House of R - 'Dune: Part Two' Deep Dive

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Jo and Mal begin their coverage of 'Dune: Part Two' with their classic deep dive into the massive blockbuster film that is sure to be a highlight of the year (07:32). They dive into the characters and themes with the likes of Paul, Chani, Stilgar, and more. They also attempt to see the future and predict what may happen in the third part based on their knowledge of 'Dune Messiah.' Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I don't care what you believe. I believe. Daddy! Who believes you're going to make it? Anything else I should know. Joanna Robbins, and this is House of R. And joining me today for the first in our Dune Part 2 trilogy, it is my favorite spicy melange, Mallory Rubin. What's up, Mallory? How are you doing?

You young pup. Oh, Joanna. I am so excited to be here with you with Steve for part one of our three part. Dune Part 2 trilogy. I will love you as long as I breathe. I will love you as long as we pod together. I am so excited to talk about Dune Part 2 with you today. I love you as long as you stay you.

You know what I mean? I have some conditions. That always works out. Should be fine. Totally fine. Hello. We're here to talk about Dune Part 2. Thrilled and excited and delighted to do that.

We both love this movie. Spoiler alert for our reactions. We saw it together. We did. We're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about some theme, character, et cetera. Just, I'm going to dive right into program reminders. Later this week, we're going to have a Dune Part 2 mailbag episode.

Miley Rubin, if someone has a question, comment, concern about a Doom Part 2, how do they get that to us? Send us your thoughts at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The inbox is open. It's the same inbox as it always is for a house of our podcast. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We're doing an entire Dune mailbag. So if you've got questions on prior Dune adaptations, the novels, future films, casting, popcorn buckets,

thought experiments, the Messiah myth, anything, everything, send it all. We can't wait to see what's on your mind and to talk about it together. We also are doing a third installment on Dune. We're going to be doing a Paula Trades Hall of Fame episode. our second Hall of Fame episode. Next week. So this is the Dune to Spice Shell Flow through this week and into the next. And that's just how much we love this movie and how excited we are to talk about this property.

We're riding the sandworm of content. Over on The Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, they've got a lot going on, including coming up soon and Invincible. Season 2 is already, part two of season 2 is already upon us. So that's something to keep on your radar. buttonmash has got some Final Fantasy Seven coverage, Mallory, how can folks make sure to catch all of our Dune installments as well as what's happening over on the Ringervorce?

What should they do? Great question. Thanks for asking. You're welcome. First of all, follow the pod. Follow House of R. Brilliant. Follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're at it,

follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram. Twitter, TikTok. You can see the team photo with the Dune Popcorn Bucket. It's right there waiting for you. Wonderful. If that's not enough of us for you, the listener, and if you, the listener,

happen to be coming to Austin, Texas next week for the South by Southwest film, Music Interactive Festival, guess what? we're doing a live show. And you're like, wow, first I've heard of it. And I'm like, well, it was a late addition to our schedule. Malli and I are going to be in town at the same time. We were like, why not make it work?

So Monday, March 11th, we're going to be in the ACC, the convention center. And what are we doing for the live show? Come and find out. But you can also come and say hi. What time on Monday? Great. glad you asked 4 o'clock central. So come see us. Please come if you're there. Please, please come because we did this in the last minute and we're worried no one's going to come.

So please come. Join us, bad babies. And then we'll be running through the streets of Austin down in the Paramount Theater to see Def Patel and Monkey Man later that night. So it's going to be a great night for us in Austin. And we hope that you join us for that. Last but not least, like slightly complex, spoiler warning today. doon part one and part two, these two movies cover the entirety of Frank Herbert's first novel, Dune. There's some things in the book that don't happen to the movies. That's all on the table for us to talk about today. Anything from the first Dune book, even if it's not in the first two movies, is on the table. We're going to be doing what we love to do, which is compare and contrast, give you context, all of that. That is the spoiler warning. Watch Dune Part 1, doom part two, read the book, however you feel comfortable. That's the main bulk of this episode. We will, however, at the very end, have a section on Dune Messiah, which is the second book

and the foundation for what Deneville Nouve plans to be the third installment of his treatment of Dune. So forward look at that book and what that third movie might contain. That will be in its own isolated section at the end of the pod. And we will give you another spoiler warning before we dive into that. So clear? Crystal? Yes.

I think so. Great. Also, you know what? Just throwing this out there. You've never read Dune Messiah and you're like, did I miss my chance? Sounds like there's a segment at the end of today's pod, which I'm already listening to. Read it between now and the Paul Hall of Fame episode. You can knock out that book in a week.

It's a lot shorter than Dune. It is. And it's a great audiobook, by the way. That's how I re-experienced it this year. So we will also make sure that any Dune Messiah talk in the Paul Hall of Fame episode is safely sectioned off. And in the mailbag. This will all be like movie. like movie watcher all

friendly. We'll keep it all at the end. Okay. Dune Part 2 based on Frank Herbert's classic. Dune and it's equal to Dune Part 1 DER. Released March 1st just a few days ago was delayed by the Guild Strikes from November

third release. It would have come out like roughly two years after the first film as is just a little bit over. That's actually kind of a remarkable turnaround for this movie if you think about it, given the scope and the tremendous, like, technical effects and everything that's involved in this. So quite an accomplishment for director Denis Villeneuve. This film was written by Villeneuve and John Spates. And I just want to shout out cinematographer Greg Fraser, who also did the cinematography

for the first Dune film, did The Batman, did Rogue One. Like, he's one of my favorite working cinematographers. And I think since so much of this movie is, like, just an overwhelming visual extravaganza, it is worth noting Fraser's work. And then also shout out to the great Hans Zimmer and his team of interns for the score on Doom Part 2, which is somehow just as good as the iconic score for Dune 1. So unbelievable. Here we go.

Opening weekend snapshot. Malarab, do you want to take us through some facts and figures and numbers? Let's do it. The movie's a hit and people love it. Let's start there. Yes. Bottom line. The,

whenever we record these deep dives on Monday, we always say that it's possible that the numbers will be updated in real time as we're recording. But at the time of our recording, here are the opening weekend figures for Dune Part 2. Domestic box office,

81.5 million. International box office, 97 million. That takes us to 178 million. globally. Joanna, that's great. This is the biggest opening of the year. You might say, okay, well, it's pretty early in the year. Can I have some context beyond that? It's the biggest opening since Taylor Swift's the era's tour film. Taylor Swift, I'm yada ball. The other chosen one narrative. Is anyone in the Kelsey family dating anyone in Dune part two?

Inquiring minds want to know. Oh, I do want to know. And will they podcast about it? Dune Part 1, let's recall, we talked about this at the time, was a dual box office and HBO Max release. Joanna, I watched this at home, Dune Part 1, many times, because I was still, like, terrified to go to the movie theater. And so seeing Part 2 in the theater with you and Steve and our Ring orverse family, just an incredible joy in so many respects. How did June Part 1 do comparatively, Joe? Did about half. I mean, again, it was a dual release. People were worried about COVID.

But at $40 million for opening weekend for Doom Part 1 compared to the 81.5 for Doom Part 2, international, much higher $180 million. So global 220. So double domestic. Internationally, they were less concerned about COVID at that point, I suppose. this Doom Part 2 is the best opening ever for director Denisville, which is not surprising because his last best was Doom Part 1. So he bested the last Dune movie with this Dune movie. It's a good time to be a Villeneuve head.

Rotten Tomatoes check in. Imperfect metric, as we always like to say, right now, though Doom Part 2 is sitting pretty with 93% critics, 95% audience, compared to the slightly muted, 83% for critics for Doom Part 1, 90% for audiences. If you recall, and we talked about this at the time, there was this, like, anti-Dune sentiment that came out of its can premiere. And so, you know, folks were not, folks at that festival were not feeling it. And it, Dune had to overcome that narrative to become the sort of cultural phenomena that it then became. I was thinking back to the, this is part one.

