House of R - 'Ahsoka' Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 16, 2023

Live or die. Or join Mal and Joanna as they dive deep into the fifth episode of 'Ahsoka' (07:12). They give their expert analysis on this riveting episode of the ‘Star Wars’ series, which is emotional and uplifting (16:14). Later, Ben joins once again to discuss the history of Force powers used in this episode (03:06:07). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili, and hosts of What About Your Friends? A podcast dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed, I talk to my best friend Stephen Othello and your favorites from within the ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed where we try to answer the question TLC asks back in the day, what about your friends? The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with fan duels. With Fandul PREDICT. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus.

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to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet advanced wi-fi phone tv mobile services plus 24-7 u.s based support millions of business owners already trust spectrum business so visit spectrum dot com slash business to learn more restrictions apply services not available in all areas you're a warrior now as i trained you to be is that all Osoka, within you will be everything I am. All the knowledge I possess, just as I inherited knowledge from my master and he from his. You are part of legacy.

But my part of that legacy is one of death and war. But you're more than that. Because I'm more than that. You are more Anakin. But more powerful and dangerous than anyone realized. Is that what this is about? If I am everything you are You've learned nothing

Don't say that Back to the beginning I gave you a choice Live or die Incorrect And welcome To House of R A Ringerverse podcast

On the Ringer Podcasts network I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only Back to the World Between Worlds But also to our new House of our podcast feed. Joining me today, reminding me that one is never too old to pod.

It's my house of our permanent title. Co-host, Joanna Robinson. What's up, bad babies? Bad baby. I'm just sticking with it. I don't know. Wow. What a time.

What a time to be alive and get to pod with you, Mallory Rubin. I know. I'm so excited for today. I feel like I'm going to just be a complete mess the entire time. And I will be here. I hear for you. We hear for you, Mallory. Yes.

Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Greg. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Joe, we are here today to dive a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Into the fifth episode. Is that you? you doing the world between morals echo on your own words.

Please please do that throughout. Before we plummet. A little Canadian accent coming through right there for you already. Good stuff. Before we plummet, Joe, into the purple and orange haze. Some quick programming reminders. Content of plenty everywhere you look. House of our twice a week.

follow the new feed. Give us those five stars. We love them. Keep them coming. And then head back on Tuesday for our next episode because we'll be with you again at the top of next week. We are doing an Asoka and Star Wars mailback. A lot of questions already in. Always room for more, probably. We got a lot of emails this week, which I asked for.

So thank you for sending them. Can't wait. So excited. And then, of course, we'll be back next Friday for our deep dive into Asoka. Part six cannot believe we are already about to talk about part six. I'll just try to focus on talking about part five before I start thinking about how close we are to the end. What's wrong with me? Three episodes to come.

Not enough. Sad. Over on the Ring ofverse. Ben Limburg will be with you on Monday for a special Foundation Season 2 check in. Ben has watched Season 2 a foundation. He is excited to pot. Pop over. On Wednesday, the midnight boys,

Poo, pew, pew, p, p, p, we'll have their instant reaction to Asoka episode six. Might be Tuesday night. Who could say exactly? Keep your eye on the pod feed. Might be getting that one a little sooner than usual. And then on Friday, Ben and Jess will have a new episode of button mash.

They're talking Mortal Kombat. They're catching up on everything in the video game world before the big release bonanza coming in October. Joanna, that's a lot. How can everyone follow? Oh, well, listen, if you wanted to just subscribe to House of R and the Ringervaverse, that would be a good place to start. I would consider doing that just efficiently, you know. If you want to follow us on social at Ringerverse on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, we've got some Facebook groups going.

Like, that's a lot of great intel, a lot of great memeage from Jomey. you can further ensure that Mallory loses the droid draft that we had earlier this week, you know, whatever you decided you want to do. Polling is close. Van has won. We congratulate him on his victory. Congratulations, Van, for absolutely decimating the competition. And you can email us, Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com. As I mentioned, we did get a ton of Asoki emails. We will be reading a few in this and then saving a lot for the mailbag that we're. we're doing next week. If you have bigger, like, let's do a call for, like, bigger picture Star Wars, like non-Asoka-specific,

bigger picture Star Wars questions so we can make it like an Asoka slash Star Wars mailbag. I think that might be fun to do as well. So hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Send your Cobb Van Thin queries. Where is he? Send your look at queries. Last programming reminder, it's the same as always. It's your friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning.

Today's podcast will feature plot details from the episode of television that we are here to discuss the fifth episode of Osoka. We will also be talking about everything that's happened in Asoka so far and everything that's happened in Star Wars ever. Ever. If it's happened in Star Wars, it's on the table today. That's the spoiler warning. Okay.

It's time to live or die. Let's dive in. Asoka Part 5, Shadow Warrior, written by Dave Filoni, directed by Dave Filoni, a robust 52 minutes released in select movie theaters for a fan event screening. This title, in addition to being the name of a Kurosawa film, might sound familiar to Star Wars fans because it is also the name of a Clone Wars episode, season four, episode four, was also called Shadow Warrior. and the epigraph of that episode of Clone Wars is who a person truly is cannot be seen with the eye. Certainly would be an appropriate epigraph for this episode of television as well. So before we get to our beat by beat, line by line, look by look, deep dive, let's start as we always do with the opening snapshot, Joanna Robinson, your quick overall thoughts on Shadow Warrior.

You know, we talked about this when you and I watched the double premiere together at a we were lucky enough to go to a screening. And I was saying just like how much it enhanced my experience getting to like sit next to you in that room with a bunch of Star Wars fans. And so I couldn't help but think that when I watched this video, when I watched this episode, unfortunately in the Departures Lounge of the Oakland Airport on my iPad, it was not the most rousing place I could have seen it. I could not.

I had a flight. I couldn't move it. This all came together sort of late the fans. screening. I found out that I could have gone to the Emmerville screening, but I had a flight that I couldn't miss. So unfortunately, I did not get to do the theater opportunity. But even on my, you know, smudged iPad with the glare of the sun coming in through the windows and stuff like that, I could tell it was a beautiful episode. And so I was like envious of not getting to see it on the big screen because I could see that it was like so beautiful. But also, I just really wish that I had been

there either with you or with, you know, the Bay Area fans to like feel the excitement because when I, when I finished and our pal Ben Lindbergh also did not manage to go to a screening event as well. He got line. Couldn't get in. Couldn't get in. Couldn't get in. The line round the block. Line round block. So Ben and I were like texting back and forth like our reactions, which were a bit less bullion than the people who I think who had seen it in the theaters because we had a lot of questions. And I think a lot of those questions, I was, I will say this, I was like a little worried because I know that you were like, a event of my lifetime, never seen anything more

important or more emotional or whatever. And I was like, oh, no, it was going to be one of those things where like, I like did the one emoji convey all that? I was like, but I knew. Wow, powerful emoji. I knew, right? And so I was like, is the gap between our experience is going to be so wide that we won't be able to be on the same page? But I was able to watch the episode again under more favorable circumstances and the more I thought about it, the more I really, really like enjoyed the ambiguities and some of the questions. And then when I was reading your notes this morning, I was like, oh, she has a lot of the same questions I do about some things. And so it's like, it's not like you're like 10-10 notes, no notes, few notes, but the highs are so high that the

notes kind of fall away. And I really feel like if I had seen it in the theater and especially if I had seen in the theater next to you, those notes and questions and whatever that I had would not would not stand a chance next to the roar of the like emotional enthusiasm. And on that note, I just want to say adventures, you know, are better experience together, right?

They must be shared. So I just want to shout out. We got a really lovely email from one of our listeners, Holly, who just really recently moved to Brisbane in Australia and like was just talking about how she has none of her like usual nerd people to talk to about something like this.

And so she values the podcast because then she can feel connected. So I just want to shout out. If we have any listeners in Brisbane who are like looking for other cool people to talk to, Hobbiton dragons and Gemma. I'm like, I was like moved to play listener matchmaker. So if you are in and around Brisbane, I would like Holly to feel like she has people she can hang out with and talk to about Star Wars while still also listening to us for nine hours a week or however much we take. Anyway, those are my rambling overall nine hours a week.

My God. Steve's heart just plummeted. He's like, wait a minute. It was only one hour of 56 minutes so far this week. So that doesn't vote well for today. Okay. That's so beautiful. Five hours a week. Or so four, between three and five. Mallory, it's a range. Will you give me your quick overall thoughts beyond one single emoji? I'd be delighted to. I would be delighted to. And thank you for sharing yours. I missed you dearly. I missed.

I guess your husband is a fine replacement for me. I missed gripping your arm. I missed leaning in and like nuzzling your earlobe with your chuckling together and like pointing at the screen and gasping. It was really cool to see this with a crowd. And it's certainly given the volume of nostalgia at play, those like shared little moments. It's always special when you get to share a story you love with people you love and I missed you terribly. And we should watch this episode together one day.

Nothing stopping us from doing it in the future. Yeah. I, perhaps is a surprise to you to learn that I did not think this was a perfect episode of television. I definitely have. I am surprised. Yeah. I definitely have some thoughts and some. questions, though I thought it was exquisite and extraordinary. And I think that there's a

room for all of that in my heart and in my mind. The emotional experience of watching this hour of TV was like kind of unbelievable. I think that there's a chance that by the time I die, I guess it depends on when I die. By the time I die, like I will maybe have watched this more than any other installment of Star Wars. So yes, I have some questions. Yes, I have some thoughts. But it was just, it was really meaningful and I loved it. And I feel glad and grateful that we got to experience it.

And I think that the questions that we have are ones that come from and ultimately like amplify and reinforce why it's a special episode for a lot of people. The depth of our devotion to the characters, like the examples. like the extent to which we care about the journeys they've shared, the paths they've forged on their own, what the past is, what the future is, where those things are entwined in a way that feels impossible to entangle for them and where there's like an opportunity to go do something new, how that's specific to these people and these arcs

and how that taps into some larger question and possibility about Star Wars as a whole. This episode made me think about so many things as a Star Wars fan that I was just like glad for the opportunity to convince. consider. And I really like when we get a new piece of Star Wars that, like, allows us to spend time in that space. And, you know, I don't think it's a secret that Asoka and Anakin, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a one A, one B tie with Anakin and Obi-1 is like the two relationships in Star Wars that I care the most about. And I'm the most invested in. So this was just like a very special thing to get to be back with them. And we'll talk about what exactly them means.

and what we think we're seeing and what that means. What is with? Exactly. What does every word in every sentence that we're going to utter today mean? Every time I've rewatched this, I've enjoyed it even more. This was an interesting, you know, we always go like very deep on our research and our prep and our notes. And like the number of prior moments in Star Wars that Amy line from this episode that I

wrote down, like sent me into a more reconsidering it and drawing up was kind of a It's, like, difficult for me to think of too many other things that have reached that scale. Again, Steve doesn't bode well for our runtime today, buddy. But I think that's, like, really, again, like, just captures how rewarding it was as a lover of these characters and a fan of Star Wars to get to spend time in this space with these people thinking about these things, asking these questions, thinking about the future, where we've gone, where we're going next. I loved it. about one and three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Or the haunting hoot of a pergill. Ooh. Yeah. This is why you're you. So we are going to go chronologically through the episode, which means that we will be moving through the Anakin Asoka of bounty, but also through these. interstitials. Spoiler. That's one of my notes

on the episode. Real big note that I have. Yeah. So every time you're like annoyed that we're cutting away from talking about Assoca and Anakin, I will also be annoyed that we're cutting away. It's a better commentary on the experience of watching this 52-minute program.

Let's start with the search party on Citos. We open on an eerily quiet and calm Citos. We're panning these crows. Cranberry tree tops. The waves are crashing. The severed star map is lying in weight. And Heronko have landed at the reflex point and there doesn't seem to be anyone there. And then we hear a sound in the camera pans around a standing rock and we see our guy Hu Yang,

who may or may not have been on the winning droid draft team. And he's looking down, sadly, at Sabine's helmet in his hands. He's also sad that Sabine's helmet is back in play. He, like me, was like, oh, good, we don't have to put a helmet on the character again. He's like, oh, no. You know what it gave me strong vibes of? Tell me. Well, because we know that Huying's there somewhere, right?

And so, like, I thought the reveal, because I was like, oh, he must be, like, in the back in the woods somewhere, you know, like, near the ship or whatever. So, like, the reveal around the corner and he's just, like, standing there, like, at the edge of the cliff. I thought was so sad and beautiful. And it reminded me of, we've never talked about the never-ending story. I don't know how much of a place it holds in your heart, but I imagine a pretty large one. You know, when the rock fighter is like they look like big, good, strong hands, don't they?

I always thought this is what they were. He's just like mourning the fact that he couldn't, like, save his friends and family against the nothing. And that's what, like, Kuiang looked like to me, holding the helm. it, you know, and he says, like, I told him to stick together, right? They, um, and he's just sort of like, I couldn't stop it. I could, you know, they look like my, my strategic brain looks like a good, strong strategic brain, good enough to win a droid draft, doesn't it? But I couldn't stop this.

Man, the, I love that comparison. Now it makes me want to watch not only never ending story, but then the never, the stranger thing scenes where Dustin is thinking about or seeing. If we ever do a House of Reeds book club, we should read the never-ending story book because it's one of my favorite books of all time. And I think a lot of people love that movie, but I've never read the book and the book is really good. Steve, put it in the Google Buck. I love that. The, they never listen. The way that this character, Hu Yang, now he's given us some wisdom. He's given us some sage counsel so far, but he's been this like snarky, zippy comedy factory. And like this,

the heaviness of this despair and lament from Hu Yang was such a somber opening note for this episode and like the weight of that word never. I mean, of course, it's one more moment where we are pointing to, the show is pointing to everything that has gone wrong in the past between Assoca and Sabine, much of which we have still not actually directly seen. And we're thinking about his words to them. His like parting plea stay together. You always did better that way last week. But I think part of what makes it such an effective opening note for this episode is that

it doesn't just apply to them. Like it's in our minds when we're watching Anakin and Assoca when we're thinking about that long line of non-traditional Jedi, that lineage that they're part of it how many pairings inside of it that they never listen idea applies to. For me, what pinged off of that was something that I don't think we've really underlined for maybe folks who haven't watched the Clone Wars is that, like, Huiying's role was with the young Padawans teaching them how to assemble their lightsaber and giving them instruction in the same time. So he had sage wisdom to give to these tiny, and they're so cute when you watch

that episode, like, there's a tiny little wookie, and there's just like, you know, they're so tiny. And that idea of they're so young will come back and hit us hard when we see young Asoka in the middle of a battlefield. But the idea that, like, when Hu Yang is thinking about all the Jedi that have been lost, as many people who survived the Clone Wars but knew the Jedi are, he's thinking, of kids because he met them all as kids. And so that's just like even tougher, like that the, you know, that the worst of them were once innocent, eager children putting together their first lightsaber with him, you know. It's heartbreaking.

And I think that his, it's a great call because, like, his role as this historian, as this maintainer and then conveyor of history. and lore and information, like for us as viewers, but also for the characters in the world, it puts him firmly in our, like, a realm that we associate with the past history lessons, things you pass down. But in Asoka, in the show that we're watching now,

he's really been one of the primary voices pushing us and the characters to think about the future, right? Like if we think back to episode two, when Sabine said that she couldn't train if Assoca didn't want to teach, teacher, Puyang said, that's an excuse in a poor one. And that was when she said, hey, she quit on me and that. And then his response was, the past, as the past moved forward. So he's trying to encourage that impulse, as hard as it might be. And then you open with the guy who's been saying that, the droid

who's been saying that, the teacher, the leader who's been saying that, the keeper of wisdom who's been saying that. And he's basically on the last page of Great Gatsby. Like, so we beat on votes against the current, born back ceaselessly. in the past. Like it feels inescapable even for him here. Everybody is pulled back into it. And it was just a perfect opening note for the episode. Wow. Have you never been more my English, you know, my English major friend? We just want to row toward the green light, Joe. We just want to quote the ending of Great Gatsby forever. I love it. Have I told you before that when I was prepping for my AP lit exam, I was like, as long as I'm ready to go on Gatsby and Lord of the Flies, I'll be fine. Like anything that comes up. I had a handful of other things I was very prepared for, but I was like, Gatsby, Lord of the Flies, will be ready to roll.

Yeah. That sounds about right. Let's get catcher in the rye in there. Let's get to kill a mockingbird in there. Let's have a few other things on the list. Let's get some ponies on the list. Yeah. Little Tony Morrison,

then we're good to go. Love it. Joanna. We got the title of this episode. You have the title of this television program. And then we get a wide shot back in the world between worlds. Anakin on the left,

Assoc on the right. We're obviously going to hit every single thing that we hear in these scenes and these sequences, but we wanted to start with a couple big picture topics pan back out, just like the shot does,

before we zoom in. I would like to begin with Hayden Christensen. Avianna! Oh, wow. Tell me about the experience for you of watching Hayden in this episode. That feels like record time

for have you heard of I was thinking a lot when we saw the premiere, and we were at Lucas Home, we were talking to some folks at Lucasfilm about Hayden specifically, and about, like, we brought it up, but they were eager to talk about it, about, like, you know, some of the people who work at Lucasfilm were there for the prequel tour

and knowing, like, what Hayden, the hell that Hayden Christian went through as a very young man, all the hate that he got for the prequels. It is something that you and I have talked about before on and off pod of his various recent appearances at Star Wars celebrations and how overcome with emotion he has been to see the generation of kids who grew up on the pre-pals and love them come and cheer for him and how he is like literally as a grown-ass adult man, a father of a daughter, etc., etc., cried on stage to like heal this, you know, this wound. And so to get to see him do this and how everyone, including a prequel hater like me, is like this ruled, I'm so happy for him. I don't know him, but personally, I am so happy for him, Hayden Christensen. I am a prequel hater, and I am also very famously someone who is resistant to Lucasum's over-reliance on. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader in general.

Like, I don't... One of my most unpopular Star Wars opinions is I don't think Darth Vader belongs in Rogue One. However... It's a astonishing take. Yep. I love you. My most scorching hot,

burn you with a red flame of my lightsaber take. Because I feel like in Rogue One, we don't learn anything from Vader being there. So Vader just feels very, like, member in Rogue One? And I feel like oftentimes when they go to Vader, it is not to give us greater depth than the character. I even feel like a couple times in Obi-One that was the case as well. Not every time, but a couple times.

But this example and all the work that they did with Clone Wars, and we've talked about that a lot, how Clone Wars is so essential for deepening or understanding of who Anakin's the Guy Walker was, this felt really crucial to helping us get some clones. on Anakin, ourselves personally, and especially for the character of Asoka. So I was just like, usually a de-aging hater. Usually, oh, let's bring Darth Vader back, hater. Usually like all this sort of stuff. And it worked like a charm on me.

