House of R - ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 5 Rewatch (Part 2)

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

Mal and Jo are back in Spike’s crypt to continue their ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ rewatch! This time, they’re breaking down the second half of Season 5 (Episode 11, “Triangle,” through Episode 22, “The Gift”). They dive deep into two of the best episodes of the series, discuss what worked so well about this stretch of episodes, and more! Plus, they give out some superlatives! (00:00) Intro(06:31) Opening Snapshot(21:55) Our favorites: “The Body”(01:17:04) Our favorites: “The Gift”(01:52:55) Superlatives Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducer: Carlos ChiribogaProduction Assistant: Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

and welcome to an incredibly special episode of House of Our. I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today, no one can stand against her blindingly scrumptious luminescence. It's Mallory Rubin. Oh, most glamorous yet tasteful one. My glorificous. Joanna Robinson. We're just each other's minions today is what it sounds like. As we discuss the back half of Buffy Season 5 right after this. Now more than ever, quality matters, but so does price. At Marshalls, you don't have to choose. You can get the good stuff for less, the stuff that lasts, because there's no point in tightening your belt if it's just going to break when you do.

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Can you believe it? The day is here. Unbelievable. It is Buffy Season 5, Part 2. This is it. We're apexing here. I cannot believe we're here. This is an incredible time to be alive.

Quick programming reminders. In addition to wrapping up this Buffy coverage, we, of course, doing our ongoing lanterns. That's right. Coverage, so you can look for those if we get our ducks in a row every week on Mondays, is the plan. Yes. Next week is a very, very special week. It is Mallory Rubin's birthday. For a minute.

I was like, what are you talking about? I have a debilitating migraine, as you know, and Carlos knows and Jacob knows and Scott knows, and now everyone knows. But I told you, like the onion that flowers at the bronze, the spiked. so loves to consume. That is how I will, I think that will be my experience, my transformation while potting about this wonderful half-season of TV with you. But not knowing about my own birthday, not an encouraging start. We're going to celebrate your birthday next week. Yeah. With what you have branded as Mallory Rubin's pivot to horror. That's right. You're turning a certain age. Turning 40, the big 4-0. And you've decided I'm an adult now,

I shall brave horror, right? I, you know, I feel like I am just missing out on a few big things recently that everybody has gotten to share together. And so I just wanted to dip my toe. I'm not going to force myself to explore certain horror films that I know are just not for me. Like, I'm going to ease in. I'm going to do it in a way that makes sense. You've already watched a couple. But because I really want to see Resident Evil.

Yes. It made both of our fall height meters. We talked about it. I want to pod about it. I want to see it with you. I want to watch it from probably your lap. Okay. we haven't officially committed to that.

In my lap, your head sort of tucked into my neck. We will be seeing it together, so I think that's probably how it's going to go. And in order to a box of chicken tenders and watermelon sour patch kids clutched in your hands. I don't know if it'll be a... No emotional support tendies? Well, is it a movie that I'm going to want to eat during? I don't know.

I don't know. That said, I do love a tendie at the theaters, you know. But in order to get ready for Resident Evil, because it's such a big movie. moment, I thought, okay, let me some immersion therapy. Like, let's prep, you know, and so I kind of feel like Buffy might have loosened the jar for you a little bit. A lot of the stuff we've done recently, I feel like, you know, there's, uh, I can't remember any of them now. There's, you know, and also this. And but, you know, Buffy is definitely been things. Buffy is comedy horror and there is some horror fixed up. Yeah. I mean, stranger things,

which is literally made for children and yet multiple times. While we did stranger things, we were like, was this too scary for you? There have been a lot of things over the last few years where I thought, you know what, that wasn't too scary for me, actually. I could watch the show for children and I was okay. You're so brilliant. As you know, I love shows for children. That's one of those bracket complimentary things, as the meme goes.

So I decided because Resident Evil is directed by, of course, Zach Kragor, okay, let me watch weapons, which I hadn't seen. He directed an adored film. So I did that. If you want my instant reaction, we'll share all the thoughts on the actual podcast next week. But I've decided to chronicle my journey on Instagram as well from underneath a blanket, a cocoon of a comforting cocoon. Flashback to your last of us. Couch dispatches.

Very reminiscent of that. Dispatches from the couch. These are even more poorly lit, I would say. And as you know, I have not yet found the time to post the Instagram real, which I think probably for most people in the modern age takes like four minutes. And for me, took like much longer than that. You know, I was like, ooh, subtitles. What a journey. I have watched Nospheratu, as you know.

You and Adam are the only people who know that. And I fill my reaction immediately after. I just haven't posted it yet. Some takes coming on that one. Wonderful experience. So far, I'm like two for two. These were a blast. So next up is...

Next up is obsession. Okay. That's this weekend. And we will see how that goes or if it breaks me, and I just recant on this pledge before the pie. Yeah, if we just like if it grinds who's screeching holes. Perhaps. Could be.

Could be. Who knows? Backrooms? That's on the list as well. I don't know if I'll get to that before Resident Evil. given that we're down to just a few days before we see that. And this is NFL opening week. You seem quite busy.

Drake may through three interceptions last night. Just want to get that on the public record. Is he on your team? No. But he's the quarterback of the New England Patriots. And so it was just a wonderful experience for everyone who's not a Patriots fan. Okay. Yeah.

Great. All right. Well, that was a part of your reminders in a roundabout way. Speaking of which, if you want to hear more of Mallory Rubin's football takes, she was our guest co-host on the PrestiTV pod this week. That's right. Michael Waldron of Chad Powers and Loki fame. What a treat. And Avengers fame and Dr. Strange fame came in to chat with us. So that was phenomenal. We love Michael Waldron. So it was wonderful. But like I would say even if you haven't watched Chad Powers, that was just like a great conversation about how he thinks about story. And this is one of the sort of, I don't know if I would say like chief architects, but like a significant architect of the current like MCU era. So, you know, a great, a great brain to pick. And I have. an absolutely wonderful time. I had a really good time with him. Yeah. That's over on the Prestise TV feed. Thank you so much for doing that, Mallory, and

thanks for asking me. Saving me from embarrassing myself about football. So follow us on social. Why not? At House of Our Pod. Yep. Do it. Wow. The timing. Subscribe to the pod. Email us hoppins and drag. It's at email.com. We appreciate all of your emails. Yes. This is Buffy Season 5, Episode 11 Triangle through episode 22, The Gifts. So that is your spoiler warning through the end of Buffy season 5. Sheesh.

Let's go now to our opening snapshot. I love the custom. I know. It's spooky. It really is. It's great. Carlos, this is his favorite season of Buffy. It's true.

He's very excited for the episode. All right. So Buffy season 5, as we mentioned last time, September 26, 2000, to May 22nd, 2001. The episodes included to Today are triangle, checkpoint, blood ties, crush, I was made to love you, the body, forever, intervention, tough love, spiral, the weight of the world, and the gift. We will be doing a sort of slightly drilled down examination of the body and the gift, which Mallory identified as her two favorite episodes of the back half of the season. And, you know, the body, unsurprisingly a big one for you, but the finale really hit for you. Of this season.

Yeah. Okay, great. We're going to talk about it. Before we get into that, I just wanted to hit a couple things really briefly. First of all, we've been doing sort of periodically as we go these sort of creator spotlights talking about the impactful creatives who have joined the show as it is gone on and sort of shaped the show. And I thought I would shout out Stephen Denight, who joins in season five. Blood Ties is his first writing credit, which is a big one to just like drop this guy into. and he also does spiral, I believe, in this season.

He goes on to work on Angel, Smallville, Dollhouse, like the Spartacus verse. And then, of course, Netflix's Daredevil Season 1 is sort of a big reason why we know his name. He took over Daredevil Season 1 from a different Buffy guy, Drew Goddard, who hasn't joined the team on Buffy yet. And he was replaced by a different Buffy guy, Doug Petrie.

So they really wanted that Buffy vibe over there on Netflix. Netflix's Daredevil season one and two for sure. Let me tell you something. I've watched my share of Spartacus in the day as well. Have you? I didn't know. The original run I watched every second of. That's his baby pretty much.

Very entertaining. Are you feeling any Spartacus vibes in watching the Knights of Byzantium on their horses run down a Winnebago? Let me say from the start here. Thought this was an incredible half season of television? The Knights are not why. No. Not our faith. No one's faith. Stephen and I wrote what I would say is the most controversial about the episode of all time, which is in season six. We have that to look forward to.

Okay. So I don't, obviously don't know what that refers to. And I won't say what I think it might be, but I do have a guess based on a spoiler I have for season six. I'm not going to say it's the mic, but I'll tell you later. Will you remember to tell me? Well, I'll just type it in the dock right now. I'm going to do it right now. We won't say it on the mic. Yeah. I would say that's part of it, but it's not the. only reason why. Okay. But yes. Um, which is, which is, which is why that episode is like

so insane, because that's not even like the only reason why that episode is, uh, as tough as it is. Okay. But what's really interesting, like, you know, having someone joined season five. Yeah. He is a huge Buffy fan. So a Buffy fan, when Stephen Knight talks about joining Buffy, he's like, I cried because this is my favorite show on television. And he had very few writing credits, but I think he just really vived with Joss in terms of their, hey, we're white guys of a certain age who read the same comics, et cetera, et cetera, and have the same sensibility. His spec script that he wrote was, which I think is really interesting. I haven't read it, but the concept is really interesting.

It's like, it's a one-off episode where Xander gets the Slayer powers. And his conclusion, the way Stephen Denight describes it is he's like, it's basically explaining why men cannot be Slayers. And I was just like, oh, that's interesting. Intriguing. Intriging. Gotta keep Xander in the funny syphilis. It's got to be the guy.

It's a regular guy. Marty Knoxon's side note. We've already talked about Marty Knox and as a creator, but she really sort of steps in a bit more to her power this season. She writes and directs two different episodes into the woods, which was not our favorite episode of all time. But also Forever, which I actually really, really liked in this season. And which she has the unenviable task of. I mean, the enviable joyous task of writing Riley off the show, but then the unenviable task of following the body. Forever is the episode that comes after the body, so she had to do that.

And then she will take over as executive producer on season six. Joss is kind of out of the picture for season six for the most part, except for one very important episode. Oh, interesting. He's launching Firefly on Fox. And so it's so funny because Firefly, I'm a huge Buffy fan. I watched every single second of Angel. I did watch the Firefly premiere, but I was not a huge firefly. Firefly fan when it came out and everyone was so confused why because it seemed like it should be right at my alley.

And I was just like, Joss left my favorite show. Oh, sure. Yeah, of course. To go work on Firefly. And I, you know, I have come to enjoy season six more every time I rewatch it. But at the time, everyone in the fandom is like, this doesn't feel like the same show. And you really felt the absence of Joss. And I've come to appreciate that it doesn't feel like the same show. I've come to appreciate some of the avenues it goes down that I don't think Joss would have been capable of going down. So like we can talk about that. that when we get there. Interesting. But I felt abandoned by John's deep resentment toward Nathan Filiana's character named Mal. As you know, I was in. I mean, I enjoy Firefly.

I really love Serenity. But I had complicated feelings about it at the time. I was just resentful of it. And then before we get into sort of our episode mini deep dives, glory is Ben. Ben is Glory? Where do you net out on Glory as a big bad? Mixed positive. Mixed positive. But the, so like we talked about in season five part one, I think that glory, the performance, the character, the connections between Glory and Buffy, the fashion forward, my minions all want to fuck me, all that. It's just incredibly entertaining. It's a very, very, very entertaining, watchable character.

I would say the minions in the back half are particularly just. The minions are on one in the best possible way. Yeah. We gave us some flowers to our guy, Drag, last pot. Shout out Jinks. Jinks is my guy. Stealth MVP in the season. Jinks is kind of my guy.

With love and respect to drag, Jinks like steals the show when he shows up. One of the things, I don't, this isn't an exact science, but I'm keeping a casual mental log as I'm taking notes on each half of the season as we do the pod of like, whose quotes am I writing down the most?

Jinks really in the running this season. I mean, obviously it still was Anya and Spike at the end of the day. Like, how could it not be? but basically everything Jing said. I'm like... Isn't it interesting to think about the role that Ani and Spike play on the show

and how clearly the writers just love writing for them and to think that they were not series regulars. I know it's wild. I mean, Any doesn't, I think, enter the credits until season five and then, you know, Spike only sort of partway through season four. So they're... And I always think of those air, like the high school era

and then the post-high school era with this sort of like weird one college season interregnum and like where they actually went to college. Yeah, exactly. Buffy quits college in this half and you're like, I forgot you were even going. I honestly was glad that it was like formally acknowledged, right?

And it felt important. And a nice professor for one. So that's really nice. But yeah, the way in which Ania and Spike are so crucial to the success of the show. Indelible. Having them come in like mid run is just a fascinating. And it just like really changes the entire.

flavor. Because like, you know, Zander and Willow and Oz and a bunch of, and Cordelia, certainly, were like the quippy, funny, charismatic characters, whatever. But as Willow and Zander's arcs sort of like deepen and darken and all these other things, we still need that effervescence and the constant sort of like wit and witticism. And it comes from them. Sorry, we were talking about glory, though, allegedly. Well, perhaps notable that the conversation went to other characters. Because I think, so, you know, it's a very entertaining and watchable villain. And I think some of the stuff that we get to hear Glory say to Buffy, you know, you may be tiny queen and vampire world, but to me, you're a bug. We get that sense of perspective.

And the heft and the might of glory, obviously, where that builds to in the season with Buffy confronting the fact that actually, for real, this is not a winnable fight in the way that the other ones have been. That's all great. The comedy is great. I thought that the, in terms of, especially because, you know, one of the best moments of this stretch of episodes, the season, the series, and the history of television was something I had already heard out of context completely, but now have the full appreciation of like, Anya, if you are not human or you weren't and then you are grappling with what it means to be human, how do you navigate that? And it's just breathtaking in the body. to put glory in the like noxious version of that at the end when the veil is fading between Ben and Glory. She's feeling like infected with human feelings. Yeah, exactly. And like, you know, this is what the poets are always going on about. It's one of those things where I think logically that's an interesting intention to give us multiple characters who are like,

I have to face what it means to be human and something about it is uncomfortable. But you have this like historic high in one area and then glory doing a version of it that doesn't quite measure up. but I like the intention of it. Honestly, like, I just think the Ben part doesn't work. Yeah. It's like he's not quite the Riley level drip, but he is like a little bit of a snooze to me. And I think that it's not in a show that typically does a, I think, really great job, given that almost every week, even in the big bad of it all, there's new canon, new lore, a new demon or element that we are seeking to quickly establish and understand.

And I think this tipped a bit for me from building the mystery and waiting and biding our time into like how much sense did this all make. There attempts to keep Glory at Bay is. And the sort of bullshit explanation they come up with is sort of glory wondering like, oh, if Ben's humanity was what was keeping her from killing Buffy this entire time when really she should have killed her in the very first fight they have this season. It's always a challenge for a Buffy season. in the, let's talk about the better plotted ones, when you have the master, okay, he's physically trapped, you know, in season one, he can't get out, he sends so many people after Buffy, but the master's trapped until he ascends, right? Yeah.

And then, you know, the Spike, Drusilla, Angel of it all, like, that's incredibly complicated, nuanced and wonderful. And then the mayor. God tear. I mean, incredible and faith, mayor and faith as sort of like this duo in season three. And then let's not talk about the initiative. But, like, it's always a thing where they're like, we meet. the mayor a couple times, you know, we meet him. We're like, oh, this guy's a demon. And then he, like,

becomes this more serious. That's the rhythm of the show. When you haven't, Glory's already at the peak of her powers. It's not like she grows in power. She has this Achilles, two Achilles heels, which is, like, her mental decay. She needs to suck the sanity out of people. And then also, she can be killed when she's inside of Ben's form. Like, those are the two sort of big weaknesses. But other than that, like, super speed, like, super strength, all this sort of stuff like that. has been there throughout, so it's not like there was a limiting factor on her. Right. The mayor didn't eat a big box of spiders before he could, like, be certain things.

You know what I mean? And so, um... Oh, man. So I think they sort of miscalibrated that a bit this season. I do think, though, coming off of the initiative, anything is going to feel better. And if you wonder that, like, if you want to be the most generous, you version of yourself that you can be, you can say glory is not really the point of the season. But yeah, in terms of.

that sort of like we introduced her, she's fun, but we need to come up with a reason why this all-powerful being wouldn't have, you know, figured, A, figured out who the key was and B, killed everyone at this point, you know? Yeah, and I, totally. And I think the other thing that feels distinct from, I mean, not that we were rooting for anyone with, who was with the master, but like in all. Except for Darla. Always, always Darla. Shout out, Darla. I do love Darla. Darla's really having a time on Angel right now. the character.

It's, so there was a mention, you know, when Drew comes back, there's like the allusion to what Darla is up to, and it did, I did have a moment where I was like, despite my, you want to want to do. Bold claims that I'm going to wait. Should I just see what Darla's up to? The, you know, Drusilla, Spike, Angel, were so invested in characters in that dynamic in a way that makes it really complex. We're very invested in faith, even when she loses us. It's just messier. This is like, I'm like, I like, I like jinx. I think, jinx is funny, but there's no one in Glory's orbit I'm rooting for. Right. And we should be rooting

for Ben, but we're not. And when Ben has his sort of like fall, his decision he makes, you're just like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. We got an email from a listener, Nick, who is it likes the character of Glory, isn't a huge fan of Claire Kramer's performance. I really like Claire's performance, but he made a shout out that I think is true and something that sticks out a bunch inside of The Buffy Vampire Slayer where he said, some actors can pull off the weed and speak or scoomers. wheeisms if he prefer and some just can't. And I do agree they just sound wrong in Glory's mouth and it's true. It happens sometimes where you're just sort of like, oh, this writing's so gimmicky, but on the one hand that might be true of the given writing. But on the other hand, I really do

think that like that Willow and Zander can sell literally any sort of cutesy little talk. Tara sometimes I think stumbles. I think Dawn sometimes stumbles with it. And so that sort of of speak, Seth Green's a master of it. You know what I mean? Incredible. Yeah. But it doesn't feel natural in every single person. It's like how some actors can perform Shakespeare and it just sounds like modern speak because you're like, oh, I understand exactly what you're saying.

