House of R - ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

The trial is upon us, and Jo and Mal are here to see whether Matt Murdock really is as good of a lawyer as he claims to be. They dive deep into the latest episode of ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ and tackle all of Matt's wrongs and rights in this episode, as well as the Fisk marriage drama! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Supervision: John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions applies. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. Greetings. And welcome to House of Our, a ringerverse podcast on the ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

She's here to ask if there's a division of hypocrisy at Rubin and Associates. It's my favorite slippery piece of shit. Oh, wow. Joanna Robinson. Wow. What do you greet me in this new room that we're in? It's a really hawk-heavy intro today, and I think that feels appropriate. I love hawk, as you know.

It's Hawk and is this show Daredevil Born Again? Or is it Hawk and Buck Cashman ride again? Because that's how I feel about Listen, are we here today to talk about the entire third episode of Daredevil Born Again in theory? But are we really here so that you can talk about Buck Cashman's actual Cashman scene? Yeah. I mean, mostly. Mostly. Honestly. I felt like it was a treat just for me.

It was. It was a treat just for you. I, meanwhile, had to settle for zero zingers from Daniel Blake. Zero. He basically said, yeah, okay. How do we feel about each other that, like, you've glommed on to Daniel Blake and I've glommed on to Buck Cashman in a Daredevil show? It's disturbing. Yeah. So it's pretty, it's worrying. It's pretty tough. Are they goons or are they henches by per Matt's definition? That's a good question. That's a good question. Joe, before we delve further into the distinction between a goon and a hench. So quick programming reminders. Let's do it. We got a lot cooking, as always, including me today in this inferno of a studio.

We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. Next up, here on the House of Ar, at the top of next week, double Yellow Jackets. We will be catching up on the fifth and sixth episodes of Yellow Jackets here on the House of R. Then, later next week, we're doing something. Something. I will be out of town traveling.

You've got some special stuff cooking, but we won't say what yet. It's Daredevil. A Jace. Exactly. Exactly. Also, yeah, we've gotten a lot of message from people being like, where's the Yellow Jackets episode? It is coming next week. Yes.

I think they're going to be even more stressed that it's not going to drop on Friday. But we're moving Yellow Jackets to Monday because the Daredevil release schedule. So our Yellow Jackets episodes and we'll now go up on Monday. So we'll do five and six on Monday and then. Yes. And then seven on Tuesday because of my travel. But then on Monday. But then mostly Monday.

How hard is it to remember that? Yeah, it's fine. We're doing fine. What else? We're doing fine. The ringerverse is also, of course, full, robust, overflowing with podcasts, video podcasts, content goodness. Mint addition, listen, Junior Mintz, you got a good one coming.

Not only are Steve and Jomey chatting about this really good invincible season that I'm enjoying quite a bit more than season two. But they're talking about Novocaine. They're not just talking about Novakain. They talk to Jack Quaid. So that is thrilling because Jack Quaid is one of the patron saints of the wider ring reverse universe. Is he? Yeah. Okay.

We love Huey. We've got some notes on Huey. Okay. You're canonically a huge lower decks fan. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's definitely a thing I say out.

Jomey is a huge lower deck fan. You love Jack Wade's work in the Hunger Games. You're a big fan of him and that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly right. I do enjoy his social media persona and presence.

Oh, he's delightful. Wonderful stuff. Spoiler warning? No, how can the people follow along? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's not going on. Tell us. Including we did the last of us trailer breakdown.

Catch up if you haven't. Absolutely. My mom caught up today. She was texting me about it. The Midnight Boys, PooPoo! Are of course covering Daredevil week to week. Always. Having robust debates about it.

So, listen. Why don't you just subscribe to our pod, to the ringerverse. I mean, couldn't be easier. I agree. on your on your pod catcher of choice yeah um follow us on social your social media platform of choice whatever that might be entirely up to you whatever that might yeah correct um and then of course as we'll have done this week you can email us hoppets and dragons at gmail.com we got a lot of daredevil emails uh this week the the legal community has decided to weigh in on the bona fides of one mr

matthew murdock esquire yeah so um That is all I have to say about that. Spoiler warning. Fantastic stuff. Here's the spoiler warning. It's the friendly neighborhood one. Everything that happened in this third episode of Daredevil Born Again, everything that's happened in Daredevil Born Again to date, anything that's ever happened in the MCU, anything that happened in the Netflix Daredevil series or wider Netflix, Marvelverse, and also Comics canon. All of Comic History. Anything that has ever happened in a single comic book could come up today. Perhaps legal precedent will come up today. We're going to talk about some art. Wadir?

Yeah. Perhaps. Yeah, exactly. Just so. Just so. That's it. Those are the programming reminders, the spoiler warning. And now we are ready for our opening. Snapshot. Okay, Joe, we are here to talk about the hollow of his hand, the third episode of this season, once again, directed by Michael Questa, who also directed episode two, written by Jill Blankenship. This checked in at 47 minutes, so about 40 minutes of actual television when you remove the previously on and the end, credit. give us your quick opening snapshot amuse-bush thoughts on this episode of television. Did you vibe with the trial-heavy courtroom drama aspect of this episode? Is the fact that you got one scene with Buck Cashman enough to sell you? Did it just leave you wanting more? How are you feeling about episode three? The Buck stops nowhere. Do you know what I mean? As far as I'm concerned, never enough Buck Cashman. I literally, literally with my own mouth on our top 13 moments of Daredevil said,

I would like this to be a legal procedural. And I'm not sure past Joanna knew what was right. Interesting. The thing is not like this, is what I would say. Is this better in that it's like devoid of some of the like really goofy CGI and stuff like that from the first episode? Yes. But I'm struggling to understand who this Matt Murdoch is personally, and we'll talk about that. And perhaps that is incredibly intentional.

Yeah. And I am willing to... Sort of has to be if... For the season to work. Really has to be, right? So I'm struggling to understand this Matt Murdoch. And I'm not really yet connecting with Kirsten and Cherry and some of the other auxiliary characters.

I think that as far as like... a few episodes, performances. I really do love Camar de Lis Reyes as Hector. I think he is... Beautiful performance. Wonderful in this episode. So there's a lot of... I have a lot of questions.

I have a lot of legal precedent questions. Same. I have a lot of questions, comments, and concerns. But, yeah, the... Hector, while he was with us, is an incredible part of the team. Can I offer a quick correction before we get to your big picture things? As you know, I'm almost 100% correct about everything all the time, right? Yeah.

Yes. Anyway. Yeah. Last week I got so excited to talk about Red Hook, New York, that I do know, which is upstate. And I talked about this great comic book shop there, stuff like that. I got so excited about that. That I just completely neglected to process the fact that it would make no sense for them to be talking about the Red Hook in Upstate New York. Rather, there is a section of Brooklyn that is also called Red Hook, which is clearly what they're talking about. I got many messages about this, including from the owner of that comic book shop who was like, thanks so much for the plug. Also, you're wrong.

Well, guess what? You still told a lot of people about that comic book shop. And now they know. Now they know we're red hook when they make their way to that Red Hook. Mallory, what are your big picture takes on this episode, episode three? Let me just say, I would not rule out Buck Cashman trying to make his way upstate. at some point. Why not? He's got his fingers and everything. You couldn't keep Matt Murdoch in Hell's Kitchen and you can't keep Buck Cashman

in any of the Five Burroughs. He'll work for anyone. I mean, it's entirely possible. It doesn't work for the mayor. He works for the man. For the man. I had a lot of fun with this episode. I was so compelled by Hector emotionally and found the performance so beautiful

that... It gave me a little bit less anxiety maybe about how the season overall will feel in terms of the, like, what did they cut? What did they move? What did they chop out or chop back together? Because I was able to invest in this character and care about him in a relatively short span of time. And that was something I was very worried about. Like, are we just going to be moving in and out not only of different the story of the weak characters, different villains, different potential heroes, different foils, but also different visions for the show, how, like, Are we ever going to be able to fully immerse ourselves in any sort of level of investment?

So just the fact that I came to care so quickly about Hector was a real win for me as someone who was like really looking forward to the show, then a little nervous, then easing in. And it was like, okay. Of course, now I am mourning his loss. And that is deeply sad. And the end of the episode was painful. Very painful. And as far as we know that this episode is like pretty much intact from the original stuff that they shot. Right.

So yeah, I also wasn't, like, distracted by anything because we weren't, like, trying to shoehorn things in that weren't originally part of the episode. Yeah. So then that, to that point, the fact that this is very clearly a relic of a different moment in the creative arc of the show makes me less sure of what it represents about where we're going. So I still feel like a little maybe unsettled in just what the rhythm and flow of the show will ultimately be. I had such a visceral response to the decisions Matt made in the way that he behaved in this episode but I will say that's not the first time I felt that way about Matt

I think the things he did in this episode were like the most appalled I've ever been by his lapses. I've had moments before I'm like, would Matt leave foggy and Karen hanging during the Frank Castle trial like this? I don't think so. This was like a level of base hypocrisy and almost cruelty.

that I had, I'm like, if it's a deliberate choice to show us that he is absolutely at sea, without foggy, without Karen, and he will actively confront that at some point, then I'm interested in that and compelled. And I think it's a potentially really interesting, creative choice for the show that makes me mad at and upset with and disappointed in a character I love. We'll see. Like, we'll see if that's something that Matt grapples with more actively overshadow. But yeah, overall, I had fun with the episode. The thing I'm worried about on that front, and again, we'll talk about Matt Murdoch lawyer in a bit, but like, I don't know that the show, the show is not giving me an indication

that that's the story it's telling me. Matt Murdoch, uh, 2.0, yes. But I don't feel like, in the sequence that you're referring to from the original season two of the original Daredevil, that's Matt Murdoch in the throws of his like Electra re-obsession spiral out sort of thing. And that's a story that we can understand. We were like, he's spinning out, but this, that's the other. And so the fact that he ditches fogging Karen for Frank's trial, we're like, that's horrible, but I understand the story that I'm watching. Yeah. Listening to The Midnight Boys talk about this episode, they were like, Matt Murdoch, great lawyer. Matt Murdoch won the case. Matt Murdoch's doing raid. I know. And so

I was just sort of like, but I think it's some people's, read on the show. They're just sort of like, he really did it in this episode. And I, and I think that's, if that's a read, I think that's a slight failure of the show. You know what I mean? I will say for me, that was not my read for even a moment. And I felt quite the opposite that like the reason that they, because Matt could be defending anyone. Mac could be making reckless, irresponsible, almost soulless decisions about how to defend a client who had done a anything. The reason to make that client a person who puts a mask on every night and goes and defense the city is to show us that Matt has lost touch with the core thing that used to drive

his life and is actually making decisions to justify that distance to himself, right? When he's like, you don't have to, the mask doesn't define you and you don't have to put the mask on, he has basically allowed Hector's life to be forfeit. And his right to make decisions about his life to be forfeit so that Matt can tell himself, it's okay to put the mask away. So I think that is on their show's mind. That is certainly an interpretation. Yeah. Another interpretation I've seen is that it's Matt sort of defending himself when he puts, when he puts Hector and the idea of White Tiger on the stand and then parades a bunch of people to talk about how important, how great he is. Yeah. It is Matt sort of telling himself what I did

mattered and even though I don't have access to that anymore. Right. Which I think is a little different than what you were just saying. But all of it, I think, is the same thing, which is like Matt's relationship to who he was and who he now is. Feels like it is on the show's mind or at least. Absolutely. But I feel like, and maybe I'm misinterpreting it and we will see as the episodes roll on. But like the moments where even we hear like a Kirsten being like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah.

