House of R - ‘Black Mirror’ Season 7 and ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Episode 8

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

Mal is joined by Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin to talk about the highs and lows of ‘Black Mirror’ Season 7. Later, they dive into Episode 8 of ‘Daredevil Born Again’ (1:26:38). Host: Mallory Rubin Gusts: Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Video Supervision: Jonathan Frias Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on Paramount Plus. Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today to ask whether kissing dogs and jackets in Brooklyn was on today's schedule. It's our Daniel Blake's. It's Daniel Chin. It's Ben Lindberg. They are coming to me in person, together in the Spotify, New York offices. We have a lot to cover today and not a lot of time,

so I don't want to go on too long of a spiel right away. But let me just say, I have worked with Benjamin Limburg for, I believe, 13 years. I can count on one hand the number of times that he has left his apartment. I was going to say taken off the sweatpants jeans, but I don't know. You might be wearing them. I can't see your legs, so I shouldn't presume.

And gone electively to be with other people in the flesh. at a corporate space. So what a monumental occasion. Daniel was like, guys, can I go to the office? I got peer pressured into this, to be clear, but happy to go along. Beautiful office space we have here. Who knew? No one told me. Yeah. Everyone else knew. Not you. Did you hear about all the snacks? I sampled some of them. I got my guest pass going. This is one of the only times probably in recorded history is that we both have been outside of our homes at the same time in different places, but still. I know. Did you manage to bring your. Your dog with you? Is Grum there? No, I thought about, yeah, bringing Grumkin to do kind of a Bozeman cameo, but she doesn't like to travel any more than I do, so I spared her. Well, we all really appreciate your sacrifice. I'm thrilled to be here with both of you today. Joe is still on vacation. And so we, the three of us have assembled to talk about a couple different things.

One, the new Black Mirror season. Black Mirror Season 7 just dropped. We are going to chat about it. And also, the pen ultimate episode of Daredevil Born Again aired this week. So we were going to chat about episode eight. That is a total. of seven episodes of television, and so we will not be deep diving on any of it. We will be toe-dipping today. Before we get into all of the particulars, some quick programming reminders, because the feeds are popping, as always. There's a lot going on.

How's far? Monday. Joanna and I will have our Last of Us, season two, episode one, deep dive. It's Last of Us season. The entire Ringervor's family is overjoyed, elated, thrilled. So check out that deep dive on Monday.

On Tuesday, we will be covering the Yellow Jacket Season 3 finale. And then on Thursday, we will be diving into the Daredevil finale. So it's a robust House of Our Week coming next week. Over on the Ring ofverse. The Midnight, boys. Poo-Pew! All right, Ben was ready. Daniel wasn't, but that's okay.

That's okay. That's okay. By the end of the pot, if they come up again, you'll be prepared. Next time. Also, Last of Us time. The season two premiere pod, the guys will have their coverage up for the premiere on Sunday night.

So that is a treat to look forward to as soon as Last of Us ends, the guys will be there. Wednesday, the Midnight Boys. Pew, Poo, Pew, Pew. Daniel's still not ready. A little late. You got it.

I was looking down. We're warming up. Daredevil finale time. And then, guys, speaking of last of us, tell everybody what you've got cook in not only next Thursday, but all season long. Give us a little tease. Yeah, we were concerned that we weren't covering the last of us season two enough as a company with only what, four other

podcasts covering it. So we will also be jumping in. This is the dream team right here on button mash every week. Probably the last time we'll actually be in person to talk. I'm sure. Unless, you never know. Maybe this is the new me. What if you love it? What if you love this experience? Yeah, I can't go back. And you like insist on being there every week from now on. Wide selection of spin-drift here, you know. Yeah. But, uh, for First thing, Thursday morning, we will have button mashes up about each Last of Us season two episode, and we'll be kind of covering it from a gaming adaptation perspective, which I know you'll be touching on on House of our also, but we'll be diving deep on that aspect of things. So we'll be spoiling stuff. It's for people who know what's going to happen or have played the game or don't care about being spoiled.

And we'll do a little compare and contrast and speculation. The gamer's guide to the Last of Us universe is honestly something that I cannot wait for. I'm thrilled. By the way, let's just say, Daniel, you're going to be writing about The Last of Us every single week on the ringer.com. What a great website. I'm excited, you know, and there's going to be a little bit of an overlap between Daredevil right now because I'm still recapping Daredevil. But it's great. There's a lot of good content out there right now, especially for the Ring Reverse crew. I'll be editing Daniel's recaps.

We're teaming up all over the place. Will I be editing your end or recaps? Who can say? That's also only a week and a half away. Probably not, but we'll talk about it. Maybe. Dare to Dream, the first one, probably. What a time.

Earning Tendrils, lots of content. Okay, let's get to our spoiler warning for today. We are going to talk about, as we said, all of Black Mirror, season seven, there are six episodes in this new season. All of them could come up today. We're not going to go super in depth on any of them, but we will talk about the plot particulars from all of the episodes at some point today. So if you have not yet watched the new season of Black Mirror, hit pause. Go watch all six hours of that. It's actually, I think, a little bit more than six hours.

of these were, yeah, quite a lot. These are long, Stranger Things level episodes at this point. Yeah. Yeah, a couple of them were short, but some of them were quite long. And then come back and join us for this conversation.

Also, anything that has ever happened in Black Mirror previously could come up today. For Daredevil, episode eight, all of Daredevil born again, anything that happened in the Netflix Daredevil universe, anything that has ever happened in the MCU and anything that has ever happened in comics could, in theory, come up today. So that's a pretty wide and sweeping. Spoiled a warning, but also if you clicked into a Black Mirror and Daredevil Potty, you're fine. You're ready. Let's go. All right, guys, we're going to start with Black Mirror. And before we talk about the new season, let's just like table set, both with each other and with the bad babies who are listening.

What is everybody's respective history with Black Mirror? Like before Season 7, put a pin in that for now. What's your relationship to the show over the years? Ben, let's start with you. I'd describe myself as a little bit of a lapsed Black Mirror fan until this week. You messaged me last week to ask if I was watching Black Mirror and I said, I used to. I'm so proud of myself for getting it like a week ahead. Yeah, you did give me time to catch up. Yeah, barely. But yeah, I was very in the first four seasons, as I think most people were.

And then after that, it got to a point of just feeling like, okay, I get it. I get Black Mirror. I think I get what you're going for here. It was kind of a combination of a little bit of repetitiveness, maybe, just that sense of, you know, it's like you have your whole life to write your first album and then you have a year to write your second album and you have a bunch of great ideas stored up for the first one. And then there's a little recycling maybe that goes on, a little remixing. So it felt like the quality was starting to decline a little when we got to season five. And then I guess it was also just a little bit of the world feeling more dystopian. As it was, I felt like I needed Blackmere a little less, both politically, technologically,

which was a testament to the show that it was sort of prescient. Every day of our real lives, we were in a Black Mirror episode. Dismayed. I don't need fictional stories about how phones are destroying everything because we're living it. So it was a little bit of that. And then just long gaps between seasons, which is the norm now. But it was a couple years before season two. And then, what, four years between, I guess, before season five, it was a couple

years. There you go. Another thing Black Mirror anticipated how long it takes make every season of a television show. And then it was four years, I think, between five and six. And I just fell off at a certain point. And I thought I was out and then you pulled me back in. There you go. I Godfather three memed you. Okay. That's exciting. Well, we're glad to have you back. Daniel, what is your history with in relationship to Black Mirror? I was resonating with that a lot because my experience was very similar. I feel like season five was probably where I tapped out. And like at that point, I probably would see like a couple of episodes each season. But early on, I used to be really into Black Mirror. Like, I feel like especially, like, some of the first episodes were, like, very iconic and, like, just, like, hit this sweet spot of, like, being really unnerving.

But, like, having, like, some message out there. Like, and they would always be, like, a few years ahead of, like, something that would happen. And you're just, like, damn, like, they saw this coming. But, yeah, once it got a little bit further down the line, I, like, tapped out. And, like, season six, I only watched. the episodes that I ranked in like our site ranking of the Black Mirror episodes. But when you mentioned it, I like watched this and I, I mean, we'll get into it more, but I enjoyed a lot of them.

So I'm glad to be back into it. And the idea was a return to form or at least a return to the OG Black Mirror British era of the show, sort of. So that was a compelling pitch for me to think, okay, maybe this is the time to dive back in. Yeah, still a larger American incursion than in the early years, certainly. But yes, the combination of the return to some of the British spirit And also, as we'll talk about more in a few minutes, a return to a little bit of the tonal vibe and sensibility like that,

but more so the type of story Black Mirror was interested in exploring. So I'm eager to chat with you guys about that. To just continue to establish this like tapestry of our relationship to the show, I want to hear from everybody. I'll say for me like I've always loved Black. Black Mirror, even the seasons, I think that even the best Black Mirror seasons are inside of them full of variance, right? Like, I think that for the first four seasons, like each one of them contained an iconic historic Pantheon Hall of Fame. Like, we'll all be talking about it until we have been uploaded to the cloud by a Tucker robot episode, but also some episodes that were either like outright duds or just not of that same caliber. But yeah, you know, like everybody else, I think the relationship to five and particularly six. I was less enthused, but I still watched every season in real time and really have always anticipated the arrival of a new Black Mirror season. It's just something I genuinely look forward to.

And I think Charlie Brooker is such an interesting mind and such an interesting writer and creator. And I always find it fascinating to hear him talk about the show and what he thinks people understand or don't understand about the show that he was making. I was actually just listening to there was like a very brief little interview on NPR to pair with the arrival of season. And I'm paraphrasing, but he was basically like, yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated when people describe Black Mirror as a warning. And I was waiting for him to say something shocking because it's like, how could you not view it that way? But then he's like, to me, it's more about worrying. Like, okay, so we're really parsing the nuance and the subtleties there in that distinction.

But, you know, the way that he talked about in that interview on NPR and just also more broadly, like, that it's obviously so much of the story in the world and the universe of exploration is rooted in fear. paranoia and what do humans do when they are put into position to use or warp or control, something that probably should never have existed in the first place, and certainly that we should never have gotten our hands on to that level. But that it's not necessarily, in his intention, like tech phobia. It's actually that he has like a passion for an interest in technology and then the way that it roots its way into our world. So it's just to me always been like such a fascinating thing. And I like the idea that we, I mean, the three of us are quite different ages.

Ben and I are old and wash. Daniel's young and in the bloom of youth. But, you know, the idea. So what does it mean to say our generation? But like, let's just be very liberal with that. You know, the idea of like our generation's twilight zone and this like, you know, fairly popular and mainstream bit of culture that can like provide a portal into this really heady and heavy ideas. I just think it's so cool. So I love that the show is still going.

I love that we have it. I have my favorite episodes, I will say, and I asked you guys if you have favorite episodes. And I guess I'm not shocked that we have quite a bit of overlap on our list. But let's quickly run through these as well. Daniel, give us your top three to five. You can go to six or seven if you want, but you can also just say here's one I like, and I have no other opinions on this side. Yeah, yeah. So top three, I mean, this is where the overlap is for you, not to spoil your answers, but the San Junipero be right back and the entire history of you. I think I really lean heavily towards the earlier episodes of Black Mirror. I don't even remember which season San Juan Pera was.

Is that three or four maybe? Three, yeah. Three. Yeah, yeah. But I was, like, looking through, like, our ranking of a lot of the episodes. And honestly, like, a lot of them, like, didn't really click for me. Like, I would have to look up what the log line was to remember exactly what happened. But, like, with these three episodes, I felt like,

after seeing them, they really, like, stuck with me. Like, I haven't seen the entire history of you in many, many years. But just the way that they kind of used that technology and tell that story, what, like, has still, like, I still think about that, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ben, what's your top three to five?

Yeah, I tried to vary it up a little bit because it would have been. No, be true to your heart. Don't work on us. Or identical. But, yeah, I mean, obviously, you have to have San Juanapiro on there. Because I think as much as Black Mirror's associate, with dystopian terrible endings. I think we like the lighthearted side of Black Mirror in a relative sense.

It's usually not a fully happy ending, but that one comes kind of close. So it's nice as just a palette cleanser, change of pace when it's not totally dark and disturbing. So I would definitely put San Juan DiPero, USS Callister, which another classic, of course, that we have a sequel to now to discuss. And just to vary it up a little bit, I put White Christmas on there, which was Christmas special. That was the last of the channel four pre-netflix era Black Mirror. And it was kind of a supersized, like three different storylines, John Hamm, crossovers between a lot of those. Sort of scary and dark. Oh, yeah.

Sort of. Yeah. Very scary and dark. But yes, thought-provoking. and went in a number of different directions. And then I put nosedive on my list, too, which is also one of the, I mean, deeply disturbing, but also kind of comedic at times

because it was co-written by Mike Scher and Rashida Jones, who shows up, of course, in season seven in front of the camera. This is the one with the kind of rating system of everything and Bryce Dallas Howard, and we're constantly grading every social interaction, which wasn't even so much pressure. as it was just, I think Mike Scher described it as a parallel universe, if anything, because that's, that's more or less real life. But it had a pastel colored look that was sort of different for the series. So, you know, there are a lot of episodes that are sort of in the same vein, like the classic Black Mirror episode that we say in real life when we say that something is Black Mirror-esque where it's kind of crossed over to the culture. But this is like that in some respects, but also different also.

