House of R - 'Daredevil: Born Again' Episodes 1 and 2 Deep Dive

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

The Devil of Hell's Kitchen has returned, and it is time to dive deep with Mal and Jo into the two-episode premiere of 'Daredevil: Born Again'! They analyze all of the fights, drama, and the shocking death that kicks off this highly anticipated series, as well as speculate about the logistics of Kingpin's mayoral bid! Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Supervision: Jonathan Frias Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehous are returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

It's hard. It's hard to come to terms with the violent nature. Hating the power as over us. I was raised to believe in grace that we can be touched by the divine and transformed into a better person. So if you say to me that you're a new man, I say fine. But you should know I was also raised to believe in retribution. Retribution. So if you step out of line, I will be there.

Greetings. And welcome to House of Arr, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today. And why don't I just jump right in and ask, what are you looking for in legal representation? It's Joanna Robinson. Hello, I have mounted and also won a mayoral campaign since we started this podcast. That was a zippy one. It's me, the mayor of New York City, Joanna Robbins. That campaign definitely shorter than a typical house of our podcast. Correct.

Joe, we are here today to dive deep into the two-part daredevil, born-again, premiere. These were long episodes. We're going to try to wrap our arms. Hold on to both of those devil's horns, if you know what I mean. I do know what you mean. And I think you do. I do. But first, of course, some,

quick programming reminders. What else is going on? The Verses, they're up already. If people want to see the whole gang together, they can do that on the Ringervis YouTube channel or Spotify. I'm pretty proud of my Versi's performance here because not that it's a competition, but I kind of feel like I got my way a bunch of times. And that felt good. You certainly, you whipped those votes with LaSat in impressive fashion. Thank you. Thank you ever so much. You had commanded the room. Thank you. As usual. I think it was more like Joanna's visiting. Let's be nice to her.

She's in L.A. She's moving here. She's in L.A. While you are here, what else will we be doing? We're going to be talking about Daredevil Born Again episode three next week. Correct. As we had previously mentioned, we will be catching up on Yellow Jackets, episodes five and six together in one podcast.

Yes. Over on The Ringerverse. The Midnight Boys, Pugh, have already dropped, of course, their instant reaction to the Double Daredevil premiere. Wonderful podcast. Great show. ButtonMash will be talking about split fiction tomorrow. And Steve will be joining Ben for that episode.

And I heard Steve describe what split fiction is. And it sounded fascinating. It sounded delightful. Genuinely. It's amazing. Steve did a great job selling it. I agree. Joanna, how can people follow along, whether it's to watch or listen to our podcasts

or just to hear Steve explain more things about games? Thanks so much for asking. What's also true is that you and I are together on the prestige feed, talking about White Lotus. You and I did a rewatchables episode together. Yeah, that's coming soon. That's coming up. There's a lot going on.

There's a lot of Mallory and Joanna at a time. Let's just... I'm judging every second of it. Put it in the reps. Listen, you can follow us. And your podcast or choice. Yes. That's a good thing to do, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

You can subscribe to the YouTube channel or watch us on Spotify. That's right. Both are available to you. You can follow us on the social media platform of your choice. Whatever that might be. Whatever that. That's a you decision. Sure is.

And as always, you can email us, Hobbes and Dragons at e-mail.com. I should say we got some Daredevil emails. All, I was actually surprised to find this out, all of which were kind of negative, which is fine because I have some negative thoughts I care to share about this show. But if you want to defend Daredevil,

if you love Daredevil, you thought it was the best thing you watched this year, this millennia, I don't know. Hobbes and Dragons is dealing out of comp. Defend your show. show. I want to hear the accolades as well as the critiques. The last program reminder is always the same. It's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. What neighborhood are we in? Are we in Hell's Kitchen? Well, we don't get there as much.

No. Becky's Diner closed. We're all sad about it. No more time in the kitchen. It's a hot bummer. I love Hell's Kitchen, truly. The spoiler warning is, obviously, everything that happened in the first two episodes of Daredevil Born Again, anything that has ever happened in the MCU to date, anything that happened in the original three seasons of Netflix's Daredevil, anything maybe that happened elsewhere in the Netflix Daredevil, larger universe, Marvelverse, and some comics canon as well. So basically, if it's ever happened in the comic book universe. To a Matt Murdoch or otherwise, it could come up. Okay. It could come up today. But we have not watched ahead in this season of Born Again, and so we will not be talking about anything that is to come,

because we don't know what's to come. Joanna? A lot of engagement. a lot of depth, a lot of spread, people sharing memes. What if I just did Daniel Blake the whole pod? That would upset me deeply. Let's pod. Let's get to our opening snapshot. Jaunty. On that front, before we do the things we're actually supposed to do, I want to respond

to that great Daniel Blake quote. Have you seen memes coming out of Daredevil Born again? I do not believe that I have been on social media in the last two days since this aired. You've been genuinely. Certainly have not been on Twitter. And even my typical fairly robust Instagram usage has been muted the last couple days. So I can't comment. Steve, have there been Daredevil memes?

Oh, so many. Mainly sad fan cams. Oh, boy. Oh, for fog. Sheesh. That's a bummer. No funny. memes. Just sad fan camps and in memorials. I will remember you playing.

Okay. Let's hit a couple quick table setters in the opening snapshot. The first two prompts here are things we talked about at length in our Daredevil Primer Pod, which we did last week. We had a blast. We went through our 13 in honor of Netflix seasons being 13 episodes. Whose idea was that? I couldn't say. It could have been anyone. Our 13 favorite, respective 13 favorite moments from the original series. Check out that pod. If you haven't yet, it'll be useful context for how we are viewing the new show, our relationship to the characters. In case anybody didn't listen to that pod, though, let's just very quickly refresh on a couple things. One, your relationship to Matt Murdoch to Daredevil, the comics character, the original Netflix series, the glimpses that we've gotten

of Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdoch in the MCU so far. Uh-huh. Tell us. Yeah. I think I kind of surprised you with my level of fervor for Matt Murdoch. I don't think you knew how much I love your favorite. Matt Murdoch. And like maybe my favorite comic book character. Yeah.

Well, Squirrel Girl is up there. You do. That I know. I love Squirrel Girl, but he's up there. You have horror crevice and you love Squirrel Girl on an Ocean Vista. It's true. And then there's always Steve Rodger. You know, it's a crowded field.

but Matt's up there. And so, yeah, loved the original Netflix series. We re-watched all of it. And I think I loved it even more upon rewatch, especially like given the spotty work we've seen since. It's like, wow, we didn't even know how good we had. We knew that season one was a masterpiece when it dropped,

but we didn't even know how good we had it with season two and season three until we saw Secret Invasion, among other things. So... Let it do. Yeah. So speaking of Disney Plus, M, Marvel shows. We talked about how delightful it's been,

and I rewatched their mere minutes. The mere minutes we've gotten of Charlie Cox in Echo, Charlie Cox in Shee Hulk, especially wonderful, all of that. No Way Home. No Way Home. All of those appearances have been delightful. And as I said in our previous pod,

I think the handling of Wilson Fiske has been more of a mixed bag. Yes. Yes. Does that answer all your questions? Absolutely. If you'd like to hear more about Joanna's experience with the past of versions of Matt Murdoch and Daredevil, listen to that podcast. We had a blast. I also love Matt Murdoch and I love Daredevil.

I love Daredevil stories. I loved the Netflix show. We feel very similarly about it. I think season one is an all-timer. And I quite enjoy my time. Though the mileage varies, of course, the many long episodes. And in seasons two and three, there's a lot there that I love. And I really genuinely had, like, a great time revisiting that and revisiting it with you.

That was super fun. I've also loved the glimpses of Matt so far in the MCU. It felt like this also, like, a delicate balancing act of promising and winking and ensuring us that our patients would be rewarded without, like, frankly, doing, like, where we are with the X-Men. Like, yeah, we get it. The X-Men are coming. Can they come? Yeah. You know? I thought the mat, the little doses of Matt were dispensed. Exactly. Responsibly. And, of course, agree on Fisk. It was like such a thrill and sent me into a euphoric state to know that he was going to be back in our lives. And there was a lot of like thinking face emoji stuff in response to what we actually got. I think especially, and this is a really good like sort of writ large our approach to talking about these two episodes. They did not yet know exactly.

Vincent Donofrio is going out there saying like, I'm the Netflix fisk. And then people of normal being like, he's not the Netflix fisk. And so. Confusing moment on the internet. This very deeply confusing. Are we watching the continuation of a character we spent time with or we're watching a soft restart with character that we spent time with? But an actor we already know is really confusing. And also like to try to understand the concept.

continuity of that of like how we go from Daredevil season three finale to everything we see leading up, including where we find him here. Yes. And certainly some of the scenes that we discussed in the first two episodes, I think we will have some, wait, what's the answer to Thing X? Questions that are on our mind about what transpired in the missing time. In terms of that, is this going to be a continuation question? Now we know it is. That doesn't mean every aspect. of the plot is clearly clicking into place or aligning. But the intention is that this is a, as the born again title indicates, in addition to obviously being a tie to the iconic comics run, a revival and a continuation of the Netflix property, those characters were not in a different part of the multiverse. These are our guys and we're back with them. Can I ask you a quick question about our rewatch? We never dislike doing homework. We love homework here at House of Our. We love a re-watch, a reread, however crunched they sometimes may be. Okay? Is there any part of you, though?

And I know, I mean, we haven't even gotten to big picture thoughts, but I know that you enjoyed these episodes a bit more than I did. Yeah. Is there any part of you that wonders, would I have enjoyed this even more? I was going to ask you this. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Because I assume I know the answer to your question, which is that if you had not watched those three seasons, you maybe would have liked us a bit more? Yeah, I liked it a bit more. I think so. Yeah, yeah. I think that's possible. I'm not feeling that way, I will say I'm glad ultimately that I rewatch the show and I watch us because it was fun. And I think some of the refreshers on, you know, because that show ended, I mean, it began

a decade ago and it ended almost a decade ago. You know, it's seven, eight years. That show ended in 2018. What year was that? 2025. It's been a, it has been a minute. So, you know, I was really glad to just immerse fully in Matt's essence in the substance of those relationships. I think frankly, again, full spoilers. You were warned already. You're being warned again. I, I, we'll talk, we'll go through all of the feelings and responses to foggy. This is just like one element of it. I have plenty of other thoughts on it and I know you do as well. I actually weirdly think it made it easier for me.

Like if I had not revisited. Have you not spent 39 hours with, with, with, seven years to be back with Foggy. And then he had been killed in the first episode. I think I would have been genuinely outraged. And I think there's plenty of, plenty of rage in the brew of emotional response, no matter what. But I think that actually made it a little bit easier for me. In terms of the, like, tail of the tape head-to-head comparing, I, I'm going to try to be patient, of course, the cross of the season with, like, whether it feels like this show is able to, not replicate or mirror or match every single emotional thematic aesthetic aspect of the Netflix show,

but whether it feels like it earned, frankly, and deserves to carry that continuation and revival label, these first two episodes and now we're kind of, well, let's just bleed right into our like opening thoughts on this. And also maybe like if you could provide a little context for folks when you're sharing your opening thoughts on the, um, the reworking that the series went through because obviously that's important to hit here. That feels more. more keen to me in the first two episodes, just the stitching together of these two different creative visions, then the, how does this match with the past? In a way that I might not feel at the end, I might say, no, like, this feels too out of sync with the past to be a continuation,

but I'm almost like, I don't even know yet because it's so clearly in the first two episodes, two shows that are trying to merge into one. Tell us about the reworking that the series went through and tell us how you felt about these first two episodes. First and foremost, the title Daredevil Born Again. Yes, ma'am. Means, as did Spider-Man Homecoming, means a bunch of different things. This is a soft reboot.

The softness varies upon how they recut this. But this is a soft reboot of Daredevil. This is Daredevil. Come to Disney. Come from Netflix to Disney, blah, blah. And then also there is a famous comic run called Born Again from Frank Miller and David Moosecelli. A lot of the stuff that happens in that comic run was used in season three.

of Dirt of Whole Netflix, so we don't anticipate... Right down to the taxi crashing into the river. Yeah, so we don't anticipate that there will be a ton of DNA shared between, as is often the case with Marvel and the MCU, like a ton of... This isn't a direct adaptation. The current showrunner is Dario Scott de Pane. I'm going to make his... Look at you. I make it really Italian.

Yeah. If your name's Dario, I feel like you are leaning into the attention. Or you're in Game of Thrones. Dario, Scar de Pane. And then director is Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead. So those are the current, that's the current creative team. And that's who's working on season two currently. And we should say that Dario, Skada Pane,

ran the Punisher TV show. And Benson and Moorhead, we know from Moona. And then also they worked on Loki season two. So that's like, in terms of my confidence in them, as a creative team. It's not like they were like, okay, this wasn't working. So we got Steve Tonight in or we got Eric Olison in, like all the people who were running the original Daredevil. They got these other people in. And so like the Punisher, how did you feel about the Punisher TV show? I actually really liked the first season. Okay. Yeah. As you know, I just love John Burntable. And I find Frank to be such a fascinating character. I'm so curious to see how he's deployed in this season, especially after some of the Punisher Easter eggs. that we got in these first two episodes. I'm curious how much... Less high on the second season.

I'm curious how much this is going to lean Punisher the further we go into the season. Is this going to feel like more of a Punisher show? Well, and they have announced that they're doing the Punisher special. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know. You think Figey's just been listening to CR do Wayne Jenkins on the rewatchables

and he's like, I know what we need to give the people. It's clear what they want. Yeah. And what I heard is that on the days that John Bernthal was a little tired. They just called Sierra to do some growly voiceover. You imagine. It would be a true delight. And then Moon Night and Loki Season 2, Moon Night Mixed Bag.

Loki Season 2, obviously we quite like, you know, so. So originally it was Matt Corman and Chris Ord were the original Creative Forces on an 18-episode season. Now we're getting two nine-episode seasons. So very different. They started in 2022. Yeah. Jesus. Several years ago.

