House of R - ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 2 Rewatch (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Mal and Jo continue their ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ rewatch with the second half of Season 2! They talk about their favorite episodes, the most dated moments, the funniest moments, the horniest moments, and more! (00:00) Intro (09:58) Opening snapshot (37:11) Our favorites (01:40:41) Superlatives Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs. storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. So, welcome back to Hasavar. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today wearing, if you're watching this on video,

an incredible ode to Giles shirt. It's Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how are you doing? Joanna, right now you couldn't go three rounds with the fruit fly. It's kind of true, actually. We've had a week. We've had a week. We've had a time.

We've had a week. week, we're here to talk to you. Yes. About the back half of season two of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Very little waiting. We did part one. Yeah. Thursday last week.

Yes. Yes. By the time the listeners are listening to this. And here's part two, right, on its heels. So no waiting. We're going to do for this part we did for part one of season two, which is that we're going to have a general chat about the season. We're going to highlight a couple episodes that we think are particularly

really noteworthy. Yes. And then we're going to get into our superlatives before we do all of that, though. Mm-hmm. Quick programming reminders. First of all, the Midnight Boys, Pugh-Pew, are checking in on Star Wars Visions. Can't wait. So that is something to look forward to.

And then we only have one podcast this week. That's right. Because we've got some things going on. But we'll be back. Family visits, travels, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We'll be back for Stranger Things. I know. Season four.

Part one. Volume one. Volume one. The countdown's coming. We're almost, it's almost time for new stranger things. When we're together again on Zoom, but to a podcast. Yeah. It's going to be November.

Wow. Think about that. October's been quite the month for us, I would say. October has been a whirlwind. So in order to keep track of all that, folks can, of course, follow the pod, follow us on the social media platform with their choosing. Email us, hopp us and dragons at gmail.com. A question that we've gotten a lot from the bad,

babies is one we actually already answered on one of our on our hype meter podcast. But if they didn't listen to that one and they're in their tuning in for Buffy, the Buffy fans are particularly invested in whether or not we will be covering interview with the vampire season two because it is now on Netflix. I'll say we have a plan in place to do that before the end of the year. We do. That is something that we plan to do. Mallory is going to watch interview with the vampire season two because it's now on Netflix. I'll be watching Avatar Fire and Ash equally great stories. A little holiday gift swap.

Yeah, a little swap. Cherish tradition. So that is the plan. You can stop asking. I mean, keep asking, but that is the answer. And then the Buffy rewatched plans are ongoing. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't wait to start season three. You could start so soon. I know. That's your husband Adam's favorite season. That's what he told me. Yeah, you two had a conversation about it that I tried to, like, not really listen to. He was, he had an answer ready when you asked about favorite character, etc. And I was like, I don't want to hear any of this.

Yeah. I don't know who these people are. But yeah, I know he's excited to get to season three. I can't wait. Carlos loved season three. Correct. Our producer Carlos loves season three. I'm being very cautious still as I go through comments on the pods because I don't want to

stumble upon any spoilers, but I will note that I've seen a lot of can't fucking wait for season three out there. There's an episode. People are very excited for you to see. It's true. Right. Amongst others. So cue the Sarah McLaughlin. Boy. If that's not our most 1998 thing, I don't know what is.

Oh, I've got some other contenders. No, I have some others too. But that's a great one. But the winter is cold and bitter because here we go. We're doing season two, episode 15, phases through season to episode 22 becoming part two. Yes. And all the things in between. That's right. That is the plan. We got a couple emails from the bad babies to get to first. Great. Our listener Victor wrote in to say, Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yeah.

The golden trios obviously map onto each other pretty easily, the chosen one, the brains, and the comedic everyman. But another connection I don't see discussed as often is how each group forms. In both stories, our chosen one first encounters a high-status rival who befriends them, Harry and Malfoy, Buffy and Cordelia. Their rejection of those characters helped define who they are and make us love them more for the friends they do choose. Any thoughts on that? Now I'm just thinking about an alternate history where as soon as Chamber of Secrets, Malfoy is in the gang instead of calling Hermione a mudblood. I love that.

Like, by year two. I have some fan fiction for you. I know you do where that happens. I know you do. Cordelia's season two like full immersion in the Scooby gang, one of the thrills of my life. Absolutely a joy. Incredible stuff. For the Cordelia section of our superlatives, I have a laundry list of things to say.

Great showing from her. And then our listener, Jacques, wrote in about a topic that I actually kind of want to move into our superlatives category. But basically talking about the way in which Buffy's secret identity and the way in which, you know, spoilers through becoming part two, she basically like comes out to her mom at the end of this season. And so the way in which so many people watching Buffy consider this to be an interesting metaphor for queerness. No question. And so that's something I want to talk about a little bit more in the, in the spoiler section. But Jack had a great email about that.

So anything else you want to get to before we get to our snapshot of season two? I thought that this season ruled. I mean, just obviously I already said that in our Part 1 pod. I don't know. Maybe there are some people out there who just went right to the Season 2 Part 2 pod. I guess it's possible. But they wanted to know what you thought of passion. Well, by the time they're listening to this, it's possible they've seen a 60-second

instant reaction on Instagram, you know, that the two of us did in our pajamas at like 11 p.m. on a Saturday when I watched it in real time. Mallory is like the Madonna sort of shrouded in her cozy blanket. I, however, I'm rocking some particularly spectacular, like, bedhead. Because Mallory texted me, she's like, I just watched it. I was like, well, I guess we're getting on camera. Let's make some content. Yeah.

I probably should have, like, pulled on a willow, like, bucket hat or something. No, as always, you were beauty and grace and a vision to behold. That's, like, my pain blanket. I was trying to think, when was the last time I had that just wrapped around me in a piece of content? There's definitely some, like, Syracuse and, like, the NCAA tournament, and then Last of Us. It's happened more than once. You know, I thought this whole season was a blast. Yeah.

The back stretch, while every episode in this eight-episode batch that we're going to talk about today is not an all-timer. You know, there are a couple that don't quite meet the mark. There's one that I think is actually my least favorite of the season. Oh, yeah. Same. Yeah. Same. There are some all-timers in this stretch, and we talked for a long time on the last pod about, you know, Innocence, my favorite episode of the series so far, granted, I'm only two seasons in, but I'm like,

will anything challenge it, can anything top it? And then you get to passion and you're like, well, oh boy. Do we hire and champion are ready? Here we go. You know, and the finale, incredible. Even the, the, the, I'll save the specifics for the categories when we get there, but even like the real goofy shit in the end here, kind of a joy. Yeah. So I just thought this episode was dynamite and really excited and eager to continue my journey from here. I don't, like, I know where things are going, but I don't know where things are going, right? So, like, I'm kind of like, I have awareness as a person in the world that, like, Angel is going to be back in this story, but, like, when? How soon in what way, et cetera? How long will Buffy be out of Sunnydale

doing her own thing? I expect, based on only through two seasons, something that I feel I understand, about the show, which is that we are going to pick up really rooted in the aftermath and lingering effects of a prior experience that she will not be back in that first episode. Like, I would be really surprised if Buffy's in Sunnydale at the start of next season, but like how long will that last? So I just love this season. Excited to dive into it today. I am a shattered wreck.

We've issued our spoiler warning, but we'll say it again. Spoiler warning. I was destroyed by Jenny's death, like, just shattered by it and watching. the impact that that had on the characters who I already love so deeply was like really intense. So I just thought there were some really wonderful episodes in a really wonderful season. And I can't wait to talk about it with you today. What a joy, what a blast. A lot more to say about passion.

We'll get to that. It's one of the two episodes, obviously, that we've chosen to highlight. It is my favorite episode of Buffet Vampire Slayer. Though it was funny, I was talking to front of the pod. Rob Mahoney, he listened to the first part and he had like, you know, some reactions. and I was asking him what his favorite episode was. And he said it's hard not to pick one of the big three. And then I was interested if, like, we had the same definition of the big three, which we did.

None of which are any of these episodes. Okay. So they're not considered, like, the big three of the, like, most special Buffy episodes. Right. Okay. Those are all still to come. Right. Yes. But it, no.

No, it was Incomami Girl. Incomami Girl, Reptaboy. Yeah. and praying mantis lady. I mean. No, but Passion is my favorite. And I've talked about this before while trying not to talk to you very much about it. But like, we'll get to that in a second.

Let's do our, let's do our snapshot. So Buffy Season 2, just a reminder again about what it was like. It sounds so dusty and old when I say it is what it was like to watch a 22 or sometimes 24 episode season of television. Killed by Death was the only episode to air in March. And killed by death, I think, is one of the worst episodes of Buffy the Empire. That's the one I did not enjoy. Yeah.

I thought that was really dull. It's pretty bad. And then I only advise for you, which spoiler I love is the only episode to air in April. So there were two episodes across two months that we were like sitting here trying to figure out what's going to happen with Angel, what's going to go on. And we were given one very bad episode. And one episode that I love, not everyone loves it, but I just absolutely love. Yeah.

But that's just like crumbs. to nibble on while we're waiting for the story to resolve itself. Another benefit of the 22 episode season, which I've been thinking about a lot, is the way in which we pass time with the characters. This might sound really obvious, but it's something that we've really lost in the micro-seasons or the years between seasons or the binge model, which is when seasons of television, especially seasons of television set in a school, start in September or October and end in the like May or June, you are with these students, as you are when you read a Harry Potter book from

when they start school, when they start school, and let's say you're in school, you're starting school. When they celebrate Halloween, you're celebrating Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas. Buffy's birthday comes at relatively the same time in the season every year. So you're like a Buffy a Buffy birthday episode is coming up. And so it just like gives you this different way of passing time, spending your year with these people. And then when you come back the next season, you both had your summer vacation. What did you do on your summer vacation while we weren't together? And it's just this very special feeling that, yeah, like, I mean, there are shows that

air on the network still in a similar model, you know, like Abbott Elementary or something like that. But it's just like it's not the way we consume our stories anymore. And I think it can result in a slightly shallower connection to characters because you're not spending that time with them in the same way. Yeah, and certainly like more disorientation. Like even something like Stranger Things, which is very rooted in the coming of age, we have gone from middle school students to high school students. Okay, some of our characters have decided not to go to college or apply to college. Like, it's the same time in people's lives. You can have the really fun experience of saying it's a summer season finally instead of a fall, Halloween, spooky season. But like, wait, how old are the kids now? Where are we in the year? And then it's three and a half years between seasons. And you're like, wait, so they're not actually 33.

Right. Yeah. They're 16. Marking time and just sharing that, like, rhythm of life. I think you're right. It's both elements. It's the flow of the season itself, but crucially also the time between seasons. And it's something like the fact that there's one episode in April or something like that. While in real time, and of course I remember that experience well, also, you know, from the shows I loved when TV existed in this form, those weeks felt agonizing or the weeks where you're like, okay, there's a rerun on.

But like what happens next? I mean, what sweet summer children we were having no idea that we would be waiting. The years. Three, three and a half years for new seasons of some of the shows that we love. So different time. And I don't think all television shows should be 22 episodes per season. No. But it is a perfect thing for a show.

show like this. Absolutely. Truly. Okay. I also want to highlight something that I have that I feel very passionate about, which is that the run of episodes, which is surprise and innocence, which you covered in part one, through phases, be wished, bothered and bewildered, and passion is like an all-time five-episode streak on any show.

I would put that up against any run, five episodes of any show, personally. Yeah. The way in which each episode bleeds into the next that like Oz and Willow and Innocence bleeds into phases, Zander's romantic trouble and phases bleeds into bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And Jenny and Giles like awkwardness, angels poetic torment and be which bothered and bewildered, bleeds into passion. It's all just sort of like feels so coherent, so planned out, so of a piece. The way that they meet out these little moments, these Giles and Jenny moments, these

angels sort of popping into phases or be which bothered and beware. Wilder does just sort of like remind us that he's here to do something very nasty, which he does do in passion, is just, I think, masterfully balanced storytelling. And then, you know, even beyond that, when we get to becoming, which we will talk about it because it's the other, you know, two-parter that we want to highlight. But that episode is one of the most devastating things I've ever watched in my life. Yeah. Especially if you don't know. Angel's coming back. Sure.

You know what you mean? You know that there's a TV show called Angel, but like... I was wondering, I wanted to ask you that, like, how much in real time... You know, it's like pre-theory fodder internet era, like everyone's on Reddit speculating. Right. But how, how latched on were you in real time to... All right, well, she didn't behead them, you know? I was too...

I was too swept up in the... No, I was too... dumb and teenage and innocent to like, I was like, well, that's it. Our brains weren't working that way yet. And I wasn't like, what is David Borianis's contract? You know, like, I just didn't do that. Later, a few years later,

alias would do something similar with a character between seasons. And at that point, I was, like, there were enough message boards and I was dialed in enough to be like, well, I think this person could have gotten out of that somehow. You know what I mean? Like, but no, I was like, Angels. That's it. Angels gone.

But angels in hell. Yeah. What are we going to do? And this is something we love to talk about. We talk about like breaking bad or something like that. The way in which the fearless way in which these writers have written themselves into a corner where their leading man is in hell. Yeah. Their leading lady has been expelled.

Principal Snyder. Geez. Is alienated from her mom. And has left town. So how are we going to get out? how are we going to get out of this one? You know, is like a fun, a fun thing that they've challenged themselves to figure out,

which I really love. I really admire that about the show. And it is obviously in some ways related to what you were saying a few minutes ago about just the length of seasons back in Ye Old Yonder. Like, it's 44 episodes of Buffy now, which is the entire run of some series. So when you think about it with our modern brains, expecting most television seasons to be six, eight, ten episodes. You're like, damn, by the time

you got a 44, like, you better have done some shit. You better have tried some shit. You better have put your characters into really precarious situations and had them go on an emotional journey and the plot journey too. But this is actually, sorry, not 44, because the first season, excuse me, was what? Twelve episodes. Still, right? We're in the 30s. That's a lot of TV. So even so, especially because midway through this season in that, you know, five-episode run that you're highlighting here, you can feel the show discovering everything that is meant to be. And so that makes it feel so early still in the overall spectrum of what Buffy is. And of course, now I bring the awareness of how many total seasons it is, even though you blew my

mind last pod by revealing that Angel comes in the middle. I still am like, I don't understand. Wait, what? But it's bold. And I think that there's a aspect of that where you, you in this era of TV where you had this many episodes, you could try things. There's also an aspect of, like, you had to try things, right? You had to justify your existence all the time. But there's a confidence behind that, not only in the ability to write creatively, to think actively about how the world will function. One of the things I enjoyed about this season is, like, I think a very methodical and conservative dripping in of wider world. lore building, right? Like, Whistler arriving, I don't really know what all that means, but it tells

me something about the powers that be the form that they will take and the kind of guiding hand that might be active in the world. The little bits of insight we get. I also love something like the way that Giles, like, we get a werewolf episode and he's just like, this is a classic. Like having fun with stuff like that. And he was so excited. He was so excited to go read the book, which may or may not be coming up in one of my categories today. But yeah, there's like a real like a, are just assured hand. We understand who these characters are. We have a lot of room to try different things.

Sometimes it won't work, but that's part of like the joy of it is knowing that then you have more space to come back. There's so much pressure now when you have six episodes to make something work. Like when you talk about this, I love the example you use with Lost, right? Who are your characters?