I thought this was wonderful. I thought it was perfect. And Hayden was just, he was so, so good. So, yeah. The de-aging looked incredible. So good. It's amazing. It's a little scary.

I was going to say there's like a, yeah, there's like a little kernel of fear when you see how incredible it looked, thinking about what that might portend for the future. It was really, really emotional and cathartic and moving and just cool and wonderful to see Hayden as Anakin in this time period. Like, to see him get to play the role again, and obviously we got to. that joy around, around Obi-One, as you know, Ed, and he got to share that with fans and celebrate and heal.

This, like the central focus on his performance, his exchange in live action with this crucial person in his life and in his canon who we haven't gotten to see him interact with in live action before. And for Hayden to get to be a part of that and to deliver like these lines

that just not only are they emotional wallups, like they get to the core. You know, I've said some, as you know, I love Revenge of the Sith unapologetically, but like, I've said some quite unkind things about the prequels on pods before and like they're the, it's a good reminder. We talk a lot about like prequel rehab and Faloni's investment in prequel rehab

and like the number of things that we've gotten to like see come back into the fold and back into the story. And this is a person. This is a huge part of his life. And like it's a, it just feels why. I also, I'll say the same thing you said. Do not know Hayden Christensen. Just watched him in a lot of movies over the years.

But it's, I don't know, it just feels like this like precious thing that he's getting to, to do this and enjoy this. And I thought that he was absolutely wonderful. And like seeing him with Asoka across different points in time. I mean, we'll talk about this more later, but getting to see. Heading Christensen's Anakin Skywalker with young Asoka with Snips, like, just knocked me over. It's boldly over. There's also this, like, yeah, it's so beautiful.

And there's also this, like, reclamation of, like, I think about this sometimes, this is a really dumb comparison. But, like, you know, you and I spent years of our lives loving and talking about Game of Thrones. And then Game of Thrones landed the way it did with a lot of people. And then we're like, and obviously, we're talking about House of the Dragon. We're still talking about Game of Thrones. We're going to talk about it today. like we always are thinking about Game of Thrones, but like not in the way I thought we would be always talking about Game with Thrones when it was airing. And so for Hayden, I do not know

Hayden Christensen. The one parissocial, like tiny parissocial thing I know about Hidden Christensen is I saw an Instagram post he did once where he bought his like little daughter, he bought like matching Darth Vader slip-ons like for him like for him and his daughter, like tiny ones for her. And then like adult male-sized ones for him. And I was just sort of like, this idea that he can just be like super proud to have played Darth Vader. I hope he always was. But like, you know, the same idea.

To get to embrace it. A new. Yeah. And I think, um, I think a lot about the acting in the prequels. And we've talked about this before where like someone like you and McGregor is someone who like it just slides off him and it all works and he makes it work. Like, you know, that's just the kind of. kind of performer he is. And then someone who we know to be as talented as Natalie Portman

is, I think, quite stiff in those movies. And so there's no, like, there's no actual barometer for, like, where to point a finger. And maybe it's just, like, absolutely useless to point the finger. But I will say something I have always said, the record, let the record state, is that Hayden Christensen is great and shattered glass. And if you've never seen that film, if you weren't, like, Mallory a journalism major, then, like, you know, maybe you haven't seen shattered glass, but you should. He's great in that. Important film. As you know, I ride hard for life as a house.

I watched like 900 times when I was in high school. You're a lifer. I am a hated lifer. It's true. Are you a jumper, though? Are you, do you follow him there? Anyway, good for Hayden, is the point. Good for Hayden. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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This episode is brought to by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-bought place. They're all jammed inside every can of Nass Energy. energy, high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it. Here's our next big picture, discussion point. Are we actually in the world between worlds? We want to talk about this for a minute because this has been a hotly debated topic here on the Ringer podcast network and the Ringer.com. What a great website this week. I think the fact that this

is open to interpretation and that people might have a different interpretation of it. it is not only completely valid, it's actually something that Dave Faloni would welcome and embrace, which we'll highlight in a second. Yes. I think my contention is that what we are seeing here, while it looks a little bit different

from maybe our primary association from Star Wars Rebels, clearly fits inside of the description of the world between worlds that Dave Faloni has sketched out. Like not as, and Lindberg has written about this in his pieces, He talked about this a bit with us last week on the pod.

But to reiterate it here, now this was so central, not as this gateway-laden realm for time-hopping, but as a space to seek knowledge and insight. So Dave Faloni quotes that are germane in this context. I don't know how real it actually is. I don't want to define that for people anyway. Now, we're going to come back to the real idea in a few minutes. We talk about like what exactly we're seeing with Atticine.

But I really love that. Like the creator of this idea welcoming free interpretation, not the idea that not everything in stories and in pop culture has to be so prescribed for people. And as you know, Joe, I am often a like craver of. Yes. Parameters and guidelines and like tell me how your universe works. And I love, I love the idea that this can be what you want it to be. And that just as like a character looks for what they need there, you can look for what you need there.

I also think it's really smart from a storytelling engineer perspective to not tightly define this so that he can use this storytelling device the way he needs to flexibly in the future. Don't put a year in Spider-in-Spiderman homecoming. Don't do it. You might just don't, etc. Another quote from Faloni, it's more like what the wolf tells Ezra. This is from back in the rebels days, obviously. It's more about knowledge, knowledge that you can use for your benefit of good or knowledge that will lead to destruction. that's what it's about.

And he also cited and like specified across some of his Rebels recon interviews back in the Rebels days that we had seen other versions of the world between worlds earlier in the story that didn't look or function exactly the same way. Like when Ezra receives his chiber crystal, this is something that Philonia specified in Rebel season one. That's the world between worlds. Aser just doesn't know that yet. that when he's conversing with Yoda, that's the world between worlds.

Yoda's just like floating in space. It's just hanging out. Just hanging out. The Filoni Rebels Recon episode 4.7 quote about that, about the Yoda one is, I think, very applicable here. It doesn't have anything to do with the physical. It has to do with kind of where they believe they are and where they are mentally. Because a lot of the discussion of, well, are they actually in the world between worlds?

So centered on the idea of like gateways or portals or access, etc. What is Jason hearing? Is it more likely that they're in a dream and he's dream peeping? a phrase that I'll continue to other, even though I know it absolutely horrifies you, really assess me. Or is you hearing across, you know, through the force across a barrier between different realms, etc. How does this sit with you?

Where are you on this? I have a couple thoughts. We got so, as you might imagine, so many emails about this. But I wanted to shout out a few comps that I think are really interesting. One, and we got a couple people email this, but I'll just call out Sarah, one of our listeners. who pointed out that in Legends of Cora, if you've watched Legends of Cora, that you can physically walk into the spirit realm, but you can also meditate into the spirit realm. So I, in my interpretation, using that sort of lens, my interpretation is that Ezra physically walked into

the world between worlds through a wolf portal in the Rebels episode where he goes in a world between worlds. And it is my belief, but it could go any kind of way, I agree, that because Asoko was halfway between life and death, she's not like actively meditating, but it sort of shunts her into this sort of spirit realm because she is at a crossrobes. And a realm that she's connection to. Yeah, exactly. So she's like meditating, but by meditating, I mean dying her way into this like a spirit realm. And those earlier, like Ezra examples with the Crystal and Yoda,

I mean, he is in the Jedi temple on La Thalda, and so he did go into a Jedi temple. He accessed a space, but like, you could say that's akin to just being on the reflex point here, on Cetus. And when he's having those moments, or when Canaan is seeing the Grand Inquisitor as a Jedi Temple Guard, for example, like those are meditative states, just as when

Asoka, and we'll talk about this specific moment later in different contexts, sees a mission of Vatican Skywalker, we heard of him a lot. So I think that's a great call out. And there are a lot of things we could point to I'm glad you mentioned Quora because I just want to tell you that when Anakin did the prequel lightsaber, Coral. I shouted, do the thing, Julie.

That was such a like, do the thing, Julie. Oh, my God. Do the thing. Eric, I miss him. Okay. Great show. Two more that we got, just highlighting how common and global this concept of like in-between spaces. We got, okay.

Yes. We got a really long, like, I think last week got a really long. long, really interesting email about the idea of liminal spaces, which is something we've talked about in the story, but it was like an in-between space, the storytelling. We're going to do that one on the mailbag episode. It's too long for us to get into now. We're going to get into that next week. But these are two specific examples of liminal spaces I thought was interesting. Danny wrote in about if this was the Star Wars equivalent of Catholic purgatory and that that makes perfect sense for Anakin Skywalker. And Danny wrote in one of my Christian theology courses,

I took an undergrad. My professor explained purgatory as this limbo space where souls go if they're not good enough for heaven nor evil enough for hell. It's true that Anakin slash Darth Vader has done some horrible monstrous things, but he's also done a little bit of good. His final act of sacrifice to protect his son from, I'll be anyone. But what makes purgatory interesting is that a soul can escape it per theological teachings. I remember my professor emphasizing this, shout out Dr. B. If a soul ends up in hell, that's it, goodbye forever.

But if the universe slash God slash the force judges a soul to purgatory, that means salvation slash heaven is still possible, Star Wars pulls heavily on Christian imagery, and seeing their version of purgatory may be excited because this could mean, and let's be honest, what I care about the most, more Hayden via purgatory Anakin moments. So I thought that was interesting. This idea, specifically of this depiction of Anakin, who will talk about the complicated factors of that, as like not a forced ghost in the sense that we've seen Yoda and Obi-Wan, but someone in an in-between space that seems more appropriate for an Anakin Skywalker. I mean, plenty of people can disagree, and I think a lot of people like the idea of

Anakin as a forest ghost because, like, you know, high M-Count, he's a chosen one, and his final act of sacrifice was so important that, like, it just bumped him up the, you know, into the good place, but I don't know, does he have the points to get into the good place? It's a question. Okay. And then as low as I am now to bring up one of our own. favorite TV shows of all time lost in such close proximity to the word purgatory, I'm about to do it.

Okay. It's brave. Let's do it. I love it. They're not in purgatory and lost, just in case someone has lied to you and told you that that was the truth. But we got a little listener, Camila, who said that her partner remarked about the world between worlds, that sounds like the bardo, the liminal space between death and rebirth

for Tibetan Buddhists, a state of consciousness in which humans can access all knowledge. past, present, and even future, all spiritual awareness of the lessons you learn in your life and where you prepare for the next step of spiritual growth. This week, he remarked that the bardo is often depicted in Tibetan religious books as hazy, misty, dreamlike, and having several layers, levels in which you get to examine and reexamine lessons of this incarnation. The bardo can also be accessed by the living through profound states of meditation. Definitely sounds familiar.

So I just want to say, the bardo, the Tibetan country. concept of the bardo is very specifically what the writers on lost were engaging with in some of the storylines on that show. This idea of like, you have to re-experience your own life and make certain decisions in order to, you mentioned this last week, this idea that we were certain that Assoca was going to be tested somehow, that there was going to be some sort of test she has to pass, some sort of new level of enlightenment she has to reach in order to get out of this thing alive. And so I like the concept of purgatory, especially as we think about it against Guywarker. But I think I even more like this concept of the of the bardo.

And he seems to talk about lost, even tangentially. I will jump on it. So thank you to Camilla and her partner. Beautiful. Beautiful. And then also, okay, so this is another. I'm clumping the emails. I swear we won't have that many.

But this is another one that I thought was really interesting. It's been rattling around on my brain. We're going to talk about Tolkien a lot in this episode. We will? Yeah, just once or twice. Really? Really? Is it going to come up in this pod?

In the long-awaited to soak in the white pod? Really? But we've already talked a lot in some of our prep pods about this, like, what exactly Faloni has done is like, as George Lucas as Padawan, as the inheritor as a steward of this world. And a lot of the concepts that we talked about, you know, for folks who haven't seen the animated shows, Volone is interested in constantly deepening and expanding our ideas, especially of like the force lore. So when we reference like the mortis gods, you might have heard of them a lot this week because there's a lot of mortis gods theories flying around.

The mortis gods are a way to expand the idea of the force into like, you know, a father, a son and a daughter, like a holy trinity of the force. Or there's a character called Bendu, who sort of is neither light side nor a dark side, but just sort of some a balance in the middle. And so, you know, Faloni is constantly thinking and pushing sort of our concepts of this world that Lucas originally established. So Harrison wrote in and said, my introduction to fandom slash fantasy world building were the books of C.S. Lewis.

In college, it took a course on the inklings, which included Lewis and Tolkien. If you don't know, the Inklings is the name of their literary society, C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien were great friends. Harrison writes, in this class, I developed a kind of spectrum of world building that stretches from Tolkien, which is thorough and exhaustive, to Lewis, which is unconcerned and spontaneous. This is Joanna for a second. Tolkien famously hated that C.S. Lewis put a lamp post in his fantasy world because he's like, you can't have Santa Claus in a lamp post in your fantasy world, and C.S. Lou's like, watch me. And it reminds me, and this is still Joanna talking. It reminds me a lot of, like, us talking about,

Dave Polone being like, Anakin, because Skobar doesn't have a Badawan and George Lucas being like, definitely does. I was thinking about that moment so much for so many people watch. Like this is the...

Yeah. He totally does episode for so many Star Wars viewers. But Harrison goes on to make this distinction between Lewis and Tolkien. The two of them had very different motivations for their work and you can really tell

that they thought of their fantasy worlds in different ways. One of the things I love about Star Wars these days is that it feels like we're getting to watch a Tolkien-type builder, Faloni, play in the world of a Lewis-type, Lucas. I think this speaks not only to the amazing work of Faloni, but the generosity of Lucas to allow someone to not only play and develop in the space, but also push against some of the initial building. The generosity of the space just seems to stand in opposition to the belligerence

of other wizarding world builders of our century. So, you know, just thinking of, I've been captivated by this idea of someone who is, like, who builds breath versus death. depth. It's really interesting to me. And I think, I think not everyone loved this episode necessarily as much as some people did, but I do think this, I think the concept of the world between worlds was quite captivating to most people, even if this is the first time that they're officially encountering it, if they haven't watched the animated. So it is just, it gives us hope to expand beyond sort of the sort of like who's next in the Skywalker line, who's next to the skywalker line, who will be light side, who will be dark side, which can be interesting and

fun and compelling. But let's like keep building and keep building and see where we can go, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I love the, I love the Lucas Thelone, Lewis Tolkien comp there. And I think like that gets it. One of the things we talk about a lot with Star Wars, last, last Jedi is going to come up a number of times on today's episode. It's a movie that we love. Steve did a wonderful job of drawing a lot of parallels and connections between this episode of Asoka and Last Jedi on Midnight Boys was just a phenomenal episode of Midnight Boys this week if anybody is not listening to do it.

It is just sensational. Not everybody has to like the same things. That's fine. I think what was sometimes so painful in addition to the just, of course, actively mean-spirited aspects of the bad faith response from certain corners around Last Jedi was the resistance

to the crucial. core premise that you can expand and build and grow, tend that garden, like a thing we always talk about with Tolkien, right? Yeah. Be a creator of worlds without compromising the root of the thing that you love. Like, those do not have to be pursuits that are in conflict with each other. And when you see, like, something,

and Falloni's particular executions might not be for everyone. And that's fine. I'm not interested in convincing people, Chris and Andy, who don't like this, that it's for them. People are allowed not to like this, but that overall impulse

to expand a world to say I'm interested in building and doing more, and this is maybe like in a slightly odd place to make this point because it is such a Skywalker and Skywalker lineage-centric episode,

but like I think your world between world points is a great way to, to a great lens for, for that larger point in a pursuit. We're so excited to like go to a new galaxy someplace we've never been in Star Wars before. And I think that like I think to your point about some arms of the fandom, it feels like a rigidity of like this is what Star Wars meant when I was a kid. So this is what Star Wars always has to mean. And I think what I like about Faloni and again, your mileage certainly may vary.

But what I like about Flonie is that I feel like he gets it. George Lucas feels like he gets it. He feels like, I feel like he gets it. And is like, yes anding, like a good improv person would. Yes and. Not no but. And that's, I mean, that's when I think of the sequel trilogy, I always think, I always feel like Ryan did a yes and off of the Force Awakens. And then JJ did a no, no but, no but, you know?

And it's just like I want to live in a yes and kind of world. I'm with you baby. Yeah. It slips our together. Okay. Steve, you can come too. So that question about what we're seeing with Anakin, which you got added in a couple of those emails

and is obviously also very top of mind watching this episode and has been an active discussion among viewers this week. Is Anakin, quote unquote, real Anakin, in some capacity. Force ghosts, another kind of force rendering, an Anakin from a different moment in time or Asoka's projection of him. For me, and again,

Philoni's saying it. Interpret it as you see fit. For me, this is like clearly Asoka's projection of Anakin, Asoka's version of Anakin. Everything that we're seeing and hearing from Anakin is coming from inside of Asoka and their history and experiences she has lived.

is the force amplifying and heightening that and bolstering some elements of it? Yeah, we're in the world between worlds. But I think that we're seeing Asoka looking inward and working through her own trauma. That's where I am with it. It feels to me like very... But I think that doesn't in any way

sap the impact of it because it feels to me just like very, very much a part of the King's Cross way of like processing. something that you're seeing. Of course, it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real? Like, was that actually some version of Dumbledore standing there? Was it Harry working through everything on his own?

Is it some blending and melding? I think it can be all or any of those things. It's real because of the impact that it has on Asoka here. Actually, I was rereading that passage, and there's even a though the bright mist was descending again line right before that. And I was like, there we go. This is just real Kingscross stuff. I think in general, like this heavy precedent in Star Wars for seeking knowledge, but also facing your fears and projecting your inner doubt into the space in front of you.

like Luke is not actually, Darth Vader is not standing in front of Luke and when he takes it in the helmet cracks open and it's not actually like another Luke, right? It's the thing that Luke is afraid of. What is in there? Well, what is you to tell him only what you take with you? So this feels to me like of a piece with that

and then I think of a piece with this larger storytelling tradition. You know, we talk a lot about caves, right? From Plato onward, I remember when we did the binge episode on empire and talked about Dagaba, thinking a lot about the Joseph Campbell passage from Here With a Thousand Faces about that sort of space. And then I think if we look at that again, not only do you see the connection between something like Luke on Dagaba and Assook

on the world between worlds here, but it fits to me with the interpretation, my knowledge may vary, on this coming from within. And so it happens that if anyone, quote, and so it happens that of anyone in whatever society undertakes for himself the perilous journey into the darkness by descending either intentionally or unintentionally into the crooked lanes of his own spiritual labyrinth. He soon finds himself in a landscape of symbolic figures, any of which may swallow him. So that feels like it is the roadmap for what we're seeing here. What's your read on this? It's close because I do think this is like obviously Asoka inward, in her own mind, her process, you know, it's, it's a magical therapy,

which is my favorite kind of therapy. You know what I mean? She's like seeing what she needs to see in order to learn the lesson that she needs to learn and all of that is coming from her psyche. And the Anakin that she's seeing here looks a certain way because it's her Anakin and all that sort of stuff. There is some stuff, you know, there is the one thing that Anakin says, like I've heard that before, which seems like a reference to an exchange with Luke that she would not have

been present for. Is it possible? That Luke told her about it. Possibly, absolutely. It's possible. Wouldn't that be nice to know if he had told her about that? I would like to know how they met in the first place. But anyway, I feel like it's almost entirely that with little like, I'm thinking even almost as if the force were like strings on an instrument and that like Anakin's presence is sort of like.

like gently plucking some strings to guide it in certain directions. Do you know what I mean? That it's mostly her with like a little bit of his like, you know, his notes, his top notes on it. And that's sort of what it felt like to me, you know? I love that. And I think like we have precedent with these characters for that idea because we've talked about this particular moment actually quite a bit dating back to our two primer pods that we did heading into the season from Rebel Season 2 before Twilight of the Apprentice, before the actual show now. We like to kind of lovingly pick at this moment because it's when Osoka is still like refusing to accept the truth because it's so painful. But I think it's relevant here because she's in the Jedi Temple

on Northall and she sees, she hears Anakin and we see Anakin. And then he becomes Vader. And this is when he's saying, why did you leave? Where were you when I needed you? You've abandoned me. You failed me. You were selfish. You know what I've become.

