House of R - 'Alien: Earth' Episode 5 Deep Dive. Plus: Noah Hawley and Babou Ceesay!

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Mal, Jo, and Rob come together to dive deep into Episode 5 of ‘Alien: Earth’! First, they catch up on how Jo is liking the season so far. Then, they talk about the decision to put a mini ‘Alien��� movie inside the show, the revelations about Morrow’s history, and more. Later, Mal and Jo are joined by showrunner Noah Hawley and the actor who plays Morrow, Babou Ceesay, to talk all about this intense episode! (00:00) Intro(09:07) Jo’s Episode 1-4 Takes(34:10) A Mini ‘Alien’ Movie in our TV Show!(59:23) Morrow’s History(01:06:48) The Boy/Petrovich Reveal(01:08:20) Please Pick the Worst Way to Die(01:29:07) Humans: We Have Some Notes(01:33:43) Aliens: We Stand in Awe(01:41:24) Noah Hawley and Babou Ceesay Hosts: Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, and Rob MahoneyGuests: Noah Hawley and Babou CeesayProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and John RichterSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to let me know that two of the clam things got out, you know, the octopus with the long fingers, it's probably going to be fine. It's Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney. It's a team up. my God. Truly. Everyone's here to be murdered systematically on a spaceship. Folks, I've missed you. I've been gone so happy back in this cousin marrying shithole valley.

You fuck cows. I've got some notes from Boy Cavalier on how he recruits talent. The pitch is not great. Let's be honest with you. That's a hangout from me right there. And yet it worked. So maybe we have notes for Petrovich at the end of the day. Joanna, darling, we missed you terribly.

It is wonderful to emerge from our cryopods together to discuss Alien Earth episode five. What an episode to reunite for. Yeah, big one. We've got a lot of fun stuff to get to today. The three of us are going to break down episode five in space. No one. Dat, da, dot, dot. That's what it's called.

Great stuff. I love it. You know, that was one of the first things that Noah Holly wrote down. Oh, yeah. I'm going to call an episode in space. No one dot, dot, dot. And I can't fucking wait. No one can hear you fucking Bronsky in a random corner of the...

Turns out they can, unfortunately. Everyone has seen the top. Cremates are filming you. Clem, Clem always listening. Not good, Clem. Not good, Clem. We need to clear something up right up top. Look, the footage is a little grainy.

Everyone has seen the sex tape. Yeah. I need you both to assure me that that is not the alien egg and facehugger containment room. Oh, they're fucking. anywhere that there's a flat surface. You have to. What were you going to do? Fuck with your cryopods?

I could really tell because it looked similar to the other room on the video. So it does seem like they were fucking there. But there also seemed to be a cot involved. Was there, I thought they were just on the cold floor on like a blanket. Oh, okay. I think we can at least had like a cot. Listen, there's that moment where Clem says tomorrow. Yeah, like, you know, the last eight months, they have fucked everywhere.

There is not a corner of the Maginot where they have not fucked. They have quarters. Like Morrow went to his quarters to read all of his sad letters from his daughter. They have rooms they could fuck it. But it's taboo. They're clearly trying to hide it, which I understand. But all of this means, like, at some point, the eyeball jockey has watched them fuck. Of course, no question.

They're making the same mistake that Arthur and Dame Sylvia made in episode four. Thinking there's a corner of view of the cameras, you know? I'm sure that their quarters are monitored. So they're like, we need to go somewhere where, you know. If Bronsky If they had sex in the lab Yeah I would like to formally retract what I can

Can only describe as a screed That I have prepared for Chibuzzo And her lab protocols They're not great Completely unacceptable She's an angel if Someone actually like fucked in that lab at one point With all the creepy crawlies

And the slithering I don't know if they're fucking in the lab But certainly the zoo You know the storage container area Like someone is fucking near a tentacle at some point. No question. Yeah. What are you going to do?

You're in space for 65 years. You have a broom. You have a broom. That's all I'm saying. It's true. Look, over those 65 years, everybody's kinks are intensifying, including the eyeball monster. So I salute all of them. I would take a big episode for eyeball jockey.

I would take close quarters in the cryopod before I would take, you know, next to a tentacle. The thing about the cryop pod is I think. Cryopod for two? Come on. It's fine. That's adorable. Despite what Tang would have us all believe. It's just too close to your.

crewmates to be, I think, acceptable. Well, if the rest of them are sneezing, he'll never know. Let me ask you guys this. Do you have the power to obliterate from my mind the sentence, do your filth? Oh, no. While she sleeps. Because I would like to remove that forever. We should issue our spoiler warning.

It should happen in Alien Earth, Episode 5. It could come up today. If it has happened to this point in this season of Alien Earth, it could, of course, come up today. anything that's ever happened in an alien film could come up today. We have not watched ahead in the season, so we do not know what is still to come in the final episodes of Alien Earth, and thus will not be talking about any of that. We will, however, later today, be talking to Noah Hawley himself and Babu Sise, who plays Morrow. Joe and I are going to be chatting with them both

at the end of this episode, so stay tuned for that. We're going to talk about some of what we saw and learned and witnessed in episode five and just the season to date so far. So very much looking forward to that chat. We actually have not spoken to them yet at the time of this recording. It went well. It went really well. I'm just going to assume it went great. It was great. It's just going to assume it went great.

Listen, guys, this is a meeting, not a meal. So before we dive in, we do have some quick programming reminders that we need to hit. It's a big one. The second pod this week on House of VAR is Buffy. It's about damn time, y'all. Can I just say, oh. Can I just say that? The situation requires it, I have to say.

When I had the just absolute delight and pleasure of mainlining six hours of YouTube podcasting together over the last 48 hours, there was a stretch when Valerie was talking about someone being immortal and someone being mortal and them having to reconcile with the fact that how could they have this brother-sister relationship. And I'm like, yeah, it's Buffy and Angel, it's Buffy and Angel, it's Buffy and Angel. And Rob Mahoney came through. And he said it. This is classic Buffy and Angel stuff, which we will talk about.

on our Buffy rewatch podcast as we go forward. Very exciting. I can't wait. Thrilled for that, looking forward to it immensely. Season one coming later this week, my first watch. Well, now I've actually seen it twice. Joe's Billionth Watch. Yes.

You guys have a lot cooking this week on the Prestige TV podcast as well. Tell everybody what they can look forward to. Rob. I'm most looking forward to our future at this point as a recording hooked episode about the one and only Veronica Mars. I just spent a lot of time thinking and watching, thinking about and watching Veronica Mars this weekend in preparation, and I'm very excited to talk about it.

Yeah, so Hooked is continuing with an episode on Veronica Mars, which we were really excited about. And then Bill and Rob and I already recorded our first episode about the new HBO series, Task, which is debuting Sunday. And I'm really excited. That was a really, really fun conversation. And that show fucking rules. And I'm really excited for people to check it out.

Look, there's room enough on this corner for two shows happening simultaneously. And if Alien Earth is the show of the late summer, I mean, I would think that Task is going to be the show of the fall. It's really set of self. It's Ruffalo Fall. It's always Ruffalo Fall. Ruffalo. No. Yep.

Actually, I'll allow it. Yes. Thank you. Certainly. this was that question. I can't wait. Big Sunday night coming in this household. Ravens on Sunday night football to open the season.

Then I get to watch task and then I get to listen to you guys. Thrilling. Great stuff. I'm happy for two of those things. Apologies on the third. But you know, you can't win them all. Is that a Ravens slam?

No, that was an us slam. I think it was a self-deprecating. I know. I was going to say, Rob, what are you doing talking about football? You don't know anything about that. Wouldn't know how to do it. Oh, man. How can everyone follow along listening people know?

at this point, but let's say it quickly anyway. Follow the pods. Follow House of our, follow the Prestige TV podcast. Once it's hoops season again, follow the Ringer NBA show so that you can check out group chat. You can watch full video episodes of House of Ravar and the Prestige TV podcast on Spotify. Right there in the app, wonderful stuff. You can also, of course, follow along on YouTube, subscribe to the Ringrverse YouTube channel and the Ringer TV YouTube channel. And then follow us on the social media platform if you're choosing and who are we to tell you what that is. Go where you'd like. Send us your emails while you're there.

While you're at your computer, your phone is in your hand. The inbox is open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Anything else on the programming reminders front before we dive in? Not a single thing. Let's do it. All right, guys, I know two things. I know that half a pie is not a whole pie.

Definitively. And you cannot deceive me into believing otherwise again. And I know that it's. It's time to pod. So let's get to our opening snapshot. Today's opening snapshot is all about Joanna and it's all about the past. We need to catch up. We need a little table-setting taste of the takes so far.

What have you thought, forget episode five. We've got time for that. What have you thought of episodes one through four of Alien Earth? What takes do you need to get off your chest or out of your chest through the rib cage, whatever the case may be? They're positively bursting out of me. Thank you so much for asking. I have a few segments that I would like to include here.

The first and most important is Joanna Robinson's favorite things about podcasting with Ron Mahoney and Mallory Rubin. I will go through this quickly, but I have things to say. First of all, both of you love to plus a bit. If I've ever bitted anything before my life, you two will take the ball, be it a basketball, a baseball or football, and you will run with it. And that is great. Speaking of balls,

Rob has taught me so much about the NBA. Mallory has taught me so much about baseball, and that matters a lot to me. I can, in fact, name at least three current baseball players, and they all play for the Baltimore Orioles. So thank you, Mallory Rubin. You're welcome. Rob, thank you for continuing to encourage my foray into NBA podcasting.

I appreciate you. I think you, Anderson, really, honestly. Not to interrupt you, Joe, but one of my all-time favorite moments podcasting is the moment where you discovered on Mike that there were two separate Bogdanovichs in the NBA. It was incredible and tough. Seems unlikely.

Mallory Rubin enjoys a pint of ice cream and it is a pint-sized person and she makes me feel very tall and I like that about her. Rob is a freakishly tall person and makes me feel short and I like that about him. Rude but okay. All of this is true. Mallory is usually a few minutes early to a recording. Rob is usually a few minutes late.

So what if you usually makes me feel early and what if you usually makes me feel late? And I like that about both of you. Mallory usually loves things a bit, just a bit more than I do, and that always pulls me into the direction of loving them. Rob, I find, is often more critical of things than I am. Not Alien Earth. He loves Alien Earth. I do love Alien Earth. But sometimes Rob, it tends to be a bit more critical than I am, and I like that because it challenges my opinions. This guy loves an eyeball, Jackie.

It's true. Mallory makes the most exquisite notes I've ever seen in my entire life the most exquisite, in-depth, incredible notes ever. Rob hates looking at my notes. and prefers to go off the dome, and I love that about him as well. I love that about both of you. Rob, however, loves to read listener emails, and I love that about Rob. And, like, most of all, I just feel so comfortable podcasting with both of you. And I was so sad to not get to do the first three episodes of covering this show with you guys. And I'm so excited that I get to do this one with you. So thank you so much for covering for me while I was gone. I really appreciate you.

So much. That was beautiful. I miss you dearly. We're delighted to be back with you. Y'all are the best. Okay, couple things that, couple things that I scribbled out, I got to play the part of a bad baby, listening to you to have a conversation, be like, um, but wait, what about, okay, you covered everything perfectly. You've got every, every little corner covered. I just want to plus a few things. I want to say, in the West World Reference Corner, I think there's a lot, like, a lot of people talked about sort of like the Blade Runner, especially since Tim Lephan is looking a lot, like, like Badi and Blade Runner in this show. A lot of the like Blade Runner conversations about replicants and what makes a human a human and all that sort of stuff like that. I would say, especially given the like various synth hybrid faces on the wall, this is a very Westworld coded season for me, this idea of bootstrapping consciousness, techno billionaires trying to crack immortality by putting a human brain inside of a synthetic body, all that sort of

stuff is like classic iconic Westworld. Everything went totally fine in Westworld. So don't worry about it. It's going to be absolutely fine. I thought you were going to say wall of faces, go to Bravo. Also, everything there went fine. Again. Absolutely fine.

Okay. Lost, a TV show that Rob is about to watch his first two episodes of, as we do hooked ongoing. He's going to be watching the Lost pilot. General spoilers for Lost. I'm so sorry to do this. I'm literally right here. It has nothing to do with the pilot.

It's episode three actually. Okay. That's early enough. I will just say the character of Curley, who is the only child we meet in a wheelchair at the start of this, being the one child who is like, this is fucking great actually, and I love it, is very John Lockeoted for me.

And I just, I was really interested to, like, it's so interesting to meet the lost boys, find out where they're all sort of going on their journeys and then go back and rewatch that introductory scene where they're all, you know, in their little kid bodies and sort of like what are the one or two lines that they're given there to help us, you know. I mean, Isaac is just straight up like, I want to be a scientist. So some of them are like more subtle than others. But there's all of that. And then to go back to sort of like the West Road Beach, I would say, I would say Nibs as like the glitcher. The glitch kid is very important to a story like this.

