House of R - 'Dune' Deep-Dive Analysis

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson dive deep into the sci-fi epic 'Dune' (05:38). They discuss the historical significance of the original text, go over the pop culture that followed it, and praise the aural, visual, and storytelling elements in the latest film adaptation (44:35). They then answer your mailbag questions (121:01). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producers: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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A friend will help you. They have much to learn. I will show you the ways of the desert. Come with me. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Iraqis, but to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things. Bandem. Joining me today, as always, now that she's asked me what's in the box, it's my house of our

working title, co-host, Ringer Senior Staff Writer, Joanna, Robinson. Oh, hello. I have a quick question for you. Wow. If you and your mom were dropped in the desert with only your linen gym jams, how would you fare? Not well. I give myself a couple hours max. Great. How about you? Yeah, not the chosen one myself either. So here we go. Off to the races. I do love linen, but, you know, not really made for just excursions. of any sort, let alone the one you just described. But I'm ready for a couple hours here with you today. A few programming reminders for everyone just before we start. As a reminder, the ring reverse schedule is going to be just a little bit different the next couple weeks. There will not be a Midnight Boys episode this Wednesday or next Wednesday,

but Van and Charles will be with you again very soon for their eternal. Eternal's instant reaction show on Friday, November 5th. It's almost Eternal's time. Can't believe it. Joanna and I will be back with you in our usual Friday slot this Friday. Then we'll be back with you for our Eternals deep dive on Monday, November 8th. Follow along by following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and following all of our social feeds.

The ringer versus on Twitter. The ringer versus on Instagram. The ringer verse has a group. on Facebook. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning,

which applies today to Dune. We will be talking at length about the new film Dune. We will also be chatting about the Frank Herbert book that inspired this and other Dune adaptations

a little bit as well. Basically, if the spice has touched it, it's fair game today. So proceed with caution. Worm sign. We're sectioning it. Worm sign.

Please just continue to shout that. I'm going to. Every time there might be a spoiler, I'm going to shout Worms sign. Dust cloud on the horizon. Drum sand. No, we are sectioning a little, right? That we are, for most of the podcasts,

we're just going to be talking about the part of the book that's it represented in the new film. And then once we warn you again, once Mal again shrieks worm sign into the mic. Now I hope I remember to do that. Then we will be getting into the back half of the book and what's maybe to come in the film series, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, if you only want to keep it to what you've already seen,

perhaps in this new film, that's mostly what we will be talking about with some like added context from the book, etc. Yes. I think we will keep the very specific plot points from the second half of the book and the rest of the story until the very end of the pod. I'd say we will talk in broader terms about the intent of the story when we're talking about Chosen One, stories, et cetera, more consistently throughout the podcast. So consider that again, like a general warning.

But when we get into really particular elements from the rest of the story, we will do our best to issue. Another spoiler warning. I'm so excited for this pod. It's been really fun to like read, reread this book. Know that like somewhere down the coast, you were also rereading this book. It's been a good time. It's been really nice. It's been really nice.

So now it's time to dive in. Now the thing must take its course, Joe. As Frank Herbert once wrote, cannot be hurried. Terrifying words for Steve, Arjuna and Joe me to hear. Strap on your still suits. We're going on. It's happening. Oh, boy.

Let the record state that I still. intent to take bathroom bricks. I do not actually have a functioning still suit, sadly. Yet. Yet. Yet. Yeah. We are here, of course, to talk about Dune, part one, based on Frank Herbert's classic

seminal text. Dune, the film was released October 21st, both in theaters and on HBO Max. We'll be chatting a bit in a few minutes about how we both watched it, directed by Denny Villeneuve, written. by Villeneuve, John Spates, and Eric Roth scored by Hans Zimmer. We're going to be talking about the sounds of this movie a lot as we go today, starring just an extraordinary cast that we will be talking about at length as we go today. Timothy Chalameh, Rebecca Ferguson, Oscar Isaac, Zendaya, Jason Mamoa, Josh Brolin, Javier Bardem,

Stellan Scarsgar, Dave Battista, Sharon Duncan Brewster, Stephen McKinley-Henderson, Chang, Charlotte Rampling, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, just an unbelievable cast. Long movie, too, so plenty of, plenty of minutes in which to feature various members of the cast. Let's talk about the opening weekend and a little bit of the data that we have, Joe, from the first few days. It's looking good. Listen, there was a lot of doom and gloom around this movie and whether or not it would actually connect with audiences, especially because of the multi-platform release. You know, we're still, people are still nervous to go back to the theaters as well they should be probably in many cases.

You know, being cautious, being safe. I always advocate. But, you know, we've been seeing some box office hits here and there in the last couple months. And Dune isn't like a smashola hit, a runaway box office juggernaut. But it is, it's got, it's got some decent legs. Do you want to do the stats? I love a, I love a data point. I love a nugget.

Why not? All right. Let's do it. Here we go. Courtesy of a ye old box office mojo. Here's what we got so far. Domestic opening, $40 million. Opening weekend.

180.6 million internationally so far for a global total of 220.7 million. Incredible. And I think most people predict that it's headed to like 300 to 400 to 400 million worldwide. It's De Nivell Nove's best opening ever as a director. Best three-day opening for the one. Warner Brothers, a Warner Brothers film that's also on this multi-tier HBO Max release platform. Biggest IMAX opening grows since the start of the pandemic. And it's the eighth number one opener for the Warner Brothers this year.

So that's incredible news. And like so much is hinging on this as folks have probably figured out at this point. Because like in order to get a Doom Part 2, Doom Part 1 or Doom Part 3 or anything like that, Doom Part 1 had to do well. Like, Dennyville Nive did not want to cram this book into one film. He's like, I must have two films. And Warner Brothers, like, but Blade Runner 24 and I did not perform that well. So we're not sure that we can guarantee you that you will get your second film. Did he really wanted to shoot these films back to back the way that like Peter Jackson did Lord of the Rings films, etc.

So that we wouldn't have to wait that we could feel assured that the next installment is coming. Warner Brothers, again, being cautious with their money is like. like show us that this can do well. Then we will open the gates for a second or maybe third installment. And so, yeah, we were watching the box office closer than ever this weekend. People really have showed up. And from my anecdotal experience, I don't know if you've heard this, but like I think it's also just like building as a word of mouth hit because reviews were a little

mixed, but everyone I've talked to like in my real life here who has seen it was not a film critic has loved it, is telling other people to see it. It feels like it's becoming one of those things where you have to see it or you're not in the conversation. And not only that, people are seeing it multiple times. Maybe they saw it at home. And then they're like, oh, I really think I want to see in the theater. Like, I'm, I've already seen it in the theater and at home multiple times. And I'm going back to see it in the IMAX this Wednesday because I haven't seen it in IMAX yet. And I really want to see Shaihaelood giant on the biggest screen. impossible. So that's, that's where I am. Yeah. Well, let's just, let's talk about how,

how we watched it while we're here because the theatrical release and the HBO Max offering has been really inextricable in some ways from the conversation around the movie. And as you noted, this is a big part of looking ahead when we're talking about part two and what might come next. But it's also a big part of the present conversation and how we got here in terms of the pandemic related delays that push the film in the first place, the HBO Max deal for the Warner movies. Villeneuve has not been shy at all about his thoughts about this. He wants people to see the movie on the big screen.

He wrote a guest column for Variety back in December 2020. I would encourage everybody to check that out. But one of the quotes in there is, I strongly believe the future of cinema will be on the big screen, no matter what any Wall Street Delatant says since the dawn of time, humans have deeply needed communal storytelling experiences. Cinema on the big screen is more than a business.

It is an art form that brings people together, celebrating humanity, enhancing our empathy for one another. It's one of the very last artistic, in-person collective experiences we share as human beings. And I wanted to share that before revealing. I mean, you know this already. but revealing that I watched this at home and feel at once completely at peace with that.

And also like I failed our filmmaker a little bit here. One of the really interesting things was there are all these great bonus features, little featureettes on HBO Max. And there is this kind of fascinating quality. because throughout many of them, there is discussion about how this movie is meant to be seen on the big screen. It was conceived as such and intended as such.

And of course, I am consuming those at home on my couch, right? There's a love letter to the big screen feature Ed in which he says, Dune for me is a love letter to the big screen. That's the way it was dream. That's the way it was designed. That's the way it was achieved. And that's the way I hope people will experience it. I think, I mean, I knew you watched it at home.

My only ask of you is if I am the boss of you which I'm not, but my only ask is that you put away your phone while you watched it. As far as I know, you did manage to like... Complete and total focus. Yeah, put the phone down. It's just because of, and we'll talk a bit about like, De Neville knows other films and how we feel about them. But like, every person who's asked me, like, will I like this movie?

My first question has always been, do you like Denneville knows other stuff? Because listen, he's a slow burn, slow role kind of filmmaker. And he demands your patience with, the story that he's going to tell. There's something to be said for the theatrical. Like, even, you know, we'll get into some of the critiques, but even, like, as, I loved this film.

I have now watched it, I'm embarrassed, like, I'm embarrassed, like, four or five times at this point, and it's only been out a couple days. But, like, when I saw it in the theaters, which I did, like, a week and a half ago, when I saw it in the theater, there was even a part of me in the middle of it that was like, how long is this thing? You know, even I had a moment, like, in the theater, even though I love this movie where I'm like, is this movie too long, like, what's happening, et cetera? And but then I got pulled back in because he has this very like absorbing, like, mesmerizing way of telling you story and lowering you into like the rhythm of what he tells.

So if you can like hang with Villeneuve, he is going to show like really reward you. But I worry that people watching at home like second screening or whatever, the way we watch a lot of things are not going to be able to like get drawn in in in that same way. Certainly that's not how everyone watches TV and I don't mean to be like, you know, I'm sure plenty of. people had great experiences at home. And watching it at home, like, I have a pretty good TV. And watching it at home, there were only a couple moments where I was like, I, like, I don't know, Mal, and I hope this is the case. Maybe your TV is even bigger and better than mine that, like, you got the full,

holy shit of shy Hulud coming up and, like, looming over Paul and Jessica. Or, like, even, or when they sort of meet, when we meet Zendaya's character, for the first time, so like that, it's a little dark in that, you know, that section that I don't remember it feeling dark in the theater and stuff like that. So those are the only things, but like, I don't know, what was your experience like watching it home, Valerie? I loved the movie, which I don't know that I've said yet. Oh, yes, yes. I thought it was absolutely fabulous. I adored it. I've also watched it multiple times already,

and we'll continue to watch it. And I don't think you should be embarrassed at all about watching it four or five times. I think that's wonderful. And the fact that it's so gripping and has pulled you in is such a testament to how engrossing not only the story is, but this version of it, this adaptation of it, this particular vision and rendering. I'm really curious because we obviously just outlined how the box office yield so far is encouraging, especially, you know, again, the context of the moment. I'm not expecting that at any point we get any specificity or insight into what the HBO Max viewership is.

That seems, do you think that's possible? That seems unlikely, right? I feel like they only do that when they want to brag. That's what the streamers do. If they want to like, you know, Netflix especially, like, if they really want to like dazzly with a number, they're like, they will tell you. And honestly, I think this might be a pretty big number for them. Okay. So maybe we will get it.

That would be great. But I am really curious. I'm curious to know how many people have watched it that way. How many people have seen it in the theater and then watch it again at home? How many people have watched it at home and then said, I want to also go see this in the theater? Because that is one of the things that I've been, that I've been thinking. Like, I've watched it at home a couple times, watched it. on, you know, Thursday night, last Thursday night when it dropped. Lights off. Sound system

in full effect. Big, you know, my, my husband is a big TV and speaker snob. So I feel pretty good about our setup. You know, no, no lights, no distractions. Halo settled in resting with us. Phone away. It was laser focused. And I thought that I, I didn't have like a ton of moments where I felt like I was missing something necessarily, but of course it is so magnificent and grand and scale. And there is such extraordinary, like the visual palette of the film is so extraordinary. The sounds are so extraordinary that I do want to go see it in IMAX, of course. So I'm thinking maybe I'll wait a couple weeks for the crowds to thin and then go check it out. And to be clear, I am, of course, fully vaccinated, fully vaxed.

I enjoy staying home when I can. Personal preference. my home body. So I look forward to seeing it on a bigger screen, but I feel like it was very gripping watching it at home as well. And I really support that. And I don't want anyone to feel like I'm saying you should do something that makes you feel uncomfortable and safe. Like, I think that's the most important thing is everyone feel like comfortable and safe. And if you do feel comfortable and safe to go see it in the theaters, that is an extraordinary experience as well. But I just want to apologize to, you know, our guy, Denny. Deni?

I feel like I feel like you'd be disappointed. It bothers me a little bit when filmmakers are ignoring the realities of a pandemic. Do you know what I mean? And I understand, like, Denea, I think, has been less frustrating about it than, like, Christopher Nolan was last year and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Where Christopher Nolan was kind of like pretending like a pandemic didn't exist at all or whatever. But with much love to tenant, et cetera.

But like, it's a, yeah, the realities of the pandemic are here. But this is a huge movie. And it's a movie that I've been so excited to talk about. I don't, we're not going to ignore the critique. We're going to get into some of the criticisms. But, like, honestly, everyone that I've talked to has loved it. I've seen some, you know, like critics are a different breed. And I count myself as somewhat of a critic sometimes.