And these are her own. securities, her own insecurities and her own doubts and her own fear and her own trauma manifesting in an ankin-shaped form. Totally. But it is happening. Where is it happening? Why is it finally happening now? She's in the Jedi Temple.

She is in that force attuned place that maybe puts those strings in reach for somebody to pluck. I think that's a, I love that. What a great way to put it. There is this, you're the best. I've been thinking a lot about music because... Did you recently rewatch Multiverse of Madness? I'm always in my heart in that musical note battle.

But our pal over-scroom crush, Ryan Airy, said this phrase like their song... He was talking about Asoka trying to read Sabine, like what happened with Sabine that we'll talk about later on this episode. He said something about her song in the Force, which is just a phrase I had never heard before. So I was like, is this just like something poetic that Ryan made up or is this just an aspect of the legendarium that I'm not aware of? But it is something that has been coming up in the new High Republic novels.

It is sort of like a newish concept that is being developed in those spaces. This idea of like hearing someone's song in the force, which I think is exquisitely beautiful. And this idea that you might be able to hear certain people. people's songs better if you're more connected to them. You know. Yeah. And in the Asoka novel, that's how the description of Asoka hearing the call of the Six Brothers Kyber crystals previously bled, which she would be terrified of four

churning herny blitz. Singing. Singing. They're like singing. They're not just calling her. They're singing. Singing. Yeah.

Star Wars. Okay. That was great. I had a blast doing that. We're an hour and we haven't actually really talked about anything in the episode. This is going genuinely, I sincerely exactly the way I hoped it would. I'm having the time of my fucking life. Steve, send us proof of life at some point, but we're doing great.

I'm doing great. Oh, I love you, Steve. Pottie. Okay. Let's talk about what they say to each other. Let's get into it. Their voices, like, echo as they speak. and Asoka says, Anakin, you look the same.

You look old, he says. Yeah. And she folds her arms and kind of scoffs and smirks and she says, well, that happens. Now, you might be thinking to yourself listening at home, surely this is one of those lines. They're going to breeze right past because they've got hours of content coming on other stuff. No. Wrong.

This rocked me to my cordial. Joanna, I would love to talk about this for a minute. Yeah. This hit me so hard for, I think, a few different reasons. There's a callback to another very emotional moment with Asoka, which is in Rebels when Asoka and Rex reunite. And he says, you got old. And that's, like, a very special thing at the time because it is a reminder of how much

time we had spent with the characters. And how much... Sorry. Well, what's fun and funny about... that moment is that, like, he is also very old. It's like, you know, when Rob and Ned see each other at the beginning of Game of Thrones, you know what I mean? It's like, you got fat or whatever, but it's just sort of like, we've both, like, time has hit

both of us, my friend, you know? Exactly. And that's a different tone than what is being struck here. This, like, reminder of how not only like what the characters have shared, right, but for us, how we have watched a social. could grow up on our screens. It's just like you don't always get to spend that much of a person's life with them, like a real person or a character, right?

And it was so sad that like Anakin was the same because that was her Anakin and it's the Anakin she needs to work through things with. It's the Anakin who scares her. It's the Anakin who let everyone down, but also the Anakin she loves. but he didn't get to see her grow up. Like they didn't get to grow old together like they should have. And I think about how like,

I'm turning a, I'm getting a year older this weekend, right? Thinking about growing older and age and life and like the people who are there with you. And I, every time we get on a Zoom, I'm always like, here are, How many cups of coffee I've had today? Here's how tired I am. I'm getting so old here.

How many new gray hairs I have since the last time I saw you guys, right? And like, I think people often are programmed to think of growing old as like a weakness or feeling old as like a limitation. And when I watch this, I'm getting really emotional. I felt like we should all be so lucky to get to like have a person we knew and loved when we were young, like say that. us one day, you know? It just was really special, even though it was happening for such a sad reason. I think also, I love your point about, like, he didn't get to watch her grow up. But there's also this idea of, like, because Anakin, Anakin, the one whose face looks like

Hayden Christensen, goes into the suit so young, she is now older than we ever got to see him be, you know? I mean, we saw his, like, humpty-dumpty-head at the end of Returned the Jedi. But, like, and it makes me think of, it makes me think of in Field of Dreams when Ray is talking about his dad, meeting the ghost of his dad and how young he is and how he never got to see him that young. And he was so beaten down by life by the time that, like, Ray got to know him and stuff like that. You know what I mean? So just to like, for her to get to see her Anakin, an Anakin that, yeah, she is scared of. And we will talk about that, but also just so young. The eyes aren't red yet.

The scars aren't there yet. Yeah. It's just all lurking. But to get to remember what had come before. Ugh. Man. We're remembering, but Asoka can't initially. She doesn't remember how she got there.

She doesn't remember what happened. And Anakin says, trust me, you lost. And there were so many. This pot, I think, in part because of volume, but in part because of genuinely the number of things that made us think of other stories. Like there's a lot of other Star Wars that we will be quoting, but we might break our record for other properties that were citing at some point today. The thing that I was thinking of here was Batman Begins. This was very like, why do we fall, Bruce, so that we can learn to pick ourselves up to me. And then like right into Rocket in Guardians 3 because she begins to remember

and Atticant says, that's good. Why? It means you still have a chance, a chance to live. Like it just, I was overwhelmingly thinking of Rocket arriving again in that very Kings Cross-esque space with the white mist and the clouds and the haze. It's not your time. Yeah. And finding himself back with Lila and Teveson floor and he's like consumed by guilt and doubt and shame. I got you. you killed and has to decide, has to make an active decision that he's not ready to die, like that he wants to go back, to face your demons to move forward, to not give a shit, not run away in Guardians Part lands, right? And so that was just all like top of mind.

We have so many different examples. Maybe this will be a trope, tropes course for us one day. Like this is such a rich, a rich technique and a rich sandbox to play in for stories. And like, I think the ones that do it well feel like they are. part of this archetype and part of this tradition, but also like it is like so specific, the version of it that we get to these characters in their lives. We'll talk about Station 11 a little later, but I was thinking a lot about episode 7 of Station 11.

You know what I mean? And this idea of like this idea of a character who's dying and needs to figure something out in order to survive. And so when we get this year, that's good. Why it means you still have a chance, a chance, chance to live? And we're going to get to like my question marks around this like to live to die binary of the lesson later. I have some questions about that. But I like this early setting of stakes of like you have a chance, whatever shit we're going to work through here now, it means you might come out of the water where your corporeal body is.

You know what I mean? You have a chance to live. And we'll talk about the other meanings of live. But like you have a chance to literally live. You're drowning right now. Regrettably you were not yet inside of the pervo belly. will be. Take to talk.

Assoca asked Anakin, what's happening here? What's going on? He says, I'm here to finish your training. It's a little late for that, she replies, to which he says,

one is never too old to learn. Snips. How did this hit you? There's a lot here, once again, in terms of like the idea of unfinished training and how Asoka thinks

about what she has learned and what she is then able to teach. Again, I have some questions a little later on about this sort of like, to live or die as like a lesson she needs to learn. But a lesson that's so clear that she needs to learn this season is her insecurities about her ability to teach. Am I suited for this? We saw her turn down Grogo, who could possibly fucking turn down Grogo? She did.

But she's spun out trying to train Sabine once before. And here she is again feeling quite resistant to her ability to do that. And it comes from – it's so funny because this kind of underlined for me this idea. We see her in Twilight of The Apprentice, like very proudly and very, you know, saying, I am no Jedi. And it seems like a cool, like, defining moment. But it's also like, I never finish. You know what I mean? Like I didn't, I like, and so there's ways to be proud of this.

I'm forging my own path. But there's also like, shit, there's things I don't know. And no one ever taught me. And does, is, am I missing crucial lessons that I need in order to be a teacher now myself? Am I qualified to get my teaching degree? I don't know. Because I did completely my college courses. So, right.

Right. I thought that that was, I mean, him calling her Snips was, man, really emotional for folks who haven't watched the animated snips is an endearment because she was so snippy with him right away as a as a as a preteen so you know to hear hayden call her snips is like but um but yeah i like i liked that it's never too late to learn and yeah like here's your trial here's the end of your training right we're going to do it right now before you drown tick to let's wrap it up speed run oh boy um i like to the endeavor too old i idea as like a quick, subtle, but still powerful and potent rejection of the like long running

you're too old to be trained Jedi horse shit and rigidity, you know, like the embrace of the fact that there isn't a clock on when you can embrace knowledge and possibility and take on this role and forge a new path. Like that's so contrary to how so many masters would have talked to a Padawan at some point in time. And I was thinking of a line that that you've cited on many of our Osoka pods. And it was very top of mind for me here that rebels line from Asoka to Ezra in my experience when you think you understand the force, you realize just how little you know. And like we know that Asoka is probably like this. Asoka is a character who embraces this and believes this. But it's packaged here in this like uncomfortable way. And you know, the

preoccupation with that idea of unfinished training, like from the very first episode of the season when she was talking to Hera about how Anakin never got to finish my training. And then, you know, I walked away from him and the Jedi just like I walked away from Sabine. Like it feels like this cap on what is possible for her future because of a decision she made in the past. And right on the heels of that was when we got that great line, sometimes even the right reasons, have the wrong consequences. is what do we do then? And this like dissonance and uncertainty and conflict,

you know, we've been another thing we've been really tracking throughout pods. And like you hit this back in the preview episodes was a recurring question for Asoka of whether she can trust herself, not just other people, right? Dating back to that Jedi order exodus,

that Clone War season five farewell with Anakin, the counsel doesn't trust me, so how can I trust myself and how we volley back and forth between moments like that, but then telling Luke and Bob Buffett, trust your instincts, and then saying to Sabine last week, like, I have to, which as we talked about then, it's not necessarily the same as saying, yes, I believe this fully. It's I have to talk myself into it every day in a new way.

And that question of like, what didn't she learn? But also, and this was, I think, one of my favorite things about the episode, it's that, but it's also constantly like, what did I learn that might define me. what is in me that I might not be able to escape. And that's, like, so central to some of the other conversations between Anakin and Asoka that we'll talk about later. This was a good table setter for a lot of what the episode will parse. I will say one thing that I am, like, bumping up against a little bit is, like,

I know we already kind of process this, this idea of, like, you may have to learn and and relearn a lesson. I have, I still have a little bit of trouble squaring this very conclusion. Rebirth experience for Asoka with the Asoka that we met in that Book of Bobafed episode from The Desert Comes a Stranger because she seems so at peace with herself in that episode.

And Dave Filoni wrote that episode as well, so I can't even be like, well, someone other than Dave wrote her in that, you know, like Dave has written her in her other live action appearances, but I just have such a, I don't, like I feel like I can track her from the Jedi, the Manilorian episode to hear,

her, like, rejecting Training Groku, her, you know, accosting Morgan being like, you know, where is your master, where is Grand Animal Thrawn? Like, that bridge makes so much sense to me. It's that Book of Bobafet episode in the middle is just kind of like, doesn't she seem like she's playing the role

of just sort of like, I got it all figured out and the future's bright? And that's just like not who she needs to be here in order to have this moment. I think it's a huge part of why at the beginning of the season, like, where, how are these ordered? And we've moved beyond that. And we have, like, definitely more contextual evidence

that establishes the sequence. But yeah, that it is, you know, I guess, I think it's a completely valid point. I guess there's the, in that same episode, there's the moment between Asoka and Dinn where she's got that. Like, you know, it wasn't right for me,

but that doesn't mean it's not right for him idea. and maybe part of her interaction with Luke, and especially because it's Luke, like Anakin's kid, another part of this lineage, not wanting to, like, project all of the doubt and fear and insecurity that is at the heart of everything we're seeing here onto him. But I think you're right.

Frankly, where would it be more likely to manifest than when talking to Luke? Exactly, when she's like, so like your father. And that just seems like, That seems like something that should be after this. At the end of this episode. Without a doubt. We're on the same page. Without a doubt.

Without a doubt. Maybe one day we'll get, you know, just like the rebels club color has changed. Maybe we'll update some wardrobes in the Book of Boba Fett. Oh, boy. Great stuff. Asoka Bites. Takes the bait. I'm here.

Why not? A little gosh, little chat. What's the lesson? she calls him master. He activates his lightsaber, and it's the original blue. And the thrill of seeing that, like in Anakin's hand again,

we talked about before the jolt when you're watching the final season of Clone Wars and you get to that gorgeous closing stretch of Vader picking up Osokosaber and turning it on. And it's this like really harrowing moment of definitive separation and a breach, but also like the possibility

when he ignites it. So all of that was on my mind watching this year. And he says, live or die. This is where we get that, I won't fight you. I've heard that before exchange that you alluded to earlier, where clearly this is about Luke, who says in Return of the Jedi, I will not fight you, father.

Joe, I'm not sure if you know this about Star Wars. Sit down, get ready. Yeah? It's like poetry, it rhymes. What? Yeah. It's like poetry and rhymes. Shock me. Shock me.

My head canon is that Luke told her about this. That's what I'm riding with. It doesn't... Is it possible that it is not that certainly? I like to think that they maybe had a chat. Yeah. The other thing that it evoked for me, though, beyond the Luke Fader Return of the Jedi exchange,

is Osokic telling Anakin and Twilight the Apprentice on Malicorn in the Rebel Season 2 finale, I won't leave you. There's like the rhythm of the lines, I won't fight you, I won't leave you. These four word declarations, like refusals that are born out of devotion.

What was Vader's response, though, to Asoka on Malacor, when she said that, then you will die. So, of course. You said it like that. He didn't go, you will die.

Of course this is the test for her, picking up where that unresolved showdown, which is, pulled out of left off. Which is what one Mallory Rubin exactly wished and hoped for last week. I wanted to ask you about this because you didn't want lightsaber duels. You didn't want to see the fighting.

So how did that aspect work for you? What I didn't want was whoever beats the other person a lightsaber duel, that's the end of the lesson. Do you know what I mean? That's what I didn't want. And I don't think that's what we got. I think we got a I'm not going to fight was the resolution. Because, like, that's, that's, first of all, when they started fighting, I was like, oh, no. I was like, oh, no, it's exactly what I didn't want.

When Anakin, like, glides forward and she ignites her blade and they crash. I was like, I've never felt so fucking alive. But when he does, he does the Obi-Annie spin, you know, and it's just, I was like, this is thrilling. This is, I will admit, this is thrilling. But I think what they- And they're, like, mirrors because he trained her. It made me think so much of Mustafa and Obi-Wan and Anakin. Oh, totally.

or dueling the person who taught you? Like, oh, God. But when they, last week, Faloni so clearly set up all the commentary from Baylon of, like, fighting is the only way you know. So I was like, fighting can't be the way that she gets out of here. And that is exactly what happens. Like, rejecting fighting is how she gets out of there.

That's the setup and the payoff that I wanted. And we get some, like, fun Obi-Anni spin. and like Vader blipping in and out with Anakin moments in between. I was totally fine with it. Okay. All right. We're here at one of our interstitials where we're... Very into it.

Very into it. Oh, look at this. Okay. Twist. Wow. A real-time twist. I love it. You might think let's keep talking about Anakin and Assoca.

I mean, there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now than staying with Anika and Asoka in the world between worlds. That's what I want to be. It's just with them, the two of them, in this cool metaphysical journey we're about to go on instead. I have some bad news for you. We are going to pull you out of that and take you to another scene. In the words of Jason Sundula, I've got a bad feeling about it. Okay, so Jason Sindula, like us, really likes looking at the ocean.

That's the good news. Fellow admirer of an ocean vista. before we talk about this scene and what unfolds here, let's actually talk about the episode structure for a minute and this decision to cut between what we're seeing with Anakin and Asoka and a number of sequences. And this is before we get to, Asoka emerging as Assoca the White and the Pergul,

a number of scenes with Hara, Jason, Chop, Hu Yang, or Guy Carson, looking for characters who we know where they are. How are you feeling about the way this episode restructured. I did not like this at all. With love and respect to Mary Elizabeth Winstead, who I, you know, always want to spend time with, I felt like Jason Sondula was already teeter on the edge of like, precocious child. I'm not sure I want this, you know, but he was like used sparingly enough that it, like, I was like, this is fine. I can, I can hang with this.

The number of times they cut back to them in this episode, I was like, because when the episode starts and hair is there. I'm like, okay, great, we're going to book in, right? Hair is looking for her. And we're going to almost forget that hair is looking for her until a rescue at the end of the episode, right? We're just going to, like, we're going to be so drawn in. What sweet summer children?

We were. Like, 45 fucking straight minutes in the world between worlds, and we're just going to hang there. And that aforementioned Station 11 episode is just all inside. that I like you were talking you were talking about this and you were like texting your slacking about this episode. What could possibly be in it? Or maybe when we were talking to Van on Zoom. Anyway, what could possibly be in it that has people so hyped?

And you said, very astutely, I actually wish the hype were a little quieter on this. Like I wish I was getting nervous. Yeah, temper their expectations. And so I was trying really hard to temper my expectations and like really trying to be like, don't, don't invent. an episode in your head and then compare this to the episode that you invented in your head. But I did invent an episode in my head where they were in the World Between Worlds, the whole episode, and I think it's a better episode of television. So, no, I did not like constantly cutting back to Hera and Jason and Chubb.

