House of R - 'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

The Devil has returned, and he brought two of his friends with him. Mal and Jo return to break down the Season 1 finale of 'Daredevil: Born Again' (05:12). They dive into the elements that made this finale great and discuss the return of Frank Castle, Karen adding a spark, and what they would like to see from the next season, coming soon. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Supervision: John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal and Oscar De La Luz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Greetings. And welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to our favorite Freeport,

Red Hook, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, reminding me that there's nothing in this work, world, a good cup of coffee can't fix. It's my favorite punisher, Joanna Robinson. Hi, I'm Joanna Robinson, and she didn't say it, but that's Mallory Rubin. You didn't say your name for the first time ever. Hello. So tired. It's a very special day. It's a very special day. We're here to crunch. Okay, here's a quick question for you. Yeah. As Frank Castle is crunching on some, I don't know, pain relievers, one assumes. Yeah, I don't like chewing pills, as you know, from our White Lotus conversations.

Speaking of Tim Ratliff and his dry pill swallowing. I was indeed. I was like I retract every negative thing I said about Tim Ratliff because at least he was swallowing and not fucking crunching a pill. Anyways, is this what people come for her on a Daredevil pod? Good question. Who should say? I don't stand with Frank Castle on the pill chewing, but I do stand with him on the deep

and abiding love for a good cup of coffee. That's true. We are here in case you can't tell to talk about the finale of Daredevil Born again season one. But before we try to figure out whether they are, in fact, calling Matt Nightgown Man now, some quick programming reminders. I'm going to do these in two little buckets because we're heading into a big stretch where we've got Last of Us and and or happening at the same time.

Yes. Here's the slate. Going to run through it very quickly. House of our deep dives for the last of us? Mondays. Mondays, baby. Midnight boys, pew, pew, pew. We'll be potting in instant reaction fashion to the last of us on Sunday night. Monday.

We'll see early of the week, top of the week. Nice. The watch. We'll be checking in on Mondays. On the Prestige TV podcast, Joe and Rob, we'll be checking in on Wednesday nights, Pacific time. Thursday mornings, if you're on the East Coast. And button mash, Ben and Daniel, will be checking in with a gamer's guide on Thursdays. We will have coverage across the ringer.com.

What a great website. It is a full court press. We love The Last of Us. we can't wait to cover the rest of the season. Check out our episode one pods if you haven't yet. Those are all waiting for you already on the Fates. So good. I'm so pleased that we're back in the Last of Us territory.

And I had such a good time recording the less of us, episode one with you. Same. The best. I'm like despondent. We only have six left. I know. But also thrilled we have six more to talk about. And then at the same time, we will, at long last, be diving back into a lot of.

Andor because season two of Andor starts next week. Three episodes of Andor are going to be airing every week and we will be there to cover them here at the House of Our. We will be doing our Andor deep dives and they will be deep. I mean, they will be deep. How deep who can say? Tony Gilroy knows. Tony Gilroy knows. On Thursday evenings, most likely, is when those will be hitting your feeds. And the Midnight Boys, Poo, we'll be checking in on Andor on Wednesdays. obviously Chris and Andy will be talking about their favorite piece of Star Wars over on the watch as well. What a great time to be asked. Joe, we're also only two weeks away from Thunderbolts.

The most important film of the year, Thunderbolts? Exactly. Just so. Just so. Let me ask you a quick question. How can the people follow along? Oh, my God. What a fantastic question. First of all, you can watch us, by the way, on YouTube, on the Regnerverse channel. You can watch us on Spotify inside of the Spotify app. You just pull up the podcast and there's our little faces talking about content. It's great time. So in order to do that, it would be a good idea. Follow the pod on Spotify, where you get your podcasts. Subscribe to the YouTube channel.

We love that. Follows on social. That's a good idea. Jomey does a great job, as always, on all the social channels. You can see some unhinged out-of-contact clips of us talking about mushrooms or whatever the case may be. So that's all great. Also, you can always email us Hobbits and Drive. dragons at gmail.com. We have some fun daredevil emails this week. We also are getting a lot of

of the last of us emails from you. Thank you so much. But get ready to talk to us about Andor as well. What a time for us on this feed. So yeah, there you go. Delightful stuff. Here's the other thing. It's the friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning. We're talking about the finale. We're talking about the entire season of Daredevil born again. If it happened in the Netflix Daredevilverse, it could come up today. If it's ever happened in the MCU, it could come up today. If it's ever happened in a comic, it could come up today. That's the first. friendly neighborhoods. That's a lot.

Yeah, it is. But you know what? We need one more thing. I need you to pass the oat milk. I've never felt more seen. That was great. Just a great moment. I love it.

It me and 95% of Los Angeles drinking oat milk only. Totally. Great stuff. All right, Joe. It is time to pod and we are going to begin, as always, with our opening snapshot. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity,

or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zep bound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take up allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled. procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit Zepbounce.lily.com.

Episode 9. Straight to hell. I feel like you should say it in your fist, I feel like that's the only way you can say. Episode 9. Straight to hell. There it is. There it is. Vanessa. Vanessa.

Directed once again by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson, written by Heather Belson and Dario, Skardupane, runtime. 59 minutes. This checked in at a full chunky hour. Chunky. Robust. Joe, before we dive in,

we're going to be going broadly chronologically through the finale today. Give us a show. quick thoughts, little table-setters here, amuse, boosh of takes on three things. The finale itself? Yeah. The season overall. Yeah. And your feelings, anticipation level relationship to the impending 2006 release of Daredevil Born

Again season two based on how season one concluded. Yeah, great question. Thank you so much for asking me. Hey, you bet. First and first and first of us. Straight to hell. Straight to hell. First and foremost.

I hate to get a half. of ourselves. This is really the Last of Us thing. But do you remember how when we recorded the Last of Us episode two weeks or nine years ago, whatever that was, I was talking about how in the video game instead of a bear outside of the market, Ellie and Dina see a moose. And I was like, yeah, but you can't really, can you really make a good food pun with moose? Yeah. And a bunch of our listeners wrote in and wrote in with a moose booch. A moose boosh. So see, this is why I mean, there are a lot of reasons why the bad babies are the best. But that's, that's why.

That's why the bad baby is the best. You just said a moose-bush. I was like, I can't wait. I can't wait to share with you a moose-boosh. Even though we would be together again in mere days to talk about last us. I love it. Okay. I love it.

Guess what? I liked this finale. That was great. I liked it. I didn't, like, I think a lot of people liked the last two episodes. I've heard a lot of, I guess, we're back. Maybe I wasn't here last week for the Penultimate. Thank you so much to Ben,

Ben Lindberg and Daniel Chin for filling in. But like I heard a lot of we're back great. This is the era of the new showrunners, these last two episodes, blah, blah. I didn't, I wasn't as high on last, despite her an excellent turn for my guy Dex. I wasn't, I've heard that you can fix him. I know I can. And now he has a tooth that also needs fixing. And that door that he was standing behind needs fixing.

Yeah. Step one, the dentist. Step two, a window guy. Yeah, a pain guy. I got a glass guy. A pain guy. I bet you do. I believe that.

I do. Anyway, so I thought the penalty was like fine, good. I thought this was really good. And I had a great time with it. It doesn't change my feeling about the season overall necessarily. I still feel like it was quite patchy season. And if anything, it kind of underlines a lot of the problems of the previous episodes. Because when you have Frank and Karen, your favorite.

favorite character, Karen, show up. She might be. And I know, honestly. All of a sudden there's, like, actual depth of emotion and connection between the characters. You're like, ah, this is the stuff, Lionel, you know? And so it's like, it just makes it with love and respect to Cherry and Kirsten, it just like makes it feel even more of a failure. And Heather, certainly, that it like never really felt this way with any of those characters.

but I really loved the Karen, Frank, and Matt stuff. Give me a love triangle. I'm all about it. I thought the Fisk stuff was good, too. And it doesn't change my feelings about season one, but it does make me more excited for season two. So I'm feeling pretty good about it. Before I take back to you in the studio, Mallory Rubin, can I mean?

Oh, bug setting? I just want to like that. See her enter. She's here to claw at my foot. Sweet bug. If you see me like cringe and flinch, it's because she sunk her little needle nails into it. Okay, so can I read two emails quickly before I get to your take on it?

Okay. Give us the double car, Steve. We got several emails from people being like, hey, I want to talk about why. Thank you. Why this season has been working for me, right? We got a bunch of those at the end of the season. Great stuff. Yes.