How do they spend a day? Right. And just like, in one of these episodes, which one is it? No, the beginning of Becoming Part 1. when the kids are just sitting around the cafeteria table talking to each other, when Zander's sort of like reenacting the fight with the fish sticks and stuff like that. But that's just like, that's a classic weed in.

The Avengers are sitting around a table talking to each other scene. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like we're sitting around the library. We're going to class. We're having a movie night. You know, you're spending time with these characters spending time with each other. And that deepens your, like when you only have six episodes, there's no subtlety available to you.

Right. Inside of an arc, you can't, you can't have the, what happens to Jenny and Giles in this season, the sort of like blossoming and then the sort of like falling out and then the brief, bright flame of a possible reunion only to be snuffed out. I'm still not ready. If you have six episodes, you can't do something like that. Yeah. And then the fact that you have the space here to explore those moments. I loved, another example that I really loved was the, um, because Buffy has been six.

So Joyce is like, I am here to see what you, my daughter need. Oh, yeah. But then Willis like, while you're up, I could use a refill in Xander's like some more cheesy chips. You know, and they're just teenagers who are sitting around having snacks and Joyce is like, get off your ass and go get it yourself, but also sure. And that just feels like the moment in a life of a friend group and kids, whether or not they are battling the mystical, they're just like spending an afternoon. And so that really, I think, contributes a lot to what you're identifying to in that larger sense of just you feel like you've lived a year with. them. You feel like you spent this time in their life with them because part of a year of your life is the quiet stuff too. It can't all just be loud and showy and scary and sad. Sometimes life is

really fucking boring, you know? And that's what makes it real. I love it. In terms of that sort of audacity to do things, I do want to spend a second talking about Angelus. Obviously, we talked about him a bit when we talked about innocence, but I wanted I wanted to spend some time talking about Spike last time so we could spend this time talking about Angelus a bit more. sent me a screencap last night. We should do this at some point. We should. Of Angel and Drusilla.

And I don't need to say why you sent it to me, but obviously I knew it was Angelus because we're in the back half of season two. I knew what you were watching. But I was like, I bet I could without any context, zoom in on the face, tell you at any given time whether David Borianas is playing Angel or Angelus. Part of that has to do with like the light base that they've smeared on his lips. the extra smudge of eyeliner. Like they like extra deaded him up for it.

But it's also just like the way he carries himself, his posture, his smirks. Yeah. Like he's just. The glint. Just very identifiable as Angelus in this stretch. And I think he's, I already said it last time, but I just think he's tremendous as Angelus. Carlos, you have your challenge. By the end of the Buffy rewatch slash first watch, let's present Joanna with, I think in order

to make this a real test, it has to be like. a lot those screenshots. And I am predicting now that you are going to get every single one of them, right? I need a tight zoom on the face, so we have no context clues. That's the key, right? Very much in the mode of the thigh. Yes. Okay. Name that thigh. Name that thigh, which you did a great job with, I thought. I still, every now and then I have like a, just a wave of like heat and anxiety comes over me for having Rebecca Ferguson's thigh. I'm just like, I can't have very few thighs than me more to me. I just still can't believe it.

Really should go to the eye doctor. I have so much to say about Angelus. I can't waste to hear everything that this character has meant to you. Let me start here. Please. Leather pants. No, I was, well, that fits too. There's a lot of really nuanced, deft storytelling and character examination here.

I think that everything with Angelus is like absolutely legendary. for both Angel and Buffy, really and everyone. And I love the way the different character journeys and plot points mapped onto each other or played as like mirrors. Yeah, foils, yeah. There is shorthand sometimes, though. Even in a story where beautiful writing and time spent is centered, Shorthand, we're in a minute, in a beat in an instant, you understand what you need to know.

And we got that here. Puppies. Somebody was offered a puppy and did not kill it, and that somebody is Spike. However, it is now canon that he jealous, nailed a puppy. I did appreciate Buffy saying, let's cut it off. Do you think Sunshine is fine? I think Sunshine was probably with Priscilla too long to be fine, no matter what Spike decided there. I don't think Spike partook.

I think probably Drusilla got a little partial on the way back from the magic shop. It's upsetting. It's worrying. The moment where Buffy's like, I don't need to hear anymore. I don't have a puppy moving on. Very appreciative of that. But then, of course, it comes back up not only because Sunshine's presence makes this thing of it, but the fish kills Willow's fish, harrowing.

And then Willow is like, first time I've ever been glad. Parents didn't let me get a puppy, deeply fucked up and dark. I love everything with Angel and Buffy in this stretch of everything. episodes, obviously we'll be talking a lot about Angel and Jenny and Giles. The Angel Spike. Drusilla. Drusilla. Triangle is God-tier stuff.

I really is. In this stretch of episodes, just incredible. And that's, so let's talk about a couple what-ifs. What if they had killed off Spike? You know, Spike was supposed to be Angel's first victim. So it wasn't that he was supposed to die when a church organ collapsed on him. But rather, when Angelus sort of swans in, he was supposed to kill Spike. was supposed to be like such a cool bad guy that when Angel kills him, you're like, oh, shit.

Yeah. But sort of imagine the back half of the season. Drusel and Angel delightful, captivating. Fantastic. But imagine it without Spike seething. I'd prefer not to. And then having that like stand up moment in the chair. And then the sort of the enemy of my enemy is my friend stretch and becoming.

What a team of. Absolutely incredible. And then let's talk about some Angel what if. So this is what Whedon says about the choice to make Angelus. He says, I think the Angelus arc really let the audience. know that we were interested in change. They were interested in shaking things up as much as possible and interested in just making things as grown up

and complex as we could get away with. As it grew and the more we thought about, the bigger it got until it became really complex adult kind of show. And then something that, you know, stop me if you've heard this before, but Angel was someone who was supposed to die

six episodes into, Borian's only contracted for six episodes. So six episodes into the 12 episode season. he was supposed to die. Right. To think of a world where we never heard the accent work. Stay tuned. Truly life-changing.

But Joss said about Angel, he was a tall, had a long coat, cool hair, and I did know how to write him. Those were the kinds of guys who would beat me up. So, quote, I wanted to tear this guy down because only then when he got back up again, did I understand why he was a hero. I love that concept. That's very good. And we think about that a lot, I think when we think about the Avengers. and Joss's work there.

But this idea that Joss is like, I don't know how to write this guy. He's too cool and handsome and I don't like it. So my hope is to kill him off. And then the network's like not great. And also David Greenwald, I should say, who's a Buffy producer was sort of hired on because Joss, no story, came out, you know, wrote the original Buffy Vampire Slayer movie screenplay, which we had a heated discussion about over dinner last night with Van. But hadn't made television before.

This is like the Damon Lindelove-Carlton-Cuse duo on Lost. Damon hadn't made, like, run a show before. Joss hadn't run a show before. So they brought David Greenwald in because he knew how to do that. He wasn't a kosher runner. But he was really a driving force behind Angel. And then he wound up running the Angel spinoff. So he's really the guy who was like, what if Angels is a vampire?

Because originally they were going to be like angels, this like mysterious entity, which might be why when you see him show up at the beginning, he's so different. We talked about this in season one. He's so different from then what he becomes. So they had the idea midway, part way through season one. Let's make Angel a Vampire Slayer in love with a vampire. And it's just like, that is the show. But it wasn't the original idea, you know?

I always love learning about this, hearing about this, discovering this, not just the things that unfold in real time and that, you know, the George R. Martin idea of being the gardener instead of the architect. which obviously television like necessitates. But when it goes to that extreme of it's not just a thing that ended up mattering, it's like the heartbeat and identity and Boyd Crowder and and Jesse Pinkman. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. I know. And that's, I mean, I love, I love whenever you bring up George being a gardener, but I always love to think about television, especially television in this era as like a reactive medium of something that is

can bend and grow and change because in a 22 episode season, they're writing as they're airing episodes. And so they get to see in real time what audiences are reacting to and they can sort of like, for better or for worse, sometimes for worse, but sort of shape the story to react to what's hitting with an audience at home. So another part of that is what seems pretty clear. There's a lot of rumors around and I don't want to say anything is definitely true without having a quote to back it up. And I couldn't find a quote to back this up. But what feels right is that Joss really wanted Zander for Buffy. Zander being the Joss, we didn't insert, the way that season one ends.

Yeah. And the promo photos for season two, which I didn't show you. But like it's like a love triangle sort of setup of Zander and Angel. Buffy for the for the promo shots of season two interesting and so you know this this is what Joss wanted it's not what the network wanted it seems like and it's not and it's something he got talked out of and so um that is just something that's another what if huh to think about you mentioned the accent work i'm so i i am like quivering with anticipation getting to hear you talk about this is round two of accent thunderdrome of season two

Part one, we did Kendra, the Vampires, Leah. RIP. In which, in this half of the season, Sarah Michelle Gellard does her own attempt at the Kendra accent at one point, which is wild stuff. Fathoms worse than what Bianca Lawson does. But here we're today, we gather here today to talk about Liam. I can't wait. We have two clips together. One is, okay, I've told you the story.

I feel very sensitive around David Borianas. I think he is tremendously talented as I'm jealous and we'll have things to say about the angel spinoff when we get to figuring out. We're going to talk about it and stuff like that. I don't want to kick this guy when he's down. So part of this package is David Borianas himself talking about this accent. So Carlos, will you play this clip combo? I got into work and we were doing a flashback so it was Angelus and he was in this Irish thing and I was working this Irish accent that was horrible.

The Lord is very forgiving. Tell me your sins. And the wig. So I'd ask myself, What's the lady of your station doing alone in an alley with a reputation that this one has? This is the accent we love to call diddly eye potatoes. What's something? of your stations.

Remarkable stuff. It's like genuinely. So, um, our... Darla, my queen. Oh, Darla. Darla. Back. thrilling.

As promised. Yeah. Our listener Paris, we're going to say, please tell me this is the last time we have to do an angel flashback with this terrible Irish accent or that maybe the accent gets better. Paris, no, it's not the last time. I'm happy to hear that. Paris. This is like crack. This is great.

No, it does not get better. Oh, I'm loving every second of this. It never gets better. It's always this. And he knows it. And that's okay. just a thing we accept about Buffy. So, yeah.

I got such a kiss, such a kick. Now I have to pay attention to see if this is always there. But the subtitles on Hulu, oh, tell me. Say, bracket, the first time he speaks. Yeah. Bracket, Irish accent. I'm sure you can't tell at home.

Is that there just to clarify to make sure we know what it's supposed to be? That's incredible. Also, man, I know we're in accent. What's the idea of your station? The, um, uh, interesting to know that turning via like blood from the teat, you know? A little chest suckle. It was, it was a, it was a, the decalentage. Yeah, yeah, the decalitage.

No impact on the accent, you know? But mother's milk, you know what I mean? Quite. We are, rebirth is a real theme in becoming, if you didn't notice. All right. So between Kendra. Yes. And Liam, if you had to pick a winner for accent,

Thunderdome of season two, and we're leaving Spike out of it because we decided to. I, what do we mean by winner? You know? Yeah. Here's what I'll say. I think that the Kendra accent is more consistent. And so as a performance, I think it is stronger, as a choice. I think it is worse and more confounding.

Okay. But what our guy, William, is putting out into the world here, I'm not sure. You had given me like a little, you're about to experience something that will help you understand why both Accent Corner and Wigwatch are such a seminal part of. This is the origin story.

Your heart, your soul, your career, the way you move about the world. My livelihood, yeah. And so I knew that I, I knew that something unique and notable awaited. But honestly, nothing could have prepared me for this. And so I think Liam has to be. Dave Borianas, you win the prize. I will say for like genuinely good accent of the season, Juliet Landau is American.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Martin Landau's daughter. So, you know, something to think about. Okay. Also, we do need to do a season two wigwatch Thunderdome really quickly, right? Please, yeah. Because we just saw the Liam flashback.

which is its own very special treat. But in becoming, we also get Lolita Buffy, right? Just enormous blonde hair. Hemory High, Buffy, 15-year-old Buffy. With a lollipop as Angel grubby in a car looks at her from the shadows. Super weird.

Not great, I would say. Super weird. But she's rocking quite the sort of rat's nest of blonde hair on her head. head wild stuff. Can't believe we didn't get Ford in like the background there. Oh, no. A chance to go for us for for. What was Roswell doing? Looking for aliens. Missed opportunity. I don't know what Roswell's about. He's an alien on that show? Uh, I can't remember. I think Colin Hanks isn't, but he is. I can't remember. I watched that in real time when I was, I can barely remember. As I told you before we recorded, I couldn't remember whether something happened on Monday or Tuesday. on this podcast this week, even though those episodes were about drastically different things.

If you had to pick a winner between Liam's sort of raggedy brown mop situation. I thought that was great. And Buffy's sort of like deflated bright of Frankenstein. I want to repress the memory of seeing that the Hemry, the wig and the lolly because it's too disturbing. The fact that that is there to really, as you're saying, make her seem even younger because she is, then makes it just, you kind of can't not think about. The age gap has always been an issue.

And they talk about it. They make it active text, right? I've done the math, et cetera. But this is like a, she looks like a kid. Yeah. Okay. So the. Big yikes.

The winner, but which is actual loser is the Hemery High blonde wig. Yeah. Okay. I kind of, Liam's wigs are nuts, obviously, but I do like that. He's, you know, he's stumbling out of pubs and like. The little ribbon in here. trying to like get a blowjob in an alley. I'm kind of like, this sort of tracks for me, you know?

What's a lady of your station? Yeah. Sure. All right. That takes us now to our favorite episodes of the stretch of the season. I'm not sure I'm emotionally prepared, even still. God. Season two, episode 17, passion, written by Thai King, directed by Michael Gershman.

This is the first of season two that is not a Joss Whedon written and directed by. This is my favorite episode of Bath of the Empire Slayer. mostly because of how it forever changed the way in which I watch television, changed the way in which I understand how a story works, all this sort of stuff like that just changed my DNA, like changed me. I tend to dislike voiceover as a rule. It is often used very lazily, but is actually used in both passion and becoming, I think, to great effect.

So let's hear a little bit or see a little bit of the passion voiceover. Passion. It lies in all of us. sleeping, waiting, and though unwanted, unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. Great stuff. So good. And then we have the opening stretch and then it comes back in the middle and then it closes the episode as well.