Oh, I know. The outrage that the film found itself in. Wild times back when part one emerged. Here's my take on the 83% round tomato score. Like you said, in perfect metric, we always say it. It's always true. A shame and an outrage and a scandal. That's how I feel about that.

Seriously. We've talked about Villeneuve many times before on the potty's. One of my favorite directors, I love all of it. his movies and seeing the 83 for Dude Part 1 actually floored me and left my jaw hanging open. I don't understand this at all. Rewatch Dune Part 1 multiple times in the last week. That movie fucking rules. Oh, it absolutely rules.

So this is a part of the podcast where we tell you what we think and you might have a slight indication about whether or not we liked this movie, but Mallory, for the record, did you like Doom Part 2? first of all, how did you see it other than sitting next to me? And thirdly, did you go without him this weekend?

Like, have you seen it a second time? Did you go without him this weekend? What did you do? Thanks for asking. You're welcome. I thought this film, Yeah. Dude in Part 2,

was absolutely breathtaking. This is one of my favorite movies I've ever seen, seriously. And I wonder sometimes when I have a really, really intensely strong positive or negative reaction to something, how much of it is recency bias. I feel fairly certain this will stand the test of time with me. This is one of the great genre films, one of the great sci-fi adaptations, one of the great

adaptations of a sacred seminal text, period. It is an outstanding action film. I think that the balance, we talk a lot, you know, on Game of Thrones, pods and elsewhere about that. The difficult balancing act of story and spectacle and how many properties at some point make the wrong trade-off, I think for the rest of our experience

together as people who consume adaptation and blockbuster storytelling and IP expansion and all of the things that touched Dune and the Dune moment in time that we're in some way, we'll be able to point to this as an example of the best version of the thing.

Something that is irrefutably the product of one creator's particular desire and vision and shaping of it. We talked on our part one pot a lot about Denisville News personal fandom for Dune and love of the text and how apparent that is. But does that mean it is a note for note beat for beat utterly adherent? It doesn't. And that's part of the genius of these two movies that we have gotten. they feel at home in the space that they exist in and the time that they inhabit. I thought the performances were astonishing.

Like, I, the last hour from Timmy is just like gobsbacking. The score, the visuals, the scope, the scale, watching it with you guys in what, what, you and Steve were referring to as a limax, which. me'd be really chuckle. I was like, wow, look at the screen, and you guys were both like, Limex. You can really tell which of us gets out the most, which of us never leaves our home. You can feel every beat of the sound treatment in your bones.

We saw it on a Limex screen, but with Dolby sound. The sound was shaking our seats. Like, it was incredible. Unbelievable. Could barely hold the popcorn buckets steady in our hands. And yes, all of us got the popcorn. buckets. Everyone on this Zoom. Damn it, got that popcorn bucket. I did see it again this weekend with Adam. He's, even things that Adam loves, he just, that's actually part of what I find endearing

about him. He can't help but start by listing the 20 things that bothered him or that he's ready to critique. That is not what happened with this movie. He was just like, wow, what an achievement. He really did it, huh? Wow. You know, I mean, it's, yeah. It's like, I just thought this was spectacular. It's the kind of movie I can't wait to rewatch. I'm so excited to talk about it with you today. I can't wait. Like, I texted my dad about it the second. I saw it.

He's the first person who gave me to read. I can't wait for him to see it. I can't wait to talk about it with him. I just thought this was sensational. What did you think? Mowellie. That was my Mallory impression. Yeah, so I saw it at first time in San Francisco.

Not an IMAX. Dolby Sound, though, with our colleague, Rob Mahoney. And it was extraordinary. And when the movie ended, Rob turned him and he was like, Joe. That was sick. which it was.

And then I drove my ass down to L.A. to see it with the Ringervor's crew. It was like really the only reason I came down and it was a delightful, like zero regrets. Ringiverse and Big Pick saw this together. Yeah. It was beautiful. It was absolutely gorgeous. I loved seeing with all of you and it made me really happy.

And then I did do the thing in the lobby where I was like, but that was because it was my second viewing, I think. And I'm seeing it again tonight. After we're done recording, I'm going to go see it again. I was supposed to see it last night, but it got delayed. So I'm seeing it again a third time. I can't wait to see it for a third time. I can't wait.

And I still haven't seen it on a full blown Z's IMAX screen. And I'm making plans to do that in San Francisco, like maybe. Very difficult to get a ticket. After we get back from South by, that's my plan. So I want to just be like more, even more overwhelmed than I already was. This is, you know, Danique gave this somewhat controversial interview. before the film premiered about how he values dialogue and film less than maybe some other filmmakers do.

He said it a little bit more abruptly than that. But I love dialogue, Mallory, and I love to quote things, dig into long passages, blah, blah, blah. But watching how Denise has made these movies and something like Blade Runner, you can, he is so good at invoking emotion with simply the. the visuals and the sound that he is presenting to you, that I can't bring in myself, my heart to be, like, frosty about that quote because I'm like, I get what he's saying,

which is like, here's how I tell the story. And he's so, not everyone can do it, he is so good at it. The adrenaline coursing through us when we watch the worm riding sequence. God, astonishing. Just astounding. I can't remember a, we'll talk about sort of the physical. properties of it, but like an effect that was as effective as that, and especially since it is based on a very famous and, like, yeah, iconic.

I'm just going to use that iconic chapter from a book that we both love. And so to say, oh, my God, he did it. And he had me, like, I know exactly how this is going to go. And he had me gripping, like, the arms of my chair. I felt like I was on the back of the worm with Paul. You just overwhelmed by the sound. you can basically taste the sand in your mouth. It's just so immersive.

And it's funny because this morning when I was sort of collecting some clips for us, the worm ride is up on YouTube. You can watch it. And I watched it. I was like, it's just not the same. It doesn't hit the same, man, on my desktop as it does when I'm being like blared with sound and music and emotion and all the things that are just so overwhelming about watching it in the theater. So I'm so glad you got to watch this in the theater, even though I know you loved Doom Part 1.

And I'm really like maybe for Doom Part 3, we should go to like a marathon and see both in the theater again before Doom Part 3. Twist my arm. I mean, you can't because it's in the popcorn bucket. In like eight years from now. Hopefully it won't be eight years. Hopefully we're looking more like the three to four year hinge, though he does have a lot of other movies to make as it keeps as it keeps mentioning. Yes, count me in for the marathon. Absolutely.

Okay. So we love this movie. We love watching it with each other. We love watching one of the people. We're going to go watch it again. We did have those absolutely astonishing popcorn bucket. How much popcorn did you actually eat out of that thing? Because I will admit, I ate very little popcorn out of my bucket.

Almost all of it. I was starving. Yeah. The mechanism of it, I was just like, this feels like too important. I also had my sourpatch watermelons. You did. Iconic. Yeah.

Any plants? teacher plans for your bucket? Are you going to bring it to every screening? What are you going to do? So I've already posed Halo with it for a few photos. I have a longer, more expansive photo shoot in mind. We'll see if he's interested in participating. I don't know.

I don't know if he'll be up for it. I think I'll probably put it on a shelf, you know? Keep it as merch. Port a bride. You know, I love merch. I do know that you love merch. $25 so I will be keeping it. Also, Mallory was like, is this clean enough for me to put popcorn in?

Also, yes, I did have a germaphobe quandary about whether to actually consume my popcorn out of the paper buckets that we all also received or that, but I went for it. I lived in the moment. It was simply far too much popcorn. Also, Mallory was like, I can't wait to take photos with the bucket. I can't wait to, like, that was part of the whole experience for you. Love a team photo. If folks want to have more thoughts or feelings about the popcorn bucket, do you have any recommendations for them?

I'd like to direct everyone to a piece of journalism that I think requires your attention. Capital J journalism. It is from our colleague Austin Gail, and it is a detailed breakdown of all the things that you can do with the Dune Popcorn Bucket. did at one point ask me if I could send him a picture of Hala with the bucket. He did not tell me why. It turned out it was for that piece. So Hala isn't the piece. Not that you need extra enticement, but there he is. I won't spoil the kicker of Austin's piece for you, but I will say it's worth reading to the end. Please enjoy. A very happy ending for that bucket article from Austin on the ringer.com. What a great website. All right. We're going to do, what we're

to do now is a brief history of doom, but I'm going to call it a brief, brief history of doom. Because if you want the full treatment, you can just listen to our doom part one podcast, because we lingered on this section longer in that one of our very first pods that we recorded together. Wild. Back when I first started here at the ringer. But, you know, just to refresh. Yeah.

