House of R - Analyzing ‘Hawkeye’ Episode 3

Episode Date: December 4, 2021

Mal and Joanna hop in the Challenger and dive deep into Episode 3 of 'Hawkeye', titled "Echoes" (06:29). They praise the introduction of Echo as an antagonist and what they would like to see for her in the episodes to come. They also speculate on the arrival of Kingpin to this series (48:47), touch on the growing dynamic of Clint and Kate Bishop (76:43), and answer your mailbag questions with Jomi (98:18). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Comes a lot of sacrifices. And some things you'll lose forever. Oh, there's also things you gain. Like trick arrows and cool costume. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to KB Toys, but also to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed

for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished up her shift at Trust a Bro Moving Company, it's my house of our working title. Co-host, Ringer Senior Staff Writer, Joanna Robinson, you good, bro? I'm pretty good, bro.

I have a question. If I bought you a pair of Imagine Dragons tickets, would you take me or would you take someone else? I promise that if you ever gift me with concert tickets, I can assure you I will not take someone else. I will either take you or just say, really appreciate the gesture. Why don't you just use these? Because I'm not a big concert goer. You're like sounds like a living nightmare to me. We all know these are for you.

So have fun. Do you do that, Joanna? Do you gift people, things that are really meant for you? Probably. But not intentionally. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Not intentionally.

But do you realize that it's a thing you've done? Yeah, years later. Years later? I think so. Wow. I, uh, on the home front had an experience literally yesterday where both my husband and I realized that we had done that with that day's Hanukkah gifts. So this one really hit this week.

What were they? Can you share? I can. Yeah, sure. We're really just, oh, boy, we're just on one of our classic tangents here midway through the intro. I love it.

I received a pair of sunglasses. I don't currently have a pair of sunglasses. I live in a sunny place, Southern California. And so I really should have a pair. Yeah. And Adam gifted me a pair of sunglasses, very thoughtful. However, they were definitely just a pair that he liked for him.

They had like a camo design, this really like highly reflective mirror look. They were kind of like too big for my face and not in a hip way, though perhaps I'm just not like hip enough to pull that off. That's distinctly possible. You're describing like a duck dynasty sort of vibe off of these sunglasses. Is that what you're talking about? No, not quite, no. But they did end up within mere moments on his own face. And they look great on him, I got to say.

I had gifted him some gold belly orders of some New York delicacies, including a dozen donuts from donut plant, and within minutes of opening the box I had eaten too. So, you know, he got to enjoy them as well, but I was partaking. This is just one night of Hanukkah. I love it. I love it. Oh, boy.

Well, we are not here only to talk about gift giving. We are here, of course, to chat. about echoes, the fantastic third episode of Hawkeye. We have so much to get to today, but a few programming reminders, as always, before we dive in to the take quiver, which is just full. Regular take arrows, trick take arrows, all of it. My putty takes, my suction cup takes. Waiting for those acid takes, you know? That's what people really tune in for.

They burn, they burn. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles. Poo-Pew! Poo! Got a Poo Poo Poo in this episode, as you noted, Joe. We'll be back next Wednesday with their instant reaction to what is somehow already the fourth episode of Hawkeye. Astonishing stuff. Unbelievable.

We're halfway done. It's so sad. Great Midnight Boys this week. This is a quick and quiet little moment that I just loved so much when Charles said he wanted, you know, five to ten more minutes of Ronan and end game. and Van was like, they had lives to save. People to bring back from the dead. Wonderful little exchange. Joanna and I will, of course, be back with you next Friday for our Hawkeye episode

four. Deep dive, we are all having so much fun talking about this show. So please keep tuning in. You can do that by following the pod on Spotify. By the way, to all the people who are following the pod on Spotify, thank you for tagging us in your Spotify wrapped notices that warmed our heart. It was really wonderful to see.

It made us so happy. And of course, follow our social feeds. The ringer versus on Twitter, the ringer versus on Instagram, the ringer versus on Facebook. The ringer versus everywhere. Bear in mind as well.

Our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot details from this most recent episode of Hawkeye, the entire Hawkeye run to date, the entire MCU run to date, and Marvel Comics canon. All of it. We're even going to dip into some Netflix Marvel canon

later in today's show. So proceed with more caution than the track suit Dracula's did when faced with a PIM particle arrow. Let's pod bro. Let's do it, bro. Joanna, this episode, mid-season mark, episode three, echoes written by Katie Matthewson and Tanner Bean

directed by Bert and Bertie, quick overall snapshot of your impressions. What did you think? I thought it was tremendous. I think that, you know, some people in the, I really love the first two episodes as we discussed last week, but I think some people who weren't as over the moon about them thought maybe they felt a little slow. I would agree with the critique that maybe the action wasn't quite like up to snuff in the

two episodes. Just some of the fights seemed a little jangy to me. Throw all those concerns out the windows. This is like a no-holds-barred action fest with a lot of emotional beats sort of sandwiched in between, which is incredible, like the balance of the action and the emotion. And I mean, what it means to me is that that slow-slower start of the first two episodes, even though there was plenty going on, that's necessary groundwork that they have to lay so that we care that Kate survives this car chase or whatever it is. You know, and a brand new character like Kate Bishop, we only met a couple episodes ago. I already care so much about her. And I think that's just the good work of the opening episodes of this season.

It is a short season. As we said, we're already halfway through. I can't believe it. I'm doing the thing already where I'm just talking about how sad I'm going to be when it's over instead of living in the moment. It's wrong with me. Mal was like, what am I going to do, Joanna? You texted me. I was like, we'll figure something out.

We'll find something to watch. moment because I was just so sad and you're like, you know, this is a special thing, but there will be more shows. There's always something. There's a lot more shows. How about you? How about you, Mel? What's your, overall? Loved it. Have loved all three. Love the show. What a phenomenal and enjoyable experience this has been. I agree with everything that you said. I thought that the action sequences and the brisk pace of this episode was just like a scintillating viewing experience, but to be able to marry that with those really moving character moments, moving in terms of how they impacted us and stayed with us and have lingered with us. I've revisited this episode. I've thought about it a lot since watching it,

and that applies to multiple characters, Echo, Kate, Clint, etc. But also how it moved the character arcs, how quickly key insights were established for us, which we'll talk about a bit more as we go today. Just a delightful, delightful, what I think ended up being

when you remove the previously on the opening logo and the end credits like 37 minutes of TV. Just a joy. I can't wait for the rest of the season. And I am really sad already that it's almost over, but I think that the back half of this is just going to be a sincere and genuine treat.

I talked to someone who worked on the show and they were like, you're going to really love the last three episodes. I was like, but I already love these episodes. He's like, no, you're really going to love the last three. And I was like, what is coming? Oh, my God. But yeah, like, to your point, I really like, I think that the relationship primarily relationship between Clint and Kate, which is the one that we are sort of most invested

in in the show, especially given all the things we talked about in the first episodes about... Well, I'm most invested in the relationship between Lucky and hopefully a well-balanced meal. But yes, I shouldn't speak for all of us. I forgot about your priorities. But especially like what we talked about in terms of Jeremy Renner's Clint Barton and, you know, maybe that he wasn't the most popular character. And maybe some folks had, you know, weren't so excited to hang with him for six episodes. I think already we've seen so much development and that dynamic between the two of them I think is really strong. And there's just little moments, little toss-away moments.

Like, they're big emotional moments. When there's little moments like when I think it's Echo or one of the tracksuits, someone asks them what they're doing there. Clint starts to answer, but Kate also says, learning about trust. Trust. This is like something she throws in there. And it all just like comes together in a very, I think, convincing way, you know,

through the action into the emotional beats. So, yeah. Guess what? It's a good show. It's a good show, Mal. It really is. It's been such a pleasure. I'm curious what you think the primary theme of this show is. Like, what overarching thematic throughlines are standing out to you, both inside of this episode in particular, but the season as a whole so far and what you think the ultimate theme of the show might be at the end? Like, what is Hawkeye about? And I don't want to be reductive. Like, obviously, this show and any other show, it's not just about one thing.

And, of course, there are these overarching themes across phase four, as we have discussed many times, that connect a lot of this early phase four storytelling, these kind of bridge stories passed into the future, mantle passing, et cetera. But I do think that you could make the case, at least, that again, while acknowledging there are multiple themes at play in all of these stories, that each live action, Disney Plus, MCU show to date had a dominant theme. You know, Wanda Vision really explored how characters work through grief, right, and the toll of that trauma.

Falcon explored identity and Loki explored purpose. And all of those shows explored many other things as well, but those were kind of the through lines. What do you think that will be or is at this point in Hawkeye? I think there are a few different candidates. Well, I'm going to shamelessly crib off of our producer, Steve, who picked a clip for the intro, talking about the price of being a superhero, the cost of being a superhero. And I think, you know, in our interview with Reese Thomas, I think he said something similar.

I think Fraction said something similar as well. Like, this is all about... Can I make an observation? Yeah. One of the things that you do that I find just so generous of spirit and just genuinely touching as a person who works with you is the way you say our interview when it's something that you did by yourself. I just find it like honestly very moving. It's the show's interview with.

It's ours. It's very sweet. But it's the cost, the toll, the sacrifices. Clint is such a good vehicle for that kind of story because he is the one who is most apparently bruised and battered physically by this. And so when we're examining the emotional, personal cost, the sacrifices, which we get not just in his overt discussion of it in the diner scene, but in that phone call scene, what, yeah, what you lose to do this. And I think maybe the overall question will be,

is it worth it to do it anyway? Do you know? To quote another, to cite another Jeremy Runner property, arrival, arrival, a incredible, not mayor of Kingston. I'm not watching. Pivot to the Sheridan Hive here. I'm ready to talk about. about Yellowstone with you whenever you'd like. Okay. Okay. I have so many John Dutton thoughts. But in Arrival, there is, that's the over, like, she did it anyway is like the takeaway

from arrival without spoiling specific things. And so it's like, you do it anyway. You sacrifice all these things and you do it anyway and there's a reason you do it. I don't know. What do you think? Oh, yeah. Boy. Arrival.

