House of R - ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 3 Rewatch (Part 2)

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

Mal and Jo are finally back in the Hellmouth! They continue their ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ rewatch with the second half of Season 3!  They talk about the best fights, most dated moments, the best fits, horniest moments, and more!(00:00) Intro(03:08) Mailbag(05:52) Opening Snapshot(01:11:13) SuperlativesHosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna RobinsonProducer: Carlos ChiribogaSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to a much anticipated House of Our. I'm Joyna Robinson. That is Mallory Rubin. And even though the skies have opened up today and it is flooding in Los Angeles and even though HBO dropped a House of the Dragon trailer on us on our heads this week, we are staying firm to our commitment to deliver to you Buffy Season 3, Part 2, long awaited. Right after this. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut. gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice

a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it. coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients, zero shortcuts, everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken, garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. Molly Rubin. Yes, reliable dog geyser person, reliable dog

geyser person. Just like Willow. Do you want to show for the folks who are watching this podcast? Yeah. Do you want to show them your shirt? Oh, yeah. Let's see. Got my water in the way here. Yeah.

I've got my Sunnydale shirt. Hanukkah present from my husband. Wonderful stuff. I had the Giles shirt last go around. So my Buffy wardrobe is growing. Consider doing an entire pod with a Jansport backpack on my back. But it doesn't seem comfortable, but we do have them here with us today. We all have Jansports here today because you brought us gifts, Jansport gifts.

As we say goodbye to high schools, as we say goodbye to Sunnydale High. In the 90s. I'm glad you're representing the Razorbacks. You've got the canonical Sunnydale High red. I have a deeply non-canonical red on, but we're still honoring the spirit of Buffy. And her most iconic look ever happens in the finale of this season when we get the red leather pants and the black tig top. That is like the Buffy look. We're going to talk about all of that.

But first, before we get into all of the Buffy goodness that is waiting for us. Yes. What else is going on in the feed right now? Just a few things. Oh, boy. Well, we are nearing the end of the wonderful season of television in the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. So we will be with CR with Chris Ryan

for the season finale of Talk to Thrones on Sunday night right after episode six of a night of the Seven Kingdoms. We're going to be back for Talk to Thrones in mere months because Hot D. is coming in June, June. And then after Talk the Thrones on Sunday night, we will be back for our season finale Deep dive on Tuesday evening as usual. And then we will be going through the House of the Dragon trailer next Wednesday.

We'll probably hit it for a minute. On Talk of Thrones. Just maybe like a favorite glimpse or takeaway for each of us. But if you're like TikTok, where is the House of the Dragon trailer deep dive? We've got a finale to cover. It's coming next week. Yeah. And we will turn the page and we'll look ahead to season three.

We have pushed some plans off just so that we can cover the Hot D trailer. It's all happening. We are wrapping up the Buffy rewatch of season three. Yes. Season four question mark, who's to say? It'll come when it comes. I'm excited that I get to start watching season four soon. We're going to go to college. It's going to be very exciting. But today we are covering season three, episode 13, The Zepo through episode 22, graduation day, part two. So if you're like, what about the rest of season three? We already did it. You can find it in the feed. So that exists.

All right. So can I hit you with some mailback stuff really quickly before we get into it all? That'd be great, please. Several people, several of the best, Bad Babies are very urgently want you to know that Anthony Stewarthead, who plays Giles, have you heard of him, was in a series of Nescafe gold blend commercials? Will you tell the bad babies that I'm a good friend and I made sure that you saw these? Early days when the lust, love and longing for Giles was in full bloom. You brought this to my attention. And so it's definitely one of those things were like, it seemed familiar. I had clearly seen these on TV when I was younger, but it was a whole new journey of discovery now that Giles is such a formative love in my life.

And part of what was really fun was you sent this on our group chat with Mahoney. Yes. Rob had not seen this together. It was just an absolute joy. Yeah, I got to experience it. Very powerful. If you've never seen the Nescafe Goldblend commercials, it's like a whole soap opera that unfolded over years. Many hairstyles. Of these Nescafe commercials where these neighbors basically have a meat, cute,

and fall and go through the ups and downs of a relationship over coffee. You know, given Giles' as canonical opinion on coffee reinforced in these episodes, it's an interesting twist. Sometimes you don't want to be soothed.

Sometimes you want to be high-strung. Exactly. You got to have some coffee. How will you ever thank me, I'll think, is something just one of the great moments in commercial history. So very powerful.

I'd recommend them to anybody who's not seen them, you know? If you don't have a friend like Joanna who brings them to your attention, then you have a podcast with Joanna to bring them to your attention. But I'm so glad that the bad babies really wanted to make sure, but please give me some credit. I, of course, showed Mallory the commercials. And it's a quick mailbag because we have a lot to get to. Jay wrote in to say, for the sake of brevity and not going off on tangents, I'll say that while Joe and her friend's term of boob window, this is for Faith's very iconic shirt that she first appears in,

term of boob window does a trick. I've always loved that my wife and her friends describe their Faith Esquire as shirts from university as the early odds as a pika boob. No, no, it's peeka boob. Pretty good. Excellent.

Carlos, once again, sitting three and a half feet away from us. Far more comfortable territory, we should hope. Though you will be talking about giles at length. Carlos also is a huge fan of this back, like he loves this season. I think he lives the back half more than thing. So I think this is like, Carlos, is that right, that this is like the best that Buffy gets as far as you're concerned? Maybe season five. All right, that's right. That's right. Okay.

He's a pro. Always knows how to spin forward. Tease it forward. Keep it ongoing. All right. Should we go now to our snapshot? Let's do it. So Buffy season three, September 1998 to July 1999, with an asterisk, right? Because two episodes that crop up at the end of the season, earshot and graduation part, Graduation Day part two were both postponed because right around this time was when the Columbine High School shooting happened. For earshot, it was like the very same week. And we lived in a different time where this felt like a rare and shocking occurrence in our nation, dare I say, a better, more innocent time when we would take a pause for weeks at a time and consider what media we're consuming in proximity to this.

But whenever I think about Buffy season three in 1999, I always think of this as just like an really, I don't know, impactful moment and collision of storytelling and the world. Where were you in 98 into 99? Middle school. Middle school. Yeah, I was 12, I guess. Born in 86. So if that math checks out, it was in eighth grade. You're not a mathematician.

Not a mathematician. addition added to the list. But yeah, so I had, this was a surprise to me to learn this and to learn about the shifting of the episodes and to see where they fell in time. That's not something that I have any memory of being aware of in real time. But then to know it and then watch the episode for the first time, harrowing, obviously given just the plot lines and aspects of the episodes that hinge around those events. But even the fact that, you know, it's incorporated into the dialogue.

Like, it says, oh, this is borderline. I'm trendy at this point. And then, you know, you think of the fact that that episode had to be delayed and pulled. It's, yeah, I had no idea. None. Earshot was delayed all the way until the fall. Graduation Day, part two. So part two of the season finale, which pushed into July.

But it premiered elsewhere in the world. So it, like, existed. And Torrance weren't very much a thing at the time. But they weren't not. Right. So I was a babe in the woods and did not understand that that was available and possible. But certainly some people found pirated versions of the Buffy finale before it finally aired in the U.S. But that's just like an interesting fact.

You were 12 at the time, around 12 at the time, if your math is correct. That means you were far away from your transition from high school into college. But having gone through that process, Mallory, do you have any notes or questions or comments concerns for the way that our pals at Sunnydale High deal with the SAT? college graduation, admissions, et cetera, et cetera. I thought you were going to ask, where was I in terms of my exposure to message boards and how would I have found out that the most important hookup in the history of television, Giles and Joyce,

was in fact confirmed in earshot and presumably discussed on some corner of the internet. I, like Carlos, love the stretch. Season 3 is my favorite season so far. I think what I said last pot in our first part of season three still holds, I think, you know, the highest highs of a couple of the episodes in season two, Innocence, Passion, et cetera, stand out on equal footing, but just start to finish overall. I think the season is extraordinary, and this back half was my favorite part as well,

even though the front half of season three includes, I think, my favorite episodes of season three. This is a rare blight on an otherwise wonderful and historic text. We talked last pod in the season three part one discussion about but the astonishing reveal that Buffy, character I love and admire, had gotten a 1430 on her SATs. The thing that, frankly, does not seem possible.

But let me tell you what's even less credible than that. Buffy Summers, who had to beg her way back into high school, and then couldn't get a teacher and knew her well, like, who even knew her and could say for sure, you were in my class. Has, as far as I can tell, no extracurriculars. I mean, she's busy. We understand.

But climbs out of windows in the middle of class. Yeah. Got into Northwestern, one of the best schools in the country. I was in tears from laughing so hard. I didn't think I would be able to, like, recover my focus. Just incredible stuff. The plot mechanics in general to get everybody toward a UC-Sense. Sunnydale outcome, I respect and admire.

Oh, yeah. You admire the hustle. That's great work. That's just great work. Classic Beverly Hills and 201. Herdealia's dad has wound up and broiled in a tax scandal so she can't afford to go to other school. She's, I guess, going to end up there, right?

Zander thought he was going to get his rejection letter and crayon. Oz is like, guess what? They're typing them now. Everybody's got something new they've learned. Willow has her big epiphany that she wants to help the world and do it right here. Joyce having her moment of, I got to call up your aunt who lives in Chicago to tell her you might be heading to Northwestern. It's like, I just can't believe that was a real thing that happened. I do like the other buffy, though,

what it leads to, just the whole college admissions plot, which is like on the heels of, you know, something that I loved in the first half of season three was the, I can't be just a person, I can't be helpless, like that aspect of helpless. And the other side of this, like, I can't just be a slayer. I have to go be a person. I have to go to college. I might want to leave this town. I might want to get off the hell mouth. Wonderful. And in general, the path toward graduation of a different sort, rejecting the council, forging her own path.

I just thought it was like incredibly rewarding to watch as a coming of age story. So 1430 to Northwestern, absolutely not. Everything else in a larger sense, thematically, just gorgeous. Great. This is wonderful. I did get a kick, as I mentioned already,

out of the Xander, Oxford, Oxnard. Yeah. After Sean. Sean made that same real life moment with Sean on the hype draft. That was very, very satisfying. On the sort of theme of identity, which we hit a lot in part one, because if we can stretch our minds back far enough to the season three premiere, there's the key moment in the season three premiere where an antagonist asked Buffy, like, who are you?

And she says, for the first time, I'm Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right? But this question of, who are you echoes throughout the whole season. very key as a coming of age, as, you know, 18-year-olds on the cusp of a kind of adulthood. I would argue we still have more road to take before we become full-blown adults. But, you know, this is a key. I'm still working on it on 39. The road goes ever on, you know what I mean? But your hair looks so good today.

Thank you. I'm sorry. It's just like. Stunning. Stunning. Oh, it's done it. It's pouring rain outside. So, like, we had to, like, go straight today.

Oh, looks beautiful. Carry on. Sorry. That the frizz. You just had to get that on the record. Thank you. My God. But this, so this question of identity and these doubles, these doppelgangers, double gangers, double gang land, of course we will talk about in this stretch, etc.

But these dual pairings of characters. We might need to give Carlos a mic for that one. Oh, yeah. He loves vampire willow. He sure does. It's true. But we need to talk about Wesley. Wesley Windham Price.

Thinking of some things that have not aged particularly well, maybe out of this. But the introduction of Wesley, the first evil, faith, Anya, expansion of Jonathan, have seismic repercussions for the rest of Buffy's stories. No other season I would argue is as impactful as season three of Buffy Vampire Slayer in terms of like the things it sets up to come. Okay. But Wesley Windham Price, what is your first impression? Here comes Alexis Denisoff to join the ranks. Were you familiar with him at all? I think so.

