House of R - Analyzing ‘Hawkeye’ Episode 4

Episode Date: December 11, 2021

Did someone say party? Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson are back to dance their way through Episode 4 of 'Hawkeye' and give their analysis (12:12). They talk about the evolution of character themes and the dynamics at play (30:04), and weigh in on the notorious quarter trick (67:46) and the big emotional beats between Clint and Kate (78:09). Later, they go Easter-egg hunting and answer your mailbag questions. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Did I tell you that we relaunched our TV podcast that is now called The Prestige TV Pot? We did it in time for Succession, which is launching in October. But there's so many good shows this fall. We got Yellowstone and Billions and Insecure. We have the shrink next door. Is Mayor of Kingston going to be good? We're going to be breaking all of it down. The morning show season finale. We are going to be here. Like, we're treated like we treat the NBA playoffs. If there's a really good prestigious TV show, we're breaking it down in this feed. Check it out. The prestige TV pod from the Ringer podcast network. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. I need your help with a few decisions on the Bishop Holiday Party. I don't think I'm in the mood.

Come on, Kay. You created this sort of thing. The party's non-denominational encourages company camaraderie with a festive spirit. Sounds like a boss already. Did someone say parties? just make sure there's plenty of dawnsings. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to 3715 Godfrey Road, but also to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me, It's not fair that my inability to act like a grown-up helps me get my way. It's my Halsevar. Fucking title. Co-host. My partner slash best friend, ringer senior staff writer.

Joanna Robinson, JR1. Hello. Oh my God. I was going to call you MR-1. How dare you jump on my plan joke? I have a quick question for you, Mallory Rubin. I suggested that possibly we should have some morning margaritas as we, some morning marks. You're in our office today just to peel back the curtain.

So, you know, you are all business. But my question is, do you ever partake of like a little Christmas cheer in your coffee, a little was sale? How do you feel about it? Oh, wow. You know, in general, no objection. I think increasingly as I age and try to. combat my severe fatigue. It's less of a regular indulgence for me. You know, every now and then, a beverage at brunch, perhaps. I actually, I enjoy an alcoholic coffee in the evening because I'll

have caffeine until midnight. Like, I will never stop guzzling the caffeine. There's no hour too late for me. This I know of you. Yes. Morning booze, pretty rare, though. How about you? I'm a big fan of a little cheer in the coffee. up in the morning. Not on a work day, surely. You got the frozen slushy stuff with you right now in the Thanos was right mug? I have nothing like bright red. There's no, there's nothing like that.

But I just want to recommend on a weekend, let's say, if folks want to try, like Bailey's is the obvious one, but my suggestion is rum chata for an adult morning beverage. Have you ever had rum chata? I don't think so, but Steve is just sending us an incredibly enthusiastic. message in the Zoom chat. Give it a little try. I count like nine exclamation points from Steve here. Give it a little try.

It's got like the the Orchata like yummy delicious spices plus boots. In your coffee, a perfect treat. In the evening, if you prefer. But come the holidays, sometimes I like to put it in the coffee in the morning. That's not why we're here though, Mal.

Why are we here? Are we here to talk about Hawkeye for chance? We're here to talk about Hawkeye, Joe. J.R.1. We are here to chat today about partners. Am I right? The fourth episode of Marvel's Hawkeye. Let's get into the programming reminders very quickly here.

We always do. We always must. We have a big week coming on the feed, folks. Next Wednesday is going to be a House of Midnight team-up pod for Hawkeye episode five. We will be together chatting about the panel. Mid-Hawkeye episode, it's going to be a thrill. Why are we doing a team-up? Because next Friday,

there's a Spider-Man pod. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, Poo-Pew! We'll have their instant reactions for Spider-Man. No Way Home for you next Friday. Joe and I will be back following Monday for our Spider-Man deep dive. I frankly shudder to think

what the runtime of that podcast will be. But somewhere in the multiverse, we will get it just right. Follow along by following. the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, by following our social feeds. The ringer versus on Instagram. The ringer versus on Twitter. The ringer versus on Facebook. We're everywhere. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood. Spoiler

warning. Today's podcast features plot details from the latest Hawkeye episode, the entire Hawkeye run to date, the entire MCU run to date, and Marvel Comics canon. All of it. Can I make a quick comment about that? Please. I feel like, so that's sort of the blanket warning that we've been giving whenever we talk about a Marvel TV show on this podcast. It's all fair game. I think I have heard from some people,

and we're going to talk about this throughout this episode, but given that this particular show, hues a little closer to an actual comic book plot line, I've heard from some people where they're like, it feels a little bit more like you're spoiling things than you have in the past. And I would just say that's just a function of this particular adaptation in which, you know, in the past, I've definitely made predictions about Marvel TV shows based on comic canon that have been deeply wrong again and again. And it's not like I'm going to stop being wrong on this podcast, but like we know more than we usually do because the comics are more integral to this. So you can either jump off when you hear us getting to a space that feels spoiler for you or what I would write.

recommend is you just join us and read the fraction comic and then come back and listen to the whole thing and and live in the book world with us. So I don't know. I just wanted to address some feedback that we have gotten here and there. We do not know anything about how Hawkeye will end. And as is always the case here on the ringerverse, the text is a resource to try to better understand the characters and their dynamics and how the story might unfold. But we ultimately have no idea. And my my sense ultimately is that the way that this series evolves will not necessarily map on directly to the fraction run and that we're going to be picking clues and insights from various aspects of the canon, but also the MCU routinely adapts and adjust comics canon. There is almost never a one-to-one. So it's about better understanding the characters and the canon in the world. No, of course. We're not attempting to spoil anything. No, we definitely don't know what's going to happen. Like sometimes I do know what's going to happen. I definitely do not know what's going to happen here. as evidenced by how I predicted last week's episode would like turn into a big massive sword fight in this episode.

Like obviously I don't know what's going to happen. But I do think it's fair for people to be like not fair necessarily, but I do think it's accurate to say we know a little bit more than we might otherwise because the fraction comic is so closely. And I agree with you that it's not going to map one to one at all. The MCU never does. This show already doesn't. But I do think this adaptation is different and we can talk about that. A little bit more in this episode. Absolutely.

So, in general, proceed with caution, right? Proceed with more caution, certainly, than Kazi did when he got into his own vehicle without checking the backseat. Always look in the backseat. But hopefully this will be a rich text to parse, as always. All right, partner, let's pod. Before we talk Hawkeye today, though, you wanted to hit a couple other beats quickly. Well, first of all, we want to pour a romchata-laced coffee out for Cowboy Bebop, which, was canceled by Netflix after season one.

We talked about this, obviously, on a podcast. It was, I think, a flawed adaptation, but one with some promise. I especially love Joncho's performance on the show. So at least now he can cut his hair if he wants to. So the Joncho Hair Watch, 2021 has ended. Cowboy Beobop is canceled after one season. I'll miss my darling dad, a dog. I will.

I will. Transfer all your love to Lucky instead. And then we want to talk about Arcane. If you listen to The Midnight Boys Who Pew, you might have heard Jomey fighting the good fight for this Netflix animated series Arcane over on that show trying to convince Amanda Charles that they should watch the show. Jomey rightfully called me out when I was talking about Arcane on Twitter. The only reason I was considering even watching it was because of Joey's enthusiasm. And a lot of people called me out because I did not like the look of the animation style. I hadn't watched it yet.

I just didn't like the trailer look at the animation style, which to my eye is a little bit more video gamey than what I usually like in an animated film or television show. Jomey, here's my question for you. Do you think I like Darkane? I watch two episodes. Do you think I like it? Listen, I'm going to go ahead and say you loved it because everyone loved Arcane. You know, it's great television. I'm going to say you love it.

it because why would you be asking to talk about it at the top of the pod otherwise? That's just my tea leaf reading. Mallory sees it. She's like, too, and it's not the type to just trash something. It's true. I will say this. I'm still getting used to the animation style. It's not an easy style for me, but you are 100% right that the world building is fantastic.

Really nothing like it on television, on animated television than I've seen in a long, long time. So I'm a big fan of this. I mean, it's produced by riot games. So I'm not off the mark by saying it looks video game-y. Yeah. It's a League of Legends adaptation. Like, yeah, straight video game stuff. Yeah. So for me, because I don't play a lot of video games, like my eye isn't used to that style. But there's a lot of gorgeous detail. And yeah, it's just, it's a great world to spend time in. So I'm definitely going to watch more Jomey. You're an influencer. It was already true, but now it's a, official. And yeah, so thanks for the wreck. I appreciate it. I'm just really glad that we're getting

all the Ring of Verse, you know, to watch this show. You know, our Juna in the Slack was like, Jomi, I'm locked in. You know what I'm saying? Mal, you know, we need, we need you. It's on the list, man, you know? I, uh, what else could possibly be going on now? My time turner is currently not functioning. And so I unfortunately have not been able to partake yet, but I look forward to checking it out soon. Worst case. Worst case. Worst case. I'll watch it over the holidays. But I'm very much looking forward to it. Seems delightful.

Everyone loves it. We've gotten so many tweets from people asking for more arcane conversation on the pod. So it's clearly something that people are really enjoying. I can't wait to check it out. Love it. First, the ring of verse. Next, we're going to get the big picture to watch it. Let's go.

I'm here. Sean and Amanda, I'm coming. Let's go. Talk about a crossover pod event. My tracer arrows stop moving. It's over by an NYPD facility down by the bridge. And now the LARPERS, they're mostly first responders, one's a cop. See if they can get access to that NYPD facility.

LARPER friends. Yeah, they're colorful. You're going to love them. You know, I like to think of them more as our arrows. Okay, go get our arrows. Okay, quiver loaded. Trick arrows at the ready? I've got a few of the trick arrowheads left,

but we need to go recover the shafts before we can complete this episode. We are ready to talk about episode four, partners in my right, written by Aaron Kansino and Heather Quinn, directed once again by Burton Birdie. This episode was the shortest of the season so far, 40-minute total runtime. This is about like 33, 34 minutes of story

when you take out the previously on, the opening Marvel logo sequence, and the end credits. So quite brisk. What did you think overall? How are you feeling about this episode? How did you feel right after you watched it? How are you feeling a couple days later?

There's this fun tradition in our Slack of like Mal and I unnecessarily watching these episodes at midnight since we have like days literally to watch them. But we watch them right away. And then Mal comes in and is like, Amazing, loved it. And I'm like, I have questions and concerns. And then I usually end up liking it more the longer. I think about it. Just let the record state that what I said was, hell yeah.

Yes. And I didn't want to spoil anything until I knew everybody else had watched, but it was specifically sent right when I saw Yelena. Okay, okay, fair enough. But I did like the episode. It'll shock no one to hear. And I liked it, too. There's a lot to love.

Obviously, I'm delighted anytime Yelina is in front of my eyeballs. I think I maybe liked at least out of all the episodes we've seen so far. but like I really liked the other episodes. And because I felt like the first two, some people complained that the first two felt like a little slow, but it felt like really necessary character introduction for me. And so that all worked for me. And then last week's was just rip-roaring adventure plus emotional devastation.

