House of R - ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 1 Rewatch

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

It’s finally time for Mal and Jo to venture into the Hellmouth! They start their ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ rewatch with Season 1! They talk about their favorite episodes, most dated moments, the best fits, how hot Giles is, and more! (00:00) Intro (08:15) Opening Snapshot (49:33) Our Favorites (01:36:02) Favorite Line (01:42:21) Best Villain of the Week (01:51:24) Best Fit (01:55:28) Favorite Episode (01:59:25) Best Coredlia-ism (02:02:44) Best Guest Star (02:06:41) When Willow Cries, We Cry (02:14:02) Best Fight Scene (02:18:44) Horniest Moment (02:24:07) Most 1997 Thing (02:27:26) Cringiest Low-Budget Moment (02:31:13) Most Creative Dusting (02:33:20) Funniest Moment (02:36:25) Most Emotional Moment Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Carlos Chiriboga, John Richter, and Chris Thomas Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Hello, welcome back to the most important episode ever of House of Our. I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me today. She is the one podcaster in all the world. It's Mallory Rubin.

Hello, salty goodness. Oh, hello. Oh, guys, we're here to talk about Buffy Vampire Slayer. Oh, my goodness. A long promised, long teased, long thought about episode. We had to do it someday. Mallory always said, like, we're going to do it someday. I never wanted to pressure her into doing it.

And here we are. Here we are, Buffy Vampire Slayer. Oh, my God. We are covering today in one episode of, I don't know, a five-hour podcast. I don't know how long we're going to go. that we're covering all of season one. And it's our plan going forward that probably in future seasons we're going to try to get like two episodes per season or something like that. But these are run through of a season.

We're not doing episode by episode. We're kind of going season by season. Yeah. Go back around. Before we get into all the things we have to talk about in season one of Buffy. All right. So before we get into all of that, quick programming reminders, Mallory and I and our pal Romahoney are continuing to cover

Alien Earth. We only have a few episodes of that left, but we're going to do that as a trio for the rest of the season, a little Scooby Gang action from us on that. And this week, we got a chance to talk to Noah Hawley and Babu Sise. So that interview

is part of our episode that we released earlier this week. So we are really excited about that. And then, obviously, we're here today to talk to you about both the Vampire Slayer. Next week we're talking about hot nolan summer it's technically still summer it is it is by the calendar by all calendars september is still summer uh so hot nolan summer we're going to wrap it up with

the prestige uh which we meant to do in august but someone got sick here we are um we also have some plans to cover peacemaker and uh several other goodies and speaking of peacemaker the midnight boys Pube-Pew are doing their peacemaker sort of week-by-week reactions that is happening over there. Mali Rubin, that's a lot to keep track of. A lot of goodness from us. How can folks keep up with all that content? Thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend.

Follow the pods. Follow House of R. Follow the Ring ofverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And guess what? You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys PooPew on Spotify. and on the Ringervverse YouTube channel. So subscribe there as well. While you're at it,

follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing and send us your emails because the inbox is always open. Hobbit and Dragons at gmail.com. We did get a bunch of emails from listeners who were watching Buffy, maybe rewatching it,

or in several cases, watching for the first time because they heard that we were doing it. It's very exciting. Some of them were like, Hey, man, I started my rewatch, I started my watch on my rewatch when you said you were going to start. And now I'm on season four? What's your published scheduling? I don't want to overpromise and under deliver a Paul of Fame.

So I will just say... Not sure what you mean or what you're referencing. It is, we have no firm schedule. But I do know that Mallory plans to start watching season two immediately. Tonight. She's very excited to do that. Finishing this pod, got a few afternoon meetings, Thursday night football, NFL kickoff, Buffy season two episode one.

So we're very excited to keep going, absolutely. So we don't have a firm schedule. We plan to be done at least in time for the Buffy reboot, which just began filming this month. And that's Chloe Zhao, is exec producing and directing, Nora and Lila Zuckerman, Sarah Michelle Gellor's involved Skeleting Crew's own Ryan Kira Armstrong is the new Slayer Severance's Sarah Bach is here

the studios Chase Suey Wenders is here and I'm really excited Alias is Marin Dunjee who played Francie on alias huge, huge for me personally this is this this one's for me it's a great cast so I don't have firm answers for you about

like when we're going to do about people we'll keep you informed and we are really excited to do it and like this is I just want to say you know, I mean, I know everyone listening has experienced something like this, where you have like this most precious thing to you. And you want to share it with a person who is so precious to you. And you were so anxious if they're going to like it. If they're going to see what you see in it. If they can better understand who you are having watched it and stuff like that.

So this is, you know, Mallory and I have talked about some striking parallels between her relationship with Harry Potter and my relationship with. Buff the Vampire Slayer. This is my foundational text. And it is a thrill of my life to get to share it with you on this podcast, but I got the joy of sitting and watching a bunch of episodes with you when I was in town. So just like I feel really lucky. And I am just like already emotional because this is so important to me. Tear it up. Tear it up already. Yeah. So what are you saying? The thrill of my life to be sharing this with you, I can't wait to get into all of it, our big picture thoughts. I can't wait to hear more about what this means to you, what the beginning of your journey was like. I feel like on the one hand, this had to be the most stressful

of the things we've shared with each other yet because of how dear it is to you, right? The stakes are so high and also had to be the surest thing yet. Like, there was never a doubt. It was never a doubt. It's so good. It just is. I was going to feel about it. And also, like we've talked about many times before, I've always wanted to watch Buffy and known that it was this missing thing, that something in my life was not yet complete because I had not watched Buffy. And so what better way to do it than watching it with you? And like, you know, we talked about this a little bit when we started our Dr. Who pods, because that was another show that I got to experience for the first time with you, who had seen it many times before. And like, especially,

actually hearing you say that we've heard from a lot of bad babies who are like, I'm going to, I hadn't done this. I'm going to do it now. I just want to like quickly hit a note that I hit on the doctor who pods too and that we've both hit elsewhere before. It's like, it is never too late. Sometimes it can feel like, man, I miss this thing and all these other people love it and they cherish it and they talk about it and they reference it. And I feel like, oh, my God, like, can I admit I haven't seen it or read it or whatever? Like, could I possibly catch up? There are so many episodes. Did it have to be consumed in that specific period of time? No. It's never too late to fall in love with something for the first time. And when you get to share it with somebody who loves it so much and they are your guide as Joe is my guide, it is just like the gift of all gifts. There's no one I would rather confront the hell mouth with than you. I'm just so excited to be doing this. I will say you did spoil me by watching some episodes in person with me though. Like now I'm like to do it. Well, I'll be, I'll be back.

in a couple weeks. So maybe save some season two for me. Get a little of season two together. And like, I'm not the only one who's expecting it now. We had a third member of our viewing party. Halo was there. Not your husband. Adam watched it through with me the first time.

And he already has seen it. But yeah, Halo was there. So he'll be expecting your return. Halo was key to our enjoyment of those episodes. Speaking of people who are watching for the first time, because we're covering it, That is true of our beloved producer Carlos Chiroboga, who let me know months ago when we first decided we were going to cover the show that he was going to watch Buffy Vampires later for the first time. He is already in season three. I'm getting season three texts from Carlos.

But I have been told that he put together a special presentation. So we're going to listen to this now before our opening snapshot. So Carlos hit me with what you have. have put together. In every generation, there is a chosen pod. They alone will dive deep into the 90s fashion, vampiric skin care, and menu offerings at the bronze. They are House of R.

Oh my God, beautiful. Carlos, your announcer voice is so good. Very good. Killer. The menu at the bronze is maybe the deepest mystery of all that we will talk about today. Spoiler warning, if we didn't already mention it, through season one of Buffy. Mallory is not watched Beyond, as we mentioned.

We will not be referencing things that come in future seasons. We want to keep Mallory pure for what's to come. So you only have to watch up through season one of Buffy Vampire Slayer. Let's go now to our opening snapshot. We're back. Mallory has had a slight costume change

and we should say... Yes, continuity error with my headphones had to be done. Classic season one Buffy continuity error, honestly. Exactly. We should say if you're not watching this episode. Mallory has come dressed as one of her favorite characters, which is she's wearing overalls. Yeah. A cute tie-dye shirt. She had her hair down earlier,

but now the headphones have entered the chat. Yeah. Your homage to Willow Rosenberg. When I saw Willow break out the overalls, I knew it had to be done. And I had recently purchased not one but two pair of overalls and yet had not found the opportunity. to wear them. And this felt like the moment. And guess what it was the moment? The other choice would have been, of course, to wear my finest cardigan, blazer, glasses, and dress as Giles. But then I would have had to include a green apple in the cosplay, and that's where I draw the line. Wow. She has her standards, folks. Okay. A brief snapshot of why Buffy the Vampire Slayer is such an important story, not just to me, but to the world of pop culture. Buffer premiered.

in 1997 as a mid-season replacement. And this was a few years before kind of nerds, nerddom, sci-fi fantasy genre, storytelling really took over and became the predominant, you know, genre in pop culture. I know that Willow at one point in this season says, it's the computer age nerds are in. She's a little premature when it comes to pop culture. Because Buffy played a huge part in that takeover. We're post-X-Files, and that's, you know, X-Files played a huge role in the introduction of sci-fi fantasy into broader pop culture. But we're pre-comic book movie surge,

pre-Hare-Rurge, pre-Jackson Lord of the Ring trilogy. Night 97, this is the year of ER, Friends, Seinfeld, Titanic, Air Force One, my best friend's wedding. Willow and Zander as two outcasts, not by choice, and Buffy as sort of a who chooses to cast her lot in with them, were very unusual leads

for any TV show, let alone teen television, which at this time was like 90210 or saved by the bell. Those are like the teens we were used to following in the early 90s. So this is just like a different flavor of teenager. And for me personally, as someone who would align myself more with the Willow and Zanders of the world than, you know, the Kelly Kapowski's or, you know, Brendan and Brenda, like this mattered a lot to me. Like, this mattered a lot to me. Representation matters for the nerds. So here we are. And,

influential as, like, a piece of storytelling, many, many, many film and TV writers and directors cite Buffy as a famous and, like, a favorite and highly influential show for them. Yeah. David Simon. Ever... Ever...

Love him. ...lopperlowe. David Foster Wallace, Marlon James. Buffy clearly shaped the TV of the TV of the TV. the early aughts beyond with like women like Amy Sherman Palladino, Gilmore Girls talks about how influential Buffy was. Shonda Rhymes of Grey's Anatomy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, Bridgeton talks about how Buffy was her favorite TV show and really inspired her as a TV creator.

Russell T. Davies, who used it as a blueprint for his reboot of Doctor Who, which we talked about at length when we did our Doctor Who podcast. Damon Lindelof, who leaned on it to create a TV show called Lost, which you might have heard of. Twilight. Vampire Diaries, True Blood, Veronica Mars, Supernatural, and most certainly, and relevant to right now, K. Poc Demon Hunters. Hell yeah. And, I mean, I want to shout out that Kipok Demon Hunters is, of course, also drawing on a long history of anime and stuff like that.

But it is also playing in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer Pool. Yeah. Anything you want to say about that? So this has been an interesting part of not having. seen Buffy previously and now starting to watch Buffy because there are a couple different contributing factors to what I would describe as feeling like I had not in a way that at all diminished my desire to watch it properly, but like genuinely feeling like I had absorbed some of Buffy via osmosis throughout my life, right? And some of that was watching a lot of other WB shows

while Buffy was on and just like seeing a lot of promos for Buffy or Angel when I was watching Felicity or Dawson's Creek or Jack and Jill or whatever the case may be, right? That was a big part of it. But then this, like hearing you go through all of the creators who would say Buffy is a sacred text, a formative text, Buffy contributed in some way to how they thought of the worlds that they wanted to, not just an habit, but craft and forge. So when watching those shows or reading those stories, when you hear people talk about,

like hearing you talk about how influential Buffy has been on many of the things that we've covered or hearing, those creators talk about it, you start to form a sense of what the thing is because of what it influenced. You start to understand it, like reverse engineering that understanding, which is sort of an interesting way

to kind of like think about a thing and then to go in and consume it properly. Yeah. It's such an interesting experience. And I think probably like there are a number of people who have that sort of relationship to Buffy where they're like, I have a sense of this, either conceptually or even beyond that. Oh, if Buffy influenced Dr. Who, if Buffy influenced Dr. Who, then I have certain, I understand certain aspects of it before I've even seen it. But then to properly start to understand those, right, is like a really kind of magical thing. And then the other element of that was season one is that I know, despite only having seen season one, that I still don't really know. Right.

It doesn't hit its stride until season two. Yeah. I would say the season one finale is like a real, like a corner that it turned. Fantastic. But yeah, you get, this is proto-buffy is what you're getting here. Right. And what I really agree with you, everything you said about it's never too late. Yes.

At the same time, when you get something like this that has been so influential and so imitated over and over and iterated over and over, then some of the things that were absolute lightning strike innovations in Buffy will then feel like, oh, I don't know. I've seen stuff like that before. And so it's going to be my job to be like, we hadn't seen this shit before. When he did this, we didn't know. You have a couple of those coming today in that outline when I was like, whoa! Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's really interesting to think about, yeah, to reverse engineer your understanding of something like Buffy. And, you know, certainly when, and I mean when I get around to watching The Sopranos, I will have a very similar experience because, of course, Sopranos influenced so many of the shows that I love that came after it.

And I also feel like I have a sense of what The Sopranos is, but it will be very different to actually watch it. It's like a little, what you're describing reminds me a little bit of the conversation we've had a couple times, both when covering Star Wars and when we cover Dune, when people are like, boy, I watched these new Dune movies. It feels like a lot of Star Wars in my Dune. And it's like, well, actually. Actually. And that's an interesting, you know, that's an interesting, when you think about the passage of time. It's just an interesting thing about the passage of time. But no, I think it is.

it's one of the great genuine joys of like not just getting to watch stuff and read stuff, but then talk about it together on the pod, right? Is to like trace those lines of influence and understand the coaching trees and what originated where, stemmed from where. And then you think not, you know, none of this stuff is linear. It's like all the web. And it's just really great to see so many new sparkly strands of it. Curly tendrils of story.

Listen, I'm going to have a Justin disclaimer in a second, but before I get to that, perhaps out of order, I should say, we have to acknowledge the huge influence that the Weiden tone, the Weedan language as a massive shaper of the MCU, you know, an era of the MCU, like not just that phase or he was heavily involved, but the way in which that was just iterated and iterated and iterated across the MCU. weed in tone just shaped the whole thing. And also, yeah. We must acknowledge the astonishing parallels between I-Robot, Eugene, and Age of Ultron. Mollick and Ultron both being like, I'm in the Internet. Did not know that that parallel awaited me. Shocking stuff. You know, an equally successful endeavors, I would say.