And I've seen some negative reactions online to people who felt like it was boring, et cetera. But I don't know. I think this is a – it's a hit. That's what I think. Yeah, it definitely is. I will say this. I have this written down on a piece of paper. I made this prediction, like several.

weeks ago with like no when I was leaving my old gig with no hope that it would be real. But I'm starting it now. I'm starting it here and I'm starting it now. Dune Best Picture. That's what I, that's what I do. What other major contenders in the mix right now? Nothing. So, Dune Best Picture.

That's my hope. I love it. I love it. Dune Part 1 Best Picture. And if we're manifesting here, followed by Dune Part 2 being made and then also winning Best Picture. Let's make it happen.

Let's talk about that critical response a little bit more. The movie is currently rocking an 83% among critics on Rotten Tomatoes, 91% among audience members. Those numbers might fluctuate a bit between now and the eventual posting of the pod. But that's like generally where things have netted out. I'm curious to ask you about this because, as you just noted, you're a critic.

And you're very tapped in to that community. this is just my sense, candidly from like Twitter. So I don't know how real this is. But it does feel like when the movie first debuted, like on the festival circuit, the response was a lot more muted. And now that it's officially out there, there's a lot more positivity and excitement around it. I think some of that, obviously, is just the fans, right? the fan critic divide there in the response, as you were noting earlier. But it also does feel like

among people who are covering the movie, the tone has shifted a little bit. Is that just in my imagination or is that real? It was a really weird phenomenon because at my own gig, an outlet that I have nothing but respect and love for, I was really outnumbered in my enthusiasm and excitement for this movie. Everyone else was sort of like, and most of them had seen it. And they were like, it's pretty boring. And their main critique, other than their own boredom level, was they were like, I don't think mainstream audiences are going to like it. They thought it was sort of too obscure and abstract.

And I don't know if they thought if they were sort of like coasting off those Blade Runner fumes, like what happened with like sort of the Blade Runner film that didn't even have made or whatever. But part of it I just felt like it was almost like hedging their bets of like, well, I don't think mainstream money, this isn't going to be a big movie. And I was like, I think it's going to be a big movie. Like, there's a huge built-in fandom for this book that exists. It's an older fandom. Like, because I don't think Dune, unlike some books, I don't think Dune necessarily the enthusiasm for the book was renewed with younger generations in exactly the same rate. I think that will change with this film. But like, I think Dune was like sort of starting to Peter a little bit. And we'll

talk about why, partially why that is, is because it's the blueprint for so many things that came after it. I then think they found out they were wrong and they were like, oh. And also, there is just this, I don't know if you're feeling this male, but I'm feeling this, a degree of excitement around this film that I haven't felt since the Force Awakens. And the Force Awakens isn't even my favorite of the Star Wars sequels. But it was just like a time of excitement where everyone was watching like a big genre movie and being excited to talk about it. That's my memory. I mean, there were detractors of the Force Awakens. That was my memory of that time. And that's what this feels like versus like the Last Jedi was just felt like a fight.

You know what I mean? There's like there isn't that. Yeah. No, I love. I know. I know. You know I do. I know.

But even if you love something, if people are fighting bitterly about it, whereas with this, it just feels like people are excited. I think that's a great point. And that connects back to, you know, that quick. I read a few minutes ago from the guest column and variety, like the key, the heart of it, of course, I don't want to diminish or minimize, you know, a filmmaker's emphasis on the literal big screen, right, and the palette for seeing his work. But part of that that I am latching onto is the idea of bringing people together, right, in the community that springs up around

a story when it really energizes people. And that, whether people are seeing it in the theater or at home is clearly happening here. And that's one of the things that's been just so, like, energizing over the last few days, talking about it together, talking about it with the Ring orverse Crew, seeing everybody tweet about it, all of the excitement not only, like, about discussing this particular movie, I love what you said about the book readership, maybe growing from here. Like, a new generation of readers finding the story. that's so wonderful to think about.

Like how many people are going to dip into the book for the first time now and then fall into this new wonderful world. And the same thing I think, you know, same thing definitely happened with Lord of the Rings where like that was a shot in the arm of that readership, Game of Thrones, etc. Like we love to welcome people into a world like this and get people excited to learn more. And I think especially since this is a part one, I think there's going to be plenty of people who are going to run out to get the book so they can know what happens in the back half of the book. like what's going to happen. I think also we're going to talk obviously about the casting, but I think the casting and the production design and all that sort of stuff makes this even, the numbers may not reflect this yet, but I think gives this even more potential to be a wider spread hit than like something, something massive like endgame of film I love or Infinity War

or stuff like that. There's still the people who are like, I'm not a Marvel person. Do you know what I mean who are like not going to see it because they are like, I'm not a Marvel person. Those people exist. Marty, but I bet you Marty, even Marty saw it. But like, but there's something, Dune has this like high gloss to it that I feel like it could like everyone might wind up seeing that. That's my hope. Any difference you can track in the response so far, broadly speaking between book readers and non-book readers, it seems like it's finding an audience all across the viewership. I expected book readers to be more into it than non-book readers.

readers, but that anecdotally, that has not been my observation, that it's been positive and negative on both sides of the aisle. What do you think? What have you seen? Yeah, likewise. I mean, we are, we are, of course, joined today by a non-book reader who loved the movie. Jomey, you talked about this on Midnight Boys, obviously, if anybody hasn't heard, but for those who maybe haven't, give us a quick little snapshot of how you fell into the story despite not having read the book. Yeah. So I went in, you know, no, I had no prior knowledge of this universe like zero. And, you know, we were going to lay recover it. So I was going to watch it and I watched it. And I was at home like Mao, you know, and I enjoyed it. I fell into the world really easily.

Like I understood the politics, you know, the story, you know, of Paul, trying to, you know, just find his way. It's really like a coming of age tell, you know, in some parts. And it was really easy to follow, you know, what was going on with House of Traities and House Harketed and the Emperor and everything going on. And, you know, despite Zendaya, you know, not really being in the movie, only being there in earnest in the last 30 minutes, I was about it. I was locked in. It was fun. Someone describes Zendaya to me in this movie as being in a perfume commercial.

And I was like, kind of. It's true. We can talk about it. A spice commercial. Maybe. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.

And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. restrictions apply, services not available in all areas. You know, one of the areas, I will say, that there seems to maybe be, and like, I don't know. I don't know how much of this is too broad strokes or, like, straw manny.

Maybe this is not accurate. But where it feels, again, anecdotally, like there may be a bit of a distinction and response is, to your point earlier, about some of the bigger critiques, like pace and the ending, feeling too abrupt are I think the two big critiques from people who maybe didn't like the film as much or who enjoyed it but you know had a had a critique about those particular aspects that slow burn slow developing nature of the story and like oh my god this movie is over all of a sudden now for me because I have read and love the book I thought what a great stopping point that actually just felt like such a well-chosen spot to have established so much about the world and the characters

and the arcs while leaving so much. I mean, maybe too much to mine in just one future film. So I think also some of it is just, you know, going and knowing that this is like part one and that there is the intention for a second part depends on kind of how you process and internalize that. There's a way to go in and say, okay, well, I know I'm getting more. And so that will be part of how I take in the ending. But then you could just as easily say, well, I don't know for sure that part two is happening. And so will this feel like a complete story if we don't eventually get part two, which is also valid? Yeah, that was the response to some of my pals who saw it early before it was even, like, released abroad.

And, you know, who hadn't read the book. And they were like, this feels like the part one of a two part, like that we're never going to get part two. They were being very pessimistic. They're like, we're never going to get part two. So then this thing just exists and it doesn't feel like a real movie because it just feels like one half of a whole we're not going to get the ending to. I think we can all have reason to feel a bit more optimistic. Like even Warner Brothers executives are, even though they have an officially greenlit it, green lit it, they're being like much more optimistic about it happening and stuff like that. But I will say, I love this movie.

Please, please all hear me when I say I love this movie. I kind of agree about the ending. not, I think it's the right spot to leave it. I think if you're not expecting that to be the end, if you're not sure, oh, it's about to wrap up or whatever, I think there could have been just a little bit more, you know, because I was having an argument with a friend of mine who, who is a book reader, who didn't like the ending, and he was talking about it, and he was making really good points about, like, how it felt like it just sort of like ended and not ended.

And we were talking about some other things like Fellowship of the Ring or other. first installments where what's the excitement and the momentum at the end of fellowship? And he's like, his argument was, he was like, well, there's this big cost. You lose Boromere. Like, there's this, there's this, you know, momentum in this direction and then that direction and that sort of stuff. And I was like, well, there's cost here. Like you lose, Paul loses his, like, childhood innocence.

Like, you know, he goes to this big thing. And he's like, yeah, but I don't think it was treated as big of a thing as it needed to be treated as, and I was like, I don't wholly disagree with that. Interesting. Okay. So, yeah, then I, maybe I'm wrong about that, that divide, which is, this is why we pod, you know, to talk it out, to hash it out. I don't think you're wrong.

I don't think anyone who thinks it's a great ending is wrong. I'm just sort of like, could it have been stronger? Could it have ended with a bigger, like, you know, shock to the system, sort of adrenaline thing? I mean, the duel is good. I don't have anything bad to say about it. And I think once you rewatch it, all the sort of like portentious stuff that we're going to talk about leading up to it, I think gives it bigger, more weight. But maybe if you're only watching the first time, you don't know the world, you maybe don't. Like, I think I talked to some people who didn't even realize that like we had even seen James before in visions and stuff like that.

Do you know what I mean? So like I think that all of that, I don't know. It's a critique I can't wholly dismiss is what I will say. Yeah. No, that's fair. I think the reason I liked it and it felt natural. I mean, of course, with the aid of the... This is just the beginning quote from Shawnee, very helpful.

You know, really, again, the hopeful note there for a future installment. But, you know, I'm thinking of our guy Gurney. This is like in the shield, you know, fight training scene. The slow blade penetrates the shield. And I think that is present throughout. the movie, that idea, right? Not just in that moment. And the interesting balancing act is that because there are these moments of real, like, mass

scope and scale, you know, the Harkinen, I just want to say Harkkonen, because that's how I've said it in my head for Eons. Harkinen for the movie. Yeah. Attack on House of Trades in many, many, many. many, many movies. That's the climax. That's the conclusion, the grand battle. The story, though, and this is something that I think we'll discuss as we talk about like the book and why we love it a little bit more later, but just to hit it now, there is this balance throughout the story

of like the grand and the intimate. And that's one of the things that I've always loved about it. And so when you pan out to something massive, you can kind of always count on like zooming back in. And so, and again, this is just, like, for me personally, I think it's completely fine if this didn't work for other people as well. I liked, like, ending on that smaller, quieter note focused on Paul and this next step in his journey and how in some ways you're, like, tempted to think that he's moving on this hero's journey and hero's arc, though,

we will talk about at length today, it is much more complex, deliberately so, than that. And there's this ominous weight. And I think the shrinking down allows you to feel the ominous weight of that in a way that I really liked, because that's one of the aspects of the story that I find so, like, brilliant. I completely agree with you. I don't think it should have ended with, like, any sort of big, splashy thing. But if you think again, and fellowship is not necessarily like a fair comparison, because that's the end of a book versus the middle of a book or whatever. But like, with fellowship, I think maybe you could think the obvious ending would be like the Balrague sort of confrontation, like the Kazadun, like all of that sort of stuff. You shall not flame of wood on.

But like, but like I think that then taking it into this like skirmish in the woods is that sort of a smaller stakes sort of feeling. And you have Frodo and Sam like, you know, looking off. Like the comparisons are not unfair. They're very clear comparisons. And so I just, I don't know. I want to think about it more, I guess, is how I feel about it now. Okay. And I think, again, it's also one of those things that we'll probably all have more clarity

on if we are fortunate enough to get future installments and see how all of this fits together. And knowing that Paul is now moving forward with Chani, with the Fremen, into this new part of the journey, I just really hope we get that movie. You know, one other one other thing I wanted to note is like structurally in terms of how the film was crafted and Paul's dreams and visions are stitched throughout the entire movie. I thought that that worked. I mean, obviously it works and it is essential in terms of the story and the character arc and what we are learning about Paul and his abilities and his burdens. But structurally, I thought it was just so smart because it's big.

Basically, like, with the important caveat that we shouldn't, as we learn inside of part one, trust everything we see or believe that it will unfold exactly in that fashion, of course. It almost serves as a trailer inside of part one for part two, right? Here are all of these things that you, as the characters as well, can expect, anticipate, dread what that you've seen should you believe will unfold? what should you doubt? How does that doubt impact you, as it does? Paul, Jessica, et cetera, as it permeates this, like, weight of expectation is so heavy

in both like a metatextual sense and inside of the story. And I just loved that. It kind of serves two functions. Like, first of all, of course, it puts Zendaya in the movie in a way that she wouldn't be if we went sort of strictly by the book. He does dream of her in the book. but, like, you know, they really, like, laced that in a lot. Tell me about your home world, Ussel.

Like, they laced it in in a way that they cut together some deceptive. I will say, like, if people were, like, coming and expecting Zendaya, as the trailers promised her, she would be to be. Like, they even use this really deceptive, like, line from, from Duck in Idaho in a trailer that I've seen a bunch of times, which is just sort of like, it's a line that's not even the film. but I think he's supposed to be talking about Jessica, but it's like it's cut to make you think he's talking about Shawnee. Anyway, that all comes in there. And then it also sort of serves as this kind of echo of this device they use in the books, which is every single chapter opens with like the teachings,

the learnings of the Maldib. Like you have this sense of the future running through the book. And it's in the David Lynch film. you get Virginia Madsen's like disembodied voice like say like uttering these things and and I'm glad that we'll get to this voiceover stuff but like I'm glad that they cut that I'm glad they cut all that but they kept this sort of like pretentious future hanging over everything I loved it I loved the visions and as you say I love the unreliable nature of the visions because Paul Paul sees all paths of the future not just the one path yeah exactly what while we're here and talking about

pace and end points. Gotta ask. And I hope this isn't, you know, sacrilege to all the movie lovers out there, but it's on our minds. And we got a lot of mailbag questions about this. We're going to be doing more mailbag questions later today, but we'll also stitch some as we go when they're directly connected to something we're talking about.