Like all of that worked really well for me. And then this episode, it felt a little jinky. The pieces, the moving pieces felt a little, not particularly smooth to me necessarily. And there was some, like, shifts in tone. Like, I think the major thing, and we can get to it more specifically later if we want to, but I think the major moment that made me, like, say, what show am I watching here is, I felt a really hard turn from peppy, frozen Marg, Melchaliki Yamaka montage into Clint Devastation.

Do you know what I mean? And I just, like, there was. joy and devastation in last week's episode, but I felt like they were contained in different scenes, whereas this just felt like something leading to something else. Not to say that I haven't had evenings with frozen margaritas that start with the Andrews sisters and end in tears. Like, that's the thing that can happen over the course of an evening as a friendship deepens. Indeed. Yeah. And my emotions are loosened by watching It's a Wonderful Life and whatever it is, but I don't know.

It made me question, a question that we've been asking kind of over and over again, as they're trying to capture this fun, Rogers' musical, Chris is a New York, zany vibe, what show are we watching? Ultimately, like, are there death stakes on this?

When I think about certain things, like we'll talk about grills or we'll talk about, is the action going to move to the Barton Farm? On the one hand, do I kind of want to show down at the Barton Farm that is like very home alone and like the whole family's involved as if like that? I got kind of excited by the idea of that. But then I was like, but I don't. You want little little Nathaniel just right in the thick of that.

But I was like, I don't want Nate in danger. That's the thing. It's like, if this is a life of desist. I mean, I was just like, I don't want Nate in danger. So like, what show we're watching here is, was sort of my question as I came out of this episode. but there's still a lot to love and definitely a lot to talk about. Interesting, yeah.

Okay, I definitely see that. I think that's one of the things I really liked about the episode, actually, is that, like, it feels true both to how a new relationship maybe unfolds with those peaks and valleys and those moments of, like, kind of unvarnished reveals, right?

And certainly inside, of an MCU story in general, but the Clint canon in particular, and given how Ronan and, of course, everything with Natasha and Natasha's death has existed as this very present steady through line. And Natasha was incredibly present in this episode. I think that those moments of despair and grief and reflection. And just the weight of the past more broadly, like, have to be there. And that if it were all holiday cheer and adventure romp, it maybe wouldn't feel as, like, fully realized. So I see what you mean about the exact, like, adjacency and proximity of those tonal shifts and swings.

I enjoyed that, but I certainly see what you mean. Well, processing Nats death, I think, is obviously hugely important. And as you said, we've seen this over and over again in this phase. phase four as people, we've talked about this a lot, processed the fallout of endgame. What's a little different for Clint, and this is actually true of Haka, of Loki as well, is that there's so much blood on his hands. And with Loki, I feel like they a little bit yada yadaed all the things that Loki has done before he got, you know, we care so much about Loki crying at the end of Loki.

We do. I do. I love Tom Hiddleston. I care. But it felt like a really quick journey from the Battle of New York to what Loki was doing in the Battle of New York were surely countless people died to where we find him at the end of Loki. You know what I mean? And for Clint, all the stuff he was doing as Ronan, on the one hand, I feel like there should be a heavier cost for him to pay other than feeling guilt and PTSD about that. But on the other hand, I don't want him not to be on the Barton Farm drinking eggnog at the end of the series.

So I don't, I feel, I feel conflicted about it. It will entirely depend on how these next two episodes play out. It is very possible that is going to play on a way that completely satisfies me. And I hope it does. I've loved to show so much this point. I just get nervous with two episodes left of like how it all is going to balance and play out, you know? Yeah, I mean, that was actually what I wanted to ask you next, like whether it's something like Clint's grief and guilt just as, just as crucially the guilt.

I agree with you. I mean, I think that Ronan can only work most effectively inside of this show if it is not just a plot device, but ultimately a consistent cause for Clint to really grapple with and for other characters, too, to really grapple with what he has done. Like, I don't necessarily think Kate's response to learning and piecing together that he's Ronan should be, well, we all make mistakes.

It should be really, like, thinking about the fact that the person she idolizes was capable of doing those things. So hopefully we get all that over two episodes. I think that we could, but I think you're right that that balance will be the question hanging over this final two-episode stretch, which is, of course, not just an emotional journey, not just the character arc, but a plot journey as well. Do you think there's enough time? And I'm curious for your thoughts on the structure of the season in this respect, too, because, you know, two episodes came out together, whether that was always the intention or just a reality of the current Marvel release schedule, Who knows? I don't know. Maybe you do, but more broadly in terms of the runtime of each episode and the fact that three and four were both quite brisk, right? Very brisk. All of these characters are either mysteries at this point. You know, we're talking about Eleanor's role, what we'll learn about. Maya, Jack, whether Kingpin will really come in. Yelena is here. I think if I recall, one episode earlier than both of us predicted we thought maybe five, but has yet to speak, right? So there's a lot to come.

Is there time and space for all of it? Like, are you, how worried are you about landing this? To your point, you know, the Disney shows have been flex in their running time. And you pointed this out with Wanda Vision that the runtime really grew in the last couple episodes of Wanda Vision. So it's possible that they have six hours of story to tell. And we got two little shorter episodes in the middle here and we're going to get longer episodes of the end.

I don't know that. I'm just saying it's possible that we're going to get, like, chunkier episodes at the end when they have to like do all this stuff. Yeah. I would expect that. Yeah. I hope that's the case. I think they need all the time that they can get to do all this stuff.

I have been trying to think. And I've been saying this like, I think the last two episodes that we've recorded, I've been like, well, there's only three more episodes left. There's only, you know, like, so when we start projecting like what the plot will be, I think we need to try to strip it down and strip it down. Like I've been thinking after this week's episode that the Maya stuff that we've been predicting from the comics, like her revelations about Kingpin and stuff like that, we might not get that until her series.

Yeah, you know what I mean? There might not be room to shove that in here. And with Yulina, I think I thought Yulina was going to be the tale, like, because every episode has ended with a, uh-oh, sort of thing. And so, like, last week was Jack and the Sword, and this week is Yelena arriving. And then next week is going to be more substantially her episode. That's sort of the pattern we've been doing. So what we might get is

Uh-oh, Kingpin at the end of episode five And then, you know, that's some, you know, like In terms of when we expect Kingpin to arrive, if he does at all And whether or not that coincides with no way home dropping in theaters On the same day, et cetera, et cetera, you know. Yeah, it's interesting because Based on the structure of the series so far, I definitely agree that that maps on pretty closely and would work.

I think that we're going to talk a lot more as we go today about Eleanor and all of the clues and signs. Suspicious, highly suspicious signs we got in this episode that she is indeed, you know, a villain as suspected by us and many people watching the show. I think given the, this is like no shade sincerely at Eleanor as a character. I think Eleanor's been awesome and really interesting to watch. Given the fan expectation and hype around introducing Kingpin into the MCU, I think it would be frankly bizarre to present him at the end of episode five and then make episode six about the Eleanor reveal. Like, it almost feels to me like it would have to go in the opposite direction, that they learn some truth about Eleanor and her role in Sloan, track. suits, whatever her connection to potentially the big guy is. And, you know, if we parse like the season trailer for clues, you know, you pointed out when we were prepping that one of the pretty

present scenes throughout the trailers that we got is this, you know, holiday sware, rock center. And whether it's Clint dodging bullets inside of a banquet scene or what seems to be unfolding on the ice skating rink down below, that feels like it's probably going to be the nominal, like, final battle of the season. It feels like it has to be the finale. It does. Right. And so that would indicate maybe that the Eleanor Reveal comes there, which I think would be appropriate for the way the season would conclude, but I just, I don't know, Kingpin coming in sooner and then not being the focus of the finale would feel strange to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. If they're just, if they bring him in, I mean, the same way that Jack was brought in, but is not,

I wouldn't call him like the focus of this episode. Jack is like this thing that, uh-oh, shows up at the end of the episode last week's episode, and then he's here in this episode. But Jack and the storage manager, that's just like not akin to Fisk and Kingpin in terms of what people are going to want after you get a moment like that, right? But I do. Okay, so let's, let's contextualize this Kingpin hype thing. Yeah.

I don't know what if any Reddit boards that you frequent. But the one that I frequent, it was bizarre what happened with this episode because, you know, one of the writers, Hawkeye Writers went online and was like, hey, you're going to want to stick around to the end of this episode, as if anyone was going anywhere, like it's 33 minutes of story.

But anyway, she was like, you're going to want to stick around to the end. She's basically teasing Elena, right? But people expecting Kingpin took that hint to mean Kingpin was coming. And so the Reddit boards were just clogged

with Kingpin gifts for like 48 hours. And then when he didn't show up, all of the reactions for the first couple hours after the episode dropped were where the hell was Kingpin. And again, this feels like that does feel like Mephisto all over again

because I'm just like, let's talk about all the other cool stuff that was in this episode, whether or not Kingpin is here, whether or not he, so I worry that. But that's what I mean. Like, I'm not talking about the expectation for Kingpin arriving.

I'm talking about if they actually introduced him in episode five, that would feel like it changed the equation in a bad way for the show where you wouldn't then be able to just spend the time with the characters who the show is actually about. So if he's coming in, I'm hopeful that it's at the very end, even potentially a stinger, because I want the dominant runtime of episodes five and six to be about Kate and her mother and Clint and Laura, and Clint and Kate and Maya and William and Kasi and all of these characters.

And I think if Kinkman came in in in episode five, it just changes the calibration of what people are going to want in episode six. And if he comes in later, then the anticipation that you're talking about and the hunger for it, that won't go away. But once he's actually here, beyond just, you know, what we think was him with the glimpse of the hand and the torso and the cufflings and the cheek pinch, right? Then it just becomes hard to, like, pan away again, I think. I 100% agree with you.

And it would be my preference that he just showed up at the end of the series as a stinger. And I hope that's the case. but I do think he's showing up at the end of episode five. And I don't, I agree with you that. And I don't know that. That's not a spoiler. I definitely don't know that.

But I do think that, I agree. Like, I think the most interesting thing in the final episode, we're going to talk about Laura, obviously, a lot. But like the Eleanor and Kate stuff, like, that is hugely interesting and important to me. And much with love and respect to Wilson Fisk and Vincent Dinoffrio, who I love. But that's not the story I'm willing. watching right now. If all of that is part of a pivot to echo and he is massively important to echo, that's what I would prefer his function to be in the series. And you're right that if he shows

at the end of an episode five, it overshadows whatever wrap up we need to do in episode six. So we'll keep our eye on when old king, and it might be that it all works out perfectly. But yeah, I do think the Bishop Security Holiday Christmas Party is our big final. Like, I had convinced myself it might be Barton Farms. But then when Eleanor mentions the Bishop Christmas Party and I remembered the formalware from the trailer. And in talking about the adaptation, with the exception of Echo, I kind of feel like if there's going to be a thing, there's a correlation for it in the comics. It's not directly the same, but there's a correlation. So is there a fancy event where Clint and Kate dress up in former wear and go there in the Fraction comics?