Boy. And then there was the writer's strike, and they looked at the tape. People at Marvel looked at the tape and they were like, oh, no. This is not what we want to do. And so instead of doing a clean break, we're doing a new thing kind of show. That's when they brought in Deborah Ann Wall to play Karen Page. That's when we get some foggy in the mix. Some a little bit of foggy in the mix. That's when we get, I think, a bit of foggy in the mix. that's when we get, I think, a bit more Wilson Bethel. I think we get as I got Dex. And then they had recast the role of Vanessa, and they brought back the original actress who played Vanessa. So a lot of the scenes were, like specifically the therapy scene when they're sitting on complete opposite ends of the couch. As far away as you could possibly be from your spouse on the couch. Been there.

A digital insert sort of situation. So those are some of the scenes. This is originally meant to be more of like a case of the weak legal procedural kind of thing. And so a lot of what's happening in this first two episodes is an attempt to keep as much of the original as they can intact. And there's plenty of that still in the mix. They didn't toss it out. But tried to round the corners on it. So I think as I understand it, the original intent was Foggy is dead and Karen is gone.

but that all happened off screen. And also, like, it happened before. So we would hear, oh, my partner, Foggy, he died, or my associate Karen, she moved to San Francisco. Killing Foggy in the first scene, very painful. Telling us that Foggy had died, I actually think there would have been, like, riots. Yeah.

I really agree. And so we should say on these two episodes, Episode one, Heaven's Half Hour, Episode Two, Optics. Yeah. The first episode here is directed by Morhead and Benson and written by Dario. The second, directed by Michael Quista. Questa.

Questa. And written by Corman and Ord. But it didn't feel like a clean, oh, this is the new and this is the old inside of both of them. It's a mix of the two. Also know, Joanna, that these two episodes were quite long. Quite long. The first episode was one true, full,

blue hour and the second was 50 minutes and the credits were way shorter than Marvel credits typically are. So that's the runtime. Like the first episode was 55 minutes of TV. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I want to ask you what you thought of the episodes. I will say really quickly for me. Obviously, like I'm quite mixed on them. Yes. I am ready to, I want this to be great. Yeah. And I want to enjoy it. So I am keeping myself open for the rest of the season, obviously. I understand the juggling act they're doing trying to meld these two shows together. I was reminded of one of the moments from the original run that we talked about in our 13 moments was this tapestry speech, how like we as humans, God is weaving this tapestry and we only

see sort of like the knots and the ragged edges in the back and we don't see the full vision and stuff like that. And I'm kind of like, I kind of wish I didn't. Maybe it would have been better if I didn't know. I am physically incapable of not reading all the information about what was original and what's new. But perhaps someone watching at home who doesn't listen to two and a half hour podcasts and just sat down and had a fun fine time at the Disney Plus. The Blues? Maybe, and they didn't know any of this behind the scenes drama, maybe they were less distracted by all of the seams that I felt like you and I could see pretty clearly, you know?

That's such, I mean, we'll have to ask the BB report to do a little man. on the street. Investigating because I do wonder, I feel like it is. And I broadly enjoyed the two-part premiere. I thought it was incredibly uneven, though, both episodes. And not to the level of the recent film, Captain America, Brave New World. No. Not even close to that level.

Not even close, no. But palpable. Like, these are from different creative teams. These were filmed in different periods of time. these were parts of stories that were moving in a different direction. And I feel like even if somebody didn't have any of that context, they would watch it and say, they need a few episodes here to find the rhythm of this, maybe.

But you're surely right that bringing that extra, like, level of awareness. Yeah. It's pinging around. The old brain melon while watching. How could it not? The old brain melon. How could it not? We did get an email from a listener who was talking about, like,

how she is someone who doesn't know the original very well, how sort of like at sea she felt. So this is the problem, right? Or the challenge, let's say, for Marvel, which is that they want shows and movies that don't feel like you have to do a three-season rewatch of a Netflix series in order to enjoy. So are friendly to newcomers.

But also with something like this, the hue and cry was like, you can't just pretend that the Netflix show shows didn't happen, especially, and Van was making this play on Midnight Boys, especially if you're going to use. That's the thing. Vincent Donofrio and Charlie Cox. Yeah.

You can't ask us to not think about the Netflix shows at all. And if the emotional wallop that kicks off this entire revival is the death of Matt Murdoch's dearest friend, you have to understand. You can hear Matt scream on the rooftop and you can understand inside of the story that what happened was so impactful in his life that he stopped being Daredevil for a year as a result, but you can't feel it the same way as if you'd watched Nelson and Murdoch. Right? You just can't. I think our listener, yes. But I would say more damningly, even than that, is that you, I was most like, how would anybody know what was going on here if they hadn't seen Hawkeye and Echo, which to me is

borderline irresponsible if you're making this show. And then also a lot of talk about Fisk getting shot Well, Fiskin Matt, too. It's just sort of like the Fiskin Matt relationship. Like the diner scene, which we'll talk about, which everyone is identifying as their favorite part, it seems like. Not particularly close. The diner scene, which everyone has sort of noted as their favorite part, it seems like. Requires understanding of a lot of history. Absolutely.

And so how does this function as a show that is welcome to newcomers who have either never seen the Netflix Daredevil or have it? watched it since 2018 and didn't do a rewatch. Yeah. So don't necessarily remember all of the nuances. You know what was on my mind with this? This might feel a little bit like of a weird comp. And it is I concede not a perfect comp. But I was thinking a little bit about the discussions that we had covering Asoka about rebels.

100%. And like I remember feeling in real time while we were potting that like my instinct normally would be making show that people can fucking watch. Yeah. You know? Like, we want this to be welcoming without without argument or dispute, the MCU has gotten to a point where people find it impenetrable. That, there's just no counterargument to that. Correct. And I feel all that keenly. I don't want people to feel like the barrier to entry is prohibitively high. And something like this felt like a real opportunity to not make that so. But with Rebels and Asoka, I also had that really keen, like, we, but if you watch Rebels and loved it, that's,

that matters and is good. And actually making a show for people who are invested in that original story on some level feels right to me. I think it's all, as is always the case in the execution and the balance. Because to make something, the goal should be to make something

that rewards the time we previously spent with the characters without it being alienating for people who didn't do that. That's hard. Very hard. And increasingly, the MCU has put itself into spots or the IP machine writ large has put itself into spots

where that is the test that people have to pass. And you were almost like insured a failing grade on that respect for even start. And that's why I think something like, something like Daredevil and Wolverine, which really only asks you to have watched two Derrador, sorry. Deadpool.

Yep, I'm going to do that again. Something like Deadpool and Wolverine, which really only asked you to have watched two Deadpool movies, really. Yeah. You don't even have watched Loki to understand the TVA in that movie. Like, that's okay. Or something like Agatha all along, which like would prefer you watch Wanda Vision,

but I think kind of successfully told its own story inside of that. No question. This is, you know, and what we have coming up, Thunderbolts, Fantastic Four, those are like, Thunderbolts has ties to a lot of stuff. A lot. Yeah. We'll see how they navigate that. Fantastic Four, Fresh Slate, you know, sort of prospect.

So it's, it's, I really like you identifying it as sort of like an IP issue where it feels like not just, it's definitely not just a Marvel issue, it's definitely not just a Disney property issue, but it's sort of like a recent... Yeah, era of streaming TV. It's like, I... We were fine with like, oh, it's a new Spider-Man. Oh, it's a new Batman.

Like, that's something we did for years. Yes, for sure. You know? I love IP, genuinely. It's a huge part of my life. But I do think if we just... And I don't want to enter into a new version of comparing everything to Andor.

I don't think comparing things to severance, clearly one of the best shows on television in the last decade is going to do any other property many favors. But it strikes me as a really notable contrast. We're like, if you heard in the last many years, three years, your friends say to you, you got to check out severance. You had nine episodes of television to watch and then you were ready to fucking roll. If you want to do the supplemental homework, if you want to pick up the George Saunders,

I got so I meant to text you in Rob last night because I was listening driving home. And by the time I got home, I was in a brain fog and forgot to text. you, but as you mentioned, Syracuse professor and one of my dearest friends somehow got one of the 15 spots in his creative writing class, and it was literally like the best experience of her entire life, as you might imagine. Of course. Sounds like he's just an angel and a gem and a prince among men. I subscribe to a substack.

That's not the same as being in the seminar, but pretty good. Pretty good. Anyone could do it, but I do it. So, you know. Joe, anything else on the opening snapshot front, big picture thoughts before we get to the deep dive? Yeah, I think you make a really good point. And I really want to, this is why I love podcasting with you because you always encourage, like, hold me accountable for my opinions. And I love that about you is like, I really want to make sure that I'm not just default saying, well, this isn't like it was before and therefore is bad.

That's not an argument I ever want to make. Yeah. I think it's really fine. And especially sort of situationally with Matt Murdoch, this concept of born again. Yes. This is a different era in his life when he was like. Still with impeccable. Stubble.

Just unbelievable scruff, though. That is eternal. But, like, you know. Karen had a lot of feedback. A lot of things to say about that. But, like, especially, like, when you take someone like Charlie Cox who was, like, not like a baby when he did the first season of Daredevil, but like. Yeah, he's lived some life. When you think about that Matt Murdoch, who along with Karen and Foggy, there were like three young people in the city just starting their adult life together.

That's a different phase in a person's life. For sure. I've seen so much shit. And now I'm, I think he's supposed to be in his 40s, right? Charlie Cox certainly is. Like, you know, what that time of life is like. So, like, there are ways in which the differences can thematically be very interesting. Yeah.

They just have to intentionally find them. Yeah. Yeah. So they have to track and make sense and still feel like character on an arc versus, oh, wait, are we in a different continuity? Can I just say that, like, someone recently stopped me who likes our podcast and was like. Shot a character on an arc. It's like, love House of R. We love a character on an arc.

And I'm like, is that a House of Our catch? I mean, I know it is, but like, to be shouted on the street, I was just like, wow, that's exciting. Put it on the merch. Because I feel like for a while it was like, damn me, you know, like God's be good. Something like that. Working title for quite a while there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we love a character on an arc.

What a catchphrase. Love that. Oh, man. That's great. I'm honored, honestly. Deep dive. Let's do it. Joanna, we are broadly going to go.

chronologically through the episodes for the deep dive, deep, deep, deep, deep. But in a couple places, we'll go slightly out of order just to avoid a constant, like, and particularly in episode two. Okay. I have not gotten very much sleep. I was going to stay weak, but let's just shoot you to year. Oh, yeah. I'd like you to join me.

on the streets of Hell's Kitchen. Delighted to be in Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, well, you're going to get to be there very briefly. 51st and 10th. One year ago, sirens, blaring, people walking, meat, roasting. Sure. And from a door under a sign that says Nelson Murdoch and our three friends will emerge. What do you think happened to Karen's journalism career?

They followed through on the promise. of new napkin. They did it. They asked for to be their like investigator. Yeah. So I think she became their investigation. Did she have to give up the bulletin office? Oh yeah. And it was a blood bath over who we got that after her. Maybe BB is sitting there now. But oh my God. Here they are, Joe. Me roasting. Me roasting on the street. Very New York. Would you ever eat? I am not a big street meat person. Not because I don't think it smells delicious and

taste delicious. I just am like. Scared. if I'm going about my day. It's just, I have to be a little more strategic than that, you know, than like, meet on the corner before getting on the subway. What if you knew you were heading home? How long is the commute? Joe, our three pals, talk not only about gastrointestinal distress, but about,

well, I don't know. What was the quality of the food at Becky's? They seemed to miss it, so I guess things went fine there. 30% of the police force having retired in the last two years, Karen's like, don't try to fact check me. My numbers are always. Right? They start going through some of the things that have changed in the neighborhood. They're taking us through this evolution. And then we get a very meta-foggy line in response to Karen calling out to nostalgia. He says, not nostalgia, reverence for the past, yet hope for the future. My observation is that this is the kind of line that can be like this beautiful acknowledgement of the thing that we all know we are doing, which is entering a new era together, or a big fuck you if you get it wrong. So how did it feel to you? I mean, I have hope for the future of this show and hope for the future of the MCU.

They have not killed my hopes yet. That's great. Yeah. Do you think Kevin Feigie has had this, like, printed on a banner and it's in his office? Not nostalgia reference for the past or the future. Maybe. Speaking of journalism. I've heard about the time I worked at Vanity Fair.

And it was like my first year there. And the then editor-in-chief had a big sign made that said, think like a startup. No. You have not told me that. And we had no idea what that meant. Was it next to a giant monitor showing you like a heat map on charpeat? It was just like huge and on a wall and nobody knew what it meant. And we would just say it to each other.

Like he meant literally nothing, things like a startup. Was it on? Reverse for the past yet hope for the future. Was it on like notepads? Cousies. Sweats shirts. Yeah. The baseball tees?

No. Well, but missed opportunity. Oh. Okay. Joe, we're heading to Josies. We are heading there for the retirement party for a character we do not know. Cherry.

And this, I thought this was, again, I thought they weren't even broadly enjoyed the first two episodes. I didn't actually say this. I just felt so good being back with Matt and Fiske, mostly. And like that diner scene, which I'm excited to talk about. I really, really loved. And I was entertained and engaged

and I'm excited to see where the story goes, even though the first two were a little uneven. This was such a weird way to start the show to me. Like, of course you're putting us with the people that we know and this trio that we are so attached to.

But then we're spending all of this time in this sequence. Yeah, meeting these new people. Kirsten McDuffie is here. I think Sherry is here. Foggy flirting with Kirsten was sort of the most successful version of that. We were robbed.

We were robbed of seeing that through. of like let's take a new character and integrate them into the previous. Yeah, sort of. What did you think about our time with Karen and Matt? They're like listening to Foggy, try to work his game, right? They're making fun of him. But then Karen's also like, we could just get out of here. It gives Matt the eyes.

Are these two at this point in time, fucking. Occasionally. Yeah. I do you think they are occasionally slipping? Like slipping right in? Yeah, just slipping right in. Yeah, get that devil horn in there. Yeah, baby.

Thank you. Oh. I do. I think they are sometimes occasionally. Because when they invoke the friend code, that was more about staying to support foggy. Not about like we're in a friend zone with each other. Or it's just sort of like we're friends.