The way in which this show masters and popularizes the idea of episodic storytelling inside of a season-long arc was revolutionary. This show coined the term big bad. This was a shock to me. This was the one where I was like, what? Yeah, it comes from this. It's the reason, if you go to the TV tropes website, a website that I love to visit as we explore certain texts, if you go to the landing page for Bothy Vampire Slayer, the opening of that is Buffy Vampire Slayer is the reason this website exists. It is the germination of so many tropes that we've come to know and love. But yeah, the idea of the big bad comes from Buffy Vampire Slayer.

seven seasons 1997 to 2003 on the WB and then UPN and I just want to really shout out I think about this all the time whenever there's like a one and done season of something on Netflix that so many networks

and streamers are so quick on the trigger to cancel things and I think all the time about how the WB would be well within their rights to have canceled Buff Vampire Slayer after this first season, which is bumpy, did not get good ratings. I was like poking around the ratings list. You have to scroll all the way to the bottom to a section that's known as anemic to find where Buffy Vampire Slayer is a mid-season replacement.

And so if it had been canceled after the first season, like the, what is that parallel universe? I don't want to live in it, you know? So like that's just a completely, that's something that nowadays Buffy would be canceled after its first season. In season two, it was the Tuesday night lead-in to Dawson's Creek, the first season of Dawson's Creek, which was a huge cultural phenomenon. So even though it never matched like NBC, must-cTV friends and Seinfeld and all of that, it gave it a boost. Though, I should say, and we will come to appreciate this whenever we come to a season finale, every season they thought maybe this is going to be the last season of Buffy Vampire Slayer.

So every season finale kind of operates as a series finale, except for season four. But after that, they're just like, is this the one where we don't make it? Interesting. That is the history of Buffy Vampire Slayer. Joss Whedon. I will say, you know, a lot of information has come out about Joss Whedon in the last two years. Mallory and I have had a lot of conversations, both on-air and off-air, about creators whose work we love, who we find, I don't know, problematic is not even probably a big enough word for some of these folks whose work we have. devoured. For some people finding out about Joss Whedon's behavior on set, which was

deeply terrorizing and inappropriate and all of these things, they're like, well, that's Ruin Buffet the Vampire Slayer for me. And if that's the case, then that is your decision. For me, Buffy Vampire Slayer is such a foundational text for me that I can't peel away sort of who I am in my understanding of story from this particular story. Does not excuse anything that we didn't did. And when we talk about the things that we didn't does well artistically, it coexist side by side with deeply problematic, troubling personal behaviors from him. So I just wanted to put that out there and acknowledge that this is something that for some people has turned them off on the show. And I understand that completely. So what is wrong with

us, Mallory, that we love all these things created by these terribly problematic people? I don't know. What's wrong with those people? that they're so reprehensible. Absolutely. Mali Urban, you already mentioned a bit. You've given us a little sneak peek, but give us your sort of big picture. What was your experience like going through

the famously spotty you were warned first season of Buffy Vampire Slayer? Oh, man, I had a blast. I just had a great time. I really loved it. Like, I just, it's interesting because I'm watching it in a couple ways, right?

Like, I'm watching it through your eyes. I'm watching it through my own eyes. I'm watching it through the eyes of just like this understanding of knowing how foundational and like elemental it is as a story, a fandom, like a community for so many people who I love. And like knowing that season one is while the beginning of the journey, not at the same level as subsequent seasons is like, I think helpful knowledge to have when you go in. But I'll say, like, I wonder if I, I guess I can't, I can't say if I would have felt this way exactly if I hadn't known that, but I do know that. So I can't, like, rob myself of that knowledge, right?

I'm like, man, I know that it's like season two, season three. We're cooking. Yeah. And so I think that allowed me to like, even the, you know, outright goofy episodes that we get, I found, I just found, like, quite charming. Obviously, some of these episodes are outstanding and some of them are not. And like, the season is uneven and it is mixed overall. But like, you know, you asked me at one point, like to kind of put a number on my experience. And it was really high because I wasn't just watching it thinking about season one and the quality of season one.

I'm like, I have begun. I have stepped into the world. I've taken my first step into a larger world, right? Like, I've begun my journey. Yeah. So that part of it was just so thrilling. And I think especially, I really liked the beginning of the season, there are some episodes in the elsewhere that I really love as well.

I thought the finale was like easily the best episode of the season. Spoiler, we've got some proletives coming. And even though we will be talking about the finale before then, a ton of my picks are still from the finale. I kind of like couldn't help it. So I just thought I was like, man, I would start the, I would boot up the next episode right now if I didn't like want to force myself to wait. So I'm so excited for all that's ahead. And like, there's just so much here.

This is why I was saying earlier, this had to be like the surest bet on the board knowing that I would love this because it's just, it has so much of what I find like rewarding and fulfilling in a story and in a world and what I gravitate toward. Like, obviously, as you know, I love a chosen one tale. I love a, I love a friend group and a found family unit, like watching. the relationship forged between Buffy and Giles. I love a guide. I love a mentor. Watching the friendship between Buffy and Willow and Zander. It's just some of my favorite stuff there is.

I love a town where mysterious things are happening. I love that, right? Yeah, what is the upside down if not the other side of the hell now? Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, that's a good example, right, of what you were saying earlier. where like, I'm sure there are going to be people who come to Buffy late and are like, this reminds me of Hawkins. And of course, like, how could Sunnydale not be foundational strands of DNA for what Hawkins is? And it's interesting to now think about it that way.

And then, you know, you mentioned this on, it seems good, good segue. Like Chris Ryan, I'll say out loud, good segue. On to, you said on our last Stranger Things pod when we did our season two revisited pod last last week, you cited, because this is obviously very present in Stranger Things as well, and you cited that this was something we would talk about with Buffy. This was just like one of my single favorite things about the first season and just about the overall kind of like fabric of the world and fabric of the character sets. I love a coming of age story. Yeah.

And to watch young people who are trying to navigate their lives and figure out who they are and assess their own sense of self and like discover their identity. To watch routine things take fantastical form. the melding of like the way that the supernatural can give shape to the anxieties that drive young life is like just masterfully done. And as I understand it will only get better from here. Like the idea of, you know, episode 11, out of mind, out of sight. Not my favorite episode of the season necessarily, but the idea that like feeling invisible, you're in high school and you feel invisible and then you literally turn invisible,

I'm like, bow down. I know. Exactly. Your anxieties and your fears and your nightmares manifest. And not only do they manifest tangibly, they manifest in front of your friends or your peers or the people you want to like you. You open your textbook and spiders come out. Or you actually genuinely are not prepared for your quiz. Or you do show up naked in class, right?

Or whatever the case may be, like your parents don't think you're living up to your promise. Or you're not living your life in a way that allows them to vicariously live through you. and so they body swap, like, you know, on and on and on. The list goes, you take a date to the morgue, and then he's like, I kind of liked it. You get catfish by a demon. Who has not been there? So I just loved all of that. And then, I mean, obviously, Buffy is an incredible character, and it's so wonderful to have her in my life.

I, you and Rob and I were texting about this, and you were like, basically, Vegas took this off the board. Like, I just love Giles and Willow so much in a way that you, a person who knows me very well, sure, obviously anticipated. They're just already only 12 episodes in characters who I am so invested in and care so deeply about. Like, that's just a great feeling. So I cannot wait for season two and for the show to level up to that, like, god tier space. But I really am just so happy already to have dipped my toe. into the bloody, boiling pits of Sunnydale.

Thank you for inviting me on this journey with you. That goopy pool that the master rises out of without a single drop of anything on him. Okay, so thank you so much for sharing that. I want to say the thing that I was most excited about it, as you were texting me about your journey through season one, is almost all of your texts, and it's always fun to receive a Mallory Live text, experience, they were so character-based. It was so much about how you were falling in love with these characters, which is what saves season one. I think, I have a strong affection for season one.

Yeah. But I really understand how it's off-putting for a lot of people who were not there at the time. And because I was watching Buffy from the start, I really understand that if you were not there in 1997, you're like, I can't see anything. What's with these weird puppet monsters? Did that ladies head just spin around. I don't know how I feel about this. What's up with the character of Xander? All this stuff are great questions to ask yourself. Zander, we will continue to ask that question about.

But I think that basic idea. And so what I will say is that Buffy Vampire Slayer, I am roughly the same age as Buffy and Summers. And so their journey through high school, my journey through high school, and their journey into young adulthood, married my journey into young adulthood. And this idea that you touched upon that your small problems that feel massive to you as a teenager are actually world ending. There's a somewhat cheesy line in the pilot when Joyce is talking to Buffy and she's like, I know, I know.

If you don't get to go out, it's the end of the world. When you're 16, everything feels like the end of the world. It's on the nose. But it does. But it's what the show does so well. And so then later, yeah, when your online boyfriend turns out to be, you know, a demon that then gets inside of a robot body or whatever the case may be. If you're trying to go to prom. But, uh-oh, it's the end of the world, literally.

Right. Here we go. And then I think the idea of that, which is Joss Whedon's. twin ideas are, what if we take the blonde damsel in distress who wanders down an alley in any given movie and make her the scariest person in the room? Great idea. What if high school is hell is literalized? Great idea. Those smooch those two ideas together and that's how you get Buffy Vampire Slayer. It's worth noting that even to this day, if you go to the chosen one Wikipedia page, there's a list. A fine examples, a lot of characters we love to talk about, Frodo's there, Luke Skywalker's there, Paula Trades is there, Harry James Potter is there, Ang is there. There's only one woman listed still to this day, and it's Buffy and Summers, which is not to say there haven't been female chosen ones since, but they are still few and far between. It was so revolutionary

to have a young woman as a chosen one here. And, you know, Shout out to Sailor Moon, who existed before Buffy. And again, there are examples that exist. Shout out to, like, the old folklore of Moulon. But, like, Buffy was so strange and so new and so exciting to watch. And then in terms of, I remember, like, this is my introduction to going a level deeper on, this isn't just a story I like to watch. These are, like, this is like, I like to read what this creator says about. why I like to listen to the DVD commentary on every single episode. I like to start to learn the names of the various writers and what a David Greenwald or what a Jane Esposon or what a Marty Knoxon episode meet. What does that mean? It really was my school for understanding how to talk about television. It was my introduction to message boards. It was my introduction to just like that kind of fandom where when you meet another Buffy fan in the wild, you have this immediate connection and you can talk.

about it. I still remember my experience of like, you know, I have talked about this before in other podcasts, but I had like in season two, a girl who went to my school who was a year old and I was used to tape episodes of Buffy and bring them to, because I wasn't allowed to watch TV on a weeknight. She would tape episodes of Buffy, bring them to me, and then I would watch them and bring the tape back to her. And that's, like, I would watch it on the weekend and bring the tape back to her. And that was like, that was one way in which, you know, and then we would talk about the episodes. So that was like, that was one connection. Or when I got to college, none of my friends in college were Buffy fans.

I converted so many people into, you know, watching Buffy, you know, buying me box sets as gifts. Like it just became like a thing that we all like did together through my sheer mania about this one thing. This was my introduction to what it means to be like a capital F fan of something. It's my introduction to the idea. And I know it existed in Star Trek and stuff like that. But it is my introduction to the idea of like a fandom could be scholarship. Yeah. That there have been like, you know, and this is true of Harry Potter as well, but there have been like academic symposiums and like, you know, college courses and, you know, all the stuff around the lore, the language, the idea, the thoughts.

the feelings of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is all the more fun to know exists because of the deeply uncool name Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You have to say it every time. You can shorten it to Buffy, but that's still silly to say. And that's just like an added pleasure of like trying to take Buffy this seriously because you always have to say Buffy when you talk about it, which is really fun. On that idea of like it taught me about television, like I was saying before, there's so many innovations. I'm just going to mention some episode titles without spoiling what they are because, you know, but like there's episodes like hush in season four, once more with feeling, the body. I would say there's some stuff coming in season two and season three that plays with

form, the importance of the two-parter, all this sort of stuff, just really taught me what you can do to pull apart the idea of an hour of television and put it back together. together in a different shape. And so I don't, I'm not here without Buffy for sure. And in many different ways. And it's just a pleasure to get to share that with all of our listeners in with you. So that is what I want to say about what Buffy the Vampire Slayer means to me. I love it.

One thing, to take it off a, to take it out of this super serious plane into something a little lighter, when you and I were watching those season one episodes together, we start spitballing about some thoughts and feelings we had about the approach to slaying that goes on here. Giles has this incredibly intricate cabinet of weapons, but they're all yield weapons, which is fun in the context of this. It's just a further hilarity to watch blonde Buffy hoist an axe or a crossbow or something like that. But you and I both know plenty about why crossbows are inefficient weapons. We spent time in Westeros.

Yeah, we spent some time in Westeros. It takes too long to load. Mallory, Rubin, what were some of your innovative ideas that you came up with on how you, if you were the Slayer, the one girl in all the world? How would you fight the demons? So, thanks for asking. A couple things that I felt we very effectively brainstormed in real time and landed on a billion-dollar idea and should move forward with a business strategy. So a couple things.

One, in addition to just the limits of the stake, which we'll get to in a second, Also feel compelled to note that the fending off with the cross. Yeah. It just feels so easily dodgeable. It's just so many times. It's just narrowly directional. It's just, it's not. There's more than one vampire than anyone on a not direct pass.

So that's very limiting. And then that got us talking about the steak. And on the one hand, it's very appealing to just kind of live in a playpen of stakes. You know, we get the great moment earlier where Sanders finds the steak when Buffy chops it out of her bag and returns it and it's like, you know, asking for building a very little fence. Tidious fence. You know, whether you're snapping a chair leg or grab at a pull cue or teaming up to snap a table and see who might fall on that sharp. stakes exist all around us, and so that's nice. However, you need to grab it, you need to not have it tumble out of your hand,

and you need to hit the heart. All of these are challenging things. And so we started to pause it. What if you didn't have to do any of that? And in a little context, we had had the extreme pleasure of presenting a film at the American Cinema Tech Friends of the Fest. We presented Mad Max Fury Road. Did.

Had a great time. It was an incredible experience. As we walked, it was just fantastic. As we walked to the Los Felis 3, we walked through, it was a very hot day in Los Angeles, and we walked through a mister, like one of the misters, right, that diffuses a cooling in theory, refreshing mist of water. We should say this establishment had just a plethora of misters going. It was like a—

Misters everywhere, and people were eating under them. And so I was dispelped by this. Grange mist. in any of my orifices, any of them. Correct. Covering my eyes. But it was on my mind later when we were watching. And I thought, this holy water seems like a good way to get out of a pinch.