Or our guy, Hawk, saying what the fuck are you doing or whatever. On the one hand, that could just, that could be an indifference. indication of here's a hero spinning out. Yeah. Right. On the other hand, it could be something like Wonder Woman where it's like, Diana, no, Diana, no. And it's like the point is Diana, yes. Like, she should be doing the thing that people are telling her not to do.

Right. So I actually, like, I hear your interpretation and like, it's the one that I hope is true. Yeah. I think the fact that, yeah, for sure, we'll see. I mean, I think the fact that Cherry is like shaking his head like, what the fuck, Kirsten, in front of everybody is like, Matt, don't do this. And then Hector, they sit down together and Hector says, like, that was not your secret to tell. I think Matt is, he does not leave that interaction feeling ashamed.

He doubles down and tries to vindicate himself to himself and also to Hector. But everybody around Matt, who in theory would, I mean, I think the fact that Matt is lacking somebody, the Father Lantam, the sister Maggie, the Foggy and the Karen, of course, like somebody to actually. have, again, that active interrogation with of his own impulses. Like, that was always the thing is when Matt felt himself being pulled down, you know, into the devil's lair before that he would talk about it with someone. I think the fact that that's not happening leaves open, not only the pathway to continuing dissent, right, which is worrying, of course. But the question of whether Matt knows this thing is wrong.

But every person around him told him it was wrong. So I think to me that makes me feel the show is saying it's wrong. And the question is when will Matt accept that? Or he has a brief moment of returning with Heather to like, the system worked, right? Let's pour the bourbon. And then he's going to find out in the next episode. How much guilt is he going to carry? Yeah.

That Hector was killed. And it's like, what good is the system? I hope you're right. I just am not as convinced as you are that the episode was clear on that messaging. Yeah. Okay. Should we dive into it? We're going to go.

So in kind of two clusters today, we're going to go chronologically inside of each of them, but we're going to separate the Wilson-Vinessa Buck Cashman scenes into our first chunk here. And then we'll go through the Matt Hector trial of the White Tiger scenes. So let's start first with scenes from a king and queen pin marriage. We have a lot of chaos in Chekhov's Red Hook to talk about. Just a very, I love snark, a lot of lip from the truckjackers. It was fun. It's very sassy. Enjoyed it. Yeah. I hope that guy comes back.

Yeah. He had a lot of fun, brutally murdering people. And so this, you know... And actually, I really loved that moment, rewatching it a couple times. It felt very... We got some emails in defense of Dirtel, and I will maybe probably address them a little later. But, like, it looked very comic-booky to me. Like, the shot of the driver who had complied and hadn't spoken out and had done everything he was supposed to do and then knows he's going to get killed anyway.

And he's sort of like, well, you know, like that was such like I could just see that sort of in a comic panel. And then, yeah, I love Olivia Irishman, big fan. Who doesn't? Who doesn't? You know, we'll hear from Sheila later. It's not great for, it's not great for their future plans for Red Hook, you know. She's got some concern. Property rates. How are they going to sell this as a dock locale to be coveted? Well, not like this. That's for sure. Speaking of things to be coveted, I'm still missing the traditional. omelet. We are back at breakfast. Egg White City. My goodness. Some orange juice and some lovely like China for the caffeinated beverages. Beautiful spread. Wilson and Vanessa are as far away from each other at this table as they could be. And it's not just that they are both literally at the head of a table, at the end of a table, two heads, right? Two people who are like, I'm at the head of the table. Yeah, yeah. But the way it was filmed so that they're both kind of in the margin of the screen. We talked last week about the way that they were sitting as far as possible from each other on the couch at counseling.

So to be right back there where the physical distance and the emotional distance are really heightening each other was, boy, we felt that keenly in this episode. A cop I've seen around the old interwebs is there are some pairing scenes

in Citizen Kane where you see a newly married couple sitting close and intimate to each other and then later at opposite ends of a table that looks staged very similarly to this table. Though this is like a, A scenario we've seen. Right.

A distant chili aristocracy sort of classic setup. But I think that when we, having, you know, fresh off of our rewatch, when we think, when we talked about this last week, we think about not only the omelet he made himself, but the omelet he then, it's so beautiful that then there's an omelet for him and Vanessa. And Vanessa comes behind him and holds him close and then sits down right at his elbow and they're just like there together. Bringing her into that rich. Not just literally here is sustenance, but like you are a part of the rhythm of my life. Yeah.

And then to watch them just sort of like with yards and yards between them, it's just. It's sad. It's tough. Mallory. A couple other things. This starts with an upside down shot of Wilson Fiske. Once again, at least the second one we've gotten. No, third.

Yeah. Right. Because we had the initial table reflection, the diner. Yeah, yeah. The diner. But then there's also when he's in the Red Hook, room that he's like shot down with the overhead light sort of table reflection. So I think like four.

Let's start counting upside down. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's get a tally going. Along with the flag pin, and this has been true, he's got a little red apple pin because he loves New York. Mayor of the Big Apple. Yeah. How do you feel about Wilson Fisk being on Team Red Apple?

Great. I've got Draco Malfoy. You have Wilson Fisk. Yeah. I feel great about it. Okay. I feel good about it. Yeah?

You love Kingpin. You agree with his politics. You agree with his approach to everything. You love a bear with a bloody knuckle. I'm like that guy fixed that hole in the middle of the road. Yeah. In no time. Cut through that red tape.

In no time. If you cut through red tape, you get to enjoy a red apple. Okay. And this is just a thing that I know to be true. I had a delicious pink lady apple tart last night. And then it led to me talking about and showing my tattoo. And that was just a wonderful, wonderful little moment. So what a week for the red apple hive?

Well, congratulations to you. Thanks. Thank you. And King Pin for joining Team Red Apple. Thanks. I wonder what his favorite type of Red Apple is. He likes something very rare. Yeah. Yeah.

Though now he's all, you know, I'm the man of the people. He's not eating a Red Delicious. Don't even put it in your mind. It's not happening. Daniel Blake might eat a Red Delicious, but we'll be this. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Oh, man.

What an episode for New York. Tough shot coming at the Knicks. Very tough moment for the Nicks in this episode. The old Knickerbockers. That's exactly right. Joanna, from that beautiful omelet sharing. What did we call it sharing? Way back when, back in the day, to reminiscing.

To another thing that Vanessa and Wilson used to share, which was a love of art, right? This was one of the, it was the kind of like meat cute. at the gallery, grab it in a snowstorm, this bridge to finding each other, to forging this connection with each other. Wilson reaching out to Vanessa through art and allowing her into his life, the wall and the childhood wall

and that association with his father and the murder and the hammer and all of it, this like ability through art to commune with each other and to figure out how to say something and convey something that couldn't be, said, right? Art is the origin of their love story and their bond. So this was a fascinating way we talked last week about like, oh, okay, all the bunch of art pieces around her. You know,

now she's like, washing money. Going full Marty Bird. Yeah. Wow. Full Marty Bird with great works of art. Uh-huh. My goodness. And so this was an interesting scene and interesting choice in a way to kind of simultaneously take us back, port us and them, back to a moment where this was this source of connection for them and then show us how far apart they are currently. I mean, thinking about not just everything you beautifully iterated, but thinking about that season three of Daredevil, when Wilson goes to get Robin Snowstorm from Incredible guest star, Leslie Ann Warren, and at the end of that exchange, she's like, Vanessa would want you to have it.

Yeah. And Dex said tough shit, and you said, I can fix him. And I can. And he's like this blood spatter enhances it. It's fine. Actually, it's just as much until it's a spatter later. That's his understanding of who, I mean, like, Vanessa, he loves because she wanted to, like, embrace all of him. That was all part of it.

But he also had this other understanding of her as someone with, like, you know, a sense of art and story and all this sort of stuff like that. So it's crushing for us to think about Vanessa as someone who's like, this is just something I can launder money through. That's crushing. Totally. It's crushing to think about, I mean, because as much as I don't want Kingpin on my Apple team personally, I am always rooting for these crazy kids. Same. I just want them to be happy. So, yeah.

And it's just like, I talked about this last week. like the fact that it was Sheila, right, who was like, this is hurting you with more traditional voters. Yes. Yeah. And so the fact that he's like, forget your career, honey. Forget everything that you've built. Forget all you've done in my absence to hold everything together. Yeah. I've decided for this esoteric plan that I'm not sharing the details of with you. I've got a bigger goal in mind. Right. And actually like there's a couple different interpretations of this here. Is the Wilson Fisker seeing here someone who genuinely is trying to leave his life of crime for something, or is he like, I actually would like crime to run rampant in the city so that I can swoop in and be like the savior of the city. And we know no matter what the knuckles are bloody. So no matter what, there is on some very base level, a way in which he's not leaving this. The base level of Adam's skull.