Yes. Is Kingpin at that party? Yes. So, you know, it's not Bishop Security's holiday party. But like I kind of feel like they read this comic and they're like, okay, let's do a fancyware party. Let's do Kazi but different. Let's do instead of the residence of the apartment building, let's get some LARPERS in here to give like that sort of human. element. Like all, it's there, but not there at the same time. Do you know what I mean?

Totally. Yeah. And if Eleanor is, in fact, going to be revealed as the, the character and puppeteer that we, we think she will be, you think back to that fascinating whispered exchange with Armand in the first episode that Kate overheard and something like Armand saying that he had powerful friends too, obviously establishes that Eleanor has really powerful friends. So whether she and kinkmen are actually actively working together or just running in the same sort of like crime syndicate circles? Are they rivals? Who knows? But yeah, I think the idea of him showing up there is spot on. I think that feels very, very probable at this point. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast,

that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. I talked to that friend of yours. He's really busy.

He's been learning Russian and jogging at 10. Track suits. So Sloan's front. Yep. He said that his boss, Jack Duquesne, never gets. a day off. Jack's CEO. You're lottery money

for the big guy? Let me guess. You're going to need another day. Yeah. Look, this kid I'm helping is stuck in the middle of this.

I can't leave until I know she's safe. I've been wondering, for I shouldn't have me off the reliance? You know. Let's talk more about the episode that we just saw. Because there's a lot to talk about.

A lot of fascinating character dynamics, these themes of partnership. Again, the episode is titled, Are my right? You screenshot it in our doc that led a delightful little moment where Kate says, you know, there are arrows and Clinton concedes, okay, go get our arrows. Partnership, teamwork, the pursuit of that, the limits of it, the challenges that it can present more broadly this idea of history, the weight of it, and the ties that bind across that shared history. This was a heavy Natasha memory episode in multiple sequences, multiple respects. Eleanor bringing up Natasha to Clint to try to unmoor him. The shot I didn't take. Very cold.

The shot I didn't take conversation between Clint and Kate. Obviously, Yelena arriving and Yelena's history and, you know, family ties with, with Nat and her pursuit of Clint. We'll talk about the val of it all as we go. The Laura mysteries and the history that might be brought to the fore in that respect. and just this pervasive sense across the episode of lessons learned and insights gained, hard lessons often, but also this like debt, this guilt, this sense of secrets, secrets and something else always, always, always waiting to be uncovered.

So we obviously are going to talk a lot about Clinton, Kate, and all of these other parents, but I feel like we should start with Clinton Lara because Laura mysteries, the watch, who Laura might be. This is what the internet has been buzzing about for days. And let the Slack record show that immediately after the episode, as I was like trying to navigate Kingpin disappointment on the Reddit boards, immediately this Laura stuff is

popping up. And I got, I got jazzed at like 1 a.m. on Wednesday about the Laura stuff. I got really excited. And now as we record on Friday morning, I'm still. excited, but I have also received 900 tweets from people in the interim being like, what do you think about Laura? What about Laura? What about Laura? And I'm like, yeah, we're going to talk about her. I'm excited to talk about her. I think this is a really interesting development. Should we, do you want to premise sort of what the main theories are? Do you want me to do it? I think we have two different

buckets to hit here. So let's take them, let's take them one at a time, even though they are of course, related. Yeah. There's the watch and who the watch might belong to and what Laura's involvement in the conversations are on the watch might point to about, and this is the second bucket, who Laura might be and what Laura's history might be. So let's start with the broader Lara question and then we can dive into some of the watch specifics and maybe if we have other watch theories outside of Laura, which I think there are numerous to run through. We can hit those two, but run us through the Lara theories of the moment and how we arrived at them. Okay, so there's two big ones. And I think one of, you know, I was actually talking to our colleague Chris Ryan about this on Slack as well. Like, because he and Andy in their expressing their disappointment about the series as a whole, a take I do not share.

We're talking specifically about feeling like an actress of Linda Cardalini's caliber felt wasted as a wife on the phone back home. And I think people are looking at Linda Cardalini, who's fantastic and everything she does and wanting more from from Laura Barton, like wanting more from this character from this actress. And so I think people are excited by as, and we've called this out before when she's talking about the tracksuits, oh, those idiots, or oh, that's all moves. We were talking about, wow, Laura is really dialed into Clint's life, these tactics, these players, all this sort of stuff. So this idea crops up that perhaps Laura might be, have been a former agent of Shield

herself, canonically in the comics. Clint Barton is married to a character named Bobby Morris, aka Mockingbird. Bobby Morris was a character on Agents of Shield, played by Frighton and Lies alum, Adrian Pallickey, like great, great actress. I don't, Agents of Shield is not necessarily canon for the Marvel stuff. So they could do, it could be that Laura Barton was Bobby Morris at one point, or they could have respect for Ages of Shield. And just say that Laura Barton was mockingbird.

Because Bobby Morris saw an age of the shield was never called a mockingbird. So you could still have that Bobby Morris exist and have Laura Barton have been a mockingbird and both of those things being true. To that point about adaptation from the fraction comic, you know, Bobby shows up in, she's Clint's ex-wife at that point. But Bobby shows up in the comics. And so it's an, and there's a whole series of issues that are about Clint's various romantic entanglements. Boy are there. So this idea of like pulling his wife in and not just like a, and there's something wrong with being like a cool wife on a farm with three kids making gingerbread houses.

That's a cool thing to do. But like giving her all this other stuff to do would be really fun and interesting. There's another theory, a non-Bobby theory that might be much the relief of Jomey who just expressed some dismay at maybe erasing. Ages of Shield Erasure, which is the idea that maybe because of her immediate concern about the watch, we'll talk about that a second, the watch seems connected to the Ronan stuff

in some way, possibly, that maybe she could have been Ronan before Clint was Ronan. She wouldn't exactly fill out the exact suit that he had, but this idea that maybe he got this idea from her. And that goes even to, the story he's telling about the shot he didn't take with a woman. It seems very obvious that that would be Nat.

And the way that Jeremy Renner played the, you know, Kate says Nat, and he says, yeah, in a way that doesn't seem like I'm trying to cover a lie. It seems like he's just in the moment. So I don't know that I think he wasn't talking about Nat in all of that. But some people are wondering if Laura Barton was really, Ronan, maybe working for Kim, Penn or not or whatever, before Clint, if he didn't take a shot with her, but took a shot with her, if you know what I mean? And like, offered her a hand out of, out of the biz. And, uh, and if, and if that might be a reason why she would better understand

what he was up to during the snap, if he's like, babe, I went dark and I did Ronan stuff. And she's like, babe, I've also done Ronan stuff. So I get it. Um, so Laura Barton, previous Ronan question mark. I'm leaning more towards mockingbird stuff. Yeah. But Clint says his mistakes is running are tied to me and tied to my family. And it just, it makes sense to me that whatever the watch is, and again, as you mentioned, we'll talk about alternate stakes.

But the way which Laura immediately goes to the watch immediately, makes me feel like, and the way that Clint talks about my friend who's been out of the business for a while. and, you know, no more friend, all this sort of stuff. It really does feel like he's talking about Laura in that moment. I don't know how that watch might be connected to her since it's a chunky Rolex, but, you know, we can talk about all of that. But the idea of putting, like, personal family, it's not just about Clint getting home in time for Christmas. It's about the personal familial stakes on all this for Clint. And the personal familial stakes on all this for Kate, if Eleanor.

is involved. Okay. Woo! Boy! Laura! I have, all right, I have a few follow-up thoughts.

Thank you for that. It's incredible run-through of the constellation of possibilities here. My goodness. I, to the last point, I think that learning more about Laura and her potential involvement as an agent of Shield or anything else would be really neat because of that parallel of family reveals. Laura, inside the Barton family with Clint, what we'll learn about, Eleanor for Kate. I really like, and we talked about this last week with the Echoes episode, these mirrors

and parallels that are emerging across character sets across the story. I think that would really fit and be great. The Ronan thing had not occurred to me until you mentioned it. I would, I think I'd have a hard time processing Laura as Ronan, to be, to be frank. I think that the mockingbird and agent of shield possibility is a much smoother cell for in, in various respects. But there are so many, there are so many little things across this episode. And obviously, like, Laura has always been intimately involved with Clint's life. You know, if you think back to Ultron and just the way that she talked to him. him about his avenging and, oh, these gods, and they do need you.

And in this show, you know, not just the track suits knowledge that we gleaned earlier in the run, as already noted. But the German speaking in this episode, the Rolex callback, the fact that when Clint needs something, he needs to find out about Sloan, Limited, he text Laura immediately because he knows, without doubt, that she will be able to get the information that he needs. And she does so incredibly quickly. Like we're talking elevator ride down to the street quickly.

She comes back with the shell company, Jack's CEO, and Clint then has the ensuing line about laundering money for the big guy, right? So she is able to get this intel with a quickness, some sort of technological access here, but also clearly training in this experience, right? Thinking also just to something back in Ultron, And it was always like such a funny moment at the time. And now you look back and you're like,

oh, can they be working this into like a tiny bit of foreshadowing after the fact? Tony walking in and saying this is an agent of some kind. And, you know, other than Nat and obviously Fury, who Clint explains to everyone, you know, but what he says is Fury helped me set this up when I joined, kept it off Shields files. I'd like to keep it that way. I think that specific language is interesting. to think about now too because we know that Nat and Fury knew, but he specifically

didn't, they don't want Shield to know. So does that mean to the Ronan possibility that Laura and maybe perhaps she was working for Shield and is out of the game and they don't want anyone to know about this for some reason, but maybe she was a target of Shields, right?

And they don't want anyone to know for this reason. So there are a lot of different possibilities here eventually tracking the watch transmitter inside of this episode another like, okay, so there's something happening here. I just want to say one thing. Yeah.

Of all these possibilities, Mockingbird, anything else, I'll be able to, I'll be able to hang with a lot of outcomes here. There's one thing I will not accept that I'll genuinely have a really hard time with. And it's the possibility

of that conversation about the shot I didn't take having been about someone other than that. Like I just think that Natasha, Clinton partnership, friendship, backstory is in the don't fuck with it category for me. And if a moment that is so heart-wrenching and emotionally intense,

like that conversation between Clint and Kate and Clint talking about the weight of that and the impact of that, like, I just, I think that turning that into cover for a plot reveal would feel cheap. I would not be a fan of that. So I hope that's not the case. I hear you with that. To zoom back to Ultron, I think it's so interesting. So like, you know, as as students of the MCU know, the Barton Farm stuff was something that Jaws Whedon had to, like, fight tooth and nail. And it was sort of part of the end of his relationship with Marvel in general to get into this movie. And this, the Ultron as a movie, was so much about the value of the ordinary guy. Like, what does Clint an ordinary guy bring to the fight? As you just alluded to.