Here's just one. This is from Ernie said, would this have been better as a six-episode series? I thought it was beautiful. Absolutely enjoyed it. But somehow I thought it would give me more than what I got from the book and I found that I got less. Should this version of Dune have been a TV show?

I've been thinking a lot about this. Obviously, like a lot of people have had this question, have had this thought. I even had this thought at one point. And I mean, can we pull it forward now, this part we were planning to talk about later, which is like what we were missing? And I'll just say there's like a lot of palace intrigue stuff

that's missing. a lot of like time passed as they're on like because this feels like they're on a raucous for like a week and then the attack comes right but they're on a raucous for a while there's there's suspicion there's a lot more like you get more dr ua you get like all this sort of stuff and like um i would have loved to spend more time with those characters with duncan i know with whatever um and so in that way i do but that i've been thinking about these big based on properties or not sort of genre shows that we've been getting lately like Foundation or I've seen some episodes of invasion and stuff like that. And I'm just sort of like, I don't know, there's a part of me that

really likes that this is a movie. And, you know, yes, we'll get another movie and maybe we'll even get a third movie and all that sort of stuff like that. But like, I don't know. I agree. Like the miniseries is where we're tending more and more with these adaptations. But there's something that I really appreciate about, Denneville, Nive being like, no, we're going to make a movie, a couple movies, maybe, but a movie. What do you think, Melanie? Yeah, I've twisted myself into knots with this one. I think I landed in the same place.

I tend to, I love movies. I love movies, but I tend to gravitate toward TV adaptations just because of the time. And I feel exactly the same way, like the palace intrigue aspects in particular, just the rhythm of the. the day and falling into the routine and the life on Arachus and all of the interplay among the various power brokers and like learning more, for example, about the inner, you know, anxieties and driving forces for a character like the Duke, like Ledo, who is in the movie a lot, but we don't learn nearly as much about as you do in a book or as you would in a TV show.

And so of course, like my instinct is to say I'd love the six or eight or ten-hour version of Dune, of course. And we should say, like, there have been television miniseries versions of Dune before. We'll talk about some of the adaptations a bit more in a couple minutes. In general, what I love to see, a present-day version of Dune as a miniseries. Yes. The Villeneuve version, I'm glad, is a movie, of course. because he is such a miraculous and visually arresting filmmaker. And so because this is two hours and 36 minutes and also part one, I'm just like, all right,

that's still like going to net out around the six hour mark when it's all said and done into it. But I, you know, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I think that the version we're getting is really tremendous and I'm glad that we have it. do I always want more of everything? Yeah, I'm greedy, you know? That's the barren inside of me, I guess. That's what we all know about you, you're the grittiest person. We don't know. And I just, I think it's, I don't know, time will tell. Again, this is just sort of like, let's see how it all pans out, which is maybe a frustrating way to offer an opinion. But I'm, I'm delighted to wait and see. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long. The other, I don't know if it's a critique. It's just like sort of a question mark that I've seen.

sort of passed around here. So when we talk about casting this movie, an incredible cast as we talked about, if you look at things like the David Lynch version of this, it's also got an incredible cast, but it is an overwhelmingly white cast, right? Like, even characters like Dr. Yue, who speaks Mandarin, like, in this movie, is played by Dean Stockwell. Great, great actor, but like, and then, like, Sean Young is playing Chani. It's, like, a very white cast. And Denisov has decided to, like, make this a bit more interesting, a bit more representational of, like, what entire galaxy would look like. But as it shakes out, is that, like, much of the people of color in this cast are in the Fremen camp, not one-to-one. You know, you've got, like, Javier Bardem, who's Spanish and, you know, Zendaya, et cetera.

But it's led some people to have a question about Politratius as. a white young man coming into, this is like shades of, you know, DeNaris coming in with a Dothraki and stuff like that. Like, what is that,

how is that all going to play out in the end? My sense is that, I mean, I would prefer this to an overwhelmingly white cast, first of all, but secondly, my sense is that

Deneville knows exactly what he's doing here, especially since it opens with Zendaya's, as Chani's voiceover, her line of who will our next oppressor be, like that sort of question mark in there. And then also he has said in interviews that when it comes to part two, he wants to make Chani basically the protagonist of that film. So if you're worried that Zendaya's barely in this movie, I would just encourage you to go

rewatch the Spider-Man movies and notice that she's barely at home coming to, like, lay the track of what's to come, and that like this will be from her point of view and her skepticism, which is different than how really how Chani approaches Paul, where she's like, I don't really think you're the Māori and stuff like that. Like, I think that healthy skepticism, which is the kind of attitude we love from a Zendaya character, like gives us some indication of what he plans to do with this storyline. So I am, you know, I hear the worry and I think it's good to keep an eye on, but I'm also encouraged by what I've seen so far that that is not the story to Neville-No's going to tell

And I don't think he's coming into this unaware of what the optics might be. What do you think, no? Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you mentioned that opening because, again, like, it would have been very easy to just open with Paul or Lato or Jessica on Caledon. But we don't. We open with Chani and that line. Why did the emperor choose this path and who will our next oppressor be? is the opening note for the entire, not only movie, but what we all hope, including the filmmaker, will become an entire franchise. And that feels very intentional. I agree with you. Her voice,

the Fremen perspective, the morally founded judgment against any sort of, like, might is right incursion. That is the foundation for this entire adaptation. Here's hoping. That's my hope. Before we dive further into the plot of the movie, should we talk about more about the book, how it came to be, what inspired it, what it inspired our personal connections to the story, all of it? Yes. Let's do it. Let's do it. The first part of this is a discovery, I mean, I guess it was a known quantity, but I didn't know this. And it was a discovery I made while I was trying to figure out, I was talking to my really good friend who started. studied Arabic in college and she was like taking me through some of the words that are in the, in the book and the film and what they mean in Arabic and sort of how much, um, Islamic,

Middle Eastern culture, Arabic language is in this. And I was trying to figure out, I was like, why did Frank Herbert go, you know, he's an extremely white man from the Pacific Northwest. Like, why was like, what was this to focus? Did he study this? Whatever. Um, what was, what was the inspiration here? And then I found out incredibly that an article that he was writing on the Sand Dunes of Oregon was the origin story for Dune. And it was like an article, I think he never wound up publishing. But he just got really into studying sand dunes. And that was what in the grass.

The grass in the dunes. Yeah. It was just like wild to me. You know, like a scientific article. And like I think that I was talking to a really good, well, a guy I knew in college. And he was sort of DMing me this weekend. He's like, you know, I got embarrassed in my, you know, intro class in college. the professor asked us to bring our favorite book,

and I said my favorite book was Dune. And he asked me why. And I, like, fumbled. I didn't know how to answer. And I said, I identified with the main character. He's like, you identify with a Prussian Messiah sort of thing. And he's like, the real reason was the science. And my friend, he's an ecologist now.

But, like, scientists love this book because there's all this, like, ecology in it, along with all the politics and all this other stuff, like the mulage, the spice, the worm, the like all, you know, all the things working together to create this environment is a big part of the book that like, you know, D'Neil Nive and his wisdom is not going to go into too much. We got some of those like fun little documentaries that Paul was watching. But like, I just think that that's such an interesting element of Dune and where it came from. Yeah, the other clear influence drug use. So you can trace a direct line from, you know, an affinity for the old magic mushroom to the hallucinogenic powers of good old spice malange. It's true.

That's true. But yeah, Frank Herbert's Dune published in 1965. And Herbert, of course, went on to write six novels. The Dune saga is that. and sprawling beyond that. Brian Herbert, Kevin J. Anderson, have continued it. How did you first come to Dune? What's your Dune origin story?

My June origin story is that my sister, who I look up to in every way possible, and definitely just followed her lead through our reading journey as kids, read all of Dune, all the Dune books. And I distinctly remember us being in some, like, hotel somewhere or motel on, like, a family trip, and she's reading Dune.

And I'm like, what's that? What's that? And I wanted to know. And I was, you know, I was just the annoying younger siblings. That's definitely how I got into Dune was like just trying to be my sister. How about you? Also a family story. For me, my dad gifted me Dune when I was in college and came with a lovely little inscription on the inside cover that I have been looking at a lot this weekend while prepping for this spot. and just like the flooded with memories and I texted you a picture of it last night. Hilariously, I texted my dad a picture of it and he was like very touched but also then immediately was like, I wonder why I chose that exact like turn of phrase in that particular spot of the inscription. It was very funny. Parsing the language. He's the best.

But, you know, I had fallen like late high school, early college deep into my fandom, like, with Harry Potter and everything else. It was just reading, reading, couldn't get enough of these stories. And when my dad gave me this, I was like, all right, I got to check this out. I can't wait to read it. And I just loved it.

I loved it so much right away. I started recommending it to my friends. In fact, I had a fun moment also this weekend where I was catching up with my college roommates, Cuse on Zoom, and asked, we were talking about, like, who had read Dune? And one of my great pals, Taylor was like, well, I read it because you told me to in college.

You're like, from telling all. of us to read it. It was just, it was so, it was so fun to just think back on like falling into the world for the first time. And, you know, there are so many things I love about the story. Like, it's obviously a seminal sci-fi story that like soft sci-fi where, yes, the science and this is certainly an ecological and environmental story and that's at the heart of it is paired with the human story. And it's a adventure story. It's a coming of age story. It's an exploration story. I think we'll put a pin in this here and come back to the It's a Chosen One story.

Heavy asterisk on it and circle back to that later because it's a interrogation of that, ultimately, in a very complex layered hero's journey and then subversion that not only like tracks the arc, but really examines how and why such legends and myths come to be and how they can be exploited, which I think is one of the things we both really love about. it. I love the style of the story so much, like the epigraphs that you mentioned, you know, the in-world texts being exerted at the top of each chapter in that epigraph form to set the tone for what is going to unfold, but also serves to just give you such a deeper understanding of like, it just brings the world to life, right? I always love that in stories when a text from inside

of the fictional universe is quoted or cited because it just, it fleshes out the fullness. Oh, these are the things that the people who inhabit this universe read, just like I am reading this book. It just brings it all so fully to life. And, you know, also like on the stylistic front, I mean, this has proven to be complex when it comes to adapting the story. But inside of the book, you know, the shifting perspectives, the use of inner monologue where you are moving in and out of various points of view across the span of sentences sometimes, not even just chapters, right? It's so intricate. And just the fully realized world, you know, Iraqis, the spice. There's this, like, great passage that I always love so much when Jessica says that it tastes like cinnamon.

And Dr. U.A. says, but never twice the same. It's like life. It presents a different face each time you take it. Like, I just love that idea. And the book is full of that idea is about perspective and growth and evolution and change. Like the Fremen, the way the story examines gender and religion. and politics and culture. It's just, it's such a rich story,

and I had such fun rereading it and revisiting it. It had been a really long time since I read it. And it just, like, it just gripped me right away from page one again. I will say that I think that I have heard from some folks trying to pick it up for the first time in adulthood, that there feels like some kind of barrier of entry that might be eased by watching the movie first. But there's a lot of terminology right off the bat

that you're like, what's a mentat? What's a Gomja Bar? What's this? What's that? You know, that can feel overwhelming for someone. I think also I heard from a friend of mine who was trying to read it that he was like, he was like, is this a bad book? And another friend of ours was like, it's not a bad book.

It's just so many people have stolen from it that maybe you're thinking it feels more basic than it actually is because it's actually the blueprint. And so this is where I would love to talk about some of the things that like Dune has inspired because that happens at the time where you watch the thing that. then inspired all these other things, all these other spins on it. And you're like, well, what's this basic bitch doing? What's this pumpkin spice latte of pumpkin spice lattes are delicious, by the way? Anyway.

So like here's what stole or borrowed liberally or was inspired by Dune, right? Star Wars. Okay, right? And Denevolna feels very aware of this as he gives Paul like a binary sunset moment. He gives him a like use the force Luke. your instruments away moment, like all this stuff that's not really in the book that he, like, just sort of borrowed back from Star Wars. But the Jedi Mind Trick is just the voice, you know what I mean?

The Sarlack, the Spice Runners, the Desert Planets, the Chosen Boys. Like, all of this is like George Lucas, very illiberally inspired by Dune. Game of Thrones, something. I don't know if you've ever read the books Game of Thrones, Mallory. Warring houses. There's so much Duke Lido Atreides and Ned Stark, a good father reluctantly taking a dangerous job that he can't refuse,

this idea that honor will not save you in the end, the Dothraki, like all this stuff. The madness of mercy. Yeah, just all this stuff just like airported over from Dune, Harry Potter, the last, Avatar, the last air banner. Miyazaki, Naseka in the Valley of the Wind is like heavily, heavily, heavily,

Dune inspired. I put Jurassic Park in here because when I was rewatching and Dr. UA puts like turns the shields off I was like oh it's Nedri leaving the freaking gates off in the rain here come the here come the dinosaurs

Wheel of Time something we will be talking about in a future episode huge dude influence like there's these you know this group of powerful women that are very inspired by the Ben and Jesuit stuff like that there's another sort of desert warrior race etc and then of course on the

wormfront. I cannot talk about Dune and not talk about one of my favorite films of all times, which is tremors. So, you know, tremors, beetle juice, all this sort of stuff. This is all stuff. And that's just a short list. There's so much that was inspired by taken from Dune. So, like, I really understand that if someone has dwelt too long in those worlds to come back to this original. But there is, I would argue, and I have a piece up on the site about this today, there's an added twist of this chosen one story, as you said, we'll talk about it, that like the people who copy paste their heroes from Paul didn't pour over that same critique, which I think is a really interesting thing that's missing from some of these copycats.

