House of R - Analyzing ‘Hawkeye’ Episodes 1 and 2

Episode Date: November 26, 2021

Mal and Joanna load up their quivers to dive headfirst into the double-episode premiere of the latest MCU limited series, ‘Hawkeye’ (05:44). They break down Marvel’s approach to TV and why it is so unique (22:38) and even touch on the majesty of ‘Rodgers: The Musical’ (72:46). Later Joanna is joined by series showrunner and executive producer Rhys Thomas to talk about bringing the show to life (and even a bit of LARPing) (1:41:29). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Rhys Thomas Producers: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Where is, where is Gate Bishop? I've never met her. I have no idea. Come on. Where is Kate Bishop? Who are you talking about? Bro, I found her. Oh, wow.

I didn't realize you were supposed to bring guns. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Rogers the musical, but to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today to talk about the premiere, the double premiere of Marvel's Hawkeye. Now that her take quiver is full and she's finished. telling me that all surprises are unexpected.

Can't be right, is it? That can't be right. It's my House of Our Working Title. Working Title. Go host, Ringer Senior Staff Writer, Joanna Robinson. Hey, bro. Oh, hello, bro. I just got done agitating some risotto.

And I'm here to tell you that I'm so beyond thrilled. This is our first series, mini-series. We're going to be back every week talking about Hawkeye. This is my favorite thing to do is to like dig in deep to a show week to week. I have never gotten to do it with you. I am so excited. Consider me the eager chaotic Cape Bishop to your seasoned Clint Barton here on the Ringer Network. I'm so thrilled.

Boy, a lot of bandages and slowly thawing out frozen pizzas coming our way, I guess. I can't wait. I can't wait. We have so much to talk about this. season. So much to talk about today. I am overjoyed and hyped, but as always, quickly, a few programming reminders before we dive in. Make sure your holiday sweaters are on and your gingerbread houses are built and ready to fuel your listening and you're reading because we have a lot coming for you. We have a lot of pods coming. The Midnight Boys, Dan and Charles, peopoo. We'll be back

next Wednesday with their instant reaction pod on Hawkeye episode three. And then, and I will be back with you next Friday for our Hawkeye episode three deep dive. The mid-season deep dive next week already somehow. Shocking stuff. Wild. Wild. Wild tournament events. What is time.

We also have a ton up for you and coming for you on the Hawkeye front on the ringer.com. What a great website. Joe has a wonderful Hawkeye primer piece up on the website on Matt Fraction, Seminole Hawkeye Run. Joe also interviewed Matt Fraction. last week on the ringerverse. So check all of that out. If you haven't, it will get you very well positioned

for the season to come. Daniel Chin also has a breakdown of the double-sized Hawkeye premiere and Daniel will be recapping Hawkeye all season long on the ringer.com. We will be potting all season long. There's just a lot coming. There's a lot coming.

It's going to be wonderful. So follow all of that by following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, by following our social feeds. The ringerverse is on Twitter. The ringerverse is on Instagram.

The Ringer Verses on Facebook. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. As always, today's podcast will feature plot details from the first two episodes of the newest phase four MCU Disney Plus show Hawkeye, which premiered this Wednesday on Disney Plus. Two episodes, one and two, both up. We're talking about them both today. You've been warned. We're talking about them both. It will also feature spoilers and discussion of the entire MCU.

run to date. We're going to talk about Marvel Comics canon, particularly the aforementioned fraction, cherished and adored Hawkeye Run. So proceed with more caution than the would-be selfie-taker did when approaching Clint at the Thanos was right urinal. It's not the time. The memorial Thanos's right urinal. Love it. Just remarkable stuff. We have a loaded show for you today. Later on, Joe has a awesome interview coming for you. Joe, tell everybody what is on the docket today. We have a nice long, chewy chat with Reese Thomas, who directed the first two episodes and the finale.

He's the executive producer on the show. And as we get into a little later, he sort of, it's more than just a director is the role he took on this show. So he had a lot of insight. Really, really interesting stuff. We talked about lARPing amongst other things. Stay tuned for that. Stay tuned for that. It's a wonderful and very informative listen.

Before that, we're going to break down the first two episodes. We are going to get right to it. We're just letting it ring through for a second here so that we have your number and then we'll get going. Okay? And we know you're saying emergencies only or you'll delete and block, but got to let it ring through. All right, bro. All right, bro. Let's Bob.

Let's do it. Let's do it. So, Joe, quickly as a table center. Yeah. A take a moose bush. Ooh. Overall impressions, a snapshot of how you felt about these first two episodes before we pan back and then dive in. I love them.

So we've talked before about Marvel TV this year. We've got three examples or four, if you count what if you count what if, before this, right? And for me, it was like, Wanda Vision was the top, then Loki, probably like, what if and then Falcon Winter Soldier. And this gave me, like, Loki Wanda, or top tier for me, this gave me those feelings. I got so excited. I love a holiday thing. So all this soundtrack, the score, all of that made me really happy. And I'm just, I was so, I wasn't even nervous.

I just really wanted this to be good. I wanted us to all have a fun thing to talk about here at the end of this year. And I was really excited. I felt like they really stuck the landing with my girl, Kate Bishop. So I'm hyped. I'm here for it. What about you, Mel? I absolutely loved the first two episodes.

I'm so happy right now. I thought that the second episode was really good, really strong, really engaging. I thought that the premiere was like fantastic. One of the strongest character intros in the MCU. And surprising but also seamless in some of the inversions of our expectation, what went to Kate or Clint and what we maybe were primed to expect based on our comic reading.

I loved the tone. I loved that holiday vibe as well. It feels very contained, very intimate and focused. Something that we chat about a lot is like scale and scope inside of the MCU. And I think it's really fascinating, especially when we consider where we are right now.

now in phase four. One of the things we're going to talk about a lot today is the idea of inheriting or passing or sharing a mantle and just in general how, as we've discussed before, this moment in phase four is very much this bridge phase onboarding and introducing a lot of new characters, but also spending a lot of time with people or remembering people who are very crucial to the infinity saga and our MCU shared history, shared past. But there's also this aspect of the respective scale of this multiverse moment, this vast widening and cracking open of the MCU on the heels of the Loki finale, heading into the multiversal extravaganza that is going to be the next Spider-Man film, which will come out in an overlapping timeline

with the Hawkeye Run. What If was obviously a multiversal story. And the deeply personal and small focus of a show like Hawkeye, to me, doesn't in any way make it feel less essential. It's quite the opposite. It's like a really necessary reminder of why we're so invested in all of these stories in the first place. It can't always just be those intergalactic stakes. You have to look at who the people are and how they live their lives to engage and remember why we care so much. So I just loved the tone. I loved, of course, my guy lucky the pizza dog i'll try not to talk about lucky all episode but but i'm not going to try that word but you will yeah yeah yeah yeah and i loved the comics energy which is what i wanted to ask you

about next you know what what are you bringing into the show as you come to it in terms of your relationship to the story yeah so a massive fraction comic love and i think this this sort of goes back to the point you were just making this idea of scale because uh the premise as as you and I've discussed, as Matt Fraction talked about when he's on the podcast, the premise of that comic is, you know, this is what Clint Barton does when he's not fighting Thanos. The literal logline of the comic. Yeah. And so the fact that this show so far, we've seen a third of it already, right, seems

we've only seen two episodes, yes. Right, but that's a third of what they're going to give us. So, like, is wildly unconcerned with the multiverse, completely unconcerned with all of that So I think it's going to be, I would guess it's going to be completely divorced from all that, but we'll see. But the phrase, and we've talked about this before, but the phrase often associated with this particular fraction comic is street level. And that means just like really down-to-earth action and adventure. And so the fact that you have Clint are least powerful, most breakable Avenger and Kate, who we meet, who also doesn't have superpowers. And they're just scrapping their way through an adventure.

And they don't need to call Thor and they don't need to do anything. They're just like going to scrap their way through it. And that's something that's going to be really exciting to watch. And compliments like Loki hopping through time and space or Wanda, which is a super magical sort of thing. This idea that like any flavor will do for the MCU. And so I'm really excited for that. So yeah, my fraction love is massive. I also like the Kelly Thompson run on Cape Bishop.

So I'm like a big Cape Bishop fan in general. That is something that I bring. And as we've discussed before, also, this is the first MCU project to interact so closely with a comic book story. There are some major differences, especially when it comes to Clint and, like, being a family man versus being a chaotic bachelor in the city sort of thing. But there's so much of the fraction DNA in this that it makes it a really pleasurable. comparison, adaptation. And you and I sort of built our blocks up on talking about Thrones as an adaptation piece. So the fact that there's source material here to talk about, I think we'll just make our conversation

even that much more enjoyable. How about you, what are your fraction feelings? We should say Matt Fraction, Davida Ha, and Annie Wu as the artist, it's important to credit them as well. Yes, absolutely. I just, I love the comic. I mean, it's one of my favorite runs. We are not alone in feeling.

that way. You know, this comic is adored. And you and Charles had a great chat recently in the Fraction Interview episode about why people love this so much. I had the real pleasure of chatting with our guy Andy Greenwald from the Watchpod. Great episode. About this as well. And I think everybody loves different things about the comics, but some of the through lines, the writing and the the art and the overall like formatting, the style, the approach. It is so inventive and so experimental. We have an entire issue, a famous one told from the perspective of our guy, Lucky, the Pizza Dog, ASL is incorporated into the comic, the color, the aesthetic, the color blocking

and coding, which is one of I know your favorite things to track and something you'll be porting over to your assessments of not only these two episodes, but the show as we go, you know, what can we glean from what we're seeing on that front, that log line that we discussed, that idea of this is what, this guy who not only is like a character in these comics, but who crucially might be the butt of your joke, like might be the one you tend to mock or ridicule or say, Hawkeye, he's just a regular guy where that is like embraced as the point. and the reason for spending time with him and paying attention to him.

And so things like the fact that he is constantly covered in bandages and ice bags. And we are reminded of the fact that he is a human being in a world surrounded by superpowered beings. And that that doesn't make him or Kate or any other character who would fall into that mold, any less worthy. It's in many respects the opposite. It's about spending the time looking and recognizing why the choice to stand up and fight and attempt to do something

is worth our time and attention and deserves that focus and accolade. And I think that's why this is such a key story for the Renner MCU Clint because I don't think it's controversial to say that Clint and Renner as Clint is one of the least popular Avengers. And that's okay because I feel like this show acknowledges that

and is here to show you a reason why maybe Clint is worth your love and affection. But I've heard from a lot of people that they weren't excited about this show because they don't really care about Hawkeye. And maybe they've read the comic or maybe they haven't, but they're like, but they're like, renter's Hawkeye. And I'll be really honest with you. Like, I think I like the MCU Hawkeye more than some other people. but Renner's public-facing persona, some things he said in interviews, not a fan of, not a huge fan of myself. So, like, the Renner-Clint feelings that are out there, I completely understand what I love about this show and the way that it premises, like, how do you solve a problem like Jeremy Renner or Jeremy Renner's Clint?

And one thing that we didn't try to do is to like give him this family an Ultron as like a way to really humanize him. But there's also ways in which the MCU sort of put him on ice for movies. He's not in, you know, like some of them to sort of, I think they knew. And I think they were waiting for their moment to say like, okay, now we can sort of try to fix what is happening here and figure out a way to make him a lovable guy, which I think the show, these two episodes successfully do, in my opinion. And not just spending so much time with Kate Bishop, so you're not like drowning in renter if you're not the biggest runner fan.

But I think some choices that they made are here specifically to get you rooting for Clint. And they're just like, we're going to put him on the back foot a lot. I think that was a big hurdle that they had to clear for this show. They'll never say that. Marble will never say that. But it's just the truth of how people feel about this character and this actor. And I think this is an elegant solution. I don't know.

What do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think that the Clint-Kate Bond is the other thing that, or one of the the other things that, you know, I and we and so many people love so much about the comics because it's such a rich and constantly surprising relationship and dynamic. And I was surprised, but in a good way that they don't come together in the show until the very end, you know, the closing final moment of the first episode. I remember back when Falcon was airing and, you know, discussing a lot, like how we wanted Sam and Bucky to be together sooner. And, you know,

and I think in hindsight, toward the end of that season, I felt like I had a better appreciation for why they made that choice early on in the way that show was structured. But here, like, instantly it just feels right because so much of the episode is focused on establishing Kate and establishing her onboarding and introduction into the MCU. And Clint is like, it doesn't doesn't have like, to borrow a Juliet Lippmanism, you know, if we're tracking the TRT, total runtime. Total runtime, yes. Okay, yes, yes.

Like, it's a much more Kate-centric episode. And then by the time they come together and much of the second episode is about, like, establishing what their vibe is going to be together, we already know who Kate is by that point. And their energy with each other in the comic, like the way that she will just constantly call him out on his bullshit, the way that she will, constantly save him and get him out of a scrap, get him out of trouble, the way that they call each other Hawkeye and there's never any question that they would both have that, carry that

Hawkeye mantle and assume the name, the moniker. Like, it connects to that idea, I think, of, you know, you mentioned Ultron, and obviously I think there's a lot that is very flawed about Ultron as a film. One of the moments that I have always liked in that movie is when they're on the Barton Farm and Laura says to Clint, you know, you know, I totally support your avenging. I couldn't be prouder, but I see these guys, these gods, and Clinton interrupts and says, you don't think they need me? And she says, I think they do, which is a lot scarier. And so you take that idea, which is something that is central to how we think about the character of Clint Barton and Hawkeye, then you reinforce it with another character like Kate Bishop as Hawkeye. You reinforce it

through their bond and the way that they're going to help each other understand their respective roles. You compound it with these echoes and ghosts of the past, the lingering effect of the trauma from the infinity saga, Clint's guilt, etc. And then you put it in this not only like Christmas moment and this holiday moment, which gives this show a sense of like being the very deliberately intended as a time and place experience on Disney Plus. And you put it against a clock. You put it against this countdown clock that has this urgency and like propulsive force. And it's just a really successful brew to not only, engage you on a human and character level

for the pair and for them individually and for all of the villains who we're going to talk about obviously as we go today and all of these other figures who are meeting. But to give the show while it is smaller and scale and more street level and its focus, this real sense of like,

you know, we're watching Kevin Costner and draft day and the clock is ticking down and will they draft Bo Callahan, you know? There's the sense that it's like, we only have so much time left. So I thought it was a really effective opening to episodes in many, many respects.