Our listener Ashton Rohn to say, I think part of why I found the show more enjoyable than some folks is that the first seven episodes kind of felt like working through some of the tougher Daredevil comic arcs. I can never fully forgive Kevin Smith and his anti-crise baby run. Even when the story didn't make full sense or we had to deal with characters we didn't like, Heather Glenn wasn't all that great in the comics either. It felt like such a gift to be back in Daredevil's world and having scenes like the Frank and Matt conversation gave me glimmers of hope for the future. It doesn't hurt that Charlie Cox positively oozes charm, regardless of the quality of writing. So Ashton was pointing out that, like, in conjunction with this return to Daredevil on TV, Ashton was sort of reading through all the comics again and was just sort of like, you know, even Apache Daredevil comic is like a Daredevil comic.

So I thought that was interesting. And then Katie brought in with like a little bit of a critique. I do think without question the Frank stuff enhanced this last episode without question. Did it at time feel like Dario, to remind

everyone, was the Punisher Showrunner, was a little more interested in Frank than he was in Matt in this final episode? Maybe. And so Katie says some moments made this episode not feel like a Daredevil show. I loved all the cast of content, but not if it means we're spending too much time away from Matt, which also leads into my final point that this

episode felt like a great mid-season episode, but not a finale. It was like we were brought right to the inflection point of the conflict, and then we were given a wall. We're missing a major showdown between Daredevil and Kingpin, but I guess that's more illuminating the fact that the original creators intended this to be an 18-episode season. So that's, you know, that's a good way to think about season, this being sort of like, not in the cynical Netflix is going to cut Squid game in half for, you know, whatever reasons, but for creative reasons, trying to fix the flow of the season, we do wind up with kind of a half of a season,

which is not the end of the world, but like you can kind of feel it inside of this episode. So, Mallory, what do you think about any of that? Or what do you think about this episode or this season as a whole? Yeah, I really loved the finale. I liked episode eight quite a bit, and I thought this was even stronger. and just a wonderful way to propel us forward into a season two that will be crafted in full

by the folks who gave us a strong end to this season. So that's really exciting. You know, they pulled me back in. I'm quite looking forward to season two and to the Punisher Special. I think to the point in Katie's email, which is totally valid, that it all worked for me so well, I think because I'm such a sucker for the John Barrenthall, Frank Castle, performance in general, and just will take, like, literally any of it that I can get. But also because, like, we weren't with Frank on his own.

I mean, frankly, it's an area where I think a lot of the valid critiques of the season, which is just we never spent time with anybody away from Matt or away from Fisk, really, worked in this sense because the return of Frank was really oriented through his relationship with Red. and through Matt's point of view of Frank and Frank's point of view of Matt, I loved the Frank stuff in this episode. I can't wait to talk about the Frank Karen Matt scenes. Like, I just thought it was absolute magic. And it gave me that feeling in my chest and my heart that I just absolutely love.

I thought it was great. I just was like so happy that Karen was back. I feel like I can hear your heartbeat. Yeah. I mean, it's just adrenaline maybe. Yeah, maybe. Show a deep rooted love. Who could say it?

Maybe both. So I loved all of that. I thought that the Fisk stuff and the finale was so disturbing in our current world that you can't help but toast how effective it was. And in general,

just really liked the finale and I'm looking forward to season two. I'm with you. I think that the fact that the end of the season was so strong made me more frustrated with the parts of the season that weren't. I do not run Marvel or any studio.

don't run Disney. So who am I to comment? But the fact that they knew what they were doing originally wasn't working and knew they needed to reset and then found something successful in the reset, but still kind of put out the Frankensteinian. Yeah. Cobbled together. We'll save what we can and we'll introduce what we can.

You know, I guess there are bottom line reasons to do that. Certainly. You do sort of wish in a world where. reality didn't factor in and certain decisions didn't have to ultimately be made that we could have just really started over and done this a certain way from scratch. But anyway, fun finale. Can't wait to talk about it. Should we dive right in? Let's just do it. Deep dive! Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity.

to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop zep bound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking zes

Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9-9 or visit Zepbounce.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait

as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Joanna, I would like you to travel through time with me to one year ago. Okay. When Vanessa, Vanessa.

Vanessa. recruited, you're a guy, Benjamin Dex, point Dexter, bull's eye. We see it. We see Vanessa visit Dex at the psych ward. He is, boy, he is in a state. He is there serving his time. He is. Pilled to the gills.

He is a shell. Yeah. He is a shell. And, you know, she, this is part of her pitch to him. Like, you can get your mind back. You can get your sense of self back. And she says it with genuine tenderness and epithy in her voice, but she is, without doubt there for a mission of her own and a purpose of her own and Dex is a means.

We hear that just we get this little like tossed away line about, you know, the FBI corruption to deem all that. Shout on Agent Nage. Shout out season three of Daredevil. Shout out season three of Daredevil. The source of the Wilson Fisk acquittal and how that could be. A pathway to Dex and his freedom as well. One little wrinkle.

He's got to agree to kill Dunbeny and Foggy for Vanessa. That's the way out. That's the way out. The way he's like, it was so, I mean, obviously pill addled. But also just sort of like his sad resignation of like, you want me to kill someone. Like I'm just a killing. That's who I am now. I'm just like a killing machine.

I used to have promise. Also, I'm sorry, I need to pause and just say the tooth escape last week was so good. Like, incredible stuff from my favorite person to ever have existed on television. You love an innovative thinker. He's like a guy who can adapt on the fly. Yeah. What's he doing with his tooth? Killing people.

Great stuff. I mean, he's literally bullseye, so it makes sense, but I'm still astonished by the philosophy. was able to get with that dude's been really astonishing stuff. I agree. It was really affecting to see the sorrow the way that he said, because when she invokes Foggy's name, he of course remembers. And the way that he said, escape the past, do we? Like this whole fallacy of the idea dating all the way back to his therapy when he was

a kid that you could ever really move beyond any sort of perilous or damaging. circumstance. That was just so deeply upsetting. And then of course, you know, we remember season three of Daredevil and the way that Fisk manipulated Dex in order to bring him under his thrall and into his employ and the way that that Dex then rebelled against Fisk in the, you know, multi-showdown, everybody including Vanessa, just sort of standing there in the same room at the end. A climactic brawl like turned on Fisk because of Julie and what he had learned. while keeping her frozen corpse in the passenger seat of his car, joke can fix him.

It's fine. It's, we all have things to work through. We all have sentimental keeps saved. Indeed. Indeed, yeah. You collect posters. Dex keeps frozen corpses around. It's fine.

You love a fungo pop. He lives a frozen corpse. I do. The way that he invoked Fisk, like, is he a part of this? And Vanessa is saying, it's not about him. We're not in touch right now. He's off in another show. You probably haven't watched it.

But it's not about him, it's about me, it's about what I need. And the way that Dex said rightly, like he's always a part of this, that looming specter of the kingpin. It was a good tonal note to open the episode on. And I don't want to veer too far from your excellent point that you just made there, but you don't think that they're streaming Echo in the psych ward? It's entirely possible. They're not like, let's make it a binge watch weekend with Echo and the Cyc Ward, no?

You know how many streamers do they have? Maybe they got the bundle. Yeah, the Hulu Disney Plus bundle. So they can also watch Hawkeye. Some ESPN? Yeah. Great. I was thinking about doing some Hawkeye revisitation, you know, get a little, little

Yelina update in my life. Oh, I love that. We're near Thunderbolts. That's only like, what, two episodes of Hawkeye, three? Yeah. Yeah. Mac and cheese based mostly? Exactly.

I'm really just hungry. I want some saracha on my mac and cheese. Joanna, I'd like you to now travel back through time with me to the present. and I'd like you to join me at Metro General, where Matt Murdoch has awoken as expected from his gunshot wound. And Heather and Kirsten are there. And the toughest thing ever is about to happen when Heather sees her boyfriend Matt Murdoch wake. And she goes over and she reaches out. And Matt Murdoch, who can smell what people have eaten days before.

A little honey on cake. who can see them reeds in fire, who can hear their heartbeats, who knows later in this episode that Buck Cashman is coming for him based on the patter of his footwear does not recognize his own girlfriend who he has been having passionate shower sex with for months on end and instead says with the gentlest little yearning, tenderly voice, Karen? It's the drugs. It's the drugs. Don't worry about it. It's the drugs. It's the drugs. It's the drugs, Heather. It's fine. It's tough. I mean, things weren't going very tremendously well between Heather and Matt anyway, but like, yeah, this is a real tough beat.

It was probably over in episode eight when she was like, yeah, you know, if Fisk is going to just point out to everyone, the vigilantes are dangerous, he's got my vote. I mean, it's definitely over later when she joins his administration. But this probably didn't help. Probably didn't help. Do you feel like Dr. Heather Glenn will have a large role to play in season two? Will she just be like background in cabinet meeting sort of thing. That's a great question. I mean, the rise of Daniel Blake and Buck Cashman as an enforcing duo, we're not really going to spend much time today talking about that intimidation scene in the middle of the night with the council, but the way that they work with each other, I mean, that could be season two. When we do this closing montage and everyone's in there, like, I don't know, character poster poses or whatever. The golden light bathing your guy, Daniel Blake, was just truly astounding.