Yeah. Probably. The basement level of some structure where he's keeping Adam. Who knows. But like, when will we see that oozing, soon to be quite? What episode will we discover Adam chained and beaten? Upside down shot watch and Adam watch and suit watch all together. But like that's so, I mean, why wouldn't he bring her in? Why wouldn't he tell her like the full scope of his plans? Yeah. I don't understand it.

And nor does she. Yeah. I think like later, in the later scene before Heather really kept the mayor waiting. You know, Heather's not in the room, kept the mayor waiting. But a classic Irish last. Genuinely wild stuff. But did give Wilson and Vanessa an opportunity to talk about some things. And yeah, like that the don't like don't make me stop trusting you.

Don't give me a reason to stop trusting you. The way that he, that's like a classic. I'm going to put this on you. not make it about me and my insecurities, but this idea of trust, like he clearly doesn't trust her and doesn't feel that he can, you know, in season three,

when she just, like, when he brought her in and she implored him to, right? And the way, when she's looking at the surveillance layer, we're like bracing, is she gonna have a second thought, a doubt?

No, she's like, this is, exactly. Not only am I ready for this, I'm ready to escalate it. And so the fact that he's not only, like, because when he says, you know, I'm reaching for, I know it hurts to just sit by, but I'm reaching for higher goals. And she says such as, and he doesn't, you know, as you're noting, reply, it's not just the withholding there. It's that coupled with the fact that she's like, as we heard her say last, last week in the double premiere, you left. I sat by your side. And then we have all of our history with him that she didn't have to recount, which was you didn't know if I would accept you. And then I did. Right? I was the one person. Then you left chasing Echo. Yeah. Like, wild stuff still. Just to stop frankly astonishing stuff in the history of the shirt and I don't know why.

What if it's all about that? It probably is. Vanessa is like very fashionable. So stylish. And she like, he let her pick out like his clothing in the original Daredevil series. You know who never wore a Hawaiian shirt? Adam. I feel. I feel sure that Adam. To go back to what you said about the conversation they had in the Heather's office last time. Yeah. Or, no, a different conversation where he's like, you know, putting it on her. Yes. Is that not exactly what Matt did with the cops at the end of episode two when he's like, you don't want to do this? Totally.

Don't make me do this. Totally. Yeah. Matt and Wilson continuing to make the same mistakes not only as they have in the past, but as each other, delicious stuff. Are you a, are you a Francis Bacon head? The, the, the, the, the, the, so the, the, the, the, the, so the, the, the, the Freud triptych here, Lucian, Sigm's grandson. Yeah. Um, it is, um, it is, um, it is, the yellow one you remember, I remember was like, I think it's interesting, a triptic is interesting to me. Three studies of Lucian Freud. Yeah, a triptic is interesting to me if it's like, if, if, if, if, if we were watching a tripled show, and perhaps we are because Frank Castle isn't here yet.

So if we want to think about, we think about Daredevil and Kingpin is foils, but if it's Daredevil, Frank Castle, and Kingpin is like triangle foils, then that's interesting to me. Yeah, I love that. It made me think just hearing the word triptych of Moon Knight and the triple mirror, you know, and all the different aspects of Stephen's self. So triptics are also like, you know, oftentimes when you see a triptych in a museum, you're in the Jesus section of the museum. The like Renaissance or heavily Catholic section of the museum. Yeah. I mean, we're still waiting to ramp up the. Let's go back to church. Catholicism.

Please. Honestly, when we got the hollow of his hand line at the end from Heather, I was like, thank you. Thank you. You more. You and I are always walking around and we're like, why is this conversation more Jesus? I know. It's like, why is this my response? I guess because it's a dare devil show and that is what I am accustomed to want to need. On the Vanessa front, we did get an email from our listener McKinley. And I think, I feel like we alluded to this last week, but just in case we didn't. Yeah. What do you think of the theory that?

They said we wouldn't hear the cause in here. So I didn't want you to. I didn't want you to feel like you were missing. So horrible. It's a moment of terror when we hear the call every time and forget it's gone. I implore you to never do that again. Yeah, today we can't hear anyone in studio. So it's just, they've just locked us in here. And perhaps these cameras aren't even running. We don't know.

It's honestly entirely possible. Perhaps these mics are off and they're just like, let's just let Joanna and Valerie lose their mind slowly in a room. McKinley. Goal! Wrote. I'm very curious about who hired Bullseye. I'm wondering if it was Vanessa.

She was the one to comment on how dangerous Dex was and letting him off the leash to achieve their end. This is in the previous iteration. Is it possible she did the same thing to take Matt off the board assuming he would go too far? If you notice Dex had plenty of time to kill Foggy instantly with a headshot, Karen too. But he shot him in a place for him to die slowly, leaving Karen unscathed so she and Matt could be tortured with Foggy's slow death. Is the target Matt? Is a target Karen is a target Foggy who hired. Decks. I feel like it had to have been Vanessa. Vanessa. Given that she's like employing Buck Cashman inside of this episode to do her errands. Like I like this because of the, uh, the promise. Talk about some promises that are made in this episode. But the promise that this makes to us of, you know, a number of different things inside of the Wilson Vanessa relationship are going to come to a head. And this like, it's not again just that Wilson is saying, stop doing this. This.

thing that you built up while I was gone, that you perfected while I was gone, that you managed to calibrate and control while I was gone, that you came to love, including Luca, that fucking whiny baby from tracksuit mafia? She had them all on lockdown and he's like, no. Put it all on hold. My career. For me. My career.

For me, not only that, the strong difference in opinion of how to continue to continue to operate us from a marriage. Crime lords. But the fact that like, what really struck me about Vanessa sending Bach, because I am kind of like, who does Buck actually work for? Who is he loyal to, but who is he more loyal potentially to, is Vanessa the man? Vanessa is the one in charge of the crime operation. It's like to me that he was talking about Vanessa when he said the man.

And that is so hot. Well, this is, I mean, one of the many reasons that. Buck Cashman. No, no, it's 10 out of 10. No, no, it's on Buck Cashman. The man of quality. A man of moral fiber and integrity. He's a Swifty, I can tell.

Did we see any bracelets? No, I just think he loves the song The Man. The idea that she not only is resistant to heeding this directive, as she should be. You fucking built your career? Own it, girl. Yeah. But that she's made up Vanessa, this classic girl boss. Gay keep, gaslight, do it.

I love it. The fact that she's like maybe also not just controlling the five families, but controlling Fisks soldiers, Fisks lieutenants, simultaneously like withering his stature because they have chosen to follow and listen to her instead of him, but also relying on the specter of that stature to still hold sway and influence, which is the thing he's saying he doesn't want. Like, I want distance. I want to be kept away from it. boy, that's a combustible combination, if that's what is happening. But I'm still rooting for these crazy kids.

Put some yolks back in the omelet. It's going to be fine. I'm still rooting for them. Oh, my God. One little quick note on that Sheila interrupt a interruption to talk about, this is not what we wanted for Red Hook that we already mentioned, it's just that Fisk says, let's inspire, inspire, chief gallo to help out. to jump ahead a little bit with

Hector's death at the end, you know, the cop in the courtroom who, you know, I know Matt has super hearing, but I thought frankly very loudly whispered the Torres cannot be allowed to testify. I'm like, guys, go on.

If you texted it on your phone to the person sitting next to you. Yeah, you want the notes at four. Exactly. If not this. Are you allowed to have phones? I have no idea. This will not be...

In the court? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If not, borrow like the, the stencil and parchment. Yeah. Knock out the carom artist.

Take her pastels. Exactly. So obviously we see the Punisher tattoo again there. And then, of course, at the end, Hector is killed by somebody who has once again co-opted the Punisher's symbol, wearing it on the chest in full Frank Castle fashion. Do you feel like, I mean, we a thousand percent believe that that is the cop, you know, blah, blah, yes.

Do you think there's anyone watching at home who thinks? That's Frank. Probably. I think that there's a chance that they're like, okay, some people will think it's Frank and so we get the fake out. And then the other portion of the audience who knows it's not or strongly, strongly suspects and believes it's not, who is then waiting to see when will Matt find Frank? When will Frank go to reclaim his symbol? If that faction of the NYPD is not, is not. that going to become basically Fiske's personal army? Like, is he going to say, you're going to help me take down? I mean, Chief Gallo. I feel like he called the hit on Hector at the end of the episode. The stitching together of his declaration. Yeah, his declaration of intent with that moment. Yeah. So I feel like he already has some filthy cops underage purview. And it's really interesting to me if this is like, I mean, we knew this was. coming with like the cops and their Punisher logo, how that reflects real life and how we anticipate Frank Castle will respond to that.

But if the whole tenor of the show is like this ACAB thing, I think that's, but it probably won't be. It'll be like hashtag not all cops or something like that. But I think that's really interesting. Before we leave the dining room, can I just say, please. Fisk gives a little like, they're all rats monologue. And I cannot watch a they're all rats monologue without thinking of. Frank Costello from the depotting, Jack Nicholson. Of course, talking about, I've got a rat.

And I'm not going to do a little rat face because I'm not as brave as a performer as Jack Nicholson. But I was thinking, I love to think about the depotted. Me too. They resisted the urge to show us an actual rat scurrying across. I mean, this season's not over yet. It's true. There's still time. We're only a third of the way through it.

That happens at the end of the episodes. I thought that was a very like thronesian moment as well when when Kingpin was like, well, they're all rats, you know, the bottom of the barrel, they'll kill each other. Yeah. And Vanessa was like, well, when they, whoever wins, whoever's left at the end, they're going to come for us. And that made me think of a lot of different moments of throats. But like, when they all go north and like someone wins, they come for us. You know, she's always on our minds. You love going on here. You love a girl boss like Circe. I do.

I do. I do. Yeah, I think with that on the end thing, either, either, Fiske already ordered it, which seems entirely possible, or if he didn't, it's at least then giving us that, here is the unity and alignment that he is not actually finding other places, except, of course, with always ready to help. But Cashman, the Cashman, take me through it. Anything else on this scene? Um, simply superb. Just great, great stuff. This was actually a pretty funny scene. It was great. It was like. Oh, man. I like the way he said very noisy mistake as like a finger wagon.