This sort of like, you know, without passion, we'd be truly dead. The original scripted version was way, way worse. So perhaps that version that we just heard was a. was a punch up from Jaws. Because the original version had phrases like, it's scabs only to rupture and bleed anew. Like, it's just, I don't want to be talking about scabs in passion. But either way, in both versions of this passion speech that threads for the episode,

passion like vengeance that we talked about in innocence is a living, breathing thing. It opens its jaws and howls. It is the way, and the way that that episode is called passion, We're monologuing about passion. And passion has to do with, like, you know, the love and lust that Jenny and Jal's share for each other. The love that Buffy had for Angel, all of that. And also just this, like, twisted, demented, hatred, this passion that Angelus has

for violence, the artistic way in which he, like, snaps Jenny Callender's neck. Like, all of this is just, like, all roiled up together in sort of this. concept that I just think is exquisite. Really great. It was fun to you know, I'm watching you've seen these a billion times. Not sure if I've mentioned this is the first time I'm watching

Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So I'm watching the season one time straight through. Right. And then I'm going back to watch it again. And it was interesting to just, I actually should have like kept a formal tracker of this, but across the episodes, how often characters say,

the word passion. And of course it fits into this larger emphasis and this sense of like self-awareness and understanding of what makes her powerful that Buffy has about herself. Like so much of the show and the story is about journey of discovery, doubt, shame when you're unsure. But as we talked about last pod, like one of the moments I really loved was when Buffy said to Kendra like, my emotions are my superpower, right? And so when you can center something as the driving force of your ability. I care. I want this. I fear it. And then all of the other characters have their version of that. Right. Like this episode, one of the things we hear at the beginning of the episode is Giles saying, as a slayer, you don't have the luxury of being a slave

to your passions. Well, where are we going to find him in just a few scenes? Out of control. Everybody, because that's what it means to be alive. Everybody is driven by that. And I think of, I love, I really agree. I love the way the angel voiceover was stitched throughout this episode because I think it also just heightens the sense of like as our characters are moving further apart from each other and for Buffy, you know, for Angelus, it's an active like I'm playing with my food, I'm going to torture and torment and then we see the complexities of that for him

after I only advise for you, right? Love seeping back in. What did it feel like? For Buffy, there's this dismay. of what was lost that then sort of like corrods and turns into anger, right? And all of those are passions of different forms. And the fact that the characters are simultaneously moving further away from each other in terms of their relationship

and what they shared, now they're opposing forces instead of a unit, but they're united in this respect. That's brilliant. The Whistler voiceover did not work as well for me for one reason only. And I suspect it is, I don't know how long this guy, around. But I suspected it is something I will feel very differently about on a rewatch after I see more of him in the future. But I was kind of like, I don't know who this dude is. So why am I listening to him? So why am I listening to him? Now, I really liked the two-part finale,

particularly part two, which I thought was a banger. And I thought that the writing and the ideas in those voiceovers were very compelling to me. But I found myself wondering if they had been voiced by a character I had an investment in or an understanding of already. Of course the opposite is also there for us, which is that's kind of the point, right? Is like, what is true for somebody who is coming in without all of that attachment and involvement and looking at it from like 360 degrees? Sure. I think what's really interesting about the Whistler voiceover, we can, we'll come back to talking more about passion. We can skip over to that for a second is that the Whistler character, something that we haven't raised so far, but one of the huge influences

on Joss Whedon for Buffy the Empire Slayer is the Chris Claremont X-Men comics. That character of Kitty Pride is basically Buffy. Whistler is such a comic book device. Totally. Like the voiceover is so you would read it in boxes and the frame. And then like the way he comes in. No question. You know, it's like so comic booky.

It's so like Roroshaki. It's like all this sort of stuff like that. And so I will say it's not a device. vice that the show leans on much in the future. Yeah. But I think that it's something that Joss was trying to sort of like pay homage to the roots of where he learned this kind of storytelling. You know what I mean? That doesn't mean it has to work for you.

What I think is interesting about the voiceover, and I love everything you said about my favorite episode television. I love hearing you talk about my favorite episode of television. But what is fascinating to me about the passion voiceover, Yeah. And the way in which we are watching Angel sort of stock Buffy into the bronze. He's in the alleyway as they leave the bronze. He comes in like Edward Collins' way into her bedroom and watches her sleep. He's leaving drawings for everyone.

This makes Angel or Angelus sort of the protagonist of this episode. There's a danger to Jenny, obviously, and one she doesn't survive. But from a certain point of view, she's threatening everything that Jenny is doing that Drusilla is moaning and visioning and stuff like that is a threat to angels' life. And it's driven by the threat to Angelus and Angelus's whims and all the sort of stuff like that. And there's just like a way in which this is like his episode. And that's not something I ever really considered about it for years when I thought about

it is one of my favorite episodes. I just thought about it as this like shocking thing that happens. But for the Buffy writers, you know, unlike lost, Buffy is not usually a show where you can say this is an X episode, but sometimes you can. You can say this is a Zander episode. This is a Willow episode. This is a whatever. This is Jenny's episode.

It's Childs Up, but this is Angelis's episode. And I think that's a fascinating thing to do is to take us inside of the heart and mind. of an aside something like romantic and poetic to his desires inside of a season where he is like

he comes at the cost of not only our heroines like heart and state of mind but also a character we liked an angel you know and and absolutely and the writers are like let's take you inside the mind of this guy and sort of see it from his point of view

which is astounding work I think I think like man that's I really love that insight and thinking about it that way and just thinking about how that could even be possible and what that says about the deafness of the show and the depth of the connection between the characters because the fact that that is true even in a scene he's not in right so like you have something like a moment i really loved to do that the edward point um you know when buffy is lament she's grieving right and before we enter a different type of grieving. And she is genuinely, like, I don't understand how this is the same person, right?

This person I loved, I fell in love with. Yeah. And we'll hear Buffy say elsewhere, like, you don't just stop loving somebody, right? And she's like, how could you stop loving me? But also, she can't stop loving him, right? So you have a scene where she's just trying to kind of process and understand. even though she can't understand how different and jealous is from Angel. And Willow has that great moment where she's like, yeah, well, except for one thing. You're still the only thing he thinks about.

And so what an incredible insight and moment to think about their relationship and that tie that binds them, but also to your point, structurally, a way to like center him and root him in a conversation that he's not actually there for. And in an episode where he is like so often in control, right, he's terrorizing them. He's killing is he's killing Jenny, teacher makes three, like all, you know, he's laughing at Buffy and being like, you're just going to let your old man burn, you know, like, he's laughing inside of like, even when she's beating the shit out of him, he's in control, but he's out of control. Because this idea of like, you're still the only thing he thinks of, you're a vulnerability. Yes, exactly.

Yes. I love that part of it. The fact that we have this, like, Dracilla Primer, which we talked about a lot, last episode, that Angelus was the worst of the worst, that there was no one who, like, lusted after the violence and the torment and the ability to really in every way tear down and destroy another person. Right.

So you're like, fuck, that sounds pretty dark, pretty bad. Then we shift into, okay, now we know what the MO is, how he's inclined to operate. We need to take seriously that this is what we're about to witness. But Drusilla, as we get to say, I really liked that we got to see the way that, like, he's just draining a priest and then she comes to confessional, right? Like, that's how, that's how this happens. And perfect setting, of course, for, yes, for what he, yes, for what he will say to her too about, like, be evil, right?

Lean in, this thing he's doing. And that with Buffy, all of that, be evil, lean in. Child. I really like to the way he said, child. I was getting good shit. You know, there's the, like, he's playing for love of the game. But he is to that point about vulnerability. He's like, this is a thing that has happened to me that I can't abide.

This makes me someone who in this state I can't allow myself to be. I don't want to be. And the reminders of what it felt like to love Buffy and to be loved by Buffy and to be loved by Buffy. that's a type of becoming. It's interesting how it's impossible to actually separate talking about these two episodes, which speaks to a good season. And the bridge in between them, which is, I only advise for you, which is a really important episode inside of this idea.

And I think I also want to talk about something for becoming. Because when we meet this idea of like a vampire with a soul or a vampire without a soul or is angel, how connected is angel to angelous or how connected is. Or how connected is Liam to Angel to Angelous? When you have someone like Spike who is, you know, as we discovered in innocence and surprise, like the judge is like you're full of love and human emotion. Yeah. And boy do we see the jealousy. Yeah, exactly.

An angel, there's nothing in him. Right. But that doesn't stay true for the rest of the season, right? The love seeps back in and it agonizing is agonizing to him. You know what I mean? That reminds me, too, of what he said in innocence, right? She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you can just forgive.

Yeah. Now, obviously, like, forgiveness is a big part of the stretch of episodes, too. But even in innocence, the way he turns that into, like, a taunt to buff you when he says, you made me the man I am today, right? There's, like the weaponizing of it, but that is fueled by his own terror. Mm-hmm. that he was capable of feeling that way. I only advise for you

when he is expressing his outrage to spike, right? And he says, what do you know about it? I'm the one who was friggin violated. You didn't have this thing in you. Oh, my God. You know, and I think Drusilla is like a demon.

A demon who's like love. Right? Great fucking moment. So the, so this idea of like, what is Angel? What is Angelus? You know what I mean?

This is something that like, Xander, for instance, cannot distinguish between the two. Right. But, you know, Buffy and Willow are sort of trying to. Like, you know, is this a different person? This is the same person. And then we meet someone like Whistler in becoming who is a demon who is good. Right. And so it complicates the whole question of sort of like, what does it mean to be a vampire with a soul? What does it mean to be a vampire? If you are a vampire without a soul, can you be good anyway? Is that possible for you? Right. A great question to ask. It's on my mind. On a show like Buffy Van Paxley. It's on my mind watching even just for a few brief, beautiful moments, our beloved Buffy and Spike fall into not just a, okay, here's my offer, here's yours,

let's counter, let's tackle. But one of the things I love about that is just the instant cahoots in the shorthand of like, well, he's not going to be able to go tell on us now. They're just in a rhythm. The way they fight together. The fight is so good. That was just like electric. Really loved that.

On the Whistler front, too, like this was really fascinating to me. Again, do we love that Buffy looks like she is like... 15? The age that she is there? No. No. But I did really like that extra insight into how Angel found himself on this path, right? Like, it's not just...

In terms of with Buffy, but also, you know, when they end up... They're on the same sidewalk at the same moment, and they're fighting the same vampire. they're looking into the same thing in season one. You're kind of like, how long has this guy been doing this? How long has you been fighting the good, right? And to realize how recent it all was with that clarity, training his chasing rats into garbage bits like Darth Mall.

Yeah. And the, that's a reference to a conversation we recently had on our villains pod. Check it out. It's not just that he like genuinely and authentically fell in love with Buffy in real time, which is also true. It's that the possibility of somebody like Buffy, like a Slayer, trying to challenge evil, an evil that is relentless, that comes in waves, that you can only ever fend off, one of the themes and beats we love to talk about in various fictional universes that we cover,

that that gave him purpose, like a sense of possibility. There's someone else out here who's going to try. What if I tried, too? That they were united in that, not only in that sense of being pushed in by an impulse that wasn't their own. Yeah. Right? Like your watcher tells you this or your Whistler tells you this. That's a shared history now, even though they don't have that, like, total awareness about each other.

Buffy doesn't know that history about Angel yet. We do. That's interesting, too, to like know more about him than she does. But that they like ultimately opted in. You don't have to always opt in. This is the choice, this idea of the choice, which we talked about a lot when we talked about Ford in the first part of season two, right? And lie to me, this line that she has of like, you have a choice, you don't have a good choice, we have a choice, which is like where she finds herself at the end of the season with a sword in her hand, right? You have a choice. You have a choice. You have a choice. You know, okay. So to sort of wrap up the passion conversation, I want to highlight a couple other things.

Yeah. The Joyce and Angel interaction makes me want to die. So intense. The Joyce and Buffy talk after that they have. Yeah. It means a lot to me. We have a lot of notes for Joyce. We might have some notes for her in the finale. Though I have a lot of empathy for Joyce having a lot of information thrown at her at once. Yeah, I feel, yes, I think it's all in the mix with Joyce.

They're there, we'll go through all. I think those things will come up in some of our categories too, but it's a lot of like, you can feel what it would be like to be buffy and just want your parent to say like, I love you and I accept you and I understand you and I'm not judging you actually, whether it's because you had sex with somebody, I didn't think you should, too young, whatever, or because you're a vampire slayer and I'd rather you not be because it makes me scared. But also you're like, I understand why you are scared. If your kid is out there trying to slay vampires,

every night, you're probably worried that they're going to die. And even before that, when she's like, I like that when Joyce is expressing her frustration or questions about Buffy's judgment, she doesn't say you slept with someone, she's like, you slept with someone you didn't even tell me you were dating. Right. You know, it's not just like, it's not quite slut shaming. It's just, it's not like you add sex so sex is bad. It's like, you did this with someone you didn't even tell me you were dating in the first place.

Yeah, she's worried. She's concerned. Like, I do always wish. that Joyce were like able to, but I loved the way that conversation ended and the way that they, I mean, the, the end of the season is obviously a different animal in that sense where it's a parting instead of a moment of reconciliation. Yeah, reconciliation. But yeah, Joyce is having a season. It's, it's tough. The writers considered killing Oz instead of Jenny. I mean, I would have really been sad to see Oz die. Yeah. But it doesn't. on nearly the same impact. He just got here. Yeah. And I'm glad to have him. You know, he disappears for a bit after Passion, but he comes back into the finale. And I'm glad to have him here. I'm despondent that Jenny's gone, though. So if there had been a universe where she had not died, I would have loved that. But also, dramatically, and, you know, what it tells us about the stakes,

what the show is willing to do, the fact that we could lose somebody truly at any moment in any way that nobody is safe and that our characters have to really confront. I mean, it was so, there are so many devastating moments in that episode and then obviously in the wake of it. But when Giles says later, like, you know, he's thinking about all the people he's buried as the watcher, but he says, Jen, you're still the only one I loved. Yeah. And what that tells you not only about the impact and the depth of this loss, but the remove

that you feel like you have to keep yourself at from other people when this is your life? Which I think is another parallel of Buffy because I, my feeling is when what happens to Buffy and Innocence happens to Buffy, Buffy is never as available to another person again as she was before what happens to her in essence. And a different kind of innocence. I think one of the reasons why I love passion so much is I think about teenage me who was like innocent in the way of storytelling

and was not yet like had not yet read too many things or been too jaded by like knowing behind the scene stories or anything like that and was able to be completely swept away and swept up and surprised and devastated. Even when, and I've told this story before, even when my friend who used to tape Buffy for me handed me the VHS

of passion and she was like you need to watch this immediately. There was no danger of spoilers, right? Like we didn't live in that age. I wasn't going to get spoiled necessarily by like going on Twitter or whatever because it didn't exist. But she's like you need to write.

Mostly she said that I think because she wanted to talk to me about it. She's like, you need to watch this right away. I had to wait till the weekend to watch it. And then when I watched it, because like now you knew you were like something's going to happen where Giles and Jenny are either going to have sex

or she's going to die. Like you had been, there had been enough, like, little hints wandering around you and you're just, you just know too much about a story that you knew something like that was going to happen. I was on my guard. I had someone hand me a tape and say,

you have to watch this. And it didn't occur to teenage me that a character was a, a character I liked was about to die. And, and I, when she's running through the halls of the school, Yeah.

And, you know, like, throwing janitor cards and angels just, like, having a great time, like, playing with his food. And you think for a second that maybe, you know, she knocked him over with the janitor's cart. She made it up the stairs. And then he comes around the other way and she runs into him in front of that beautiful half-moon window, which I told you, I have, like, visited at Torrance High School. It's right above the entrance. You can see it in the external shots. right above the entrance. Right.

And I like, I'm not only like gone to that window, but I have like seen other Buffy fans like. Yeah. Absolutely. Stand in front of that window. It's just like a real, it's a beautiful,

um, framing of it. They could have chosen anywhere, but they chose in front of this thing. And then just like, it's like ballet. The way that he, the flourish of his arm as he does it and the way she falls.

And, yeah, um, you know, um, the fact that he just snaps her neck. doesn't drain her. It doesn't drink from her.

Right. Makes it all the crueler, right? This isn't even in pursuit of, like, nourishment. He's not feeding. He's killing. He's killing. Yeah. You know?