Really astonishing stuff. He went from enthusiastic dipshit who tells his boss he was high on ketamine and accidentally let spill the city secrets to genuinely intimidating mini boss with a quickness. That being said, I liked the baby development in last week's episode. It's great to know that. Overdue. Yeah. Good to know. Glad it happened. Overdue. Thanks, journalism. Matt gets a little sip of water and then he's immediately ready to dive into detective mode.

Kirsten and Heather both have strong reactions to this. But there is a distinction, right? When Matt is running through his questions, this deck's still at large. Okay, Vanessa ordered the hit. Foggy knew he had a win. Oh, Melvonies. Kirsten mentions the motion to dismiss. Kirsten is like, Matt, I'm worried. Later, she'll say, I'm really glad you're okay, but like we've got to have a major talk when you get through. this, but she at least engages. She gives him some information. Heather's response to this is just she's beside herself. She goes to the chair in the corner. She puts her face in her hand. She's sighing deeply. She is not aligned with Matt and she is clocking that now in a way that is no longer something either of them can ignore. And I guess to their credit, they both just say it pretty

plainly to each other. Matt tells her like, I'm sorry that you don't believe me, but this is true. And then she appears to just quiet quit her relationship with Matt Murdoch. She's like, maybe. She's like, I'll see you later. I'll see you later. I'm going to go join the mayor's administration. My hope for Heather. Yes.

Who sucks and has sucked and like whatever. My hopes aren't high. But my hope had been last week when she like collapsed to the ground next to Matt. Yeah. And saw Fisk just high fucking tail it out of there. No one gave a shit about Matt Murdoch and no one gave a shit about her. Yeah. that she would be like, huh, I wonder who's a hero in this scenario.

Is it the guy who dove in front of a bullet for someone? Or is it the guy who just ran like shrieking from the room? But no, Heather, Heather likes power, it seems to me. I don't know. And I'm interested, you know what? I'm a little interested in Heather's villain era. So if that's what Heather wants to lean into in season two, I'm here for it. Okay.

A pro- Heather take at the end of the season. Great stuff. Well, we were talking about this. Okay, yeah, yeah. You mentioned earlier this, the stuff with Fisk at the end throughout, really, is, has been such a Trump-era reflective story. And it's funny because on the prestige pod, Rob and I were covering your friends and neighbors. And John Hamm is out there trying to say that your friends and neighbor is like the show for the time.

And I'm like, I don't know about that. I was like, but you know, like Daredevil, The Last of Us and or, like, the genre shows are really coming through in like a show for our times storytelling. The, the ring of verse content, the house of our content is really like mirror reflective time. So, yeah. Upset it, given the text of all of those shows that we just mentioned. It's fine. Everything's fine. I mean, you know.

Anyway. Oh, God. Okay, so Fiske and Vanessa. They're back, baby. They're back. Can I read this great even we got from Brandon? I'd love it. Who says, I do like how another rabbit in the snowstorm was made with Matt's blood all over Wilson and his white suit.

Yeah. Any thoughts or feelings about that? I think that was why I was totally content to see the white suit return, you know, and it's a black tie ball. You're hoping to fancy? One and done. Yes. Yes. I am dismayed, as you surely anticipated I would be.

that we are back in full, too. Of course, comics accurate. Same. Same. I am an enthusiast of the charcoal suit kingpin, and television persona and always have been. So that is upsetting. But yes, the symbolic resonance of that was certainly delightful.

We have a lot of ties to the past with Wilson and Vanessa. Vanessa in the season overall and in these last couple episodes. because this moment, you know, their version of like the hospital debrief is Vanessa taking a drink to steady herself, saying she's shaken, trying to muster the courage to tell Wilson after they had this breakthrough, we've kind of said it all to each other. Oh, I kept one more thing from you. And that thing is, I violated your season three finale pledge where you told Matt Murdoch, you'd never harm Foggy Nelson or Karen Page. And then you went to the diner with him this season and said, I kept my promise. It wasn't me. Fisk is like the only thing I care about is that you're okay.

And by the way, we're a long way from where we were a few episodes ago when we were distancing ourselves for that. Fis all we had to. Try to. We're kingpin and we're queen pin again. Let's own it. This is like, I read all your journal, Shana. I know what you did. And it's fine.

I love you anyway. Sure, you only told me 10% of the truth. It's fine. How do you feel about this red hook payoff? You know, all season they've been seating this, you know, we were clocking the Red Hook mentions from the jump. How do you feel like this revelation that Red Hook is this, you know, legal haven, tax haven, whatever, for Vanessa to run her money laundering, her art laundering schemes through? So it's interesting in terms of, like, you know, thinking back to our double premiere pod where we observed all of the art around her. And it's not just like, oh, you are and always have been a gallery curator and art enthusiasts.

It's like, no, you are actually, this is a tactical. Yeah. It was nice to see how all of those little strands of Red Hook fit together here. I, this is my dare double born again version of me saying repeatedly as we talked about DNA on yellow jackets. I am not a scientist. I'm not a legal expert. So I guess my question on this was like, wait, it's not like, wait, does nobody know, this? I guess I'm confused by that. This idea that foggy revealing that Red Hook is a free port

would she, the way that Vanessa explains it to Dex is like cast an unwanted light on her business, right? So clearly she thinks this is not something that she wants brought to the fore. But my, I guess my question is like, who is this a secret from? Maybe other crime lords, but like, presumably governments and legal bodies know this? But it feels like, it feels like it was lost a time? Similar to like like Sam stumbling upon

lore in a dusty library somewhere just sort of like yeah in an obscure document here's this free port information that Vanessa also stumbled across but so did Foggy. The other question is

and I don't know that I know the answer to this and maybe they said in the season and I forgot but like the Benny and the truck robbery was that more directly related to the crimes? So it's like, it's not just, oh, this is a free port, that knowledge, but that knowledge is directly related to a case that is connected to Vanessa's criminal doings. Yeah, I think so, given that we then later saw the other truck jacking and that connected to the families all under this, yeah, the umbrella of crime that they're seeking to control.

Be interested to see how, you know, I like to the way Matt declared it when he and Heather, when he, I just did the opposite thing when he and Karen are piecing it all together at the end. Like they're trying to, the FISCs are trying to build and control their own city-state. And the way that Fisk says it here, it's like, you've been moving millions. We can move billions. Like, I'm the mayor now. And, you know, he put it, he put it to Vanessa. He said, I ran to save the city, but opportunities present themselves. Like, this idea of justifying his descent back into his true self.

We love the diner scene. And at the beginning of the season, and so many of those ideas came back for both Matt and Fiske here, right? Yeah, sorry, I was just really good and quickly say that I always love to note, drilled into me by my English seizure in high school when people use passive voice. Yes. For him to say, opportunities present themselves, removes his own agency from this. It's just sort of like, I can't help it act. This just comes to me.

I'm just hearing a suit. I don't know, you know, and then the opportunities present themselves. So, yeah. So I just brought me this tape about Gallo. I definitely didn't want to be committed her into. I know. It's a tough one. Sheila.

It's a tough one. The fact of she's like crying and looking guilt. I'm like, spare me your fucking tears, Sheila. If you're going to sell out, sell out. Oh my God. I know. Yeah. It's very, very painful.

That whole plot line in sequence is just incredibly dismaying. When Fisk said to Matt at the beginning of the season, let's say I followed a roll. less traveled and at its end, I found a new man. And then when he's talking to Matt about himself, like, I love a man who rises above his nature. Good luck with that Murdoch. You know, we always love talking about whether it's Frank and Matt or Fiskin Matt, like how these characters relate to each other or differ from each other in those dark mirrors. Like this idea that not only was this obviously always going to prove to be a lie and just a delaying of the rise of the inevitable

true self and true nature that Fisk has always simultaneously feared that I'm not a monster moment from season one with Fisk and Vanessa that we love. But that he was always going to use these holes of power to channel and heighten his present tendencies. I think him saying to Vanessa, I ran to save the city, is just like the most like self-delusional thing ever. I love New York. It was like it was never about that for you, ever.

And you can tell your. a pretty lie. And Matt, you know, Matt tells himself pretty lies all the time. So, you know, that's fine. But, like, it was always about power and it's also always about, like, your father's shadow, your father's thoughts and feelings around what it meant to truly be in power, is to be in government, all of that sort of stuff. So, yeah, at least there's a little bit more self-awareness inside a Fisk here at the end when he's, like, descended to hell with me and cheers with me over a plate of, you know, pasta, et cetera, like that. That's this.