So loving all of that, quick fly journey over to Peter Pan Corner and then I have Theory Corner and then we're done here. We can talk about episode five. First of all, what are these technocrats, if not pirates plundering a ship washed up on their shores for its treasure? Secondly, I don't think you guys covered this, but maybe you did, but the fact that Arthur and Sylvia are named after the real-life parents of the Welland Davies kids who are the inspiration for Peter Pan and the Lost Boys and stuff like that, I think is a really fun moment. But what I think is really interesting is her name, is her first name Dame? Is that what's happening with Dame Sylvia?

Because it's Arthur Sylvia. Sylvia is his last name. So is her first name Dame? If so, that's just interesting. I think it is. I don't think this is Dame Helen Mirren. No. this is Dame Sylvia.

First name, Dame, last name Sylvia. Fascinating. Okay. It was too on the nose to name her Nana after. She's a feeder bad reference front. Couldn't actually name her after the canine caretaker. Okay. And then just a couple of things that they've hit on the, like Mallory, I've been revisiting

the text. This notion of like what children hear in terms of like what Wendy can hear. There's Wendy being able to hear fairies, right? In the book, she says, the only sound I hear is the tinkle of bells. Well, that's tink. That's the fairy language. I think I hear her too. Like this idea that children can hear fairies, but adults can't.

And also, in describing Neverland, the narrator in the book, says, we too have been there. We can still hear the sound of the surf, though we shall land no more. So this idea of, like, what you have access to as children, this idea that, like, the reason their children in adult bodies is because their brains are, are spongy enough in order to make the transition. And that's so much of what Peter Pan is about is like, you have access to Neverland as a child that you don't have access to as an adult because your brain solidifies. And Peter has no interest in you if you're an adult at all.

Well, Joe, so, I mean, we and Boy Cavalier have been wondering if the xenomorph is in fact the crocodile. But what your book presupposes is that the xenomorph is in fact Tinkerbell? Why not both? Because in that scene, he's definitely making a Wendy's hook comp, but also we know that Morrow is also hook. So I feel like we are just plundering this literary illusion for every sort of reference we can get.

On that friend of Peter's not interested in you if you grow up, this idea of Peter and the New and Boy Cavalier in the New, this accusation that Arthur flings at him of like, you're just interested in this shiny new tech, which though we get more information about this in episode five, the communique that happened with the master. it doesn't change the fact that he is distracted by shiny new things to explore. And that is iconic Peter Pan.

I love this passage from the book where when they're flying for the first time and they keep falling because they keep falling asleep, they don't know how to fly. And Peter saves them. But that says he always waited until the last moment. You felt like it was his cleverness that interested in him and not the saving of human life. Also, he was fond of variety. And the sport that engrossed him one moment would suddenly cease to engage him. So there was always the possibility that the next time you fell, he would let you go.

So if that's not Boy Cavalier, I don't know what is. Like, it's just a perfect example of, of, he's going to pat himself on the back for the cost of human life. But like, what does he actually care about? What is shiny and new? Also, something that I think people don't remember about Peter Pan, especially if you've just seen the, like, Disney-Fide version that he decides to put on the ceiling, like they're at the dentist's office. that Peter kills the lost boys when they get too old inside of the book of Peter Pan

like they get killed Peter feels like a spoiler when they seem to be growing up which is against the world Peter thins them out is what it says so that feels potentially spoiler for the end of the season I think possibly

could see some of that and then on the like slightly I guess sympathetic to Peter Pan Boy Cavalier, I will just say this. This idea that, like, boy has expressed a couple times these sentiments that you guys have been asking whether or not they're, like, genuine, this sort of maybe slight wistfulness for actual connection and this idea that he is sort of waving through the window,

like separated by looking through the eyes of his hybrid robot who's looking through an age of. who was looking at her brother, like all the ways in which he is removed or on the other side of glass or a screen from something, there's this passage about Peter. He had ecstasies innumerable that other children can never know, but he was looking through the window at one joy from which he must be forever barred. And so I just love this idea that like there is genuinely something in Boy, because there has to be something in Boy Cavalier that is human and is yearning underneath all the layers of absolute shitbaggery that we're experiencing.

So that's Jamberry Corner. I have a lot of thoughts about how this literary illusion is being used, and you guys have done such a good job tracking it. Last but on least, Theory Corner, you know, I love a theory. You know, I can't help myself. You guys have been really crushing it on Theory Corner. I'm going to pose a couple questions to you guys to see what you think. Do you think it's interesting?

If Adam, who are sort of the heavy, who works at Prodigy, who displays incredible reflexes in catching a ball in episode four, do you think it is interesting if he is a secret synth? No, not in this franchise. I think that's like feels played out and not surprising anymore. I think it's actually more interesting if people we think might be secret synths aren't and are just people. Like, I don't know I don't know that it's off the table for anybody to be a secret since I just don't think

we, like, well, I'd be like, okay. Sure. Yeah. All right. What do you think, Rob? I think that's the answer is like, how big do they play it? If it's played as a huge dramatic reveal, it's like, all right, and continue,

like, what is the resonance of that? But if it's just a turn in the plot, I could be down for it. I just, I don't want it to be, I don't want there to be much ado about it. I agree. I agree. We'll see how interested a xenomorph might be in him.

to continue to track that. I'm interested in him. I would love the Adam's standalone episode. The snuggy shout out. I mean, it was just really historic stuff. He knows his history. I think there are some theories that he, you know, he says something about like a product no one wanted

and sort of some people are wondering if he means that in reference to himself. Okay. Will Boy Cavalier get got with the sheep's eye, which is something that, of course, you guys have talked about. But here's my hope for the eyeball jockey, as you like to call him. The eye, spidey, as I've been calling him in my notes. She. We got the big reveal.

Women just out there killing it. They can't have it all, including an eyeball socket. Unlike hermit, I did not clock the gender of the critter right away. I do apologize. First of all, do we think she's, do we know she's evil, is my question? question about the eyeball. As far as I'm concerned, she was living her life, captured, enslaved, put into a tank and made a freak. I have no evidence to suggest that she's done anything wrong.

We have this, we don't know that she killed the cat. We know that she embodied the cat. Yeah. Right? But maybe the cat was already dead. We don't know that. We don't know that she killed Schmoole because we meet Schmoul in this episode already inhabited, but we don't watch

how he died. So that's a question that I have. I feel like the eyeball jockey, my inference is that the eyeball jockey can't take over a dead brain. Great, great point. What about a dying brain? The synapses have to What about a dying brain? I think is probably fair

game. We're going to talk about it a little bit more detail, but there's a moment inside of this episode where she knocks on the glass. Yes, to distract. Malar's interpretation was to distract. My interpretation was to warn. I thought she was like, hey, what's going on with the, that's my interpretation, is that she's like,

check out what's happening. Oh, I thought it was like, this is definitively the moment to like distract to ensure blood slug can shit the ass ticks into the water and like then we can open free. I'm not sure that I agree with that because of the later antagonistic

with the xenomorph. I don't know that she's on the side of the monsters. Well, you're assuming that the xenomorph and the blood slugs are on the same team. Yeah, I know, exactly. Yeah. I think they might all be like, we can unite with each other,

but not the xenomorph, and that's one more way to cement that it's this like utter apex. Like, not to say the word predator when predators, of course, are also opposed to the xenomorph, excuse me, for all the alien versus predator heads out there.

But yeah, like, I like the idea, actually that like blood slug and eyeball jockey and maybe flora fauna thingy would team up with each other, but never with the xenomorph. because that is like the ultimate foe. That I think would be fun. But it's certainly...

I just, I like the idea of her being like, excuse me, have you noticed that the slugs aren't getting out? It are about to shit little ticks into your water. Have you noticed that? That's the thing, the delicacy of the tap. Yeah. Did seem a little bit like,

I'm with you, Jill. Like, I read it on First Watch as a warning. I don't know how to change that interpretation, given all the we know now over the rest of the episode, but it did kind of feel that way a little bit. And so on the sheep's... eye front. By the way,

the sheep's eye, an antiquated phrase I love, which just means to look longingly and lovingly at someone, give them the sheep's eye. So the fact that like this sheep's eye is looking malevolently at everyone is interesting. But most malevolently at boy, which I think is right, right? That she's blocking who is the shittiest person in the room.

There's that great shot of boys' face reflected in the glass and one half. shaded so it's just eye to eye sort of looking. I'm wondering if in the rule of like Chekhov's whatever, if having seen her operate a body kind of shittily in the way that she did with Shmul, but she's constantly learning, is there a way in which she can inhabit a body and learn how to talk it people don't know? And is there any way in which she could run Boy Cavalier's body? I just will say, Samuel Blinken has quite wide eyes, quite bulgy eyes. You're saying it's good real estate.

I'm just saying there's a lot of socket for her to have it there. And if she, like the alien, an independence day, learns how to manipulate the vocal cords in order to make language happen and could pass. I think that would be fascinating. I mean, it definitely felt like we got the, I believe the subtitles were guttural squawking, horrifying, genuine nightmare fuel. What a true. To like make that, make Schmull's body make that sound.

So yeah, that feels like a nice bridge to eventually being able to form words and sentences. I think that the technique of entering the head cavity through the eye always leaves a bit of a mark. She needs to learn to clean up after ourselves or maybe boy starts wearing sunglasses inside. Who would say no? You know? Absolutely. I mean, there's absolutely no doubt that if boys started walking around with sunglasses, people would be like, boy, decided to start walking around with sunglasses. He's like, no shoes, yes, sunglasses.

That's how I live my life. Okay. Almost down here. Last but not least, will Joe having an artificial lung help him survive a chest burster attack? Because, of course, we're quite worried that slightly obviously has his sight set on Joe as the person he wants to shove in front of an egg. Sure. Could, you know, we know the mechanic by which the chest burser, you know, works, what if it goes down the esophagus into the mechanical lung?

What will that do? I'm going to be honest. I didn't, like, this is a moment for reflection for all of us watching Alien Earth. Until this second, I had always kind of assumed that the little chest burst or embryo went into your stomach. I think it burst. It was more of a stomach buster than a chest and we saw it burst out of his old lung in the tank.

It's true. Yeah. I mean in Covenant we see one come out of a back. Like I kind of feel like they're like they were using the lung because the lung was injured so they had human tissue that they could test. But so yeah, I think it could go in the other lung it could go in the stomach. I do wonder though if you're right that that will have some impact on either the capacity to, like, jested and explode,

or if maybe just, like, would it be less interested in him to start with, you know? Like, slightly, like, shoves it in front, and he's like, uh-uh, there's an artificial lung in there. I don't want it. I'm going to hold off because I'm pretty sure the curse is going to bring boy in in, like, 10 minutes, and then I'll have a better or fully organic option. I will say my number one candidate to get a face hugger before the end of the season is Arthur.

Arthur seems like the most primed. he seems like a big slug candidate to me. That dude's going to get, if I've ever seen a man who's about to get slugged, it's Arthur. I think Arthur could also just be like, like a hybrid could take Arthur out. Like Arthur could be undone by his own work and his kind of like failure to properly. He has this very like pure relationship to the work still. And like we talked about it's like, well, what do you think you're bringing into the world exactly? So that undoing Arthur in some way or maybe that's what happens to Dame Sylvia.

Obviously we've been primed for that already. Very interesting. we still like what is the flora fauna gonna do like we have gotten the on the flash forward fronts i mean we still have the utter horror of the floating dolls head in our future can't wait for that i'm sure i'll be fine but the like bloody yeah the bloody prongs of the flora fauna you know we're i just hope the bunnies are okay and that that's not about the bunnies i need that to be a person okay the bunnies i'm sorry are not going to be okay last of least i agree with everything you all have said about like wendy thinking she's a chosen one, even though, like, you guys think it's just a sort of mechanical reason why she can hear the aliens. That being said, this particular little xenob baby came from her brother's lung. And there is a thing about, like, the way in which the xenomorph creations kind of adopt what they come out of. Yeah, sure. So is there a way in which the fact that she comes from Joe DNA make that connection which is incidental to begin with actually something else

now that this has happened. That would be very much in keeping, because that would be what her niece. So that would be very much in keeping with like the alien resurrection canon. Yeah. I guess we'd still have. I was thinking about like Alien 3. Three with the dog. Yeah.

The dog. Yeah. And then but the combo of like the dog and then everything in four and resurrection, which is basically like the actual DNA bond that, like, heightens that connection. But that wouldn't, to your point, like, it wouldn't give us the full clarity of how she initially, when she first gets to the ship site, the crash site, is hearing. But maybe if that unlocks something further, because it's like family, that would be. Well, we know.

Zenomorphs, when you hear your family. Okay. Sorry. Exactly. I love it. If Hermit is already unkillable and the xenomorph is already the perfect killing machine, is a xenomorph that comes out of hermit the true peak of existence.

Is that really the strongest being to ever exist? A xenomorph with not just literal physical armor on his body, but also the plot armor that has been gifted to R-A-J-Jow. How acidic is the blood under the plot armor if you manage to pierce it? It's a great question. What would that burn through? It's a great question.

Space-time continuum. I was really struck. I revisited aliens last night in theaters. It was wonderful. Truly a magical experience. How many moments in aliens are dependent on elevators being super slow? Which then made me very angry at the absolute ridiculous speed of Hermit's elevator usage and the fastest elevator doors I've ever seen.