Like we said we'll be friends. But then sometimes I think they slip up and they fuck. And I know how you feel about Karen. But I will say for me, this I think actually did a huge disservice to the love story that they try to sell later because I actually do think that Deborah and Wall and Charlie Cox have like electric chemistry.

Oh, incredible. And so them flirting here is, I think, ten times steamyer than anything we get. Yeah, this was like electric. Yeah. Definitely. So, unfortunately. So your ship, you're shipping Matt and Heather Hart is what I'm hearing. Unfortunately, for Heather Glead.

Like, this is, you know, compare this to like the coffee shop meat cute or whatever. It's like... You're not vibe in with men, Heather. I... Tell me. Like her. Mm-hmm. Mother Coral.

One of the worst characters in the history of us podcasting together. When I told you about that... I was astonished. I don't know. I know. You like froze. I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah. The actress who plays Heather...

What are you talking about? On the show, played Mother Coral on Ackleet. One of our least favorite characters we've ever encountered. It was after you had said that to me, but also the only thing Arjuna initially texted me about Daredevil was, I can't wait for your mother choral takes. And I was like, thank God.

I had that point was emotionally prepared to receive the text after confronting this shocking news with you. I think she's perfectly great in this. I'm actually to skip ahead. I'm kind of excited for the like Tony Soprano, Fisk marriage counseling stuff. Like, yeah, I love the Sophano's what you know. We have a Gandalfini in this show.

We do, we do, we do. So all of that is interesting me. I just don't think, I don't think they spark. And it's shocking because Charlie Cox sparks with everything. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a person. Everything. Matt Murdoch. Think about it with Jennifer Walters.

I would love to. The Matt Murdoch we have spent time with. Claire could soak a piece of sandpaper. Tell me. Let's do a social breakout right now. That's how it starts. What comes next? I'm so sorry to our new friends who are here with us today.

I'm not. Someone should have warned you. This is what do we do. Okay. How are you to follow that up for a 90-second package that Jomey can put on the socials? So on the, it is working front. Before we mourn, can we talk about Foggy's beard for a minute? Speaking of soaking sandpaper, I suppose.

This was sensational. As you know, I love a bearded man. Thought this was wonderful. How do you feel about Eldon has, like, sort of grown out the beard a bit more so in the, in the, like, more recent interviews that he's been given. It's like a more like mountain man sort of thing. Fantastic. I love it. You though, of course, are a long hair foggy season one enthusiast.

Any thoughts on should we be fortunate enough to see foggy in memories and flashbacks and or, as you mentioned, is a possibility before we hopped on Mike in the multiverse? Everything's possible in the multiverse. It's all possible in the multiverse. What sort of hair do you want Foggy Rockin' them? Yeah, the long hair. This looks great, though. I think the short crop with the beard looks great. It does.

It does. It does. It's a fantastic look. If you're going to die, yeah. Might as well die looking sharp. Yeah. Joe.

Yeah. When Foggy is trying to pick up McDuffie, she's like, why are you in the shitty storefront? You gave up the riches of big law. And he says, Call us it an MMP and Matt and Karen very sweetly and cutely like mock him for this. Do you think Foggy loves Mad Men?

No question. Okay. Absolutely zero question in my mind. The only question is who is his favorite Mad Men character? Peggy. Oh, totally. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Two of the Greats. He's like, it's real. Because it's real. That's why I do it. That's why I'm here. That's why we're taking on. The cases we're taking on. That's why I'm doing this with my friends. That's why we're in this little hole in the wall. And I just like, before I knew what this about to happen, it made me so happy to be back with Foggy because he has had his, Matt, we talk a lot with Matt with the Catholicism and the character and dissonance inside of him about, we talked about this a ton on our primer pod. It's one of the things we both love about the character. Doubt, shaken faith, competing impulses. One of the things that was great about the Netflix series is that Matt was not the only one who faced tested.

Yeah. Like, Foggy in his own way, Karen and her own way repeatedly faced their versions of that. And sometimes it was in the nature of their relationships that they could trust in. Sometimes it was what the system could afford. You know. I thought of you when we have that like a, I mean, all the time I think of you, but we had that really dramatic pan into the deck sentencing scene. And I was like, I almost reflexively recoiled because he looked so scary and I was like, Joe's going to love this. I did love it.

Oh, my. God, great stuff. We're going to talk about White Tiger more in the second episode, but... Can I just say quickly, Foggy? Foggy. Foggy. Foggy. Last we saw him in the Netflix series was engaged. Does he not?

Okay, so what do we make of Marcy just, like, is gone? No mention. No nothing. I think they just did not want to have to also cast her as like a mourner. To them be like, sorry he's gone. Yeah. So they were just sort of like, let's just kill that. We can't kill Foggy off screen.

Let's kill his relationship off screen. so we don't have to hire that actress to mourn him. I think I'm okay with it because I like to think of that relationship as one where they're like on and off. Even when he's like, let's get married, they have falling out, but then they find their way back to each other. They fuck and she's like, you're great in bed. And that's their story. And it works. I mean, not anymore because he's dead.

But for a while it works. Yeah. There's some things even the most resilient situation ship cannot withstand and it would be bleeding out on the sidewalk of a lot of kids. shooting you in the heart. Yeah. Yeah, tough. We'll talk about White Tiger in episode two, but we are introduced to him here

because on the television, we see this, you know, just honestly, with love and respect, to everyone who works really hard, embarrassing. It's news footage that is playing, the news is playing surveillance footage.

And this is like, it's obviously not the same as when we saw Kingpin introduced into the MCU in a tiny pixelated text message photo because Kingpin just matters so much that it's like, wait, what? That's how you're doing it?

But in terms of how goofy it looked, very reminiscent, very strange. Tough. Yeah. Tougher than having your nickname be dumb Benny? I think, yeah, that's tough. I think especially because White Tiger's costume in the grand scheme of thing is not the goofiest thing we've seen in the MCU and like whatever. I don't hate it.

In the world of Daredevil. Yeah. It's high on the goof meter. Because Daredevil has been such previously, had been such a like street level. Yeah. I wear cherry red tactical armor, sure. But like, you know, that sort of stuff.

Mostly I prefer my black under armor. Yeah. And so do you. And so do I. Dumb Benny. Sad, sad. Calls foggy. Yeah.

Dumb Benny. It's tough. Moron Mal. It took me a while to shake it. You know, dumb Benny is just. Let me ask you a question. Foggy takes the call. He goes outside and we get this like treatment.

People love this. How did you feel about it? I was, I remain undecided. I remain undecided. I kind of liked. Maybe it's like a first time. I liked, yeah, like every time. Yeah, I liked reorienting us.

Okay, Matt, right, the super heightened hearing. And the way that the camera moved into like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you can imagine the funnel of I don't know how to sound waves I don't really know how any of that works but I liked what the visual effect conveyed in terms of like taking us into that experience format

but it's used repeatedly throughout these two episodes you didn't like it. I didn't really love it. I guess it's a way to do it visually rather than like having him explained his sort of world on fire sort of approach as we got in the Netflix show but a lot of

of people seem to really like it. To me, it felt like, I don't know, a little overmuch. Yeah. I thought it was like decently inventive. I'm curious to see if it feels like overbearing or distracting at a certain point. And then the most important thing that could ever happen happens. So take me through your response because someone, Benny's scared. Someone is coming. And here's how we find out who it is, Joanna. There is a fly on a light bulb. And a paper clip is wielded with such precision that it spears. and kills this fly. And I said, that's my man. And then you said what? That's my man. And then after that, you said, I can fix him.

Correct. I sent you like nine, I can fix him, text. I'm concerned. Then this point, yeah, you also put one in the dock. Your belief in Benjamin Pointe, Dexter, is inspiring. I'll be it alarming. So, Dex is not after Benny because we learn that Foggy has stashed. Benny at his apartment and Matt asked Foggy,

why didn't you tell me that Benny was receiving threats and was scared? And Foggy says, I'm sorry, maybe I didn't want to give you an excuse. And this will be the last thing that these characters ever say to each other. And this is fascinating. And I hope we come back to this, perhaps in a season two flashback or something like that. Because I don't know what's going on in their relationship right now. or I don't know what kind of daredevil Matt is right now before he hangs it up, before presumably he takes it back up again.

But like I, what does that mean? Maybe I didn't want to give you an excuse. Is Matt on the, you know, has he been reckless lately? Right. Like what's going on inside of their relationship? They really felt like they had found some harmonious moment at the end of the Netflix show. So what is what's going on here? It would almost be more.

I agree. I really hope we get the answer to that. it's almost more interesting to me if provided that we then get time via flashback or whatever with Matt and Foggy to explore this. Foggy, foggy, foggy. When Matt's phone later

announced that Heather was calling and announced that Cherry was calling, I had told you before it on the last pod that Adam just genuinely loves the foggy, foggy, foggy and says it all the time. And like we look to each other and realize that we would never hear

foggy, foggy, foggy again. It was sad. You know, sometimes little things like that really kind of cement that a character has died. It was like, oh my God, you're never going to hear foggy, foggy, foggy again. How sad. Everything's possible in the multiverse. It is. Matt's ringtone can go on in the multiverse. I would be almost more interested if like it was less that Matt were behaving recklessly or constantly on the brink of doing something that leads to him saying things like he's going to say later in this episode. You know, I felt like I had lost the privilege. And more that he was towing whatever line he needed to tow.

And Foggy always still had that little tug of like this isn't, should you be doing this? What does it mean that you do this? Like you're supposed to be a lawyer. You're supposed to operate in the court of law and pursue justice through the structures of society. And every night you take it upon yourself to go do it differently. And like that was just such a fascinating part of their dynamic. frankly, you know, we're about to get to his death.

It's on my mind with like, why did they do this? And there's a part of me that... Why did they kill foggy? Like, there's a part of me that wonders if they felt like that well was dry. That, like, how many times can you put those two characters in the same... And I'm not saying I feel that way, but in that same situation of like, wait... I think by the time we got to season three, there was like a bit of like a... Yeah.

How many times can we go around this particular thing? Yeah. As you know, I think Nelson v. Murdoch, a season one episode of the original Daredevil is one of the best episodes of television ever. You're going to be such great avocados. The best avocados the city has ever seen, Joe. Guacamole. Smash avocado toast. That's not great. Speaking of not great.

Tell me. Take me through it. The Daredevil versus Bulls I fight. Swing us right into this scene. Here's the thing. I think we've made plenty of excuses for Shoddy. CGI work from Marvel over the years. We've been understanding of like how

budgets are stretched thin and VFX houses are overworked and all this other stuff like that. But I'm just like astonished that literally like 10 years after Daredevil appeared on Netflix and we just rewatched it and we just got to see how amazing it looks that they would serve us something that looks this bad as our introduction to the action for Matt Murdoch.

The digital double swinging through looked so video gamey, gumbified, looked so horrible to me. And like this is, you know, rewatching the action scenes in She Hulk and in Echo, I can see how some of the like twirlier, high-kickier Matt Murdoch stuff was already on their mind. in those shows.

Like this is something that they were sort of away from the sort of like Batlin Jack Bruiser, Daredevil, more towards the he's almost a Spider-Man-esque figure so we give him this grappling hook so he can swing in.

There is a shot where I do not know what the grappling hook is connected to because it's like from thin air. Yeah, that was weird. So this is like the Spider-Manification, I would say, of Matt Murdoch. which don't at me, I understand, is like from comic book origins, right? Right.

I, we talked about this on our rewatch. I love, you talked about how he heals a bit faster than the normal guy. His senses are heightened, but he's just a guy. And I loved that he was like just a guide. He would just put his like, just a guy body on the line to defend the city. And he would just sort of stagger around. And we see some staggering from both him and definitely from Dex in the stairwell. Dex is going through it.

Matt has like 97 knives sticking out of him and it's like slightly labored breathing. So I just, I found this really tough. Did you find the, to jump ahead a bit, the fight that ended episode two? Better, much better. Much better. And that was like, I mean, first of all, on the, is Disney Plus going to be as violent as a dare to? Kill those skulls? I mean, one of the lends on his neck? You can only smash a skull into a table, yeah, a table, a freezer, and the fucking floor so many times.

The snapped arm. Yeah, which to me, to know it's like, that's super strength, right? You can't just snap an arm. I guess if you have the right leverage, you can. How brittle is that cop's bones? Anyway, point being, I thought the CGI looked. Quite poor. Deeply terrible. Yeah. It just distractingly so. Um, my guy Dex rolls up. Yeah. Looking great. Kid it out. Like he's got, he's got bullseye gloves. He has consulted a branding expert. Yeah. Yeah. Um, she's foggy. Says, hello Karen.

Hello, Karen. Boy, really takes you back to. In season three. Um, I do want to talk a bit about sort of like the why of this because this is what Matt wants to know when he's on the roof. He's like, what? You know, it gets a great deck screen. I have seen, they have this fight in the bar. We get, this is the oneer, right? And this is the problem is like they're trying to give us a classic daredevil oneer. And the bar is so high on those three fight scenes. Oh, no question.

The one from season one of the Netflix version, which I told you was like top five superhero moment for me. The stairwell fight, where as you pointed out, he definitely kills a bunch of dudes. Serial killing. at that point. The prison escape, which is the longest of them all and, like, deeply impressive. Not my favorite, but, like, still deeply impressive. And all sort of physical stunt work.

You can see stuntmen staggering out of frame and then Charlie Cox crawling back into frame. Like, we know that that's working, but it's not digitized in a way that this is so synthetic. We've got the synthetic CGI fog. We've got the moment when he, like, turns the lights out, which should be cool. And we've seen Matt do something like that before, but not in this sort of, like, Night vision trying away. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like it's just

And so I've seen online a couple You know of our of our brilliant colleagues Break down the fight and break down all the details of the fight And that's those are really fun to watch But I would argue it is too chaotic. Yeah. Yeah. It is not shot in a way that I can cleanly track all of that action

And all the character beats inside of the action of like the way in which Dex is like just like tossing multiple cue balls at a given time to like ricochet them off things or whatever. Like all of it is cool in concept and I think quite poorly executed. The part that I found in obviously non-stupefying CGI division, the part that I found most confounding in terms of just the choreography and sequencing of the fight was Matt letting Dex get so far ahead of him on the stairs. Thus killing additional people because she's just like alone. What was going on there? There's one shot on the stairs that I really liked, which is like decks up against the wall and it's like his eyes are really wide.