He's got, he's got that thing, you know what I mean? Lucas here, Victor's here. This is where we get the, I don't work for the mayor, work for the man moment. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, it's nothing more to say. We've already touched on this. I just think, I think he's great. How worried are you if he is, in fact, loyal to Vanessa,

instead of Wilson, that Wilson will have him killed. I'll cry if that happens. Yeah. Yeah. You'll mourn. I'll shed tears, actual tears for Buck Cashman. Will his head be smashed in a car door? Will we go old school?

Or like a pop, like a watermelon. Yeah. All the little cuts to the bloody king pinnuckles to remind us of what a hypocrite he is. Great stuff. The counseling scene. They're waiting for head. as we already talked about. We had a lot of this. I thought the, what you're trying to do, it's not going to work line from Wilson and Vanessa replying. Counseling. Was about a savage

scenes from marriage. As of a scenes from a marriage moment as possible. And I just like, listen, despite the red apple observation that you already made and the kinship that that establishes between, yeah, my guy King Finn and did you already order your fiscal fiscal fix it? I already had one. I didn't need to order it. I do not support Wilson Fisks policies. I would not vote for Wilson Fisk. Seems like you would. I was so, I mean, I just look at with Vanessa every beat of this. And when she said, this just feels like penance, you know, it's clearly, she's clearly right. Like he's up on the rooftop after he won the election saying, I'm already over it. So you fucked another guy after I got shot in the head?

No problem. It's fine. Don't look at my knuckles. It's fine. I'm a deeply forgiving person. It's fine. I'm not especially unhinged when it comes to you. Yeah.

Yeah, I always behave in a measured rational fashion. It's fine. He's so clearly feeling betrayed by the one person in his life who was like a constant and gave him mooring every decision that he made to get back to get her back. It's like he left her. And that's what makes this great is that they both have like a reason to be enraged with each other and to feel so betrayed by each other. I got real like Baylon's skull, Asoka energy from him with the like, I'm obsessed. with you invoking Bill in school, a character we loved that I, when shall we ever see him again? What a wonderful character. Truly wonderful character. This sometimes peace needs to be broken and chaos must rain just for a moment to build a strong order.

In addition to the, you know, tear it down so you can build it again aspect of that. I have to assume that the rain word choice is deliberate. We've talked a lot already both in our preview pod, what we were expecting, given the mayor Fiske of it all. And then last episode, that the devil's reign comic run feels like it's going to be a real touchpoint for what Fisk is doing here, seeking to thwart all vigilante activity to be the arbiter of justice in the city, et cetera. So that word choice fist felt like yet another bit of reinforcement. You didn't feel like it was a nod to Antichrist, the chaos reigns meme? Do you think King Finn loves a meme? Like loves a fresh meme? Here's what I think. Or do you think Daniel Blake?

I was going to say, I think if he doesn't, that will change by the end of the season because Daniel Blake, we got spread, we got reach. We got engagement. Your guy, Daniel Blake. You think Daniel Blake's going to get kingpin on blue sky? Oh, I think true social. Oh, my God. Trump's TikTok. It's so grim.

It's so grim. Anything else you want to say about the pledge that Fisk makes in the BB interview, the rage that he feels watching the miscarriage of justice, as he calls it, in the truck. You know, hypocrisy, hypocrisy. But, like, I think that, you know, Sheila's like, hey, we've got legit members of the press. He's like, no. This one, who is uncle I murdered. You know, like, but like this idea of manipulative.

or trying to use. My hope is that BB is going to, like, use him right back or, you know, whatever it is. But, like, right now I'm just like, don't be a mouthpiece for this. Absolute piece of shit. Please. Yeah. And also, why are you spending any time with Daniel Blake? I know why for access, but why also.

She loves a zinger. Does she? I still feel so bad for this fucker in the last episode. He's like, so when you gave me your number. It was just for my boss. Yeah, Daniel. You know who you would never see something like that? Buck Cashman.

Oh, Buck Cashman is swimming in it. With galore. Swimming in it. Now, we did not get the Heather Matt sex scene in this episode that I was anticipating still to come. The only steam was coming off the, like, vegetables on the stove. I loved watching Matt Cook. I loved watching him chop those vegetables. rules previously and I loved watching him cook.

Did you love watching him fake, not know what he was doing in the kitchen? Yeah, I actually did because I always really enjoy. I do always get a kick out of that. Will we get a Buck Cashman sex scene at some point this season? What do you think? Dare to dream. With Vanessa? God!

She's the man, so, you know. Is he really Adam? Is there no Adam? There's no book club and there's no Adam. There's no, what was the other thing? Oh, we can't say it. I almost just said it too. I was like, that's a pod we banged.

That's a future pod. Okay. You know, I thought, obviously, this is just, again, in a deeply dismaying way. So, so mapped on to real life right now that it's almost unbearable to watch and talk about. But this idea that, like, it's not just Kingpin saying, oh, this was a miscarriage of justice. And I would know, look how I was persecuted and wrongly, and wrongly jailed and wrongly. rest more than once. And this idea that this character, at this moment in time, has gone from fearing the law and needing to evade the law.

And being a guy who used to hide in the shadows to the point where we talked to the Sonor and Primer Pot in season one, no one would even say his name. And the moment where he went out into the light was like this big, crucial aspect of his arc in season one. And now he's like, to hide, to hide is a mockery and a scandal. It's like, well, you used to be the guy who, what is hiding in the shadows any different than putting on a mask? It's just another version of the same thing. And now he's gone from fearing the law and needing to evade it to wielding it, to weaponizing it, to seeking to control it for these ends that he won't tell Vanessa about. This idea that he and Matt are both trying to channel their vigilante criminal behavior through proper channels, government, police. the courtroom sort of like and where is this going to lead us I don't think to like a everyone will be fine

a stately court case I think it's people putting on brightly colored costumes and punching each other how did you enjoy seeing Matt finger the devil horn this episode I did write it in my notes stroke the devil horn I did write fingering the devil horn but as we got we got several emails from people. Oh, actually, I want to say it's fair. To the fingering the devil horn. Yeah. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound

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Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5.5. 5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take up allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in. your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonelioria or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait

as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Bad, baby. Let's talk about Maddie Murdoch. Let's talk about the trial of the White Tiger. This opening of the episode, it's not the opening of this podcast, but the opening of the episode of television was in, after Sell. It makesquisites me.

This was so beautiful. It, like, moved me so deeply. Yeah. love this, Hector telling Matt about his home, about the beaches, about the Koki, the tree frog, who sings his name, the way he whistled when he was describing this, the way that he talked about how tourists find this sound annoying, but to him it's magic, this idea of meaning for life, the way that they all call out to each other the music of the island. First of all, this is just like beautiful, right? Beautifully written, beautifully performed. Let's go to Puerto Rico.

Sounds amazing. I would love to. He didn't just say to him it's beautiful. He's like, to us. Yes. It's beautiful. Exactly, this idea of like any, it's the micro and the macro. Like he has, obviously when he's talking about meaning for life, he's, we met his wife last week. She says, that's not the man I married. And he is longing here for this return to family, this return to the acceptance and embrace of this person he loves. Yeah. But more broadly, even though Hector, when we meet him is in New York, not Puerto Rico, learning what home means to him, learning what the place that is rooted in.

inside of him and shaped him means to him, felt like another, another important moment of, like, drawing a comparison, a point of comparison between Matt and Hector, how Hell's Kitchen, the kitchen, shaped Matt, informed Matt, led him to feel like he needed to, often at the expense of his well-being, his health, his relationships, defended at all costs. And he hears Hector describing this thing that he is lost a little bit. He's like, I promise you'll go home and it's fine. You can't do. You can't do the Thrones promise.

Promise me, Ned. You can't do it. It never works out. I had the exact same reaction to this, which is like thinking about Matt Murdoch as, it's funny because I was actually talking to preview for next week. I was talking to Sean Fennessee about like his relationship to Daredevil and like what he thinks of the character. And he was talking about Daredevil as like a particularly unique superhero in terms of his relationship to where he lives, which we talked about in our 13 moments pod,

and we talked about Hell's Kitchen as like a character in the show. And I was thinking about that. I was like, is that true, you know, Spider-Man's and Queens, like, you know, we've got different, you know, Batman and Gotham, like, Superman and Metropolis. Like, do we have other characters who are more, like, can claim closer association? Yeah. You know, Wonder Woman and Themiscura, like, whatever, you know. Yeah.

I don't know. And maybe it's just based on like what I've been shown in the last like 20 years of content. But I don't think any other depiction of Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Boulevard, has given me what I feel like I understand is the relationship between Matt Murdoch and Hell's Kitchen. I agree. It's like Eddie Venom level symbiote relationship. Yeah. It's like they are one. There's your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

but then there's like the devil of hell's kitchen. Like it's just so and and this is part of what this season, again, what we're hoping this season is shaping is like a mat unmoored. And a mat out of devil's kitchen is not where he should be, which is where we find him in this season. Right. Not in the kitchen at all. And so, you know, Hector unmoored, I think is also really interesting.

We got a beautiful email from our listener, Carlos, who was talking about, Um, yeah. It's talking about, uh, the, the,

the tree frogs, right? Yeah. And Carlos wrote, yeah. He was like that monologue and then the heartbreaking sound of the cokey over the closing up, uh,

the episode's closing credits. Yeah. And Carlos wrote, when I visit the island, I wait for dusk. When the cokeys begin chirping, I call my mother without even saying hello. I hold my phone up to the trees and let her hear their chorus.

My mother spent the first, I'm going to cry. Me too. From the first years of her life in the hills of Puerto Rico. That tiny frog is a slice of home. Hearing the late Camar de los Rés, Hector, speak so tenderly about the cookie, delivered the representation I've been waiting for from the MCU for too long.

What a beautiful email. Absolutely beautiful from Carlos, who's a long-time listener and the best. Oh, my God. That is lovely. But yeah, I mean, this was an incredible moment. I know. I agree.

And I just like, an incredible moment. moment from an incredible character. And like, I can't get mad at comic book shows or any show for like, we've gone through Thrones. We can't get mad at people for like killing. But like, like, I would love much more time with him. You know? And now, you know, we know that the actors passed away like we're not going to get more time

with his performer either. It's, it's doubly. It's extremely tragic. I love this email so much. Obviously about specifically the meaning of the Koki. And in general, I love thinking about that. a shared language and shorthand of like the sound of a place, the smell of a place, the way the light is in your home.