Is it my, am I incorrect? Did the Xenomorph learn how to operate the elevator later? Of course. Doesn't she roll up in the elevator later? Don't worry about it. I just am impressed. Honestly, there's only like two buttons. It can figure it out.

The queen can figure it out. There's only two buttons in an elevator at a prodigy high rise. Yeah, it's like I was invited to the fancy Louie the 14th party or I wasn't. Those were the two buttons, basically. I thought you were talking about the aliens, alien, in which, again, an alien successfully manages to traverse an elevator. That's true. That's true. I will say on the Hermit front, obviously we know from the first episode that it's a lock, it's a rap on Zveri. So it's not like we're like expecting Savari to make it through unscathes for long.

We know what's going to happen in front of the sealed mother chat room door. But multiple escapes that completely defied credulity to me. So that actually made some of hermits escapes less absurd to me. I'm like, I'm sorry, but how is she outrunning the xenomorph in this hallway? That's like nuts. She's driven by grief and horniness. And horniness. Exactly.

And she's like, I really know these hallways and these hatches because I've fucked in every It's true. You're right. You brought me back. When she went spiraling down that pole or down that ladder or whatever, it's like that. They've been here. Savari, I will say, though she does, you know, outrun a xenomorph, she also doesn't do it. I will just say, actually, I'll just save it for our sort of like bigger look at this episode.

But anyway. Are we doing a bigger look at this episode? Thank you for indulging me in Joanna. Missed you guys for several weeks. We missed you. But, yeah, we should probably talk about episode five. Incredible stuff. Just sensational.

All of it. We got a literary corner. We got a theory corner. Any wig watch takes while we're at it to just like accent corner? I mean, on the Nana front, Dame Sylvia's hair, I think that's a great, that's a great calm for what is happening to the wig situation there. It's shaggy. Quite chaggy.

Oh, man. Great stuff. Okay. That was magical. Thank you, Joe. Should we get to the episode five deep dad? Let's do it. Hey, guys.

We got a mini-alian movie, smack dab in the middle of this season of television. We were speculating that we would get more imagino flashback. Info insight at some point. Had no idea that we would be getting this entire standalone episode, so that was a treat. A couple kind of like big picture prompts before we get into some of our character insights, the morrow front. The boy was actually the one sparking the sabotage front. Obviously, we will be going through every single death and deciding which is the worst. Pan back. Look at the Maginot from the outside. Imagine you're in the cold vacuum of space. How did episode five function for you as a

spacebound, shipbound, we are trapped in this vessel, horror story that is ultimately more akin to what we are accustomed to seeing in much of the rest of the franchise than the bulk of this season has been so far. How did this work as a mini-movie horror installment? Let's start there. I think pretty spectacularly. There are some exceptions.

There are some moments in which the xenomorph really looks like a guy in a suit and the CGI gets a little bit shaky as the xenomorph is rounding some corners. Other than that, I think it's like a pretty like lights-out, self-standing type of story. To the point that I would appreciate it,

even if it didn't have the plot revolution. even if it didn't have all of these other tentacles that are stretching outwards to the other parts of the story. I just thought it was, like, I thought the suspense was well played. I think the characters, for the most part, are really quickly established. It's not without the occasional wrong foot, but hard to ask for more of like a full cast, at least most cast, accepting Morrow, changeover for one episode than something like this. This is exactly what I want from this kind of episode. Joe?

I hate to come on the pot after you guys and spend weeks being like this is... And I agree that so much of the show has been so good. I think it's really tough to try to do something that so closely mirrors a perfect film that is alien. We're in the Magna, which is designed to look just like the Nistromo.

We have done a lot of comps with various characters. So, like, you're really swinging for the fences in terms of, like, what you're trying to achieve here. And in terms of having just rewatched, not on the big screen, but having just rewatched Alien and Aliens over the weekend, like the thing that Alien has time for, which even with 10 extra minutes on the runtime this episode, an episode of television isn't enough time for is a bit more relationship information to make it matter when these people die. And just time for suspense.

I think without question to me, the lights out sequence of. this episode is Chibuzo fucking up in the lab, just because there's so much time for her to be like eating her sandwich and spilling her water and doing all this stuff. And I was just thinking about inside of Alien, there's just like a lot of sequences where people are walking around and we're freaking the fuck out at home because we know that they're fucked, but we don't know when or how exactly it's going to happen. And so that all worked, that really worked for me. I would have loved more of that, but I don't know how you can do that inside of an hour necessarily. And then on the relationship front, you guys have had some really interesting conversations

about Arthur and, I guess I'll call her Dame because we're on a first-name basis. Or, you know, Joe and Wendy, this idea of, like, you're missing a little bit of the connective tissue in some of these established relationships. And so I was trying to, I was thinking a lot about that in terms of, like, Noah Hawley's bigger over of work and, like, what he does really. really, really well and what he sort of slightly stumbles on. And I think that idea of like established relationship, Fargo and Legion are such mannered shows. Like, no one is behaving like an actual human in those shows.

There are human moments, but there is that sort of very affected pattern in both of those shows. So this idea of, like, quickly establishing history between people, which Alien does seamlessly. On a masterpiece level. Yeah. You know? And here they're like, he wakes up. Moral wakes up and they're like, the captain's dead.

Captain's dead. They say it with like such little care. Nobody attends the space funeral. And I went back and like rewatched the opening thing. And I'm like, I don't have any. This guy isn't like an absolute asshole. Like why does no one care that the captain's dead? And you and I know this is like this is a science operation versus like the space truckers of alien.

But the way they feel about Dallas in Alien, you know, the way in which these relationships work for each other, we're mimicking this with the people talking over each other at the kitchen table sort of vibe that they did both in the premiere and in this episode without actually landing it. And so, like, I'm missing. Yes, we know about, like, people being horny together and stuff like this. but like, and we get sort of like a dropping of the soil moment, but like I'm not feeling like the loss and the pain and the anguish and the connection. I'm feeling like people being bad at their jobs and incompetent. I'm feeling that. So anyway, visually incredible.

These people are morons. Visually very cool. Some further great stuff for our guy, Morrow. Just incredible stuff. But at the same time, I feel like I'm getting a, I'm getting a lot of background download via letters that I have to freeze frame and read, which is not my ideal sort of way in which to get information about someone. So I'm a little less high on this episode than I've been on other episodes this season,

but I also just think he just set himself like kind of an impossible tax. But there's a lot to like really, really relish inside of this episode. That's right. On the relationship front, I was like, I was pretty stumped by the moment when Morrow and Petrovich finally are facing off. And we get a line that is literally Petrovich, right? And I was like, wait, do they not know each other? And then I was rewatching the Maginot scenes in episode one. And this was like, I did not understand that this was what was happening in the premiere. And now it seems clear that they're like shifts basically, right? The shift changes. So it's like,

okay, maybe some of these people have not actually even over 65 years encountering each other, much, spent much time together, but for the people who have, yeah, being able to better understand, like, what their relationship is, because even if it's just a mission and it's a job and everybody's there for their shares, and we get that, you know, nice moment between Schmul and Malachite where he's basically like, that's actually what they're paying you for, like, not the work, right? It's a quarter share for 65 years of your life, and then you go back and say, like, let me have some more. Those moments were great because you have, like, the, uh, whizzer.

dumb of an old head basically who's like, and then the guy, you know, he's like, I don't even, I thought I was here for rocks and I don't know what an apprentice is, but I am one. Those I thought worked effectively, but there were some other moments that maybe didn't hit quite as well on the relationship front. I thought that this was like, as an installment in the horror genre action thriller canon, pretty good and pretty fawning. and riveting. And, like, I thought that the fact that we had actually seen either through a flash forward, you know, these glimpses, like we had seen the glimpse, for example, of Tang looking up and screaming. We know that something's getting him from above before we've seen it.

We know from Hermit and Co. passing through the Medbay earlier in the season that there's something foul on the GI track inside of our guy Malachi. We know that not just that Raheer and Chabuzzo are going to die when we see them in that exact setup in that room, but we know, like, it's from a toxin. We had gotten that information. So we know, we had seen, obviously, Morrow, refused to grant Zaveri entrance into the room, et cetera. We know so many of the things that are going to happen. And so I think because of that, it's like in an alien story, you sort of know what's going

to happen always, terrible things. Everybody's going to get involved. They're not going to die. We knew specifically the room or the location in which many of these people died. We knew how it was going to happen. And I thought that despite that, it was so tense and taught that I was pretty impressed, like, by the level of horror that was dialed up through basically, like, the fact that we felt helpless because we knew the outcome already, right? There was something extra, I thought, intense about that, actually, in a kind of surprising and interesting way. It's like the fact that we knew we were watching not just a horror story, but an active, like, a treatise on incompetence on hubris.

on mistakes that we know are inevitable added a degree I thought of intrigue. Completely. I think that stuff works too, Mal, because I'm totally on the same page as you are, as far as like the emotional grounding of a lot of these relationships. It's like, is it up to the standard of the best alien moments and movies? But the terror is there in part because these new creations, the bloodslug and the eyeball jockey, are legit terrifying. And they have done enough to kind of set the stage for what they can do while leaving open. some possibility of what they've already done, that it pulls you into wanting to see

how they end up dismantling this crew, basically. Like, with all of these dangerous creatures on board, not just the xenomorph, what the hell happens to all these people? So let's build off that into something else I wanted to ask you guys, which is basically about placement, both the fact that we got,

obviously we had seen scenes on the Maginot, but that we get this as like a standalone episode, but also that we get it in the middle of the season. And then also that these shows, the stretch of story that we're accessing is basically how the aliens killed the humans, right? That's what we're treated to here and what a treat it was. But what we don't get is any insight into how they acquired the specimens in the first place. And given the variety on the specimen front, that would have been... Someone got some worms in their eyeball. We do know that

happens. But listen, I need more than my girlfriend got bug eggs in her eyes to accept. You're not betraying your fellow man and dooming the entire planet. I'm actually... Sorry, Petrovich. I'm actually wondering, and I'm, you know, like, presumably, perhaps in the future, we asked Noah Hawley about this, but I'm wondering if there were things that were cut from this, like, if this was ever even longer, because I really felt like holes in the pet, like, Enzo Chilenti, you know, who's been on Game of Thrones, but was, like, incredibly good on Jonathan Strange

and Dr. Norrell, like that, Mr. Norrell, that. That, like, he is a great performer. And so to put him in the Petrovich role is great. But to, I just felt like we didn't get enough. And then also, Tang being creepy over that girl is something that I'm just sort of like, feels unresolved in a way that doesn't even feel like that interested. Like, why was that there other than for, as a red herring creep? I don't know.

And I guess, like, the payoff of him knowing that one of the cryopods was empty. because he's always looking. Yeah. Fair. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.

There was just like some moments where I was like. The stalkers are the real heroes, Jim. Yeah. Great point. I was just like, was there more tank stuff? Was there more petrovitch stuff? Was there more stuff inside of this episode? And they were like, no, we could only give you 10 extra minutes to pat out this.

So this is the fifth season of Sons of Anarchy. You don't get two hours to do this. So, um, well, would you have, do you think there's a version that would have worked where we had gotten maybe flashbacks stitched throughout the entire season? And obviously that deprives us of something. as utterly focused and contained as this entire, let's watch all the people die episode, but perhaps what it unlocks is a little bit more time

with each of the characters, or exploration and other aspects of the timeline, whether it's the acquiring of the specimens, or if we go back even further, what did you, Donnie, know and when? What did it borrow no and when? Like, where are you guys on that part of this? Do you feel like you have every bit of information

that you need? still have questions on that. We got a lot of like little sprinklings of information about what did this research vessel think they were setting out to do that kind of like further cement what we already believed we understood, which was that they like were heading out for this purpose and newish what they were going to get. I think we still all collectively have questions about what that means basically for the wide swath of alien canon coherence. But would you have like would you have been interested in actually learning more of that? Do you think that might still be to come? Was there a way to give us that?

without it ballooning into a two-hour episode in the middle of the season. What do you think about that, like, structurally, but also in terms of the story insights? And I would say I would not be opposed to a two-hour episode. Like, we're going to do an alien movie in the middle of this season. Or to start it. Like, I think there's a version of this season that opens,

if you'll part in the spoilers for Silo, if you haven't seen Silo. The sort of like... Oh, we've seen Silo. Start with one cast, kill off almost the entire cast, and then, like, turn it over as we're kind of changing over the set of characters. You could almost open the season with a full-length movie

and then go into a season if you wanted to. I hope you know, Rob, that I do have silo in my notes because the ink spots are used and we talked about the ink spots being the creepiest music you could play inside of a series episode. I think that I was thinking about this, Malaya. I was like, how would I fix this? And Rob's idea is an interesting one.

I was thinking of, like, would have been interesting to have a cold open with the magic. every week. We spend a scene with the Maginot. We care more about them. And so then when we finally get to what happened to these people that we care about, that payoff feels even more juicy. Because it's less like, how did A get to be, like, Agatha Christieing this shit and

figure out like how it all happened. And more like, who did it all happen to? And like, the Y is the same answer as it always is in an alien franchise, which is people or smart and dumb at the same time. But I just, yeah, I was thinking about that. But I do like this placement in the middle of the season, but to answer your larger question, Mallory, there is more information that we can glean.