That looks like almost like a comic book like paying to me. Like I thought that was really cool. And I think conceptually, again, the idea of Matt trying to execute this fight while hearing. Foggy dying. Foggy's heartbeat slow. I think conceptually is really cool. I'm going to credit the Redditors for this because I was like sort of as I like to do reading the Reddit boards. Like I saw a couple people.

suggested I don't know who did it first. Would it have been cooler if instead of like the score which we hear is going, if we just heard Foggy's heartbeat, like to, that's the soundtrack of this fight and to hear it slow and slow and then silence. And all you have is Matt's scream at the end. Yeah. Like I'm like, ooh, that's really cool. That's not fair.

That's like, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking. But like, I think that, yeah. What do you? But this was just like a huge. This put a huge damper on my whole experience. Yeah, because it's the opening note. And I was like, oh no. Oh, no.

And yeah, to your point, I did think the fight at the end of episode two was much better. Yeah. And so it makes me hopeful for the future. And I know that they actually hired the same fight coordinator in the revamp. They hired the same fight coordinator who worked on the original Daredevil series. But that means that that person put this sequence together. And I don't know what to say about it. On the first viewing, because I was genuinely astonished that Foggy was about to die.

Yeah. Like flabbergasted. I was like, I actually can't believe this is happening. My heart was like pounding. And I was, but then on second viewing, and I was talking to one of our colleagues who had a similar experience, you know what's going to happen. So then you're more just like watching the scene. And I was like, oh, boy.

Oh, no. But I did love the astonishingly violent kitchen fight in episode two. Here's what happens here. Yeah. Matt here's foggy, take his final breath. And then he pushes Dex off the roof. And Dex goes splat. I had already said you like three, I can fix some texts while I was watching it.

And then I was like, oh, no. That was fun to get those in real time, actually. Weirdly, that was how I realized. long the opening scene was. I was like, this is an 18-minute opening. Huh. Interesting. Matt drops the mask. That was like the visual and the trailers. You know, they were kind of building marketing around that. And Matt sang like a line had been crossed to Fiske in the diner. So I want to talk about two things here. One, we see Dex, you know, his eyes open. We'll explain why. He's alive. I would posit that that is not relevant. It's

It's relevant for the story moving forward, but it is not relevant in terms of assessing what Matt Murdoch does here. He intended to kill him. Which is the one line. We talked about this a lot in our primer pod. I find it hysterical that he's constantly like, the one thing I won't do is kill people and then like just hanging guys by metal chains and dropping them down stairwells. But this has been like a defining. I won't cross that threshold.

Like that's the thing I can't come back from. And losing foggy is what pushes Matt to do that. thing. And we lost foggy. And we should talk about, we already have a little bit, but like, how that makes us feel and what that means and why it happened. So take me through your thoughts and feelings about all of this. On the one hand, like, I mean, it's devastating. But for the show that they wanted to do, I understand why you can't have foggy or Karen there necessarily. I mean, it seems like Karen will probably come back from San Francisco.

But like if they wanted to do Matt Murdoch reinvents himself as a slicker Manhattanite lawyer, like you can't have foggy necessarily in the mix there. And if they wanted to salvage like sort of just I understand logistically why this was the only move they had when they decided. And to your point, I'm kind of like, I'm glad we got any foggy because originally we weren't going to get any. That would have been. But again, for people who don't know anything about the knots and the seams in the back of the tapestry, like for them, they're just like, oh my God, you killed foggy, you bastards. Yeah. I love foggy.

And we talked about this on our rewatch, how even higher we estimated foggy upon the rewatch. And so the, the, I don't know, it's really, I don't want to be negative about everything, obviously. We got this really interesting email from Brendan who said it zips ahead a little bit in what happens, but he says Foggy was a character who kept the show grounded in some sense of reality. Matt, Fisk, Vanessa, even Karen are all characters that work on TV, but they're largely caricatures of real people, in my opinion. I'm pretty concerned the show is going to become sprawling and overly complex without the intimate focus of their friendship and small law practice.

Karen disappearing after his death, except for one extremely awkward and silly conversation. with Matt, the amount of time we're spending with Fisk and talking about political maneuvering, et cetera, all seem like bad signs. So once again, this is Brendan sort of saying, hey, this isn't like the daredevil that I know. And even though they spent much of season three apart and Foggy was kind of forever quitting the law firm, like that core three did feel like it was the perhaps cogmium enhanced spine of the original series. Gives us that durability. Yeah. But yeah, so I don't, I think it'll all depend on how it goes forward. I will deeply miss him.

Bradwaterbub has said they're going to use him in season two. So we don't know if that's flashbacks or as we've mentioned a couple times. Everything's possible in the multiverse. But how did you feel about it? Sad. Yeah. Like, really sad. Yeah, it really, I was like, what?

Yeah. And I think part of me like kind of. if this was going to be part of the show, part of me kind of admires doing it right at the jump like this. You know, you just throw us so fully and deeply right away into Matt's state of despair where we are going to meet him. It's like a little cruel to remind us of that relationship and then take it away.

But I often really like stories that make me super sad and like remind me if I can feel that deeply about losing someone, it reminds me of the investment I had in the first place that the characters had in New Needs. other. So I'm like actually, I'm very sad. I think I am okay with the decision. I'm really aligned with what you're saying. Like I, there's a part of me that thinks, okay, yes, undeniably like you're saying, Nelson and Murdoch, Nelson and Murdoch page, that's the through line, right? That's the like Blair of Red that always bathes the city and the show. It's all, it's just you can't

escape it. It's always going to be there. And Hell's Kitchen. Yes, in Hell's Kitchen. In this scene. There's like a part of me that is like, okay, but life is not just one or two relationships. And I like, you know, I'm thinking about this now because of what you were saying earlier about finding Matt in this different place in life later in later in life and like meeting new people and seeing how Matt forges new relationships. Like part of actually what made their dynamic as a trio so interesting is that Matt and Foggy. went so much further back than Foggy and Karen or Matt and Karen. And so it was like watching that acceleration of one person inside of this thing that was like...

Existent dynamic. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So seeing like Matt, and you know, we talked, we both really lamented in the primer pod killing Father Atlanta. I'm like, why do that? And I think you really felt that again right away here. Hugely. I just this, this. I really missed.

the Father Lantern or even Sister Maggie stuff, like not having any of that in here. We need a conversation on a bench in front of a church. Looking at a church door. Yeah. You know? I have this mark for later, but I'll say it now. Like to yes and what you're saying,

I think in a sense, this is honoring the Born Again comic book storyline, which is about Wilson Fisk sort of systematically. It's like a Job story, essentially. It's about Wilson Fisk systematically stripping Matt Murdoch of his law practice, of his relationship with Foggy. Karen starts in a bad place in that comic.

We don't need to repeat that for Karen. Yeah, to the point where Matt can't even trust that the thing that he thought he knew to be true before was even real. Right. So he loses his mind and born again because he's stripped of all of these things that were sort of shoring him up.

And so there's a way in which no Father Lantern, no Sister Maggie, no Hell's Kitchen, no like even let's go over to Josie, no Karen, no foggy. that gives us like a daredevil alone in the world. And what a dangerous thing that might be. You know, that concept.

Totally. Unfortunately, that's so juicy to me. Unfortunately, the show sort of immediately, because this was the original plan, sort of fills in those holes with Kirsten and Cherry. That's the thing. But fails to flesh those characters out in the way that Karen and Foggy were fleshed out.

Yeah. In there's some good, I like Cherry generally as like a character. and Kirsten and I would like to see more from. But, like, I was thinking about this, like, thinking about Karen and Foggy in the first few episodes of the Netflix series, they're given their own side quests. Yeah. Like, what are they doing when Matt's not there is a constant thing in Daredevil? We get, like, us, you know, Kirsten and Cherry, like, you know. Yeah, yeah.

But that's about finding a suit in a box. It's not about, like, how do those characters. Right. What are their relationships? How do they interact in a world? So they're not fully formed characters. So the relationship then is Matt and Fisk. Yeah.

And that's not uninteresting. No. It's very interesting to me, but it has to always be balanced against the thing with Matt and Fiske that was, I mean, everything with the two of them in the first three seasons of the Netflix show was electric, but always there was the sense that Foggy and Karen were embroiled in that.

Yeah. Right? That they were like sucked up in that jello mold that was expanding around them became these little pieces of bobbing fruit and a thing that they didn't want to be a part of. But also it was like equally important. Like Fisk had his Vanessa. Like his home life important that fleshes him out as a character, relationships.

And it was important that Matt had his on this side. And that's what makes the Netflix series so juicy and satisfying is like these are real fully formed people. And like we're coast. I feel like in these two episodes, and again, I'm over. open to have my mind changed. We're coasting on a bit of fumes, especially for Matt, I would say. When we get shots of him in the street, sorry, I know I'm zooming all over the place, but we get shots of him in the street lit with the red light, you know, sort of looking up. That's us sort of like filling in a lot of gaps for a character that the show is not giving us a full rounded version of. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think the thing I was lowest on across the two episodes was Matt and McDuffie and Matt and Cherry. Yeah. Because it, again, like, I am interested actually in saying a person later, a few years later in their life that when you were last with them would have new relationships and new people. And what are those dynamics like? You and I only became friends a few years ago. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Like it could be your cherry. I mean, Cherry has not come close to earning that. Great. Not come fucking close to earning that. But I think in part because McDuffie literally is the new law partner. So how can we not think of it? foggy. And then Cherry, Matt's using him as this investigator. He saw Matt without his mask at the top. So like then when we catch up with him a year later, he knows the truth. Matt's like, you know, I know he's telling the truth about Hector. But Cherry has like, and I thought this was interesting. We get to hear him call him Maddie. You had made the beautiful point on the primer pod about what it tells us about relationships. Who calls him Matthew? He calls him Matt. That's a very like paternal thing for Cherry to do. So that, that obviously is different than foggy. But emotionally and thematically, Cherry's role in these two episodes was at the retirement party to voice a sense of woe about

the changing nature of New York. What do vigilante, what hold do vigilantes have over people? Right. And then to say to Matt, by the water, et cetera, like, I like this version of you. You're doing some good. Are you sure you want to be that guy? Yeah. Are you only thinking this about Hector because of the mask you used to wear? And that is just, that's what you're, that's what you're what foggy used to do. So if you get rid of foggy, I'm open to new relationships. I'm open to losing foggy, genuinely. But if you get rid of foggy and then the two of the three main new relationships, because obviously Heather is the other big one, are kind of doing foggy stuff, then I'm like less clear on how that's going to work. So they have time to make it work. They have time. They have so much

time and they had to cram a bunch of extra show that wasn't previously there into the show. So what did they cut and this sort of stuff. But like, what's Cherry's life like at home? What's Kirsten's life like at at home? You know, like what, Heather, well, Heather has a book signing. Heather, they do like a bit more like work on. But I'm just sort of like, what was Cherry's decision like? He retires and then he becomes Matt's investigator. Right. Why? Right. You know, and I'm, you know, I'm open to being told later. But those are just things that like the other shows and specifically Daredevil and Netflix did a better job of sort of helping us understand earlier, I would say. To play devil's advocate with the devil of hell's kitchen,

I think if we had gotten scenes in these two episodes, I think you're undeniably right, but that also if we had gotten scenes in these two episodes where we just went home with Cherry, we would have been like, we do not know or care about this person. We don't need to go home with Cherry, but they need to give it to us eventually.

Let's talk about like Ben Yurek in the first season of Daredevil on Netflix has his whole side plot with his wife. Yeah. That gets seated from the jump. There are mentions of his. of his wife and what is going on in his mind at all times he's trying to navigate in these things. So that's just like, that's just like a slightly more sophisticated. Like all of this just feels like a slightly flatter, less visually appealing version of a story that was told by people who are just thinking a few levels deeper on character and spirituality and all these other things that we really responded to.

A striking lack of Catholic guilt and doubt in this episode. Where's my got got got like three. Mad as a Catholic beats, but they're pretty muted. That's interesting. I wonder if that will change. I hope that changes. That's a really on the tapestry front, you kind of can't make the Daredevil tapestry without that. We zoom passes, but I had a couple people text me and asked me, so we should just say this on podcast.

The reason that Daird, that, that, uh, decks survives the fall from the building is that at the end of season three of Netafel. of Netflix's Daredevil, he gets his back broken by Fisk. And then we see him in surgery getting special metal, not adamantium, sort of inserted onto his spine. And it seemed almost like it was like his skull as well in that fall and stuff like that. But like in the fall and in this episode, it seemed like maybe there was like metal on his skull as well anyway. So he's like not more machine than mad now, but you know, a bit more machine. than man.

So that's why he was able to survive a fault that definitely should have killed him. He went splat. And to your point, Matt definitely intended to kill him. No question. No question. And we got one of those primal screams that we talked about a lot in Dary level season.

We got a couple primal screams from Matt in the series to open the series and then to the closed episode two, I believe, right? Yes, correct. In the kitchen. Probably murdered some of those people. Speaking of murderers, let's go to Kingpin and Queenpin.

Vanessa. Thrill of my life to be here with you and your Vanessa impression. Joe, we go, this is where we're going slightly out of order. We go straight from like Matt is watching the news. We're hearing about the mayoral race. 15 candidates. Okay, we know where we're going here. We obviously had seen at the end of Echo of Fisk watching the news on his plane. We know what his intention is. He has his eye on the office. We caught right to Fisk at breakfast. And we have to, I mean, yeah, foggy died and that's a big deal. But the single biggest thing that has to have to. I mean, yeah, foggy died and that's a big deal. But the single biggest thing that has, happens in these two episodes is that the classic signature iconic Fisk omelet has been swapped out. He's cut out yolks. For egg whites. Yeah. And one stalk of asparagus. I miss the old omelet.

I miss the ritual of him making the omelette with the chives. Yeah. Yeah. Sad. He's living in an egg white kind of life. Speaking of change. He's an older man. It's true.