And so Weed in fights for this Barton Farm thing to be in the movie, which the powers that be at Marvel do not want in the movie. And, you know, I think Chris and Andy were talking about this. They felt like Andy feels like it was a mistake to saddle Clint with a family. I disagree and I really disagree in terms of how it's playing out in this show. I think it's fantastic tension and drama of like, can Clint get home for Christmas? think that that works really well as a framework and countdown for the show. But it would be interesting to me if we didn't fought so hard to put this ordinary guy, ordinary family storyline in there. And then Marble was like, but what if she's and off the books agents of shield? You know,

like all of that would be, I think we don't have to care how Joss would feel about it. But like, I think that would be an interesting like workaround for like this fight that they had years ago. And this idea that it's off the books of Shield. Either, yes, maybe Laura was a target, or if we want to keep it in the Mockingbird realm, which I think both you and I would prefer. If she was involved in something, you know, there's a plot in the comics. It's about this VHS tape that, you know, where's the Amex black? Where is, oh boy.

That is a, the VHS tape is sort of, it's hard to explain the whole complicated plot around it, But basically, like, if it got out, it would imply that an Avenger was involved in a political assassination attempt, right? And so, like, are they doing some kind of analog with the watch where if the watch gets out, it is somehow evidence that someone, maybe Laura, was involved in some sort of off the books kind of mission that would make Shield or the Avengers or the government or someone look bad? and are they hiding her because she was involved in something that, you know, she needs to disappear. And so they set up the Barton Farm, not even Shielders about it. Kingpin certainly can't find her or else it's curtains. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know exactly how that would work, but it is important.

I think that there's a tracking device in that watch, whatever, however that might pain out, you know? That's interesting because I think there's a little bit of a weird thing going on right now with like, how public is the knowledge that Clint has a family at this point? Like when Eleanor, obviously the kids are with him in New York and Laura is not, but once your kids are out in the public eye,

how hard is it to like trace them back to their home in Missouri and figure it all out, right? Presumably not very. So if she were seriously in hiding, I think that they would not have done something like sent that, presumably they would not have thought it wise

to send the kids on this trip to see Rogers the musical and then go out to dinner. And, like, even, like, I felt myself confused by, and I think it's totally plausible that it's just Eleanor, who was already working to unbalanced Clint with a Natasha comment, is also working to, you know, under this, like, not to say her concern for Kate is not sincere, I'm sure it is,

but that's this convenient cover in which she can work all of her other games, including this, like, hey, do you, you know, do you have kids line? he's out at the at a broadway play with his family like it disbranding issues recurring bit aside people would see that he was there with his family they would know he had a family yeah he was recognized at dinner he was recognized at dinner yeah exactly so i i feel like they would just be able to know then that this is where they all were and that would be a that would be a little bit of a tough thing for them to sell at this point too but i i will say just the other thing to your point about kind of like the ordinary guy and the family life thing.

Like, I think that it would be awesome to learn more about Lara and, you know, unravel one more mystery. I think that it's also, as you've already, like, said, and I really agree, like, completely fine and great if that's not the case. Because having a family and being a mom and a wife is awesome. And I think they have to be careful about going to a place where they, like, implaus. otherwise. And the Clint family stuff is already very fraught inside of the MCU because of Warmir. And, you know, Clint, we won't relitigate all of that. Now you, if anyone's interested in our takes, we have hours of podcasts about them on various feeds. But, you know, that generally very powerful sequence between Clint and Nat has this kind of like rotten element

at the middle of it, this implication that Clint's life is more valuable because he has this family and Natasha doesn't, which I think we both like staunchly disagree with, right? Correct. So I just hope that there's not, and I don't think this will be the case, but I hope that there's not a element to come where there's some compulsion to justify Laura's existence outside of the one that they already have, which is this beautiful family that is clearly, the Clint's family. and Natasha are the two, like, beating hearts of his existence, the most important things to him in his life. And that is genuinely and truly, like, meaningful and enough. So the mysteries are fun and the theories are fun. And I think there's a lot of cool stuff they could do here. I hope it's handled deftly. I expect that inside of this show, which has been quite strong so far, it will be. But I just wanted to say that. I really love that point. I think it's really important to make. And I think, you know, I'm of two minds about it because, as we've been saying before, there's only two more episodes left. There's only two, we can't, we, there's no room for like a full backstory. Give us those Netflix-length seasons.

No, don't. We don't. Don't give me the Netflix 10 episodes with four episodes. They don't know what they're doing. I'm the only person alive who feels that way. I know it. It's okay. But, but at the same time, and let's, you know, this is a good transition to maybe some of your other theories about the watch.

I think with only two episodes left, to me. it's tidier if whoever Clint's talking about or whatever's going on is something that's already existent in the show, not a new character that we need to introduce, even if it's a character we're familiar with in the MCU, there's only two episodes left. So it feels like, it's like

with a murder mystery, like you need to have already seen the murderer throughout the plot. You can't meet them right at the very end. So I just feel like with only two episodes to go, we both don't have time for the full Laura story. And at the same time, with all of her know-how, the German, the everything,

they have been laying a breadcrumb for this reveal within the show. It's not the same as like the aerospace engineer shit that happened in Wanda Vision. That was a beautiful moment on the internet, which I will never forget. It's different than that. But again, what I've learned from these Marvel TV shows is if it's not what you're predicting it is, if she is, I don't even want to say just Laura Barton. If she is the very great Laura Barton who we already like, that is fine too. Yeah. That's great. You know. So, the watch. Yeah. I'm tempted to ask you a question based on what you just said about whether you think the

end of Loki changes any of that calculus about actually introducing a very central new element laid in being able to swing it. But that was obviously an extraordinary set of circumstances. And I think we could just end up talking about Loki for 45 minutes if we go down that road now. But let's maybe keep that in mind. And if there's a moment, we can circle back to it. So the watch. Fair. Fair. Okay.

Couple key exchanges about the watch before we run through the list of possibilities here. On the phone, Laura says to Clint, I've been wondering. And then immediately transitions into German, anything else go missing from the compound is what the subtitles tell us she's saying. Clint immediately asks, you mean the Rolex. There is no delay, no processing, no thinking. It is like there is no other possible things she could be talking about, which is certainly one of the powerful clues that points toward her having a direct connection to this watch, right? They both are talking about the same thing and they know it.

Remember there was that moment earlier in the season when Clint is saying like, Oh, I hope nothing else got taken. It wouldn't be good if other things from the Avengers compound were floating out in the world. You look back and you think, okay, was that specifically about the watch and this concern? But what he says here is, I don't think so. Why? Wasn't that destroyed like years ago? She says, well, I thought so.

But I thought the same thing about your fancy outfit, the Ronan Sea, of course. Some interesting timeline implications to chew on there. But anyway, Clint, looking worse. read, I think, says, well, it's worth looking into, ain't it? If you can, check the signal from a transmitter. Okay. All right. She chases the transmitter to what we will eventually learn is Maya's apartment. And at that setting, for the final sequence of the episode, Clint says to Kate, something very important to me is pinging inside that apartment. Very important to me. So I think that supports also what you're saying, that it's not only just the Laura

possibility, but like someone who is directly connected to Clint in a meaning. full way. This makes like possibilities like Matt Murdoch, I think less likely, even though that was my first thought. And I think maybe both of our first thoughts, right? He tells Kate to look for, quote, a watch vintage Rolex belongs to someone I used to work with. Is that the whole story, Clint? Kate helpfully asks. Thanks, Kate. And he says, they've been out of the game a long time, but their identity is still attached to that watch. Fascinating. She says, and if the track suits find out about it, Clint replies, it would blow their cover goodbye friend.

Goodbye friend. And the way the runner delivered goodbye friend is like really, really heavy. Yes. So I'm going to just run through quickly a list of possible candidates and then we can very, very, very quickly, like rapid fire. We're great at that. The rapid fire lightning on stuff. Rapid. Key word, yes. Quickly talk about the case for or against each.

Okay. Laura, Matt Murdoch, Nick Fury, Drey, Drakov, Derek Bishop, Kingpin, William Lopez. Anyone missing from that list, you think, before we quickly talk about each of them? No, but I think it's worth pointing out that all of the other people on the list are men, because that is a man's watch. like no shape actually there are women who could pull off that watch in a very like billy eyelish like cool style way but that doesn't seem to be laur and barton style so it looks like it belongs on a on a heavier wrist which it doesn't mean it's not connected to laura it just

it's not just like it's not her watch it's a watch that was involved in something okay go ahead rapid fire rapid fire okay so matt murdock i think was our first thought it just feels like it could be a fun way to potentially introduce this, not only to bring Matt Murdoch and Daredevil into the story. And we've mentioned before, like the timeline of overlap with the final stretch of Hawkeye and No Way Home and all the rumors there. This idea that Matt could be living his life as a lawyer as Matt Murdoch, but maybe his history is Daredevil at this point.

could be a secret in some way, right? And that this could be the way into changing that inside of the MCU somehow. I think I first thought was Matt because we were like, again, it feels like it can't be too outside the box with only two episodes left. And like, who would Kingpin be fixated on exposing and tracking down? And Daredevil feels at the top of that list. So, yeah. And while we know from the Kazimaya conversation last week, from the Clint Kazi conversation this week,

We know that the big guy wants to keep a low profile and that the Ronan pursuit is like something that Maya seems to be freelancing on. But the watch's introduction in this television show was the reason that the track suits attacked the auction. That was what they were after the watch. And so that certainly reasonable to think that could have been kingpin's orders. Maybe Mayas, but could have been could have been king pins. So could the watch be king king pins? you know, could something about that be a risk to him, something that he needs to contain? Why is it at Maya's apartment is a question?

Do you know what I mean? Like, is it actually more tied to Ronan stuff than Kingpin stuff? Do you know what I mean? Like, if Maya sent the tracksuits after the watch, my question is like, if it's so important to Kingpin, why is it just chilling on a ledge at Maya's apartment? That's my question about it. And also to continue to track the watch, I believe Kate still has it, which is, Clinton think about when he sent her away in this episode, right?

Doesn't case still have the watch that has a tracker in it? I don't know. Anyway. Oh, boy. Well, what about the William Lopez possibility? Could it be Maya's father's watch and could it reveal something about what actually happened? Whether that Ronan was Clint, whether it was another Ronan, what was actually happening in that death sequence and maybe inside of the organization more broadly? Again, with only two episodes left, it feels...

a lot. Like a bad idea to go wild with our predictions. But what if William Lopez was like working with Clint? No, but he's been out of the game for a long time as a really dicey way to say he's dead. But I was like, well, what if he was working with Clint to expose Kingpin's organization? And that's how he got got by Kingpin. But again, it doesn't really line up with the whole like someone I used to work with who's been out of the game for a long time because it's funny. Again, tough description of death.