Delicious, honestly. I am a carb guy. Beautiful champagne suits. I want to be a carb guy. And I support that for you. Wilson Biske. What did you think he's unfolding this safer streets initiative? You know,

first in a smaller room with his trusted advisors and the not so trusted advisors that he is attempting to smoke out and sauce out. And then eventually, of course, to the city large. The performance, like in this scene. It was hysterical, not in a ha-ha funny, but in a uncontrollable mania. Fervor. Yes. As she's talking about, no body cams, no due process, no warrant, lethal force. I encourage it, you know, once the bridges close, the tunnels closed, won't.

He's going to bring in a con-ed guy to force a blackout of the city that he will then pretend with someone else's sabotage. he is relishing, putting the city that to your point from a minute ago he is claiming to try to protect and save and nurture into an active state of harm so that he can then fix the problem that he caused. And this is, again, a textbook and a playbook that in our current moment in time, this is just like so upsetting to watch. And I thought with everything with both Sheila and Gallo, you have these two different. like versions of somebody who seemed to be an opponent inside, right? Sheila is more like, I tried. I tried to say all these things to you.

I tried to point these things out the way that she says to him later when she briefly thinks he's walking it back. Like, well, that's totally fair. Oh, sometimes our response can be like a worse sin than the original offense itself, but then succumbs and perpetuates the corruption and rot. Very human, and I'm really glad that it's represented here, that we have not just the Bucks and the Daniels, but the Sheila's who... Self-preservation. ...compromise, like, the member of the taskwork, Luke, who later says to Gallo, like, I'm just trying to survive. And, like, you know, thinking about...

I know this is not a political podcast, but, like, going back to last week's episode, in the kitchens of the gala, when a guy gets his hand put in the hot oil of the friar and gallo, it's so disturbing now and in fiction to see people just barrel through a reprehensible behavior. Yeah. While even someone is shouting to them, these are the consequences, and they're like, what fucking consequences? And that's like, that's not real. That's how I feel every single time I open. another like New York Times headlines and they're like the Trump administration has decided to defy

the courts. It's like just like what consequences? Like, and how can you stop me? How can you stop me if I don't believe in the rules we've established as a society? And this is what this Fisk administration is just sort of like what rules? Right. What consequences? You know? Yeah. And like it's, I mean, we hear from Matt at the end of this episode, you know, the Matt Murdoch, Daredevil, the man without fear invoking that kind of language for the city. The city without fear will the oppositional force of the Fisk administration as a tyrant without fear, an administration without fear. Totally. They're not fearing that any challenge will ultimately do anything but crumble, either because of the desire to survive, self-preservation, like what we see from Sheila,

or because Fisk believes that he will prove stronger, that he will either be able to use sheer or cunning or money or any other lever of power to remove an obstacle from his way. So saying to Sheila, like using Sheila to eliminate Gallo, these two obstacles in different forms is like from his perspective, from this perspective, just perfect poetic justice in all respects, like to say to her, well, you know, in business, there's always a tipping point. And he's like theoretically talking about the city and the state of play right now. But he's, of course, saying to her, like, this is a tipping point for you. Here's the test.

Are you going to pass? Are you going to the ground? Are you going into it? Are you going into a cage? Right. Or are you going to put someone else in a cage? Right. Or not even a cage for me to smash their head, like Gallagher smash as a watermelon.

You know what I mean? Were you ever expecting to go full red viper on Disney Plus? No, though I will say the popping in the head, of course, is disturbing and distressing and upsetting and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. But there were also moments. in Frank's violent rampages. Yeah.

There's like one giant gout of blood that comes out of someone's groin region that I was just like, wow, Disney. Okay. Some real like waterfalls of blood from neck and head areas as well. Starfish stuff. Very, very, very, very, very violent episode. But it was like the groin geyser that I was like, wow, wow. Here we are.

Okay. Yeah. Groin geyser. I was like, I didn't do it. Frank did it, not me. I just named it. You just named it. You just described it. You're just podcasting. Opportunities present themselves. What can I say? Oh, God. Joe, yeah. It's not just Gallo. It's not just Sheal and the stretch is buck cash from him. Fisk is like, listen, I don't agree. I don't think that it's optically challenging that Matt Murdoch saved me. I think it's great news because a dead here.

Hero. The lawyer of Hell's Kitchen. How dare he invoke Hell's Kitchen here in this finale? Genuinary. When we have spent a second there, frankly, outrageous. Better than a live vigilante. He's sending Buck. Gift bag, teddy bear.

Surringe. Surringe. Did you think of our beloved Misty Quigley, double O Quigley? I mean, anytime we see somebody wielding a potentially lethal syringe, I now find it impossible. I thought he uncaped a chair. not to think of Misty?

I thought he uncapped that syringe way too early. In the hallway? Yeah. Not even in the room? Okay. Yeah, I agree. It would have been so easy. I mean, Matt, you know, spends much of his life processing, not wanting to kill people, including in this episode.

So he would not have done this. But, you know, if it had been like Frank Castle on me to bend to that door, you walk in an open sereners. You're getting into the neck, man. Yellow Jacket Season 2. Okay, so listen. Our listener, Patrick, wrote in to say. Can we talk about how over the course of nine episodes, no one in New York,

a city notoriously not lacking for asshole citizens, love and respect New York, to spend a great week there. I didn't write this, Patrick did. Okay. Called out or questioned that a posh British man is walking around calling himself Buck. There's no world in which this man has fellow Britons calling him Buck.

It's such a weird adaptive choice to turn the comic's character into a British dandy. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. All right, Patrick. Welcome to a segment I'm calling Let's rename Buck Cashman. And I would like to float to you, Malay, Rubin, a few options. Okay, you ready? Yeah.

I mean, we're keeping cashmen, even though the Brits don't really even say cash, but that's okay. Quidman? Quid, Cashman. Mm-hmm. No. Pound Cashman. Okay. Farthing cashman.

Farthing cashman. Okay. Heapenny Cashman. Tenor, Cashman. Yeah. Tenor I like. Sixpence Cashman. Yeah. And if you want to go a little antiquated and make it sound like a more normal name, you could

do Bob Cashman. Yeah. I don't mind that. I like Pound. You like Pound Cashman. I like Pound Cashman. Because it sounds like an adult entertainment. Because it transitions us nicely in positions as well for Daredevil born again after dark, which is really what I'm hoping season two will be. Steve has suggested Cash Poundman. Cash Pound Man is also very good. And fits. in our new spin-off. Cash-poundment. Okay. With love and respect to farthing cashman who lives in my heart forever, it's going to be

have to be cash poundman going forward. And I'm for it. Cash-poundment it is. Thanks, Patrick. All right. Wow. Great stuff. Great stuff.

Chick-a-cherry cola didn't really last, but cash-pound man might. Joanna, it's time for the Punisher to return. Again. And Matt here in Pound Cashman's little pitter-patter in the halls. Cash Poundman. Cash Poundman. He escapes the hospital. Makes his way.

Hospital gown's still on. This will become important. Back to his apartment where he senses that Frank Castle is waiting for him. And they share just a vintage little exchange, high comedy. Love the repartee between these two always. Frank says, you know, you're a wall-to-wall asshole. Power goes out. you got nothing to make a goddamn pot of coffee in this house.

To which Matt replies, well, not everyone lives in a fallout shelter, Frank. Is that a new costume? What do they call you now? Nightgown, man? What about you? After shaving a haircut? That all for me?

No, it's not, Matt. It's for Karen. Though... The beard of the long hair. He doesn't know. He doesn't know what it does to people. Okay. Someone who goes by at Radar Senses on Twitter,

with an excellent screen grab of Matt walking down the hallway in his Oswald gown, wrote, do we think Matt walked or parkored all the way home from the hospital with his ass hanging out? And then someone who goes by at Even Derek said, That's Hell's Kitchen's Ass. And I just want to applaud that's Hell's Kitchen at Cush's As from Evan, probably Even Derek on Twitter. When Mac got up to suit up later and

Frank said, you're not going to do it with your ass hanging out, and Matt gave him the finger in the running for my favorite moment of the season. Just sensational. How do you think Matt got home? It's a great question. It's a great question. Couldn't, like, grab a robe? Don't they have robes, like, thin blue robes at the hospital? Something like that. You know, maybe just like tidal will not. There's a blackout. Steal some scrubs? The looting's about to begin. Yeah, scrubs would have been good. Steal some scrubs from Dr. Whitaker over on the pit. He's always going through scrubs as a pit reference. Okay. I can't wait to watch The Pit. I still haven't started.

I'm really excited to dive in. Because then you can listen to your favorite podcast that watch and their incredible interview with Noah Wiley. Oh, my God. What a get. He was at the office. Can't believe I missed it. I mean, speaking of a beard and some hair.

No. Noah Wiley. My goodness. Robbie. Dr. Robbie. Bad baby. He's, Dr. Robbie Rubinovich. You're going to really love him.