So, yeah, that's great, great, great points. What a rundown. Boy, I love that because I think while I can see how that might be. be an initial barrier to entry or, oh, this feels like derivative of a certain thing. Hopefully, ultimately that richness will unfold for viewers and eventually readers alike. And, you know, I feel like I've said the words seminal text a lot, but they really are so apt here. I mean, it is a blueprint and a template for so much, not only of like what we really enjoy and

stories that are really meaningful and interesting to us, but what has become this mass swath of modern day pop culture, like so many of those roots trace back the length of a sandworm to Dune. You know, we got a lot, again, more mailback to come at the end of the pod, but I want to mention here that we got a lot of questions. comparing Dune to some of these other stories or comparing Paul to other characters. Like here's just a couple. Lauren asked is Paul da-da-da-d-de-neo?

And Rachel asked, would this have been made or received well without the success of Game of Thrones? They're not a one-to-one comparison, but distinct family houses, the political intrigue, the impending coming of a Messiah. Having had GOT has to have made this a little easier to accept for general audiences. So interesting because that would never have occurred to me given that Dune was like a part of my life before Thrones. But for so many people, that is not the case. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, you know, as you know,

I've been thinking a lot about 20 years ago when Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings premiered. That's been something that I've been like, that moment in history is something that I, the films, have been thinking about. And when I think about those, I think about it as this like long tale sort of, I think a generation growing up on Harry Potter, like a generation of readers growing up on Harry Potter, the books and then the films, like is incalculably important for the success of these various things.

I don't think you get thrones without those like Potterheads. You don't get Thrones without Lord of the Rings. You don't get Lord of the Rings without like Star Wars, like all this sort of stuff. It's just been building and building and building in our culture. And so I agree that. I mean, I don't think Denevolnav gets Dune greenlit without Thrones. Like, I think he could make a, you know, I could see him pitching Warner Bros. And being like, House of Traities, House Harkinen, these are their sigils, these are their people. You know what I mean? Like, it's really easy to see how that could get this project made in the first place and could get people to understand. I mean, I even had another friend of mine who's like a culture writer who was trying to read Dune before the film and you never read it. He was like, he's like, do you know what I've read it?

all the Thrones books. Like, I can usually follow, like, houses and intrigues and plots and all and stuff like that. And he's like, I'm having trouble with this. And I'm like, keep going. I think, I think you'll fall into it. Yeah, I think it's definitely there. I think it greases the wheels. And as for Lauren's question of, is Paul Neo, my response on Twitter was strike that reverse it. Like, Neo is Paul, right? Like, that's, you know, Buffy is Paul. You know, Ang is Paul, Kora is Paul, all that sort of stuff. So, yeah. I think that's a nice transition into why Hollywood is so drawn to Dune, but also why it's been so hard to nail.

Because it's interesting to hear you say that about Bill Nouve, like, pitching this and the role that Thrones would have played because, of course, we've seen Dune adaptations before, but they're fraught. Right? Like, I think of the quote from the story, the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve,

but a reality to experience. And that's how I think of doing. Like, whenever people talk about how it's unfilmable or the challenges, I was like, man, but it's just like, let's flow with it. Let's flow with this story and just find a way to like live in the world. But of course, that's a very easy thing to think from the comfort of my home with like a, you know, a worn copy of the story in my hand in the movie on my screen for the people who are in charge of making mass.

blockbuster hits that are going to generate a lot of money and also maybe win some of those Oscars you've been talking about, the calculus is more rigorous and cruel and exacting. Why has Hollywood been so drawn to the story in the first place and why has it been such a challenge to nail? Drawn to initially, we've got some earlier efforts, as we mentioned, the David Lynch 1984 effort. to make Dune, a film that is. Yeah, what's your, what's your relationship to that movie? I had a, I had a gentleman friend show to me at like 1 a.m. after, like, a long night of

partying and drinking. He's like, let's watch Lynch's Dune. Kind of an ideal scenario to watch it for the first time. And then I've watched it a couple times since. And I do have fondness for aspects of it, but I do think overall, I mean, there's incredible people show up in that movie, Max von Sito, Patrick Stewart, et cetera, et cetera. But like, um, sting. But stings there in his metal diaper. But like, but it's, um, it's a messy film that David Lynch himself was really unhappy with because he didn't get final cut.

There were other cuts released that he got his name taken off of. Like that, you know, like that's, that's a really troubled production. But, you know, a lot of people have a fondness for its wildness and its ambition. And I kind of see that. He's also trying to shove the entire book into one movie. It's a lot. And he's really focusing on this otherworldliness, whereas something that I think, and we'll get into this more. But like, something that I think Villeneuve's version does so well, you know, this is a universe based on our own.

It's the future of our own society. And so, like, what he does really well is, I think of the first shot of Caledan, which is like you just see this fog blanket and then lightning storms in the So it feels like otherworldly, but it, but not outside the realm of our understanding in a way that if you had started maybe on like the Harkinen home planet or something like that, you would be like, what, you know, what is this like aggressively sci-fi thing? We're starting in like, we understand sandy dunes and we understand like foggy, rainy planets and stuff like that. Like these are things that feel anchored our own. David Lynch is like, we're going big and it's going weird and wild and that's that's the whole thing. And I just think that it's so foundational for so many people. So many people loved it.

And then you think about the new generation of people who are making films now. You think about like J.J. Abrams and Bad Robot and all the folks who make films, the people who are making Star Wars now, the people who are making Star Trek now are fans who grew up. The people are making Marvel now are fans who grew up with this thing. And so I think that that is part of it's the genre nerdy fans who are like running Hollywood at this point. So that's, that's all a part of it. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I have a lot of like fondness for that movie. It is obviously just supremely, supremely strange. And the surreal aspects of it and the grotesque aspects of it are really like heightened,

you know, heart plugs and all of the boils on the Barron's face, etc. I, like, it's something that my husband and I have like a lot of fun watching. We just rewatched it. and he loves to quote that movie. He's just so weird. And he, like, constantly walks around saying, Ussel no longer needs the weirding module. That's just like a thing he says. Yeah, classic.

Totally normal. Sears from a marriage. Yeah, yeah. The bit lives on. But it's a very strange movie, and I certainly think that this new version is more to my personal liking. but I do have a fondness for the Lynch film in every few years. It's just a riot and a really good time to pop it on and return to it.

Great, great pug work in that movie, yeah. Yes. There's Jodorowski's Doom, of course, which is like a doomed never, never was production with great concept art. There's a great documentary about, you know, I love a documentary about a film that never was. That's a good time. And there's like a couple sci-fi TV miniseries, as you mentioned.

I would love to share a quote with you. You know, it feels not only illuminating as we as we discuss all of this, but it's just something that I feel like really applies to the making of this podcast here. Is it about James McAvoy's shirtlessness in the sci-fi miniseries? No. No. It's about it's about runtime. Okay. Sarah Kurchak had a great piece on time about the history of attempting to adapt Dune.

And here's a quote. This is so funny. Chaturowski's producers wanted something under two hours. He preferred something in the 10 to 14 hour range. It's like every pre-production meeting with Steve. Wow. Steve, you should have that tattooed on you somewhere. Oh, boy.

Mallory preferred 10 to 14 hours. Oh, good stuff. So there's some options. And like, I mean, we should say, we talked about like the possibility of more Dune probability. Yes. How big can the Dune IP expanded universe become? That's sort of what literally what the Warner Brothers executives have been saying when they're asked about this. They're like, what can Dune do for us though?

And like, you know, there's, there's, I always want to like, follow. the Fyggy model, which is like walk before you run and don't like, don't get, like, don't balloon it up until you know what you have. And I think in this film, they, they maybe have a better sense of what they have. But like the original plan was for this prequel TV series, Dune, Colin the Sisterhood, was already supposed to be in production. And it was delayed, I've heard, this isn't like official news. I heard there was like they didn't even have the rights to do this and And they just plow it ahead. I love the way you just put your hand on the side of your face, like, so conspiratorial.

Like, only the six people on the Zoom will hear. Come into the shadows. I have some secrets to tell you. From a podcast. Yeah. So John Spates, who's one of those credited screenwriters on this film, was the showrunner of Dune, colon, the sisterhood. And that, they had a writer's room and everything, and it just, like, shut down. Ring reverse, colon, the sisterhood.

Right here. Yes. Yes. And I was told it was because they didn't, they just plowed ahead without having the rights. But if that was an issue, they worked it out because they now have a new showrunner. They're back in the habit. And they're making Dune Cole in the Sisterhood, the prequel series that has to do with the Benajasor. So that's interesting.

And then Deney has said that he wants to do a trilogy of films, perhaps. So there's part one, part two. And then he said there is Dune's second book, The Messiah of Dune, which could make an extraordinary film. I always saw that there could be a trilogy. After that, we'll see it's years of work. I can't think of going further than that because I will just say that eventually there's like human worm hybrids

that might be harder to make happen on the big screen. So, yeah. Dude Messiah would be great to adapt, though. That would be really fun. It's just God emperor that I'm like not sure we want to get to. So we'll see. It's a few books away still. But yeah, I mean, they're sitting on a rich

spice bed of IP here. And, you know, whoever controls the spice controls the universe and whoever controls the IP. Like, that's where you want to be. They have something here. I just hope they keep making it. I really do. Oh, but I don't want to harp too much on the future

and get lost in our visions. Let's talk more about the movie we actually got. Oh, yeah. I wish to move to be mindful and live in the present. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer. unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner.

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regarding the book and the story for Villeneuve. What's your history with his films and your fandom with his films coming into Dune? I think you and I talked about this a little bit on the hype breakdown that we did, but in case folks didn't listen to that, like, I'm a big Villeneuve fan. I love Arrival. I love Blade Runner. And we, you know, you and I talked about we love enemy. We love Sicario.

It doesn't even have to be sci-fi for us to love. Chris Ryan voice. Scario! But I think that, like, he's, again, a very slow burn. And you just have to have patience and sort of flow with what the story that he wants to tell you. But as for his sci-fi, like, just the spaceship design alone, like, is incomparable. There's just something about his take on a sci-fi world that feels so otherworldly but so grounded in the here and now. I thought Blade Runner was just an absolutely gorgeous film.

But, you know, a lot of people were like, that was boring. It was slow. And I was like, I want to, it's slow. He's a slow, slow fella. That's, that's his thing. I don't know. What do you think? I love his movies.

I mean, all the ones you said, enemy, Scario Arrival, later on or all of them, I, I think he's, he's one of my favorite directors. And, you know, as you just said, it's not just sci-fi, but I think he, he is just an absolute genius when it comes to adapting sci-fi stories, you know, arrival for, you example is based on an absolutely gorgeous short story, story of your life, which I love. And he just has, you know, it's so cool to hear him talk about his Dune fandom and like how he discovered the book when he was a kid and how much it meant him because I think it's, it's like so of a piece with, and like I am not capable of making a movie like this to be clear.

But one of the things that I think is sort of a through line of our. discussions here on the pod and many people's discussions around these stories is like, do the creators understand why people love the story, you know, at the most fundamental level, why they are drawn to it, why it is meaningful to them, why Game of Thrones fans, for example, care about certain characters in the way they do and how that might impact their feelings about the ending, et cetera, just to throw out one example. He loves this story as a fan first, and that is just so palpable as you watch this movie and as you watch his films. And I love them and I think they're beautiful. And I'm so glad he made this movie and that we got to see his version of Dune.

I'm also glad that we got to see this cast. Did you have a favorite performance? I mean, there's so many to choose from. What an incredible cast. I have a few. But I think walking away I'm thinking about it. My MVP is Rebecca Ferguson as Jessica. I think that there were some adaptive changes made to Jessica that made her a more emotional, more humane figure. And I thought that her humanity, her fear for her son,

all that sort of stuff, I think made the film feel more lived in than it might otherwise feel. Because like some of these characters and we'll get, well, we'll get to some of the problems. But like that warmth, I think, was important, and I think that applies to your pick as well. What's your pick?

This is like almost, this is so on brand. It's a great pick, though. I can't, I don't disagree with it. Duncan I know. Bamboa. I mean, this is just an incredible performance. He was, I wasn't sure how much he'd be in the movie. Yeah. But he's in it a lot. Not enough. I mean, I want the spin off. Like, give me those four weeks with the Fremen, please. As a little a side journey. I would love that. I thought that the bond and the friendship between Paul and Duncan was like one of the real highlights of the movie. Not only the like jovial shorthand put on some, put on some muscle that I did, no, but the trust, you know, the trust, you know,

the way that Paul confides in Duncan about the dreams that he's been having and shares even what he saw about Duncan with him. Like there is just a history that you instantly understand and absorb between these two characters without having seen it. You understand how much they mean to each other. And then to watch that morph, not that the affection ever leave, but when the attack unfolds and Lato is killed, and then you get that moment of reverence, right?

My Duke, like kissing the ring, bending the knee, and you feel so fully the shift, specifically because of the characters that you're watching that unfold between. And then, of course, like the last stand. What an amazing sequence, a great battle sequence. He just has a movie series, star charisma and quality in every single scene he's in in the movie. He's just so good. I loved him.