William probably doesn't fit with goodbye friend. Like that's, yeah, probably the... He's already gone. Friend is, we've said goodbye to friend at that point already. All right, a couple other ones. What about Dreykhov, given the way, not only with Yelena and the, you know, ever-present nature of Nat's memory,

but the idea of the Black Widow, the Black Widow assassin, has come into the story with that final fight. Dracoff, definitely a wristwatch guy. if you scan back and Black Widow loves a watch. This would also, I think, fall into the same bucket of like this would just be a lot to introduce and explain. And of course would make no sense in terms of this being someone Clint cared about. It would be illogical from that perspective.

But this is definitely a name that's out there. So I wanted to raise it. If it was connected to Drakoff and Laura, like I don't think we mentioned this in the possibilities, but what if Laura was a former Black Widow? I think that's another theory that's floating around. And if she, I know we know at the beginning of the season, I think he said something like Wish You Were Here and she's like the point of this trip is for you to spend time with her kids. But maybe Laura's not allowed to leave the farm at all because like of trying to keep her off the book. She's not allowed to go to New York.

She can't leave the farm. She's like a Westworld Android on her loop. She's not allowed to go anywhere. She did go to Tony's funeral. Okay, anyway, that's a long way of saying I don't think of strike off. No. Agreed. I also do not think it's Drake off.

My second thought, like my instant thoughts when this happened, Mamadok was first, Laura was third for me. My second thought was Nick Fury because I do think that Fury fits both in terms of having this like history with Clint. Being kind of out of the mix, again, there's a lot of like, where are we in time questions with phase four in general, but given the scroll of it all and everything we learned in far from home and the fact that Clint would be concerned

about what might happen. Also, Fury is someone Laura knows and has history with, right? And I think that secret invasion is looming, and we know that, right? And so in reintroducing Fury into the plot in some Marvel property soon, not that you need to do a lot of work to reintroduce Nick Furium,

is one of the throughlines of the entire thing to date, right? But I think they could sell that, actually. So he was pretty high, and it actually remains pretty high on my list because he is really connected to this family, this group of people already. And I think they would be interested in protecting him. I think that the idea of Nick Fury being afraid of, like, Kingpin or anyone else in pursuit of him, he just wouldn't be, right? Well, here's my question. I mean, this is a big question I have is like, if, say, Laura Barton, he's hiding on a farm. arm because they need to keep her hidden from Kingpin because of something that she did.

That part I, but that part I don't, that part I don't think works because. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, Shield doesn't like, they don't, whether it's Shield or in the Avengers or anyone else, like they're not in the business of hiding from these people. They go get them, right? So to leave Wilson Fiske active and put Laura in hiding would be inane, right? That was precisely my point. Yeah.

So, um, partners. The partners. Am I right? But so that doesn't make sense. So whatever she's hiding from, again, I think it might have to do some sort of like public exposure of like it's not, I mean, a kingpin finds her is bad. But if whatever happened with the watch is exposed, maybe that's the real bad thing that could happen. So Laura is the number one contender here. That's where I think I think so.

Laura or a one degree of separation connection to Laura. I think it's really interesting that he kept the pronoun gender neutral. Yes, there. You know. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice.

Off campus, L. Every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. How do you take your coffee? Piping hot, ice, strong, frothy.

But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try Two Good and Company creamers. They're made with farm-fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first?

Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. Can I tell you a secret? Please don't do this. I was talking to an Avenger. He's in my ear. Maybe you should stop talking. Yeah, I'm his partner. I'll just take this back.

I can help you to the door, no problem. Oh, that's all right. I got it from here. Okay, are you sure? It's really no problem. All right, you take care now. Should we talk a bit about Clinton Kate? Oh yeah, Kate Bishops on this show.

Another great Kate episode. Ugly sweaters, movie marathons, frozen margues, and dafferies. Amazing stuff from Kate. A question we got, I don't know if it actually made it into our mailbag roundup. I'm just going to bring it up here, though, in case it did, is if they were putting some Christmas cheer in their daquiries. Yeah. Which, why wouldn't they be? I think so.

Yeah. That's a lot of frozen slush to consume otherwise. They were going through it. Disney Plus just didn't show us, but the question is, if booze was mixed into that out of Moira's freezer, let's say, Case 22 of legal drinking age. Yep. What kind of Christmas share do you think they were putting in the marks? Oh, boy. I think they're going to whatever, whatever's available there in Moira's drinking cabinet.

Moira strikes me as a gin or vodka lady, just going to say. Yeah. But I'm hopeful that she has some tequila because tequila, to quote Bradley Whitford and in the woods, tequila is my lady. And that would be my preference in a frozen margarita drinking montage. Amazing. Joanna, do you have a top draft pick for who your ideal drinking buddy would be inside of the entire MCU canon?

100% Valkyrie. Tessa Thompson's Valkyrie all day, all night. Great one. That's a great one. How about you? How about you? My pick is just anyone in any way associated with Asgard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me some of that 1,000-year-old spirit.

You want to quaff. Yeah, I see. This whole sequence with Kate on the heels of hearing, you know, Jack and Eleanor talk about family and raising the spirits and what could be more important going to Clint, who is alone in the safe house at that point, and bringing him the ugly sweaters that he was supposed to wear with his family, bringing him the holiday movies for the movie marathon that he was supposed to be sharing with his family.

I love the fact that she remembered it was movie marathon night from the conversation with the phone call that she helped with with Clint and Nate in the prior episode. That's just like such a small little thing that tells you so much about how really deeply this bond is developing between them already.

And lucky, my guy pizza dog, just a bee line to the bowl of cheese it. You know, any really, any food product with cheese on it or in it or in the name or in some sort of form in the ingredient list. He's in. Again, I mean, deeply concerned about his nutritional wellness right now, but he seems happy. He's got the Santa hat on the Rudolph reindeer antlers. It's just a delight. And one of the things that we've been talking about throughout the season was, and we've spoken about this, you've spoken about this in the interviews you've done, what exactly is the dynamic in the show between Clint and Kate? Is it brother-sister bond? Is it a paternal bond? Obviously, either way, there's a mentor-mentee,

and of course, Kate would be the first to say there's a partnership, right? The thing that was so palpable in this scene was that it's a friendship. Like, these are people who are really learning to care about each other and show pieces of themselves to each other. And I just thought this sequence was awesome. I loved it. I also loved it. First of all, that's a great...

I heard someone complain about the Christmas music used in this episode. I think Malakaliki Maka is an iconic Christmas song. I'm a big fan of it. I'm glad that they played it. Yeah, they're brainstorming the non-dry race marker gag. That's so funny.

Are you sure? That's a dry erase board. Great stuff. Now it's just forever on Moira's poster of one of her own movies just says Ronan and TMS. TSM, excuse me. There are ways you can get rid of that. And I hope they figure it out. But I think all of Haley's line readings and all of this, I think she's just so funny.

And like, I think Renner is not the top person I think of in the MCU when it comes to, like, comedy delivery. But I think his deadpan with her, like, you know, whatever. I think it works really, really well. The boomerang arrow conversation, of course, you know, for my heart particularly. Another comics moment and, of course, another inversion, right, where they're switching. Yeah. That's great. You got any other cool tricks? Well, I could knock somebody unconscious with that. I have 20 feet away. No, you can't. I can use a quarter or nickel at times too light.

Prove it. We're not your unconscious. No. I want you to hit something. Fine. Live forever without me believing you. I'll just tell every stranger that I see. Hawkeyes full of bolts.

Whoa. You've got to show me how you just did that. Has the time come for us to talk about the quarter trick, the quarter flip, and the controversy? Sure. The reverse controversy that has sprung up around it. Midnight Boys, you can go listen to them, Pew, Pew, talk about the, the coin toss training montage here. This is another comics illusion in the comics.

Clint learned this from his brother, Barney, growing up. This is like a thing that they did. And it's in the, as you noted in our notes, it's in the closing credits animation. The coin toss is in there. So does that mean that Kate learning how to do this will play into the final battle somehow? I would love that if she has to flip a coin to...

Can't be a dime. Dimes are too light. Keep that in mind. Got it got a heavy, a hefty coin. I love this. I see no issues with this. I see no issues with Kate learning how to do this. We don't know how long she was practicing, first of all.

Secondly, she's training her all life to be a marksman. So the fact that, you know, she might have been better quicker to pick this up than other people doesn't bother me. How do you feel about the quarter, the coin to us? I have one note. Yeah. Perhaps a predictable one. Not okay with Kate hitting lucky during the practice. during the practice round.

Twas a mere boink. I am not okay with a mere boink of my beloved pizza dog. Protect pizza dog at all costs. Keep him out of harm's way. That's my note. Other than that, I was fine with it. A light ping.

One last thing I want to say about this montage, which was delightful. I loved one of her decorating the tree. That was just so sweet. Very, very sweet. Hopefully Eleanor has reinstated a case credit card. because she not only bought all these supplies,

but she also promised the LARPERS a lot of material. We'll get to that in a second. But when she's brainstorming with the non-dry erase markers, she writes TSM. And in the closing credits, Alan Seppinwell pointed out to me, in the closing credits, they style track suit mafia

as track, space, suit, space, mafia. I have a massive problem with this. Oh, my goodness. It might be time to bring back our copy lead, Craig Gaines for an old ringer classic copy corner. Track suit is one word. I don't think Greg would approve of that at all. Oh, boy.

Craig, come on ring or worse. It's the TM, not the TSM. I'm just saying. Kate, closing credits, get it together. Boy. Joanna, I slacked you late last night that while parsing this scene for clues, you know, these settings, the Bishop Pennhouse, Moyer's apartment, there are so many rich set design elements where you're looking for clues.

Of course, this is a sequence where Clint is, guzzling from a Thanos was right mug which not our first Thanos was right we had the iconic urinal moment at the musical but a couple things about that

one that mug the Thanos was right logo on it was blurred if you go back to the trailer you see Clint like lifting the purple mug but the words are not visible so they had removed that element from the trailer so it would be a delight

a little surprise for us here Moira also Clint is drinking coffee from the Thanos was right mug the next morning, so I'm like, did they do dishes? Or is Moira just a cupboard full of Thanos's right mugs? Like a whole set? She a big Thanos head? But so that's one question.

Is Moira pro Thanos? Or is this like a weird joke? And also, I sent you this note last night that I believed, genuinely believed that I had spotted a picture or poster of Doc Ack holding Spider-Man in his tentacles. and zoomed in, you know, to freeze frame screenshots, and then in a later shot from a slight, this ever so slightly different angle realized that it was a plant in front of a window.

So I think that's where I am. That's where I am. And went to bed. That's where I am. You had to reach the bottom of the frozen margarita barrel, which was blue. I don't know whatever color I would drink last. Probably, no, probably green.

Because as I was talking to Jomey about earlier, green is a real wild card in the colored frozen beverage market. Is it lime? Yeah, it's got to just be like a lime margarita, right? No? It was a very dark, it wasn't a lime green. It was like a dark green apple green. I'm worried it was a green apple.