Okay, I like it. I'm curious to know what you would have put on your list if you didn't feel that our lists prevented you from doing so. The same ones. Yeah, be right back. Entire History of You probably would have been on there also. Yeah, so as is perhaps now clear, my top five includes San Juan Napero, be right back, and the entire history of you as well. Those are my three favorite episodes. I think that the way I feel about them is like I'm always open to something new entering my life and wowing me.

and I always hope that happens when I watch a new thing. But I feel like that's an untouchable top three until I die. Like, those are just three of the best episodes of television ever made. I personally think that San Juan Juna Paro is, like, my second favorite episode of TV ever after Winds of Winter. I just absolutely love it. And I think Be Right Back and entire history of you are just gorgeous and harrowing and, like, work their way into you, much like that grain that you would embed into your head. and I carry them with me and think of them often. I, to your point, Ben, about the way that we can gravitate toward that little, like, kernel of hope, you know, I remember when season four came out, Jason and I did a binge mode weekly episode on it.

And, you know, we framed it as, like, love and longing in the digital dystopia. And, like, one of the episodes, even though that was the Callister season, the episode in real time that, like, I found myself really gravitating for. was hang the DJ because it was kind of in that mold of like, okay, everything is so grim and so unrelentingly bleak, but like what if love could find a way? And I think because of the general tonal tapestry of Black Mirror when you get an episode like that, it just like, I don't know, it feels like this little life raft in the storm

in a way that I really admire and appreciate and don't think, not only doesn't dilute the overall kind of like message and moral. And I was going to say warning, but I guess I should say worry of the show, but actually kind of like amplifies it because you have like a point of contrast there. That said, when I was putting together my top five here, Hang the DJ got bumped because I've always really liked Callister,

but I in real time was not like quite as, oh my God, we have a new instant classic as the rest of the internet seemed to be. But that is how I felt about it rewatching. I was like, this is just a total banger. Like what an incredible episode of TV. Obviously the performances are unbelievable. So I've got, I've got Sandra Naparo, be right back, entire history of you, USS Callister, and then PlayTest rounds out my top five.

That's the Wyatt Russell episode also from that great stretch. John Walker. Yeah, I, it's a different vibe than a lot of the rest of my list. Like, I think that is one of the most disturbing. I almost don't want to spoil the end of it for people who maybe haven't seen it. But it is just so deeply upsetting and unmooring. And one of the things, this will come up today, I think, as well, but that I'm really interested in in Black Mirror and, like, storytelling in general is,

can you trust your own mind? And what if the answer is no? And I just really like kind of dabbling in that space. I think that's a great episode. So, okay. Yeah. Yeah. We could do a whole button mash probably on the video game specific episodes of Black Mirror. You should? Not the greatest reflection on the medium generally. That might come up today. That might come up today, Yeah, multiple game-specific inspired episodes this season. So it's a mixed bag on the whole, I would say. But yes, all these ones that we're all naming are kind of just foundational texts for the series that feels like a lot of the latter episodes are either explicitly responding to or are actual sequels to or spiritual sequels to

or are sort of borrowing elements from, whether intentionally or unintentionally certain technologies, just the idea of your consciousness being uploaded to something, embedded in something. It's sort of themes that the series plays with over and over again. And I think maybe most effectively the first time in a lot of cases. So that goes to a lot of these. That's one of the things I'm really interested in hearing from you guys about today because, you know, season, in the earlier days of Black Mirror, there was like a still enough room to say, oh, are all of these even in the same universe? and like, you know, all of the different versions of a nubbin or a green or whatever it's called

in a given episode that you'd put on the side of your head, like, okay, Tucker Soft and then T-C-K-R, like, okay, but you start to build it. And then at a certain point, undeniably, you're just, like, seeing updates on news broadcasts about figures from other episodes, including a truly just sensational one in the season that I'm excited to talk about later today. But to that point then, you start to wonder like, okay, where are we in the sequencing and chronology and evolution of the tech? And do I need to be thinking about that actively? And then if I start to think about it too actively, is that actually good for my experience of just like consuming and enjoying the show and thinking about the message inside of each story? How often do you want to go to the same pool? How often do

you want something radically new? And how much of the point of sci-fi as it interrogates where we currently are in society or what is to come is like it's not really about always saying exploring something new and different it's actually sometimes about the undeniable of a certain creeping force right and so i'm sort of open to black mirror playing in the same sandbox as long as it feels fresh enough and i think that's part of why like for me um even though season five was not nearly as successful I still thought season six felt like a drastic overcorrection. This idea of like red mirror and shifting to more of a like horror genre focus. Some of the season six episodes are my least favorite episodes of Black Mirror, period.

And I just didn't think it worked. There were like a couple good episodes still. You know, shout out Aaron Paul and Josh Arnold, like that one always, obviously. But it just didn't work. And then to go to season seven, which is like Ben, as you were teeing up, not only a return to form, but kind of a doubling down. We're not just going to go back to the same type of episode we used to do before. We're actually going to have two of these six be some version of a sequel. USS Callister Into Infinity is a literal sequel.

We pick up with the characters where we left off. And this is like the second episode of a series that could just be made about the Calster, which they probably should do because this was also super fun. play thing, not to be confused with playtest, but obviously the similar names is part of what you're identifying, Ben, about, hey, we've got our video game, a slice of this universe, is people are calling it a Bandersnatch sequel. I think that's, like, slightly misleading.

It is, I would describe it more as, like, a Bandersnatch connected tissue. Now, look, Will Poulter is back, and it's the same character, right? Like, Colin Ritman is here, so yes, okay, in that sense, a video game story that features the same performer playing the same character at the same video game company. Sure, you could call it a sequel. But I think if people hear Bandersnatch sequel, they're going to think that they're getting something different than what a play thing ultimately is or seeks to be.

I have two questions for you guys about this. One, given that season six was not really a part of your life, like, how do you feel about this like return and doubling down and sequelification of Black Mirror? What do you think that signals about the longevity of the show, the viability of the show, and focus of the show movies? forward. Did you like that part of it? Do you want more of Black Mirror to feel that way? Are you like, okay, I can't necessarily say that season, the conversation around season six moved me to consume all of it. But maybe let's not give up on trying something new next time.

And then the second equally important question is, has either of you played thronglets, which is the video game companion that they released to pair with Plaything? Benjamin. I have not played it. because I watched the episode. And why would I want to after that? Not the best advertisement for the game. It seems like a beautiful bond, no? You're not ready to drill a hole in the back of your head?

Maybe. But yeah, the Netflix video game strategy is fascinating because they keep kind of waffling back and forth between what are they as a video game company and now part of it is just we're going to make tie-in games to our shows and this is one of them. But I think in general, I guess it makes sense given that there's a larger library here

and the show has been around for a while, and so enough time has elapsed that they can actually revisit some of these things. But I guess I'm generally anti-sequel, or I guess in moderation maybe. And, you know, you could have something that's between a sequel and an Easter egg, like we were just saying,

with the Bandersnatch semi-spinoff sort of tie-in. But I guess you could say it's an indication of maybe a lack of inspiration if your best idea is, hey, let's return to the idea. that we had a few seasons ago, doesn't necessarily mean that there's not more story to tell, but I would love to see them just continuing to strike off in new directions. Then again, if what I've been saying about how they do seem to circle back to some of the same

themes and tropes and kind of unintentionally remake things, I guess if they're going to keep doing that, they might as well just make it an explicit sequel. But I would say, yeah, you know, it kind of becomes like a playing the hits sort of thing where you go to see the band play the album in its entirety that you like from your youth, but also you kind of wish that they were making good music that's new. Yeah. Daniel, what about you? Yeah, I mean, for me, like, going back and looking at all of the episodes that there were, I feel like USS Calster is really the only one that makes sense as a sequel,

in part because of the way it ended, the first episode ended, they have them, like, going through the wormhole. It feels like they already were anticipating that they could pick this up, Like for another episode one day. Yeah. Yeah. And like for a lot of these other ones, they, they end like very, it's an ending. Like there's no returning to some of these.

And they make sure that. But to Ben's point, too, I think they have been trying to evoke a lot of the ones that worked well. Like San Juan DiParo, for example. Like, we all have that in our top five, top three. And I think they've just been trying to chase that high like ever since. And like a lot of, like, a couple of episodes in this season too, there's a lot of like trying to go for that.

kind of vibe where it's not the disturbing thing, but you're really feeling, like, impacted by what's happening in terms of emotional story, storyline, and just how technology isn't always necessarily bad, and there could be something like, it's good to come out of it, like something, like healing, you know? I think for the word Ben used moderation is, I think, how I feel about the sequelification of Black Mirror.

Like, I thought doing a Callister sequel was appropriate, and I'll spoil one of my later picks. Like, I just, I do actually just, want them to do it again and can keep making Callister episodes. Let me say this. Let me get it on the record. If they ever make a San Juan Nupero sequel, We Riot. Like, it can't happen. It can't be allowed. No.

And I don't anticipate that that would happen, but that is like a precious, perfect thing that must be preserved in amber. if it ever got to the point of like reopening the intact chambers, these little TV miracles, that would be deeply dismaying to me. So I think as long as the either strands of like bandersnatchy connective tissue or flat out, let's play in that calister sandbox again. If we can limit it to that, I am not like totally opposed to it. I think what is it? It's not like exactly like bringing back Robert Downey Jr. levels of like, oh boy, have we run out of all ideas?

That's for some fodder for another podcast. But, like, you know, of course, I think, yeah, it's reasonable to wonder what that may be signals. But if it's a dabble instead of a deluge, I'm not sure I'm, like, totally opposed, but I would hope that we continue to proceed with caution. You know, pick your spots, I would say, because we're so inundated in sequels everywhere else that my stance would be let the anthology show just be an anthology show. Yeah. But every now and then when it makes sense. And Callister, I think the way that it ended the first episode, would. was also great. And if there had never been another, I would not have felt like it was in any way

incomplete. It would have just been left to our imaginations what happened next. But obviously, they were interested in revisiting this over the past eight years in various different forms. So I'm not surprised that they did that and there could be more. But I think, yeah, there are times. Some of them, there's a twist, like a San Juan Juipero. A twist is a big part of it. And so how do you do a sequel once everyone knows the twist? You know, there's sort of a spiritual successor to that. episode I think Brooker has even said, which is actually my favorite episode of this season, as I will get to soon. Yeah, I'm interested to talk about that one. Yeah, that's going to be a controversial pick, I think.

I think it's going to be less controversial than you think, actually. Okay, all right. But maybe. I also, I wonder, I mean, this is Brooker's baby. It's his thing. And he has said that he could keep it going indefinitely. But I do wonder whether there's something to be said for opening it up a little more to other creators. Obviously, you know, he's had co-credits and other people have done scripts and story ideas,

but it's still primarily him. And, I mean, he's earned the right to keep making this, I think, as long as he wants to do and as long as people want to watch it. But I'd be interested in sort of franchising it out or at least like making the tent a little bigger, maybe. Just if he's running low on ideas one year, then see who else has sort of a Blackmure-esque idea that's a little less of a retread. This is your sequel.

Let more people in the writer's room. This is your Star Wars take. This is your big thing with pop culture right now. I mean, it's a great point too. With something like this, it could theoretically go on forever, too. There's obviously always going to be more technology and more commentary to come and just things that are happening. And just the nature of the anthology format, I think it's always been kind of the problem. And the good thing about Black Mirror, too, is it's always been a little bit hit or miss for that reason.

Like, to your point earlier, to your point earlier, Matt, Mount, like, There was just every season, I feel like it's had a few misses. But to me at least, as we've gone further down the line, there's been more misses than not. Yeah. I think also like Black Mirror is not, it's like it's near term dystopian paranoia and examination, right? Like we're not, it's very rare that Black Mirror feels like it's something that's 60 years in the future. It's like often like, okay, well, this could probably just be our life in six months in two years. And I think that simultaneously makes it like a richer vein to tap and like kind of a harder one when it does feel like the world is actually melting in real time around you always.

Because what is the commentary and what is the examination of the thing that feels more dire than just our actual circumstances? So in terms of the like long term viability of it, that'll be interesting to track. It's a good season 8 pitch, though. Just far future Black Mirror. Just go forward. Yeah. I mean, far future Black Mirror season eight, Cold Lotus season four. Put the Dutton's in space at some point.

Crossover. Yeah. All of it. All of it. Okay. What did you guys think about season seven? Let's get into season seven. Start with a little table setting for just how you felt about the season overall. Like, did this feel to you like a successful season? season of Black Mirror, did it feel to you like a return to form? We're going to get into some of the particular episodes. We have some kind of like rapid fire superlative categories coming. But how does you,

how does you feel about the season overall, Daniel? For me, I did not like the first two episodes at all. And for like, as I was coming back to the show, I was like, damn, this is, this is why I stopped watching this show. But when I started getting to the latter half of the season, I actually started to really enjoy it again. It reminded me of why I fell in love with this show in the first place. So it's tough for me in terms of return to form because I've been off of it for two seasons. But again, like a lot of the latter half of the season, I felt like this is why it worked in the first place to me.

