know, were people upset about him looking a little older in Obey? Because that was, it was fine with me. It was fine with me, but yes, they were. Yeah. Yeah.

Great point. Wait, can you say the thing about the Hilt? Because I think that's deeply interesting. So there is some speculation. that he's actually holding Darth Vader's lightsaber here. It's kind of tough

to tell with the lighting. My initial thought was that it was. Now I think maybe it's not. It's certainly not definitively. It could definitely still just be Anakin's lightsaber

from Revenge of the Sith. But obviously, that is definitely Darth Vader's theme. Yes. So one way or another, right? Yeah.

And that doesn't necessarily mean that there's something evil about Anakin here as he's appearing in this particular scene, it could just mean that we're going to span

the life of Anakin slash Vader during the upcoming episode, right? Yeah. So, you know, people have speculated that like this isn't Anakin

at all. Maybe it's like the mortist gods, right? It's the sun. Right. Which seems like a lot to bring the live action on it's up to speed on,

frankly. So I don't know that just for that reason alone and having to appraise, keep people apprises of, like, clone wars and rebels. And here are these mystical holy trinity of force wielders. That seems a lot to cram into this next episode on top of explaining what the world between worlds is. So my quote is that.

We should acknowledge that they are connected, right? Like Asoka to the daughter, Anakin to the Sun. So it's not like impossible, but yeah, it would be. Right. And the entrance to the world between worlds on La Thal was. a mural of the three, yeah. The thing that I'm fighting against in terms of like this is a forest ghost is I was not aware that the forest ghosts were allowed costume changes, like that they had like a forest ghost closet.

Then again, they just completely reckon what Anakin Force Ghost looked like at a certain point. It should be Sebastian Shaw in here. Who the fuck knows anyway. Yeah, I mean, I'm only, I don't need to get it. like two tanglingle. I like the theories or the questions, but like we'll find out next week who he is. So like it's not that stressful to me. But I think I think the narrative opportunities here are just so delightfully rich. And I'm so excited for all of us that we get to experience it. Me too. Yeah. I'm not trying to be a Faloni versus hipster here. But I'm honestly more eagerly

anticipating this meeting than I was the Obi-Wan Vader re-slash pre-match in Obi-Wan Kenobi. Because aside from the thrill of seeing Ewan and Hayden together again, there just wasn't much potential for growth or catharsis in those characters meeting again at that point in the timeline. What would we or they learn from that showdown? How would it make sense for them to part again? It didn't really. But anyway, here we have Asoka and potentially a redeemed post-Darth-Annequin meeting for the first time. Like, these two have a lot to talk about at this time.

Their last interaction was the Twilight of the Apprentice duel on Malacquil and kill each other. Right. This isn't some intermediate meeting between other meetings we've already seen. This is momentous. This is something where we have no idea which way that's going to go. Because Assoca's been through so much and is clearly showing the signs of that in this series, I think this could sort of serve a twofold purpose because, A, it's a great opportunity for development of that character, but also it could bring the audience up to speed, reacquaint everyone with where she's been, what she's been through.

I would love to see just the portal opens up and we see animated flashbacks. That would be fun. I'm not expecting that. Redemption for Jomey. Yeah, that would be. Right. Yeah, so this could be just sort of a tour of the greatest hits of Asoka's suffering over the past few decades. It's like the Ember Island Players episode of Avatar.

Yeah, I mean, what I love about this concept of the World Between Worlds is that it has its origins, like in the original trilogy when Yoda says through the force, things you will see other places, the future of the past. old friends long gone. And then also connects through the sequel trilogy when Ray has her, Ray is not in the World Between Worlds, even though when she goes into her little like force vision in, in the Force Awakens, like she's in a hallway. It's a physical hallway,

but it is blue and like, it does slightly invoke the look of the World Between Worlds. But, you know, Ray gets to see all this. We get a, it's such a clever narrative technique where we get to just get a download. of a bunch of stuff that happens in a way that feels like kind of spooky and cool and spiritual. And when Ray and the Force Awakens hears like, Ray, these are your first step.

Like that sound effect on both Alec Guinness and E. McGregor saying that to Daisy, uh, release character is very similar to how Anakin sounds when he says, hello Snips, like right at the beginning there. It's that like very echoy, almost not even there, there. Yeah. Yeah. The existence of the world between worlds as a concept kind of makes me nervous because there's sort of danger in abusing this concept.