He's watching his clothes roll. I respect that. I miss the ritual of watching him make the omelette with the chives. He goes to his suits. We had this like shot of Matt. you know, feeling the edge of all his suits and then Fisk kind of mirrors that, like, looking at his outfits. And he does not, he lingers on the white for a second and then doesn't pick it. This is, of course, for the character, like, I have to show the people that I am not the

kingpin of crime. Yeah. I am a mayoral candidate and I will wear this gray suit. For us, it is a nice way to be like, remember in season one when Fisk wore gray suits a lot? So that was exciting. The fits. Wonderful. Take me into this scene with Vanessa. Queen pin. Vanessa's meeting with the five families and she's like handling shit. She has that entire room. We are inside a, what looks kind of like a storage locker. I have some questions about what are they're reading. Somewhere in red hook.

People do store art in those spaces, right? So like, she's got a lot of art there. She's a lot of art. We don't need to go into specifics of what the art is, but just to know that they are renowned paintings. And it's a lot of like. women in peril slash thrall and double figures and stuff like that. That's interesting. To me, the most important part of those paintings being there is that they are not made-up paintings.

Those are real expensive paintings. And so Vanessa, ever the art collector is like still on her art collection. Bullshit. I loved the moment later when Fisk was like asking about the desk and he's like, Vanessa would know on sight. I know. That was a great moment. I loved that. That was good.

Oh, man. Red Hook gets mentioned four times in this episode. So. Yeah. A lot of Red Hook. Yeah. Red Hook, New York, I should say, is a lovely place. I went there for the first time this last fall. Did you run into any members of the Trachsuit Mafia?

Alas, no. But one of our listeners actually took me to his comic shop in Red Hook. So shout out Megabrain Comics. Delightful. I don't know what horrors await us in. Red Hook, as it's been mentioned several times in this episode. But if you're in Red Hook, yeah. No free ads except for this, Mega Brain Comics. Go, Vincent. There you go. How did you feel to be back with the Trachshut Mafia? There's a little bit of a little bicker fest between

characters named Luca and Victor. Do you wish you were Kazi? Well, of course. From Hawkeye said. I'm mourned still, and I always will. But like, death doesn't really matter. That's true. In a Marvel show, King Bing got shot in the eye. That's true. They solved that one. They solved that one. Of course makes us think of, you know, Hawkeye and not just the Traction Mafia, but the way Kingpin was undeployed in that show and everything that...

Bro. How do you think Lucky's doing right now? Our beloved pizza dog? I'll just live in life. Miss him. Yeah. As you noted, Vanessa just in complete command of the room and then meeting interrupted.

Kingpin enters. And he says, Vanessa. Yeah. Could you have been more thrilled that this was the first thing he uttered? I'm not not not in love with my own Vanessa, but I got to say the Midnight Boys really crushed their Vanessa, their King Princess Vanessa, precious. Really good stuff.

Everyone? They've got that base register. I can't do it at all. Vanessa. Vanessa. Everyone's like, whoa, Wilson Fiske is in the doorway. They're shocked. Luca or a track suit guy.

I would say the camera lingered on him staring for a beat longer than he should have. So he's going to be a problem at some point. Something. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, I respect women in power, not you. Yeah, Luca had strong down with the patriarchy energy. Definitely. You know? That's what the Trachshamoffy is known for. Joe, we go right into scenes from my marriage. Vanessa's pissed. And we learned, she's like, I sat by your bedside and then you fucking ghosted. You left. And not just that. You left to go be in a bad show. I know it liked. Of all the things to leave for.

Also, there was that phase where we started wearing Hawaiian shirts that I didn't enjoy. Oh, my God. So, like, we are made to understand here that during the events, presumably of Hawkeye and Echo, they're not in touch. It seems like. They are estranged. She is, he's like, you're doing a good job with the business,

and she mentions how the profit, like, they stay little because I make the money. profit keeps you loyal and he said loyal yeah right and the camera was like the reflection of his wedding ring on the table did you perceive that as as we will later learn he knows that she has been engaging in an extramarital affair with a gentleman named adam and that is he knows that here already okay um she asked how long he's going to be around steve can we hear this clip as long as you'll have me Vanessa broken, shattered. For months, I had to

put myself back together. As I did, two things shown bright and clear inside me. Beacons of who I was and who we could be. The first was my undyed love for you.

And the second? What we could do for this city. Okay, can I just say? Yeah. I know I've been like, largely quite critical of, I don't know, the scene and a half we've managed to cover so far. Yeah, we're on making great time. But getting to listen to Vincent Tanoffrio, do Wilson.

The thrill. Is a joy and a delight. I love pretty much every Kingpin moment, I think, across the two episodes. I'm out on Daniel Blake personally, so a lot of that stuff was not working for me, but everything else. Yeah. Absolutely. He got to say fuck in the MCU, though. And then Heather said fuck later.

Two fucks in these episodes. A guy in the street says, fuck yeah, when he's fixing a hole in the... We had to wait. A decade plus, decade and a half for the F word in Guardians 3. And now here it is. An embarrassment of it. Reckless abandon. So, you know, obviously when we were first introduced to the relationship between Wilson

and Vanessa, like that love and passion that he had for her was inextricable immediately from the man he wanted to be for the city, for her and the city. So this has always been the nature. of their relationship and it was interesting to kind of, even though they are in such a different place, return to that, that entwine, entwined nature. And she's the one who, like, told him to get out in front of, like, he was sort of from the shadowing this. It was like a shadow agenda.

And she's just like, no, you got to put yourself out there. Right. Be that guy. This was what I was alluding to earlier and I was like, how would you have understood what was happening here if you hadn't? Because everything that, all of this, like, you were gone. Where did you go? if you don't watch Hawkeye and Echo

I just don't know what do you maybe think this is about him being in prison at the end of season three? Like what? I mean they do mention later that he got shot in the eye, right? But like he got shot in the eye. Yeah.

And then he was like chakra healed by Echo. And then had some new tech. What? Yeah. It's all. Yeah. We've got some questions still, certainly. I don't know.

That was supposed to like take him inside of his child. self and heal something in him and has it done anything to him? Or are we all pretending that echo doesn't happen? But then why I like allude to the events of it so many times? That's what's interesting. Because there was a version of this where they could have not, I guess, literally ignored that because it, you know, those are two shows that he was in, but picked up more, tried to establish more connected tissue to you sent me to prison and we made a bargain, which does also come In the diner scene when Fisk says, I didn't do that to Foggy, I kept my promise. Like, that's the moment that he's alluding to.

It just doesn't make sense. Yeah. That was messy, for sure. He tells her he's going to run for mayor. Got to step back from doing anything illegal. And she's like, fuck off. I made this business bulletproof when you are gone. You don't need to tell me any of this.

And of course, at the end of season three, when they reunited and she came back from being in hiding. she was like, I want to be a part of all of this. She's like, girl boss. Exactly. And she's doing great. And now she doesn't want him. She has missed him, as we'll hear many times, genuinely missed him.

And obviously we know that she loves him, but is conflicted that he has returned, which is, I think, really interesting. I'm excited to see what they do with all of that. Less exciting is that we have some new spaces to discuss. I don't quite know what to make of this. Murdoch and McDuffie, a new era. has begun. We're introduced to two new spaces. We briefly get to glimpse Matt's new apartment here. This is not okay. This is... This apartment looks nice, but where's the... What? What? This is devastating. Max Loft is like, ease Daredevil. The way... I don't remember if we talked about this. I think we must have.

I know you talked about how much you love that loft. You were like, it's another, its own character. The way that those windows were like basically eyes, like, it was just like... this whole thing. And yes, he's not in Hell's Kitchen. He's reinvented himself. It's just like a dramatically uninspired apartment. It's just like really quite boring. And that's fine because why, what does he care about interior design necessarily?

And I did like this scene when he was just like working in the dark because like why would be on the lights. Yeah. I thought that was good. But it's just like the opportunity for like a cool. This is just such an uninspired set as is the law firm, an uninspired set that like again, takes us away from like the rich drama, the like Gothic noir,

operatic almost sort of setting of the original series. And I think again, this is like similar to in a different context, like a point you were making earlier where there's a version of this that is interesting thematically because that apartment was like Matt, Health Kitchen was not just a place Matt lived. It was the essence of like life to him and the thing that drove him to do this, a thing that he genuinely felt he needed to protect as fully and deeply as any person

with a heartbeat, right? And to have Matt go to kind of like faceless, generic cookie cutter, shiny, I'm a rich guy now apartment in New York. Like, actually, like, there's a version of that where it's like, yeah, he doesn't, he's lost that tether. Much like in the opposite way, the law firm going from, do we have any food here

to they're in this like, beautiful windows and sunlight and brick and not just how big and clearly expensive the space is, but how many people are working for them? This is a serious law firm. I think weirdly more than even the physical space. I was struck later when Matt's like, this client of yours is like a moron. And she's like, well, McDuffie's like he's rich. So we call him a savant and they both laugh. I'm like, oh, right, it's just a different era of Matt Murdoch lawyer. Right. And that tells us something. He's distancing himself. Yeah, he's weirdly distancing himself from what he had with Foggy. almost by doing the thing that Foggy wanted and Matt didn't, right?

So that's like very sad, but you got to mine it a little more actively for us to feel it. I agree. Maybe they will. Maybe they will. What did you think of Matt's musical choice here? I don't believe in an interventionist god. This is into my arms. And this, the grace and retribution quote that opened the episode and then Matt hearing the sermon as he passes the church. That was like kind of it for Catholicism Corner.

We get a couple shots of in the storage container storage space where they were meeting. We do get like haloed images of Fisk and Vanessa. Also, we should mention that first shot of Fisk from like a visual excitement sort of point of view, that upside down shot of him and the skyline also upside down. Very like, you know, into the spiderverse sort of thing. Yeah, for sure. That looked cool. And we did mention that I think the opening credits are cool.

The opening credits were really cool. And also, yeah, exactly. That felt like a nice way to do something that is new, but clearly connected to the thing that came before. Yeah. Out of many windows across the two episodes, we see the Chrysler building a lot. It's mentioned, I would say that is the most, like, frequently used New York landmark. One thing I wanted to ask you about, so in this stretch here, when we're first with Matt and his apartment, he picks up this card for Foggy's Memorial. Yeah.

there's a part of me when I saw this for the first time that I was like, oh, it was the memorial that day. Then we realized he's going to Dexter Sentencing. But then later when he's about to go out on a date with Heather, he picks it up and takes it with him again. Like, do you think he is carrying this with him every single day? Every day. Guilt is good as we learned in the original darede. Yeah. It's kind of, it's kind of careworn. It's sort of like a little sort of like dingy in the way that like, yeah, I think he puts it in his breast pocket every single day. That's really. heartbreaking. Oh my God. Joanna, take me to the sentencing. Take me through the sentencing for your boyfriend. First and foremost. I can fix him.

Just wanted you to know that. He seems like he's in the kind of place where, yeah, just needs a couple. A great mental health space. When he was sort of like laughing maniacally on the roof before he got splatted, great stuff. They have like really made sure that he cannot fling a single thing. There's like bags on his hands. That was good. That was good.

That costume design. I liked that. Here's what Matt says. He said her to speak. Kirsten had made sure Matt was okay. She's like, are you ready for this? This can be hard. Also asked if you, like, have you heard from her priming us that he and Karen were not speaking? Matt says from the stand, justice will not be served today. It won't be served because whatever sentence is passed, Foggy Nelson, only his mother called him Franklin will still be dead.

And I thought this was fascinating because in the same strategy, Matt advocate, he does advocate for punishment. He's like, well, the best we can do, the closest we can get is this punishment. And then when the judge reveals the consecutive life sentences, Matt's cheering. He's like, okay. That's a weird moment. I rewound it like four different times. It's like a very like intense moment.

Yeah. Yeah, there was like something almost manic about it. But what he's saying here, like he does not, the Matt Murdoch that we are with in this moment, believe that the legal system can deliver true full justice. And that is a big deal. But he's not vigilantin either. Right. So then where is he getting that sense?

No justice. Of some sort of justice issue. No peace. No justice in the world. Not unless you make it. Well, he's not making it. And then he hears some footsteps. My question is,

does he smell some curry as well? Or what other meal Karen had had in the last few days? This is a reference to our last pod where we talked at length about the fact that Matt told Karen that he could smell. the curry on her, like, lips from the meal she had previously. So disturbing from a character we genuinely think is super hot and cool. Tremendous restraint from Van on The Midnight Boys talking about Matt Murdox. He was like, he was talking about smelling pheromones.

And I was like, that's not what Mal would have said. Yeah. They were well-behaved. They were well-behaved. Bad baby. So we get, yeah, the Matt and Karen hallway. I mean, my beloved Dex is going away for consecutive life sentences. Tough.

Sounds like a perfect place to fix him, though. Yeah, you can visit him? Perhaps conjointly. Well, do you think this is actually the end of Dex in this season? No, it can't be. No. We have to find out why he targeted. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Man Karen on this bench, I loved this physical setting and the framing of this scene. Because, first of all, in... a little reminiscent of when we see Vanessa and Wilson in marriage counseling, like they're not near each other. There's far apart. There's a distance that is physical and emotional between these characters in this moment.

It could not be a less comfortable place to sit, right? And of course, that's like deliberate, right? Discomfort in the face of justice, stiff back, you can't really ease in. But just these two characters confronting each other again in like the halls of justice when Karen's, you know, that's how Karen came into their lives, right? They were representing her. And the number of times in a courthouse or a lawyer office, like these characters had a meaningful moment together or a falling out together, thinking, of course, most powerfully of Matt just ghosting them for Elektra in season two during the trial of the century. Speaking of ghosting.

Yes. This is what happened here. Yes. Mutual ghosting, essentially. And Foggy's not there to help them find each other. again. And like he would have been the one to do that before and that's devastating. This gave me kind of... Did it change... Did it turn you around on Karen page?

I like a time with Karen in these episodes. Yeah. What about... And now she's in San Francisco. If when she comes back? I would actually like Karen to be back sooner rather than later. I think that Matt having no interaction with those people from his past would feel really weird and wrong. And like, I think these two are, life rafts for each other and I hope they had the opportunity to be that.