Okay. Ben, how about you? I'm with Daniel on the slow start on the, when I got back in, hoping that it was going to be both reminiscent of the glory days, but then also hopefully original in some sense. and then didn't feel like that initially. And I also thought, yeah, this is why. But I got into it, too. I would say that the highs are not as high as the early seasons,

but the lows are also not as low. That's how I feel about it too. It's a lower ceiling, higher floor season, I think. Exactly. Yeah. It feels like Black Mirror, you know, sometimes too much, I would say, in that you could kind of, you know, what you envision when I say it's.

like Black Mirror, it is that essentially, especially the first episode, which I think we differ on because you like that one. And Daniel and I were down on that one. So I just talk about it, yeah. Yeah, it felt like a little bit of remixing actual sequel, but then stacked cast this season, maybe more so than ever potentially. So that helps, even if you're working with some of the same story building blocks, if you have this cast acting it out, then it's worth revisiting. So I'm not sorry that you pulled me back in.

Great. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. Yeah, I think like I said, maybe lower ceiling, but higher floor it felt. I still like in any season, tons of variants. I liked a lot of the episodes more than I liked others. But the two to three that I would consider in the mix for my favorite episode of the season, none of them are sniffing my top, probably not top 10, certainly not like top seven or eight. And I don't know that I would put any of these in like the bottom 10 episodes of Black Mirror either. So that's kind of interesting. Like I, in some ways I think that's, okay, this was like a fairly compelling and enjoyable season of TV to watch. I had fun. And in other ways, I think part of why I've always like not minded that high variance inside of a Black Mirror season is because like sometimes when you're trying to hit a home run, you strike out, right? Like I think that sometimes the variance can stem from taking these really bold, ambitious. just swings. So I'm willing to be patient with some misses if it means we get some really

exceptional things. I think we should get right into our favorite. And we do have, we have a different, we all have different picks here. You guys have some overlap. I'm coming in hot, I think, based on what you've just said about how you felt about the start of the season. But my favorite episode of the season, I will say, like, this is definitely one. I've left prior Black Mirror seasons. And I'm like, not only is this my favorite episode. entire history review, be right back. San Juan and Parra. Like I said earlier,

nothing will touch it. It's just so clear in my heart and my head what the best episode of the season was. That's not how I felt about this season. Like the one that you guys picked was, I considered picking as well. I also, and I won't say what that is, I'll let you reveal it,

but I also considered picking a third episode entirely. But when I rewatch it, will my answer here change entirely possible? Right now, just after the first experience, with season seven. I think the one that it's not my favorite for the same reason my other Black Mirror episodes are my favorite, but like I think the one that I've been thinking about the most since I watched it, like the one that feels like it got its hooks in me the most successfully, and made me feel

like really sick and nauseous and just disturbed and dismayed in a way that I think is like really a Black Mirror's magic trick, right, is common people, the first episode of the season. I, like, am going to have a hard time, I think, not enjoying an episode of television that stars Rashida Jones, Chris O'Dowd, and Tracy Ellis Ross. I mean, talk about, like, you guys already tease the incredible casting, but holy shit, like the starring trio of this episode, they're just like some of my favorite performer. So I do think that was part of it.

But this episode, Mike and Amanda and Rivermind. to that earlier discussion point of like Black Mirror feels sometimes really close, this is just like tomorrow, right? Like Riverminds tech and servers in your brain, I don't know, but in terms of an episode of Black Mirror, interrogating where we are in the capitalistically driven gig economy of constantly needing to upgrade your, subscription or your tears or what you're buying in on a streaming service or in a game or any

aspect of your life in order to not only be able to like enjoy something but in this case like literally function and survive and certainly where we are currently politically politically with our health care system like this just was like I don't know I found it very resonant and like haunting and again that's not necessarily what I usually leave a black Black Mirror season saying that was my favorite. I'm like, oh my God, these people decided to be together forever, like, for all of eternity. How lovely, that's kind of what I like. And what Black Mirror makes me feel that way. So this is really different from what I would normally pick, but I left it feeling like a pit in my chest and in my stomach. And I think it's impressive that the show made

me feel that way. So yeah, that just like stood out to me, I think as a creative achievement, though, again, just so upsetting that I think actually a lot of people were really not like watching it. Favorite is maybe an odd term, but I think it was an achievement that episode. And I just also had fewer notes on it, I think. Like the one that you guys were going to pick, there was like a reason that I, two reasons that I couldn't bring myself to pick it ultimately, even though I liked a lot of other things about it. And I didn't kind of have those same, oh, this is the case against it,

reasons for common people. But you guys did. So I'm curious to hear why. why was common people not an episode that you guys liked? Tell me. Tell me. We can actually just kind of combine the first two categories because Ben, this is like your, and Daniel, your pick for least favorite, which is our next category. So let's just do least favorite and favorite together. Why was my favorite, your least favorite? Tell me. I thought it was very well acted. I cared about this couple very much. And it was pretty heartrending. I guess it was, I kind of tend not to like the Black Mirror episodes that are very much like. This is something that is already happening, but just turned up a notch. Yeah. Because, you know, it just feels a little less inventive. Like, this is, for those who haven't seen it, this is the one where Rashida Jones's character has a brain tumor.

You know, she's on life support or near death. And there's a subscription service that essentially streams her brain, her consciousness, so that she can go back to functioning. But then they continually upsell them on the streaming tiers and downgrade their service, et cetera. And you drive out of your city without being turned off. What happens if you start spouting an ad in the middle of your elementary school? They shut her down to sleep more, which sounds great, but it's not very restful sleep. It's never restful.

It's sleep mode. See, I found that so disturbing. I was like, I don't know. This feels to me like eerie in a way that I think your point, Ben, is really valid. But I found it for some reason in this episode, it didn't bother me. and it actually felt like it like amplified and tuned up and turned up something that like really warrants assessment and discussion right now. So yeah, I think I like admired it. But I guess, yeah, I kind of felt like I knew where it was going once we got into it also.

Which was part of the problem. It's like I see I see where this is headed. No way good. So that was a little bit of it, a little bit of just, you know, again, harkening back to previous episodes or fielding like an amalgamation of other Black Mirror episodes. potentially. I think just all of that combined to make me feel like, oh, yeah, this is the sort of thing I've seen before and didn't really make me think about something that I haven't already complained about or thought was dystopian in real life. Yeah. Yeah, it was all of that, I guess. And also just, you know, it's a downer, which, like, you're watching Black Mirror, it's not a feel-good story,

usually, but the first two episodes of the season do culminate in people, like, being driven to take their own lives. And, you know, you have to kind of be in the right headspace to watch those episodes, whereas some of the later episodes are, you know. A little more cheerful. Yeah, not exactly uplifting, but kernels of hope. To be fair, the most cheerful, quote, unquote, episode of this season, the plot device is a funeral. Just to be clear, this is like, This is not a happy season of TV. Yeah. Daniel, anything else about why common people didn't work for you

before we talk about which ones you guys picked for your fave? I felt a lot of the same things that Ben was just talking about because I feel like when the technology like hits a little bit too close to home, it's kind of on the nose. And in terms of the storytelling, I feel like you can just tell where it's going to be going. Like each time they're coming back into the office for RiverMind, like they're going to raise the price.

They're going to add some plus, some, new tier to it. And I felt similarly with the whole subplot of the dumb I was about to say dumb Benny. Oh yeah. Dumb Benny. That's even for Daredevil.

The dumb dummies for the whole streaming thing. It's like, oh, the co-workers is doing this. He's going to start doing this. The co-worker's going to find out kind of thing. So you're kind of just waiting for the characters to catch up to it. And it's tricky because it's like with only an hour of storytelling, I think you have to do some of those things where you are foreshadowing

those types of setups for the story to develop later on. but it's very easy for the audience to pick up on, like, exactly what they're going to do. Yeah, I think the, I did feel that with the like, okay, we're going to end up, he's going to drink his own piss. And he's going to drink his own piss. Boy, we're putting on that glove and we know where that, we know where the finger's going, guys. Yeah. Taking off masks is a common theme, though.

Taking off them, exactly. I thought, I did, I felt with the Rivermind subscription tier part of it that the fact that none of that was surprising was actually part of the commentary, right? Like this was not an episode about the twist or the surprise. For me, it felt more like that slow march toward inevitable doom was the thing that we were meant to really sit in and think about. And that I agree with you guys that like doesn't always work for me in a Black Mirror episode actually, but for some reason it did here. But let's talk about which ones you guys loved. Ben, you had a couple that you were, I think, torn between. But one of them was also Daniel's pick.

So why don't we start with that one? Let's talk about eulogy. Yeah. Well, maybe I'll let Daniel. talk about that one because I think ultimately probably my second favorite and since this way we can talk about different episodes at least. So I think, yeah, I'll go with Hotel Reverie, which Now this I think is a controversial pick. That's, yes, that's what I was suggesting. I thought you were talking about eulogy. Okay. No, I don't think this will be a common sentiment, but I really like this

episode. I think this is the one largely in black and white where there's a remake of this classic you know, brief encounters Casablanca style classic, and Issa Ray is playing a character. It's sort of gender swapped and she's inserted into the original film and she has to follow the script and things very quickly run off the rails. This is the second longest episode of the season after the Callister sequel, potentially a little too long. I would be receptive to that feedback. Undeniably, too. I rarely feel that way, as you guys know. I'm such a glutton.

I'm like, make every episode of TV three and a half hours and make every season, 20 episodes again. Well, that's a given. That's a given. But yeah. I could say that's part of the theme of the episode because you said get stuck in the movie for a very long time. But I don't know if that was intentional. Yeah, it could have been trimmed maybe. I guess it's partly that I like old movies.

I like classic Hollywood cinema and all the movies that this was evoking and the black and white. And you love that we live in an eye. streaming wars era where it's all content and the AI is going to take over and you love all that. Yeah, this is, I mean, it's hardly the first. I mean, you know, this is basically like a Star Trek holodeck sort of scenario or, you know, there have been other black mirrors that are sort of reminiscent of this or Brooker, this is the one that Brooker said was sort of a spiritual sequel to Sand Junipero, which speaks well of it, at least in my mind. I would say he should not have said about this is how I personally feel. Just because it can't measure, it's like can't measure up. No. It is not.

It is unfair, I guess, to put it on that pedestal too. Yeah, that raises expectations too high. But I think the, some of the, like, tech stuff is, you know, even by black mirror standards, just a little, like, far-fetched or lots of techno-babel and lots of, like, why are things happening this way or, you know. But I think the technology itself is pretty compelling. I mean, I would sign up for this experience, hopefully with more guardrails and safety measures. But who wouldn't want to, you know, we would want to be in Revenge of the Sith, you know, which of us would be Annie, which of us would be Obie? I mean, we would absolutely do that.

Imagine, you know, Chris and Bill and Heed in the restaurant scene. They obviously know all the lines by heart. I mean, this would be a popular experience, I think. I guess it's sort of Westworld-esque also, again. Yeah, and whatever went wrong there. It's hard to come up with a truly original idea, I guess, is the theme. But I thought that the performances were good. Daniel and I think both had one of the performances, at least in this episode, as maybe our top this season.

And I thought the relationship was pretty heartfelt. You know, there were distractions from that, that, you know, maybe it could have been a bit if we had focused on that instead of the resetting and the cutting to outside the movie world. But I thought it was among the more thought. A lot of time spent on the spilled coffee. Yeah, yeah. Among the more thought-provoking premises of the season. Yes, I agree. Made me think.

And that's always what I want from Black Mirror. And yeah, maybe it was just, you know, kind of the period trappings of it that appealed to me personally. And it was, again, like, there was darkness to this, certainly. But by Black Mirror standards, this was a love story. This was, you know, there was heart to it. There was some happiness. at least, and even sort of a happy ending, again, by Black Mirror standards. So I'm a sucker for what passes for not completely depressing in Black Mirror.

Even that, I'm like, at the end, I was like, is this, oh boy, we just, does Brandy ever leave that chair then? I don't know. It's funny, like, I would say, because this was an hour and 17 minutes this episode, right? And probably 30, even 35 to 40 minutes in, I was like, this is so clearly going to be not only my favorite episode of the season, but one of my favorite episodes ever. Like, it was trending in that direction.

And I still actually really liked it. This was not in consideration for my least favorite of the season. I'll say that. Like, I thought it was good and interesting. But it didn't have that, like, oh, this was a perfectly calibrated, crafted in an undeniable way, like final result that some of the true best Black Mirror episodes did. And I think like the love story inside of the redream film was really compelling to me. But like some of the, yeah, just like some of the stuff around it just kind of like it didn't quite come together for me in the way that I wanted it to.

And I thought that the length was like really a detriment at the end. I did think that what it had in addition to the love story, like what it had to say about kind of like, choice and consequence. And this idea of like, when are you on the track? And then when can you get back on by making other decisions was really interesting. And I think I actually would have liked if it, like, dabbled in that part of it a little bit more. But, yeah, interesting pick. And, yeah, I like the almost Bender Snatch-esque premise, right?

I mean, it's Choose Your Own Adventure kind of started. The point is that she's just going to do a line-for-line remake of this original movie. But I think it would probably be more compelling to people if they did go off script. and find some on-the-fly rewrites. And, you know, people would probably be upset about tinkering with a classic. But I would watch this version of things. Would you be more satisfied with the ending if it had ended as it looked like it was going to there with Issa Rae's character not saying the final line and just staying in the same. Definitely.