And we didn't have said that they did that for a couple reasons. One is that they didn't want anyone to think that Jenny might come back as a vampire. But another is just sort of like to make it that much more demented that he just like snapped her neck. I, I mean, this is, this is so like masterfully executed. It's, I've said this about other things with Buffy, even just only a couple seasons in, but it is interesting to think about then like the influence of choice like this has on other people who are weaned on Buffy and then make their own things, you know, you can really start to feel the fingerprints. Yeah. The callousness with which he says, like, this is where you get off. You're just on a train.

I decide when your journey ends, right? I get to play God. I get to determine who does what, when, and for how long. and not just the violence of it, but the arrogance of it and the cruelty of it. And like, you know, to what you were saying earlier about Angel standing as the protagonist in this stretch and how he's centered in this arc in part

because he's like, I have to avoid this outcome. Jenny got the orb, right? I'm not even going to talk about the computer stuff now because it's coming up in like 100 of my categories later. Like, you know, there's this self-preservation of stopping this thing, but it is compounded and amplified

exponentially by the how and the otherwise, right? He is, what is he doing ultimately? He's trying to not have a soul or sort. Okay, he's tormenting Buffy because this also fits into the like, hurt everyone around them, everyone in the web. He has a history and a relationship with Giles too.

He, like, he knows who these people are and what they mean to each other. A line that kills me every time I rewatch Passion is when Jenny's in the magic shop and she's like a gift for a friend. Yes. And then, you know, when you watch it the first time, you're like a gift for a friend and you're like, oh, she's talking about Buffy, she's talking about Giles. Then she says, his soul.

So she's talking about Angel. Right. It's like, yeah. Angel is a friend of hers. Like they work together. Right. Yeah. And he just kills her.

And then there's, of course, the like, twisted staging. Yeah. The wrapping of the gift as, as. Buffy, you know what I mean? And the way that like, like you said, the kind of mounting, the rekindling of something between Giles and Jenny, the possibility

that there could be a path forward. Her love confession, but he does not return it. He says it later over her grave, but he doesn't say it to her before she dies. And even that moment when she's like, he's like, do you want to? And she says, like, I wish I could take it back. And he's like, they are confronting

something difficult, which is this secret and this betrayal, right? You know? I think the that moment, he's like, that's like, yeah, well, that's what happened. You call it a betrayal because you betrayed someone, right? Yeah. But they feel the way that they feel about each other and part of the lesson that Giles will impart later that I will spoil as coming in a category. But what he says to Buffy about forgiveness was like one of my favorite moments of the show

so far. And that is extra powerful because it's not only wisdom he's imparting, it's a lesson in a journey he's on too, right? And they're all on these entwined journeys. and Jenny is saying that Angel is a friend and trying to help because she wants Buffy and Giles and everyone to forgive her, but also because she cares. She knows what they all mean to each other and who he can be. And we saw her like right before it happened, her trying to like sort of back out of this

thing that she was pushed into, you know, and tried to sort of stop it or see what she could do right before it all goes horribly wrong. Yes. In innocence. And then here again, do this work. She did back up her work on a floppy disk. We do appreciate her for that. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Jenny. Pre-cloud era. Thanks so much. Always back up your work, kids. And I also think it's really interesting that to go back to the method of death, the fact that despite the fact that he's not feeding on her, they had him vamp out. Because as we said, like, we were afraid if he did that with him. his human face, we would never want to watch Buffy kiss him again, essentially.

And so we had to put the demon face on in order for him to do that. And I appreciate that. Same. There are sort of some things you can't accept and that might have seen Angel as Angel do this. Like, even though he is angelous, might have been one of those things. And I'm so interested to see where the story goes in this respect moving forward. Like, this was one of the things we talked about at, you know, midnight on a Saturday night or whatever, when you had been waiting for me to watch this. And I saw it and we needed to talk to each other and like, forget. We'll return to across this episode is I very on my mind because of task recently, this idea of like, can you forgive other people? Can you forgive yourself? The grace that you can show other people or grant yourself. Angel has done this thing now, right? This has happened. I don't know exactly when they

bring him back from hell or how. I don't know when Buffy comes back to Sunnydale, but I know that this is something that doesn't just go away, this history. And part of that. journey is that when you center the idea of forgiveness and how paramount that is in not just the relationships that you forge with other people, but like your willingness to try to make the world a more accepting place, that it's not going to be actually easy to follow through on it when you have to look at the person who took somebody away that you loved, right? I also think that like the aspect of this where Angel, like the state of the state at the end, the gift wrapping, the rose in the door, the champagne on ice.

The patini. We've seen him kill Jenny, so we know what Giles is walking into, even though Giles doesn't. But even still, your heart rate hits a different level when you see the envelope. Like, you know he's left another breadcrum in his trail of horror. And the fact that he is staging this, putting Jenny in a... a bed that she and Giles like never got to share, right? They never got to be together in that way.

Which comes up and becoming when Gisela takes on her. Oh my God, that scene was, whew! The thinking that Giles is walking up, Giles thinking, we know, but Giles thinking that he's walking up the stairs to that one true moment of happiness that is the thing that led Angel to become Angelus again. Right? That moment of love and connection with another person, like that extra degree of like parallel pathing here was really, really expert. I also just, I love everything you just said. I love the way that Anthony Seward had plays that, which is sort of catatonic disbelief because the breakdown comes later.

But this is just sort of like his horror, but not a big gesture of horror. And then it cuts to him outside the apartment with the police on the scene and stuff like that. And his just like, again, he's like catatonic. the way in which, to go back to this idea of Angel is protagonist of this episode, the way in which we see Buffy and Willow learn about the news from Angel's perspective. We are outside the house. We don't even hear all of it. You can find that dialogue it exists online like they were reading real lines. But like we are outside watching Angel bask in the afterglow of this thing that he did.

And this is just the sauce on the dish for his. of a of buffy sort of catatonic slump down the wall and willow sobbing in Joyce's arms like all of that stuff is is from his point of view and then also the way in which he has set the scene with the roses and the music and the champagne and all of that puts him almost in this sort of like Xander is the author insert but like he's the showrunner of this show like he is the set decorator he arranged the music he arranged everything he is the creative stuff storyteller inside of this episode. And that just gives him like this extra anchor of power. Yeah. Inside of this world, which I think is like absolutely exquisite. Then we get the Giles sort of vengeance moment. And Giles like storming into the factory, RIP the factory as a evil lair.

We're moving on to the Crawford Mansion. But like comes storming like is slick action. We were glad that we saw Giles beat Ethan Raine up in Halloween because we're ready for action Giles. a little bit here. Yeah. Almost kind of gets the drop, you know, like spikes holding Drew back. So like almost kind of gets there. Fafi shows up to rescue him, you know, is trying to beat Angel.

And he's like, you're just going to let your old man like burn. Rescues Gile. And then they have one of, as we've already mentioned, several end of episode connection moments of her saying, like, I need you. You know, and him just completely breaking down in despair. And she's like, what about me? I can't do this without you. This is my favorite moment of the show so far. I mean.

Yeah. This is, I'll just spoil this to my pick for Most Emotional Moment. I have a clip for it. We can play it now. I can play it later to end the pot on it. Like, this is the way that Giles pushes her away at first. Because when you have lost something, sometimes your instinct is to just lose more.

Yeah. Right? or you're afraid you're going to lose more, and so you don't want somebody in that situation where they might get hurt. But like the moment where he says this isn't her fight, what could possibly be more her fight, but also from Giles' perspective,

like what could feel more personal, both of them, Giles and Buffy in their own ways, surely are feeling that anchor pulling you down into the pits of hell of like, I wasted a moment with someone I cared about, right? That is like the single, no matter what your experience is, That's like the single most relatable thing.

And shame and guilt. Jenny's drawn into this because, well, actually she wasn't. But like, you know, Jenny's drawn into this in part because of me. A.I. made Angelus, you know, is how Buffy feels about it. And I pulled her aside on campus to say, like, you're still feeling like shit, good. Yeah. You know, and of course, for Giles, it's like a little bit of the opposite. It's we were just connecting again.

We were so, right. So it's agony all around. and then the way that she just lays him out and says, are you trying to get yourself killed? And then just embraces him and they just weep and like sob and shake in each other's arms. You can't leave me. I can't do this alone. I mean, holy shit. Allison Hannigan is, I think, just a top tier crier.

But I think Sarah Michelle Geller is the best at, she does melodrama so much. well and the show can get quite melodramatic. It's going to get melodramatic again at the end of becoming, right? But she, possibly because of her origins in the soap opera world or whatever, she just like thrives inside of, we talked about this when we talked about the season one finale. Like she just thrives inside of these like tearful, passionate sort of moments of shouting and crying. She's the queen at that. Yeah. I mean, she's like fantastic. And what this says about how she feels about Giles and what he means to her not only as it's great that it comes right on the heels of Angel using that like old man right because of father like she yeah he's her

watcher but he's so much more than that and then I just from the from the Giles side of it like so much I mean he's full of heart always but so much of of his role and his intent both from a storytelling perspective and his own like view of how he needs to guide the group is like I have to be measured. I have to be sensible. I have to find the right volume. Yeah. And like, you know, a fuddy-duddy and all that sort of stuff like that. And he just breaks down. Passion. Passion. Yeah, it's beautiful. That really, really, really wallets me. Like, I thought that was amazing. The final moment is at Jenny's Graveside, as you already mentioned, right? I've buried a lot of people I've never loved. This is the first I've ever loved. The way it echoes, and I'm really once again glad that we did lie to me is in part one because the way in which it echoes Buffy and Giles at Ford's grave site at the end of lie to me.

Buffy's saying I wasn't ready, but I think I finally am. Like, here we go. Incredible episode of television. We did it. Incredible. All right, becoming part one and two written and directed by Joss Whedon. We're going to play a little bit of the voiceover that I like, but does not work for Valerie. And that's okay.

I like the language of it. I'm just like, who's this guy? Yeah. Let's hear it. The big moments are going to come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

So once again, this is a becoming. So many people are becoming something inside of this two-parter. This is very much the becoming of who Buffy is in this new phase in her life. That is very true and very present. Yeah. But I once again ask you, given that we are in angel flashbacks, the becoming of how did Liam become Angelous? How did Angelus become Angel? You know, we get these sort of like steps in the, you know, how did Drusilla become Drusilla is inside of this as well? Still some questions about Spike? Yeah. How did Spike become someone who would team up with a slayer when we know that he, not only has he killed to you before, he's like, true bag to slayer.

You know, how did he become someone where that was a compromise he was willing to make in the way he lives his life? Because the thing that matters to him, Drew, is in jeopardy and is constantly he's made to feel like a diminished lesser than version of himself by Angel. But my question is, because we get all these angel flashbacks, is Angel once again kind of the protagonist maybe of at least part one? Do you know what I mean? I just, yes. But I think also like the answer is like yes and no and all of it. Because it's like it works as like this. I'm not taking Buffy from Buffy.

Buffy is the protagonist of her own show. No. I just thought it was interesting that like these two episodes or three, the two parter, are like because this is such an Angelis centric arc are so centered on his experience, who he is. What is the depth of his depravity? What is his origin story? This idea of, you know, we talked earlier in the season.

about Impada's this sort of like chosen one foil for Buffy. Angels had chosen one inside of this episode, right? They got it wrong. That my guy at Whistler.

Yeah. You know, you were supposed to bring balance to the force. Right? But he's chosen. He has a destiny, right? So like this idea of the powers that be is a concept that

will guess what? This is the last time you'll hear of it. Like recur inside of this show. But this idea that like both Angel and Buffy have a destiny are chosen for something. Right. The one vampire in all the world, the one girl in all the world who can do this. I love that. And I like, too, that there's room for the rest of the ensemble to have a version of their becoming or new becoming too.

Willow's becoming a witch. Willow's just full on on faculty. This like, you know, keep subbing. Can you keep subbing? This is one of the funny. I don't know if this will come up again today, but this was a little. like absolutely astonishing. I'm like surely this will be for like an episode half of one episode. Nope. Incredible stuff. We have a lot of notes for Snyder. This is among them. Listen, if you were a substitute

teacher in the greater Sunnydale California area area, are you taking a gig at Sunnydale high, given I believe we've now seen five members of faculty die. If it were me. I simply would I simply would not eat a part of a friend, and I would simply not. Teach it Sunnydale. We have like, Zander becoming. Zander has always been a complex figure, right? But the choice he makes to not tell Buffy. This is Zander's toughest episode.

That Willow is trying once again to run the solar restoration ritual. is like, I'm like, how long will he carry that? What will working through that be like? I mean, that is a massive, massive, massive thing to withhold from her. And the consequences, obviously, of it are supreme. So every character has a little bit of their version of what are they becoming or continuing to become, which is just, you know, it's great. When, I'm so disappointed by how Xander behaves in this episode, these episodes,

not just because, like, it is objectively disappointing. because I really thought he had been making progress as a character, I think, in, like, Be Wich Bothered and Bewildered. Like, there's a lot of, like, work that he's doing to grow. But he backslides so hard into season one, Zander. And even worse, it's not just this, this, he has reasons to hate Angelus. They all have reasons to want Angelus dead. Yeah.

But there's no doubt that it's tied up inside of his weird shit that he's had about Angel and Buffy this entire time. Yeah. And then also he lets that shit slop over onto Willow, right? Like there's this bedside love confession to her that like the most charitable reading is that is platonic because he's talking about their friendship. But the way that he reacts when Oz shows up makes it really feel like not in Cordelia, perceptive as she is, has been like calling him out on this shit. Across these episodes. For many episodes.

But it's just like this dude thinks he runs the world of all the women around him. And it, Zander has better moments after this. This is like my most frustrating Zander experience. So I don't know if this is like a controversial take. I kind of liked that. Okay, great. Tell me why. Because it just felt true to the character.

And I think that both because backs, like Zander making linear progress to me would seem impossible. I think that he is, yeah, he's like a 16, 17-year-old boy. But also, he's messy. see, he is very, like, it's on front street, like, how motivated and driven he is by impulse, right? And he also, and we've seen many times his ability to lead with this instinct, cares deeply about his friends and wants to support them. But the idea that, like, in the moment of reckoning where he had the opportunity to potentially, like, share something that would help a person who he

has always, as he's happy to say in passion, right, like, I was early to this and you guys were late. I was right and you were wrong. And like, I thought, you know, did it need to be a moment for boasting? No. I'm with you there. But he was like, I was not surprised that that was his reaction. That felt true to Xander to me.

And then, like, here I was like, like, I gasped when he did, when he didn't tell Buffy, when he chose not to tell Buffy. Kick his ass. I was disappointed. I'm with you that I was like very sad and disappointed that that was the choice he made. But it felt not only like. I don't know, maybe this makes me sound really cynical and this is like kind of a dark thing to say. Like it didn't just feel true to Xander to me.

It kind of felt true to human nature to me. That like when you have a, sometimes when you're like, this is a thing I've wanted. And maybe I want other things now and I've grown and I've learned. But a thing I could say could get me a little closer to something that. I think I have to table how I feel about this until we get to like season three. Makes sense completely. Because it all sort of depends on how like the show.

show views this decision. And I do not have that. Do you know? Contacts. I, my, what I will say, now I'm, I'm interested to, yeah, I would expect there to be, like, consequences for this. So if that's not the case, it will change how I feel about it. Um, on the sort of, Angel's, we sort of address this, but I think it's really interesting to compare Angelis is, she, love my mug. Just love my mug. I'm so glad. That's like the easiest gift I've ever gotten you is the Giles Jadeite mug. And a lot of our listeners saw it in the thumbnail photo and knew exactly what it was.