Great movie. based on a truly incredible short story. I think that's exactly right and seems central, especially rich to analyze those questions through the lens of this pairing and this partnership between Clint and Kate because you have someone who is at the outset. I mean, Kate has been doing this for a long time and has the roots and the origin of her desire

to fight and protect, obviously go back to 2012, as we saw in the opening sequence of episode one, but she is, she's at the beginning of the hero game. And Clint has been through it. And so what is ultimately harmonious and shared in their perspectives and what varies, I think will be, is already really interesting and will be fascinating to continue to track. I think for me, and this is inextricable from what you just outlined, I think, you know, completely related, the weight of the past.

You know, I think of this episode name echoes, which is, of course, about, Maya Lopez echo but it's also about the echoes of the past more broadly through these characters' lives and through this story and through the MCU at large

you know thinking of a moment like in the comic when echo says thinking of the handprint that William leaves on her face that bloody hamprint which of course we got in this episode you know he leaves me with only his echo

how many echoes are there for all of these characters Ronin, lost fathers, lost friends and partners and teammates like Nat, Clint's hearing loss and that physical toll of this work, you know, that moment when Kate is talking about like the just that sense of purpose and like so assured that this is what she wants to do. And it's really heartbreaking to hear Clint reply. You know, I remember the day I thought the same thing, like it's so far away from where he is right now. And when he says, you know, it comes with the price, you think of all the prices and all the way those prices manifest, right? It's Nat. It's the distance he feels with his family right now. It's the part of himself that he's

lost through the years as Ronan, et cetera. It's heavy, man, and a very cheerful show. I think if you, if we want to, like, pull forward a little bit of theory craft, like, the conversation we had last week and we will continue to have this week about what's going on with Eleanor and if there is like some like villainous reveal coming for her. And you're talking about Kate being at the beginning of her journey. Like that's, you know, we only have three episodes to go, but that is potentially a rude awakening coming for Kate is this sort of having the rug pulled out from under her about not only her mom, but potentially also her father and all these things that she thinks, you know, so that's a, that's a price she's going to pay for getting involved in all of this before the. season is done. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And I think that connects to what is one of the other through lines. Of course, this question of identity when they're talking about, you know, the branding issues or the way we see Hawkeyes roll within and outside of the Avengers. But then the way that

sense of self, how you view yourself, how the world views you connects to the trust, right? and the partnership and the ties that bind. Like I think that idea of the ties that bind is really, really central here. You know, even just looking at this episode and the fact that we have pairs directing it, a pair writing it. Oh, it's a good point.

You know, obviously, like this episode is so much about these pairings that define the story and these characters' lives. Obviously, there's a lot of discussion, as you noted, of trust and, you know, even something like Kate saying, all right, partner, like using that word partner. all of these pairings that are defining this show and the story, you know, Kate and Clint and her dad, Kate and her mom, Jack and Eleanor, Clint and his children, you know, Nathaniel in this episode, Lila previously. Echo and William, Echo and Kazi, like on and on the list goes. There are these factions, but then there are these duos within that. And it's, again, like so much of the jovial spirit and the Christmas spirit and this condensed time frame with that march toward Christmas, as you noted last episode and the action, to be able to like imbue the episodes with

that kind of thematic resonance while still moving at such a brisk pace. And the first thing you think when you finish it is, man, that was fun. And then you're like, wow, I'm just going to go cry for 30 minutes while I think about that phone call again. Yeah. It's amazing. They're doing a lot and they're doing it well. Can I hop on your analysis of the title train also? You talked about like echoes in the past. Maybe you meant this as well, but I think a lot about the like resonant echoes of Kate and Echo as echoes

of each other in terms of like what they share. Like, you know, the loss of the father. All like how Clint is question mark may be involved in both their backstories, the training, all of that sort of stuff. They're sort of mirrors of each other as they go forward.

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You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Remember for your match, it's more about speed than size. Uncle, we'll take you home after class. I'll see you tonight. So should we talk about this introduction of Echo? Let's do it. Okay, let's talk about this.

All right, all right. So they cram an origin story for a character with all the trappings, the dead parent, like the training, all of that in, what is it? Five minutes? Is it even that long? I think it's like ends at the seven-ish minute mark of the episode, but that includes the previously on and the opening one of the wordmark.

So yeah, you're talking about a handful of minutes. And we are invested. And like, so there's a, and there's a couple of factors that play here. I mentioned before we started recording that Chris and Andy over on the watch were not as much of a fan of this episode as we were. And Andy was sort of objecting to this idea

of putting this dough-eyed little girl at the beginning of an episode to get us to care. And I could see how, if it were done differently, that would feel manipulative to me as well. But I thought this was done so elegantly a big part of that was the use of Zahn McLarnan, who is an incredible, incredible, incredible TV actor.

He was phenomenal. And I just, I thought, it's too short. Like, I knew Zon was in the cast. I think I talked about him on a previous episode, about how excited I was to see him. We got very little of him, but a lot of, a lot of juice for those couple of minutes. But as William, as her father,

his love for her and her bond with him was just, I mean, just really incredible stuff. And you think about like other origin stories that take up a whole entire movie and don't manage to have the same kind of emotional resonance as this did, at least for me. So, yeah. Yeah, I think before we dive into some of what we learned from a story perspective further, you're right to just highlight how effective this was as an opening note. And it's obviously not the, I mean, I thought everything we got with Echo in this episode was incredible. But it's also not the first time that we've gotten something like this in the Hawkeye run to date.

You know, you noted those parallels between Kate and Echo. And one of the parallels is just from a structural storytelling perspective in the sense that the deftness that is required to give us everything we got in the opening backstory, origin story for King's. in episode one and the opening for Maya here, like in less capable hands, those scenes and sequences, because we obviously got more than one moment in time and more than one scene with each character, they're not only don't feel this effective,

they're bad, right? They're rushed, they're crammed. It just feels purely like exposition to get us where we need to be. And these don't feel that way at all. They don't feel forced. They don't feel rushed despite how contained they are. They are functioning as crucial exposition, but also, and this is like coming up time and time again already, also working so effectively as crucial character building.

And I think one of the things that's really struck me is not only how well they work in a vacuum for the characters who are at the center, but what it speaks to about, the task at large here. Like, we don't need a moment like that or a sequence like that for Clint, of course, because we have spent years and years and years with Clint in the MCU, right? We know so much about Clint, but he is surrounded by characters who we need to become quickly just as invested in and haven't spent any time with it all inside of the MCU. It's funny. I was just, as you were saying that, I was just thinking about, like, what other characters we have. Could we see something else like that? Yes, I wanted to ask you this. Who do you think?

I mean, we could get it for Eleanor because she's like hinted at the fact that she, you know, she didn't grow up rich. Like, how did she get where she is? I've since sort of gotten deep into the theories about Eleanor and, like, folks have pointed out that, like, she shows very quick reflexes in the first episode when she sort of flips that grape or whatever it is she does into her mouth or like. So, like, what kind of training did Eleanor have? like what is her story? So it's possible. And then I was thinking, oh, and then Yelena's showing up. And I was like, wait, we got this for Yelena in the beginning of Black Widow movie. You and I had a really fun time talking about. And they did this really efficiently for Yelena as well at the beginning of that film. So, yeah, I don't know. Is there anyone else you want to see their backstory? Well, obviously we got a glimpse of Maya at the end of episode two, but this was really our true introduction to her just as the beginning of episode one was our introduction to Kate. And so I I wonder if we would get something like this for a character who's already in the show. I thought, okay, could we get something like this for Kazi, you know, to learn more about his backstory?

But has he been in the show too much already to pan back in that way? I'll be curious to see, I guess, if they expand it. If they do, then I agree, Eleanor, it has to be on the list and high on the list. Jack as swordsmen similarly, I mean, we're going to talk about Uncle. We're going to talk about our, you know, the king, the kingpin of it all. a lot as we go today. So could we get something like this for Kingpin inside of the MCU? That would be a pretty fun way to kick off, let's say, the finale.

And if we did, like, I think it's really interesting that episode two ends with, like, Echo showing up as a threat and episode three ends with Jack showing up as a threat. And, like, right at the end, like, cliffhangers in a way that Marvel TV doesn't usually do, you know? And like, how are they going to get out of this one is sort of how the last two episodes have ended? Or last three, actually. I mean, yeah, episode one ends that way too. It's not a foe, but it's still like, oh, shit, who is this person in front of me? And what does this mean?

Yeah. And that, to me, feels very, like, again, it reinforces the idea of episodes as issues. You know what I mean? And if there is, like, a central body of the weak sort of thing, that's an old, like, Buffy trope. But if there is, like, it could be fun if next week is a Jack episode and the following week is a Yelena episode and, you know, then maybe an Eleanor episode, something like that. I'm not sure it'll be that clean, but that could be really fun, I think, you know. Yeah. I love this. This is great. Where broadly does Maya's intro in this episode rank for you? You don't necessarily have to do an actual order, but like maybe more what does it, how is it making you feel like we talked about this last episode? Oh, you know, Kate, this is such an incredibly strong onboarding of a crucial character.

Yeah. And that was how we felt about Yelena. That was how we felt about King. So we're on a really good run here in phase four of meeting new characters who are going to be incredibly important to the rest of phase four and hopefully beyond and becoming very gripped by their stories very quickly. Does that give you, not that your confidence was wavering necessarily, but does that give you more confidence moving forward?

What's your read on all of that? Yeah, like I'm so excited. Like, every time I get uncertain, there's, there are things that I'm uncertain about in the future of Marvel. But, like, every time they drop one of these new characters in, I'm like, okay, okay, Maya Lopez. Okay, Kate Bishop. Yeah, I don't know how to rank it. I will just say that, like, I loved all of these intros. Jonathan Majors' Kang just, like, kind of blew my mind in a way that I'm still not recovered from.

So that's probably, if I had to pick one, it would be that one. But, yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to discuss here about the parallels that you mentioned between the Kate and Echo origin opening parallels in terms of their fathers and the role that their fathers played in both of those snapshots? Well, what's interesting is that, like, I think we're, I mean, I'm deeply aboard the Derek Bishop is not dead train. Oh, here's another reinforcement. You know how my argument was, my main argument was. They age down Brian Darcy James, which is only, if you see West Side Story, whenever you get to see West Side Story and Brian Darcy James is in that, you'll, as the famed

Officer Kruppke, you will understand that, like, they have aged this gentleman down. And that's how I knew Zahn McClarner was toast, because when William showed up, I'm like, oh, they didn't age him down. He's not going to make it. It's not going to make it out. But he is going to make it into the echo spin off, I hope. There better be so many flashbacks. A lot of William.