And some people struggle with that. Or even like the sorkin. Yeah. Patter. Yeah. That's definitely a thing. On the ass front, in case that we don't have another opportunity, just shout out the Zander moment where he's like, As would get it.

He wouldn't say anything. We didn't get it. That was great. That was really good. Sanders saying something appalling there to be there, but just a great way to invoke ours. Yeah, there are a couple times when Zander's like, there need to be more men here. Dawn, and I was made to love you, Don, shouting out Ted. That's one of my favorite moments too. That's so good.

Yeah. Because it's like Dawn remembers Ted. That's great. Hysterical. And also I did really appreciate the show acknowledging, yeah, we're doing another weird flesh robot thing. We are. We're way better this time. I really love that episode. That's not one of the two favorites we're going to talk about.

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Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. Season 5, episode 16, The Body, written and directed by Joss Whedon. Mallory Rubin, you knew this plot point was coming, which I think is my fault. Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say fault.

It was your doing. I did it. It was me. And you knew this, but you also knew this episode was extremely well regarded. So how did it stack up to knowing, you know, you weren't surprised and devastated at the end of I was Made to Love You the way that the rest of us were. I will say when you watch I was Made to Love You and Buffy's wearing the like red VNX sweater and you're just like, the whole episode, you're just like, it's coming. I will say, I knew what waited for me in the body.

I didn't know what waited for me in the body. I didn't know what waited for me in the body. I did not know that I was going to learn that Joyce had died at the end of the sex robot episode. So that was a bit of shockering. Yeah. Geez. So we've talked a lot over the years. We've had various reasons to talk about when something is really hyped.

Yeah. Like, can it possibly measure up? And, you know, I think we've talked about this across the prior Buffy Pots. We talked about this a little bit when we got to hush. Like, you know, I know, I know, even though I had never seen Buffy, I know the body, hush once more with feeling. Like, I know I've just heard these invoked enough to know, like, what. You're plugged in, you're hip. Couldn't be the less true, but thank you for saying it.

And with Hush, obviously, a very different episode, I said a version of this where it's like, you know, not only did it not fail to measure up, it was somehow better and like more gripping than I thought it would be just because of the pleasure of actually getting to experience and then understanding why it means so much to people, right? This was like really an all-timer in terms of not only meeting that. hype, but somehow exceeding it. Like, I just thought this was one of the best episodes of TV ever. I mean, this is easily my favorite Buffy episode.

Easily. And I just thought it was like breathtaking for all of the reasons that people who are listening to this pod who surely love this episode and have loved Buffy for a long time, probably also love it. I, you know, I knew that Joyce was going to die. I had heard, again, out of context, so it didn't hit his heart. But I had heard you had played the Aanya speech and the Scooby. dorm room scene.

But just every single part of this, all of which I'm excited to discuss now, you know, the non-supernatural aspect of it, the filming and just stylistic choices in terms of the framing, the use or lack of use of sound, the language choices, like the way that the body is invoked throughout, right? You know, the dream-like, almost like hallucinogenic moments for Buffy, just the way that this entire episode, which is like a portrait of deep and astonishing grief, is rooted fully in the routine things. I just thought was like kind of gobsmacking in its confidence and execution, you know, knowing that really all were, Frankly, even to the point where at the end, even though I loved every part of this episode,

when the vampire gets up off the slab, I'm like, we don't need, like, any of that in this episode. Now there's something very effective about the way that plays out in that sequence, of course. But, you know, this is an episode about, like, the sheen of sweat on Buffy's face as she hears the children laughing out in the yard, like experiencing a childhood that is now for her definitively over, the lingering shot of the paper towel. just soaking up the moisture of Buffy's vomit on the rug, the framing of the paramedic where it's like this almost disembodied aspect of a mouth saying words to you about a thing that like can't possibly be true. Just all of those choices. And, you know, the Buffy and Giles and dawn of it all. Amazing. I think this, the Willow, Tara, Zander, Anya seems my favorite Buffy scene. It's mine too. It's unbelievable. Yeah. The same.

Scooby Dorm scene is, for some reason, my favorite section of this episode. And yeah, maybe my favorite episode of section of Buffy, just the way those four dynamics. It's interesting when you, when you rewatch the season and you see something like triangle where, which makes much of Willow and Anya's sort of, which hasn't been like a consistent thing throughout, but like, you know, there's been eye rolls at Anya, but they really sort of ramp up the tension between them two. so then when you have this breaking moment where Willow, like, cannot be polite with Anya at all. It, you know, it feels seated in advance. I love everything you said.

The fact that Whedon has talked about the fact that this is a lot of it is based on him processing his own mom's death, makes a lot of sense and certain stylistic choices, like the numbers on the phone looking really big or just like something he remembered from his own personal experience. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like you can't invent those. things. You have to experience those things. And even if we haven't experienced those things, the authenticity of it just really rings true. I think it's amazing. I love, I don't love that you mention the vomit, but I love that you mention vomit. Something that I really love about this episode is the way in which, like, the various, like, liquid, bodily fluids, Buffy's

vomit, Zander's blood, Dawn's snot in the bathroom, everyone's tears, like this physical matter of being alive, of your body producing things. that Joyce's will no longer. Joyce is not only never drinking fruit punch again, she's never vomiting again, and she's never bleeding that way again, and she's never going to snot again and all this. So just the aliveness of the negative space around Joyce

that's left here inside of this episode, I think is incredible. The mom mommy from Sarah, which will get another mommy in forever, and also it'll come up again in a different, season, like, absolutely kills me. Sarah is incredible in this episode. There is a oneer at the beginning of the episode, so like a, you know, a one shot, no cuts section that Sarah did seven times all the way through. And I just like cannot imagine the emotional exhaustion of

performing that an all-time TV sequence with no cuts, no breaks seven times through. is just incredible to me. I, mom, the, the, the, the, the mommy in this episode, End Forever just absolutely destroyed me. Another moment in that sequence that, it's like, just hit me so hard was the, on the phone, you know, calling 911. Yeah. The CPR conversation. Yeah. The like, no, I don't remember because, and this will then be from this point, for, this has always been present in the whole run of the show.

But from this point forward, really, this is very central on how, what Buffy is. is navigating internally and then what Buffy will navigate with others, most especially with Giles, the rest of the season, building toward this massive decision, the sacrifice,

and the gift, this question of like, is Buffy just a kid? Is Buffy? So in the gift, when we get that, like, you're just a girl, like,

that's what I keep saying. It's just so connected to the whole series to that point. I love it. It's so good. And to a moment like this. And so the idea of the pressure that Buffy feels to, because it's real, it's not actually just something Buffy feels.

It's real. Like you have to know and you have to figure it out and you have to be the one to save us. And so this moment of just like, I don't remember a thing that has nothing to do ultimately with being the Slayer, but it's something that like just people learn or they don't and then they need or they don't. And it's scary and she's afraid and then actually trying to do it. like, oh my God, I heard something crack. Crack. These are just such, I mean, that's slayer strength, of course.

But it's also like just such a normal, terrifying thing to witness that has to do with being still a really young person in the world and also a person who is facing losing her parent, right? There's nothing that Buffy could have done, as the doctors will say and as I firmly believe, right? Yeah. She won't believe that, but that I think is true. all that being said, the fact that her Slayer strength, which is the thing that has enabled her to save so many lives, is a detriment to her in this moment when she's trying to perform CPR on her mom. Again, it was too late. The body was already cold. But like, you know, that is so beautiful and poignant and horrifying. Also, like, so the real time, so we have, the episodes broken into basically like these little one acts, right? You've got Buffy and Giles at the summer. craftsman. You've got Don at school. You've got Scoobies, our favorite section. You've got the hospital and then the morgue. That's all one thing. The hospital and then the morgue.

Right. And time unfurls in real time across those. We are with these characters as, you know, we watch the doctor walk all the way down the hallway. We have to wait for the ambulance to show up. We have to wait for Giles to show up. Right. We walk down the hall with Don and her friend from the bathroom into the art, art class. We watch Zander Park. We watch Zander Park. We have to wait for Zander and Anya to come. So Zander Parks. And they have to wait for Zander and Anya to like come upstairs. And so we're with Tara and Will like waiting for that. We wait with Tara and Buffy in the waiting room when everyone else is out doing things. Great. Tremendous Tara moment, obviously. Really good. And then we walk with Dawn down the hall wing into the more. You know what I mean?

Like we're just the way in which the lack of score, which you already mentioned, so we're forced to sit in the silences and forced to sit in the waiting of the bizarre time dilation of this. It just sort of like time stops, but then it also doesn't and everything keeps going and you have to keep slaying vampires by the end. Or like the mom that kills me in the opening sequence with Buffy at home is when she like wishes the paramedics good luck on their next assignment. Oh my God. This just sort of wrote politeness that she's performing because she doesn't know how to exist

inside of her own grave. Yeah. Let's take it sort of section by section. Let's talk about Buffy and Giles. What do you want to say about, you know, it's largely Buffy until Giles arrives, but this sequence here. Man, I think to your point about just the time dilation and the what does it actually feel like in every second of that, you know, we have the 911 call. We have the Giles call. That all feels right, like that those would be the things that Buffy did, but also then those moments building up toward Giles arriving of like not knowing. what to do and how to fill that moment of devastation. I think my favorite single choice in there is Buffy looking at Joyce's body and fixing her skirt because it's like a lot of things in this episode actually reminded me of my favorite movie ever, Ordinary People, and one of the things that I just like, that just destroys me in that, which is a movie about death and grief and the inability

to like cope with the things that happen and your hand in them, right? Or you're wondering if you played a role, even if that's not a fair weight to put on yourself. And the, without going into too much detail about or nerdy people, you're watching if you haven't. It's devastating, but beautiful. I've just always been gobsmacked by like,

I'm moving between two scenes here, this and the Scooby dorm room scene, but the like, we were going to our son's funeral, like, why did it make? matter what I was wearing on my feet, right? And like, it's, in that movie, it's like there's, like, a villainous presence there, right? There's a nefarious force there. So it's different, tonally and emotionally. But when Willow is like, what do I wear, like, where's the blue sweater that Joyce loved or, like, what does it mean if I show up in a cheerful shirt? Right. These are the

thing. What is purple meaning? Yeah. These, like, are the things that you think about when you don't how to navigate the horror in front of you. It just is human nature. And so the skirt is a version of that because it's like, I don't know what to do about the thing that has just happened. So I can do this. But also, there's the dissonance of trying to preserve the modesty of your mother and a woman and a person who is about to be like put on the slab. Put on the slab. Yeah. The modesty is the perfect word, but the phrase that popped in my mind was like human dignity. Yeah.

And so it's just sort of like. The last preservation of that. But like to all these other people, she is, you know, merely the body. It's not the body my mom. Right. And then, of course, Sarah's performance of Buffy's reaction when she says we can't move with the body. Oh my God. And her just like horror that she has said this.

That's unbelievable. And so, yeah, with Giles coming in in that moment and the like, it just, the damn breaks and he sees. And then they just like kind of fold into each other, right? And there are, you know, last pod, it was like, this felt like a kind of weirdly Giles light stretch of episodes on the both dad and daddy categories that we have, not so here. The dad moments from Giles in the stretch,

either where he is behaving that way or where one of the characters, like Buffy is really looking to him that way, to the extent where, which I found beautiful across the episodes, including here. I mean, the way that he is there to just, like, cocoon her and try to comfort her at the end, at the hospital. And he's like, I'll do the paper. Yeah. The forms.

You know, frankly, it made a couple of the moments in these stretches of episodes feel not wrong. It, like, made sense in the context of the moments. But when he's like, well, you're Dawn's family. Like, but you're all, no, you're all. Or when Buffy said to him, like, well, this is a family thing. It's like, no, that's like, you're all family. And we see that a lot of times. Honestly, an enormous bone I have to pick with the series, and we will discuss it more in later seasons.

But, like, the... I understand what they're trying to explore in this sort of, like, Buffy has to grow up all at once. Yeah. Which she has always been part of her story. But, like, I think they, in order to force that, they have made the decision to have certain characters around her behave in, I think, an uncharacteristic way. I'm just sort of, like, this is your job instead of dawn is ours to take care of. Don is your sister, you have to do it. Right.

Which I don't think is something Giles would do or any of the other characters do. I really agree. The other Giles aspect, of course, of this, like, the, what we get from Joyce and I was made to love you is that she's like going out on a date with this guy, Brian, Brian, who sent her flowers, you know? And like, of course, it's a classic. People do this all the time in storytelling. Weeden is particularly guilty of this.

This is, this is Jenny. and Giles are going to have a date right before Jenny dies. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like Joyce gets to be her like most human, effervescent, funny, vulnerable self in the episode right before, or the very episode she dies in actually. But what's hanging over this, of course, is also the like, Giles's own relationship with Joyce, which is not like Giles is like carrying a torch for Joyce. He did not seem like upset that she was going on with Brian. But like in forever the episode that comes after this, we get this sequence that absolutely kill. me were Giles is in his house listening to the record that he played for Joyce and Band Candy, just sort of like thinking about his own as the father figure to Buffy, certainly not you, Hank

Summers and Joyce as the mother figure. Like they had this sort of like youthful sexual adventure, but also just like they had their own relationship. This isn't Buffy's mom. This is Joyce Summers who met something to Giles as well. And so that is hanging over this, him entering the scene here, you know. I mean, it's even directly invoked in this episode because one of those, like, dream states we get. We end episode 15 with, like, Joyce's dead body on the couch.

And then we open the body with that exact scene, the end of episode. There's no, like, previously on it. It's just the end of episode 15 playing again. And then we go into this, like, family dinner. Everyone's there. They're – Joyce is alive and well. They're all talking. The scubies are there.

Buffy and Dawn. Giles is that there's like an anina, they're talking about, oh, Santa Claus is the myth. The myth is that it's a myth, right? It just feels like any moment that these characters could have shared together. They go into the kitchen, Joyce and Giles and Buffy and Buffy is mentioned. So to like, you know, I think, and intentionally, obviously, to remind us of all of the history between these characters and like, you know, the way that even then those, when is Buffy and some sort of like, okay, I am experiencing an unreality, they're all different. They all function. differently. Yeah. Like, that is what was lost? What will I not experience again? The Shire, you know. Yeah, exactly.

The, the, we travel briefly to the pit, right? The, like, bag it. We're going to intubate. Yeah. The rapid cuts. So, I mean, you know, you already know as a viewer, but you know in that stretch. That's not the way that sequence would go. We wouldn't be moving that quickly from moment to moment where, oh, Joyce is up.

We're in the ambulance and the things they're saying about just a true miracle. And then, you know, we know that the pace of that is wrong, right? And so it's like the thing that it's wish fulfillment, right? Yeah, the show is not trying to fool you. Right, with that. Yeah. It's putting us in Buffy's head and desire. And then the next version of it that we get, I might be forgetting one, but I think is the conversation with the doctor at the end where he's like, absolutely, I have to lie to you to make you feel better.

And it's just seamlessly integrated into the flow of that conversation just for a line. Yeah. You know, so each of, there's a, there's a through line of, of across the episode of not wanting to exist in the reality of what has happened, but each of those manifests differently and tells us something different is great. Something I love about that, a holiday meal flashback, because that's, that's a real memory, not a fantasy, is the reason we didn't put it there is he didn't want the cast credits to play over Sarah's performance with joy.

So he jammed that in after the opening credits so that, you know, you could have all those things, all the white script on the bottom of the screen happen over the sequence. So it's like, you know, necessity being the mother of invention. It's like a beautiful sequence that does all those things thematically and then also serves as practical, I don't want to get in the way of my own art sort of idea inside of the episode. So good. Dawn at school.

Man. You know, we open with. this fake out of like Don crying over, you know, being bullied and a boy she likes and these very teenage concerns. Dawn enters the story here. You can feel however you want to feel about Don, but she re-injects this sort of like school as hell or teenage concerns having to sit side by side. So we get this like, you know, her very own bitchy Cordelia sort of like in the hallway, making like making up stories about her, but also based in reality about her like cutting her arm open and all these other things. The fact that this boy is

actually like quite nice to her. Donna has a friend. That's nice to see. Something of the show will continue to struggle with, honestly. But like she briefly has a friend in this episode. The way that the sound cuts out that, you know, Buffy comes in and she and Donna are in the hallway. And apparently they shot the scene a number of different ways. And one of the ways was like we're with them in the hallway. But they went with this, he decided to go with this version of like shooting from inside the classroom so we don't hear it. And we just, we linger on like her friend and this boy that she has a crush on and just sort of like their, their horror, but also what comes with that, which is the gratitude of like this kind of grief isn't touching me today.

You know, I don't have to, whatever this is, which is seismic, whatever it is, even if we can't hear it, is seismic, and it's not something that I have to deal with today. And then they cast this actress as the art teacher, who I think looks so much like Joyce. No question. And it's just, like, so haunting. The style of that air, I mean, everything.