Yeah, of course, that's what I wanted it to be. I think that would have been more satisfying, but then also probably more San Juan Perro-esque and maybe would have felt like. Totally, but then I think, I guess this is the, this is, now I'm just like, yes, ending what you already, I think, rightly identified at the beginning of the pod. Like, I'm sort of like even inside of this season, forget the seven season run of Black Mirror, while I was compelled by the, the budding relationship and the draw that they had to each other, it's like the idea of a sentient AI, like, that other people are seeking to control or manipulate that is in this other realm and then gain some. level of awareness about that circumstance and will they get to be in control? I'm like, it's not even the best version of that in this season. Right? Yeah. So I think that is like a thing that is weighing down and pressing down on the,

on the wider universe kind of undeniably. But yeah, this one felt to me like they have the pitch, but maybe just the spin was like a touch off or a couple, a couple miles per hour off the picture or something. Like they were going to in the movie and started over again. Maybe it would have come out better. But yeah, it's funny that we're talking about the hit rate being low consistently because talking about six episode seasons here or three episode seasons. Yeah, even season five was three episodes. Yeah, you'd like to think that the hit rate would be higher given the like if we're not getting quantity, you would want quality.

But this one in particular, I feel like it had some really high moments, but also it's low moments. Like the first half of it, it took me a while to get into it. But once their world stops and it's just the two of them and it really focuses. That was good. I thought it really worked. That was really good. One of my favorite moments of the whole season, I think, is that like four second window in which she has to like, like, oh, her mind's about to get whites. Like, we've just spent months together and she's about to be gone in an instant.

And then she was just gone. And I was like a, oh, shit kind of moment for me. And I think because we said this whole season was kind of middle of the road and high floor but low ceiling, the fact that this episode gave me some of those high ceiling sentiments. Like even if, you know, halfway through. it fumbled a bit, at least through that point, I had thought that this was going to be an all-timer. And there weren't really other episodes that gave me that feeling for the most part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, let's talk about eulogy. Daniel, this is your favorite. Ben, it was your runner-up. And it was in my consideration set to pick as well. So, Daniel, what did you love about eulogy? Yeah, so eulogy was actually the last one that I watched. I watched it a little bit out of order as I was preparing for this, just because I knew that USS Callister was so,

It had to do with the running times, honestly. Like, USS Calisters so long that I was like, all right, I need to set out some time tonight to watch it. And I just, like, watch it this morning. And was, like, I got a little emotional watching this. I was very surprised by that. And it was just interesting to me in terms of the setup, like for just to, I guess, recap a little bit of it. It's all really just a two-hander with Paul Giamatti and Patsy Farron. And Paul Giamatti's character, Philip gets the news at the beginning of the episode that,

that someone he knows has died. And as the episode goes along, you see how important this person actually was to him. And it's a very simple piece of technology in that he's just invading this, like, memory space, and it's just activating memories through photographs. And for me, honestly, like, with Black Mirror, a lot of the times when the technology is something simple like this,

that you could see being employed in, like, today's world, it's more interesting to me. and just I thought that it was just really, really well done in the sense that it felt like a play. It was like very minimalist. Yeah, it's like basically two people just. It's just the two of them talking for a lot of it. And their performances are so good.

And I feel like that just carries the whole thing for me. So it just hit all the right chords for me and like on an emotional level. The first time Paul, the next time Paul Giamadi is bad and something will be the first time that he's been bad. Right. I mean, he's just always... It hopes when Paul Imani is, like, leading this.

Yeah, and this really was like a gorgeous performance from him. I mean, no surprise. But he's like, was the perfect person to cast in an episode where so much would rely on, like, want in person's resentment and then introspection and then, oh, I've been trying to suppress it and keep it down, but now it's going to overwhelm me, like, emotional truth. It was really lovely to watch. I, Ben, I want to hear what you thought of eulogy, but I'm... I'll say quickly. I really liked the episode. Without question, this was the one that Daniel,

to your point, like, moved me the most and made me the most emotional watching. No question. I found myself, like, two kind of nitpicks that I got maybe more hung up on than I should have. One, you know, Adam and I'm watching, and it's like, oh, right, so it's like, it's the daughter. And I'm like, wait, are we, is this supposed to be a surprise? I kind of. I kind of, you know, I kind of like couldn't tell if they wanted that to be a twist. It was just so apparent. And maybe that's the point that it's apparent to the viewer long before it is to Philly. Like, you know, the way she starts talking about the cello and what it would have meant to give that up and teaching the daughter.

It's like, okay, well, but that's what's happening. Why is he so slow on the uptake? That, like, kind of bugged me. And then, though it was amusing when she's like, you said skip the intro. Yeah. The bigger one for me is... Okay, thematically what this assesses about, like, memory and the role of memory and our sometimes refusal to embrace and maintain our own memories, our need to bury them and hide from them, to protect ourselves. All of that is very interesting to me.

I actually think I needed this to have, like, a literal, like, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind explanation for how he couldn't remember her face. because it actually didn't make sense. And it just really took me out of the episode, like that I otherwise found very emotionally compelling. Like, I get it. You scratched it over the picture with a penny or you punched through with a pencil, but you remember every detail of the night

as you navigate these photos and these experiences. And like, again, I understand the commentary is it's too painful to remember. I get it. But it's like, especially because it's Black Mirror, I think it would have been helpful. if there had been one degree further of explanation for why he could not remember,

like an actual tech explanation, a thing he had done to blast her out of his ability to recall, and then to awaken that memory, I think would have been even more powerful. So that was just the thing that kept it from the number one spot for me, ultimately, but I still thought it was a memorable episode and something I'll enjoy revisiting. And I could see, like, enjoying even more in the future

when I'm not having that first-time watch experience of like, does he not realize it's the daughter? Yeah, yeah. Which wouldn't be how I felt about it the second time. So, Ben, what about you? What do you think of eulogy? Yeah, I think what you're highlighting there maybe worked for me better just because there have been so many instances of that sort of thing happening in Black Mirror through technology,

someone being blocked out of your memory or you're being unable to see someone, including some of the classics that we highlighted earlier. And so for that to be sort of a self-imposed thing. not a dystopian technology, but just our mind playing tricks on us. I think that worked a bit better for me. But really, it's just I also like those themes of sort of the malleability of memory and how we construct our own narratives about events and you think something when you're young and then that narrative gets solidified for the rest of your life. And then maybe at some point you realize actually I'm the baddie or I was wrong or maybe they had a point and it forces you to reevaluate

everything that you've thought and this entire edifice that you've constructed around your life. You know, he's been bitter about this for years. And I like that it's... If he was like, I thought she had blue eyes and they were brown, then all of that works for me. Yeah. But like, this is the most important defining person in my life. It took me 15 years to dig out of the hole. But I couldn't tell you a thing about her face, even though I can tell you exactly like the cello set up.

And I don't know. It just, it like defied... It went to such an extreme in that respect. I think that it's slightly defied a full immersion. And also I guess, right. Even though full immersion is the point of the episode. Yeah, the premise is basically like we don't know a lot about her life during this period. So we're trying to fill in the blanks for this memorial service.

Right. And so it seems like her face wouldn't be particularly important for that exercise, right? Because her daughter knows what she looked like. Presumably they have other pictures. I guess that was a way of forcing him to confront the past. and pull out of him other memories, but it also felt like, yeah, why are we hyper-focused on her face? That's the one thing you do know.

You just don't know all this personal history. Right, exactly. Yeah, but I like that it was, you know, kind of a devastating ending, but then also bittersweet in a sense. It's like very moving when you see that he showed up in London. Yeah, and there's an implication that like maybe he'll have a relationship with the daughter. You know, she's like happy to see him come in and winks at him or something. and maybe there will be sort of like a, you know, I blew it the first time,

but maybe surrogate dad sort of situation late in life here developing. So, yeah, I mean, we're just, we're on a real run of dark sci-fi right now. Yeah, for sure. Just going from severance to Black Mirror to The Last of Us to Andor, you could put Daredevil in that category too, just a lot of darkness. Yeah. Just consecutively. And so to have a little light at the end of the tunnel at this episode.

and the performances, as Daniel said, were also excellent. Giamadi is always great, but also is often, like, doing Paul Giamadi, which I felt like this was a little bit of a different version of him. Yeah. Yeah. I thought, like, just the storytelling around, like, I definitely see your point, Mal, in terms of him not realizing that it's the daughter, but that actually worked for me a little bit just in the sense that you see how toxic he is throughout the whole episode.

And, of course, you can see how toxic that you can see how toxic that you. he is when he's like stabbing the photos or like different methods of of like getting her face out of them like whether it's a cigarette burn and all these other things but like from the the beginning of it like the first detail of like him not knowing that she was engaged like he didn't even think to ask her like he was just so disinterested in so many personal parts of her life yeah and the like they just see that in throughout the episode in a way that I thought was very very clever but a way of like unfurling who this guy is in a way that worked really well yeah and that even extended to the ending where because he's the protagonist, he's the one actually on the screen,

we sort of sympathize with him at first and maybe at the end even and we're thinking, oh, the lost opportunity and she was waiting for him and he didn't show up and he didn't see the note. But then I'm thinking, are we again looking at these events through his framing and maybe she was better off without him, right? Like maybe he's sad and bitter, but maybe she was better off breaking off this relationship. I was more struck there, like less by. necessarily like

overwhelming sympathy for him because I think you guys are rightly identifying that he was quite a flawed figure but just like the what the episode had to say about regret you know and like that you could spend your life regretting a thing and not even really know what you were

regretting or why and that that could shift yeah that was all really great okay we're way off pace so let's let's go a little faster through the rest of our categories our least favorite episodes So you guys already chatted about why you didn't like common people. Then the other pick that you had for this was Plaything, and that's my pick as well. So give us the quick rundown on why Plaything fell to the bottom of the list for you.

Yeah, there were things I liked about this. I liked Peter Capaldi's performance. I mean, it's always great to see 12, one of the best doctors. I didn't even recognize him immediately. I know when he was 12. He looked fucking great, like velvet blazers and just one of wonderful stuff. wonderful stuff. This was quite a wig. Maybe I have higher standards for video game-centric stories.

I did kind of enjoy the like look at 90s gaming magazines sort of Halt and Catchfire, you know, Tucker aspect of things. That was fun. I think it was just not developed enough ultimately for me. It felt like an abrupt ending. This felt like... Very, I was like the episodes over? Yeah. If Hotel Reverie was a little too long, this was the opposite. it. So it just didn't really sell for me. This is the one where there's a video game and the

digital creations take on their own form of life. And they have this devoted acolyte on the outside who's just dedicated to expanding processing power so that they can get more and more powerful. And then at the end, essentially, we have some sort of singularity event. And it just didn't really sell for me what exactly these digital creations were, were capable of. Maybe it's, I'm just, I'm not really a Tamagachi guy. Maybe that's part of it. But also, I just wanted.

I feel like there's a lot of the Sims. Yeah, or spoil the Will Right game. Yeah. Where there's an evolution. The swimming pool. Yeah. Yeah. There is just a lot of like showing, not telling kind of about like the relationship

with these beings where we saw that he's conversing with them. And it's just sort of presented in the form of like. static on a screen and they're telling him to like buy Pentium processors and stuff, but like what else are they saying? Like, you know, like, and at the end is this bad, is this good? Like, what are they capable of? Are they going to, it seems probably bad. Seems bad.

It seems bad. Yeah, I didn't really get a sense of like the capabilities of. Definitely made me scared of QR codes. Yeah. Scanning a, you know, make sure you know what it is if you held it in from your camera. I'm anti-QR code in general, but I just, I wanted, because he was just sort of selling, like, these digital beings are every much as valuable and as lifelike as humans. And yet we don't really get any insight into their personalities other than, like,

dropping boulders on them and having them bleed seems cruel. But, you know, like, what are they talking to him about? Like, what is their vision for humanity? What exactly will they now be capable of? there just, a lot of that was just sort of implied and not really shown to us. Yeah, I felt, I agree with everything you said. I thought the abrupt end of the episode was actually kind of astonishing to me. I was like, I can't believe the episode's over.

But to that last point, Ben, I think obviously the commentary on humanity is quite clear. You know, we model this violent behavior. And then when they are here to quote unquote save us, it's, it's that violence that we taught them, right, to deployed in turn. but yeah, why are other than the cuteness and the sweetness and the little bird chirps and everything? Like, what is the throng? Right. You know, and we have the kind of like tech part of the,

you know, they're going to start right overriding their own code and the way that they'll evolve. But like, what is going on inside of that throng and what is the throng working for? It felt absent in a way that was kind of striking. So, yeah, I thought, I mean, seeing Will Polter is always great and Capaldi, just icon, legend, all. So the performances were really fun.

I was a little annoyed by the detective who was being the bad cop. Yeah, just so aggressive the whole time. He was so angry, which I guess played into the theme of, like, humanity sucks and maybe it's better if we're replaced by digital beings. But like, why is he so personally aggrieved about this decades-old murder? I was kind of seemed like too agro for the circumstances. He was very upset about the suitcase. Yeah.