I trust Faloni not to. I think he seems very conscious of we need some guardrails here because this could get out of hand, right? If it's just a free for all with time travel and changing timelines, then it's a short step to total multiverse slash just undoing any stakes and bringing people back. from the dead, right? So in a way, it makes me nervous, like in someone else's hands, who was less respectful of the constraints here, might this be abused? Could this power be abused to twist the timeline in ways that I wouldn't be comfortable with? But it worked so well in

the rebels. Right. But like, yeah, and not only is it in Filoni's hands in something he's clearly spent a lot of time thinking about how he wants to explore and deploy, like, we're with the right characters for this to feel purposeful and contained. It's not just that we were last there with Asoka. She came out of the duel with Vader. So, like, there's an Anakin connection, right? Ezra, which everything that's unfolding and happening is about whether to go save Ezra, what choice to make regarding Ezra.

And that's who she was in there with before. So, like, our character set is actually the same in a way, right, from when we were last there, which feels, I think, helpful in terms of those guardrails. You know, to the face point from Earl. earlier in that question, like, I think if this is, and the temptation maybe is more of an internal one, like, if I have rendered this and I am assessing these moments from my past and thinking through these things, what is the temptation that I just feel? If there is, like, on the theory corner front, some other hand at play here, we should at least mention that when

Palpatine was trying to woo Ezra with his, with the vision of his parents, which was not in the world between worlds, but was directly conditioned. It was like the piece of the Jedi temple from the area where Ezra had accessed the world between worlds and it was right on the heels of Palpatine trying to get in. So it's not in the world between worlds. I acknowledge that, but there's a connection. He put on that like false face, that younger face, right? The more like safe, comfortable, familiar face. So I think it's difficult having, if you've watched rebels to not at least like wonder about that. But where I think we all are is that like Asoka seeing Anakin, in this way because this is her Anakin. This is SkyGy. And she snips. And of course, this is who she would see and what he would look like because it was how he was when she last saw him when they said, when they said goodbye,

but also like didn't really. And I love the idea. You know, we've had so many moments. It's like, well, we learn about thing X. And like, I love the idea of getting to in this realm and this way with these two characters together and live action on our television screens, get those answers. That just feels like an incredible gift that. might be in store for us. I just like, I really, I really am so excited. Do you both think we've

talked about Lord of the Rings a lot today? Joe, you just read a beautiful passage. We talked about the Mount Doom comp earlier. We had some other moments where you said I'm not allowed to ever say Loader again, et cetera. It's come up a lot. Ben Wean. Are you allowed to say Loader for L-O-T-R? Yes. I've actually fined with that. Sorry. Wow. I make the rules. So he won't. He won't. Let us say Pelly, but we can say Loder. Terrible. Great stuff.

Yeah, I may be asked you this before. I remember now you betrayed me before. I have spoken. Yeah. Is this, because we know how Faloni feels about Lord of the Rings, we know that, you know, he's got these sketches on his Instagram of Asoka and Gandalf. We know how he feels about Gandalf and those comps between the characters. Like, is this Asoka's Gandh-Balrog trial and the path to emerging?

Maybe not literally in one episode, but as a result of what is unfolding here in the Asoka the White phase that we thought we were in an animation but are not in live action. I'm so glad you asked, I have a passage. Love it. Gantel says, long time I fell, long I fell and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death almost.

it froze my heart. Yet, it has a bottom beyond light and knowledge. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he's a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake. Pause. For me, Joanna to pause at that, while Baylon is the one that, like, push her in it, like, you can't tempted to say that Baylon is the ballrog. I actually think it's her inner demons that are her ballrog that she's wrestling with, right? So, Joe, when we were talking earlier about why grab the map instead of saber, it's like there's the fire. Touching the fire. Love it. Genulf says, we fought far under the living. earth where time is not counted. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. I threw down my enemy and he fell from the high place and broke the

mountainside where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me and I strayed out of thought and time and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell I was alone forgotten without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay, staring upward, will The stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as the life age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumor of all lands, the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow, everlasting groan of overburdened stone. There's just like a lot of imagery in here of like, yeah, shout out, shout out talking. There's a lot of, like, beautiful, like, ILA staring upward while the stars, oh, no. while the stars wheeled over it.

You know, like, we see... This is what this is. This is what this is. Yeah. Yes. 100%. Yeah. It's got to be a transformative moment for her and experience.