Yeah. I really, like quite liked the choice to take us into school with Dawn and the stretch. Because, you know, it achieves a few things. I mean, I think, like, there are other moments in the season where, you know, there's like a comedy beat where Don is like, man, they put, you know, the monks put like K through 8 in there. They can't just do nine. Like it's, you know, or when we learn that Dawn, after finding out, she's the key was like

talking shit at school and said things to the teachers that they couldn't, she got suspended. Or when Buffy goes in, basically has to be in the role of like parent teacher conference and, you know, we witnessed part of it and then learn later that one of the things that Buffy heard from the principal was like, they're gonna take her away. Like, you know, so school and Don't. Again, I have questions about that, but, you know. I have questions, yeah, about a lot of that. But there's no other version quite like this where it's like,

because the characters, Don, you know, will say to Buffy in the next episode at the end of Forever when they have really a wonderful scene together. And they both say hurtful things to each other, born out of genuine anxiety and fear for both of them, this question of like, I'm just your, it's like, I'm just your job. Because that is Dawn's fear, that she's evil, that she's a source of all of this pain for other people, but also that she's a thing. She's a concept. She's a construct. Right. We have to see her exist as a person in her own life. It's not just enough for us to hear Buffy or the other characters say that to her. So even though it's just a couple minutes, it does, I think, help root us in Don is a kid who goes to school every day.

And Dawn has a friend. And Dawn has a crush. And it's like very quick, but I thought was really important in terms of what comes after. In terms of what you were saying about the use of the window and the grief on display. Sorry, can I just really quickly say that, like, on the Don humanity front, it's, it's, you know, Dawn, again, not a character I always, always, always, always love. And there are some things in blood type. you know, that the fandom loves to make fun of in terms of her being like, get out of, get, like, it's an iconic sort of Don, let's make fun of Dawn moment. But like, but the conversation between Buffy and Don, which is played again in the finale, of course, because they're talking about the summer's blood. But when Dawn is talking to her about the summer's blood that they share, I just think it's a really beautiful under, like, because there's this theme of chosen family, which is constant throughout Buffy,

underlined, especially in the terror episode Buffy, but that is also the episode where Buffy tells Giles, like. this is who Don is. So the idea of like Don is chosen family. Right. But also like if we prick you do, you not bleed. You are a human. So like we have the same blood. We choose you.

We have chosen you. You are chosen to us. You are the chosen one in a certain way. But also you bleed. You're a human girl. Right. Your blood is the same as my blood. And so like that underlining of like Don is a real person, a real girl.

I think that's beautiful what you mentioned about just showing her outside of that context of the family. Will we see Kevin again, young Kevin, and his charcoal drawing skills? I have no idea. I was struck by the observation of the Don Buffy moment through that pain of glass as well, because this will sound uncharitable. I don't really mean it that way, but it's like I thought it was intentionally a way of showing us the like voyeuristic aspect of this too. You know, when you grieve, there's really like, like they're watching the body. They're watching the body.

Yeah. It's like there's, this is the most private thing, right? You have lost your parent. You have lost a family member. You have lost one of the closest people to you in the world. And everybody else is watching you. And the thing that I love, one of the things I love about this episode is it shows us that in all sorts of ways. Like, it's also true, you know, when it's well intentioned and when a.

comes from a place of deep love and affection. All the Scoobies want to be there at the morgue because they want to support Buffy. But that also means there's a lot of moments of like, do you need anything, are you okay? Which comes from a place of care and protection. Here are all the snacks, which do you want? That felt so true to life to me where you're like, you don't know what to do and how to help your friend. But then there's the part of it when you're the person who's feeling that where you're like, everyone wants to know if I'm okay or is wondering what's happened to me. Or I don't know that you have to. I'm sure that there are some mentally healthy people who don't. But like, um, like when I, when I, uh, had my health stuff last year and everyone was like so lovely.

I've, I've, 10 of 10, no, no, it's zero complaints. But something that a friend of mine who had gone through something similar told me is she was like, you can't even understand how much energy you are going to spend. Right. Try to make other people feel okay about what you're going through. And again, no one is asking that of you. It's just sort of like a very human response. And so, yeah, everyone's like really, all anyone wants to do, hopefully, is like support you and help you. But another side of that is that you as the person are just sort of like, I'm okay. It's okay. Everything's okay. You know, because you want to make it feel small for them. And again, I hope that there are some mentally healthy people out there who are

just sort of like, I'm not okay. This is terrible because that's what we should do. But I feel like That's mostly not what we do do at the end of the day. Totally. Buffy saying to Tara, like, I'm really sorry that you're having to deal with all this. And Tara's like, you don't have to like, yeah, say that to me. But in those moments, it does feel like you have to. But again, Tara is the one who's been through it so she can say, like, I know, I know what you're feeling in a way that they can't understand. Another great example of what happens in this episode really continuing to have an impact on the characters and the relationships.

moving forward as it should because it's seismic. It's like when Willow, and this will come up in I think various other moments of the pot and categories today, but those Willow Terra fights and Willow like,

I'm the junior partner and like that was, I thought fascinating and also felt very true to life to me. And I just really admire the show's interest and explore those aspects of like how difficult it is to go through hard things with people you love.

Like it's hard to go through hard things without people you love, but it's also hard to go through them with people you love. Yeah. It just captures this so amazingly. Let's talk about Tara and Willow. Let's go to the Scooby scene with our first clip here. Can't do this. We can do this.

Okay. We can be there for both. when Willow cries me cry. So actually, I had a different reason for putting this clip in here, but once I picked the clip, I was like, oh, we should talk about the fact that there's, like, a historic kiss inside of this episode, which is, like, they had not let Tara and Willow kiss. They had done a lot of, like, magic is metaphor for sex or, like, they cuddle in bed or they have a dance where they, you know, raise up off the ground or stuff like that, but they do not kiss. They kiss here. It's sort of, like, smuggled inside of this episode in a way. way that like, which I think is very clever of Weedan in terms of like he's like, I'm not going to do a like big deal we're doing, which at the time they like when Ellen like came out on the TV show Ellen or whatever like in a similar timeline, it was like a very special episode and a really big deal and all this sort of stuff like that. He's like we're not going to do that. We're going to sort of smuggling in the middle of this other seismic episode that is like so big that like in a way that I that I don't think like diminishes the impact of this. This is like this.

ends a like Warner Brothers policy of no same-sex kisses on the network like is ended here. You know what I mean? Which is devastatingly late and all this other stuff like that. But like I don't think it's minimizing the importance of it. I think he just wants to underline like this is a part of life. This is a part of their life. They are in love and this is what people in love do. And they lean on each other and how beautiful that they are there to support each other.

The reason I had this here, because I forgot the kiss came in the middle, when Willis says, I can't do this, and Tara says, we can do this. That's a hugely important thing. And then immediately after, when Willow's like, little Dawn, like the way in which this Scooby scene unfolds and every character, except for Tara who is just in full-time caretaking mode, but every character sort of like shifts in terms of like who's caretaking who. And the way in which like a way through grief when you don't know what to do is if you can take care of someone else through it. all of a sudden you have something to do and some place to direct yourself. So like Willow at complete loose ends

trying to figure out what to wear, you know, and just in shambles. But Xander shows up and Zander's feeling a certain way and Willow switches into like sort of like, okay, come fight me. You know, like she's taking care of Xander there. And she's thinking about we need to take care of Dawn, which is again something they will put a lot on Buffy

when like I really feel like all of them would do it a bit more. Or then Anya's confusion comes into play, you know? And so just sort of of that like sort of like handing off of who's falling apart in a given moment and who's taking care of whom is is the core of this show is Buffy Willow Zander, that friendship, that family, that unit and the way in which they show up for each other. And especially when we've been talking about this season, the separation between Willow and Buffy, how they hardly have any moments where we remember that they're friends. There's an incredible moment in Way to the

world, which matter so much because we've been missing it. Sure. And it's, it's logical and it makes sense that you grow up and you maybe sort of like sink deeper into your romantic relationships. So like Xander and Anya and Willow and Tara, like, you know, these are their core relationships that they're building. You know, Willow's like, Tara's not just my girlfriend. She's my everything. You know what I mean? And so like, but what that means is that there's less room in her life for Buffy. But the way in which these various puzzle pieces have always fit back together at the end, but by the time we come around to a season finale, is why the show matters the way that it matters. And this scene is such like an important snapshot of,

of that, like, foundation of this entire journey. Oh, my God. I love that. I just thought this was unbelievable and, like, so real. Just so, so, so, so real. You know, when somebody you love and care about deeply suffers a loss, you often what happens is that, like, you feel helpless. You feel a desire to help them, but you don't know how. You also don't know how to help yourself. I love what you're saying about the healthy hot potato, like, who is the caregiver and the nurture in a given moment and who needs to be cared for and nurtured. But I think also there's an aspect of like, if you are reminded of who you are to somebody, right, then you also are reminded of who the person they just lost was to them. And so, like, I mentioned this last pod that one of the things I had to kind of keep reminding myself throughout this season was that Xander and Willow have known each other their entire lives.

that comes up, I thought, very effectively in the Anya Willow argument in Triangle. You know, you two have known each other forever. Like, I will never have that. But that actually was not true for Buffy, right? Yeah. But still, these are these formative years and obviously for these characters, these deeply formative experiences. And so it's the time since Buffy came to Sunnydale that Buffy and Zander and Willow have had together.

But it's also like you just right away you start thinking of those moments. like they're at the summer's house or Joyce is bringing them more chips. And like, you know, you really took me back to like thinking about like my friend's parents. You get so close to some of your friends' families when you're young. Especially like the, I don't know if you have this in your friend group, but like the one person whose house you always go to. You're at all the time. Yeah. Shout out Hillary's parents. Shout out the Sapersteins. Yeah. The domishes. Shout out the dummishes. They had an entire beverage fridge in their garage for us. It was just like the best.

What was in it? Some of you who are. to sodas? Sotas, you know, like, whatever we wanted. Sunny D. Capriesson. I just always thought that was, like, the coolest thing, that they had a separate fridge in their garage that was just for, like, drinks for us. It's incredible.

And, yeah, I don't know, like, I... It's just a really hard thing to watch somebody you love, grieve, and when that person is also... The person who is gone is also close to you. It's just, like, such an almost existential kind of thing. Again, on the front of, like, how the show continues to acknowledge the events of the body moving forward in little subtle, really effective ways. Something like Willow saying in a subsequent episode, like, I'm just going to go see my mom.

Like, I've been doing that more. You know? Yeah. Things like that. It just really feels rooted in the experience of how you would navigate something like this. I already talked about the outfit thing. I just thought that was like just genius and incredible. The Tara Willow moment is beautiful.

that we can do this, the we can be strong. Like Amazon's. Like Amazon's. You know, Xander having a moment that I think was reasonable to expect the audience would have of like, we show this wasn't glory or are we sure there's not another explanation? I thought it was smart that that, well, Giles too. When Buffy calls Giles and she's like, she's here at the house and he rolls up and he's like, is it glory what's happening?

Exactly. And, you know, that's important because I think there would be people at home who are wondering. But also then because it's, for me at least, I think so much more effective that that's not. Yes. The answer and the tragedy of like no matter who you are and what superpowers you have and what evil you have thwarted, like terrible things happen all the time. And this is, you know, there's a lot of battles, little battles that Buffy loses. But like she stops every single, spoiler, stops every single apocalypse. Like every apocalypse that comes, she stops, you know.

So she can't save every single person. But she saved the world a lot. Like that's what she did. Right. Put it on. Put it on the tombstone. So like, but this is just not something. This is just, this is just life.

You know what I mean? And this is something that, you know, Dawn sort of encounters this a bit in forever when she talks about like this resurrection. There's this idea of like, you know, what can magic do and what it can't do. And this idea of like you can't like a natural death. a death that just occurs naturally is not something that you can like turn back time on. Our listener Jasmine, actually we got a number of emails about this, but our listener Jasmine wrote in about this like fairly popular fan theory that Joyce's brain tumor is supernaturally

connected. I don't hold with this, but I just thought I would mention it just because we got so many emails about it. And Jasmine comes with some bonafides. Jasmine says, I'm a developmental psychologist and there's evidence that becoming a parent changes the brain. Specifically, studies that take scans of parents' brains have observed a thinning of the cortex. We're just starting to understand this process and its consequences. Joyce's doctor mentioned that her tumor was an, okay, here we go.

Oligodendro glioma. We think so? Okay. Well, I got to get ready for the pit season three. Okay, which Wikipedia tells me arises mainly in the frontal lobe. Even though many called Joyce's death natural and non-magical, I can't help but wonder if the monks cramming 14 years of caregiving plus pregnancy into Joyce's brain all at once had negative consequences for her brain and caused her tumor, which was in an area that sees change during pregnancy and caregiving. We also hear very little of anything from Buffy's father for the rest of the series. I'm also curious how he was affected by the sudden creature. Well, I don't really care about Hank Summers, but... But Jasmine's just voicing a very popular theory, which is like the creation of Dawn and all of that info being jammed into Joyce's brain. Could that have been connected to the tumor?

I much prefer A, the writers have never said anything like that, be, I much prefer the version of the story where this is just like a mortal thing that happened, you know, because that's part of what Anya says, right? It's stupid as mortal. Should we watch a bit of Anya's speech? Please. There's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. And Xander's crying and not talking, and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs or yon. or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why. Unbelievable.

Oh, my God. Emma, Carfield, everyone. In that mention the way that she's talking about Zander. And, like, again, in terms of that idea of, like, caretaking is she's just, like, Zander's, so, you know, before they arrive, we see them in the car and there's dead silence in the car, right? They're not talking to each other. Yeah.

But her desire to like, she, does she care about Joyce? Yes. But she's only like basically two years old, Anya. Like she just got here as a human, right? So she doesn't understand your human ways, right? Essentially like a toddler's response to death, right? But also as like a, I care. I like Joyce.

Fine. Zander's my person. And Zander's devastated. And I don't know how to fix that. I really love that that's part of again. and that emotional support hot potato that you termed it. I love that too, and, you know, there's the tonal evolution.

We're building so effectively toward that incredibly raw speech from the kind of more familiar, clipped comedy, what feels to us like comedy because it's coming from Anya. And so even the tenderness with which Anya says previously, like Xander cried, you know, it was weird. And it's because it's like this unfroar, Xander's the quippy joke guy. Yeah.

You know? Xander's the fun sex guy. So like to see Zander just break down, even though we didn't witness it, we can so palpably feel how Anya would have been receiving it. I also think it's tremendous inside of this episode that there are successful comedy beats inside of so much grief and torment. Like Anya finding the blue sweater and then just tucking it away in the drawers like one.

But like Zander punching the wall and like, like, like, who's your drywall guy? And Willow being like, you know, I've never asked. I never thought to ask. Like, that's just like, it's just there. Because you do. You laugh. You laugh through grief as well, you know.

And so, yeah, anytime that Zander and Willow remember that their best friends is, you know, very important to me. And the sequence is amazing. Anything else you want to say about this? I think just, I mean, it's beautiful and it's heart wrenching. I think that there's something about it about the Anya speech in particular, but all of it. But really what she's asking. here, right? I knew her, and then she's, there's just a body, right? It's stupid. It's mortal. It's stupid. No one will explain to me why. So much of the rest of this season, the finale, but in general,

the series, the distinction between Buffy, the Scoobies, and the foe is very, very routinely rooted in the idea of humanity, right? This is always, even in this, in this season, the question of like, well, okay, Angel had a soul. Well, I've got a chip. That's not the same thing. You know, there are so many different moments and manifestations for examining the idea of like, what does it mean to be human?

And what does it mean to not be human? And often that is the superpower, right? And so it is like to see the other side of it, which is the one, not everybody who's watching the show is going to know what it's like to be the chosen one, but everyone experiences a moment like that, right? Where they're like, I don't know how to code. cope or process with the thing that has just happened and I don't know why it has to be this way.

And again, the build of Anya through this season of like in triangle or and I was made to love you when there's the two, the double joke of like her talking about the way that the robot April talks, this like clipped overly literal manner. And Zander's like, you know, some guys kind of like that. You know what I mean? Like this, the way in which Anya is robotic in nature. I can't remember if I told you this, but when I was trying to pitch a friend of mine in college to, like, join the Buffy bandwagon because I knew she would love it. And she was a huge Star Trek Next Generation fan. And some of the Buffy writers came from that world. But, like, I was explaining the role of the Anya character.

And she's like, oh, she's the data, data being the android from Star Trek. You know, like, I don't understand her human ways. And it's a way in which a writer can, like, really drill into what it means to be human by giving you someone like. this. But yeah, all of Ani is like, I'm a former demon moments that are played for comedy, like in Checkpoint when she's so worried about the Watchers Council showing up. And she's just sort of like, I'm not a demon. With my father. And my father. You know, like, young and small. All of that stuff is played for comedy. And then she like shows up here and it's like this huge obstacle to her be belonging in this room. And I just, you know, so she goes and sits in the corner. Like,

Xander doesn't comfort her. Like, nobody comforts her when she has this incredible Breakdown. I mean, like Willow does a bit with her words, but like, nobody hugs on you in that moment. I don't understand why. Like, no one will tell me why. I don't get it. All right. We're in the hospital. Oh, man. And the morgue. What do you want to say about this that we haven't already? I mean, I think the terror moment's extraordinary. But what else do you want to say? I loved the terror moment so much, in part because it also connects to what we discussed in the first half of this season, the Tara family episode. So this is another, you know, a deepening of our understanding of who Tara. is and what she has lost and where she comes from. But also the other thing that we talked about was like, who has made an effort to get to know Tara? Right. This is a, it's up to Tara to share this.