Yeah. I want like full ghost dad. Like, give me Dexter ghost dad, like, 6'500 ghost dad. Like, give me, ghost dad's one of my least favorite tropes, but not if it's played by Zahn McLarnan. Okay. But our pals over in the Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, Poo, Van was talking about how he doesn't really enjoy sympathetic villains. And I'm the complete opposite. Like, I really love a conflict where I'm not sure who to root for in all of this.

I think that's, for me, a more satisfying story. And I love this introduction of Echo, someone that we are emotionally invested in. And I love this idea that, like, her dad, for all the fact that he was, like, in the track suit mafia, he's wearing a track suit, seems like such a good guy. Like, in that he was really doing this for, like, he had a reason to do this for his daughter, etc. Whereas Derek Bishop presents as, like, a nice dad, but I'm convinced that he's not a good guy. You know, so it's that nice little, like, flip of who's the villain, who's the hero here, etc. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah. You know, I love a sympathetic villain. I love a complex villain. I love characters who give us an opportunity to ask, well, what does it even mean to be a villain? And is that, like, even the term that we should be applying here? I mean, I think that, you know, in the comics, as we discussed briefly previously, Maya is, you know, connected to Kingpin, and Kingpin is the one in the comics who is responsible for her father, William's death, but he pins it on Daredevil, right? And so when Kingpin is in essence, you know, raising Maya as like a protege and working to cultivate these skills, she is associated with a character who is like an iconic villain.

in, right? But then it ultimately becomes a hero. So will that be the same sequence of events here and how quickly will that happen? Will we get to that point at the end of this series? Will that come in the ensuing echo show? And doesn't really matter what the timeline is because ultimately Maya is just so gripping and so interesting to watch. And I thought that the, we'll circle back to Uncle and Ronin and William and all of that in a minute here, but so much to discuss, my goodness. I know, I know. I just, I found those scenes between Maya and William, the conversation that they have when she is a child after coming back from that day at school, the brief exchange at the martial arts competition. And then, of course, the final exchange, when she finds him after Ronan has stabbed him, like, so touching, so, so, so beautiful to see their bond, to see how much he cares for her and how he guides her in terms of the way that she thinks about life in the world, just thought was, I was like, I was like,

Like, I could watch, I can watch these two together for hours. Like, I almost, I mean, as much as I want Echo to be set in the modern timeline and have a real impact on events, I'm like, give me a back story set years ago so that I could just spend more time with these two. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to totally cheat and go, you know, we have this, like, outline laid out. We don't always follow the outline, but I'm going to, like, really go off outline for a minute here and talk about how. Do it. There's this question of the, you know, you mentioned the plot line in the comics being that Kingpin. Who we suspect is probably this uncle, we and everyone else on the planet suspect

is probably this uncle character who shows up to pinch her cheek early in the series, in the season episode, that's what I mean to say, that he lies to her about who killed her dad and pins it on a hero. That has led some people to wonder

if maybe the Ronan that we see kill her father is not Clint, but actually someone else. And we can, like, and maybe that someone is Jack and we can talk and maybe that's why he wanted the Ronan sword. Maybe he's the original Ronan. And Clint picked up that persona from him and all of that.

So the bigger, and that's all possible. And that would be... I have so many thoughts. Well, that we'd closely to the comics canon. It would put position echo to have maybe a break with Kingpin. Maybe Kingpin ordered her father killed, you know, and is hiding it, et cetera, for some reason. It would put her in a position to maybe be a protagonist in her own show, maybe Charlie Cox's Daredevil shows up to like trainer and some new stuff.

Maybe King Pan and Kazi are the villains of that show. Who knows? Like all that sort of stuff. But the question at the center of that theory, just how dark are we willing to go with Clint Martin in this show, right? If we want to believe that this wasn't Clint, that Clinton could, Clint could never possibly killed her father. But her father was a criminal and he was killing criminals all through it.

Like, so how much are we actually going to? to reckon with what we saw him do in endgame or how much are we just going to say, well, that Ronan wasn't our Clint. That was Jack Duquesne. You know, like, what do you think? Boy. What a great question. I have so many thoughts.

Clear your schedules, folks. All right. Let me try to organize my thoughts for a second here. I'll start with the last point. I completely understand. why a lot of viewers are asking something like that this week. Like, how dark will we go?

Or, you know, we got a few mailback questions about this idea. Like, now that we've met William and have fallen in love with William and this relationship between William and Maya, like, would they dare to follow through on this and say that actually, when we see Ronan in Maya's memories,

killing not only William, but the rest of the track suits? at that base, like, would they make that Clint? I would posit that not only would they, but that that would be like the point, that the fact that Clint has done these things and is so haunted and that other people who have been impacted by his actions

are so haunted by the things that he did during those years as Ronan are not things that you can actually just walk away from an escape. That doesn't mean that Clint Barton or any other, you know, that other people don't deserve a second chance. And obviously, when Nat found him in Japan and endgame, that was what she tried to appeal to. And you get that heartbreaking moment where he says, you know, don't give me hope, right? But think of what we hear Clint say in Tokyo.

They got Thanos, you get me. Like this idea of unilateral vigilante justice where he is. the sole arbiter. And because he is suffering, everybody else needs to as well. You know, think of some of the things that Rody said to Nat in endgame to set her, that set her to find Clint in the first place, you know, talking about how the Federale's in Mexico found that room full of bodies and it looks like a bunch of cartel guys and they never even had a chance to get their guns off and his certainty, you know, it's definitely Barton. And one of the things that Rody says that always sticks with me is what he's done here, what he's been doing for the last few years,

right? So that establishes for us the time span during which Clint has been doing these things. I mean the scene he left, I got to tell you there's a part of me that doesn't even want to find him. Like, Clint was doing terrible things. And just because they are nominal quote unquote bad guys or involved in crime doesn't mean they're all bad people. And it doesn't mean he gets to make decision. And I think the show has to grapple with that to be as effective as we ultimately want it to be. And so while I think there are plenty of pathways to the theories of other characters actually being run in and a couple of them that I like a lot, which we can talk about more in a second here, I will not only be okay with it actually being clean. I think it will be quite a

powerful storytelling choice if that's what ends up happening or proving true. Yeah, let me say something really quickly and then I want to get to the rest of what I've cleared my schedule for. the rest of your monologue. But like, the question is, with only three more episodes, and in theory, a show that I think is going to end with an ugly Christmas, like ugly sweater Christmas party on the Barton Farm, like, totally, can we wrap our arms around that much of a swing?

Yes, because, again, I think that that's one of the through lines of Phase 4 and, frankly, one of the missions of Phase 4. Like, think about what we saw in Wanda, vision or think about, Loki is maybe the best example of this. Loki is not only a character who has been a villain at many points in the MCU, and I'm not saying Clint is a villain, but someone who has done bad things, right? Things to be deeply ashamed of. And specifically, it's coming off of the 2012 Battle of New York at the outset of Loki, right? And by the end of that show, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but

I'm just like, I care so deeply about what happens to this. Now, I've cared a lot about Loki heading into that show, so this, you know, the interest of full disclosure. But I think that these characters seeking to be introspective and to actually wrestle with the choices that they have made and the consequences of those choices in their own lives and in the wider world is something that can happen relatively. I mean, I was going to say relatively quickly, but I think, you know, like, that's like the length of, we've got the length of a movie still ahead of us and think of how much can happen

inside of a movie, right? So with Clint in particular, there's so much time spent already, and a lot of this is established that, like, it's not going to be a shock to us to learn that he did this. So the time to me is more about him and other people like Kate, who consider him, like, oh, you're the reason I decided to do all this in the first place, really interrogating what it means that he did and what the path forward is. Like, I don't think the out of is Clint did this and so he's not worth our time anymore. It's Clint and all these other characters are ultimately worth our time because they ask themselves these questions and allow us to think about these things as well. That's ultimately going to make them more interesting as characters.

No, I mean, definitely worth our time, but like can we watch him like Swig Eggnog while, you know, baby please come home for Christmas plays or something like that? Like, I don't know. But I mean, but maybe there's, but incongruities are one of the through lines of his story, right? So maybe it's like not a purely happy moment. Maybe it's still him trying to come to terms with the fact that the thing he wants is that peace and that sense of family in place. And in that moment there, he still has those, those echoes from the past. Oh, I think you guys, I will just say this. I think you guys were like a little higher on Loki than I was. I really liked Loki, but I felt, I felt some of that jangling. I know you did, but I felt, and I liked a lot of it.

I liked a lot of it. I think it's a, I, it's like up in the top half, of the Marvel TV shows, there's only been a few. That's a stupid ranking. But anyway, I did feel those swings and tone. They felt a little jangly to me in that show. And I feel like the tone of this show is a little bit more consistent and assured. So anyway, I mean, we'll see how it all tracks out. I have no reason to not have faith in a show that is giving me three episodes I've really enjoyed.

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. What do you think the cases or the clues are for, like, do you think that? is Clint and will it be Clint? You just keep talking about this now rather than saving it for Kingpin Corner, Theory Corner, coming later today where we'll hit on some other theories, but because we're, because we're talking about this now, like, what do you think?

Okay, when I get, like, really into a show, sometimes I wake myself up with, like, theories. It's a really broken brain part of me. And I, like, I woke myself up. Like, I stayed up late. You and I both did. I think both Jomey and Steve did as well, like stayed up late to watch the episode. Even though I don't have to anymore,

watch it like right at midnight. I did anyway. And then I woke myself up at like 6 a.m. being like, oh, something about Jack. You know, there's something about Jack. Yeah. That we've talked before about him being a red herring. I don't think he's like the real villain we should be chasing here.

Plenty people have noticed since that like the episode ends before Clint's really like, like turns to look at him. And he's also sort of like in the shadows. Yeah. So there's still plenty of room for Clint to open the next week's episode by turning to him and knowing him, you know? And so one thought I had was, well, what if Jack is actually like a good guy and he's deep undercover investigating Eleanor?

I've since walked away from this theory. But like he's deep undercover. He's working for some organization. Clint knows him. He's deep undercover investigating Eleanor. That's why he's being so weird all the time. And he's handing out monogram buttercotch to try to see who responds in a suspicious fashion. Yeah, just to agitate the risotto.