Malawi Rubin. Wow. I did not know that that was his last name. It's Rabinovich. Oh, my goodness. Okay. That's, whew,

I'll be amending my weekend plans. Great. Fuck you and or rewatch. I would never say that. No. No, no. No. Joe. Matt says to Franklin,

I thought, I thought this wasn't your fight, right? That's where we left it when we last gathered in your fallout shelter and you threw a mug of water at me. In that weird scene that they, where do you think that scene would have gone? If they originally shot it to,

Show up elsewhere. Where was it showing up? That's a great question. Like in last week's episode? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe, yeah. Or like the one before. Yeah.

So give Frank an episode to shave and get a haircut. Slap on some episodes. So that he's ready for Karen. Frank's still not sure, right? Even inside of this episode, he's going to go on a little journey with this with what his decisions and steps are going to be. But he says, I made a promise. I made a promise that I'd get you out alive. That's because of Karen, as we will soon find out, absolutely wonderful.

stuff. And then it's time for that really horrifying battle that we described all of the blood, all of the violence. Frank's like, fan full of shipbags, if they come up here, I'm not playing paddy cake with these fanboys. And this is, as always, the eternal debate between Frank and Matt. Frank has one approach and it's a lethal approach. And Matt does not want that and implores him multiple types in this conflict. Can I say? Not to do it. How much I hate. when this happens. So, like, hmm,

we have the fight. Yeah. I don't mean to yada yada through this. I mean, go blow by boat. But like, Cole is hanging out,

pin, you know, wrist pin to the wall. They find the bullet, the casing with the punisher. He's the one who killed Hector. But Matt's like,

we're not killing him. That's not who I am. It's not happening. There's like nine other dead bodies in the room. And I really hate it when like, a bunch of people have died and we're like,

no, but Matt's like, I'm holding the line at the one who we identify as being the worst. He's the one I'm going to make sure we don't kill. I really hate that. I mean, Frank kind of makes the same point, right? When he turns to the other guy and fires? Like, what about that guy?

What about him? Yeah. God. I have a question. Yeah. And you're much more of a Frank Castle connoisseur than I am. Did he always grunt like that in his fight scenes in other appearances? I think he's been a gravelly grunter.

at his core for for some time. I was say he was taking a lot of like close range. I mean, later with the task force, they say, you know, non-lethal's. Yeah. But still, he's taking like kind of concussive level force off of his torso. And, you know, he gets a pretty gnarly neck wound in this stretch. It was like almost. It was exerting himself.

Cash Poundman territory, the like the grunt sounds that were coming out of. This is the American Gigolo. Great. I mean. Shout out showtime. Shout out of the show that literally only you and Bill watched. But we did. But two people watched it.

And it was us. And it was us. Anything else about the Cole Hector reveal or the arguing between Matt and Frank or the violence of this exchange before the grenade comes in to blow up our least favorite apartment? Here's to new living quarters from Matt Murlock in season two. Buy Heather, buy apartment. Let's go back to Hell's Kitchen. You know what did make me sad thinking about this, though? The little foggy card.

Don't worry. He had it in his Daredevil costume pocket. Was it in the hospital gown? Was it in the crack of his ass? He grabbed it. He grabbed on his way up to the crack. Okay. He grabbed it on his way up to the room.

The creepy ass like, always so many places to keep. fit. I don't know. Okay. Oh, God. I listen to Dave says, a long time, listener, big fan, thanks Dave. He says,

I was watching the Daredal finale and saw a great subtitle while Frank was doing what Frank does. Disney Plus gave us, quote, flesh squelching and immediately made me think of your recurring Netflix subtitles,

but Dave was demanding we bring back the Netflix subtitle segment back. I do miss those. Those are fun. The Last of Us is a great time to bring it back. So. Ooh. It's a great call, Dave.

Perhaps you will hear it soon from us, but yes. Flesh squelching. Squelching. Whatly, let's say. The Frank Castle special. All right. Oh, God. Let's hear it.

Molly, let's hear it for your favorite character on television. Let me just be very, very real with you. Yeah. They jump out of the, off the balcony. They escape the grenade. They have a cute little like, you're an asshole I know moment. And then a car pulls up. The headlights bathe our screen.

And out steps Karen Page. Yeah. They both look at her. And then Matt, as we will later understand, hearing Frank's heartbeat turns and looks at Frank. And I felt so alive and happy and understood watching this. Yeah. Not only because of what you said at the beginning. I love a love triangle.

And there were, when we get to the next, like the next scene at Frank's shelter at his lair, the way that in various moments, Matt and Frank both eat, they each feel like the third wheel. They each feel like the interloper in something very private and like, it's so good. It's real with the other two. But like beyond that, which is very charged and powerful and important, everything that happened with Frank and Karen and Matt in this episode took us back to a place of like they, understand why the characters are important to each other and to us. And it just felt like we were watching the show that we thought we were going to get to watch. And it felt right and good. Yeah. That was so happy. Absolutely. The way that like, Karen holds Matt's history. And I understand

it like the idea of born again, the idea of Matt pretending to be someone else pretending to be foggy inside of the season conceptually is interesting. Like conceptually is interesting. Yeah. In practice, surrounding him with Cherry who kind of pretends. to know him, you know, and Kirsten, like, again, I hate to, like, keep drumming this. It just, like, never worked. The way that just, like, a look from Karen works. And, you know, a look from Frank works. And so the three of them together.

And then to put this love triangle, which is existed and not exist in from previous content, you know, like, Karen and Frank have this, like... There's always been a vibe. A vibe, but it was never. like Frank has been yearning for Karen. That's not really a, you know, a thing. And then, like, Matt and Karen were floored at the beginning of the season, but also, like, famously he didn't go up. He didn't.

Yeah, I mean, like, Matt and Karen has been like a, you know, there was Electra. There was this, that, the other thing. So it's not like they're, like, the OTP. But to put this dynamic together, to put Frank and Matt, because the, the, the, the, Frank and Karen stuff in season two of Daredevil, leaving aside the Punisher show, in season two, Daredevil, was largely Matt was absent fucking around with Electra. So, like, we didn't really get the three of them together to view this dynamic. And so the Frank and Matt dark mirror aspect and then Karen feeling a pull from both of them is great storytelling.

It's fantastic. A love triangle always works. Jesus, great stuff. Love it. I hope this is very present in season two. It should be the story of season two. I agree. While we also.

This and Dex apartment shopping. Dex Apartments. Okay. You're three priorities. Number one, love triangle. More I heard your hearts. Number two. Dex.

My window guy will be there momentarily. She's got a pain guy. She said it. And number three, let's go to church. Let's get our ass to church. We have to. Just hearing that. the end of this episode, invoke, like, God and when he thought God was punishing him.

And then what he thought his purpose was was like, okay, it's a nugget. Yeah. And Karen's like, I'll play Father Lantham if you need me to. I'll do it. Karen's like, what can't I do here at the end of the show as it turns out? Yeah, it's incredible. Okay, we do have to expand that list, though. Three is not enough. We have to go, I think, at least to four and probably to five, because we have to make room for, come on. I mean, we have to make room for Buck and Blake. Sorry, pound cash.

Cash, poundman. Struggling with it. It didn't lock into place for me the way I wanted it to. Obviously, we need time for our beautiful, brutal boys there. Not to be confused with the bruce boys. You just looped Sean Fennessey in with... I don't know that there's any looping Sean into... Cash Poundman and Daniel Blake.

Born again. And then, you know, we will want... We'll certainly want some Vanessa. Vanessa. And Fisk, of course. But that sounds like a great season two to me. Yeah. And Heather, you're not invited.

Sorry. Foggy back from the dead question mark. Do you think that's going to happen? Do you want that to happen? Part of me doesn't. Part of me doesn't. I think on the one hand, it is such cheap storytelling if they say, psych, he's not dead. Yeah.

When he was killed for such. shock value and all his other stuff like that. On the other hand, it will be a better show if he's in it. So, you know. It's tough. It's tough. Hopefully we can get him in some form. Oh, flashbacks for sure.

I mean, I think they've said that he is in the second season. So, like, flashbacks at the very least. Great. We love a foggy mat flashback. But, yeah, I mean, Eldon Henson, like, I love you. I want you to be employed if you, if they, have to, you know I hate a resurrection and a fake out death, I hate it. This is one case where I'm like, it would be better for the show in the end. We'd make our base. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Before we can make our way toward everybody really declaring that they need an army. Yeah. We got to clean up. We got to clean up. We got to stitch up. It means we're going to Frank's bunker. So the first dynamic that we get is Frank over watching. Matt and Karen in a mirror. I mean, stitching up his wound. And this moment between Matt and Karen, just tell me everything that you thought and felt watching this show because it's the first time. As we understand it, it's the first time they've seen each other or were interaction spoken

since that moment of parting of Karen passing over the devil horn for Matt to finger at Dex's sentencing. Like, they're back together and how did it feel? Electric, honestly. The electric here, enhanced by, as always, a shirtless Charlie Cox being stitched up by someone, like, it's a tried and true formula. It will always work. It's just like the one real note on the episode that when he said, has it look, and she said, well, you've been prettier. It's like, no, he hasn't.