Yeah, Tara's like, my mom died, by the way. But it's also a big thing to not know about someone, you know? And so I just, I don't know, I thought that the way that Tara shared that because it felt right for her in that moment, but also it was then clear that it was not a. thing that other people, other than Willow, knew. Or even, like, thought about, like, maybe they knew because, like, you know, her dad shows up in family. So maybe there was a conversation about that. But, like, it's not, they don't hold on to information about Tara.

Yeah. She doesn't matter to them in the way that, you know. Very, very painful. And then on that front, like, what Tara, what I hung on to is, like, Tara saying to Buffy in this stretch, you know, I, this, I lost my mom. My mom died. and I had these thoughts and there were things in my head that I like didn't think should be there

and then that just feels so true for Buffy in so many moments the rest of the season so that felt like again there's just a deftness to the priming in this episode this is such an emotional dynamo but there are also so many moments that really like position us to receive what comes after

and I thought the scene was one of them A couple more things I want to mention. Obviously, of course, because we cover Marvel, we have to mention that Sandra says the Avengers get, got to get with the assembling. The nerd, like the nerd, comic book nerd, Star Wars, et cetera mentions will ramp up significantly starting in season six going forward. So, like, this is something, which is just sort of, like, I don't know, it's really extremely fun and funny to watch it going forward because what they're mentioning, you know, if they mention, like, Dr. Doom or they mentioned this out of the other thing, like, which is like, not obscure, but like slightly niche.

And now we're like, Robert Donnie Jr., one of the biggest movies of the years, like Dr. Doom, you know what I mean? Like, it has become, like, more of the text of our culture. But anyway, how did it feel to hear a Weed-Scrib say? the Avengers got to get with the assembly. Quite good. I also, I got to kick out of that. I also, I, in, I have this coming in one of my categories later.

So I'm scooping myself a little bit. But as we talked about prepotted, there are like 800 picks for each category. So it's fine. The, then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her. You'll fail. Exchange is so cap Tony, Ultron. Yeah. We'll do that together too.

Yeah. This is just the first pass on that exchange. This is just wild. Joss rewriting himself. No spike in this episode. And this is the first time he's Apten since he joined the opening credits. Though, of course, he shows up in forever. And we'll talk about that in one of my categories.

But I like that he's not here. It does feel right. He doesn't belong here at all. So even as a huge spike fan, I'm glad he's not here. And then just like the investment of time. Okay. So Whedon gets this reputation of being ruthless and killing off characters, right? It starts with Jenny

Calendar, which we talked about in season two. We get it here with Joyce. This is a reputation that he gets, like, you know, it'll show up an angel, it'll show up in Firefly, it'll show up in Avengers and everything going forward, right? And this is pre-Game of Thrones, so pre- what happens in season one of Game of Thrones. So this was

like the sort of like, oh my God, this is so ruthless, blah, blah. And Jenny Callender, as I detailed in depth, And they don't talk about Jenny anymore, and it really bothers me. But like Jenny Callender, that death meant so much to me because I just didn't know you could do it. Joyce is so different because it is five years of my life with these characters. Like season two, that was like about a year of my life with us because it was a midseason.

So like about a year, Jenny Callender dies. Five years in with these characters. 94 hours of your life, but actually since you watch every episode twice, It's like 188 hours, actually, of your life that you've spent with these characters. So what matters to them matters so much to us because we've just invested so much time in them. And so like, and it's one thing to die to go out fighting a vampire or whatever. It's another thing for Joyce to just feel like she's just like ripped untimely from her life. And so also I'm so much closer in age to choice now than I was when I first watched this show.

So yeah, it's, but that thing that television can do, that film can't do. Sure. And that even reading a book once can't do, which is just sort of like that depth of emotional investment over time in characters. And so when this happens to Joyce, but then also to all the people around Joyce that we care about, it just matters so much to us. Yeah, and you just understand what it means to them. I think that, you know, that on that front, the evolution. of the Buffy and Joyce relationship over the years. I mean, God, that's part of what we're bringing with us to this moment because it's like one of the things that has been so fascinating about them as a pair is that they have had so many things to work through and navigate.

And so there's an aspect of like feeling a gratitude that they were in a better place, right? Because that's not, that's not always how it goes. But also there's this like it heightens in some way for me, like the finality of it. Like, this is a relationship defined by, like, ebbs and flows and changes. And, like, the changes are done because Joyce is gone, you know? So you work through, like, all of the challenges when Buffy is, like, a young whippersapper. And then Joyce's rejection, right, of the truth and those questions of identity, which we talked about, you know, so much in season two. And then the distance and the growing up and the change.

And, like, I think we, in season four, I was really like, man, I really miss Joyce. I miss Joyce. It's like, where's Joyce? But that also did feel right. Buffy's like, I'm at college. And like, I didn't go five states away. I'm in the same town. So, like, I'm determined to, like, forge this new existence for myself.

And then this, for, you know, all these reasons, Dawn and then Joyce's health and dawn again, like to be back home to give us that real immersion in the summer's home of just their time together, like, moment. again in the kitchen with breakfast and things like that, you know, and just like, I don't know. It's just, then you're like, that's never, there's no more of that. It's gone. It's a really interesting way in which they rolled out this death because that's such, I love what you just said, but like thinking about all the moments that all the time we got to spend on the choice this season, it doesn't feel manipulative. They knew for the beginning of the season. And in fact, I think Christine Sutherland has said at the end of season three, Joss was like, eventually, I'm planning to kill you. So that's happening.

But they knew at the start of the season that that's what they were doing, even though in a 22 episode season, you know, as you're writing, as things are airing, things can change. But this was always the plan. So they knew they wanted us to spend time with Joyce. And they didn't do it just like randomly. They gave her this health. So it's not like they were trying to fool us. It's like it's a difference between like a shock and awe death. And it just sort of like, Mr. Policeman, we gave you all the clues. Like she has been. suffering through this all season. There have, you know, and there were never any promises from the doctors that everything was going to be fine, you know? And so it's just sort of like, it's so earned because they're just sort of like, here's the path and we've walked you right up to it. And, and you're still stunned that it happens unless you were spoiled by your podcast co-host in advance. Again, I don't believe the things that happened more than 20 years ago can be spoiled. I don't. I think you're absolved completely.

On that point, another moment that I just thought was like just perfect in this episode was when the paramedics are there and they're asking, any health issues and Buffy's like, no. Oh, well, there's the brain tumor. Yeah. Right? And or Zander having his moment of like, how could the doctors let her go? Or then the conversation. Zander looking to blame so much. Yes, because that's what you do. You want to be able to put it somewhere, right? Yeah. And like then the moment at the hospital where, especially. especially because Buffy is often with Dawn, you know, in the conversation about the wake in the subsequent episode. Like, oh, I didn't know that.

Well, like, mom and I talked about it. Buffy is often the one in the position of, like, well, I had all the information and you didn't. So to see Buffy in the other spot where the doctor at the hospital at the end is like, Buffy's like, shouldn't we have known? Okay, you're saying like the surgery site, shouldn't we have known this was a risk? And the doctor's like, Joyce knew. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

That's the body. Just unbelievable. Is anything going to top that the rest of the way? I don't see how it could. So passion is your favorite episode. But do you think that this is the best? Is there a best favorite distinction? I think formally this is the best.

You know what I mean? If we're doing my favorite. As you know, I'm a firm believer of best and favorite or separate list. I understand that. Yeah. And I love that. You can have a different number one. No, no, no.

I think in terms of favorite, I would probably put it like somewhere around number four. Okay. Like it's in the top five favorite, but in terms of like technically best. technically impressive storytelling, I think it's number one. Yeah. Interesting. For sure. Though, I mean, I got to say, like, surprise and innocence, like, the angel turn in terms of, like, what can a show do is... Innocence is still number two on my list, I think. This is now the number one. It's passion, and then, like, surprise innocence, if I can count a two-parter as number one is number two. Like, that's... And then we'll figure it out from there,

but that's definitely true. And we'll do, we'll, let's do a full ranking when we finish, but... Just knowing that once more with feeling it's a musical episode, I have to assume it's very high on your list. But we'll find out. It's tough. It's tough. I rewatched it this last week. As I told you, I sort of spilled into season six and I was like, I'll just make it to the musical episode. Then I'll stop.

And actually, I made it to the one after that. And then I was just like, okay, we can calm down. But like, because the one after the musical episode is also really good. Speaking of the one after. So the body airs of February 27th forever, the follow-up episode, airs April 17th. So there's seven weeks. Whoa. Between the body and the episode that came after.

This is fairly standard. You know, there would be like these. Back in the day. Yeah. these like sweeps breaks and all this or stuff like that. I don't know. Imagine watching the body and then just like having to sit with no new Buffy episode for seven weeks. Anguish.

Yeah. If you would made me guess without looking at the dates, I would have said that the break maybe came after forever. Yeah, that makes sense, but that's not what they did. Wild. Downright cruel. Season 5, episode 22, The Gift. Once again, written and directed by Joss Whedon. Two written and directed by Jaws Whedon.

I mean, it's just, it's his show. This is the 100th episode of the series. It is the one where Buffy dies again. Mali Rubin. Yes. The body was spoiled for you. This was not. You were surprised.

So let's talk about it. I just had no idea that this was coming. I had no idea. I knew that the gift was a well-regarded episode, but I had no information about it other than the, you know, the thumbnail for the episode on Hulu is, like, I think, a close-up of Glory's face. So I knew Glory made it until the end of the season. I've started paying better attention.

Do you read the descriptions? You simply can't. Yeah, you can't. Like, if you read the description for the body, you would have been hardcore fucked because it's just, like, processing Joyce's death. It's like, don't put that in the description of the episode. I've started paying more attention to thumbnails in the description since you've, like, described her journey through. and I'm like preemptively so mad about some season six stuff and I'm just sort of like, cool it, Hulu.

I know. Be more mysterious. Yeah. I mean, I get, you know, I'm sure many people who are booting up Buffy on Hulu are like watching it for the 800th time. Right. They want the cue of like what, oh, that's the episode where, etc. It makes sense.

But I am like, damn, there's some like, there should be a filter. You should be able to put like a filter on it. It's a good idea. First time watchers. Yeah. And all of the thumbnails are just like the logo. Yeah. It's like Buffy holding a steak. Yeah.

It would still be great. It would work. Okay, things I didn't know. And even when I finished watching, because I haven't watched any of the season six. So I'm, here's what I know. I know that there's a season six and I know that there's a season seven, which you'll walk us through what level of awareness and understanding and clarity there was on that front in real time.

For me in the year 2006 watching this, I was like, on the one hand, did Buffy just die? Like, I had a real, holy shit, I was not expecting that moment. But then also, because I know there are future seasons, I'm like, the show's not over. But immediately I was like, did they think the show was over? Like, was this a potential series finale? Because it really has that feel. Not just with Buffy's decision, Buffy's choice, but so many of the moments between the characters.

And the previously on is like the entire series so far. So on that front. Yeah. Even when I was sitting down to watch the episode. Hit play. The previously on is rapid fire flash of every prior episode, I think, right? And because I did not know what it waited, even then still, I was like, are every one of those like weapons going to come into play or something?

I thought there might be just like a plot reason. Yeah. Rewatching it going back through for the second time when I knew how the episode ended, I was like, this is like it's eligible for most emotional moment, one of our categories, because it's just, yeah. You know, to take you through your history with the show and the characters really just very intense. I thought that the decision with Buffy and what Buffy did at the end was really interesting and bold. And I'm excited to talk about it.

It's not the only reason I really like the episode, though. I think that the Giles Buffy scenes and conversations in this episode are, like, amazing. I think that what we hear Buffy say to Dahlin at the end is amazing. I think that watching all of the Scoobies look at Buffy is amazing. I think the Zander Anya scene is amazing. If this, I'm glad it's not the series finale, but if it had been, given how hard it is to end shows well, this would have been like a pretty strong final note for the series. And I've told you that I'm not like a huge fan of the final season.

And there are parts of the finale that I think are extraordinary. But honestly, if I had to pick... This is a better end point. This or even the season three... Season three finale or this finale. Like, it just feels like... It feels like we get like a season three finale is the ending of one era. And then the season five finale and then the two that come out.

You know, these feel like different eras. But yeah, I think this is an extraordinary finale. And the way it checks in with everyone and the way in which everyone's... relationships are so important. It opens with buffing, meeting a vampire who doesn't know her, which I love as a bookend for like meeting Dracula in the season premiere and him being like, you are global, I'll be a noun, you know what I mean? And then she's saying, shout out my guy, Dracula. Miss him. One of our listeners wrote in to let us know that that same year, that actor played Dracula in a different movie. Are you going to watch it? Yeah. What's it called? I don't know, Vlad at me. I don't remember what it's called.

Oh, my God. I, okay, well, I know what I'm, well, not tonight because I have a lot of work to do. Maybe tomorrow night. I know what I'm doing tomorrow night. That's amazing. Yeah, I've been a long time to say that one who didn't know me was also the bookend inside of the season, but just the bookend to like the whole journey, you know, taking us back to a time before we were actually with Buffy where this wasn't every minute of her reality. Like, I mean, you're the slayer from the jump. But like, I don't know.

It was just. And the way that that's like an alley encounter is just sort of like an interstitial between the end of the previous episode. Like it's the same conversation in the magic box at the end of the previous episode into like what happens after she just goes outside to dust of amp. You know what I mean? And so it's just sort of like this moment. So good. I like the I like what it tells us about the what has been kind of a constant in Buffy's life given how much of this episode and the most I thought powerful and potent moments in the episode are Buffy interrogating what it means to have to live a life this way. You know? The choices. I don't want to want to look at this. Yeah. Zander and Ania, sex is a coping mechanism for death. The way in which, like, the scene in this episode, the scene previously when they have sex after Joyce dies, right? And Ania's like, like, more intense. This is about creating life. And then Zander gets his like, I'm not ready to be a death.

She's like, not right now, dude. I'm just saying, like, it means something else. And so I love that it takes the, like, Anya's horny jokes into the space of, like, what can sex mean? Yeah. This is like in the best version of this that I don't think. they landed perfectly well. This is what the like, uh, Aria Gendry stuff in Thrones is supposed to be. You know, it's just sort of like, we may die. Tomorrow we may die. So let's live. You know? On the on your front as well, I love that she gets the moment inside the episode where she's

like, they're like, well, what are you contributing? And she's like, here's nine helpful things. Incredible. An absolute fucking icon. So good. And the way in which like all these elements from early in the season come into place. It just feels like such a comforting little tapestry where all the threads have been in place. So like the way that the troll hammer comes up. Yeah. The way that the summer's blood comes up. Spike's dead slayers, you know, like what, what Fool for Love means?

Like the fact that you watch Fool for Love where Spike is talking about like when it is that slayers die without knowing that that's how the season ends is like wild and interesting to me. No question. Doc, Joel Gray's character coming back, Tara's sanity, the vision. etc., etc., like all of that sort of stuff. And then, of course, the Buffy Bot. The way in which the Buffy Bot, which is like, you know, I was made to love you is like a funny little Jane Aspinson sex bot episode,

which turns into this like... Tough look for our guy's bike. Really tough look for our guy's bike. To this, like, decoy moment here. I want to read this email we got from our listener, Bridget, about the Buffy Bot. Let's just talk about the Buffy Bot. Okay. It's in this episode, it counts, right?

Yeah, sure. She says, I do think intervention, the episode, Warren Spike, fucks the Buffy bot. Many times. She can make sketches. It's such a great example why Spike is a character, so many people, including me, Bridget says, are enamored with him. Commissioning the Buffy Bot is such an eGAD spike what the fuck moment. But by the end of the episode, Spike has almost died to protect Buffy and Don and has completely won the audience and a reluctant Buffy over with his actual heroism slash devotion. Mileage may vary.

But that is how she felt. That is certainly how I felt when I was a teenager. Or in my 20s at this point, probably. It definitely doesn't excuse anything that came before, but he still chooses to protect others over his own self-interest, and I, Angelus, would never. This is my bone to pick always with, like, the Spike haters, because I'm like, when people compare Spike with a chip

to Angel with a soul, I'm like, sure. But let's compare Spike with a chip to Angelus. Like, the things that Angelus does and the things that Spike, he has his choices limited by the chip. There's a leash on him. I understand that this all sounds like Cope. But you have a type. He's a problematic fame.

Cope springs eternal. Okay. This email is basically my, like what I was texting you while watching this episode. You're like, oh, no, don't make the spike. And I'm a huge spike enthusiast. I've just loved getting to experience Spike through your eyes, through my eyes. Yeah. I texted you like some version of like, don't fuck the Buffy Bot.

Oh, fuck the Buffy Bot. And then by the end, I sent you the Godfather 3 meme. Like, they pulled me back in. So that is the journey. I mean, Spike, you know, as is always the case, there are some deeply toxic and horrible moments outside of the Buffy Bode. I mean, as usual, like, the way he's treating harmony is just appalling. Yeah, crush is a, is a fascinating episode.

I do want to quickly finish this email. She says, he's taking the widest path towards redemption, but it's a hell of a journey to watch. I also think it's interesting that the Buffy Bod is a really fascinating inversion of the Madonna whore complex. Despite being a sex bot, Buffy bot is portrayed is rather chaste and pure down to her very covered blouse

and knee-length skirt, but she still fucks. Buffy's sexuality and goodness are not at odds within Spike's mind. In addition, the quote, relationship itself is quite loving and perverse. He's not interested in a misogynistic

power fantasy of dominating the Slayer through violence. Sure, he's corrupting her, but it's more of an in-the-bedroom way. Rather, he wants to know what it's like to be submissive to the Slayer's goodness. With that being said,

despite the Freudian flip. Spike's idea of Buffy is still inherently problematic by reducing Buffy to a slutty saint, for lack of a better word, he still fundamentally misunderstands or reduces the complexity of Buffy as a whole person. We all agree. The Buffy bot's bad. I believe Buffy called it obscene. But he's really just starting to get to know Buffy and has only just revealed his deliberate choice to fully ally himself with the slayer.