I don't know whether there will be a wardrobe change while she's in here. I heard the acid in a pearl stomach will bleach your clothing. She will turn a great cloak weight. Yes, every time. But even if it's not that direct, there's got to be a change. In fact, I've actually... been wondering whether that very restrained composed performance that we've seen from Rosario Dawson thus far with Asoka, which makes total sense when you think about everything she's

been through. But I wonder whether we'll see some of that weight lifted after whatever she sees here, whatever Anakin shows her, not that she's going to go back to happy go lucky snips Asoka, but will we see, I guess, a little less somber just because whatever weight, whatever guilt she's carrying here about not being able to save Anakin, that at least might be lifted from her, right? Like, that's the best thing that Anakin could do for her here, right? As agonizing as it might be for her to see scenes of, I don't know, slaughtering younglings or whatever agonizing glimpses we're going to get here of his descent or his time as Vader, ultimately it will come down to the same sort of conversation as Canaan. One would think you can't save Canaan,

because then you will cease to exist and your friends will cease to exist. You can't save me either. You can't stop me from becoming Vader because actually I was the chosen one all along. And you never could. And you walking away from me, you walking away from the order and you walk away from me is not what did it. You know what I mean? It was not your fault. It's not your fault.

I'm asking you to let go. Right. Yes. Yes. And she's like, goodwill hunting ass like, Sean, don't fuck with me. And he's like, it's not your fault. Right? It's not your fault, Will.

Oh, man. I would love that, actually. The other thing is that because he says he wasn't expecting her so soon, does that support the Pergill theory? Or at least this is sort of a way station. This is a passing phase as she's falling. It doesn't even seem like that far a fall. It doesn't seem like she should die from that. She didn't get stabbed.

But putting that aside for a second. There's wrongs right there. There are rocks, but can't she force land gently? I don't know. Anyway, if he's saying that that he wasn't expecting her so soon, that sort of makes me think he didn't necessarily reach out to grab her. But also, it's kind of the classic, it's not your time, right? It's too soon for you. You have to turn back and return to the living.

Yeah, yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. That line in particular, I think, is really evocative. And I'm really, I didn't expect to see you so soon. But he says it so like sort of cheerfully that I don't think he would say if he's like, oh, no, you're dead. You know what I mean?

Yeah, maybe he just meant I thought you would die old and that's what I would see you next, that you would just become one with the force when you lived a nice, happy long life, who knows. But I was wondering because some people have speculated about is this going to be not just the world between worlds, but the world between galaxies, right? Is this going to be the pathway to Peridia for Asop. Can she just open up a portal? Can Anakin show her how to get to Ezra? And that would seem to violate what Faloni said, right? I agree. You kind of have to go back in where you...

He could change his mind, certainly, but that would... Yeah, I mean... He's got to go... He retconned the epilogue of rebels already, right, with the cloak color. But unless she's going to miraculously show up in that scene exiting the portal with the white cloak, I don't know. But yes, I think that would be sort of... She'll return at the reflex point. She'll find Hera and Jason.

They'll go talk to the pergles, including the one... She'll be like, Jason, I heard you had a bad feeling. Let's channel that into some animal bonding. I have... We've got an Uber to catch. One 12th of a star map burned into my glove. I still smell like a pergill, so they will flock to me. I reek a pergill.

This is coded. Positively coded. Yeah. It's ripping this too. It's very much like the cave on Dagaba, right? Yeah. Yeah. You bring in, right?

You see what you bring in with you. And the visions are tailored to you. And it may be just as... And again, like, we have precedent for this with Asoka and Anakin, with a shot of darkness and rebels in a gem, not in the world between worlds, but in a Jedi Temple, where we have these connections to the world between worlds. And, like, her...

This manifestation... of Anakin as she like processes her as her feelings. First of all, I love a therapy episode. Secondly, I feel like we talked about this a lot in our prep mal, the idea that Faloni just like loves a Jedi Temple episode. And this is like a Jedi Temple episode-ish sort of thing. Yeah. Do you think this will be a World Between Worlds bottle episode or largely?

I want that to be the case. Yeah. I wonder. Because I guess there's not that much else. going on, we don't necessarily need to check in with Hera right away. The Eye of Cyan is making its merry way to the other galaxy, so we could spend the whole episode in there. I mean, some people would probably be confused about where they are and what's happening, but we would love it.

I'd be thrilled. I would be thrilled. Just as I'm thrilled to talk to both of you about this wonderful episode of television. Any other thoughts on the World Between Worlds? Snips. Vader's theme? Only that I will be watching. the next episode in theaters, and I could not be more excited to see a Star Wars. In theory.

Yeah, right. It is nice. It's very nice. Yeah. Wait, make your pun. Make your joke. Oh, yeah. I'm going to be taking a flight on the IMAX of Zion.

That's my joke. Thank you for setting it up. Sorry. That was not a very graceful way to set up. Tell your joke, Ben. It wasn't. No. Sorry.

Good. The comedy duo of Robinson Lindberg are not hitting the road any time soon. Benjamin. Okay, Joe, rapid fire to wrap. Still 75% original parts. Easter eggs. Do you have a favorite Easter egg from this episode of television? It has to be Steve Rogers' little photo of Peggy.