But also, not to like skip, you know, we won't go there, but like the shot of the two of them, Yeah. Sitting in the bar, like backlit by the light, like sitting so close and sort of hunched forward at each other, that was also incredibly electric. So, like, yeah, I loved this. I loved all of this. And I loved the, I love the grimy setting of Frank's bunker, the, like, fucking bat-shit yarn wall that he's got there. There was a lot of stuff on there. He was using every square inch.

Yeah. Like, his, I don't know if they, you know, have Mike. in New York City, but I think they're all out of red yard. I think he's got it all covered. So, yeah, the griminess of the setting. Again, I think we're getting closer and closer to the grime and the grit and the darkness of the original series that I like. And I felt that in this setup here.

Yeah. The blackout was like nice cover to just make the entire episode actually quite dark. When the lights went on the next morning, I was like, fuck. Yeah, yeah. Let's, okay, let's say that was intentional. All season, we've been in the day. And I'm like, where's my Dirtable Set at night? And then at the end, we get the blackout.

And then it's like Dairdable set at night again. Great. I love that. That's what it should be. No, I loved this. I thought it was amazing. And then Frank crunches some pills and I got so disturbed by it, you know. Karen kind of moves over to him because he gets up.

She's like, are you, you know, how are you doing? Can I take a look? That's when we get the great nothing in the world. Like a cup of coffee can't fix. And then he will offer Matt the cup at Mac. We'll say got oat milk, just iconic all around, wonderful stuff. But then Matt, like the way the camera looks at Matt in this moment and he's in the background and he's sitting and he's watching them and he'll mention it. He'll bring up to Karen later their heartbeats and what he can clearly feel and sense between them.

I thought that look on Karen's face, just that the expression as she looked at Frank and smiled was like so charged and powerful. I just loved absolutely every part of this. And then as is often the case with these characters, we move from this. state of real connection and depth of history and affection and longing and active lust into, let me tell you, I am disappointed in you. And that's like really the great magic of these dynamics. You know, like Matt and Karen start game planning right away. Matt's filling Karen in on what happened. Vanessa, the hit, motion to dismiss. She's like, dude, files and storage. Let me be your eyes. Oh, Karen.

Will you be my eyes? Karen's like, guess what I know my way around? A file box. Guess where I spent 85% of my time in the original Dary Nable series in a file room. So I got this. Great stuff. Absolutely wonderful. But Frank's not going to go with, right?

He says the inspector gadget bullshit isn't for him. And Karen just says, flat out, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you don't care. and the reply that he makes is specifically about her. I do care, right? You called me, you asked me a favor, and I did it. I thought that was like the closest he had come to just admitting how he feels. She's like, yeah, he's like, hey, Karen, I love you.

And she's like, yeah, I know. You do. And then she walks out and then he says, be safe. I know after the door shut. In a way that she can't hear. But Matt Murdoch can. I'm just saying. Matt certainly heard that.

Oh. Love these guys. Love them. So good. Free port reveal. We already talked about a lot of this. Okay. Blake and the council and then the storage locker.

On the heart, right? Yeah. Matt says what? Karen says you sound like you're jealous. Matt says, you know, back at his place, I heard your heart beats. And she says, God, that's really not fair. You heard his too? This was beating fast too?

And he's like, oh yeah. She's like, it's just adrenaline, I'm sure. You hear mine when I saw you. Yeah? Yeah. Adrenaline, I'm sure. Right. Like, great, great shit.

Yeah. Our listener Molly wrote in with something that I can just assure Molly and anyone listening was already in my notes. Molly wrote, after years of mostly silence, the Karen and Frank Shippers on Tumblr were nothing short of jubilant that the other night, This image made me cackle had to share with you guys due to the Lestat crossover. And it's a screen grab. It says like Karen says something, something, something.

And Matt, and it's just an image of Lestat from interview the vampire going, I heard your hearts dancing with you. But I 100% wrote in my notes, I heard your hearts dancing. It's a real surrealistat moment for Matt Murdoch. Two characters I didn't think had to. much in common, but here we are. Well, here we are. This is truly a Joe moment.

My goodness. It's like, a crossover you deserve. It is. Truly. And then we get the Avacados at Law sign. I found this almost unbearable. It moved me so deeply.

It was so beautiful. I liked this moment. It was a little, it was ever so slightly clunky because I feel like it was like, let's explain this for people who didn't watch the original series. Yeah, Karen being like,

I never really got it. Never asked on Avikato's a law. Yeah. No, Karen. But, you know, you know that Nelson v. Murdoch is like one of my favorite episodes of the show. And I just got really emotional about it. Just the look on Matt's face, just the, I don't know, like a moment for him to just not be subsumed by his grief, but to smile and reflection and remembrance, like to like know a moment of joy in thinking back on his friend. It felt like maybe the first time in a long time since he had been able to do that.

Yeah. Think about like... The way Karen took his hand and like a little bridge. The like, you know, the card that he's had is like this just really thin connection or trying to explain who Foggy was to Heather. Like it's just like not the same as being with Karen who loved Foggy as much as he did. And yeah, it's beautiful. Like you said, they just, they actually know each other. And they had plenty of moments where they didn't know something about each other.

And that was the source of great tension. but there are people who have worked through a lot of that and have just such a depth of history and shared experience. It's like it's just, you know, we talk. I think what you said earlier I agree with, and we talked about this a lot, obviously, at the beginning of the season. I am still interested in, like, new relationships

and what it means as you go through your life to have to try to build something new with someone else. But if you're trying to put it in place of this other thing that we cherished, like, it's really a sin, I think. So it was just to have the authentic article here. Boy, did it feel right and good. You know, a little thing that I really loved in this exchange, we think back to that conversation between them on the bench at Dexas sentencing.

And the way, because here, Matt's like, I can't believe I didn't look. I didn't, you know, and Karen let them off the hook. She's like, we were all hurting. And, you know, the way that that idea back at the beginning of the season was kind of like a cudgel to wield against him. Like condemnation. Yeah. Yeah, I was in pain too and you weren't there for me. Like, you weren't the only one who was going through something.

But here she reminds him of their shared herd as a balm, like a way to say it's okay. We don't all have to be perfect all the time. I thought that really showed the progress of where they were. Yeah, it feels so right to me that like a year, it's been a year, right? Like a year of space and silence, you can find, you know, just empathy. You can just like let go of the resentments. and find empathy for the other person, it feels really right to me.

And also just like something happens that tests your own conviction, right? Like Matt was in peril and Karen knew she wanted to make sure he was okay. But period, right? And sometimes you need those moments of clarity. Not that she ever would have not wanted Matt to be okay, but it's like that was just the driving force.

I will call Frank. I will send him to Matt. And meanwhile, Heather's like Matt's in peril. I'm kind of done here. He said the wrong name. Got it done here. Moment of clarity for Heather as well, you know? Oh, boy.

Great stuff. They piece together everything about the Freeport and Red Hook and start to plot their next steps. Meanwhile, Frank is plotting his next steps too because he didn't just say, stay safe and then have a cup of coffee and go about his day. He listened to the walkie-talkie that he stole and heard them talk about the blonde about Karen and then he's like, time to go. Time to act. Frank. And he seeks out the task force, Joe, the fanboys. He heard them talk about the location of where they were going to meet rendezvous one.

And he goes, the way that they responded to his appearance. Oh, shit. It's actually him. Frank Castle. It's the Punisher. And then we get another just unbelievably violence, violence sequence of Frank killing these ton of people. This is where the real groin geyser happened. I just want to make it clear in case people go back and scrub through the footage.

And they're like, where was it? It was here. Coming up a ramp. Yes. It was come up a ramp. The fanboy was coming down the ramp and then the groin geyser. It's a lot. It's a lot.

We got an axe to the face here. Did you think of Lottie? Do you think of... I'm always thinking about Lottie. I think you know that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So this whole interaction with Powell, I think this is, I think Powell has been a good use.

I feel like I understand. And Powell better than Cherry. Like, it's just been a weird season of television. But Powell as this sort of b-string villain and his interaction with Frank makes a really works for me. Like, it really, really worked. This whole thing. And this whole entire ACAB, fuck the cops who, you know, think Pudisher, the Pudisher logo exemplifies what they do and whatever. You know, it's great for the show to interact with that.

So, yeah, I totally agree. I thought this scene, so this is like this Powell Punisher stretch and the Fiske Gallo stretch are intercut with each other. The, I mean, they were both disturbing in different ways. But I agree. I thought the Powell Punisher scene was really riveting. And the way, like the emotion in Frank's voice. as he's saying to them, like, you don't understand the thing that you have co-opted at all. Admire me, you think you know my pain, you think you know my loss.