Buffy's rejection of the Buffy bot while acknowledging the genuine help he provided is a fundamental first step toward creating an actual emotional bond between the two characters. And I just want to do a quick, like, what I think is fascinating about Spike's sidebar. which is about the civil war inside the writer's room about Buffy and Spike. So Jane S. Mason, who wrote, I was made to love you an intervention, among other episodes. The Spike redeems himself to spite fucking a Buffy bot episode. Yeah. It's a thought. It's like the world's number one Spike and Buffy supporter.

She loves it. She loves this. David Fury, who wrote Crush, among other things this season, hated the idea of Spike and Buffy, was getting in fights with fans on message boards. about there. He was like, I think it's obscene, perverse. Like, I think it's very bad. There's that sequence inside of the episode crush where Tara and Willow are talking

about the hunchback of Notre Dame and how, like, you know, which is just like a very, might as well be transparent sort of comp for the Spike Buffy relationship. But I do think that the way in which the writer's room were in their own tug of war over Spike's redemption is part of what makes it one of the juiciest, like, Two steps forward, one step back. Yeah. Character arc redemption. I think even juicier than something like Sawyer,

even juicier than something like Jamie Lannister. I'm biased, of course. But I just think that like the fact that there was someone in the writer's room was like, no, remember who he is constantly. Yeah. When you're watching Crush and like Drew bites those humans in the bronze and then Spike drinks from them. And you're like, uh, you know? But.

Dave Fury's like, that's who he is, man. You got to remember it. When he makes his big speech at the end, he has tied both of them up. Yeah, I think that's really interesting to know because I think that manifests in the story. In a way that for me, I certainly understand why there would be people who watch the show when it aired, or especially now who are like, this is like just, yeah, I kind of can't get with it. I love it. I think the fact that Spike is... I obviously, of course, love it.

I really do understand, though, why people would not. I... There's a version of it where the questions, the concerns that you would have as a viewer, are not acknowledged in the story that is, like, not only not effective, but really galling. Yeah. The fact that Buffy and Spike inside of their relationship have so many exchanges about how his behavior, his tendencies, his longing, the problems there, but also the other characters. Like, frankly, I almost thought this was like a degree too extreme in this stretch.

But when they think that Buffy and Spike are fucking, every single Scooby is like, no. Right. No. All of them, right? And then you have the balances on the other side of like we've seen the affection that. Even though Zander's like, well, very hot. So I do get it. Bobby's like, I'm not having sex with them.

But are you? I'm beginning to wonder if you are a great moment. You know, we see what Spike looks like through everybody's eyes. So we see the moments that he and Joyce have shared. We see the relationship with Spike and Dawn, which, like, Buffy is at times in the season very disturbed by is, like, so compelling to watch because we get to see a nurturing side of Spike. To me, little bit, which is what he calls Dawn, is right up there with pet in terms of, like, Spike. Different buckets of whatever. But just, like, little bit.

Come on. Yeah. you have a moment where Buffy is basically calling upon him to help. And he's like, that's a lot of like manly, I'm going off the dome. But like that's a lot of like a manly responsibility to put on me right away. But we've seen that he's just sort of inclined to do it actually, right? And so when you're building toward crucial moments in the final episodes of the season where Buffy, there's a rationalization of it, like he's the only one who's strong enough to take glory, even though we will actually hear Buffy say to Willow, you're the only one who's damaged her at all. and Spike is like routinely got in his ass.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, there are, you're going to have to watch a lot of Buffy copium in terms of like the Spike stuff. I can't wait. Her being like, this is fine. So like this is my question. They have this incredible, like one of the best scenes ever, I think, inside of this episode. When he says, I know you'll never love me.

I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man. And that's, and then he says, get your stuff. I'll be here. Like he doesn't, he's like, he's, so it's a self-indulgent moment where he's like, let's talk about me for a second. And then he like sort of remembers, oh, like, we're doing a thing. Like, get yourself, I'll be here, right? Again, compared to Angelus's repulsion for anything resembling humanities by being like, you treat me like a man. And that's like the most important thing to him.

I loved that moment. And part of the reason that I love Spike, and there are obvious ones, he's insanely hot. He's incredibly funny. one of the things I love about Spike is like to me, we've talked a lot about the honesty of the show, the truth of the show, the reality of the show, right? And how the fact that it's supernatural actually heightens that. Of all of the...

I want to be careful how I say this because Spike does a lot of, as we just outlined, like, really fucked up things that are not okay. So I don't want to say that that's true for all people. But a thing that I think is true for a lot of people, for human beings, is that we are really selfish. and always think about ourselves. I just think that's how people are. It doesn't mean you're not also capable of thinking about other people.

Hopefully you can do both. But these moments where Spike is like, I want people to see me this way or how do I see myself? We talked about this a lot with Fool for Love. Like, I just think that he's more honest than a lot of the other characters are. So is Anya. Like Spike and Anya are sort of the, we got an email about this, or maybe a comment,

but like this idea of like Cordelia being the sort of like truth teller on the show And when she leaves Anya and Spike come in to be like the truth tellers. The moments where Spike were everyone in the Scoobies are like, oh, she's fine. And he's like, she's barely hanging on or like, Willow won't do this. And he's like, oh, you really? He's like, I would. I would. Are you kidding me?

Like, what are you blind? Yeah. So like the moments of insight and empathy that he has, or if not empathy, then at least insight, you know, that he has for the people that the people around them who know them best are not willing. missing. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think like, I don't know, when you fall in love with somebody, yes, that's about them, but like it is also about you. It's about how they make you feel, right? And it's about how you think they see you. And so I just love the way the show portrays Spikes infatuation with Buffy, even though she is often so cruel to him and diminishes him. They're entwined with that is that being near her makes him want to be a little bit better.

And that's meaningful. A better man. Yeah. And, and... I think he's always in our minds. On that front, in this back half of the season, I would say that, like, while Spike is typically the one misbehaving, Buffy says some really hurtful things to Spike in the back half of season five.

Like, I think specifically the, like, you can't love without a soul idea, you know, like, you don't know what feelings are. Like, Spike is a character who feels really deeply. He doesn't always know what to do with that, but he feels. He's a lover boy. He always has been. You sure is. So, like, you know, at the end of 18, when Buffy impersonates, Botfi. Oh, Bafie. Yeah. I just started to be Botfi in my notes for sure. I love it. The incredible Mope scene, obviously, just amazing. Really funny. But the fact that, like, again, I'm such a sucker for this when like someone can recognize yeah when someone's real or not inside of like a genre story well especially because and this is very it really is satisfying none of her friends can tell it

her difference she's like guys what the fuck like you all thought that was me that's insane but it takes like one touch of the lip for spike to know that it's spike through like one closed eye you know he's a pulp but then what she says to him like that thing it wasn't even real what you did for me and that was real. I won't forget it. He's learning. Okay. So good.

Let's talk about Giles. What Giles does in this episode. So like his anger earlier in the episode, the way in which he and Buffy are at odds in this episode. Then of course, like what he does at the end of the episode, which is like, she's a hero. I'm not. By the way, let's just add Buffy to the mountain of heroes who say, I don't kill humans. Yeah. That's kind of.

Literally in spiral, which was just. just a few episodes previous, she killed several nights of the Byzantium. Like, she flung them off a movie Winnebago and their, like, cohorts were like, you killed a bunch of our guys. I think those guys were human. I mean, they weren't, like, normal, but they were human. So, like. More importantly.

Yeah. She was, like, driving to the horses. Which is not okay. That was not okay, mommy. She just, like, definitely killed many humans. But she and Matt Murdoch both are like, we don't do that. So sure. Okay.

And then the conversation he has with Buffy on the couch here. I asked Carlos to do a little mix of one of our favorite season two moments with this episode 22 moment. Can we watch this, please? I don't have a choice. You have a choice. You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice. I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. If everything just gets stripped away.

I don't see the point. I just wish that... I just wish my mom was here. That's one of my favorite scenes so far. Yeah. I loved it. Giles and Buffy on the couch in the training room. The reason I was thinking about lie to me, I was thinking about, like, the idea of choice is so important in Buffy in general.

But like, that moral clarity that she has at 16 in a world where her mom isn't dead and, like, all these in her and her boyfriend hasn't, you know, turned into a, you know, turned into a disdive. demon and like all these other things haven't happened to her yet, that moral certainty where she's just sort of like, you have a choice. It's not a good one, but you have a choice. And she has, you know, which we agreed with her. You know, we're not like on Ford's team inside of that episode. But like, but like how much harder that that notion becomes after everything that she's been through. And then the choice she makes at the end of this episode, right? She's like, these are the choices kill Dawn or the world ends. And then she figures out, I have a choice. choice. It's not a good choice, but I have one. And it's to fling my, my body into this, you know,

terrible CGI'd sort of like, a bit thing. Abyss thing. Yeah. So, but yeah. And then Giles and Buffy being at odds inside of this episode is so good. What did you feel about this? Why this scene resonate so much with you and Giles' purpose inside of this episode? I mean, so, On the Buffy front first, like what we saw in the clip, what we heard in the clip, the lead into that, the, like, reflecting on Angel and sacrificing Angel and how much she loved him, but like knowing it was right, knowing it was necessary and knowing it was right. And talking about all of the different apocalypses they've navigated and how they found a way to make it through and then saying, like, I don't have that anymore. Right? It's just devastating. You already mentioned this a few minutes ago and we were talking about Spike, but the way that what we hear in the subway sequence of Full for Love then kind of washes over us here, thinking about that idea of like, Spike is positioning it as a longing, right, a craving, like a need to touch this thing on the other side of the veil. And maybe that's part of it because we do hear Buffy. It's what you guys, you're at Dracula's in the same thing. Indeed. Well, and I think in the mind palace comatose Buffy Willow stretch in the way to the

penultimate, part of what Buffy is admitting to herself and to Willow and conceding is like for a second I did want something. That's where I gave up. Yeah. Yeah. And so that it's very present on our minds there as well. But I think here it's just like it's there's just a hopelessness to it. it, right? Like, I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. It's just so sad. And I think that, like, because it's a character who, you know, I love that you paired it with that season two moment, what Buffy has done for other people and helped unlock for other people, but because Buffy is a character who we, no matter how hopeless it feels, we expect to, like, find a way forward, right? You know, I, I've said before on many, many, many pods that, like, the forest again,

chapter of Deathly Hallows is my favorite chapter. And there's like, that was on my mind just in general in this finale, like watching what Buffy does. I think especially the not, you know, there's that moment with Dawn, but there's not actually a final moment with everybody else that you know is a final moment, very reminiscent of like walking past Ron and Hermione and like not saying goodbye. With Giles, so you have the fact that they're disagreeing. Giles is saying actually, like, we should just kill Vision. You know? Yeah, we don't trade lives.

We don't trade lives. But like, what if we did? Maybe that would be the right decision. We don't trade lives down so many times. I mean, it's like, it's very hard not to think about that. Yeah. So, you know, Giles is doing the unenviable, unpleasant, kind of horrible, gross thing, which is the practical thing. Yeah.

Of saying there's actually only one path forward. Now, Buffy has this like, death is your gift. I've gone through this journey with the guide. Death is your gift. That gets stuck in my head all the time, just the way that that voice ever works. It's really good. Death is your gift. Buffy has, you know, her journey with figuring out what that means that is only hers, right?

Yeah. But still, I love that we got this kind of like this conflict between them right before what could have been, and I still don't know exactly what, you know, how it will be undone in season six, like the end. because Giles is so often a character who I think of as being like really loving and nurturing and tender and he is that in a lot of moments in the back half of this season, you know, the babysitting, the helping with the dishes and the dinner, etc. But he also is like he can be severe, you know, and some of that is like the Ripper when it rears. A lot of Ripper pops here at the end of season. For sure. And some of it is also like the what it meant to be a part of the Watchers Council and then we're just. that but then have to hold, and especially because in this stretch of episodes, he,

the Watchers Council is back, Quentin is back, and Giles has moments where he's like, fuck that. Like, you don't, you don't get to stand there and say, well, we have this, like, greater calling and cause. It's like, what about the person I love? So he has moved in and out of that circumstance. And that also, to me, feels true to life. I think that at the end, watching him kill Ben, him, to him saying to Buffy killed Don,

I assume mileage, like, may vary for people on how that sits. Giles going in at the end to kill Ben so that Buffy didn't have to, I thought, ruled. Yeah. Honestly. Like, it's a horrible thing to watch. The way he performs it is just like... It's so good.

And there's a like... On the one hand, it kind of like, she would never do this because it's not who she is. It's like, she's not faith, right? This was the source of the rupture between Buffy and faith. Yeah. But there's also a like...

Buffy doesn't kill humans unless... Unless other than the legions that she's... There's a like, it's not who she is, but it's also the degree of like... And I want to make sure that can be true for as long as possible. Yeah. Yeah. She has to lose so much of her innocence and her childhood inside of the season and he's like, let's give her this one thing.

I like what you're talking about in terms of like the despair, the like giving up, all the things that she's feeling about the choices and the end here. So that when she makes the decision to Dawn, it actually is framed as sort of this hopeful moment of clarity. It's sort of a moment of uplift despite us watching everyone be devastated by it happening. But like the two big deal lines come out of this episode. Death is the stretch. Death is your gift is one of them, at least for me.

I think about it all the time. And then the hardest thing in this world is to live in it is like. I thought that was amazing. An absolutely iconic Buffy line. I put this in the nose, but like I can't tell if I think it's like unbearably corny that Sarah Michelle Geller modified the speech. in her tribute, her lovely tribute to Michelle Trackenberg, or it's incredibly emotional. I think it's both, but I know that I cried a lot.

When Michelle Trachnabird died, Sarah Michelle Geller posted essentially this speech from the end of the gift, but reversing some you and I being the one who's surviving here. And again, like, I don't know. And as, you know, we'll talk about next season, we'll talk about sort of some of the tribute posts that happened for Nicholas Brendan, but like, it's, because it was from a season six scene of Xanders. But like, I don't know. Because on the one hand, I do think it's how these actors sort of like, I don't know, performative grief on social media is always something that like makes me feel a little weird. But I do think it's almost like comfort that they're giving for their fandom of just sort of like, here's a way to process this.

It's a story you're familiar with, and it's a story we've all shared together, and it's a story we can understand. Okay. I've decided it's not corny, and it's actually very emotional. But like, but like it's, it also doesn't, I don't think they owe us their authentic grief experience. So I think sometimes instead we get this sort of like through the sheen of something else's version of their grief. And I think that that is great and fine, that they should put this. distance, but also share something with, you know, their fans who are looking for stability or understanding through something like this.

So, I don't know. That's something I grapple with a lot of time. On fake-out deaths or not. This is something that you and I talked about between last weekend this week, where you were like, I'm so curious. Joanna, you hate a fake-out death. How do you feel? Like, we were talking about this buffy death.

Here's something that Stephen Denight said about sort of the buffy death. death, right? Joss kept saying, oh, she's dead, she's dead, she's dead, she's rotting in her grave. He said this on the internet, and sure enough, she's dead, and she's rotting in her grave. And how he brings her back is perfect, it's not easy, it's never easy coming back, it's hard to go home, and it will be very much so for Buffy. So that was something they were saying, he said an interview between season five and season six. So it was like, she's dead. We're not pretending she didn't die here. She is dead. Yeah, okay. But she will be back. Yeah, yeah, sure. And they said that just right away.

Okay, interesting. The show is continuing. She will be back. So here's in the summer of 2001 between season 5 and season 6, when the show transitioned from Warner Brothers to UPN, and we'll talk about that sort of bidding more in a second, just because it informs the storytelling here. UPN had already picked up Buffy for two more seasons when this episode aired. So the fans who were dialed in, which is not everyone, not everyone's reading where the network bidding were. physical TV guide magazine or whatever. But the fans were dialed in knew that this is not the end of Buffy.

This is not a series finale, even though it feels like a serious finale. Warner Brothers promoted it as a series finale because it was the last episode that was airing on their network. So it was a kind of like petty bitchy move. They were like tuned in for the series series finale. Don't be a me. What a diva. Mummy vampires there. But Buffy lives this like poster and billboards all read with just her eyes.

And it said Buffy lives. on UPN this fall October 2nd on UPN we're up everywhere so like Buffy will come back Buffy lives

like it's happening we're not telling you how tune in to find out but that's happening so she's dead she will live again that is something of the fandom news

so it's something I feel comfortable telling you I hope that's okay with you it's too late I already did it we can save the actual discussion of this for the season six pods

when I have more context for how it happens. But when we had that conversation the other day, we both mentioned the John Snow of it all. And I said to you, like, that was on my mind not knowing Buffy died, but then having the clarity, I'm like, knowing what this show means to you and the character means to you, I was like, clearly this has this informed how Joe felt about. Yes. Choices in other shows. Yeah, I mean, okay, so the doc character says it in this season when, when Don is talking about bringing Joyce back. He's like, you know, oftentimes.

Right. This doesn't go very well. And there's the Willow Tara, like, conversation about the resurrection magic and, like, all that too. So, like, you know, it doesn't go. Like, there should be a cost. Yes. We talk about this all the time. There should always be a cost.