If only we had been able to secure those TV age notebooks, you know? If only people made... Just think of how we could have been using props all this time. Merch people actually wanted. Okay, anyway. In innocence, right? When he's talking to Drew and Spike, we get... We're going to go to destroy the world.

want to come, want to come, right? And Angela says, yeah, destroying the world, great. I'm really more interested in the Slayer, right? He doesn't want to do that. Yeah. In becoming, after I only advise for you and everything else that he's experienced, right? He will swallow the world and every creature living on this planet will go to hell. My friends were about to make history and now he is all in on Apocalypse Palooza.

And I just love that as a, again, that doesn't feel like an inconsistency that feels like, Like a, you know, someone who is just like, cannot bear the human feelings that are crowding in that moment and I only advise for you where they kiss in the music room. And then the ghosts that have been driving them depart and they're still going at it. Man. I really liked that episode. I love that episode. Clever concept too. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just like it has profoundly, profoundly impacted the way that Angel views. views his experience the world. And, like, Spike of the many great Spike moments in these episodes, but when Spike talking about, like, you know, vampires don't really want the world to end, it's big talk, right? I love the world. Like, you know, people walk around happy meals on legs, you know what I mean? Like, you have Manchester United, like, all this sort of things.

Like, Spike just loves life, right? And he loves being in the world. Angel is so disgusted by his own humanity. the humanity that is encroaching on his demonhood that he just wants to send everyone to hell. You get rid of one slayer and you have not gotten rid of all of the reminders everywhere. And that's like what love or hate

does to you. Everywhere you look, we talked about this when we were covering Last of Us recently. I will not use specific character names here, but like when we were talking about loss, right? And grief and the way that like a beam of sunlight hitting the sleeve of garment. Yeah.

Could elicit that depth of response. What's the only way to not constantly stumble into reminders of that person, but also then how that person made you feel? Just get rid of it all. That's it. That's it. Spike, I just need to say. Spike showing up.

This was incredible. It was incredible. Yeah. Spike and Buffy heading over to Buffy's house. She doesn't know. Joyce rolling up. The whole we're in a band stretch. Incredible.

Yeah. The fact that both this episode and passion have room for comedy, the moment where Spike is just sitting with Joyce in the living room. Hardest I laugh. She's like, have we met before? And he's like, yeah, you were like, get away from my daughter, you know? Later, Molly Weasley will say, not my daughter, you bitch, because of that moment we shared at the high school.

You don't remember? Yeah. I mean, I just, Joyce and Spike are very important to me. And this is just like a very important, incredible stuff. Important moment inside of this episode. Love that. Okay.

We've been talking about parallels and mirrors and stuff like that. Yeah. I do want to call out this sort of full circle. So there's obvious bookends inside of this where we get the becoming of Angelus when Darla says, close your eyes, it bites them. At the end of the episode, Buffy says, close your eyes and stabs him. So that full circle moment is very clear. The waking up and not remembering who you are, which happens, you know, as Angel and, like, again, again.

Unbearable to watch. But I also love the, I mean, so happy to have Julie Ben's back, love Darla. I love that outside of this episode, I love the, like. Like, you know, sure, what's the lady if you're starting to do in an alley like this? But like the alleyway intro of both Buffy and Angel and Liam and Darla here, I really love. I want to take you now. We've already talked about Joyce. She did her best.

I want to take you now to, because I'm not as good at you as you are, like, remembering how lines go. I think I often like kind of misquote this. But I have quoted this part of this episode on me. many a podcast that we've done, and I'm so glad that, like, when I misquote it in future, you will now know exactly what I'm talking about. We're going to play a clip from this moment in Becoming Part 2. No weapons. No friends.

No hope. Take all that away and what's left. Me. Fucking dynamite. Fuck, yeah. Incredible. This reassertion of identity, right? So, like, Buffy has been floundering.

Yeah. ever since innocence, right? Just sort of like, and you really see that spiral. And I only advise for you where she's like over identifying with, with great Cordelia life. Yeah, perfect, perfect Cordelia moment over, over identify much, right? Like, really good. Where she's just like blaming herself and, and, you know, kicking herself.

She's wandering around both, like, her two best friends are in, like, loving relationships to whatever degree. And she's just sort of like at loose ends. And, you know, her mom has kicked her out. Her best friends in the hospital. Like, you know, her watcher is nowhere where she can reach him, et cetera. And she has to dig down deep inside of her, which is something that like Whistler sort of set up for us. For both Angel, right?

Who are you? who will you become? Yes. Right? And for Buffy in this moment. And I just think about it all the time. That visual of her like grabbing the tip of the sword with her hands is like. I thought this was spine tingling, like chill inducing electric.

It was really fun for me that I'm like, here it is. There it is. You know, I've here we are at this like moment that I know means so much to this person I love. It's an incredible part of getting. to watch this. It's just such a treat. I'll spoil another one of my categories. This is my pick for best fight scenes. Oh, yeah.

Not only because it's an incredible... You're dueling with swords. Yeah, a dueling sequence, but because we talk about this, our beloved pal and colleague Charles always does a great job with Star Wars of talking about this element of like, you know, the duels that you remember are rooted in, right? Yeah. This is a great fight sequence because it is rooted in shared history and individual growth and understanding in equal, beautiful, balanced measure.

And if there were any other two people swinging those swords at each other, wouldn't mean anything else at all, right? And so, first of all, like, that might be my favorite bit of Borianus yet. Like, that's the way that he says that is so... withering and eviscerating and savage and the intent is so clearly not to beat, but to destroy somebody who has in some way you think destroyed you, right? But when Buffy, like so much of Buffy's journey, I, you know, I really am loving this part of the show, like the way that it is able to hold two truths in its mind at once. Like I was thinking watching this scene back to what we talked about

a lot last pod, just like the way that Kendra and Buffy talk to each other about their different relationships to being the slayer and to this like purpose, to the responsibility to the destiny. And, you know, how much of Buffy's journey has been about celebrating the people in her life, these relationships, her team, her watcher, her friends, like that it's not just about her. It's about when will she learn, when will she train? who's there with her, her stakes that she's whittled, maybe she was gifted a steak. Mr. Pointy. Mr. Pointy, very important.

Am I like, did I have a stroke or did the stakes used to disappear and now they don't? Oh, in a dusting? Yeah. Did something change that? I don't know. I'll have to like Google. I haven't told you I'm afraid to Google anything. I'll Google this for me.

By the way, we got a message from a listener who told me that he and now, And I believe him. He sent proof of himself in like vamp makeup and stuff like that. But he was on the VFX team for the final two seasons of Buffy. And he's like, I dusted like that's what he did. He dusted vampires for two seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So shout out to that listener for. Did your reply back tough to see someone else live in your dream?

It's like really felt like some good dusting in those final two seasons. That's incredible. Very good. It's like so much of it is about the unit and the team and the found family and the actual family all of it. But like sometimes being the chosen one is lonely work, right? And sometimes you do have to be able to say, like, I'm the only one who can do it. Or I have found again the strength of myself to celebrate the fact that I can do it. There was like an element, a little bit of an element to me in this moment of Buffy saying me, even though this is more of a like empowering moment of saying

like, I can do this, I am capable of doing this, you can't take this away from me, all of that. and the thing I'm about to compare it to is the deepest sense of isolation and sorrow and loneliness, but it's like a little bit like Harry walking into the forest alone. That's what I assumed you were referring to when you said sometimes being the chosen. Yeah, which is like, as I've mentioned many times, my single favorite chapter because it's like, there's the stay with me moment, right, with the stone, but like he doesn't go to Ron and Hermione. Yeah. Right?

And like that matters when you find these characters in a moment like that. So I just loved, love, love this, that Buffy is like in a position where she is the only one who can do this thing and has to find that in herself again. And then because it is lonely, it is also a celebration at once, right? Like of what you can do. Heart, passion. Passion can give you strength. It matters. Her friends are her superpower.

Right. But it also matters of what she can do alone. And we saw her do it in the season. one finale, right? She walked into the master's trap, right, knowing that she had, she didn't have a good choice, but she had a choice. And she made it, right? And it's, so it's returning to who she was in that moment because she lost herself for a bit this season, you know? And that's the other thing, too. It's like, the me, what is the me? She is the only one who can make that choice. Yeah. To do that thing. Right. Great finale. So good. I want to return to.

to the very end. We're at the very end, but I did skip over and I apologize, Drusilla. So I want to say, first of all, RIP-Kendra, obviously, great, the hypnosis stuff is like, and the nail on the neck. Her manicures have been on point all season. Now they are lethal, like, really good stuff. Buffy's slow motion run in the teal coat will become a staple of the opening credits. So it's just like a visual that is like really impactful to me. But, but. But similar with her sitting up with a rocket launch runner on her shoulder. There are just certain images that are just like, when you, when Nerf Herder is playing on the opening credits, you watch the opening credits every time.

There are certain, like, images that burn themselves in your retinas. But I want to give you clear some space for you to talk about Drusilla as Jenny with Giles. Oh, my God. This really, like, was almost too much for me. I mean, I did, this is fucked up to admit, but I found, I found this like pretty sexy. Which is part of the point. So did Drusilla. Yeah, I mean, they're really like I got in the moment.

Yes, just like Drusilla. I was in the moment. Sorry. But, you know, there's the sexiness of the kiss and like Giles who has been, you know, deceived leaning into that closeness and this thing that he longed for and craved. The way that she like runs her fingers through his chest hair, all of it, It was like very visceral and very physical. When Giles says, Jenny, I thought I'd lost you.

I was like, I almost like needed to like stop watching to recover. It was so fucking sad. And Giles had had done such a good job as Angel had like tormented him and tortured him and threatened him with chainsaws and all the rest. And then, you know, the thing about Angel, what makes Angel diabolical, well, this is Spike's idea, actually. But, like, Angel throughout is using the lessons he learned for being close with them, like, the way in which he has Buffy Fall for the same trap that she fell for. Right. And then box for it. And he's just sort of like, you never learn.

But, like, he's using his angel knowledge as I'm jealous to, like, you know, this is a Spike idea, right? Because Spike has tried to keep Jal's alive. That's the bargain. That's the deal that he made. And I love all of Spike's moves here. He's like very good at it. But yeah, this moment is like, it's devastating. Crushing.

You and I talked about, and I said similar about Darla. Like when Jenny died, I was like, but it's a supernatural show. She's dead. Right. But this won't be the last you see of the actress because this is a supernatural show. You know what I mean? We will see Darla again. Can't wait.

You know, et cetera. So like, it's all part of it. Anything else you want to say about that Giles and Jenny moment? Or Jel's in Drus and Drusilla moment. I broke my heart. So I think that's really funny though, right? Is then like Spike and Angel are talking and you can hear the like kissing foley in the background of them talking. And then they're like, Drew, honey.

It's over. Come on. She's in the moment. Okay. Can't say I blame her. Last but not least, before we head to our categories, you had sort of like raised this question after school hard. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of what does Snyder know and when did he know it?

PCP. PCP. perhaps you'd like to take that up with the mayor. Any thoughts or feelings that you want to have about? And then tell the mayor I have good news. Tell the mayor I have good news. You know? You said hellmouth?

We're on a hellmouth. Hellmouth. I am intrigued this idea that Snyder was placed here, not just to mock dearly departed flurry for getting eaten by dogs. That's the other thing about Xander, though. Sorry. He'll be very passionately about this. Yes.

Yeah. For Zander to not be able to distinguish between Angel and jealous when he was a hyena person, and it's not just that like he admits inside of the season that he remembers exactly what he did. That was great. But like, yeah. He's like, I thought you didn't remember. I thought you didn't remember that. But like, he would have eaten Flutie if he hadn't been busy sexually assaulting Buffy when he was a hyena person.

And he can have no quarter for Angelus being a different person from Angel. Zander has some growing to do. Okay. Sorry. Back to the vast conspiracy that is so many-dial. So there's this idea like, okay, well, who is Snyder? How did he become a part of whatever this faction is that led to him being placed there? But also, like, then, who are these other guiding hands?

Especially interesting when you have a character like Whistler coming in, right? And it's like this really wide view of these forces in the world and the universe, right? but then is there a more like localized version of like are these just like are these magical beings are they just people who have learned about this thing are they trying to stop something are they trying to bring something about all questions that I have and not answers that I possess also it does like really it is when Giles is like you know you like you can really just like you know you can really just like fucking hate kids. Why are you doing this with your life? It's like, well, clearly there's another reason. There's another reason. So that's interesting. I'm interested to learn more about

like, and I think this is, this strikes me as I would go so far as to say not only wise, but necessary, because I think a story can tip from, you know, we talked about this in season one a lot like, okay, you kind of, it would, it would be ridiculous that Giles and the kids are together all like this often if the other characters didn't. If Joyce wasn't like, wow, you really care about it. Yeah. And it's like, you know, the bigger version, of course, of that is like, this is just flat out too many people dying in this school and in this town to accept that there wouldn't be

actually awareness and either a cover up or some sort of plot. Gang-related PCP. B-C-P. Great stuff. Um, there's, without tipping it at all, I will just say there is a moment in season three that is my favorite. When I hear it moments of Buffy and it is like precisely like addressing all of this. Can't wait. I'm thrilled. I love it. Let's go now to our season two superlatives.

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I approached this one similarly to the first part of this season where I actually see favorite line for last because like, I mean, there's some absolute bangers here, but it's also kind of like leftovers. It's like things that didn't go in another category that I wanted to be able to celebrate here. All right. From phases, Buffy on the Bronze, who could resist Sunnydale's own House of Harmones, which I would say merch for both the Bronze and for this podcast. Do you love it? Let's think about it. From episode 16, I got such a kick out of this. This is like demented as fuck when Angel put the warm bloody heart down. I found it in a quaint little shop girl.

Insane. That's one of my diabolical. That was amazing. That was so great. Lots of passion candidates that we've already. All of the angel voiceovers from Passion are on the list, obviously. But I want to also note from Passion something we have not talked about yet, which was Willis saying, Ira Rosenberg's only daughter now on crucifix.

to her wall. I have to go over to Zanders just to watch Charlie Brown Christmas every year. Great And killed by death. I enjoyed Zander saying to Angel take a walk over by it. Yeah. Good stuff. Zander, and I got to say, like, in that episode, Angel comes into the hospital. Yeah. Zander just like stands him down. Like, it's a great Zander moment. By the way. Growth. Backslide. It's okay. That hospital, obviously, we've spent time in the hospital in season one as well. But it was so. present in the season that I'm kind of like, the pit colon, Sunnydale? Who says, no? Because it's all supernatural stuff? Exactly.

It's all people who fell on barbecue forks. We don't even have a barbecue fork. And also when killed by death, not an episode I enjoy, but it did have its moments. Because Cordelia really, you know, she's like, to Giles' dismay brought into research assistance. That'll be coming up on some of my other categories too. but when on the phone, Giles takes over the phone and he's like, Buffy, are you still there? And Buffy, who has been talking to Cordelia, replies, hanging on every you.