And that energy and that palette from the comic is, of course, not replicated one to one. And some of it is slipped around and some of it is altered entirely. But there's a clear, I think, recognition of what people love about the comic. And from things like Lucky to using the logo, there are all of these recognitions, both in really substantial ways and in like, subtler, quieter ways, hey, we know you love that and we recognize that something magical happened there. We're going to attempt to do what we can to, like, honor and port that spirit over to something that people will hopefully care about a lot here, too. I just want to echo or disagree with you about the ticking clock. Something that I noticed

on the second watch, maybe people notice right away is like in the first episode, we see a whiteboard. I think where I pulled it from was a whiteboard in the kitchen that Kate walks through that says six days until Christmas. And then in episode two, Laura tells Clint he's got five days to get home. You know what I mean? So like, I think they're taking a moment in every episode to remind you of that ticking clock. I think that energy, that like move towards something. And once again, it's a low level, but high level thing for Clint to get to. He wants to get home for Christmas. The reason he's desperate to get home for Christmas, we can get into it in a little bit, but it is tied to something traumatic. But it goes to tone because this is a fun, like this, this, this

show is really assured of its tone from the start. A lot of that, I think, is helped by, you know, Haley Steinfeld, is Kate Bishop. Tony Dalton, as Jack Du Kane, I think, is really carrying a lot of the tone in a really, in a really great way. But I know that Renner has said in interviews that he wanted something darker. Like, he really wanted this, like, dark, Ronan, guilt, fallout thing. And that is just not the show I want. And I think the powers that be made the really right decision to do a six-episode holiday comedy based on a beloved comic, hired a bunch of comedy people to make it. And so we can process some of this darker stuff, but in the wrapping paper or something.

And like, if my big, my biggest complaint about Falcon and the Winter Soldier is that it did not know what tone it was going for at any given time. I think that is my biggest problem with that show. And this just feels like such a smooth, assured tone. This episode is brought to you by Weather Tech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. What is it? What do you want with me? I got to find a place this. stash you safe.

I can recover this suit and clean your mess. Stash me? Not a pack of money. No, you're not. A bag of money to be useful to me. Next. Hi, how are you? Merry Christmas. Can we get into some Marvel process really quickly?

Please. Enlighten us. Yeah. Well, I just, this is something that I'm fascinated by, and I'm kind of writing a book on it, so, like, I'm very fascinated by it. But this idea, Marvel TV is so different from the way we normally talk about TV, because when we normally talk about TV, like when you and I talked about Thrones, we're talking about show runners,

Weiss and Bennoff in that case, and a writer's room, and then visiting directors. Like, that's how TV is usually made unless it's like one director does the entire season that happens sometimes. And we saw that with a lot of the other Marvel shows

with like Kate Heron doing Loki, etc. This one was a little different than usual. And it might indicate some behind-the-scenes tumult, but you don't see it on the screen. So it doesn't matter. Tumalt is Tumol. It doesn't matter. But, like, the series creator listed for this as Jonathan Igla, who is, as Andy pointed out

his conversation with you, known for his work on Mad Men. As far as I can tell from talking to people, the scripts that they got out of the writer's room needed, like, some major overhauling, which is fine. Marvel is constantly revising. But I think if you're looking for, Jonathan wasn't really the touch person after that. So I think you're looking for a creative mind behind this show, like a Waldron. behind Loki or something like that, you want to look to Reese because I think he really did take over the lens of this. He talked to us in our interview about some story beats that were added

and taken away, some writers who were brought on to help improve character depictions and stuff like that. So it just was run a little bit different. Also, every Marvel show, as we know, has like a designated Marvel producer, Nate Moore, you know, was the producer in Falcon the Winter Soldier, a recent ringer-vers guest. Like there's always like a high-ranking producer. In this case, it's Trin Tran, who's done some great work. Has been with Marvel since the beginning, what is as an assistant on Ironman? Like, has just been around and seen some things.

And so, like, this is the creative force behind this. Plus, you've got some consulting producers listed, including Matt Fraction. My friend Jen Robinson, no relation, who wrote this great, who made this great show Sweet Vicious that was on MTV about teenage vigilantes. And Andrew Gess, who's a community writer, and Marvel's really in love with the Dan Harmon writers in this current face.

So this is the, you talk about the brew. This is the creative brew behind this. Bert and Bert and Bertie did directed a couple episodes. These are like comedy people, old school Marvel people, comic people, people with people with experience writing like young women and adventurous fighting young women. I just think it's always interesting to know who to direct your questions to. Do you know what I mean? Like who was the guiding force here?

Yeah, absolutely. That's, I think, really helpful context to keep in mind as we go and, you know, illuminating on the heels of what you were saying a few minutes ago about tone and that comedic lighter tone because I think that not just in this show, hopefully, you know, certainly through two episodes and hopefully through the whole run, but throughout the MCU experience, Marvel at its best has been able to show us and reinforce time and time again that those, the desire to tap into something very poignant and even dark. and the desire to present this lighter, more jovial tone and lean into the levity are not only not mutually exclusive, but in fact ultimately help unlock each other because if something is like so drab and so severe and so grim, it's, I mean, sometimes that can be the very powerful and effective way to present one of these tales, certainly.

but sometimes less so. And, you know, we can cite Thor or the Thor I see evolved over the course of MCU or any number of other examples as really like the Guardians, of course, as really reflective of this, that comedy and that lighter touch, when Thor is weeping to rock it on the way to Native Allier talking about everyone and everything he's lost of what else does he have left to lose or having that exchange with Frigga during the time heist. Those moments that we've spent cackling watching Thor and Loki make that land even harder. And so those dark aspects of Clint's past, what we will eventually

learn about Kate and all of the people in her life, any other character who we meet, echo all of the other figures Kazi all these people we're going to talk about today and through the season their lives

haven't just been sheer bliss but the fact that we can head from Rockefeller Center to look at talking about

looking at the tree or seeing a moment like Kate with her friends can you can you hit the rope in the bell tower

and make it ring like a dare from your friends like these these are just pleasant sheer cheerful things to watch. And then when we see the look on Clint's face

as he's watching Nat on stage in Rogers a musical, like we're, that's a good example because we're like... Exactly. We're laughing. ...the sheer absurdity of Rogers and musical. And then that moment, like,

it hits you so hard because that grief and that loss never goes away. That's still like one of the defining experiences and sensations and feelings of his life and it will be forever, right? Yeah, and I think that the Nat,

Rogers the musical example is exactly the one I was going to bring up, so thank you for reading my mind as always. But I think, and I think Renner is perfect for, I think recited this is an inspiration. You guys can correct me once you listen to the interview, but people are forever citing it as an inspiration for Buddy Cop sort of thing. So Midnight Run is like a classic sort of dynamic, if you've never seen it.

Charles Groton, chaotic force. Robert De Niro, deadpan, frustrated to have to deal with this chaotic force on the road. And slotting Renner into this Robert De Niro, what can we do to tick off Clint for comedy, is a perfect use of his chops because him being grumpy is the joke. And that way, he can flip on a dime from being grumpy about this dumb musical. to being in a traumatic flashback or like being having dinner with his family. And then the waiter comes up and says, the dinner's on us. Thank you for saving our city.

And you remember that Clint is like back at the, at a battleground that he fought. Like he's trying to enjoy New York with his kids. But like he fought a traumatic battle here. You know? And so like those. And again, that's not that is a show so sure of itself that it can just dip into that and dip back out. And I think I think it's a perfect use of all that.

Should talk about how this show looks? Let's do it. Yeah, please. I think it looks beautiful. I want to shout out the costuming specifically. I think it's amazing. Eleanor's incredible wardrobe, Kate's mom, Vera Farminga, just the drip on Vera Farminga. Incredible stuff.

And then, like, stuff that is more cartoony, like Kate's purple tactical suit that she has, they shout it out, they lampshade it. You know, her friends are, like, making fun of her, you know, because she's like this Hawkeye fan boy, so she has this purple tactical suit. But otherwise, she's walking around and like her aunt's, her aunt, this is an Easter egg for comic comic fans, but Moira Brandon is this like figure from the comics is this like old movie star queen who dressed in like silk penwires and stuff like that. So the fact that Kate is walking around, I mean, Haley's just wearing anything and looks

amazing in it. A remarkable pants suit. I think it just looks, I just love the look of it. How do you feel about it? I agree. I mean, there's obviously so much vibrancy. like pops of color because of that holiday setting. Like, you know, you're going to get the lights and you're going to have the snow glistening

and all of those things. And then you have the always handy visual demarcations of the fact that like the tracksuit, Dracula's are literally all wearing track suits. So you see a track suit, you're like, ah, bro, those guys, you know, in the purple and all of these things. I loved, loved, loved the way that Kate had to do. tapped into Moira's wardrobe,

but I also loved little things through the costume design and the visual palette that helped establish her independent spirit and sense of self. Like her mother tells her to go, please go put on the dress that's upstairs for you

before you head to this charity event. And then she shows up in a black tuxedo because like that's what she wants to do. And so that is what she will do. And I was like, fuck yeah. I loved that. It was such a great moment. It conveniently helped her blend in with the waiters,

but also like it was built in a character moment. That was like, but those are the best when they're, Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And to that, to that track suit point, yes. What I love about that is that they like the, the reds are muted. Like the palette is sort of muted the way it is in the comics. They're not like bright cherry red. This isn't like Squid Game. They don't look like they're wearing like bright matching tracksuits and all look exactly the same. They're like kind of dingy, kind of beat up. Some of them are wearing them differently.

Some of them have like a coat over, you know, it's like it just looks correct. Like like people, actually walked around and fought and lived in these in these tracksuits. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And similarly to what you were just noting about Kate's outfit, allowing her to infiltrate the wine seller for the black market auction and how that serves as a plot device as well. So just what you're describing with the tracksuits, because we can deduce, okay, so Kazi is the one in the like camel. The coat. And, you know, Ivan is wearing the darker, the different called the black track suit. And, you know, they're not the only two who have some sort of like visually distinct element to the track suit Dracula uniform, but it is both like an important key, visual key

for us as viewers that allows you to like acclimate more quickly to what you're seeing and who everybody is. And, you know, then the sequence toward the end of episode two where they have Clint, you know, where he pulls a gnat, right? Uh-huh. Catch a release. Yeah. Calling back to an old nap moment, of course.

And when he keeps like, you know, I'm here to speak to your boss. Can I speak to your boss? Can I speak to just like talking to furniture? Is it that guy? And, you know, we've only seen like Kasi's face when he looks up his mask to watch Kate and Lucky go across the street for like, we're talking about mere seconds. But we can see just in the background shot, not only is he moving in a way that is building suspense and intriguing us, you know, moving toward Clint eventually. But he's just wearing something different than the rest of them as he sits there. So all of these things are handled really deftly and allow us to acclimate much more quickly than we otherwise maybe would. Even little things like Armand, it all feels like it's happening so quickly, as we've already discussed with the clock, in a fun way, in a propulsive way, not in a like, oh my God, I'm overwhelmed way. But when you're looking at his corpse, one of the things you notice is that he's changed. He's not wearing his gala outfit anymore.

So, like, I was like, oh, a little more time at least has passed than I thought. Now, it could be mere minutes. The first thing I'll tell you this, the first thing I do when I get home is change. As you know, it's a comfortable wear. So we could be talking about mere moments. But I just thought all of that was quite handy. And then you have moments like the, I think, instantly iconic fencing scene between Jack and Kate, which I loved for 5,000 reasons that we could do an entire pot on.

But even the fact that she just puts on what she needs because she's there to prove a point. And he puts on the entire kit, like every element of it, only to ultimately attempt to play out this farce that he isn't this skilled and doesn't take it that seriously, which eventually sets up the hysterical, well, I did, you know, downplay my skill and then repeatedly lie about it a moment after the parody. Tony, Tony Dalton, chef's kiss. So good. The cast is really, really great. The, I want to talk about color for a second as you. as you alluded to. We're going to talk a little bit more about Eleanor at the end and maybe our thoughts and theories and whatever about it.

Yes, we are. We're watching you, Eleanor. And we got our eyes just like Bishop Security. We have eyes everywhere. But if you want to talk about red in this show, we meet Echo Bades and Red Light. The tracksuits are wearing red. The red light blinks on and off during the like auction fight because, you know, the track suits have entered. And it's a like, it's a security alarm.

but it's a red light flashing on and off. What does Eleanor wear head to toe most of the time? Red. Not just that gorgeous gown, but she's in this full red suit in episode two. So I'm just saying, I got my eyes on her. And red a color famously associated with the Daredevil comics and stuff like that. And Echo may or may not have connections to the Daredevil world going forward. we shall see. But I know that people got excited when they saw on the trailer sort of bathed in that red light because it felt very not to daredevil. So Eleanor in the red. And it was thrilling to get that moment at the end of episode too with Echo and to see that red lighting there. And she, the dress she asked Kate to put on for the auction. She said go on and put on a red dress. And Kate does not put the red dress on. So I'm just, I'm just, I'm just tracking it. That's all.