You know those umbrella hats? Yes. Okay. So we put the umbrella hat on the head. Yeah. And then these misters that they've got all over at Palm Springs, L.A., other hot melting cities, let's get some of that tech in microform on the umbrella hat. And then we're just walking, diffusing, misting holy water, and no one can fucking touch us without erupting in boils and having their flesh melt off.

Doesn't that seem better? So on the one hand, sure. Because we're safe. On the other hand, at the end of the season, when the master's like, you're dead and Buffy's like, yeah, but I'm still pretty. Do you feel like you could deliver that line with a straight face if you had an unbroken? brother hat on. Yes. Okay.

And here's why. Okay. She buffy, Summers, says that after. A little bite to the neck. Uh-huh. Falling face fucking forward into some bevalled cave water. Yeah. Receiving some restorative CPR from Zander and walking in a situation where anyone else would look like a drowned sewer rat.

and just could not possibly look more stunning, the slicked back hair. So my feeling is Buffy could pull off anything, including the umbrella holy water mister. So if you were the Slayer, you would just have this innate glow to you that even if you had an umbrella hat constantly misting holy water around you, you will be like, wow, I love that dress. Yeah, you could maybe also consider perhaps we could look at like it could be a, it could be a choker. It could be a necklace. I'm thinking of the 90s. It could be a choker.

I do think that we're getting the most coverage. It could be a bucket hat. Bucket hat, very 90s. Sure. Headband. Why not a headband? Another proposition we had to go with the Holy Water Mr. And in this case, we were drawing on inspiration from the underworld series of films.

In which they have bullets that are somehow infused, question mark, with UV. don't really understand it. I'm not a scientist, though. Not a bullet scientist. Add it to the list. But I think what is available to us, because UV lights exist, could we not craft a shield of some kind?

Yeah. You run into some of your directional issues that you have with the cross, but a massive shield would be much more effective than a mere cross. Shield of UV light. I love that. And you just sort of spin around

and you're just dusting, dusting and pritzing as you go. Not only is the shield offering protection. Yeah. Your guy, Luke, this fucking dip shit got got by a fake out beam of light. Yeah. I thought genuinely masterful moment of television I was riveted. And so it could also potentially have some sort of positive effect in that respect.

I think this is a good idea as well. And, you know, there's something obviously nice about. the kind of familiar warm bath in a vampire story of like, you have your steak, you have your holy water, you know, these are the ways that we're going to, we're going to expose exposure to the light, et cetera. Let's innovate a little on the how to defend yourself from and or kill a vampire front. That's all. We just have a few notes for the Buffy reboot for Kira. If you want to put on an umbrella hat. Consider the mister hat. Consider it. You let us know. Last night at least, sort of before we're going to get into some

episode breakdowns and some superlatives. We had a big question to ask. It's something that Carlos teased in his incredible audio gift that he made for us. And this is a mystery that will haunt us. Spoiler for the rest of the series. Oh, boy. What exactly is the bronze's vibe, demographic, menu, etc.? What's happening at the Braun? And all ages club. that does serve alcohol, but also coffee that seems to have dancing every night. And anyone who's anyone at Sunnydale High goes there. But I should note, adults definitely also go to the bronze. So what's happening here?

Is this just the most masterful business plan of all time that you have somehow hit? There's no aging out of the bronze. It hits every single demo. Interesting. Incredible lineup. Famous musicians come and play the bronze. Some good live music. What's happening here at the bronze?

Well, Joe, I don't know. I mean, I know you've seen the show. I'm familiar. I don't know if you know this. It's a one Starbucks town. It is. One Starbucks Town is one of my favorite lines. And I just need you to know.

Canonically, sorry, I'm going to spoil this one thing. I think it starts. Is there more than one Starbucks? No, there's a coffee shop called the espresso pump, and that, like, becomes a key location. It's basically Sunnydale is, like, a movie theater, the espresso pump, the bronze, the high school. Okay. I'm actually glad to have this spoiler because I, while the bronze is obviously inextricable from the text of season one. Yeah.

And as I understand it beyond, I do find the idea, even in a one Starbucks town, of like one place that is the hang for everyone utterly baffling. Now, obviously, in some ways, this is a television staple. It's very, like, peach pit-coded. Yeah. I don't know that I might just be projecting my, like, Jonathan Byers loved to be at home reading Vonnegut energy here. But, like, the idea of everybody, no matter their social group going to one place, but particularly beyond that, the idea of everybody being this interested in dancing. Yeah. It's very difficult for me to wrap my mind around.

And the idea of that many high school students wanting to dance. But the thing that, as you know, I was struck by the most was the menu. I may have put my thumb on the scale of touch with Carlos' copy for the opening in that respect. Because when Owen offers to grab a little snack for Buffy and returns with a muffin, I have never been so astonished and befuddled in my life. This is a club where we see, there's a stretch where we see the bouncer outside. carding. Right.

But for what? But the children are in there. Yeah. Having brand muffins. Amazing thing that I can't totally wrap my mind around but also can't imagine the show without. Throughout the story of Buffy, a lot of red solo cup action at the bronze, we don't do glassware at the bronze.

Angel seems to like live right behind the bronze. Like a lot of questions about it. Oh, man. Every single Sunnydale High Function takes place at the bronze. That's another thing. Yeah. It's like it seems to like in. The spring sling is going to be there.

Cordelia is going to be crowned May Queen there. Like it's just all happening at the bronze. Wild. It's like not as strange as it should be when Giles is there draped over Buffy. Oh, that's my number one note. Don't stand so close to me. Giles. I mean, do if you're Mallory.

I would love Giles to stand that. that close to me. Bronze. And enduring mystery. Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com, if you have further thoughts on the bronze,

the mystery that is the bronze. Did your high school town have a bronze? I mean, if they did, I did not know about it. There were coffee shops. We hung out in coffee shops, I feel like.

Yeah. And then kids went, you know, I grew up across the Golden Gate Bridge from the city, so people would go into the city and people go in the city with fake IDs and stuff like that.

But that's different from what the bronze proposes to offer. sunny deal. Well, this is two hours from the closest Neiman Marcus of memory serves. I mean, if I had a knit to pick about season one of Buffy, I have a few.

One that really stood out for me in I-Robot, E.Jane is how we're getting around. Because Xander has a skateboard that we see in one episode and never again on the show. Cordelia has a car, and that is an important plot point.

Buffy doesn't have a car Willow doesn't have a car Jaileth does have a car When Boy does he When Buffy is stalking Dave And I wrote about you Jade To like a computer

A derelict computer company She sees him drive away In his car And then when he arrives She is also there And I'm like did Buffy get on The bus And say follow that car

How did Buffy follow Dave? I don't know Slayer Speed. Slayer Speed in a one Starbucks town, maybe she just ran really quickly after him. But that helps if everything is concentrated around a few blocks. Oh, man. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity.

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family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type two. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop zep bound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking zep bound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor.

Call 1-800-545-59-9 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Now we're going to do what we did in our Doctor Who episodes, which is we're just going to talk briefly about, in this case, three episodes that are sort of standouts before we get to our season-long superlatives. So we don't have time to go into every single episodes. We pick three episodes, sort of talk about a little bit in depth. So this is our favorites. The choice is pretty clear here. We're going to talk about the two-part premiere, Welcome to the Hellmouth and the Harvest. And then we're going to talk about Prophecy Girl, the finale.

Weird. I was told when you said it was pretty clear which episodes we were talking about as the standouts that we would be talking about, I-Robot, Eugene, and puppet show. The puppet show? Okay. Is that not the case? God, you know. I was a great time watching Iro about you, Jane. I think puppet show is actually deeply underrated.

Honestly, I really like that episode. Sorry. I do. Welcome to the Humma slash The Harvest, rated by Josh Sweden, directed by Charles Martin Smith and John Kretschmer, in which Buffy comes to Sunnydale meets Giles, Angel, Willow, and Zander for the first time. RIP, Jesse.

Yeah. We've got the cold open with Darla, who we will meet again in the episode of Angel. I think this is a perfect opening for this TV show. Because, of course, the Buffy Down an Alley interaction that she has with Angel is iconic. It's similar to something that happens in the Buffy movie, this idea of like the vulnerable blonde down the alley and she turns the tables. But the fact that they introduced that here with Darla as a vampire is just an incredible, even though Darla in the premiere is a completely different character than Darla and Angel. That's okay.

These are some learning curves we have. It's just we're in the high school. We've got a guy being horny. A lot of these episodes in season one are this teenager is horny. Usually as Sandra sometimes it's Buffy sometimes it's Willow. Listen. It happens to the best of us. And every episode that feature Giles, so every episode it was me.

Mallory. There you go. Oh, man. Yeah, that opening, just a tone setter. Like, we will be subverting your expectations right away. You think Darla's going to be the one in peril and no, she turns and she's the vampire. She's great. Immediately great.

You visually cannot see anything because it is very dark and not well lit, but it is as you squint. As you squint at the screen as to what's going on, it's incredible piece of storytelling. How does this work? Let's go through the character set and talk about how this works is an introduction to all of our key players that we will meet in Sunnydale. I rewatched earlier this morning. There was a 30-minute unaired pilot that they used as sort of a pitch deck of a kind. And you can watch on YouTube.

It exists. If you thought the aired episodes were dark, you know, good luck watching this on 30 minutes of unaired pilot. Someday we will get the Game of Thrones pilot that never was, Mallory. Someday they will release that footage. Dare to dream. The cast is all the same except for Willow. And Stephen Tubalowski plays the principal, which would have been great. The Willow is, I'm sure she's a lovely young woman.

absolutely incorrect. And it was absolutely correct for them to recast that role. But a lot of these it's only 30 minutes versus the two-hour actual premiere. So like Jesse isn't there. The master isn't there. There's a lot of other stuff that isn't there.

Is the bronze there? No bronze. The library looks different. But there is a dead guy in the locker. And Cordelia is here. But we are missing this really crucial moment. We get the introduction of Cordelia meeting Buffy and saying,

Game Recognized Game. I see you're a fashion girly. You're from L.A. The core test. There are many Starbucks. Like, we are going to be pals. A very there before the grace goes Buffy. This is who Buffy would be where she'd not made the Slayer.

And that becomes clear at the end of the season, the Penultimate episode. Yeah. But then that introduction goes in. to this Willow moment where Buffy, and this is not in the on-air pilot, and I think it's one of the best moments of the premiere, where Buffy watches Cordelia be cruel to Willow,

and then Buffy makes the decision to go up to Willow and make friends with Willow. So Buffy, we learned so much about Buffy in that moment where there's safety in being welcomed by a Cordelia into the popular clique, and Buffy turns around and does the unsafe thing, but the good and right thing, which is to connect with Willow,

who is, in fact, much cooler than Cordelia. So in terms of the Cordelia into the Willow introduction, what did you think of all of this? How did it work for you? Oh, I thought this was fantastic, just wonderful, and kind of instantly winning in all respects, but like obviously for Buffy most of all, because like how can you not feel tenderly toward, Willow and like want somebody to support Willow and choose Willow and make Willow feel welcome and included and not like she's not even just being actively bullied, but any version of that, like more passively left out or shunned, like the fact that Buffy chooses to risk her own social currency in order to not only like do something that feels moral, right, but to do the thing that feels right, right, right, because it's moral, right? because it's good, but also right because this is somebody that she is interested in spending time with and things could benefit from having the confidence boost of learning from her.

And it's just all wonderful right away. And, you know, this is like the thing that you can do in a story about young people that, like, it's not like you ever have to stop making choices like that, but that's when it's most keen in your life, right? where every decision you make feels like permanent in some way. And for Buffy to embrace that in full is like, just makes you love her, makes you love her right away. I was really interested to watch because I had never seen the movie either to watch the movie after.

How was your stories with the movie? Shocking. I watched it last night. Shocking is the only word I can think of. Downright astonishing. First of all, seeing Ben Affle for like 12 seconds on the basketball court was just a wide. and surreal experience, but... I think they dubbed him, too.

They overdubbed him with someone else's voice. You know, there's obviously the, like, when Buffy goes into the dark and spooky alley, the warning side that he follows as, like, period cramps and the aspect of all of it, and I was like, what is happening? Just as astonishing. But because I watched season one first,

a couple times and then watch the movie. And obviously it's different. It doesn't even necessarily bear mention, bear mentioning. But like this opening note in episode one, where right away we see that Buffy is compassionate, is I think such a more effective starting note than like where we are in the movie,

where Buffy is part of the cool click and is a dickhead, and then still goes on a journey and is a character on an arc, and that's interesting in a different way. But this is just like a not a cheat, but like an earned shortcut to endearing us to this character and their friendship and them as a duo. And then like what it does also to establish Cordelia as one of my favorite figures in a story, it was like somebody who is doing things that I find actively repellent, but I love to watch. Like such an incredibly entertaining character. And then obviously like, you know, toward the end of the season, which obviously we're talking about the beginning. when that starts to soften, it's a compelling thing.

I love that. It's funny, I was thinking a lot about stranger things. I was thinking about Nancy and Steve and Jonathan. That's like a love triangle, but like, you know, Nancy is like protective of Jonathan, you know, even though she's in the safety of dating Steve Harrington is like sort of a similar moment, I think, for that establishing that character. That's sort of like save the cat moment, save the Willow moment. I love that you watch the movie, which I told you I thought you should. To be clear, Josh Whedon hates that movie.

He wrote it and then lost control of his own script. And this is sort of like a redemption for the story that he wanted to tell. And the way that he tells it is that he considers this show a sequel to the script that he wrote, not necessarily the movie that was shot. So when we talk about Buffy burning down, high school that's like in the original script etc she doesn't she doesn't talk about merrick her watcher that was in that movie you know like they're it is connected and disconnected at the same time um zander harris yeah boy oh boy uh a character i loved in 1997 and a character

that is a tough watch in 2025 um joss whedon says this is his avatar inside of the story and you're like You can definitely tell. Yeah. And this is an archetype that was, like, very popular in the late 90s into the early 2000s. And I just thought he was so fun and funny. And now I watch it and I get deeply aggravated. And there are moments, I will say, in season one and throughout the show where, like, especially when you get to the finale and Willow sort of rebuffing Xander or so like that. There are moments where the show is, like, aware of Xander's bad.

behavior. Yep. But I do hear from a lot of people watching Buffy the first time, am I supposed to like this guy? Yeah. And yes and no. You know, your mileage may vary, absolutely. But he's established immediately here from the jump as, you know, as soon as he runs

his skateboard into a railing, he's drooling after Buffy. And this will be true for the entire season. And that is the least. interesting thing about Xander. And thankfully, it's not the only thing we will ever have to deal with when we deal with Zander, but it is his season one plot, essentially. Or barring for when he's horny for his teacher or, you know, horny and a bully in the pack or like, whatever it is, you know, it's a tough season for Zander Harris.