But then I realized, and I kind of liked that idea because I like the idea of Kate being so sure that he's the villain, but actually he's like, the reason he's being so cagey is he's a good guy undercover. And it would be a nice little like subversion twist on the comic. However, then I realized what I really want next episode. is for Clint and Kate to have a sword fight with Jack in the penthouse to kick off the episode that there's a reason there are swords planted all around that penthouse that our attention's been drawn to. There's a reason that it seemed unlikely that Kate would be able to defeat him on our own, but maybe Kate and Clint together can fight him and stuff like that. So I was like, okay, probably not a good guy undercover like investigating Eleanor.

But, you know, there's something, I feel like he and Clint will know each other. That's what I feel like is true. I mean, that would be fun. And obviously, especially with the comics history between those characters, you know, Jack teaching Clint so many of his skills back in the old circus days. Maybe that's our next opening origin story, just hanging out at the circus. That would be a fun few minutes. Maybe we'll get baby Clint at the circus, you know.

I would honestly love that. Did you think that the way Ronan was moving in the flashback looked like Clint? Like obviously this is one of the great opportunities that the Ronan costume affords. As we saw when Kate was wearing it, you know, people are just going to be like, that's Ronan without really knowing who is not only beneath the mask and the hood, but the costume. One of the reasons I ask is because obviously Clint is plenty athletic and acrobatic. And we see all of the flips and turns and dives as he's working the bow,

including in this episode. But there was something about, I will say there was something about like the flipping that just gave me like a swordsman circus vibe. Or was it Eleanor? I just, I love your passion for the Eleanor theories. It's wonderful. It would be a fun to echo if Eleanor were the Ronan,

and then like Kate puts the Ronan costume on. That would be wonderful. Do you know what I mean? Talk about passing the mantle. A nice little echo. There. You know, and I think we wouldn't be necessarily expecting, like, a woman under the hood. Right.

Like, all a taskmaster sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, I hear what you're saying, though. Very, very agile, very flippy, very, very live. No, no shade of my dude, Clint. Like, it's not that he's not agile.

But it was, I was going frame by frame to try to find any clues that I could. You know, despite everything I said a few minutes ago about how I do think story-wise it would really track if it were Clint. In addition to everything we just talked about, like, obviously just the history that he does have, like, as established by him, the history that he has with the tracksuits. You know, Clint says in episode two, when he's on the phone with his wife, for insurance, at least, until I clear things up with the old track suit friends. And Lars said, Jesus, not those idiots. Like, it's clear that there's meaningful enough history between Clint and the tracksuits for her to know about it, right? So for all of those reasons, I could see it.

being him. I do like the idea of Kingpin, and this is obviously like a very popular theory already. You know, we got a lot of versions of this as mailbag questions

of Kingpin using Ronan as like a cover to take out William because of how that would track with the comics canon. He pins it on Daredevil on the comics,

pinning it on Ronin here would fit broadly Jack is certainly skilled enough with the blade to have done what we saw there. And one of the things I like about the Jack theories right now is that even if that wasn't him in the flashback, also he was of course so drawn to the blade at the auction. Yeah, why didn't he want the sword?

Right, what if it was his? If it wasn't, could this go to a point in the future where because of the way that he covets this, if he puts on the suit, if it comes into his possession somehow, it ends with Maya killing him because she thinks that it's him. That might be a little twisted, but I could see it happening.

I have one more thing to throw out to you, though. Love it. Ready. What if it was Kazi? Yeah, because we don't see him. I was thinking about that, too. Not only do we not see him.

It is established in the conversation between Maya and Kazi that they go way back, right? And Maya asks, but first of all, he brings up Uncle right? I just hope Uncle won't find out. No, he wouldn't be happy, that fascinating exchange.

Does is he actually, despite his direct involvement in this entire Ronan-centric pursuit so far, is he in some way secretly invested in them not finding the answer here or misdirecting? Yeah, it seemed to me that like Uncle at the very least was not interested in Maya finding out the truth about Ronan. And so, right, that supports the idea that it could be someone other than Clint and that it could be a kingpin cover. up. I love job. The idea that it's Kasi. It's clear he worked for William, right?

And he wasn't there. Yeah. You know, she said, like, would you do this if, like, if I were my dad, implying that William was her boss and he was like, he always put the crew before us. So, like, I don't know. There's something about the way he talks about William that, like, makes me think that he wouldn't have done it. However, to talk about them going way back, we should, we should say that in the closing

credits, the closing credits identified one of the kids at the karate. the martial arts competition as Little Kazi. So, like, they did, you know, they've known each other since childhood. Which is why I think it would be so devastating in the Echo series if they're on the opposite side of something. They started small, but group.

There's the guy at the top. He'll do anything to grow the operation. I thought Maya was awesome. No, there's someone above Maya. Someone you don't want to mess with. While we're here before we move on, just talk about the kingpin of it all for a few more minutes? Like, do you think there's any ambiguity here?

No, no. This is Kingpin. Kingpin. It's obviously Kingpin. The big question is like, will we see him in episode four or will we have to wait for the finale to see him and will we see him all the way through the finale or will it just be a post-credit stinger? So like my heart says post-credit stinger. But I also thought that about Kang and then the whole episode was Kangtown on Logie.

So, you know, I say never underestimate how much kingpin they're going to put in this series. Like, he could show up for good next week if they wanted to, you know, and maybe that's why the person I was talking to was like, you're really going to like the last three. Maybe. I'm always here. It's not only kingpin. It's definitely Vincent Dinoffrio. Netflix is kingpin. 100%.

Right. 100%. That laugh is his lot. Like he let and chuckles. It's Dinoffrio. The suit. I mean, we only see like partial torso arm and hand, right? the hand pinching the pinching the cheek.

Clearly it looks like a kingpin in terms of, I mean, you know, these iconic suits, right, this wardrobe, the hand. The cuffling. You're right. The cuffling. The laugh was just like, oh my God, this is it. That's happening.

He's here. Like, we don't even, I mean, who knows? We could always be surprised, but it felt so definitive. It's like we don't even need to talk anymore about whether Kingpin will be in this show or come to the MCU. It happened.

He's here. The question is, is it going to be Netflix's Kingpin? Even though it's, you know, because we've, got, we've got, um, already in this world. We've got two Jay Jonah Jameson's played by the same actor. Do you know what I mean over in the Spider-Man touching the MCU, right?

So it could- Spider-Man comes out. The new Spider-Man comes out between episodes five and six of this show. And we think like maybe we might see another Netflix actor in that movie, you know, but like, so if it is Vincent Donovan. as Kingpin, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the exact same kingpin we saw on Netflix, is what I'll say, right? Like, there's a world in which that seems unnecessarily confusing, but it would also liberate them from trying to bring in all the continuity from Netflix, which maybe they

don't want to do. Like, it seems to me like Kevin Feigey, now that the Netflix shows were under the auspices of Jeff Loeb. Now that Marvel TV is under the auspices of Kevin Feig, it seems like he wants to raid the Netflix treasure chest for whatever gems he likes, but he's not going to be. going to take the whole chest because, you know, Iron Fist is also in that chest, right? So he's just going to take what he likes. And I mean, I can't blame him for going straight for DeNofrio's kingpin. That is like one of the shiniest rubies in that chest. And so, shiniest rubies sticking with the red

color-coded theory scheme there. I love it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But there's this rumor going around. And I was trying to source it because the Midnight boys were talking a lot about it. I've been trying to source it from what I can tell, it's only based off of one, like, really bad-looking concept art thing. But there's a rumor going around that this kingpin will be a much bigger kingpin, like comics, more comics accurate. If you haven't read the comics, more like into the spider versus leave Schreiber's kingpin, which is just like, um, inhumanly large, right? I hate that. And I don't want it. I just want let Dinafrio be Dinafrio is all I'd say about that. I am 100% with you. I completely agree. We're just, we're, we're, this is, we're, we're

having so much authentic fun talking about this that the roadmap of our outline has gone completely out the window and I'm here for it. This was something we were going to talk about later in the mailbag, but I think it's contextually relevant here. Like, do you think we both agree that's not only kingpin, it's Xenofrio's kingpin, that moment with the cheek pitching comes after William says, uncle. So then later, when we witness the exchange between Kazi and Maya about Uncle, and then pair that with the conversation between Clint and Kate about the leadership of this whole operation.

We get a couple nuggets there. Clint says, yeah, bad stuff. Kate says you care to elaborate. Not really. They started small but grew. There's a guy at the top. He'll do anything to grow the operation. And Kate says, I thought Maya was the boss.

Clint says, no, there's someone above. someone you don't want to mess with, then we get more Ronan-centric exchange. So my question is, do you think that that is definitively Kingpin? The Kingpin is the one atop the track suit organization here, or is there room for any other interpretation about who, uncle, could potentially be? Yeah, yeah. Like some people were saying, like, are we too quick to jump on the Adonofrio train. Could it be Tony Dalton is Jack Duquesne? Could it be Brian Darcy James as Derek Bishop? And I'm like, no. I mean, the hand is definitely, that's Donofrio's. I think the word I used was- But even if it is Kingpin, could there be another character who is like in control of the operation in some way?

Could these descriptions be about anyone but Kingpin? I think you know that if Clint hadn't said guy, I would be like, sure, Eleanor. But because he said guy, I'm going to go with Kingpin. Yeah, we get a he from, we get a he from from Kazi too. So, yeah, that's definitely true. I will say on the Elmer front, though, it did make me think of that Armand's line from the premiere. I should have known that this empire of yours would be built on a lie. like empire could, I do think it's, to be clear, I think this is Tenavrio, I think this is Kingpin,

I think Uncle is Kingpin, I think the person in charge of the tracksuits is Kingpin. I think something like the fact that we know from the comics canon, of course, Marvel updates comics canon all the time, but we know that William was an enforcer for Kingpin. we see that William is in the track suit mafia here. So it's just one more bit of evidence that there's a kingpin oversight of the track suit. here, right? I would like to now say a word that's very important to Marvel that I hate, which is the blip.

Let's talk about the blip for a second. So let's talk about some timeline. Let's talk about some timeline stuff for a second. Okay. Yeah. Let's do it. Rees Thomas, in an interview with us, said two years, like two years. And then he has since gone on Twitter and clarified that originally they planned to set this

two years after end game. It's supposed to be 2025. But they subsequently changed their mind. It's only one year after endgame. And I was watching the great Eric Voss's new rock stars breakdown. He pointed out that there was a New Year's 20-25 poster in some of the set photos that leaked out that they either digitally moved or whatever put a basket in front of the five. Okay. So it's 2020 to like, you know, like that's evidence that it was supposed to be set in 2025.