Incredible. And then she gets pulled out of the World Between Worlds, like, with like 10, 15 more minutes. I was like, here's my, here's my positive spin on it. And I'm going to use a Malloryism. I'm a glutton. I just wanted more. I thought of Anakin. Two minds.

I'm of one mind, and my one mind says I wanted more of Anakin and Assoca. What we got was so good. I wanted even more. So anything that wasn't that, with maybe the exception of the pergill stuff, I thought the purgall stuff was extraordinary. We'll talk about it. But it could have been in the next episode. You could have started the next episode with it.

And I would have been, I don't, not want it. But like, I just want more of. Hayden and Anakin and these flashbacks and all of that. Yeah, it's a critique of the structure and division of the episode that is ultimately like born from a place of praise. Like the time that we were spending, I mean, we are literally like spending 45 minutes talking about every sentence that they utter to each other in a world between worlds. Like, this is just incredibly rich and dynamic and emotionally rewarding and like intellectually

compelling and any second that we weren't there. I was sad we weren't there. And like, I think I loved everything that we got there. I really think the episode, if we had gotten one more memory and like one more beat of conversation, I think this is in a pantheon tier and kind of an unimpeachable way. So, yeah, it's, I don't, with much love and respect to Jason, who I think is, is great. I love that Jason has the force and wants to be. Forge a light, they were like same, dude. Same my guy. Me too.

Well, what would have preferred one more trip down? Memory portal lane. War for the fog of war, memory passed. While we are up here on the reflex point, however, we do get to hear our guy, Carson Tava, say, they're overdue at HQ, quote, Senator Argana says she can only give us cover for so long. Now, I'm going to assume that you had a similar. reaction to this that I did, which was in order.

Leia, Carson, and Hera are in cahoots. Amazing. Also, genuinely helpful reminder of where we are, Senator Organa in the timeline. And then right on the heels of that, oh no. Do not show me, Leah. Yes.

Like when, not I didn't think there was a chance to what happened here, but like when in this stretch of the Mandoverse are they going to feel like they have to do that or like that's the thing to do. It's scary. You know what? Scary. Don't ever do it, but if you do it, I'm going to need the Fago War filter because that

really helps. Oh, God. I did think it was interesting, too, that Hara was in the, like, we might benefit for people asking a few more questions. Seat that Carson is always the one occupying. Jason interrupts their exchange. hails his mom to the edge of the cliff and says there's something about the water. He can feel it, Joe.

She's impatient at first, but then instructs Carson, hold on, because Jason is so insistent. And he says, don't you hear it. Now, we just talked about how these scenes, we wish there were fewer of these and more scenes with Anakin and Osoka. On the record. I will say, what we get next, I loved. and we're going to listen to a few sound clips in a minute here that helps to show us why. I want to read actually a paragraph.

We often cite Ben's column and point you all toward reading that, which you should do every week, and toward observations he makes. I thought he summed this up very well. I gave short shrift to the non-asoka portions of the episode on Cidos, but I want to shout out one of my favorite moments of the series, the melding of the surf and the lightsaber sound. set to the force theme.

An absolutely sublime sonic demonstration of Yoda's quote about the force being everywhere and Obi-Wan's quote about it binding the galaxy together. And Hara heard the Sabresounds too, another example of Asoka reframing the force as something that doesn't require a high mid-chlorian count to sense in some way. Now, those are beautifully put from Ben. We felt the same way. He gave you a couple examples. Another one came to mind for us.

Steve, can you play us what Jason and Hara are hearing here and then what it made us think of? The waves crashing? No. The lightsabers. What do you see? The island. Life. Death and decay.

That feeds new life. War. Cold. Peace. Violence. And between it all. Balance and energy of force. And inside you.

Inside me. That same force. I love that movie so much. Chills. That is, of course, Ray and Luke discussing and feeling the force in The Last Jedi. And so to get that moment of the sabers and the waves and the score all entwined, all a part of the same thing that we all inhabit together and that any of us can access if we take a moment like Hara does to stop and listen and believe was incredible. I want to – there's a great even we got that I'm saving for the mailback next week, so come back for the mailbag. but it was, I thought a really brilliant point about this idea of like,

Hara, the mother of a force sensitive child and how infrequently we get to see, you know, shout out Shmi, but like the mother of a four sensitive child, having something at all to do with his training, with his growing up and like the difference between a mother and a Jedi master and like the way in which Tara, who is not historically any degree of force sensitive, believes her child here is, you know, with all these men under her command being like, we're on a row of fuel, man. And she's like, yeah, I hear you. Tough shit. Keep flying. Let's go.

I don't know. It made me think of Holdo being like, yeah. I love that. Yeah. Good. Noted. Keep on. Keep it on.

Let's go. great stuff great stuff uh one of the pilots that is instructed to continue scanning Carson we get we get an amusing this is like a clear nod to and wink to the non-rebels viewers the non-animated verse villoniverse viewers of this series when after this and heras the order to go scan again Carson's like what am I saying what just happened and Hu Yang says, Jason has abilities, his father,

Canaan Jaris, of course our hearts leap and sore hearing Canaan's name was a Jedi. And then Carson literally turns into a human version of the shrug emoji.

He shrugs and says, okay, like he could not care less about Canaan or that aspect of their family and then walks away. It was so funny. There was a great meme

going around last week when all we had were like the shots of Anakin and Asoka in the World Between Worlds. And it's like, Anakin, it's like, what is this place? Then Assoca's like, oh, it's a world between worlds as seen in season four episode one of rebels. And then Anakin goes, oh, I don't watch cartoons.

And I kind of be like, this is literally the same thing where Hu Yang's like, Jason's ability, his father's kid in Jarrah's was a Jedi and Carson being like, oh, I don't watch cartoons. Okay, that's nice. I listen to the watch. Yeah. I don't watch cartoons. Oh, boy. We shift back to the World Between Worlds, Joe. I'm great news.

I've got great news for you. We are going back to the world between worlds, where we get that spinning saber move from Anakin. Asoka's still using one blade, the white blade, but only one here as she did versus Bailen and Muruk. Remember Murak? I was like, only at a moment putting the notes together. I was like, and Muruk.

Oh my God, Maruk. Did you spell it when you first typed it in? Did you spell it M-E-P-H-I-S-T-O? And then you were like, wait, no. Sorry, he spelled M-A-R. Okay, yeah, yeah. Incredible stuff. Miss that guy.

Asoka, like, kicks out again in the face? Is that what happened here? I was like trying to follow the fight choreography or she definitely lays him out and says, looks like you don't have much left to offer. But they're like loving this. They're like smiling as they spar. Master and apprentice sparring again. Yeah.

It's wonderful. So sweet. And something I didn't say earlier is that we get to see Hayden. maybe I basically said earlier, but like, you know, Anakin is charming and like funny and all these things that like, and when you see him like this, you're like, okay, I get it. I get it, Padme, I get it. I get why you gave up.

You doomed the universe for this, you know, sort of thing. Just not what we got from him necessarily in the prequels. The women and the children too. It's fine, though. You're a charmer. The children too? That's fine. It's fine.

I've seen your crooked little smile. And I think what a lot of people have pointed out is that, like, Hayden's so obvious. I mean, like, there's a clear, like, posed moment that is meant to echo, like, a frame from Clone Wars. But he so obviously studied the way that Matt Lanter voiced the character and the way that the character was drawn, these, like, crooked smiles, like, all this sort of stuff. It's just, like, it's really fantastic. I absolutely love Matt Lantern's Anakin in Clone Wars and, like, just everybody getting. to share in this expansion of our understanding

of the character is just really special. So, because it looks like you don't have much left to offer in response. He slices the bridge that she's standing on

while smiling. That crooked smile, Joe. Shatters. He says, I haven't taught you everything yet and she cascades down into

live action clone wars. The gasp that went up in the theater. I'm sure. When people realized what was happening because we're in this purple smoke and then we see and as a soca is kind of

obscured in the middle and then we see the clone wars era clone troopers run forward and we see anakin run forward and then we see asoka run forward and we see that we're with young osoka with snips 14 years old we'll talk more about that performance in a few minutes before we get into what we actually are watching here in this first memory i'm curious to talk about that haze that's that's the that smoke, that purple and then later orange. Smoke, how did the, in general, like, how did it feel to see the Clone Wars in live action to be in these memories? We already, I think, talked about the fact that we both feel like we could have benefited

maybe from one more because they're so rich and compelling. It would have been great to see even more. How did this hazy style visually work for you? What are the pros of the time that comes from? I loved it. Like, you can both see it for what it is, which is a clever way to keep the budget low, like spend all your money on the de-aging budget and not on, like, an actual set, fine. Keep the volume obscuring, it's a volume obscuring tactic.

And it's a way to, like, help the de-aging effect. But it works for, like, you know, magical therapy. I think it's perfect. And running through, like, the literal fog of war for one battle to the next. And the way, and I like the way that it was fantastically colored. So it's, you know, you're just, like, very much. You're in a real space. You're in live action clone wars, but you're also not in a real space because the fog is purple or the fog is orange.

You know? Yeah. I thought it was great. I feel the same way. It's like the limits of the volume that end up being a clever way to make the volume work for your production. And, you know, I think my only critique of it is that I do think it was, it made it a little more difficult than is ideal to distinguish between these snaps. and where we are. It's like, can you really tell and feel that you're on Mandelor in the Siege of Mandelor memory?

Like, not really. I mean, we get other visual indicators like the Super Commandos or a super commandos or something to say. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. But I agree. I think the fog of war point in that, like, heightened sense of that is a great call out. I thought it was just beautiful, too.

Like the color coding, those glimpses when an explosion will, it's a moment of horror, but then it also like illuminates your ability to see. something just lurking, a walker crawling just out of view behind another plume. And I think the other thing I loved about it is like that haze of memory. Like we talk about this often, the idea, my routine story to point to, as you know, is modern television classic The Affair. But I do love stories that. A Roshaman moment. I like stories that examine that idea and like prod and poke at whether we can totally trust our own recollection of something. And so the haze of memory is like very, very palpable. Also the, the like, what it connects to with Anakin in, I think

almost all of like, her running after Anakin. And so there's like a couple layers there of like, in that dream space sort of running after the thing you want. She wants, she's like, wait, come back. Right. But also you can't see what you're running towards. You can't quite see what you're chasing. And also it keeps on a storytelling level, on like a television storytelling level, it keeps the momentum going forward of like, we got to go. We got to come on, Snips, we got to go. You know, you're, p.S. you're drowning. But like, let's go.

Like, where we, you know, she does sit down at a certain point by the body if someone and, like, sits and stops. But for the most part, we're like, everyone's running forward around us. We got to keep running. We got to keep going through these memories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

One of the things we're going to talk about as we go through the moments of the past that we are reliving with Asoka is the why this memory question. And something that we talked about in, though there is an asterisk coming on the why this memory very, very shortly. But we'll get to that in the second. We talked about this in our preview pods and we've brought up Tales of the Jedi subsequently. You made the great point because we both had moments from Tales of the Jedi on our top of Soka moments pod. And you made the excellent point of like, these were chosen for a reason. Those snapshots of a moment in time in Asoka's past, each one of those told us something crucial about who that character is or a thing that had happened to her. And so like what is each of these moments from Osoka and Anakin's past was chosen for a reason.

What is it about what they lived through? Like crucially, these are all battle scenes. These are all war scenes. We don't get a single quiet conversation at the Jedi temple. It's battle, it's blood, it's loss, it's fear, it's violence, all of it. And then there are like thematic, more particular thematic moments inside of each of them. So what are we seeing here? There's a debate might be too strong, but there's a little bit of a fluid interpretation.

of what this first thing that we're glimpsing is. Some people think that both this and then the next memory, because we don't cut to, we don't cut back up to Heron and Co. And there are no costumes changes. There's no lightsaber changes. We like fade into the smoke and then we come out. We're in a memory that all of that. Because the second part of that,

which we'll talk about in a few minutes, is without question the battle of Rilov, without question. So is this part of that or is this the battle of Teth? Now, I'll say when I watched this for the first time, I thought this was all one thing. And then working on Ben's column with him and talking to him about it and rewatching the episode, Ben ended up in the team, this is the Battle of Teth camp in his column. And I think that's where I am now, too, happy to be wrong, prepared to be wrong. I think there are couple bits of evidence that it could be Teth.

So, again, it could all be Ryloth. I think that the purple haze, like the color coding of this, definitely evokes Teth, which is from The Clone Wars movie, not the series. The movie that comes from the 2008 Clone Wars movie, our introduction to the character of Asoka and the Anakin and Asoka origin story. The Purple Hays, that's what we see in Teth in the movie. There's also that line. This was one of our first missions together.

And while Ryloth is still season one of Clone Wars, it's the end of season one of Clone Wars. It's the end of season one of Clone Wars. I think that one of our first missions more appropriately sinks with the timeline of this being Teth, which the very first battle they have together is Christophis when Asoka's like in the middle of a battle, like, hey, I'm here, I'm your battle on. And Teth is the pursuit, this will like sound just,

if you have not watched this, you'll be like, what is this serious of the plot of this movie? It is. The quickest version of it I could give you is It is the pursuit to find and rescue Java the hut's newborn huddling, hotlet child, stinky, who is quite ill. And it turns out, stop me if you've heard this before, that this is a Palpatine manipulation. What?

It is a false mission, Joanna. Somehow Palpatine returned to fuck up everybody's shit again. Somehow Palpatine duped them again. That's also part of why, I mean, obviously, you know, the separatists are part of Rilof. It's all part of the clone word. Papi's hand is behind everything. But this in particular, I think there's an element of like for the why this memory and why this lesson. There's a little bit of a teth fit there that I think is compelling with like a life of violence for someone else's reasons that you can't always see and can't always understand that like twisting guiding hand of the dark side.

And also just again, that earliest days part. I just, I think the other thing with Ryloth is like for reasons we'll talk about when we get there. the established canon of like an aerial attack losing Asoka's squadron. I don't know just if like sequentially what we see here, Asoka with Anakin running behind him, him leading the charge, sinks with moving right into her failure and her mistake as the leader of a mission. So I'm camp, I'm, I'm, I'm camp, Teth.

I think at the end of the day, it's either works, but that's where I am. What about you? I think I'm kind of Camp Ryloth, that this is all one sequence, only because the lack of delineation between the two. I'm literally like, did they think they were too heavy on the heresies and had to put one out? I could never, I could never, I would never like fight you and Ben in the street over this. You know what I mean?

Especially since you guys are walking Wikipedia's, but, you know, and I wish Dave Filoni were giving interviews. I know. So that we could get some clarification. It would be great. That would be great. Pay your writers and PTP. Anyway.

Regardless of whether it's Teth or Ryloth. Let's chat about Young Asoka for a minute, Joe. What did it feel like when she came into focus in the center of your screen? Ariana Greenblot, Young Gamora. A lot of people who have seen Barbie very excited about her role in Barbie. I will be with you one day, folks.

I can't wait to catch up on the summer's pop culture. I know. Maybe this weekend. Maybe this weekend. Between Doctor Who episodes. Sounds great. And Orioles escapes. The series of the season.

It was raised head to head as I was texting you last night. It's just, uh, it's intense. It's intense, Joe. Seeing her in live action cemented for me in a way, like that is, was, of course. Harrowing how young she is. Like, you were looking at a child. That's the brilliance of this. Like, it's not, I mean, Ariana is great.

I thought she was great as young Gamora. I thought she's, she's fantastic in the Barbie movie. I thought she's great casting for young Asoka. But even before she opens her mouth and you're like, oh, okay, good, this performer is good. You're just like, she looks so young. And so then it just drives home that child soldier. I mean, like, when you see her in the Clone Wars, she is young, obviously.

And, like, we see her physically mature over the seasons of the animated series. But, you know, you're an animation, like, Yoda's Tiny 2. You know, it's just sort of like it doesn't really feel as much as I am watching a child soldier here as it does here. And it's just like heavy, extremely heavy. 14 year old. Unbelievable. Anakin, younger too, not 14, but seeing Hayden as Anakin in the, with the shorter hair and the Clone Wars armor. I mean, this was like just fucking thrilling. This is so good. So, so, so good. And seeing him, you know, here getting to interact with young Asoka with his pat on and calling her synapse. This was just like, God, what a treat. What a treat.

Your, the, why are we here line. This was one of our first missions. Why are we here? You tell me, I don't understand. That's your problem. Cements for us, what we were saying earlier, right? The search for understanding. Like, this is where Asoka had to go to seek this knowledge and seek this clarity and seek some sort of inner peace. Master wait, got to keep up. What about my training? This is your training. The idea that you're training, your education, your tutelage, your progress, your path

is perpetually and eternally the theater of war is so inescapable in this episode that it's like, again, if you've spent a lot of time with Asoka, you're just kind of of despondent and in a state of despair thinking about this and watching it. And if you haven't and you don't have this history with her, what a way to sum up her past and her trauma and what she has been through. Yeah. Forged in the, forged in the theater of war. The bug of war, yeah. They did a slight red con on her outfit, but we're glad because we don't like her outfit that she wore as a 14-year-olds. Good choice to update this. It's a tube top. We don't like it. But yeah, as we're tracking the outfit, we're tracking the sabers, we're tracking

the headpieces, all of that. That helps, that helps, like, Clone War scholars anchor themselves in time. We've got a single green saber here. We've got the Paduan beads on her headtails, etc. For Anakin and Asoka, too, it was, like, so effective to help us move through time. That was that was really, really, really fun. Almost like wigs can be great storytelling devices. Went On track. Bigwatch with Jim. T.M. T.m.

T.m. T.m. Yeah. I still can't get over the recent email that put the DM in both places. That was so funny. Just love it. Love the bad babies. They're the best.

They are the best. So whether we're moving from Teth into Rylof or phase one of Rilof into phase two of Rilof, move into the next scene of the memory phase here. And we're like lingering in the haze, but we're shifting from purple into orange. and we see the Tweedlex in the back. This is, again, unmistakably Ryloth from those visual clues, but also because of what we are seeing

from Asoka, Joanna, this was a battle, this was a moment that you had on your most essential Osoka moments primer episode. Please revisit for us why you selected this and how what we see here

brings that back to the four as a crucial moment for this character. We love to pat ourselves on the back when something from our primer makes it into the show. It's great. The tagline is, as we've mentioned a number of times, the tagline for the Asoka show is Warrior Outcast, Rebel Spy. And I did slightly different categories. And one of mine was fuck up.

And this was under, like, Asoka the fuck up, right? Because she absolutely fucks up here and gets a bunch of clones killed. You may not have known that they were clones necessarily because they had towels on their faces. This was incredible. But like, is that just a refreshing washcloth after a sweaty day or? No, they're dead and it's very sad. But also they save themselves the effort of trying to make them all look like young, Tim Morrison's.