Also, if we're going to get punished her stuff, depending on how much we get it, like Karen's such a huge. Right and Karen. Got to have it. Have to have it. When she was like, yeah, I needed you and you were gone. And Matt's like, I was mourning. I was going through it.

I needed a minute. And then when I needed you, you were gone. Did it make you think of Hank and Hope, Pim? Because like, obviously we learned that Hank was actually up to something there. But that like, that's that root of, I lost someone too. we both lost this person and obviously you were going through it, but I needed you and you weren't there. Such an interesting aspect of a relationship to me. I'm always fascinated by that.

You don't think about Hank in a long time. Though we get Pimp Van Dyne merch in this show. Yeah. It's true. What other aspects of this exchange struck you? I don't know. I thought this is actually quite lovely. Though like I felt like I could feel the sweat a little bit of like how to,

do we justify that Karen just leaves, you know. For sure. But I do think the act of her giving the physical totem of like, here's the devil horn. Yeah. And then the fact that we see him sort of fondling it, fingering it. Say it. Yep. Clutching it.

Later. That's really effective, I think. This little totem. It's like we're in an inception. That's why I said totem. Are you looking for support in your. weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zep bound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with

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of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. I really like you know, the fact that Karen gives him the little devil horn and then we later see him sort of fondling it. Yeah. Fingering it. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

It's a really good, like, physical representation of we know what he's thinking about. Yes. He's thinking about foggy. He's thinking about Karen. And he's thinking about, is it time? How long am I going to make a weight? How long can I handle just this tip? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um.

How long do you think we have to wait? For Karen? No, for, well, for the suit to come back on. Oh. I'm going to say episode. It's a nine-episode season. We're already two in. I am going to say episode, I mean, at the end of episode two, it seemed like he was ready to put it back on, honestly.

So you think up three. But three feels still may be soon because Matt is all about the turmoil. Five? Episode five? Episode four? Loves the turmoil. What about you? What do you think? You think there's a chance we don't get it to like episode nine or you think we get it sooner? Yeah. That actually feels like more of the daredevil way. So I think that's what my head tells me is end of season. He puts it back on and then he is born again. Yeah, let's go with that. That seems right. That just obviously seems right. If he wants to like wear a scarf in the meantime, I support him. But yeah. I thought when Karen was like, it's just, you know, yeah, I'm like happy you're doing so well. And Matt just, you know, yeah, I'm like happy you're doing so well. And Matt, just very quietly said,

yeah, great thanks. Like, that was so sad. Like, this person that is so close to him, how could you think, even if you're kind of saying it to be a dick because they're mad at each other? You know I'm not doing well. You know I'm broken and shattered and I need you.

And I have failed you too. And so you're not ready to give me that. But like, even when she was like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to go to coffee. And he's like, I know what I can tell you're lying. I just don't know if it's to me or to yourself. Yeah.

Oh, man. These two have some stuff to work through. I thought it was also really interesting when Matt said that he refused to let a tragedy destroy everything because he did exactly that in season three. You know, when we meet Matt, he is processing the events of a television show called The Defenders. The Defondis? And the loss of a great love in that story. Elektra. Yeah.

And he allowed Foggy and Karen to think he was dead for multiple episodes as a result of it. He was like Matt Murdoch is dead. that's, of course, one of the really interesting things about we're going to hear this clip right now, but Matt is in a place that feels familiar to us where we've seen him before navigate this one part of myself, I need to leave behind and let go. Kill the devil, let the man be born?

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. How many times have we mentioned thrones or alluded to thrones today already? Not enough. Not enough, I agree. The fact that now he's like, Matt Murdoch is all I am, and the devil has to go,

is an interesting twist on a familiar. your experience. And the maturation emotionally to say, like, okay, yeah, I know what it's like actually to think that losing somebody means you have to lose everything else. I'm not going to do that again is progress. And yet he cannot get Karen to speak to him and he was not there for her and they're in a really tough spot. So I hope these two figure it out from across the country. Steve, Karen asks, I just thought, frankly, far too loudly. Like everyone in that courthouse should know right now that Matt is Daredevil after this. She's like, so what are you going to do about being Daredevil?

Huh? Your anti-Carrant agenda continues apace. I thought Karen was, I enjoyed my time with Karen in this episode. I would love to hear this clip, Steve, if we can. What does Matt say? I made a promise to myself. I've let the system handle it. All of it.

Besides, I'm not him anymore. And I won't have. myself be. And you think that that will help? I don't know. I'll make it worse. And I will let myself be. Spoiler alert. He definitely will. This is interesting, too, that I don't know. Like, Matt is really in a place across these two episodes where he doesn't, you know, this, this isn't justice, but it's the next best thing. Is this going to help? I don't know. If this city wants to elect Fisk, they deserve him. That's really cynical. Maybe I've just wised up. He's like a mat who is settling for something that he knows is not good enough. And that was not. He's suppressing part of himself. And we know that later

that Kirsten sets him up with Heather like sort of romantically, but like should he maybe not also be in therapy? That was so, yeah, it's so top of mind because of course he thinks she needs legal representation, very amusing. She has been told that he needs therapy, which he would benefit from. And she's like, how about instead I date you? I mean, that's obviously that was a romantic setup. But I'm just sort of like her being like, ah, so you're fucked up in need therapy. Also, should we date? That's two scenes from now.

We basically just talked about it. But right before we get there, Fisk does officially launch his campaign. Matt finds this out while chopping vegetables. Sexily. I was riveted watching him chop those vegetables. Oh, my God. Could he chop those vegetables, Joanna? Holy shit.

What was he chopping? Which vegetables was you chopping? Look, it was a very dark scene. You kind of hate to see a vegetable coming, though. I love a vegetable. I love a vegetable. I just also love a lot of really unhealthy processed sugars and really like a lot of fried food and fatty food and I love cheese. But I do like vegetables too.

Like if left to my own devices. I've never seen you eat a vegetable, but like probably you have. I love mushrooms. I love vegetables dipped in hummus. I actually love vegetables. love a salad. Would I, if left my own devices, have like fried chicken eight nights in a row? Yeah, but then on the ninth night, I would be like, I need a salad. Okay. And I would think it tastes and then chopped some vegetables night. And then after I would be hungry and then I would need a pint of ice cream.

Okay. But I also have the pint of ice cream on the nights with the fried chicken. So yeah. The vegetables. Anyway, he hears Fisk is going to run. He can't believe it. And we meet Fisk's team, Joe. These were not the most impressive character debuts. Let's just say it. Sheila, Buck and Daniel Blake. Sheila, a non-entity, as far as I'm concerned. Yes. Daniel Blake, deeply annoying. I'm watching the socials and everyone's talking about you. But your most quotable character, you just quoted him to me while we took a break in this podcast.

You love him. You love Daniel Blake. You're a big fan. I was actually pretty disturbed. Genuinely, it's like it was an uncomfortable experience because the Trump energy around all of this, obviously the entire like. Yeah, FIS can fix it. The whole campaign. This idea of.

like, well, you're winning, you're popular and social. Like, you did it for yourself. You can do it. You're a criminal, but you can be our leader. But, like, this, the stuff that Daniel Blake is saying is just so trumpy. It's very Trumpy. And I will say that, like, on the one hand, it's Trumpy in a way that I just don't feel like is very interesting.

We're like, I'm like, I get it. On the other hand, it does give them nice cover because I can't sit here and be like, how on earth could someone like Fist become mayor of New York? I know. Yeah. Yep. Totally. Um, okay. So how did you enjoy your time with? Buck Cashman. I kind of enjoyed Buck Cashman. What a name. Buck Cashman. He's a, he's a comic book character. I kind of enjoyed him. I do. He was such a dick to Sheila. You and I, no, I don't enjoy him as like a real person. No, of course. It's not a performance. Yeah. Um, you and I both made notes about James Wesley. Yes. As someone we sort of were really missing in this.

moment. Yeah. And I felt with Daniel that the way Fisk is gravitating toward him and taking a shine to him across the two episodes is like he's so clearly still trying to fill the Wesley void. But Daniel's not like Wesley at all. At all. No, to me it sort of felt like he saw himself and, you know, in this kid. And he's so young also like a little bit of Maya in a way, right?

Like he has a conversation like, I know I had tried to mentor someone. The closest I got was trying to mentor someone. I kind of feel like Michael Gandalfini and his sort of just sort of like stature and the way he's dressed felt like kidpin to me. You know. Good old kid pen. Yeah. Um, okay, so your favorite character out of the two-part premiere is Buck Cashman. Got it. It's not not. It's decks. You can fix him. I am very loyal. You can fix him. We already talked about the meet cute. Anything else that you want to say about Kirsten setting Matt up with Mother Coral about Matt and Mother Coral meeting at the coffee shop. I did enjoy Howl and Matt has to own it. Incredibly rude he is. And then he's like, sorry I'm such a dickens that you like to sit down and have some coffee. Let me creepily. Well, welcome to Accent Corner, Matt Murdoch. Yeah. Okay. I actually have a note about this. Obviously, joining you on Accent Corner is welcome and wonderful. It's a passion of yours and through you of mine.

I would ever do it to a person in real life. I just think Matt. that's being kind of reckless with his powers. Like he's... Because then later he's like, I heard someone... I heard in the bar that Fisk won the election by 53%. Are you worried that it's going to be dangerous? Then he swoops her up on the sidewalk and she's like... That was a human could do that spin.

Could a human have anticipated exactly? I mean, he is a human. I don't know. It's just he's too... Are you worried that Heather is going to figure it out? Well, she does at her book event say, like, my next book will be on projected personas. So obviously she's super interested in the vigilante era what it means to put on a mask and go do these things. But is she pro or anti?

And if she's anti, what will that do to their relationship? And this incredibly important relationship that I'm deeply emotionally invested in. And Fisk is for a client now. So, and like we'll talk about who's at her book event, who we think is at her book event. Let's just do it right now. Let's go out of order. We linger on... Well, Bart Gashman is there.

Bok Gashman is there. Was your read on that that he's like scouting her to be the therapist? Yeah, but also I think he knows that she's dating Matt Murdoch. So, okay, so this is, then what, like, does Fisk know that? Yes. And so he wants to be... He needs a therapist and he's like, I will learn about Matt through you. Yeah, it helps to have my...

What does he think his therapist is going to tell him about her relationship? Or just have his little claws in her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We pan to a young man in the crowd. Then he comes to get his book signed. His name is Bashian. And he's like, I really need help. Will you help me? Are you taking on any more clients? To be clear, do not know that this is true. The identity of the performer playing muse has not been revealed. I would say it seems clear from this moment that this is muse. Yeah. Right? This is who's playing news? Do you want to tell people who muse is? So if you've watched the trailers for the season and you've seen the white mask with the black, that's Muse. So Muse is going to be one of the main villains of the season.

And is... Muse makes murals with people's body parts. And maybe we should say that. I don't know. Should we not say that? Is that a spoiler? Is that a spoiler? True.

You're right. You're right. There are murals referenced many times. And we see... We see someone at the end making a kingpin mural. A split. That is probably Muse, who's probably also this kid, played by, I think it's Hunter Dewan, I think is how you say his last name. Yeah.

Who was, this is the real spoiler alert. Spoiler alert for Wednesday. I have not seen Wednesday. Go ahead. Not a good guy on Wednesday. So I feel like this is like spoiler casting. Got it. It's like on Law & Order.

Like sometimes you have spoiler casting on Law & Order. Yeah. That's the bad guy. Yeah. Got it. Okay, well, he was given, he was given, this is probably Mews energy here for sure. Heather. Meet cute, book signing.

Anything else on either of those? She's like, you've got the way of the world on your shoulders. I know this from 48 hours. I thought that was extremely stupid. Very dumb. Here's what I did like. At the table when she's like, you know, they're just, where should we go? What should we do?

Sharon in a fantasy? And she's like, yeah, I'll have like a dumb. double fist of my tie. Hard to double fist of my tie if you've got daredevil's dick in one of your hands, you know? She's like, why I'm going to get less? I'm going to go give you a taste later. And then when he takes the phone call, a stretch. It's hard to double fist a Mai Tai. They're talking about sex repeatedly. I love this. I was like, this is where you felt a little bit. You're not feeling the chemistry, but a little bit of them like, are we going to get a sex scene as soon as episode. I mean, they're definitely going to like, I mean, he's like, I got to go. But she's like, you'll

make it up to me later. He says with interest. No, I know. I know. Yes. You've mystically sort of way. Of course. Yeah. But they're having, they're making multiple sex comments on this. You've been known to like double fist caffeinated beverages.

It's true. I routinely get two cold brews at once. But I am also when I do that, sadly, lamentably, not on a date with Matt Murdoch. Yet. Yet. Matt and Cherry, Cherry's got some intel. Half the cops hate Fisk.

Half of them. The campaign is buttoned up. He calls Vanessa an investment sorceress, as that's how people describe her. That was pretty funny. I want that on my business cards. Investment sorceress? We can make that happen. Yeah, why not?

Yeah. I don't know anything about investing, but sure. Maybe we should send the first word out for, you could be a sorceress of anything. Okay, great. Podcast sorceress? Sure. Great. Let's talk about the best scene of the two episodes.

Matt Murnock and Wilson Fisk. This is the best scene. I will say, I don't, I just don't think. one should ever say we were doing the diner scene from heat, which is what Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Anofrio have said in press. And I'm just sort of like, don't do that to yourself.

What will Chris Ryan say about that? Just don't do that to yourself. But this is definitely the best scene in the episodes. This is a scene that was added. And it seems that of all the like sort of competing factions of who's deciding what story goes where

in this show, it seems like Charlie Cox and Vincent Donofrio have their own opinions and their own sway in this because it seems like they said hey you know you don't have a scene with us for a little while if we don't figure something out. Good note from them

if that's how it transpired. So they put this scene in and I agree it's the best it's the meatiest interaction that we get. I really loved it. I loved you know we opened the episode with it. I thought almost every moment in the scene was like

great. I thought even just what we lead, you know, we lead into it with we're hearing a little snippet from the debate and Kresna's shit in the bed. Fisk is like, you just want superheroes to be registered. I think they're a cancer and we need to treat that. Like, he wants to eradicate them. This is obviously, you know, Mayor Fisk in general, Pings Devil's reign on the comic book front. But this aspect of like Fisk trying to shut down superhero activity in New York really pings devil's reign. Yes. as unsurprisingly, an arc that we will likely be pulling from in this season of television. I think, I thought this is really good.