They decided to move it to 2024 instead. doing the math on Kate's age, she was around for the blip. She and Clint are both people who lived through the blip. But we don't know what was going on. Like, what was Kingpin snapped? Or was he not?

And if he was snapped, did Eleanor slide into the top position during the snap and then he's back? And now she has to reckon with the boss's back. Like, what do I do now? You know, like, you know, vacuums of power and the blip. I don't know.

Oh, man. This is a lot to untangle in three episodes, so I'm not sure that they're going to get into all that. But also, I mean, and if we want to go with Netflix continuity, Kingpin was in jail for a while. So, like, possibly Eleanor, like, slid into a power position then. You know, so there's a lot of different options, I think. One of the helpful things with the Netflix continuity is that I think the multiverse

and what's about to happen in Spider-Man allows them to just do whatever they want with any of these characters if they bring them in. Like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the old, and this gets to where you're saying about timeline of like what the, what the relative points of time of the multiverse and this show are. That could be something we learned in the next couple weeks. But yeah, that's interesting. It's funny that you mentioned the blip because one of the things I was thinking about with

Kingpin, it, favorite little Tony, Tony comics nuggets is that damage control, which of course we have in the MCU, right? It was a joint Tony Wilson Fisk venture, which is just iconic Tony Stark shit. And I wonder if, because we got a mailbag question, let me find it, we'll have finished the entire mailbag before we get to the mailbag the way we're going today. We got a question from T.J.

My money is on Fisk having purchased Avengers Tower. Who do the two of you think it was? I thought this was fascinating. and the Fisk-Toney damage control tie, like I think lends credence to an idea like that. But then you pair that with something like the Kazimae moment about Uncle wanting them to keep a low profile, and it's like, is buying Avengers Tower a low-profile thing to do?

I don't know. Maybe if you've got enough shell companies or whatever, like, Sloan Limited is, right? So many different threads here already. But I did find myself wondering if during the blip, Fisk could have been involved with damage control in a way that would have been, you know, oriented around really trying to capitalize on the carnage if he hadn't snapped, perhaps. So many possibilities.

Oh, my God. The blipping is interesting also thematically beyond just like trying to untangle the timeline because just the idea that Clint and Kate both like live through the blip and all the things that that entailed. You know, New York seems to be back to like complete normal post post. blip quickly, more quickly than it should. Like, Falcon of the Winter Soldier lays out... The Mets are back, folks. Yeah, Falcum of the Winter Soldier lays out this whole idea that, like, recovering from

the blip is going to be really complicated. We can't just put the borders back up. All these people are unhoused, like, all this sort of stuff. And New York is just like, would you like to see a musical? Like, the Christmas tree at Rockefeller's, like, Plaza is amazing. You know, like, what is going on there? Maybe that's why timeline-wise. they wanted to set it two years later so that like everything could have been reconstructed, you know, so.

Interesting. You know, speaking of Clint being alive during the blip and everything he did as Ronan, like, what did you think of Clint claiming to Maya and Kazi that Black Widow had killed Ronan? I really liked that. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. You know? That was wonderful.

How did you feel about that in that scene in general, that, that was. first moment between Maya and Clint, the way that she sees his hearing aid, the exchange that they have about that. Yeah, that's funny. You know, I tried to ask Reese about that. And he was like, will they interact? Yes. You know what I was just like, okay. But like, I thought it was, I thought it was so well done. This idea that she like unties his hand so that he could communicate if he needs to the fact that like, and I, and this is like a, I think this is an ongoing movement in certain communities where they're like, you know, the idea of a hearing aid is to make it so, you know, it comes from a time when, like, you would talk about this as a disability. And I think there's an increasing movement to, like, not consider differences of a disability necessarily.

And so this idea of echo, I don't know if you, have you seen the film Coda that came out this year? No. It was at Sundance or maybe it was on Sundance two years ago. You would love it. You would absolutely, like, cry all the tears out of your face. Absolutely love it. Koda is a child of death adults. But a lot of it is about this idea of like, why do I have to change who I am to fit into your world?

Why aren't you making any accommodations for me? Why aren't you learning sign language? Why aren't you doing this? Like, all this sort of stuff. And so I liked, I really liked echoes stomping on his hearing aid. I thought that was a really, really interesting moment. And again, just part of this, like, big action sequence that has so many character beats to it. I didn't feel like there was like a move.

wasted in that in that action sequence, which was incredibly well done. But I loved, I loved that. I don't know. What did you think? Yeah, I agreed both in terms of the moment between Maya and Clint, but also, you know, what you were just saying, it makes me think again of the, the poignancy of the opening sequence with William and Maya and the way that he talks to her about her strength, right? When she says, I thought I was going to go to school. school with kids like me, what's his reply? It's impossible. See, you're one of a kind. I'm getting choked up now. And that moment where she asks her father if she'll have to stop signing and he says, no, you have to learn to jump between two worlds. How? Just by watching. And that's like

such an incredible moment for so many reasons. I mean that just by watching, you know, foreshadows powers the ability to observe and match and mirror anything that an opponent can do. A lot of people on Yield Internet this week have been talking about not only that two worlds line, but the recurring comments about, in conversation about dragons in this episode. And I also thought the moment where they're doing like the hand shadows on the wall, William and Maya, to me it looked like a hawk and a dragon. Did it look like that to you? Yeah, 100%.

It's just wonderful. Do you think what I was starting to say about a big topic on Twitter and the internet this week is whether these comments about two worlds, dragons, because they of course make us think of Shang-chi. given the role of both of those things in that film. Do you think that there's going to be any actual plot connection to the story of Shang Chi? Or was this all thematic as a metaphor? Again, we only have three episodes.

So I'm a little hesitant to think about all the things that we would want to cram in there. Though, if you think about like the freaking Wanda Vision, end of Wanda vision, how they like pivoted to like three different movies at the end there. But I hated that about WandaVision. I love WandaVision, but I hated that. Those episodes also got a lot longer at the end than the prior Wanda Vision once had been, right? Yeah. So maybe, but I think if there's something there, I would like them to save that for the Echo Series. I'm saying, like, I don't hate there being a connection there, but I think saving that for the Echo Series would be much more incredible.

Can I ask you, I'm going to go way off book here. You mentioned Sloan Limited, right? And you have some theories about that. But can I just do a dramatic reading for you for a moment? Please. I love dramatic readings. Again, my brain is kind of cooked from how much I've watched, like how and how much I've watched television of the past several years.

And for my Westworld days, I got really into like putting, popping everything into the old anagram on Scramble because on Westworld, they were constantly hiding clues in anagrams. So I tried to anagram. I'm already in on this. I already love this. It's incredible. Oh.

Oh my God. I'm going to read to you the results. Okay. Medallion It's. Stallion Demi. Ooh. Manolta Sidal. Edition small.

Modest Lillian. Medallion sit. Metalist Lion. Manulta slide ailment. Solid. Dismantle oil. metalist lion. They did that one twice.

No, medalist loin. Dismantle oil. Wow. Dismantle oil. Limited salon. Listed Milano. Stallion dime. Dominate sill.

Limited Sloan. Oh, that's just, you just flip the words, guys. Molest, molest inlaid. Anyway, I don't think there are any results here. I just wanted to bring you all into the world of anagrams and the things I do for this show. I am in awe of you as always. No, no, no.

I love it. Sifting for clues anywhere. and everywhere. I like all of the stallion ones, you know, after we got the pony riding and the track suits really mocking. You know, oh, Hawkeye. I think dismantle oil,

dismantle oil because they were in an auto body shop. I don't know. Anyway. Questions upon questions upon questions. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in.

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which includes gas, bloating, rumbling and abdominal discomfort. I buy Imagine Dragon's tickets for my girlfriend as like early Christmas gift. That's so sweet. Then we had a fight, you know what she said? She said that tickets were gift. So she wants to bring her sister. I mean, look on the bright side, you don't have to go see Imagine Dragons. I love Imagine Dragons. How are you feeling about your track suit, bros, at this point? What an episode for them?

Best use of them yet. I think they're really getting the tone of them right in this episode in a way that I wasn't, like, I think they were leaning a little too hard on the menace for me in the first two. And, like, you need to have the menace plus, like, absolute bumbling comedy. So imagine Dragonsboro. Like, I think that actor's name is, I think it's Peter Ademchick. Like, great stuff. Like, the whole fight and how absurd the fight was, like, throwing toys, all that stuff.

Like, that's the, you know, you know, we're looking from wet bandits level of antics here from the tracksuit mafia. Dandits, absolutely. Reese Thomas did tell us that Home Alone, too, was an inspiration for this show. You could feel a lot in this episode. Yeah, I did, of course, notice that in the stuffed animal aisle had some lovely golden retriever action in the shot there. You know, pizza dog is everywhere. Can you anything past you, Mal? Love it.

I want to shout out. Joanna's like, I'm looking for anagrams and clues and the code names on computer files that might tell us how this show ultimately ends. And I'm like, did you see the dog, the stuffed animal in the aisle? Do you see the dog, bro? Did you see the dog, bro? Yeah, I thought it. Oh, God. Should we talk about the car chase?

I want to talk about the stunts in this episode. Do it. I want to shout out. I want to shout out Heidi Moneymaker, who is the stunt coordinator in the show. She's longtime Scarlett Johansson stunt double. She invented my favorite Marvel move, which is called The Widow Throw, which is when Nat wraps her arms around someone's neck and then throws them down to the ground, the best. Favorite Marvel move?

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. The Widow Throw. I mean, it's got such a cool. name too. Come on. It's great. So to watch Heidi graduate from stunt double to stunt coordinator on this is really cool. Her sister, Renee Moneymaker, is an incredible stunt double as well. She's doubling Haley in this. And then Caitlin DeShell was a stunt double for a Lachua Cox who plays Maya.

And I thought she, like, when that fight starts and she starts leaping and twirling through the air, I got so excited. I thought it was, I thought it looked incredible. But all of that was really cool. And then I found out actually subsequently that Heidi Moneymaker was actually also the second unit director for some of the reshoots and pickups. So like I like that Marvel does this where they like grow people in their family and give them more and more opportunities. And I think Heidi's doing the stunts on Guardians 3 as well. But I think I thought the stunts in this episode were incredible. I thought that whole fight with Clint and Kazi and Kate and Echo and all the bros.