At least he, while under the hyena curse, did not eat the... Flutty. He was in a jail cell and so he could not. So that's something. Yeah, Zander feels, one of our categories today will be like the most 1997 thing about season one. And Zander feels very much like a product of his time. Like he makes complete sense to me as a high school boy in a 90s TV show. Absolutely. You know, and like obviously like we're, we're of the age where we, that, that, is a recognizable thing. I can see how maybe younger people watching it

for the first time now would be like, what is this? I think that obviously there are plenty of things that Xander says and does that make you groan

or like grab your face. But in a way where it's like because you care about him and he's like a member of this group that you care about where like you kind of want him to behave do better. Better?

Yeah. So like it comes from a position of like obviously not actively disliking him, but almost despairing that he's so retrograde in certain respects. You know, he's certainly on the writer avatar front, his dialogue is so quippy and so fast and witty

in a way that like you can feel the the fun that we didn't have in crafting him and then writing him and also it has a little bit of the like does anybody talk that way actually in real life quality to it but when you're watching it it's like yeah he just he feels like

he's kind of inextricable to me just 12 episodes in from like the rhythm of the language and speed like cadence of the show he feels like he sets the pitch clock kind of and I I think that Xander, while again, he says and thinks and does some things that I wish he would not say anything can do, has a good heart, has a good heart, you know, and cares about his friends and is loyal and is brave and also sometimes very foolish.

And to your point, like that moment where, as an example, where the show is aware of that and kind of calls him out on it when Willow is like, you know, do I, you think I want to go with you to this dance and watch you wish that you were with her? And he's like, I didn't think. Yeah. I didn't think. And, like, I think that it's obviously a very different context again in the episode. But I loved the moment where Zander is a part of the pack, a part of that spell. But that great moment where Giles is like, it's devastating. He's a 16-year-old boy.

And it's like, yeah, sometimes 16-year-old boys are assholes and d' shit. So that doesn't make it okay. Naturally, you'll have to kill him. Like, yeah. Naturally, I have to kill him. Oh, Zander. I can see how in real time basically everybody watching it would have been in love with him, though. I cannot apologize for my 1997 self.

I've just grown and learned since then, and I know more now. Giles. So, you know, having watched the film, you got to watch Donald Sutherland show up as this watcher. And then this idea that Buffy is an unusual slayer and that she's, was not like trained, she's trained later than other Slayers would be trained. Merrick, the character that he plays in the movie, is like a seasoned watcher. And something that Joss Whedon has talked about in terms of the auditions that he fielded for Giles is that most of the other actors who came into read for Giles read as this sort

of like musty, fusty exposition machine sort of character. And what Anthony Stewart Head brings is this sort of uncertainty, this like, Gile. And I have some notes for the watcher counsel why you would send an uncertain, I mean, Giles is the best and perfect and we love him. But he is an uncertain, untested watcher. Why you would send that person to watch the one girl in all the world and not like your most seasoned person is a question I have. But I have so many questions for them.

But Giles being sort of uncertain in his role at the same time as Buffy is uncertain in her role or actively rejecting her role, you know, he becomes this father figure. The relationship between Buffy and Giles and Willow and Giles and Zander and Giles is the beating heart of the show. Research boy. It is so important. Buffy and Giles is so important to me, to the world, to everyone. But, like, I just think that it was clever to sort of also put them on the same foot inside of this. And that was partially casting and then writing to the casting as you go forward. So I'm a, I know you're a huge Giles fan.

I'm a huge Giles fan. I love this, the way that they introduce him here. And the cleverness to have him infiltrate the faculty. So he has a reason to be at the school in that. in that beautiful library set that has mysterious backstacks that you never see. You know, week in, week out is just really smart storytelling. I'm inclined to say I have no notes. Horny for Giles.

Cey-Rubin, canonically horny for Giles. Pure perfection. I guess my one note would be, as I've shared with you. And as it is addressed in the text a couple times. not as frequently as it should be, that it just would be weird. And I say this is someone who was very close to a number of my teachers and really valued and loved the relationship

with some of the teachers who shaped my life. This is through spending a lot of time with the librarian and I did love it. There's so many lies about that, though. Yeah, I got to get out of every time. I took a few episodes for people to start mentioning, but then finally with Joyce is like, hey, teachers are really caring about their work.

I was like, thank you. You kids sure do love the library. Yeah, it's great when they start to, to acknowledge it felt important. I love Giles. Like he

I love them all. Giles is definitely my favorite through season one. I would like to fuck this man. That is part of it. I just think he's so sexy and like obviously he spends his time in a library reading books and doing research and I,

that's just really, that's the, that is the stuff Lionel. I need, I need people to know that when we were watching, I think we watched like six episodes. Seven, yes. We did seven together. Yeah. Of season one together.

You're not a huge, like, let me pause, at least not when we were watching. Probably when you're taking notes you are, but like you're not like a huge pause. The way that you paused and rewound and paused and rewound this one section where Giles is taking his glasses on and off. It's just very powerful. And you're just sort of like on, off. It's just so, it's hypnotic. Yeah. I love how often he takes his glasses off and puts them on.

I just really love it. I love the whole vibe. And obviously, the main thing, the main feature is what you already said. I just think that their relationship is so beautiful. And like, the overall dynamic between all of them is like incredibly potent right away and effective right away. I think that Giles and Buffy in particular inside of that to the point you made about like where he is in his. expertise level. It's just, I love what that unlocks kind of for like their power dynamic. We're like, you know, sometimes, on the one hand, it's like obviously like archetypal classic heroes,

hero's journey stuff. Like where are you going to find your wizard along the road who's going to help you and teach you and learn? But like obviously sometimes something intentionally often that we as readers or viewers can bump against is when the guide, the mentor always thinks they know. better, right? You can't leave Degaba. Here's why. Like, and again, we like the hero in that case are meant to sort of question that and resist it. But the fact that Giles, like sometimes he does that, but it's pretty rare. Like they're on a shared journey of learning and discovery, and that makes Buffy, she's learning and she wants to learn and she seeks his counsel and values his wisdom, but she is a driver of her own fate. Like it just puts them more as like co-pipy.

Yes. You know, like she never feels like she's in a sidecar on like his motorbike. And that feels like really crucial and important in this story and like a huge ingredient to it. I think it's success and why it works so well. And as Willow and Zander, too, like, grow inside of their roles. And I think that I was struck by this rewatching puppet show once again, an underrated episode of season one where Buffy is like so certain yeah uh you know that this is that this is a demon you know and and and yeah it's is back and

forth of like buffy isn't always right giles isn't always right sometimes willow is right sometimes zander is right like buffy has her slayer sense like this is a thing that exists and and and so it can be frustrating when they like aren't paying attention to her and you're like but she's the slayer but she's sometimes wrong and that's crucial so then you can always have this back and forth in this discussion. It's something I meant to say in terms of that sort of, we're all sort of learning and growing together. I want to, I want to zip back. I forgot to mention this. When you were talking about Xander and you were talking about the patter of his language. Yeah. One of my favorite things that I learned listening to,

the audio commentary about a season three episode, is they were, there's no spoilers for this episode, but they're, you know, it's a library scene. The kids are all there. And, you know, Joss was, Jocene was going through someone else's script. And he's like, he's like, this is a, this is a Xander line. And you gave it to Willow. And they were like, yeah, well, Willow didn't have enough lines in the scene. So we thought, like, maybe she should say it instead of Zander. And he was like, you can't just, a Xander line is not a Willow line. And you can't just, you know, exchange them. And like, they all talk in this heightened, you know, Dawson's Creek. will become famous for this later, et cetera.

They all talk in this heightened. Nobody really talks this way kind of way, but they do have distinct voices. Oh, yeah, definitely. And, yeah, so this idea that, like, a writer was like, oh, I can just give a Xanderlide a Willow and Jostling. No, unthinkable, yeah. You can't do that. Oh, I love, that's a great anecdote.

And, like, yeah, obviously, Giles is a crucial part of that, too. Like, the way, some of it's the British accent and the fact that he's older and has a different history. But, like, he brings his flair and his flail. to the conversations and to the dynamics. And, like, yeah, the fact that, like, they can all be so assured and then also can kind of be, like, when the moment is right, like, abashed is, it avoids anybody ever routinely feeling, like, an insufferable, no at all, you know?

It's like they're all on a journey of discovery together, and they have things to teach each other, and they can all feel inadequate, and they can all feel like they're right. And it's really fun to see what, like, the context of a given moment or plot point bring that out in each of them. And yeah, I'm just, I'm really interested to see how that, that, like, what feels consistent or, like, it changes over time with that? Because obviously, like, that's a part of, you know, young life is, like, hitting moments where you're like, actually, no, I do know better than you now, or I don't feel like I know anything at all. I don't even know how to make a single decision in my life. And, like, what feels constant there,

or what feels like it's changing? I'm really curious to see. Speaking of Inseparable, no at all's, uh, no. Giles is, like, comes to us fully. formed. This is who Giles is. And, you know, perfect. Perfect. The best performance of the season. You know, all of this is great. Then we get David Borianas.

And I am not an angel hater, necessarily. I don't feel that way about him. But we talked about this when we were watching these episodes together. Yeah. David and David Borianus talked about this. He was plucked off the street. I believe he was walking a dog and was

discovered and then cast into this and he had no idea what the fuck he was doing. And he had never done professional acting like this before. Sarah Michelle Geller had done soap operas for years. Like, you know, she was like a seasoned professional. He was just trying to pretend like he belonged there. Angel is written very differently in the first couple episodes. It's not until like a midseason that they coalesce on what his personality will be. And Dave Borian, as you could tell, is just really trying to like run to catch up with what he's asked to do. And in the pilot, it's like being kind of smirky and quippy, which is not who Angel will be for most of his time here on this planet.

And so... And with, as you noted, when we were watching together, just an astonishingly robust collar. Very large collar. The biggest collar. This is a ringer reference, but real, like, normal collar, find a new slant, Calangelo stuff there. Especially in an episode where Buffy is identifying vampires by how outdated their clothing is. The massive collar on Angel is interesting.

He's got the velvet jacket on. Which I like. Which is great, but does not make it out of season one. This is a season one note. He's got some extra eyeliner on that he will not have on for the most part in later seasons. So all of that is very – it's very interesting to meet Angel here and how they had just not quite figured it out yet. Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know. Yeah. I would say, like, Angel – other than Buffy herself. I felt like I had a... Giles was kind of new to me. Zander pretty new for me. Willow I had a...

I kind of felt like, okay, Willow is going to be for me. I felt like I knew that. But I didn't have a lot of a very specific sense beyond that. So I would say other than Buffy herself, the two characters who I felt, without having seen a second of the television show before,

that I had the best feel for and knew the most about, were Angel and Spike. Because of, again, just, like, absorb it. Inescapable, right? Being a, like, I was, so, and I should say, actually, this is, because maybe some people are like, well, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I don't understand why I hadn't watched Buffy.

Yeah. You're watching Jack and Jill and not Buffy. Dude, I fucking loved Jack and Jill. I loved Jack and Jill. Obviously, Felicity, the formative text of the time, and Dawson's Creek is noted. I watched a lot of Seventh Heaven. I was watching a lot of WB. I was 11 when the show started.

So I just was, I was too scared. It seemed too scary for me. I don't know why. I guess maybe it was just the era where it felt like, how would I catch up on this? Whereas like if it had been a few years later, I feel like I would have just been like, give me that box set. I don't know. But yeah, in real time, I was, I think, just a little, I felt like it would be a little too scary for me.

So I didn't watch it when it started. And then I don't know what took me so long, other than the fact that the universe kept me waiting for you. I love that you were watching Felicity at like 13. Not only was I watching Felicity in real time from day one. I was watching it with my mom. That's great. I'm sure explains a lot. I want to mention Jesse.

Eric Balfour here with us briefly in this two-parter playing Jesse. His death here, because I've seen some critiques of this first episode saying there's something really that special of Buffy just has to fight a couple of vampires and there's something really like that twisty or special about it. I think Jesse is what is special about this. this because he's introduced, Eric Balfour is introduced in the opening credits with an and at the end of the opening credits. So if you're like media literate, you know, hey, that guy's important.

And that was the best that Whedon could get away with because what he really wanted to do was put Eric Balfour in the opening credits. He really wanted to fool everyone into thinking that this was going to be a gang of four, that it was going to be Jesse and Zander and Willow and Buffy. And that's who it was going to be and then kill him and then have him be an antagonist. in the second episode. That is such a Whedon move. And budgetarily, he could not make that happen.

So the best he could do is and Eric Balfour in the opening credits. But Jesse dying and then playing that he's still Jesse and then revealing that he is a vampire. And then getting to play a demon that wears the face of your friend, that is such an important. Buffy idea. And it is done that merciless, weed and I will kill anyone I want to, in order to twist the knife

on the plot and on your main characters to make them feel the most anguish. That is one of his favorite moves. And again, this was, you know, before spoilers to the MCU, he kills Colson before spoilers for Firefly.

He kills, I'm not, I can't even say it if people haven't watched Firefly. A main character and a a beloved character in that show. You know, like, before he starts doing all of that, its origin is here with Jesse. So it's a key seed that is planted and will flower across many, many different shows and films going forward. I thought this was dynamite.

I did not know that this was going to happen with Jesse. I did have the, oh, I didn't realize, like, because I feel like, again, like the Scooby Gang is something I understood, existed and knew about it. I'm like, I'm really like, Jesse. This guy's face isn't really like pop it into my mind there. But still, the speed with which that happened was astonishing to me. And I say that as someone who's like weaned on Game of Thrones.

I mean, we're in the era where we're programmed to expect the unexpected. And I was still astonished by that for all the reasons you just said. And like, I think it's brilliant and like not only because it is shocking and bold, but it's interesting to hear you say that some people are like, okay, well. is the two-part kickoff event kind of at that tier. I think what it does to establish not only like the high school story element of it entwined with the supernatural, but then the like emotional stakes is very effective, very tidily, very early. And the idea that people this young will have to make choices will be confronted with choices that grave is such a heavy thing to have to face.

Now, because this is Buffy and this sort of like tonal alchemy is part of the magic of it, you can pair something that horrific and severe Xander, like being asked by his best friend if basically he has the courage to kill him with the comedy of a person running a patron trying to flee the bronze and like knocking Jesse into the steak, which, spoiler alert is going to be my pick for a category later because I thought it was just absolutely incredible. So yeah, that's like I was really, I was not expecting Jesse to be out of our lives that quickly in that fashion, but it told me a lot about what to expect for the rest of the show. Joyce is also here. We've got some notes for Joyce. We've mentioned, you know, some of the stuff.