I love this. Did you think the action looked good? Did you think the fighting looked good? I have some questions. I think some of it was meant, was like intentionally kind of sloppy to show Kate's inexperience. So I kind of liked that it was sloppy. But I talked to someone who thought the action looked really bad compared to other Marvel shows. In any particular sequence, like in the wine cellar or out in the street fight?

Both the wine cellar and the street fight. But again, I feel like it's a character-driven thing. We're supposed to show that Kate. Kate has got a million medals as we find out. But she's never done a street brawl before. You know what I mean? Yes, there's a difference from taking it out from the arena into the world, a little bit of an adjustment period.

It's an interesting question. I guess I hadn't thought about it, honestly, while watching it. I thought that the winds, both sequences, honestly, the auction fight, and even the street fight are a little, I think, intentionally, like deliberately disorienting.

You know, there's fog. The camera's moving around a lot. It's a little hard to get our sense of place. And, you know, I felt that that was

allowing us to experience that, like, sense of disorientation that Kate would be feeling in the moment, but also then to see how inventive she is, not only how skilled she is,

but how inventive she is as a fighter. Like, I'm going to grab onto this pipe hanging out of this. sealing and, you know, bring you down with my sheer force of will and ability. So I liked it. I think the one thing that I remember thinking in real time about the fight choreography, I was like, does this make sense? Was using suddenly the wine bottles as like very sturdy bludgeoning objects while they're also exploding all around them. That was, this is how you know you're at a very fancy auction is when the wine bottles aren't breakaway bottles. They don't smash.

They're solid. But some of them did. That was the thing. I was like, those are the lesser vintages, Mallory. I guess so. I guess so. The good stuff doesn't smash

when you need to hit someone with it. But we should shout out Heidi Money Maker's longtime Black Widow stunt double for doing a lot of the stunt coordination here. There was an aborted attempt at a widow's throw from Kate. And I really like that. She did the old nap move and it didn't really work for her. And I kind of love that about her.

So she's got some things to learn. Let's talk about Kate. Two more things. Very, very quickly on the colorfront before we move on. I just want to say one, wearing purple today, you know. And people can't see us. They're listening, but need everyone to know. Two, we should just mention this.

Typically, throughout the season for future shows, we'll be recording these after they air. After all of you see them, we'll be asking for your mailbag questions. We'll be seeing what your theories are. We'll be seeing what everybody's chatting about. What's trending on Yield, Twitter, etc. This is Thanksgiving week. And so we are banking this episode ahead of the holiday because we watch the screeners for the first two episodes.

So I mention that only because I think as we go today, we're going to talk about a lot of our theories and a lot of the things that presumably many other people are going to be theorizing about and speculating about and buzzing about too. And so in future weeks, we'll be able to incorporate the Internet's take. and the ringer verse versus listeners, mailbag questions and feedback on that front as well, which I am very excited about and know you are too.

It's conversation. That's what I always say. But what I need to know is if anybody saw your face. No. Kept the mask on like a pro. Okay, because the person that wore this suit made a whole lot of enemies. All right, and the tracksuits are just one of them.

That doesn't sound good. You told nobody about this suit? No. There's no way you're connected to the suit whatsoever. That's right. I need you to be sure. I am. Certain.

Yes. The trackswists must have followed you from the auction to where I found you. Did you stop anywhere before that? I just dropped off the dog. And my name's on the buzzer. This is an incredible introduction for a character. On par, I think, with Yelena's intro and Black Widow, both really excellent introductions of new blood into the franchise.

We've had some strong ones lately. This is excellent, and Haley Steinfeld is tremendous. I agree about Yelena. Obviously, Jonathan Majors as King. We're on a good role here with new character intros. This was awesome. But I think what's so interesting about thinking about how Kate is introduced here is, I know, you know, having talked to some people,

that they did like drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts on Kate specifically. Reese is going to talk about it a little bit in our interview. that they really wanted to make sure that they nailed this character. They really wanted to make sure that she was like, she was poking at Clint in a way that we thought was like fun and funny and not obnoxious. There are some things they did that I feel like they were worried a little too much about maybe some shitty fanboys. I feel like there's a little too much effort to make sure we know that she came by her skill set honestly because of, you know, the frustrating sometimes conversation normally.

around I hate the phrase Mary Sue, but like this idea that like Ray and Star Wars or whatever shouldn't be as skilled as she is. And they're like, well, let's, let's show you, constantly show you her trophies, her medals, let's talk about her championships. Let's show a photo of her rock climbing with her dad. So later you're not like, how does she know how to scale a build? You know, like all this sort of stuff like that in a way that I found like just a little too much, but not in a way that gotten like gotten the way of my good time. But a way where I was like, you could have dialed this back 10%. And I think I think we would have. been fine. But let's talk about how she's very much introduced and I want you to talk about

that, of course, like the Battle of New York intro, how did that land with you? Loved it. I thought it was one of the more seamless callbacks and linkings of moments across the MCU. Like obviously as we see from the your Hawkeye moment and everything that then transpires in episode two, Kate Bishop is a huge... Hawkeye fan. And to be able to very quickly in that opening sequence, tie back to this seminal moment in the history of the MCU in New York, I really like that point you made earlier about just what it would be like for Clint

to be back there, like walking through this graveyard and to see, you know, there's a line in Rogers the musical mocking that idea of like, well, we'll hold this gets you later, but like for now it's great. And there are, this is not, you know, the only instance across the M2, there are a lot of moments where you remember like, okay, well, this is what the cost of this was for real people. Obviously, like, Vulture in Spider-Man Homecoming is one of the, you know, all-time examples of how that plays out. But so to see that this was like literally happening in the Bishop family's front yard, just right there as the facade of the building is ripped off, but just these little glimpses into her room, into her life, the propensity for Ebb, eavesdropping, the familial strife, what's going on with Eleanor and Derek. Oh, are we going to have to sell the penthouse? Like this clarifying, instantaneously clarifying moment that will then be reinforced later between Eleanor and Kate, you can just tell right away, like, this is Derek's, this is Derek's family

history, this is his money. Eleanor did not have this. Kate will have it, you know, that line later about like, you're, you've, young people and rich people always think you get a lot of that quick. family history, which I thought was really effective. Establishing also that Kate and her father clearly have a very special bond in the show. And for Kate and her mom, they have to work a little harder for it. Like there's that Mommy's Can Be Fun 2 moment.

Yeah. That I really liked. And then to see the way in this sea of dust and hell and horror, Kate looks out and sees Hawkeye fighting in the Battle of New York. She's that iconic Hawkeye fall moment when we recognize instantly and knows so well. from Avengers. It just stitches together the shared history

very effectively and very quickly. I loved that. And I also really liked the way that went right into the opening credits, the intro, which is not in episode two.

In episode two, we get like an end credit sequence that features different illustrations. It's a Clint Kate shared focus at that point, casting a wider net around all of the characters who are going to be in the show.

Whereas in episode one, it is a, it is about fast forwarding. It's a training montage. But compellingly, yes, exactly, through Kate's, like, origin story in a way and how she amassed all of these skills. So, like, not only did I like the opening sequence,

but it's interesting to the point you're making about how it felt like maybe a little too much to get all of the glimpses of the trophies and the medals and, you know, there's the moment between Kate and Eleanor where it's like, here's another one for the case. We're going to have to start clearing all these out. I liked that. I liked all of that because it felt like,

We weren't going to be able to spend multiple episodes watching all of that with Kate and getting to see how she lived her life all of those years. So it felt like effective shorthand to establish her bona fide. So I thought it all worked for me. What did you think about that opening sequence in the 2012 Clint Kate moment? Using it as the opening credits as training montage, brilliant. What a cheap way. Not, not doesn't look cheap, but a cheap way to show us the training montage.

I love that Eleanor is there kind of throughout that training, you know, with like her hand on Kate's shoulder. often. I think that that was like a really interesting show shorthand that they put in there. So I liked all that. I'm just saying you take like 10 or 20% off the top. Like, you know, just like, you know, like there's shots in her, her flat of the trophies there. You know what I mean? It's just like a little extra. The opening, the Clint moment, falling off the roof is really fun. First of all, it's fun to see it from a different

angle, right? How he like falls in front of the camera. It's a great shot. Secondly, something that Fraction said in his conversation with us last week was when he made the Hawkeye comic, his Hawkeye comic came out the same time as Avengers. That's when it started 2012. As part of this loose concerted effort to make sure there was like comics on the shelves that fans of the movies could go pick up. And he's like, but I didn't know anything about how Renters Clint would be. he's like all I knew was from the trailer of that shot of him falling like jumping off the building. So that's the opening of the first issue of Hawkeye. And he was like, he said, I hope that's a cool moment because I used it to open my comic.

And it is a cool moment. But I love that it's the opening of the comic. It's this foundational moment for Kate. And the way in which Kate as a Hawkeye fan from the Battle of New York then gets to be kind of this meta stand in for kids who have grown up with the emcees. with watching Marvel films and now shows since they were kids. So, like, she gets to be this stand-in for Marvel fans, especially young Marvel fans, which I really love. So, yeah, all of that really works for me.

And the other thing that they do to sort of make sure it's reasonable that Kate would be able to do these things is the fact that her mom owns Bishop Security, which is this, you know, mega security company with insane. Saint Tech that can track anyone, I guess. They have eyes everywhere. And so like Veronica Mars on the TV series, Veronica Mars, who has access to this PI database, Kate has this help maneuvering in and out of the city. So I thought that was all interesting. Not exactly a one-to-one, but hopefully she will deploy those resources more responsibly than our guy Peter did when he inherited Edith from Tony.

Oh, boy. Oh, Peter. The point about like that meta note and fandom, I love that. That's really smart. And it's really cool, too, to think about how Kate's response in the face of not only losing her father and this carnage all around them, but like a literal alien invasion and this idea that as a child you would then grow up as you're saying in this world where these things were possible. God's, superpowered beings, alien invasions, just what you can expect to see from your front window any day of the week.

And her response to that because of what it felt like to see Clint do what he was doing is, I need a bow and arrow is like an amazing thing, right? I need this. And she has a joke, you know, in the first couple episodes about how she's really good with all of the, like, outdated weapons. And I like that they're leaning into that and finding, like, charm and character and charisma in it. And, you know, the other thing that's connected to this, though,

is that Kate, there are connections. You know, you called her in your piece on the ringer.com, like Batman with a ponytail, right? There are connections to other, and obviously inside of the MCU, you know, Tony of the billionaire or Playboy, right? Other characters have means, but, like, the fact that Kate has these resources at her disposal and has money and tech and training and skill

is something that we're pretty consistently reminded of throughout these first couple episodes. I think that's notable not only because it's a key part of her character, but because if handled less deftly, that could be pretty alienating. But it isn't here. Yeah, and I think Eleanor constantly calling out her privilege. It's such an interesting, like I suspect,

Eleanor's, again, we're going to talk about Eleanor, but Eleanor's whole, I didn't come from money thing. This like chip on her shoulder she has around that is interesting for Eleanor's character, but it also serves this double purpose because constantly calling Kate out for it means we as an audience don't have to call her out for it. You know what I mean? Well, and she's also still doing it in a way that's like, at least based on what we've seen so far, still ultimately loving and nurturing. Like there's not a Logan, Kendall, Roy, like, you can't stand the fact that you gave your kids all of these things you never had. Like, there's none of that energy here, at least not yet. And we should say casting-wise, like, Kaylee is a great casting for Kate. Eleanor Bishop isn't a character in the comics.

Like, Kate has a dad. Again, we'll talk about that. But Vera Fermiga is an incredible actress. And so I love their dynamic because it's so, it's so warm. Like this is such a mother-daughter, especially a mother who raised a daughter alone for much of her life, dynamic. And but with those little critiques in there. Do you know what I mean? It's all, it all works for me.

Yeah. And like something like when Kate says, I need to protect us, this is in that opening sequence at the funeral. And her mother says, Kate, that's my job. And, you know, one of the things that I really loved about Haley's performance in the first couple episodes, getting to know the MCUs, Kate Bishop, is that she never for a second, clearly never for a second, loses that protective instinct,

like the way that she responds to Jack and the news of the engagement, the way that, it's not just something like, you know, gum shoes sleuthing in the face of what unfolds at the auction or discovering Armand's body. It's like, well, what's up with this inheritance?

Or you just tried to hand me a monogram butterscotch that I saw in the layer of the dead, you know, mirror moments ago. The layer of the dead. Incredible. Like, I need to protect my mother. Mom, what was that guy saying to you when she overheard that fascinating conversation between Armand and Eleanor, which we'll talk about later too? But even something like when the tracksuits attack, what's Jack's response?

And what does that tell us? He makes a move for Ronan's sword, pockets it, and goes. What's Kate's response? how can I help? How can I help these people who are in peril? And like that might sound like a silly thing to even bother observing because of course she is literally going to be a superhero in the MCU. Like here come the Young Avengers. You know, Jomi's not here with us right now, but I have to have to, you know, the channel Jomey here, you know, Young Avengers, like here they come. But the contrast, the contrast in the way that her instinctual desire to try to help other people and protect them, even if and especially when it requires putting herself in peril, tells us as much about her as it does about the people who aren't inclined to do those things. And that's a very Clint move, too,

something that Fraction talked a lot about. Again, we can all agree to agree that Ultron has its issues, but something they were trying to show us with what happens in Zocovia with Clint and stuff like that is he's going to run towards danger. Much like Pietro ran toward the oncoming bullets for what? You didn't say that coming? You know, it's like

he's going to, he has no superpowers and he's still going to run into the fight, and that's what Kate's going to do too. And this is, this is a, their trouble, their challenge here is to introduce us to Kate and get us immediately to care about

Kate. In a way that the other Marvel shows, you know, like Hawkeyes here, Clint's here. But like the other show starts with Wanda or Falcon and Winter Soldier or Loki. This show starts with a new character.