We'll have to go back and look at the labels and just go to the daly's site and see what all of their offerings are to confirm. It's a real brand. It's a thing. We can check. It's true. Should we talk about the LARPERS for a minute? Let's do it.

We had a couple LARPER moments in the, this episode. I was delighted to see the LARPERS again. I expanding this like found family idea, bringing more people into the partnership into the fold here for Kate. I mean, this is part of the adventure. This is exciting. This is natural meeting people introducing herself so proudly as Hawkeye's partner and best friend that killed me. For Clint, who keeps reminding Kate and us that he's supposed to be a ghost. It's like a real kind of trustful exercise, you know, bringing them back to the apartment, letting them in, to their lives in this way, not only just out of necessity, right?

We need to recover the trick arrows. Help us out, bombshell. Bombshell, boy, there's some comic villain ties here with Wendy Conrad, bombshell. That, again, I don't think there's time to unspool in this show. I'd just be a fun little Easter egg, but that was interesting. This made me so, so nervous for grills to return to our grills talking point. Not only just because he's in the story again, but, you know, it's like this is very much like all hanging out at the brownstone grills making food for everyone. Comics vibes, right?

And we know how that went. So I am concerned. Well, okay. So I promised you that if he showed back up, yeah, which was your prediction, that I would join you on the worry train. But you're not there. I'm lying. I lied to you because I'm not, here's, here's a deal. If this show in the next two episodes kills Grills, a nice larker who Clint has actively

roped into all of this, the reckoning with that, the guilt of that will not fit into all that they have to do in the last two hours of this show, I think. I just don't think grills is enough of an established. character plus too much of an innocent for him to just be bumped off before all this is done. I actually think they're just here, as we find out in this episode, I think they're just here to make costumes. That's their function. Do you remember in the episode one and two pod, I mentioned that I thought one of the art hangings

in Eleanor's penthouse looked like the same pattern as the, as Moira's pantsuit that Kate was wearing? I can't shake that. because it's so visible in these sequences in the penhouse again in this episode. It looks really similar. And my worry is that Eleanor or Jack,

most likely Eleanor is going to piece that together, realize that that's where Kate's staying, go there to find them, and we will get an equivalent of the clown showing up at the Brownstone and bad things unfolding to innocent bystanders at the place where Clint and Kate

have been posting up. But also that's ridiculous. As I say that, it makes no sense because like, Eleanor runs Bishop's security. She can find anyone right away if she needs to. I was thinking about this because I'm like, okay, girls dies in the fraction comics.

Sorry, spoilers for the fraction fraction comics. But like, he dies in the comics, and those comics managed to be zippy and funny. So how do I feel about those two tones hanging out together? And I think what's true is just with this Disney Plus show, like the tone is not that tone. Lucky doesn't get hit with a car. Kate saves Lucky, you know, before he gets hit with a car.

And that's what I think. is the equivalent here. It's like, lucky being hit with a car at the beginning of the Fraction Comics and being saved by Kate at the beginning of the show. Grills dying in the comics versus Grills, maybe being put in peril at some point, but not actually killed. I don't know. We'll see. If I'm wrong, I mean, if you and I want to do a girls, a girl's bet, we can. No, I want to be wrong, to be clear. Badly want to be wrong. These LARPers are just here to make new costumes for Kate and Clint. we've seen these costumes in the promo photos in the trailer.

It's what they're wearing on the ice rink below 30 Rock. I don't love them. I like Kate's a lot. I think Clint's looks a little silly, honestly. Black and purple. This is like the Ravens getting ready for a Monday night football game. There's a lot of- Sign me up for some merch.

There's a lot of Spanics involved. Maybe some flak suit material on their vest. But this phase is by the LARPERS, who again, I have nothing but respect for being able to deliver actual superhero caliber in a day. Ready for battle. I also have outfits here. But on par with my persnickety TSM point of order. I actually called a LARPA last night to ask them about this. I believe LARPers call the clothing they wear garb, not costumes.

They kept referring to them as costumes. I believe LARPers say garb. That is what I've been told. If you're a LARP and you disagree, please let me know. Garb or costumes, however you want to put it, takes a long time to make, especially whatever the F it is, Kate and Clint are wearing. Yeah. And we're on the Christmas clock. There's only so much time to work with.

It is two days old Christmas. Yeah. So, you know, unless all the LARPers are working around the clock, I don't fully buy this. But that's okay. I can put that away. Also, what happened to the cop who called Kate an episode two? Well, we get two reminders in this episode because he's in the previously on. So it's brought back to our attention in that respect.

And then one of the things that she writes on the non-dry erase board is the cop. And she says that they need to deal with getting the cops off her back. So we wouldn't have been reminded of that twice if it wasn't going to come into play at some point. You lost your family in the blip? Yeah. That cop the world. That must have been devastating. Is that where you met the Ronan?

It's you, isn't it? Everybody dealt with a blip in their own way. Two of the kind of emotional heartbeats of the exchange between Kate and Clint across the episode. There's the Ronan reveal, which we talked about a bit earlier. I want to hear how you thought Kate

processed that and what that might mean. And also, again, that not only Natasha specifically in terms of what she means and that partnership meant to Clint, but the return of this lesson because Clint says here to Kate, it's all right. When you do what I do for a living, it's just a game of managing loss, right? And my read on this and this scene was that when he has said things to her before, when he has in the diner talked about the price that this kind of

life comes with, you know, what it costs. It didn't register because the thrill of it and the draw that was just paramount. I thought Kate got it here and it struck because she saw, really, really saw the anguish that was still defining Clint's life because of this loss. And so you have these elements that play together where Kate really wants to be partners. Clint is still processing and his life is still defined by the partner he lost. And so these things are not, these things are inextricable, right? Any bond and relationship that Kate and Clint are building together, like, and what ultimately happens on the rooftop with the Voramir flashbacks when Yelena tosses Kate over the edge and Clint is saying,

no, no, no, no, no, and running and looking down at her. And we're getting similar score notes and the, in the music, everything, right? There's the plot element of Eleanor having told Clint earlier, like, look what happened to Natasha. Don't let that happen to Kate. But what really, really breaks through is just his own pain and the fact that he he cannot let that happen again. He can't be, he can't be standing by while somebody else suffers or is hurt or dies in any way next to or because of him. And yet he's constantly talking about how that loss is inevitable and the reality of this kind of life. So that's just a really fascinating interplay of, of their deeply held beliefs and convictions.

And for Kate, what is all, of course, definitionally, unfolding in real time because she has never experienced this before. I agree and disagree with you. I mean, it's hugely emotional, and a lot of what you said is true, but I actually don't think Kate gets it yet. And I don't think she'll get it

until she experiences whatever personal loss she might experience around her mom. Like, whatever that happens when she feels that costs, because I think what we're supposed to take from the Maya's apartment, roof fight, all of that stuff, is Kate still treating this like a fun game? Even when she gets thrown off the roof, she gets cut, you know, like, Clint cuts the line and tells her to leave.

She's like, no, this is, well, I'm still in the game. Like, she's frustrated. She's like, how dare you? I'm still in this game. She's treating it like a game. He points out her childish reaction when she just zips across the street. she hasn't learned that big lesson yet for herself. And I think she's going to before...

Yeah. I agree with you about her going into the apartment in the first place in that whole exchange, which was very amusing. To me, her going back up after is like, I'm not going to leave my partner behind and understanding that something terrible actually could happen. But I think you're right that there's... It's not like a light switch, right?

You don't just turn it on her off. I think that she saw in that moment when Clint was sharing that to her with her. how deeply and earnestly that had affected him and what that really looks like when you see that pain playing out on somebody's face. You know, the tears in his eyes. He can't look at her, right?

He's looking off to the side, looks back ahead, but his eyes are downcast. Ultimately, somebody else's pain and experience will never be your own. And it doesn't even have to come in the form of death, right? There's some sort of loss of innocence that inevitably unfolds for everybody. And for Kate, presumably,

that will be whatever she ends up learning about her mother, right? And we still have to talk about Yelena more. We still have to talk about Nix. Eleanor and Jack in that whole sequence. But let's maybe hit, since we're on the rooftop here, let's hit Yelina because the instant payoff of Clint and Kate having discussed the shot he didn't take is that we get the main.

moment here where Kate comes up, she has Yelena in her crosshairs. She has drawn and she could take the shot and she doesn't, right? And Yelena turns and she gives her that little shake of her head. Clint has pulled her mask off at this point. And maybe there will be another shot that Kate doesn't take that is also a crucial part of her origin story at some point. But we did get this moment right here right now where another Hawkeye,

has a moment with another Black Widow that could end up being really foundational to who they are. And I thought that was that was pretty neat. How did you feel about Yelena in general, though?

This was just the first taste. The action was really cool. We don't hear Florence Pugh speak, which is pretty weird. I feel, I hate to be so contrary to you in this episode, but I disagree that the action was great.

I thought this was really bad action for the MCO. I thought, like, the moose were good. I thought it was shot really poor. It was hard to follow. Yeah. And there was a lot of green screen work, which is understandable because, you know, you're ziplining, you're trying to show.

But, like, a lot of green screen work that didn't feel like the lighting was done accurately. Like, there's shots of Florence Pew on a background where I'm just like, this looks not MCU caliber to me. I don't know how to... I think that's kind of been true of the action in the show in general. Like, I thought the KB Toys fight was very much like that. That's so interesting because I thought the action last week was phenomenal. I thought the action the first two episodes was kind of sloppy.

I thought the action last week was phenomenal. And then I feel like we're kind of back to sloppy nighttime fighting. I was just delighted to see Elena here. But I agree about the choreography of it. I'm also excited to see Elena here. I just. And I did a kicking and doing the air kick to bring Kate down off of the wire was the woof, what a move.

Good old Yelena. But I got the widow bites. Yeah, the widow bites, the posing. Like all of that stuff was great. I just wish that it had been done with a little bit more clarity. And I have to wonder if, like, maybe part of it, a lot of time when they shoot in the volume, when they do the, like, major green screen fighting, part of that might be to keep a secret. And I know that they want to, like, keep, you know, they shot a lot on the streets of New York with Haley and Clint, Haley and Jeremy, sorry. But they were trying to keep Florence Pugh's involvement sort of secretive until the end of Black Widow.

So it might have been like part of a secrecy thing. I don't know what it was, but anyway, it didn't look super great to me. However, I am thrilled the Elena's here. Love Florence Pugh. Love that connection that you're talking about in terms of a new generation of a hot guy, a new generation of a Black Widow, the possibility for their dynamic going forward. Yeah, it's exciting. So exciting.