Anyway, it's important for Asoka to be a fuck-up because what day Follone likes to say, right, which is that stories are always told to identify with ourselves our lives and the people around us and we make mistakes and we have regrets and we may have never gotten a squadron of clones killed in a battle over in the storm of Ryloth but we have done things. Being fallible as being human. Yeah. Yeah. We have um we love a character on an arc. This is an important starting point for her. This is like a, this is like a devastating way for her career as a warrior to begin. Um, and she carried this with her forever and, and her connection to the clones, not just thinking them as canon fodder, but as individuals, that's a hallmark of her character as well.

And also, like, what she did in this moment, the reason the fuck up happened is because she was not listening to everyone telling her to come back in. And the way that the show took that perceived weakness of rebellion and turned it into a strength for her is also. something we really admire in Asoka. And I think what I loved about this also just literally how it's depicted here. I mentioned she stopped. We're running, we're running, we're running. She stops.

She sits down. She looks literally weighed down by grief here, by grief and guilt and despair. And when you compare that to the bright white lightness of her flight later at the very end of the episode, I think this is just like her all the way sunk all the way down at the bottom and then she will soar up from here. I absolutely loved it. The epigraph, the opening note for that episode,

it's a multi-episode art, but the one where ignoring that decision gets so much of her quadrant killed and she is so shattered is it's a rough road that leads to the heights of greatness. Joanna did this and the choice to go to this moment

and make you think of a little movie called The Last Jedi yet again, perhaps a favorite lesson from Yona to Luke? Pass on what do you have learned? Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes. Failure. Most of all the greatest teacher failure is. One of the best lines in Star Wars ever. Just incredible. And like to in such a dire circumstance allow us to think about that again and think about how these characters and this world can embrace the idea of like the lesson of mistake and failure, mistakes and failure, of embracing failure

rather than letting the fear of making a mistake stop you in your tracks, stop you from living at all. It's just meaningful and beautiful and important. We see Anakin look and he spots. Snips in this state, weighed down by that grief, as you said. And he walks over to try to encourage her, to try to keep her going.

And a fascinating exchange ensues. Steve, can we hear this in full? We lost so many. There was always a price to be paid. It was my fault. They were following my orders. I got them killed. Come here.

This is war, Osoka. As Jedi, it's our job. job to lead. That doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. But our mistakes cost lives. That doesn't bother you? Of course it does. This isn't what I train for. You must adjust to the times. Look, when Obi-1 taught me, we were keepers of the peace.

But now, to win this war, I have to teach you to be a soldier. Is that all I'll have to teach my own Padawan one day? day how to fight. We could do an entire podcast just on this conversation. We really could. There's that much to unpack here. And again, like, this wasn't even the opening quote for this pod. There's another conversation coming that has even that much more.

Oh, boy. Okay, let's take it. Let's take a beat by beat here. There's always a price to be paid. We talked last week about Baylon invoking this for the greater good. idea that we often associate with the foe, the villain, to borrow a term that you've been bumping on enemy. And we have to cite the moments and think about the moments where our quote unquote nominal

heroes, the good guys, are using that same calculus, are making that justification too. People are dying. Terrible things are happening. The world is a mess. It's for the greater good. There's always a price to be paid. The greater good. There it is.

I knew you get it on the second one, Steve. Oh, man. Great stuff. Great stuff, Steve. We were just talking about how young Asoka looks. Like, you can hear in this, exchanged in that clip, to hear a child saying it was my fault,

they were following my orders, I got them killed again. Just like, this is a kid leading a charge in war. Like, this is just, we talk about this a lot, but I don't think we talk about this enough, how fucked up this is.

The Midnight Boys do a great job of talking about the child soldier horror of the legacy of the Jedi Order, but it is like inescapable here. Our mistakes cost lives. That doesn't bother you. Of course it does. I think that this, of course it does, is in the running for my favorite Hayden-Annegan moment.

I just thought the way he said this and the look on his face, and the depth of conflicts that he was carrying inside of that line and regret but paired with conviction. And I love the moments that make us think about when, whether it's Anakin or Obi-Wan or Anakin and Asoka, when characters are actually aligned in like feeling the limitation of the institutions of power or the current state of play

or those consequences, those wrong consequences, right reasons, whatever the case may be. but can't figure out a way to solve it or can't figure out a way for their shared perspective and point of view to be a solution rather than like a shared lament. And then of course just like the weight of the tragedy of Darth Vader of Anakin becoming Darth Vader

of the guy who's saying, of course it does, flickering into our screen mirror moments from now encased in his breathing suit with a red lightsaber in his hand. Like this was just I was really struck by the next part when she says this isn't what I trained for and he says we must adjust to the times

look what Obi-1 taught me we were Keepers of the Peace but now to win this war I have to teach you to be a soldier. Okay, so a couple things. You have some thoughts on that. But I mean a lot of people are citing this Mace Windu quote right where if he says you must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic

we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers. Mallor will editorialize that in a second But I felt like this isn't what I trained for, and we must adjust to the times, made me think of Frodo and Gandalf, the very famous exchanger, Frodo says, I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish that none of this had happened. And Gandalf says, so to all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that it is given to us. So, like, guess what we're going to talk about Gandalf some more. But, but. But. But you know, what I think is interesting here is for me, my interpretation of this entire chunk is that there are things that Anakin is right about here and there are things that Anakin is wrong about here. And that's so interesting about a sort of spirit guide, I suppose, to say that as like atheistically as possible, where if it's formed from your own. her psyche, if it's form from, have form from memory. Did Anna can never say something similar like this actually to her? Maybe she's weaving that in with the other lessons that her own brain is trying to teach her

what's going on here. But like, I don't think it, I don't think it's bad writing for there to be inherent contradictions of rightness and wrongness within a character like this who is ever shifting, ever changing in a space like this, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think that that's part of what makes it tragic. that like there were times

where maybe Anakin believed this and would have counseled it and then times where he felt like this specifically was like the hypocrisy that he had to rage against and he just didn't know how and that was weaponized against him and led to his fall

you know, in addition to other things obviously. But like, you know, the guys talked on their pod this week about how when you hear when Obi-1 taught me we were Hebrews of the piece, it's like impossible not to think about like

the child we saw brought into the battle above Nabu. Like he's, when we're talking about Osokah as a kid, he's, he's firing shots, blowing up ships as a child. And then like the, I always,

I always returned to this moment on the Clone Wars, both because I love Satine, the Duchess Satine, but because I think that it's important when Star Wars calls out the hypocrisy at the heart of it and interrogates, the things that the characters say and the creeds by which they live their lives. Like this was obviously so top of mind for us with Mando and the idea of the way and where would they, where would they look to amend and adjust?

So when Seteen, and this is like a lot of it is about her history with Obi-Wan, but this is a conversation with Anakin, says, I remember a time, this is in Voyage of Temptation from the Second Season Clone Wars. I remember a time when Jedi were not generals, but peacekeepers. And Anakin says, we are protectors, highness, yours at the moment. We fight for peace. And her reply is, what an amusing contradiction. And so the way that the Jedi were deployed, were they ever actually keepers of peace, of the peace?

When did they use sight of what their mission either was? And is that a question that Baylon is preoccupied with? Right. I, man, I can't wait to see Bailin again next week. I know. Even just hearing, like, getting a little glimpse of him in the previously on and like hearing the memory echoes when Asoka is using her psychometry later to check the sphere. I was like, man, Palin, great character.

Great character. I will just say this. Our beloved Shinhani. By the way, a bunch of people just listening to this don't know that that's the character's actual last name. And they think I'm saying, H-O-T-I-E. I mean, that's the joke. But her last name literally. really is H-A-T-I.

Anyway, Ivana Sakno has said that next episode is her favorite. So get ready. House Hottie fans. Call the banners. Let's go. Steve. Joe called the banners.

You better be ready. And we ride. Gondor calls for aid. A Roan shall answer. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Well, speaking of Padoans,

is this all, is that all I have to teach my own Padua one day, how to fight line from Asoka. Of course makes us think of everything that we have watched with Asoka and Sabine. And really, some immense increasingly this like hesitation and reluctance and trepidation that Osokas been experiencing like that. That question,

that doubt, is death all that I can teach? Because that was the arena. That's how I was trained. My education. Like, yeah, am I an unworthy teacher? Am I, yes, I'm a part of that line.

And I didn't even get to complete my training. So all I got was like half-formed war lessons running through the fog and the mist, you know, like. Right. Is that I think to build a curriculum on? I like the idea of like how many times we've had this idea of this long line invoked, you know, from Huang and then Baylan and we're thinking of it very much here. And this question for Asoka, not only like, can I do a good job, but am I unfit to perpetuate? to perpetuate that line, to continue and extend that line.

And I was thinking, a number of things are in the mix here, but like again of Last Jedi, but before that, I do want to, we haven't really talked about Thrawn in a minute, and he was on my mind here because her focus on Thrawn over Ezra, this rift,

this rupture. Like, makes me think of it in a new light. War over peace or war over love. And if you think about the, like, if we think, if we take, we're going to really try to parse that live or die binary. But if you consider live, like, an aspect of being a Jedi or an aspect of being one with the force that is about peace and connection and uplift and love and like all that sort of stuff, and you consider dying being the sort of bellicose, soaked in blood,

you know, kind of a wartime Jedi that she was raised to be to a certain extent, then Thron is on one side of that equation and Azores on the other. And when her focus is, Thron's coming, war's coming, got to get ready for war, thron's coming, if he comes, there's wars coming, blah, blah, versus at the end of this episode, she says to her, I'm going to bring them home. It's not, I'm going to go find Thron and kick his ass. That distinction was so huge. I'm going to get Sabine and Ezra's there too.

Okay, Ezra too. Yes. Sabine and Ezra. Yes. Totally. That was like, that was so meaningful that distinction between needing to stop someone else versus like the active pursuit of bringing home these people that they care about and love. And like, of course she fears another war. Of course she wants to prevent another war. Of course she wants to offend off the return of the person she thinks would herald in that new age of violence. Like look at what look at what the. The previous violence did to her. Look at the grip it still has over her. What does everyone's universally favorite character from The Last Jedi, Rose, Justice for Rose, say, not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.

Yes. Oh, beautiful. I've got another Last Jedi one for you, Joe. Hit me. We are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all masters. Like, I think there are a number of important and crucial messages in the, in the, The Last Jedi, but I was thinking here about why this one is so important.

And that idea that it doesn't mean it should be easy. Like, it is hard. But that idea that true wisdom isn't fearing that you're not enough for your student, it's embracing that progress means them being more than you were. Great movie. Great movie. Anakin tries to lighten the mood and so doing reminds us. in Osoka that he never wanted a paduan.

Great stuff. She does not appreciate his levity. Not the time. Not the time. No time for jokes. When there's cloths dripped over the heads of many fallen cone. Legions of dead.

Yeah. Littering the volume at this very moment. Yeah. I'm teaching you how to lead, how to survive. And to do that, you're going to have to fight. What if I want to stop fighting? She says.

Then you'll die. Now this, this of course, calls back to a number of prior utterances of that line or similar lines. Emperor to Luke, you will die, Malna Ezra, you will die, Vader to Obi-1, then you will die, Vader's response to Luke in the, I will not fight you father,

is if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny. All of this, the same idea, recurring, recurring, recurring. But to go back to that, like, sometimes Anakin is telling the truth and sometimes he's saying, giving the wrong message. Yeah. Because I think what we're dealing with, whenever you think this thing is being played by Hayden Christensen here,

there are two, it's almost like it's to an angel and a devil on her shoulder, if you will, where you've got the lessons that Anakin thought he had to teach his Padawan. If you stop fighting, you'll die. This is what he believes. And then there's the lesson that either she is trying to teach herself or you could say a more enlightened Anakin is trying to teach her. Because the way she gets out of all of this is to stop fighting. Right. If you stop fighting, then you'll die.

She's like, no, I'm going to stop fighting and I'm going to live. Yeah. And it's rewarded with a smile. Met with a smile. Oh, I was telling you lies this whole time and you got it anyway, Snips. Good job. You passed the test. Is colladriel here?

You pass the test? We'll get to that. Scaladriel here. Scalodrial here. Oh, I'm missing. Me too. Me too. Anakin runs forward into the smoke.

And Assoco watches an abject horror as he morphs for a moment into Vader and the Vader musical tone hammers us. And this is an absolutely chilling visual that is somehow, I think, topped by the continuation of it, by the second version of it later. I saw it was amazing. It was amazing. I saw a really funny TikTok yesterday where someone was like, oh, Dave Floney's been watching the edits because and then they like put this to some of the, like, people. will often use, like, in the hall of the mountain king, like, these various musical cues that people will use to make Anakin Vader, like, cutting back and forth edits, and it lines up perfectly with the music. And, like, listen, I don't think Faloni is necessarily getting his editing

tips from TikTok, but it's just like, it is, it looks like the best Anakin Vader edit you would ever see. The most high budget, Anakin Vader edit you would ever see on TikTok. This is stunning visuals. Absolutely brilliant. I love it. Which was your favorite? This one or the second one? back in. I think I liked this one. Oh. Better.

You know, I like, I like his sort of like stamp forward and the like sort of like hunching thing that he does. Like that's good. But I like, I like the back of him here because then it just makes the, and in a foggier setting and then it just sort of makes it even more. And also it's the first time it was done in the episode. So you're just sort of like, you know, absolutely riveting. Yeah.

I regret to perform you. We must go back to... Can we just speed through this? The X-Weing search for a minute. There's literally only two quick things we need to talk about. The X-Wing's searching. They have no luck. But on the ghost,

Hera tells Hu Yang that this actually wasn't a sanctioned mission, reveals this. And she's like, some general I am. And he says, you do things your way because you care. This is why people like you. And we just want to. one more time note that like our snarky guys melt in our hearts again what an absolute gemstone this was lovely

lovely always a rebel I was just going to say that once a rebel always rebel like even a character who says that sometimes needs that little boost and that affirmation that it's okay to try to do something like this I thought there was a fascinating moment that occurred next which we don't have to linger on just wanted to mention it when they're discussing Asoka's master, and we get the, you know, what was he like? Intense exchange. It seems clear that Hara does not know that Asoka's master, Anakin Skywalker, became Vader. Now, we've chronicled at length over many pods

how few people knew that Attica became Vader, but for Asoka to not have told Hara this, that she tells Sabine this. Like, this feels relevant. Something that's interesting. Yeah. And something that's interesting in the timeline, we heard mention of Senator Organa, is that, according to, like, you know, in the bloodline novel, Leah gets drummed out of office because

it is revealed that her father is Darth Vader. So, yeah, this is not common knowledge. Lots. And losses. That exchange is interrupted because Jason and Chopper are signaling with a location. that will lead them to eventually pick a soak up. But we've got another memory, Joe, before then. And it is.

This is like the way my heart soared for you and then sunk for you. It's the siege of Mandelor, fucking great, thrilling. And I was like, it's going to happen. Joanna's about to get in Tarth Mall. And you didn't. I didn't. You didn't. But you did get a Mall Super Commando.

That was fun to see those horn helmets. We got fucking Captain Rex. Rex. Tamm is Captain Rex. a nice work commander. Just an Easter egg to make a Rebels fan or a Clone Wars fan's heart absolutely

sore there. Soca's got the two blades, the blue ones that Anakin gifted her. She's wearing the different outfit, no Paduan beads. We can place ourselves even before she says, Siege of Mandelor. This is Clone War Season 7. This is the final stretch.

And this is such, like, such a stunning moment to pick, not just because of, like, the larger connections to Mandelor, that, you know, Pheloni and Favre are interested in right now. But, like,

if you watched season seven of Clone Wars, you know, this is a moment where, as she says here, Asoka and Anakin have already parted ways. Yes. She has already seen him for the last time until she will see him again as Vader.

She has already seen him for the last time wearing the face that she knows. And she is surrounded by clone troopers who have peaked. painted their helmets to look like the markings on her face, the orange spray paint on their helmets. And they will very soon thereafter, because of Order 66, turn on her and try to kill her. All of them. And she will have to, with only Rex and Mal as an ally, have to battle through them in order to survive.

Right? And so the... This is her right on the precipice of something. thing. This is the last time she'll be like a Jedi commander, right? This is the last moment of that. And because Order 66 is right around the corner, elsewhere, meanwhile, back at the ranch, Anakin's about to go in a youngling spree. So, you know, it's, you know. Seeing, because it's not just her that we're placing in time, when we see Anakin, we're just like, that's revenge of the Sith,

Anagan, you're like, fuck. I mean, it's just such an instant. It ports you into that emotional space. Not the scraggly hair. So quickly as a Star Wars fan. I thought also, like, before we parse that a little bit more, I did think it was shocking. We've seen Asoka in a number of fights.

We've seen Asoka kill a number of people across our time with her. But to go from the, is this all you're going to teach me? Is this all I'm going to have to pass on into seeing her whirling around, slicing down, like almost gracefully murdering anyone in her path. And that's the task of the day. And they're there to help.

They're there to fend off a dire threat. But that was just like, oh, my God, that inescapability of the grip that that, that's that bailing quote, that death of destruction has was like, even if it's for the right reason, is very intense there. He says, I don't know this battle when Anna

can appears. And she explains this was the siege of Mandelor. We had part of ways by now. Looks intense it was. Well, we have to think of Hu Yang's words here again because they weren't together either. And it wasn't by choice, right? Like, the emotion

of that reunion, the clone helmets, the gifting of the blades. Yes and no. Like, it wasn't by choice, but it's also like in that moment, when he gives her those two blades and he's like, I knew you'd come back to me to quote the prophet Taylor Swift, you know.

And she's like, no, that's not what this is. Right. And he has that whole stretch with Obi-1 where he's like, this is, this explains it. This is why she had to leave to do this. And he's trying to rationalize every decision that she made. Exactly. And to help in this other way. And so, like, when she and Buketan are there to try to convince the, to compel the

Jedi order to help on Mandelor and they won't, this is, I think, a fascinating moment to pick for a number of reasons. like the order won't help again. So it's another reason for Asoka to resent them and to see, and for us to see the limitations of what the Jedi order can do. Anakin, the emotional state that he's in of trying to convince himself of why everything happened

is not a healthy place to be. It's a relatable place to be. It's not a healthy place to be. Denial. But he splits. He's the one who's like, we got to find a way to do something here. We'll split the 501st.

The 5001st. will promote Rex. She can be the, she's like an advisor. He can lead the charge. And so it's another moment where the Jedi fail Asoka. They're about to fail Anakin. He's also about to fail them. Important to say.

And like on the precipice of that, they're not able to work through something together because they're not together. And there's a moment in this Clone Wars arc where Obi-One is appealing to Asoka to bridge something that is ultimately unbridgeable. Let's hear that, Steve. I can't imagine he has.

happy about this. No, he's not. So perhaps it's best that you do speak with him. And what? Defend the council's actions? I hardly think I'm the best person for that. Asoka, the council isn't always right. That's why I'm asking for your help.