He's a real Whedon guy. He married Allison Hanigan out of this, and they've got an adorable family. Delightful. He's around the Weedomverse for a while, but this is like kind of your introduction to him. Yeah, I think so. Got a kick out of, of course, the Giles' Next Generation. Framing, very amusing. And then I really appreciated and enjoyed how quickly that is undermined as a framing, right?

Giles is the next generation. Frankly, how dare you, right? He might have the accent. He might have the council association, the glasses, the suit. But the fact that he is coming in on the heels of Giles' ousting from the council. and the way that he tries so immediately to insert himself and to assert his authority and his control, I got like a real kick out of the, well, you know, like, let me take you through all of the field experience that I have.

Okay, we're done. You know, like he hasn't been in it, and yet he is emboldened to think that he's in charge. So just right away the instant dislike that I felt for him because he has like, even though Giles made a deliberate choice at the, the, the, the, good point to stand up to the council and choose Buffy over the council, it's still like you are here at the expense of this person and this thing and you are interfering with our family, with our Scooby. So right away, you're on edge. Then he's just such a clown, right? Like, he just says such a clown and has no idea what he's doing. It is like real like amateur hour.

One of my favorite television episode titles of all time, shit show at the fuck factory early succession stuff. That's really like, that's really Wesley's vibe. Yeah. And then you bring in the Cordelia element right away, which I'll spoil that my pick for most 99 thing is the entire Cordelia Wesley plot, which like Van and Bill and I just talked about this on the rewatchfuls episode for Wild Things, which is same exact period of time, right? That's 98. This is 99.

Doss's Creek, 99. It's like with Pacey. Oh, Pacey and a T-shirt. This was just like a thing that was routinely in our shows and our movies at this point in time. Right. And the one of... Giles being like, she's 18 and you have the maturity of a blueberry skull.

But also Giles just being like, it's okay. It's a wild moment for Giles at the dance. A wild moment. Was I a little bit distracted by how hot Giles looked in the tux? It didn't take me a minute to process what he said, possibly. Who can say? Who can say? But like, that's just all, you know, oh, yeah, I'm here to watch girls.

Oh, sorry. And, of course, when we're in his head and earshot. Oh, yeah, bad, bad man. I'm just like, uh, and then I don't have like my... Gen Z and Gen Alpha lingo really down. But I do believe that this is what the kids mean when they say it gave me the ick. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. When Wesley and Cordelia finally kissed. And I'm like, but they gave each other the ick. They give each other the ick. And that's, I have the ick. My skin is crawling. It's tough. God.

It's also a tough season for Cordelia because it basically, we talked about this a little bit, but it basically just exists to backslider into like her previous character. What do you know about, tell me everything you know about the angel spin-off, which we've talked about a little bit. I mean, literally nothing. I, on-mic, on-camera, found out that it took, my assumption, I mean, I knew the show existed, I knew it existed, and then it ran for many seasons.

Like, I think I knew it was five seasons that it had gone on for years, right? So I didn't think that it was just like a little blip or anything. My assumption, though, I guess if I kind of play back the tape on all of my WBCW watching over the years. Like, you would think it came after Buffy. That would have been my assumption was that it came after Buffy and it was his spinoff after Buffy concluded.

I guess if I had forced myself to think about it, I would have realized that wasn't true just based on like, you know, all my tiger beaten J-14 covers and stuff like that back in the day. What David Boreannis was doing at the time, sure. Yeah, but even so, even when you told me like, this is it, this is Angel's exit from the show.

It didn't occur to me that it would be this, like, definitive that he would be really leaving this plot line to open up his other thing. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more of a, and maybe there are, I know some things that await in the future. I'm trying to remain kind of pure for the things I don't know. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more,

you know, flash arrow, like many crossover. There's a little bit of crossover, but it was tough because Buffy, after season five, goes to a different network, and that's when the crossovers get really, dicey between the two shows because it was UPN versus the CW. Yeah. So I will say there's, this has been a question a lot of bad babies are asking, which is like, how are you going to cover season four with season one of Angel running contemporaneously?

And there is like some, you know, Angel will show up again. Buffy will show up on, on Angel. How are we going to handle this? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know yet. I haven't figured it out. I don't want to add an entire other show to our like roster.

I don't think we can watch all of Angel as we're trying to. Maybe we do you after or something. I think there's like a couple episodes that we can sort of throw into the mix and it won't ruin you to see it. Do any of those episodes of Angel clarified definitively how unlike Giles, who is canonically established as a school librarian, Wesley, a grown adult man who is not the school librarian is just hanging out at a school all day? Is that covered anywhere? I'll tell you this. And I think it's okay. I mean, I understand you're trying to stay pure.

No, I have grown, I'm, for example, even seeing here, Anya listed as like a seismic season three thing tells me something I do not know, which is that she has, like, now I would anticipate based on her role in these episodes, which I found wonderful, that she would be back. To the scope and extent, I have no idea. So that's like, that's one of the big, even just like stumbling on. I'm trying to keep you as, as innocent as possible. But I think I know some of the biggest things. I think it's worth saying, like, Cordelia, this is also the end of Cordelia's story. That I know for other reasons. I know that because of like real life reasons in terms of knowing when Chris McCartner left the show. But she's on Angel. So she, the Angel spinoff is David Borian is and Corrismacartner establish that spinoff. Fascinating.

Which is like a fun pairing to think about. And then Wesley Windham Price is like a big, a massive part. of the Angel show. And so, like, people love Wesley. This is, like, a very rough introduction to him. But then, like, he becomes this very important character for people. I found the performance wonderfully entertaining. So I'm excited to spend more time with him.

And, again, it's such a product of the late 90s to me that it's like, here we are. Here we are. Speaking of late 90s, let's talk about the Xander episode, the Zepo. Love. This is, you know, as this season we're going to talk about, talk about a lot about the patriarchy when we get to talking about the mayor a bit more. But like this season and it's dipping its toe a bit deeper into this idea of like sort of like insul culture, not necessarily as it pertains to Xander though through the 2026 lens. There's certainly

plenty of that sort of gathered around Zander. But like Jonathan and earshot or Tucker certainly in the prom episode, this this sort of idea is percolating. But this very like Rosencrantz or dead approach where the Hellmouth is opening in the background of Xander's plot inside of this episode. It's a really fun point of view. And Whedon said later about the television series, Agents of Shield, quote, this is basically a TV series of The Zepo, which is a very deliberate deconstruction of a Buffy episode in order to star the person who mattered the least.

The people who are ignored are the people I've been writing as my heroes from day one. So this idea of Xander as the heart or as I like to call them the jelly donut is something that will go on and on. But this is a, it's a thing that crops up in some of these, like, supernatural team up shows where, like, as we talked about before, members of the team all start sort of acquiring power. So, like, Willow and her exploration of Wicca, you know, Oz and his werewolfness, et cetera, et cetera. And then you got Zander, the Zepho, and he's also here. What did you think of this episode? This is one of my favorites to date. And in general, part of what I loved, I mean,

everything about this season just in terms of it's, like, cohesion, I loved, we'll talk about the mayor, the big bad. Yeah. The centering of human heroes and human villains and just complex human figures is just all wonderful. Part of what I love so much about this stretch is that like there's a great Willow episode. There's a great Zander episode and that they all have these through lines of like, Seth Green, where am I? Seth Green was filming Austin Powers too.

So Oz comes through some wonderful moments in this stretch. Every Oz line is incredible. But in terms of like, Seth Green is now a series regular. did we push his story forward in any way? No. No. Oz is like, Oz works really well

because he doesn't change. But I think Seth Green was hoping for like a bit more. Yeah. I loved to the Rosencrantz and Gildenstern point structurally, I thought that was so smart inside of the Zepo. Like, especially because it's not just, because actually, you know, picking up this half of the season,

there's a little part of me for Zander and Willow. And Willow, of course, like really actively attacks this with Buffy, which was one of my favorite parts of the season. Wait, all of a sudden. you don't think I can hack this anymore, right? Which is just a really interesting, like, evolution inside of their relationships that connects to everything with faith. Yeah.

So it kind of caught me off guard right away, the opening scene where, like, Zander, like, oh, my God, you could have died. You should get out of here. But then it became the engine that takes us into this wonderful examination of, like, psychology and insecurity. And so the fact that it's not just that something is happening and we're in the shadows with Xander, it's our primary point of view character for the episode. It's like the most intense thing is happening, right?

The Sisterhood of Jane. Yeah. The apocalyptic stakes and with the hell of the other. Never forget the face, that thing in a face. Yeah, it's like the most dangerous thing that has ever happened is happening. And we're like, let's go get ingredients to bake a cake. It's like genius. What I love about it too is that it operates as if you've never seen this epa before and you don't know what it's about.

Yeah. And you start it and you're like, why is everyone speaking so melodramatically this like, They're just like speaking these grandiose proclamation. So we get to like satirize what Buffy does while enjoying this story was Zander at the same time. I think the funniest example of that in the episode was when Zander cuts into the middle of the Angel Buffy conversation. That was killing me. That was great. And on the like, yeah, everyone is special, but you front.

I just love that in stories. And I thought this was a great way to examine that with Zander. You know, Cordelia coming in really aggressively and saying to him, like, it must. be really hard, right? When all your friends have like superpowers, slayer, or werewolf, which is vampires, and you're like this little nothing, you must feel like Jimmy Olson. And he's like, wait, I was just making that joke. Oh, fuck, right? When you say it's me, it just feels like shit, actually. It makes me feel like nothing. And the way he was talking to Oz about this idea of cool. It's like, well, what makes you cool? What's your thing? You need to find

that if you're Zander because you feel like you don't have the other thing that everyone else has, which isn't just like, Oz, what makes you cool? Is it the way you play the guitar? You should short to the point sense is. His like laconic is like. answers. Could be. Great stuff. It said Xander's like, I'm not, I don't have a supernatural ability so that it would feel almost strange to not have a version of that story in this stretch.

And to do it so creatively, I just, I just loved. Also, everything with Katie, the knife was hysterical. Great episode. Topal gang land. Another banger. Which our producer, Carlos, has said, in our notes, Vampire Willow changed lives. My life in particular, love that for you, Carlos. It's really good.

I think it's really important. Willow. When Willow says, it's horrible. That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and skanky. And I think I'm kind of gay. But he says, Willow, just remember a vampire's personality. It has nothing to do with the person it was.

And Asia goes, well, that's a good point. This is, to your point, this is an incredible Willow episode. And again, as we're talking about doubles and duality and stuff like that, we've got Wesley and Giles, we've got Willow and Vampire Willow. Like, what does vampire Willow teach Will and Willow comes in and has to sort of, the same way that Zander takes this stand at the end of the Zepo and stares down his enemy and wins. You know, Willow, a little less successfully, has to sort of like pretend to be this badass vampire as she comes into the bronze. So dressed up in these letters. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

This is one of Josh Sweden's top 10 favorite episodes of Buffy. I'm going to hit you with the list, which is number 10, Prophecy Girl from season one, which we have seen, which we both called out as a great episode. Number nine, Conversation with Dead People from Season 7, which you haven't seen yet, but it is an incredible episode. Number eight, Restless, Season 4. I'm not as high on Restless as Just Weadness, but it is an impactful episode. Number seven, becoming part two from season two, which we talked about. Number six, The Wish from Season 3.

Okay. Interesting. Number five, Dopple Ganglands. It's a great one. And then the top four, Innocence, once more, feeling hush in the box. we always talk about as like sort of the canonical top, you know, I'm distraught that passion's not here on the list, but that's okay, we can all have personal opinions, but it feels like Joss loves Anya, given that he gave us doppelgangland and the wish here on the list,

and this idea of like an alternate reality, et cetera, introduction to Buffy. How did you feel about this episode? Are you surprised to see it as number five on Joss Whedon's all-time Buffy episodes? Not necessarily, I think because it's like creative structurally. And I think when Willow has like an episode that that centers around her and it's just very satisfying and rewarding to watch. Yeah, you love them. I love them. I love them.