I think it is actually, and I'm a Moa fan in general, I think it is far in away his best performance. I think he's incredible in this. And he's just like, he's just drawing your focus, like his escape from Iraqi, like all of that sort of stuff is just like drawing your focus. He's, he's fantastic. And I think both of us are actually are making similar points because I was asking my sister, my sister, who has like two small children, so never makes it to the movie theater, made it for Dune because of her, like, lifelong love for this property.

And I asked her, I was like, well, what did you love most about the books and, like, did you see it reflected in the films? And she's like, what I love most about the books is the training of Paul Otrides. And I do feel like that, you know, and so, like, as we watched Paul go on his journey, it reminds me of that great moment in Thrones when Aria and Brian are sparring in a later,

in the last season of Thrones, right? And they have that spar in the courtyard of Winterfell, and you see all of Arias teachers in her various moves. And like, you see this with Paul, too, in this film. Like, he does the, like, sort of knife blade to the forehead move that Duncan does right before he dies. He does it right before he fights in the end. You see what he learned from Gurney-Holic.

You see what he learned from his mom. Like, these are his teachers, and they all influence who Paul is and why he is able to take all. on the leadership position that he is able to take on. It's just like that. But Paul himself, and this is, I think, a good place to talk about this, Paul himself is a tough character to care about because he is,

not just because of our, like, we've seen this chosen one thing a million times over, especially in the book, like, he gets very disassociated from his humanity as his powers awake. So having people around him who care about him, Jessica, Duncan, Gurney, like all these people who are care about him and are protective of him helps us care about him. I've heard some critiques of Timothy Chalemay's performance in this role, some critiques of Paul as a passive figure, all the sort of stuff like that. I actually think Denny Villeneuve made some changes to make Paul more active, like more involved in his escape, more involved in that like evacuation of the spice crew. Like in the book, Paul is just like cowering in the corner. And here he's like kind of helping before he gets spice distracted.

So Paul, I just think is like a tough character. So to give us that, to give us like Stilgar's sort of grudging admiration for him, to give us eventually Chani's relationship with like all that sort of stuff is just only going to help us care about Paul to give us all these great people who care about him. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's a great point. It is a tough character. I loved Timmy's performance.

I loved Timmy's Paul. I thought he really nailed it. And he has that, like, one of the things I was trying to keep in mind, and obviously character ages, change, and adaptations all the time. But in the book, Paul is supposed to be 15 when we first meet him and begin our journey with him. 15. He's a kid. And the abilities that he has, but also the wisdom that he has and how often he catches people off guard with an insight or a query is so central to. to who he is. And like, there's that line from the Reverend Mother and the film about how he has

these two birth rights, right? So there's the, like, the Duke gold training of House of Trades. And then there's, of course, everything from his mother, Jessica, the Benny Jesuit. And that's not even a lot of just plot, but like a lot of vibes and energy to be able to establish in a movie and to do so quickly because you have to understand all of the different influences in Paul's life, but also all of them, the polls on his, his, his, his, his course of action moving forward and his future. And, you know, like a moment that I loved was the scene with Paul and Jessica and she wants him to use, this is very early in the film, she wants him to use the voice to make her past the water. And he's like, mom, I just woke up. Like, he's like, but he's

like, mom, I just woke up. He's got like the whisper, the whisper. And then of course, you pair like a moment like that with gurney's, you know, what's mood to do with it lesson. And then you arrive at a moment toward the very end of the film when Paul does answer the challenge in the duel with Jammis. And what's what's mood to do with it? You think he's not in the mood for that, right? But there's duty, there's necessity. There are all of the different.

on a person's life inside of this story. And so I thought that that was actually all, it's a very hard thing to do, but I thought it came across, it came across pretty well. So when I saw the screening of Dune, I was at a festival screening, so Denis was there,

and there was a Q&A with him afterwards, and the moderator, not my favorite moderator, but the moderator was like, I was really surprised, you cast him with Shelby, so skinny, like, what is he going to do? He's not a heroic figure type or whatever,

terrible moderator. But to Neville-Lenose answer was really good. I'll paraphrase it with the words of the MENTAT Britney Spears. Paul is not a girl, not yet a woman. He's like, the thing I love about Timothy Chalemay is that he is like, Paul is a boy on the verge of manhood. And so, like, the first shot we get of Paul very much highlights his, like, you know, Timothy Chalmey's in his 20s, but like very much highlights his, like,

boyish, like body and figure as he gets up in bed, right? And stuff like that. He's just sort of like he's on the verge of something. And that's what he wants to give us with this Paul. Paul is not a fully formed man. He's not a child. He's someone right on the edge of something. And I think in that way physically, as well as sort of temperament wise, this is a really good Paul. And a Paul that makes a lot more sense than with much love and respect to Kyle McLaughlin. It doesn't make as much sense because he looks like a man, right? So, you know, we're expecting him to not behave like a boy, and sometimes he behaves like a boy because Paul is a boy, you know?

So it's this whole stuff. There's also really interesting some choices in terms. I already mentioned, like, Rebecca Ferguson and his Jessica that I really liked. But like this idea that Vinlou had of like, well, especially since we're not getting Chani for most of the film and stuff like that, what am I going to do to make sure that this isn't like sausage fend? on Aracus, right? And so, like, he gives, he gives Jessica a bit more to do, I think. And then he gender swapped Dr. Kines.

Dr. Kinez, yeah. Which I thought was, like, a great performance. A great performance. Yeah. Great performance. So I think, like, his focus on these things of making sure that the women feel as, like, proactive and empowered as they can, I think, is a really good, adaptive update. And then I want to talk about the barrens.

which is actually a critique I have. The Baron's really tough again because this is actually part of the novel that I dislike the most because Herbert does a couple of things that I really don't like. First, his, like, obsession with the Baron's, like, physicality bothers me. And then also the Baron is, like, is gay. And that is, like, highlighted as perverse the way that it is done in the book. And Villeneuve has said, like, I'm not going to do this sort of, like, gay pederest sort of stuff that, like, he's like, it doesn't age well.

and I'm not going to do it. He has said that. And also in terms of, like, the way that he used the prosthetics on Sel and Sarasgard and this, I thought was really good because it's, like, if you watch the Lynch film, it's like, it is tough stuff. But I thought this was just, like, this is just really, the Baron still feels, like, strong.

Like, he's big and he's, like, you know, all this sort of stuff, but also, like, intimidating, especially with, like, the suspensers that he wears that, like, bring him up in the air and stuff like that. So I thought all of that stuff was really good. But the thing you miss, and maybe we'll get in in part two, is that like the baron is a political genius. He's a mastermind. He's playing everyone five ways a Sunday.

And you don't really, you know, don't really get that in this version. So that's an element that I did miss. What do you think? Yeah. Josh Rotenberg in the LA Times had a piece on the differences between the film and the book and he interviewed Vilnau for this piece and the fact that the Harkinens will be in a second installment

more if we do get one is one of the things he talked about. Quote, this movie is really focused on Paul and I brought in a little bit of the Harkonans just for context to understand the geopolitics of the story. This movie just gives a little glimpse into the Harkinens. The second movie is much more about them.

So I think we can safely assume that we'll be getting that if we do, in fact, get the movie. while we're on the topic of the baron though, I think that's a good opportunity to segue into the sounds for a little bit to just the overall soundscape of the film, the sound effects and sound design,

the score. One of my favorite sound design elements in the entire movie is the sound that the spinal harness makes when it is activating. Like that, I mean, I would try to do it, but I could just like, holy shit. Yeah.

The best use of sound to achieves inside of these films, of course, to help not only bring the world into fuller focus, but the characters, is that then as soon as you hear it, that sense of foreboding. Like, if you hear the Imperial March, you know you're about to get Vader, right? So if you hear that sound effect activate, you know that something nefarious with the Baron is about to unfold. It was just so effective. I thought overall the sound design and the scoring in the film were, like, sensational and

just really heightened the experience. Beyond. And, like, what's interesting is that, you know, as you mentioned, Villeneuve has talked about how much of a fan he was since a kid, since he was a kid of the book. He was like, and then I asked Han Zimmer if he wanted to make some music. Sorry, I don't know why he was German because he's obviously like French. But anyway, and Han Zimmer is a huge massive fan of Dune. You know, it's, you throw a stone in Hollywood, you hit a massive fan of Dune. And so Hans Zimmer just, like, left at the chance to do this.

And for those, I mean, I've been listening to the score. kind of nonstop. But what's wild is that there's like three whole ass albums on Spotify or elsewhere. There's the original motion picture soundtrack. There's the Art and Soul of Doom, which is an album you are supposed to listen to while you read this art book that they put out for Dune. There's like this whole Hans Zimmer album. And then the Dune sketchbook, which is like variations on the theme, like him figuring out variations on the theme. So you've got like three whole albums that you could listen to.

To my utter desolation, Mondo put out a vinyl, a three-disc vinyl of the Dune soundtrack that I missed before it sold out. But like, if anyone has a spare one lying around that they want to let me know about, I would kill to have it. But yeah, the soundtrack to this is just incredible. And as you pointed out, I mean, I don't want to bite on your point. But, like, as you pointed out here, like, they wanted to make something as iconic as Star Wars, but sound nothing like Star Wars, which is so hard to do. The Williams of it all is so in our mind. And I think they just really succeeded with this, you know? Yeah, like there's a, there's one of the future ads on HBO Max is called celestial sounds.

And it was so interesting to hear Zimmer most of all, but, you know, everybody talk about attempting to craft this and, like, needing to. create new instruments that would just have a new sound and a new language that could be incorporated. And one of the things that Zimmer said in that featurette was we're telling a story in multidimensional ways. We're using voices and language that you don't understand. And at the same time, somehow you understand it emotionally. And that's like the key, right? I mean, the Star Wars compass is so I just love it because it's like you can't think of Star Wars without, I can't think of Star Wars without thinking the John Williams score without thinking of Dull the Fates or Binary Sunsets and like everything that that tells you about Luke and what is

about to unfold in that sense of hope, but also like desperate longing and yearning and a score that can achieve so much. It's just very hard to do, obviously, but when you do it, it becomes such an enriching part of the experience for fans. And I think this score on the wider soundscape, that's one of the other things that Vilnius said on that celestial sounds feature out is I wanted to create a new soundscape. Like the newness of it, the freshness of it.

It really helps to solidify that sense of being out in the great beyond, like into a moment in time and a part of the universe that we are not currently in, but to then achieve that familiar emotional note inside of the unfamiliar, or it's just really an achievement. I feel similarly about, you know, what Ramin Javadi did for Game of Thrones. I feel similarly about what Howard Shore did for Lord of the Rings. You know what I mean?

Like there's just like little, you can hear just like a snippet of like the shire, you know, theme from Lord of the Rings. And I just like, I want a pipe and like some bread and cheese immediately. So like I think this is on par with all of that. I think it's incredible. Shout out to the space bagpipes, which are my favorite part.

I almost like screamed in the theater when the backpipes came in as they land on a raucous. I thought it was amazing. I agree. That was very special. Also, I'd like the record to state that I always want bread and cheese and a pipe just no matter what. And a warm, cozy fire. Sure, sure, sure. How about the visuals from the sounds to the visuals?

Gorgeous set design, incredible costume design, the makeup, all of it, just magnificent. And it had to be for this to work, honestly. I mean, all of the production design is incredible, but those golden murals that are around the Arachian palace of like the golden fish behind Paul's bed, the great Shia Lood mural that's in the, I don't know if you call it a mural, Bass Relief, I don't know what it is. It's gorgeous. I want a poster of it immediately. And it's that iconography that I just love when someone establishes. I mean, we also have sigils. You know, there's like a there's a House of Trades, even. Siegel, you know, like, it's all there. So I loved it. And the costume design, it's so tricky. We're going to talk about this eventually when we talk about Wheel of Time, but like, it is so hard to pull off costumes that are both otherworldly, but don't look costuming.

Do you know what you mean? And I felt like the, you know, the Harkinen's a little bit more so, but like the coats of the House of Trades, Jessica's gowns, like, their linen, Jim, Jim, dams in the desert, those all look like, I can maybe wear that, you know, not a bed of desert hat, but like some of the stuff I can wear, you know, I don't know. Absolutely. The jackets that Duncan and Paul and Co. are wearing when they're sitting around talking about how Duncan admires the Fremen, I want one of those jackets. I love it. There's a future fashion is one of the featureettes on HBO Max right now. And a nugget in there is that they had 200 specialty costumes for

the film. And there are a lot of it. They're all incredible. I'd like to shout out Gurney for a second for just wearing a leisure through the entire film. The old Pietro in Under Armour and Age of Ultron, except I think Gurney, Gurney pulled it off. It felt it felt right here in a way maybe it didn't in Ultron. My stance on the Ultron costume for Pietro. Don't need to rehash that here. I loved the costumes, the makeup, you know, the everything from, you know, the blue eyes, right, the spice-induced blue eyes. You have to know that. You already talked about the Barron's prosthetic suit, but just like the sandworms. Like you can't fuck up the sandworms in a Dune movie. And it's

harrowing and not just the rendering of the sandworms themselves, but the landscape and the way that it reacts and responds to the sandworms, the cresting of the wave of sand. Worms sign. That's just shouting worms. I'm not about the talk about a second half book spoiler. The tooth action, and then, of course, we end up getting the, like, a Chris knife is a really foundational prop inside of this story. The ships you mentioned are gorgeous. I think we have the same favorite.