Especially in a show like Daredevil where it's like we're meant to be paying attention to what our other senses can pick up. What's the sound of this? What's the smell of this? On the Promise Me Ned front. Promise me Ned. One of many emails we got from lawyers this week. I mean, this one comes from Ryan. Cool.

Matt's got a lot of work to do to rebuild his reputation in the legal community. The number of times I wrote in my notes, I am not a lawyer, but. This seems wrong. Ryan wrote, when Matt visits Hector in jail and promises that he will get him off, no lawyer worth their salt ever. Ever promises or guarantees an outcome of any case, big or small, especially in criminal cases, and especially with jury verdicts, even bad lawyers understand that concept.

So that's strike one against Matt Murdoch lawyer. It's not going to be the last one. Boy, Maddie, what did you do? Matthew. Matthew, Matthew, Matthew. Oh, Joe, anything on the White Tiger comics canon front that you want to know, because of course, that's one of the things about us having to say goodbye to the character so quickly is that we did not get much time with this version of white, white tiger. But, and this is, we don't know if this will be the case in the show universe. But in comics canon, and we issued a spoiler warning for that, the mantle is passed on.

The amulet is passed on, and both Hector's niece and his sister eventually become White Tiger. These are obviously characters who are established in the show. In the show. So we are not necessarily done with, even though Hector was killed in this episode, White Tiger as a vigilante presence, as a hero in this community, the amulet, could still remain a part of the show. The amulet's the power. the three tiger amulets in comics canon. And this character was introduced in 1975, and Marvel's first Latin superhero.

This is a big deal, big deal. Like, it's such a wonderful performance. Truly, truly wonderful. Just not, simply not enough of him, but a great, great, great performance. I quite agree. I quite agree. I wish that they would go back and change the first fight we saw being the CCTV. Yeah.

Well, if we get another white tiger in the season, like if we get his niece, or his sister, then perhaps we will see like a more involved white tiger fight. That'll be wonderful. A non-CCTV white tiger fight. Let me tell you something we did see in this episode. Dirty Cowell, he's back. And Joanna Robinson, he's fucking fine.

He has some bruising and a few lacerations on his face. On his neck. We spent multiple moments last episode saying, how could this person be alive? If he is alive, surely he will be in a vegetative state for the rest of his existence. He dropped him on his neck. Plugged into every tube.

Nope. He doesn't even seem concussed. No. And he's sassy. He's ready to sass Matt. About his sunglasses. Matt, we got another, another Matt, like,

are you talking to me? Oh, Matt loves fucking with this guy. I'm just like walking right into him. Loves fucking this guy. So they're threatening in the bathroom. They are threatening each other. And I love this. we got one of my favorite,

presumed innocent, a mixed bag of a season of television, but one of the very best scenes was between Jake Gyllenhaal's character and Peter Sars Guard and also the cat. But Jake Jeline Hall's character and Peter Sars is character

who were going to be on the opposite sides of this case. Yeah. In the back, like, the conversation in the bathroom of, you know, the devil's advocate, like there's a million versions of this scene of opposing counsel

or this, that, and the other, the conversation in the bathroom before, usually the men's room before the case. It's a classic scenario. It really is. It's great. Powell, he fucking sucks, ma'am. There's a lot going on to kind of build toward where we're heading in this trial. One of these things, Joanna, is Cherry, who we will now be, I guess, canonically referring to, thanks to Nikki Torres, as Cherry Cola. Alternatively, if you're a 90s kid, chick a Cherry Cola. Yes.

Absolutely. Do you respect to Savage Garden. Absolutely. I still love that. I love that song. Same. I still love that song. Same.

All right. This is not specifically about Matt, but I'm going to put it on Matt as just like a larger question about the tactics and the approach of the hypocrisy and associates division. The shell game that they play here. Cherry goes to what appeared to be like maybe like a. like a dry cleaner, a laundromat, safe house, a lot of shirts and plastic bags. Forrest is there and Nikki Torres is there. And Cherry brings Nikki a baggie of drugs.

A fix. Doesn't want him sweating and puking on the stand, right? They got to get that big reveal. Nikki Torres is a wreck. He's not actively puking in this moment, but he is sweating. How do they think this is going to? They have not prepped their client for the reality of this. They think this is going to work? Yeah. Oh, no. Also, I meant to mention this last week, but it really came through when he comes in and he's like super sardonic about the fix of drugs. It's real Mike Armentrout from Breaking Bad and or Better Callsall energy coming off of Ticka Chola here. Like, it's just... He's going to stick, I think. The sort of like slightly dower fixer energy is pretty phenomenal. What did she make in the mural that Cherry passed on this way to,

give drugs to To Jerry Go on the past On this way to Bring Nikki his fix We get another We assume Mews mural There's a tag on it It's definitely

Mews When is Mews going to actually Reveal himself in full in the story? Like we're three episodes Into a nine episode season Who's the big bad of the story? Who's the big bad of the story? In the earlier iteration of the story

It was a case of the week. Yeah. So he's not, I mean, the kingpin's the big bad, right? Right. So his muse is just an episode or two, you think? I think, but like maybe just like a later episode or two, you know? Yeah. Yeah. A little white tiger-esque arc.

Yeah. But on a slow boil in the background. A little steamy vegetable on the range. Yeah. A slow boil, much like the visor of the victims that he will then turn it to paint. Comic-Cannon. It's on the table. Tis. What did you make of this mural?

Triggered. Yeah. Across the Punisher skull. I mean, it's cute. You liked it. You're going to buy a Muse original. I love wordplay. Yeah.

I love the phrase triggered. Only the best people use it. And, yeah. There's like a skylight underneath. I don't know. It's, you know, it's another, like, Punisher's coming sort of moment in the show. What are you doing?

I'm going to be really upset if. Punisher. I've not watched the head so I don't know if Punisher. If the next episode is Frank and I miss it, I'm going to be despondent, honestly. No, but like the good news is the good news is next week we're not doing like a classic. True. Deep dive. So you and I can do that when you get back. But then the week after is the double. So it's like going to be a trope. A triptych. We will be Francis Bacon. Well, when we are reunited. Do you think these cameras are off? Are these white someone? I see red lights?

Okay. See a green light over there? It was a mistake to put us in this room. There's a counter. It is. I know this is not technically the void, but it is. It is. Yeah, you see why the void earned its name.

It's very void of void. It's the voice and Andy. It is. It sure is. Though even they have moved into sea. Everyone is. Everyone is fighting for sea. So Joanna, Hector's trial has somehow already begun.

I am not a lawyer, but I did find this. again, this might be just dumb. Maybe things happen this quickly all the time. I was disoriented a little bit about the passage of time inside of the episode. I, like, found myself pausing and rewinding to go check that they were changing outfits, a number of days are passing. But like, jury selection. How is it?

How are we already having a trial? I mean, we don't want to watch all of that. That's not the show we want every single step of the, like, there's a case. Here's the deal. But then I don't know how much time has passed. So I'm like, how long have Matt and Heather been dating? Oh, your BVY question. I understand.

I love a BB Y. You do love the BB Y. I think that I'm more than okay with plenty of courtroom hijinks. We talked about my love of Perry Mason, which is just like throws procedure out the window for the most part. So like to make it dramatic and fun to watch, I'm fine with cutting all kinds of corners. We did have a lawyer point out. I didn't even like put this one in the dock, but we did have a lawyer point out like the order of the witnesses in this is completely. You know, because you've got to have, like, the prosecution and then the defense or vice versa, whatever.

But it's like all of their witnesses and all they were like pinging, ponging, ponging back and forth. And it was just like, you can recall people anyway. I'm fine with all of that. Yeah. It's all the other shit that Matt pulls that I'm just sort of like. Yeah. The only thing that it, yeah, I just had a little, like, I felt a little at sea not knowing how long, like, Hector and Matt had been interacting. Because, like, then it makes the depth of the betrayal even greater. If they had known each other for two seconds, it would have been a fucked up thing to do.

but it's like how many conversations did they have where Matt didn't say like this is what I think we should do anyway. We're not on, or Hector's not on the stand yet. Powellless. Talking about how shitty the nicks are. And he's just fine. He laid him in his neck and he's just fine. Oh my God. So Hawks tactic here is basically just like, you know, talk about your commendations.

Talk about how long you and your now dead partner knew each other, right? All of that. And then Matt comes to cross-examine the witness. And honestly, this was great. It's like, I hear you have a black eye. The best cure for a black guy, fast hands. Just a little Betel and Jack wisdom there, but also like, I fucked you up. I thought that, but you can't admit it.

Like, that was, that was delightful. Sassy Matt, Marriott. Yeah, I love when Matt is a saucy little bastard. I thought that Powell, again, I don't, I'm not a lawyer. No? I don't know how the law works, but I'm just like, can't everybody tell the Pauley. was lying and this is perjury? I know your bit is I'm not a lawyer but what you're really given is like a plain talking country lawyer like I don't know any of your newfangled New York City court

tricks. Exactly. But but that guy's lying. That's exactly right. That's exactly it. He's just like as Matt wants completely shocked and flustered when Matt brings up Nikki and this is when Matt superhears the dirty cop with the neck tat. Say Torres cannot testify. All right. I would like to get to. Not my biggest note for Matt Murdoch, but I have a big note for Matt Murdoch here.

What the fuck is he doing? Okay, well, two things. This is stupid. And maybe he thought, a la Perry Mason, he could provoke a confession on the stand. Like, you just say the name, Nicky Torres.

It's like, you got me. I did it. Nikki Torres better be in the next fucking room then. Howevskis. I did learn from our email lawyers. Yeah, okay. Well, I don't know if you know this, but I am not a lawyer. The Hobbit lawyers and the Dragon lawyers.

I don't think I put this part, again, we got a lot of lawyer emails. I didn't put this part in the notes, but apparently, and TV taught me differently, but apparently surprise witnesses are not a thing. Right. You have to tell. Yes. So if he's going to put Nikki Torres on the stand, you know, like the prosecution already needed to, the just the year already needed to know.