They can stir up. Frank Herbert, inspired by an article on the sand dunes of Oregon, wild. Just love that. He was sort of, he was ecologically inspired, influenced by Islamic and Middle Eastern cultures, the Arabic languages, matriarchal cultures. But then also, on top of all that, Frank Herbert just thinks the size are bad, okay? And I'm going to, I'm going to give you a little quote that we didn't have on part one from Herbert himself, who says, it began with a concept to do a long novel about the messianic convulsions, which periodically inflict themselves. inflict themselves on human societies,

I had this idea that superheroes were disastrous for humans. Yeah. Frank Herbert and Martin's course. Out here saying the same thing over decades. Herbert was inspired by reading the Seven Pillars of Wisdom, which is written by T.E. Lawrence, who you might know as,

aka Lawrence of Arabia, and there are, you know, endless parallels you can draw between the story of Lawrence of Arabia and Paul Atreides. There are also certain passages from the Seven Pillars of Wisdom that he just airlifted over into Dune. So that's just something to think about

where you're thinking about why Frank Herbert wrote this book. What did Dune in turn inspire Malibin other than everything? Other than our love of story? Yeah. Last thing we should mention while we're talking about Frank Herbert's inspiration

is just that this guy loved magic mushrooms and you can tell. Who doesn't? I mean, I've never... You can tell. It's just a, it's a story about a lot of things. Ecological peril, political strife and turmoil, the Messiah myth, the peril of the Messiah myth, and also drugs. Yeah.

Also that. Yep. Also that. Yeah. Joe, have you heard of a story? It's a small little property. Mm. Mm.

called Star Wars Mm-hmm Chosen one set on a sandy desert planet where it's also just called spice Chosen One myths abound The Sarlac Pit Inspiration is a direct

A to B line, etc. Obviously like a lot of the stories that we talk about together today that define genre storytelling today and over the decades between Dune and where we are now in some way trace their influences or their history to Dune. Dune is one of the seminal sci-fi texts. And one of the things that we really love about assessing whether we're talking about Star Wars or Thrones or Harry or Avatar or Miyazaki or Wheel of Time or anything else. We're always talking about Wheel of Time. We are always talking about Wheel of Time. Maybe one day we will always

be talking about Wheel of Time. Where are the lessons and the influences manifesting directly? And where are some of those, hey, chosen ones are bad lessons? Maybe not heated. It's a

fascinating thing to see how that influence manifests in each tale that followed. The Thrones and very specifically John Snow you know, just like heat waves coming off of Doom Part 2 cannot have escaped to anyone's notice.

So, yeah. Thank you for shouting at Trammers. It's very important. I know it is. Again, Mallory and I spent a lot of time on the Part 1 podcast that we recorded a couple years ago talking about what Dune has meant to us. Mallory has told a beautiful story of her father, you know, giving this book to her. I did a reread of Dune and also a reread of Dune Messiah, which I hadn't, I hadn't re-read Dune

Missy in a long time. And I just want to say that it has so many complexities, so much, like, rich world building. It's all famous for that, but it's just, like, lyrically beautiful language. Just, like, absolutely lyrically beautiful language. And that was something I was focusing a lot on in this most recent reread is just how poetic he is. And like oftentimes with sci-fi, it can the prose can feel a bit like cold and clinical. And this is just so sumptuous and, you know, warm as a desert planet. And I just love this book.

And if you haven't read it, I really, and you love the films. Like give the book a world because there's even more waiting for you there. You will not be disappointed. It really is sensational. You can see why it's a touchstone for so many. I love Dune for a lot of reasons. I think every time I return to it, I have such a vivid memory of reading it for the first time.

It is one of those like formative reading experiences for me where I can actually like, I can like picture the bed spread, you know, on the bed that I was on when I read it, like that kind of memory, which I love. It's just such a wonderful feeling. Like I remember recommending it immediately to other friends. I think often. I have the copy that my dad gave me still and has this lovely little inscription from him,

so I like to look at that. It's just like such a, it's a beautiful memory around a beautiful story. And it's my favorite kind of reading experience, which is like you can think about, again, the influences and the connections and those webs and ties, which is a fun meta thing and a story about, can you anticipate paths? What can you see in the visions of the future? Do you know how a decision that you make will actually then manifest ahead of you? but like there's always something new to discover when you revisit Dune.

Obviously in a moment of exploration and active adaptation, it's really satisfying to see like, well, which characters didn't make the cut either literally or maybe into the fullestic scent or what aspect of the tale was brought to the four. Villeneuve has talked in many interviews about like making the active decision to center the Benny Jesuit aspect of the story at the expense of the mentad aspect of the story, etc. There are a number of different aspects you could cite. But again, it's like I'm struggling to think of too many other adaptations that I think do this good of a job, not only of just being unbelievably satisfying on their own merits, but of centering in on the elemental aspect of the thing,

like the purpose of the story. Paul thinks a lot in the book about his terrible purpose. very, I'm burning. Loki's got his glorious purpose and Paul has his terrible purpose. And the purpose of the book, in all of its different forms, you know,

sci-fi is so often a cautionary tale. This is a story of right in many respects about, yes, messiahs and myth-making and religious fanatical adherence and following. But you never lose sight of the fact

that that could only spring into existence in a place like this, right? And the way that different levers are pulled and factors and variables compound, it just, the changes from book to film, like, none of that, that central element, that at that core of it is, is lost, which I just think is like a really difficult thing to achieve. And so that's part of the fun too is like actually it's, it's pretty different to read through the book and watch the film. Sometimes you get lines for line, beat for beat for beat, recreations.

And sometimes you go full chapters where you're like, wow, this is just like, I guess this is just like not really here, but it all feels of a piece so seamlessly.

It feels like we're riding, we're riding the same sandworm. We've called a grandfather. And we are, we are riding it through these dunes together. It's awesome. I think what Dania has pulled off here in making a film that is actually in many regards

wildly different from the book. and yet has like invigorated and excited, you know, massive fans of the book like you and I, whereas usually we're like, excuse me, that wasn't in the book, or you forgot this. And so what he has done is... It's fun for us to do impressions of ourselves, so like that. We're very good at it, I guess. I think that what he has done here is just expressed that he understands, fundamentally the core of the story.

And when you do understand the core of a story, you can play in the world. Absolutely. In a way, you know, he invents, like, he invents new lore elements of this world. And I'm just like, yep, yep, that seems and feels right.

And I love it. And it's great. So we love this movie. Have we mentioned? The good news is that Denise is going to plan to do a third film based on Dune Missile. We're quite excited for that. And then also there is a plan, the Doom Prophecy, it used to be called Dude Sisterhood,

now called Doom Prophecy, HBO Max series set 10,000 years before the events of the novel. And it follows two Harkin and Sisters as they basically established the Ben of Jesuit. And it stars Emily Watson, Olivia Williams, Jody May, Maggie the Frogger's self. like just incredible actors are involved in this. I'm very excited for this. It was on my hype draft, the Dune Prophecy TV series. Yep. Double Dune.

History might prove you right here, though. I mean, the year of Dune, you know? On the Dune Messiah front. Yeah. Obviously, Villeneuve has been talking about this since the first film, that this is his desire, that this is his intention, that he hopes to be able to make this a try. trilogy he hopes to be able to adapt doing Mosiah as well.

I think there is just in terms of the, how are these decisions made, how does a film perform aspect of this? No question that everybody involved will want to make the third film because both of the first two movies have been huge and successful. And this one feels like it could really become like a behemoth, both at the box office and critically award season feels like this will already, I mean, who knows? It's a long way, wait, but this is going to dominate next Oscars. I was talking about this, actually, after I got on my first screening.