You're like, that's my fave. I didn't go to that episode, as you know. I picked a lot of superlatives for that episode. But, you know, I think just in terms of what it unlocks thematically, obviously like Buffy is our central figure is going to be the biggest driver of that. but when other characters can heighten and enhance either a parallel or a distinction, I think that just makes the whole universe and world feel more fully fleshed out. So like this idea with Willow and vampire Willow of like what's nature, what's nurture, whether it's being a vampire or being a slayer or being a wicker or whatever the case,

a werewolf, whatever the case would be, like what changes you, what enhances and amplifies, like super soldiers. or something that's already inside of you. Like, that's such an interesting thing to explore and play with. And it's also just a great stretch for Willow, like I said, because she stands up for herself so consistently. And that was the other thing in Dopplaggling that I loved was just,

it's not what don't I like about what I see. It's what do I kind of envy about this other version of me, you know? And so when she's first pretending at the bronze, when she's impersonating vampire Willow and like talking about regular Willow actually speaking about herself, right? And it's like, you know, and she's this and she's that and she's afraid and she's like meek. And then she blames other people for the things that like she's feeling. It was such an interesting example of kind of like play acting your genuine anxiety and projection, which I thought was really great.

So, you know, that is self-reflection. And then I think everything with what Willow is looking at with like Buffy and faith and feeling on the outside of that relationship and really deciding to actively challenge. challenge it and say like, why would you treat me as somebody who couldn't handle this? I loved. Loved. Weird vibes to be like, you can't kill her, you got to save her. And then she just immediately gets. Yeah.

Skewered. Immediately gets skewered. Tough one. The prom. This is just a huge, iconic, buffy moment. And I can't remember if I brought this up in part one of our coverage of the season. But Chloe Ja has said that she, on this. set of the Buffy reboot, memorize the speech that Jonathan gives at the prom here, and they got

like an umbrella for Sarah Michelle Geller and, like, gave it to her on the set of the show. Great stuff. And that's just, like, a really beautiful idea. But Buffy is dubbed the class protector. And this idea of being seen really seen, like, by her classmates for who she is in all of her complexity, really answering the Who Are You question that we get at the beginning of the season. I love this twist, this like unexpected twist and turn of the plot where it's like, yes, it bears belief that these kids like all year, all the years that we've been here have not gotten on to. And so they're like, yeah, we know weird stuff happens here. And actually, we've noticed what you do. And the fact that they see her is just like, I cry every single time that I watch that scene. The fact that it's Jonathan off of the back of earshad is like so important. And this idea that like Buffy. inside of, especially this stretch of the season, is caught between, you know, you mentioned the rejection

of the Watchers Council, right, that first Giles gets fired and then Buffy quits the Watchers Council. So the rejection of the rigidity of those rules as personified by Wesley and the rest of the patriarchy at the Watchers Council. And then the anarchical, violent chaos rules don't apply to us a path that Faith takes in the back half of the season. And Buffy's caught. in between here and what she then has to really decide for herself is like if you're not going to go by this sort of institutional rules, like what the Watchers Council says is the right and proper thing to do, but you're not going to say no rules apply to me, then you are forced inside of yourself to figure out what your personal code is and where your line is. And that's much harder than just

following the rules that are given to you. It's creating your own structure and your own sense of morality. It's a real growing up moment. Hopefully that happens for every. one, but certainly that happens for Buffy inside of this back half. And I just love that sort of like these pulls on her and her forging her own path in the middle of that. And then being rewarded by this moment of being seen, especially inside of, you know, a show that had a girl literally disappear, you know, in season one because her classmates did notice her, didn't see her. We do have a clip for this. I would clip this entire speech if I could, but legally we can't. So Carlos did his best for me to clip this.

We're proud to say that the class of 99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history. And we know at least part of that is because of you. So the senior class offers its thanks and gives you this. It's from all of us. And it has written here, Buffy Summers, Class Protector. Like my eyes wonderful. Get a little teary just seeing that. So yeah, Buffy knows exactly who she is until next season, at least.

So that's great. We got this great email from Clifton that I wanted to read about this moment. Buffy receiving the class protector award at the prom might be my single favorite moment in the entire show. Jell says this line, I never knew children en masse could be so gracious. It's such a powerful line that communicates a lot. The moment matters so much because it's unsolicited, yes, but also collective. and perceptive. Buffy has been routinely mocked, dismissed, feared, ignored,

and has accepted that time and time again as just the cost of doing what she needs to do. But season three finally allows her class to see her clearly a protector. I would also say it's critical that she gets the protector award and not the hero award or the warrior award or something. Buffy is a shield or an umbrella, ultimately, not a sword.

And that dichotomy explains a lot about Buffy versus Faith. And once they see her, they act. The season basically moves from individuals refusing to see the truth to a collective, choosing to see and to stand with what they seek. Seeing clearly doesn't solve problems, it forces responsibility. Faith flees from it while Buffy accepts it and the class joins her in one of the most fist-pumping moments committed to video. Mallory Rubin, how did you feel watching this episode, this scene in particular? I loved this one, and I thought that this moment was beautiful. I'll spoil now. This is my

pick for most emotional moment. I don't know how it couldn't be. The combination of of what Jonathan says, which is so lovely, and the umbrella, the look on Buffy's face and the look on Giles' face, and then what Giles says, as Clifton wrote. At the end, and just the recognition of really the rarity of that kind of collective embrace and acknowledgement is, like, such a lovely thing.

You know, I think we, I think about this a lot in the stories that I love, and also just in real life. It's like, that's, like, kind of the rarest currency is, like, just some, can somebody see you clearly? Like, either one is actually special about you or what you can provide. We were talking about this recently. Is anyone actually knowable?

Yeah. And like the fact that the answer to that can maybe be no, but also there's a certain quality that is like undeniable and important. And I think it's like the rarity and beauty of that on its own in a vacuum would be incredibly like moving and rewarding. But I think it is further heightened. And the fact that it's so impactful is increased because, because, like, the, you know, we've been talking about this across the pods and we'll talk about it more today with the mayor, but like the structures around these kids, whether it's like, I like that they, you know, hyena people, great stuff, but like Snyder getting a knock. Snyder, hyena people is like one of my favorite moments inside of the show. Very funny. A great buffy, like, microcosm of the humor leading right into the heart there. And also remembering hyena people from season one. The pack lives on.

Who could forget. Frankly, who can forget. The, you know, the fact that like this. school is a house of horrors in the high school as hell way, but also literally every day, there's some great affliction waiting around every bend. And the fact that the mayor, who is in theory, tasked with the protection and preservation of this town and this community, like any physical manifestation of community, your school, your home, the town, the government, all of these forces of evil inside of those are not only maybe failing, like in the case of Snyder, who is, of course, like, you know, in cahoots to some extent, but failing to do even an iota of what Buffy is able to do. Like in the case of the mayor, he's actively offering up the people

he should be protecting. He wants to eat the children. Yeah, as like the rituals and offerings to secure his position. So bloody offering, exactly. So yeah, it's like Buffy is not only doing all of these things, but doing them in opposition to all of the other examples around everybody every day of how easy it is to do the opposite. So I just thought this was really, really lovely and wonderful. And just the look of gratitude on her face was so beautiful. Because you're so smart and I can't get anything past you. When I introduced to Jonathan Category in season two, you're like, this makes me think Jonathan's going to be important. I was like, no. And like, but honestly, I was being very honest because I do love the little ways that Jonathan has used for, like, Danny Strong is just so great.

And I just like, dipping the chip earlier. This is so wonderful. Like all the little Jonathan isms leading up to earshot. I think it's just like an incredible slow role. We also get like, you know, Harmony and Larry die in the finale of this of this season of television. Like, and these are, again, like little, we've just had little moments with Harmony, little moments with Larry leading up to this. And now it's like their fodder here at the battle. Probably if I was like, as well as I am now, I'd feel about that the way I feel about the Battle of Winterfell where I'm like, no real person involved. How dare you? I know. A couple of our absolute faves.

Jorra. I know Jora. But like, Theon's death. Yes, it's beautiful. I think works better for me than Jora's death in that battle does. You know what I mean? Theon's moment is really, really good. Anyway.

You got a wonderful slow-mo musical accompaniment. So let's talk about faith. Let's do it. In earshot, there's this great scene where Buffy is absolutely bedeviling the, be sort of like goody-goody class person. Were you like a hand-raised front roho like in English class?

I was. That was me. Evolved over time. And like I don't like knowing that about myself, but it was true. Yeah, it evolved over time. Not in like middle school, but by high school and college, certainly. And like to the point where then if I wasn't commenting on something, I would often get called on just for making a face, you have something. You clearly have something to say.

You're making a face. part of it, that would happen pretty routinely. Part of it for me, there was the like, I'm excited about this and I want to share it or I want validation

for being thoughtful or whatever, you know, unflattered thing. But also sometimes the teacher would ask a question, no one would say anything and I would feel so anxious on their behalf

that I would raise my hand and say something because I was like, I feel bad for the teacher if they ask a question and no one says anything. Did you ever use the power of telepathy

to access one of your teacher's former thesis and share exact passages from that and then have the teacher be like, I'll never discuss which aspects of the demon I manifested in my senior year of high school. But in earshot, in that scene, they talk about Iago being the dark half of Othello himself,

which is, of course, like, what Faith represents for Buffy inside of this season. Let's play this great clip from the episode Enemies. Everyone always asks, why can't you be more like Buffy? But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me? No, I didn't. You get the watcher. You get the mom. You get the little skis.

Scooby gang. What do I get? Jack Squatts. This was supposed to be my town. Incredible scene in general. Great, like, psych moment from Buffy at the end of that. Really, really, really good. Faith caught monologing. Like, it's all happening. She does it well. But this is what Jane Spenson said about Faith. Here's a slayer who makes the wrong choice throughout the season. You can see Buffy flirting with the idea of making those choices. And Marty talking about Zander, Marty Knoxen talking about Zander in Faith says it ended up being about the idea of the abuse of power, nature versus nurture,

the responsibility of strength, ideas rather than more relatable melodrama. And there's this line and consequences, which comes after Faith kills Allen, RIP Allen. The whole town being like, oh my God, this murder. I'm like, guys. Alan's beloved. Sure.

And that's legions of dead who none of you gave a shit about. But Alan. Wild. And his, you know. Number two on the list of astonishing developments in this season after Bucci mayonnaise. Dice relationship with mayonnaise. Anyway, in consequences.

That I understand. In consequences, Buffy says, but it does not mean that we get to pass judgment on people. Like, we're better than everybody else. And faith says we are better. And this is, of course, yeah, the dark side of with great power comes great responsibility. What do you think about all this? Oh, my God. This is just, this is the good shit right here.

This is the stuff, Lionel. This is the stuff line. This is just great. Strong and Bradheon. Exactly. We talk so much about There Before the Grace. It is incorporated into active discussion in these episodes of television. I love Faith.

That clip you picked is such a great encapsulation of the opposite, right? There Before the Grace. Well, what about like? What about Faith? Yeah. Like, I'm supposed to be the chosen one, chosen two. What the fuck is this? Yeah.

This isn't what I was expecting at all. I think there's something really honest about that. And I love, this is another, it doesn't last long, but I thought it was really smart to have Buffy be for a period of time before what Faith does in there and then the rupture that it causes. Incredibly self-involved, really like high on her own supply and on the Slayer supply and casting out the people closest in her life. Bad Girls is one of the most important episodes. of television ever.

It's like the, I don't think you can moment with, that's like, you kind of need Buffy to be tiptoeing into the dark. Yeah, for a second there, so that she can have the clarity of really what that would feel like and look like.

I thought that that was like a real good, very smart way to kind of heighten it. The bad girls' slangs what we're built for if you're not enjoying it, there's something wrong moment gave me such on the throne's front. John, Danny, everyone enjoys what they're good at.