Right. So this whole like shock, a reveal, maybe I'll catch you. The defense calls. Doesn't make sense. Yeah, that doesn't happen. I just like, Matt, there have been a number of times over our three prior seasons with Matt Murdoch where he has seen somebody get to the jury,

a witness, corrupt and befal in some way, the sanctity of what is meant to unfold in that courtroom. this was actually like to me just annoying and sloppy. I don't think Matt makes this mistake. Whether he had to declare it in advance or not, like, I don't think he leaves open the opportunity for somebody to get to Nikki. Now, maybe it ultimately is just that Nikki is standing there,

sitting on the stand, and looks out at all the cops in the room and loses his confidence then. That's what it seems like to me. But time passed. Like Powell is the one when they do the silence of the lamb, lambs fake out with chiquetri-cola and forest, and we think Nikki is in the van and he was really in the cap

and we're like, whoo, what a relief. Like, this is a different day. They're all wearing different outfits. So even if Nikki just lost his courage, Matt still left open the opportunity for somebody to get to him. And then they have the conversation later.

They debrief Kirsten and Chick-Cherry Cola. It's happened, I guess. And Matt, and they're like, well, maybe the cops got to him. Maybe they threatened his kid. It's like no opportunity for those maybes should have ever existed. That's just sloppy work from Matt Murdoch.

Tell me that. a good decision that Matt Murdoch made in this episode. As a lawyer, I can't think of any. I mean, I guess cooking dinner for a beautiful woman you're about to fuck. That was a good decision. But other than that, they have nothing. I mean, appalling stuff from him as a lawyer. So, Nikki loses his courage, Joe. I thought that was great. And the Midnight Boys talked about this too. I thought it was a really good scene to watch him, because I don't think they got to him. I think it was just him on the stand with the overwhelm of all of those cops and they're whispering and they're looking and all that sort of stuff like that. It's just sort of like how how do you combat that, that wall of authority, corrupt as it may be?

Matt, does not go well for Matt? Joanna, he embarrassed himself. He embarrassed himself. Kirsten, tough time for Kirsten. These two are giving me such strong John Sonsa, like, please have a pre-meeting and get on the same page. I'm like, stop yelling at each other for everybody. to see and bickering and undermining each other for everybody to see. Mortifying. Unfessional. Soppy. Judge Cooper tells him to stand down. And this is a very important

name what we got from our listener. Honestly, thank you. Our listener, Ashley, and I did double check this. Ashley said, did anyone else notice how the judge at White Tiger's trial is the same actor as the colonel who likes to be ball gagged and whipped by a femme dom in the Punisher, Wild Stuff. This is sensational. And, The second actor to be recycled. This now makes me retract and withdraw my question. About John Benjamin Hickey, yeah. About Hawk playing a completely different character than he played in Jessica Jones,

because now maybe they're actually doing this on purpose. Like, well, other characters from the Netflix Marvelverse or other actors from the Netflix Marvelverse come and play different characters here. This is just a fantastic observation. Thank you for reminding us of this. I like to think they're twins. And I like to think Judge Cooper also likes to be ballgiveness. I didn't whip by Fembedom.

Yeah. Yeah. Judge Cooper, he sucks. He's terrible. Look what he's dealing with, though. It's true. It's true. Mad Murdoch, who like, did he go to law school?

I don't know. Tough one here for Landman and Zach, you know. What did he learn, really, at that internship, ultimately. Not much, apparently. All right. Where the good bagels are? Exactly. I regret to inform you that we do need to spend a minute here talking once again for the second

we could have wrote about how clearly what the show is trying to do with Matt, Kirsten, and Chickaherry Cola, which is new Nelson Murdoch and Page, is just not flatline working at all. No. And it's not just the, again, you're my law partner, you're my confidant. There are three of us. We get more bourbon. Yeah, we talk about cases and we drink together. It is like this scene where they have to withdraw, withdrawal Paliswit. And then they debrief.

And Matt's like, we only have one play. We put Hector on the stand. We hope the jury sees him the way we do. It's our only move. And Kirsten says, we're going to need a lot more bourbon. It takes zero. Zero mental gymnastics to imagine that scene playing out. With Karen.

With Karen and Foggy, as clearly it should have. And being the fabric and lifeblood of the show? Yeah. So I just don't understand this. Like, again, last week. I was very open to, while mourning and quite sad about losing fog, you're very open to this idea that actually seeing Matt, like, not only have to mourn and carry that grief, but move into a different phase of his life and have different relationships and like try to find connection and forge connection with other people was interesting to me. But if it doesn't compel us, then ultimately it's just a period of problem for the show. Yeah. And I don't, I don't feel it with these three, like at all. So I'm concerned. It's not, I'm not hopeful. And it makes me uncertain about other things. So that's, that's where I am.

Then we get to like the worst thing that's, Karen. Will you celebrate? I mean, they're going, they've said they're going to. Should they do it sooner than they were originally planning? Should you just like cut her into the next episode? Oh, maybe Miss Karen. That's, that's tough. That's, that couldn't be done. Here we are. Okay. Then Matt does the worst thing... This is Apollo. That we've ever seen Matt do. I honestly can't... I mean, we obviously talked about it started at the beginning of the pop,

but I just can't believe he did this. No. I'm so upset with him. Hashtag not my dare double. Like... I remain really open to this as an active pursuit and something they're doing for a reason. But I just was like, Matt, why would Matt do this?

What would outing Hector, what would Matt have done if somebody had done that to him? The Matt, we spent three seasons with on Netflix. Obviously, there are plenty of comic plotlines where someone learns his identity. Not even just Matt that we spent three seasons with on Netflix. Matt who we just, relatively just, saw in Shee Hulk defending a guy who makes superhero costumes and saying, we can't release his list because then you'll expose the identities. and then he says, and I quote, we're not talking about celebrities,

but superheroes who have enemies who will try to harm them and people close to them, the ones who didn't ask to be part of this life. Ms. Walters chose to have her identity be public, but she can't choose for everyone else. This isn't about privacy for privacy's sake. If this information is not protected,

not only would it ruin my client's career, it could put a lot of people in a lot of danger and all over one man's misuse of a suit. Matt passionately defending, keeping. Now, you can argue if you want, and plenty of people will. I don't know the B.B.W. Wies of all of this. You know what I mean? But, like, that this is pre-foggy death, Matt.

And post-foggy death Matt. Yeah. That he's just completely at sea. Yeah. You know, POV. But it's just so disorienting for us to have that be like the last thing we saw him do in a legal case. Yeah. And for him to do this.

I need to see him probably next episode where Matt is like what has happened to me. I feel like that has to happen by next episode. Maybe episode. And if it doesn't? And if it doesn't? Okay. So next week's episode, Frank shows up. Karen returns.

Matt's like, oh no, what have I done? Mews amassed himself. But all of that happens on a bench in front of a church. And Fisk swaps his red apple pin for a green apple pin. And then dust some chimes. onto a full yolk omelet. Yeah, a full yolk omelet. Okay.

I would fly back from Baltimore early. On the genuine high comedy front. Oh. John Benjamin Hinkie. Boy, you're a real slippery piece of shit, you know that. Is there a division of hypocrisy that we're not going to associate it's because Matt, of course, last episode was the one who was like, we can't let the white tiger reveal. anywhere near this case. And now he is basically entrapped.

Not only has he outed Hector without his permission, he is entrapping Judge Cooper. And just like the goofiest pulling the mask out of the bag. That was tough. Deeply goofy. Would you have been more compelled if instead he had pulled out an iPad and played the... If he had put out, taken out a text message and someone had texted him was very small. Take it to the jury.

It was like on a Nokia. Oh my goodness. But yeah, this was just, this was really wild stuff from Matt. And of course,

he did force Judge Cooper to do exactly the thing that he was banking on, which was like, what's the fucking point of telling them to pretend they didn't hear that? I'm late for my

ball gag and I got to get. It's not a ball gag to put in my mouth. Let's hustle Murlock. And then Matt has to face the real judgment.

Hawk, Cooper. Okay. Hector. This wasn't your secret to tell. And it wasn't. What would have been, I think, very... And then Matt's like, you've got to stop, hang up the costume. Okay, so that actually I thought was...

Obviously, nothing is really truly more galling than revealing that Hector is White Tiger without telling him he was going to do it without asking him. The fact that Hector's like, why didn't you talk to me about it? the answer is because Matt knows what Hector would say. He would say, don't do it. That's why he didn't ask them. Obviously. But he's like, I put a target on your back. Yeah. And your family's back. Your family's here in the courtroom. So target on your back. Target on all these women who have come to support you in the courtroom. Okay. And also don't put that amulet on that. That gives you special powers that, like, protect you.

Just like, just move on with your life. That was another moment on the amulet front, actually. I'm glad I'm glad you said that. Like, that reminds me the moment where Matt was as part of his attempt to sway the jury like or compel the jury. jury, you know, would you, why, if he had, if he had meant to do them harm, why wouldn't he have, why would he have gone down there without his amulet on? Like, would you go down there without one, with one hand tie behind your back? Like, I wouldn't. Of course we have seen Matt Murdoch do something like, literally do that. It's all he does, right, is do something when he's vulnerable, when he's beaten, when he's inch from death. And so that was another moment where like,

we just, he feels so out of touch and out of sync and out of tune with the, the nature of who he is and why he does the things that he does. The, on the more appalling even than outing him front, like telling him he can't be white tiger that that's over, it was just obviously not Matt's decision to make about another person's life. And if anybody had ever tried to do that to Matt, I mean, even when Matt and Foggy were,

when Matt was trying to get Foggy to forgive him in season two and trying to fight their way back to each other, when Matt finally lost his patience was like, we talked about this on our primer pod, when he was like, he's wrong and he's behaving badly at the time, but he kind of wins us when he says, I'm done apologizing for who I am. Like, one of the core pillars of Matt Murdoch's life is like,

I make mistakes, I'm consumed by my doubt. And my guilt. And my guilt. But I know that this is the thing I have to do. And nobody will tell me otherwise. And so he just told Hector otherwise. Terrible. In the words of Chambawamba,

you get knocked down, but you get back. again. You never get me keep me down. Yeah. What a jam that was. Yeah. The 90s are alive in this room. I love it. I really do feel Chris and Andy. Who can say? I really feel Chris and Andy here with us. Yeah, that's true. Their spirit. It's here. Joe, even though everything that Matt is doing

makes us so ashamed to love him, the core of like you can help in ways that don't require a mask and then later back in the courtroom when he says the mask doesn't make the man, there is a little bit of the like, you know, Tony saying to Peter in Homecoming, if you're nothing without that suit, then you shouldn't have it. Or even a little bit of an Earth-Kine-esque, like super serum. Yeah.