They're just two of the best new character introductions from so long. It's so fun to think about. Yeah, yeah. There's a trailer or like a mini teaser off. If you go to the Marvel YouTube page, you can see it. It's called Enemies. And it's very short. And some of the footage in it is stuff we've already seen,

but there's a lot that we haven't seen in the season trailers. Now that we've, now that Yelina has entered the show, there's a lot of Yelina in this brief snapshot. So it seems reasonable to assume she will be in the remaining two episodes or at least one of them quite a bit. I think next week is going to be definitely a Yelina episode. The question is, and this brings us to the next thing we have to talk about in the very little time we have left.

But the, like, why is Yelina there? We know she's there because of the end of. Black Widow. But the question is, like, who triggered that hit? Like, basically, she's working as a hitman for Val. So who triggered that hit? I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if the phone call that Eleanor makes in this episode is what triggers that hit.

I do have some logistical questions around it, but, like, if Eleanor called either Val directly or Wilson Fisk, if he's her boss, and said, hey, can you do something? this Avenger who I asked specifically to drop this case. He says he will not drop this case. Let us take it. He's also putting my daughter in danger. Let us take him out. The fact that Yelena was so careful to protect Kate in this fight might mean that her instructions are like, go get Clint.

If you see a 22-year-old brunette with a ponytail, make sure to put a line on her belt before you toss her over the side of the building. Yeah. Yeah, like do all that. Yeah. But my only question around all of this is in the, in the stinger, the postcardist stinger for Black Widow, when Val, played by Julia Louis Dreyfus, shows. I don't know. I know. I mean, you know, like, basically he's what she says.

But like he's, you know, he's like get vengeance for your sister sort of thing. He's in the Ronina outfit. So if Clint's. If Prince Ronan identity is secret, I mean, Val at least knows. And if Val knows. This is a great, great, great point. Who else knows? You know?

So I... That gets, that's a really good point. And it also gets into the timeline questions here, because we don't know when exactly the Black Widow Stinger is set. And I think I definitely am in the Eleanor called Val camp. I mean, maybe, yes. could be Fisk or someone else who maybe these characters are all connected,

but after Clint finally leaves, we get this sequence where Eleanor makes this phone call. We see her like looking up, you know, vibes of I have to make sure no one overhears me here. It's Eleanor. Could you call me back, please? It's urgent. So my question is,

like my first thought was, okay, well, did she call Val? Could she have called Yelena directly? Is that a possibility more likely? Did she call Val and ask for? what then becomes the Elena situation, and I was thinking it was like separate for a second from what we had seen in the Stinger,

but maybe the Stinger is the result of this. Maybe this phone call is what incites the Stinger, right? And so this is, you know, it's all like you're processing this stuff in real time, right? And that becomes, I think, the clear conclusion that what we saw in the Black Widow Stinger happened after and in fact is a direct result of this phone call. But if Val knows that he's Ronan,

you know, would she tell Eleanor, would she tell Fisk? Or is it just privileged information she has because she's got connections to like Avengers Shield, et cetera, you know? I think it will probably come up immediately in whatever, whatever conversation Yelena and Clint have where this is all, I would like to think eventually they will come to an understanding about the truth of it all. I'm sure they will. But based on, again, that enemy's little trailer snippet, Yelina is going to be trying to kill Clint for at least a little while longer. That's not going to end immediately. And so if she says, hey, you're Ronan.

She could put that out there to attempt to jeopardize, you know, his safety. And maybe, again, what are all of the connections here? Because learning that Jack is the CEO of Sloan, and we can talk now for another minute about Eleanor and Jack and everything that unfolded with them in this episode. Like, the track suits could be a pawn here for Yelena and Val and everybody else, too. Like, whether these groups are all directly connected remains a mystery or to what extent. their connected remains a mystery. But the Ronan thing is something that could be weaponized very quickly to bring Maya and the

tracksuits and others toward targeting Clint. Though interestingly, Maya and Yelena were fighting against each other on the rooftop. There was no like the enemy of the enemy as my friend thing here because Maya's chasing information and clarity, not just a body. That's a great point. I love that. The last thing I want to say, and then I definitely want to talk about Jack, is dancing. Does somebody say party?

The last thing I want to say about the way that that rooftop fight, the action doesn't satisfy me, is Maya and Yelina both running away in a way that, like, Maya kind of sense because she got shot and shocked. So Maya's like, listen, I want to regroup and come back. Maybe Maya makes sense to me. But Yelena leaving, I'm like, that just feels like plot, you know, plot mechanics, not like there's no reason for her to jump off that roof. Let's talk about Jack. I was okay. So last week's episode, I was like, oh, okay. So Jack's going to reveal himself.

There's going to be a big fight, blah, blah. I am now back on the train of Jack is pure, all red herring all the time. This is just a dummy, a rich dummy, a rich handsome dummy who loves swords. That's it. That's what I think he is. I would like to take it a step further and ask you, is it possible that he is actually the dream man? Oh, yeah. Notices that a headache is coming on.

Sure. Offers up a caffeinated beverage, a soothing caffeinated beverage, a nice tea. There's a dance. There's a serenade. Off-key serenade. Love it. Some smooches. Some laughter.

I think that the, I'm with you. I still think that the Jack will ultimately be a red herring. I think there's a chance at least. The furthest I'm willing to go is that he could be maybe a pawn, that he could know what he is involved in, but ultimately just be Eleanor's pawn. I think there's a chance so that he just has no idea that what he's involved in, right? And he's like, or is just a complete patsy. I like the idea.

I think he's a patsy. I like the idea that Eleanor is using his name on the shell company. And maybe that's what Armand was pissed about. Armand finds out that, you know, Jack's name is being used on this. And he's like, enough. Enough with your bullshit, Eleanor. Don't rope my dumb, my dumb sort officionado. you know, relative into this.

They would be setting that up to land really potently if that's what happens because I, a sap and a sucker, I was just smitten watching these two in this episode. And not so much to be clear because of their interaction with each other necessarily, though I did I do think they have like

just electric chemistry. But I was so genuinely like, touched watching Kate watch Eleanor. And I think some of this is a little bit of my child of divorce glasses that I have on when I watch these things, right? But like, you know, there's that moment in your life where you realize that your parents are people, right? And they have like desires and their own lives and their own wants and needs and things that make them happy and things that make them sad. And I thought that, again, to credit Haley's performance, there was so much playing out on her face because she wants to hate this guy. She doesn't trust this guy. But she also can't help

but feel happy. Can't help but feel happy to see that her mother looks happy because that's, of course, the thing that she wants most in the world is for her mom to be happy. There was also that just like little bit of embarrassment, you know, mixed in, like watching a thing that you don't necessarily feel like you should see. And it was just great. I just love. I just love. that entire chestnuts roasting on an open fire scene. It was great. I did too. I did too.

Again, this is the personal cost. If Eleanor in her exposure loses this, like, nice, sore dummy that she is met and genuinely makes her happy, that's a cost for her. I think Kate's look here is supposed to show how much she loves and cares about her mother's well-being. Like, all of that matters. So I love this sequence. But I don't know if Tony Dalton's trying to be British to match Simon Callow's

accent, but like, his accent is confounding to me. I'm not mad about it, but like, party is like something a human says. Potty and dancing. Dant. Tremendous. Tremendous. Tremendous. Truly tremendous line reads. So we can say now, of course, definitively now that Clint and Jack have interacted that we will not be getting any equivalent of their comics history. I don't think so. Sortsman teaching Clint, that's officially off the books. And it feels like one, you know, one more example of something where an element has switched between the characters. Jack is part of Kate's story now, not Clint's, etc.

Eleanor's face. Let's run through some of the Eleanor's suspicions here, some of the clues before we move on to some of our other rapid fire elements today. When she first sees Clint, she looks spooked, panicked, not happy at all. to see an Avenger in her living room.

She says, what the hell is going on? Why is there an Avenger in my dining room? Dining room, excuse me, not living room. But just that very, very, very, very first, like, reflexive physical response I thought was telling. Then if you look at some of the language, she asks working on a case together and seems alarmed. Now, of course, that alarm could just be the alarm

that she feels for her daughter and her daughter's safety, which is something that she says many times across these conversations. But there's a specific emphasis on the case as opposed to just Kate being out there doing things that feels deliberate and notable, right? So Kate is helping you with an Avengers level threat? Well, not exactly, but you are working together? Yes. Also, Eleanor gets that alert that someone was using her laptop to sign into Bishop's security 10 minutes prior. She, of course, realizes that it's Kate. Presumably, she will be able to figure out exactly what they, or already has figured out exactly

what they looked up and know that there, if she is involved in this in the way that we suspect, like, mere moves away from uncovering her role. Now, is that what led her to make the phone call or is just Clint's involvement of this

what led her to make the phone call? All of this, I think, has to surface very, very soon. Everyone is just like one reveal away from piecing it all together. I thought also that something felt telling about the conversation at the table, the way she says, okay, and looks at Jack, and then says, I guess I'm just going to have to trust everyone at this table to do what's right.

I think it's possible that Jack is full red herring, but to the possibility that he's involved, but not the ringleader, even though he does just seem so sweet. That, I was like, is she, is that a coded message to him? Like, is she trying to communicate something to him about what he should be doing here? I don't know. And then, of course, there was that conversation at the elevator with Clint, bringing up Nat, bringing up his kids. She keeps focusing on Kate and her concern for her daughter, you know, I cannot lose Kate. But her framing ultimately, her focus ultimately, she cares as a bother, I'm sure, is about the case. So you'll forget this case. That is specifically what she says to Clint. So you'll forget this case. And then there's the phone call. That is just a lot.

I mean, those aren't even clues at this point. This is just a mountain of evidence. Yeah. And I mean, we've had our eyeball in her from the start for various colors. coding reasons or whatever. But I do think it's, I do think it's smart that if someone's not watching this show as obsessively, if someone's more casual watching this show and they haven't read the comics and they don't know anything, I think VRF Armiga's performance in the way that this is written is really clever masking. I mean, because I know people who watch Wanda Vision and had no idea that Agnes might be the villain, whereas like those of us who read the comics were like, clearly she's Agatha Harkness from the start of Wanda Vision. But if you don't know

that, Catherine Hahn's performance in that show is, like, is really good cover of the, like, campy line ratings and all that sort of stuff. And I think the way that this is written as masked by concern for Kate, which, as you said earlier in the episode, is very real concern for Eleanor. But it's also helpful cover. But it's also if you're watching the show and you don't know when you haven't been listening to our podcast or The Midnight Boys or whatever, maybe you'll be completely surprised by the Eleanor reveal and that's, you know, what an exciting twist waiting for those people. Yeah. It's going to be a tough one for Kate, I think, worried about her. Any other Eleanor Jack thoughts or is it time to pop a hand into our old Easter egg basket? I think we got to go

Easter egg hunting right now. We've talked about a lot of them already. Any favorites beyond the ones that we've already mentioned that you just want to call out here? Oh, yeah. Lightning Bolt. When the LARPERS, when we first hear the LARPERS in the park and they're doing their things in the background, some guy goes lightning bolt, which is a reference to like a really famous YouTube video about LARPERS. So I just, I felt like that was some good LARPROR in the mix there. How about you? Oh, boy. I mean, we already, you know, boomerang arrows we already talked about. I liked also the conversation about splitting an arrow with a second arrow. And you got to start with, because that calls back to one of the early comic moments between Kate and Clint that I really love.