And that's an interesting challenge for them. I think they landed it. They also have the challenge of, again, we talked about this before. I just want to touch on it briefly, reintroducing us to Clint. Wait. Before we move on to Clint. What? We must talk about Lucky for a minute because one of the-

Oh, I'm so sorry. So sorry. Frankly, how dare you? Carnal sin. Frankly, how dare you? Settling, tuck in. One of the ways that that is achieved so effectively, as heart-wrenching as it is, is that Kate gets to be the one in the show, and this is a change from the comics, she's the one who saves our pizza dog, right?

Less of a name, more of a title of nobility as she later tells Clint iconic moment, like a girl's sandwich. I loved that so much. You know, there's a moment when Jack says, like, smart as a whip this one. And the way that they've written Kate's dialogue, I think you feel that's so consistent. I actually am going to try to, like, contain my, my lucky talk here because we'll be talking about it all season long. I will just say, I love lucky. I love lucky in the comics. I love lucky in the show. My heart, like, I just love an animal. And my heart was shattering. You know, he runs in to try to stop the, the track suit mafia member who is, you know, oh, here's the watch

who's loading the duffel bags into the truck. And Lucky and Kate have previously had a moment when she goes outside to get some fresh air and is processing what she's already seen. He's there and he's looking at her and they share that little moment. And then he runs into the fray and he's attempting to thwart what is happening. And then that fucking piece of human garbage is kicking him and he's whimpering. And when you have the subtitles on it says parentheses whimpering and it's just like anguish inducing. and then he runs out into the traffic

and mercifully he is not hit by a car we should say that in the comics he is hit by a car his connection to the track suits we'll see how that ultimately you know the unspools in the show he's arrow Ivan's dog in the comic and he is badly mistreated

he is hurled in front of a moving vehicle he has hit by a car Clint takes him for medical care and then eventually Clint adopts him and brings him into his life. I think we got some really nice Clint lucky moments, like when he's resting his beautiful little face. You're a good boy.

You're a good boy. You're a good boy. You're a good dog. I want lucky to have, you know, pizza dog hashtag and pizza dog moniker at all. I really want lucky to have a more well-balanced diet. I think that's important. And I'd like to just throw that out there.

But the fact that he, is with Kate. The fact that he and Clint are starting to bond. I just love him and I'm so happy he's here. Pet of it. Okay, we can move on. It's screenwriting 101. There's a whole book called Save the Cat, which is like a screenwriting 101 trick to get you to be on the side of a new character is to have them save a cat or likewise. I don't like ever seeing animals in peril. Like it actually genuinely is very distressing to me. Like all kind of bits and... Bell loves an animal, all brand stuff aside. Like, it actually really makes me sad.

So I did find it heart-wrenching, but I just love the way he's just then, like, they go into Moyer's apartment and he just jumps right up onto the couch or I'm thawing out Pizza Dog's Breakfast. Like, he's just a part of their lives right away. And for anyone who is listening to this, who isn't aware, and you spoke about this with Matt Fraction when you interviewed him, like, Lucky's creation in the comic, races back to Matt losing his own dog as he was setting out to work on that story. And so he is like genuinely like a meaningful, a meaningful presence in the story. And I love him.

Let's talk about another meaningful presence in this story, which would be Clint Barney. Thank you for indulging me. I really appreciate it. Always every week. I'm here for Lucky Corner. We've talked, we've talked a lot about some of the things that they do have like the, the, the Watching up comedy associated with Clint using Nat's catch and release, the moment when he's watching Rogers the musical where he, you know, starts to think about Nat, comments from his daughter, comments from Laura, like all this sort of stuff. I just think, I do think this is a really good use of Clint in all of this. I really love the stuff with his kid. I love how he treats Lila as like the actual responsible one. And that that trans, how that transplants over.

George, you're always in charge. Yeah. Like, you know, some people, in an earlier film, he calls, you know. He calls Lila Hawkeye. Lila Hawkeye. That's the opening sequence in endgame. In end game. And so, like, that bond between them can easily be transplanted over to how he interacts with Kate. You know what I mean?

Like, some people thought Lila might be the Kate Bishop stand in eventually in the films, but they're bringing in an actual Kate Bishop. So it puts Clint in a dad role. ish with her. And that's very different from the comics, but I think it works really, really well. He's got the Ronan guilt that he's carrying around with him.

Yeah. Let's talk about that for a minute. All right. Hit me. I'm curious, it's almost impossible after seeing things to like go back in time

and try to remember what you thought about it before you've seen it. This is how I feel about it at least. But did you think that, you know, because we knew from the trailers and just how the show

was being marketed and teased that the Ronan's suit, that the appearance of Ronan is, oh, here's the newscast, this still frame. This was going to be a thing. Did you think that the Ronan suit and all of that was going to just be like a plot device to get some of these other characters into the fray? Like, for example, Jack, who we'll talk about more soon, in the comics, it's Jack and Clint

who have shared history in a connection, not Jack and Kate. So that's like another change where something from Clint's arc has moved over. to Kate, did you think it was just going to be like a way to kind of get some of these plot mechanics going? Or did you think it would be very central to the thematic focus? And I guess either way, how do you feel about the way that it was deployed through the first two episodes? I think it's really good. I think it's, I think I did think it was going to go a little deeper because I like, so what they had Clint do in endgame, especially like the way that it had affected Nat. and one of my favorite scenes ever,

which is the peanut butter sandwich scene, you can't just quickly move on from that. And again, all of this phase is about sort of reckoning with certain things in the past. You know what I mean? Loki reckoning with the damage that he's caused and stuff like that. And so the fact that like Clint just can't have a very cheery Christmas

without dealing with this other thing that he did while his family was gone. So I like, I really like how it's being used. I don't anticipate that it's going to be like a ton of flashbacks or anything like that. I think some people were worried that we would spend like a lot of time with Clint is running. I just don't think that's necessary. I think the simple line at the auction of like this is what, you know, decimated the criminal underworld, obliterating the status and power of the head of organized crime.

Who could that be? I have my theories. But all that just means here are these ghosts and there's a reason they're here messing around with Clint's Christmas. Do you know what I mean? What do you think? Yeah, like I think that there are certain potential plot connections or ramifications that are yet to reveal themselves. Like, for example, Echo is Ronan at one point in the comics. You know, I'll put a pin in that for now and I'll circle back to a Echo.

Ronan thought later, if I remember a theory. I really actually liked, I was a little worried about the Ronan stuff. and I liked the way it was handled here, at least so far, for a few different reasons. Not only those connections to Nat, which I agree with, but what it reminds us about a really dark, fucked up, period in Clint Barton's life. Like, we have these more sort of cheerful, oh my God, can you believe like this is the shit I'm doing and have to contend with right now? callbacks to Clint's pass, like the Thanos was right, toilet scrawl, or, you know,

just him saying, like, I fought, I fought Thanos during the whole LARP sequence. But Ronan, I think it's important that the show reminds us so many times that people don't know that was Clint, that this is still like a secret and a secret shame that he carries. You know, if you think back to the Tokyo sequence and end game and him saying, like, they got Thanos, you get me or what I want, you can't give me. The serial killing spree, he was eliminating bad people, but he was still the sole arbiter of justice. And the really like his dexter face. Right. That moment with Nat where when she finds him and tells him, you know, we found something like a chance, maybe. And he says, don't, don't want, don't give me hope. This is calling back to this moment of

desperation and loss, but also to all of the guilt. The guilt for what he did and what it says about what he's capable of doing. And then also the guilt and the grief in connection to Nat and her sacrifice. And, you know, you and I have talked before independently and together. You know, we talked about this on our Black Widow pod, about our feelings about everything that happened on Vormir. Specifically in terms of how that will play out moving forward, will there ever be a moment, whether it's at Rogers the musical or when he's seeing the

Ronan suit or elsewhere in his life, where Clint isn't thinking about needing to be worthy, not only to atone for his sins, but needing to be worthy of the fact that he is there and that isn't. Exactly. And again, that's a way to hopefully engage with the people who are like, the wrong event or died on Voramir, which is an attitude to a lot of people adopt, right? just Black Widow fans or Hawkeye haters, whoever you may be. If you think the wrong kid dad, to quote a film, like, if you think that's what happened on Voramir, Clint might agree with you is the point. And I think that that is like a really, a really smart thing.

To use Laura this way is also really interesting because like Linda Cardalini is just incredible, sprinkle her magic on everything. Having Linda Cardalini and her like hallmark Christmas explosion of a farmhouse on the phone, It is really good. It does play into a film trope that I don't love, which is wife on the phone the whole movie. There was a real stretch of time when like Oscar winning actresses were just like wife on the phoneing it in movies. There was that like Everest movie and also like a couple 9-11 movies and whatever it is. That being said, if you're going to put a wife on the phone the whole time, let it be Linda Cardolini.

And what I like about Laura in here is like how engaged she is. She knows everything. Yeah, she knows that the track suit tracksuit guys are idiots. Yeah, she knows Nats moves, like all that sort of stuff. So she's not just like, and she's not a nagging wife of like,

come home for Christmas, where are you, all that stuff? That would be awful. Like, this is just a really good move to put Linda Cardalini on the phone. Just be like, hey, all right,

you got five days to fulfill that promise to your kids. But you also know that she's not going to be, like, mad at him if he doesn't come through in that way. It's his, internal pressure to get home for the holidays that that makes this so strong, you know? Yes, absolutely. I agree she is a, she's always a source of joy. Less of a source of joy for Clint, the larpers, and Katness.

I had a little bit of an issue with the larping scene, but I did talk to about it. Yeah. It's safe to say that a lot of people who watch Marvel Television are the kind of folks who might larp, who might enjoy a run fair, and I remember hearing from folks that the Renfair sequence in Loki kind of bothered them because they felt like there was just like a little bit of punching down at Renfair attendees in that sequence. And I think they might have a similar reaction

to the larping sequence because although at the end of the day, Clint's like, I'm glad I did it. And that's sort of the vibe you want. It's just sort of like, Clint is grumpy. It's so ridiculous. It's fun to like watch Clint be

grumpy about something. Like, it's ridiculous that this train fighter is, like, fighting with, like, fake swords and stuff like that. That's the comment. For Mount Deepdale, and now we burn the corpse. Like, all of that. But then it, sometimes I think it does go a little overboard, like, with the guy who's making the, like, ching-chings sounds as they're fighting.

Like, LARPERS don't do, I mean, it just makes, I just think it's, there's some slight downward-facing punches. That's what I think in that sequence. So, but overall, I enjoy it. I think it looks great. like Clint just sort of tearing through these Larpers looks great. And I just think it's funnier overall if Clint is just like, you know what I, which he does at the end.

He's like, I'm glad I did it. You know what I mean? I think that's really fun. What do you think? Two Easter eggs here. One, we get a noble mayor of Westland, but not a noble mayor of Kingstown. Grills! We have to talk about grills for a minute here.

Yes, yes. Right? Because this is who has the Ronan suit that Clint, I guess, just a a big, you know, IG social media user, he tracks down in a hurry with a quickness. What was your response when he said that his name was Grills? Of course, Girls is a figure from the comics. What was your response? I gassed because of what happens with Girls in the comics.

I literally outlawed gassed. And then when I rewatched the episode, I realized that he said his name was Girls in that, like, social media post that Clint is watching. So I just missed it the first time. So the first time I heard it was when he introduced, when he's like, hey, I'm Grills. sort of moment. Yeah, I gassed with the emotions. How about you? So again, we said

at the top that we will be like talking about everything from the comic, but just another little quick warning here. Fast forward. Hit the 15 second forward button if you don't want to hear this. I was like, grills, whoa! You know, excitement and then immediately just dread. Because of course,

you know, on the heels of something like the hurricane sequence where Clint goes with grills to girls his father's house, and the way that girls calls Hawkeye Hawk Guy and just all of these little moments, you know, Clint is managing the building that he took away from Ivan's control because Ivan was mistreating his tenants. That's a huge part of the plot. And Grills is one of the people in the building. He's killed by the clown by Kazi. So I am like very worried now about

our guy Grills. I'm just, I asked Reese about it. You guys can listen to it and decide what you think. I really think this is probably an Easter egg. There's only four episodes. There's so many characters. We don't have enough time for Clint to establish the relationship. He doesn't have time to go upstate and help Grills' dad enough to care about Gros so much that he will be emotionally devastated when Kazi kills him. You know what I mean?

So I do think it's just a little, I think it's an Easter egg. But if it's not, then yes, I am worried about Gross. My worry is that they went out of the way to have like a pretty long conversation and like share an introduction. And like you can call me Clint. And like I'm just, I'm worried. I'm worried. I'm just, I'm just, maybe if girls comes back, I mean, he is a firefighter or what or what or have you. So you might be around.

All of that was a little sweaty, I will say just plotting wise. Otherwise I felt this whole thing was tight as a drum. But Clint going back to the apartment, wandering around the apartment, looking for the suit, not finding it, putting the fire stuff. back in the truck and then seeing the larking sticker. All that just felt like a little, like a little loose and could have been tightened up. How did it feel in contrast when you saw Clint saying that's Katness Everdeen? I mean, incredible. Incredible.

And once again, that's a meta commentary when Kate's like, you got a branding problem. Like this is the show talking about how Hawkeye is not a very popular Avenger generally. But also it has that impact of their backstory and. the respective, because when she says at the end, like, inspiration, Clint, she's not just giving him a lecture. She's calling back to her own relationship to him that he's not even aware of at that point. So even that had the layers. We should note that Clint never uses the bow and arrow. It doesn't use a bow and error in the first two episodes. That that was an intentional choice. And I don't know if it's just to like try to put Kate Moore in that Hawkeye room or maybe it'll

feel like a big moment when if when Clint does eventually pick up the bow and arrow. or if they're focusing even more on like he's retired. Like he's not doing this anymore. So like, you know, when he goes to fight the track suits, he's just like, you know, like he's not excited to get back into the action sort of thing. So I don't know, just look for the bow and arrow use. It's an interesting track. Rogers the musical.