I don't want it. I don't want it. Like, I love that moment with John. Do you think that's what Kid Harrington said after he kissed Sophie Turner and that clip that went around? Maybe. I don't want it.

It's been a powerful week to be a kid Harrington fan. I got to say, boy. Henry Muck. My God. This is your weekly industry check-in moment. That's right. This is my, I think at this point it's more than once a week of a mentioning industry

on House of Our Talk to the Thorns, but my God, Muck, what a time to be a Muck fan. And then I think just like also in a big picture sense with Faith, the extra degree of despair that you feel that she seeks out the mayor. Like the fact that it is not, he didn't come to her, he didn't manipulate her, she makes an active choice.

And choices is one of the episode names for a reason. It's so central to this idea of what you're deciding. Right off the heel of this moment where she and Buffy are disagreeing. She's at the docks. She's maybe going to skip town, and then she kills Mr. Trick. Right. I could have used more Mr. Trick personally. She kills Mr. Trick in this moment of like seemingly like saving Buffy. It's an incredibly complicated moment. Like she and Buffy are at odds. Yeah. Um, and then she saves her and you're like, oh my God, is Faith going to turn? There's so many, oh, my God, is Faith going to turn a corner? Angel has her and is reasoning with her and Wesley shows up and fucks it up. Like there's so many moments where it's just sort of like, can we make it with Faith? And, and I mean, listen, she, she ends a season.

in a coma, so it doesn't seem great, but I don't know what awaits. Guess what? Even the fact that... It's not the last time we'll see a lot. She's not dead dead. Even the fact that like the gambit with Angel, that faith is running before the tables turn there, you know, I'm scaring myself. I know the feeling.

I felt like there were pretty consistent injections of truth. You know, your lies are always more powerful when there's truth behind them. And so that, just like the false starts of weight, she saved Buffy, a lot of moments that pull you into the fact that there could. I was expecting the entire time, watching this season for the first time, for faith to come back around. The entire time. Yeah.

So it was astonishing to me, but in a very satisfying way, that that is not how it went. Dream Faith does. So, you know, while a cat was involved. This is our listener, Brent wrote it on the back of what she says in enemies there, when she talks about like you have the mom, you have the scoobies, you have everything. And we had been talking about a real bone I have to pick with Joyce and Buffy this season is the fact that Faith has left languishing in this shitty motel. And it takes the mayor to take her out of the motel and put her in a loft somewhere with a lot of gauzy curtains. And I'm like, why couldn't Joyce do that? And our listener

Brett wrote it to say, I believe the point of this decision is to show how we cannot ignore our dark side. When we ignore the darkest parts of ourselves, they grow in. in the shadows. Our darkness will grow and change one way or another. We can either take it in the house and help bring light to the dark or we can lock it away in a crappy motel and let it fester until it comes to destroy our good sides. I loved that. I thought that was so smart. But I just, I love faith. I love this term for faith. We are despairing because we have come to care about faith. So it is despairing to see her make these choices to go down this path. Yeah.

This is, of course, kind of what we went through with Angel in season two. Does it feel at all repetitive to you to see, like, a character that we cared about who was close to Buffy becomes an antagonist in the back half of the season? I would say, if anything, the opposite. Like, not only did it not feel like a retread, I think that the fact that one fall, like, Angel, in Angel's case, was supernaturally driven and really rooted in the helplessness. of the inability to be in control of your choices and the way that you want to live your life for your actual desires to be completely irrelevant is that tells us something different

than what happens with faith here, which is this very deeply human choice born out of need and want and jealousy and lust for power and insecurity and how those are as powerful and as mighty as any supernatural force. Like that feels really, important in this story, but also just more broadly, like, there's more than one form that

disappointment can take in your life. So I like reinforcing that. And then, you know, like we talked about last pod when just discussing the introduction of faith. I think it's interesting still to keep showing us different versions of what a Slayer's life can look like. Yeah. And then I think especially because Angel ends up sort of functioning as like this, this Harold, right? Like, just got a taste for it. and then briefly seeks to be a guide, and then, of course, has to be this oppositional force. That's some of my favorite for a lot of stuff this season,

actually, is Angel trying to reason with faith or help faith. And then, you know, fucking Wesley shows up. On the bad girls front, as I want to do, I do want to shout out my pals over the buffering podcast because they, at a live show that I attended, did a lengthy PowerPoint presentation all about how they had a map of Sunnydale we've got the time stamps of when Buffy and Faith go to slay a nest of vampires. And then the next time we see them, there is a, I believe, a costume change, and they are dancing at the bronze, dancing sexy at the bronze.

They sure. And based on like timing. A little chuckle from Carlos. It's a great season for Carlos. Based on timing, how you get around Sunnydale, the point of the PowerPoint was Faith and Buffy definitely fucked inside of this episode. That is their assertion, right? Um, the Buffy Faith sexual, these are not undertones. These are overtones that were very intentionally there. Doug Petrie, who helped create Faith has talked about like, yeah, yeah, I was like really, really aware of what we were doing in the original script, uh, for enemies when Faith gives Buffy a smooch on the, on the forehead and says, you kill me, you become me. All of that. It was originally supposed to be a smooch on the mouth. So like, they're definitely, you know, not even just like flirting with this. They are definitely just like really, really. trying to go for it as much as they felt like they could in 1999.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Vampire Willow does, like, lick Willow. So we are just sort of like circling all of this inside of this season. I found it all very compelling. Our listener listens that I would love to hear you talk about the faith and Buffy sexual tension. Anything you want to say about that a particular amount of ribbon? I think it is, as you said, a subtext and active text alike.

I think I will say this is specific to the faith aspect of this. I think that because so much of her lust and the way that, like, Buffy and other characters talk about what, like, intimacy means to faith, if this had been explored more overtly in the show, I could have seen it going to, I could see it, like, haven't gone two ways. On the one hand, I could see Buffy or anybody else really wondering maybe how genuine that feeling was. on faith's part, right? But then there's an opportunity to really, like, heighten the connection as a result of that because it gets stand in contrast to the kind of boy toy for a night,

Xander experience. So, yeah, it's the dance, the cut to the dancing at the bronze is, it's, it's, I'll immediately put it in the, in the head canon next to Steve Rogers and Natasha in the car. Yeah. On the rug. Listen, bad girls with the, like, the heart on the window, the breaking through the window

with the lights from me behind them, like the two slayers getting ready to fight. And then the bad girls dancing at the bronze moment are just, like, iconic. Yeah, it's great. Buffy Vampire Slayer. I learned from faith at the beginning of this season that Slaying just always makes you hungry and horny. So what else were they going to do between slang and the vampires and dancing at the bronze? It's also, again, this doesn't diminish the. prospect of a more fully realized and sincere connection.

There's something that would also, I think, feel very right to me about faith. It's very like Loki, Sylvie, seismic narcissist coded to me. Yeah, yeah. Who would you possibly be more inclined to want to touch and fuck and fall in love with and worship than somebody who reminds you of yourself if you're, if you think that you are the best in the world because you're a special because you're a slayer? Something makes us different. It reminds you of yourself, but like the version of yourself that everyone else seems to

find more palisive. Right. Yeah. The blonder, quote unquote, better version of yourself. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the mayor. Let's talk about the mayor. Uh, as you, as you alluded to before, this is the first non-vampire Big Bad and it sparks a trend for sort of the rest of the series. Like, you know, we had the master. We had Spike. We had Angelus and we're like, okay, we get it. Vampires. We've defeated them. We get it. You're evil. Like what, you know, where can we go from here? We've got a demon with a human face inside of, or a human who wants to be. become a demon, a true demon inside of the mayor. I love the contrast. His like, I mean, he's so funny. Mayor Richard Wilkins is so, so funny. And, but alongside that humor, his, like, fussiness, his prissiness is a really nice contract to the impulsivity of Spike and Angelus and Drusilla. Their appetites. They're, like, you know, Angel just, like, letting passion. overcome him as stuff like that and the mayor is a planner. Yes. Biting his time. You know, golly Gilly Willickers and all of that. So I just think that it is

incredibly good. And we got a great email from our listener, Caesar, talking about all the human. You alluded to this, but like the Watchers counselor, counsel, Wesley and Gwendolyn Post, Jonathan, the lunch lady in earshot. Like, humans can be just as dangerous as vampires, demons of the forces of darkness. This isn't a season where evil conveniently wears a demonic face. It's a season that ask harder questions about complicity, institutional failure, which you were underlining, and the choices people make.

We're going to talk about him as like a bizarreo Giles, and I really want to get your take on that. But I want to talk about like the patriarchy, which we talked about when it comes to the Watchers Council. And I want to talk about again when it comes to Richard Wilkins, because he's got this like, again, Gali G. Willikers, Ted Wheeler-esque, like language sort of approach thing, which is very funny and very fun and really well done. But also this like he's he's quite literally patronizing the way that he talks to Faith as like a daughter figure, right? Yeah. Which is so it is similar and

different from the way that Giles thinks of Buffy as a as a daughter. You know, he's about building Buffy up to be as strong as she can be. And faith is just a weapon for the for the mayor to to wield at the end of the day. But this is. these literally patronizing quotes from him, like talking to Faith, this isn't a free ride, young lady. You know, I'm beginning to think that somebody's getting a little spoiled. Maybe I should just take this back. Or to Buffy, so you're the little girl that's been causing me all this rebel. She's pretty angel.

And then later it calls her a whore. And like to wrap that all up with Buffy taunting the just really elegant CGI snake that is Mayor Wilkins at the Ascension, you want to get it back for me, Dick. That was great. It's just incredible stuff. Anything you want to say about that or this idea of him as sort of a bizarreo Giles figure? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, had to do some soul searching and reflect on the fact that I have a very similar relationship to germs as Mayor Dick Wilkins. Something says like, this guy might be honest up in here.

This guy. Plumliness is next to godliness. Dick, share the rest of the platform. You know, I think that the like- Mayor Wilkins, the third, had some points. Had some good points. A great whiskey cabinet and like handcloths, hand wipes before maybe they were quite as prevalent as they are now.

I respect it. I do. Everything else I have some notes. Seemingly a talented golfer. Yeah, he could work on, he could stand to work on a shorky in a little bit. I think the fact that he celebrated hitting that putt so robustly indicates he's missing a lot of them. The pull your hair back. You know, you'd look nice with your hair pulled back and like the pink dress.

Not only wooing Faith with the loft, but like the PlayStation, I'll buy you an icy. The single most disgusting moment, to me, to date, across three seasons of Buffy was when he poured Faith a glass of milk, which like really. Room temp just sitting out, milk. You need to talk to my friend Jenny about this. I would love to. I'm scarred by that. You know, I think it is so effective in a couple ways. One, it is something that Faith sees that she can use,

that there's a space there that she can occupy, right? But also, it is to the, like, there are truth and the lies discussion from a few minutes ago. It is something that Faith doesn't have and didn't have and misses. the way that she kind of casually and sarcastically says elsewhere. Can we skip the like Mom Didn't Love Me part? Like that ease a wound for her, right? And so to have the mayor as a character who is giving faith some really warped and kind of twisted and sick version of a thing that she lacked and that Buffy has.

But as we know from being inside of Buffy's home and life, it's not perfect. It's not easy. Joyce, we have some notes. Joyce, we have some notes. Giles, we've had some notes. right? And so there's always that question of like, what does, where your jealousy leads you to think that somebody else has something in full and completely that you lack. I like the way that this captured it. And I think that we've been talking since the beginning of season one about with Giles and Buffy, obviously my favorite relationship in the show, the impact that they've had on each other and the way that they have learned and grown collectively and positively influenced each other and like face challenges together and push through them together. you know, there's like a version of the mayor in faith where you're like, that's not what this is at all. But then there are these, the fact that the end, I was like, it's going to be the germs, right?