And I have to wonder if, like, maybe they're going to return to the King and just sort of, like, wait until he's done with the trilogy to sort of keep the biggest awards on him. But certainly, this has got to scoop up in the technical categories, like, certainly. And I, and I, it's foolish in March to try to predict the shape of the Oscar season the following year. But looking at the slate, there isn't a ton of stuff. that I feel like is a massive threat to it. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But, like, we're going to get into all of this

and more detail as we go. The aspects of Dune Messiah, and again, we're not going to get into the specifics of the plot of Dune Messiah until the end of the pot, but just more broadly, like the overall focus and shape and intention, to get back to that idea of intention of the story, you don't make this movie this way.

I think this was actually even really apparent rewatching part one, unless you're planning to adapt Dune Messiah as well. And I've really enjoyed how candid Villeneuve has been in talking about the way he

there's a many, many, many pieces all over the internet. There are a number of great pieces on Dupar 2 on Entertainment Weekly. And Villeneuve gave an interview about Chani and some of the decisions with Chani's character,

which again, we'll talk. about more as we go, but I'm going to read a quote from him that was in the CW piece. When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, he was disappointed at how people perceived Paul. This also gets Joe to your kind of opening note about Herbert's feelings on. Messias and superheroes and messias. In his mind, Dune was a cautionary tale, a warning against charismatic figures. He felt that Paul was perceived as a hero when he wanted to do the opposite. So in order to correct that, he wrote Doom Messiah, a kind of epilogue that makes it very clear this story is not a victory.

It's a tragedy. Here's the part of the quote that I love. With humility, I hope that this adaptation is closer to Frank Herbert's original intentions. The way that some people are still not on the same page is a little worrisome to me. But yes, I mean, and Chani as the face of the resistance. Yes. I use Chani's character to do so. I gave her a different agenda

and used her to bring a different perspective to the story. So to say, like, with humility, I hope that maybe people get it here more than they did in Frank Herbert's actual book is like, in a way, you're like, whoa.

But again, I'm reading this. I'm like, yeah, yeah, there's something to this. I don't even feel like a whiff of that necessarily because I think what he's saying is like, oh, Frank Herbert overestimated, like how some muters already act to subtlety. So he already tried this and I'm learning from his

endeavor that a little less subtlety is required. So should we turn the score into a minor key and give Paula Trades of black cloak? I don't know, maybe. We'll talk about that. Okay. I love it. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech.

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Each of them sort of centered around a main character. performance that we want to talk about. So the first section here, speaking of adaptive changes, massive adaptive change for Rebecca Ferguson is Lady Jessica. So this is a section I'm calling prophecy or propaganda.

Rebecca Ferguson in this movie. Mallory doesn't talk during movies, but I just need you to know that she leaned over to me during this movie and just said she is stunning. And this one moment when frankly, she's a favorite of mine. Is staring down the screen like she would turn all of your bodies inside out in order to protect her son.

I just think she's elite. She's a favorite. So the main difference. You think we could pull off those face tats, Joe? I think you should go first and let me know how it goes. So the lady Jessica that we meet in the book, and, you know, if you've rewatched the David Lynch version recently, like the Lady Jessica that we meet there, is not in this role of aggressively and, again, sinisterly spreading propaganda and manipulating the Fremen into submission,

into worship for her son. She does undergo the water of life ceremony that, we see here she does have a creepy little baby. Like all of that does happen. We'll talk about Aaliyah more later. But this radical change in her personality, which I think Denny does a really good job of doing it as like a pre-post ceremony like the old Jessica's dead. This is the new lady Jessica and this is her fixation. I think he does a really good job of this.

I did not enjoy the fact that that had to take place in a crevice. Why did they go underground with so little headroom to do this? I don't know. It was making me sweat. I hated it. But what Lady Jessica is here, and we will return to this again and again and again, is sort of this externalized version of the internal conflict that happens to Paul in the book. So we have the advantage in the book of being inside Paul's head. So as Paul

navigates the nuances of what it means to be a leader, to have visions of the future, to have a prophecy, aka propaganda, sort of built up around you, all this sort of stuff like that. And his moral compass is sort of swinging around wildly as he's ruminating in all of this. Dinny, without, I think, obnoxious voiceover, Dinny cannot take us inside of his head. And so instead, what he does is he pulls out some of these things and sort of puts them into these other characters circling Paul. And so he makes the...

The word in the book that comes up a ton is Jihad, Holy War. Dinny opted to not... He opted to go for Holy War and said Jihad, I completely understand why. But the way that Paul talks about the jihad within himself as this thing that he needs to fight overcome weather is fascinating to me. But so Lady Jessica here acts as sort of a version of Paul, an externalized version of Paul as he exists in the book. And this idea of making her, like for Paul to be in conflict with her as he is here. has its roots in the book. Because in the book, Paul says about Jessica,

my mother is my enemy. She does not know it, but she is. She is bringing the jihad. She bore me. She trained me. She is my enemy. So he's saying that based on the fact that he exists, not on the fact that Jessica is wandering around spinning yarns for the locals,

which she's not in the book. And in fact, in the book, she calls Paul out on his own myth-making. Paul says religion unifies our forces. It's our mystique. And Jessica says, you deliberately cultivate this air, this bravura. You never cease indoctrinating. And Paul says, this you yourself taught me. Because, of course, she is an Jesuit.

So other than, Mal, are you being incredibly horny for Rebecca Ferguson? What did you make of this particular adaptive change? I loved this. Again, I thought this felt like very true. to the spirit of the story while being its own particular version of the thing. I found myself thinking back to like a very early exchange between the Reverend Mother and Jessica in the book,

Jessica Girl, I wish I could stand in your place and take your sufferings, but each of us must make her own path. And this idea of like the path, the path that you're on, again, is so central for Paul, but why wouldn't it be for Johnny too? Why wouldn't it be for Jessica to?

like everybody has their path and the question of how their paths inform each other is what's interesting. And I loved taking like the origin, right, is similar where like these moments of observation, you know, Jessica in the book, these freemen are beautifully prepared to believe in us where the recognition of how people are observing Paul and what the Beny Jesuit missionaria protectiva has done here, the extent of it, the readiness then that they find because of this work, the purpose that Jessica knows is behind all of this. And amplifying and heightening that so that Jessica is seeking to exploit this readiness made perfect sense to and then using that as a way to like examine a rift in a,

from a slightly different angle, I thought was, was brilliant. Like some of my favorite moments of the film were these like, bordering on insidious. Yes. Jessica moments. Like the,

you're right. And we should say like unlike when we're watching an episode of television or something on a streamer, we don't have like word for word transcripts. the quotes here doing our best. But if we want to protect your brother, we need all the firmament to believe in prophecy. We must convert the non-believers one by one,

like the active heightening of this quest. I think one of the, we like joked about it based on the, that's not hope from the trailers because that was so central, the marketing in the movie. That moment in the film gave me a full bite, chill. Yeah.

Like Paul standing there next to his mother and looking out and saying, what your people have done to this planet is heartbreaking. That's the word he uses. Heartbreaking. We gave them something to hope for. That's not hope. And for that to be the tension that he is trying to navigate

and that will define the course of this experience, there's this aspect of like only the people you know and trust and the people who have shaped you. can be relied upon or can know you. And then there's this aspect for us as viewers or readers. And then for the other people in the story, like, how complicit are you in the thing that you've become? And like Paul thinking about his training and what his mother shaped him to be.

And then whether he's going to actively rebel against that or like the thopter and the sandstorm in the first film, like, roll with the flow, ride the storm. Whatever has been done to me, I've been a party to it, he thought. That's a Paul intermodelogue moment in the book. And like there's a truth to that, but also like a tragedy to the aspects of that that are untrue because how how much could you be a party to a thing that was set into motion before you had any active hand in it? It's just so rich. From a storytelling perspective, too, I love how the film.

has very little time to remind us of Paul and Jessica's connection before she takes, you know. She just has like a couple scenes. And in the first action sequence, when she sort of saves him and then comes storming down the dune scolding him for the way that he was standing with his back, you know, exposed to the dune, you know, it's just like a great reminder of like her power, her care, her concern, who trained him, all this sort of stuff.