She says, this is not our most impressive Joyce debut, also a different haircut than she will have for the rest of the series and stuff like that. but Joyce is here. And your boyfriend, Luke, Luke is here? Am I going to Luke? I love Luke. You fucking love Luke. I love Luke. And then Buffy herself. I mean, you know, we've talked about all of these people are orbiting Buffy.

And Sarah Michelle Geller, again, who has her background in soap opera acting, and is like really fun and funny. and then when asked, especially when we will get to the finale, to dial up the melodrama emotion, she knows how to do that so well. She's fantastic. She looks great. She, you know, the fight scenes will get better as the series goes on, but never great, I will say.

And I just, I'm just a heat. Like, no one does it like Sarah. She's just wonderful. And I think she gets weirdly kind of overlooked because your Giles and your Willows and some of these other big characters that are coming, your Spikes, your Anyas, your all these other characters are like sort of flashier in their way. But like none of this works unless you have Sarah doing such a good job with Buffy. And she's just phenomenal casting, really, really good. Especially like, you know, you watched actually with no love and respect because Chrissy Swanson sucks as a person. But, like, you watch Chrissy Swans to do this in the movie.

And so there's, like, that version of it. And it's just not, doesn't have the goods the way that Sarah does, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Listen, cruel intention is one of the formative texts of my young life. Right. Right. American Pie as well.

It's really shaping, like, middle school male. And then coming to this, which obviously was before both of those things. It's been interesting. She's fantastic. She's just exceptional. She has to, yeah, hit so many different notes and really immediately make you believe in that many different relationships. She's very hard to do. She's fantastic.

She's great. I think that's a very normal thing, too, like what you were saying about how the, quote, quote, sidekicks, like, get more. Like, you know, you're going to meet way more people who say, like, my favorite is serious or Lupin or Ron. know, then Harry, etc, etc. Like, I feel like that is fairly common. But, yeah, she's dynamite. The character and the performance. Just incredible.

Great. Absolutely. Incredible parade of mini dresses and the knee-high boots in this season as well. Unbelievable wardrobe. Look, the season one staple look. The darker hair. She gets blonder and her wardrobe changes in future seasons. But this is the iconic, the bangs, all of it.

Okay. Prophecy Girl. Yeah. I have so many picks coming from it. I don't know what, I couldn't help it. I love that. So many of my categories are from this episode. I just thought it was so good.

It really, really changes the tenor of the entire show, I think. Written and directed by Just Whedon, this is Weiden directing for the first time, barring that on-air pilot experiment that I talked about. So this is like, this is a huge moment for like someone who will become a quite important, impactful director in, in the world of pop culture. as a result, I would say, there is a maturation and deepening of the emotionality as a result of Weedon's direction. Not just the writing, but the direction as well. And then it just looks better. Everything is barring the giant puppet, which I actually kind of love the tentacles and the mouths of the hell mouth. I kind of love a puppet.

Yeah, you do love a puppet. I do love a puppet. When I was taking my notes, I was like, God, this is so bad. And I was like, actually, if this was CGI, it would be way worse. I love a puppet. I scratched it out. But it's well lit. This episode's very well lit.

And I think moments like Cordelia and Willow stumbling upon, I don't understand the group of men who are gathered here in the, are these supposed to be AV Club guys. I don't understand who all these guys are. They look like they're the swim team or something like that. But they're just like slaughtered in the AV club. room and you get that lingering shot of the three little pigs with the blood spatter on it. And that's just like a step up from anything that we've experienced so far in this show. So just like visually in some of the choices that are made, this is a step up. But emotionally, this is the episode, of course, where it is prophesied that Buffy will die.

And she does, but not for long. RIP to the Master and party on kids. Good old fruit punch mouth. Good old fruit punch mouth. What do you want to say about this episode? So I'll save many of my thoughts for the categories where I know I will return to them. But I will co-assign everything you said. I thought that the emotional depth was very impactful in the episode.

And like it is a great, great, great hero's journey episode. The master saying to Buffy, prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything. You're the one who sets me free. If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. Think about that. It could not possibly be more my shit. Like that's just.

But then also the other side of that loophole of, yeah, Buffy's going to die. But hey, there's CPR, you know? And I loved that so much, like a human thing. It had to be Xander. It couldn't be. Pulling her out of the supernatural demise. Like, just all of it is so great. The reluctance and then the embrace, like the fact that she has to confront this idea of fate and then gets to challenge it and has to be the one to decide.

Like I just said basically everything about this episode worked for me. I thought there was some great Willow stuff in this episode that I will be returning to in other categories. And just a sensational Buffy episode. Really fantastic. Good Giles episode, too. I was going to say, Giles and P. pieces, like, absolutely, like, Giles saying it towards the end, I'm going to go do it. She doesn't have to do it.

I'm going to do it. Beautiful. But before that, he is neat and tidy when he says that. Before that, throughout the episode, he is just in shambles. He just, like, rumbled and, you know, sleepless and just in anguish over what is happening to his slayer. Like, it is just hugely important how distressing this is for Giles. who in the nightmares episode,

not the best episode of Buffy, but an important one in terms of everyone's nightmares are coming true, then we go to a cemetery, there's the headstone that says Buffy Summers, and, you know, Willow and Zander, like, oh, is this Buffy's nightmare? Or whose nightmare is this? And Giles says, it's mine.

Yes. My nightmare is I fail my slayer. And something that I think is explained in the movie, but I will just say in case it is and is like, the Slayers die young. They are called young and then they die. They do not last very long. And so this idea that like Giles knows that the likelihood

that Buffy will die under his watch, you know, within a couple of years, that's historically been true. The fact that it's mere months is just feels like the utmost failure to him. And he's not supposed to be this emotionally connected to his Slayer. Right. It's a job. It's a mission. Yeah.

And so that aspect, his like, I've gotten too close. I care too much for my Slayer is here. And then there's also this series-long idea that Buffy's superpower is her friendships. And so the twin power of Willow's devastation being the thing that pushes Buffy's into action, you know, they made it their world and they had fun. That, you know, that moment of Buffy's like, all right, I'm going to do it. Paired with, it has to be Xander who saves her. Zander for all of his flaws throughout this season.

It's Zander who goes to get Angel despite, you know, his resentment and jealousies of angel and his shitty behavior when he's rejected inside of this episode. And it's, it's Xander who has breath in his body who can help her when Angel can't. And that all of that is the core for important superpower of Buffy Empire Slayer. Multiple things that you just said. I will be picking in the categories because I thought it was all amazing. I'll come back to the Willow moment in a category and I will come back to the idea of the Slayers dying young from Buffer. feast perspective in a category. On the Giles front, I will say, to like the one of these larger

kind of umbrella ideas that we've, we've talked about and had. It's like kind of like, what does watching this for the first time help me understand about you? What you were just saying about Giles is so far to me, like I think one of the two or three main things. Because, you know, a thing I know about you and that you've talked about on the pod is, like, for example, your favorite Star Wars quote or one of your favorite Star Wars quotes is the greatest teacher failure is. Right. So like this, how central that is in this episode, this beautiful episode, but just the show more broadly. Like the idea that heroism and failure are not in conflict with each other, they're in extricable from each other.

And that could facing that and feeling smaller unsure in the face of it and then surrounding having people in your life who help you forward and through it anyway. Or finding the courage in the face of that fear to do the thing that you don't want to do that you were standing there if you're. coffee and saying, I don't want to do this. I quit. Yeah. I'm out. And then confronting the fact that you have to do it anyway, not because somebody told you, but because you decided you had to. Other people need you. For Giles to feel like, okay, my job is to prepare this person and I couldn't do it. She doesn't know how and neither do I. Yeah. Like, how are we going to save the world if we can't even figure out what to do in this room right now, right? And then in that, that final, again, I'm spoiling all my picks here, but like in the final battle, the fact that, like, the steak that claims the master is a table that the other people broke.

Yeah. You know, it's like everybody plays their part, even in the physical choreography and dance and entanglement of that battle. Like, the master taunts Buffy, like, including that puppet. Including the puppet. And including Cordelia. Yeah. And my great love, Jenny. They're all there and they all had to be there, right? Because that's the only way to make it through.

So, yeah, I just thought that, like, in terms of taking us to those lowest lows emotionally in terms of the confidence that's necessary, it's an episode where our heroes win, but it's an episode where they're constantly grappling with the fact that they might not. And that's why it's great. For her to know that she's going to die and she does it anyway is very important. I also love the moment. We've got this fucking annoyeded one. I can't.

I hate that kid. Her favorite character in season one, right? The fact that there's this whole like, you shall not know him, he will trick you sort of thing. And then for her to just be like, oh, that's, yeah. That's great. It's a great moment. As you mentioned, Cordelia and Jenny sort of like more meaningfully get folded into the core group inside of this episode. I'll be returning to Jenny.

I know you will. And then this is the end of the master's season-long arc. Yes. Right? Like he is bones now. I do have some questions. I mean, no spoilers, but I am like, he's a skeleton, not a pile of dust. What does it mean?

It's a great question. I'll put a pin in that one. But I marked it, I'll say. It's good to note. Mark Metcalf as the master. I think this is a good place to talk about. Unless you have him in another, like, category. But, like, I just love him.

This is an absurd. The big bads in future seasons get much more sophisticated. So this is just, like, the campiest most, like, it's just a really old vampire who is trapped and wants to get out and has long fingernails and just, like, a sense of drama. You know? There's this move he does in nightmares. he's, like, in the cemetery with her. And he just, like, flings his, like, nails out before he grabs her throat. It's an incredible vampire move.

Very theatrical, the master. I think especially one of the highlights of the film of the movie is Ricker Hauer. I think Ricker Howe is really good in the Buffy. And Paul Rubin is also really good in the Buffy Vampire Slayer movie. Oh, my God. So why. Protracted death scene is one of the, like, two young me, the funny. thing I'd ever seen.

Yeah. So that's like, those are, those are big shoes to fill. But I just think the master is just incredibly fun and campy. And like, again, the big bats will get much more sophisticated. He's not in my top three, but he might be number four. Like, honestly, like he's kind of up there for me. So, interesting. Maybe five.

Maybe number five. Well, we'll think about this more as we go on. And then once again, as I mentioned, this could be a series finale if it needed to be. Yes. Like, that's how they wrote it. It could have been one season and done. Anything else you want to say about this episode specifically before we get into you talking about it a lot in your categories for our superlatives? I'll save it for the superlatives.

All right. Let's go now to our superlatives. All right. So we've picked just a few clips today. We've restrained ourselves. I could have clipped every single category, but we did not do that. We're going to start with favorite line. Molly Rubin, this is, I'm going to start with you because you've got a clip for this one.

I do. Carlos, can we hear it? Thank you, thank you, thank you. And look, I won't go far, okay? If the apocalypse comes, beat me. This is the best line in the history of television. Undeniable. As far as I'm concerned.

I was like, should I pick something less obvious than this? I do have many. Actually, I limited myself to just a handful of. of runners-up that I'll save for after you share your winner. This to me, this is from episode five, never kill a boy on the first date. And, you know, Buffy wants to go out with Owen rather than pursuing the Anointed One prophecy.

Child is imploring her. And we're treated to that absolute masterclass in writing and in delivering a line. And not only is that like just such a great time capsule, because it's a beat me is just such a 1997 thing to say. It felt to me like, okay, now I... I had to explain to a 27-year-olds. What a beeper is.

Incredible. That's how you... Doctors had them and drug dealers had them. That's how you know the time has passed. Man, that makes me feel fucking old. But like, I'm early in my journey, but already that felt to me five episodes in, like, pitch perfect buffy, right? And also just like kind of an encapsulation of the brew of the show.

It's like, it's witty. It's charming. it entwines, okay, the stakes of and the burden of the battle of Good versus Hevenil and thwarting the dark with like, I'd want to try, at least try, at least try to just like go on a date and live a normal life. Just perfection. Love it. I think I told you this when you texted me about that line, that it used to be Buffy was in syndication on FX for several years,

and they had these ad campaigns that were like, exorcise daily, like watch Buffy Vampire Slayer. And if the Apocalypse Comes Beat Me, was definitely like part, like always in those. There's another one from season two that I will highly want to get to season two that was in all of like the ads and stuff like that. But it's of the same tenor. I have a similar thing. I think that it tries to put together two parts that make the hole that is Buffy, which is from the scene, not her first interaction with Giles, but her second interaction with Giles after she has examined somehow examined the dead body found in the

locker in the premiere. And he's asking her, you know, if she knows what it takes to make a vampire. And this is Lord Dump for the audience, but it has like just a pitch perfect buffyism inside of it, right? So it's like to make a vampire, to make you a vampire, they have to suck your blood and then you have to suck their blood. It's like this whole big sucking thing. Mostly they're just going to kill you. So it's like this whole big sucking thing. And inside of this like clear cut info dump of these are the rules of vampires in our universe. Yeah. It was kind of impossible for me to pick a favorite line. I put down and erased so many different options and went for funny ones or more emotional ones or all this sort of stuff like that. And then I was just like, this one is just kind of,

It's come so early, and it's just so perfect for who Buffy is and how Giles doesn't know how to handle that as an answer and all of this. Great pick. I really love. Yeah. This is the category where I have the most, like, honorable mentions. But I do try to, I think, like, again, the writing is so good as every episode has a dozen candidates for this. Here are a few others that I considered picking. Episode two, The Master.

We were marked upon this in real time together, snuggle up. up with each other and Halo on the couch. Tonight I shall walk the earth and the stars themselves will hide. It's just a bar. We love that one. We love that one. Episode four, I get a real kick out of Xander saying, funny how the earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to.

Too true. Episode five, this is one of my favorite Giles lines. I have volumes of lore, of prophecies, of predictions, but I don't have an instruction manual. we feel our way as we go along. I just think that's beautiful and also feels very much like part of the mission statement of the early show,

which is great. I already mentioned the next one, which is it's devastating. He's starting to do a 16-year-old boy. That's from episode six. And then a few candidates from the finale. While I co-assigned what you already said,

that Zander's response to being rejected by Buffy when he finally asked her out is bad. I think right before that, right before that, when they're still in it, when they're having the conversation, I do love the way he says, you either feel a thing or you don't. That really took me back to like being in that place when you're like, I like this person. I don't know if they like me. What do I do about this?

And like, you either feel a thing or you don't. Just like, put me out of my misery, you know? I love that. There's like some, I think beauty and the simplicity of that line. Already have mentioned Buffy saying to the master, you have fruit punch mouth, which like, One of the things I texted you some... The thing I texted you the most while watching season one was that I wanted to fuck Giles. Let's just be honest about it.