At the end, it is going to be the germs. And then the fact that it's like, this dagger reminds you of faith. And that is how I can lead you to your doom was such an interesting way to just really heighten and reinforce the parallels. You know, this thing that might have been like a- humanity. Yeah, there's like a transactional aspect to the relationship initially, but it doesn't mean that even the villain is incapable. of forging an attachment and an affection that is, even if it's warped, warped, is on some level for them sincere and giving them both something that they needed. And especially because we got

to hear him talk when he was lecturing Angel and Buffy about the passage of time and their relationship a scene that I really loved. We get to hear him talk about like his love and what he lost and Emma. Edmaid and Wilkins. What it was like to watch her like melt away. Yeah. And wrinkled and seen and all and cursing me from my youth. Yeah, and then you're like, well, damn, like, that actually sounds really hard and lonely, you know? So I just thought this was all great. And, like, when he pours some milk and puts her in a pink dress and tells her to pull her hair back, I'm, like, revolted and appalled. Yeah.

But then there are moments that just draw you in. And I think the way that Eliza Dushku plays it, because, like, just her, like, kind of shy little smile sometimes when he, like, it's a fucked up warped dynamic. But she's getting something that she kind of wanted from Gwendolyn Post if Gwendolyn. Linlipost could offer it and she kind of wanted it from like maybe Joyce or maybe Giles, but they are, you know, that is, that space is already occupied by Buffy for them. And so it's like, she was so thirsty for this that even though it comes from this completely demonic warped source who's asking her to do horrible things, there's this girlish sort of, you know, delight that she takes in it.

The moment where he's like, if Buffy walked in right now, I'd still pick you, it's like such kind of like pro like it's just prototypical gaslighting right and manipulation but it is oh okay are you the only person who would make that choice moment for faiths so that's brilliant um I do love like the the fact that he's been at this for three generations more like same exact guy same exact same exact same exact same exact guy right but the fact that he's been sort of like ruling shadow ruling over Sunnydale

you know since the turn of last century um means that the way that Sunnydale is in terms of, like, hiding the supernatural, like, this, this premise that beggars belief that, like, you know, PCP, gang and violence PCP or, like, you know, backed up sewers or whatever the case may be, all these, like, Snyder excuses, come from a century of an institution hiding demonic activity inside of Sunnydale. Right. And I think that's incredibly smart. And then, like, the impervious aspect, which I absolutely, I mean, like,

Special effects, we have some questions. But more than a few. But the impervious aspect in this idea, I'm like Epstein Files cooked as most people are in our country right now. But the idea that like the rich and powerful are impervious to, they could be like doing demonic activity right in your face and you could throw a letter opener at them or something like that and it won't touch them because they are above. You know, and it takes a Buffy the Vampire Slayer or someone to sort of permeate those halls of power. And like the frat boys, like the, you know, previously this idea that how they actually got that power in the first place is because they're willing to offer you up to the beast in their lair. Like, that's all. And then again, that great touch inside of that, though, of saying, like, without ever crossing the line into, oh, we're saying that like, even though it is literally framed as like the human impulses, the weakness that we can exploit, never making that feel like the bad thing for Buffy or our Scoopies, like this supernatural impervious being.

It wasn't the blade through the head. It wasn't the letter opener in the hand. It wasn't actually the germs. He's impervious. He's impervious and invulnerable when he wears the face of a man. But when he's a snake. Yeah, that's when they can get him by praying upon his humanity. That's just like a fascinating kind of contradiction.

All the pieces are so satisfying. The fact that like we know a thing or two about explosives or Anya, who we met way earlier in the season has some information because she was around during the last ascension, you know, like all of, like every single piece is, is, feels intentionally put in, in place. You already alluded to this great scene in, I believe it's choices, where the mayor talks to angel echoing what the first evil says and amends, echoing what Spike says and lovers walk, echoing what Joyce will come to say when she's like, she'd go to Northwestern, are you kidding me? What are you doing holding her back?

And then his dream of Buffy's wedding, this is all setting up for Angel to depart the show in a way that feels believable and a way for him to still like seemingly, like the two of them still being the loves of each other's lives and it still feels accurate, correct, in character. Yeah. That it follows the story that he would leave. Because when you do a spinoff, when a character leaves, either because the actor's done or, you know, a spinoff or whatever a case may be, I'm always. I'm always from like a take apart the machine of this TV show and look at the parts and put it back together. I'm always looking for like how organic is this departure. The fact that they plan this for a while sort of gives them a lot of runway. And so you can have amends and lovers walk and choices and all these things lead up to this.

But how did it work for you and how to work as a goodbye? Knowing because I spoiled for you. This is the end of angel. again, even then I'm like, I seem we'll be back after a show or I don't know. I, this worked well for me. I think that it was imperative that Buffy voiced inside of the show a lot of the things that I was thinking. Because the fact that like Spike, we love that lover's walk scene and Spike knows of what he speaks, right? But the fact that like Joyce is meddling with Buffy's life is actually like really,

like repellent to me, given the Joyce Buffy history, and the fact that like the mayor, this bro, like, comes in and is like, are you sure? And then Angel's like, good point. No, but like, but the worst person you know has a point is like, right. I think the fact that Buffy voices in the show like, well, what about what I want? What about what I think about my own life? Do I not get to say in like, do I not get to be the arbiter of my own heart? She does say that him. If that had not happened, I actually, I think I would not have liked this. But because she says that and then it is like, Angel is, it's just ultimately that heightens the sacrifice and the tragedy of the fact that they don't feel like they can be together.

That part of his kind of eternal torment is not feeling like he's worthy of and deserving of that kind of happiness because if he gets it, it is like a literal risk, right? but also it is coming at like the expense of a fuller and more true experience for the person he cares about the most in the world. That all felt like really right to me for Angel. I was glad that Buffy was kind of like fuck off. And then they have time over many episodes to work toward the really emo and very dramatic and real chef's kiss in a great late 90s way. I'm just going to watch you from the fog and miss. I was like, this is great.

Very good. So, yeah, I did enjoy it. The fact that the nature, I think the clever nature of the, like, the poison and the slayer blood and he has to drink from her, so we get one more, like, pseudo-sexing between the two of them, but also, like, how dangerous that was for Buffy? Yeah. What is Buffy willing to risk for him? And then, you know, is Zander always the most trusted and impartial authority when it

comes to Angel and Buffy? No. But, like, when he says, you know, good to know that you'll always, you'll always, you'll, you'll be willing to, like, risk the person you love most to save your own ass. Like, there's a kernel of something there. So everybody gets like a... I'm not allowed to give Zinder or any, any, any court. She like, she like, not forces him, but she like beats the shit out of Angel in order to get him to, like, vamp out. Then he just, then he really latches on. He stops in time. The crushing of the metal is really good. Very powerful and great stuff. So yeah, this was all,

this was all, like, really good. I also, I don't know if this is like completely sacrilegious to say. Like, I'm kind of excited to see Buffy explore relationships with other people. Like I feel like... It really... I think it is so fitting. This is her high school boyfriends. Yeah. Yeah.

It feels right. It feels like the right time. I'm not anti-Angel Buffy. It's not, as you know, not my like canonical ship from this show. But I... But it has its place. It's a high school romance. And it like matters.

Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Last but not least, before we get into our superlatives, I'm calling this section Riddles in the Dark. I get to take you into... Theory Corner. Carlos, will you play this clip from

Graduation Day, Part 2, please? There's something I'm supposed to be doing. Oh, yeah. Miles to go. Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730. Great. Riddles.

Oh, look about cat. As you mentioned, there's a cat. We also get this exchange. Who's going to look after him? It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves? Cat as stand-in for lonely isolated Slayer, wonderful. A higher power guiding us?

Pretty sure that's not what I meant. So, so,'s made. So, welcome to Theory Corner Mallory Rubin. Oh, uh-huh. Any theories, cook in from what this cryptic dream exchange could mean here at the end of all things. And by the end of all things, I mean, high school. I don't know, because some of what happens in that sequence kind of immediately bears fruit. Like, there's the flashing of the dagger in Buffy's hand, right?

And then that is what Buffy uses to lead. Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730. No? No, absolutely no idea. No idea. No idea. We're just going to mark it and come back to it. I assume it.

I mean, Faith is not. Carlos knows what it is. Faith is not dead. So there's not, until Faith dies, there's not another slayer coming. Right. So Faith is alive, another slayer's not coming. Unless she has had a drowning equivalent. Yeah, a flatline moment.

Yeah, a flatline moment. But I assume that is pointing to the Orion. of another figure of consequence, whether that is an individual person, a force of evil, I don't know. Could it be 730 sex scenes for Giles? That would be great. I would personally really love that. Okay.

Season 4 is just Giles fucking up a storm. In my head, canon. Okay, great. Certainly. You know what's interesting about, so we are, I think it's like, yeah, something like 50-something episodes into this show, right? Right, because season one's shorter. Or maybe like 60, maybe low 60, something like that.

Yeah. And that's wild to think about because, like, there are many, like, important shows in our life that never even get 50 episodes. And this is what I sort of mean about the, like, marination time you have with the 22 episode season. It's just sort of like, you've spent 60 plus episodes with these characters so far and you have many more to go. And it's just sort of like a different time. And then potentially five seasons with Wesley and Angel, too. Wild to think about. I guess the

Little Miss Muffet counting down from seven thirty, I have no clue. I guess the higher power guiding us, it does strike me that that, that in the same stretch here in the, in the graduation day, double finale,

very like end of the show, you know, Giles, as they're looking at the burning school and he's saying, you know, of graduation, there's a certain dramatic irony attached to all this synchronicity that borders on predestination, one might say, like that note

is being pinged a couple times here. But also it feels a little lampshady of like we get it. We did like a graduation day and like we blew up the high school as we're leaving, you know, all of this sort of stuff. We don't have like saddest death category that we're going to get to today, but I would probably give it to RAP the library. We spent some good times there, man. We spent some great times there. The library set is over. Jeez, where will Giles hang out?

Tune in to season four to find out. Is he going to be at college with them? Like, is he just going to hang out in the cafe or something? Because they like their mocas. Like real Wesley, sort of, what is this old man doing here? At college, it's fine. In high school, it's just really fucking weird, but college is fine. Yeah.

We'll find out. I can't wait. Let's go down to our support. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about zebbound, terseptitite. The first and only FDA. approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. All right, Mallory Rubin. Mm-hmm. Favorite line. Okay, so my actual pick is one we've already talked about. It's from episode 21, graduation day, part one. Buffy quitting the council and saying, you know,

you can't turn your back in the council. They're in England. I don't think they can tell which my back is facing is just fucking dope. Yeah. And this is Muni. I like to think of it as graduation. I just got one of those really satisfying, like, full-body chills that you kind of will remember forever

when you hit a perfect moment in a story that you love. So that is my pick. I have some rapid fire also rants, but I'll wait for you to make your pick and then hit some of my runners up. This is a gift for me to you. And it goes like this. Sure. We can work out after school. You know, if you're not too busy having sex with my mother.

Okay. Cue Giles running into a tree. I was going to say, I don't, incredible line. I like to think that my beloved Ruper Giles would be more composed than to just stumble face first and do a tree tree tree. But I don't mind being reminded of his true drunk. I also think we already mentioned it, but... Carlos, this is a light play compared to what you had to go through last week. I also think, I already mentioned it, but you want to get it back from me?

Dick is a great line as well. What are your rapid fires? Okay, bad girls. After Faith and Zander hooked up, so Faith is asking Buffy about Zander. He's just a friend. So what are friends for? I mean, I'm sorry. It's just all the sweating nightly side-by-side action you'd never put in for a little after-hours.

It's just grunting. Great stuff. Willow to Buffy, also in bad girls. Give me time and I maybe the first way to do all my conjuring and fine, fresh scent. I loved that. Consequences. Faith to Angel. Yeah, I hope evil takes master card.