Love that. Go fish. I'm just going to fess up now. A weird number of my picks today are from Go Fish. I'm only like a crazy. You love Gage. You're a gauge head. I was like, crazy.

This is Wentworth Miller's first on-screen appearance. You can kind of tell. Yeah. But still, Buffy and on the like not eating the skin. Any demons without cholesterol? And then there's a beat. You're going to think about that later, Mr. And you're going to laugh.

That was great. Very good. And then this is my actual winner. Becoming part two, Buffy to Joyce. Do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is, how dangerous? I would love to be upstairs watching TV or gossiping about boys or God, even studying. But I have to save the world.

again. I have to save the world again is my, is my winner. Which I think is like, I mean, we got a similar sort of rant from her in the season one finale, right? To Giles and to Angel and stuff like that. But like, but it's such a far cry from, if the apocalypse comes, beat me, you know, I have to save the world again. Yeah. The way to go. Okay. I don't have any like serious ones for this one. I will just, my two remember. remaining are, I really love, sorry Angel changed the locks. We didn't talk about the lore, but you can like, Cordially being very concerned about the car. The car. Tough one for Courtney's grandma. She's like, I switched cars like but just the like sheafs of garlic that are in her car

when she pulls up later. It's really good. So sorry Angel changed the locks is a very good moment. And then when Buffy is cautioned not to jump to conclusion, she said, I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, their conclusions were. That was a great one, too. Is a line I love. All right. Best villain of the week. I am going with James from I only have eyes for you.

Okay. If that counts as a villain, I wasn't sure. Yeah. This was actually, like, I had a hard time with this category this time. It's really tough. But the reason I'm going with James is actually because of the question of whether it's eligible. Like, I love, it's not really about James and Grace.

It's more like, I just loved how Buffy projected. onto James and then had to confront that. That gender swap role reversal when our characters, our core characters are the ones finally who are in the loop of playing out this fate-sealing moment. And when Buffy says to Giles at the end, like James picked me, I guess I was the one he could relate to.

He was so sad. it just like shredded me. And of course the comedy of Cordelia's saying, okay, over-identify much, which was fucking great. Chris Gorman, who I know best from Ugly Betty, but has been in a bunch of stuff. And then also Meredith Salinger, Natty Gann, and of course, John Hawkins is in that episode. Well, okay, so this is actually like kind of an interesting thing about watching Buffy really, really on delay. Because when I saw John Hawks as the custodian, I was like, so he's the villain of the elephant. episode.

Right, because he's going to be John Hawks. I'm like, John Hawks. Casting spoiler. Yeah. No. No. He's just a guy. Yeah.

Twas the 90s. Okay, I'm picking. Tell me. From Go Fish. Oh, hell yeah. Coach Carl Marin. This is a great pick. Charles Seifers is coach Carl Maren.

I just love the like, I mean, we were talking about a sports scandal last night. I mean, we work at the ringer. This idea of like anything for the win, anything for the team, this, the, the, the way in which she like stabs the nurse in the back because she doesn't, she's not dedicated, like lectures Buffy about school spirit, tosses Buffy in being like, no, my boys are fed, but they have other needs. Like I'll always take care of my boys. Like all this stuff I thought was like all tremendously good. So, I mean, repulsive.

Yes. The only reason I did not pick him is. Because I have, I have like, so much go fish. I was like, I can't do go fish again. what's wrong with me. That's so funny. Okay. Oh, God. Best fit. So many options here. This was weirdly easy for me, even though I agree there's like a field of 400 contenders. I think there can only be one pick. And it is. It is from Go Fish. And it is. I feel like this has to be where we talk about Dander and Espito. But we could, of course, do that in Horniest Moment.

It's in my Horniest Moment. Fair. So I have other stuff in Horneous Moment, though also had this again in Hortiest moment as her runner up. This was so funny the way that this was filmed with like the slow pan up and Cordelia. Oh, oh, oh my. Now that girls is my kind of. And then Willis like, Xander. And Cordelia's like, Xander. And then when he's taught, you know, he covers him.

And then it's like, well, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah. And this is what I'm going to do in the locker room. And then Willis like, when you're nude, I meant to say changing. The fact that all that comes, like, right next to the Buffy Vampire Slayer eating popcorn gift that is Buffy and Willow sharing a giant bucket of popcorn at swim practice. I don't know where the bucket of popcorn came from. Well, you know, it's when you're contending for state, there are concessions, even at practice.

So that's my back to the speedo. What do you got here? Is it the iconic? Buffy Steel Coat is hard to. To not pick. To not pick. She wears gold pants and I only have eyes for you that are pretty memorable. Memorable.

Yeah. She's upper tier at the bronze, right? But, yeah, she's in a lot of animal prints this season. But for me, it's the iconic overalls of sadness that she wears as winter is cold and bitter, like, plays on the soundtrack. And she's just like donned her overalls of sadness to leave Sunnydale. come back soon. Great fit. Great.

Great fit. All right. Favorite, this is a new category. Yes. Inspired by you in the last episode, sort of outlining all the new places on the Sunnydale map that you have encountered. Do you have a favorite new spot on the Sunnydale map? I do.

Is it Lover's Lane? It should be because now I wish I picked that great comedy moment when Giles is like. What did you find out? What did you find out? She's like, dude. She's like so much. The gossip, the high school hot goss, the tea she's spilling, but then like the second part of that conversation, did anybody see anything? And she's like, they're not.

Yeah, they're not looking around. Looking around. Great stuff. But no, here's my pick. And there are a lot of candidates. I will be selecting something from the episode, Go Fish. I think I realize even, I honestly don't know how this happened. This is for you.

I am picking as my favorite new spot on the Sunnydale map, the ocean. The fact that these fucking kids spend all their time at the bronze when they can this easily go hang out at the ocean is nuts to me. This is, this like shattered. Your idea of where Sunnydale is. Yeah, like I understand it was like Southern California, but I'm like, slightly inland. Because the swim, like, it's canon that the team is just routinely going. going there. Now, granted, it's, you know, we're training or a swim against the current, all that. But I just, we both love the ocean. But like, and I say this, I should be honest. I should,

I should hold myself to account here. You don't go to the beach. No, because I was just going to say, I'm looking through this and realize, I was just going to say, how could you go eat a fucking, like, stale brand muffin at the bronze when you could sit there and look at the ways all true there, the house of hormones. You can't wear gold pants to the beach. They'll wear, well, Buffy could. The werewolves, like, being drawn to where the teens are fucking was really a choice that I thought was good. The, like, Cameron, piece of shit is like eternal, a true mother, giving birth to new life and devouring old, always adaptable and nurturing it constant and merciless. And Puffy says, boy, I was just going to go with him big and wet.

Great shit. The way that Cameron, here's my favorite thing about Cameron, a terrible person. Horrific. Is that even before he, like, has his, like, clear heel turn, Buffy is so bored of him talking about the ocean in the car. Maybe that's why the kids aren't going to the ocean more, because these are the self-important assholes who are hanging out there. cameras just be like, let me tell you about the ocean.

But I get it, you know, if this is a comparable, like, proximate drive from, I could, in theory, go to the ocean all the time, and I don't. And then I lament that I don't. And I'm like, why do I only do this when I have family in town? I will be going to the ocean. Are you? In the next couple days when my mom is. stepdadder here.

And then I'm going to have a moment where I'm like, why don't I do this all the time? And then I'm going to think about go fish. Six months later. What's your pick here? It's called, it will have other names in the future or there will be other versions of this in the future. But for now here in season two, it's called the Dragons Cove Magic Shop. There's magic shop in town. I quite enjoyed this.

There's a guy who does a whole stick and then he finds out who Jenny is and he drops the accent. The joke about people using the orb of Tesla as a, as a. paperweight, then Jalds is like, I've been using it as a paperweight. Incredible. Incredible stuff. Many episodes later. Um, when he just switched into, oh, you're in the trade. Yeah. Sorry about the spiel. But wrap out, I'd say I get a lot of tourists. That was great. But yeah, in an occult show, we should have a magic shop. And now we do. Okay. Rapid Fire, Best Cordelia, Oz, and Drew is a, do you have a clip for this? I have a clip for this. I don't. Okay. Let's start with, can we start with my clip? Yeah, absolutely. We're starting with Oz.

Man, Oz. I would love to give me some of that buffy willow action, if you know what I mean. That's great, Larry. You've really mastered the single entendre. This is, um, you've really mastered the single entendre is... This is my pick as well. A top tier. Yeah. Anything moment.

Unbelievable. That's my pick as well. I think there are two, like, runners up for Oz, one of which is also from phases. I kind of kick out of him saying, today's movies are kind of like popcorn, you know? You forget about them as soon as they're done. I did like the popcorn, though, just very, like, his delivery. Her saying hi, him saying, well, that's what I was going to say. Or he's watching the witch statue when she comes up. Oh, I love that.

Yeah. Him saying, huh, when he wakes up as a werewolf or naked in the horse. And then finding out that Jordy is a werewolf, like, huh. So. How long has that been going on? Like, Oz is just sort of like epitemite is just like, fantastic. He's really entertaining. I get quite a kick out of him.

The other one I really liked was in Becoming Part 1 when Zander is doing the aforementioned Fish Stick show. And Oz says, I thought it was riveting, though I was a little unclear on the themes. Also in Bewish Bothered and Bewildered when he finds Buffy. Oh, my God. And he finds her naked. And he's like, but you're not a rat. Call it an upside.

So all of that's really good. The way he like moves his flashlight so quickly he finds her. Great stuff. What is your Drusilla's entry? Boy, another just loaded. Loaded. Drusilla said here. She rules.

I really liked in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. When she said to Xander, Your face is a poem. I can read it. And Zander says, really? It doesn't say spare me by any chance. shh how do you feel about eternal life we can just start with coffee that's kind of a share drew zander uh selection there that's a very very good moment um i love impassion when she says

the air it worries i just the the way that she speaks like the specific language and word choice and turn of phrase is so great um i love and i only have eyes for you and spike says what about your dress sweet it'll get all dirty and she says then i'll sleep naked like the animals do and you I'm giving sunshine, by the way. When she offers to get Spike a nice, a nice toddler to eat, disturbing stuff. Becoming part one, nice walk, pet. I met an old man, didn't like him. He got stuck in my teeth. Then the mood started whispering to me all sorts of dreadful things. That is my pick. Great pig. What about you? Heather, your face is a poem. But also when she has sunshine and she's trying to offer sunshine up to spike, she says open up from mummy, but right before she says that she like growls, she just like, and she does a lot of growling. And like there's just like a lot of Drusilla is that sort of high flow and prophecy language that you talked about.

But also just like her physicality, the like way she like sways and dances and, you know, growls and all, you know. And that photo you sent me of Angelus and Drusilo and she's just like sort of like pawing at the air behind him, it's very good. Okay. Last one at least, of course, the Queen Cordelia. So I limited myself to five nominees this time because our beloved Courtney is just represented in so many of my other categories today. Here are the five. Phases. Loved this.

Cordelia to Xander, this is part of what you mentioned earlier, just like that. She is calling Zander out on his Willow and Buffy shit. Is Willow sending out some sort of distress signal that only you can hear? Fantastic. This is my favorite one. This is my winner, and then I'll throw out three more contenders. This is a public forum here. This is Zander's like watching.

Oz and Willow interact on the bleachers. And Cordelia says, I think you splashed on just a little too much obsession for dorks. Great shit. Hard to not pick that as a clip. Something that bums me out is the idea that like, I don't know that it is like Calvin Klein's obsession for men still a thing. And so will the children these days understand obsession for dorks? Probably not.

Being a 90s kid, that one really just like, fuck that landed. From Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. Damn it, Sandra, what's going on? Who died and made you Elvis? Very good. Passion. Right, thanks. And you know I'd do the same for you if you had a social life when they're like, you can go.

And then this is kind of my co-winner, actually, with obsession for dorks from killed by death. When Giles says, Cordelia, have you actually ever heard of tact? And she says, tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass. And I like what she calls back to it later. I think that's the epitome of Cordelia. That is like the Cordelia. line. And look at us, nominating killed by death for something. Also from

Kill by Death when she says we're all concerned with how gross you look to Buffy is like pretty phenomenal stuff. But also Cordelia's whole sheep speech in Bewish Bothered and Bewildered. Am I say, if I keep a be wish bothered and bewildered or bewished? Let's see. Bewildered and bothered. I know that episode 20 is called Go Fish. Bewish bothered and bewildered, right? Bewitched bothered and bewildered. Yeah, that's the lyric. Okay. So yeah, like her whole sheep speech to Harmony and then also the moment when she's wearing Xander's locket and she has to pretend to like get it from her locker. My two favorite moments for their relationship, the locket and kind of, you know, sheltering in the locker so that he wouldn't know. That she's hearing it, yeah.

And then that little moment where she just, they've been bickering, they're going at it. But when she comes back to the hospital. She offers get him coffee. And she has like the donuts and coffee and just like that like the kind of like quiet shorthand of I really like that. Yeah. They have some stuff to work through those too. They sure do. All right.

When Willow cries, we cry. This for me was we've already talked about this, but see, us watching Angel watch Buffy and then Willow receive that call from Giles about Jenny in passion. The different responses, I mean, they're both distraught, but the different response. responses from Buffy and Willow. It was so powerful. The way it's blocked that Joyce comes in, she doesn't even see Buffy. So she's like going straight to Willow to come for her because she can't even see like the Buffy where Buffy is. I would say similarly that I think that is clearly the thing.

But also in I only advise for you when Giles pulls her out of like being sucked into the ground and she said, Jenny could never be this mean. And I was like, I know it's not her as it. I'm sorry. But Jenny could never be this mean the way that she says it. is like really, really good. And then I have some like upbeat Willow moments that I want to point out. 1-800, I'm dating a skanky ho. And the Buffy goes, meow. And she goes, really? I've never gotten a meow before. And then in passion, when Joyce and Buffy are talking and Jals is like, should I intercede? And Willis just goes, sure. Sure. What would you say? Yeah, that's amazing.

And she just shows them to the door. This was an amazing Willow stretch these episodes, this part of season two. I mean, everyone. Willow stretch is amazing. I like, too, when she's like, you know, I want the smoochies. Like, you know, have you dropped some hands like I've dropped to hand it. I love the Cordelia Willow scene in the bronze, like inside of phases. Yeah, I enjoyed when they were bonding over dudes being dipshits. And I will say, in Kill by Death, when Willow has to pretend that she's hallucinating, the frogs come back. Frogs come back.

That's not. Good stuff. That's actually not the callback I was thinking of. But I was like, oh, the frogs are back already. Okay. All right. Wow. Quote unquote, bad episode you'll go to bat for.

You already know my pick is Go Fish. It's my pick, too, because it's certainly not killed by death. No, I, yeah, no. And those are kind of the only two contenders from the stretch. Like, fuck Derkinderstadt. That's, like, one of the worst villains that this whole stretch has. Yeah. But yeah, Go Fish.

David Fury episode, originally said earlier in the season, pre-Angelis, was where we're supposed to go. Angel's barely in the episode. He just comes to, like. The placement in the season is weird. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a little bit weird. Yeah, it was originally supposed to be earlier this.