But also, like, we're talking about this. We're talking about, like, does Boy Cavalier make it to the end of the season? Does, you know, do all of the Lost Boys, blah, blah, blah. But presumably they want to do several seasons of this show. So I don't mind there being mystery, especially on the, like, corporate espionage side. that we find out more about who knew what, when, and what the mission was. But I was shocked by the fact that they're using the word xenomorph on the ship here,

because I will say the Reddit boards have been tying themselves in knots for weeks to try to figure out how to make it work in continuity that Whel and Utani would know about the xenomorphs before. Has anyone surfaced an answer other than, like, someone is crunching alien versus predator? Tape, because that's the story in the canon chronology that comes first, like, before the Magidot took off. That's it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that they went out looking for the xenomorph explicitly. But we do know that.

They were looking for life of some sort that would grant. But then how do they know that? I was really struck by that, too, Joe. Saying Zenomorph allowed. I was like, wait. That felt huge. I took that as like, this is a term that they have kind of like loosely, maybe even coined, or maybe it's just like a loose term that they use to apply a certain class of alien that they encounter, period.

But we know that they've lost a couple crew members already in seizing the eggs, in rounding up the eggs. I would assume that to me they have already encountered some fully grown xenomorph previously. To the point that they've seen that thing, they know to be scared of it, they might know some of what it's capable of. But otherwise, they're kind of flying blind. And maybe in the Whalen-Utani sense, this is sort of the beginning of an obsession as far as, like, okay, now we need to go out again and send ship after ship to try to find these monsters out in, you know, the far

reaches of space again. So do you think Bronsky, that piece of shit, Bronsky, who, they go out of the way, I just say he was not, he was a bad dude. That was explaining, without really explaining why. He's a bad guy. What did he do? What did he do? Are we going to learn? Nope. I want to know. But Bronski's our science officer, right?

So is he the one who named the Zanamo? Chibuzo's definitely not the lead science officer. I don't know what she was deputized from. I also questions about like... Lead sandwich officer. I also have questions about like having a casual... Lead swell bottle officer. Having a casual Sammy in the lab when the captain just died and like someone else is in

cryo with a facehugger on that? Like, what are our priorities? What are we doing? Come on. You can't clear the Google Cal every time someone dies on the match. Come on. The only counter I have, Rob, to the... Because I think, yes, it's reasonable to assume based on that we lost a lot of men that they have faced many horrors, including potentially, of xenomorph. There was the, like, wait, how big can this thing get exchange, which pointed to maybe like a little less active familiarity. I also thought that one of the interesting, maybe like bits of like a counterweight to,

okay, they said xenomorph, what do they know when, was just like, they think they're putting this thing in cry it was going to work and it's not. So there's obviously like a cap on the specific knowledge of. about what happens with these specimens in various states and various forms. So that was interesting. You know, we get a lot of just sort of like a thematic textual pursuit cover with what is ultimately like the thesis of this exercise when Rahim is explaining to Clem why Utani or why anyone would want these specimens. It's about its power, right? It's always about power. You've got five big corporations that control everything, right? But our guys want to be on top. So they send us out to collect the most

terrifying shit so they can use it to take over. Now, when the Maginot set out, the five was not a thing. There were not five corporations. I guess that same logic holds in full, though, if you're talking about the triumph for it, like the same, in theory, need to dominate your foes either of the moment or future foes would exist. But then just everything Morrow says. And we've parsed similar lines in other episodes, but we got many here. I'm responsible for getting this cargo back to Earth intact. Those instructions from the company are crystal clear whether or not the crew survives. You talk to the computer. My orders are from Utani herself.

Nothing matters but the cargo. Not you, not me, not the fucking cat. Extremely rude. And then I told her I'd bring the specimens home and I will. Now, in theory, they could be communicating on the ship about what specifically they found. That doesn't necessarily tell us that that detailed go out for these things and bring these things home. Mandate came 65 years ago. So there's still room to wonder and speculate.

I love that he's like, I've got a direct line to Utani. And then, like, when he gets back home and he's talking around, she's like, oh, you knew my grandma. And I'm like, oh, boy, you have not talked to anyone on Earth. Granny Utani. For decades. That direct line's been dead for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I love, I was like, oh, they just tweeted it out. You just said it. They did. The thing that, like, Ash, who was so careful to conceal from people, we just told everyone on on the Maginot. And, you know, maybe that's how we learned on the Nistromo. first of all, these are not science officers. And secondly, like, Ash, don't tell them that they're expendable.

It didn't work out last time. So let's try this instead. And here is my main note for Waylon Utani, other than, like, be less evil, please, is, like, what is your vetting process for who you send on these missions? It's pretty low. Because, like, the Estromo, like, that was not their job. So, like, they're, like, we're out of our depth. We're long-haul truckers. like that's what we're supposed to be doing.

The Maginot, like, all of these people should be top tier. Send your best people, right, on this mission with love and respect. Don't son Clem, don't send Malachite and don't send Chibuzzo. Like, do not send her on this mission. What is, like, she can't even fucking close a specimen jar? What are we doing here in the lab at all? Also, make sure the glass doesn't break. That's fixable.

Like, that you should really have a handle. On. By aliens, it takes much more to break some glass in aliens. I do think there's a balance here, though, between the people who are truly essential are probably not being sent on 60-year missions. And so it's like there's a degree of expendability in terms of the people they're sending out on these things. If they're really that important, I think you keep them pretty close. And maybe that in itself says something about Utoni's adopted relationship with Morrow, too. I think like the extent of the on-board experimentation is the puzzler in that respect. Because if everybody is like utterly expendable, it's go get, bring back, then we play. Never unlock a single case.

Do not. I do not need you to do at any point explain the red and green panels because you were not touching the panels after you lock them in the first place. It should be a one-use. Screw-on, lock in place does not get unlocked. Cluel it, weld it, weld it, exactly. And eyeball jockey with a rudimentary understanding of physics will not be able to swing with this shocking wingspan and shatter this glass.

The fucking bloodslug figured it out. Oh my God, the bloods like being able to be like, smicked, they are. And waiting, like biting time to wait, okay, the droplets of water coming down the side, now I know this is the moment I can pounce. There's a substance here that I can excrete into. This dumb dumb is so distracted watching. one of us feast on this dead rat that I have time. Yeah.

Yeah, everybody's eager for entertainment. Don't take out multiple specimens at one time. Like, keep it locked up. If you got to take it out, I think the one exception to this is over that timeline, they don't quite know what's going to happen to these aliens that are being, presumably, like, deprived of food or resources or whatever they need. So it might be like, study them while you can because you don't know if they're going to last 60 years. That seems clear.

It just leaves them vulnerable to their own stupidity. Oh, yes. But also that's how we get television shows and movies. I don't know that I understand the changeover idea of the, because it seems like there's teams on changeover. Yes. But we're not in the cryosleep sort of it's 65 years. We're not aging 30 years on this.

No, no. True. I took this to be like, I mean, like many kind of space travel movies where it's like time is passing differently on Earth than people who are in this sort of space. So it's like they're, yeah, they're not aging that much. But they're, okay, so they're gone. 65 years in on earth. It's not that long on this.

Because my idea of cryosleep is usually like you're just preserved for those years and you take a nap during the flight. But if they're constantly up and down in 50-50 shifts, which is what it seems like is the arrangement here, then they're awake half of the journey. They're not just like snooing. I think they also might be like sleeping for eight months and working two days and then going back and cryo kind of a thing possibly. Check, make sure everything's working.

Yeah. Yeah. But not someone is awake at all times. Fuck on an egg crate. Well, right. The only been deprived of food for two weeks, we heard, right? So, yeah. What's the shift change on the Maginot?

That's the question I have. We have a lot we need to learn. We have all of these questions about the timeline and how it's passing and who knows what when. I just want to say Malachite is a tremendously dumb man. It's very stupid kid. But they give him a lot of shit in episode one for not knowing his social studies about the rise of the five as opposed to the tramper. But he's been gone from all the shit. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.

Like, you expect him to know every coming and going on Earth when he hasn't been there? I mean, he maybe should be, like, reading. I mean, clearly we know Petrovich is directly in communication with Boy Cavalier, but also, like, he's the one in episode one who's like, youngest trillionaire ever and ah. That's like AI and since and stuff, right? I mean, I think. I don't know. I'm definitely not secretly in touch with him plotting our demise.

But also, like, you know, you get the impression that just like they're sending communication logs to their loved ones or receiving letters, like, they can be like reading a newspaper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, they can be learning, I guess. And Malachite's like, no, the only thing I'm going to learn is how to properly douse my loamane and hot sauce so that I don't. Space Jolula? Yeah, find myself so overcome. I need to drink the ashtick juice.

Like, a lot of lessons for Malichite. Ultimately, he died and so did everyone else other than Morrow. On the morrow front, what did you guys think about the history? We learned like that he was with Utani since he was a kid, a kid with a palsyed arm. I was really struck by that parallel to the Lost Boys, right? Like, obviously, it's not a one-to-one. There's something different about it. But the idea of this tech oligarch saying, oh, let me, like, help improve your circumstances.

Let me take you in. Let me give you a home. Also, by the way, I'm going to make you a cyborg now. And then you're going to go on my missions and get what I need, right? And, you know, the idea that you are, like, being granted this new opportunity and this second chance at a different life, but also that you are instantly a tool, a tool for this pursuer of power. What did that insight about Maro's history? And also, of course, everything that we learned about his history with his daughter, Estelle, who, you know, we knew when he got back on Earth. He was like, I've got no ties here.

My family, my friends. They're all dead. It's just the mission. You're my mission. It's just the mission for me. But then we learn, it's not just the passage of time. Like Estelle died in a fire. And he was like doing it.

He was doing it all for her is the idea, right? He's doing it all for her so she can go to free school. Not that dust heap Harvard, whereas. they... It's not cheap, though. Where they learn whatever they want. We're going to go to Corfo school where we have a very strict curriculum. I did

like that even in the year 21-20, people are still going to school near Boston. You know, in the broader Boston area. But the idea that like, he, you know, surely Mallory and I will ask Babi-Sisi say about this in the interview that you'll hear at the end of this episode,

which went really well. It went great. It was great. It was great. I'm sorry about it. But like, Is that a dispatch from Space Joe and Space Mal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The passage of time is different in those interviews. Don't worry about it. But I think that like this idea that he was doing it all for her, that's the idea.

And they had to transfer that. You can't, then it can't be meaningless. She dies at 19. He sacrificed his entire life with her. So now he asked to ascribe meaning to something. So when he later, when he says in an earlier episode, this is my life. work, right? It's like, this becomes the I was doing it all for X. Now, sad that I was doing it all for X is the evil deeds of an evil corporation, but, you know, needs must to justify our

own existence. But I think that this idea of the technocrats giveeth and the technocrats take it away, like this idea of like, we'll give you the arm and here's Pinocchio all the strings attached to it. Like, we'll give you a lung hermit, but here are all the strings attached to it, but we'll bill you for it later if you want us to. So, like, this idea of, like,

the rise of the technocrat and the idea of, like, these absolute assholes who have created technical innovation, but the control that they demand that comes with that. And I like that that is existent across all of the five, surely,

because they're all, you know, cut from the same cloth. So. Yeah. I thought this was really interesting to, like, have this insight that Morrow, like, presumably many of the people who opt into some sort of experience like this or like, this will help my family or this is what I can do with this share, XYZ, right? I can give my daughter an opportunity she wouldn't have had otherwise. But also then the fact that we have this insight that his relationship with Utani predates that.

Like, it made me think anew of the exchange that he had with slightly in episode four about the idea of loyalty and, like, the terrible things people do because of the loyalties that they possess. and that, like, you know, on the one hand, when everything we watch him do on this ship is, like, pretty unflinching, right? He's not really having too many moments where he's like, I mean, he doesn't have a single moment where he says anything other than this is the thing we need to prioritize at all cost, no matter what it means for other people. It's only then later when he's staring at Smey and slightly and looking at the literal wreckage around them that he's like, would you have done this? Like the things that I did? and it's tearing him up, and he is kind of like, the guilt fills the vacuum because there's nothing else there anymore, right? The mission isn't there. It's now a new mission. And in that

little space in between that shift into, okay, here's the next phase of this task, he can feel that this was wrong, the thing that he did. And that's kind of, I'm curious then, like, well, where can that lever move at all as he is now looking at slightly, presumably thinking, not just of his kid, but of an earlier version of himself, and thinking about what it felt like when someone else used him and made him do things. Even just like the little line in the letter about Estelle, like, her effects are waiting for you. Like, is he going to go find those?

And then what will that do? Well, seeing his daughter's possessions, like, pull him back into some sort of heightened sense of humanity, is that possible? Or is that not the story we're watching, you know? I'll tell you what that's going to do, Mowell, it's going to fuck me up if he goes through a box of his daughter's effects. How long does a box of reasons last is my question? Great question.

Great question. Unlimited amount of time. The pacifier on the fingers, he was reading. the letters was like a diabolical touch. Wow. The ink spots saying we'll meet again. Very painful. This is why I think some of the emotion of this episode did work for me.