Causey got his ass kicked so many times. So many elbows to the chest. She was just like, I'm gonna, you know. So when my guy was, you know, talking about uncle at the end. And hey, shouldn't we keep it more like a lower profile. And hey, none of these idiots have learned ASL. I was like, Kazi belongs in concussion protocol. After both the KB toys, the ass kicking that he took from Kate and Clint and then the multiple trick arrows.

that he was on the receiving end of during the car chase. He got the jankiest looking arrow, which is the putty arrow. I will say the digital effects on that putty. Like he, with the pin, the pin arrow pinning his, the bed of his truck there, that did not look like it felt good. You want to talk about the comics influence for this chase here? I know that this is a beloved stretch of the comic. I think this is my favorite issue.

I know what your favorite issue of the comic is, but I think this is my favorite issue. And I just want to premise it really quickly. As we've mentioned before, Clinton in the comics is a bachelor and, you know, hapless guy living in the city. And the whole premise of the comics is like, what does Clint do in his off days? What is an, like, so the premise of this issue is Clint needs to go get some scotch tape so he can put labels on his air trick arrows so that he knows what they are in, in order to use them, on the knocks of his arrows as he puts. it. And he can't find any scotch tape and instead he runs into a lady. Yes, he does. Has an encounter. Sure does. Ends with maybe the best frame in all of the Hawkeye comic, which is Clint leaping bare-ass

naked through the air with the old Hawkeye suit. Strategically placed over him. And then the car chase ensues. I see your fig leaf and I raise you. A purple-clad superhero. And then they get in the car and they get in the car and they, They have there's a car chase in that version, Kate's driving Clint's shooting and he's using the trick arrows. And there's this cool concept. And he keeps saying sex instead of sec because he just had sex. Can't stop thinking about it.

Clint Barton. You get a close up on all the arrows and then you get to see how they are used. And so they like they did the trick arrow card chase. It's like, it's class. It's incredible. We had seen some of those footage on the Disney Investor Day trailer that they released. but it didn't take the thrill out of it for me. I just, I had such a great time and just,

and sort of like watching them work together, like Clint not being able to hear, but them having the same idea at the same time, like we should turn the car around. Shouts to my guy Clint Barton for his stunt driving, for driving backwards for a very long time. Like, what a great team. I loved it.

I was thrilled by it. Which of their trick arrows that they used in this sequence was your favorite? And do you think that Clint Barton has ever used the plunger arrow to clear up a toilet clock. It's not big enough. Maybe a sink. Maybe a sink. Maybe he uses the PIM arrow to make it bigger.

Oh, okay. And then uses it for whatever necessary household task awaits. That's a very big toilet then. There's no in between. We need a medium-sized plunger. I think it has to be. I don't even know what you would call it. The one that, like, reached out and grabbed all the trees.

That one. Yeah. Yeah. That was really fun. Snare one, the multi-snare. I don't know. That was a great one. How about you?

I think my favorite's the Pim Arrow. For so many reasons. You know, it makes me think of of Ant Man sitting on a Hawkeye Arrow tip in the comics and the MCU and flying to his target. I think it's really cool to see the way that the tech that we're familiar with

from the prior installments manifest inside of what feels like a very isolated moment in Clint's life. And then, of course, I like the possibilities that it presents for the future. Like, does he have a pymarrow that makes things smaller? Could that come into play at any point? So that was probably, probably my favorite. I don't want anything to do at the acid arrow.

That just seems like it could end up, like, accidentally turning into a scene from breaking bed in a hurry, you know? Like whose body are we melting in the bathtub? Goop in the tube. Yeah, in the tub, sorry. Yeah, no, so it's interesting that you mentioned the pymero because there have been so many Ant-Man, there's been an Ant-Man reference in every single episode so far, right?

Ant-Man in the musical, Ant-Man in costume on the street, the Pem Arrow. Reese Thomas has said that he wanted it to put Scott Lang in the series, but he couldn't get him. So I don't know, I don't know if, like, he was, they were told to put a bunch of Ant-Man in here because Quantum Man is coming, or if there's something else, like, why, why is Ant-Man all over this show? I don't know.

Some questions. Interesting. Got a noodle on that. Yeah. Yeah. Noodle on it. Noodle on it. Wait, can I zoom back really quickly to the warehouse fight to say something, the KB Toys fight to say something I didn't before?

You would be a big KB Toys kid? I think it's an East Coast thing. I think it is. I could be wrong. Right. You're a West Coast kid. Of course. I think it's a East.

I like, we had toys R. We didn't have KB Toys. What was your favorite store to go into when you were a kid? Did you like the imaginarium? No, don't ask me this. Oh, my God, the Imaginarium was so cool. I forgot about it. I loved that.

Oh, that was really fun. That's a good answer. I'm going to do that over my actual answer. Now I want to know what your actual answer on. My actual answer is the bookstore. What a, what a, like, shove me in a locker. It was a bookstore. No.

The, uh. That's beautiful. The, um, the thing I want to say about the warehouse fight that I didn't say before is, you know, And to that point about not thinking about Maya's differences as disabilities, I really love that it, like, early in the fight, Clint takes a swing at her leg to try to knock her down and he hits her prosthetic. And she just kind of like smiles at him and keeps going. And then she kicks him in the head with her prosthetic. And again, that to me is like, this is an advantage, not a disadvantage. And wrapping that organically into the fight, I just thought.

And it's like a sort of subtle moment because if you're not paying that close attention, maybe you miss it because like she's wearing pants and stuff like that. But like it's a cool moment, I think, of that fight. I agree. And to go back to how the conversation between William and Maya about dragons in these two worlds plays as embracing who you are and discovering your strength, you know, when Maya asks her father, what if they learned to come into our world? His reply is, well, that would make them stronger. And like this feels like. the realization of that in so many ways.

What a great episode of TV. Walk the dog. You're not wrong. He's been cooped up all day. I'm quite sure how long a dog can. By yourself one of the world's greatest archers. My God, you really think so? I won't lie.

I wasn't sure how you doing. I just walk the dog. What other Clint and Kate things should we talk about here? We covered a lot of this as we've gone, But there's more. I mean, there's the incredible subway moment that I know you loved. I did. Like when they're talking cross-purposes because he can't hear her.

And they both have, again, they both have the same idea that they need to walk lucky. But in the midst of that, he tells her that she was right to call herself one of the best archers in the world. I mean, what a thing to hear from your hero. And then the way that Haley played her reaction to that, I mean, her little face. It was just a beautiful moment. That was just quick. And then, like, was, oh, you know, was not lingered on. It was just, like, fast and done, and we move on to the next thing.

I just, I loved it. Sorry. Also, I just need to zoom back to the end of the car chase really quickly to point out that Ivan says, uh, Suka, which is bitch in Russian, uh, which you could not get away with on Disney Plus in English. But if it's in Russian, you can say it, I guess. So, um, I lived with, I lived with the Ukrainians. So I know all the sweat words.

And I was like, whoa, they put, they put bitch in here. Okay. Anyway. Ivan. Very tough hang. I have been very tough hang. Very tough hang. He's great.

He's obviously very entertaining. I know you also loved, as did I, the straight pull from the comics, spoiled rotten. She's like nine years old and spoiled rotten, right out of the comics. Loved it. That's one of the things that was so cool about this episode because you have that really, like, potent moment that you just highlighted on the subway, right? But there are so many barbs exchanged between Clint and Kate in this episode as well. One of my favorite consistent things about Kate is what a terrible artist she is. She just keeps coming up. The doodle is so good. Branding issues, man. Please let her draw on every

episode. Okay, so we have to talk about the phone call. The phone call is a byproduct of the smashing the hearing aid leads to this scenario where we can involve Kate in this phone call. I cried the first time I watched it, and I cried the second and third times I watched it. And again, Renner's Clint Barton has historically not been a character that a lot of people care about. And so giving him this scene, I thought Renner was incredible in this scene. I thought Haley was incredible in this scene. I thought it was beautifully well done. I watch everything with the captions on, so, like, I could see what Nate was saying on the other side of the line.

but I just thought it was, I thought it was beautifully, beautifully done. Shout out to Kate being a very fast writer with beautiful penmanship. Yeah, remarkable penmanship, I have to say. Yeah, I just loved this scene so much, heart-wrenching and so beautiful. I think that it is,

it really highlights and speaks to how this show has taken the long-running critique you know, since Ultron, of giving Clint a family and how that changed, you know, the expectations around his character from the comics arc, and made it a strength, made it a thing that we are so invested in. And, you know, one of the, one of the observations that you often make that I thought of here is that the MCU at its best adjusts, right, and figures out how to take something that wasn't working and try to make sure that it does. I think that that felt really palpable in this sequence. And I also was really struck by, you know, I agree with you about the

performances. I mean, the facial expressions on both Clint and Kate in the scene, just gutting. The shiny eyes. Eyes filled with tears. And that's the thing. Like, I was really struck by how much of himself Clint was showing to Kate here, like was letting her see. And then from her perspective, and, you know, these most effective scenes are going to give us something from every point of view in every character perspective. Like, it's an insight into the life of her hero, right? It also, I mean, she mentions her father in this episode. We've been talking about the Derek Bishop theories, but of course it's reasonable to assume that she's thinking about her own father here, right, when she's watching this play out. And it's a glimpse of that, that price, that toll that he

tells her this kind of work and this kind of choice has, you know, this distance that he has the most important relationships in his life. Like it was just, man, it was really, really heart-wrenching. I was wondering if you thought, like, when this is not during the phone call, this is in the diner sequence, but when Clint tells Kate that he's not a role model, and she tries to convince him that he is, right? And she's talking about the present day, like the decision that he made to stay and help a stranger. I was expecting her to share her origin story, basically, and say, like, let me tell you

about this time I saw you and what the impact that had on my life. Like, when do you think they will have that moment? And then, I guess the related question is, when will Kate learn that Clint is Ronan? Because she had that moment in this episode where when she's sketching out the costume, she says, what if it was all black with a mask, maybe a hood, you know, talking about the like, you can't say who Ronan is because it's someone close to you, isn't it? I couldn't really read Haley's performance in that moment, it almost seemed to me like she knew he was Ronan. It's your