I feel like the ending of it, honestly, is like a big pitfall in Black Mirror in general where they kind of just have the twist at the very end with the technology and then don't really explain what it is, but it's just kind of meant to leave this eerie feeling at the end of it. Right. You're supposed to sit with it and think about it. But sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Daniel, so let's bleed into the next category because our next category is the episode that made you genuinely afraid to be alive. And this was your plaything was your pick for that.

So tell us why that's your. Honestly, I was for this prompt, I was like, I don't know if any of them really did for me this season. but at least for like that one moment even though it was completely unearned to just everything we just talked about with it just the moment in which everybody starts collapsing after like it's just taken over an instant creep me out

that's really that's really when it comes down I totally from a storytelling perspective I don't think the moment was earned at all but just with the QR code taking it over and then everybody just like it took 20 seconds or whatever it was and then that's just game over Game over for the world. A very three-body problem, like suddenly everybody's phones have...

Yeah, or Stephen King book The Cell, which is one of his worst, in my opinion. But he often has that problem with endings, too, where it's like the most compelling premise and a great twist. And then it kind of peters out a little bit. Yeah, he's my faith. But... You love them. You love them. Well, let's keep these next categories combined and talk about, like, let's get to an episode we haven't talked about at all, which was the episode that Ben and I,

both picked for episode that was made us genuinely afraid to be alive and Daniel it was one of your two contenders for your least favorite episode. So let's talk about Bet Noir. Daniel, why did you just like this episode? Ben, why did it make you afraid to be alive? I felt very similar.

I mean, I also had just watched common people and I already expressed how I felt about common people. And I felt very similar things in terms of the storytelling where I don't know. It was just watching this woman get gaslit the whole time. I think it was just like frustrating to watch. And a similar thing, I think with plaything for me,

where the technology just like wasn't earned, where they're kind of at the very end of it, like we can just tap into parallel dimensions. And with this little press of my pendant, like I can activate it just like that. Just felt like way too much to happen at the very end of the episode. And it's just generally the whole episode as a... general arc around this main character

just frustrated me with that, especially with her final decision being like, all right, now I'm the Empress of the universe. And I was like, okay. Yeah, I was like torn between picking this and Plaything for both of these categories, least favorite and afraid to be alive. And if I'm being, if I'm being honest with myself,

like this actually is my least favorite episode of the season, I just didn't want to pick it for both categories. So give Plaything the honor because it's definitely my pick for Afraid to be alive. But I do think it was a neck and neck race with this in play thing. But yeah, this was not a super successful episode, I don't think. The reason it's my pick for Afraid to Be Alive

is because, like, the idea, it gets back to that thing I like actually about playtest. Can you trust your own mind? That's just such a disturbing idea to me. Like, what if suddenly you didn't know what was real? And then in this episode, like, what if someone was weaponizing that against you? And, like, you know, the idea of, like, nuclear-grade gaslighting

driving people to the brink of murderous rage or suicide like the relationships in their lives falling apart losing their jobs, all of it, right? Just your life unraveling because somebody who you did a terrible thing to sought their vengeance

in the form of making you believe you were going insane? Very upsetting. Very upsetting premise. This is not something that I would want to have to live through. This was my pick also for thing that most made me feel afraid to be alive. And I'm with you, Daniel, that there were fewer of those in this episode, in the season.

But it actually wasn't for the gaslighting so much as for the ending where we find out. I thought you were going to say the ingredients paired in the food. You're not like a miso in my candy bar guy. The miso, yeah. Yeah, I don't know about that. It grows on you, evidently. But yeah, I think that was less scary to me than the idea of being able to do anything you want and thus not getting gratification from anything, which, I mean, the multiverse as a concept scares me, scares me both

when it's applied to the stories that we care about, and it often sort of ruins them or, you know, damages the stakes, but also for the same reason that it might harm. No, no idea what you'd be referencing. No. No idea what I'm not going to be about. But for the same reason that it sometimes screws with the stakes in stories, it would in real life, because the ending of this is basically, I've done everything, I've tried everything, I had the ultimate power, and none of that satisfied me. And that is why I am tormenting you here. The only thing that will make me happy is destroying.

Yeah, my grievance, my grudge that has been with me my whole life. That's the only thing that could make me happy. So that idea of like if you can do anything, if you can go to any universe and be anything, then why bother doing anything at that point? There's a lot of that, like, everything everywhere all at once. And I felt like that's where it packed in at the end and it just wasn't nearly as effective as everything everywhere at once, because that's a whole movie that's dedicated. to that idea and it does it beautifully.

Yeah. This was the episode of my mind when you were, I think, totally fairly Daniel identifying earlier that common people felt like there was no, I mean, both were saying no mystery about where it was going. This one was like the other, the scale tipping too far in the other direction where it's like, what is this episode about exactly? It's clear, right, that like everything with Verity is like, okay, yeah, no, this is a pursuit of vengeance.

We saw that the hat said Barneys, not Bernies. Like, we saw the email had that line in it. We know what truth is and we're trying to figure out what the, what the ultimate reveal or nature of that manipulation of reality will be. But even just like the interstitials with the day of the week and the food, you're kind of like, wait, what's this episode going to be about? Like, are we getting, you know, what form is the reveal coming in that I thought was like, I don't know, it's almost like distracting for the sake of it. But I wish it sounds like we're all pretty aligned on that one. That might have been better.

Just designing different types of food would have been a better episode in my own. I thought the food looked delicious, frankly. Okay. Our next category is the story that you would be most interested in continuing to explore in a future sequel in a future season. I already told you guys what mine is. Give me a third Callister. I will say USS Callister into infinity, which we actually, despite this being, I would say, far in away the most high profile and anticipated episode in the season. Not one that we have talked about really at all today.

But it'll come up for me in the next category. But I thought that this was really good and really fun, but just not as good as the first one. It couldn't quite measure up to the shock and the surprise. And I think some of the aspects of it that were intentionally parallel in nature worked to, you know, if we're talking about our guy, Bob Daly, emphasize something, right, about the nature that lurks within. And then in other circumstances,

felt like, okay, yeah, no, we get it. We did this before, and the first time was all inspiring, and this time it feels like we did it before. But still, I thought it was one of the more successful episodes of the season overall, and I would like to be back with those characters who I find, like, immensely entertaining. It's a great little ensemble, and figuring out how they're going to get out of Ned's head is something that I'm interested in exploring further.

So that's my pick. What about you guys? Do you want another Callister? Do you have another episode that you would prefer to return to an expanded canon form? Yeah, I think just because I was generally down on going overboard on sequels, I'd rather confine it to Callister and just have Callister be the thing that continually get sequels. And it seems like they're into that because at one point they were planning a limited series that would just be Callister. And that would be fun. Yeah, I'd be into that.

And Brooker, I think, went through three or four different story ideas for where this could have gone. So it seems like there's more meat on that bone maybe. And, yeah, I was sorry that Michaela Cole didn't get to be in this one. She just had a scheduling conflict, and so she sort of just died off screen. The classic, like, writing out of character. She's one of my favorite characters in the first one, so that was sort of incredible. Too bad. And, yeah, they were certain storytelling choices that either were kind of reminiscent or, you know,

convenient with, like, the car accident or just other things that, you know, I would have liked to be explained a little more, I guess, or just like, did they have to go around killing other characters? Like, can't they do other things? Like, why do they, can they make money in other ways or just, why do they even need money? Like, they don't, like, I don't know. Can they just live and let live? It's a whole universe.

But, yeah, there were certain things. You need to be able to afford that hyperspace route, right? I guess so, yeah. But maybe they wouldn't need hyperspace if they weren't fleeing from people they'd attacks. Right. Maybe they can't get a legitimate job because they don't have Gaper tags or whatever. But I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, they did sort of leave room for another sequel, I think, with the

way that it ended. So I'd probably be into more of that. And it seems like there's enthusiasm. I guess, you know, some of the ones like, like White Bear, I guess, which was a season two episode, I think, or really early one, episode two in one of the seasons. And it was like about the, you know, punishment. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that seemed like a sequel or potentially a prequel, even to explain how we got to this stage would have been interesting to me. So, yeah, there are a few, I guess that might fit the bill, but generally I'm not really pro-sequel to any particular episode. What about you, Daniel? I love that the end of also like this episode is basically the setup of like the inside out in terms of them just viewing out from the panel.

I couldn't stop thinking about that as the episode was ending. I was like, is this just going to be inside out at the end? Yeah, there was a strong inside out aura. There was like a lot of Doctor Who. Yeah. Yeah. Like I would be curious about doing another one of those just because I feel like, such a big part of the whole Callister series, I guess you could say at this point,

is just how much of a send-up it is of Star Trek and shows like that with all the lens flares and everything. But I don't know why they would go back to space at this point. I feel like it would just be about them extracting them out of her head. I think that's really like a lot of what Ben's saying too. I don't see any need, I guess, of Black Mirror going the whole sequel route. I think it just makes sense in terms of this whole anthology formula that have going to keep sticking with this. And going through the whole list of episodes, again, there just wasn't really another one where I would want to see them continue that storyline anymore.

Yeah, I guess Black Museum, which is also a good episode. That was, I think, the season four finale. Yeah. That also has that sort of transferring a consciousness into someone else's heads kind of set up. Some of the ones that just don't explain a lot of the world, I think there's room to explain. I mean, plaything, for instance. I was thinking about what actually happened after that point. But some of them, I kind of like the mystery of it and don't really need it explained.

Like, Metalhead was that episode with the robot dogs. Yeah. And you don't really know what's going on in this world or, you know, why are they chasing people? Or that seems like kind of a compelling setup to flesh out this scenario. But I'd rather just see something new ultimately. I think it would have to, like, to your point about plaything too, is I think there would be opportunities. need to try to like fix some of the issues that these individual episodes had in the first place. Like now they could actually get into what the throng are and do that. But like, I don't think I

would want to see that because I didn't think this episode was great in the first place. And now you can play the game if you want to. Exactly. Now we could go. What could go wrong? Evolve our own phone with. Or nosedive, the episode that I shouted out earlier, that could maybe be sequel. Like what happens after you're off the grid, essentially, you're unraitable. Are you happier at that point? What is your life like? But yeah, it's, Bricker said that he has a bunch of ideas for things that he'd like to revisit. So, yeah, it's hard for me to come ahead. It is a little concerning.

There's just so much technology at this point that they could just recycle it and just have new characters and do that. But there's just so many opportunities to just start anew. Yeah. We don't want Black Mirror to become our version of entire history of you where we were just rewatching the prior experience back. Okay, favorite performance from season seven specifically. And I'll stick with Callister for a moment.

I mean, we already talked about I loved the Giamadi performance in YOLGEL. I did, despite not really liking plaything, I did like the Kvaldi performance. Yeah, me too. Really strange in a very fun way. This was actually the single easiest pick of any of the categories for me.

Jimmy Simpson should win an Emmy for USS Callister into infinity for the double Walton. This was like incredible. First of all, just as was the case in the first Callister, genuinely comic.

Like very, very funny, physically funny, witty, rude, acerbic. The bulk of the, oh shit, this is what's really a foot, thrust of the plot of the episode, also hinges on his character in both realms. Like, what is actually waiting at the core? How did this DNA, like device come into this?

company in the first place, everything with that, but also just the nature of what he is trying to mask or shield or preserve in the real world. The fact that he had to be so sinister and so my ass is hanging out and my scrotum is visible on the table all in the same episode was, I thought, just really fun to watch. So he's my easy pick. I thought he was sensational.

What about you? Who are you both picking for favorite performance? of the season. Yeah, we sort of had the same ones, I guess. Yeah, Paul Gianmani, I think for, we kind of covered that one a lot. Yeah. I thought he was just so good and just the way that, again, they unfurled his character and just the range of emotions that he's showing in his performance from just like

angry to regretful to sad and to like him realizing at the end like how, how wrong he's been about so many things and just realizing how toxic he's been. And then Emma Corrin, I thought was really, really good in that. Like, I felt like there was something silly about. the whole classic movie in terms of the other actors. Like, I felt like they were performing to be in a classic movie, except Emma Corrin, like, really sold me in that she was doing this. And just the love story that she's able to tell with Issa R.

Issa Rai I also thought was great. But I felt like a lot of it, she was just being Iserre, which is, she's great. But, like, Emma Corrin, I feel like was very, like, transformative in that role. Yeah. The moments where Dorothy poked through. Yes. Right. Because she's playing this, yeah, this period drama role with the Mid-Atlantic accent

sort of thing. she's nailing that, but then when the humanity comes out and they break script, she's also excellent at that. So, yeah, that really sold the love story for me. So she'd probably be the top one and then Giumadi. And then also, even though we didn't love Bet Noir, I thought Rosie McEwen was good in that episode as just the, you know, creepy avenging former milkmaid. She sort of sold for me the, you know, looks nice and innocent and friendly, but also when she stares at you from across the room, you are actually kind of terrified.

Her drinking the carton of almond milk was so unhinged, but it was such a great moment. Even though I didn't like that episode, that was like, what is happening right now? Just the silence as they're staring at each other. Fantastic. None allergy. Natalogy?