And even just, you know, Clint saying I was a weapon and talking about the way that he was a weapon for other people to point makes you think of my life as a weapon, the subtitle for the comic. And I liked all of that. Do you think there are any clues to parse from the board games that he suggests playing? He mentions risk, Yatsy and Shritego. It could be wrong. But again, because I zagged, I betrayed my own initial instincts last week, I just, I'm going firmly back to, I'm just going to keep calling him sword, done. I think that's who he is. I think he's just like, he wants to be a dad. He wants to play board games and bring tea to his, you know, hot, hot new wife. What did you think of his hexagon bee mugs? Some chatter about this online this week. Didn't make you think of the hex and the beekeeper in Wanda Vision? You love that stuff. It didn't. But like I, you put a beautiful screen grab in here. On the caffeine and beverage front, I do just want to shout out that Clint is like,

anytime that Clint mentions coffee or makes coffee, that feels like a nod to the fraction of comics where in which his Clint just like drinks directly from the pot, he loves coffee so much. It always seems very unsafe when he does that. Kingpin Corner, favorite current theories. I mean, this was the entire conversation centered around theories with Laura and the watch and Eleanor's phone call

and the Ronan of it all. What that we haven't hit already? Do you want to quickly call out here? You mentioned the Ronan fight footage that we get. Yes, in Clint's pre-falling-asleep memory montage. We see something new. And you did a screen grab of the stunt double they put in the Ronan suit. And you're like, that doesn't look like Jeremy Renner.

And I agree with you. I almost wonder, I was looking for any evidence of this in an interview. I seem to remember that they might have said that they were going to use some cut endgame footage in this. And so I almost wonder if this is like Mexico cartel. Right, the cartel sequence that Rody mentions to Nat.

That was my first thought. But if it's something new and something connected to what we'll learn in the next two episodes, I'm you know, I'm all for it. But it was an interesting sequence. It's footage we've never seen of Ronan fighting some people. I wondered, of course, if there's like going to be a

track suit connection here. Don't see a lot of you know, cranberry red track suit. signifiers in this imagery, but there is like a van. So, you know, who knows? Maybe trust a bro was involved in some way. Anything else we've talked about almost all of these, I think. Yeah, I mean, the Bishop Christmas Party, the question of whether or not we're going, I'm of two minds about the Barton Farm thing.

If the actions come to the Barton Farm, do I want it? I'm not sure I do. Could it be fun, home alone vibes? maybe, but the danger feels too real, worse than the wet bandit sort of thing. And maybe I just want to keep the Barton Farm preserved in amber as a place where no violence comes

and Kate and Clint can go to, though I'm a little worried about Kate making it to the ugly sweater party because when you put, they put ugly sweaters on in this episode. And I feel like that should have been a real save to the end. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see.

I think that if Kate does make it to the Barton Farm, we can count on her to express that mayo does not belong on a hot dog. So, just holding on to that. All right. Secrets Squirrel Watch. Strong contenders in this episode, Joe. Some amazing ones. I'm really excited for my pick. I'm going to go first.

I almost cracked a rib laughing when you put this screenshot in the dock. I was dying. So funny. My nominee for Secret Scroll is the poor beret wearing man in the elevator who just wanted to get his kale back to his apartment. And Kate is a total nut job in the elevator next to him. Anyway, so beret guy, Burray guy, Secret Scroll. What about you? Unbelievable.

I love it. I'm going with, I'm on high LARP, Burr alert here in general with Secret Scroll Watch. But I'm going with Officer Wendy Conrad, Ellspath of Deepdale. Again, this is a comics character. We got the bombshell mentioned with the bag that she handed over the arrows in, reluctantly handed over. Is it just a fun little moment to talk about whether the fact that she's Wendy Conrad is going to matter in the story and she'll take on a bigger role? Perhaps, maybe. The bag exchange was so awkward.

Not just awkward for the characters, but I just felt like it felt like an Easter egg that they wanted to do that just didn't. This is why I'm on a secret scroll watch because it's like maybe this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, thing we should be on, like, what's going on here alert for? So, who knows? All right. Time to pull some mailbag questions out of the quiver. Jomey. It's mailback time.

Jome a dinner on. I am here. I'm locked in. If I'm grabbing a dream with an Avenger, it's Iron Man 1, Robert Downey Jr. Like, he's got the great stuff, top self. The topest of self stuff. I love it.

That's what I'm looking for. All right, our first question comes from Courtney. Courtney asks, what would your go-to MCU ugly Christmas sweater be for the Avengers holiday party? Mals, yours is so good. Your answer for this is so good that I was like, why even bother Joanna? But I want to hear, tell the people what you came up with here. Here's what I'm envisioning. And I'm actually considering asking my stepmom, who is an incredibly gifted bidder,

if she might be willing to whip this up for me. now I want it. Lalfi and the Frost Giants dressed up as Frosty the Snowman on Yotenheim. That's what I want. Exquisite. On my holiday sweater. And plus it's like it's a blue and white so it kind of works with like a Hanukkah theme. Exactly. Did you catch the Minora in Moyers apartment? I did. I did see Moira's Minora. That's a tongue twister. For me

the best I could come up with, because I can't match what you came up with, best I could come up with was Wanda and Vision in like a snow globe that's kind of hexy. So they're like in the globe. I love that. That's good. And there's like a hex sort of pattern around it. That's my one. That's my sweater. That's awesome. That's awesome. I was thinking like a sleigh, but instead of reindeer, it's all the Avengers pet, pet Avengers, goose, lockjaw, pizza dog. Love it. Love it. It'd be really nice. Thank you so much for putting the obligatory pet Avengers. mentioned into this episode. We almost made it with that one.

So, Jeremy, I appreciate you. I mean, we have a quota. Either week, it's either Pet Avengers or Young Avengers. Gotta have one each week. What about Young Pet Avengers? Okay. Our next question comes from Lauren. If you have to spend Christmas or a different holiday of your choosing,

with one of our current villains, who would you choose and why? Lauren's going with Yelena because she's guaranteed booze and a dog. Great one. Joe, who are you picking? I think we might have the same pick here. I don't know if he counts, but if Jack counts as a, if Jack Chucaine counts, I'm playing board games. It's a party. We're dancing. There will be tea. I want to hang out with Jack. What do you say? If we're containing it to this show, then I completely agree. And until he is eliminated as a villain definitively, he's on the suspicion list for Kate.

that means he's eligible for the question. The snacks, the music, the libations. What a wonderful way to spend an evening. I know that if I need a monogrammed butterscotch, I'll have one right there in his pocket waiting for me. If we need a little exercise, we can fence in the foyer. Love it, love it. It'll be a blast.

I'm not the biggest fan of butterscotch, but I got to go with him too. Yeah. He just seems like a cool dude. We could dance in the foyer. Boy, if we wanted to. All right, our last question comes from Chris. Chris wants to know

what movies are you bringing to your Marathon movie night? So I assumed that this was about Christmas movies specifically, right? Given the context. Yeah. Here's my list. Love it.

I stand behind it with pride. Okay. Love actually. Correct. A movie I adore. So we'll shock no one. want to hear a long time holiday tradition for me in college and in a few of the years after to watch that every holiday season. I've lapsed. I need to tap back into that. Home alone, obviously.

I'm going to go on a run here of picks from my youth. Miracle on 34th Street, the 94 version, which I have not seen in literally decades, but used to watch routinely when I was a child. You're a famous Mara Wilson fan. I know, I know this about you. And from the animated department. You got to have Frosty, the Snowman. You got to have Rudolph. They're classics, and I would bring them anywhere happily. And then, of course, got to throw out Die Hard. I'm going to pick up your Die Hard. So these are movies I genuinely watch every year at the holidays. These are, this is all true. They watch It's a Wonderful Life in this episode, and there's that great shot of George Bailey coming home to his kids and Clint thinking about his kids,

a great shot. I watch It's a Wonderful Life every year. But the rest of my films are not really Anyway, die hard also. I agree. I watch it every year. I'm going to a Christmas party on Saturday. We're watching Die Hard. Catch me if you can, which is a Christmas movie. And I will hear no other arguments.

If you want to hear me talk about that. More, I'm on the Big Picture podcast this week talking about Spielberg movies and that movie in particular as a Christmas movie. You could hear me talk about that. Lord of the Rings, the Extended Edition. I watch them every year at the holidays. We're watching them this Sunday, all nearly 12 hours of them. We do it at Thanksgiving. Amazing that with that holiday tradition in both of our households.

It's just separated by mere weeks. I love it. That's great. And Gremlins, also a Christmas movie. This was a Midnight Boys argument this week, whether Gremlin's was a Christmas movie. 100%. It's obviously a Christmas movie. And then White Christmas.

That's my list. I love it. Jomi, you adding anything to our DVD stack here, our Blu-ray stack? Our streaming list. However people watch movies now. days. I watch NBA basketball on Christmas. I mean, we have to watch.

We have NFL games this year on Christmas too. So we'll be busy. It's going to be busy. Ironman 3, you know, underrated film. So, you know, and there's a Christmas tree in it, so it counts. It does. It does. Most Shane Black movies count.

Kiss Kiss, bang, bang counts. Right? Yeah. Tony Stark says, it's Christmas. So it's absolutely Christmas movie. And let's not rehash this argument again. But yeah, got to have Iron Man 3 on the list. but you guys have great picks. This is the perfect movies to watch over the holiday season.

Thanks, Joey. I love it. What a beautiful ringer-verse holiday tradition we're beginning right here. And one of these years when we have time to watch movies together. We'll do that. So I'll see you guys in 2048. Looking forward to it. What a party that will be.

Pottie, dancing. Dancing. All right. We did it. I think we did it. We did. We did. Now we see a gentleman who needs help with the groceries, so that is a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you, as always, to our favorite bros, Steve Allman, for producing this episode, Arjuna Ramgapal, and TD St. Matthew Daniel for their additional production work on this episode. And Joe Miedeneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to follow the ring ofverse on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the ring of verse across our social feeds and head back into the ring of verse next Wednesday for the House of Midnight Hawkeye episode five. team up and next Friday for the Midnight Boys instant reaction to Spider-Man. Until then, just make sure there's plenty of dancing. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming,

Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamava's history. Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly. Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro.

Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. Summer is here, and Ralph's is your destination for hot savings. Find unique items at low prices with a wide assortment of products from our exclusive brands. Fire up the grill with cookout classics like burgers and brots, and don't forget, delicious produce like fresh melons. Or beat the heat with frozen treats while chilling poolside. your summer plans, Ralphs makes it easy to enjoy high-quality, fresh food at affordable prices. Ralph's, serving SoCal for over 150 years.