Should we talk about it? Should we do it? Okay, I got a shout out really quickly to my musical theater fans listening. Adam Pascal, the original Roger in Rent, is the sort of main guy singing in this. He's the New Yorker with the beard. That's Adam Pascal. Broadway royalty also had a cameo this last weekend in Tick, Boom. So it's a good time to be an Adam Pascal fan.

This is Mark Schaman, Scott Whitman. These are musical theater guys that they called up to do this number, a real Agatha all along feeling from all of this. Great. I mean, great, short, sweet, funny, Clint pointing out that Amman wasn't there. Yeah, I love that he pointed that out. Works great for me. And it is another meta-commentary on MCU fandom.

Do you know what I mean? It's like the commodification of these superheroes. And you have this like many-layered response to it where it's like, man, this is kind of a banger, dropped the whole soundtrack, actually. And then also this rush of horror because everything is, content including like severe trauma and for Clint to have to not only see Nat but watch like the most defining moments of his life be turned into currency for other people and then for things like okay William I wasn't there that's wrong or oh my god Nat there she is we also that's when that's when

when Lila is talking to him because the sound kind of is sucked out of the scene and we realize that he has turned off his hearing aid. And then later, when he and Kate are walking in the second episode toward Bishop Security, and he switches sides, and she thinks he's like being a gentleman, you know, taking the outside on a crowded city street. And he explains, no, I, you know, I need this to be able to hear you. And then we have that rapid fire flash. And he's like, I don't even know what this is from, which is all of all of these, like, horrors and all of these. things that he has suffered through and the toll that that has taken.

And that's obviously also something from the comics. And that's something that's so smart and tight. Like that just shows you how tight this show is, that in that Roger the musical audience scene, we get hearing loss information and nat trauma information, just spliced in there. I think it's great. I want to talk, I mean, I don't need to talk about it in depth. I just sang, soundtrack's amazing. Fraction, apparently, like, he told me he made several

playlists. Rees told me he listened to Fraction several playlists. Fraction later asked me if a certain Christmas song was on the soundtrack, and we haven't heard it yet. But so I think he just sent a lot of Christmas music over to Reese. And so I'm just enjoying it. I love a Christmas soundtrack, so. Do you have a favorite Christmas tune or a favorite Christmas album, Holiday album? My God. Oh, my God. That's a long, that's a long, answer, honestly, and I'm so sorry. But there's a deep, cheesy part of me that loves last Christmas by Wham. So there you go. But I have like a really, really, really, really, really,

really, really, really, really long Spotify didn't pay me to say this, Spotify playlist of holiday stuff that I listen to every year. So, yeah. I love it. Well, it's nice to have a compelling soundtrack while we are meeting so many different new characters and so many different villains. Should we talk about them for a few minutes here? Start with Echo. We meet Echo at the end of episode two. What a babe.

Alaka Cox. Really excited. This is an unknown actress that they cast in this role. In fact, she's living on a reservation with her mom. I think she still lives there when they cast her. You know what I mean? So she had like no experience. And I'm really excited for her to join the MCU.

Echo being a Native American, deaf character. I thought our introduction was really badass. I think the speaker's thumping and the way that she, like, dismissed Ivan. Like, you know she's powerful if this, like, if she's just, like, wave of the hand to this, like, big brutish, brutish track suit guy. So, yeah, I'm excited for Echo. She's got connections to Kingpin in the comics. She's got connections to Daredevil in the comics. So who knows where we're going to go.

what do you think? I'm curious to see the ultimate track suit tie explained because that is going to be new to us. But, you know, Echo's powers in the comic, like the ability, not dissimilar from Taskmaster to mimic, to study and then mimic.

So Echo, presumably in the show, will be able to hang with Clint and Kate as an archer to hang with Jack, the swordsman, as a swordsman, etc., etc., etc. So I'm really eager to see how all of that manifests. And then, yeah, you know, I think we both are eager to talk about, let's just do the kingpin stuff here for a few minutes, right? This is pure theory territory. I want to right now propose an org chart for the villains in this show.

Do it. Here's where I think it goes. the bottom we've got the tracksuits. Slightly above, at the top of the track suits, Ivan. Slightly above Ivan Kazi. Maybe at the same level as Kazi or slightly above him, but I think above him, Echo. Then Eleanor. I mean, I'm sure there's layers, but then Eleanor, then Kingpin.

That's what I think the org chart is for this red color-coded organization. What do you think? I'm curious to see if Kazi Because, you know, there's that sequence where it's like, is he your boss? Is that your boss? I want to talk to him. And even just, again, like we mentioned, the fact that he's wearing that overcoat. He pulls up his mask.

We linger on his face. You know, he's established independently of many of the other characters, you know, as is Ivan, of course, in the tracksuits. You know, in the comic. He's giving the orders at the auction. Right. About the watch. And we have, you know, 90 seconds.

This is the priority. But also, we hear. when they're taking Clint possibly the funniest moment in the entire two episodes when he says, guys, I can see through the bag. Yeah, yeah, yes. Amazing.

Oh, funny. Again, it just tells you everything you need to know about these buffoons. But we hear Ivan say easy, easy, she wants him alive. Yes. And then you couple something like that with, you know, when he, like you're like,

you already noted when he goes to call out Echo where it's Kazi, even though he is dressed differently than everyone else in that sequence. is moving around and Clint is engaging with him and drawing our attention to him. Causey's out there with them. So I definitely think like it seems like at least so far,

Echo is, yes, like leading that group in a way that Kazi isn't. But I'm interested to see if it's like a hierarchy like that and Kazi slots in above Ivan and below Echo or if he's like parallel to them in some way because, you know, in the comics, they, he's contracted. He's a contracted killer, right?

And they bring him into the fold to try to kill Clint. So is he like apart? How much is he a part he's wearing? know the track suit under the code. How much is he a part of that organization and how much has he been brought in for this mission? And I have a theory, a Kazi theory. We have a theory section at the end, but we are running a little long. It's so connected to the villains. We'll just do it all at once here. Yeah, go for it. My Kazi theory is this. Like, I asked Reese about this. You can listen to his answer. But the actor who plays Kazi, which is Frafi, he's fourth

build in the first episode and sixth build in the second episode, which is wild, given how little screen time he has. We see his face. He says a couple things. Fourth build. He's built above Tony Dalton in the first episode. Wild stuff when Tony Dalton is Jack Duquesne is all over that episode. So I have to feel like something pretty significant is coming for him.

An issue in the comics, it's a bizarre issue in the comic run, but there's this like flirtation between Kazi and Kate. So my question is, is Kazi going to be some sort of like love, you know, because Kate hasn't seen his face. He's seen Kate's face. Kate hasn't necessarily seen his face. Though I guess she would have in the warehouse.

But is there going to be some sort of like romantic connection between Kate and Kazi? Does that age work for everyone? She's 22. Does that work? I don't think that can happen though, because she, at the end of episode two, she's, they're captive as well.

And so that will be her, like there's not going to, she's going to see his face. He's standing right there. I feel like there's, I feel like there's going to be some sort of Kate Kasi connection. I have no, this is just this is my sense. I'm calling my shot. Okay. Kate and Kazi, something. Okay. All right. There's also the question of Echo because in the comics, Echo is a protege of Kingpin, but then she becomes a protege of Matt Murdox. Right. Because Echo's father, who is going to be a character in the show. Zahn McLarnan, a great actor. Yes. Tremendous.

Echo's father is an enforcer for Kingpin in the comics, and then Kingpin has him killed, but manipulates the truth to bring Echo into his fold, and it's only later through the Daredevil plot, that Echo learns the truth. And so I'm curious to see if that ports over to in this, like, you know, villain turned hero arc, because Echo, you know, there's a Disney Plus show coming,

and Echo show. not that villains can't have their own shows, of course, but I feel like that turn is coming. I think we both agree that, you know, and the internet has been like, and well, again, I'm sure this will dominate a lot of the conversation after the episode's actually air. Again, we're banking this in advance,

but this has been the source of speculation for months now and predating all of this, like when will some of the Netflix characters in canon come into the MCU? This is an ongoing, long-running discussion. And listen, Vince, Yes. The tweets.

Vincent Dinoffrio is out there, like really letting us know that he's probably going to be in this show. So I'm not, I don't feel like it's a big spoiler or anything like that. It just feels inevitable, right? It feels like it's going to happen. Or Vincent Ophrio is having the best time pulling a practical joke on us. Which would be great too. Here's my, here's my Ronan connection theory that I mentioned earlier. Not because Echo is Ronan at one point in the comics, but because of the way the track suits are like,

Ronan, Ronan and that history between Ronan and the track suits, could Ronan be the one in the show who Kingpin, we learn in time, blamed for Maya Lopez's father's death instead of Daredevil? I think so. And so you've got Yelena descending on Clint, like sent from the Black Widow film, and you've got Echo blaming Ronan, you know what I mean? So like, yes, I think that's a great theory. I really like that theory. I know you have a theory about the watch,

the watch that we saw in the auction. My watch theory connects to this potential plot line. So I'm going to throw it out for you. Let me know what you think. I feel like a lot of people are going to have this theory. I don't think this is particularly unique, probably. It's like, okay, whose watch is that, why is it the thing that they are specifically there

infiltrating to retrieve? Is it Kingpin's watch? and Echo still at this phase if it plays out the way we think it might, the protege there to get it for him or on behalf of him, or could it be Echo's father's watch? I feel like there must be an echo connection

because why else would she presumably be sending the tracksuits to retrieve it? Or did Eleanor send them? Let's talk about this for a minute. Let's get into the, let's get into the, and we still have to talk about, I mean, we have so much to do so. We still have to talk about Jack a little more in Armand.

Let's talk about Eleanor. This all connects. So in the comics, there's a character named Madam Mask, who has a suspiciously similar haircut to the wig Vera Fermiga is wearing the black bob as a classic Madam Mask look. This is not a Madam Mask in the comics tangles with Kate. She's not Kate's mom. But Kate's dad is associated with this villainy.

So he's a peripheral character, but she does have, she finds out she does have a family connection. How devastating will it be for Kate if she finds out that her mom is somehow tied to these criminals that she's fighting? Here's my grand unified theory. And I'm going to make it quick. Okay. Brian Darcy James is in the first episode. Brian Darcy James is aged down in the first episode. The way that they age down, slight CGI facelift on Vera Farmiga, slight aging down of Brian Darcy James.

They black his beard, all this sort of stuff like that. You don't age down a character. If you're not going to later show him older, I do not think he's dead. We never saw him die. We never saw the body. I think that he faked his death in the battle. He says this thing about, like, she says something about, Ellen says something about, like, you think solutions are going to fall out of the sky.

Well, she says you're going to have to give up the penthouse. She says solutions fall out of the sky. It's like using the battle of New York as a solution that fell out of the sky. Yeah. Fakes his death to get out of like whatever criminals are chasing him, whatever debt he's gotten himself into, life insurance policy, who knows what it is, fakes his death to help his family, right? Eleanor knows how that connects to Eleanor getting involved in the criminal element.

I don't know, but I feel like she wasn't then and she is now. Armand knows something. I think Eleanor had Armand killed. I don't think Jack is actually, I think Jack is 100% of red herring villain in all of this. That's sort of my granny and fried theory. I'm with you for a lot of that. Maybe the watch is Kate's dad's. But I don't know why Echo's dad's watch or Kingpin's watch or Kate's dad's watch would be the Avengers compound.

That's what I don't understand. You know what I mean? I love that. We've mentioned multiple times from multiple different aspects of the story, flipping something between characters from comics canon to what we're seeing in the show. And Kate's dad being the one who they think is dad and actually isn't. instead of Kate's mom being the one who they think is dead and actually isn't. And then connecting to, I don't think that would be in place of Eleanor emerging as a villain.

I agree with you that that seems quite probable here. But, you know, when, right, because ultimately, like, the fact that Eleanor is connect, is not only alive, but connected to Madam Mask. Flipping that in some way would be really interesting here. Could Eleanor become the MCU's Madam Mask? Obviously, that's a character who was like an Agent Carter and we've seen on TV before. I think she already is. something is for her version of, yeah, what that character will be.

The, so to the swordsman, red herring point, I'm with you. Because, you know, Jack, in the comics, as mentioned, connects to Clint and this, like, circus past and training him in the bow and blade and all the stuff. The swordsman is villain and hero across comic appearances. And so it's not like there's, like, definitively one. version of the swordsman that we should expect to get here. Obviously, there's like some shady shit going on, you know, like there's that exchange with Armand and Jack where he says, you don't have enough money to buy the sword. And it's like, well, but I will one day. Wow. Ha ha ha ha ha. You know, like he might as well twirl a mustache. But that's red, that's red herring stuff.

Exactly. Similarly, the butterscotch. I mean, this guy's not an idiot, right? So unless he's using that in that moment to test Kate, like let me see if she recognizes this and if she's on to me, then it has to be a red herring. It almost is just too obvious. And Kate is too overtly suspicious of him at this point, where she has no reason to suspect her mother. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. Howdy take your coffee, piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try two good and company creamers. They're made with farm fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good

creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. Every outfit starts with a choice. What am I wearing underneath? Something comfortable? And let's be honest, something that keeps everything looking smooth. That's where Vanity Fair Laundrae comes in. Their new smoothing wireless bra has four-way stretch fabric for all over smoothing, soft lightly lined cups for a natural shape, and no wire comfort that last all day. All over smooth, all-day comfort, Vanity Fair lingerie. Find yours at Target today. I can explain. Can we talk without the interloper? Please. No, no, it makes perfect sense that she would be hostile. She likely feels displaced by me,

and she's testing our new dynamic. She both desires my approval, yet wants to set firm boundaries. She feels threatened by me, and you know what? I can understand why. I bought a book about being a stepdad. I think we've already talked about how Tony Dalton

is like pitch perfect tone, I think, for the show as Jack. I think also pitching Kate's issue with him as like a sort of parent trap, step parent sort of jealousy, protectiveness thing, as you mentioned, is really, really smart, keeps the suspicion at home.