It's great stuff after he says you can't put the price for true evil. Doppel gang land. Anya and Willow. I swear, I'm just trying to find my necklace. Well, didn't you try looking inside the sofa? In hell? Incredible. I think Alison Nahanagan's delivery of that is one of the all times. So funny. She's really amazing in this season. Yeah. Earshot, Angel Warning Buffy to be careful with the demons aspect. This is a more like sincere one. A lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be painful. I liked that. On the angel Buffy front in prom, they're hunting down, who's been buying brains to feed to the hellhounds and she sees him getting the pines. of blood. And it's like, where did I think you got your blood? McPlasma? That's great. That's great. All right, villain of the week. Easiest pick of the pod run so far. The homie Balthazar. Bad girls. I love this guy. The Homi Balthazar. Or Balfi as I will be calling him. I have been calling him in my home. Tell me, tell me about the homie Balthy. So there's a really kind of

dune vibe to just the way he's like really like bare. Yeah. in the tub vibe to just his positioning. Also at the very end after he's been fried and his skin is all like, you know, red and blister and crackling. I'm like, that's what I look after like the first day out in the sun in L.A. in the summer. I just want, I'm grateful to him

for, with Giles in his, in Balthy's dungeon layer. Wesley's also there. Balthy, he's being basted. Yeah. Our arms flailing. Yeah. The front, the front. and moist in the front. And I just want to go on the record that

that's not something people usually have to say when Ruper Giles is in the room. An elegant solution. This is fantastic. Work from you. Top tier as always. Oh, God. Great stuff.

You know what I want? If it's for me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you kill me now. This is a great Giles stretch with Balthy, and I'll remember it till I die. I actually think the real answer is not the homie Balthasar. But I think Carlos agrees with me.

It's vampire willow. Like, it's got to be vampire will. Very powerful. Incredibly good shit from vampire lo. I honestly didn't know if vampire willow was eligible given to the two episodes. Yeah. The first half of the season as well. But I think it's sensible to always call me out for breaking my own roles and that's great.

But she's like the main villain in that episode, kind of. But then Anya's also there. And Dehafen's also there. So things to think about. Similarly, best fit, I'm giving it to Vampire Willow and all the leather. Undeniable. Or Buffy's iconic red leather pants, black sleeveless shirt. She has a coat on the episode, but all the promo photos are like absolutely iconic.

And when you see women dressed up as Buffy for like Halloween, this is like this is the look is the red leather pants, the black sleeveless shirt. And Faith says, well, look at you all dressed up in big sisters clothes. That's so good. Yeah. That's really great. that's fantastic. I think Willow, doppelganger Willow,

to me is the pick, but I did just want to, like, leather throughout this season, I got to say. It's just, like, having a moment. Boy, again, the 90s. And eternal,

honestly, eternally. I did have one of my most, like, the most 1999 thing. Yeah. One of the options is Faith, like,

Faith wears a lot of leather this season and it's all great. But in one episode, which one, and consequences, she's wearing vinyl pants. Oh, yeah, yeah. And those are just,

like, you know, the high shine off the vinyl pants. So 99 to me. Very shiny. Since this is a fashion category, though, I would just like to take a moment to reflect on the evolution of Giles' wardrobe. Obviously. After he is no longer a part of the council. Oh, yeah.

You sent me a... You were floored. Floored. Now, I have the shirt, the t-shirt that I had previously worn with all the pictures of Giles. So I knew that sweaters were coming because there's some sweater Giles action on that t-shirt. However, nothing could have. prepared man. I mean, nothing could have prepared me for the opening of the Zepbo, where he is, he's in a, like, it just looks like he's walked right out of an Eddie Bauer catalog, and he's in,

like, an oversized, really outdoorsy fleece. That was a shock to me. The network gets, like, really roomy in season four. Yeah, and it's mostly working that one. I had some notes on, however, in earshot. Powerful in a number of respects, everything that happens with Giles in that stretch, but Buffy's in bed. Joyce is in the doorframe, and Giles is behind Joyce also in the door frame, and he has, you know, the one hand on the doorframe and the other is pulling the glasses off and then pinching the nose, and he's got the, like, kind of brown blazer, black shirt, no tie, walking sex.

Just unbelievable. I'm sure. I'm sure Joyce thought so, too. No question. Giles in a tux at prom. Incredible. And then on the sweater front, when he's in like the roll neck sweater, is he in Wesley Fence in graduation day part one? That was working for me. I have to, I have to admit. It's great. Giles, known fashion plates. Great stuff. Just like that he's trying some new things. All right. This is our rapid fire best of the mayor, Cordelia, and Ozism. What do you want to give me for the mayor? Okay, so I had two candidates for the mayor. One is spoken and one is written. In Bad Girls, when he opens his to-do list after the story. to the head test.

Yeah. And he checks off, become invincible. And then we see that he also has meeting with PTA, call temp agency, and haircut. Yeah. It's like real Steve Rogers. I'm updating my to-do with stuff there. Great.

But in graduation day, part one, he's eating the Gavrock, or as Buffy would say, Gravlocks, iconic. That killed me. I want to say, ooh, gravlocks. That was so good.

The, like, little legs that he's crunching on. Oh, funny. And he says, I can feel the changes to begin. organs are shifting, merging, making ready for the Ascension. Plus, these babies are high in fiber. What's the fun in becoming an immortal demon

if you're not regular? Am I right? Great concerns. You know, fiber intake is very important. Great stuff. We love that. Here's my favorite mayorism of all time. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I happen to know that's factually true. Not a fan.

Not a fan. It's really funny. Also, his love of the paper shredder. Yes, the paper shredder is good. It's very good. I also liked when he said it, we don't knock during dark rituals. I don't act during dark rituals. Cordelia.

I had fewer contenders for Cordelia than usual. Absolutely. This back of the season is not great for her, but I will say in earshot, when she can hear everyone's thoughts and Cordelia just like thinks what she says. I don't see what this has to do with me.

And then she says, I don't see what this has to do with me. And then she goes, whatever. I wonder if I can go. Whatever can I go? That's really good. That was very funny. And then suck a fuck Xander. I'm just going to sneak a suck-a-fuck-fuck-zander in here

when he says the comedy stylings of Miss Cordelia Chase, everyone who, incidentally, won't be needing a higher education when she markets her own very successful line of hookerware. Fuck you, Xander. Jesus. Fuck you. Not very nice. All right.

Any other Cordeliaisms in here? I had the same winning pick because that was just such a great, like, a note on her character. She's just really mean again in these episodes, you know? It's sad. I didn't earshot when they're all doing their interviews, and she says to Mr. Beach. Were you planning on killing a bunch of people tomorrow?

Oh, it's for the yearbook. Yeah. There's just something so specific to her deal with that. She's really good. The way she does that. I like that. All right, our guy, Oz. Great, great, great,

Oz contenders here. We already mentioned the could be in the Zepo. That really killed me. And I liked also in Zepo when Xander's like, you need a thing. One thing nobody else has. What do I have? And Oz says, an exciting new obsession,

which I feel makes me very special. I think my pick is. in doppelgangland when Willow is confronting that her friends think, she's worried people think she's boring. And she finds out that Oz has gotten back from a gig. And she's like, why didn't you tell me? And he's like, I didn't think that you would want me to, I didn't think you'd want to miss school. She says, you think I'm boring.

And he says, I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text. I just love that. Love that. I think my favorite Oz moment is when he tosses the cauldron when Wesley is debating, like, whether or not we say Willow or we do this or whatever. And Oz is like, well, there you go. No other option. So that like rare moment of him like losing his shit, right?

Once again, an earshot. I am my thoughts if they exist in her. Buffy contains everything that is me and she becomes me. I cease to exist. Incredible shit. We think therefore she is was so funny. Yeah. Willow, what are you doing, Oz panicking right before they have sex?

Great stuff. Yeah. And then this is a Cordelia, Zander, Oz, you know, three-way. which is, we'll get a container of Ebola virus. Or it doesn't even have to be real. We can just get a box that says Ebola on it and chase him with the box. Zander says, I'm starting to lean towards the hummus offensive. And Oz says, he'll never see it coming.

Incredible. Oz is the best. I like to do with the prom and basketball, these kind of, like, his reactions to these very, like, traditional typical high school experiences that haven't really been a part of his life in a way that he enjoyed. So when they're all like, oh my God, this game-winning three-pointer, a buzzer-beater at the end of the game, and everybody's talking about it, and Buffy wasn't there, so that's that awkward. Maybe things stranger things. But when Zander's like, for a minute, I thought you were going to make an expression.

And I just like, I felt one coming on. I won't lie. And then on prom when Buffy asked how the dance has been, says, strangely affecting us. It's very, just he's great. He is great. Very sweet. Best fight scene. I mean, I think.

it has to be, well, I think I'm going with Buffy and faith and consequences. I think that that's very difficult to top. You need me to toe the line because you're afraid you'll go over it, you know, because it tempts you, you know it could be you. That's just all fantastic. I did really like as like a contender, faith in Willow, their argument in choices was very powerful. Inside the mayor's office. Yeah, I like the way that Willow calls out faith on her. bullshit there. Yeah, I think it's obviously the the faith and Buffy fight. The line should have been there, be quite a ride, like, which doesn't even like fully make sense, but kind of

does at the same time. The jump off the roof onto the truck, like, I think it's fantastic. It's like what you've been wanting all season, and I think they just like really nailed it. And then you get a CGI snake, which is not as good. Though the whole student body comes in fights and that is Something like really sweet about that. And that looked, that was more convincing visually than the snake. Than the snake.

So I'll go with the verbal argument and the, the initial kind of skirmish at the docs in episode 15 consequences. You're going with the fully realized fight at the end. And then they'll be bookends impaired. Great. Love it. Hornyest moment. We both have clips for this. You go first.

Carlos. What do you say? I want to be bad. This just can't get more disturbing. No more. You're really starting to freak me out. That is both my true answer and a gift for Carlos of vampire Willow licking. Very powerful.

Very powerful. The dream. Honestly. That's the dream. And like not all of the doubling. There's some like there's a little bit. Like I think they handle the doubling really well where like you see her lick the neck and then you cut to like, you know, our Willow's face. You don't have to do a lot of like weird split screen like trickier.

or whatever, it's done really well. Very, very memorable. The implication that, like, to your point about Faith wanting to have sex with herself, the implication that Vampire Willow wants to fuck herself is, like, fantastic. Again, it's just so Loki core in a way that I love and appreciate. Or is Loki core, you know what I mean? I think that's the, that is the case. That is the case.

Yes, exactly. Look, you know what I've picked here. Everybody knows what I've picked here, but let's just enjoy it together anyway. Why are you? You had sex with Giles. You had sex with Giles? It was the candy. We were teenagers.

On the hood of a police car? I'll be downstairs. You feel better. Twice? The most important moment in the history of television. I mean... After Ban Candy, were you worried that we would not, like, come back to this, that Buffy would ever find out? You're like, this will resonate through history.

This seismic historical. events will rain down for generations. Much like both of the orgasms that Giles gave Joyce on the hood of that car rippled and coursed through her. I felt sure that the impact of that moment would ripple and course through the rest of the season. Easiest pick yet. That was with the apologies to the homie Balthasar. That was actually the easiest bit. Um, um, some, some runners up. Everything in bad girls. Faith and Buffy dancing. Buffy jump mounting Angel, like when he comes into the bronze. Yes.

Very good stuff. This is a pretty horny stretch of episodes. I have no complaints. In the Zepo, when the car obsessed woman enters Zander's life and Cordelia and Zander have just been arguing inside of the donut shop and she's been, you know, belittling him. And Xander, as Cordelia is watching, says of, you know, an answer to how does it handle, how does the car handle. Like a dream about warm, sticky things. Great. Oh, I'm up. I'm suddenly married. I've just never been up with people before. That was kind of interesting to me, actually.