Not all of the ingrained crew stuff, but Morrow's backstory. Moro just always works. He does. He does. He says it's just like absolutely crushing us. He's excellent on this show. And this is where, you know, in our larger conversation about like, should you have parceled out the flashback?

should you have started the season with more Maginot stuff. The two most effective characters, I think the season, by far, are Morrow and Boy Cavaloo. And Kersh, I would say that trio have really, really hit. And so I like the sort of slow parceling of Morrow's story that we're getting here and how it's teaching us new things about this character. And if you had seen too much of his life before this or heard about too much of his life before, would you interpret all of his actions in a different way? Like, I love the mystery of who that character has been.

and then you get these moments of, again, this is just like a trope that gets under my skin for some reason, this passage of time being different in space, the old interstellar, the old, like, I think Voices of a Distant Star was the first time I ever encountered it. It's like there's something so human about the idea that you were focused on something and you blink in years past. It's like, what if we sci-fi that shit

and make it extra tragic? And oh, by the way, your daughter died, I find it to be really, really effective. And I think giving this character who's already kind of had stolen the lifeblood of this show in a lot of ways this much meat to work with, that part of it really worked for me. I really agree. And I think if I were to ask for imagineo flashbacks, like cold open throughout the seasons, it would not be moro that needed more of our time at all. That's not what was necessary, I think. Right. Every episode should

open with Bronski and it's a very fucking in a different corner of the ship is what we're saying. It's a lot of years. I also, I love that idea of the episodes opening with the flashback. I do you think if I'm Noah Holly, I'm probably like, I can't resist making just like an alien movie in the middle. I understand it. I understand it. You get it. It's also written and directed by Noah Hawley. Like that for the credits to roll on this and it's like written by Noah. Directed by Noah. Created by Noah. It's just like, okay. Let's chat for another few minutes here about Petrovich and boy, and this reveal because we had been speculating that everybody felt sure that. a saboteur was in the mix. Our guy Malikai, what's a saboteur? Is that a French word?

And then shawl bad Frenchman. I just need like hours and hours with those two. And Rahim, who I thought was like amazing. What old Dr. Shaky hands? Old doctor, I'm sober, but the flask is right here and loaded and ready to go. I just happened to have it. The flask and I'm going to take a slink. Can we not?

Can we not put a goddamn mask on? surgery, please. Dude, they should have been in full-on head. That's in my list of like dull-in-explicable things people did in this episode, which is like 80% Shibuzzo, but then I was like, let's get some other characters in here too. Yeah.

Why are they not wearing protective gear? I actually, that was actually, I just didn't understand that. Once you know, I mean, having seen Prometheus, I will say a full helmet will not stop you. That's true. It doesn't really want inside.

But like. But you can try. If you know how the facehugger works, why are we not trying any kind of face shield situation? Like Maro is watching, he's a security officer and he's like, what about contamination? What about containment? Like the doctors in the room aren't thinking about the risk of pulling the ass tick off? I just feel they should have said.

I would not expect the mask, the goggles, the hazmat suit, any of it to work. But I do think they should have believed that it was important to put it on. It's worth a shot. Do you think if like, if like, Surely very bad at the game of operation, Dr. Shaky Hands. Do you think if he had had a steadier grip on the tweezer, we would not have gotten the plume of toxic, you know? I think that that, I think that baby blood slug,

aka the blood slug ass tick, is emitting that plume no matter what, because I think it's just classic defense back. Defense mechanism. Like you're squeezing each to why a plume. Here's what I would do is I, here's what I do, you know, were at me. First of all, I would not

be in either active alcoholism withdrawal or swinging from a flask. Secondly, you would though, as we've established on this spot, be a consultant for Whelan Utani trying to shore them up on their business practices. Be less evil. It's a pretty easy thing. Would you not

maybe try to urge the tick off of the living flesh of your crewmate and onto like a rat or something like that? Like, here just sort of nudge it. You know, in a certain direction. Like a blood-rich sponge. A blood-rich-rich-spunge. Yeah.

Yeah. You can coax a parasite out of human flesh with like a steak. You know, it's horrifying, but true. I don't like knowing that, Rob. I'm sorry. It's awful. An awful thing that we've learned. Yeah, I think that would have been smart to try.

You should be on the next mission. I'm so sorry. You were talking about Petrovision, boy. We can talk about that. So what did you guys think ultimately of the reveal that this was that this was boys doing because while we, while we suspected that there was some sort of corporate sabotage of foot, I think like Rob,

we had been speculating that maybe one of the other members of the five, that this would be where they, like, got involved. And it still seems like we will meet some members of Lynch or dynamic, etc., because Boy has agreed to arbitration. I'm sure that's really in good faith. And so presumably we'll spend some more time with the five and the politics of it all next week. If I don't get eyeball job, attorney at law next week.

Holy shit. Michael Clayton, but make it alien? Which Fargo cast members do you want to see cameo as the head of the other evil corporations? It's got to be U.N.

for me. Let's get him in that. As twins? He's running all of the other major corporations. All the other three. It's triplets and they're all run by a Ewan Brewery.

I have no notes truly. That would be incredible. I think we basically thought it was not Boyd because just of the time period. But of course, that was not the case. I thought that was like on the one hand, interesting and makes more sense for Boy to be centered. It kind of causes us. It sparks us to reassess his prior decisions in a new light. Oh, when he's agreeing to let the lost boys go into the field, for example, he knows exactly what he's doing. Like we can now think about all of that in a different way. Were you glad it was Boy? Would you have

preferred it be someone else? Is it best to keep the story concentrated around? Boy? in this respect. Was your read that Petrovich is a disgruntled member of the Maginot crew was like, I need to go find somebody to send this information to you or that boy made contact? How did he know what Utani is doing? Is this why he was so fascinated by glimpsing Wendy's hacking prowess with the HR bot? Because he's like, also? I love to hack.

Also, is Utani not monitoring these calls? Not closely, apparently. How does boy have a direct line to a Whalen-Yutani ship? Like, whether or not he was the person. I think it had to have been Petrovich seeking him out. I really think that's how the direction it had to go. But I cannot believe that there would be a communique between Petrovich, who sure can temporarily wipe some logs, but doesn't seem like he can sort of

in a jiffy. Like, that mother's not flagging this call to, like, the competition? Like, what are we? What's happening here? Okay, so you guys think this is where we are right now based on what we know. Do you think it's because boy used his feet to dial and so... Yes, he held the iPad in his feet and so it was blocked from anybody being able to detect. That's why he takes his calls from his feet outside down in bed.

Okay, so Petrovich is like the bug laid eggs in my girlfriend's eyes, not into it. Don't feel like this was a good use of my lifespan, quarter share or not. I've been reading about this impressive young trillionaire, youngest trillionaire ever, since a I would like to ask him in exchange for this information to put my brain into a robot. That's what we think happened. And boy, I was like, I'm interested. Opportunism and also kind of like sensing the sort of desperation in each other, right? It's like it's the new corporation and the young CEO of that corporation.

That's the one you're kind of entreating and trying to sell on this prospect. And obviously for Petrovich doesn't have a lot of alternatives. He is in, to me, like, fuck it mode. And he kind of lays that out that it's not even really about the money or anything or even the robot body. It's like, let me deliver these monsters that we have been sent out and that, you know, wiggled their way into my girlfriend's eyes. All of that seems pretty relatable. I am glad that it's boy.

In part because my preference is always deep in and complicate the relationships with the characters we know. Economy of characters. Yeah. It's also why I'm kind of bummed that it's Petrovich because who knows anything about this man? Dude, how about Clem speaking on behalf of every member of the audience saying, wait, which was Petrovich?

Seriously, which one? And he could have been a cool character. I think, like, again, to varying degrees, the rest of this crew has been like at least at least given something, some character trade, some personality defect, whatever. We just don't know anything about this guy. And so the fact that he's the saboteur is not the most interesting development, even though I do like the, oh wait, it was someone who is like waking up from their cryosleep. That's a good twist.

And that's cool. And Teng's bitchy delivery of like, just because, you know, like all of that pretty great. But also, here's my question about Tang. I'm going to be honest. This is my hot take, is the Tang is not working for me. He's not working. Too, like,

disinterested zoomer for me. I just, like, too creepy. Like, you know, Ash and, like, David at least had like, Ash as a secret synthesis, don't they?

But, like, David, like, at least tried a bit. He wasn't like, yeah. What? Again, I ask you, did he? I think he did.

He wasn't freshening up his roots just for himself. He just had to put on this, like, you know, best appearance of people. I just want to say, I just want to go on record. I think, and I've said this before, Michael Fesbender, touching up his roots while watching Lawrence Arabia is maybe my number one favorite moment in the entire alien franchise. Not my favorite alien movie, but that is like my number one favorite moment. And like trying to talk like Peter Elton. But unseated.

It was number one until this episode and now it's been unseated by your, about to be the richest man and whatever cousin whole hell you're in cause in. Right? That's number one now. Pretty excellent.

Yeah, Petrovich, sneaking out of the cryo chamber is great. But yeah, I wish it had been a character that he knew literally anything about. And I was so surprised by how quickly he went out

like I was expecting some sort of conversation, confrontation or whatever, but it was just sort of... A monologue. He's here and he's gone. He got some ideas. The blade through the

Through the torso. It's tough. What does this change about how you are viewing boys' prior actions? You know, obviously something like, we're kind of like giving him like a tiny bit of grace and credit. Like, well, at least he cares about the dead people. No, doesn't care about the dead people. Turn that ship into a missile and then the missile into an arrow. I didn't quite understand why an arrow was more, was scarier than a missile, but that's neither here nor there. Boy is like, no, I don't know. I love postmates. I love DoorDash. Zeno. dash me these specimens right here to my front door. He says, my kingdom. My kingdom. Yeah. Wild stuff. That's also what Mal says when she orders door dash. Yes.

Deliver straight to my kingdom, please. To my kingdom. And then you've got the like, you know, sweet fools like Arthur who are like distracted shiny ball, which as you guys noted, boy, that is part of boy's character. But like, this was, he knew what he was doing all along. He was seeking this out from the moment he received that first communique or sent the first communique. So what, if anything, does this change about how you view his decisions? I'm not a technocrat, but what I will say is that I understand, like, you always have to be trying to cut the competition off at the knee. If they are, like, making great strides in a direction, you need to get involved.

But I also agree with Arthur, when you've got deliverables that are, like, you know, in route or whatever. Got a ship on time. You got to make that happen and not send your billion-dollar prototypes into a haunted. ship full of monsters. None of this makes sense to me from a like, I want this product to work sort of space. Once the conversation on the mountaintop with the child

brain doesn't want you, Tony, to have the most formidable creature in the universe. If that winds up with an eyeball instead, if he's like, the only way I can do it is to have an eyeball conversation eye to eye, like, you know. Incredible. He's really excited by how smart the eyeball is. And, you know.

I mean, same. As he should be. We get it. You know what? I was impressed by how smart the blood slug was. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. A little arm to unlatch the Bruechers. Come on. I was stunned. I will never recover from the in-water view

of the... The way just like gushed out. Diary of plume. That was deeply upsetting. I just can't. It was so horrified. And then we had to just like watch that water bottle move around.

You could see that design in the bottom was brilliant with the little pains. You can see them swimming. So, upsetting. This is a great transition into our next section, which is please pick the worst way to die. I'm going to quickly share with you as a refresher for everyone, including the bad babies listening, how everybody died, and then I'd like you guys to pick the worst and also share any other thoughts that you have about the fates that these poor sad saps met. Captain Dinsdale, acid burning through

your throat as Rahim tries to cut a facehugger off of you. Classic. It's a classic for a reason. Very gross, lingering shot of the neck wound and I appreciated Clem saying that he was nauseous and wanted to vomit. I do like, I mean, Dr. Shaky Hands, not great work from you, but it has been something that I've wanted people to do. And maybe they didn't do it because of the acid blood. But I'm just like whenever like the tendril wraps around and tightens around the throat, which is always like such a scary moment in an alien movie, I'm like, cut it off. Don't cut it off as it turns out.

Do not. The shot of Bronsky after the, here's the dirt from your homeland, Utah, sprinkling ritual, the shot then of the tightening on the throat in the cryopod was very upsetting. I love to you on the comedy front when Rahim is starting to recount what happened with Bronsky and is like, we. And Shabooza's like, uh-uh. She booze is like, don't. No, no, no, no. I'm going to be blamed for plenty.

You take this one. No, no, no, no. Bronsky, baby Xenomorph, bursting through the chest while you're in cryo. shortly after your girlfriend sprinkled that ritual dirt on your pod and flashback to fucking you and then in one of those visions you had a facehugger on you. You know what I'm going to say? Not that bad. Yeah, peaceful, relatively speaking.

Unconscious? Yeah, both the captain and Bronsky like it's over in a moment. Easy out. Well, I mean, acid to the throat is not my ideal way to go. We don't know that he was like conscious for the acid and the throat thing. I assume. Once the facehugger's on you? Oh, I guess.

I guess he could have passed out for like the asphyxiation. could have gotten him by that point. I feel like it's tough for Captain Dinsdale that he's like, okay, there's a fire on my ship and then boom. Like, that's just a lot of panic in your final moments. Bronsky was thinking about fucking his girlfriend in every crevice of that ship. Nobody cares about Captain Dinsdale. Everyone else thinks Bronsie's an asshole, but we don't know why. Again, these are relationship connections I would like to know more about.