job to keep their secret, was what she said. Yeah, I think it could play as she's basically, you know, alluding to that realization. I get it. You're Ronin. I can't say it, wink, wink. I think that if she doesn't, if she hasn't pieced it together yet, like it's reasonable to assume she will

at the start of the next episode, because if Clint starts battling Jack with swords, she's going to realize very quickly that, oh, I mean, maybe she's maybe she's saving that that trick arrow of you made me who I am for for you know when we really needed an episode five or six you know what I mean but I think it's probably coming I want to I want to echo what you know this idea of of her thinking about him and thinking about her dad I think I I can't remember who I asked if it was Reese or fraction um about this idea of Kate sort of

sliding into the Lila role for for him and I got push it must have been recent I got a little pushback and he was like more like partners than like father-daughter. And so then it made me, it's forced me to start thinking about this idea that like Clint lost Nat, who was his like partner in so many ways. And so this idea of getting to do this like car chase or the warehouse fight with this like really competent fighter. And he's like, who's think, who's all in the same wavelength as like, you know, can do the shorthand with him. Like he gets his partner back. And so I think it makes it easier for him to, slip into a spot where he's revealing that much to her because like I think he is sort of putting her in a

natural for himself and I find that very emotional. It's heavy. I'm with you. Like, and I think, you know, those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Like, you know, there can be this parental aspect to their exchange. But I, you know, certainly the way that like, again, trust is discussed, the way that Kate says partner. I had the, I had the same thought, like, with the way that Clint lets Kate see this version of him. Like, if you think back to Ultron in the moment where the Avengers show up at the farm and realize Clint has a family, it's like Nat knew everything about that. She has relationships with his family, right? Like, but nobody else knew.

I mean, Fury, obviously. But, like, you know, the other, Thor didn't know. You know, Tony didn't know. Cap didn't know. And so this is this, like, now, obviously, he's, like, at the theater with his family. He's having dinner with his family. It's a different moment in time. But even so, like this thing that is precious to him to show somebody what that means to him is exceedingly rare for Clint.

I mean, that's why I think, I think because almost because of the look on Haley Stainfield's face when Nate mentions the like when they mentioned the ugly Christmas sweater party that I'm like, oh, the show has to end. Like, Kate, because her mom is the villain and she's kind of like want to have nothing to do with her mom for Christmas. at the Barton Farm. And lucky also, maybe in a Christmas sweater, would that make you really happy? Lucky and Kate at the Barton Christmas. Yes, it won't make me happy, though I want him to be comfortable. So if he's uncomfortable in the sweater, I don't want him wearing it. No, he'll have the best time and it won't be scratchy at all.

But, you know, again, that's a Nat thing. Like bring her to the farm. Only Nat got to do that. And now Kate gets to do it. So I think it could be really lovely. Speaking of Pizza the Dog, how did you feel about the naming scene? I'm still waiting for them to name him Lucky, you know, and for that to port over, I assume it will. I obviously enjoyed that exchange immensely between Kate and Lucky the way that he is like very, you know, lukewarm on, you know, the Seizers and Dogfather.

which is honestly iconic. But the way that he responds to Pizza Dog, you know, he smiles. I tweeted this, by the way, but speaking of Lucky smiling that moment when they're walking through the park and Gates says, you know, that's why you should never live a life of organized crime. And he just turns back and says that expression. He just has the sweetest face. So I'm glad that he's enjoying the Pizza Dog moniker. And as always, I just really hope that he's getting enough exercise and love and care and

water and real nutrition. I worry about him. I just want him to be okay. It's pizza and it's bacon. And it's not great. It's not great. All right. Speaking of delicious snacks, should we should we snack on some Easter eggs? We've mentioned a bunch of these. Yeah, what was your favorite in the episode? Maybe that's a fun way to do it since we've talked about so many of them already, or what were a couple of your favorites. I love the return of the USB arrow, which we've seen both the, like, it's, the way it's used in the, in the Hawkeye comic is really funny because Kate's like a USB arrow, what the hell do I need that for? And then she uses it later, right? But we've also seen it in the MCU we saw it and what if, I'm a fan. And the way it just bounces

off Ivan. Just like cracks me up. Anyway. There's Helic carrier action. Great stuff. Yeah. Ivan moment was hysterical. How about you? I think probably the bloody handprint, you know, with William and Echo and, oh, boy. I mean, it was just such a sad scene, but, you know, that is a moment from the comics, William reaching out as he's dying and leaving that bloody handprint on Echo. And then that will be something that she, you know, she begins to paint a handprint on her face.

Moving forward, this like reminder of him. So it was, it was really, it was really cool to see that. And I just want to shout out Echo's Maya's jacket, which had like not only her father's tattoo, the son tattoo on his neck, stitched on to the bird. rest, but also these really subtle track suit stripes on her sleeve. I was like, this is an incredible jacket. I love this. You know, track suits with stripes, I'm just, I said this before, I'll say it again.

I am just waiting for Adidas to come through here with some official merch. Let's go. Are they busy doing Squid Game tracksuits? I think that, oh, something that, I mean, I don't know, I don't want to bring the room down, but like, I don't know if you know this, that Alaka Cox, um, Her dad in real life passed away like one day before this episode premiered. But I was told that he got a chance to see the episode before he passed away. But like, can you imagine?

Like Alacua has not done anything before this show. This is her like premiere, this big moment, her big episode. And like she has to hold this other thing at the same time. It's a lot for someone to go through. So I'm sorry. Oh, let me brighten. Let me pivot and brighten. I'm so sorry. To mention, I don't think we mentioned earlier that the little girl playing baby, Maya, is Alawa's real life cousin, Darnal Bissaw. So that's why she looks so much like her. So some beautiful family moments here. Yeah. Theory time? I'm sorry, Mal. I broke you. But let's come back with, let's paste it all back together with some theories. Kingpin corner. Again, we've talked about a lot of these theories already. What haven't we hit on that you want to mention here on Kim thing? We got to talk about Eleanor.

Okay. Obviously. My obsession. Oh, my God. My one true love, Vera Farminga. Okay. So we got this note from the Facebook group from Sean. Sean says, I've watched all three at least twice.

I don't think Eleanor is a villain for one reason. She's using an iPhone. And this is a reported on fact that Apple does not like villains. to use iPhones. So you can track twists. This comes from a Ryan Johnson interview, right? With very fair about Knives Out and how Chris Evans wasn't allowed to have an iPhone

because he's the killer. Spoilers for Knives Out. Sorry, guys. Sorry. We do issue a very broad spoiler warning at the top of the show. But not for Knives Out. Today we're talking about pop culture.

Every scene with caution. You and I poured over screenshots of this phone that Eleanor uses in episode one. Frame by frame, brightening, zooming in. You very astutely, I think, pointed out that this looks like a Google pixel, which I, camera lens, which I had no idea what that looked like. And then I googled it. And I said, by gum, it does look like it might be a Google pixel phone. But I also think, I do also, I think you, like at first I was like, oh, that looks like

the iPhone camera lens because of the square. But the dots in a different place. Right, the placement and there's something about the squareness of the phone, but then that didn't seem iPhone-y, even though the camera quadrant did. But then I was like, maybe it's just a case. So it looks different. I don't know. I scanned back through everything to try to find another shot of this phone.

Because you see it in Eleanor's hand when she comes out of the gala and is trying to get in touch with Kate. I asked someone close to the production about this. This is incredible. And they did not have a definitive answer for me, but what they did say is, I'm pretty sure Haley's smartphone wasn't an iPhone. And typically it's all or nothing on a show like this. So likely it's not an iPhone than Eleanor has because usually they give everyone an Apple product. For villainy. Villany.

Obviously. She's not even in this episode, but I suspect her at every turn. There's red. On the color theory watch, there's red details of the dojo, red light. bathing the auto body shop as Ron and tears through the track suits. So like that red, that red color watch were still on. And then I got to circle back to you shot me down on this last week, which was the Kazi Kate, the Kazi Kate flirtation.

I'm glad you're bringing this up because I didn't shoot you down. I just thought that in the comics, their flirtation comes before she knows who Kazi is, right? So it's like, how are they going to do that now when they're initial in her actions have been quite complex, though you were obviously right that there's something here. Because Kate calls him hot. And they have that look, that little look in the... She says, you pick up any tension between Maya and the hot guy, or was it just me? So she's like, is that guy single? Can I date him? Is that a lot? By the way, speaking of that tension, I was wondering, you know, what the exact nature of the relationship between Kazi and Maya was,

but I thought the tension manifested in another way, too. Like that very fraught moment where Maya reminds Kazi who's in charge and he seems to carry some resentment, even though throughout the bulk of the episode to that point, they seem like strong partners. Yeah, just like Tony Danza. She's like, who's the boss here? It's me.

Bada me. Yeah, but I love that he signs, you know, he's the only one who, like, communicates with her in that way. I don't know. I really like Fafri is doing a great job with like very little room to run here. So, Kazi Kate, you think it's going to happen or you actively ship it? Okay, listen. This is where I need clarity.

You and I both have a bad track record with rooting for villainous dudes. I love a redemption arc. So here's what we do know. Maya instructed Kazi to find out about Clinton Barton. So I think Kazi's going to... I wonder if he's going to set himself up. And Clint, by the way, does the same

when Kate and Clint go to Eleanor's penhouse, a hysterical moment when Clint's like, this is a home? Follow up question. Follow a question. How does Kate know how to spell causey's very intricate last name. I was curious about that as well.

But Clint is like, look up Kazi. And earlier was like, his name's Kazi. So they're focused on each other for sure. So it's interesting. But the whole last name. Anyway, what if Kazi sets himself up as a honeypot to sort of like, you know, get information from Kate? What if he goes to flirt with Kate to get information is sort of how I see it banning out? What do you think is up with Sloan Limited here in Kingpin Corner Theory Corner?

Oh, you hit me with your. made you listen to a series of useless anagrams, so you hit me with your much more comic adjacent theories. I don't know, and I don't have really a strong theory, but I, like, I think probably everyone else who watched the episode just immediately started Googling, like,

Sloan's in Marvel, you know, like, any, and like, I don't think Sloan Limited is an existing thing, but who are characters named Sloan who could, in any way, maybe, like, logically connect to this plot? And, you know, there are a few candidates like, and I think, you know, this is floating out there in a lot of different places. But like, Willie Sloan, who is a kingpin tie and Jason Sloan who has a Matt Murdoch law firm tie, given, you know, the red color scheme and the daredevil canon of it all. Like, maybe there's going to be something there.