The thopters, just incredible. Ornithopter. They look like dragonflies. I love it. The buzzing of the wings. And like, and that shot when they're first flying into, to the, you know, into the palace of Aracas. and it's such like a Blade Runner, both the original and Villeneuve's film, like, moment of, like, just the slow pass-by of the buildings, stuff like that.

So, like that. So, like, beautiful. You have the shields in our note, and I think there's... Yeah, I liked the effect. They work incredibly well, especially in some of those, like, scrums when you're trying to track what's going on with everyone. And it's, like, you know when there's been a critical hit because someone flashes red, you know? And the way that it, like, stutters their movement. And so especially when, like, when Lado goes down and you don't even get a clear shot of him, he's just sort of like staccato movements.

It's incredibly, incredibly effective. It's so good. Yeah. I thought also just in general, the planet designs, you know, Caledin and Aracchus are gorgeous. You talked about the fog when we first pan down onto Caledon earlier. But I'm glad you mentioned that about the shields because I think it's a good, it's a good segue into how the film handles like exposition in general and the moments where there are. these really smart, effective ways of telling you and, like, teaching you in the first place, but then reminding you and orienting you as you go. And the shield, you know, color coding is like

that key. Okay, here's what's happening. Here's what it might mean. How did you feel overall about the way that the film handled world building and then inside of that world building, the exposition? Really, really well. Those, the, the little like exposition films that are from the book that Paul's that Paul's watching like those could have been way overused but I there it's a really light touch like you know you get the like desert foliage you get the the you know the walking without rhythm like it's just like a light touch I think um and then also like the first part of the movie is really a series of conversations between Paul and various characters Paul talking to Jessica Paul talking to his dad

Paul talking to Duncan, Paul talking to Gurney. Like, these are just these conversations. And there's a lot of expositions in all those conversations, but they're also character-drenched, establishing relationships. And so that's the best way to get us to swallow exposition is if you're just, like, rooting it into people having a conversation that we're enjoying, then we can just sort of like absorb the world facts at the same time. Do you know what I mean?

Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. And obviously, much of the exposition, since. enters on establishing the idea of a Messiah. And so let's talk for a few more minutes. You know, we've teased this and hit on it a bit as we've gone today. But let's talk for a few more minutes here about whether this is actually a chosen one narrative. But first, worm sign here.

This is not going to be a part where we get into, again, the very, very, very, very specific plot elements. But we will definitely be talking about the broad narrative arc here for a few minutes. So proceed with caution. Joe? The sand is rumbling beneath our feet. Yeah, so the chosen one question. Yes. I don't mind people calling this a chosen one narrative if they want to just call it a chosen one.

I mind it being levied as a critique against this as like, oh, yon, another chosen one story. Because what Frank Herbert is doing here with the chosen one story, the biggest part being this prophecy. And they touch on it in the film. But I think, like, if you don't exactly know what you're looking for, it's easy to miss. But this idea that, like, the Benegeserate, a couple things. First of all, they've been mixing and match in bloodlines to brew themselves a Messiah. That's one way to make one, I suppose. It's really creepy.

And there's a breeding program. And Jessica's part of it and all that sort of stuff. Paul is not who they wanted for their hussatch, Hatterack. You know, like, he's early. He's a generation early. They were supposed to blend Paul with someone else. And that's like, you know, Paul was supposed to be a daughter and all this sort of stuff. Jessica makes this decision because the Ben of Jesuit can decide the gender of their baby and when they're pregnant, when they're not, to give Lato a son because he wanted a son.

And that's it's called the Jessica crime in the universe of doom. She made this choice driven by love to bear a son. And then she trained him and all the sort of stuff like that. And so that's why the Benad of Desert are so pissed. because they had a very, very long plan and Jessica screwed everything up by what she decided to do, right? And so Paul is not who was supposed to be the chosen one. So that's one factor. Factor two is the prophecy, the mission protective of the the Benad Jesuit plan.

Steve, can we get a soundbite here of MAPES whaling? Betta Jesuit plan to seed prophecies into what they call primitive cult. They might have a narrow idea of what a primitive culture is. But to go, they have been on a raucous. They have been on various planets. And they have been lacing this prophecy in. So like it's as if, you know, none may live while the, you know, like the Harry Potter prophecy or the John Snow prophecy, all this stuff.

What if it was just propaganda? That's what we're dealing with here. And it's propaganda. It's not prophecy. And so like eventually once this is also. stuff that's in the film. So that's not a spoiler of any sort. It's also in the film that the things that Paul sees, especially in that tent scene, the things he sees of the future, a holy war in his name, like blood being spilled, an unquenchable fire, all this sort of stuff.

That's not peace and love and goodwill and let's all just hang out and ingest some spice around the campfire. This is a, the word that's used over and over again in the book is jihad. This is a bloody future that he sees. And so it's not like, you know, Harry Potter will banish Voldemort or, you know, etc. It's, it's something very dice. And that is what makes Dune different from Eng can save us all. You know what I mean?

It's a very different vibe. What do you think? What do you think, Mal? You hear that? Maggie the Frog. It's Sibyl Trilani. You're on notice. I mean, I love this part of it.

I'm so excited to talk about this for a couple of minutes because I love prophecies inside of stories. I love, quote unquote, chosen one stories. But part of what I love about them is the different ways that they can manifest. And I think that Herbert's was deeply invested in and interested in interrogating these ideas and these myths, the people who sprinkle them about and prop them up, the people who then follow them, the people who get caught. up in them. And the idea that prophecy or the promise of the one is not just hopeful, but in fact,

something that can be deployed and weaponized and leveraged for other people's agendas and ends, it's just so fascinating. And there are myriad lines that we could cite and examples that we could point to from just the first book and the first part of the movie. I agree with what you said. This is very minor warm sign because this is all right here in the first film because it is so deeply embedded into the central focus of the story. But like I love, as mentioned previously, I love the epigraphs in the book. And like a couple of the ones that deal with this idea are among my favorites because again, the purpose of those passages is to set the top. tone, right, to ready you for what awaits. And I love, like, one of them from Adeeb family

commentaries. The quote is, you see him there, a man snared by destiny, a lonely figure with his light dimmed behind the glory of his son. Still, one must ask, what is the son but an extension of the father. Now, that, of course, is about Ledo and Paul. But again, it's more broadly about the people who can be caught up in something like this. And then there's a little bit of a lot of this. And then there's like another one of the epigraphs is greatness is a transitory experience. I love this one. This is a real critique of the idea of the Savior. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong

sense of the sardonic. Sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. I mean, this is incredible right here. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man. That's a mission statement. Here's my favorite quote that I remarked on this subject.

And it's Kynes, the inner monologue of Dr. Kines as he's dying in the book. and he keeps remembering his father's. He thinks his father, as they're talking to him, his father says, no more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero with a capital H. Like, I added the with a capital H. But like, you know, that's just like,

that's what this book is. It's not like, yay, Paul's here to save us. That is not the story that we're reading. You know what I mean? And what's interesting is that that's kind of there they'll have had more of a chance to lean on the gas on this if he wanted to and he opted not to. And it's interesting because it feels like he's almost kind of like luring us, people who are unfamiliar with the story, luring us into this idea of like we're rooting for Paul to ascend to greatness or something like that.

Do you know what I mean? It reminds me a little bit of what happened with Dineris, right? Which is this like the old heroic bait and switch, which this is going to be different. because, like, we are going to get part two, hopefully in a couple of years and not, like, eight seasons into a television show with two more episodes to go or whatever. But that idea of, like, to circle back to the White Savior thing, like, when you look at some of the Daeneres, like, White Savior stuff with the Dothraki and Game of Thrones to know where that eventually ends, and again, it's seated in the book, but not really in the show,

that's more of what we should be looking at, I think, in this Dune story. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And, you know, there are a few moments, you know, as you noted, in the visions. And like throughout the film there are a couple, I had a couple moments we can point to, I think, where we're being primed for this, albeit maybe in subtler fashion. But even just the way that we're sort of trained along with Paul to understand his vision. visions and what they foretell, you know, like the exchange with the Reverend Mother. Do, do, like, does this happen exactly, you know, and Paul says not exactly, right? And again, what can we trust? Or like a moment with Duncan where he says, I felt like if I had

been there, you'd be alive. Like, that was an important moment, I think, because not only is it very sad, you know, particularly on a rewatch and you're watching Paul move through the ecological Center where Duncan will in fact be killed and this like sense of familiarity but how quickly is everything clicking into place and can he place it like the idea of that pressure though like what is it incumbent upon you when you know the future or you might what does that mean for the way you live your own life what do you tell other people i always used to think about this with brand right and the three-eyed raven like how can you lead if you have that kind of knowledge you shouldn't be allowed to. Well, it's another reason why Paul, again, I think this is sort of what I was alluding

to when I said he's a tricky character to wrap your arms around because Jomey and Steve in our, like, Slackchat, we're talking about, like, brand, like these Raven dreams that Paul has that are very brand-like. And brand, as we know, especially as he wound up in the show, became a hard character to feel for because he becomes so unfeeling because, like, when you see everything. How do you maintain your humanity? Why do you think I came all this way? But like, but the thing, the thing about Paul that I think saves him from that slightly is that he doesn't see things how they will be. He sees things as they might be. And we get that, the big thing about the quiesas hararach that we should talk about is like the reason he's going to be so powerful

for the Badi Jesuit and they want, they want a messiah that they can control, right? The shortening of the way. Is that he will have, they have the memory, the institutional memory of women. Because of Ben-A-Jezerite is his sisterhood. He, the Quisas-Hara could have institutional memory of both men and women. And one of the really subtle things that the film does that I think is so interesting is give us that in these visions. When Paul and Jessica are traversing the desert and try to figure out where to go,

he keeps thinking about Duncan, Idaho on the rocks with the Fremen. To my mind, my interpretation of that is he is accessing Duncan's memory in that. And that's how, like, Duncan told him roughly where to go. But I think also he is literally seeing it. And that is how he's able to figure out where to go and how to find Stilgar and the rest. The same is true with the Jammis figure. Who's the first face we see in this film, by the way? it's confusing, I think, to people maybe just watching him for the first time because he has these visions of drama as being like, I will show you and all these conversations that don't happen because he dies.

But Paul is also accessing that knowledge that, like, I will show you the way of my people is something that he's doing in these visions for Paul that he never literally gets to do in life because he dies. And so to me, and I could be wildly misinterpreting, but to me, but to me, me that was an indication of Paul's ability to access specifically that masculine memory and knowledge. I don't know. What do you think? That's really interesting. I think that that question of what has happened or could and what is fixed and what can change is obviously like something hanging over Paul as he comes to process and understand not only his abilities, but his path. And I think that those abilities connect then to that thematic idea of like the reluctant leader that is present here and across many stories, always something that, you know, I love to talk about.

Like, there's that scene with Lado and Paul where he says, your grandfather said a great man doesn't seek to lead. He's called to it and he answers it. And if your answers, no, you'll still be the only thing I ever needed you to be my son. Very sweet moment. Very touching. But there's something core there to the idea that Paul will kind of. constantly have to choose and decide. And that connects to something that's in the books, very overtly and consistently that is not as at the four in the films, which is this idea of Paul's terrible purpose. Like, that's how he thinks of it. His terrible purpose makes me think of Loki's glorious purpose. Exactly. The glorious purpose. Burden. Yeah, poor Paul, burden with terrible

purpose. Yeah, it's like not this clean and boastful thing, right? It's this this, this anchored. or, you know, one of the quotes in the book is Paul felt that he had been infected with terrible purpose. He did not know yet what the terrible purpose was. And so moments like that, accessing those visions, accessing those memories, accessing that knowledge is all part of that, that terrible weight and burden that he does not really want. And I think we see that manifest in this film in some interesting ways in terms of how like that resentment and mistrust is present and then continuing to bubble to the fore. Like even when he overhears the Reverend mother

and Jessica talking and he says, like, all part of a plan. There's the sense of, you know, bitterness for like being a pawn on someone else's chessboard. Rightly so, reasonably so. And, you know, he says to his mother, like, planting superstitions. She says, preparing the way, Paul.

But again, that perspective, that idea of perspective is so central to how this story is told. They see you, they see the signs, Jessica says. and what does Paul say, they see what they've been told to see. Like, he's aware. He's very aware and astute.

And then the moment's moving forward where he will lose some of that and then how he will find his way back toward it and at what cost is, you know, there's a lot of story ahead for Paul. There's also this other aspect of the vision that I find really, it's my favorite kind. And I think the movie actually leans into it even more so than the book, which is a vision you have to interpret. it. So he's like, I know a knife will be important, so he'll hand me a knife. And he keeps seeing like the Chris knife. We find out that like it's Chani gives him the Chris knife. He has to use it to kill Jammis. That's what he has to do to move forward on his journey. But the vision he keeps seeing is of himself dying. But the larger interpretive idea of this is is once again

to lean heavily on Thrones, like kill the boy, let the man be born. You have to kill Paul Atreides. to become the Kweisat-Hadrach, to become Maudib, to become all these things. And in doing so, killing the boy is killing this opponent of yours, because he keeps trying to get him to yield. And he's like, they're like, that's not the way. You have to kill him. And in killing this man, he kills the boy inside of himself to become this next thing. But in his vision, he keeps seeing it as himself dying, this bloody ham, this bloody

knife, all this sort of stuff like that. I, that's really brilliant and I really loved. It's a, I think it's a book departure that I really loved that Villeneuve did. That's, that's great. And I love all the way that these ideas connect because then you take something like the tent scene, which, you know, connects directly to a book passage where, like, Lado is saying, that honorable banner could come to mean many evil things. And Paul, like the passage continues, Paul swallowed in a dry throat, his father's words,

carried futility, a sense of fatalism. that left the boy with an empty feeling in his chest. Like the way that Paul thinks about the idea of fatalism is, again, it bakes right into the story. And then when we get something like the tense scene with the vision and these flashes of that holy war and the way he's shouting, a war in my name, everyone's shouting my name.