It did allow for the great little wink of Schmell being like put them both in the airlock. It's like, that's a classic alien move. I did like what you did there. I did like the visual when she dumped the dirt on his cryo chamber and it made like sort of a like almost like a blood pattern on his chest before we got the actual chest brister. I thought that was cool visual. Great stuff. From the dirt perspective. Yeah.

This is a very delicate piece of machinery that is keeping your ship boyfriend alive with an alien on his face. Like I don't want dirt getting in any part of this thing. It's true. If that's going to condense up. It could gunk up the mechanism. It's just going to turn it to mud on the top of that. I'll remember that. I'll think a lot of poor decisions being made.

I'll keep the Texas dirt away from your cryo chamber, should this ever happen to you. Also, first of all, never setting foot in a cryo chamber. Absolutely will not be happening. Great news. Laverry doesn't have time to wonder for long if she had anything to do with what went wrong because they're all going to die. Brings us to Tang. Mal by a xenomorph after it alerted him to its presence by drooling on him through an air vent above his head.

Again, plastic. I don't understand this. I'm with you, Mal. I don't understand this performance because I was trying to think about Tang and, of course, our guy Tim Oliphant your conversation about the hip waggle was very important to me emotionally but like I was thinking about it

was like if Ash, this is two years before Ash, if Ash is such a convincing synth that they don't even know he's a synth then like synth technology is extremely advanced you know well but also as it said canonically

these models are a little twitchy yeah you know Ash certainly the magazine role forever a study moment in cinema. But like Tang is acting so robotic, like so disaffected and so robotic throughout.

Then his like oversized scream reaction then doesn't make sense to me. So I'm like, why is he having this big emotional reaction when he's like reacted to nothing throughout this whole our whole experience with him? I don't know. It's working for me because I cannot explain it. I don't know. I don't understand anything

that's happening with that performance, with that character. It's all so wild. and yet I am captivated by it. I'm here for the Tang show. Look, it's a very different show. There's a lot of lurking in hallways. It's a lot of saying, drawing out sentences. A lot of doing your filth.

A lot of giving countdowns in seconds instead of days or months. Malachi. My guy. Blood slug ass tics lurping on the artery of his GI track plus just asphyxiation to seal the deal. That's a tough. one. Vom it up a lot of blood.

This is the one. I feel really bad for Malikite that he went out like a chump with space Chalula and shitty lo-main. Like when he was dreaming of piquet and pancakes, hoist and sauce. None of that took him out.

It was space chulula and shitty loamane. First of all, Joe, that was not Space Chalulula. That was at best Space Crystal, maybe Space Tabasco. Like, it was the lowest rent hot sauce you could possibly. I won't lie to you, Rob. I did freeze frame the label and try to source it to something,

and it looks the most like Chalulu for me. So that's what I went for. But you're right that probably their shitty low mane had shitty crystal hot sauce on top of it. I would like, I'm sure it says like Whalen Utani sauce on that, on that, I couldn't get a high enough resolution. I love Yutani sauce. I will say the fun visual for Malikite of the chain with a hook coming down. out in shadow behind him.

That was really fun. That was great. You're like, this guy's about to get stabbed through the neck. No. No. This worse. Then he's going to vomit up a bunch of blood.

Way worse. This does seem like the worst way to go. I think so. I feel like most of the other deaths were either very, very quick or the person dying was quickly unconscious and then therefore probably didn't feel as much of the experience.

But getting a bunch of blood slug ass tics down your esophagus slowly siphoning off your blood, causing you incredible abdominal pain, that doesn't seem great. And in leading that into coughing up blood and passing out from that pain. I will also say the, I have another candidate, but I think you're probably right. I will say the, we were zooming in on the water bottle, so his head was cut off, but when he starts coughing because of the hot sauce, but of course it makes us think of alien of have him coughing at the dinner table.

I thought that was really good, too. Fantastic stuff. Rahim. Asphyxiation caused by trying to pry loose the ass tick with the prong and shaky hand, as discussed, hip flask right before surgery. No protective gear on whatsoever, very tough. Chibuzzo, same cost of death. The only tweak here is all of the above plus begging Rahim not to do all of that stuff. So there's the extra anxiety there.

Hot take for these two doctors slash science officers, whatever they were. Too dumb to live. They deserved everything that they got. Chibuzzo especially. This is a bit of a personality test. Would you rather be the Rahim who's shakily removing the blood slug and therefore causing you both to die? Or would you rather be the Chibuza who in this case is not exactly causing the death, but you are dying by somebody else's incompetence all the same? I want to be master of my own fate.

I think I go in that direction too. I'd rather be the one who's like causing. it, but I guess if you're Chibuzzo, well, only in that one circumstance, you have less blame, but in general, that's not true for Chabuzo in this episode, obviously, blame plenty. That's interesting, too, ultimately, that, like, everything that's happening with the blood slugs and the eyeball jockey is, like, kind of separate from the xenomorph eggs and, like, the actual plot. It's just the, like, synchronicity of all of that, uh, heightens the horror.

Klam Morvo just sort of, like, could have happened on earth. Death. Shot. shot in combat and then shot and killed in the back of the head because Morrow, who we love, just kind of leaves the back of his head exposed for a clear target shot, which was mystifying to me, but there's a lot happening in battle. Also, Clem was killed shortly after Morrow called him Chlamydia, and he had to say, please don't call me that.

So that I think does move him up higher on the list of tough ways to go. Clemydia as a nickname for a guy named Clem is pretty great. It's pretty great. Extra good if you're like filming your colleagues fucking and offering other people to watch them. It just all feels right for Clem. Not unearned in his case. And he's like, wake up the captain's dead.

The captain's dead. The alarm's going off. Got to tell you what's happened. Petrovich, we already talked about just a classic stab through the chest. Got a little bit duped by some steam jets. That masked Mara's approach. Schmole. Brain death via eyeball jockey, body death via xenomorph.

tail. I thought this was so... This was a good one. Cool. In terms of like, again, once again, we meet Schmule already dead. So we don't know exactly how you died. A slow turn. Probably death by eyeball jockey, but we don't...

I just like to see it to know. Do you know what I mean? The tentacle coming out of the nostril. Oh, yeah. And the snarl. And then, yeah. Oh, yeah, to like lift the lip. But like, didn't kill Zavari.

You know, like, like... again, once again, eyeball jockey evil, I'm not sure. But the way in which the eyeball jockey used the schmule body to try to fight the xenomorph. Like, we've, I can't recall in the alien franchise

that I've ever seen a human fling themselves on the back of a xenomorph and then try to... Some part-claring-off the crate. That was great. Knocking on the neck. Like, I've never seen it,

so that was fun to watch. Well, and do we think the eye, because obviously the fabled, you know, hard exterior the armor on the zanomor Do we think that the eyeball jockey can, in fact, penetrate the eye cavity? Because it makes the move. It does.

It lunges. After the body is useless, it goes right for Xeno eye. So that feels like it's in play for something that we can actually see again, which would be frankly delightful. And that's a very just mauled by a xenomorph. We knew that was coming. It was tough. Very tough.

Two things I want to say. First of all, to go back to Shemol for a second, I just want to shout out Michael Smiley, who I've loved since spaced, I think, is like one of the greatest. Irishmen that have ever existed. Fantastic on Bad Sisters. Just like really, just a legend always. And so a real delight inside of both of the episodes he appeared on on this show. Zavari, I want to say this.

Zavari as our like Ripley stand-in sort of character, I would have just enjoyed seeing Zavari make some decisions I agreed with. I, like, throughout the episode, she does not get to do anything cool. she is mostly standing and quivering and, like, being sort of bullied by Morrow and not, like, bugged me. And then I would just like to have seen a woman inside of this episode do something active and cool. And I don't feel like I got to inside of this alien franchise where usually a woman does at least something kind of cool inside of a haunted spaceship. First of all, please respect the eyeball jockey. She's doing great one here.

You know what? All right. When you're right, you're right. Zanamoire's doing well. That's great. Zavari does fall into the range of like, look, all these characters are doing dumb shit. Like, it's, it is a very alien thing to do.

And I think laying it out the way that Morrow and Zverry do of the, like, what is incompetence and what is sabotage? And the truth of the alien universe is like 99% of it is incompetence. And then sometimes there's a little bit of sabotage nudging it along. But most of these people in these stories are really dumb. make very emotional impulsive decision. She just gets that gun and then she drops it really quickly. And I just, and then like never uses it. And I just, uh-huh. So here's something that we hear Rahim say. He is invoking the victory for the enemy of reason and then explains the spacebug

is proof of how stupid smart people can be, smart enough to build ships capable of space travel, of splitting the atom and decoding the genome, but too stupid to realize you don't bring parasites home with you. Now, certainly this is on our minds as we learn that. boy is behind what is happening here. And obviously it's on our mind with Yutani and the members of the five who were elbowing each other out of the way for power and for access to these specimens. But it is also on our mind and with every single thing we see all of these people do. Like, I love a working lunch.

I love a working lunch. We've all got busy days. But when we're watching Chibuzzo, in pretty short succession, we're. Leave that open water bottle there. Have the food that close to the encounter, not cap the container, not confirm that eyeball jockey is latch. It's just like, on and on and on the list goes. It's like that's not even just hubris.

That's not flying too close to the sun and seeking out something that you should never have meddled with. I mean, it's entwined with that. But it's also like, we just need you to be like you seeing your work a little bit more, members of the Maginot. So, yeah, I think they're kind of like all doing stupid shit all of the time and obviously suffer horrible consequences as a result. They're all dumb. They're all very dumb.

But look, Chibuzzo is terrible at her job. Yeah. But this performance, like Karen Aldridge in addition to Michael Smiley are the two performers on the Magin. It's like, that's an alien actor to me. Like, like, they fit on one of these ships. They fit as a part of one of, like, part of one of these crews. She felt like of a peace with this universe, even while doing ridiculously dumb things. I was very taken by Rahim.

Did what do you, did you guys like Rame as much as I did? Bro, if we've been stuck in a metal too for 65 years, breathing, recycled farts. How are you not sweating? I'm going to give it to my guy, Clem. You're a clam head. You're a chlam head. Two of the clan things got out, you know, the octopus of the long fingers. That's really good.

But I think when he goes into the lab and he's like, let me get a sweep. Let me sweep the place. and then brought the stool. Sensation moment. Yeah. That's really good. I would like more time with that. That's really good.

Hard to argue. I did enjoy as well with Rahim during his interview. And Mara was like, you know, you were out of view for this long. And he's like, I don't know. Your cameras suck. And then also when they were like, what has gone wrong here? And he's like, I was taking a shit. Like I was gone for 10 minutes max.

Sorry. That's just bad timing. Incredible stuff. I love him. That was very funny. Anything else either on the human idiocy front or alien brilliance front that you want to highlight or call out that we haven't already discussed? How many blood slugs are just running around? Now a lot.

Because the Aztecs are baby blood slugs, right? So they're quickly, they're slurping it up and growing into we see like all of them on the march. Yeah. This is not a contained issue. Yeah. Like we took most of the monsters to Neverland Island. but like there's definitely blood slugs run around new siam like definitely lovely i mean what one of them killed what three people in counting and i guess maybe if it's

the same slug also guy talk uh like i it's i'm saying these things seem very dangerous and more smart than we were led on to be fair to the crew of the maginot hard to update the notes when you're getting murdered by the critters you know so maybe maybe the intel was not quite up to date true True. They're going to be doing some updating from Neverland. Something has to happen in season two, you know? And if it's like a... And those blood slugs are smart.

They can learn out of upright elevators, no problem. I'm just saying justice for the blood slug, justice for the eyeball jockey. I think really, as the story goes on, this is the story of the like what happens if you have one bad day, but for the eyeball jockey. This is just the worst day of the eyeball jockey's life. Eyeball Jockey, I'm not kidding you, is a top five character in this show for me.

It's legitimately great. Specifically right now inside of the sheep, because what they're able to do with that sheep face is really working for me. And when it was like on two hind legs and I was like, oh, that's not what I do. No, don't like that at all. I don't really into it. What did we interpret from once eyeball jockey is in Schmule and makes its guttural squawking noises, is it communicated? is it communicating with the xenomorph or does the xenomorph just hear the squawking and double back?

I thought it was like, oh shit, my enemy is here. I thought it was calling to Wendy on the mainland. Someone can hear me. Wendy! Pick up! Look, we were begging for a little more earned history between these characters. The earned history between eyeball jocky and xenomorph,

where it was like, this has been a, like, somebody's tree has been overhanging somebody's lawn for a long time. Absolutely. This is also like a great show don't tell episode on that front because like we heard all of the, you know, Kersh telling, I was going to say, Tootles, forgive me, Isaac. You know, you see these, these waves and oh, oh, the concentration, oh, the mental prowess.

It's like, we watched that. We watched what eyeball jockey was able to do, the observation, the communication, the physical activity. The way that Blood Slug waited and then opened and made a move, like these creatures are clearly smarter than the members of the match. No, that's not even up for debate. Are they going to be able to hang with Boy? The Boy Genius of Our Time?