And then her interactions with Stilgar, like, again, just very little time to remind us of Doom Part 1, Jessica, before we are just into blue eye, tattoo face, increasingly elaborate headgear territory. So I thought that was really, it's really efficient. There's a number of, like, really efficient storytelling moments in this film. Yeah, and like one of the tradeoffs in that efficiency with this particular aspect of the story is like we don't have the time to linger in Jessica's, because Paul has his fear and his terror and his uncertainty, but that's a very palpable thing for Jessica as Paul is the visions, the spice activating this power, the watching the number of people including like reluctant figures in the story like a kind. say, right? Really

start to one by one by one the tally grows of who believes that he could be this figure of prophecy. Like, I'm afraid of my son. I fear his strangeness. I fear what he may see ahead of us, what he may tell me. I feel like that, like, tweaks started even in part one, the incredible

tent scene when Paul is. You made the beautiful point in our first pod about how that's another example of a smart change, right? Like the detachment from grief that Paul feels in book and then this just like wave of uncontainable rage and fear and emotion that he's experiencing in the tent. The fear is so present in him. And so we have to have this counterweight, right?

This like ability for Jessica to say, maybe this is the path. Maybe I should help you see that. Right. And so again, it is, it is different, but in a way that in this version of it really makes sense and tracks. I think what's true. And it's just not something that makes it the, movie feel less intelligent or anything like that. It's just like motivations and divided purposes of something like that have to be simplified, boiled down, unified in order to tell as much story as there is to tell. He already had to split this movie into two films. I'm so glad they are films because I think they should be these massive, immersive, overwhelming cinematic experiences, but there are some beats that I'm like, well, if this were a TV series,

like I don't want it to be really. I like that it's movies, but, you know, we'll get to later just like a few little holes in the cheesecloth that I like would have loved to see a little bit more of something or the other. But I would never say that this movie should be longer. We all have limited bladders. Let's go full of the rings. Extended edition.

Let's get a 3.45 cut out there. Another example of that is Stilgar, right? Javier Bedem. This is an iconic performance. Wonderful in this film. So good. He is charged with carrying pretty much all of the humor in this movie, and he does a really, really good job.

Oftentimes, again, as you mentioned, with lines that are just lifted directly from the book, and I never really read them in the book. the way that he delivers them. He just delivers it with just such like easy wit and charm that it's just, and it's actually like kind of different from how he was characterized in the first little, but I'm not mad about it at all. I think it is a very important counterbalance to a lot of the more somber, serious doom and gloom that we get elsewhere.

But also Stilgar has been transformed into this pure believer, which is not, again, which is an oversimplification of who he is in the book. And in fact, like, some really brilliant parts of the book talk about the way in which Paul feels like he, like, loses still. I mean, he says this similarly at one point in the movie as well, but like loses who Stilgar was as a friend and a companion to this worship. And that, again, there's a sadness for Paul in that. But Stilgar has to stand in for the Fremen who, as you cited, Jessica says, are ready to believe. believe. And this is one of the epigraphs. There's all these epigraphs in every chapter of Dune, most of them written by Aeron, say sayings of the Maldiv. Anyway, this is one. It says,

it is vital to an understanding of Maldives' religious impact that you never lose sight of one fact. The Fremen were a desert people whose entire ancestry was accustomed to hostile landscapes. Mysticism isn't difficult when you survive each second by surmounting open hostility. So as you said earlier, it kind of had to be this planet with these giant sandworms and this hallucinogenic spice

and all this other things in order for this particular messianic narrative to grab hold. What did you make of this depiction of Stilgar? He's not going to be the only character I say this about the movie. I have no no-nose. I thought this was like downright flawless.

Yeah. another epigraph from our gal, the princess Aeron. This is from the wisdom of Mwadib. This is one of the great things about reading the book is like, you're going through it. And you're like, Maudib must really go on to live quite a life. A lot of books written about him. Yeah. It's this kind of pre-context.

Yeah, there's spoilers in the epigraphs. A, Ariland's going to know him pretty well. Pretty well. Yeah. It's great stuff. God created Iraqis to train the faithful. Like, what a perfect encapsulation of that idea, this place, this people, why here, why now? This readying over eons and generations to come to the fore, to come to a head here. Stilgar as the embodiment of that. I loved like the number of, I love the time we spent with the Fremen. I loved this idea and the presentation of this idea in the film of the northern fremen, the southern fremen.

There's that great, like, you can't... Fundamentalist. You can't tell, like, he's from the south. You don't hear his accent moment. The accent line is so funny. That's great stuff. Yeah. And, yeah, this idea that the fundamentalists, the true believers, are waiting in a place

that you can't go. The enemy thinks is uninhabitable, that Paul. We'll talk about this more later in a book to film distinctions. But in the film that Paul is steadfastly determined not to go because he fears what will happen there. But the whole time we're listening to Stilgar, we're watching Stilgar, we're seeing the other people who he's praying with and communing with. There's this undeniable aspect of, even though everything does really reach a boiling point when Paul is down there, it doesn't matter. Look how far the word has spread. And this was, I think, one of the funniest moments in the movie, but also one of the best encapsulations of the Beny Jesuit propaganda reaching the point of unyielding prophetic heft.

The Mahdi is too humble to say he is the Mahdi. Like, this is perfect. This is a huge laugh full times that I saw. Just like a big laugh. But also. Killed in the theater. And it's like, right. Amy think he does.

And we love to assess this in stories as like, when are the people in the world making their way to the thing they're seeking to avoid? This is one of the aspects too is like, what aspect of the prophecy do you interpret or warp or twist to apply? And sometimes it's the person at the center of it or the person who is fueling it who is doing it. And sometimes it just the person who has been on the receiving. leaving end who can't wait to say like here it is the the truth of my life like unfolding in front

of me you know it reminds me of the great moment with uh with our gal mapes in the book and of course in the first film kills me every time my lady sad that the listeners can't see the arm movements that went along with that Steve has already put it on the sidewalk When one has lived with prophecy for so long, the moment of revelation is a shock. Like, what sparks that? And this is a great bit of, to your inner monologue point, like getting even more insight in the book than you do in the film in part one. Jessica's about to say something else, like, maker of death, finish this thought. But just saying the word maker elicits this response.

And then the character starts to look for clues. if I say this, is it going to be the right thing? Is it the thing that they're expecting me to say? Because they think that this is Lisa Nalgaib, the psychology at play, the tactics at play, and then Stilgar is this embodiment of like the person whose entire existence, a hard existence, but a successful one, a leader of a siege, a trusted member of this fierce freemen group,

it doesn't matter if you believe. I believe, right? Like this is a thing that he says with every ounce of his being behind it. We build toward a point where he is begging Paul to challenge him and take his life so that Paul can move into the position

of being allowed to speak. That was one of my favorite moments in the movie. That whole sequence I thought was extraordinary. But Paul, like, again, I'm paraphrasing. You guys all think I'm a dip shit, right? Like, I'm gonna, deprive myself of the blade before the fight. What a great line.

It's such a good thing. Incredible. Yeah. That brings us to Paul Otrades. Ah. Okay, so first things first. As we said, we're doing an entire Paul Atreides episode in the future. So forgive us if we go a little light here on Paul.

This is our, in my best show. John as Johnny, tell me if your home world, Ussel. I think that Adam has said this in our time together more than any other thing that I've heard him say. Tell me of your home world, Usil. He just like quotes the Lynch movie all the time. All the time. Tell us of our future pod on Ussel. Like, we're going to have more.

We have so much to say. But we didn't want to, like, not talk about Paul. And that would be weird. And our Doom Part 2 podcast. So we're going to lightly touch on. On some things. And I wanted to follow up the Jessica segment with this Paul segment because in turning Jessica into this sinister, intentional spreader of propaganda, it allows Paul to slip into a slightly less complicated Messiah figure who's fearful of his fate until he's not. In other words, the words of our guy, John Snow, what is it, Steve?