If, in fact, the big bad winds up being Eleanor, it's interesting to have Jack so close to her as, like, a suspicion. So I think all of that's really smart. And I love that. And I do want to shout out one of my favorite actors of all time,

Simon Callow, showing up as Armand, I think also, pitch perfect tone, Simon Callow, classical British stage actor. I first saw him in four weddings and the funeral. I don't know what your Simon Callow interactions are.

Outlander? Oh, okay. All right. But he's fantastic. Just love that guy. And for him to show up to do maybe probably one episode of Hawkeyes, just truly the best stunt casting in my view. So, yeah, anything else do you want to say about Jack? Should we talk about the sword?

Do you want to talk about the sword? Sure. Yeah. Do you have a theory on why he wanted the Ronan Blame? in particular. What about why Armand wanted it? I don't have a theory at all. I'm baffled and dazzled. I mean, obviously, Jack collects swords.

And so it could just be something new and exotic for his sword collection. But I don't have a better theory than that. How about you? You know, this connects to our red herring discussion. If he is actually one of the big dads and is not, in fact, a red herring, then maybe there is some connection to something run into. hook from Jack or Armand or something in the Duquesne family circuit in the past. That could be one reason.

I think also like, you know, Kate does that great rundown of all the different fencing styles and blades. I can't claim to be a fencing expert, but oh, which are you? And, you know, he's got all of these swords adorning the apartment and his collections, but he does have like this iconic blade that he's associated with, at least in terms of the tech. So maybe just giving him a show MCU-specific version of like an iconic blade, but also maybe it serves to make him a target later from the other people who are pursuing Ronan if he's carrying the Ronan weapon.

I think it could go any number of ways. Or if they're looking to frame Ronan for something, having his sword would be helpful in that regard. With Armand, like limited time, as you noted, but he got so many key moments. Like, what a weird fucking thing for him to say to Kate you think. You think so, so does he? I'm not so sure about her own mother being a prize. Like, that is wild shocking stuff. You watched it. You watched it with a close captions on. I didn't actually realize we had close captioning on our screeners. I didn't the first time, but I did the second time. And in part because of his exchange with Eleanor where I was like, I cannot miss a single word. So what I got was, don't try that on me. And I gave you an opportunity to explain yourself, I've got powerful friends too. Did you pick up anything that Eleanor said? What did she say?

So his first line, and this is a key one for your Ellen. He says, I should have known that this empire of yours would be built on a lie. Okay. That's the very first thing according to the subtitles that he says to her before we can really fully hear. And then Eleanor says, by myself from the ground up. So whatever you think you saw is not true. He says, don't insult my intelligence.

She says, you're frankly insulting us both. He says, I know what I saw. Then she says, you are all just. And he says, don't try that on me. I gave you an opportunity to explain yourself. She says, I don't want to argue with you. And he says that friend's line. I've got powerful friends, too, the kind you don't want to mess with.

Intriguing. Also, he tells Jack that he's losing his patience with his fiancé. And Jack's like, shut the fuck up, you hold a goat. But in a more Disney Plus way. But in a really charming Zorro kind of way. Fascinating. And I think that, yeah, which is why I would blame it. I would think that maybe Eleanor is the one who killed Armand.

We should talk about the Bishop Security cameras. that are everywhere, as she said. The track suit bros tell Clint, we've got eyes everywhere, which to me means they have access to Bishop Security. But what's key is that when Kate breaks into Armand's apartment right after the murder, she's in the Ronan suit. So if Eleanor has access to this footage as well,

she only knows that Ronin was poking around, not that Kate. So she has a reason to be fearful and suspicious and anxious about Ronan, but not about Kate yet. And the Ronan aspect makes its way onto the news, as Clint says, you know, you've been on the news twice

and it's just 24 hours, congrats. So that part's out there. But yeah, maybe she had access to even more from the cameras and the tech. Right. And I mean, I think that's why Kate's in the suit when she does that so that there's like, so that Eleanor doesn't know yet

how deep Kate isn't all of this. And I think when the explosion, this is why I think Eleanor is behind the sort of auction heist is that when the explosion happens at the auction, she honestly does not look that concerned. A massive explosion goes on downstairs.

She doesn't look at that concern. Her only concern eventually is for Kate. Where's Kate in all of this? And then that whole potentially feigning of surprise of black market auction. And of course, Jack is like, I've got to go to my other engagement. Like, it doesn't seem like that would really be a mystery to her. But then she's sort of like fronts like it is. Sus, suspicious.

Suss, suss. So that's the thing. It's like, you know, how is this all going to pan out? Is Jack involved in her empire or not? I think it's more fun if he's not and his complete red herring, but who knows? And either way, he might be a bad guy, right? Like, he might still be after her money or Armand's money or any number of things. He's not completely on the up and up.

It's like, you know, absolutely not. We shall also point out some blanks in the opening credits. This was a really fun game to play during Falcon and the Winter Soldier to try to figure out, like, the fill in the blanks and Loki, too. Like, who's coming? Florence Pugh, we think, is coming. Vincent DiNoffrio might be coming. So, like, looking at those blanks and how they fill in. Brian Darcy James has listed in the opening credits for the first episode,

Simon Callow as well, with Simon Callow. So I really think we're going to see Brian Darcy James again. Go Google what he looks like right now, guys. And then look at what he looks like in episode one. And you tell me they didn't deach him a little bit. When do you think over, under, when do you think Yelena shows up? You stole one of my questions that I was going to ask. you because I don't have an answer and I wanted you to go first. I'm going to say episode four.

I say four. That's what I was going to say. Great. What about, buddy. Same page. Same page. I love it. And do you think she's in one episode or two? Oh, good question. I almost feel like it has to either be like one scene or like three episodes. I feel like it has to be one or the other. No in between. I say one episode. I say one episode. I say one episode. Just here for one episode. That's my that's my call. If you guys have any other options like thoughts, theories, whatever, please do. Tweet at us, put it in the like Facebook group.

Don't wait for the episode three mailbag prompt. No, just tell us all of your thoughts and theories. If someone has already figured out what the watch is, please tell us because as we said, we're recording this early. So if Reddit has already cracked this, I'm sorry, we're banking this episode early. We did our best. All right. Our last thing before we go, right, is our new our new segment. It's secret scroll watch 2021. Boy. Who do we think might be a scroll that we met already in this scene?

We were going to do an Easter egg roundup before this. By some time while we brainstorm scrolls. Maybe I'll want to put one of my Easter eggs in there. When Kate is doing her Bell Tower Clock Tower prank, her friend is, is Greer. The name shows up on her caller ID. It's like very specifically pointed out. I asked Reese about it. You can hear that. Greer Grant is the name of Tigra, which is a Marvel character. And I would have not guessed that a figure like Tigra would show up in the MCU, except that Nate Moore named her in his conversation with the Midnight Boys when talking about an Avengers lined up.

However, this might just be an Easter egg. I don't know. But Greer. You linger on the name on the phone, though. Yeah. You got to pay attention. Got to pay attention. They want us to ask.

They want us to ask. Moira Brandon, we mentioned already. Grills we talked about already. Bag of Money line when they're buying like Neosporin and all that sort of stuff. That to me feels like a comics nod because Clint has got this bag of money. He's toting around in the comics. So that's what I think. And what's your favorite Easter egg potentially?

really spotted. I think it's probably camping out at Moyer's apartment, especially given, you know, Kate's journey west to California in the comics and the fact that Moira's California abode ends up being like a West Coast Avengers compound and just those little ties. Plus, of course, it gave us those iconic fashion moments. Can I ask you a question? This might make me sound just deranged. And as you know, and as I've said on many pods and we'll continue to until I get corrective eyewear, I definitely need glasses. So this might not be a thing. But when they're in the like drawing room,

whatever that grand room is, back at the bishop place, and Kate is in the pants suit, there's a framed thing on the wall. I don't know if it's like a poster or what. And it looked, I was like, is that the same pattern as what Kate is wearing? Like it looked so similar.

I'm going to send you screenshots. Okay. The two posters I noticed is that Kate had like a fencing championship French poster on her wall in her flat before I got burned. Really sad to see that flat get burned. It was great production design. And secondly, Moira, there was like a movie poster for like a movie that Moira was in on the wall of her apartment and stuff like that. I love that. I wondered if the numbers were Easter eggs, I can't claim to have figured them out if they are.

But at the auction, lot number 309 and lot number 268, like whenever. a Marvel property draws attention to a number. It's like, does that connect to a key comic line where some of the characters have done something notable or one of the writers or pencilors or any number of possibility? So I don't know if 309 or 268 have a Hawkeye connection, but maybe wonder.

I mean, that could be the clue to the watch mystery because it's the lot. 268 is the watch. So if you're listening and you know what that connection is, please tell us. Tell us. Stop your Thanksgiving dinner to, or leftovers. Put down the turkey sandwich and come tell us what the lot is.

All right. Who's your scroll? Who's your scroll? Hit me. My scroll. My scroll. My scroll. Oh, God.

This is really hard. I'm going to go with Ivan. Okay. Ivan's great. Oh, Ivan's so good. I'll go with Kazi. Cosi's so mysterious. I considered picking Kossi, too.

I think that he's actually a really good candidate here, especially given the change to his character so far. All right. We did it. Should we listen to our interview with Reese, Reese Thomas? Take us away, Reese. But seriously. thank you. I owe you one. This has been like the best day of my life.

I can't say the same. I mean, come on. You did have fun, right? Glad it did it. Merry Christmas. You too. Clint? I want to start by asking you one of my favorite questions to ask a Marvel EP slash director,

which is if you have any film influences sort of that might be either out of the outside the box or inside the box? In other words, like, how much is Home Alone to Lost in New York an influence on this film? No, it's absolutely that. No, I had an interesting sort of slow road into this project in that I did have some time. You know, I got shared, the outlines were shared with me

quite early on and the notion that the show was tonally, you know, going to sort of, take some cues from the Mep fraction run of Hawkeye Comics. And so I sort of, you know, and I also, again, not being someone to presume that I might actually get this job, I just sort of got very excited and persistent with Marvel. And so definitely went down a road of just kind of diving into those comics and then from there kind of springing out all over the place in pursuing references. And so, yeah, I mean, the fraction run itself has this kind of fun,

almost 70s kind of New York vibe to it. So, you know, things like Clute and the French connection were kind of the beginnings of things. And, you know, I did everything for like the Anderson tapes. And like I just, yeah, the Parallax View blow out. I mean, I kind of, I got really carried away with that mode of thinking for a while. And it was definitely also, I think, sort of feeding notes back to Marvel based on the outlines, which we're probably trying to encourage.

the show to go that way. But at the same time, you know, I think knowing tonally that we sort of trying to find that kind of comedic bent, yes, I mean, also, I mean, die hard just definitely, again, I will unashamedly reference that one as a classic Christmas movie and lethal weapon and, you know, midnight run, you know, from the sort of buddy comedy perspective. it's always big. But yeah, I will admit home alone and home alone too,

lost in New York, very much cross my path as well. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like I kind of went everywhere like stray dogs as well, like, because we, again, there was sort of, we have this, you know, Ronin's suit kind of mystery.

So I kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can kind of keep going all day because I sort of, there was just, all sorts of like thief. I mean, again, and stuff that probably people won't see necessarily or realize in the show. But I had in our offices in Atlanta, I plastered the walls and the hallways just with images from all over the place.

I mean, partly it's just ultimately it became really about a texture because, you know, and I sort of just rounding the show in a different way. And so a lot of those references just, I just feel like they have such a great focus on character. So that was really kind of what it ultimately became about. It's so interesting that you mentioned sort of that buddy cop vibe and what's so interesting about, you know, cues from the fraction run. And I had a great chat with Matt Fraction last week about his work on the show, like as a consulting producer or stuff like that. But taking some cues from the Fraction AHA run, but because of where Clint is in the MCU is so different from

where Clint is in that book, sort of flipping the dynamic almost. where Kate becomes sort of the agent of chaos, and Clint has to be the sort of the sensible one. Can you talk about that journey to that dynamic? Yeah, no, exactly. In the fraction run, yeah, Clint's life is definitely kind of out of control. And Kate's this wonderful balancing kind of force and sort of the voice of reason and maturity oftentimes. And yes, in this show, obviously, we know that Clint's, that MCU Clint is, you know, he's similarly world-weary. and been beaten down.

But yeah, he has family and responsibilities. And so, yeah, maybe his sense of responsibility of the world is different. And yeah, and we wanted to introduce this new character that sort of, you know, yeah, probably comes closer to sort of the, yeah, the West Coast and just kind of iteration of Cape Bishop, kind of this peppy, energetic version of her.

But, you know, at the same time, like I do like the fraction of Kate Bishop, like her maturity and that wisdom. And so I felt like that was always still kind of, like a North Star in terms of trying to find her voice. And I do remember in the writing process, we definitely, it took a little while, I think, to kind of find that voice because, yes, enthusiasm can quickly teach her into annoying and also unsympathetic.

And so, you know, I think trying to, again, find that sense of, you know, again, she's going, she's going to contribute something. And Clint is obviously, you know, part of the journey is. is then both learning off each other. And so I think, you know, she has to have some other depth. And ultimately, though, Haley herself was really kind of the true grounding force. You know, I think, again, we sort of took it so far. But it wasn't until I hit Haley and spoke to her.