The Boy Genius who's like misquoting famous sci-fi authors all the time who thinks he's smarter than everyone and then Perce is just like, sure. Yeah. So tough. My guy, Boy, is going out. It's going to be really excited to why. watch. The only thing that Saturn's, like, I am eagerly anticipating his death, but also I don't want a season two without him. So if they have, like, a lone body waiting and his consciousness

has recently been uploaded, then we get the best of both worlds, maybe. Yeah, and he's such an egomaniac that everybody else picks a different body, but not him. Maybe he's a secret sin. It's like, I'm just going to be Sam. No, he's not a secret. That would be a weird secret sin. I hope not. It would. Anything else that we haven't hit that you guys want to mention from this episode or for the first five episodes to date. I'm really excited for the final three last. I'm really excited for the final three episodes. I've heard from, I have not watched ahead, but I have heard from people who have the last two

episodes are like absolute bangers. Bangers. Yeah. And so like people who didn't like love the middle of the season. So I was like, okay, if you didn't love the middle of the season and I'm quite high in the middle of this season, the fact that further heights are waiting us at the end is really exciting. So the conversation of the mountain's up between us.

and the eyeball jacking and the xenomorph will be coming. Wonderful stuff. I mean, just maybe this sets up your interview today too, but like for me, just to zoom out, we've talked about this a little bit throughout this conversation. Morrow, to me, is crystallizing himself as like one of the great alien characters.

Like, I really enjoy his presence on the show, clearly that performance, but I just, I'm getting more out of that specific slot in the plot than I ever would have anticipated from the first couple episodes. Or I was like, I don't know about this cyborg guy. I don't know. I don't know about this presence within the show.

And then all of a sudden, it's like, I just can't wait for every second he's on screen. I think I really agree. And I think that it's a tricky role that could have not, you know, gone well in the hands of a different actor. And I think he's just so mesmerizing. And so as he's, like, weaving his spell around slightly, he's weaving his spell around us at the same time. I do want to shout out one other Peter Pan, you know, as we track him. his like Captain Hook status or whatever. Captain Hook loves a cigar. Captain Hook will stab you without taking the cigar out of his mouth to do so. Actually, he smokes two at a time, but don't worry about it.

But so I look forward tomorrow like puffing away on a cigar whilst stabbing people. That's the heights we could possibly reach here. What a dream. I thought that dropping the lit cigar down. Yeah. The acid hole was extremely ill-advised, but a great way to really have it. that he was smoking cigars a lot. It's like, you kind of can't miss it when he's doing something like that, which was great. Yeah, I think it's been a real master's stroke of the season. Like, so many of the humans who are either fearing or seeking this advancement through technology, the synthetic characters who are either resenting, resisting, or longing, like, for some sort of tether to humanity.

And to give us a character who embodies all of that, right? Like, you think sort of when you see that first flash of the battle, for the triple race for, you know, cyborgs, sins and hybrids, and you're kind of like, well, like cyborgs, I mean, that just seems like old tech. That's like an iPod one. But that it's been the most interesting

because he's inhabiting all of those camps. You know, he is part man, part machine, and he is not in touch in any sort of positive affirming way with any aspect of that, right? Like, still one of the highlights of the season was like the worst parts of the man. Like, just such an interesting.

idea in such rich soil to like continue to mind. I also found the visual of him, like of the sweat pouring down his face. Oh my God. So really sweaty episode. So, like, that's so human, you know, and so, like, we're used to watching these synths who, like, bleed milk and are not, you know, anything. And he's got, he's just so human. And you, and, and a master emotional manipulator.

And the fact that the way in which he's manipulating slightly in this paternal way, like using his skills as a dad to manipulate this child. It's just incredible stuff. I'm so glad our interview with Bobby Cesei went so well. I'm so glad that we just really knocked out of the park with all of our questions. And I'm excited for people to listen to it. Let's go now to our chat with Noah Hawley and Bobo Cicay. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound.

Terseptite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitite and should not. be used with other terseptite-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor

if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, Ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite.

The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptitide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer. Or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor.

Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives.

Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, Noah, let's get cracking with you here. In episode five, Rahim speaks about the enemy of reason and how stupid smart people can be. And this idea is ever present across the entire alien franchise where hubris is just constantly leading, very capable, accomplished people to terrifying fates and terrible fates.

When it came to wanting to play in the alien sandbox, how central was that desire for you, like wanting to explore our self-destructive tendencies. And then how has orienting so much of this season around the layer of a genius who always thinks he's ahead and always thinks he knows best, the barefoot and surely waxwinged boy cavalier, allowed you to mind that smart people, stupid choices, contradiction in the way that you craved? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a staple of alien. You know, it's not, it's something you will find also in a Jurassic Park or the idea that science for all of its intellectualism, actually there's a level of hubris to it where people think just because I can do something doesn't mean I should do something. You have to wonder after all those alien movies if the folks back at the bio-weapons lab are just going, where are my weapons? They never show up, right?

They keep sending people out to get them and they just never make it back. But nobody is going, this is a bad idea. So, you know, I mean, Boy, Cavalier, it's clearly there's some impulse control issues. You know, if you're, if you're someone who thinks that they're a genius and has never failed at anything, then by definition you think failure is not an option for you and that every idea you have is a genius idea. and, you know, that works fine until you introduce predators into the, you know, apex predators into the mix. And then, which is not to say predators, because we're not doing predator. No one should feel. Let's be clear.

No one should feel like I just revealed anything. Predator is also the name for a type of animal. Babu, we wanted to ask you, we are just absolutely obsessed with your performance. we think Marrow is such a fascinating character. We get to spend some time learning more about his backstory. And I was interested. We've seen this story of betraying the crew on an alien in an alien story before. Usually it's for cold calculated programming or corporate greed.

But I found it so interesting to hear Maro describe this passionately as his life's work. And I was wondering if you could talk about that motivation, especially when we learn what happened with his daughter and everything that we find out in episode five. I mean, yeah, when Noah talked to me about what happened with his daughter, I already had that drive anyway with some of the relationship he's got with Utani. It also gets revealed in this episode that she took him off the street, that great line, a feral boy with a palsied arm. And it made me think, well, how did he end up on the street?

He got abandoned. If he's found and he's given an opportunity, why is he going to be? been an opportunity, the fiercest thing he'd ever seen. So he understands his utility, it's his fierceness, and he's got to keep doing that. And then you add into the mix, genius by Noah, that he's got a daughter. And then I started thinking, how did he date?

Who did he ever even have a child to do, right? So he's got a daughter who now is the most important thing in his life, and he's lost her. And he's lost her in a way that if he had been there, maybe something different would have happened. So that made me take it further down, the line in the life's work thought that

well if he's gone to outer space and he's lost his daughter and then it all comes to nothing so what was it all for like he sacrificed one of the most important things in his life the most important person in his life

essentially and you know I don't know I'm a father I believe that if Morrow had been there he might have that the outcome would not have been the same So he now has to find a reason to keep going. You know, this has to be his life, saving, getting these creatures and completing his mission. That's what I interpret with this. But he also says to slightly people do terrible things in the name of loyalty, right? Like he's aware that loyalty, which he is fiercely loyal to this woman who is dead, right?

this, you know, who took him in. He sacrificed his daughter for her. He sacrificed 65 years for her. So, yeah, he's in a, he's, he's really in a bind. But, but, you know, he has this code. And what I love about this, this hour is that, you know, it makes, it makes Mara undeniable as a hero in this story. Interesting. Okay. That, okay, there's a lot of places we could go from here. We want to ask about a number of things that you both just said. Let's go with heroes and villains, because that was, that was on our mind, you know, there's this wonderful ensnaring of slightly in Marrow's trap through this very potent idea to a child, but to everyone throughout their life, you know, am I the hero, right? Can I be the

hero? I'm going to tell myself I'm the hero. And of course, it's always a matter of perspective. It's always in the eye of the beholder. And one of the things that we have really loved about watching Marrow as a character is the way that that perspective shifts. Because, like, deniably, we have seen him do villainous things or allow villainous things to unfold and transpire. He has shown us that self-loathing as he has to reconcile with the choices that he has made, asks these more innocent figures in front of him, would you have done these things that I did? Like, what would it mean if you had? But then when we see him in direct opposition to somebody who is putting such evil into the world,

like a force like Boy Cavalier, how can we not find ourselves rooting for him to win? And doesn't that make him a hero? So I think like that's such an interesting dance to have to manage, right? Where it's not necessarily, it feels like to me about telling us definitively in each moment what is true. It's more about us watching the characters have to reflect on that and think about that and kind of move between barriers. So I'm wondering both in terms of the performance but also the writing and the thematic, resonance of that. Are we moving toward like a clear, decisive answer? Is that the goal or is it more about how those shifts between the various states, like what that causes us to do when we're

reflecting on our own lives? Well, I think it's, you know, alien. There's a large gray area morality-wise, you know, and it's not as black and white as some other franchises are. And And, you know, I do a lot of storytelling with villains and heroes. And I never want the violence that is inevitable to be entertainment. And so, you know, it's really important that we shift points of view back and forth between these characters. And I do think that he is correct in saying, you know, if you stole this from me, how is it wrong for me to take it back? Now, the means and the ends aren't necessarily justifying, right? You can't do evil things to achieve a good end and be considered good in the New Testament way, right?

But I'm not sure we're living in a New Testament moment right now. And I know that I see memes of two different guys writing AI Eagles right now, and both of them are heroes to somebody. Sure. I wanted to ask, Babu, did you have anything you wanted to add in that question? Okay, great. Well, I wanted to ask, I've been thinking a lot about, you know, as we go through this series, we've been revisiting and revisiting the rest of the installments in the franchise. And there's this, you know, very famous line that Ash has in the first alien movie,

where he says, where he calls the xenomorph, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, and delusions of morality. He's admiringly saying this. And I was curious if that idea of survival at any cost, if that is something you think about as you apply it to to trillionaires, two synthetics, two hybrids, to characters all across this story, Noah. Well, I mean, you know, morality is a construct, right? And people buy into it and they don't, you know,

not everyone agrees on what morality is. And so, you know, what the greatest good for the most people is, you know, different people have seen it differently throughout history. You know, I think Boy Cavalier thinks that if he is going to offer people an immortality product, what does it matter if he owns the children who are the floor models, right? So because in the end it'll be great for humanity. You're going to love it. you know, I think that the creatures are uncomplicated by ulterior motives. And I think that Wendy has a child's romanticized idea of that, right? They didn't ask to be here. You know, they're just creatures trying to survive. Sure, maybe they're predators, but that's not because they're filled

with hate. You know, that's just their biological function. And I think that on the one hand, that's true. And on the other hand, you know, there's still incredibly dangerous creatures who might wipe out the entire species if you let them. So maybe we need a slightly more adult perspective. Some of the adults are watching children's cartoons throughout the series. We were curious about, like, the choices. You know, when Joe tells us about the legend of Mr. October, like we understand why, his father, you would have passed this on to him, right? And we also understand as the audience, like what we're supposed to take from this,

what it means to be asked to meet the moment. We have these sequences with the Ice Age films or the animated film epic. And curious, like, especially given the concentration in 2010 animated films that seem to have, like, made it into this future, what is on your mind when you're selecting these sliver? of pop culture to port forward into the future. Like, what does that tell us either in terms of the text itself or just more broadly the type of story and the type of experience that people in this future still choose to revisit and choose to share? Like, what are they finding there and why did you

choose to center those particular tales? I mean, sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon on some level. I thought that to the guy reading Peter Pan into his microphone. Well, before it was a cartoon, it was a very disturbing book of, quote, children's literature. You know, I'm sure Babu has his own answer to this movie, but if you ask me what movie I've seen more than any other movie in my life, having two children under the age of 20, it's going to be Ice Age. There was a moment with my son where I literally, you know, because of course there's five of them or whatever,

and whenever I ask them what is... Oh, California, that's my... Right. Oh, yeah, yeah. We've seen a lot of those too. So, you know, it's a big part of a family, right? Those movies, those stories. And it's not just because I work for Disney.

It's because I have a family. And, you know, I was looking for an economical way to show a bond between a brother and a sister of vastly different ages. And, you know, this was something that they did together that's visual. that I could show to the audience that has a certain, you know, has a certain, you know, romanticism to it. And, you know, and then the Peter Pan obviously is tied thematically into the concept of these hybrids, et cetera. So, I mean, there was, there was part of me that knew that in turning a, you know, an R-rated monster survival story into what is hopefully, you know, a very accessible, you know, large-scale, television epic that I need to make a show that appeals to both younger and older people as well,

you know. All right, let's pick up the Peter Pan thread. Mallory and I have been diving back into this very, yes, disturbing text. And enjoying our time, of course, with Captain Hook, who gets his comp in Morrow. we even get some cigar smoking for morrow very captain hook thing to do i'm curious for you babu like how much is that uh on your mind this seduction of a lost boy some a very hook thing to do how much is that character comp on your mind as you're going forward not at all not at all six days ago when i've joined social media as part of this i've been on social media for like

five years. And somebody sent me a comp, basically, of whose little boy cavaliers, and I'm Captain Hook, and the Zipovovic crocodile. And so when I saw that, I went, you know, of course, then I saw the hook and the arm and everything else, and it brought something. But, no, it's just that seduction of slightly, you know, that's right on the line, you know, with grooming, this poor kid, it's, that's down to Noah and just that incredible scene. And that was actually my first experience of this script

is reading that scene. That's the first thing I did before I went and read all the episodes. And I remember reading it thinking, whoa, this is an interesting, this is on the line. I find myself a little bit. And what your character to be at least a little bit of love. Well, another element that felt really important in expanding from a two-hour movie to a long-form story is expanding the definition of horror, right?