Good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. I hope that this is a little bit of like a lifeline that Matt can pull on, right? That there's a recognition still of something true, a kernel of something there to nurture. I, the mask is not me. I'm me. I'm Daredevil.

Matt Murdoch is the man in size. of the suit and the man under the horns. Wait, wait. Are you saying you want him to be born again? I would love for him to go from fingering the horn to being born again. To being born again. The verdict. You know what I gotta say? I thought Hawk

he lost me a little bit with the... We get all the character witnesses from Matt that we already talked about. A hawk lost me with the like... you know, let me tout the merits of all the people who don't wear masks and also let me tell you how a body becomes a circus balloon full of blood. I also was like, I don't want to Google this, but could this possibly be true what he's saying about you still being alive? He lost me there. Yeah. But when he made his whole like good people do bad things speech, I was like,

Hawks going to win the case. I guess he forgot to maybe prove guilt. So he probably won't. I guess I'm not a lawyer, but I guess he wasn't going to open the case. I don't know. He kind of forgot. Exactly. Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet. Hawke kind of forgot to prove that Hector meant to kill. Yeah.

Kelshanahan, alas. It has been compelling to watch him. John Benjamin Hickey, veteran of the station screen, is really fun in this role. He's great. And, like, in terms of, like, do I want more legal cases? I don't know. But, like, you want more hawk? do one more hawk.

When he was like, I stood atop a pyramid with 500 ADAs and you're not going to go to traffic court without one of them crawling up your ass. I was like, this is great. But I would love for you to be the one who is constantly challenging Mack because I don't want to say goodbye to Hawk. I'm not ready to say goodbye to Hawk. I still hope that we get some Hawk Fisk action because he was on that list of people that Fisk didn't want to have a meeting with, you know?

That's exciting. Okay, we're to the fingering the horn moment. Yeah. And we had a number of people ran in about this, the way that they shot this moment. Matt comes into the courtroom. It's empty.

And he doesn't sit at both Brandon and Ryan, a lawyer, said that he didn't, he doesn't sit at the table where he's meant to sit. He sits in what Ryan, a lawyer, calls the audience pews of the courtroom.

Right. And so this idea of courtroom as church. Yeah. is interesting. And I know we make plenty of fun of the phrase of fingering the horn, but it's like a rosary. It's like, you know, you're sort of like your, like holding the prayer weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like meditating over an object. Yeah. And you're thinking about, you know, and even like,

even the like shots we get of like Lady Justice, who was blind, like, you know, not just in the opening credits, but inside the episode. It's very like church-like in terms of like, you know. Am I remembering correctly, was this this stretch, the score? Like the coral, very him-like surging score really felt very church-like, yeah, great observations. So I think that's really interesting from our listeners, but I'm curious like what that, to what end. Like, okay, so we're missing Matt in church or any sort of spirituality other than Heather's Irish blessing, which frankly you can stitch on a pillow if you want to, you know what I mean, with love and respect to my fellow Irish friend.

brother. I did know that phrase right away. I had to Google. May the Rose rise up to meet you, et cetera, et cetera. But like, I'm missing the depth of the other spiritual conversations we got. And so if the courtroom is the church, like what what lessons, what are the sermons that we are absorbing from this particular church, you know? Yeah. It's a really interesting question. I think so like a couple things that popped to mind. we talked about last week last week but episode one of the two-part premiere

now it felt very striking that when Matt took the stand in Dexas sentencing you can fix him I really can't you can fix him you don't believe in me there's still time you have six episodes left why not okay

why not why not that he said that justice was not possible that this was just about pursuing the next best thing, the closest thing, an approximation of something that he used to believe in. And so I was really struck again, like, when Matt broke out the whiskey with Heather and told her about, I had a kind of funny response to the scene where I was, like, so moved from on the mat side of it that he, like, wanted Foggy to be present in that moment. It made me so emotional.

And then when Heather was like, are you talking about your friend Foggy Nelson? And he said, yeah, so sad. And I was like, it's just like, it's a bad time. I'm like, fuck off. Anyway, back to the question. I, it would help if you knew how long they were dating. It really would. Though if like, if this has been months, weeks,

and we get something that is presented to us as a first sex scene between the two of them, I'm not going to buy it. Oh, like the first time they had sex? Is that what you're anticipating? Did you read an interview where they said that? that they were going to show like their first time together? There's a shot in the trailer of them fucking. In the shower, right?

Yeah. But that doesn't need to be like their first time. No. But that better not be presented as like, oh, we finally fucked. These two have. If she's like when we're going to tell me about foggy. Matt Murdoch like would not go up to care. Just left Karen there.

This guy was choking people fucking them in boxing rings, but he wouldn't go fuck Karen. No, not good girl, Karen. Brutal. Yeah. Happy to tell her that he can smell her lunch from 18 days ago. But maybe they might be frankly, maybe that's why. Maybe that's why. You were just saying bring back Karen.

I know. I miss Karen. I do. But the thing that was so striking to me about the the presentation of the whiskey and that story about how they had saved up all their money when they were broke coming out of law school and they only opened it to celebrate big victories. And so they had the bottle for a long time. Right.

It was like the idea that not just that Matt wanted Foggy to be present with him, and victory, but that Foggy was always the one who believed and helped Matt, like, maintain that tether to believe that the system, that the halls of justice could be enough. Like when all of those early post-reveal days where Foggy was like, why do you have to be Daredevil? Look at all the, look at what we can do here, that Matt was like, that felt for a moment here restored through Foggy's memory. And so then if he's like, and Hector was killed, well, what is that for? What does that mean?

And it's shattered again. You talking about that is really interesting to me because it makes me think that's a version of his religious doubt, right? But like is he doing all this because he's like, this is what Foggy would want me to do? I'm doing what Foggy wanted us to do all along. And we talked about that last line from Foggy being. Yeah. I didn't want to give you the excuse, right? I didn't want to give you the excuse.

Yeah. This idea of like, I'm at this glitzy, glammy office. This is what Foggy wanted us to do. Yeah. And we wanted us to stay a lamb in Zach. Yeah. And I'm not putting the suit on and I'm not punching. people in the street, even though I really want to.

I'll just punch them in apartments and toss them on their necks and they're fine. You know, and like I'll live the sober straight and narrow if we think of his vigilanteism as like an addiction or whatever. It's not the perfect metaphor. But like, I will do what foggy wanted to do. That would be great if the show made that a little more apparent. But I'm glad to dig through that with you. Can I read this email we got from Amber, which is a bloody. indictment of Matt Murdoch lawyer.

Please. Amber, who spells her name a little differently, that makes me want to say her name like Boston Rob. Amber. Amber. It's probably just Amber. And she's probably had to deal with that in her life. So this email's not going to say Matt Murdoch won the case.

Hector was found not guilty on all charges. And great job. Is that now what the email is? Nope. Oh. Amba. Huh. Amba.

Amber. Amber. is a paralegal. And Amber wrote, this is part of a much longer email, but she wrote, Matt revealing his client's secret identity, after going out of his way to suppress the evidence no less, in the middle of the trial, without his client's consent,

I'd fire him right then and file the bar complaint that day. If Matt had lost the trial, Plot Armour really helped him there. That man would have also lost his license, and for what? So that the trial can become a philosophical debate on vigilanteism, they need the jury to find out about Hector being the white tiger

and they ultimately need the character to die. There are ways to get here that don't make your main character look incompetent as fuck. Like have Matt subpoena the CIA's credit card statements. You can pay with your credit card to get into the subway if he's lying about, you know, like blah, blah, blah. She's like, show Matt being good at his actual job. You need everyone including the jury to find out

that Hector's the white tiger? Easy. The moment the DA's office gets that information, it would get leaked. You can still end the episode with the closing statements about being a philosophical debate on vigilanteism. What I am trying to get at is that by writing this badly, they're actually making Matt look incompetent and irresponsible. And I don't think that's what they meant to do. That being said, and this is where Amber just comes in for the closer.

I do have a theory that Matt is actually canonically a bad lawyer. Yeah. Like his new partner literally told him that he could barely handle his caseload. Foggy was clearly carrying their firm on his back. All of his friends feel bad, so they pretend that Matt is a crate, lawyer while everyone else is trying to come for him. I will say, it was a great email. Amber.

Re-watching all 39 episodes of the Netflix show in fewer days and weeks than people should maybe do that. I was like, this is Matt Murdoch a bad lawyer? Yeah. Like, there are plenty of moments where, I mean, nothing quite as egregious as this, obviously. But, yeah, a man, we'll see. We got six episodes left.

A man who has lost his grip on his own principles. Interesting. Not understanding how the character would feel and behave bad storytelling. Calamity. So calamity. We will see where it goes. And we should note that the comic book arc, Daredevil number 38 through 40,

the Brian Michael Bendis and Manuel Gutierrez, three-issue arc on the White Tiger trial on the Hector Iala trial. In the comics, if anybody's interested in seeing more of this, Daniel Chin wrote a great piece about it on the ringer.com on a great website. He's found guilty. Yeah. He is innocent, is found guilty, attempts to flee because he has been wrongly convicted and then is gone down on the steps.

Horrifying. So obviously what happens here is upsetting in a different way, but that's the gunned. That felt like a good change to make. Anything else on the date night? We already talked about feeling the steam. Heather Glenn, we haven't gone into her, but she's a Daredevil comic love interest. Usually like rich girl, sort of like a Veronica from an Archie comic sort of figure.

So this like therapist, slightly more queen salt of the earth, kind of thing is a different take on the character. So I don't know if they're just doing her in name only, essentially. Yeah. But yeah, the May God hold them in the hollow of his hands. What did you make of Matt's response to that? It felt to me like he had a, oh, you're also a believer? Should we fuck?

Should we fuck and then talk about God? He can use both of those things, I think. I want that for him and I want it for us. Do you want to do Kinky Catholic guilt sex? Maybe that's what we need to warm up to that new apartment. I don't know. Okay. Oh, I did. I thought I saw it.