And that's just a true thing. The thing I probably texted you next most often was about wanting to put... Because I love... You love Chapsidoo. As anyone who watches the pod on video knows, I love to apply Chapstick. I'm addicted to it. I can't help it. I kept texting about how I...

Just let me put some lip balm on the master, please. And so the euphoria and glee... glee, I felt when Bobby finally looking at him right up close and you have fruit punchmouth, I just thought it was great. And then, hey, you know, right toward the end, we saved the world. I say we party. Yeah. Iconic. Great. Great stuff. For Punchmouth is. It's remarkable. Core buffyism. All right. Best villain of the week. What a field it is. This one's easy for me. Tell me. One of my absolute Faves. Carlis, we play this clip, please.

Guess what, precious? You're not one of them. Are you? No. I'm not exactly one of you either. Is that what you tell yourself these days? You're not exactly living off a Kish. The great Julie Benz, we've already mentioned her as Darlah and the premiere, but then she

comes back for the episode, Angel, and the Kish line got a big laugh from the two of us on the couch. We love that moment. Darla, I don't think this is, there are flashbacks on this show. Darla says that she is Angel's sire. This is not the last we will see of Darla. Darla is a character that I love. Good. I'm relieved.

Yeah. But this is her like season one. She is the villain of the week. She's like an, she's unrecognizable in the pilot as this sort of like cowering underling. And as this like gleeful schoolgirl outfit. pulls this whole gamut on Joyce about like how she and Willow are tandem tutoring. The way she like pops up behind Joyce and the window with her vamp face on. That was the one like actual like I jump scare like scared me.

Adam was laughing at me. But I got so. And just like the way she talks to Angel, what she unlocks in our understanding of who Angel is. And the way that she and Buffy just sort of snipe at each other is just like just pure joy. I love her. So it's fantastic. Great pick. I picked her for another category, which you can probably guess which one it is.

She's an icon. But she's like walking strutton toward the bronze in the harvest. Yes, really good. Also, I should say, she's so ahead of her time in the like calling out the immortal guy into teenage girl trope, which has become, like, such a conversation piece and, like, romanticie and stuff like that. And she's just like, this is really sad, dude. You're 240 years old and she's 16.

That's gross. Oh, man. I need to know what Darla thinks of rescind and Farah. You know, I need her takes. I think she has some notes. I think she has some notes. I would love her in the book club. All right.

Who is your villain of the week? Okay. So I take the prompt a touch. much more literally and I was like I got a pick someone who's just in one episode. Sure. Yes. That's fair. But I did pick Darla in another category.

So it's great. But I had a tie. I guess I couldn't decide. So you could help me decide. Okay. Here are my two candidates. Yeah. Again, from a crowded field of bat shit.

Single episode villains. Yeah. And I say that as a compliment. Okay. Candidate 1. from season one episode three, which Catherine the great, Amy's mom, sets the expectation in some way for the flow of the season where we're going to meet people on like an episode by episode basis. As we discussed in real time watching this together, cauldrons, cats, an herb-laden attic. Oh, yeah.

We were like, we would move into this attic. What's not to love, beautiful home? Beautiful home. Some real like dark academia needs cottage core. energy. Oh yeah, exactly. The psychological warfare of this episode of what's going on

between Catherine and Amy and then also obviously the other members of the cheer squad and of Sunnydale, the entwinement of the high school rhythms, trying out for the cheerling team. Am I good enough? Do I even want this in the first place versus what somebody else wants with the supernatural?

Like one of those great examples of that. I thought this was like a very effective twist in the episode of like just what was actually happening. And then absolutely harrowing conclusion when we see the eyes in the statue. Just disturbing. But like so this is, yeah, I thought this was actually like, for a character I don't know if I need to think about again necessarily, Catherine the Great. It left an impression in terms of the mental and like emotional trauma of.

of what was unfolding in that episode. Slight tonal shift here for my next pick. No, also plenty of trauma. I simply must nominate as a contender, the she mantis. Okay. I thought you were going to do. I was a friend from teacher's pet. Is she going to say the hyena guy?

No. Mr. Zookeeper did not make the cut from me in any category. I'm sorry to say. RIP Dr. Gregory, you know, what a... I mourned with Buffy. Shout out to Blaine. Yeah, we love Blaine. Our favorite secret virgin.

We really love Blaine. I have some questions about Buffy Tenderly putting Dr. Gregory's glasses in the pocket of his jacket. Like, what are the glasses still doing there? What is the jacket still doing there? What is the cleanup crew, you know, approach to all of the crime scenes at Idaho? Well, they missed a giant cluster. They sure did. Everyone did. Everyone can do a better job with the cleanup. But the She Mantis. She Mantis, listen, do we have another category coming on that is specifically devoted to being

horny? Of course we do. As a house of our episode, what did you guys expect? Come on. Yeah. Yes. Stay tuned. However, here I will share the way that it has changed my life when Giles said, yes, yes, she's lovely. Well, in a common extremely well proportionate ways. Forever. changed by that moment, incredible. When she invites Sander over, everything that's happening is very fucked up in this episode. She invites Sander over. It's time to make some paper mache eggs. This is why I left the materials, you know, come to my home.

Here's a martini. Okay. Have you ever been with a woman before? And Zander replying, you mean like in the same room? Killed me. It did. And just again, with the like larger through line there of the C. of some sort of like adolescent aspect bearing this supernatural fruit.

The monster is your sub. The thing that draws you into her crosshairs is like your virginity. I mean, this is kind of like actually, even though it's a very goofy episode, like very connected to that core interests of the show. So astonishing stuff, the she mantis, but felt like she deserved a nomination here in Best Villain of the Week. Between those two. Yeah, you'd pick the Shee Mantis.

I go She Mantis. Let's do it. Yeah. I would say my runner-up if I were more adhering more strictly to my own prompt. You're going back to Puppet show? No. Mollock? If it were Sid, I would.

But Sid's not the antagonist. I, there's something about the gap ad bully of the pack that just like really does something for me. I just really, the dodgeball scene, like, all of that is just incredibly good. Dodgeball is fucking harrowing. Stomping on the hot dogs, harrowing. I just can't. I can't award them because they ate Herbert, so I just can't. And also a person.

I mean, also flutty, but like that's, but I honestly bothers me less. Sorry. Great shit, though, that they're like, yeah, the principal got eaten by wild dogs. You mentioned the twist of the witch, and it's a great point. This is why I think I have this weird affection for puppet show because there's like nine twists inside of this. You know, you're like hiding our villain in plain sight as the magician. You've got like our Morgan with his like brain injury that we were like worried means he's actually like a demon or the puppet is a demon. You know, and then he thinks buffies the demon.

You know, it's just like there's like it's twists and turns in a dumb premise that I really, and that's chef's kiss, both of Vampire's Layer. Going off the dome, but I believe the line is... SIDS on the level, I'm sure of it. It's genuinely incredible. Really good stuff. All right. Best fit. There are so many...

This is hard. This is hard. I'm just going to go very basic bitch. Okay. And say there are two most iconic Buffy looks. One is... a red sleeveless shirt with red leather pants. Oh, a black sleeveless shirt with red leather pants.

That's, like, the most iconic Buffy look. Okay. Prom dress under black leather jacket is with the angel crucifix on and the curls and stuff like that. That is number two, most iconic Buffy look. So it's very basic of me because there's so many mini dresses I could pick or so many sweaters I could pick, et cetera, et cetera. But I got to give it to the prom dress. The dress, a big hit with, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a big hit with everyone. Like, that's what I have to pick. So, yeah. I love it. Great pick. I am going with, we already talked about this in real time. I am going with from season one episode two of The Harvest, Luke's impossibly tiny T-shirt. It's so small.

When he bows so that the master can name him the vet. vessel and he removes his jacket. And his shirt looks like he stepped out of Greece into this episode of television. It could not be smaller and tighter. It is so memorable. And I picked that because my runners-up are all more broadly like fashion and like choices and kind of like signature styles. So they didn't necessarily feel eligible, though I would like to quickly remark upon

them. I just want to say, I think Zan. is genuinely recognizable to me as a 90s boy in terms of how he dresses. I think the beat-up khakis, the like sunbumb button down, the backpack, you know, that's just like, yeah, everyone I knew dressed like that. Yeah. So I do like that. That just felt really right. I've already talked about, but I will do it again.

Giles's glasses. Cardigans and placards. Yeah. very powerful. Also, like, all of his different, this isn't a fit, but it's part of his, it's an accessory, the way he uses it, all of the different mugs that he uses for tea. Wonderful stuff. He will settle on a mug. It will become iconic, but for right now, it's a parade of mugs. I already know, without knowing what it is, that I will need to secure it, that I will need my own, my own version of it. What if somebody already got it, that's a question

you have to ask yourself. Also, you're the best. All of it, like, I know, I always think about this In the episode, Angel, when he goes to visit Joyce, and Joyce remarks like, oh, they really do care. And he's got this, like, incredible silk scarf over his, like, usual librarian get-up. He has a different incredible silk scarf when they go to visit the kiddo in the hospital in nightmares. And I was like, is this just his hospital going? He's like, well, I'm going to a hospital. I must add the silk scarf over my usual three-piece suit look. You know, out of respect.

He knows what he's doing and it's working. Fantastic stuff. Obviously, I wore the overalls today, so I'll shout out Willow's overalls, which I think are great. And when Angel switches from the velvet to the leather jacket and then, of course, gives it to Buffy. It's memorable. Very important. Great fashion. Great fashion overall.

I don't know how Buffy, I know she's from L.A., but I'm like, how does Buffy have this many outfits? I think, canonically, Hank Summers, guilt buys her whatever clothing and shoes she wants. So. I mean, my fellow child of divorce, Buffy Summers, you know. That's the other reason why Giles is so important, of course, as we learn in nightmares, like Buffy has a lot of daddy issues going on with Hank. I felt some vibes between Giles and Joyce when he's at the hospital bed. Not as many vibes as I felt between Giles and somebody else, which we'll get to.

But I feel like some vibes. Interesting. Okay. Favorite episode other than the pilot or the finale. I thought this was pretty easy. I picked Angel, episode seven. Yeah. It kind of felt like it had.

had to be, right? This is also just not only very good, but very important. Yes. Very good. This was probably my second favorite episode of the season, I think, after the finale. I felt coming to this as late as I did, I'm sure this is also true for people watching it in real time. Like, you could just, I imagine you could just feel that something had clicked into place about the thing that you were consuming. But, like, certainly it felt like that to me. I'm like, okay, I'm clock in real time watching this for the first time that I am witnessing something important. important for the character is important to the show, something that will shape and guide the direction of the arcs moving forward. It's obviously like very heavy episode.

You know, like as Giles will say later, you know, a vampire in love with the slayer. It's poetic. But this is the question of what life looks like if you're a vampire or if you're a slayer. What can you have? What can you allow yourself to have? What should you fear? What should you resist?

All of that is very compelling. I thought that the restored soul reveal was great. Like, you have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done and to care is just a deliciously rich idea to build a character around. And then Darla kind of pushing at that from the other side, right? Like, you can only suppress your real nature for so long. And then we hear about his real nature and learn about his real nature, like to hear the master say that, you know, he had never seen a more vicious vampire or to hear Angel say to Buffy, like for a whole thing. like for a hundred years, I offered an ugly death to everyone I met and I did it with a song in my heart. It's like chilling. So to glimpse that past, very tantalizing, I'm eager to learn more and see more.

But it's also in classic Buffy fashion, it's balanced. Like it's a very funny episode too, even though it's heavy and dark. Like the whole, the diary scene where she thinks she's, these are the diary that reveals everything in it. Like, add me in stitches. That's great. You mentioned the Kish line from Darla, iconic comedy. It's sexy the episode? Willow's like breathless reaction to everything. Zander's jealousies and resentment. Oh my God, Zander.

Yeah, there's like a forbidden quality to the sexiness of the episode. It's just really great. Rich and lore, this episode is great. I feel like you've neglected to mention that we meet the most important new character, which is Angel's Bachelor Pad behind or near the bronze somewhere. We were remarking upon the like Pure One imports quality of, the like the Japanese showji screen that he has in there.

The burgundy sheets are very important. Just every design choice that Angel made in, you know, his well-appointed apartment here. This episode's written by David Greenwald, who was an X-Files, a co-exec producer, and he would go on to executive produce Buffy and co-create Angel the spin-off. So this is like one of those names where

when you see David Greenwald attach to something like, there's an episode coming upcoming called ted which i would is a david greenwald episode which i would not say burnishes his legacy but this is like an important like david greenwald isn't a very important name uh in in the buffy verse also in addition to getting to know angels apartment uh uh the first of many deaths for the summer's home front window uh an important important, highly breakable object in this show. So, yeah. Angel. Also the iconic barbecue fork mentioned for the two-pronged wound in Joyce's neck. We don't have a barbecue fork. Very important, very important stuff. Okay. Fantastic. Best Cordeliaism. Talk about a hard category.

Do we have the same one? I'm going to say no simply because. there are 57 good candidates for this. They really are. So just like, I think the odds of us having picked the same one are low on that front alone, but it also wouldn't shock me if we had the same one. All right. You want to play your clip? Is that okay?

Yeah. Carlis, so you play my clip? What a disgusting display. Is that really appropriate behavior in a public forum? I mean, I've never seen a girl throw herself at a guy like that. Oh. Hello. Salty goodness.

Hello salty goodness. It's the best. It's really important. I thought you were going to pick this one, so I picked something else. Just because when we encountered this moment together. I feel like you and I both wrote it down, though, so that's why I was worried that you were going to pick it too. I felt like, okay, we have another. This is, I'm going to be curious to see if this pans out.

There's another category where I'm like, oh, the horny category, we have to have the same. We have to have the same one for that. Yeah. And so I'm like, this is one where I just feel like it's going to be the same thing, and I'd be surprised if it isn't. But this one, it felt like maybe we would end in a different spot. All right, Carlos, let's hear what I picked. I don't mean to interrupt your downward mobility. I just think that's fucking hysterical.

And it's 15 minutes into the first episode. So you're just like, who is this brilliant maniac? Like Cordelia finding Buffy with Willow and Zander and Jesse and saying that. is just, and then it's kind of paired with the, like, reveal about the body being discovered, and it's so apparent to us and to the other characters to see that Cordelia has no curiosity and no interest in learning anything about what happened. So that's just so, just so great. I did have a couple runners up, but it's a crowd of field.

In the runner runners up sense, I will say almost everything she says in out of my, out of sight is. These are all of my, I limited myself to that episode for my honorable mentions. Yeah. It's the best. All of her merchant of Venice thought. Like, what do you want to say? All of them, but specific.