This is very much like, they might as well have guns aimed at each other underneath the table. Sort of like, you step out of line and you step out of line. I'm coming for you, but we've got this uneasy detente. Yeah. All of that works for me. Perhaps we're not for me just seeing the season three finale. Uh-huh. Where to refresh people if they didn't know, Matt Murdoch screams, you don't get to destroy who I am, you'll go back to prison and you'll live the rest of your miserable life in a cage knowing you never have Vanessa that the city rejects you. It beat you. I beat you. I beat you.

Yeah. So am I confused about how Kingpin is out on the street doing crimes again and getting elected mayor? No. Right. We know from our own. Real world that's sort of like that amount of money. Sadly believable. And he had gotten out of person before. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, that's fine. But, but mad not acknowledging it. It was doing crimes, doing a crime or two.

Yes. Leading a criminal organization through Hawkeye, through Echo, so like that. So the whole proposition of the end of season three of Daredevil on Netflix was like, you fuck up. Yeah. I'm coming for Vanessa. Right. You know? Yeah.

And then it just seems like he just said, J.K., I'm not going to do that. do that. Is it that we don't get any acknowledgement from Matt? Like, is there something that we could have gotten from Matt that would have smoothed that over, you think? Or is it just like there is actually no explaining it? And so they hope that by, yeah, it's better maybe

not to try. Not that that's a great explanation. But I agree with you. I thought, I loved this scene, but that lack of a clear tether from this essential moment shared between the characters was quite odd. Again, if this were a

reboot. And this is a different Matt Murdoch and a different Wilson Fisk. And they're like, I know who you are, but I'll let you get away with this for right now. That'll make sense. And in the comics, we are so used to like heroes and villains meeting again and meeting again and meaning again and sort of like going after each other anew. Especially though, I will say like the nature of this conversation. We're going to hear some of it in the second here like, you have children. There probably was a way to be like, Fisk is like, I kept my promise. And he could have even been like, you know, you didn't actually. You did not.

And I appreciated that. There would have been a way inside of this scene maybe to account for those events. So that's odd. I liked visually, you know, we talked about how we initially see Kingpin. I liked kind of sweeping into the diner, the mirror up top. We talked a lot in the primapot about how these two are so effective as dark mirrors, much like Matt and Frank. But I liked that it was not just Fisk and Matt as dark mirrors to each other, but the mirrors that they have with other versions of themselves. You know, they're each trying to leave a self behind.

For Fiskits, I'm not Kingpin anymore. I'm not the crime lord. A rich man only serves himself in his own interest. The mayor serves his city. And Matt's like, okay. And then Matt, of course, is trying to leave the devil behind. I'm going to threaten someone with some blackmail photos, but I'm definitely not. She's dig was disgusting.

I'm definitely not. Not the Kingpin. And they're both repeatedly throughout this conversation saying, that's not true. both of them. Kingpin's like, I wonder what, you know, the, the darker half would think of this. Yes. And Matt's like, give me one reason to believe you. And so neither of them is going to let the other off the hook, which is quite interesting. Steve, can we hear the opening of the Steiner scene? Well, I'll admit it's not entirely unpleasant. See you again. It's been a long time. Life has happened. You have children. No. You? I don't know. I tried to mentor someone, but...

Well, that's the closest I've come. Didn't she shoot you in the face? Yeah. Younger generation, what can we do? So, honestly, like, I thought this was really great. And, like, could that real estate have been better spent? catching us up on what happened after season three rather than on Hawkeye and Echo, maybe, but there was

something about, you know, when you get that feeling, we talk a lot about the peril of continuing, including on this episode, of continuing to want to play in the same sandbox and never being ready or willing to, like, move on and let a character or a world or a slice of a universe really truly properly conclude.

Yeah. The other side of it is like that feeling you get when you're like, I'm back with these people. I love. And just like watch, like that, that chuckle. Didn't she shoot you in the face? Obviously hilarious. And then that laugh and obviously just like it's not entirely unpleasant to see you again,

that meta aspect of like us being back. And the way it felt for us to see these two together, I was just like, yeah. There are ways in which this works so well. And I think there's ways in which and again, the Midnight Boys talked about this a little bit like sort of in the like the Batman Joker dynamic of like, in a way no one will understand me the way that you. understand me. You know what I mean? Like you and I talked about

in the original Daredevil the moment when Matt says to Kingpin, we're nothing alike and he says that that's what you'll tell you yourself. Right? Like impossible not to think about that throughout this entire conversation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So like there's something really believable about that.

And I think probably I just need to like let go of some of the continuity issues that I'm I'm having between the Netflix series and this series. Because, again, it was, like, originally created to not be that. But it is just that, like, I beat you. This city rejected you. And for Matt to be like, well, the city gets the mayor that it deserves. And maybe that's just to speak to Matt's...

How disappointed he is. In the city, he's trying to... Foggy's dead. And if Foggy's dead, then what's the use of having standards anymore? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

And also, like, I protected you from this guy and now you chose him. Yeah. Why bother? Tough. Like, genuinely, why bother, I could see how that would be so deflating and make him feel so defeated. Yeah. They debate the term vigilante. This was interesting.

And when Fisk brings up foggy in decks and talks about what it felt like for Matt to be up there, that was obviously really interesting. And, like, it was painful to hear Matt say, like, I felt like I lost the privilege. I lost the privilege to wear those horns. I lost the privilege to fight on behalf of this city. Like, he doesn't trust himself. anymore to know where the line is or to walk it. That's, like, some of the critique I've seen of this show that I don't think is fair is, like, some people are really like, Matt doesn't murder.

Matt would never throw decks off the roof. But, like, that's the point is, like, he threw someone off the roof and that was like, oh, shit. Right. Yeah. That's what losing foggy meant. I can't do this anymore. I don't have the brakes. The brakes are been cut and I can't, I can't even start.

Like in Shana's minivan. Yep. Sometimes they just wear out. I was thinking about it on this movie. Yes, of course. Anything else about the opening exchange that we heard today that you want to talk about? It's hard. It's hard to come to terms of the violent nature, hating the power that it has over us.

And then Matt replying, I was raised to believe in grace and then building toward, but I was also raised to believe in retribution. That gave me a chill. Hearing him say that was like, ugh. And that just felt, it felt like for both of them there, it hit something. It pinged something vintage about their individual pursuits. and their shared dynamic. Like you, when Kingpin looks at Matt and talks about those similarities, he admires him, but also thinks he's like ashamed of him,

that he doesn't know how to make the decisions that Kingpin thinks he would make. And of course, for Matt, as we talked about, it's like the there but for the grace, like, this is what could happen to me. And then he did a thing that Kingpin would do. And Kingpin is the one sitting here saying, I don't do that anymore. I think what's also true would I really like, and we've always talked about this both sides of Matt Murdoch and stuff like that,

like thinking about the fact that this is someone who was raised by Batlin Jack. Yeah. And his mother is a nun. And so this idea of like grace got in front of our eyeballs more lessons from Father Lantern. But like this idea of like grace and all of that. Like we had literal conversations about that in the original series. But then also like Battlin Jack and or stick and what it means to sort of like fight with your whole. body with your fists with like, you know, everything, like what that means and the inherent,

the constant inherent contradiction inside of Matt Murdoch. Right. Distilled and crystallized here. So, yeah. I love it. Great stuff. Fisk wins the election. Big surprise.

He did it at the end of episode one. Very short campaign. Would you like to have seen more of that campaign? Yes, if it means more, Buck Cashman, no, if it means more Daniel Blake. I'm a little torn on this. Like, it is almost distracting how quickly we get to that. point and it was part of what made it feel like, oh, you feel how this went through the edit sausage machine. But I don't know if it positions us then to have a smoother rest of season run.

I don't know if I mind it. Like maybe Fisk needs to be here in this position by episode two of this, so everything else that needs to happen can happen in the remaining. I actually have a different, like, I'm fine with him winning the mayoral race this quickly. Again, these things happen in our lifetime. But, like, I have a different, like, I'm fine with him winning the mayoral race this quickly. Again, these things happen in our lifetime. like I kind of wish that we were left more in doubt as to whether or not he was actually reformed in some way or another. Do you know? To see him grappling with that because I think watching him later than like blockbail the

commissioner is like this is a gangster mayor, which is just sort of like, you know, I think it would be interesting to watch these dark mirrors of each other. Yeah. Graple with like, do I embrace my darkness or can I cling to? some lightness, you know what I mean, versus... Yeah, and I guess both of them are pulled back in by episode two. I wonder if that will then become a full return. Or just dalliance.

Or yeah, and then, like, if they're both engaged in an internal battle of tug of war, like, Fisk is up on the roof with Vanessa. He's, I know about Adam. She's like, please don't kill him. He's like, I'm not that man anymore. He's trying to convince himself as much as her, but we see his knuckles. They're all battered and bruised. And we're like,

Yeah. So Adam, are you okay, dude? Who do you think Adam is? There was, in the marriage counseling sequence, she has that comment about like the relationship between labor and management. Like, is he one of her employees? Is he a member of one of the five families? What did you?

I bet he was like an artist. I bet he's like so different from Fisk. You know what I mean? And that's what really hurts. That would be good. If we did like the painting plot from billions, that would be good. I was thinking of the like, Grillo. Photographer plot from House of Cards, but whatever it takes. There you go.

There you go. Anything else from that rooftop conversation with Fisk and Vanessa or Matt looking up, Bades in Red or Fiske looking down, homelander style from the roof on his city that you want to hit? Okay, let's go into episode two then. The work of running New York begins immediately. Makeup artist wants to touch up the eye. He's like, no, I'm good. Right. That was kind of interesting. He's like, no, I got shot in the eye and then shocker healed. And it is important that people will remember that. So all of his speeches across the episodes are the same. I'm going to save this city, right?

It's been destroyed by vigilante justice. Also these fat cats up in the tower with their orange wine. The orange wine! Oids! We get some fun Easter eggs here. We don't need a gun-toating vigilante who wears a skull on his chest or a man who dresses in a spider outfit. Or a guy who wears devil horns to save us.

Of all the... I thought like the Matt listening in across multiple scenes on the thoughts and feelings of the masses in New York didn't work super well for me, mostly because I frankly don't believe that that many people in New York would be talking about the mayoral election or results at any given moment in time. That just doesn't seem likely. But I was quite amused by the overhearing that what you can do move to Boston. You ate the Celtics.

That was great. Great stuff. Vanessa's an issue. Yes. we should raise here, right? And so like... With the traditional voters. Right. He's being sort of advised to get his wife in line. She's not enough of a... She's not present enough in the narrative. Yeah. And this, I have to imagine is something of a Melania commentary. But also, yeah, this is like, once again, pressing on Vanessa.

Like, Vanessa is like, I've built a career for myself. Right. And he's like... Right. And I'm not your prop. He's like, yeah, cool. I've on a whim decided to be mayor. So that means you got to tank all of that stuff. that you can be my harm candy, essentially, for my campaign and my career. What do you think, where is this heading? Like, if Vanessa, because Bibi will also bring up Vanessa later and Fiske's like interview over, if Vanessa starts to really emerge as a political problem for him, what choice is he going to make? And then perhaps that's certainly what every moment we've spent with him to this point would train us to expect. Perhaps that's not what she is going to want, which is very interesting.

I mean, this is such a huge change for Vanessa. A Vanessa who steps out on him, a Vanessa who is not wholeheartedly supporting him and everything that he does, that's very different. Also very different was Fisk getting out of the limo in front of a sinkhole and after he was like, no, I want a target on my back targets. They draw attention to problems. Just goes to the form and he's like, fuck your red tape. fill this hole now. And he says out loud, as everyone films him, feeling a hole like this,

it's not rocket science. And it's like, that is actual civil engineering. And it is science. And Wilson Fisk doesn't know how to do it. I thought that was all really silly. That was very Trumpy. Totally. To show up, know nothing about the like actual labor practice that are happening. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like. And be like, both be like, both like in a weird way belittle what these like working class people are doing and win their desperate love and approval. Yes, absolutely. We did get another gem from your guy, Daniel, in that stretch.

Because Fiske is like, why do I need to keep Brooklyn? Your guy, Daniel, not mine. I love Buck Cashman. Fiske's like, why do I need a key to Brooklyn? And then Daniel's like, because we learned the outer boroughs, Joe, there is base. You got statin. Don't need Manhattan. You love Daniel Blake.

I found him amusing. I was very embarrassed for him. A lot of secondhand embarrassment when BB came for the interview. And he's like, oh, you gave me your number because you want to talk to my boss, the mayor of New York, not because you're sexually interested in me. And that's tough. And she's like, we can be friends with political benefits. I'll give you all the info on the under 30s and you can give me time with the mayor.

That was very amusing. Let's talk about White Tiger. Let's talk about Hector, right? So, Camar de los Reyes is the actor who plays Hector and the episode Open and Loving Memory. This actor has passed away from, I believe, cancer, since he filmed this. I thought he was, like, really magnetic. Yeah, he was great. I thought he was wonderful.

I thought this scene in the subway was great. I thought the CJA Subway treatment was a little. Subway moving behind him, real green screen energy. Little shitty, but the fight was cool. The fight was cool. And him, like, him showing up with, like, the bouquet of flowers. That's like a good character touch. Yeah.

And like, you know. Especially because when we meet his wife, she's like, he's not the man I'm married. Yeah. It's literally not into him being white. Yeah. So I thought all of that stuff was really good. And I thought Matt, the meet between him and Matt is really good. It's a very Karen Page, uh, season one episode one, Bear Devil.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I also know you're holding something back. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I like this. Again, this was originally, the original design of the series.

This was like case of the week or, every other week or something like this. So this is like Matt Murdoch defending another vigilante. So jumping ahead to later in the episode after Cherry and Kirsten go to Hector's home and Amy with his wife, it takes Cherry two seconds to find. Medallion and suit. Yeah, the suit and the emulent under the bed. Matt used to keep his suit in the closet, but like he wasn't sharing his home with other people.