We haven't yet to go into the bedroom. Lamentably. But I thought in the distance we could see that there did appear to be exposed brick on the wall of the bedroom. Hopefully I haven't completely abandoned how Matt Murdoch would pick a home. Okay. I have some of a little Hell's Kitchen vibe in the Hell's Kitchen. in the hell's kitchen in the sheets, incompetent lawyer in the streets.

Is that what you're saying? New business cards for Maddie Murdoch. Is there also room for the hypocrisy division of Murdoch and associates there? Or will we need to save that for the letterhead? Who can say? Actors death. I was a listener Raphael, who was one of a few but not as many as one would hope, who wrote it in passion defense of the show.

In a Monkies of Passion Defense, noted that the song that plays at the end of this episode, Una Palabra, is the same song that plays at the end of Man on Fire. Just a fun fact. What about? Great call Raphael. Second most interesting observation of the pod after the ball gag. Sorry.

If we're being honest and if we're keeping score. But also pretty good. Yeah, very good. Also pretty good. We already talked about Hector's death at the end. We talked about the Punisher symbol. Do we want to delve in a little bit further to how we think Matt might respond to this? Yeah, so we've got a couple good emails on this front.

We got a listener McKinley wrote in saying, with Chick-a-Cherry Cola. Sorry. McKinley wrote with Cherry putting Daredevil and White Tiger on the same level in the premiere and all the talk about White Tiger picking up the slack with Daredevil being gone. This definitely sets up Matt feeling like. like he owes it to Hector and the capital C city to put the mask back on. He exposed Hector's secret to win the case, but also put him in the crosshairs of dirty cops.

And so the line from Chickicatari Cola in the first episode is when talking about retiring. It says, am I? Daredevil, White Tiger, they're the future. We're obsolete. So, and his colleague is like, fuck the fuck up. She's like, we're the thin blue line. I was like, okay. Anyway, so on McKinley's

Put the Mask Back on question. Yes. Where are we with Suitup Watch? I'm going to read one more email and then I'm going to turn it back to you in the studio, aka the small room where perhaps the cameras are not on and the mics are not on. Michael wrote, looking back in the previous Disney Plus Marvel TV shows, it seems like there's a pattern with everyone getting or teasing their costumes in the penultimate and showcasing them in the finale with limited exceptions, Loki,

Moon Knight and She-Hulk. Wanda Vision, Falconer, Soldier, Hawkeye, Miss Marvel, Secret Invasion, Fury gets his eyepatch and coat back, and Echo all follow this formula, so I'm guessing Daredevil will follow, quote-unquote, suit. Latitude. So two thoughts. Are we going to have to wait until the penultimate

episode to see Maddie back in the suit with the mask? And a friend of mine, his theory was that fight at the beginning that we get between Matt and Bullseye that was added to episode one. You can fix him.

I can fix him. You can fix him. Just so you wait and see. But that fight we get in the first episode, was that put in there because otherwise... There's no suit. There's no suit until the finale. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm trying to think to... Among other things. Yeah, I'm trying to think back to the trailers. If we see... We get a shot of, like, Matt... We get a shot of all the helmets. all the different color schemes, all the different masks.

Yeah, I guess that made me think wrongly that we'd be just like, he'd be like a different mask every episode. What's color away am I rocking today? You know? But yeah, maybe that's like the grand return. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's why he needed to move to the shitty new apartment. More storage space. For his mask. For his masks that he's not going to wear. Yeah. If Heather finds them, will he try to convince her that they're just like role play sex stuff? He's like, can I issue in a ball gag? Okay. Yeah, I am... I think I'm now in the...

He doesn't put the suit back on until the very end camp. Which, I mean, I guess the question for you is, does he put on some athleteure before then? Or are we just in suits? And then we're in the suit. If he brings back the... He'd be thrilled. The black... What if he wears the black athleisure to beat up Buck Cashman?

Well, you just retire? Conflict of interest But that would just be like All so many of your passions And then Dex shows up Wow And someone on screen says Joanna can fix him

Could happen Episode 7 maybe We have two more emails I cannot read this email From Sai in full But I really wish I could So I wrote this in like iconic email

In the voice I'm just gonna read the start of it You have to stop me Okay Like Kingpin or Daredevil might say It's up to you to stop me. Arlissor Sigh, who's a lawyer,

saw him you've heard it, wrote in and says, may it please the court. Opposing counsel has skillfully made their case for why your honor should render a verdict of, quote, wait and see when it comes to the first two episodes of Daredevil Born Again. Their logic is sound. Far be it from me to suggest that the illustrious

attorneys at Rubin and Robinson have engaged in questionable analysis of the program's writing, plot congruency, aesthetic appeal, and goofy-ass ballseye fight. I shall not quibble with their arguments. But is it not true that a television program can have value beyond these considerations? Can we not look to the broader position of the show in society to gauge at least some amount of its worth? And so, Cy, who is a New York lawyer who says he is blind, is blind. I don't know why

I said it that way. It talks about not only representation, but also, and I didn't know this, that when Daredevil first premiered on Netflix, there was this hue and cry about the accessibility question of like the narration, which we eventually took advantage of when we got to acolyte, but, like, you know, has been very helpful for accessibility to TV shows. So, like, Daredevil as, like, you know, watching Matt Murdoch, for better for worse, and sometimes, size says worse, like, represent the blind community

in a show, but, like, a blind superhero is, like, important to him. Yeah, of course. Daredevil, the TV show, you know, changed. accessibility, conversation around television, which is incredible. In conclusion, I write now, is Mr. Murdoch blind in any way that is recognized to actual blind people? No. Does the series traffic and stereotypes of blind people, like literally making a whole superhero out of our heightened senses naturally, was actually glad that building exploded before

Kareen and Foggy could touch each other's faces to quote, know how blind people experience each other because watching that would have actually made me vomit? You bet. But for those concerns, I raise the yada yada something something exception to the rule of baseline humanity and internal logic. An exception which this court has noted is applicable in both comic book litigation as well as anything involving disabilities because let's be real, it's rough out there and we take what we can get. P.S. And I thought this is great. So I wrote, funny how Matt immediately knows immediately when a woman is suppressing her queen's accent from across the river, but has never once noticed himself slipping into an accent from a accent from a moment.

across the ocean. If everyone else can't hear this as frequently as I can, then I guess we can just wave our hands and say it's a blind thing. But shots fire at Charlie Cox's British accent. Anyway, a legendary email from Sae that is like five times as long as what I just read, but really good stuff. And then MJ was asking, what can we intuit to your BBI point about what role the blip might have played in all of this, aka we prefer to call it the Snap. here in this room. Was Fisk snapped? No.

Because Echo lets us know he wasn't. Right. Yeah. Was Vanessa snapped? Probably not. Was Marcy snapped? And that's why Foggy moved on,

you know, sort of thing. Like, did the snap have something to do with Fisk getting, you know, escaping justice the way that he did. You know, like, yeah. Marvel has moved away from like really, really, really dwelling on the implications

of this world-breaking event that they put inside of their movies. They're like, people didn't really dig when we spent half of Falcon Winter Soldier on that. All the Shang-she conversations about it, nobody cared.

So like, you know, can we yada yada snap away some like rough patches between the Matt Murdoch Fisk we knew and the ones we find now? I would be interested in Fisk and Vanessa, one of them having snapped and the other not. Yeah. Because that, yeah, if somebody's living five years without that constant, like, what impact does that have?

Boy, if Marcy was gone and Foggy was just like time to get a hot new haircut and go hit on some ADAs, I mean, I guess Marcy would be back at that point. But, you know, Marcy and Foggy, they had their fun, and that's what counts. They had their fun. I still will just never get over. All of the paperwork being sprawled out because the sex was so good. And then Foggi's like, I solved the case. Sees the open folder. Great stuff.

Actual lawyering from Foggy. Actual emaciation from Foggy, not incompetent. So anyway, Matt Murdoch, in conclusion, wait and see on this show, as we are continuing to do, Matt Murdoch, deeply incompetent. Is that the point? Yes. Let's find out. Bring back Karen, Mallory's favorite character.

You know what? If Frank is back and Karen comes back and Matt has to confront the fact that he did a terrible thing to Hector in this episode, I'll be absolutely thrilled. Absolutely thrilled. Before we go, any Easter eggs that you would like to call out? I think we've talked about almost all of them, but there are a couple others that we have highlighted today. Did you have a favorite from the ones we've already discussed or the ones we haven't? I think it has to be the frog sounds over the closing credits. That's really nice.

Very like hammer in the cave over the closing credits moment. Yeah, totally. Two characters who had been with us for equal amounts of time. Equal amounts of time. Actually, if like Heather, if Hector hadn't been so compelling, it could have been outrageous, actually, to like do the Tony treatment. Yeah. But we were so moved. I'm going to go with Officer Morales when, because McDuffie is like reading one of the testimonials and then Matt is like dropping folder after folder listing other officer names.

One of them is Officer Morales. So is this Miles' dad? Is this Jefferson Morales? Could be. That's an exciting thing to think about. It would be thrilling. Wonderful stuff. Okay.

That's it. We did it. We made another podcast. Was it recorded? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a little. I don't know.

I don't know about your newfangled devices. Your Yankee recording devices. I feel like this is kind of a hybrid in a great way that I'm loving of your D&D ring request character and some righteous gemstones. Adjacent accent work. That's great. I'm loving it. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, too. Steve Allman. Yes. John Richter. John. Arjuna Ramgapal. Juna. Joan the antennae.

The best. They would never let us do what Matt did in the courtroom in this episode. And if we did, they wouldn't be like, Joe and Matt, they'd wait to yell at us until after in private. God damn it. I'd like to think so. The best team there is. And thank you, of course, to the bad babies for joining us yet again. we will see you at the top of next week for Yellow Jackets.

I was five and six. It was like a long time ago since we talked about episode four. My goodness. Episodes five and six. And then Joe will have a daredevil-y surprise. Yeah. Cooking something up. In the kitchen.

In the kitchen. The kitchen of content. Yeah. They won't let us back into hell's kitchen, but they can't keep you out of the kitchen content. Correct. You're going to feel that steam. Yeah. Just like Matt did.

Heather's going to come in and say, I'm a podcaster. cooks. All right, we did it. Goodbye. Bye.