Which, you know, in the alien movies, it's obviously there's the body horror of it and the creature horror. But, you know, here I'm just amplifying a real moral horror of the things that people do to each other that is certainly present in those first couple of films and Fincher's film. But, you know, here it really is the horrors of the adult world, right, the things that adults do. Because these kids don't know. You've got to teach them how to hate. You've got to teach them how to deceive. And so, you know, this man who is telling this child, you know, you said something very wise to me that everybody needs a friend. Will you be my friend?

I mean, it's so awful and manipulative. and it's horrifying, right? And that horror permeates the rest of the horror. So that felt like a, you know, a sort of essential expansion. I think one of the things that we've really loved about the way the season is unfolding and like the peeling back of the layers episode after episode so that we gain further understanding of what drove a character to the point is the way that that, you know, what might seem in a given moment,

like moral certainty on our part as viewers, that immediately becomes more complex than that. So to that point, like, when we're watching Morrow use slightly as a tool, we're repelled by that. How could we not be? That's what we're meant to feel. But I found myself in episode five when we learned basically that the parallel, which you already invoked Bob,

but when we learned that he is a boy with a palsied arm was brought in by Uttani and then turned into a cyborg and sent out to gather her specimens. I'm like, okay, so he was her lost boy, right? the parallel there feels very clear. And so then I start to wonder, who is he seeing when he looks at slightly? Is it his daughter, like we originally believed, or is it himself? Or is it both? And then which of those forces wins out at the end of the day? If he goes back, obviously, you guys are not going to tell us what happens in the future episodes. We're not asking you to, but like, you know, when we learn about his daughter's death and we see her effects are waiting for you upon your return,

I'm like, what happens if he goes and collects those and looks at them and feels that surge of a human connection to what was lost. Does it further cement him in this calcified, well, that was what I was robbed and deprived of? Or wait, I remember what it was like to be young or to care for somebody who was young. Like, Baba, when you're playing Morrow, are you trying to occupy, do you feel you have to occupy

all of those spaces and ages and states of circumstance at once? Do you feel that you were more firmly rooted in one of those perspectives? I'm the kid or I'm the father? I mean, it's just so many things happen. tomorrow throughout the series in terms of where he goes and the types of people he meals with. Even in episode five, suddenly he's with a group of people. Suddenly he's in a corporation.

It's not like a lone wolf walking around a planet trying to figure out how to get what he needs to get done. He has to work with Cepare. You know, and that sort of disgusted me slightly. I wanted to almost be back on Earth dealing with slightly. But I had to ask myself, but when he works with slightly, there has to be a different, something different going on. When he's talking to Kirst, there has to be something different going on. But with slightly in particular, obviously, we only see a few of the conversations he has. There's a hint that there's more that happens behind the scenes. I think that on some level,

there is something about talking to a 10-year-old that's just going to be different for him. What Noah was saying earlier about you'd have to teach him to hate, you have to teach him to lie. there is probably something quite honest and simple and forthright about slightly that I think penetrates moral on some level. So when he says to him, she hated raisins, you know, file, which, you know, when I was doing it, I wasn't thinking of that. But when I saw it, I thought, oh, okay, interesting little moment there. Maybe there's a moment of enjoyment of dealing with a kid. Who are you going to tell? What adult are you going to tell about raisins except one of the kids?

so yeah i definitely lent into that of there's something there between him and slightly that grows he has to do what he has to do but there's a moral horror but it does grow um in terms of the transition for slightly from child to child and synthetic body other than this manipulative relationship he finds himself and things are going pretty well not so much for our girl nibs and so I wanted to ask you, Noah, to talk a little bit about, obviously, there's places we're going to go. We have not watched ahead. We don't know. But like, from what we're getting so far with Nibs and that absolutely startling scene with Dame Sylvia, what were you most interested in exploring inside of that character?

Well, in many ways, it's another example of hubris, right, to think that they could take not just one child and transfer them to. a synthetic body, but to take, you know, all of these children and that they would all get through it just fine and just have to grow up. But, you know, clearly, I mean, we don't know yet much about who Nibs was as a child, but clearly there's some instability there and the experiences that she had so quickly after her transition and going out to this. crash site and experiencing this this creature that wanted to get inside of her body, which made her think, well, what is my body even? And then, and then this disassociative state that she entered into. I mean, I think Alien is very much about the creation of monsters,

right? And we're learning in episode five for those people who might consider Morrow a monster. how was that monster created, you know, over all these years, these circumstances where he would be willing to do whatever it took to get these creatures back. And, you know, if there is a battle for all of these children's souls, you know, if Nibs can't be grounded in the reality that other people are real or, you know, her delusions, then she's almost more dangerous than the creatures because she's operating in a diluted state. She's not a creature, you know, simply trying to eat. Boy. That's dark. Grim. Harrowing. Almost as harrowing. Almost. As hearing boy cavalier, credit, you know, at a certain point, technology is indistinguishable from magic to Isaac Asimov instead of Arthur C. Clark's.

Three laws. It's really, that he credited anyone and didn't just own it himself. Well, so this guess what we wanted to ask you because I don't know if you could tell we're we're sci-fi nerds here and like to go to literary corner every so often. And so we have been genuinely like obsessed with this. Yeah. What it tells us what it means that he pointed to Asimov instead of Clark. Is it boys too busy to pay attention he actually doesn't know?

Like is this some sort of commentary on his attention to detail? Is his intellect that he thinks? thinks is so extraordinary. Is it, hey, you know what? Clark and Asimov, famous peers and rivals, and this is a commentary on boy, maybe being drawn toward or gravitating toward the guy, not the originator, but the one who said, let me toy with that. Let me play with it. Let me spin it and reposition it and put it out to the world in a slightly different way. And in terms of, like, his corporate rivalry with Utani or anybody else in the five, that that's the perspective that he aligns with in favors? Like, what are we meant to glean from this?

It's whatever agitates you the most is the answer. Okay. I'm going to go with then the fact that he was probably reading the quote in the first place on his iPad. Why holding it with his feet. I'm going to go with that then. He used chat GPT and it misappropriated the quote as it does with so many. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there you go.

That's probably it. Sounds right. You know, we mentioned some of our favorite characters in the season so far. Top of the list, honestly, genuinely, is the eyeball monster, who we call the eyeball jockey because it rides around people. But you can call it as a scientific name, I know. But that's what we say. I'm curious, you know, as you're dreaming up all these other monsters inside of this world,

what was it about the eyeball and the way in which it takes over and its cunning intelligence was sort of most interesting to you? Well, you know, anything above the neck is pretty disturbing, right? And the face hugger obviously is very much a smothering, gagging. You know, it's very penetrative in that way. And I think that we've lived with that fear for 40 years. I just moved up a couple of holes, right? And, you know, and people get squeamish about it on the poster.

People get squeamish a couple about eyeballs and, you know, they're very strange gelatinous things. So I think there's something disturbing just from a physical standpoint. But I think there's also something disturbing to the idea of just a total loss of control that you would be walking around, you know, and everyone would look at you and see you, but you wouldn't be you. It's an invasion of the body snatcher's kind of element to it as well. That where, you know, we don't know, is it irreversible? Is it, you know, are you still alive? We don't know any of those things yet in the story.

But what we do know is it's a bad day. It's a bad day. That's a very morrow of you. I'm just going to have one bad day. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Oh, man. Now I'm thinking about the cat again, and now I'm upset.

So this is a, now is a tough one. Did it? Was that, like, number one on your to-do list? That cat had other problems, if you noticed. I did. I did. I did notice the back half, and you're obviously just focused on neck up as you just told us with the eyeball jockey. But still, deeply distressing.

Deeply distressing. Schmull had an encounter with the eyeball jockey as well with T.S. And I don't know if you'll indulge us for a moment with this hypothetical thought experiment, but we were really struck by how Schmoul and Malachite really felt like they would be at home in a season of Fargo. And if you could universe swap any of your creations, who from Alien do you think would best fit in one of your other worlds, Fargo, Legion, or otherwise? And is there anybody from one of those stories who you'd love to be able to bring into Alien Earth? Well, I did literally use three actors from Fargo on the Maginot. So I think I've answered that question already.

You know, I would certainly, I would stand behind Patrick Wilson in any heroic circumstance for sure. So he's the first one that comes to mind. But, you know, I do think that I really, you know, it was a tall order, right, in the course of 51 minutes, in the middle of a show about other characters to introduce this whole crew, right, to make them, each of them distinctive with dynamics and relationships that you invested in and understood. And I just find there's something so endearing about dumb characters, you know, for Malachi, who doesn't even know what an apprentice is and thinks of Saboteur is at a Frenchman, you know.

And then Schmoul who's, you know, who's trying to get him to cut his pie in half so he can have two pies. And, you know, there's something very, I always thought of that first alien movie as a bit like waiting for Godot, right? You have these characters, they're going to a place they don't know where

to do a thing they don't know what. For people they don't know who, right? and they're talking about the shares and the pay. You know, it's very blue collar. And I really thought that those guys down in engineering gave me that verote. We've already mentioned a couple of Morrow moments that we absolutely love. But I think the thing that sort of put our jaws on the floor, especially inside of the alien franchise that has so much to do with what is a human,

what is a man, is this, wouldn't that be nice to be all machine instead of what I am the worst parts of a man. What a, what a bar, what a banger of a line. Gorgeous. How are you thinking about, you know, you've already mentioned a little bit, but how are you thinking about this mechanical aspect? I mean, you mentioned it might interfere with his dating life, but I don't know, I think some women would love to date a cyber. Could be an enhancement. Yeah. I think it might be an advantage. But like, but what are you thinking about that cybernetic part of him. And what are the worst parts of a man? What does he feel like is left over for him here?

Oh, I have many different interpretations of that. You know, like we all have a sort of silent loathing for our bodies. I don't know anybody. I know very few people who are happy with the way they look and feel physically. So there was that element that I went to. And of course, with an enhancement, you think, well, the rest of it is the weak link. It's the limit to how far you can go in terms of what heroic things you can do. But I also thought of it in terms of his emotional life. Like I think on some level, he wishes he was more curse,

able to control his emotions completely. Like, not even half of them, because what do they do to you? He's unable to be as observed and be as sharp. He has to sort of push them down. So I think that's what I meant, the worst part of the man, sweat, pain, emotions,

a weak body, whatever it may be. Yeah, that's what I learned to learn towards. Would you still have to be Kirsch if you were required to bleach your eyebrows in order to do it? Would I say that? If you had to bleach your eyebrows

in order to do it, would you still? It's a memorable hairstyle. It is. It leaves an impression. All right, I'm going to end on something that I don't think Noah will answer. Then there will be a short answer. For the internet.

Help for Reddit. What did Grandma Utani know and when? Just in terms of the canon time, time, and what insights we have from other properties in the franchise about who learned what when. Is this something that will be revealed in the future, either in this season? Is this an area of your story that you're interested in exploring more in the future? Obviously, this would be updating some core mythology if there are insights about what level of specific. the specific knowledge on the xenomorpher specimen, more broadly front, Waylon Utani had when the Maginose set out.

Of course, this story is set nearly proximate to alien, but it is post-Promatius. But the Maginos sets out pre-Prometheus, right? So I'm like, is she crushing alien versus predator tape? Like what is leading to this level of awareness of what weights out there or how general or specific was the pursuit? Is there anything you can tell us right now on that? front or will these answers come in time or will they never come at all? Well, instead of answering that question, I'm going to present you with this decorative plaque that says, biggest nerd.

Oh, thank you. That's really nice. What an honor. That's beautiful. I have done a lot of press in promoting this show. And you are by far the biggest nerd that I've spoken to. And you should feel good about that. I do.

This is, I'm thrilled. I'm going to put that plaque next to Wendy's drawing of Joe's face, and I'm going to have it in my bedroom next to my charging pod. Excellent. Sounds great. I'm thrilled. All right. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. What a chat that one. I mean, Rob, don't you agree? It went so well. Oh, rip-roaring. Could not miss a second of it.

Just incredible stuff from both of you, especially. Oh, man. man, guys. Maro might have said 10 more people with feelings. No, can't have it. But for us, that was exactly what we needed for this episode. Big team up today, the whole crew. Rob, you were here with us. Noah Hawley and Babu Sisei were here with us. Carlos Chiroboga, John Richter, Arjuna Arjuna Ramgo Pabble, Jomea, Deneron. It's our own little Maginos space crew. Hopefully it goes better for all of us than it did for them, if not dibs on the impact chamber.

Just an absolute thrill to be here with you guys to talk about this. I can't wait to do episode six together next week. Likewise. Bye. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars.

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