I don't want it. There it is. Thank you. This Paul, movie Paul, doesn't want it. Let us go back in time to do part one to a conversation that laid track for this. I told my father I didn't want this either. I wanted to be a pilot. Or told me that.

Your grandfather said, a great man doesn't seek to lead. He's called to it. And he answers. And if your answer is no. you'll still be the only thing I ever needed you to be my son i found my own way to it maybe you'll find yours i love that scene this scene which is so beautiful everyone's like wearing incredible coats the uh you might have heard some like seabirds in the background um but there's a lot of focus on the on the ducal ring the seal um and so then there's like an overt reference to this exchange when paul

first takes the ring off and says to no one I found my way, father and puts the ring away. He's like, I'm not, my heart. I'm not going to be a Duke. I'm going to be a Fremen. This is what I'm going to do. And then he takes the ring back out and puts it back on when he decides, actually, I'm going to become a Duke. No, actually, I'm going to become an emperor. And, you know, makes the emperor kiss his father's ring.

father's rings, father's swords, all this sort of stuff, very powerful mythic storytelling. But this transformation for Paul, because Paul, it should be said, there are definitely times in the book where Paul is fearful, reticent, you know, all these various things about the path forward. But what's true in the book, and again, we'll talk about this more in the Paul episode, but what's true in the book is that he actively chooses this path, knowing that there's really only one conclusion. He sees another path for himself that involves, like, directly challenging the Harkinans.

There's other things that he could do. But in terms of going and joining the Fremen, there's only one outcome and it's jihad, it's holy war. And so then he rationalizes to himself going forward, well, it won't be as bad if I'm alive. If I die a martyr and they're going to do it without me, it's going to be worse. So I might as well be here to kind of keep a lid on everyone knows the Holy War could definitely have a lid on it, right?

So to keep a lid on it. That's his sort of rationalization. But he is afraid of this Holy War as he is in the movie. But there's much more active seeking of it as well that he does. I love the language, again, that Frank Herbert uses when these moments of Paul thing about the jihad crop up. There's one quote, overall looms the jihad,

bloody and wild, or is my favorite, Paul felt the ghost wind of the jihad, sort of like in the words of the others that he's listening to. So I just think it's really interesting. And then, like, as you alluded to, Paul in the books,

wants to go south. South is where he can have rest and relaxation and just like chill with Chani and like take a break. So the South represents something very different for him in the book. But I think it was so smart of Deni to make this South, make this geographic location, the sort of like fork in the road for Paul. If I go south, if I physically go here, this is what happens. I think I thought that was really smart.

Again, boiling down but not, you know, rendering it unintelligent. Mallory Rubin. What do you want to say about Paul? Atreides here? Well, where to begin and how to contain it inside of this pod since we're doing an entire follow-up podcast. Let's see. I think it's fair to say that this is the reason we wanted to do

the Hall of Fame on Paul, the character study on Mouadib. I think that Paul is one of the most fascinating characters in the history of science. story for some of the ideas that we are most interested in discussing inside of genre tales. Prophecy, myth-making, reluctant hero, anticipatory hero. I love a reluctant hero. I love a reluctant hero. But then like these, Paul is a character defined by tipping points in fulcrums and like,

I think specifically an obsession with. the question of whether he can control those tipping points because he can anticipate them. And so, I mean, there are so many passages we could be here like all day reading them. And maybe we will be. We'll see a Paul Al-Fame episode next week. It's possible. But one of the things that I love most about being in Paul's mind in the book when he has a vision or is thinking about a vision or arrives at a moment he calls like blind ground, a moment that he hasn't seen. seen and can't anticipate.

And there's, there are parts of the story where he finds that, like, Paul felt a kind of elation, right? It awakens him to be in a moment that he hasn't anticipated, but also, if you are anticipating, then you can seek to avoid or secure, right? So I, I'm not surprised that the, the epigraphs are coming up a lot because they are, much like this podcast oriented around the idea of centering a key theme. I've always loved this one. This is from Aracus Awakening by the Princess Irulan.

She's prolific. She is. I mean, Rebecca Yaros, move over. How many New York Times bestsellers would the Princess Irrillon have at one time? Seriously. She'd run the whole chart, I think. Muadib could indeed see the future. But you must understand the limits of this power.

Think of sight. You have eyes, yet cannot see without light. If you're on the floor of a valley, you cannot see beyond your valley. Just so, Muadib could not always choose to look across the mysterious terrain. He tells us that a single obscure decision of prophecy, perhaps the choice of one word over another, could change the entire aspect of the future. So this is essential to understanding Paul Atreides, that he is a character who is thinking about that constantly.

Always. Every single, which doesn't seem like a pleasant way to live. Every single thing you do or think about or contemplate and consider, that is hanging over you, right? Will this be the right decision? There's this Ben-Jezerite connection to this, right? Think you carefully on this Ben-Jeserite proverb and perhaps you will see any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. So this is just like inextricable from the story and the aspect of prophecy in the story. If you're constantly thinking about the endpoint, you can't really understand how to take a single step, let alone reach that endpoint.

And so this is just always on our minds when we're thinking about Paul. The Paul that we get in the movie, I think is just sensational. Like I, there are so many ways that this could have been. I really love the point that you're making about the effective and strategic simplification. of some of these ideas and presentations. And I wonder if Paul could be as successfully rendered absent that because it like allows, allows him to be positioned as a character who could say to Gurney, for example.

Like we have the joy in our hearts. The genuine emotion of the Gurney reunion and him saying like the calling back to the footstep line, right? Like it's beautiful. And this hellscape around them. And they're talking about, because Gurney is, of course, like, approaching this as anyone would, seeing what Paul has done so quickly the allegiance that he has amassed. The way that these tales have spread, like they fear you. There's this reverence.

And the way that Paul says, fear is all we have. With this resignation, but also this despair, but also inside of that, this despair, a recognition of the power and that kind of person. pursuit. When we build toward like the the Harkinen reveal for Jessica, the parentage, like we're Harkinens will fight like Harkinens. Like the instant, it's, he's appalled, but also the instant inside of that despair embrace of the pursuit that you now know you are able to make, like the permission he gives himself to be a certain kind of person and the number of different times we get to watch that. Sometimes it's a seesaw, right?

Like, it's in part one in the science center with Kines. It was like, make me emperor, I'll make Iraqis a paradise with the wave of my hand. Like the marriage plot and that sort of tactical thinking

is happening all the way back in part one. And then receding, right, all of these conversations with Chani about how the rejection of this Lisanalga I mantle the idea that the fremen should be led by one of their own.

And then the building, I can't go south. You know why I can't go south. There's like a terror. Yes. That is overtaking him. And then the rise, like this crescendo when he raises up his hand and it says who he is, right? And uses his name the way that others do is a war cry. Yeah.

It's like chilling. I mean, like you said, these are long movies. It's a long book. But there's a part of me that's like, it's kind of amazing, actually, to be able to pull off that nuance of an arc in that short of a span of time, south of five hours. Not only that, but. When we get a five-hour TV season, we're like, this was not enough time to do this. I know exactly.

I'm like, night country should have been eight episodes. The rise and fall of the Chani Paul love story. Like that's incredible. Tragic. The nuance of that, just to skip head, well, could skip back. But like, I think the moment that I like gasped in appreciation for an efficient line of dialogue that tells so much the story is when he wakes from his nightmare and she says it's been a long time since you have one of those. So then we know that they've been sharing a tent together for a long time now. Yes.

And sharing the gift of their body's moisture. for a long time. Yeah. With just like, you know, like with less than 10 words, you know, that's just beautiful, efficient storytelling. To go back to like the part one, part two split and the way in which the novel is split into three parts, but the first part being, you know, how Satratis comes to Iraqis and sort of what happens there. And that intentionally in that section, Frank Herbert is presenting to you.

in Paul Atreides. And throughout his journey, actually, there are all these hallmarks of the hero's journey to sort of like intentionally loll you the reader. Oh, yes. Into admiration and rooting for Paul. Timothy Salome is like perfect casting for this. He's so like elfin and gylis. And especially if you watch the first movie, he looks so much, even though he's already in his 20s, he looks so much younger.