One of the things that his mother says to him is that she can see he's afraid, right? And that's like a, that allows us to think about the litany against fear and this idea. Litany of fear is probably the most, like iconic passage from the book. We got it in a different way here. I was surprised by this because we hear Paul say it in the trailer.

You know, we're hearing Timmy say, fears the mind killer in the trailer. And so I just expected that we would get it. But of course, because of the stylistic adaptive changes, like not getting the inner monologues, because when we first processed the litany in the book during the box pain test with the Reverend Mother, at his neck, that is when he is reciting this to himself.

In the film, Jessica is doing it. So this was an interesting change that I had like mixed feelings on, but I thought ultimately worked because of course this is one of the teachings from Jessica that Paul has learned in the first place. But I just like love the idea and the way it manifests in the story. And it's so crucial, like not ignoring fear. Like that's the most important part, right? It's not about ignoring fear or minimizing fear or saying that fear doesn't exist or that you're a coward if you acknowledge fear.

It's actually about staring into the face of it, like and working to move beyond it. It makes me a thing, I always love the brand Ned. You know, can a man still be brave if he's afraid. That is the only time a man can be brave idea. And it's not one to one, but it makes me think of that and how these ideas like can surface differently across stories. And I like the way she says it like a rosary. I think it works really, really well. And like to circle back to some, well, there are some adaptive changes made in the tent scene that I really like.

Again, I think it's letting Paul hold on to his humanity longer than he gets to in the book, then he gets to in the Lynch film, even, stuff like that. It's just sort of like he's overwhelmed with these visions he's seeing, but like ultimately he's still like his, and he's angry at his mother, but he's still a boy with his mother. You know, she's like, he's crying all this sort of stuff like that. Like all of that is there. We had a lot of people ask us about the still suit changing scene when Paul and Jessica change out of their linen gin jans into the still suit. And it's a very, it's a scene that's usually reserved for lovers of like cautiously looking over each other's shoulders as they like change for the first time in front of each other. And I think people got a weird vibe off of it, Ben Ball and a couple other people tweeted us about this. I have a couple interpretations of this.

One, there is a sort of edible thing with Jessica and Paul a little bit that's less sexual and more like about connection. And you see it at the end of the movie when she's observing him talking to Chani, which is this like transition Paul makes from like fundamentally his mother's son to fundamentally a man who's about to make a connection with another woman. Like that sort of transition is part of it. And then I also think, and the only reason I think this is because how. heavily it's stated in the book.

For Jessica, this is a, this moment is treated as a very heavy acceptance of a new part of their lives. Once they put these still suits on, they have to acknowledge that this is forever, this is their new existence now. They're going to have to watch every drop of water now. They're desert people now. This is what is happening to them. And Jessica holds out on taking her first sip from the, still suit because she doesn't want to accept that that's happening to her. So I think that like

putting the suits on moment, I think, I think is a nod to that. And keeps also saying, you know, we have to get off world. We have to get Paul off world. Like doesn't just doesn't want to accept it. You got back to the planet where it rains sometimes. Come on. And we get to wear our cool coats. Yeah. There's also like it connects back to what you were saying a few minutes ago about the, you know, the kill the boy idea. Like this journey for Paul into manhood and adulthood, and like that recognition as a parent that something has changed to

in who her child is and where he is in his life, the modesty that enters into a parent-child relationship at a certain point where like things that, where there were no veils before there now are, and like how there's pride, but also sadness, I think, in a moment like that. And how she starts the film instructing him and he at this point is like, here's how you put a still suit on. This is how we have to walk.

This is what we're doing. Yes. I loved that part of their shared arc, you know, the trading of the lessons and especially because lessons are so central to the story in the first place. I'm curious to ask for a minute here while we're talking about Paul and Jessica, like how movie Lado compared to book Lato for you, you know, inside of House of Trades. I thought he was great. Oscar Isaac is obviously like incredible. and everything that he does. He's very special.

But I thought he was very convincing as a leader as someone who's got a tremendous burden on him, as someone who has a real, like, humane affection for his partner. The thing, again, my sister, my sister was critical. She didn't think there was enough connection between Lido and Jessica. And I was like, there's a couple moments, big moments where he looks to her, like a big moment of like the ceremonial arrival in Caledan or when they first arrive in Arracus and he like takes her hand like these connections or her like stroking his forehead to get him to go to sleep. They're small. They don't have a lot of time for it, but I feel the real affection and connection.

This is a marriage of love, even though they're not married between them. And I thought that was great. And I think that scene on Caledan as well where he's talking about his own desires as a young man and his father and all that stuff. I think it's so effective. And then the book does a lot of like that spice rescue, the rescue of the men off the spice carrier, again, a very Ned Stark moment where it feels like a Harcunan leader would not give shit about the men on there. But like, it's like a Save the Cat moment for Duke where you're like, this is a different kind of leader. He cares about these men. He's like, screw the spice.

Let the worm swallow the spice. We're going to save every person on this carrier. So I don't know. How about you? How did Lido sit for you? I'm glad you made that last point because I think it's like a night. in very handy contrast to the baron who, you know, not just as a foil to Lato and with the Harkonans, Harkinens, and the Atreides' houses in combat and war in opposition, but the

baron also as this, you know, symbol of like gluttony and excess in a story about nature. and the environment and the importance of conservation and understanding the connections all around you, like that, I thought this moment in the movie was like so good and so chilling when the baron says, you know, the desert takes the weak, my desert, my arachnus, my dune, like the fucking gall. I have to correct your pronunciation.

Castellan goes, my arachis. Like the way it says it is just like... It's incredible. Incredible. It's amazing. But like the absolute gall and hubris to call that his. And how sharp of a contrast that strikes to the Fremen who understand what is unfolding on this planet.

And, you know, you take a moment like Paul noting that Duncan admires the Fremen. And he says, they're fierce but. loyal, they're attuned to the desert, part of it. It's part of them. Like, these contrasts are so present across the story, the idea of being attuned, like the baron isn't at all. And then you have a character like Lado who is attuned to the threats and how to try to move within them and navigate them, but there's this sense of inevitability. Much more so in the book, right, where it's like literally, for the father, nothing than in the film, but even so. But even so. So this sense that he will not be able to move forward and escape.

I think the way these character arcs play off each other is really impressive. When he says, I thought we'd have more time. That is just such a- Grushing. Also the moment that we have arrived at in the podcast where we look at each other and say we thought we'd have more. It's funny because in terms of leadership, I just, I'm ignoring you and moving on to the next thing I want to say, which is like in terms of leadership, one critique I heard from a friend

of mine who was a book reader, he said it first. First, he thought Javier Bardem's performances, Stilgar, was so different from the book that he wasn't sure what to make of it. And then he was like, but then I decided that he was such a strong leader that he didn't need to, like, be forceful. He's so powerful from his, like, quiet, relax. I love when he leaves, that first meeting when he leaves. He's like, that's all I have to say to you by. Basically, like, he's just sort of like, I've come, I've spit. You said you won't like, you know, kick us out of our homes.

That is very honorable of you. That is all I have to say goodbye. Like it's just gave him the gift of his body's moisture. What else do they want? I love. I love. Have you over dead with this movie. So wonderful.

Mail bag. Let's do it. Jomi, if you're still here. Oh, I'm here. I'm here. See what it happened was I needed to put my steel suit on. And my mom was giving me a weird look. in the background.

So I had to address that. But I'm here. Still suits look great, man. They do look nice. Incredible costume design. I don't know if they make one in a double X. You know what I'm saying? Everybody there was looking in a real fit.

You know what I'm saying? I might have to get mine custom made. As I said to Steve on Slack last night, I believe, drop the boots on the sneakers app, you cowards. Let's go. I'm sure you get some Nike colorways on those. You know, who says no? Our first question comes from Nick.

Nick wants to know what's the one scene from the book that they didn't include in the film that you missed the most? Mine was the dinner party. And I will say that this is, I think it made sense to not include it from the film. This is very much an answer for if this had been a miniseries, as like we talked about earlier. Like that's the kind of scene that feels like it makes up an entire episode.

you know, of that palace intrigue and those dynamics. Like, here's this asshole banker and here we are, like, sussing out all of the different plots and schemes. Like, I feel like this is like Tyrion, you know, putting all of the marriage possibilities out to see. I was going to say it's like the Turnhaven episode of Succession. Just like a very tense dinner party where like a lot of stuff is going on. Yeah, yeah.

Who is the shiv then at that table? Oh, God. The like smugglers' dog. I don't know. Anyway. That's my pick. What about you? Well, I just found out today that apparently they filmed the Jessica, a Jessica U.A. conversation where he talks about his wife.

It's like U.A. is trying to evade detection of his betrayal. And Jessica obviously has all these powers. And so he hides his nervousness in his sorrow about his wife. It's a very cool part of the book. And they filmed it. Because that grief is true. Yeah. We'll see it on like a DVD extra or something like that.

Because I would have loved a little bit more U.A. before we get the turn. But actually, if I had to pick one thing, it would be Howat versus Jessica. This is an element that is not in this. We might see it in a different, in the sequel or something like that. But that Jessica suspected as the spy before UA is revealed to be the spy and how it, like, they have this incredible scene, the two of them, where they're just sort of like, he's a mentad, so he's got all this, like, ability and she's a Benadjazzar, and they're just sort of sussing and playing and like all this or stuff.

Unbelievable sequence. That would have been a great scene. That's a great pick. I really just am looking forward to more Hawat in general and more mentas in general. That's very much so. What's next? We got a question from Joanna. Hey, what's out?

Two Joanna's on the pod was going on. Oh, no. What was something you were worried that they would make a little cheesy or lame, but we're pleasantly surprised that they got right? I honestly think that what Joanna included in the next part of her question, which is for me it was the voice, is probably my pick too.

The effect of the voice here, not only the sound design, but the visual accompaniment of you sort of like, there's this delay, right? This pause, this delay, and then you see what could unfold and then it either does or it doesn't

whether the character can account for it. That's a good one. I guess also just like the baron not being too campy. Yeah, the baron is something that was really weird. about. Yeah. And apparently Villeneuve told the story about how, like, he went to Stel and Scarser to ask him to do it. And Sellen was like, are you doing C.G? I don't want to do C.G. And he's like, no, we're doing prosthetics. And so he's like, okay, I'm your guy. So, like, all of that worked out. I have to go with Shai Halut, the sandworm. Like, if those effects had not been like, but you feel the weight of it. I was really, you know, I was really looking at that last shot of the sandworm as it loomed. which I think is the shot of the movie and it looms over and it's sort of like

my cat ran away at the sounds that Shia Lund made but I would like like you just feel the weight of it and if that effect hadn't worked I don't know I would have taken me right out that's a good pick I've always been like pleasantly surprised by the way

the sandworms look across adaptations like it this is far and away the best but it could whether it's in illustrations or in the Lynch film or anywhere else like it could go so wrong. Here it is just magnificent. It really is just incredible. What's next?

I love this question from Abu Zafar. Has Oscar Isaac ever looked better? Can I get a hotness power ranking of all of Oscar Isaac's roles? We decided if we did a full power ranking, it would be an entire episode. So Mal and I are you just going to, and we should do that to be clear. Stay tuned. We should get Van and Charles and Stephen and Jomey and everyone all together. Scenes from a hotness power ranking.

Love that for us. But for right now, I think Mal and I are just going to pick one potential contender. I am like ready if you need time. Do you need time? No, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. I'm going to give it to depressed cat daddy, Lew and Davis.

Damn it. That's my pick. Okay. All right. That's clearly the pick. But I was prepared for you picking that. I mean, beards, cats, music. We're just, this is so unbrand for both of us.

Of course, we were both going to pick this. But I will just offer up, I mean, it's anything where he has a beard. It's just astounding. And there are no shortage of options here. Really, I promise this isn't recency bias. Scenes from a marriage. The curls are popping. Academic, suburban dad vibes.

I love it. You guys are missing off? one. What is it Po? Oscar Isaac in Apocalypse. Oh, yeah. Purple with the like very, Poe would be in my top five for what it's worth.

Poe would be in my top five. Very cool. Poe is just so effortlessly cool and also the bond with BBA just adds to the attractiveness, obviously. Honestly, though, my actual pick would probably be X Machina. He looks good at X. Oh, and he can dance. Yes.

Yeah, it's a good pick. The rhythm. Rhythm is hot. That's a good pick. Rhythm is hot. Our next question comes from Jimmy Boo. It is pumpkin spice latte season here in the 21st century. Do you think fall time on Dune is spice latte season?

Would you opt for the spice latte bay from other spit various bodily waters as a treat? Or just stick to their regular warm, tempered recycled sweat and piss water. One of an incredible question. I love that they show them making the coffee like kinds. Wait, Steve, can we get a soundbite of kinds asking for coffee? Shamir a coffee service, please. Of course, yes. I love that sequence.

And they show them spinning to make the coffee. That's right. That is a wonderful sequence. Like, we just need to use this opportunity to say that spice coffee and spice beer are dune cannon. I would take a spice beer over a butter beer, which I've always found the concept of completely disgusting any day of the week. Oh, I love butter bear. Your sweet tooth is sweet tooth.