This just seems sloppy. Anyway, Matt confronts Hector and he's like, how could you not tell me about this? What did you make of that? Did that feel like in line with this kind of like tortured, slightly hypocritical, intentionally place we find Matt? Or like an odd character beat because there is literally no one alive who would understand as well as Matt Murdoch why you would keep something like that secret and why you wouldn't be ready to share that with someone who canonically established in this episode you've spoken to for mere hours.

I thought that was kind of odd. Where is Matt on vigilante justice? Yeah. And that part of this I did like that Hector. when he's like, well, Daredevil's gone. Like, the city needs a hero. He sounds more like Matt than Matt does. And that's obviously something that not only we have to confront, but Matt has to confront.

And then Matt manages to compel the judge who was like, we're not, no bail. This is shut down to not bring White Tiger into the case. Now, we have seen across many seasons of Daredevil that these juries are vulnerable to outside influence. So who knows what's going to have? happened there probably. This is also apparently like a good legal move to be like, hey, we've got this damning evidence. I'm going to bring, you know, because the prosecution didn't know about the white tiger. Yeah. What do you think? Same actor. John Benjamin Hickey. He was in Jessica Jones. I playing a different character. Let's different character. Yes. I love John Benjamin Hickie. He is, I've seen him on stage a couple times in addition to like all his other stuff. I just think he's like such a good actor. I hope this is like a big court. firm speech coming for our guy, Hawk, perhaps. Cool role for him. Yeah.

Well, we know he's one of the people. But I've been fooled by this before in Hawkeye when I'm like, oh, it's a stage actor I love. Surely he's got something cool to do and then he didn't. Here's what gives me hope, not only that he's going head to head with Matt and the White Tiger case, but he was one of the figures listed along with the fire commissioner and police commissioner Gallo, who gets many scenes in this second episode. You got to have, Phiscus, like, I would like to not have any of these meetings and just talk to you about this desk and how my father really loved LaGuardia.

A great airport. Sheal is like... Genuinely a great airport. I used to enjoy my food options at LaGuardia and it's definitely easier to get in and out than JFK. For sure. Sheila's like, you gotta get these people all hate you. You gotta go work at the room. So Hawk is in the courtroom against Matt, but he's a foe for this. Here's my two.

Concerned about my guy, John Benjamin Hickey, AK, Hawk. Is he going to be a victim of like editing out? the sort of like, this is a courtroom drama show, you know. Yeah, entirely possible. Okay. That would be sad. Not edited out of these episodes of television, we're the myriad interstitials that we got,

a different aspect ratio and visual style for the BB report. Much like Daniel Blake, BB is here to be the resident young. It's simply a no for me, personally. Yeah. But some people seem to really like this stuff. And it reminded me a lot of the first. He's no sex in the city. I don't know if you remember that.

You see a lot of man on the street stuff and that. That reminds me. I did think all the prompts, like jail is a revolving door in crime and where's Daredevil? He's been going so long, all that, whatever. But we got a couple very amusing. Like, is it the strong obligation to protect the weak? Sure, but they're pretty whiny about it. And, of course, the high comedy of Fisk annihilated like a melon.

a person's head. And the people of New York are like, was that bad or was that cool? He also... No consensus. Killed the shit out of BB's uncle. So this is my question for you. Because Fisk asks her,

is B.B. short for anything, you know? And he compliments Ben Yorke's journalistic prowess. I mean, he's no Karen Page. And does B.B. know? Like, is B.B. there because she knows that Fisk in some ways responsible for killing Ben? Or do you think that she has no clue? I think she might find out.

I think she might find out over the course of this proximity to him. Yeah. And we should say that like in the Daredevil Born Again storyline, Ben is very important. Yes. But obviously Ben is very dead in this continuity. So we've got a young and spunky BB. Very plucky. Fisca is like she's obviously like I need this information in this access.

She's thinking practically. about her reporting. And Fisk is like, we can use that too, right? So everybody's trading favors. Everybody's thinking about what they can gain out of a relationship. And Fiske has always had like friends in the media. Always. That he's sought to manipulate.

A notable contrast, I would say, to Commissioner Gallo, who could not care less. Welcome to hashtag the resistance. Commissioner Gallo. What Wilson Fisk thinks of him. You're a whiny kid who wants everyone to love him, a monster trying to rewrite his legacy. Here's the thing. If you want Wilson Fiske on your side, you can't use the word monster. It's a real trigger for him, Joe.

Or kid, I think also. That's the other thing. It's like, did he watch the origin story episode? Did he watch Kidpin? Did he watch Kidpin Kill his father with the hammer? Fisk went to, I thought, amusing lengths to not just gain intel, but like really

embarrassed Gallo. Oh, there's theater involved. He's like, we got to get a cheese steak for this. Has the whole desk prepared? Yeah. Sent your guy Buck. Cashman. Give me a chees-a. Has to be DeAngelis. He needs to know I found his mistress and his secret child.

Make sure that she's is as congealed as possible. What's your feeling on a cheese stick? I dislike a cheesecake. Oh, I love them. Why? Any kind of preparation? The Whiz or the provolone, you don't like either. No.

Geez. I think they're great. Okay. Fisk is with you. To be clear. One of the many things you have in common, you know? You guys are out on cheesesticks. You're out on cheesesticks, but you love.

Bug Cashman. And these are my endex. These are my priorities in life. I only had a cheese egg for the first time a couple of years ago. Where was it? It was here in L.A. So maybe that's the problem. Okay. There's some obviously decent ones here.

I think it's like fat cells perhaps. Oh, okay. Yeah. We're going to do better. Okay. File this one away. Okay. I didn't understand this.

I don't want to sound like an idiot. But I actually did not understand this plot line. I think I do. Like, walk me through the logic here. Gallo is going to, as BB informs Fisk, retire. He is beloved. He is a beloved commissioner. Replacing him is going to be a challenge

because of keeping the force happy because he's so beloved. But also there's this implication there and from Gallo that all of these cops are like going to leave and follow him. I'm like, what? I didn't understand that. Fisk is manipulating through this reveal, this photo,

Gallo into staying. why is Wilson Fisk a character we have seen across 40 hours of television previously? Who is, I would say, the most adept of anyone in this slice of the universe at winning people to his side. Maybe I'm answering my own question, but like my point is like he could just go find other people who can help him. Why does he want to keep this guy who's constantly saying out loud to his face, I fucking hate you? You're a joke. I think it makes sense to me. And Gallo says, like, careful what you wish for, but I don't understand why, what,

what Fisk's play is here? It's a slight contortion, but I think there is an explanation that makes sense to me in terms of, like, politically, which is not something that Fisk has ever really tried to do before, which is politics.

He feels like he needs to, like, that for his, for the optics, it is called optics, the episode, yeah. Better for him. Yeah. To have a beloved season commissioner than to, as say, our current president has decided to do

sort of clean house and instill toadies and lick spittles. You know what you mean? It's just sort of like it, it codifies him in a way into this position of power. Yeah, I guess I think that this feels to me like a mistake fisk wouldn't make. Like he says in, you know, when he was shitting on the cheese steak, men are weak. Like you can win them over with a piece of paper.

You can manipulate them with a piece of paper. But he's like, here. all the things I'm not going to give you. He's not actually trying to build an alliance. No, he's just trying to control him and make him his pawn. And I think Gallo is making it clear. I guess I'm like, do I believe that he cares that much about the wife and kid? Kingpin wasn't threatening to kill them. He was just threatening to reveal they existed. That that matters more than all of the principles. Again, we don't know these characters well enough. It just felt like, I don't know that Fisk would talk himself into believing that outcome. There's also just like a lot of

I mean, I think it kind of makes sense, but there's also just like a lot of interesting cop stuff brewing, obviously, to pave the way for Frank, you know. Yes, absolutely. To show up and hopefully make fun of a bunch of cops for their Punisher tattoos. Yes. Before we get to that final stretch with the dirty cops, we have the marriage counseling.

We've talked about this already, basically, but is there anything else that you would like to say on this front about what we hear from Vanessa? and Wilson or Heather. No, I just think it's potentially rich, but we'll see how they handle it. I'm excited about this. They both looked so, so sad. Oh.

All right, dirty cops. We're back at the old Waterside chat spot. Please tell the people what you've titled this section of our notes. The devil pokes a horn through. Uh-huh. If they're watching, you can probably see that on a graphic. So that's exciting. That's exciting.

Is that where the graphic goes? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, that is. Kind of. Well, I don't know with that. It's, hmm, not sure, actually. We talked about the exchange that Cherry and Matt have here already.

You know, the, I like this Matt. He's doing some good, Maddie. Matt passes the church. He hears the Behold, the Lamb of God stretch. And then he makes his move. Steak out the cop. It's just such a, like, weirdly faint echo to have him, like, eavesdrop on his sermon versus have a meaningful conversation with it.

I know. You know, religiously. Hopefully you can find a new conversation mate. What's his mom up to? Is she in this show? Do we know? Boy, it's going to be tough if, I guess it could just be one new relationship yet again.

He's got to have someone to talk about this stuff with. Absolutely has to. It's imperative. Powell. Matt's taking him out, following him. Here's the call that leads him to Nikki. This is who Cherry had been on, Matt's orders trying but failing to find, hard to find a ghost, the guy who ran, who white tiger

saved, who Hector saved. And Matt makes it there first but by mere second. So he's like, I got a guy waiting to pick you up, head out the fire escape. And then only Matt is there when Powell and his fellow dirty cop, punish her tattoo on the wrist, arrive. So this is like, obviously not something that Frank Castle would support. What we can assume is that much like in horrifying real life circumstances that this is engaging with, they have taken on this symbol.

They have misunderstood. And misunderstood it. Yeah. Completely. Fundamentally. Yeah. And I think the Punisher tattoo on Powell's wrist also has like a blue line flag on like part as part of it. Our listener A.J. wrote in just to refresh people in case they did not rewatch the Punisher series.

AJ says, last we saw Frank and Punisher, he was still off the grid doing whatever Frank Castle does. Fisk knows about him. But beyond that, it's unclear where he fits into all of this. The premiere sets up a clear Mayor Fisk versus the vigilante's conflict. So it's possible Frank gets roped into that somehow. Maybe Fisk finds a way to get him locked up too, though can't pin down how Frank enters on the scene. Quite possibly a Karen in need maybe to help Matt Ark to bring Frank in. Interesting.

You know, when do you want as soon as possible? I just. And as much as possible? Yeah. Okay. I just love the character. I love the performance. I will say the trailers didn't give me high hopes

that he was going to be like a high volume player in the season. And just going off the trailers, again, we have not watched the head, we don't know. But if I'm remembering correctly, like, Matt is... Frank seems out of it. Matt's like, Frank, it's me, Matt. It has to kind of almost draw him back in to, like, the present moment. And then Frank's like banging on the locker behind Matt's head.

So I wonder if we're going to find Frank in a... not a sound state. But that would seem to indicate Matt seeking him out. Can't wait to find out. I don't know if these dirty cops will get to find out because it's like you observe it. It seems like they're dead. I mean, they're not, but it seems like they're dead.

Do you think they're not dead? It would be interesting if Matt was like I had to give up being daredevil because I tried to kill a guy and just immediately kills two people. You know what I really did like about the sequence in addition to we get some of that Charlie Cox charm. You know, listen, man, I'm visually impaired. I'd love to help.

I love it when he does that shit. Great stuff. And he's letting them beat on him and beat on him. Eventually, he has to act. Yes, he doesn't want. He does not want to do the things. But what's so great about that is like, it's ultimately, I mean, he's got a gun to his head. So he has to act to avoid being shot in the head and killed.

But that don't do this, you don't want to do this framing is always make, it always pushes the agency to the other person. You don't want to do this. You don't want to do this. Yeah. You don't want to do this. Yeah. Which I love. And I loved in this sequence, like the film, the drop of blood hitting the floor. And even though we then get the gun, it felt like that, like the

scent of blood in the air just activated, Matt. Frenzy. Yeah. In a way that he was almost like feral. Anything else from these two episodes that we didn't cover? I think we covered a lot of things. Any other thoughts on Buck Cashman that you feel like you haven't gotten to share? Today.

I hope nothing but the best for him. No, he seems like a real piece of shit. I love a... I love a snooty lackey in general. And then he seems... You think Adam's dead? You think we're going to find him like tied up somewhere? He's either dead.

Yeah. And Vanessa's going to be like, you said you wouldn't do this. Or he's in captivity and constantly being pummeled on. Tough for that guy. Personally... I would not get anywhere near Vanessa Fisk. Boy, no. Knowing their relationship.

So, yeah. On the Vanessa front or the Fisk front, any, I feel like we've talked about, we normally do an Easter egg section, almost all of them. Are there any other Easter eggs that you wanted to call out as a favorite or a highlight from these two episodes? I don't know about favorite or highlight, but we mentioned that we got four Red Hook mentions. Yeah. We also got the word punish six times.

That's promising. I'm just on punished count. So how did you feel to once again see Rogers the musical on the billboards? It felt like a weird time warp. Like I could barely remember also sort of the Pim Van Dy and stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. It's been a minute.

We're in the MCU now. Yeah. There's no mistake in it. No mistaking it. We did it. We talked about two episodes of Daredevil Born Again. I am excited for more. Yeah.

I'm excited to watch more. I'm excited to talk about it with you. And we will be back next week to do exactly that. We'll be back to do a deep dive into episode three. And again, Hobbits and Dragons and gmail.com, if you guys loved the show and want to sort of defend it or talk about it, I would love to hear some sort of counters to things that I said. I always love it when it's like a conversation, you know? Absolutely. I don't know what I said that was, but I.

Maybe dabbling with the Oz Cobb a little bit still. Okay. Perhaps. Boys. Caravization. Thank you. Thank you to Steve Holman. Yeah. As always, for producing this episode. Thank you to Jonathan, Freyes, for joining us today, helping us. The old, yeah, sure, I'll help. And then four hours later, here you still are, you know. Thank you, Jonathan. Careful what you say yes, too. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgapal, as always, for his production supervision. And thank you to Joomi Adon for his work on the superiors. Shulls for House of R. Joanna, may you be in heaven a full half hour before the devil knows you're dead.