And then you actually heard the lines coming out of her mouth that I sort of felt finally reassured that we had, you know, that sort of, that something else that you can't identify on the page. Fractions listed as a consulting producer, but also one of my favorite people, Jen Robinson, no relation to me, is also listed as a consulting producer. She made the great show Sweet Vicious, which has these like teen girl vigilantes. And I was wondering, you know, was she brought on to me work on some of this Kate stuff? And what was that process like, making sure you like really owned Kate to be what you wanted her to be? Yeah, no. I mean, yeah, Jan actually, we brought her on a little bit after I came on. Yes, partly because we were wanting to try and dial in Kate and, yeah, just kind of give her, yeah, that maturity and that edge. And so, yeah, Jen was definitely a part of that because, yes, it's, you know, I think it's, it's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's actual voices of the characters and it always, you know, it's always, you know, it's always this balancing act of trying to make it all work.

And it being Marvel and, you know, you're kind of, again, you're also coming to this preexisting universe that's vast. and with these well-established characters like Clint. So I think, again, obviously, there was like a massive familiarity with kind of the Jeremy Clint Barton in a way in everybody's minds. But yes, who is this new person and how is she going to be? And so, yeah, it was, again, it's, like I said, it's sort of this, it was just funny exploration, I think,

of just trying to pinch it. But really, ultimately, I think it was Haley that kind of finally landed the plane. Another switch, of course, is that Lucky the Pizza Dog, a fan favorite, is not Clint's dog. He's sort of Kate's dog, at least, you know, in these two episodes here. There's a moment right where Lucky runs into traffic and the comic he gets hit. Here he's saved. And there was, you know, I was watching and I was like, this is Disney. Are they going to hit the dog?

Not that I want to see that happen. And of course, Lucky's fine in the comics, but eventually. but was there ever discussion of like how dark do we want to go? Are we going to, are we allowed to hit the dog or not? I don't know if I, well, yeah,

I don't know if I have across, I cross the bridge of actually wanting to hit the dog or not. But yeah, I mean, even even the dog, you know, getting, because in fraction,

he actually, you know, I think he gets kicked, but, you know, by the track suits and Clint intervenes in that and then, you know, and so,

yeah, even that, like, because, you know, you want, yeah, but ultimately,

I think it was, for us it was just like, look, you want lucky to kind of, you know, also to enter this story and, you know, with some agency. And so obviously we had him also kind of intervening in a moment and having some agency in that. And, yeah, I don't know. So the whole car rescue thing, yeah, I don't think he ever got hit. In terms of making it darker, I mean, again, like I said, I came in, I think, I was listening to like Matt's playlists. Like, he sent me all those playlists and he said yeah and i was like fully in that well again i i i would have definitely probably if left my own devices made a pretty like um 70s influenced uh show um you know it took

it took the masterminds at marvel who who understand how at least shows slot together to kind of maybe um guide me to to uh you know to this sort of uh comedic tone i think when you come from comedy, you're always, you know, you're always kind of, your instinct is actually to try and walk away from comedy a little bit with the goal. With the goal that you know, you'll get it back, but I feel like, you know, yeah, that sort of grit was, again, I love Fraction and I love his, point of view. So it's not like the Fraction Run isn't also hilarious. So it's not like, I wanted to ask you about being a comedy guy in this like very action-heavy series. I saw also Heidi Moneymaker, who's a fantastic stunt coordinator, has done a lot of work for Marvel is sort of listed in the credits.

You know, what is it like for you? Forgive me if I missed something in your credits where you do have experience in this, but would it be accurate to say you don't have a ton of experience in sort of action? I, well, actually, I do have a, I did a weird show in Romania called Comrade Detective, which was actually like a 70s inspired. It was set in the 1882, Romania, but it was definitely that was. still, I think, brushing those same references. And yes, so we did have kind of crazy action in that with, but, you know, through the lens of really insane Romanian stunt coordinators and, and very little time. But yeah, we blew things up and had silly fights and things. But no, this was definitely a different level of things. And again, I kind of, you know, I think as a director, you're continually

walking into things you've never done before. I mean, that's something I sort of got used to at arsenal on a weekly basis. So I sort of, that side of things never, never feels overwhelming anymore. And I think the thing I've learned is that you kind of just, you have to just come at it with your philosophy is ultimate, you know, and because everybody's creative ultimately, but even though, yes, we're talking about action, it's still, you know, all I could do is kind of keep a North Star in terms of what was right for the tone of the show as I saw it and the story and the characters. And to me, you know, Marvel's done incredible action, like, you know, like they're kind of world leading. And so, and we're doing, you know,

this TV show. And I just sort of knew that like, look, we're never going to out Marvel, Marvel at this stuff. And to me, a good action sequence and kind of going back to those references. Like, I really enjoy story-driven action sequences and when there's, when there is humor, or you're getting character out of it. Like, those are the, you know, those are the best ones. It's like, yes, the Fast and the Furious can send a guy into space and, you know, all this kind of gravity-defying stuff. But we had these real people in these action sequences. Like they're, you know, that's the beauty of Clint and Kate is like, they do get hurt and they can't fly and they don't, you know, they don't have suits and things that are going to protect them from everything. So kind of coming at it with that point of view and, you know, and having a philosophy about the way that they fight, you know, like that Kate, Kate's trained her whole life for this.

but she's fought in, you know, with referees and one opponent at time. And so what happens when she's suddenly, you know, confronted by a bunch of bad guys who don't follow the rules and, you know, and there's an element of chaos. And so that was kind of the fun was sort of coming at it from that point of view. And Heidi was amazing at sort of, you know, really keeping an eye on that and help, you know, once we sort of established, like, let's have an honor for how this works. We'd be running with it. I think even just like the visual of Haley and the oversized Rona. suit, adds that like character comedy to those fights. I wanted to ask you, well, so there's a sequence that is not on these first two episodes,

but it was in the footage that they put out for the Disney Plus Day. I don't think it's an episode that you're credited director on maybe necessarily, but since you're an EPM, I'm going to ask you about it anyway, which is the car chase scene, which is, was a huge hit for people, I think, who saw it. They loved it. There's that great, like, sort of oneer aspect to it. And also, it's, you know, pretty directly out of the comic, which is exciting for me as a comic fan that, like, that car chase scene down to the car is like out of the comic. So, you know, this is kind of newfound territory for Marvel.

They don't usually hue this closely to a source material. I mean, I think, again, yeah, this, I mean, in my, maybe I put it down to Matt Fractionally. They just, they provided such a great, you know, kind of canvas of things that you almost couldn't help. and then David Archer as well, like just the visuals. So, you know, you're kind of lucky that you got that source material. And, and yeah, the car chase, you know, yeah, there are moments again in the show that just you sort of realize, you know, again, sometimes it was organic, you know, we're literally like the storyline is kind of taking you to, like, a place and you're like,

realize like, oh, wait, like we can, there's actually that, you know, we've somehow landed at that moment. And there were also, like, I think just highlights, yeah, in the comic, there was like, it would be great to hit. that moment, you know, like it's such a, you know, again, this is such a great character moment, or this is such a great way of showing that dynamic between the two of them that, you know, we should, you know, like, we should absolutely try and do that. Like, how do you, you know, and so I think that's really it. Ultimately, it was sort of like, if this is the best idea,

this is the best idea, you know, and let's, let's run with it. Um, and so yeah, that catch is a great example of just, you know, it's, it's a fun. It's, obviously it was like, it's an exciting sequence, but yes, it's also like this great way to show this kind of burgeoning dynamic between the two of them. And, and again, I always loved the, the, again, the fact that he was supposed to go and get a label maker to try and organize his arrows and that kind of, you know, and then the chaos of that, like that's such a funny, you know, and it's also, you know, it's such a unique thing about Clint and his trick arrows, you know, it's a great way of kind of hitting on that. So to me, that was what was important was like, if we can work that in and have fun with that

and it's, you know, it's Kate's kind of entry. You know, Kate has to take control. And it's like, it's her entry into this kind of action as well. Like it felt like a cool thing to do. So yeah, why not? I wanted to ask you thematically, you know, those of us on this podcast spend way too much time thinking about Marvel and the MC in the larger story. And as a result, we think we start seeing themes in phase four in terms of like enemies

hidden in plain sight or passing of the torch or all sorts of different things that keep popping up over and over again in these stories. how much of that, from your experience, is intentional, how much when you're putting together, and I know there was a writer's room that was existent before you came on, but when you're putting together a Hawkeye story like this, how much is Trin or someone else from Marvel saying, like, hey, we want to make sure we hit some of these bigger ideas that we're working on in this phase? There's sort of, there's character packets and things when you sort of come in and, you know,

and some storylines and things, but they do interestingly, sort of, I think, allow the shows to kind of exist within their own little sandbox for, you know, for quite a while. And sometimes the only way you find out about what might be happening in another show is just when you come in excitedly in the morning and pitch an idea only to discover that it's already happening somewhere else. And, you know, and so, and again, that happened multiple times where it's just like in the middle of the night, you're like, oh, my God, this is it.

This is the thing that's going to fix the thing. And then you come in like, yeah, no, we can't do that. It's like, it's already, you know, or sometimes Kevin will be the only one that knows that. So, you know, you might even get a few tears in and finally pitch it. And this is like, yeah, no. So, so, yeah, no, it's very much it does. That's what you're relying on is Tren and Kevin and, you know, just, yeah, they will come in with certain things. And yes, sometimes, yeah, whether it's a character crossover or, you know, a story, like, but I wouldn't say it necessarily, like,

necessarily like it was always there at the beginning. Like, again, that's what's kind of amazing about what they're doing is like, it's, you know, it's such a vast enterprise now in terms of all the shows. And I think it's kind of a moving target. And they do allow room, I think, for these shows to evolve. And it's sort of an amazing, you know, luxury slash crutch that they have that they can, you know, sort of reconfigure things once things are going. You know, like, again, this was my first experience on.

being on a show that you knew we were going to do additional photography. And so that's, you know, it's just a different mindset, ultimately. I love that about Marvel, that the reshoots are built into the whole process. And it's just sort of like, we're going to do it. So don't worry. Like, this is our rough draft. And then we will. Which is crazy.

Because, again, I've never had that luxury. And I don't trust when I've, I've been told it before. And then you don't have to get it. And so even though they were telling me, you know, sometimes like, no, no, don't worry about it. Don't sweat it. Like, you be like, yeah, let's try and get it right now. you know. Just in case.

The other character, another character that you're launching in a big way in the series is Echo, who, you know, has her spin-off show already announced, et cetera, meet her at the very end of episode two. Obviously, by the time people are listening to this, they want to spend much time with her. But like, what can you say about her and what can you say that you're, you know, sort of excited about doing with her in this show? Yeah, again, it's not just sort of, I don't want to. spoil anything, but yes, I guess we know that she has her own show. Yeah, she's this Native American

deaf character in the comics and our show, you know, there's some overlap with, you know, with our other characters that sort of comes to the fore. And yeah, you know, again, she's very unique. And again, there's a humanity to her as well that like Kate and Clint and, and, And, you know, and we get to sort of see a bit of that in her past. But, you know, I mean, I think what's cool is like we've kind of just, yeah, it's exciting. I mean, that process alone was exciting to me because I got to be a part of casting that character and sort of looking for a lot of her and auditioning her and working with her. And then, you know, and then she just realized, you know, even come down to concepting her, you know, her character's sort of costume. It's like it's such a crazy thrilling thing.

when you realize what you're doing. And I'm incredibly proud of what Alacro ended up sort of growing into as well. But yeah, I don't know. I don't want to like say it's really hard to lying to walk. I know. Don't worry about it. I get it. I saw that panic looked in your eye.

Like, how can I talk about this at all? Can you? I'm going to ask you a question if you can't say anything at all. That's fine. But, you know, in the comics historically and in the fraction run, Clint has hearing loss. there is an interesting ASL, like, sort of issue of the fraction run. And you start this series with Clint with having his hearing aids in. It seemed to me like it would be a missed opportunity to not have those two characters

who are hard of hearing interact on that subject in some way. Can you confirm that that is at least something that will be touched upon? That they interact? Yeah. No, of course, yes. That is an element and, you know, a sort of, I think, yeah, a connection point and crossover. You know, I think in a show. When we meet Echo at the end of episode two, she's sort of, it's the same shot.

I think that was in the initial trailer, which is she's like bathed in this red light. It's really beautiful and dramatic. Something that is so interesting about the fraction comic that I've never seen in another comic is, you know, Matt Hollingsworth, the colorist would sort of color block it, right? color block whole pages or sections or issues. How much should we be being attention to color blocking or color theory in your show? I think it was there. I mean, I definitely, again, I sort of chased down every bit I could find about Matt Hollisworth and his approach.

And it is a significant sort of feature of those. But I wouldn't say, you know, again, it's the real world. And I'm also weary of sort of stylizing things too much. because again, it's the MCU and it has to live in the MCU. And so I think, you know, finding sometimes that, again, it was more about grounding it. So, you know, I think where we could find parallels or things that felt warranted in terms of the texture.

But no, it wasn't necessarily sort of an intentional thing to sort of really go hard after that. But, I mean, I think color theory always comes in, you know, at a certain point you have to pick the colors in a room. Yeah. Or the color of life. So you never would end up tripping into that. Yeah. I mean, I really like the way that, like, the purple, which is such an iconic aspect of the Hawkeye aesthetic, is used.