Yeah, just the warmth. But I wouldn't say no to a spice beer. Spice beer. Sounds wonderful. Should we just use this as an opportunity for 30 seconds to talk about the fact that the still suit explanation that we get here in this film really, you know, centers fully on sweat.

Of course, the tent repurposes the sweat and the tears, very poignant. we don't get the iconic urine and feces line in this film. What happened? I'm delighted to skip it. To fully understand Jessica's hesitancy to put this suit on. You have to understand what we're really talking about here. Oh, boy.

When they say high efficiency, folks, they mean it. They mean it. Every word of it. You will not lose a thimble full of moisture in a still suit. Oh my God. Speaking of, what's our next question, Jomey? Greed de L.A. wants to know if your outfit could create ideal physical conditions for your body. What would it do and where would you wear it? I wanted to answer this because I have very strong opinions about this.

Oh, yes. My feet need to be warmer than they usually are at all times. I'm a person with like who needs socks and my and I but I like a cool breeze on my face. So it's a cool breeze on my face, but toasty, warm feet. That's my ideal. Temperature zones. Yeah. I love this.

And where would I wear it? Everywhere. But would this be, is this like fixed throughout the day or is it like do the needs change whether you're like inside, outside during the day? at night while you sleep. I'm going to want that, like, fan blowing in my hair, giving me sort of like a Tyra Banks moment all the time, cooling my cheeks while my feet are nice and warm at all times.

Indoor, outdoors, sleeping, all of it. How about you, my mom. My feet get very warm during the day, but very cold at night. So I start every night. I don't know why I'm sharing this, but I start every night putting on socks so that I can fall asleep and then I kick them off over the course of the night. it's just a little fun fact about me and my personal circulation

and temperature control. I would pick a suit that could beam story right into my brain like beam books and movies and shows into my brain. Now I wouldn't want to lose the pleasure of consuming them, but just for those moments

of sheer necessity, right? Where I want to just be able to like download something. Now, I do realize as I'm saying, saying this out loud that I'm in essence describing a black mirror episode and how quickly this could go very, very wrong. And it wouldn't be long before I was removing my own grain in a sink.

But, you know, but what a way to go. What a way to go. It'd be so efficient. I think I'm going to rock just a weighted blanket sweatsuit. Oh, that sounds nice. So comforting for anxiety.

That sounds nice. Good for anxiety. I can sit and watch my television and movies without having to go bring my weighted blanket from upstairs. You know what I'm saying? I'm not wearing this out, by the way. If I get that, I'm never leaving the house again. It's done, right?

You'll never see me in person again. But it'd be nice. Yeah. I love that for you. Our next question comes from Zach. And Zach wants to know if you could occupy any of the special characters in Doom, the Mentat, the Benet, the Gessert, the Fremen, etc. which would you want to be?

As someone who was very online are more like a mentat. But as someone who grew up in the desert, I love the idea of being a worm riding fremen. I think Benad Jesuit, but like Jessica, rogue Benegeserate. Don't like rules, like all the power.

That's how I feel. You just can't wait to go mix bloodlines. You know me. I am forever mixing and matching bloodlines and a sort of eugenics-like way. Yeah, no. The Mentat, we should say really quickly, well, something I want to make sure we touch on that I think is really unclear in this, in the film is the idea. Someone asked, like, why are there not computers in this world?

It's based on our world. It's to be the future. There's a lot of tech here, but not really computers. And the thing you need to know about Dune is that this society is based on this idea or something called the Bularian jihad, where they eliminated all computers that can think like humans. which is something I think up every time one of those Boston Dynamics videos makes around and I'm like, kill it with fire. Stop it now.

They were like, the people of Dune were like, Skynet, no, no thank you. Gone. So the mentats are as close as they get to computers. The Fairhowat is, you know, when his eyes go white, he's doing his like calculations and stuff like that. And I think that's all spice supported and training.

So, yeah. But that's, I don't like math. So I don't want to be the to have to do the math. That's a no for me. It seems exhausting. It's a better jessar it for me. I'm going to go with being a fremen, I think. Okay, I love it.

Ride some sandworms. You know, I will understand Iraqis better than all of the outsiders. I will be part of a beautiful, attuned community. I will rock that still suit. That's the pick. The other ones are, they give me pause. Again, being a mentat just seems exhausting.

I do like the way that you, you, you, the Jessica within the Benny Jeserate is a smart pick because you're going a little rogue there and doing your own thing, but you have all the power. It's, it's a savvy pick. I like it. It's a good one. Yeah, I think the right pick is the fremen. You got to be, got to want to ride some sandworms. Like, that's got to be, when I'm showing up to Iraqis, I'm writing sandworms. Like, that's, that's, that's the thing.

Yeah, just high on ice all the time. Love it. You know, who says no to that, right? All right. Monica Rainey would like to know, can you talk about the symbolism of the Bulls and House of Trades? Definitely lots of lingering shots for us to stew on. Great question.

I love this one. It is a great question because it's like, it's the thing that Villeneuve like lingers on so often without showing us like, We know that Lato's father, the old Duke, died in a bullfight. That's, you know, Lato alludes to it. Look where that got him, like, a sort of thing. But, like, that's how he dies. And, like, Jessica hates this in the book.

She hates the bullhead. She's really, she doesn't want it there. They've got the bullhead that the horns are still, like, bloody with the old dude. Caked with the old Duke's blood. Like, that hangs in their hallway. And she's trying to tuck it away somewhere. And Lato's like, nope, in the dining hall. That's where the bullhead's going.

But they've got all these. these cool little statues that he keeps focusing on. I'm so curious about your interpretation. Here's mine, which is this idea of House of Trait. Like House of Traities is not a risky house, right? We wouldn't call Lido risky, but they're not going to back away from a fight. So when Lato is called to Aracus, he has to say yes, but he's also like, I'm going to grapple with this thing, this bull that is bearing down on me. I am going to face it. and I'm going to grapple with it. And you could extend that to Paul,

sort of grappling with his destiny or whatever you want it. But it's just sort of this idea, they're not hasty, they're not rash, but they are going to stare down the bull. That's sort of my interpretation. What do you think? Yeah, mine as well.

I think there's like the two edges of the bull sword here where there is the promise of the strength and the determination. And the, fear is a mind killer idea, which obviously comes from Jessica, but is of a piece in the sense of like not backing down.

But then just as present, you know, this is a lesson and a metaphor for like tempting forces that can undo you. You know, what actually did happen to the old Duke? Because you said, well, he got, he got speared, right? He got killed.

He got vested. I think there's also something here about, you know, and both in terms of the bullhead. hanging, the painting, the statue that we see, you know, Paul looking at in the movie, the way that, you know, one more reminder and reinforcement of the way that legends kind of like linger and loom above you and inform the way that you think about not only the past, but what the future might hold. It reminds me of like Rickard Stark and like, you know, like the generation before the one, even the, the generation before the fathers that were following

of these young heroes, right? You've got, because I don't think, I believe what's true is that Lato's father, the old Duke, doesn't have a name. He's just the old Duke in the Dune Books. And so, like, I just like this idea of Lato's dad died fighting a bull. He definitely didn't need to die, but that's how he died. Here's the bloody bullhead and it's just going to, like, stay and we're going to remember these stories that we remember.

I love that. Yeah. Finally. We're almost to it. Just one last note here before we go today. Worm sign. Worm sign. We're not going to spend too long on this, but what are you anticipating most from the second half of the book?

What are you most looking forward to seeing in part two of a film, future installments? All right. So this is book second half, spoiler warning. Like, it's, you know, if you don't want to know, blah, blah, blah. I think it's funny that, like, probably people who aren't paying too close attention might think that Stephen McKinley Henderson and Josh Boland are not in part two because they we just don't see them after the attack. But those characters of Howatt and Gurney Halleck survive and they're very instrumental in what's

coming forward. Even Duncan Idaho in like is not done with the story. Reanimated Golug Duncan Idaho possibly coming to a movie near you. That would probably be in a third film. Yeah. Wouldn't be in the second film. It would be in the third film. Yeah, but so like all those, but casting wise, I am really interested in who they might cast as Fed Ralfa.

And I was wondering if you had any. Can we just the Barrens? Can we run it back with the sting energy? You want you want to, you want to, you want to bring sting? We got to replicate that energy. On the sting front. Reddit is enchanted with the idea. So this is, this is the Barron's nephew, just for folks.

The Baron's nephew who's not Dave Batista, but is the sort of like better, I feel bad we didn't mention Dave Batista before now, but like is the sort of more amenable face of House Harkinen who might come in that the Baron is positioning to take over for him. So in the Lynch film is played by staying Reddit likes the idea of Harry Styles to continue a pop icon in the role. He'd be hysterical. Something, but like, fate is not like, it's not a Harry-styles type of role. And like the thing that's interesting. Just be a funny nod. To point out is that all the Harkinans are like, have shaved heads. And I don't want Harry touching a single hair on his head for that.

Yeah. I have two, I have two options here. Okay. Barry Keown, which we will see tonight in Eternals. Yeah. But he's kind of, he's young and appealing but creepy. All of those things together. That's Barry Keogh, and I'm a big fan.

And also possibly Ezra Miller. Both Barry and Ezra are a little older than Fade should be, but that's, I don't know, that's sort of what I think. Do you have any options? You should just keep going. Who is your pick for, have you figured out who you want to see as Princess Eerlon or the emperor? Or of course, we know that we have a little sister on the way, and we've got a few years before Abomination takes a whole. How many years would we cover? How many different performers would we need here?

Exactly. When she first toddles out in the book, she's two. Anyway, let's explain it really quickly. For folks who don't know, Jessica undergoes this ritual while she's pregnant, and that it means she gives birth to this daughter who has the mind of an adult in a tiny little child body. It is very eerie in the book and in the David Lynch film. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about it.

I don't have a good, I don't know of any toddler actors. I don't know who to pick for Elia of the knife. They might try to age her up more, but like, I don't like, the youngest I have is like Grace McKenna who's already like, you know, probably a young teen at this point. So I don't, I don't know that I have any kid actors of mine for this one. It's a tough one. It's a pretty crucial one. Princess Aeroon, I know. I just don't know how they're going to do it.

Princess Aeron who is the emperor's daughter who, spoiler alert, winds up being Paul. actual wife, Cheney, Stacey's concubine. I was thinking either Catherine Newton

or Eliza Scanlon. She's supposed to just be like a very like blonde, you know, like whatever. I don't know,

Virginia Madsen type. So that was sort of, but I like both those actresses a lot. I don't think they could bring a lot. No matter what, we have a, we have a skirted

the opening exposition voiceover. So we're, we're good. It's, it's a win. No Irrilon voiceover as we got in the 84 version. None of that here.

Yeah. And then the emperor, I don't know. Well, oh, I should say really quickly, for Fade, Routha, a lot of, Reddit also is really enamored of the idea of one of Sullen's sons because he has so many acting sons. Yeah. So Bill Scars Guard, but like, again, that's too old for what fate is supposed to be. But if you were to put Bill in there, I wouldn't be mad. Love a scary clown.

And Emperor, I have no. no ideas for the emperor. I haven't really thought this one through. Anyway, what do you want to see in part two? You know, a lot of what we already talked about, more on the Mentats, more of House Harkening, obviously more Chani, and very, very eager. You know, we got a few glimpses of our beloved little desert mouse reclaiming the moisture streaming down his own ears.

And I'm very excited about Mwadib and Paul thinking about that name and the names that the Fremen will give him and the name that he will give himself and how all of that will connect to, again, that idea of myth making and what can you avoid or change what is fixed. That is so interesting and ever present in the story. So more kangaroo mouse action for me. That's what I'm most excited for. I just asked my friend Jenny Owen Youngs, who's been talking nothing but Fade Routha to me, like, since she read the book a couple weeks ago. And she's like, who's going to be Fayed? So I just asked her. I was like, who's your dream casting? And she offered up Fred Heshinger, I'm not sure how you pronounce his last name, but he was the sun in White Lotus. And he's been in like a bunch of stuff. He was in Fear Street. He does have that like unhaged, creepy vibe going. Yeah, I think it's a great pick as well. Oh, wow. That's inspired.

I love that. I think it's interesting that they're saving the fact that Jessica's a Harkinen for part two, a little secret Targaryen move it feels like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not surprised

that that's on hold. I think that, you know, we've mentioned Star Wars a lot. Let's save the family connection reveal for the second film. Keep that tradition going. But I don't know. Yeah, I think it just might have been

one element too many to introduce into this story. But the other thing, is like the idea of like her not knowing her parentage is just not really present here. So there's there's almost no mystery even to build toward. They'll have to insert more of that. Yeah, I envision part two being, you know, because this has the big attack, which is so big and cool action moment in this film.

And part two doesn't really have a comparable moment. So it is going to be much more palace intrigue in the movie. Do you know what I mean? And like you get the like the count and the countess. and all that sort of stuff, like all that, like, harkin, dicey whispering

and double, double plans within plans within plans. So, yeah, I'm, I'm here for it. Palace intrigue, new relationships,

babies, Desert mouse. Sounds amazing. Coming to a theater near you in 2012, I honestly can't wait. All right, friends. The thumpers are out, so it's time to,

to wrap today's episode. Before we do, thank you as always to our Cuisat-Tahrack, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Thank you to the Duke of House of Our working title. Or Junerabhapal for his additional production work on this episode. And thank you to our mentor, Jomi Adeneron, for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow the ringerverse on all of our social feeds and head back into the reverse this Friday. Until then, remember, we must not fear. Fear.

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