Tell me, because I didn't have the context at the time. When Shape of Water won all those Oscars was every single person who had seen Go Fish like, say the appropriate things. Is that what a thing that happened? No. This is like a shape of water prequel to you? Absolutely. The physical comedy and visual hilarity of like the fish people, like, sliding into the meant the first time.

Incredible stuff. You mentioned when you picked Coach Marin as your villain of the week that like, well, we got to win at all costs. This was like a very coach Marin going full Herm Edwards. You play to win the game to me. So I got a real kick out to that,

even though he is a piece of shit in a monster as expressed. Comedy in this episode, of course. course, I enjoyed Zander saying when Coach Marin has to, he's feeling a little dry, nothing, a little lemon butter sauce won't cure. Great, great stuff. Really funny. I also liked when he was like, well, chem test at three that I'm meeting some of the guys for plasma transfusions at five. Very, very, very, very funny. And there's something from this episode that I loved so much. I will be returning to go fish to honor it in another category. Extraordinary.

Yeah. Wentworth Miller tells the story of making this episode, again, his first thing that he's ever done on camera. And he's like the scene where gauge is like hand comes out and then like his skin comes off his chest. And they like sort of kidded him out. And he was like, then they were like, we only have one of these kids. Don't fuck it up. So get it right on the first take. I got to kick out of the moment when like, because there's this, you know, the through line of the episode of like the stench, the foulness. Right. And that moment when he's like, you know, smell like, is that. Like, you're in the locker room, you're changing. Clearly, you've just showered, but you know, teenage boys. Passive hormones. Great stuff. Great, great, great stuff. We both agree on best fight scene.

Yes, Buffy and Angel with the swords. And they're great swords, too, by the way. Oh, yeah. Horneous moment. We've already addressed Zander and the Speedo. Yeah. What are your other contenders here? We've got Buffy's little trench coat with nothing on and be wished bothered to be

Wildard. Yes. Joyce hitting on Zander if you wish, bothered and bewildered. That was... Feels like a hot night. And then Angel, any responsibility I can assume, sort of his ongoing sort of taunting of Spike by being very suggestive about Drusilla. Quite.

All very good. Extra pair of hands, etc. Great, great nominees. My, you know, I kind of feel like a... obligation to myself and the bad babies to talk about Giles and Jenny while I can once more. Your last job. You know, I, people can see in the little instant reaction video we did that that'll be up on the socials. That literally one of the first things I said to you was learning that Giles takes his glasses off for sex was really something that I'll be thinking about

a lot moving forward. But ultimately, I can't select. anything, even that, the look on his face, because he thinks he's walking up the stairs to fuck Jenny, but we know he's not. So that's not horny. It's just like, yeah, sad. Yeah. However, is your pick yourself for wearing a shirt that is covered in Jiles's face? Oh my God. This really is an episode for video guys because Mallory has really shown up this week in her Rupert fandom. I'll probably just wear this every pod. Maybe I'll alternate between like this and the overalls. You should wear the overalls over it. Well, no, because on I'd be covering his face, so that's not acceptable to make a point.

I guess I could do the like one. Yeah, the criss cross. Yeah. Can I still pull that off? Probably not. But earlier in passion, while Jenny is still alive, in that moment of rekindled possibility, working their way back toward each other and the promise of growing even closer.

When Jenny says, Rupert, okay, I don't want to say anything if I'm wrong, but I may have news. I need to finish up here. Could I see you later? And Giles says, yes, yes, you could stop by my house. And Jenny says, okay. And then Giles is smiling and says, good. I mean, it's just really sexy and very, very, very heartbreaking in light of what follows. But there's like a lustful gentleness to that moment. That is powerful. I know that you knew going into this episode, or maybe at least in this stretch that something didn't even was going to happen. And what you described to me, I don't think this made it into like the, because poor Carlos had to cut down like a 19 minute conversation into a minute to go on social media. But like, you were saying like, oh, at first you're like, oh, no, she's going to, oh, no, they're going to have sex.

Oh, no, she is going to die. You know, you like really vacillated. But they dangled the idea of Giles and Jenny consubating. Yeah. They dangled and that's not where she dangles it from. That's not where she dangles it. But this is what Joss does, right? Jenny and Giles almost reconcile and then she dies.

Angel comes back and Buffy has to kill him anyway. Just how much butter and lemon juice can I squeeze in the wound of these twists and turns? Very painful. Giles talking about the book with the werewolves was also very horny to me. That's so funny. I must admit, I am intrigued. Werewolves. It's one of the classics.

I'm sure my books and I are in for a fascinating afternoon. My most dad moment. That felt very dad to me, but... I found it sexy. And I support you in that. Okay. Best use of Jonathan, I actually feel like it's impossible to choose because he's only in two episodes and they're two absolutely iconic moments. Yeah.

There's when he shows up at the library and says, we're supposed to get some books on Stalin. Does this look like a Barnes & Noble? Zander's affronted that people are in the library trying to get books. Great stuff. Great stuff. And then and then they like leave. and then he comes back, he's like, did you say the, and then they're gone. Amazing.

But also, in your favorite episode, Go Fish, Jonathan pisses in the pool in revenge for being bullied, and we watched Xander just dive face first into it. Public pools, you have to assume people are peeing in them, and you just hope that the chlorine and chemical treatments are doing the work. But here's my question for you. First of all, I also loved in Go Fish when my pick is the books on Sal and Barnes & Noble one, but yes, you're right, it's kind of a tie.

Before the peed in the pool reveal, we get the, I'm asthmatic, I couldn't keep up, which as an asthmatic I really related to and enjoyed. Jonathan says he did this yesterday. He walked in and just stood there and pissed into the pool. Like, this wasn't a, I'm swimming and peed in the pool. He went and just whipped out his dick and pissed in the pool. Revenge of the nerds, man. Sheesh. Most 1998 thing.

Yeah. This was so easy to me. Is it the floppy disk? Of course! But there are other contenders. I have the sound of the dot matrix printer going when Angel walks in. Yeah. Yeah.

I have, you just went O.J. on your girlfriend. That's my runner up. You just went O.J. on your girlfriend is so 90s. I mean, unbelievable. And there's also a Dr. Laura reference, which fell very late 90s. There's a lot of, like, this is. I mean, even just like Gage has his game boy in his hand, et cetera. But so mine is, yeah, floppy disk and just in general, the, like, tech in that scene and how it's treated because.

And how Angel doesn't understand that he needs to destroy the tower as well as the monitor. It's just so Zoolander, like, in the computer. Well, he starts a fire, and then he feeds the paper into the fire. And I'm like, but you forgot the two most important parts. It's the tower and also the floppy. It's great. Like, the way he talks about computers, it's a miracle to me. You put the secrets to me.

storing my soul in here and it comes out here incredible and very like you are 240 some years old but also this is 98 and still like technology yeah but the floppy saving the translation on the disc and then the disc being the exact shape and size and thinness to fall through the cracks of the desk to be discovered later sensational When Buffy drops her pencil and picks it up without getting the disc the first time, were you like in agony? You're like, it's right there? I was not anticipating that she would then immediately say deja vu.

Drop the pencil. Yeah. Jalz's most dad moment. I mentioned the werewolves. We'rewolves, one of the classics. But also, Ian, I only advise for you when he thinks it's Jenny's ghost, right? And the kids are gently trying to argue with him. And he's like, you should always question authority.

That's great. except of course in this instance where I'm clearly right and you are clearly wrong. Great one. Pulling out the dad's stuff. What do you have here? I have a clip here, actually. Wonderful. Forgiveness is impossible.

Good. It doesn't deserve it. To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it. I love that moment, that line, that idea. Like I already said, Task Hive rise, you know, Tom Brandis and Giles win. That's so interesting that that's in here because he's basically doing the quality of mercy speech from Merchant of Venice.

But there's a line in this season where Xander says the quality of mercy is not Buffy. That's right. It was extra potent, I think, for me to confront this in the same year that we just covered last of us season two. And genuinely just having watched task and thought about this so much recently. But it's like, you know, I don't think I can ever forgive you, but I would like to try, right? Like the role that forgiveness plays in our lives and our relationships. And I just think, that's like a, that's a watcher thing. But it is very like, I care about you.

Yeah. And I care about helping you confront the hard parts of life. And I, in this stretch of episodes, Giles, do not know how to actually do this. Like, I'm offering you counsel that I'm not able to heed. but part of my responsibility as like a guardian is to help impart these lessons and hope that in time you will be able to like find your own way, your own path to following them was very just like dad. Dad in a sweet way to me and then my runner up is a more dad comedy to me, which is also from that was from what I only advise for you. My runner up is another pick from passion when well it's like, you know, that they had, you know, You do know, right? Oh, yeah, sorry. Oh, good, because I just realized it being a librarian all.

You maybe didn't know, and he's like, no, thank you. No, thank you. I got it. Very dad. Very good. Very good. Most daddy moment. I hate to repeat the violence motif.

Same, but I have to. But it's him walking into the factory with the Molotov cocktail, et cetera. This was hot. That was very good. All of it, very, very hot. but the lighting the Yeah, when he likes the torch. Oh my God.

Lighting the torch. It's like, it's funny because I feel like I have like a very clear idea of what Giles is like in bed. Okay. Very tender. Very giving. Very generous. But I like knowing. Can take control when he needs to.

There's a change of pace. Every so often as well. You know what I mean? Kind of a similar energy, I guess, actually. Also for my, I only have eyes for you. when he just tackles John Hawks. Remember, how long ago was it when there was that bit, the really popular meme of like,

run me over with your car. Like, you remember this moment on the internet? I was like, I don't really get this meme. But I feel like this would have been a real, like, tackle me in the hall with a daddy. Tackle me with your librarian. Kind of thing. And then obviously just like,

even though it is such a desperately sad, the setting in which to see it. That little jungle, a chest tear. I loved it. Oh, my God. I might remove this category going forward. I don't know if we can have both Horniest Moment and Daddy. Maybe we need to follow it.

Will I be lucky enough to have Giles picks and Horniest Moment moving forward? Good question. I still get, I mentioned this in season one that I had a little bit of a Joyce Giles, like, vibe. And even though I'm, you know, so swept up in the Jenny Giles, it all. I once again, when Joyce went out of her way to comfort him about Jenny at the hospital, I had a moment where I'm like, could there be something here one day? So maybe I will have opportunity. I just, I mean, I hope I get to see Giles fuck someone at some point. If not, that's what the old imagination is for. That's what fan fiction is for me. Is there a lot of Giles

fanfic? Yeah, but don't Google it yet. I can either, I mean, of course, yeah. Is there any of that would be safe for me to explore now? After season three, I'll send you something. I'm exciting. Okay. Best guest star. Who do you have here? I mean, we mentioned Chris Gorman. We mentioned Marisol, John Hawks, Bola, Wentworth Miller. Shane West has a little baby, little baby Shane West and Go Fish also there. That's right. I really like Max Perlick as Whistler. Yeah. You know, he's a guy, this is a real time for him to just show up and like he was unjustified. He and Gilmore Girls. Like, he would show up for, like, several episodes stretch.

He's in our boss Jeff's favorite movie, Maverick. Like, he's just been around. I also want to shout out, I mean, Willie Garson, the late Willie Garson, who played Stanford Blatch on Sex and the City shows up in the worst episode, killed by death, as a security guard. So it's just, like, always nice to see these, like, that guys inside of this show. What is your picture? I don't know if he's, like, too, he's,

too much of a like kind of just like figure in the sunnydale school scenes to count but i was i wanted to toast larry especially because i think it's a nice transition into the next category probably um but yeah like this this journey from sexist jock bully the the uh single entendre clip that you already played when we were toasting oz into the um he has a secret but it's not that he's a werewolf Larry Zander moment and the oh wow I said it and it felt okay and I have to say

Larry Zander's a bit no homo about that but not as much as you would expect the late 90s like when you watch friends and you're like Chandler bang Jesus Christ you know what I mean like there's some like yeah

it's not perfect but it's not as bad as sometimes I think I'm bracing for when he's uncomfortable but he's not like shitty about it And he keeps a secret, too. Yes. He doesn't share it with other people.

So on that note, best high school is hell metaphor. Buffy coming out to Joyce. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, have you tried not being this later? Joyce says, to Buffy. This is my pick as well. How can it not be? Yeah.

I think like really both of those Joyce Buffy scenes, you know, because they're both like the will my parents accept me, right? You know, will I still be their baby, their kid? like, can they show me? And from the parents' perspective, like, can I, can I show that I care while also, like. To your point about Xander, I like that Joyce makes this, you know, and Buffy's have another drink mom and Joyce just like saying, don't say that to me. You know, like losing her shit. Yeah.

Yes, yes. It's, again, we talked about this early in the season when we talked about the dark age, this idea of this time in life when you find out that your parents are just people. Yes. You know what I mean? And so Joyce, like, doing her best to wrap her head around this, like, yeah, deeply unbelievable thing. And not doing it well. Right. And having to confront a note and an empty closet when she goes into Buffy's room at the end of, you know, she goes, she's clearly woken up and she's like, Buffy.

You know what I mean? In, like, a tender way of, like, let's reconcile, you know. And it's too late. She's gone. Yeah. Yeah. I was affected. by the joyce buffy stuff in the finale in particular.

And like to that queer coding point and the, yeah, like, have you tried not being the slayer point? The fact that choice is worried and concerned, like, I'm afraid. But ultimately, like, where the snuts out is I'm not able to give you what you need, right? I'm not able to give you what you need. I don't understand this. I don't accept who you are. Like, a core part of who you are. It was just very, very, very intense and upsetting.

Wild swing to cringiest low-budget moment. I do. So I have a couple, like, runners up. I think the hormonal stuff in phases is good. Very, like, Spider-Man-esque, right? Like, you know, I'm changing. Teen-wolf, you know. It's a very teen wolf.

That's actually my, spoiler, my pick for the next category. Oh. And then I do like in passion. Love potion when Joyce says, don't tell me, he's changed. He's not the same guy you fell for. I really like that as a lampshading of like, we know we're doing this really big, obvious metaphor, the one that we talked about last time. But, you know, just sort of like lampshading it a bit. Yeah.

Yeah. That's great. The lot of stuff, like the sports star clear out stuff. the love everything with the love potion like the way that you could go oh I nobody pays attention to me I'm going to make them pay attention to me everybody's paying attention to me that was clever this was where I was also as a runner up gonna hit you've hit it already but like the that's ander willow scene I thought that the um who am I going to call every night and talk about everything we did all day really like really got me it's really really got me it's really

really good. Yeah. And like, I I was, I just really wish that I could read that in a purely platonic space. And if I could, then it's like really beautiful. Yeah, certainly, certainly I did not read it in a purely platonic way. Like, I, I think that there's, we've been talking about this a lot with our Stranger Things pods and like that aspect

of a coming of age story and like inside of a friend group and this, the shifting dynamics. And yeah, who is interested in who when and like, when do they realize it or are they actually or is it jealousy or like, what is driving that? But this idea of like, you know, Willow spending all of her, all of those precious moments wanting something that Zander was not receiving, let alone reciprocating. And then for Zander to have this moment, like, the way that, who am I going

to call every night and talk about everything we did all day sums up the pureness of their friendship and just their kind of constant nature of their presence in each other's lives. Yeah. Another issue I have with that, can I just say, is that everything he says, is about how it's going to affect him. He's a very self-involved. He's a teenage boy, so like it's normal, but I'm just not like enchanted by it because he's just sort of like, what am I going to do? Yes, totally.