And so the way, it really didn't occur to me until this rewatch, like, how well the show engages with the cost of this decision. Yeah. I'm excited to see. Informs how pissed off I get when there is no seeming costs. across other stories. Because I'm just sort of like, this is what I was taught. It should be like,

like, when Angel comes back from hell. Sure. And he's feral, at least for a couple episodes. You know? There should be a constant. Jane to the fucking wall. Okay. And I, the only other,

I don't know really much about season six, other than I know people say it's very dark. Yeah. So I don't know how much of that is about this or other things. I'll find out. So there was, here was the bidding word.

Basically, this is a, this is a 20th century Fox show that aired on the Warner Brothers Network. That happens all the time. time, right? That, like, one studio is making it, another studio is, anyway. The contract was up. And Fox wanted, because they believed Buffy was a huge important show for Warner Brothers, which it was, they wanted $2 million an episode. They were getting $1 million, they wanted $2 million for season six and seven. And Warner Borders was like, we can't do that. They're like,

we got to invest in seventh heaven and all these other shows. Like, we're not, we're not going to invest in Buffy. I did like Seventh Heaven. And so they got to invest in. And so they got to invest in, we're all the way up to 1.8, but they couldn't get to two. But UPN was like, we'll do two. And UPN was like a nothing network at this time. You know, and they weren't even the CW yet, which they will become. But like, so they said too. So what the, Joss did write this end of the season as if perhaps it would be the last because his contract was not renewed. Like, he didn't have a place to go while he was writing the stepso. By the time it aired, they knew it was going to go. But he sort of conceived of it as this like, if this is the end,

Okay. If nobody can figure the shit out, let's end it in a way that feels like a solid end. So it could have ended here. For sure. But by the time they like shot it and by the time it aired, like they already knew that they were going somewhere. Sarah Michelle Geller had said in the press,

I'm not going. The WB is my home and I'm not leaving. And then the lawyers were like, that's not how contracts works there. You're contracted through season seven. Now by the end of season seven, when season seven rolled around, Sarah Michelle Geller's like,

I'm actually tired of being Buffy all the time. And so she's actually the reason why Buffy ended in season 7 because Sarah was done. So we'll talk about that when we get there. Interesting. Okay. But that is the gift. Death is your gift. What a twist.

It's her death. Anything else you want to say about this episode before we get into our superlatives? I don't think so. It'll come up in a couple categories. Sure will. Let's go down to our superlatives. All right. Starting with favorite line, I'm actually going to give it to the hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

Me too. That's such a banger. Sorry. I can't really top it. That is just amazing. That's really like all-time stuff. That's the winner for sure. Should we do some runners-up?

Yeah, what are your winners? Let's see. Episode 15, Spike to Buffy at the party. Oh dear. If looks could stake. I loved that. Also from that episode, Buffy to Warren. This could have gone in horniest or funniest, but she's not a toy, Warren says.

I know what you're thinking, but she's more than that. And then Buffy says, I'm sure she has many exciting labor-saving attachments. Many exciting labor-saving attachments. It's just incredible writing. Let's see. So on the death is your gift front, from episode 18, the guide also says, before that, love is pain. And the slayer. Forges strength from pain.

Love, give, forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift. And then Buffy's like, literally, what? Which is very funny. But I just thought risk the pain was great. I really likes that.

On a similar front, I have a spike line, which again just eases the burden of my very lengthy spike category answers. Why the blood, right? Blood is life, lack brain. Why do you think we eat it? It's what keeps you going. Makes you warm, makes you hard, makes you other than dead, because it's her blood. And I just want to shout out lover's walk when he says, love is in brains, children, it's blood.

This has been a spike drum. He's been banging for a while now. But like, blood makes you warm, makes you hard, makes you other than dead. And it's the delivery of that line is so good in the finale. I love that as well. I think my last nominee for a contender for favorite line, two Willow. lines from the Penultimate episode from 21. All this, it has a name.

It's called guilt. It's a feeling and it's important, but it's not more than that, Buffy. I just loved that. I loved that. Isn't it nice that the show remembered that they were friends? Oh, my God, I know.

You didn't ask for this, but you do it every day. And so you want it out for a second? So what? Maybe those were more picks about liking the idea than the line itself. Sure. I think it has a name. It's called guilt. It's a feeling and it's important,

but it's not more than that. It was just really good. Best villain of the week. So I might be cheating slightly because it's a return. We kind of always cheat on this category. I'm not cheating on this category. You did last time and now I am. It's eligible for Best Villan of the Week for this stretch of episodes, but they're returning.

The return of the Watchers Council. Oh, not Drusilla. Okay. Not Drusilla. I was hoping you would have Drusilla, maybe not. But I'm here. I do like the Drew stuff quite a bit. So your guy, Quentin Travers?

I thought the love of your life, Quentin Travers. This was, this was interestingly done. It's less to me about the council, though I did get a real kick out of the, the chick in the Watchers' counsel. I mean, like, I don't. I had that as a deep runner up on hornyest moment. Incredible. Okay. So right away they come in.

And, you know, so in episode 11, Giles is going. going to England. There's a lot of Anya comedy that we'll talk about in that category. Yeah. But the idea that we have to seek out their help at all is like meaningful and significant given the rift, right? So then they come back and, you know, not only the rift after helpless, but everything that we saw with the faith, the faith buffy, uh, bodies pop episodes, all of it, right? You still have this little part of you that's like, maybe they'll be okay this time. No, right away. They get in, shut down the magic box. Threaten to deport. Court Giles. Fuck you.

That Giles line, they can kill you with the strike of a pen. That was so good. The insecurity that they spark in Buffy again, right? No one could have done any better than you is something that Giles says and Buffy replies, but no one else is going to be asked the questions that I can't answer. Like, they just take Buffy right back to that place that she was when they ruled her life. Yeah. Which I thought was really effective to watch.

the shameful tactics that they employ, the Giles calls them out on, you know, the scandal here is not anything you've done wrong. It's the way they're behaving, holding what they know, hostage. And then most effectively of all, of course, is again, the breakthrough for Buffy. Like, once again, Buffy is able to navigate this

and reach a point of clarity. I've had a lot of people talking to me the last few days, everyone just lining up to tell me how unimportant I am, and I finally figured out why power. I have it. They don't. This bothers them. It's just so good.

Did it feel at all to you now that you've seen Labyrinth reminiscent of Sarah saying, you have no power over me? Yeah. Yeah, Skydove. Really, really good. You know, better than Olaf, who can say? That's a great. That's a great. Olaf's so funny.

I did not cheat. Not in my heart. Really good. What's your pick here? Not Drusilla. Everyone gave it up for Warren Mears. No. Yeah.

Oh, no. Warren. Warren. I was made to love you. Okay. So Warren, here's a credible thing. A couple things. Warren showing up and this is how evil Warren is.

Yeah. Warren shows up and instead of turning off the sex bot he made because he met Katrina who he quite liked, he was just hoping that he just ghosted her essentially, just left her. Let her batteries run out. Yeah. Let her batteries run out. There's no off switch on April. You couldn't just put her out of her. Like, die a fucking bollicle shit from Warren Mears.

And then what is, I think, interesting, honestly, in a way that they don't really even land with glory are the parallels between Buffy and Warren in this episode. There are parallels between April and Buffy in this episode, like, in terms of, like, how can I shape myself to please a man the way that she laughs at Ben's non-joke at the party, et cetera, et cetera. But, like, Warren in this insidious way, saying, like, everyone deserves to be loved, which is a phrase we hear all the time which we agree with. We say, everyone deserves love. But he's like, I deserved this. This was owed to me. So I made it. And I find Warren's incels shit so prescient and so important inside the show.

No question. So I'm giving it up for Warren Mears. Warren just doing the full ex machina here before we had ex machina. It's really good. Adam Bush, I think, is very, very good. And also the way that Warren is also kind of a like there before the grace goes Xander sort of figure as well. For sure. Yeah, for sure.

I just, I really like him. Runner up. I don't know if it counts because he's in three episodes. But Joel Gray as Doc is like incredibly good. And when he shows up in forever and is like, humming Peter and the wolf, or you see a glimpse of his tail under his little robe there. Yeah. And, you know, launching that idea of, like, people coming back wrong.

And then just, like, showing up, like, the tongue is, the tongue will come up in a later category for me. Sure well. Same. The tongue sucks. But, like, Joel Gray is an Oscar-winning actor, star of Cabaret. Like, it's a caliber of performer that they've not had on the show. It shows up for three episodes to play this weird little demon guy. The fact that, like, Buffy beats glory and it's too late because Joel Gray is here to slice the, you know, to slice her open.

It's just like, he's so, and like, you know, what he wanted an Oscar for is Cabaret, where he plays the MC and it's like the goblin energy that he gives off as the MC in Cabaret. Like, he's just always been possessed with this, like, very spooky energy. So even though in forever he shows up to, like, help. he's so scary. Yeah. And then... The pulling of the black in his eyes is like, ooh, boy. So scary.

Yeah. So, yeah. But mostly Warren. I'm absolutely floored by the Warren pick, but I like it. I do feel, I'm putting down a prediction. Yeah. You've said to me every now and then, feel free to make a prediction. This has a whiff to me of the Jonathan, where now I think Warren's back in the show.

Interesting. That's stupid. This feels to me like you're priming me for Warren's return by just putting it down. We'll see. The thing is, like, sometimes I do this and I'm like, I know that Mallory is going to figure this out. But, like, I can't not talk about Warren. I have to. You could have just done, you know, again, you seem to be enjoying being a troll and all offsets, I adjusted.

No. Warren is. Oh, God. Warren matters. This is a good pick. It is. All right. Best fit.

Okay. I am going with, this is a dual Buffy Giles pick when they go to the desert. It's my pick as well. Fucking iconic. Both of them. Yeah. Buffy actually back, my pick is back to back in forever an intervention. Buffy is rocking this like sort of monochromatic look. And Joyce's funeral, she's got this sort of like gray turtleneck, gray pants, gray trench.

And then in the desert, like describe what she's wearing in the desert. So she's in like a chunky chocolate turtleneck and this excellent. Coat. This is a real, the beginning of an enduring chunky turtleneck era for Buffy Vampire Slayer. It will go through, well, the final season's a little more fluttery-sleeved blouse. But like season six, a real chunky turtleneck. Remember when Riley briefly wore a turtleneck because he didn't want Buffy to know that he was going to the vamp den? Do you think that's better than like the little scarf she tied around her neck when she got bit by Dracula? Giles, meanwhile, is in jeans, a black turtleneck sweater and a brown blazer and just looks. I just, it's just, it's. I just, it's. Insanely hot. Very good. Insanely hot.

You texted me about, which I had not actually clocked in real time watching it, but this is, we should mention here, Spike doing a bit of the... That's in my worst fit. Is it? Is that of your best fit? His Riley cosplay? His Riley cosplay, which we get multiple versions of. First of all, at one point, he's just wearing the initiative card of pants in this sweater.

The Green Army sweater is actually in my best fit category. Because Spike begins. his pivot towards clingy sweaters, which will dovetail into an outfit that I have sent you from season seven. The purple. Yeah. It's like absolutely like slutty, clinging sweater that he wears in season seven. But the clingy sweater era starts here with the Army green sweater.

Okay. For sure. The two, we get the, the blue button down with the black t-shirt under it and then the green button down with the gray t-shirt under it, some baggy slacks. I think because he's trying to just like, it feels like a mind game from him, right? in a way that I He's like Shows up

the bronze is drinking a Budweiser All of Spikes food and drink intake at the bronze continues to just delight

wonderful stuff Okay Some runners up Yeah Joyce's Date night I was made to love you

Halter number Also just the Incredible conversation About About where her bra is On the dessert cart Wonderful stuff So good

In intervention The BuffyBots Kiki little outfit painted pink skirt with a leather jacket. Love that. Ben in every single glory dress and robe he has to wear. I think he's pulling it off.

Ben, a pretty useless character, but I think he looks great in those dresses. So good job, Ben. And I mentioned the green sweater. And then, yeah, that's it. Anything else you have in Best Fit? All right. Worst fit, dear God, what were we wearing? I regret to inform you that in blood ties and tough love,

Buffy wears a skinny sequenced scarf, which was just one of the worst things that happened in the early 2000s. Just a razor-thin, sparkly scarf situation. Horrid. You don't think this one's going to come back around? Dear God, no. Low-rise bad enough. What do you have?

So I'm also going with something from blood ties, which it's the gift giving for Buffy's 20th. And she receives, quote, less killing, more frilly, this Paris? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. And then everyone is like, oh, I want it.

I'm just like, I need it. Giles is like, I already have it. And I was like, what is happening? What is happening? This is insane. What is going on? I just did not understand it at all. Here's the only thing I have to top this.

Which is at this, like, I was made to love you party, which I'm very, confused by. Who's throwing this party? Seems like it's happening on campus. Why is Ben a med student there? I have so many questions about... Very confused about that. Why is Ben a med student there? Spike a hundreds-year-old vampire I have no problem with, but Ben, age gap. Let's back off the 20-year-old, maybe. At that party, Willow is wearing a lay over a fuzzy green turtleneck. A very classic, I'm wearing an Eskimo outfit to this party. sort of move from Willow, I just thought I'd shout it out. All right, Anya's Most hilariously blood and or horny moment.

You've got a clip for this. You want to roll it? Let's do it. So are you more relaxed? No. No? I mean, it sounded like you arrived. No. Yes.

I had the pleasure moment and the blissful calm that comes right after it. but that only lasted a couple of seconds, and now I'm terrified again. This is the best character in the history of television. Anya is so perfectly you-coded. I love her. I would die for her. Thank you.

I had the pleasure on it and the blissful calm that comes right after, but that only lasted a couple of seconds, and now I'm terrified again. This is from the finale, from the gift, they're supposed to be looking for the sphere, but they went for a quick fuck instead. In the basement. And it's just absolutely perfect. I have, as always with Anya, 800 runners up.

But that was my winner. What do you have? What's your pick? I already mentioned from I Was Made to Love You, she speaks with a strange evenness and selects her words, a shade too precisely. And Zander says, well, some of us like that kind of thing in a girl. And then just like the look she gives him is just like very sweet. But also when I was made to love you, oh, well, when she and Tara are talking about the

internet, which we'll come back. She says, oh, well, at first it was confusing. Just the idea of computers was like, whoa, I'm 1100 years old. I had trouble adjusting to the idea of Lutherans. That was great. I thought that was really funny. What else? What are you, some of your runners that?

Oh, my God. Some more, but what are you? Boy. Okay, so weirdly, given that episode 11 triangle is not the best episode or my favorite, I had like a thousand category nominees from it. Yeah. And I did think the Anya Willow stuff was really good. Like the way that their respective jealousy and protectiveness, like manifested, I quite

I liked a lot of great Anya lines in this sequence. Here's one note I have for that. Yeah, tell me. When Ania's like, you and Zander, like, cheated together Cordelia, I don't like it. And Willow's like, gay now. And I'm like, that's not a great answer. Doesn't make you're gay. You guys did that.

Yeah. I would prefer more, I would never do that again. That was a horrible thing I did. Not gay now. Fuck Willow. I think Willow is, like, out of pocket that whole episode. Yeah. Oh, totally.

Which is part of what I like about it, actually, because we should. sort of are accustomed to seeing Anya misbehave and Willow be like super rational and like well reasoned and Willow's kind of you're like, look, that's not a nice thing to say or a nice thing to do. And like, you actually are stealing and like all that. So a few Anya just bangers in this. Giles saying he's leaving town. He's panicked and she's like, that's great. That's it. Two words. That's great. Killed me. She's so excited that he's getting the fuck out and she gets to run the store. Willow, of course, is just actively like she can't run the store. Giles is a little more subtle about it, it requires finesse.

To which Anya says, I have finesse. I have finesse coming out of my bottom. I can completely lie to the help inspector. I can, you know, distract him with coy smiles and bribing with money and goods. Just incredible. And then in the Willow, getting pissed at Willow stretch, this is how we build toward it. Zander, she's talking to Giles, like, I'm not here, make her stop.

Incredible, because, of course, then she's doing that exact thing. In the argument with Willow, this was great. You're referencing literature. I have no way to be familiar with. It's killed me. You're trying to make me feel leapt out and you're stealing. This is so funny.

Oh, oh, I know what this is. This is peer pressure any second. Now you're going to make you smoke tobacco and have drugs. Not do drugs. Have drugs. Incredible stuff. That was all from episode 11. My last one is from the body.

You already mentioned this, the Santa Claus conversation. Don goes all true. And Ania says, well, he doesn't traditionally bring presents so much as, you know, disemboweled children, but otherwise. I love it. She's the best. A wrap really quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. Episode 12 with the Watchers Council when she says, you know, they don't sound very ex-deam and compatible. I was dying in the, I was younger and therefore smaller and shorter than I am now. So you spell it A&Y then? Like, that just killed me. I was cracking up. That was so funny. The whole way that stretch was edited. The Willow and Terra stuff, too. Amazing. Episode 13, they're trying, Scoobies are trying to convince Buffy to accept the party. And Willis like, you know what they say? The bigger they are. And Anya says, the faster they stomp you into nothing.

When the Scoobies are interacting with Dawn for the first time in that same episode after learning the truth, that Don is the key. And like immediately explaining why Buffy and Giles kept it from them because they were all terrible at this. And then like, Dawn, who has constantly in this season been in close. close proximity to conversations that don't need to be happening where she could hear them, which drove me crazy, actually. It's used so many times. It's really bad. That's a big note I have.

It doesn't make any sense. That said, they conducted conversations to public libraries for a really long time. Maybe they think it's fine. And Anya, a couple of these moments where Don's like, you know, everyone gets quiet and I know you're talking about me. You make a very pretty little girl. This is Anya just trying to be normal. Sanders like, Anya.