I guess it, I wasn't shocked that Zander and Cordelia had not had sex because obviously that would have been, we would have known if that had happened. But it is interesting that they didn't, actually. Let's see, what else? Oh, enemies. The Le Benquette de Amelia. Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of eating. Oh, my God. This was iconic in enemies.

This is just great. One of my favorite Angel and Buffy scenes yet. I thought it was about food. Well, there was food. I just don't like to rub your nose in it. Suddenly wondering where that expression comes from. Holy shit. And just Angel's delivery of I've seen.

I've been a long time since I've been to the movies. They've changed. Really killed me. That was great. I also think in enemies when Angel compliments Joyce's hair. Great stuff. Also, when he's like,

we never tried chains. And then, of course, in episode 20, when Joyce goes to visit him the way that she looks at the chains on the wall. Very important. Oh, Oz and Willow having sex for the first time

in graduation day, part one, as Amy the rat watches. And then they have sex again and Oz is his fan. They do. They do. And they're late for graduation because they were having sex.

They sure are. Good for them. Good for them. And then I think as we mentioned, the like crumpling of the metal container, Angel just like slurping on Buffy in the finale. It's just very impactful. All right. Best use of Jonathan.

Are you going with earshot or prom or are they inextricable? I'm going with earshot. Okay. Because this scene, this episode was not written by Joss, but Joss wrote this scene. And I think about this speech all the time. It's a Buffy speech, but like Jonathan's in the scene, so I'm counting it. My life happens to, on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it. sometimes more than I can handle and it's not just mine. Every single person down there is ignoring

your pain because they're too busy with their own. The beautiful ones. The popular ones. The guys that pick on you. Everyone, if you could hear what they were feeling, the loneliness, the confusion, it looks quiet down there. It's not. It's deafening. You know, I could have taken that by now. But my life happens to you on occasion suck beyond the telling of it is like an iconic Buffy line to me because it is like this speech is beautiful and thoughtful and all and stuff like that. but my life happens to you on occasions suck beyond the telling of it is such like a buffy way to deliver that sentiment. I just, I really, like, I have questions about this like cobwebby clock tower

that exists inside of the Sunnydale High School. Like, what is that doing there? Why is it so derelict? I don't know. Why are the windows all boarded up? But, you know, Jonathan being like, oh, yeah, sure, being like hot and blonde, you know, and athletic is like, a real burden. And she's like, guess what?

My life is also full of pain and mystery. Yeah. That's my pick as well. In part because I have the prom scene, as already mentioned, is my most emotional moment, so I didn't want to pick the exact same thing for two of the categories. But we don't get that moment without this. You know, you don't get Jonathan saying most of the people here have been saved by you or helped by you at one time or another without what happens in the clock tower between them.

So, great one. And I also love in that clock tower sequence, like he's so shiny, like greasy shiny. And like this like his like striped shirt is just all like, like, Danny. Strong is so good and like just the whole Jonathan thing really works for me all of it. We're not done with Jonathan. It's great. Okay. Most 1999 thing. I already spoiled my pick, which is just all of the, the whole Wesley Cordelia thing is so of its time to me. So I'll throw out since I already spoiled that that was my pick. The number of times that taping things on a VCR is invoked or comes into play here. Cordelia's like zoom in. He's like, I can't. And then like pause and he's like, guys, it's just a, oh yeah, okay.

I can do that. And in the Zepo, Bob, after finding out he's been dead for eight months. And then there's the Walker, Texas Ranger, you've been taping on Ryan Jack's like, every year. And in doppelgangland, one of the things that sets Willow really sets Willow off is the moment when Zander and Buffy come up to her and ask if she didn't remember to tape biography last Friday. She's like, yeah, God, yes, fuck. I did remember to tape biography. Any biography was very important to me.

And the tape and all the tape stuff and. ROM is just, yeah, so VCRs and cassettes. What about you? Other than the vinyl pants, I don't mean to, like, bring it down or two here, but I do think, like, the delay and release date is, like, a very 1999 thing. Just, like, a very, of specifically that year. All right, Giles is... Not Buffy's crimped hair.

You're not going with that. Nope. We didn't talk really about the microbangs enough last pod. So what had happened was, if I recall correctly, Sarah Michelle Geller had done cruel intentions where she dyed her hair brown. And then they were trying to... to re-bleechify her as fast as possible for Buffy, and they, like, overcooked her hair. So, like, the microbangs, but also just, like, the shag.

Like, there's just, like, a lot of, like, there's these bright blonde money pieces in the front of her hair at the beginning of the season. And that just, like, killed her hair. And so the microbangs. And then the, like, we saw in the clip from Enemies, she's got this, like, real shag cut at that point because her hair was just, like, dead. And they were doing the best they could because they overblonded her. So it's tough.

tough moment for Buffy's hair. Sarah Michelle Geller's like, I learned some lessons about what you can and cannot do moving from blonde to Burnett and back again. Giles's most dad moment. You go first. I have too many contenders. I can't go first. I think this is really easy for me.

I have like 15. In this back half, Giles seeing Buffy and Angel dance. Yeah, that's a great one. He's just the best, isn't he? Yeah. I just love him and would like to have sex with him. I'm going to run you through some contenders

Some are very heartfelt Some are more like dad humor The Zepo Did you eat all the jelly Did you want a jelly I always have a jelly I'm always the one that says Let's have a jelly in the mix

Great stuff Bad girls Wesley telling Giles He has an emotional problem And Giles like real full Star Wars energy here My attachment to the Slare is not a problem consequences. This is another heartfelt one. Buffy's talking about faith. I'm not going to give up on her. And Giles says so sincerely, then I think she stands a chance. Enemies. Oh, I love this.

And enemies, the book of essential stuff with the demon. A couple different moments where Giles is like, the state of demondom. It's what's going on here? When he says, demons have your money. Whatever happened to the still meeting heart of a virgin, no one has any standards anymore. And then later, he's like, again, see, no standards. Any self-respecting demons should be living in a pit of filth or a nice crypt. Some, the no standard stuff is real dadcore to me. Ear shot, a new fabric softener can cause irritation. Wonderful. And then we already,

graduation day part two, we already talked about the coffee tea thing, but tea is soothing, I wish it should be tense. And then handing Buffy the diploma, I'd say you'd earned it. I'd say you earned it. So dadcore. My pick is from prom, as well, though. before the dance, when Giles learns that Angel's not taking Buffy to the dance and that he's

leaving town and says Buffy, I'm sorry, I don't really know what to say. I understand that this sort of thing requires ice cream of some kind. Like, I just love that. Everything in that whole stretch where Buffy is just like, I am not going to think I'm stepping on one of my later categories. But like, I'm not going to let my friends be deprived of this night, even though I'm not going to have it anymore. And the fact that Giles is somebody who she's, like, able to open up to here. And then he just wants to find a way to comfort her, even though there's like, there is no comfort. It was just lovely. He's the best. They're the best. Jalel's the most daddy moment. And you have a clip for this. I do. And I'll be watching it on

loop for the rest of my life, Carlos. How did it go? Heath, did quite well on the obstacle field. Still a little sloppy, though. You feel up to taking Buffy out, or shall I? Now, the most important thing is that he has a lollipop in his hand. And in this entire scene, he is twirling the lollipop or sucking on the lollipop. And I found it to be. Mesmerizing?

Life-changing? Life-altering. DNA remathing. Life-altering and its impact. Okay, great. He is so sexy holding that lollipop and licking that lollipop and putting Wesley in his place. That lollipop and putting Wesley in his face. It is important and powerful and memorable, and I'm thankful for it.

You've already written a really convincing dissertation on Giles in a tuck, so I will let you have that. And I will give it to Giles stabbing the mayor with the rapier. That's my runner-up. Yeah. Incredible. Again, I'm perturbed by how often this is a violent pick for me, but the rapier moment's really good. The instantaneous reach and stab. Yeah.

Like, because the mayor is attack, that's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm going to eat her attacking Buffy and Giles. It's just like, I'm going to kill you now. Yeah. Also, he does it left-handed. Yeah. It's just really hot. Yeah. Great.

All right. When Willow cries, we cry. I feel like there's only really one answer for this. What is it? Oh, no. Is it her crying over Xander, sleeping with faith and consequences? She goes into the bathroom stall. And just like.

Commits one of the great sins, I think, which is sitting on a public toilet in your clothes. Yeah. Oh, no. For me, it's a no, but I did find it very touching. What if you put the seat cover down on? I think even if you're just there for a cry, you've got to take your pants off and put a seat cover down. I'm sorry, you have to. Pants off crying jags in the bathroom.

Is this a coping mechanism at work or in school? It's entirely possible. The hands don't crying jacks. No comment. That is one of my two contenders. this is not actually a when Willow like cries she's not literally crying but I think the emotion is so forceful here in bad girls when she um it's when Buffy is like it's more complicated than that and Willow says it's that exact thing that's taking me off it's this whole Slayer's only attitude since when wouldn't I understand you talk to me about everything it's like all of a sudden I'm not cool enough for you just because I can't kill things with my bare hands I was just like fucking get it and I believe she's wearing overalls when she says it The overall display this season from Willow is astonishing. There's a real like Mario-coded aspect to a lot of it because there's a lot of like red shirts.

Red with the overalls, yeah. The blue jeans, but it's working for her. Best guest star. So I texted you last night to confirm the eligibility, which we have been lax with, but in theory is more than one episode, but fewer than four, for the stretch of episodes in question. Sure. So I am picking Anya, even though I now know that she will be around for much longer. Aneas, Aeneas agreed. Four episodes across season three and three episodes in the stretch of story that we're covering today.

She's in Doppelangland, the prom, and graduation day parlor. Emma Cawfield, baby. She's the best. So when I was trying to convince a friend of mine in college to watch Buffy and I was trying to explain to her, and it was, I think, season five, in season five, I think season four, season five. And it was explaining the Aenea character because she's just like a source of, like, a lot of humor. going forward in the show. And my friend who was, like, really into Star Trek, she's like, oh, she's the data. And I was like, yeah, she is the data.

She's just the sort of like, I'm a demon stuck in this. Like, I don't understand your human ways what is going on here sort of stuff. So like the post-wish, I just thought this was really smart on the heels of the wish to deploy her as like, okay, now I'm stuck. After my whole long life that I've lived, I'm stuck as like a teenager with these other fucking teenagers. What a nightmare. I love that, but to the humor point, I got such a kick out of the Xander.

The promposo. Yeah. Like, men are evil, will you go with me? It's so funny. And Zander's like, I wonder why not? Like, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with your sales pitch. That killed me. And then coming, when she goes back and is like trying to convince him to leave town with her

and laments that he won't and kind of laments the state of romance and the way that romance makes you feel. It's horrible. No wonder I used to get so much work. But when he's like, my friend's lives are on the line and she gets mad and then says, fine, I hope you die. And he walks away and she says, aren't we going to kiss? It's like incredible.

Anya. Really good. Really, really good. I'm giving it to In the Zepo. So Michael Cudlitz, who plays one of the zombies in the Zepo, is my friend Paul's uncle, Uncle Mike. And so he's in Bannon Brothers. very famously in The Walking Dead.

But before he showed up, before he was like a series regular in The Walking Dead, it was more like this where Michael Cudlitz would just like crop up occasionally. And we would just go like, oh, it's Uncle Mike. Like that's what we would do. Like the Leo pointing me before the Leo pointing me, we were just sort of like, ah, it's Uncle Mike's in the stretch of episode. So I got to give it to Michael Cudlitz. Great stuff.

Best High School is Hell metaphor. This is the end of this category. I guess you could do college as hell. That's certainly on the offing in season four. But it's graduation, the end of the era of an era on this show. It's a high school show and it won't be that. Like, I have a real issue with high school shows when they go beyond that. This is why, like, season three, for many reasons, is the peak for me because this is a high school show.