Like, I got to chill from that. It's just, it was fantastic. And then he just went into full Sue from Survivor, Season 1, Final Tribal mode. I do know this reference. I won't fucking piss on you if you were on fire. You got that? That's for you. Interview with vampires for me,

Survivor is for you. And that's why we're a dream team. So true. Gallo, Fisk, we're just having the mountain and the viper here in a daredevil episode. What do you want to say about this?

The second that the gallo was brought to a space covered him. Oh. Plastic rapids. The second he got in a car. It's a bad sign. got a car and it wasn't his usual driver. No?

The second he said, I went home sick. The second he said, I'm going to Albany tomorrow. I'm like, go now is what I would say to you, my friend. Yeah, exactly. Tough stuff. My question for you is, how did you read the reaction of people in the room? Yeah. The people who are watching this happen.

How did that read to you? So I was eager to discuss this with you as well because I'm curious what I'm curious about the logic, like the play from Fisk here, because he's obviously trying to prove a point to everyone. Like to gallow in the final moments, it's you were never a man of the people. You never cared about the rank and file. Up in the high rise drinking your orange wine. Exactly. Oh my God.

Daniel Blake, I was thinking multiple times in this episode. He's got so many like Os Cobb vibes to me. like he really belongs in Penguin. I hope he makes his way to Penguin season two somehow. It seems to me, like even though Fiske is trying to show this new personal army, hey, I'm not only do I care about you, I'm right there literally with you. I want to get my hands as dirty as anyone in order to do this thing, to protect this thing, to build this thing, to tell myself and you that I'm doing all of that.

I thought that they seemed very disturbed by what they were witnessing. And, like, perhaps this was a miscalculation on his part. I also think that this is just kind of stupid. There's so many witnesses. Yeah, exactly. Like a ritual that's meant to maybe solidify and cement allegiance ends up leaving you vulnerable. And that feels foolish to me.

But I guess he's just banking on the fact that the threat, it's not only show them what you're made of, it's and imply what will happen if they stray, and he's banking on that. I guess so. This was a very gross television scene. It was disgusting. I got to say, before even the squashing of the head, the sounds, like of the compressing bones. Yeah. Same thing happened.

It's a note for me. Same thing happened with the Mountain and the Viper. There's a lot of, like, screaming and struggling before the pop, you know? Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Matt and Karen. Fortune of plan, they go to Red Hook, crawling with task force. And Karen just implores Matt not to do it.

Don't be foolish. It'll be Josie's all over again. I love the way she put this. Like, you'll either die or you will kill. It's not just about the mortal peril you would be in. It's about the thing you might be moved to do to someone else that you don't want to do. I love that they rock up here. And, like, for all we, like, joke about the fact that, like, Matt heals faster than he should.

He literally, like, just got shot. And he, like, they roll up there and they're like, he's like, ugh. That's a lot of pressure on the old shoulder. He's like, ugh. She's like, maybe not today. Like, you're hurt. Whenever anyone is on a slightly sort of rocky advantage looking and there's like a bunch of troops. Yeah.

It's always a Wizard of Oz moment for me. So I was thinking about that. But, yeah, it's. Did you think that? and should have said, like, we have the high ground and just gone forward or no? Did you think this was the right call? It's over task force. We have the high ground.

You underestimate our power. But I like this invocation, you know, like we get a couple invocations inside of this episode of, and similar to like last week's episode when Gallo and Beebe had that conversation about her uncle, this is like a question we had had. We're like, does the show even know that Beebe's uncle was killed by Fisk? And, like, in these last two episodes, they're answering a lot of these questions of, like, does the show even know about Agent Adim? Like, all this sort of stuff like that. And so, Karen invoking the Thousand Sons, which is such an impactful daredevil moment.

Again, it's just, like, really tying the tapestry together between the two shows in a way that I really value. So, yeah. I totally agree. And I think this scene also, obviously, in addition to forging that. a thread to the past, open a door to the future because Matt's like, you're right. I'm not going to actor, Ashley, but I do believe that we can beat him. I do believe that we can win. We need an army of our own.

I felt pretty sure as a trained viewer of the MCU that we would then be seeing any number of characters, but like specifically Luke Cage and or Jessica Jones in the stinger of this episode. And that did not happen. Instead, we got... Anthony! Kirsten. Well, Anthony.

But we got Kirsten and Cherry and Josie and that one cop lady from the bank episode and some other cop, like two other cop ladies. And that's our army right now. And I'm saying, it's like, Pup. It's not looking great. It's not looking great. Just still figuring out the details before? It's not, yeah. Season two, we're in the paperwork era.

Yeah, we're working on the contracts. Yeah. That's what it felt like, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Oh, man. Good stuff. Kristen Ritter's like, fuck, you pay me, okay? I'm not getting back into the leather and knitwear for nothing.

I mean, pay me. Totally fair. I am obviously thrilled by what this promises, though, which is exactly that that Luke Cage and Jessica Jones will be back. Will you take Danny Rand? That is a more complex one. Not you, Danny. That is a more complex one. Joe, we end the episode on these like dueling deckings.

declarations of intent. We have the Fisk pledge. The lights have gone back on in the morning. He has invited Heather to be his commissioner of mental health. She accepts gladly disturbing stuff. Very disappointed in Heather. And then Fisk addresses the same. Before he does. Yeah. And she was like, I rewound it like five times to watch she'll go, sir, sir, and Daniel physically push the serve back. Um, sir, um, sir, excuse me. But do you think she was just going to be like, you should be sitting down rather than standing and leering and leaning?

Or was she going to be like, by the way, are we sure this is the right thing to do? She has not had a shower. And so she's like, because, sorry, correct my memory, she wasn't at the Gallo head popping, right? Mm-mm. Yeah. So when he says Gallo has left the city, she gets this look at her face like, oh. So I feel like her, excuse me, sir, was going to be like, how did that Gallo thing wrap out of your time? I meant to ask.

Gallo? Did we send her to the Caymans? How's he doing? Oh, my God. Sheila. Fisk just, you know, we've been talking about it all seasons. He goes fully into the devil's reign, like vigilanteism is outlawed. Institutes martial law.

Curfew at eight. Lies about everything that happened the night before, right? uses the attempt on his life to say the sabotaging of the grid, Gallo abandoned you in your moment of need, all of it. By the way, he claims to love New York City, but curfew at eight means no more theater in New York. No more nights at the bar? Or shuddering Broadway? You've gone too far, Wilson Fisk. Good thing for you. You just got that tripping. You came for literally everyone's rights and I said nothing. But then you came for musicals and it was too late. Oh, my God.

Marshallah. Here we go. God. I love New York. I love New York. Disturbing stuff, obviously. Matt's pledge. He's doing what we've really wanted all season, which is like processing what he's been going through.

And of course, he's doing it with Karen. Talking about God. Talking about his feelings. Talking about his insecurities and the things he fears about himself. And he's doing it with Karen, a person who knows him, a person he trusts, a person he loves. A person who's not been afraid over the years to call him out on his bullshit. it. And it was beautiful. It was wonderful. I was like the only thing that's missing from the scene is him being like, and I probably

shouldn't have just pulled out the white tiger mask without talking to the next to the matter first. Otherwise, it was perfect. 9.9 out of 10. 0.1 notes. Karen, did you ever talk about the foggy that I'm really a shitty lawyer? Dude. That wasn't great. Oh, my God. I'm glad you said that. That's really what I wanted to do the entire pod with you about, which is like how this entire plot ended up hinging on the fact that Foggy's just a really good lawyer, and that's a bad one. It's like, wow, Foggy found out this whole thing because he's a great lawyer. Oh, Foggy. Good legacy.

So, little Maddie Murdoch. Recast as he had to be because original O.G. Little Maddie is like 90 now. Probably 40. But Little Maddie Murdoch staring out the stained glass window talking about faith is like the closest we get to going to church, right? Needed it. I needed it. I just need to read this email we got from our listener. Lally.

Be praying for fisting gloves in prayer and service to the divine in season two. Looking forward to all your thoughts, feelings, and reaction to this episode. Lally, thank you so much for understanding what House of R is about. We're like, let's get ourselves to church, but let's put on the fisting gloves before we go. And that's, yeah. Not the first mention of fisting gloves on this season of coverage. That's why, that's why, Lolly wrote that in the email. It's just a continuing conversation week after week.

It's a callback to our previous Facing Lov combo. How many people do you think learned something important in that moment in the episode 4 through 7 superlative conversation? If you didn't listen. Mews was meaningful. After all. Muse did matter. Muse mattered.