Nut allergy. What's not? No, no. It's driving to the brink. Great picks. A lot of great performances across the entire seat. season. All right, our final black mirror category is just favorite in-universe reference or Easter egg. There are always a lot. There were so many this season. They were never more than a

couple scenes without something. I'll go for sure. I always love the many San Junipero knots. We've got a bunch of them here. Mike and Amanda are dining at the Juniper and Common People. Brandy lives on Junipero Drive and Hotel Reverie. The net is at St. Juniper's Hospital. Of course, all the Tucker Soft Tucker, General, corporate behemoth looming stuff across many of these episodes. That's always like one of my favorite things, the little winks to San Juan Napero. But I think my actual pick is when we see the news broadcast of Walton being taken into custody, we're getting a lot of the Easter eggs on the scroll. But the wink to national anthem, the episode that started at all, right?

Former UKPM Michael Gallo enters celebrity vet school was very funny to me. Of course, he had to fuck a pig, in case I forgot. So enjoyed that. Great stuff. What about you? What do you each have for your favorite? Yeah, that was another prescient blackmonger moment that foreshadowed the UK political controversy. But for me, I think it was the use of the song,

anyone who knows what love is by Irma Thomas, which was in Common People, an episode that we kind of dumped on. But I liked that that song showed up. It's sort of the, yes, it's the unofficial theme song of Black Mirror, basically. It's appeared in every season, one episode per season. And here it's the lounge singers at the Juniper, another San Juniper reference. And it's almost unrecognizable,

the performance. But yeah, that song, it's just sort of fits perfectly for Black Mirror, just the themes of the show. Like, it's a great song, but also it's slightly unsettling. It's like a love song, but it's about women who's staying with a guy, even though he doesn't treat her well, and he's kind of defending her. And yeah, it's a fitting, I think, unofficial theme. So I was glad to see it show up again. But I think really all the intra-season references this season were the highlight for me. More so than the callbacks, it just felt like more than ever, the new episodes were all sort of knitted together. Just various signs and tickers and chirons.

Yeah. Common people. Right. It just helped sort of unite them or make them feel like they were kind of taking place in the same universe. I thought you were going to say I really want to highlight an MCU Easter egg and talk about how eulogy was clearly inspired by Tony Stark's Barth Tech. But that's not what you said. Daniel, what about you? For me, I liked the San Juan Apparel ones, but I threw on a couple.

that we, like, wasn't already listed. I liked the mention of, like, the autonomous bees in the beginning of common people, just because I felt like things like that are just cool ways to show that it's all part of the same universe and, like, teaching it within a class space. The Barney's Chicken, like, was one of those moments where I thought it was funny because, like,

I was like, was this already in the show? I had this, like, similar moment of what they're experiencing. I was like, was it Barneys? And then looking up, like, a list of Easter eggs afterwards. I was like, yeah, this is appeared in like four other episodes of Black Mirror. I thought honestly there was like too many Easter eggs in this season. Like it's getting a little bit too like self-referential for me. There was a lot, yeah.

There was a lot, especially with Santa Judeo-Daparo. And like, it's great. You know, great episode. Yeah. Remember that episode? Yeah. We did a lot of like that. Yeah.

Yeah, totally fair. It was a lot. Okay. Anything else on Black Mirror season seven before we shift to the devil of hell's kitchen. I think I'm back in. I'm ready. Season 8, let's see it.

Back in enough to anticipate season 8, but not back in enough to pay thronglet to play thronglet. Or to go back and watch season 6 probably. You don't need to do that. Yeah, I won't. I would say that if you had some time and you wanted to watch Beyond the Sea, that's that's the Aaron Paul. That's the Aaron Paul, Josh Hart and Kate Marlon. That's actually a really good episode.

Yeah, that was when I wanted to go back and watch. You can skip Masey Day. Yeah. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

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Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Okay. We're running along. So we're only going to spend, I don't know, I was going to say we're only going to spend a few minutes, but we'll see. We're going to try to only spend a few minutes talking about Daredevil Born Again episode 8, which is the penultimate episode of the season, because this is a nine-episode season of television. This episode, Isle of Joy, directed by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson,

and written by Jesse Wigitoe and the new showrunner, replacement showrunner, Dario Skardipane. So this episode was my favorite of the season, I thought the best of the season, season by a pretty comfortable margin. I still think that the Punisher Matt scene from episode four was the peak of the season. That was the best scene of the season. That's the thing I'm going to think about the most and wish they had just done. I'm just like, why didn't you do more and I don't understand still? Why? Maybe next week? Maybe. Maybe. Dare to dream. But, you know, the fact that the basically like new sub-in replacement show team was the team that made this episode and this episode worked

I thought quite well not only to set up the finale but just more importantly, ultimately, to signal what the future of this series can be, what season two will hopefully be like and what Daredevil might be in the MCU. It had like an outsized impact on me in that

respect of encouragement moving forward for like, okay, we had a lot of material that we had to find a way to make work and some of it worked well and some of it didn't, but we were going to use it. And now we're in the new era moving forward. So I enjoyed it and I felt like pretty hyped coming out of it. I thought that there were a few different things I want to hit with you guys that are worth discussing in a little more detail.

But, you know, just at the most basic level, yet again, the heavy intercutting between the mat and fisk scenes when they are not together. And then obviously we get to the point of melding our color schemes and our dance partners as we're swinging around on the ballroom floor together. that's that's all quite compelling and just what a what a wonderful treat to have bull's eye back what a treat to have decks back i cannot believe joe and i have been a little ships in the night with our with our schedules during the daredevil run the fact that i missed talking about frank castle in real time and joe is missing talking about the return of of decks uh is i just can't believe that happened the fates are cruel but because joe is not here with us, I will say, Joe can fix him. I'm going to get that out there for Joe. Joe can fix him. So yeah, what did you guys think just at the broadest level there? Did you enjoy this episode? Daniel, you wrote a great piece about it. You've been covering the entire season. Ben, you were like, you know, you guys asked me to pod, so I'll catch up, sure. But did you guys also think this was the most successful episode of the season? Yes, I think, yeah, we're probably both with you on that one.

Yeah, I mean, we had a twist, we had a cliffhanger, we had action, we had beloved characters returning, we had interpersonal tension of all kinds. We had some interesting cinematography. I don't want to go overboard with the complexity of the blue versus red, as you said in your recap, it was not exactly subtle, but we get the point. So, yeah, I guess it feels a little bit like if only the whole season had been like. this, but the glass-safel interpretation, as you just said, Mel, would be, but maybe next season and also next week will be like this. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely thought, I agree with you. I think this was definitely the best episode by far. To the point, like, still trying to be optimistic about it, but it really showed, like, there were such a difference between this and, like, the past six episodes that were part of the old regime. There were certain episodes that I liked. Like, I really liked that, like, the bottle kind of episode of the bank robbery. Yeah, the bank robbery.

Yeah, yeah. like inside man kind of thing. Yeah. But this one just like worked so well to me. And even just from like the first scene, there was just different visuals and just a different sensibility of how they're telling it, like focusing on that rose and then pulling back and then it's decks. So a lot of it just, it works really well.

And I feel like they had been dancing around Kingpin. And I think you and Joe have been calling it like the dark mirroring of their, their storylines. And to actually have them back was was really exciting like at the Black in the white ball and like having those two characters on screen for the first time since their their heat impression in the diner in episode one. Yeah. Yeah. The diner scene was so riveting and, you know, part of ultimately like a well-structured

and well-conceived season is to like make us wait to feel that again. But to be back in that moment. Like it's actually, it is funny to be covering Black Mirror in the same pot as a Daredevil season. Because yeah, you're right. We love talking about that dark mirror aspect of the Matt and Fisk pairing, the Matt and Frank pairing, the Matt and Bullseye pairing, all of it. So that was just so present in the text of this episode. And like when, you know, this was, I thought, easily the most compelling Matt and Heather episode.

That just has like that relationship has not worked for me at all this season until this point. And that opening stretch, like you said, Daniel, like to move from the rose then into this intercutting of the various relationships and their dynamics and the way that we can feel how this like plot is going to finally meld and bring people to the same place and moving them closer toward the same plane of shared understanding. Like we didn't actually get to the moment where Matt tells Heather that he's daredevil. But like, we got pretty close. He's like, oh, let's go find out. You know? She should be picking up on that by now as a perceptive. I agree.

I've got just a lot of notes on the head of characters still. But it was, I think for that reason, like it felt cathartic and necessary to hear them have this mused daredevil argument. Like I saved me. They were both out there for themselves. I don't personally agree with that read from Heather. She was brutal. That was a little gratitude. Just, you know, I just saved your.

I mean, yes, you fired the bullets. ultimately, but I guess they were... For Matt to have to think about whether that's true. Like, I don't think any of us would say that it was totally a fair thing to say about Daredevil, but it is interesting for Matt to have to confront what the mask means not only to himself,

always part of what's fascinating about Daredevil, but also what it means to other people. And, like, when Heather's like... You know, Matt, I loved when Matt said, if he's in your life, then he's in our life. But what was really great was when she... You know, he's like, he's trying to, like, co-op your story. and boosts his narrative.

She's like, if his narrative is the vigilantes are dangerous, then he's got my vote. Like, this is not the foundation for a blasting,

successful relationship. These two have pretty radically opposed worldviews. And ever since we started hearing Heather talk about like her, you know, the focus of her next book back at her book signing,

we've been heading toward this point. But it was, I thought, um, overdue, but, but fulfilling, uh,

to see it kind of bubble to the fore. Um, yeah. I just love, love her, like, calling them like underdeveloped boys, like in terms of the masked characters. And Matt's just like, oh, I don't know about Daredevil, well.

Yeah, he's a daredevil guy's all right. Yeah, he's okay. He seems pretty chill. Oh, God. Make some good points. Yeah, no, I get her point about the unprocessed trauma here that is being expressed by both of them, but slightly different expressions, I would say. I mean, it's a little bit like my Dexter Morgan, you know, he's channeling his dark

passenger, his urges into a, well, a more violent way than daredevil, but a little more pro-social than some of the serial killers he's attacking. So, you know, it's a slight but meaningful differences between these characters. Yes, ultimately. I thought that everything at the ball, just to stick with Matt and Heather for one more moment here, there were some moments where that stretch of the episode, like as we're kind of porting in and out of different, uh, tables and conversations and like we move into the Jack Artemis exchange and then Jack almost seems like he's like frozen as we like the camera pants. Some of that got like a little too cute for me, but Heather talking to Vanessa about how she got stood up and then Matt showing up late

with the Chanel number five. So you're not the only one. I'm sorry I couldn't find you. You're not the only one wearing Chanel number five. And then the way he was like, Yeah, he has a little giggle afterwards. I thought was just great. And the, like, you're not listening sequence was, I thought, hysterical. Like, that was, like, some of the best stuff they've done this season. And Matt is, this is, like, what I really love. I mean, Charlie Cox's Matt Murdoch is just, you know, wonderful and a favorite.

One of the things that, like, Joe and I really love talking about in the primer pod and that I really love about this version of Matt Murdoch and Matt Murnock in general, it's like, he actually is like, really flawed and does a lot of things where you're like, Matt, why'd you do it that way? And this was one, right? Where you're like, Matt, you're trying to convince her that like, you're not as emotionally and physically distant as she's claiming. But like, in real time, twice in that conversation, you can't help. That's super here. That's crucial plot points.

It is. I know. We needed him to do that. But Heather needed him to be more present in their relationship. God damn it. That was great. What about the Vanessa and Fisk part of it? Because obviously Heather and Madder are not the only couple.

We're really working through it. Tough stuff for our guy Adam and his very capable and memorable fingers. You know, we've been tracking all season the presence of Rabbit in a Snowstorm. We got another little bit of Rabbit in the Snowstorm action not only panning across the painting many times, but made a new one with Adam's brain. splattering all over the wall of his jail sale. What did you guys make of Vanessa's choice? What did you make of Fiske's declaration? You know, this is a real, like, connected to the iconic season one Netflix moment.

Like, I'm not a monster. Am I? You know, I'm better than I was. I am. You know, the way he's not always not only trying to convince her, but himself. I'm really eager when we get to the ballroom part of it to talk about how we think he's going to respond to her having kept the foggy decision from him

which is of course a violation of the pledge that Matt and Fisk made very memorably in the season three finale that Fiske then recalled in the heat scene Daniel as you said in the diner scene like I told you I wasn't going to do that and I didn't do it so we have like a new potential for a little bit of a fracture there

But Vanessa's decision not to pick up the key, but to pick up the gun. What did you guys make of it? I'm always written for these two. Yeah, yeah. Heartwarming, honestly. Just great to see them get back together. And they could have saved all that counseling time and money. All they needed to do is just bond over murdering a former lover.

Well, you know, Buck Cashman would say that they had their agenda. And it was being able to knock on the door of Matt Murdoch's apartment whenever they'd damn well pleased to get to give Heather an invite to a ball cells. Yeah. As you said in your recap, tough sell that, you know, I'm better than I was when better is merely imprisoning someone. Right. The guy in the cage is right there. Rather than executing him. I mean, it's progress, baby steps, I guess. But yeah, I guess, you know, it was a demonstration of loyalty. It was a very final turning the page on that interlude in the relationship. And so it does then make you wonder, yes, like, will they have to go back to counseling after the revelation in the finale, presumably,

and will Heather be up for that at that point? So the relationship will be tested. But it seems like they're getting along great. You know, you had the kind of fake out with Vanessa betraying Wilson, but not really and actually setting up the murder. And then, you know, they're just on the same page. They're just vibing their power couple right now in the spotlight at the ball. So great to see them back together.