No, I'm just kidding. It's got to be Harris' photo of Canaan on her dashboard of the ghost. This dashboard photo has set the internet on fire, and rightly so. This is a short Easter egg segment. today because that's the pick. That's it. That's it. Wigwatch with Joanna Robinson. Trademark. Do you wear wigs? I'm seating wigwatch to one of our listeners, Emily, who wrote in. Thank you. My roommate calls shin, fuck-ass Bob. Shout out wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson TM. I do prefer honeycriss apples, but I agree with Joe that pie is gross. I'm an interior architect and ready to design your bookshop. Just say the word.

I mean, family. I've saved this email, by the way. I've started a little like sub mailbox that's about designing our, if you've never heard the phrase fuckass bob, which is one of my favorite phrases of 2023, I would ask you to Google it. But a fuckass bob, you have to have a lot of confidence and attitude to pull off a fuckass bob. And that is what our queen of house haughty has. But Todd, I want to try. Choker to death. Oh, I didn't say this. Okay, quick, baby. Quick sidebar. We're almost done. I swear to God. But quick sidebar. I didn't do this. I didn't subject Ben to this. But we did get email from Lizen. And I just need to mention this. Lizin let me know that Raylo fan fiction. I didn't know this because I don't read Raylo fan fiction. But Kylo Ren, Ray fan fiction is full of stories about the world between worlds. And Ray using the world between worlds to like fuck Ben solo a lot now that he's dead. I do.

didn't know that, but apparently it's a whole thing. So I'm just delighted to know. And then I've also learned on the fandom front, I've also learned this last week, that there is a ship of Asoka, a relationship ship called Shin Bean, which is Shin Hadi and Sabine, set a fire with the image of Shin. you know, pulling Sabine onto the ship via her handcuffs in this episode. Just thought I'd share this information with you, our listeners. Wow.

No notes. No notes. No notes. Next. No notes. Boy, preferring honey crisp, but thinking pie is gross was a real journey. That's a bend-do moment, I think. It's really just straddling the line, you know what I mean?

Real journey. If this show had Netflix subtitles What are you at Joe? I just want to say we got to like slightly off this version of this in an email but I just want this email to know I already had this in my notes and it's this. I felt a great disturbance in the force as if millions of Merrick fan theory suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. That's my caption. Incredible.

Mine is same idea. Less poetic. A little more gastro and intestinally inclined. Faceless former inquisitor farts out theory corner and plume of screaming, screaming, smoke. Green gas descending, hopefully not wetly. I found out this week that Neil Miller does not listen to House of Art because he tried to educate me on trial by content about the Netflix captions on Stranger Things and I was like, oh, I have heard of them, Neil, thank you so much for letting me know. That's fine. That's fine.

Neil Miller has a lot of fine qualities. Listening to this podcast is not one of them. Maybe he listens and he just doesn't make it to the three hour mark when we hit that segment. That's possible. That's possible. What is our final corner today? We have a new segment today. It is called

We are here To discuss our past With apologies to Asoka who would prefer not to How many days since See, that's what I like about you, Mando That big smile of yours Let you get away with anything We set that clock

Oh Steve, you have outdone yourself Can we hear that again? Yeah, I want to hear it again Play it again Just for the record, it's labeled on my soundboard as Cobb Cat Countdown I'm a good

Just again, no notes. See, that's what I like about you, Mando. That big smile of yours lets you get away with anything. We set that clock. Holy shit. Extraordinary. Where can I submit you for a Webby? Oh, my God.

I'm making it my ringtone. Okay. Holy hell. That was sensational. And if you can't tell, this is where we will be tracking. How many days it has been since we have seen, Joanna? It has been 576 days. since we have seen Cobb Vamp.

Mallory? 17 days since we have seen Sabine's Loathcat. 17. Segment over. That's it. That's a wrap. We did it. We made a podcast.

We have no power, which is why today's episode is ending before the six-hour mark. That was what we wanted. But alas, here we are. Under four, somehow. Honestly, miraculous. I am frankly astounded. Stun. Shut.

Somehow not the longest pod we've ever done. I can't believe it. Thank you to our favorite force-wielders, Steve Allman, for producing this episode and for the genuine gift of that new segment sound design. That was incredible. Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode.

Head back into the ringerverse next Wednesday for the Midnight Boys. reaction to Asoka part five, we will be back here on the new House of our feed next Tuesday for our droid's draft. And next Friday for our deep dive into the fifth episode of Asoka. Until next time, remember, stay together. You always did better that way. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th. The powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th

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