Yeah, keep propping up the council. If you want, see where they get to. It's a tough one. Joanna, we then move into our opening clip from today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've already heard in full. We are going to go through all of this. And let's start with the beginning of this exchange between Anakin and Asoka,

amid the Siege of Mandelor playing out around them. You did well. You're a warrior now, as I trained you to be. Is that all? Asoka, within you will be everything I am. All the knowledge I possess. Just as I inherited knowledge from my master and heat from his, you're part of a legacy.

But my part of that legacy is one of death and war. It is impossible not to think of Baylon's words, which we're in the previously on at the start of this episode, which we heard last week in episode four, your legacy, like your master's, is one of death and destruction. Can we press pause here? Yeah. I want to talk about Baylon for a second, not just because I always want to talk about Baylon, but something unlocked for me about Balin. But something unlocked for me about Balin and it has to do with. positioning Asoka in the Gandalf the white camp because we'll be talking a lot about Gandalf the white and so I was doing a bunch of rereading of chapters to try to like really drill down on what

Tolkien believed was the difference between Gan off the gray and Gandalf the white so that we could sort of understand what felony wants to accomplish here. But one of the first things that Gandalf says when he comes back and he meets with Erdogan and Legolas and Gimley in the forest or whatever, Gimley says Gandalf but you're all in white and Gannoff says, yes, I am white. now. Indeed I am Saraman. One might say Saraman as he should have been. And so I was wondering, and we also got an email about this, but I swear it was already in my notes. But shout out, Josh. I was wondering if we're setting up Bailen as a sort of Saramon figure, because you know that I've been having a really hard time trying to square his ideology with this word power.

I just thought it was like so weird. But here's what Sarmon says to Gandalf when he like is explaining what he wants. He says, a new power is rising. Against it, the old allies and policies will not avail us. This is this then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that power, Thron. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way.

Its victory is at hand. and there will be a rich reward for those of us that aided it. As the power grows, it proved friends will also grow, and the wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time. We can keep our thoughts in our hearts. Deploring, maybe, evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose,

knowledge, rule, order, all the things we have striven so far in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak and idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means. And so when you think about, this is Joanna again, obviously not Tolkien, because I don't speak as beautifully as Tolkien writes, when you think about the things that Baylon said about like, Thron wants war, I don't want war, I'm not going to do that. And the idea of like you have to destroy something in order to create it. He's like, Thron is a necessary evil to get what I want, which is, I think, a non-warlike Jedi order, right?

Because he's like so exasperated with, oh, it's always got to be this way with you, Asoka. It's always got to be fighting something like that. Yeah. And that this is like sort of for the greater good. The greater good. The evil that he has to tolerate. Interesting. I really like that comparison and that parallel.

And I think it's interesting, too, to think of Baylon as just like Assookon, just like everyone else, a character who maybe has like a clear, he has a, like you said last week, a code and a point of view and a mission and a purpose, but also still conflict and inner turmoil and moments where he butts up against the thing that he believes he should be fighting for or the way in which you should be fighting for. Because, like, I'm still, the thing, I keep thinking of like, he's, saying that to Osaka, but this is the guy who cut down everyone on that new Republic prison vessel to Spring Morgan. Like, without,

it doesn't mean he was gleeful, but he did it. He did it. That's death. That's destruction. And like all these characters, we can, that's the quote. We can buy it our time. We can keep our thoughts on our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way,

but approving the high and ultimate purpose. That's his right reasons, wrong consequences, or Yeah. Whatever, damn the consequences. You know, Saraman will be like, Saramon will be like, join me, right? Yes.

You know. And the willingly, yeah, the pitch to Sabine. Yeah. Willingly. Yeah. I love that. I had a, the Lord of the Rings, the Middle Earthian thing that I was thinking of here

was our guy Finrod from Rings of Power. And the beautiful, sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness. Sorry. That hipster fade. I just still think about it all the time. That quote, sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness and how top of mind that was for us

for Gladriel's journey the rest of the season. But like, is Galadryl here? No, Season two brings the power when the, I can't wait. Asoka has to pass the test here. She has to make a decision

and do a thing that Anakin did not have the strength to do, which we'll get to. But she has to be in the situation. She has to touch the darkness in order to know the way that she will respond to it. And Baylon is comfortable with that necessity, with the moments when you have to touch the darkness in order to know, in order to push through.

You know what else I was thinking of in this stretch? Our beloved Roy's, and that maybe the poison drips through idea from succession because of that, you know, the dark underbelly of that I suppose you do come from a long line of non-traditional Jedi and like interrogating and being honest with yourself about what part of that is a gift and what part of that is a curse

and what part of that you're eager to inherit and say I'm next and what part of it you're afraid of. And my part of that like sees one of death and war, right? when he says, but you're more than that, because I'm more than that, that's maybe my favorite Anakin line. Because again, you can see it any kind of different way depending on who you think this thing is, if it's just a projection of her mind or whatever.

But since I choose to believe that Annika is plucking some strings in the symphony here, this seems, you know, this is Anakin from beyond the grave being like, don't just remember me as Vader or someone who may be made an inappropriate joke at wartime. Like, there's a lot more to me. Or it can just be Asoka inside her own head being like, he's not just Vader, he's all these other things. But for so long, she was longing for and missing the sainted version of him that was incorrect. And then she spent a long time being afraid of the demonic version of him that is incorrect. And part of the test here is to wrap her arms around the whole truth of him.

I agree completely. I think that even though live or die is presented as is often in Star Wars, this very deductive and limiting binary, the truth has to be somewhere in the middle and you pick your path in part because you were able to accept that. And like, Osoka needing to, if this is Asoka telling herself this, it's just, just a much, it's still just as much about Anakin needing to tell herself that they're, and to hold on to that good that was in him while telling herself that there's good in me too, that I'm fearing the darkness.

The other thing he put in, he passed down to me. But I have to hold on to the other thing that can be there too. That was a great line. That was amazing. You are more Anakin. Just the way he says it. Yeah. So like defensively, I'm more than that.

Well, there's almost like a desperation. Yeah. Right? It's like, right? I need you to remember. I need you to remember me a sky guy because that was the best of me, you know? One day, he'll look with his own eyes. It'd be a beautiful.

Oh, boy. We love a redemption arc, you know? Sometimes there are two decades of murdering allegiance on the way to that redemption. But, you know, Star Wars. Asoka says here, you are more Anakin, but more powerful and dangerous than anyone realized. And then Anakin says, it's not just what he says, it's the look on Hayden's face in this moment. This is like utterly iconic, historic. This is, I was in stitches.

I was laughing so hard. Is that what this is about? Wait, say it again. Yes, Anakin, that's what this is about. This is about you becoming Darth Vader and murdering the younglings. Say it again. How does you say it? Is that what this is about?

Is that what this is a boot? Is that what this is about? Is that what this is a bit? Oh, my God. Incredible. This was just incredible. I thought this was genuinely, like, brilliant. This was so funny.

Is that what this is about? If I'm everything you are, and then it's like, okay, no, you're not, you're not wrapping your arms around all of me. You're focusing on the fear and on the thing, the part of me that you're scared of. You've learned nothing. I just ran through two to three different war scenes for nothing. I don't say that back to the beginning. Back to the beginning, we should say,

is, you know, the Jedi training language that we heard from Asoko when she was training Sabine. This is standard sort of, right, again, again, sort of thing. Absolutely. On the Sabine front, by the way, that's the other thing about the Mandelaar choice, just like the extra horror of like remembering the moment. moment where Asoka did go, given what we learned from Baylon. That's just, boy. So Anakin, when he's saying back to the beginning, and I gave you a choice, live or die, no, incorrect. He looks up and he's got the red Sith eyes again. He's transformed. And Hayden's like,

I have to put the yellow contacts back in. God, too. The blade is red again, Joe. He kicks Asoka, like back into the Way Station, back into that world between world space. Obviously, all of this is there, but into that version of it. And he, this is the other flickering, Anakin into Vader into Anakin sequence. This was my favorite.

The way that he is charging, like, thundering, barreling toward her, the stomp of the boot and the mixing. God loved, you hear Hayden speaking, but there's the Vader voice treatment, the thump of the boot. Vader's breath hissing, the red saber glowing in that white mist. Like it just gave me chills.

I think this is like an instantly iconic Star Wars shot. I thought this was amazing. And the way he's shouting you lack conviction, which is just like so singular but also again connects to so many prior moments and has just such strong, I find your lack of faith disturbing energy. This was remarkable. But like crucially, he doesn't remain as Darth Vader. I mean, it's all Vader at this point, but he's not in the Darth Vader suit.

We are looking at Anakin Skywalker's face during this final confrontation. And that is important. We cannot forget who is under that mask. And like sometimes when you get a glimpse of it, like in the twilight of the apprentice Rebels showdown when Asoka slices his helmet and we see in here for a second, you're like, oh, right. I can glimpse the humanity, the thing I'm trying to like hold on to or restore. Yeah.

But also, this doesn't let you off the hook, you know? Like when you're looking at the human being who became this thing. I think what's also, there are very loud rumors that rather than this final confrontation happening back in the way station, they were going to basically reenact Mustafa. But it was going to be Asoka instead of Obi-Wan. And when you watch how this encounter begin, like he looks like he looks on Mustafa, right? And when you watch how this starts him turning around at her and all of that, it is very the beginning of the Obi-Wan Anakin Dool Abustafar. But what I find interesting about that, and I think I'm...

Interesting. Again, the rumors are very loud about this, and I believe it was probably cut for budgetary reasons, or they just couldn't make it look right. And it looks great on the way station bridge. I will say if they had done that, I would have a harder time, like, wrapping my mind around. this being Asoka's projection and like in her examination. And I think it also

it would have also muddied the lesson because I don't think the lesson is if she had been there he wouldn't have fallen. This is something that we say over and over and over again. That's something she has to stop thinking. Yeah. Right. And so if they give us Mustafa and her instead of Obi-Wan and like she chooses not to fight him,

you know, she doesn't take him down. She doesn't cut his arms and his legs off. He's like, I hear you. You never had the high ground? Right. But I still think it's like a little, I still think that message is a little muddied honestly in the way this all resolves of like,

I would never have done that. I would never have taken the kill shot. And then he melts back into her Anakin. I'm getting ahead of myself. But you know what I mean? I think that doesn't, I think my notes for this episode are few. And one of them is, I really wish we had a clearer it was not your fault. Because that, to me, is more the baggage she's carrying around rather than my history is one of bloodshed.

My history is one of bloodshed feels like something that was just implanted into us like last week by Baylon. And we bumped on it last week. We were like, that's not really how I think about Asoka at all. And now all of a sudden it seems to be like the thing that she needs to, I mean, there are other things. They're great interpretations of this. But I really wish, to your point, you're like, I wish there was one more memory and sort of like one more conversation. And I wish in that conversation there was a very clear it was not, you leaving was not why this happened.

Because that seems to have been clearly her ghost for so long, you know? Yeah. I think the like larger fear about the darkness and sense. side of her worked for me. I agree that I really was like, I mean, if I, I will say, if I had not seen

the white cloak, the Asoka the White moment, later in this episode, I would have felt strongly that this was going to be a continuing motif. Like, which I think just speaks to the fact that it feels like

there is still, despite, there is a breakthrough, but there's still other stuff there that is unresolved. So I would like to see more of it in the future. I don't think we'll get more of it this season, but if there's another season of the show

or other times that... Some of her items of clothing are still gray. So maybe it's like she... Then she gets like white pants, like, the next time just to make the whole ensemble complete, something like that. Yeah. So this is great.

Just like FitWatch fully back on. Piece by piece. Check the drops. It's like trying to get the black belt in martial arts. You have to go through all the colors. She has to go through like the full gray gradient before she is pure white top of the class.

Oh my God. I was like, is this like a very pale like cement? Is this definitely white? Like just like at first. And that of course obviously it is. Maybe. Obviously it is.

The decision not to kill that you alluded to a minute ago. So they're dueling. It's brutal. And so it has both of her blades again. And Anakin disarms her. He's, quoting Blade Runner, he says time to die. And when she ducks and sways and then grabs his blade and has it at his neck,

and her eyes become Sith Red 2. We are, of course, thinking about Anakin having lightsabers at Duku's neck and fucking Palpi, do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. And Anakin does. He cuts off his head

And Asoka doesn't Asoka makes a different choice She says I choose to live This made me think very much of Galadriel Boy, she's gotten a lot of mentions today I thought this would be all Gandalf

But our gal is our gal gal She's in the mix Yeah If you've read or seen The Watch Rings of Power If you've read or seen Fellowship of the Flethrowship You're of course familiar

With the test of question The mirror of Galadriel yeah And the dark Galadriel like, oh shit, love me in despair. Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. Anacan's fall, what could have been, into, I pass the test,

I will diminish and go into the West and remain Galadriel. That's Asoka. And she looks kind of like, you know how Galadryl, how as played by Cape Blanche, it looks kind of like shrunken and shaken at the end of that?

I mean, I feel like when we see Asoka with out her head head gear on, waking up on the cot, she looks a little like shrunken chicken, you know. And then she puts on that new fin. It's like, this is like, I'm like waiting for like a this on the cover of like a restoration hardware catalog for fall, 2023. This was for splendid. Yeah. Joanna was also thinking of our guys, John Snow and Barrett Dundarian and a little television

program channel of Game of Thrones. I have heard of it. And have you heard of it? Have you heard of it? Plus. Talked about this moment many times before. This is from season seven, Beyond the Wall. This is a very rich exchange, and there's a lot here,

and a lot of it was top of mind for me in this episode because of not only this final moment, this embrace of life, but also the quest to understand and how important that is, but also how, like the folly sometimes of thinking you can wrap your arms in full around any aspect of your life. And when John and Barrick are walking across the ice and the snow, John says, that's all anyone can tell me. I don't know. So what's the point of serving a God if none of us know what he wants? And Barrick says, I think about that all the time. I don't think it's our purpose to understand. Except one thing. We're soldiers. We have to know what we're fighting for. I'm not fighting so some man or woman I barely know can sit on a throne made of swords. What are you fighting for? Life.

death is the enemy, the first enemy and the last, but we all die. The enemy always wins. We still need to fight him. That's all I know. You and I won't find much joy while we're here, but we can keep others alive. We can defend those who can't defend themselves. I'm the shield that guards the realms of men. Maybe we don't need to understand any more than that.

Maybe that's enough. I. Maybe that's enough. And like, that is a difficult breakthrough. for John. And in many ways, it's an almost impossible thing for him to accept.

And for Asoka to, like, live in her version of that. What is understanding? What is fighting in a way that is different from this other tainted thing, this noxious thing that someone else would make it?

How is that? Because, like, I don't think, maybe other people disagree. I don't believe that we will never see Osok a wheeled a lightsaber again. Like, Ben and I, when we were working on his com,

had a fascinating, a conversation about the, like, the use of the word pacifist. Like, I think we're going to see Asoka out there battling, but with a different purpose and a different perspective. But I don't think we're going to see her, like, fling shin against a rock again. Into a rock. Yeah. Or I don't think when she interrogates Morgan Ellsman again, she's going to use, you know,

tactics that the Jedi Council wouldn't approve of necessarily, you know. So that's why it's like, it's not a fundamental altering of who you are. It's an embrace of a different way to live your life. And that's great. But I think what I really wish we had seen over the years to make that land even more is even a smidge of a hint beyond these few episodes of Asoka that we've gotten that Asoka is flirting with the dark side. Because that is not who we've seen her be ever until we hear that she got a little rough in an interrogation. until she like flung someone against a rock. Though someone did point out when she,

when she's battling Sarah Michelle Geller, she does fling her against a pillar or two and stuff like that. But that was like more in the heat of battle and less like from across the crowd of room. I'm going to like fling you across into the hunch. It's a good point because I think, you know, certainly the episode is presenting the idea in that live or die equation. Living is the light and dying is the dark.

and this fear that we've been talking about throughout the pod that Asoka is carrying, it's not hard for me to believe that Asoko would have, for a long time, been wrestling with what it would mean if her master became Anakin Skywalker. And I think, or became, excuse me, became Darth Vader.

I think this is also where, like, now this was still a long time ago. Like, we talked in the first pot about how long it's been since Ezra's been gone. We're talking about more than a decade. But, like, we have talked before about how long Osoka resists accepting that Anakin is made her.

Right? And so like this more recent phase of her life maybe where we haven't been with her really for any of it until Mando, Boba and now this, maybe this has been this like driving fear. I guess I don't, I guess where I am and I agree with you on so many things is I am really resistant to a light side, dark side binary choice for, Assocato. Oh, me too.

That's not what I'm saying. I think that time I feel about Star Wars overall. Why no. You're saying she's choosing the light here. And I think it's a little more, I think she's choosing to embrace both. Not that she's going to become someone who uses the dark side, but to be less afraid of the dark side element.

Yeah, exactly. To know that she can, that she doesn't need to fear that this is just every second of her life waiting to drag her back down into the abyss. That she can move forward. I feel like what I like about it is there's an inherent contradiction in life or death, this battle as she fights with Anakin here, and then it's like I choose to live by throwing the lightsabers away. I don't know.

I think it's a little messy, but I don't mind that it's messy. And I think it is definitely open up to a lot of different interpretations. And we got one million emails of different people interpret. Like a lot of people were confused. What the fuck was the lesson here? That was the main thing. And that's what Ben and I were texting to each other as soon as the episode was done. And then a lot of people have sent in various interpretations that I think are like almost all brilliant.

And so what I love about it, at first I disliked it. And now I like its ambiguity because it means then that you could just like rise up to me. We got one email from someone that I really loved where it was like he was talking about Jason wrote, it took me a long time in a couple watches to really figure out what Asoka's experience in the world, between worlds, mentor. And after a while, I realized what I was really looking for was what this meant to me. Everyone in the fandom has at least some deep emotional connection to these characters. We all have to reckon with Anakin's fall in the same way that Asoka has to. And just this idea of embracing all that Anakin is and all of that lineage.