Don't know how long it will last. Yeah, I feel like big picture for Vanessa. I think a lot of it works in the sense that I like that they're giving her character, her own storyline and like her own arc in a sense that she has this more power that she was given while Fisk was gone. But for me, it hasn't worked across the whole season because they just haven't shown her enough. Like outside of, like, there's been a few like the dining table scenes where they're talking or the therapy sessions, obviously. But there just hasn't been enough of like purely like what's Vanessa. think about all this.

So I liked that they started this episode with having her have this choice and having her actually shoot him in that way was like, you're seeing her, she's changed. This is not the same Vanessa that she was in the original Daredevil series. And I'm glad that they're starting to do a little bit more of that now. But I wish this was something that was there throughout the whole season. But now that we're getting to the end of the season, I'm glad that they're starting to tie that relationship up a little bit more. It was interesting to hear Fisk, you know, in the opening of this episode, like, give her some of what she had needed, which is just the active, oh, I'm not going to, like, cover and say, like, we got to maintain this distance.

It's an active embrace again of their role in controlling in a public and visible and, quote, unquote, like, official and sanctioned way. And then in all these other ways as well, the city, and for him to, like, credit her, right? for the work that she had done and the thing that she had maintained and built rather than like the for that to shift out of that period of resentment, the secrets, the abandonments, the respective betrayals into like you kept it afloat and were here because of you to then shift to a moment where it's revealed and new at the end of the episode that there has been a level of withholding. Yeah. It felt very interesting.

I think like, you know, in terms of your point, Daniel, about how, Vanessa's character has evolved. Like, you know, when we see her in season three, like, choose to go into that control room and say, show it all to me. Like, that part of just the kind of natural, then continued evolution of her desired, whether it's to have her hand at the head of the table or on the trigger or whatever the case may be. I've, I've, that's been one of the more successful parts of the season to me. I think I liked the counseling scenes more than a lot of people did, just because, like,

quivering voice, Fisk talking about how much he loves his, wife is just always one of my favorite parts of the television universe. But the characters what made me, what you were saying made me think of Daniels, Cherry and Kirsten, in terms of who were the characters who have suffered this season from just us not getting

nearly enough time? That's definitely a bigger issue than with them. Yeah, so like where are you guys with, because you know, the Midnight Boys Peeop, pew, pew. Give Daniel a pause and everything. I know, you even looked at me. Cut us unaware.

I was trying to cut you off in a few that time, damn. The guys had a conversation on their instant reaction pot about this and about how this episode felt like a little bit of a leveling up. We were getting a little bit more out of Cherry that this has been something they were waiting for. And I thought the conversation between Cherry and Matt at Josie's was like, you could feel the friendship between them and you could feel the history between them. Same thing with Kirsten when she pulls Matt Asosier.

and he's like, you know, this thing that we're doing, like just, what is all this, which was then another version of when he had said to Heather last episode, like this to me just all feels kind of fake. And I've kind of met a commentary of that for this like new version of the show versus the thing we got before is interesting. But, you know, we just have, I think, not gotten nearly enough from Cherry and Kirsten to even attempt to say these are the relationships of consequence in Matt's life compared to. Foggy and Karen. And as much as I liked this episode overall, I think still with one episode to go in the season, that remains just an undeniable shortcoming of the season and failure of the season to like try to even replicate or measure up to

or even approximate that thing. And if it's if the part of the point was that that wasn't going to be possible because of who Matt and Karen, who Foggy and Karen were to Matt, then making that a little bit more of like an active thing that Matt is, reflecting on. And like the guys talked about, you know, part of what we've just really been missing, and this is why what you were just saying made me think of it, Daniel, is just literally

any time with those characters outside of a conversation with Matt about how he's either being a bad lawyer that day or shouldn't be, like, returning to being Daredevil that day. Like, it's just, that's been it. So whenever you see, even if there's more screen time, it's the same, it's just, are you okay, Matt? You seem like you're not doing great. Seems like you're blowing up your life. Yeah, maybe I am.

We've seen that conversation. a few times this season. Yeah, yeah. Like, Mal, I know you and Joe have talked about this a lot in previous episodes, too, but it really just feels like Cherry and Kierston or just serving the same purpose, the same function in terms of the story that Foggy did.

And it's like at that point, I kind of just wish Foggy was around because there already is so much built in. And like, we just, they just didn't give them enough of a chance to even try to fill in that role at all because there's not a single scene that I can think of where, like maybe for Cherry, it's like when he, was picking up their witness in like episode three where you have him like giving him the drugs

and then bringing him that whole like the trick they did to get him to the courthouse. That's like one of the few scenes you have him where he's not like with. And I guess there's been like small scenes with like just him and Kirsten talking. But in terms of seeing who these actually are as people, it's mostly like expositional where you're seeing like, all right, this guy was a detective. He's reminiscent like the way things used to be. before vigilantes were around, but we don't really know who they are just that he has some sort of relationship with Matt. And it doesn't really make you feel anything on an emotional level

where I'm like, I need to see more cherry. Even when it's a cherry Christian scene, they're just talking about Matt. It's like a Bechdel test kind of, you know, like, did they ever actually have a conversation with anyone else that is not regarding Matt's well-being? Yeah. I think the thing that, like, the other thing that's really been on my mind is like, okay, if we think about the stakes, the emotional stakes, the story mechanic mistakes, any of it. It's like, if Kirsten got so fed up with Matt that she was like, I can't work with you anymore, I can't be in, in partnership in a law practice with you. If Cherry was like, I'm just imploring you, you don't need more pain, you don't need the mask, and you won't listen. So I can't be your PI. I can't be in your life.

I would be like, okay. Like, I wouldn't feel anything about them leaving that. But the idea of Foggy or Karen ever, reaching the point where Matt's absence or withholding or outright lies or the decisions that he made that had an impact on them threatened those core relationships and the idea of those relationships being in jeopardy, like felt during the Netflix run more consequential than all of Hell's Kitchen being in danger. Like that was the magic trick of the show. And so I think that this is just like a continues to be a real source of longing inside of the new universe. And I'm curious to see like how that is addressed and recalibrated in season two. And I think that an area in this episode where we did actually learn something new about a character that feels really

meaningful is of course with Beebe. Yeah. She knows. Like we learned in the conversation between Bibi and Gallo that she does in fact know that Fisk was the leading suspect in her uncle's murder, in Ben Yerick's murder. I'm glad we know that. It feels crucial that we know that about Bibi. I don't understand why we didn't know that seven episodes ago. 100%. I think that this would have been a very helpful, uh, orienting aspect of like this character coming into the story and into our lives in the first place. And frankly, would have made those scenes between Bibi and Daniel, my guy Daniel Blake, which I think if they're like pretty consistently comedic and amusing, have an extra level of mutual ambition

and withholding, like, beyond even just the kind of like career-driven aspects of that. Yeah. But Blake, Daniel Blake, no one knows what a shot is, apparently. They're just like shots, shots, and then it's just full champagne fluid. It's very confusing. But this lovable dip shit has been promoted to deputy mayor for community. communications. Sheila is perplexed and dismayed. Can't say I blame her. And Daniel is on the ascent. Fisk is like, you are the future of this city. Why would we stand in the way? It's Daniel's kind of this like charming buffoon. And so we're almost like inclined in a way that I think the show making us complicit in this has been really successful. To miss for a moment how disturbed we should be by that. And then you of course realize that this is like a very harrowing thing. To understand a little bit more about what had been. guiding BB beyond like I'm here to get scoops for my blog.

I think it would have been great, but I am glad still that we know it now. How about you, Daniel? I know you wrote about this a little bit in your piece. You were glad to get the information, but similarly felt like it should come sooner. I totally feel the same way, where I feel like that was just needed it a lot earlier in the season. I'm glad it's here because it's one of those things where you can definitely like kind of into it that like she's playing Daniel Blake from the whole, like especially like after the whole club scene where the next morning it's like, oh, shit, I leak this.

Yeah. I'm in trouble. And you can just kind of piece that together yourself, but you're making the audience do too much of the work there. And especially because you see a lot of, like, BB, in a sense, like, through the BB reports, but she's not actually on camera. So it's like you're not actually getting enough of her as a character. And I think part of it for me at least too is like I loved Ben Yurik as a character in

the original Daredevil series. So if you're invoking his name, it's like. You got to do him some justice. So the fact that we're finally getting that piece here, I'm glad it finally happened. But I just wish it had been a little bit sooner. Yeah. Ben, what about you?

You have thoughts on Ben York, on BB? Avenging uncles going on in this episode. Hopefully it goes better for BB than for Angela. But yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense to save some sort of reveal, potentially. I mean, there was already a twist in this episode, and there's a semi-twist. with BB, but I agree that probably that dynamic might have worked a bit better if we had understood her motivations.

But then again, if we were fooled by them, and I don't know whether viewers were for the most part, but if they were, then you're kind of in the same boat as the people that she's playing for information here. So I don't hate it. That's a really good point is like much like, you know, there's, we talked about this back when it was happening in real time at the beginning of the season, there's this aspect of like, okay, wait, why are Fiske and Vanessa revealing their innermost secrets to Matt Murdoch's girlfriend, which I will just say, I still have a question about, even though we understand

that it was all about, you know, gaining this, making Matt feel vulnerable the way that they had penetrated his life. I'm sorry to say penetration while talking about Heather and Matt. We still haven't gotten nearly enough sex from those two, though, you know, the shower scene. Shower scene. Shower scene. But he cut off too soon. I'm sorry.

It was implied. Yeah, I know. But why? You guys remember the boxing ring? Remember the boxing ring with Electro and Matt? I mean, this was a show where once we watched Electra feed Matt Murdoch chunks of cheese on the tip of the knife. So I just, I have a standard in my mind. And it's true.

But, you know, the idea that like we're wondering. is it possible that she has duped everybody so fully, and it's actually not really even occurring to Wilson Fisk that she might know this, or is he aware that she might know it? And thus, he considers it more important to have her visibly in his orbit. In there, at the confirmed desk,

the wood has been marked and confirmed by Vanessa's keen artistic eye, to say like, okay, you want to get close to me because you're after me, well, I'm going to keep an eye on you. That part of the, like, dance, I think you're right, Ben, is really interesting. Speaking of dancing, no, we're not ready to talk about the ball yet. We're talking about swordsmen.

We saw those moves on the playground. I'll basically take Jack, a little dose of Jack, whenever I can get it. I think the performance is just, yeah, so funny and wonderful. Do you guys anticipate this, like, leveraging of, a Jack's swordsman identity in particular for Red Hook funds to have an actual bearing on the events of the finale or is this playing to you as more like

using another character we know to show us the way that Fisk is going to use beyond the task force and the I mean God the reporter and the hand in the friar scene let me just say this about the reporter turn your flash off

and silence the shutter sound on your fund like what are you doing I was like, what are you doing? You're trying to be like a secret op and not get caught. You can't have a flash. He's like feet away from them. But yeah, is it just one more way to like enforce the way that Fisk is using his anti-vigilante pursuits to control every aspect of city life, funds for Red Hook, etc. Or do you think that Jack is going to actually have like a bearing on the finale in some way?

I'd like to think that this isn't just another example of just a reference to another Marvel entity for no particular reason. just a character we recognize. I don't mind because, again, Tony Dalton, but it did seem like it was just sort of trying to convey how Fisca has come up in the world. I don't know that it was necessary because there was the other scene with the socialites who basically talked down to him earlier in the season

and then now is cowed by him and shows up out of fear. So it does illustrate how he has kind of conquered this world that he was not naturally a part of and he now has the political capital to get actual capital. capital from all the rich people who were kind of opposing him before. Right. But it seems like there might be another reason to have, I would hope, that there will be,

you know, with all the vigilante stuff that's going on here, one would hope that we will get to see some swordsmen other than the brief footage that we've gotten thus far. I hope. Yeah. This is where I will plead the fifth. Now we talked about this a little bit already. I saw it way back, like, when like Disney gave us like a week or so to watch the. Sip it. Don't even. We don't want any tippin. Say nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Don't tell us. Okay. Let's talk about the just really great ball dance floor sequence. And how we got there, how we got there, how Matt got there, how our guide decks got there, all of it. I thought that the Omelvany's dot connecting that Matt did at Josies. First of all, great to see Josies. we miss Josies. We miss Hell's Kitchen. I always love to see the kitchen as we Hell's kitchen residents call it. The kitchen. I mean, Ben, you know, I always think of when we were across the street neighbors

before we knew each other when we both lived in Hell's Kitchen when the time that was. I would say maybe we were drinking at Josie's on the same nights, but neither of us ever went out drinking. So probably didn't happen. I, you know, because of what that bottle represented, the way that Matt and Fogg would share that celebratory glass when they won a case

and what it meant to be able to save up for this thing that reflected more than even what it was. For that to play a role in Matt being able to piece together, like he was celebrating early, he was going to win, someone wanted to silence him. Just like any of the moments in the season where Foggy has been like actively on Matt's mind, like holding the card in his hands,

I've appreciated and found nice. I have to be honest. that like just hearing Matt say dumb Benny again was like kind of silly and like okay sure we've got like an hour left but yeah um but I really liked that part of it and then you know Dex like Matt going because he's trying to piece it together and he still thinks it's Fisk before he realizes it's Vanessa to wind up in that room with desk I mean that was like a harrowing scene the way that Dex is not only like working him and obviously like you know Matt's rage and violent impulses, which of course is how he would describe Dex, right?