Yeah. We have a really organic, like, setting in place for everyone to constantly interact with each other. It's like, it's not the same when you, well, the bronze. It's like, it's not the same when you go to college. Like, even if all you went to college with all of your high school friends, you would not have, like, the same class. classes, the campus is more sprawling, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And so, like, that the setting that lets everyone naturally and constantly interact is gone. Um, angels gone. Cordelia's gone. Like, and those are in many ways, like, integral to me to, like, what the show is.

So that's not really, I mean, graduation day is the best high school as hell metaphor. But, like, I just wanted to like, memorialize this, this, this setting, this premise of the show. I have a real, um, I'm, I'm very intrigued to see. how it feels in college years. I was a real saved by the bell to college years kid. I just loved it. It made me feel so excited to grow up and like have a new haircut in a common room in a dorm that like you then realize nobody is ever going to have a common room like that for it's for the whole floor. It's not for just a few of you. But I love saved by the college years. I lived in a quad in the dorm. So we did have a common room that was just for freshman year. Yeah. Immediately. Yeah, we were in a quad.

Damn, California. It wasn't like every room had that. But like most of those. were doubles, but we were in a quad. So it was like two, two girls in each, like, tiny closet bedroom. And then, I mean, it wasn't like the common room and say about the college years, but like we had like a living room. Very memorable cabinets. That's very nice. Like we had a, like, all of our desks. Like basically the beds fit in the like closet bedroom and then all of our desks were out here. But we had like beanbags and like everyone from the floor would like coming and hang out in our room because we got it. In Syracuse, we got it by junior year. The freshman year, we, and this felt like the height of luxury. Syracuse had something called

the split double. which was instead of just one open room where you are seeing each other and do everything. Too much. There was a divider that went three quarters of the way up the middle of the room, and it was depending on the dorm, either the closets or your desks. So you had like some privacy, even though it was just one room. Well, I will say at UC Davis, where I matriculated, you didn't live in the dorms after freshman year.

So the dorm experience was like a freshman year experience, and then you had to live off campus. unless you were an R.A., which I was one year. I was an R.A. So I love knowing this about you. Did you not know I was an R.A? It sounds new to me, but it's also possible I just forgot because my brain is melting. That doesn't seem true. I'm the one who forgets everything. I'm the one where you're like, you already did the notes for this episode.

I was like, really did I? That was a good moment this week. Carl's like, you already sent me your clips. I was like, I did. This is great stuff. I'm like, to me, this is total coin flip between prom and graduation day. I guess it has to be graduation day. How could it not be? And, you know, weirdly, like, the mayor's speech, I thought, really captured something. It's going to do the whole thing.

That was so funny. Journeys end and what is a journey? It's just the distance travel time spent. No, it's what happens on the way. Like, you know, that was really lovely. But in prom, I, man, first of all, the comedy of what's that a demon and Buffy saying, a prom dress that will is thinking? Hilarious. Can you ever get your head out of the hell mouth?

I'd be delighted to. But Buffy telling Angel, I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school. moment thing, but I'm certainly not going to let some subhuman ruin it for the rest of them. I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing. Like hit me so hard. That was really, really devastating. Buffy, uh, and then she does. Doing her slayage, not really because like she leaves Tucker alive with like one hellhound still in

the room, like very curious. But she just sort of like shakes her prom dress out in his garment bag and is like, and then shows up looking like a million bucks. As always. Buffy Vampire Slayer. All right. a cringiest low-budget moment. This has to be the mayor.

The mayor, head splitting in two or the snake, but I don't know how close you watched it and I kind of wish I had clipped it, but in earshot, there's a fight with the lunch lady, which is one of the worst on double moments of the entire life because it's just like a grown-ass man in the lunch lady's dress getting hit, and it's like really funny.

So I also want to put that out there. Fantastic inclusion, an worthy inclusion. I just like, bro looks like a MSP. paint project here. And as we were always saying, bring back the puppets. Oh, bring back the puppets. Definitely should have been a puppet. When he says, well, gosh, it's like, we're all thinking it too.

Well, gosh. And we had gone so far. Like, we had really come a long way since, like, season one and season two in season three. And then they're just sort of like gingerbread happens. And then this is worse than gingerbread. You'll see him's like snaking through the hall. It's pretty tough.

This is a worst backslide than Cordelia's for sure. I agree. really agree. All right, Angel's broodiest, I've been to hell moment. I have a clip for this. You still my girl. Always. With not a lot of love and a deep amount of disrespect to J.K. Rowling.

This is my like, always. Are you still my girl always? This is it. This is it for me. Oh, man. That's a great one. His fate looks so sad there. Oh, my God.

Are you still my girl? Boy. Right? Like, I'm breaking up with you or like, we, oh, no. that's when Buffy's like, we need some distance. It's actually like a little choppy, I would say at the end of the season. Buffy's like all of a sudden like, I need some distance after enemies. And then he's like, hey, actually, maybe we should have some distance. She's like, what do you mean? So it's a little up and down, but are you still my girl? Always. That's really, really good. Really broody. And then also, I'm sorry, dancing to wild horses at prom. As I've mentioned a few times, my pals of the buffering podcast put on a Buffy prom. And they play wild horses like no fewer than five times. at the buffering prom that they do.

Great stuff. Yeah. Just, I mean, it's really everything that is a part of the multi-episode. Like, I have to leave town to get my own spin-off. But also I'll, you know, say that you deserve more than this freak show. Protracted breakup over a handful of episodes. Shortly after Joyce's visit in prom when he says, you deserve more, you deserve something outside of demons and darkness,

I mean you should be with someone who could take you into the light. That made me sad You have no idea how fast it goes, Buffy I thought that was very impactful When the I want my life to be with you, I don't That is just we're fully in Two Sox, Nymeria

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm gonna make you go away Because Yeah Territory, but get out of here Telling Buffy that he's gonna leave town Without saying goodbye And graduation day part two

Was just all time stuff though It's like the mist And then he's gone I'm just gonna go You understand? It's like not really. No, actually. Do you feel like that's the writers being like, we couldn't really write this scene? So let's just do Standing in the Mist. It'll be really impactful. It is. It's powerful.

All right. Funniest moment, you have a clip. Buffy? When were you going to tell me? All right, busted. I didn't think you'd miss them. You were accepted to Northwestern University? It's an asshole. I can nelph it. I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. Oh, God. Okay. Thank you for that. You mentioned Anya's prom proposal, which is very, very important. I'm going to also give it this. For a thousand years, I wielded the powers of the wish.

I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe. And now I'm stuck at Sunnydale High, mortal child. And a flunking math. Amacophil's delivery of all this stuff is so good. Incredible stuff. I have two Xander runner-runner.

runners off. Oh, please. In the Zepout, this is more of an editing pick, but the cut from Zander saying, we'll handle it together. You know, I'm here for you, just tell me what to do,

and then we cut to him ordering the donuts. It killed me. That was so, so, so good. And I really liked in enemies when Zander says he's bribed Willie for the demon's location and then says, is the council reimbursed for that kind of stuff.

Giles is like, did you get a receipt? Just love that. It's kind of like exchange that they could have had at literally any point. Just very humorous. I have to because of my professional background shout out face not going to be on the cover of sanity fair obviously I thought of you thank you um Willow waving in her vampire willow outfit and Oz's face like when he when he understands what's going on here but her a little like this I believe it's in the credits like going forward so like it's a a key little moment yeah well did you try looking inside the sofa in hell incredible very important he's going to do the entire speech um and I don't know And then this, I just love it when they let David Boranos be funny, which is very rarely, right? And Buffy, be careful with a gift.

A lot of things that, as you said, a lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be payful. Like, say, immortality, exactly. I'm dying to get rid of it. Funny. I'm a funny guy. It's really good stuff. Great stuff.

He also made me laugh, too, with the, in choices, you never take me anywhere new. What about that fire demon nest in that cave at the beach? I thought that was a nice change of face. That was very funny. I like that. Wesley's intro. I won't read the exchange because I can't do it justice. But, like, Giles is just sort of like...

Giles and Buffy are just sort of, like, sitting there. You know, like, is he evil? Not in the strictest sense. But just sort of, like, Wesley's just, like, yammering on about Gwendolyn Post and all this or stuff like that. And Giles just, like, already done. Yeah. Day one, he's done.

Or, like, when he orders Buffy to do something and she's like, when Giles does it, I usually get a cookie. Like, it's just very good. Oh, man. Great stuff. Most emotional moment. I have a clip. Class. Class protector.

Class protector. Guys, take a moment to deal with this. We survived. It's a hell of a battle. Not the battle. High school. We're taking a moment. And we're done.

Always undercut with a joke, right? But as I've mentioned a million times, I was the same age. So, like, this is when I graduated high school. And so it's like 1999. It's a real moment in time. Even if I did not see this episode until July. But also everyone fighting and some of them dying, Larry in Harmony. And like all the kids like, you know, getting to defend themselves and not just being like, you know, vampire fodder as they've been for vampire demon fodder as they've been for three seasons.

I don't understand what's happening. But like I have some agency in the role to play this. I got very emotional to close it closing on the poster. Sunnydale High, 99. The future is out. I was like, God. Yeah. Do you want to talk more about class protector moment?

I think we've hit it. It's just incredibly, incredibly touching Buffy Summers, Class Protector and the look of gratitude on her face. Really, really wonderful. Really, really wonderful. And her response to that Giles moment, I had no idea that children of mass could be so gracious. And she says every now and then people can surprise you. Like, when so much of your experience is about people, disappointing you, you know, that the thing they reveal about themselves is like a letdown or a

scandal or an affront for the surprise to be an empowering and like collective embrace is just lovely, perfect little moment. I also love how it starts. We're not good friends. Most of us never found the time to get to know you, but that doesn't mean we haven't noticed you. You know, and I think for people who feel like they went through high school, like, unnoticed and stuff like that, this is just like a fantasy fulfillment moment of like everyone's

like, we noticed you. Doing all these things in the shadows. What an incredible season of television. It's great. I'm excited for season four. College years. When are you going to start? Do you think?

Got a few things going on. This weekend next weeker I would describe as a demon-laden hellskey. So, but not this weekend, but next weekend. So the, what date is that? Let's see. I'm on my computer. I don't know where the kids. calendar is the 27th?

Friday, February, 27th? You could just say soon. That weekend. The weekend, February into March. We're going to get into season four. Anything you're like, what are you most looking forward to? Giles.

Giles. Sort of embarrassing, but it's true. Does he have sex with anybody in season four? Yes. Oh my God. Is season four when he plays the guitar? I think that's five. Or no, I think maybe end of season.

Yeah, season four. Actually, it is season four. I can't wait. And I know there's a very big episode coming in season four, so I'm excited about that. I know if some big things happen in season four, some big characters, just can't like. Spike. It's back. Hell yeah.

Let's fucking go. Welcome to the opening credits, James Marsters. All right. We'll be back with season four, about the Vampire Slayer. Thank you to Carlos Schuhruboger for sitting in this very small room with us. We'll be back with Talk the Throne. in our sort of usual space. But if all goes according to plan,

we will be in our new studios. I don't want to jinx it. Maybe I just did. Tempting the fucking fates here. We are allegedly going to be in our new studio space next week when we're back with our deep dive, et cetera, et cetera. So we'll see you then.

Thanks to Arjuna Ramka Powell for his work. Always. He's just juggling schedules constantly. Thank you for Tua Jomey a dinner. Great work on some. some deep dive clips this week on the social. Go check it out on the Instagram reel. Mallory running down all of Dunk's hits when we got to see the footage for that.

It's a really incredible stuff. It's a very chill conversation in the comments on that post. Oh, yeah. Really, really, everyone's viving with us. Nobody understands irony. It's fine. Thank you to Donald for helping out today. Exactly.

And thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you. My darling. Joanna Robinson Pod Protector. We'll see you. Bye. Pay off your home. Travel for life.

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