Like, that's what Jason decides it is. But he's like, it's a, I don't. need to parse it for, I don't think there's a correct answer to what it is until Dave Filoni tells us what it is. I like, I think to that point about Anakin, like, I think to that point about Anakin, like, I was thinking about that too, and I like that because like, if we think about their Malacor duel and the way they both talked about Anakin is like dead and death, again, there's that death idea, right? Like, Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him in Assook was saying that I will avenge his death and that fear of staring. the truth in the face. Like, when they part here, when Anakin

disintegrates from view, he's smiling, every, she's, he's at, she's whispering his name. When she's on the ramp of the ship after her rescue, it's like Luke calling Ben's name in Empire, the way that she's saying, Anakin, Anakin, like, she was afraid for so long to confront what had happened. And now she isn't. Like, you get the sense that if she saw again, she would welcome the chance to explore more things with him. And like, that is a fundamental change in her relationship to her past and this person in her life. And I think that like when he says, but you're more than that because I'm more than that. He's not, she says part of, my part of that legacy

is one of death and war. And he says, you're more than that because I'm more than that. He's not saying that's not who I am or that's not who you are. We are not denying the Vader part of this story. We're not as in Twilight of the Apprentice or as in the episode of Obi-Wan where Hayden, you know, appears through the Vader mask and is like, Anakin Skywalker's dead, right? Like, I killed him, right? We're not saying Vader's one thing and Anakin's another. We're saying they're all part of the same story and we can hold on to all. of it. And we don't have to be afraid of or in denial of or

disassociate from the part of this that sounds like he needs an inhaler. That's part of it too. You know? Like all of that is in the mix. I think that was the other lesson, right? It's like

I choose life, I choose to live. That's just, that's I choose to move forward. Like I choose to move on. I choose to let me go. Dwelling and guilt physically like dragged down by the guilt I have over

Ryloth the guilt I have over you etc., etc. Right, right. Our listener, you and I talked about this before we started recording because you had that Barrett and John Exchange lined up

and then one of our listeners wrote in with like the exact same exchange and we were just like, Charlie and Mallory are on the same page. Contraulte soulmates. Love it, Charlie. Just want you to know Charlie. Mallory did not steal that from you.

But we wanted to read the rest of Charlie's email because that was really interesting. Charlie wrote, for nearly half a century of Star Wars, Star Wars has conditioned us to expect these encounters to be about the choice between the dark and the light. This episode, however, asks us to consider something else, life and death. Life is motion. It is action. It is the fight. Life is love.

Love is the opposite of fear. Anakin's existence was ruled by possession, driven by fear, fear of losing his mother, fear of losing Padma, fear of losing Asoka. He fought, but he did not fight for love. He fought for fear, and thus he never truly lived. His fear conquered him. Asoka has been afraid since we met her, afraid of training guru, afraid of training Sabine, afraid of losing Sabine. But most of all, afraid that her choice is the reason Anakin was alone when he fell.

But this is not life because, to quote station 11, survival is insufficient. In this episode, Anakin pushed Asoka in every way and wearing every face until she chose to live or chose to die because survival is insufficient. This is not the gift he gave her and a measure. This was the gift he gave her in a measure of closure that she had never gotten before. I was thinking hearing that of like, again, the moment we talked about at the beginning of the series where Sabine is like, you're still living in your ship and the idea of Asoka, the wanderer or something that we like to talk about, but also like that nomadic existence is meaning that you are resisting on some level, like the putting down your roots and allowing yourself to connect to something that feels more permanent and less. transient. And like, I mean, the other thing that's cool about the world between worlds as a setting for all of this is like when she was there with Ezra and rebels and she was the one imparting the lesson and was the one who was more sure. And she was telling Ezra about Canaan, like, you can't save your master and I can't save mine. I'm asking you to let go. And like that is what she's allowing herself to do here, finally, to move forward. To let go. Yeah, so in that, we are completely on the same page here. And so in that sense, the word live is not like, I choose to survive or I choose to whatever. It's like, I choose to live. Whatever that means to you. Does it mean like taking a trip to Italy and eating delicious pasta? Maybe. Like, what is live? What is living with gusto? Does it mean walking out on the roof of a ship and touching a space whale? Maybe. Yes. You know? To me, that is what it means, yes, in a new fit.

There's hope for you yet. That's Anakin's parting message, or Asoka's parting message to herself. And when she wakes up, Joe, we caught from kind of the milky, subsuming depths of the world between worlds into that upward panning oceanic shot. And then when she wakes up, we learn the rotation later. she doesn't have the headpiece on, as you noted. I know you'll have more commentary coming on that in Wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson. T.M. There is a lightness.

There is an unburdened, unencumbered sense of like possibility in everything. And the way she embraces Jason and the genuine intrigue with which she receives the the information that he heard the lightsaber sound, she seems excited again about thinking about the force, about thinking about these connections between people. When she listens, we're going to talk more. Ben's going to join us later to talk about some of the force powers we see on display in the episode.

And when she listens to these memories, the imprint that Sabine left on the star map, and we had seen Asoka use this power when she was like walking over the shin Sabine battle site in episode two. Remember when Sabine got stabbed with a lightsaber in the show? That feels like a really long time ago already. Like there's this really severe, heavy look on her face when she realizes what happened. But I think if we had seen the same conversation a couple episodes ago, it's devastation,

it's despair, it's Sabine didn't listen. And that's not at all the way that she greets this. Right? It's about finding a solution. It's about believing that something new is possible because she's got that white poncho on and she's ready to rock as Asa Soka the White. You read us a beautiful passage last week preparing us for this. Again, like, Asoka's got Asoka the White at the end of Rebels and the rebels epilogue. So everybody has been anticipating after the return of her gray cloak that we would, part of this show's ambition would be to show us how she got to that point, just slightly shifting wear in the timeline. So we weren't surprised that this happened. It was about learning why and how. What on the Gandalf front here? I have a lot to say on the Gandalf front. We need to be keeping in mind.

So one thing I want to say, I've been thinking a lot, and we got a lot of various people writing in about this question of the enemy. And I've come up, you know, not to harp on this, is not the question you just asked me, but like I've come up with three solutions to this question. One is, and we've got a lot of people who wrote in about this, this idea that there isn't like an easy thing to call the threat right now because we can't call them the empire and we can't call them the first order.

An imperial remnant is like kind of unwieldy. And I guess you could say Thron and she's said Theron a couple times, but the audience hasn't met Thron or whatever. So like enemy, enemy is a good linguistic sort of stand-in for, I can't say the evil empire, I can't say the emperor, all that sort of stuff. That's one. Another is that I'm way overthinking it. We're all thinking that.

Joanna's way overthinking and they're just using the word enemy. Enemy has been used in Star Wars before, like, calm down about it. And then, actually, four. And then another is that, and to go with this episode where she embraces the Vader side of Anakin, like, is that the breakthrough she needed to stop thinking in terms of, like, war and enemy. and all that sort of stuff. Are we going to see her using that less going forward? We will have to track that.

But then we got an email from Dan, who pointed out that enemy with a capital E is a word that Gandalf loves to use in Laura the Rings. He said a bunch of quotes I just pulled two out. One is, be careful both of you. The enemy has many spies and his service, birds and beasts. Or let Folly be our cloak a veil before the eyes of the enemy. So when talking about Sauron,

Gandalf says, enemy. with capital E a bunch of times. So if Asoka is weaving in and out between saying Thrawn and enemy, that is a very Gandalf of any color move from her. She's interesting. I like it. I like it. But Gandalf, the chapter where Gandalf comes back after the fight with a ballrog is called

the white rider. Gandalf is also later called the White Pilgrim, and I thought that was interesting because Pilgrim is a word we've used a lot when talking about Asoka. But there's two things. I love that you mentioned like sort of this physical lightness about her because there's this what, you know, Gendell fights the ball rug.

He is lying, he dies. He's lying there. He's brought back. We'll talk about that in a second and what Tolkien meant by that. And then he is picked up by, you guessed it, a giant eagle. What do we do when he need a ride?

We get picked up by a giant eagle. And it's actually Galadriel. ever heard of her? She's galandria? Who puts him in the white robes. Like, Galadryl is the one that, like, dresses him in white. So it might just be, she's like,

well, this is my favorite color. Do you want to wear right? We can match. I don't know. But this is what he says to the giant eagle who comes to pick him up, who has picked him up other times when he's needed rescuing.

And he says, the eagle says, A burden you have been, but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you. Indeed, I do not think you need me anymore. Were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind. And I really feel like that applies to what we see in Rosario with just like sunshine

blasting out of her pores in the last sequence in this episode. The other is this idea of like death and. rebirth because I'm so glad you brought up John Snow because I've actually been thinking about John Snow a lot. And one of my famous and historic beefs with Game of Thrones the TV series is that John Snow dies and he comes back and I don't think he is as changed and transformed by that experience as he should be. I feel like when your hero dies and is reborn, I need to see more than just like a haircut, which is what Kid Harrington got when he came back to life. This is from a letter that Tolkien wrote, letter 156 from Tolkien, talking about Gandalf, right?

And he says, Ganolf really died and was changed. For that seems to me the only real cheating to represent anything that be called death as making no difference. So Tolkien also would have been mad at HBO's Game of Thrones for bringing back John Snow without much of a difference. Tolkien goes on to say, I am Ganof the White who has returned from death, end quote. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtong, I have not passed through death, not fire and flood, to bandied crooked words with a serving man, and so on. I might say much more, but it would be only in perhaps tedious elucidation of the mythological ideas in my mind. It would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of Gandalf, as is presented in this book, is a defect and one that I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend. But Gandalf is not, of course, a human being.

he was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic valar or governors, but authority with capital A had taken up this plan and enlarged at the moment of its failure. Ganof says, Naked I was sent back for a time until my task is done, sent back by whom and whence, not by the gods, whose business is only with this embodied world and its time, because Gennelph had passed out of thought and time. naked is alas unclear. It was meant just literally unclothed like a child and so ready to receive the

white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine and his healing in Lathlorian is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment. So this idea, Gandalf definitely died, is reborn, is reborn very differently and Tolkien's a little worried that he didn't make it clear that Gandalf really did die. And he was brought back, not by the angelic. It's hard. to explain the whole pantheon of what's going on in Middle Earth, but not by the angelic forces that send him in the first place, but by the authority capital A, a higher authority, is now concerned

because Ganalf has more work to do. And what makes me nervous for a time, he's returned for a time. And that makes me nervous for Asoka. Is she back as Asoka the White for a time? Did she die under the ocean? She was down there longer than someone. They were searching for a while.

Yeah. Could physically survive. Is she back for a time? You know? You know, Asoka's voice is one of the ones that Ray hears. I know. Hate to invoke Rise of Skywalker, but that means canonically she is not alive then.

Now there's a while between now and then, but that's the place we're moving toward. Well, she's, I mean, there's a couple possibilities. She's either not alive when the Rise is, Skywalker happens. Or she's in the world between, she just like, decides to go live in the world between worlds. And the force can't tell the difference. Or she's in another, she stays in the other galaxy and the force works differently there.

I don't know. Can't wait to find out. I have more to say about Tokyo, but I'll save it for when we talk about the pergels. I think, well, let's talk about the pergol. I think we would be remiss if we didn't mention the hilarity of the Hu-Yang Jason exchange Will you train me no? Do you know how to build a lightsaber? Yes.

Will you teach me no when Hera is trying to get them out of the way so that she could talk to Asoka? That was just delightful. Great shit. But after the psychometry stretch and the conversation between Asoka and Hera about Sabine, Osama sees the burgle overhead and inspiration strikes. Now, we talked about this last week.

I think to be clear, we anticipated that this is exactly what happened, that someone would hop aboard the Pergel Express and go along the pathway to Peridio. That makes sense. I thought that when it actually did happen in this episode, it was amazing. I loved every part of the way that this manifested.

I am still bumping on the fact that this is like... That no one has tried this plan. Presented as a grand revelation. I would buy, by the way, on the Asoka, the White... I have emerged... reborn. I have gone through my battle of blood and fire and my baptism and and and come out the other side have come out. Yeah. That maybe like literally something like her ability to commune with the per go through the force. She has unlocked either a new power or an awareness and understanding of her relationship to that power and that she has new impulses,

etc. I'm that part makes more sense to me as a possibility that like nobody thought to try to use the creatures who Ezra left with in the first place is still very strange to me. And like, particularly after they came back into the story in episode three, that's just, even then I'd be like, well, it took so long. But like, someone then should have said, do you think we could hit your eye? That's just very, very odd. Should we just do what Ezra, literally do what Ezra did? Very odd.

Anyway, that's what happened. And we should now talk about. hopping that ride on the pergul. They're beautiful. Did you like how huge this one was? And you got your belly of the pergul, Joe. That is. They fly inside.

A wind is a wing. Space slug in empire, of course. Not quite what I predicted what happened, but a w is a w and I'm going to take it. Is it the exact moment you said what happened? No, but you said in this episode that Zoko would be revealed to be in the belly of a pergol. And I think you claim it. I think you take it and you run with it.

We have mentioned before. we have seen Ezra bonding with a number of animals over the course of rebels. Shout out love cats. But this is also just like a classic you know, fantasy sort of moment. John with Drogon or Eng with the Lion Turtle or, you know, Groku with the Rancourt or Paul with the Shai Halood, like whatever you decide it is.

But we got to know from Korn. Clark who said, I was wondering if Asoka communicating with the pericle at the end of this week's episode is a callback to the first episode of Tales of the Jedi. And the first episode of Tales of the Jedi, which we talked about a lot, Asoka calms a toothy predator and rides it back into her village. Yeah, rides it back into her village. That does make it less likely that this is a new power. She's always able to do this.

Consciously using. But yeah, that's there from the jump. I did like, in terms of like an evolution that the last time, because when they fly up the ghost in the T6, she goes out onto the hall again. And like when she is reaching out and closing her eyes and she looks so serene and it's such a majestic, beautiful, magical sequence. The score in the, across the all episode, but in the end of this episode is gorgeous. No, and. So, imperial? Yes, and everyone did such a good job with, uh,

the look that I like to call Spielberg face of like looking slightly up bathed in light, looking with wonder at something, right? Yes, I love it. It is Sam Neal and Laura Dern looking at a bronosaurus. You know what I mean? They're just sort of like, and they sell it perfectly. And I'm like, I know that that is digitally created. Yeah.

But like, yeah, the light, the music, the wonder, the delight. And the last time we saw her out there was to battle, right? Yeah. Yeah. To cut someone down, and this is like peace and harmony. Okay, I got a Tolkien and a Campbell, and then we're going to call it a day. Okay? So shout out to our listener, Stephanie on this front.

Let's talk about the pergill as a stand-in for Shadow Facts. When Ganof comes back and is Gan off the white, and he meets, again, Aragorn and Legolas and Gimley, and they're like, whoa, we got to go. And Gennel's like, excuse me, I'm get off the white now. He says, I shall quote, I shall not walk. Time presses, said Gandalf. Then lifting up his head, he gave a long whistle so clear and piercing was the note that the others stood amazed to hear such a sound come from those old bearded lips. Three times he whistled and then faint and far off it seemed to them that they heard the witty of a horse,

borne up from the plains upon the eastern wind. They waited, wondering, before long there came the sound of hooves. At first, hardly more than a tremor of the ground, perceptible only to Eragorn as he lay upon the grass, then growing steadily louder and clearer to a quick beat. There is more than one horse coming, said Eragorn, certainly, said Gandalf. We are too great a burden for one. That is shadow facts, said Gandalf. He is the chief of the Maras, lord of the horses, and not even Theodan, King of

Roan has ever looked a better, looked on one better. Does he not shine like silver and run as swiftly as a swift stream? As soon as Shadowfax saw Ganof, he checked his pace and whittied loudly, then trotting gently forward, he stopped his proud, he stooped his proud head, and then a little later, they talk about how Shoutifax is able to take them off a beaten path. It says there was no sign of road or track, but Shottafax did not stay or falter. Often the grass was so high, it reached above the knees of the riders, and their steeds seemed to be swimming in a gray, green sea. So this idea of Ganof the White calling the King of Horses and Asoka the White calling the largest pergol, you know. That shot of like the head of the pergol rising and looming.

And the way that they, I mean, the actual activation of the jump, that silvery language, like very, very evocative there. Totally. And the way that they're swimming, I think part of what's really cool about Cidos as a setting, like the cloud cover, I think we mentioned last, or maybe episode three that it reminded us of the, when we see like on the Who Christmas episode with all the sharks and the fish swimming, like, it does really like look like. like they're swimming in water because of the thickness of the cloud. Like those blades of grass there, the way that they move through them. It's just incredible. And from that prior passage, the lightness.

Yes. Like, not only does a sokol like is acting and behaving and feeling like that feathery way when she's out on the hall of the T6, like the jubilation. Oh, the lightness of spirit. Yeah, the lightness of spirit. Exactly. And Hoh Yang's like, maybe you should come inside and she's like, okay, I guess. You know, how that could it be?

Sure. How that could it be inside of the belly of a burgle? I, you know, we talked already earlier about because like the closing of this episode as they're right before they jump is like what feels like a parting. We had talked the last couple weeks. Was it possible? It would be the last we saw of Hara. This is the first time that I'm like maybe that's possible now. This did feel like really they were saying farewell to each other for a minute here.

We talked already about that. I'll find them, I promise. and how palpable that distinction is between I'm trying to stop Thron versus rescue and save and preserve the people we love. But before that, we get another exchange where we can really feel, feel, hear, see, sense the difference in Asoka's disposition.

Steve, can we hear this? You're certain they know where speed was taken. I have no idea. What? No idea. We'll just see where it goes. It could go anywhere. I know.

That's better than going nowhere. I mean, this is so... Joyful and uplifting. This wandering day, more Tolkien. I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead. I love that. I mean, that's what this is, right? It's like the embrace of possibility, the embrace of hope.

Not being ruled by your fear, but being guided by, the belief that there's something out there to discover. This was just like, this was really moving and gratifying for Assoca fans. I loved this. Because she goes literally into the belly of the whale. Yeah. Though not exactly when I wanted her to.

We do need to talk about how. Claim the W. Inside the belly of the whale is one, literally one of the stages in Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. We love talking about Joseph Campbell on the hero's journey. But what's interesting about the belly of the whale, it fits with this episode, just not where it is in this episode. The belly of the whale is like the super ordeal,

like the nadir of what's happening. And Campbell wrote, The idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a transit into a sphere of rebirth is symbolized in the worldwide womb image of the belly of the whale. The hero instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold is swallowed into the unknown and would appear to have died. So we would say that she's already died and been rebirth, but is swallowed into this,

like, happily swallowed into this world of the unknown, right, in that she's like, where we're going. We don't need any roads. Like, I don't know where we're going, but, like, let's go. There's this other passage by this mythologist, Michael, me that I really like, sort of talking about the concept of the belly of the whale. And he says, there is an unknown territory, a mysterious area, area where the presence of death does not equal the end of life. The point is to be able to undergo a little death in order to find the genuine thread

of one's life. That's what it feels like happened to Asoka in this episode, a little death to find the thread of one's life. And of course, there's like Jonah and the whale in the Bible, the idea that like Jonah basically in the Bible, Jonah has a call to action and he refuses the call and then gets literally swallowed in the belly of the whale and is like, hey God, can you help me? And God's like, sure, but guess what? Can I answer that call this time?

And Jonah's like, yes, my faith is restored. I will do it. So this is such an interesting, like really fun, not just like a good logistical way to get us there, but just like a really fun way for Faloni to play with a really time-tested storytelling concept. I love it. Love some Campbell in my Star Wars.