This one is, I think, iconic. Specifically, people who think their problems are so huge. Cray's me. Like, this time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatizing event of my life. And she was trying to make it about her leg. Like, my pain meant nothing. So good.

Also saying, like, unbelievable. She calls Shilat, a Twinkie defense. Like, all of that stuff is so good. when she like, when in the finale, when she comes up to Willow and she's like, Willow, I like your outfit. And Willow's like, no, you don't. Yeah, it's just a really good moment. Okay. What else you want to say from out of mind, out of sight?

I also very memorable is while she's, you know, prepping to be crowned me, queen. I'm, of course having my dress specially made off the rack gives me eyes. Just a great, a bad person and a great character. This is incredible. Okay. Best guest star. And this is actually, I feel like we had the same one, and so then I got out of your way because I know how important this character is to you and I want you to have the space. So, oh, no. This is where I picked Darla, but I might not understand what the category is. No, I don't know. I mean, how many? Because Jenny Callender would have counted if you wanted to do Jenny Calendar. Okay. So Jenny is my runner-up, but I will be speaking about her in another category still.

Okay. And I think you know which one it is. I do. This is just where I picked my, my, Jenny's my runner-up. I think she's wonderful, but I knew we'd be celebrating her elsewhere.

So yeah, this is where I was just going to toast Darla, but you've already done so beautifully. I think that she's in limited time, magical. And I was counting and hoping on her showing up via flashback at some point, and I'm thrilled to know that that will be the case. Just great stuff.

Who did you pick? I picked. And I was actually really happy to do it after I was like, oh, I can't pick Jenny if Mallory's going to pick Jenny, but I guess we will both talk about it in another category. Arm and Shimmerman as Principal Snyder. Snyder shows up in two episodes, right? The aforementioned incredible puppet show. Yep. And then also out of mind out of sight.

Here are a couple Snyder quotes that I would like to share with you. comes in hot. My predecessor, Mr. Flutie, may have gone in for all of that touchy-feely-related nonsense, but he was eaten. You're in my world now, and Sunnydale has touched and felt for the last time. And as if that first mention of he was eaten was not enough,

then he follows it up with kids today need discipline. That's an unpopular word these days discipline. I know Principal Flutie would have said kids need understanding. Kids are human beings. That's the kind of woolly-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten. I don't mind telling you now that he will be

he's my pick for funniest moment Okay great Snyder is the best and then Dead of course not What are you ghoul? This is my pick. This is my pick. Okay, sorry, sorry.

It's so quick. We'll leave that aside. I will just say, Army Zimmerman who is probably most famous for playing a Ferengi on Star Trek, a great act, like great actor,

really funny with love and respect to Flutie. Snyder's is just a massive upgrade in terms of, like, his presence on the show. This is the last season we could possibly call him a guest star because he's more of a regular fixture going for. I'm kind of like cheating in my like Darla Snyderness, but I'll get my cheating in where I can and say, I want to toast him. Again, in the sense that you were talking about with Angel, it really coalesces something

in the show to have a figure like Snyder at the head of the high school going forward. What is this kind of energy bring to our secret identity slayer and everyone trying to help her going forward? So really great. Fantastic. I'm thrilled to hear that he's a very central force moving forward. It does, this is like another version of how it's like it is at the end of the day actually genuinely necessary for people at some point to start remarking upon how often the kids are with Giles. It's like kids are just dying all the time at Sunnydale. you know, and obviously Flutie is focused on the students,

doesn't want Buffy to leave campus, etc. But like the fact that Snyder comes in and it's just like, this is weird. I'm going to like end up on an FBI watch list or like a evening news program if I don't get my arms around this. I just think the very pleasant way he just keeps saying, my predecessor was eaten. That's what it's very funny. This is very funny.

Great pick. All right. So that is for that category. Next we have When Willow cries, We Cry. This is our celebration of Willow. You have a clip here. Why don't you kick us off Mallory Rubin? We'll see, all right, Carlos.

I knew those guys. I go to that room every day. And when I walked in there, it wasn't our world anymore. They made it there. And they had fun. So that is, of course, a moment that you've already referenced, Joe. That is from the finale, from Prophecy Girl. Buffy sitting with Willow after Willow has stumbled across this slaughter.

And so I had a really hard time picking between two Willow moments. I'll save my runner up in case it's your pick. And they both feel really important, but in different ways. And the reason I ultimately went with this one is, first of all, it's just like a beautiful scene and a beautiful moment in a harrowing episode and series of events. But I think, like, obviously there are a number of moments across the season where somebody is very shaken by something that has happened. Undeniably, that is true. However, I think it's also true that the kids handle the horror that is in front of them. Like, they almost have to be able to

handle it like it's routine, even though it isn't. And so it's important to them. be pulled out of that every so often and see it break them. I wonder Jesse's like, where was this energy for me? Your friend when I died. But I like the idea that it's like cumulative. That like Willow has been sort of taking a lot of this on the chin all season and then this is just the thing that just like broke her. Yeah.

It's like I can talk myself into like, okay, it's a hell mouth. Okay, you're the slayer. Okay, we're going to help. Like, okay, there are vampires and demons. But like a place that I went every day to like be a person and be a kid and be a student. was just shattered. Like the idea that that could be a safe space, the idea that people could go there

and just live their lives. And I think like the way that that shakes Willow and like breaks her just, it feels really necessary inside of the story. And then also it's like, it's not just the kind of like deepening of story stakes, but then just the emotional resonance of how deeply we feel for her at that point.

And then the way that it's operating in concert with Buffy's decision, as you noted earlier, you know, like what will happen. Okay, I'm saying I quit. I'm saying I'm done, but like, what will happen if I don't go? What will happen if I don't go face the master to really see that in the face of a person she loves and cares about and feel so deeply for? It was just really great. You mentioned this idea of like Buffy's, you know, tenderness towards Willow in their very first meeting as like a cheat code.

And I do think, I wrote down when Willow cries, we cry. because that is something I say about Buffy a lot. And genuinely, Alison Hannigan has, like, I'd do this for, like, Claire Daines, too. Like, there are, like, certain actors where when they cry, I genuinely get choked up. Yeah. And every time Willow cries, I will get choked up. So my, that was my runner-up that it is in our world anymore. Actually, my number one comes from the pack when-

This is my runner-up. Yeah, when Xander is- These were the two contenders. When Zander is cruel to her in Willow- cries and it's just like devastating because you know there's the season long arc of zander's in love with buffy and then the season long arc of willow is in love with zander and so like that is something again that she has been taking on the chin she has been like oh here for him just drooling over buffy not only not actually not oblivious to willows crush on him but like aware of her crush on him

yeah and then just sort of like you know in his non-packed state taking him for granted and Buffy calls that out. She's like, yeah, you liked me, the bell of the ball. Like, you weren't interested in Willow, but you liked her being interested in you. Yes. And the very important IRO about you, Jade episode. But, yeah, so the fact that Zander, like,

Zander, like, eats a pig, tries to sexually assault Buffy, like does all of this awful stuff inside of this episode. But most importantly, he makes Willow cry, and that just absolutely devastates me. So, yeah, that's a... These two are basically a tie for me. Like, I think maybe the...

I also think maybe the reason I picked the other one instead of this is because I feel like this is, I've been talking about this a lot on our stranger things pod, this idea, but I'm like, let me shake it off a little bit, but it is, like, it's so... You know, those dynamics in a friend group, like, man, it just kind of... It hits. And, like, I think the fact that Xander is under this spell, you know, we know that that and eventually Willow and Buffy will know that. But even so, you're like, well, do you think this about me?

It's enhancing things that are actually there. Right. It's like super soldier serum, right? Like, you know, okay, I won't be doing your help with math anymore, which means I won't have to look at your pasty face again and then like the cruel laughter. And, you know, when Buffy is saying to Willow, something's wrong with him. And that moment, and then Willow says, like, or maybe there's something wrong with me. It's just shattering.

It's just absolutely shattering. It's devastating. Like the way that this show is able to take those insecurities that are so relatable and such a core part of, you know, those formative years in your life, but really any part of just being a person of being alive, right? Navigating the world. What do other people think of me? How do I feel about myself? And then, like, having somebody you really care about give that form. And then for the show to give it form in a supernatural way, like the hyena curse.

It was really very, very, very, very, very sad. Something I really like thinking about, you know, like the willow we meet in the pilot, Alison Hannigan was cast pretty late. That role was recast pretty late. And I really think they did change that role over the course of this. She's great in the pilot. But like, there is this, like, there's this steel in her spine that isn't quite there in the pilot that comes up later. What I love about Ira about Eugene is how she's out actually before

like the full reveal. Like she's like, you looked at Buffy's permanent record. The spell is broken for me. Caught you slip in. You know, it takes Xander being locked up in a, you know, Zander, when he gets duped to these sort of things, takes it all the way to the end. Willow's like, I figured this out a little early. Or Willow standing out to Xander at the end of the episode. Or Willow making Starkey remarks at Cordelia later in the season, which she will do, you know, is like important. She is the soft-spoken, wears overalls, nerdy, is in the computer lab girl. But like she has this medal to her, which is very important.

So love her. She's the best. Best fight scene. Here's where we're going to return to my favorite tiny. shirted Hulkane dude and say Luke versus Buffy in the crypt, he's just so big and just

throws her everywhere into every single hard corner stone surface that exists inside of that crypt is just, and it's such close quarters. And again, he is just a very large person and just really highlights

how small Buffy is. And again, we were talking about this and we were watching the episodes. They don't really fully have a grasp of her power set in this season. How strong is Buffy? What can she kick down? What can't

she? What can't she? What can't she? There's a moment in the pilot, which I vocalize this to you, when she and Zander are crawling out of the grate. And she's being pulled down by one dinky little vampire. And I was like, uh-uh. That's the slayer. I don't think so. But Buffy versus

Luke in the crypt. And then, of course, there will be like the reprise and the bronze. But yeah, that's That's my pick. That's a great one. I already talked about all this, but I have the kind of finale, the showdown with the master and prophecy girl. For all the reasons we already talked about,

just I think the fact that everybody has something to do in that stretch and the way that those threads all stitched together is really effective. And the puppet, the puppet most of all, the fruit punch mouth line, genuinely most of all. But just like what a, it's not, the fact that it's not, you know, the most effective, like, action scenes for us are always going to be ones that are deeply connected to thematic text. And the fact that this is like Buffy's terror and resistance and refusal morphing into an embrace and heading down in her dress for the high school dance to meet her foe and challenge her face or challenge her fate. It was just kind of like incredible. And, you know, everything we already talked about was.

like the prophecy and we always love when characters either misinterpret or actively then explain to another character that they have misinterpreted. Like all, you know, all of it is just really great. And the fact that, like you said, Zander's human breath and like just the act of a human thing that you learn when you're like going to be a lifeguard or get a babysit. CPR, like that's what brings her back. Like it's just such a genius decision and touch. You know, in the humor, like, oh, good, the feeble banter portion of the plate.

Just fantastic. It's great. A category that I didn't put in this season, but I am going to put in the future is, like, best quip, best, like, post serves like quip and stuff like that because that's, of course, key. How could you possibly pick? I know. Oh, my God. And then, yeah, just killing the master on the shard that other people provided by snapping the table is just great. insert shot, like the table breaks and you just get like a shot of the like,

a lingering. Yeah, that's great. Who is going to get impaled and dusted on this? Well, there's only one real. Very good. Very good. And even just like, you know, sure, it's the hellmoth, but also the fact that the library, like this seat of knowledge being the key location, really just a good touch.

So yeah, that's my pick. As I've told you, my pals, Jenny and Chris, a new host, the buffering cast. the Buffy Empire Slayer podcast, host a Buffy prom. Yes. And every other year they hosted at Torrance High School, which is the location for, so like, you know, those iconic stairs that Harmony gets pushed down or like the fountain. Like that's all part of like where it's like really cool to be in the location and the front entrance. Like, you know, it says Torrance High. It says Sunnydale High, but it's like all the same.

the back parking lot where Jenny and Cordelia are running for, like, I have parked my car there, like, all of that is incredibly cool. When I watched Cordelia, Chris McArvner, drive her, this time, after having been there, drive her car into the hallway, I was like, I mean, probably a set, but I'm just like, how'd they do that? I mean, I understand filmmaking and sets and stuff like that, but I was like, that was like, That looks a lot like the high school. Did they put a car into that high school and then rebuild it?

No, surely not. But the library set gets just like completely torn apart. Yes. And a puppet emerges. Okay. Here is where our stars must actually, they have to align on this one. This is horniest moment. I don't think there is a possible second answer for this.

I'd be astonished if we didn't have. We both picked a clip for this. I will be astonished if it's not the same. So, Carlos, why don't you play what is probably both of our clips, but we'll see. Well, you really are an old-fashioned boy, aren't you? Well, I don't dangle a corkscrew from my ear. That's not where I dangle it. Oh, my gosh.

It's so good. That's also my pick, yeah. Of course. How can it not be? When will these two fuck? Don't actually tell me, but like... I know they will. I don't actually know I haven't had this for me, but, like, the...

Chemistry between the two of them is. Pappable. Helpable. Jenny, the aforementioned Jenny and Kristen have had many long, long debates about where Jenny Callender dangle is it. So is it, okay. Yeah. There are two main culprits here. Okay.

Is it from the clit? Is that where this comes from? or is it some sort of metal nipple tassel? Yeah. Nipple would be, my guess. Here's the main problem. Yep. For either of those.

How did that wind up somewhere else? These are all great questions. How did it fall off if it were affixed to one of those places? Now, maybe she had it like in her bag so she could dangle it there later. Oh, my God. But also, like, the nipple makes more sense to me than the other one in terms of, like, what you would want to dangle from where. Anyway, it's a, it's a long debated question inside of the fandom. The show certainly never answers it for you.

But Hobson Dragons at gmail.com, if you know where Jetty Calendar dangles it, we would like to know. Here's what I love about this. I mean, everything, obviously. The way that we linger on Giles after she says. this and walks away. Powerful. Meaningful. Memorable. Obviously, what it leads us to speculate on and wonder is you just took us through. But there's also, like, even though she is saying, that's not where I dangle it. And the look is like a, you know, it's flirty, right? It's an invitation for him to wonder, for him to think. There's also a little bit of a, like, you know, she gives him a little bit of

the once over two. And it's like, well, where would you dangle it? You know? So then we're also thinking about his dick, which is great. It's just a very, very good television scene. The vibes between Giles and our favorite techno-pagan, Jenny Callender, are off the charts from the word go. Oh, yeah. The second that they are sharing scenes together is electric. Screwball comedy, like, argue, bicker banter energy from them. Yes. And like relishing the bickering.