He looks like a boy. He's just a boy. In the first movie, you know. And this is what Herbert said about sort of the seduction of the audience into Paul's thrall. He says, all of this is couched in a form which makes Paul and his people admirable. I am their advocate. But don't lose sight of the fact that House of Trades acts with the same arrogance towards, quote, common folk as do their enemies. I am showing you the superhero syndrome and your own participation in it, the arrogant are in part created.

by the meek. Prussian. So I think that I guess we can forgive people for misunderstanding Dune if Frank Herbert spends a lot of time and attention

on seducing the reader into rooting for Paul. That's sort of part of what he did there. I like that Dine did it with a sort of part one, part two. That wasn't like the only reason that he did that. But to like give us part one, And we're going to talk about so much, I promise, in the Pollard Trades episode.

But the Anakin parallels, you know, just rolling off of this are incredible. And with love and respect to people who love Anakin Skywalker and his Ark and Hayden and Clone Wars and all of that, I'm like, oh, this is how that should have gone. Right. But I think if we're only using those two films out of a trilogy, this is how that should have gone. where we're just sort of like the tightening grip of the tragedy looming around this chosen one. And, you know, as someone on Twitter responded to like an an anachan giff, I put up like a murder strut that you get off of Paul once he gets into his Anakin mode is extraordinary. So good. You have this in our notes, but the really unmistakable visual parallels of the

Anakin Murderstrand is iconic, the Anakin Murderstrap, but also Danny being subsumed by the adoring throngs at the end of season three in Yung Kai. Misa, Misa, when Paul is walking into the center of the horde. I mean, like, we're pinging. I think your point about John is just obviously intentional and correct. like the pinging on the heroes reluctant or doomed who are going to be very present in a viewer's mind when they sit down to see this film is obviously intentional. And I love, again, the cyclical nature of that because it's fun to think of a modern audience sitting down to see Doom Part 2 and thinking about the connections to Star Wars, which was, as we noted, inspired by Dune.

So, like, time is a flat circle, et cetera, et cetera. We were in the lobby after the movie. And I think it was Van who was like secret hearkened and is so secret Targaryen. And we both, like, in unism were like, George loves it. George loved dude. George loved dude. I think I don't know if I could pick a favorite line from the book. There are so many.

But maybe the one I think about the most. This is when Kinds' death is very different in the book. So this is in this incredible chapter where Kynes is hallucinating his father, parroting back the lessons of a life to him in his final moments. And one of the lines is no more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero.

Like, I don't think that Herbert could do a better job of stating the mission in the text. then that. And that's like a, it is a harrowing idea for us to have to confront. And so I think your, your beautiful point

about the split in the films and the structure and the building and the crescendo. I love how like there's room still inside of that for the tension and the conflict and the uncertainty and us and viewers end in Paul. Like,

again, long movies, but it's, there's not a ton of, separation between something like the naming sequence, which is this, like, beautiful, surging moment of identity and community and purpose, and both of the book and in the film, like the great moment where, again, the Stelgar really in the bag for the least one, Al-Qaib of it all. but like this idea that Moadip is wise in the ways of the desert and you have like I'll speak for myself but I think this is probably a shared experience for a lot of readers and viewers you feel proud of Paul like you feel like wow the ability that Paul had to forge this connection we can think back to like the film books in part one and the way that he's drawn to seeing the little little Muadip right away because I'm

leading us toward this moment. But, like, we're not super far away here from the exchange with Gurney. Like, all my visions lead to horror. Yeah. Because you lose control. Because I gain it. Like, Paul sees this peril. It's the thing that haunts him.

The Maudib sequences, okay. I'm just, like, so tempted to, like, do a close reading of this. But we're going to save it for the Paul episode. but I just want to say what I love about the Moadib naming and the Usul naming sequence in the book is that like Paul picks that word because he had a vision of that word and Jessica's like, oh shit, he is actively choosing Muadib because he knows that they call him Muadib and he is manipulating this moment. Whereas in the in the film it is this like beautiful little earnest moment built off. We're thinking about again those like the the film the film books that he watched,

the little joke from you know, Johnny's friend, etc. Like, it's just sort of this really sweet. And then, like, very, like, romantic sexual tension. Here comes Johnny to sort of press her cheek against his. Strength of the pillar, indeed. Not all she's going to press against him.

All right, we're not going there yet. We've got to take a detour. We're going to Gady Prime. Here's my question. I want to say, before you say anything here, that this was my favorite part of watching the movie next to you. because you were, you would tease that you were awed by the visual splendor of this, but you could not contain yourself physically watching this.

You were doing this is a podcast and people will not be able to see me, but you were reaching out your hand in front of you and doing this. Steve knows what I'm talking about because he was on the other side of you. I was doing it like sort of like, look at this. You're like, you were just pulled over by the visual splendor. And it was incredible. It was incredible to watch it in the movie, but also incredible to watch you watch the movie. Like, I will actually remember this forever.

Every time I see that scene, I will think of watching you watch it. I loved it. To be clear, just so who knows, we were in the back row of the theater. So that was purely for Mallory and Steve's benefit. I was not bothering anyone else, I hope, with like putting my arm up in the air and gesturing. Okay. Also, I should mention you had the dune popcorn bucket attached to your hand as you're doing that. I did not.

It was essentially like, are you kidding me with this? Yeah. So Mona Silence, if you please. For DeNevil knows tremendous world building the shape of this non-canonical black sun sequence and the stunning black and white way in which all of this is shot. Though, because we saw the black and white images in the trailer and a lot of us were like confused. And we're like, is it a fade route with flashback? Like, what are we doing here? And the gasp that I gusped when you see watch characters like emerge into the light of this sun

and the color bleed out of the frame and into black and white. Are you kidding me? Genuinely awe-inspiring to watch. I have not been genuinely not been this excited about a sci-fi podcast. planet since my beloved crate, the salt planet of The Last Jedi. But honestly, we have been making jokes about just how many kinds of planets can you, you know, like we've seen the desert planets. We've seen a jungle planet.

Like, are we out of Star Wars planets? And I'm like, holy shit. There's just a freshness and an inventiveness to this. It's like astonishing. All right. Here we get the introduction of Fade Ralfa, who I have called in the notes, the knife-looking, cannibal fucking bad boy of Canada. I'm getting prime.

No notes. Perfection. Just like this performance. What do you make of awesome butlers take here and his increasingly impressive mimicry skills? So I regret saying this about Stillgars earlier only because I don't want to diminish how sincerely I mean it when I say it here. I suspect that maybe this performance will not be for everyone. But to me, this is an instantly iconic. performance, like genuinely instantly iconic.

And one of the fun things about this is that, of course, things Fade Ratha in the Lynch film is also iconic. The more like costuming reasons than anything else. Yeah, and like leering and just sort of like almost being there as a, frankly, as like a piece of the set design more than anything. And so to like, hang on to some aspect of that, which is, I guess,

inextricable from the Harkinen experience in some respect, but create such a viscerally horrifying encapsulation of, like, the deranged striver was amazing. I, you know, obviously we knew

where, where it was going. for our beloved not barren fade. We knew it's not going to make it out in this movie. But there was a part of me that was so captivated watching him. I was like,

do we have to say goodbye to Austin Butler's fade route in Dune Part 2? Are we sure we have to say goodbye? Because it's just like riveting in a very upsetting way to watch him

the entire sexual humiliation aspect of the character. Again, I have no notes on this. This is just all inspired. Margot's read on him. Oh, my God. It's just incredible.

So good. So it's now, in hindsight, very apparent to me why we do not hear him in the trailers. Like, we see him. He's kind of like teased and there's this little spice sprinkle of fade for us. But we don't get the whole experience. It's like, so I was astonished to hear him speak for the first time. out loud.