You want to help me with that thing? And then Anya says, Ha ha! Sandra needs help with this. It killed me. Absolutely incredible. And then she's another attempt to cover is, you know us. Sometimes we like to pretend stuff, you know, like say there's a fireman or a shepherd,

just a very specific role play scenarios that she's sharing with this child, incredible stuff. At the party in episode 15, you mentioned the internet stuff already, the tech talk with Tara. I don't know why the little. little checks mix thing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The woven match, the little woven mess. Sanders, like, they don't do it by hand. Green patty is so good. Incredible. When their response to their not woven, you know, is then how? Like, she's missed the vibe is so good. And then when Zander's getting car sick in the RV in episode 20, and she says he doesn't travel well, he's like, fine shrimp. The shrimp keeps coming off. The bunnies come up again. Yes. The alternate dimension where

there's no shrimp. Tara's like, I'm allergic. Very rewarding. Most 2000 thing. Oh, yeah. Speaking of this, the exchange and I was made to love you between Tara and Anya, where Tara says I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's depressing. It's one of my favorite lines, honestly.

Sure. But I go online sometimes is such a 2000 thing to say. 2001, I guess, is one that was. Also, the role of April was written for, do you want to guess? Is it someone who, so it has to be someone who was like known? Very, very, very known. Jessica Beal. More known.

But not for acting. Oh. For what? Singing. Oh, I have no idea. Dancing. Christina Aguilera. Close.

Brady Spears. I got pretty close. I got pretty close. I can't take close-ish. Yeah. Wow. For Britney Spears and she turned it down. Because she said she wanted to hang out with the Scoopies not play a sex spot.

Fair enough. She was a Buffy fan. She wanted to be on it, but she did not want that role. Incredible. Wow. So that's my most, my most do. That is one thing. A role written for Britney Spears. A connected element, actually. I had boy bands because when Giles is babysitting and the conversation in episode 15 where he's like, 14's too old for a babysitter, right? I'm not doing this again. And he says they listen to, quote, aggressively cheerful music sung by people chosen for their ability to dance. And we ate cookie doing. We talked about boys. Great stuff. But yeah, that's a... Cash, obviously just cash. Anya's obsession with cash is a very like time capsule-y thing.

You know, this was just, what are you going to... What was you talk about now? Zell? Venmo? About the fact that they're discontinuing the penny. That freaks me out every time I see it. It's really scary. I don't like it either.

Okay, this is one where I want to take you behind the curtain here. For your most 2000 thing? Yeah. But yeah, and while also acknowledging, up front that I did not actually like I intended to this morning go back to look at it and actually confirm it was this. So this might all be for nod. Is this another bullcut photo moment of you from you? No. This is about a pen. Oh. In episodes 17, Willow is using a pen. And I was like, I gasped. It ported me so powerfully to this moment in time and using those pens.

And then I was like, so I wrote it down. I was like the pen. That is just a pen. That was the pen. What pet is it? Thank you for asking. This is what? Is it the black, red, green, blue? No. It's the clear plastic with like the, the, you know, the pad and the color. And you can see the, it's a little thicker. Yeah. And it has the, like, the nub in at the end is also the color of the ink.

Yeah. Like a gel pen? But not part of the gel pen craze. Because it's clear plastic. You're about to. So this was my journey last night Googling it because I was like, what the fuck was this pen called? And I was Googling every permutation I could think of of like clear plastic pen 2000 very popular. You know, clear plastic pen slightly thicker 2001.

And finally I got the, the, how do it? Pentel. Oh, yeah, Pentel. Pentel RSVP. The RSVP. Google it. The Pentel RSVP ballpoint pen. You're going to be like, oh yeah.

Oh, yeah. See? I have like so many of. I had so many of these in blue. I had blue and black. I want to say Willow might have been using like purple, but they definitely had green. They had red.

I just right away, I was like, sitting in Marcy Kaiser's room with those pens. Like, it was just like a visceral thing. Did you ever have like a pen that was like your pen? I was a real pilot G2 gel pen for, I would say I still kind of am. You still are? No, I didn't. I didn't, I didn't use these quite a bit.

I wasn't necessarily. The green. I had more of a like a gel pen. a yikes pencil loyalty when I, this was when I was young, that's like an elementary school thing with the fun erasers. That was when I was like a small child. Oh. They were great.

They were so fun. They were a delight. Look at them. But a pen loyalty, I don't know, I did, as we've discussed on other pods, probably buffy pods, maybe stranger things pods. I did have a real gel pen. You know, you get all, you're writing on your back of your hands and like everyone's writing on their, like, trapper key presses off.

I sound in a thousand years old. The guys in the control room were like, what are these crows talking about? That was like a prestige when we found out that Kai, our beloved producer, did not understand the let's all go to the lobby sort of like pre-movie thing. And I was just like, what? I did. I mean, what's happening? Time comes for us all, I guess. Was our bloomin onions of that moment? I mean, they're eternal, I guess. So not really. They still exist. But really like, flourished. Yeah. So Spike's obsession with the flowering. Also a sort of flower-shame. thing they make from an onion, it's brilliant. That's episode 11. He also says they've got this onion thing. And then in episode of 14, he says the flowering onion got remodeled right off the sodding menu. Comes up like a ton. We just talked about the blooming onion. It will come up again in season

six. When were we talking about the blooming onion? What pod were we talking about that on? I feel like it was Buffy Part 1 because I said it was going to come up in season 6 and I was wrong because I forgot that it came up in the back half of season 5. I feel like it was Buffy part one. Because we were talking about like outbacks and chilies and like... It was lanterns because they went to the outback. Oh, okay, okay. And then... And then we got to Buffy.

I can remember the pens I used. What are these crones talking about? Real that energy. Not a podcast we had a week and a half ago. Terrifying. Hornyest moment. We each have a clip. Let's start with yours.

Let's do it. I thought that I made you a... Everything that I wanted, but it wasn't what I really wanted. I'm sorry, but it's over. But I can be whatever you want. I love you. I'll do whatever you want. Would you like a neck wrap?

No, please. The only part of that that actually matters. So you also love Warren Mears. Let us commit to the record the following. When we get to see the menus. Yeah, the heads up. Fetish. Best underscore lover, obviously, amazing.

But when you go down. on the snappy dresser. Kissing, sex, praise, necrops, fetish. Fetish one, fetish two, fetish three. Positions. One, two, three, four, five, six. How many submenus are there? We have no idea.

And then, you know, the follow-up in episode 18 with the bot-fee menus, we have some positions there too, but it's a little more tame, I'd say. Makes Spike happy kissing. It's very sweet. And then position, position. Warren Mears a real sicko. Something think about. What's your clip?

I'm excited. Let's play. You better not be thinking what I think you're thinking. Because my answer is the same as always. No threesomes unless it's boy, boy, girl, or Charlize Theron. That's my pick for funniest moment. Incredible. This is just unbelievable.

I just want to celebrate her. This is Harmony's last appearance on Buffy. But. What? She shows up on Angel. So more incentive for you to watch. watch Angel. But this is, when she's like, say goodbye to this, that's Mercedes-McNab exiting Buffy Vampires. Does she have any threesomes on Angel? Tune to find out. Oh, man. Great stuff.

I have some runners. Oh, well, Joyce talking about a bra. Yeah, that's the, that's the, that's the runner-up as well for me. Okay. Great stuff from Joyce. In forever, when Angel comes back, and as I told you, I cried, this will come up again. But when Angel comes back and he says, stay in town as long as you want me. And Buffy's like, how's forever? Does forever work for you? That's a bad idea. I'm seriously needy right now. And he's like, let me worry about the needies. I can handle it. And then they make out ferociously. And then she's like, I told you, better go. Like, I'm going to fuck you if you stay, right? And he's like, I'm sorry. But here's my follow-up. And the eternal Angel versus Spike Conundrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In this idea of moment of happiness for Angel. And a lot of people have different, is it just the orgasm? Is it just sort of like basking in the afterglow or whatever? Yeah. Could he not have like gone down on Buffy the way that Spike does for the Buffy bot and just sort of like it's about her pleasure and not about his moment of happiness, but her neediness and her moment of happiness?

Go sign. Something that I think would have occurred to Spike but does not occur to Angel. And that's what I think is true. First thing Spike does. What a generous giving lover Spike is to the robot. That's also my list. To the sex. Spice. Spike going to the movie one. And then of course the watcher who. did her thesis on Spike. Great one. You know, just one more brief moment to celebrate the minions and glory here. A lot of incredibly horny stuff.

Glory in a towel, sopping wet, hugging Jinks, saying, oh, sweet, lumpy minion, you're the only one that understands, probably because I haven't sucked. And you're like, oh, your brain out. Yeah. What is, oh, creamy coolness is something that Dreg calls her. Yeah. Jinks calls our glittering, glistening glorificus. So, you know, the compliments are flowing, but they are sexy in nature. Oh, definitely. Creamy coolness. I mean, if Angel could just keep the creamy coolness in his pants, where would we be? I have a technical question. Go ahead. Does he have to like, because if he like comes in the Buffy bot, does he have to like empty the Buffy bot?

Unless it has some sort of like self-cleaning mechanism. I mean, I think Warren was using an RV. Like you do an RV? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you can't just let it build up forever until it explodes. I hadn't thought about that. And I credit you, my beloved, for making me think about the details. I appreciate you. Oh, my God. Incredible stuff. That's pivot to Giles' most dad moment. Great.

Mm, God. I had the, we listened to aggressively cheer. cheerful music sung by people chosen for their ability to dance, be at Cookie Doe and talked about boys as a very dad moment. I had just an insane number of contenders here, but I have a clip for my winner, actually. Let's do it. To slay to kill.

It means being hard on the inside. Maybe being the perfect slayer means being too hard to love at all. I already feel like I can hardly say the words. Buffy. Giles. I love you. Love, love, love, love, love, love, Giles, it feels strange.

I just thought that was very important and magical. His hand on the shoulder the whole time and just telling him that she loves him because she's like her dad. This is a, I was made to love you as well, right? That is from... Or is it? Episode 18.

Oh, okay. Also a sex-bott episode. Got it. Classic. Great. Other contenders? What else you got? Yes.

let's see. The hokey-pokey moment from intervention. And then from Spiral, when he's literally like dying and he says so proud of you, everything, a watcher. And then he correct himself, I could have hoped for. That's my second place one as well. I mean.

Incredible. I just had to lead with like babysitting and hokey-pokey to get to the emotion. But there we go. I don't know where I was like, they're not going to kill Giles. are they? I mean, impaled, you know, speared while driving this caravan. A real wash and a firefly way to go. That's right. Very tough. What else from Giles? I liked all the, again, the Watchers Council stuff, the kind of whisper yelling, like I'm not having you put her through another one of your insane tests. They're all very comforting, bloodless ways of looking at it, isn't it?

She's not your bloody instrument. Just all that protection. Oh, I mean, the body stuff. Yes, of course. When Buffy says to Giles, like, they picked the perfect thing. I can. can't lose you. That's just so good. Let's see. Oh, this is just a like a visual, but in episode 14 when Buffy comes home and Giles is there, she's out with her friends and he's, he's like protecting the home front because they think Gloria might come. And he's just sitting there at the desk, sipping tea, reading a book, keeping an eye on Donna Joyce. And I was just like, I mean, it doesn't get more dad core than that. My heart was melting. Again, I actually thought giving. I actually thought

given the history between like Xander and Spike and Giles and Spike, this was, this didn't overall totally land to me in terms of where we would find those characters. That said, still eligible for this category, I think, Giles in episode 15 after they've all realized that Spike is in love with Buffy going into full like stay away from my daughter mode. I had that in Daddy because it felt very ripper to me. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not your friends. We're not your way to Buffy. There's no way to Buffy. I'd see like crowd Spike against the wall. Man. Very good.

Yes, everything in the body, as you said, in episode 18, doing the dishes, cooking. Yeah, doing the dishes. All of that was just so good. Let's see what else. And then we've talked about the other stuff. She's a hero. You see all that, you know, killing Ben, so she doesn't have to. Really good giles stretch.

Yeah, a week first half, but a really strong second half. Yeah. Laughably bad digital effect. Do we both have Doc's tongue here? How is this not the fruit by the foot? Secret lizard tongue. It's got to be. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, it's very bad.

Wild stuff. I don't, there actually were not a ton of other contenders. No, for this. No, they got all of their weird snake stuff out of the way of the first half of the season. I loved that that came back into play where both these like, this was where I lost the snakey-wakey, so this will plot our course to glory. Great stuff. Dawn.

She sure is here, huh? I mean, blood ties, I actually think, is a very good episode. Yeah. Her like her cutting herself freak out, her scene with Joyce. I do enjoy, and this is just like a funny moment, and blood ties Buffy being like, how is school today. And Don says the usual big square building filled with boredom and despair. And Buffy says just how I remember it.

And also, as I mentioned, Don remembering Ted and I was made to love you. Oh, that was incredible. What do you have? You know, as we've mentioned, I think the Donster. The Don Spike Bond overall and just their. storyline was, I thought, really good. Little bit. Niblet. Wonderful stuff.

My pick here is episode 17, the inversion. Dawn, who has gone on this pursuit to resurrect Joyce, ill-advised pursuit. Oh, yeah. Dawn being the one

to tear the photo when Buffy and they've had this fight, you know, you have me, no, I don't, I didn't mean to push you away, I didn't, I just couldn't let you see me. It's very very intense and emotional. And then, you know, and we're cutting to the Sheffling feet walking and it's like, oh my God, like, are they going to? I didn't know.

You see the silhouette in the window? Yeah. I'm like, zombie joyous about to be back in the show. Like, what is going to happen? And then the knock. And, you know, Buffy has said, don't do this, don't do this. But as soon as we hear the knock, Buffy is the one who's like, mommy and runs to the door. And Dawn has to find a strength to protect Buffy from that.

I think forever is a great episode. Really good. Really good. Yeah. I really love that episode. That's my pick. Jalz is most daddy. moment. I have a clip. This is for you. Oh my god, I'm thrilled.

Well, they're probably already on their way. Our old friend, Quentin, Travers, is heading up a delegation. They put me through that test and almost killed me. And then when I was fate, they almost killed me again. Honestly, I really can't handle almost being killed right now. I don't like the sound of this. This is a visual. It's about the... It's so hot. It's insane. The unbuttoned shirt and the chest hair sort of springing out. And I just thought you would enjoy looking at that. So that's for you. I just find him absolutely magnetic and mesmerizing.

Mine was kind of also a visual. It's actually a sad moment that you've already talked about. It's in episode 17 when Joyce is listening to Tales of Brave Ulysses, and he's sitting and he's playing cream, and he's got a glass of Brandy, and he's sitting in his chair, and it's this very intense thing. But I'm sorry, he looks so hot. He just looks so hot.

And I can only be me, and I was just, like, blown away by how hot he looked. That's so good. So that's my pick. Let's see. What are some other contenders here? Like, as per usual, I have a violent ones. Violent ones, yeah. So it's like when he kills Ben, when he intimidates Spike, and then in tough love,

when he hurts a minion while everyone else is looking away. Yeah, I had that too. Yeah. I had that too. And then he changed his mind. Really proud that he had, yeah, intimidated him. Also, I like. You hear like a crack.

He like broke his fingers or something. And he just, I mean, rapper, like you said. Similarly, when Buffy says, Giles, I'll traverse guy is like, 60. I can't hit him. Can I? And Giles is like, I suppose no. Well, I could. I think I will. And I was like, do it. Do it. In episode 11, even though drool is involved, I don't know that it's meant to be sexy. The Central Library alone, and Buffy's like, don't talk about books again. You get all. I was like, yeah, he does. And sometimes there's drool. I was like, I'm in. I heard all in dear. He's the best. Oh, God. I just love him. I shake my gourd. That's thing we heard Giles say in this episode or this stretch of episodes.

That's what it's all about. It was really funny. All right. When Willo Cries, we cry. I mean, I thought there were kind of two main contenders, right? There's, obviously there's the body and the scene we already talked about at length, which, like, I think is the pick. But because we talked about that so much already, I will take a moment instead to highlight

the Willow Tara. Episode 19 focus, which in a couple different, there's an evolution of what we mean by when Willow cries here. Because the argument, which I thought was amazing, it frightens me how powerful you're getting. That's a weird word. Getting? Like, no, of course, right. It frightens it. It frightens you.

I frighten you. And the way that Willow is so hurt to confront these concerns that Tara has, don't you trust me? Right? With my life, that's not what I mean. I just thought that was amazing. What is it about me that you don't trust? It's not that. I worry sometimes you're changing so much so fast.

I don't know where you're heading. Where I'm heading? Like, it's just kind of the confusion and the despair that Willow feels in that moment. And then we build a couple of scenes later toward her seeing she's mere steps away, but not in time to stop Glory from brain-sucking Tara. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I mean, that was just heart-wrenching.

The fight you mentioned from Teflow, That episode's written by Rebecca Rand Kirchner, who is another writer who I could sort of like spotlight. But she did, she joined in season five. She did tough love. She also did two really important season six episode, Tabula Rasa and Hells Bells, which we'll talk about when we get there. But she's, she's really good at like really hard relationship stuff. And, yeah, I loved. I think tough love is really good.

I think the Tara Willis stuff in tough love is really good. I don't always love, like, the Tara insanity plotline that follows. All of this sort of, like, funny insanity stuff on this show is, like, weird to me. Yeah. But everything leading up. And then, like, I mean, the bench scene is harrowing when Glory shows up, slides her little fangies in Tara's hand and then just, like, squeezes the shit out of her. And also just sort of, like, all these people and you can't do anything because I'll kill all of them.