When she's like, we were arguing, but okay. Yes, we'll have to do it again sometime. Electric stuff. I do want to also note heightening the horniness, heightening the sexiness is what immediately precedes the dangling. quote that we both, of course, picked, which is, I think you can make the case

the single hornyest thing that has ever happened on TV, which is Giles talking about why he loves books. Oh, this is, she is, Jenny's like, they've had this whole, you know, books versus tech, he finds tech repellents, the internet repellent. I wonder what Giles would make a TikTok. And so she is pushing him. And, like, you know, why do computers bother you so much? And he says the smell, and she says,

computers don't smell Rupert. And he says, I know. Smell is the most powerful trigger to memory there is. A certain flower or a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences long forgotten. Books smell musty end and rich. The knowledge gained from a computer is, is it has no texture, no context. It's there and then it's gone. If it's to last, then the getting of knowledge should be tangible. It should be smelly. And he's so wistful and so full of like love, but also lust and longing as he's saying this. I need these two to fuck on a pile of books and anything they want can dangle from anywhere. I just need it to happen. I can't wait. I feel sure it will. You texted both Rob and me about Jenny Callender. Me both.

Yeah. Responded in the affirmative that we also. love Jenny Callender. All right. Most 1997 thing. How do we pick? Jeez. This is tough. Boy.

I mean... I'm sorry. I'm just looking at my list and I realized I wrote, if the Apocalypse comes beat me twice on my list. That's how it was. Well, that's a great pick, obviously. Beat me. We texted about this last night.

I didn't want to reveal to you that this was actually my pick when you texted me to ask this to be your pick. But genuinely, I think all of the, it's interesting, actually, because like, so everything in I robot, Eugen, about computers and about the internet. Like, it says the printed page is obsolete information isn't bound up anymore. It's an entity. The only reality is virtual. If you're not jacked in, you're not alive. Incredible 1997 energy.

I do think that the episode has an interesting quality to it right now, though, which is like it simultaneously feels extremely dated because computers and the internet are so not. So relevant. And hyper, hyper relevant. The demon in your computer who is leading, like, this could just be people like. It was just like, there's so much about like talking about misinformation. And like, yeah, I was, when I was watch it, I was really start. Kind of heroin. Yeah.

It feels new again. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I have some questions about their scanning tech, but I think it's called the Scanomatic or something like that. Oh, man. Yeah. But, yeah.

So everything in. I wrote about you, Jane. Fritz especially. I'm jacked it. I'm jacked in. I love how Jenny's like things for making us all sound so normal. I will say Angels Daycore, which I've already talked about. There's a reference to a Yonnie CD, which feels very in 1997 to me. And then also in Prophecy Girl, when Buffy's like, you know, I don't want to die, blah, blah, then she goes and like wistfully looks through a photo album, just like leaves through a photo album. We don't leave through photo albums anymore, but we should. We should.

Now we just have our fucking camera rolls. Yeah. Did you scrapbook? No, no. But I did have, I have a couple photo albums that I put together before it all became obsolete. Digital. Okay, this was one I was going to ask you if this is 97 or not. Wiggins?

That's just Buffy. That's just Buffyism. So it feels, this is an interesting one. This is part of my, I've come to the slate. It feels to me. of the time because people would say it, but I didn't know it was from Buffy. Yeah.

So I associated it with the time. The wigging out, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com, I'm incorrect on that. The thing that I know is Buffy is putting AGE at the end of, like so slage, stuff like that, like AGE at the end of something is a Buffyism. And then putting Uber in front of something is a Buffyism as well.

Oh, I used to do that a lot. I know. I know. Wow. Shaped my life in ways I didn't even know. But I think, and there's a high wig rate in season one. Tons. It was really, it was really bumping for me.

Give me the wig. Yeah, I was like, this just sounds very like of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Not 2025. Yeah. Good stuff. All right.

Cringiest low budget moment. We love you season one. We have some notes. What do you want to go in? Um, I didn't actually pick this, but this, I, this is where I will mention that, as I think I mentioned on another pot already, Adam, like, went on an absolute, like, aspect ratio. Yeah.

He was insisting that way, and this is now what is on Hulu, but I guess wasn't at some point. They had put the, like, quote, unquote, updated version on the streamers, and it was terrible, and you could see, like, you referenced the boom mics and all these things you weren't supposed to see in the shots. And he was, like, so offended by it as many people were, as I've learned. And that was, I just want to remember so that's not how I watched it. I watched it dark, grainy, crimey, as intended. Okay. Yeah.

You already mentioned one, which is in the first episode, Welcome to the Hellmouth, the way that the master rides from. Yeah. The boiling pool has Luke as has been chanting. It's so funny. That's fantastic. Like, once again. Mark McCaff has to come back from that one of the goofiest entrances anyone has ever had. It's incredible.

I think he does well. So that's probably my pick. There are certainly other contenders, but it's hard to unseat that one. What are you going with? Are you going with Puppet show? Praying Mantis' head spin. Yeah. That's my next.

That's my runner-up. Yeah. Also just the kind of like waved. This is where I had the Hellmouth puppet and then I crossed it out. Because you don't think it's a cringe. You think it's great. You think it's art. yearning tendrils.

Yeah, you love it. The way the first little like tentacle comes out, it's so funny. You know what it looks like to me? Remember when we were, I guess people still do this, I'm just no longer invited to Halloween parties. Sad, maybe someone will invite me this year after they mail me my Orioles.

All right. You won't go, though. You're right. I got to say, I haven't invited to Halloween parties before I did not go. I do would like to be invited, but I will not attend. I know. But I would like to be asked, but I will not go.

The cakes or cupcakes that looked like graveyards, you know, like the Oreo crumbles, and then they would have the gummy worms that would like pop out of him. That's what the hell about. Yeah. Your inkendril's looked like to me a little bit. I'm glad I took five minutes. I thought that really felt worth it. I'm hungry.

It's lunchtime. On the she mantis front, the head turn impeccable nomination, I just think also basically everything about the way the She Mantis moves in the deeply disturbing mating sequence in the lair. What I don't know. When her hand morphs into. Oh, we should also say. Oh, yes. And Sanders, like, very serrated.

That's great. That's a great one. The hand morphing. But also we should say. Oh, man. That's great. Every single time the VAM space activates. The VAM paste and the dusting, you know, they get better.

They get a lot better with the vamp face. you know, special effect. Okay. I've been wondering. Yeah. They get, like, quite a bit better. But, like, the best is when it's like their head is turned and then they turn their head and they're snarling and it's there.

But sometimes they make you watch the morphing happen and you're like, oh, no. And then the dust, of course, as well. But I love the vampire dusting, which is not universal in all vampire lore. But it's a very tidy way to deal with corpses, except when... A full skeleton is left behind. Big questions. Okay. I've noted it.

I've observed it with interest. Speaking of dusting, most creative dusting. This was easy for me. In terms of where I was going to target my pick, but in part because there are multiple creative dustings inside of a short stretch of story. So this is episode two, The Harvest. Yeah. Has to be. At the bronze.

Has to be. Where we get in very short order. We've already talked about all of these, I think. Jesse being pushed into a stig by a frantic bronze patron. playing the harvest while taunting Xander, who is holding the stake for being a coward, put me out of my misery, you don't have the guts. Just unbelievable. Immediately, basically, we get to enjoy Buffy flipping down to a pool table, grabbing and using a pool cue to kill a member of Luke's gang, and then casually saying to Luke right after doing that, the side, the use of the pool cue to the side, like that is just expert. Very slick.

Okay, vessel boy, you want. Here's not to say about that. The pool cue is my pick only because it breaks con- because what should have happened is the pool cue happens and the dust and that it should have fallen, but instead it falls out of frame. It's really funny, but it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's really funny to watch the pool queue

just fall out of frame with the body. And then, of course, go on. Your next one is also on my list. I had my jaw on the floor watching this. Buffy deceiving Luke into thinking that he is being burned by the sunrise and then staking him while saying it's nine hours, moron. It's really good. There's also in that sequence, there's the symbol toss for the beheading also. Yes, yes.

And we get the, this is not fatal, but Willow douse's Darla and Holy Water to save. Giles and I was thinking, what if everybody had been wearing umbrella misters? Life would be better. The Symbol toss is a great. Simple toss is a great one. Funniest moment. You already mentioned mine. Oh. You mentioned mine.

Which is Snyder. Snyder. Say the whole line again, because I kind of cut it off. So this is from Out of Mind, Out of Sight, or Marcy episode, episode 11, after Mitch has been attacked. So this is very early in the episode. And Principal Snyder has Mitches about him being. We held in. Dead?

Of course not dead? What are you, ghouls? There are no dead students here? This week. Really good. That's the best. It's the best. Just constant maimings and deaths at Sunnydale.

And Principal Snyder is aware of the reputation. Give a try. Keep track. My predecessor was eaten. Oh, God, flutie. I love with all of my heart and soul the puppet show post-credit sequence where Zander and Willow and Buffy are trying to do edifice

It's just really funny They're acting is so bad, their costumes are silly Willow flees the stage in the way that Buffy and Zander just quickly fill in the gap where Willow fled from is just really And there's, I think the only post-credit sequence like mid-credits sequence that happens on Buffy. There's like a logo thing later,

but that's like the only time they do that. Interesting. Also, an I-Robot, E.J. I think the first time we see it is an I-Robot, E.Jane, but we do see it later. Willow opens her locker, and inside of her locker is a photo of her and Giles, which is just...

Listen, Willow. Same. So, darling. I would have a photo of Giles in my locker. I would have a photo of Giles in my life. There's also, I should say, on her locker door is a poster for the band Nerf Herder, which is the opening theme. The incredible opening theme for Buffy. In The Prophecy Girl. Yeah.

When Buffy says, oh, look a bad guy and then just like kicks him, like trips him, essentially. That's a great one. I really like in the first episode. when in the locker room some of the other students are talking their shit and we hear what kind of name is Buffy

and then Oh hey, Aphrodisha. That was in the unair pilot as well. I like that. Aphrodisi survived the on air pilot. So good. I love that. I also really get a kick out of

in the second episode when they're trying to figure out where Jesse could be and I looked around but as soon as I got clear in the graveyard they could have just boom and Zander says

They can fly? They can drive. Oh. This is great. It's great. Abrupt tone change, most emotional moment. This is where I have a clip. It is my Emmy reel for Sarah Michelle Geller.

Carlos, will we play this, please? It's my pick, too. It's, yeah, it's that. And then, you know, I'm 16. I don't want to die, which comes pretty shortly thereafter. But, like, the force with which she's throwing these things. The scene is so good.

And then Giles is just utter defeat of, no, I don't suppose I am. This scene is so good. Angel is also there. Angel is also there. Dude, I was like really affected by watching this. I thought this was amazing. The whole, every, like you said,

everything in the sequence is powerful. When Buffy overhears them and realizes what is what is happening, what is going to happen to her. I thought that early note of, you were talking about this earlier, like how the Slayers die young, when she says,

I remember the drill, one Slayer dies, next one's called, I wonder who she is. Will you train her? Like, Buffy having to really confront. There's an awareness, like intellectually,

rationally, but really having to confront emotionally in the moment of like the reckoning, I'm the chosen one, but I'm also replaceable. I'm part of the cycle. Like, yeah. Chosen one for now.

It's just genius. And then we build toward, do you think it'll hurt? And I'm just really always a sucker for that. Like, Harry thinking that walking to the forest is like one of my favorite moments in the entire series. It just like shreds me. I'm making it simple. I quit.

I resign. I'm fired building toward the clip you, just played like, I think this idea of kind of resentment, because so much of being a chosen one is exciting and cool, right? And like the idea of really staring in the face the other side of it, like, what does it mean to have to make the sacrifice? What does it mean to shoulder the burden? Was it mean to find your strength in the love and devotion of your friends and then still be a little bit separate from them at the end is like such a crucial part of a text like this? And I thought it was beautifully examined in this scene and then this finale.

Obviously, the mortality and immortality aspect of the Buffy Angel relationship is a part of this scene, too, with like the you're never going to die. Like, what do you know about it? And then, yeah, just like, Giles, I'm 16 years old. I don't want to die. Like, this is a kid, a kid. And it's just fucking great. So that was, yeah, I thought some of these categories were really hard because there were so many contenders. And this was, I thought, one of the, this was the quick, like.

And there are a lot of emotional moments, but this one is a doozy. My follow-up would be inside of the same episode when Giles says, you know, I died. And then Giles says, I should have known that it wouldn't stop you. And then the look that they exchanged. Oh, God. Which is just, like, incredibly tender and loving and wonderful. All right. Anything else you want to say about season one about me the Vampire Slayer?

I'm just so thrilled to have begun my journey. Like, I can't wait to watch season two. For you to watch season two. As I've told you, episode three is I think when, like, season two really starts. So episode one is like not my, my, don't watch episode one and be like, what were you talking about, Joanna? And I will say, yes, we are out of the season one era, but not entirely, like, there are back-to-back episodes called Inca Bummy Girl and Reptile Boy. just, you know, that's just like also still in the mix, okay? So that's just like still both.

Okay, exciting. But I'm so excited for you to watch season two in season three, which I think are two perfect seasons of television, as I've mentioned to you. I have love and affection for four, five, and six and seven, but two and three are just like... For your favorites. Well, it's funny. Rob and I were just talking about this and we were talking about Veronica Mars on the Prestige TV podcast. It's like, it's really hard to do. take a high school set show out of high school and feel like you really have preserved the

DNA of it. So we've got two more seasons in high school and then we are trying to move on from there. So high school as hell is just such a potent premise. So I'm excited to explore that for two more seasons and maybe four more podcasts with you. Very exciting. Oh, my God. Please keep me in the loop when you... You'll be hearing from...

me. You'll be hearing from me. And I don't, I mean, like, smartly, you said we're not committing to an exact date, but I don't think it'll be long before we're back to talk more Buffy. I just don't want to like overpromised and under deliver, but it's going to be soon. Okay. Thank you to everyone here with us today and also listening at home. Thank you to our Juno Ranka Powell. I hope you feels better. Thank you to John Richter. Thank you to Carlos Juerboga, your incredible audio gift for us. Really delighted me for my heart. Also, thank you, Carlos, all your texts that you've sent me about your watch. It's been very special for me as well.

Thank you to Jomey a dinner on the social. And thank you to Mallory Rubin for wanting to watch this thing that is so important to me. Thanks to all the bad babies who are so excited that we were doing this. And we'll see you definitely next week for Alien Earth. And hopefully soon to talk about Spike. Oh my God. Can't wait. All right.

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