But this felt very like coming of age, misconnection. Do I love my best friend? Do they love me? How do I feel about that? Yeah. And like there are versions of that story that is absolute catnip to me inside of a teen drama. I just, my Xander. feelings are.

Cringes, low budget moment. The Teen Wolf Werewolf. It has to be. It's so minor league, like, minor league baseball mascot to me. I don't know why that wasn't my pick because there's the Dirkinderstatt eyes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And also the swarm and I only have eyes for you.

The swarm's a really good. That's a good pick. Pretty tough. That's a good pick. We both have clips for this next category. The most okay. I get it. Spike moment. Kick us off.

Kick us off. We've already kind of talked about this scene, but I just would like to see it. Carlos, we play my clip, please. What, your mom doesn't know? Know what? That I'm in a band. A rock band with Spike here. Right.

She plays the triangle. Drums. Drums, yeah. She's a hell on the old skins, you know? And what do you do? Willis sing. Incredible. Will I sing.

Well, I have a runner-up bed in case it's your clip. Okay, so this was, this might be the first time I've ever done this. I had, I asked Carlos to prep two clips for me. I have 10 contenders this time. Limited myself to 10 instead of 20. At last pop was 20, I think this is an exercise and act of real restraint and growth. I support. Thank you.

But even inside the 10, I was like, we need two clips ready because surely one will come up already. And I didn't pick either. No, but we do. did, you did quote it earlier. So now I'm glad I have the other clip ready. And then I will say, as I read through the 10, what the other clip was. So Carlos, can we hear Spike Clip number two?

Oh, angel. It's fairyland. It's paradise. Big windows, lovely gardens. That'll be perfect when we want the sunlight to kill us. I just thought that was exquisite. He's so good. Absolutely exceptional. Okay, rapid fire here are the 10. From episode 16. Spike says,

Why don't you rip her lungs out? Might make an impression. Angela says, it lacks poetry. And Spike says, doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs? Remarkable. Passion. Spike says to Angel, are you insane? We're supposed to kill the bitch, not leave gag gifts in her friend's beds. Drew says, but Spike, the bad teacher was going to restore Angel's soul. And Spike says, what if she did? If you ask me, I find myself preferring the old Buffy whipped Angelus. The new improved one is not playing with a full sack. Tough feedback from Spike there. I only have eyes for you. That was the clip we just heard. Incredible. And then Spike has another nominee from that episode. As Angel is like scrubbing himself raw after the encounter with

Buffy. Spike says, you might want to let up. They say when you've drawn blood, you've exfoliates. It's a really good one. Unbelievable. Becoming part one. This was great. This really made me laugh when Angel says, because Drew is talking and saying, and Angel's like, you can see all that in your head and then Spike hands over with a paper and says, no, you ninny. She's running paper. Incredible.

Spike has two more, just gets two more barbs in that I loved here on Angel. Let me guess. Someone pulls out the sword. Stripping with like, you basic bitch derision here. And then I love the sing-song voice of like, someone was worthy. Call back to someone's in the ceiling. Incredible.

And then in Becoming Part 2, Hello Cutie. Hello, cutie. Felt to me instantly iconic. I assume it is iconic. And then so here was my other clip that Carlos had prepared, and this was clip number one. It is actually my pick, even though we played clip number two. This is like in the running for like all time.

Joyce and Spike? Billions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. Yeah. Billions of people. Truth is I like this world. You've got dog racing, Manchester United, and you've got people. Like the wistful way he said, people. Billions of people walking around like happy mills with legs, it's all right here.

Unbelievable. And then I quite liked when Angel is torturing Giles and Spike says, because he is is, you know, trying to save him. Yeah. You have your way with him. You'll never get to destroy the world. And I don't fancy spending the next month trying to get librarian out of the carpet. Fantastic stuff.

Thank you. You think that Jenny would have had to spend a month Jenny and Giles getting librarian out of the carpet if they've gotten to... You're a very special person. They've gotten to go a few rounds. You're a very special person. I think he has hardwood floors. God, yeah, easy cleanup. Speaking of easy cleanup, most creative kill.

So I cheated, but this is where I was going to celebrate and toast something you've already appropriately honored, a kill of a different sort. Sorry, you'll change the locks. Really good. Holy shit. Amazing. Really good. I'm going to give Xander a moment. And when he, uh,

in phases when he uses the funeral sort of easel that's yes to stab teresa who's on top of buffy yes um very pointy pointy pointy easel very pointy very pointy um and then they have a weird moment which i didn't like um yeah and i also say buffy at one point uh is ready with the chopstick in her hair she pulls a chopstick out of her hair and poses with it is ready to stake she doesn't use it but she's ready and i like that for her so Incredible. All right, we just have funniest moment and emotional moment left. And I've already said what my most emotional moment is.

So, yeah, I'm ready to laugh. And then cry when you tell me what your most emotional moment is. All right, what do you have in funniest moments? It's the thrill of my life to tell you that I will be returning to the modern classic go fish. Yeah. I have a clip. Carlos, can we see this? And we can still date.

Or not. I mean, I understand if you want to see other fish. I'll do everything I can to make your quality of life better. Whether that means little bath toys or whatever. That's not me. I'm sorry, whether that means little bath toys or whatever. The way that the score gets all like sentimental as she says it, incredibly good. You were so courageous.

You looked really hot and you were speed us. high high comedy there's a lot of funny moments in the stretch of episodes but that was like that killed you that just killed me yeah i was i was in stitches what's your pick here um i have a couple things zander talking about how boring the sauna is just made me think of bill and his uh as he loves to talk about on mic so i'm not blowing up his spot or anything like that his fondness for a sauna show so if only uh ipads existed in the late 90s zaner zaner could watch a succession which doesn't exist yet

while he's in the zana. This is not fun, but this was like a real like how TV is made learning moment I have in, I only advise for you. Yeah. Right before Cordelia said this thing about like over-identify much.

Yeah. They're at Buffy's house. They're having snacks. Chris McArpenter. Yeah. He's taking the tiniest little mice nibbles on the corner of all saltine.

She goes back to the same corner, like multiple. She is eating a crumb at a time. And I was so, like, baffled by that until I learned later that, like, you know, for continuity, like, if you do a scene over and over again and you take, like, you eat a full cracker, you have to eat that full cracker again. So, so Chrysma Carpenter, whether it's, like, her being carb conscious or just sort of like, I don't want to eat 90saltines is like, I'm going to mouse nibble the corner of this one cracker for like an entire scene. It distracts me every time. It's a really good scene. Then I can get like focus on the saltine. And I only have eyes for you.

Yeah. The locker monster, lockness monster. Very good. Very, very, very good. Yeah. You already mentioned Angels nails a puppy too. Skip it. I don't have a puppy.

Skip it. Yeah. The noise Jenny makes when Giles pulls her away from Xander. She's like a, oh. That's very good. It's really funny. Very good. And then I just want to call out this.

They're all making pop culture references all the time. And in the style of, like, clever people writing for teenagers, they're making pop culture references that, like, they have no business making. But I want to continue to track Zander Harris' film Buff and point out that he says, and killed by death, he says, don't play chess with death. So he loves a seventh seal. He says, I'm dead as hell. I'm not going to take it anymore.

So he loves network. And the quality of mercy is not buffy. He loves Shakespeare. So Zander Harris, a well-read, well-watched man. And I'm just going to make this an ongoing track. Would Zander be a good podcaster? I think it would be. In the Manosphere, maybe.

Well, a lot of listeners out there. A lot of listeners out there. I'll also toss out as a runner when in that stretch and killed by death, which did get reflected on our runners up a few times here. Der Kindershot got a name drop. I got a kid out of Ryan mailing the drawing, too, and it's like Buffy having that's not. by nominee, but when Giles and Cordelia are paired off,

and Giles is just so like, Why do I have to be annoyed about it? And Cordelia is asking all these questions about the demons and the demons and the demons, and then Giles finally loses his patience and snaps and says, it has endless questions of those with whom it's supposed to be working so that nothing is getting done. And Cordelia says, boy, there's a demon for everything. Very good. Yeah, and underrated pairing.

Oh, man. Angelis. Very good. But yeah, I think my official runner-up to my actual pick, which was Go-Fish, would be Joyce and Spike sitting together in the living room, which is genius. Absolutely genius. Okay. My emotional moment. And I will say, I only have eyes for you, like, when I was a teenager, really wanting Buffy and Angel to get back together that did absolutely, like, wreck me. And I often cite this incorrectly, but now I will cite it correctly. This is the episode. I only have eyes for you is the episode that convinced Joss Whedon that Angel should have his own spinoff. He says, quote, I watched David very emotionally, unabashedly, and poetically playing a woman.

In that moment, I said, this guy can anchor a show. I always thought it was a season three episode, but it's this episode, I guess. So all of that is to say, that's not my pick. It is a clip that sometimes I just watch on YouTube. It is iconic for a reason. Let's see it. Close your eyes. Could that be

cringy's low budget moment, maybe? But I never pay attention to the Akathola Vortex because Borana's and Sarah Michelle Geller are so good. The hand outreach that he gives to her

her face when it's over. She's so good. Yeah. Close your eyes, the kiss, the stab, the hand reach. Buffy.

And it's all over. Buffy. Really, really good. That's one of my runners-up. That's an amazing moment. I mean, it's incredible. It's incredible. She sends her boyfriend to hell.

She sends her boyfriend to hell. It's a tough beat. It's a tough beat. There are so many emotional moments in this season and in these episodes. Like, we've put so many of them in other categories, but this category alone could have been like 50 deep. I mean, it is a raw, deeply impactful and moving stretch of story. He loves it.

Everything with Jenny's death and passion and then after that, all of the lingering effects. You know what actually really got me on the emotional moment? moments, like in the wake front, a little moment, when Willow finds the rose quartz, she would want you to have it. It says she would want you to have it. And also the way that she tells Giles, it's a healing quartz, like the healing powers. Ugh, that really, really got me.

I had, for runners up, what you have mentioned, the Giles, Jenny would never be this mean. I know it's not her, is it? And like, as we've talked about it and with the Drew Giles, seeing the Jenny, I thought I'd lost you. But my pick, as previous mentioned, is from Passion. It's the, are you trying to get yourself killed?

You can't leave me. I can't do this alone. Which we've talked about already. I had it as a clip if we want to watch it and just cry again. We can. Let's watch it. Why did you come here?

This wasn't your fight. Are you trying to get yourself killed? I can't do this alone. I'm kind of sob. I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite when I was like, Zander was just sort of like, you can't leave me. I can't do this alone.

I'm like Bowen Buffy does it. So I'll own that. Oh, man. But anyway. These characters need each other. Season two. Fuck. Oh,

really good. We did it. Damn. I, I'm, I'm, how do you feel? So,

like, if you enjoyed season one. Yeah. But if you were to sort of, like, great season one now having seen season two, like, do you feel like the claim of a jumping quality is accurate?

Oh, yeah. No question. And again, I think, like, like we talked about in season one, I think part of why I was able to like really just say, I'm having a blast

because that was out there for me already that like season two and three you're getting into like a just a different caliber of story. Yeah, like the, there's some really good stuff at the beginning of season two as well, but from surprise on.

You're just in a, you're in a different echelon of, of Buffy, of TV, of genre story. Like you can feel that this is where it gets to be like a thing that so many people cite is this like seminal text in their life. And we've already mentioned like a couple things that you're, you're intrigued about like the vast Sunnydale conspiracy.

You're curious about how long will, like, when will Buffy come back? Spike and Drew? Will Angel come back? Yeah. Will we see Spike and Drew again? Yeah, he's like, you won't see us again. I know that's not true. But for how long?

I mean, I hope I don't have to be long. Any other questions you have for theories or any? We did get a call for The Theory Corner with Malve. But, like, I actually don't want to spend too long here because you're very good at this, actually. Like, you don't, you're not as obsessed with it as I am. But when you put your story brain on, you usually figure out what I'm trying not to tell you about things. Yeah. I try not to, like, actively theorize too much about something I know I have the opportunity to watch immediately.

Yeah. Versus, like, something we're covering in real time that's airing weekly or, like, you know, a book in a series came out and I'm going to wait two years for the next one. And all I'm going to do is, like, fill your time. trying to figure it out. But if the theory occurs to me at some point, I certainly, I will share it. Yeah, I just, I'm like, how long, that moment that we got with Giles and Willow and Zander and Cordelia without Buffy at the end. And just like, a quick beat to remind us.

And us. I apologize, Oz. They don't know. With Buffy and Angel. And like, so what is their experience like for however long Buffy? is gone, are there going to be other characters in the Sunnydale story set? Like, if Buffy is off on her own for anything more than like an episode, right? Like, if that is a stretch of story, then are we with our Scoobies as we know them?

Or do they have new experiences? They should have new experiences without Buffy. That should be a thing that happens that I would expect to happen based on the way the show conducts itself and behaves. And then, like, what is that? that like when Buffy comes back to find that, like, part of what happens when you go live your life without other people is that they live their life without you. Like, I'm really fascinated to see what, what that is like. I would say I know, like, nothing about season three. I feel like I

know some stuff about later. Would you rather, I mean, I'm obviously not going to, would you rather know nothing, nothing, nothing? Can I give you what I hope is like a tantalizing tease? Tell me. Is it, does Giles have sex in season three? A slayer died in the finale. Oh, so thank you for saying this. So this was my question. It would have been weird if we didn't talk about this. Would have been weird if we did.

Right. So my assumption, my question was going to be, is there a loophole inside of the loophole where like the cosmic forces that dictate this are like, okay, well, Kendra has died. But we sense that there is an active slayer because Buffy is still here. So we are not. Or is it like Kendra died and now there's another. new Slayer. And if so, is that person also drawn to the Hellmouth and in... Here's my follow-up question for you. Yeah. Do you think the writers of Buffy Vampire Slayer

would be able to resist? No, probably not. Adding another Slayer to the Vicks. Probably not. No, my expectation is that there will be another slayer. I will say, I have asked very few questions of you or Adam because I don't want to put you guys in the position where you have to, like, mask your faces you're talking about. I did a lot of masking in this episode. I know. I try. I felt like there were a couple moments, but you did, you did very well. I did ask Adam this. I asked as soon as Kendra died. I paused and I was like, so is there a new slayer? Mm-hmm. He did, I couldn't, in his defense, I can't tell if he's genuinely like, I'm like pretty old now. I can't remember things or if he was just like, oh no, but he was like, um, um. He was deep. DeVis.

lying to you. Shout out Adam for trying to preserve the mystery, but no, Adam knows what's coming. So, oh God,

I can't wait to watch season three. As you know, I have family coming into town so I won't be able to start it immediately. Second they're on a plane.

Great. Bye. The second they're back on a plane to Baltimore, I will be diving into season three. Okay. The second they're back

on a plane to Baltimore, I will be re-watching Stranger Things season four. And then. And then I will be diving into season three. Thank you to everyone. for all the work that was done this week.

We did three sort of marathon episodes. We did three meaty. We did three girthy pods. Guess what? I had a blast. Thank you to Arjuna Rangipal. Thank you to Carlos Chiroboga. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely's here today.

Wonderful. Thank you to Jomey a dinner on the social. And we'll be back with Stranger Things soon. Can't wait. Bye. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th,

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