You know, you've got like muted purples. It's not like everyone's wearing head to toe purple all the time or anything like that. You know what I mean? Well, it's an interesting thing about me is that purple's, it's genuinely my least favorite color. Like on previous productions, I've like, I've given mandates to production designers and costume designers specifically. about voiding purple, which I didn't even think about when I started talking about my whole guy, it was like, oh, crap, like, is it? So a little bit of it is, is, is that thing. I just, I've always had this issue with purple. It's like, it's, yeah. I love it. You're like,

can we tone down and everyone else like, it's the key color, Reese? No, I'm, I know, I know, I know. It was something that the, the birds would make fun of me about because, yeah, it was like, always the song, do we, you know, yeah, can we have to not do that? But that's quite, you know, We found shades of it that felt, that felt okay, I was okay with in the end. I asked this about Wanda. I asked this about Loki. Yeah, I asked us about, like, Falcon Winter Soldier. Like, if you're looking for an MCU moment scene, what have you, about Clint that you feel like most informs who his character is or who his character is in your show, like, is there in the films a moment where you're like, that's, that's Clint to me.

That's who he is. To me, I feel, I mean, there's obviously a few moments, but I think the, I mean, the most beautiful moment, I think, was obviously that scene on Bar Mere with, you know, yeah, like with Matt and just, you know, I think, I just loved that arc in end game, you know, from where he comes from and where he goes and what that sets him off on. And I think, you know, I don't know, I think the way that Jeremy performed that scene and that dynamic, you know, it just sort of, I think says so much about the price that Clint as a character sort of had to pay for, you know, but also, you know, again, his superpower is really just who he is. You know, I think that's what's amazing about Hawkeyes. Like, it's, it's not nothing else. It's just who he is. And, you know, he sort of has made choices and had to live with them.

And, you know, it's kind of high and low for him. So, yeah, this, yeah, I was, again, that Vormia scene, like, was easily, you know, I think my favorite coming out of that movie. And so, yeah, I think even being able to talk to Jeremy about that was kind of exciting for me. What was that conversation like? I mean, honestly, again, like just, again, my way into this show and what I identified infraction, I just think what kind of, I guess, my hook was, you know, again, this guy that's, you know, was really just struggling with his sense of self-worth or worthiness.

And it's like the survivor's guilt, you know? And, you know, that Nat, you know, in the movies, you know, listening, he went to a dark place when lost his family, but, you know, but ultimately, Nat sacrificed herself so that he could have it back and, and go forward. And so, you know, the idea of meeting him a few years, hence, you know, ostensibly with everything that, that, you know, he should be, you know, he should be happy and should, you know, but like, how do you, how can you be happy, you know, knowing that? And, and so, you know, Yeah, early conversations of Jeremy just about that notion and that survivor's guilt and, and, you know, and how that might, you know, when you meet Bishop, who's this number one fan,

you know, who has this other version of Hawkeye. To me, that the show was literally, it was really about identity, you know, like, again, there's, there's Hawkeye, the superhero, like the, again, the brand, Hawkeye and what that means, you know, and onto the outside world. And, and, you know, it's kind of a little bit about Clint coming to terms with that, that mantle. And the thing is Clint, is Clint Ronan or is he a whole guy? You know, and like, who does he feel, you know, and kind of him kind of understanding that or maybe coming to terms with that it doesn't have to be old darkness.

You know, like that that was interesting. And Jeremy, again, like him talking about that moment. I mean, he's such a sort of a raw guy, like in that, you know, there's real emotion that like he talks, you know, it's like you can see that that relationship somewhere is filed in his brain in a very organic way that it. It's not, you know, that it's not a story point. It's a lived in moment. And, you know, I think he sort of, you know, I think obviously the projects he's done, he's spoken to soldiers and, like, I think he understands, I think, those dynamics of that type of character.

And so, yeah, he just feels it. I mean, again, he gets emotional when he talks about it. That sort of PTSD or the cost, the heavy cost of sort of being a hero. Yeah, it's, I think that moment, you know, Rogers the musical is obviously like a fun, hilarious, like, aspect of the premiere, but that moment where we focus in on him watching the actors play Natasha and, like, the emotions that he's going through as he sees that, I think it's really powerful. Yeah, that's good.

I mean, again, I, you know, it's funny. I remember my, I think my first cut on that, I think I lived in that moment for quite a while. It's because I was just so in it. And, yeah, they're quite rightly, I think, pulled it, pulled it back. But it is. It's like, that's, you know, that was what was fun. was kind of, I think what I enjoyed about Kevin's approach was, because again, that musical was kind of like just a silly pitch from me of trying to figure out what would be. Because again,

it was like the simultaneous thing of like dealing with his emotion, but also what I found funny if I was going to sort of find the tonal thing was like Clint's kind of a crabby guy. And and so part of, you know, I think trying to find that line of comedy is like, yeah, what's going to annoy him? Like what are situations that you just would not want to be in? And I think that's what the musical felt like. So, you know, using, you know, and so again, I actually immediately sort of tried to backtrack on the musical once because I suddenly, it was almost, you know, getting out of the meeting, Kevin going like, oh, that's cool. Like, let's, yeah, I think that could be cool. Let's do it. And then I suddenly, you know, I've done some musical things and I've done theatrical. And then I was

like, hang on. I sort of processed what it would mean to actually do that. Launch a production. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of like, oh, wait, hang on. Maybe we shouldn't. And but then it was like, no, no, we're doing it. And so, but yeah, it ended up being this nice kind of, I think, hybrid moment. It reminded me there's a few shows that have done like Thrones did their play versions

of what had happened before or there's that great episode of Avatar the Last Airbender where they do like a play version of what came before. I always love those. Yeah. Yeah. What they get wrong, etc.

The fact that Ant Man wasn't there, all of that stuff. Thinking of things, what would annoy Clint? What would give us comedy grumpy, Clint. Kate is maybe a source of that in general, but also, is that why he's mixing in with the LARPERS in episode two? A little bit.

A little bit. You know, what's interesting, so again, you're going to get like the real honesty here. I think the LARPAs was actually something that came from Jerm, you know, like I think, or it was like an idea that he was really excited about that because I think it crossed over again in his real life experience of playing all guys in that, you know,

obviously the fans are a huge part of it and he's been to, you know, to Comic Con and, and so I think he wants, you know, I think he was just excited about, I think,

acknowledging that fan base, you know, in a different way. I, maybe again, coming in with my, um, overthought comedy brain,

I was kind of like weary of the Lappas because I was just felt like maybe it was going a teed are too broad and, you know, it was kind of tricky territory. And I, and honestly, I also, you know, again, the Lapa has predated me a little bit initially. And I can, I just assumed that Jeremy wouldn't be into it. And they're like, no, it's a Jeremy idea. Yeah, only to realize that actually, actually, no, Jeremy loves this. Because I, I did, I spoke to him about it. I was just like, I was like, oh, yeah, Lappas, you know, I told him. I was like, yeah, I kind of sort of resisted that. I tried, I sort of came up with some, some other things. And,

and he was like, no, you kidding me? Like, I love. that. And so, but in the end, it actually, you know, again, they sort of became this fun characters to kind of build on. And, you know, and actually those couple of days of shooting sort of that sequence was, was some of the most fun. Because, yeah, Jeremy really just let loose and that. So, yeah. Yeah, and I think you want to make sure you're not punching down at like, exactly. Yeah. I think that's what I was worried about. Essentially, it was like, and I, and I hope we, you know, I think, I think we found a line with it. Because, yeah, that was, that was the thing. I didn't, it's not, it wasn't ever about making. fun of that world. It was about just acknowledging it and embracing it. And yes, it's the last

place that you'd expect or an Avenger to be. But I also felt really exciting. It was like, what if an Avenger did walk into this, you know, world? And, you know, what, you know, what would that be like? I gassed towards the end of that sequence because, you know, a character introduced himself as grills. And I'm wondering, is that a, like an Easter egg throwaway reference or is that a character we're going to see again? Well, again, I don't want to speak to what's going to come. But, But yes, obviously Grills is a big, you know, is an element of the fraction run. So definitely, I don't think he was called Grills when I came on. I just, you know, I think, again, that was something I wanted to do was just felt like,

well, it would be great to throw that reference in. But, you know, yeah, maybe he'll come up again. Maybe he might. Maybe Grills gets his own spinoff show. You don't know. I also always pay attention when a camera lingers on a caller idea. idea and we get Kate's friend is named Greer. And obviously, like, there's Marvel characters named Greer.

Is that, once again, is that like an Easter egg or is that a pitch towards something substantial in the future? I mean, honestly, like, they're a little, you know, I mean, actually the apartment they go to, it's more Brandon's apartment as well. Yeah, no, I think they're Easter eggs. I mean, that's the thing I think, you know, again, who knows? Because I feel like sometimes these Eastererics do evolve into other things. but no I think that's what's fun again when you've got people like Tran and Kevin is like

there's such that's you know there are such deep fans of this it's that's that's what's kind of crazy is like you sort of you know there's like business brain obviously but I think more than anything there's fan brain uh to an extent that I don't know if I could ever compete and so they they just Kevin again can pluck references just out of thin air like all the time And, you know. It's so impressive because he didn't grow up with the comics. He studied them as an adult. And that's what's, you know, for, like, for people who grew up and I've just been, like,

sort of baking in this world their entire life. Yeah. That's one thing. But Kevin, like, sat down in his 20s or 30s at some point and just, like, studied it all. And that's what's really impressive and wild to me. Yeah. But again, I mean, you know, if you think about it. And again, I only got a taste of it because I was, like, got this little pocket with Hawkeye.

It is. Like, once you realize that you're actually going to be. sort of creating a little corner of this universe. Like, you do want to just start diving and, and you get greedy. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, you know, you sort of, because there's so much amazing source material,

so many crazy storylines, but also such amazing just, you know, this character, that's thing I was constantly stumbling on, like, oh, these wonderful, like, just details of these characters that, that, you know, and so it is such a deep world that I can, I mean, I feel like, yeah,

if he glimpsed the second, yeah, he glimpsed that he could be creating this, I mean, again, I'm glad that he ran with it and kept going because, yeah, it's a real privilege. There's a ton of villains in the Fraction comic. There's a ton of villains in your show already, you know, like swordsmen, et cetera, et cetera. You know, Echo is a villain, the clowns a villain, et cetera. When you have so many villainous or quote-unquote villainous, like figures bouncing around, what are you looking for as the source of menace, thematically what's the source of menace

in this show. Interesting. I mean, you know, again, not to sound so too general, but it will sound general. The source of many, I mean, it's, you know, ultimately, you know, obviously what we're kind of getting at is, you know, or we have to deal with is Clint's past. And, you know, and it's sort of the way it's echoed, you know, in the show. And I think it's twofold. I mean, a little bit of it's like, you know, bringing Kate.

To Clint just, I think, necessitates sort of a few different approaches in terms of it, you know, and I think part of the fun of the show is actually that we will kind of be playing with, you know, yeah, who is the bad guy and what do they mean? The thing is it more of a Kate thing or is it more of a Clint thing? And how do those, you know, how do those worlds collide? Because, you know, again, with it, again, the journey is about them sort of, I think, you know, it's a past, present and future type of show, you know, like you said, so we're teeing something up to the future. So it's, yeah, it's both of their worlds colliding and different iterations of menace.

But, you know, I don't know. I'm kind of answering this question. I will wishy-washy away because it's. I understand why, though. But, yeah, no, I mean, again, it's just, it's, again, it's about decisions you made and consequences and also things, you know, the way that the world is somewhat, it's always going to be out of your control to some extent as well. And again, ultimately, it's, you know, it's a journey.

for both of them to, again, sort of learn from one another and kind of criss-cross. This idea that Nat, the reason that she sacrificed herself was because Clint has a family, this idea that, like, you've got a family that you have to take care of. And I imagine that would be a strong motivator, not just because he missed them for the years that they were gone, but Clinton has to prove that, like, Nat didn't die for another. So the Barton family as an idea for him, the best. best Barton Family Christmas ever. Like, that feels important for him to pursue to make sure that she didn't die for nothing. I feel like it kind of spills over into this Kate Clint dynamic,

right? Because in the comics, it's a little muddier, but here it just feels the line between Lila to Kate feels stronger in terms of like, this is Clinton dad mode, exasperated dad mode with a young adult. You know, that idea of Clint is. dad or that idea of family. Like what, what was that? How hard did you want to hit that throughout this whole thing? Yeah.

I mean, I think it's there. I mean, I think, you know, really obviously, in a sort of more general sense, it's a mentor,

mentee thing. And I think maybe rather than characterizing it as a sort of father daughter thing, it probably becomes more like a, you know, an older brother, little sister kind of dynamic. Yes.

But I think thematically, you know, I think that connection to Lila and obviously in the first episode, you know, obviously you see a lot of concern for him knowing, you know, what that might be. And, and, you know, so I think having, you know, you need Clint, you know that Clint as a person,

like I said, is superpowers who he is, and you know that he's going to fuel this protective instinct towards this, this woman once he understands what she's entered into. And so I think, you know, again, obviously, I think thematically being able to sort of connect those two. And because you, again, Clint's this type of person that it's, yeah, trouble will always find him. And the part of the reason is is that he can't look away once it's that. And so, you know, I think, again, we just have to sort of seed that. And yeah, you kind of knew, you have to know, understand why he has to stay at a certain point. Well, thank you so much

for the chat. I really appreciate it. And hopefully I didn't put you in too many tight spots. No, I hope I did, I was, did waffle desperately trying to avoid them. No. You did a great job. Well, friends, Joe was handing out the monogram butterscatch. And so it's Time to wrap today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our favorite bros, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal and T.Di, St. Matthew Daniel, for their additional production work on this episode.

And Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to follow the ringerverse on Spotify, wherever you get your pods, follow the ringerverse across our social feeds, and head back into the ringerverse. Next week for Hawkeye, episode three pods from The Midnight Boys. Pugh! I'm here on House of Ar.

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