Right. It's just like, I think that whole part is really good. What comes after I have some questions? Yeah, I agree. It made me think of like Stranger Things Season 3 a little bit with the use of the fair and the idea, the juxtaposition of this kind of like portrait of Americana, you know, the mall, the fair or whatever. And you're like this horrible thing is happening right here. And does anybody notice?

And then in that same episode that we alluded to this earlier, but Willow pushing back when Buffy tells her not to go fight. I love this. You know, this is not your choice. It's mine. This is not the time, Buffy says. When is Buffy, when you feel like it? So when you love as much as I love Tara, I was like, yeah.

Fucking go. Go. Breach. And then, yeah, then like Willow showing up and, you know, fighting gory is very good. I was concerned. It was anxiety-inducing. I was worried. See, Joss Whedon has made you scared that he's going to kill any given character.

Yes. The Hulu thumbnails, however, have made it clear to me that Willow serves. eyes. Alas. Lot of Willow thumbnails to come. I did try not to look at them, but at some point I did. Oh dear. It's the spike category. Oh my god. I can't wait to see what you picked here. Several clips. You should go first. Have we met? You hit me with an axe one time. Remember, uh, get the hell away from my daughter.

You got any of those little marshmallows? Let me look. You get out of this house or I will stake you myself. You're a very bad man. Passions is coming on. Passions? Oh, do you think Timmy's really dead? Oh, no, no. She can just sew them back together. He's a doll, for God's sake.

What about the wedding? I mean, there's no way they're going to go through with that. Care? Joyce was the only one of a lot of you that I could stand. And she's the only one with a daughter. You wanted to shag. I'm touched. I liked the lady.

You understand, Monkey Boy? She was decent. She didn't put on air. is. Was it a nice cuppa for me? And she never treated me like a freak. Sad. A celebration of Spike and Joyce through the seasons.

I liked the lady. I know. It really gets me. Yeah. That's a great one. What a compilation. Thank you, Carlos, for putting all of those clips together that I sent to you late last night. Hopefully you have a hortic-hift-corder.

Funnyer ones. Yes. Let's do my pick for funniest. I'm not sampling or have you know. Look at all these lovely blood cover people. I could, but not a taste for Spike, not a lick. I knew you wouldn't like it.

You want credit for not feeding off bleeding disaster victims? Well, yeah. I mean, that can certainly go in the most spike bucket as well as. That's just so good. incredible amazing reply for Ruffy there like

yeah just so so so good so good so that's my pick for funniest I have some

other contenders there as well but let's do my pick for um I even I cannot

bring myself to put this in hottest so this is going in most Spike okay oh Spike

you're the big bad you're the big bad I mean most Spike exists for that moment. Our guy did not just go to Warren and say, make me one too.

Yeah. He said have her say, I'm the big bad. I'm the big bad. Whoa, fucking her in the cemetery. Astonishing stuff. Memorable, important, astonishing,

incredible reaction shot from Xander and Anya there. Just wild. What are some of your other contenders here? And I was made to love you at the mysterious aloha dance. When Buffy is flirting with Ben, Spike is in the background and, like, deeply out of focus. But James Marster's just giving all of this, like, anxiety body language for Spike watching them flirt, which is just incredible. In Triangle. Zander says, so I think I should run and get Buffy?

And Olaf says, Bar Made, bring me stronger ale and some plump succulent. babies to eat. And Zander says, I'm going to run and get Buffy. Or maybe you could fight him. And Spike goes, yeah, I could do that. But I'm paralyzed with not caring very much. Very Spike. In that same stretch when OLAF says, do you know where there are babies?

And Spike turns to Zander and just goes, what do you think? The hospital? Spike, no. In blood ties, Spike painting his nails. But Buffy interrupts him painting his nails. Yeah. Spike saying, I wasn't lurking. I was standing about completely.

different vibe. You can buy many different t-shirts that say this on them. I wasn't looking. I was standing about. I loved that. That was so good. And then you already mentioned this, but I generally think the most bike moment is the intervention, like, Buffy pretending to be the Buffy Bop moment because it has it everything in there, which is just like, hey, it's absolutely disgusting and repulsive and obscene, gross and obscene, that you made this BuffyBot. But also, you did this other thing. And she gives him like a genuine kiss, which like probably she shouldn't, but she does do that. And he's like swoon, but also I'm all beat up and my hair is tousled. It sure is.

Yeah, it's a lot of luck. So that's my, I think, the most spike because it just has everything altogether. And then I do want to shout out. They don't use it very often. When they do, it actually really works. Spike and Zander chemistry, when they go on their little like side quest in weight of the world, I think it's really good. And the whole Ben is glory as Ben.

Hysterish. When Zander starts it again and Spikes like, this will be worth it and smacks them upside the head and they both say, ow at the same time. I think Spike and Zander, Zander, of course, is going to hate Spike forever because that's who Zander is. But like when they do jam them together, it's really actually fun. So, yeah.

I quite enjoyed the like, are you all hot? Like, if you all just smoked a bunch of pot, that was all really funny. Let's see. Hottest spike moments, ton of contenders. When he says, you're all I bloody think about, dream about you're in my gut in my throat, drowning in you, summers, I'm drowning in you. I can see that Drusilla and Buffy are both changed to the wall. As he says that in episode 14, so as usual we have some notes.

But then he says that, you're like, whoa. episode 15, if you want me to leave, you can put your hands on my hot, tight little body and make me iconic. I really apologize. I mistakenly put that in our previous pod, but of course it is for this, yes. Absolutely iconic. As I already mentioned, going down on Buffy, that's certainly eligible for the hottest spike moment pick here. We already, the blood, it's always got to be the blood. The way he delivered that was very powerful. I liked his commentary on Giles' writing for the funniest category in episode 13. We learned to write so bloody small from a fruit. Killed me. Good Lord. Giles writes as dull as he docks, doesn't he? That was great. Let's see.

Yeah, I loved the standing about exchange as well. That's certainly on my list. Also from that Dawn conversation in episode 13, is that supposed to scare me? And he sighs and he says a little tremble wouldn't hurt? That's like such a great spike moment. Let's see. all the weird Buffy sex stuff feels very

more appropriate in the most spike than in the hottest. I just don't know how to talk about the Buffy bot stuff in a way that makes me seem like a progressive feminist person. Petting the, she's like, where's my blue cashier sweater and then we got to spike petting it? Or we've talked last pot about it. And then Harmony has to. Harmony dressed, that's actually my funniest moment. Slayer roleplay with harmony?

Harmony. Harmony in the like khaki boot cut cords or whatever and the blues. sweater. Really funny. Wild. And then all of the like, I'm kind of attempting to have a normal date stuff that he does. And Buffy's reaction when he reaches across to the glove compartment for the flask and she just like screams and recoils. Um, what is this a date? No. Do you want it to be? Uh, incredible. You can't deny it. There's something between us. Loathing. Discuss. Heat desire. Wonderful. Um, the other sex bot stuff, you know, you're evil and that excites you. It excites me. It terrifies me. Are you afraid of me? Yes. Should I start this program over? No programs. Don't use the word. Oh, my gosh. Again, the way that they're like lampshading, how like obvious the dynamic between Buffy and Spike is. You know what I mean? Where it's just sort of like, I'm drawn to your dark. You're like, we're going to make fun of it. But also it's very good. It is. Just very good. It is. Where, like, do you feel like, I mean, I know you enjoyed Spike when he showed up in season two, but like, how is your spike journey going? Like, oh, it's wonderful. I mean. He's only growing in your eyes in terms of growing, you know, growing in a way Angel just can't, you know. No, I love, I love Spike. I'm having a great time. I just think he's like kind of mesmerizing to watch. Deeply flawed and problematic, but. That's part of it. Hot and compelling. Yeah. Like, I love all the backslides. The backslides are really good. And we feel weird about rooting for him.

and then we do anyway. All right, funniest moment. Hmm. I don't know how to pick. I have so many, but I will say in tough love, when Willow says, well, I took Psych 101. I mean, I took it from an evil government scientist who was skewed by her Frankenstein-like creation

before the final, but I know what a Freudian slip is. Incredible. Really good. My winning pick for this is the Harmony clip that you played. The Harmony Discovering Drew a Spike and the clip that you played, the three-some-one hysterical. Relatedly later when she shows up.

And we haven't mentioned it, but like a great Spike, a great Drusilla episode. Really good. Wonderful. Always fun to see her. A delight. When Harmony shows up later and shoots Spike with an arrow and it's like, what about me, Spike?

You forgot about me again? The actual girlfriend? And you're like, all in. You're like, Harmony, yeah, go, do it. And then she just like, I gave you the best bunch of months of my life. And it's a classic Harmony moment. She kills me. I'll miss her.

I'm sad to know she's gone. What else? Let's see. I liked in general the way other characters described the minions. Kind of mean, obviously. But amusing. Jawa's, right? Tell my sister, I'm sick of running into her Jawa rejects from Ben. And then Zander winning the day with kind of like hobbits with leprosy. Yeah. Really good. Spike with the goggles in the Winnebago in Spiral. Hysterical. An incredible visual. We've already mentioned the Ben and Glory stuff in Way to the World is legendary. stuff of legend. In the gift, when Buffy is like, you fuck with Donnell, I'll kill all of you. And Spike goes, well, not exactly the St. Christmas Day speech, was it? And Giles says, we few, we happy few. And Spike says we banned a buggered.

That was great. Very good. Incredible. Talking about the bronze rebuild, insurance doesn't cover acts of troll. And then the minions. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, shout out to, we talked about drag.

So drag is Kevin Weissman, who of alias fame, big Kevin Weissman fan. I'm big Kevin Weissman fan. So it's like, it's funny to like, I can see his face under the prosthetics. You know what I mean? I'm just sort of like, there he is. There's a guy I know. But the other two main ones, Jinks, which is Troy Blondell, like just comes into the show. Just like runs away with it.

Unbelievable. But shout out Gronks, Lily Knight, who has all the scenes with Ben. I think she's really fun. Incredible. I'm really a fan. So, yeah. The Minions' humor is really good. The minions are fantastic.

In episode 12, when Minion brings Glory the Men, man to braidsawks and it's, ah, very good, delicious. Like, just this kind of commentary track for what Gloria is doing is so funny. Yeah. Really, really kills me. Let's see. What else? We've hit a lot of the big ones.

All right. Most emotional moment. I do have a clip for this. This is not my pick, but I already told you that the angel moment really, like, got to me, him showing up. I, like, just forgot he was in forever. So, like, when Buffy's standing graveside and night turns to dark and then he just, like, slips his hand in her hand and it's just like, oh, Angel's here.

Yeah. I love this scene. And as I mentioned, once they're no longer on the same network, it is much harder to have scenes like this contractually. But this is what our listener Lou wrote in to say, once he leaves the show, Angel fulfills his original plan purpose, which is a guardian angel figure. As a series goes on and Buffy gets stronger, it is really important that people in her life operate as checks on her power.

This means often calling her out, questioning her and keeping her humanity and humility intact. But Buffy is so often the one who has to wrestle with the life-changing and world-changing choices. Her body is the one that takes on all the violence and trauma. She is definitionally isolated a lot of the time. She's the chosen one. And my heart hurts and breaks for her in the moments where she stands alone and is at odds with the Scoobies. Then Angel arrives.

In her moments of loneliness, he comes in and reminds her that there is someone in the world that will unconditionally be on her side. He comes through, not to save the day, not to take her away from all this. He is not the night in shining armor. but to give her that piece of him that will always be hers again and again. And that is so often what she needs in those moments when he comes back, a moment to breathe free in the world that exists only between them. She doesn't know who's in his life and he doesn't ask about who is in hers. It's a shelter, well, except for when he fights with Riley. It's a shelter of a person who is untethered from the complications of your life, but will forever know you anyway.

And I really like that. Yeah. But my emotional moment belongs to someone else. Can we play this film, please? And give my love to my friends. You have to take care of them now. You have to take care of each other. You have to be strong.

I mean, it's all of them, but most especially spying. I will say, so the way that... Oh, man. Sorry. But the way that Spike saggers into the... And there's son, so he has to, like, crouch... Like, he's crumpled by despair, but also there's son there. So he has to, like, crouch down to be out of the sun.

So, like, it doesn't belong there. but is there anyway? And then, like, you know, I mean, we've talked about Alison Hannigan's cry face. It's incredible. Amazing. Anthony Stewart Head is Giles so good. Amazing.

But, like, geez, Marsters. It's all fantastic. It's a full head and hand sob. I can't top it. It's so good. Sorry. I mean, this category is a loaded one this time. Like, mostly because of episode 22 and 16,

which we already talked about at length. But, like, they're just, they are devastating moments. They are so hard. The pre-wrenching. The previously on for the whole series. The vampire who doesn't recognize Buffy and the kid she saves in the year just a girl. That's what I keep saying. The refusal to let Dawn die. And then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her. Like all the stuff we've already talked about. I don't have that anymore moment. And then, yeah, the hardest thing in the world is to live in it. It's all devastating. All of it. Incredible. All of it. Incredible. I have one more from the very important I was made to love you. Amazing. I can't. I do generally think April and Buffy on the swing set is like. Very emotionally devastating as her batteries like drained down and as Buffy is lying to her about Warren and stuff like that. And it's just like, that really gets me. It is really good.

Yeah. Katrina's spine somehow intact. Yeah. How is Katrina alive? I have no idea how Katrina is alive. That's a good one. Yeah, I had some other. Shadow Warren mirrors once again, engineering tremendous moments for us.

I mean, yeah, is Warren the greatest, like, scientific and technological mind? I assume he's going to become not just an insult, but like an evil tech oligarch, we'll see. That episode 18, what you did for me and Don, that was real. I won't forget it a moment is that hit me hard. I certainly think that's eligible here. In episode 17 forever, the, when Buffy is talking to Angel about everything that's happened, and I love this. Yeah, the funeral was brutal, but it's tomorrow that I'm worried about that whole exchange. What's tomorrow?

That's exactly what I don't know. Up until now, I've had a roadmap, things to do every minute. Everybody expects me to know how to do it because I'm strong, like all of that. And then obviously the Joyce Mommy moment at the end there. At the end of the day, I think my pick just has to be the body and Anya speech. I don't know how it couldn't be. But everything else is just devastating as well. Guess what?

It's a really hilarious, horny, action-packed, groundbreaking, devastating show. I thought that the back half of this season was really excellent. Really, really, really excellent. Mostly because of Warren. But also because... Definitely. Also because of Olaf. Exactly.

And Quentin. And Quentin Travers. Oh, man. Oh, I only have two seasons left. Sad. I'm really curious how season six lands with you. I'm really, really curious. Again, I really appreciated it every single time if we watched it.

And then season seven, I haven't rewatched. So we get to do it together. That's exciting. So I do like a dark season. So that won't bother me. Party Noxon is like having watched what she has made post-Buffy, you can really like reverse engineer sort of like what's interesting to her. And so, yeah, I just think for all, you know, Joss Whedon created my favorite show of all time as a deeply problematic dude. without question, that's

understanding it. You know, created this great story about, like, what it means to be a teenage girl and all the sort of stuff like that. But for Marty Knox and a woman to be like, hey, this is what it means to be a young woman. Yeah. And find yourself.

I mean, obviously there are incredible supernatural circumstances of, like, I died. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. But, like, also just the choices we make as young adults and this is, you know, how we feel about them and the accomplishment, but also the, like, the missteps and the shame and all that sort of stuff like that.

And I just think that, like, having a woman running that season, you know, and the villains that are picked for that season, I think is really interesting. Intriguing. Yeah. Okay. I'm excited. All right. That is Buffy, season seven. We'll be back sometime.

We don't know when was season six. Couldn't tell you. And I've got a lot. coming up for sure. I don't know if you heard, but football had started, among other things. Do you have a Super Bowl prediction? The Ravens, I heard it was their year. Was last year the year you went all in on the Lions?

No, I've never. Was that an off-season prediction you made this year? There was some Lions moment for you because of a friend of yours who roots for the Lions. Yeah, probably like an episode where I was like, I'm interested in the Lions, but all-in is a deeply inaccurate word. All right, so Lions Ravens, Detroit, Baltimore, the blue-collar Super Bowl battle that we've been working for for years, honestly. We deserve, honestly. What's your prediction currently? Lions Ravens, genuinely.

Really? Yeah. Really? Yes. I kind of. I do think, and I really, it's hard to repeat, which makes me less inclined to pick Seattle. I do think Seattle's very good. The Rams are unbelievable.

But I've thought for the last three years that Lions Ravens can happen, and it hasn't. And so I'm like, why not? That said, I am the world's biggest Jared Goughdoubter, so. Same. Yeah. That has been Buffy season 5 and some football, bonus football talk. Should we do a football corner every week? How many days do you look in the mirror and go, how did we hire Joanna Robinson at the wringer?

How did this happen? Literally zero days ever. What I do every day is how did we get so lucky that we hired Joanna Robinson here at the ringer. What a fucking thrill and privilege. We are thrilled and privileged by our team here. That's right. Our Scoobies.

Carlos Sherboga. Jacob Pernett. Scott Lee. Arjuna Roongapal. Do me a dinner on. What a squad. Carlos is going vacation for a couple weeks. So.

Deserves it. Really deserves it. Bake time. We'll be back with Lanterns. Yes. Episode five. Can't wait. And I love you.

I love you too. Thank you for watching Buffy. with me. Thanks for bringing this into my life. What a profound joy. Thanks to you all the bad babies who wrote us so, so, so many emails, great emails and left comments and have shared stories about how they're watching for the first time or rewatching because it's their favorite or, you know, what if the case may be, truly, truly exciting to go on the journey with all of you. And we'll be back soon. Bye.