It's been there since day one. George also loved Campbell in his Star Wars. Really trying to drill down on the difference between GANOth the Grey and GAN off the White Hobbits and Dragons is at gmail.com, if you have any thoughts. I think, like Jonah and the Whale, it has a lot to do with doubt versus that, like, that Ganoff the Grey, doubt. his abilities to oppose Sauron. But when he returns, he believes just purely in the purpose in the road going forward, you know? Less wracked with conflict and doubt the way that I would say the same for Asoka. So, yeah, I'm thrilled that we're here.

Delightful. Delightful. What new force powers will we see moving forward? We saw some interesting force powers today. We're going to bring on Ben to talk about it more. It is time to chat with Ben Lindberg. It is time to talk about lore. It is time to learn about some force powers,

some tantalizing ones that we saw on display in part five. Ben, hello. What are you here to talk to us about today? What are you here to tell us? Some unusual force powers, perhaps some, unnatural force powers. I don't know if I'd go that far, but unorthodox, at least.

So I guess we should start with one that we've seen multiple times in this series. Psychometry? Psychometry? Let's go with psychometry. Not to be confused with psychohistory from Foundation, which I'll be covering on the ringerverse next week. This is the power to what a tease. Beautiful.

My power. My podcast power of programming reminders. This is the power to touch an object or visit a location and see or feel or hear a force echo of some event associated with it. So we saw Asoka use this in the premiere, most notably when she goes to Sabine's base and is able to tap into what went down there. And then we saw her use it even more extensively now. So this power, which we hadn't really suspected that Asoka possessed until this series, technically a really. originated back in the old expanded universe. We know Filoni always loves to pluck things out of there and make them canon. So this came from a 1994 book called The Courtship of Princess Leia, where Han gets

jealous of a prince who's making a move on his princess. So he basically kidnaps Leia, which I did not really pick up on how problematic that was when I was reading this book as a kid. I remember it very fondly. Anyway, Luke comes in and uses this power or something like this power to follow the trail of Han emotions and track him down. But this came to canon previously in the Clone Wars season three, hunt for zero, in which the ethically edgy Jedi master, Quinlan Voss, uses psychometry to find Jabba's uncle Zero the hut by connecting to a cop, Zero used. So sometimes it's like a dog picking up someone scent, basically.

But we've seen this a few other times. In The Force Awakens, Ray gets drawn to Anakin's lightsaber and sees a bunch of visions when she touches it, and later it's confirmed that this was psychometry. And then in 2019, there's a young adult novel called Force Collector, and the same year, Jedi Fallen Order comes out and Calcestis uses psychometry liberally. So there's a reference book that came out a few years ago called The Star Wars Book. It does what it says on the cover. Strong SEO.

I love it. Yeah. And that book says some force abilities require years of training, a form of instinctual aptitude, or a very strong connection to the force to access, a small number of force users, including Ray and Calcasters, have the rare ability of psychometry, which allows them to learn about people or events

by touching an object associated with them. So the implication always was that you had to have an inherent gift for this, that you could then cultivate. And at least with Asoka, we haven't seen that before. So I think there are a couple interesting things here. First, there's a little bit of a dark side tinge to this power. in the sense that if you say touch a weapon that was used in a violent way, you might feel what the weapons wielder felt and that might lead you down the dark path. So there's just a bit of a risk that some more straight-laced Jedi might not take, which goes along with Asoka not following standard Jedi protocol.

Second, some people weren't pleased that Asoka suddenly developed this ability or at least demonstrated it for the first time in our knowledge, despite not. showing any previous aptitude for it. The idea being she's not like Ray. She's been formally trained. This would have shown up previously at some point. And not only does it potentially hem you in going forward, because now you can always wonder, well, wasn't she just do some psychometry here. But you can also go back and say, hey, why didn't she do this when she was, say, being blamed for attacking the Jedi Temple? This would have come in handy then. She could have used it to help her figure out who the real culprit was. But maybe it goes hand-in-hand with her teaching of Sabine and the philosophy of Faloni in this show that with enough focus and

practice, maybe anyone, especially someone with Asoka's force sensitivity, can learn to do something. So I'll ask you this from a storytelling perspective. Would you too rather that any force power was theoretically open to anyone who wields the force? Or do you like the idea that certain abilities are off limits to certain characters? Like, you can't learn to be a warg in Game of Thrones, right? But you can learn to be an animagus in Harry Potter if you have magical ability. But there are other things that you can't learn. You can't learn to be a metamorph magus, right?

So do you like this idea that certain people just have certain powers that get expressed? or do you like this idea that maybe you can just learn anything eventually? I think at this point the force is so messy with love that I don't think it's too late to be like, you're only an airbender and you're only a waterbender and you're only a firebender. I think to take your potter example or a number of other examples, I like the idea of having like an aptitude for something. Like, oculom and sea comes easy to me. Like, you know, I have an aptitude for it.

but anyone could do it if they study hard enough, but it's just natural, comes naturally to me, something like that. That's how I feel about it too. And I think because that feels like an extension of the overall democratic idea, nature of the force. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree. I think the only thing I like about the idea of certain powers or reserve for certain people is I like the idea of getting a team together like you're planning a heist. So you've got to collect the right people

with the right force power. You've got to get the person who senses force echoes and the person who can talk to whales and the person who can probe people's minds and then they all play a part in executing the scheme. That would be fun. But that's my only note. Well, you could still do that because human nature is not necessarily to embrace and learn everything that is potentially on offer for you. Yeah, and related question, and you were just alluding to this, Joe, at least in live action, we've seen a little more creativity when it comes to. force powers in recent years, kind of taken the reins off a little bit.

We've seen healing and stasis and projection. Do you prefer for force powers to be pretty clearly laid out and strictly prescribed? Like, here are the approved powers a Jedi can have. You got your force push and pull and you got your mind tricks and chokes and super strength and speed and coordination, or is it more anything ghosts

if you put your mind to it and size matters not, et cetera? Yeah, I agree. I love the, well, you ask me a question, and I will just agree with what I already said, which is that I like the anything goes sort of approach. Some force powers can just like quietly go away, though, like the force zoomies. One of my least ever things. Those can go away. But yeah, I like the idea. We were talking earlier in the pot about the way in which Dave Filoni specifically is. really interested in pushing on the boundaries of the force and how we define it and what it means. So I don't mind continuously finding new ways in which the force can be deployed. Yeah. I'm with you. It's everywhere. It's in everything. Why not? Why not? Yeah. If it's supposed to be the energy that surrounds us and binds all things would be pretty weird if we can only use it to push people. Yeah. That would be strange. Yeah. I like the wider power of powers. I like when the Jedi just bust out something unprecedented or at least something we

rarely see. I guess my only reservation is that I like the variety, but you still have to maybe kind of keep some limits on the power or the magnitude of it, because you could get yourself into trouble, sort of like a superhero power problem where you end up saying, well, why doesn't this person just automatically beat that person, or why don't they just use this argument ender, this battle under, you know? You mean, Carol Danvers has been in space since the 90s and Assoca is about to go to a galaxy farther, further away, because she's too powerful. Right. Yeah, if we couldn't just project himself, but if he could just snap his fingers

and wipe away everyone from across the galaxy, then that might reduce some of the tension and conflict and drama. Sometimes you see a force wielder will just use the force to stop a ship from flying away or to bring down a ship. And then every time a ship gets away, you wonder, well, why didn't they just do that thing that happened that other time? So that can kind of get you in trouble. But generally I agree. So that takes us to the next power that we saw here, which kind of goes by the term taming beasts. Not that they always have to be beasts, but this is basically a Vulcan mine meld with animals, which we see Asoka pull off with the pergul here. And this is more along the lines of certain force-wielders have an aptitude for this. It's not so much

in the psychometry category of certain people can or can't do this. You have some natural affinity for it. You can get better at it. So we've seen Cal can do this too. Obi-Wan can do this. Anakin initially struggles with this, which makes sense because it's hard for him not to be controlling. And we've seen Grogu do it too.

We've seen him do it with the rank core, Boba's Rancourt, right? So I think the key here with this ability is that it's kind of a collaborative thing. It's not dominating the animal. It's not controlling, really. It's opening yourself up and being open to this other creature and developing a sort of bond as opposed to imposing your will. And that can get a bit hazy too and it can turn into sort of a dark side thing if you go a little bit. too far, but when used appropriately, obviously Ezra, of course, has an ability to do this too. And I think, again, this is a case of Asoka being granted this skill, not recently in terms of her

life or her timeline, but in terms of our awareness of her character, because we see her do this in Tales of the Jedi when she's just a baby, she gets taken away by basically a, saber-toothed tiger, and it's going to take a chump out a little baby Asoka, which was very tough for me to watch as a new dad at the time. But it goes okay because she's able to do the taping of the beasts without any training, just has some natural affinity for this, and then she ends up riding the saber-tooth back into town. So I guess you could say maybe Faloni was already thinking at that time in retrospect, hey, I'm going

I'm going to need her to talk to whales soon. So let me add this one to her repertoire, right? So I guess if you have concerns about does she just have every power now or some other problem presents itself, are we just going to give her whatever power she needs to get out of that? But hey, she's powerful. She's been through a lot. She's traveled the galaxy.

Who knows what she's been up to in the last decade or so. She could have learned these powers or cultivated these powers. So I don't have a huge problem with it. But I guess it's kind of convenient that this happened shortly before she needed. this because a lot of us were thinking she would need help from someone to talk to the Pericles. Oh, someone's small and green. Perhaps.

Yeah. Gumdrop. We miss you. Yes. Green all over or green hair, some green somewhere. Right? Yeah. And then the last semi-unusual power that we see Asoka demonstrate here is essentially force eavesdropping.

Right. So we saw her do this in this series when. she's waiting in the med bay in the hospital after Sabine gets stabbed. Of course, she makes a quick recovery because everyone does from lightsaber stab wounds these days. But before she wakes up, we see Asoka standing at the window and Sabine's dreaming. And Asoka's pretty clearly picking up on those dreams. And I don't know if this is a distinct power exactly. I don't know if force dream overhearing is a separate power. Sometimes these force skills kind of blend together, right?

It's a spectrum. But I guess this goes together with a lot of other things we've seen Jedi do. You can find some precedent for Jedi doing almost anything at this point. It's been decades, right? And a lot of people have needed Jedi to do things to get out of a plot problem. And in this case, we've seen Jedi be sensitive to people. Obviously, they can sense disturbances in the force. They can sense sort of surface emotions in people who are close to them who are experiencing strong emotions in particular.

So this is another case where it's kind of a light side, dark side spectrum because we've seen the more strictly defined mind probe ability, which is more just like, hey, I'm going to stretch out my hand and put it over your head and just root around. in there and take out what I want. Whereas this isn't quite like that. This is more like the nice version of that, like taming beasts instead of controlling or dominating the beasts. And in this case, it's not even clear that Asoka is trying to do this. She's just like, hey, I was to stand in there and you were dreaming really loudly. So I happened to over here, couldn't help but pick up on those dreams that you were just having.

So I guess you could chalk it up to Sabine not being trained. not being conscious. She's just been through a lot. She's having nightmares. She's re-experiencing a traumatic event. And Asoka's standing right there at the time. And I guess she couldn't help it over here. But maybe this is again sort of a sign of her grayness,

because this was before she transformed into wearing a white cloak. But she mentioned that she didn't follow standard Jedi protocol when she extracted information. from Morgan somehow about where the map was and everything, right? So you wondered at the time, that sounds sort of sketchy. What did she do? Did she do a Kylo here? Or did she just ask some leading questions and Morgan cracked immediately? But that just kind of makes you think, you know, at least she could have maybe put a privacy filter up or something. Like maybe she could discreetly look away from the dream, shut down the dream if she wanted to. And she was like, I'll just let this happen.

So maybe, again, it's sort of a sign of her not being bound by the standard Jedi protocol. Do you know who else can Dreampeep? I'll read you a little quote. It goes like this. You've talked long in your sleep, Frodo, said Gandalf gently. And it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory. What's the Lord of the Rings quote count up to in this episode? No comment.

Can't wait to find out. I will just say that... Near a constant. Often when we talk about the force, there's like, oh, boy, this sounds great. I don't want anyone dream peeping on me. No, dream peepin. No. It seems rude.

It seems impolite. That's my time. I don't think you can consent to being dream peeped upon. So, yeah. No, there are definitely things I would not want people to see in my dreams or anyone. Wow. So, wow. So you and Es,

You guys like talking a lot about brother and sister, but... Oh, no. Search your feelings. You know it to be true. Oh, no. Oh, boy. Okay. Thank you for this lesson.

Who knows what we'll see next? Who knows what the force powers will be on the other side of our purgle journey? Anything can happen. Exciting. I can't wait to find out. We'll see you then, bud. All right. Time for Easter eggs.

Joanna still 75% original parts. So many Easter eggs in this episode, which was your favorite? Um, gosh. How do I pick? Great question. We're about to find out. I mean, this is just absolutely, oh yeah, sure.

In honor of my animated boyfriend, Mall Super Commandos. Good. I was hoping you were going to pick that. Mine's Captain Rex. Yeah. Seeing Rex was just the thrill of a lifetime. Of a lifetime.

Great stuff. And they were like back to back. There you go. A little basket of delightfully Easter eggs for us. Okay. You know what it's time for? Whigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson. TM.

Do you wear wigs? As if we hadn't made enough Lord of the Rings deletious today. All right. We got some contributions here. Courtney wrote in for wigwatch to say, if Asoka without her headband isn't this week's wig watch, I'll be Hannah Waning him. you with a shame bell.

It was like seeing Matt Smith with eyebrows. So subtle, so disconcerting all at once. Please never take the handbag band back off. So that's one. If you don't know, Hannah wanting to play the shame none in Game of Thrones. Okay. Also, we got to talk about Hayden. Yeah.

Yep. I loved the first wig. the Clone Wars era wig, the short wig, was amazing. That's great. Incredible. Dashing and delightful. You're like a Soco the White right now. You're like, this euphoria.

It was a wonderful wig. We get so few of them. We never hear to praise. We're usually here to bury a wig. Oh, God. A remand to the Sith wig, slightly less resplendent, I would say. And there's especially a part where he sort of like, like throws his head forward and then throws it back. And the Revenge of the Sith wig gets like really poofy.

It's just like, anyway. And then a listener Katie has decided, we've already alluded to this a couple times, but I think it's worth saying again. Our listener Katie decided to include an accent corner smuggle into wig watch this week, right? And she says, Hayden's Canadian accent coming through in the SaaS Queen, Anakin Skywalker line. Is that what this is about? So, yeah. A little accent corner in your wig watch this week. I love it.

I love it. Just like I love thinking about what we would see if this show had Netflix subtitles. Oh, cute. Oh, God. I'm going back to the OG inspiration, which of course was, in The Stranger Things Days, flesh descends wetly. I'm going with a short, quick beat. I usually have like a 75 word.

I know. Usually dazzle by you. Younglings recede sheepishly. When Atticant's like, is that what this is about? I'm just thinking, if we had the descriptions of this episode, all the younglings, all of them before they were cut down, just shrinking back

into the fog. What's yours? Freshly reborn for user blasted with a millennia's worth of space krill breath. What do you think that pergill, pergill grinned smelled like? Well, we know the pergill eat gas, so it doesn't bode well. I don't think it smells great.

I've decided to space krill as well. Space krill and gas. Oh, I love it. I think it smells terrible. I think those little needle teeth are, there's a lot of opportunities for gas pockets in the crevasses of those teeth. I know if there's one thing I know about. If there are two things I know about, you love an ocean vista, but you hate a crevice. I do.

I love an ocean vista, and I absolutely abhor a crevice. That baby. Not what is meant. Wow. For once that wasn't what we meant. That is Steve out of pocket. To borrow a midnight boy is of transgression. Hilarious.

All right. Final segment. We are here to discuss our past. It has been how many days since? See, that's what I like about you, Mando. That big smile of yours lets you get away with anything. We set that clock. This is extraordinary.

Mallory, how many days has it been since we've seen Sabine's Loth, Cat? I regret to inform you. It has been 24 days since we have been with Sweet Buba Sabine's Lothcat. How many elevator rides has the Lothcat managed in that time? Who the fuck is feeding the cat? All right. And it is my absolute displeasure to inform you that it has been 583 days since we've seen Outrageous.

Van. It's outrageous. We have another new addition. Will it be designed? by next week, tune in to find out. Lauren has asked us to add

her animated boyfriend, Grand Admiral Thrawn. She's like, keep your Obi-Wans, keep your Darth Mals, I love them blue and mean. Grand Admiral Thron,

how many days has it been since we last saw Lauren's animated boyfriend? It has been 2,020 days since we last saw Grand Admiral Thron, not counting trailers, obviously. On our television screens.

My goodness. I do think that will be a, do we thank Lauren? On our television. I think this will be a one week. Calling your shot? A one week. Okay. Thron next week.

Are we riot? Yes. Yeah. No, not are we riot? I'll say like, I was, as you know, firmly, not in the we need him by episode like four, but I just thought that's what would happen. because they showed him in the trailer. And I'm like, why reveal that they're going to reach them if it doesn't have it soon?

But, and I'm as eager as I am for Thron to join the party, because as you know, I'm a Thron head. I love Thron. Can't wait to be with Throne. I'm thrilled the throne is coming. It is a credit to the show that the last few weeks have given us ample material in his stead. I'm not like, wow, we didn't get thrown in four. How dare they? Wow, we didn't get thrown in five.

No. No, that's not how I feel about it. but I do think we'll see him next week. Don't you? No? Yes? Maybe. Possibly.

I'm okay with it, but like I really am like longing for Bailen. That's who I am. I know. I really did like miss being with Bailin this week. I can't wait to be back with Bailin. Bailin and House Hottie bring them back. Who knows what we'll get in episode six? Who knows how long next week's deep dive will be?

We know that we've reached the conclusion of today's podcast. So we are off to listen to. the waves. This had to be long. And last week had to be long. This was an all-timer. This was like next week, well, right.

And this is Dave Filoni's opus this episode. All right. Thank you to our favorite force-wielders, Steve Allman for producing this episode. Arjana-Ga-Ga-Paul, first additional production work on this episode. And Jomea-Den-R-Anne, first work on the social for this episode.

Remember, head back into the ring reverse. Next week, multiple times. Monday, Foundation Season 2, Wednesday, the midnight, and maybe Tuesday night, the Midnight Boys instant reaction to Asoka, episode six, Friday, button mash. Over here on the House of Our Feed, Tuesday, Asoka and Star Wars mailbag, send your general Star Wars, big picture Star Wars questions. Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com.

Next Friday, we will be here for our deep dive into Asoka Part 6. It could go anywhere. But remember, that's better than going nowhere.