But I don't know, like, how many new characters are we going to meet in the back half of the season? Like, is there even room for anything like that? or is it just meant to intrigue us. I think whether there's a connection to any character or comics canon in that way. Like, I was wondering if Sloan Limited could be, to go back to the Eleanor well for a minute here, if Sloan could be this empire that Armand alluded to, like this shadow operation for Eleanor, could she be using, because Kate mentions to Clint, like, oh, I tell you about my failing company, Bishop Security, where we have tons of files and access to a robust criminal database and can find

to anyone at any point. Right. By just putting your phone number into a database, we can track you. So even if Eleanor, like, oh, God, I don't know, because Kazi is obviously in the track suit. So it's maybe all, it is all connected, perhaps. But what if Sloan Limited is Eleanor's kind of shadow operation where she is using the information at her disposal to run some sort of syndicate, either one that is directly connected to Kingpin and what's happening?

with the track suits or perhaps a competing one. Yeah, I mean, if you think of like the in the comics run, like that, you know, that, you know, gathering the families at the table moment and like everyone's totally willing to let the tracksuits go, you know, potentially take care of their Avengers problem, but potentially get wiped off the map off the map and who would care. Like the idea of these different factions that have some sort of tie coming together in a more formal way is, you know, always on the table, I think. So it's a long way of saying I have absolutely no idea what's unlimited it is.

But I obviously like when you get a shot of a computer screen, you're meant to be paying attention to what's there. I was trying so hard to read like what was in the document and the left side of the screen and what the folder, what the folder names were for the folders on the desktop. But a lot of blurry out of focus font. Any other theories you want to hit on that we haven't mentioned yet either here on Kigipin Corner or earlier today? I don't think so. I think we did it. Okay. It's mailback time. And of course, Lord of the Memes, Jomi Adanan is joining us today for the mailbag. We've hit a lot of the mailback questions already, Jomey. But we've got a few more good ones. We got so many great questions this week.

Oh, we got some great ones. Our first question comes from Jeff. Which Avengers compound item would you buy at a top secret illegal underground auction? Are you going to limit yourself to something that you know definitively was at the compound or at the tower at some point? like what was on Happy's cargo plane and Spider-Man Homecoming or what might have been at the compound later. No. Because was that watch in the inventory, whatever the hell it is? No. So I'm going to do what I want. I want to do what I want. I would go with, I got to hope that Nat's little like shock disk things that she would throw at people and drop them. I don't know what they're called. Do you know what their technical term is? Are you talking about the widow's bite? Or are you talking about something else? I'm talking about the widow. bite. This is why I podcast with you, Mallory Rubin. Yes. The widow's bite. Give me the widow throw. The widow's bite. Yes. Yes. Those things. I'm going to go with the

Cap Shield prototype that Happy Mentions is actually on that plane just because I love the idea of having a prototype that Tony was working on for Steve. That just, that hits me in so many different ways. It would also be really fun to have the Hulkbuster armor, but, you know, takes up a lot of space, not super practical. Kind of bulky. Kind of bulky. It's real big, you know, I don't know how you'll put that in your car. Jome, Joe. Jome, what would you grab?

Well, Jeff says Thor's Magic Belt, which I think is a great choice. But honestly, if in all honesty, for me, it probably have to be Iron Man's watch because it's probably the watch in Civil War that can turn it to a gauntlet. Yeah. And I'm all about it. You know what I'm saying?

Nice style on the wrist, but somebody stepped the wrong way to me, but like, watch out. You know what I'm saying? It's like that's number one for me. Plus, you know, I love Iron Man. So, you know. All right. Our second question comes from Karen. And she wants to know, if you could arm the Hawkeyes with your own selection,

especially arrows, what would you choose? I don't have enough to fill a quiver, but I have one very, like, big arrow that did not make its way into the show. that I as a comic fan was disappointed by, which is the boomerang arrow. Comes back. Always comes back. That's a great one. Yeah.

So, got to be boomerang arrow. Oh, I love it. That's a really good pick. Hmm. I initially misread this question and thought it was asking if we could just have specialty arrows, which would we want? And so I was just thinking of like arrows that would make my life easier. Like, what's the arrow equivalent of being able to perform like Akio and just summon

things to myself, you know, like an arrow? that's a boobberang arrow. That's, you know, but like with more, you know, with more precision, like, you know, Clint's always guzzling coffee in the comics. I need an arrow to bring me a cup of coffee. Or, you know, we see the way the PIM arrow, when they, you know, that great moment where they're both working in harmony and the regular arrow hits the PIM arrow and it becomes big. What if there was an arrow that became large, but you could like fly on, like ride? like a rocket arrow, you know? But like you don't have to become small like Ant Man.

Like you're your normal size and it can become like a ship. I'm sorry. I have some logistical questions. How high are we going? Like are we going? Do you need a helmet? Are we going up into the atmosphere? Well, I'm a team player.

So I'm already wearing the helmet that Kate has sketched out for me at this point. You know, I'm not resisting like claim. And what's your, but what's your goal? Is it like cross country travel or is it like beating out? traffic. Like, what do you want to achieve with this? Both of those questions make me realize that this isn't super practical for someone who, you know, never leaves her home. Like, I don't really honestly don't know what I'd use for. I was thinking of like, okay, when people say, what superpowers would you want? Like, how could I port some of this over? You know, the idea of

being able to fly. How could I make the arrow work as a tool for me? Like, what about an arrow that makes you invisible, but you use it on yourself? Just very, like, a gentle tap. Do you just like stab yourself? Because this is my question. You're talking about, these arrows, if you're riding the arrow, who's firing the arrow? Let's see how I cannot talk about arrows and quivers here in a way that just becomes a really like protracted masturbation metaphor, but you're firing your own arrow in this case. And you're riding your own arrow in this case. I'm sorry, this isn't a video podcast because Joey and I just had like the exact same reaction.

Ring averse contains adult content Wow Oh my God I don't know Joe me what arrow Would you give the Hawkeyes I would give the hot guys

And this is like a personal thing For me A reply all arrow Right so check this up Again We're we're thinking Outside the box on this one Let's say

The Hot guys are busy on an edit Or you know They've just begun watching Young Justice And they don't really have time To reply to text or slacks or emails, you just shoot one arrow, right? Pugh!

And it like sends out a message to everybody on your phone that's like, hey, Jummi's kind of busy right now. He's got things going on. If you could give him another 90 to 120 minutes to respond to your message, that'd be really great. Thank you and have a great day. You know, just real simple. You shoot one arrow and everybody gets that message. And out of office arrow. Exactly.

Love it. On all your social platforms. You know, it's the future. Is this sound bite your out of office reply all arrow? I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm not replying

to slacks and texts. You know, they just dropped a new episode of Saved by the Bell on Peacock. I've got responsibilities. They said hi is calling to you.

No. All right. We got a question from Phil Jackie. Phil wants to know will Kazi ever wear clown makeup? And if so, Shady shave first or put it over his facial hair like Caesar Romero's Joker. That's such an iconic thing that Caesar Romero did in the old Batman movies.

I think Kazi's never going to wear the clown makeup. I think he's Kazi kind of a name only and is not really going to be the clown. What do you think, Mel? The backstory just seems completely different at this point, as does, frankly, his current deployment. His entire demeanor, everything about him. But the beer does seem like it just disqualifies the prospect of the clown makeup, which, you know, is fine. I'm not mad about it. If it eliminates the eventual clown lucky comics moment, then I'm fine with it because I don't, I don't want that.

I don't want that. It was kind of wearing clown makeup after this episode when he got dispatched real quickly. Hello to the chest. Repeated. He was looking silly. He got got. Zinger arrow right there. Pugh, pew, pew. Our last question comes from Amanda. If Lucky could have a playdate with another pet Avenger, who would you want it to be? Amanda, thank you for your question and your time. Clear the floor. Clear the floor. Clear the floor. Iso. I so. Oh, boy. So, you know.

the comics, Pet Avengers team here, but just in terms of the wonderful animals who we've had the privilege of meeting and spending time with in the MCU, I think my top two draft picks here would be Goose, my beloved Flurkin. And Alligator Loki, though I'm a little worried

about whether Al would know how to behave. I mean, our guy, Al, is used to hanging out in a tiny plastic pool guzzling box wine. Is he ready for this sort of non-Loki variant team up? Who can say?

I think I have to go with Goose. Goose and Lucky? I mean, sign me the fuck up. Yes. My answer is a little thematic to this episode and a little bit about Disney buying Fox. Oh, that Disney owns the X-Men. That means that your friend and mine,

friend to kitty pride, Lockheed the Alien Dragon is on the table. So for me, it's Lockheed and it's no one else. Get out of the way. It's Lockheed time. Wow. Jemmy, what do you say? By the way, I almost picked, I just have to say, I almost picked nuke for my villain earlier,

not because of that exact version of nuke, but just because of the prospect of a weapon plus X-Men. Facebook connection. Oh, God. Jomi, who are you picking? You pick a Mephisto? Oh. Wow, Mel. That's real funny.

Are you picking the fly from that episode of Wanda V-Avindam? Everyone's, I know, I know Steve is laughing. Everybody is, ha ha. Actually, no, I was going to go a whole different round. I think, you know, dogs should have, you know, you know, I haven't seen lucky interact with another pup before. And I'm thinking, since this part of the MCU is bringing all the mistakes back together, you know, let's bring Lockjaw from Inhumans.

Let's do it. Wow. Yeah, they can teleport all over the world and have adventures everywhere. This is great. Redemption arcs for Lockjaw and Colleen and Wing. Let's bring it. Let's bring it all in. Exactly.

We're going to do it. Love it. Oh, my goodness. What a fitting conclusion to this podcast. Been a journey. All right, friends. Lockjaw's waiting and we have a scheduled appointment with our pals at Sloan Limited. So it is time to wrap today's episode.

Thank you as always to our favorite bro. Steve Allman for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal and TD St. Matthew Daniel for their additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode. Brombe! Remember! To follow the Ringerverse on Spotify,

wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringerverse across our social feeds and head back into the Ringerverse next week, Wednesday and Friday, for our instant reaction, Midnight Boys episode on episode 4. and our deep dive on episode four. Until then, remember, there are four arrows. More dangerous than this one. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari.

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