This violent force of nature who can't control his own bad impulses. And then Matt is the one slamming Dex's head into the table so that he's able to then loosen his own tooth to, and frankly, just astonishing velocities, hurl into the eye of the guard. Great stuff, wild stuff. I thought like that moment when Dex was like, you know, in another life you would have been defending me, right? Like, isn't that what good men do defend their words? worst enemies, which on the one hand just helps set up Matt jumping in front of Fisk to take a bullet for his worst enemy. But also, like, when Matt is forced to look into one of those dark mirrors and assess something about himself, it is always when the show is at its best. So I really love that deck scene and just all of those different elements that got all of the key figures to the dance at the end.

What did it do to both of you to see Benjamin Poindexter back in the fray? shooting teeth into people's eyeballs. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's so tough because I keep on trying to just evaluate this show on its own. You can't. And it's impossible, exactly. It's just so hard because so much of what I love about this episode is how it's finally tied back to the first episode, which is thereby just tying it back to the original series. And, like, Dex is such a great villain in that third season of Daredevil.

Like, I went back and rewatched a little bit more of it in Preparapur. for it and there's just so much that you get with Dex, whether it's like the way that they go back in his life through therapy, just all the scenes that are with him and Julie. And you just get to understand who this character is so much in a way that you didn't with Muse, especially. And seeing him back here, you still have all of that character development. It's like a cheat code. You have all of that built in already because of the original Daredevil series. And because of that, seeing them back together in that room and like them talking again, it just like worked so well for me.

And it's tough, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, missing, the middle episodes missed a lot of that where they're really building. There, there's some things I liked about the whole muse storyline, but ultimately for him to really be introduced and killed in the same episode was like, it totally fell flat for me. Yeah, I think to your point, Daniel, Ben, I want to hear your thoughts on bull's eye, but like, to that, to that, to that point, Daniel, I think like one of the things that really made that, um, uh, visiting, visiting Dex and Prison scene so successful was like, yeah, you can't,

not only can we not ignore that the first three seasons of the Netflix series existed, but they're inviting us to think about it because it ultimately was rolled out as like a continuation of that show. But the thing is like, and so of course you can't watch what happened on the roof in the first episode

and appreciate it fully without the history of those characters from the first three seasons. You can't. So I'm not implying. But what is true is that when you're watching this episode, something from this season of TV is very top of mind also, which is Matt fine. Dex is the person to remind Matt not only of the great loss of losing Foggy, but of Matt losing himself. Matt pushed he did the thing he said he would never do. He pushed him off the roof.

And just because he ended up, because of his augmentations, surviving it doesn't mean that Matt didn't intend to kill him. And so Matt has to stare that truth in the face. And that was something that happened in this season. And so it was one of the more successful news story melded with our history and old story that we've gotten so far. So I think that was part of why it worked really well, too. Ben, you know, listen, this is a baseball origin story ultimately. It is. And you're a baseball expert.

So where are you with Dex at this point, eight episodes into Born Again? Were you happy to see him? Yes, I think, I mean, I guess it reflects the difference in creative teams and just the degree of the connective tissue to the preceding series as opposed to wanting this to stand on its own. And I think even though I am generally in the camp of, hey, let's do something new, not the same thing that we've seen before. I think if, as Daniel said, you sort of fail to establish the new character or the new villain as, you know, tall order to try to make up for several existing seasons in one season, but even. by those standards. It felt almost like, you know, the music, it was kind of like our black mirror complaints about some episodes where it was like, that's it. We just, that's the reveal and it's over. And so it just wasn't really developed enough to be satisfying. So I like that here at the end of the

season and potentially in future seasons, they've just kind of said, okay, people like these characters and they like the history of these characters. And so we're just going to focus on the people that you like and actually want to see on the screen here. That said, I hope that. that they can establish new characters and new storylines in future seasons that aren't just solely callbacks. But at this point, I think when you're trying to reestablish this world and this cast, you know, give the people what they want. But I think also has got to get some kind of like silent rifle that he's like maybe so that you can cock it without alerting that from walks away. Like it's got to be some sort of solution there. I mean, he heard it over all the clinking of the glass.

All the ice and the whiskey tumblers, he still, he's still. Yeah. I mean, my goodness. Hours of perception this season are just, I think, especially when he felt Heather's face on the drawing by use. I still can't believe that. Yeah, he's really, he's really leveled up. I'm not over that. From a sensory perspective.

Yeah, that was, if we had the pendants from Betta noir and could make a reality where something changed, I would change that that happened in the season of Daredevil born again. Let's talk about what Matt learns, which is that Vanessa did it. This was a very popular theory. A lot of people thought this was what we would learn that Vanessa was the one who ordered bull's eye to attack, to kill Foggy. This is new to Matt, and it certainly seems like Fist does not know.

So Matt takes the bullet, but there's an information hail of bullets coming here too. I don't want to ask, I don't want to frame this as like, predict because of what you just reminded us of, Daniel, that you've long ago, and it's not necessarily all fresh, but you have seen the finale. So we're not going to frame it as like, where is this heading? But more, what does it mean? What does it mean for these characters given the pledge that Fiske and Matt made, as we all love to talk about while Vanessa was just sort of like in the room kind of like not getting out of harm's way in the season three finale?

This is like a known thing. They all know that this was the bargain that they made, right? There was a violation of this. and then that information was not shared with Fisk. So my feeling on their relationship and where they are now is not that Fisk would be like, okay, I could forgive you for Adam, but not for this. It's that their devotion to each other will always be supreme.

Like it will always find a way through whatever is, whatever obstacle emerges in front of it, and that they will, at the end of the day, despite their maybe disappointment in each other and resentment of something that the other person did, be able to justify their bad behavior to themselves and their bad behavior to each other because they care about each other that much.

Maybe that's just what I want to believe that, but that sort of is the story so far, right? So I'm not necessarily, perhaps foolishly, but I'm not necessarily worried that Fisk is going to be like, we're done now because you violated my pledge to Matt Murdoch. That just doesn't seem likely to me. I'm trying not to look at Daniel's eyes

and what he might be like. I'm trying to just give a poker face right here. Into my head. But I do think it's notable just given its proximity to the like we've finally worked through it all. We put it all out there. We said the things that we needed to say. And now here we are turning the page on the next chapter of our life. And then to be kind of sucked right back in and subsumed by not just the specific thing,

but more the idea that there's something always waiting around the corner for them to be like surprised by inside of their relationship. feels really interesting to me. And Matt, like, taking the bullet, I would be shud. I'm assuming and Freeman, it's like, that feels more like shoulder to me than vital organ. Like, I just feel like we're still going to see Matt Murdoch in the Daredevil suit in the finale

and that we kind of have to. And I guess the idea of him being slightly wounded is, it's always interesting. You know, so much of season three was, like, Matt barely functioning, like insisting on going out and finding a way to fight anyway. So I kind of like, when we see him in that state.

But yeah, what stood out most to you from Matt learning this truth about Vanessa and the fact that Fisk doesn't know it yet? Yeah, it did seem like the score was even after each of them betrayed the other and then kind of made amends. So Vanessa betrayed Wilson with Adam's magic hands and then made up for that by executing him. And Wilson betrayed her by leaving and then came back and reaffirmed his commitment. to her. And so now they're finally just, you know, speaking to each other and cooperating and collaborating and then this wrench gets thrown in. This is just a world with a lot of secrets and a lot of deception

and a lot of lies deception, a lot of betrayal that is happening here. So it kind of comes with the territory. Yeah. It did feel to me like, as you said, people had proposed that this might be the twist, given the investigative skills that Matt has, the fact that that. That's the fact that. this possibility didn't occur to him seemingly before this reveal. She seems like she should have been on the leading list of suspects, given that she was essentially running things during this period, given that she has a history of ordering hits. Yeah, there's kind of that parallel.

Wouldn't a deem, right? Yeah. And given the pledge that Wilson had made, you'd think that it might have occurred to Matt before this point that maybe I should be looking at Vanessa also. I like that, you know, she's wearing the red dress at the end. now when we get the mirroring there of the colors and everything. So yeah, you would think that there would have to be some sort of bullseye daredevil showdown in costume again, kind of bringing things full circle from the brineer.

Not looking at Daniel either, but probably also there's some sort of showdown with Matt and Vanessa or is it Matt and Wilson or is it both Fisks tag team? or did they turn on each other? There are just a lot of different ways that this could go. Yeah. I liked how they were kind of leveraging that information against each other when there's the partner swap.

That was so funny when Fisk and Heather were just sort of like swaying. The side dancing. Yeah, no, that was hilarious. Also, does really like that moment, too, where Fisk is just kind of speaking, like, knowing that Murdoch is going to hear it. That was great. He's, like, talking to him. Yeah, yeah.

And Murdoch is, like, listening and Heather's, like, what's going on? Like, there are a lot of really cool storytelling things. I feel like they did. Just in general with sound, I like a lot of what they do. Like, even with Matt hearing Vanessa's heartbeat starting to rise, like, starting to get faster as she's trying to tell him about what she's done. Yes. So a lot of that worked well for me, too. Again, like going back to what I was saying earlier with Vanessa, I still wish I had just like seen a little bit more of her throughout the season.

So it's like you get a little bit more. I don't know, they might have tipped their hand a little bit too much that way. But just to get a little bit more insight into where she is right now. because I really liked that moment at the end of that episode where she, that test of loyalty, where she turns on Luca, finally getting Luca out of the picture, which just needed to happen. Thank you for your service, Vanessa. Thanks, both, Cashman. Yeah, but, like, I think she's been great in her small moments.

So, like, it was fun for me to see that come back around. Yeah, and I feel like, I mean, we'll find out in mere days, but, you know, how much of this ends up being about dumb Benny and the actual, like, five-family's crime lord aspect of what's going on in running New York. And how much of it was almost like, are we going to find out the Vanessa was like, yeah, no, of course I knew that was your pledge. And that was the point you left me. And so I wanted to blow up this thing that was like sacred to you because you weren't here. You hurt me.

So I was going to hurt you and almost will feel like a continuation of this closure from this wound. But I like, you know, one of the things that I really enjoy about Vanessa as a character is that she stands her ground, whether it's with Fisk or whether it's with Matt in this moment. when he's like, does he know, does he know you had foggy killed? And she's just like, she's not like, uh, uh, uh, I'm going to excuse me, I have to go powder my nose. She's like, does Heather know your daredevil? Right? Like, she's just always ready to fight back.

Grabbs his like bow tie like that, too. The little flick off of that was so funny to me. Yeah, so that was really good. So curious to see what happens in the finale. We're not going to ask Daniel. I'm tempted to ask Daniel if Matt finally goes to church. That's really, honestly, of all the things. All I really want for the finale is,

like for some church stuff. I need Matt to have a really meaningful Catholic moment in the finale as we were like bull's eyes back. We got some Frank Castle. We're talking about, oh, Melvonese, give me some church, please, God. But Daniel can't answer this, but Ben, is there anything that you are particularly invested in heading in the finale that you want to cite? Well, aside from everything we've talked about with the Wilson and Vanessa relationship and Matt and their whole triangle, whatever quadrangle it is, with. Heather. I guess also whether when when Heather finds out presumably, which probably should have happened by this point. But when the reveal occurs, does that get her out of the picture,

which I wouldn't be sorry to see her go? Or does that lead to some reframing of this relationship in her mind? If that is the last draw for her, does that open the fridge for Karen to come out at some point, potentially, or, you know, I'd also like to see some punishing happen in the finale, as you mentioned, just a punisher punishing the imitators, the posers who were using his logo without attribution, without infringing on his trademark. So I'd like to see him come back and sort of set up a bigger role for him or, you know, other roles for him. Yes.

I hope they're not going to save all of it for the, the Punisher special. Let's give us a little bridge in the finale, please. Yes. Okay, guys, great to talk to you about the penultimate Daredevil Born Again. Great to talk to you about an entire season of Black Mirror. We crammed in a lot. It was a blast. Thank you both not only for joining for today's podcast, but again, Ben, thank you for braving the great outdoors. I'm proud of you. I appreciate my sacrifice. Now that I know where the studio is, I could come back anytime. Will you?

That would be great. We'd love it. Thank you as well to Carlos Chereboga, who is producing this episode, the best always. Thank you to Arjunoram Gapal for his production supervision now and always. Thank you to Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to a couple members of the team who are helping us out today with our video production, with the studios, Kate Ahern, legend icon, is out there with you guys in New York.

And then out here in L.A., Jonathan Frias and Oscar de la Luce have been helping us with today's episode. So a full team effort to allow us to podcast today. This was a sub-hosts, producers, everyone rallied so that we could pod today. So thank you to the entire squad. We appreciate it. And, guys, I hope that you enjoy the Daredevil finale. next week. Obviously, I hope everybody enjoys the Last of Us season two premiere.

Can't wait for Butemash. Daniel can't wait to read all your pieces. It's going to be a fun content McGettin stretch ahead. See you guys then.