He taught us all so much. The way that Matt moves from reflecting about his youth into like this more present circumstance, the darkness. He says, my mistake was thinking I was immune to the darkness and I let it creep in I let the dark power me. I threw point Dexter off that roof, Karen, I wanted to kill him. Like, the way that he said that Karen, I wanted to kill him. And, you know, it made me think of a couple things from the beginning of the season, but also just the beginning of the show. Like we talked about in our top moments episode when Father Lanham and Matt in season one of the original dare devil series were talking about like the idea of the devil. And do you believe in the devil? And to Matt, it was of course in theory about Fisk. But like also it was about the. inside of himself and the symbol that he would end up adopting. Yeah. So it's always been there with Matt and to have that resurface here.

As active text was very satisfying. And then, of course, in that diner conversation with Fiske and Matt at the beginning of the season, like the way that Matt talked about, the thing that he feared in himself and how it had surfaced, like a line was crossed. I felt that I lost the privilege. And despite the good that I was doing, I was causing damage. So for Karen to, like, hear this. and then use Foggy, whose loss caused this, to say, like, Foggy knew who you were, every part of

you, right? And he loved it all. Whatever you want to call yourself, whatever's behind the mask behind your eyes, that's wrath, that's mercy, that's the dark and the light. He knew all of it, all of it. He knew you. I do, too. Who needs clips when we can have Mallory Rubin's voice roughened with emotion.

reading it for us. Oh my God. That's wrath, that's mercy. So good. The specific use of these biblical words, again, Karen is not someone who like, we would expect to be in sort of this like father,

landham, sister Maggie Grace, like sort of role, but like it's, sorry, I said Sister Maggie Grace. That's not what, Sister Maggie Grace is an actress from Lost. Okay. Anyway. But that's wrath,

that's mercy. I got like, chills. That's wrap, that's mercy. That's the dark and light. He knew all of it, all of it. He read your journal, Shana. He knew you. I do too. Like, it's, it's great. I do you. And, like, she's got her arms clasped around his neck, like heads bowed towards each other. And it's like, it's, it, there is, like, romantic sexual tension between these two. But even, like, that moment, like, you rarely clasp your hands around someone's neck unless you're going to

try to, like, make out with them or something like that. And my personal looks like, But like, but like that's not what that felt like to me. That just felt like a let me like, let's hold each other close and no space between us. Like this, I see you, I know you. Yeah. And you have. The kiss on the far head. Yeah.

And people have not known you all the season. Yes. You've been around these fuckers who don't know you. I know you. It's really good. I thought this was beautiful. I love everything you just said. The wrath and mercy idea, like that's the duality.

It's not just like a mission statement for this episode or this arc. It's like the Matt Murdoch experiences we've been talking about back from our preview pod and why we love the character. My favorite prog rock band, the Matthew Murdoch experience. Oh, God. You know when Fisk said to Matt at the beginning of the season, like it's hard to come to terms with the violent nature, that's the Matt Murdoch's story. is him grappling with that, and he needs help. He needs to be able to sit on the bench outside of the church and talk it through. He needs to have Karen wrap her hands around him and bring him back into the light.

Like, that's part of why the character is so meaningful and impactful. Like, he's so solitary often and feels that he has to be, but, like, really at the end of the day, he needs the people he loves to help him through. And it's just like, it was very important to see that here. I really loved it. And then, like, a lot of – they walk out into the room full of a very – odd mix of people, as you know, and Matt basically does a ADR voiceover to the audience instead of talking to the people in the room. Resist, rebel, rebuilds.

Yeah. It was like Andor season two. Resist Rebell, Rebels, rebuild. Yeah. Great stuff. When he said Rebell, I got really excited for Andor. Me too. It was like Pavlovian.

I literally couldn't help but think about Star Wars. And Radiohead is like, like, what a great few weeks for Radiohead Needle Drop. We got it for Van's. exit from yellow jackets. Everyone's paying Tom York. Tom York's just raking it in and I love that for him. What else about the end of the episode? We already talked about Fisk and Vanessa going through their pen of prisoners.

The prisoners. So Jack's, Jack Duquesne is down there in a cage. Frank Castle's down there in a cage. We think that Artemis's husband, Arthur, is down there in the cage. Do you know where he is? When Leah, in the previous episode, again, Nurse Dana from the pit, can't wait for you to meet Nurse Dana. But, like, yeah, in a previous episode, she's like, have you seen my, she's like, um, best not to offend, King. I don't know, everything's fine.

My, my, my sassy mouth from a few episodes ago is gone along with my husband. I don't know where he is. Is he in the Kamens? I don't know. No, he's in a cage. Yeah. Underground with Jack, by the way, looking great. He was making it work.

ever so slightly ruffled in his finery, but the hair looks great, looking great. I would love a lot more Jack Duquesne in season two. Thank you so much. And Frank Castle's there, but not for long. Because the dumbest guy to ever live, Anthony, Anthony. Anthony from Jersey is like sure Mr. Frank Castle, sir.

I'll shake your fucking hand. I loved this performance from birth. there were so i will say this and i don't want to i don't want to yuck your yum i will say there i think there were a few frank castle lied liabilities earlier in the episode that felt like dialed up to 15 that's why i love it i agree i was just like okay i agree but here when he was trying to be a little smoothie in his cage and using his like chains to hoist himself up so like that i was like this yeah the chain hoist was honestly magical this is great And that's it, Joe.

On to season two of Daredevil Born Again, on to the Punisher special. Who would you rather foolishly approach in a cage? Frank Castle or Jamie Lannister. I guess, I mean, it's not going to go well in either circumstance, but I would probably rather just be strangled and dead. No. Yeah. I just wanted to be over.

I don't want the mangled arm. and the screaming and, you know, everyone in all the pens is watching. So much drama. And then I'm also then probably just still, my neck is snapped after that anyway. Why not just cut right to the point? Okay. You know? You're pro-Lannister.

Team Lister. Okay. Always. Always. I'd love more than anything else. I love that my guy, Dex, made the final montage. That was great. It made me so happy for season two.

Like, that was great. You know, it's, it's getting. I want more decks. More decks. We got most of like, kind of like, you know, the faces we would expect to see, right? Buck, obviously, like, the toasts and the smiles for, for Janice on Visc, Cash Poundman, Daniel Blake, Sheila, really still going through it.

Your beautiful beloved Dex. We see Angela. Hector's niece is here, so more white tiger action to come in season two. When he says, the words he says are like, he was like, blah, blah, it's our city, right? And he says the week and it's on to. And then he says the strong. The strong is over Angela's stage. That was interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. All of us. Heather. Heather, Kierston, Frank, Karen. We see some of the task force members who were shooting looters and then pulling their hats down to pretend they had been mass vigilantes. Great stuff. Good God.

And that's it. So we're heading on to season two. We're going to get the defenders back together. Get the band back together. Is that what you think is certainly going to happen? Definitely going to happen? Yeah. Is there any way in which we get Kamala?

I need that, like, promise of a dinner in Jersey City to bear fruit. Yeah. Now, obviously, she's got other things going on. She's in California. Young Avengers, Champions. Yeah. Yeah. But a little bit of a, oh, I came home and you guys have put a street level team.

of vigilantes together in the face of She'd do a Yelina Belova swing by. A Yelina Belov a swing by. Exactly. Come in, team up, help out. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? How cute

Charlie Cox's Matt Murdoch and Kamala would be, Kamala would be? It was so cute. I hope we get that in season two. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'll probably make the mistake of picking it

really high in the hype draft again. I'm glad to have gone to I'm glad to have revisited Daredevil on Netflix and be reminded how much I loved it. Same. I'm glad that it feels like it's a step in the right direction. A step in the right direction makes us hopeful for things like Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. Like if we are pivoting towards the light, then I will be excited. I'm...

Pet Avengers one. Thunderbolts. Come on. I'm so excited. We'll see. Two weeks. Two weeks away. Wow.

Wow. Wow. Great stuff. We did it. We covered another season of television. We did do it. I guess that would, if we amend our list of season two demands, we had five, we make it a list of six, go back to Hell's Kitchen. That's the last thing. I mean, they're there right now. Stay there. Stay at Josie's. Come on. Rent a flat above Josie's. Hopefully it's got great windows and that's all we ask for. I do. I mean, some stuff went down in the stairwell there. Yeah. It sounds to me like there's some openings in the building. I don't know. I don't have my face. A bit of a triggering place for that to live.

Doesn't seem like not all of those people made it out of that stairwell fight alive. Correct. And so their apartments might be open. Maybe just like half a block away. It's good to get outside and stretch your legs or so I hear. All right, Joe, there's nothing in this world. A good cup of coffee can't fix. And there's nothing in this world potting with you.

Can't fix you the best. I love you. Darling, I feel the same way. Thank you. So it's time to thank everyone. Thank you to today and this season. Steve Allman for producing this podcast. John Richter for all of his work on the video aspect of this podcast.

Thank you today to Oscar de la Luz for helping us out with the video production as well. And of course, as always, to our Juno Ramca Pau for his production supervision and Jomea Denneron for his work on the socials. Until next time. Yeah. We love New York. The fungus loves too. All. Pay off your home. Travel for life.

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