I cackled. I had no idea that he was doing a St. Skars-Gar impression. I just had no idea. And obviously, Austin Butler's Elvis voice work and, like, inability to shake the Elvis voice is like a modern legend at this point. But I guess maybe we have to go from like this is a bit to he has a kind of inexplicable

talent for impersonating other people's voices. I just, I guess this is, do we know the story behind this? Like, He was like, I need you to let me do this because Dave Patista is not. I know. I feel like Dave was like, nobody gave me this note.

I didn't know we were. Oh, we're all doing, no one told me we were doing this. Like, it was just, I feel like, let me tell you a thing that I believe I should do. Just gravely, vaguely Swedish. That's what I'm going to do. No idea. This is true. Incredible.

Anyway. As you know, I really enjoyed this performance. As you know, I wanted Barry King for this role. Instead, we got him dancing naked and saltburn. and doing other things in Salt Burn if you haven't seen that piece of cinema. I like Austin here a lot.

A lot more than I usually do. He doesn't usually work for me. I think he's incredible in this. I think this is who I'm thinking of when I say a hole in the cheesecloth. I think I wanted one more scene. Sure. With Fade Rout.

Would have loved it. Yeah. I have an appetite for one more scene. And not just because I'm like, enjoying his performance, which I am, but I think I needed just like a little bit more information about this all comes down to the knife fight at the end, we'll talk about.

But I just want to, I want to know a little bit more about him and this movie version of him going into that fight than we wind up getting. Do you have a particular style of scene in mind? Would you have wanted something like very early in the novel when back when the meant that Peter is still alive and the Baron is,

but brings fate into like sit at, his knee and like study the plot. Like is that the kind of thing you would have wanted more of or something more where he's on his own and we can see him absent actually like the halo of of the baron and the plotting?

Like what do you think would have been most effective? Um, well, we know that. Or did you just want the sex scene with, with Margot? Margot? I mean, more than I do not say no. But we know that Stephen McKinley-Hunderson who plays Thiefer Howell

what was filmed something for this and then was cut. He spotted in the trailer. He's cut out of the final cut. He got a special thanks. This was a bummer. Yeah. Howitt and Fade have this complicated is too simple a term to whatever. I would have loved a scene with them.

I think that would have been. Because what I think I really need to understand, if we have a protagonist and an antagonist, and there's a fight, again, which we'll get to at the end. and one of them wins and one of them loses, I feel like I really want to know what about their character means that this person won and this person lost. I want to understand both characters very well.

What is the fatal flaw in this character that led to his loss or what is the inherent virtue in this other character that led to his victory? And so I think that's the, like, if I have like, if I just pick one thing, I think that's the one thing I'm missing from this movie. And I really do think we can solve it.

Release the Howitt Cut is my point. I have no information that their scene was together. I don't know what he was doing in the movie before you got cut. I do want to do a quick compare and contrast between the way that this gladiator fight was adopted for the screen. Because again, it sort of slightly changes this depiction of Fade Ralfa. Yeah. in that in this version it is the baron's idea to surprise fade raltha in in the arena with an undrugged slave and as he says like show me who you really are happy birthday show me who you really are this like

fucked up sick and twisted test of the nabarine fade his most beloved uh you know relative right um and so I think it's interesting that the version that Deney decides to put together here gives us a fade Routha who has like he has a code. He has a certain, like he's disgusting and twisted and all sorts of stuff like that. But then he has a certain like nobility. He's psychotic. Nobility to him. Like when he tells the handlers to back off of the slave, this is between us. How can we not think of Jamie Lannister and the.

streets of Kings Landing with Ned Stark. Like, of course we're thinking about that. We're thinking about Jamie and his idea of a code and I just want to see who I am and a one-to-one fight with Ned Stark. That's what I want to see. And then you fought well at Trades, which we get echoed at the end. Again, that's like a man with a code. And in the book, he does grudgingly come to, like, respect this slave that he dominates.

But the whole setup is his machination. or also how it's machination, but the idea of like the slave being undrugged is his idea. He's got one poison blade and a non-poison blade and they're switched from the way they're supposed to be. There's all this trickery,

all these plans within plans, all these things that he's putting together in order to create his own myth, right? While he's fighting when the slave like tries to stab him with the unbursed, poison knife that everyone thinks is poison, he's going to be like, I'm going to come out of this and they're going to be like, no one can beat Fade Routha, not even a poison knife. That's very Paul Atreides, no one can beat Maldi. You know, like that, you know, the Madi, like no one can beat

him. No one can beat me. So there's all these like obvious perils. But that Fade Routha, who's so cunning and plans within plans and all that sort of stuff is not who we get here. we get to someone who's much more brutal and reactive, almost. And I'm not mad about it. I just think it's an interesting difference. What do you think? So what you're saying is pinging something actually larger for me that gets back to one of the things we talked about in part one.

Yes. Maybe I do have a note on the movie and it. it's this actually. And I do feel like the, as I said, the performance is like just unbelievable. It's pure camp in the best way. The Harkening oppositional force, the face and feel and stension, treachery of the Harkening foe is always wrapped in that package of, brutality. And I think we're missing a little bit of the cunning strategy. The nuance and the, like, not just nuance for the sake of it, but the kind of nuance that allows us to really think of them as the, to quote you, quoting a famous quote there

but for the grace, kind of dark mirror. Yeah. Like, especially when we think of the share. bloodline and the actual ties, but also the length of this, the feud and the idea in the book of a vendetta, right? Like, I'll quote our gal, the Princess Eriolon again. Why not? This is from the manual of Muadib. To attempt an understanding of Muadib without understanding his mortal enemies, the Harkin's, is to attempt seeing truth without knowing falsehood.

It is the attempt to see the light without knowing darkness. It cannot be. I'm not quite sure that we achieve that. Yeah. Soul deep are strands of DNA in opposition to each other. Holy war inside of these two camps in the film because the Harkinans are so savage in their villainy. The Baron, and this is like the thing we talked about in...

with the first movie, and then I guess we could apply it more broadly here. He is a monster. That's also true, but he is one who seeks to be strategic. Like, whether he succeeds is part of what's interesting. But, like, I've always loved this line from him. The whole universe sat there open to the man who can make the right decisions. Like, the baron is a character who thinks that way, right? Who studies the board and is like, I'm the one who actually knows what the right decision is,

and that's why I am superior. Now, of course, he's not correct, and that's part of his hubris. Like, part of his hubris is that actually Robon is the one in the book who's like, we got to take the Freeman seriously, right? And the parents are like, who? He's like, let me quote from Deathly Hallows and tell you why I can't bother with the tail of the three brothers. Like, he can't be bothered to take the children's book.

It's just to take the Freeman seriously. Get book. But so with Fade, like, I think in the movie, it's a little bit more. we can't rely on Rabin. He's always letting us down. He's always fucking up. He's always making mistakes. He's turned our family into an embarrassment.

Kiss my feet or die. Those are your choices because this is where you brought yourself and this is where you brought our family. In the book, it's a strategic effort to warp and soften the ground for Fade to walk in as savior. Right? Like, they would be bloody pulled. I'll give them, I'll give them remand so that they'll be so excited when Fade is. They can't wait to welcome him.

So, like, we see the adoration on Getty Prime, but this idea that that would be a cultivated thing more broadly is really fascinating. They will be a bloody pulp here when he's through with them. Then when I send in Fade Ralfa to take the load off them, they'll cheer their rescuer, beloved Fade Ralfa. Benign Fade Rafa, the compassionate one who saves them from a beast, Fade Ratha, a man to follow and die for. This is simply not present. No. As a quality in the film. No.

our made Ralph in the movie is eating a red apple like a maniac. Just gonna put that over in your Again, my guy. He blows up the seat. He needs to save the other snacks, Joe, for his darlings. He's like the liver and the spleen. And his darlings are hungry.

There was no food on the flight. This is why you always pack snacks. Yeah, his big move is like blowing up the siege. And I'm like, I don't know. I feel like Robin could have done that. Anyways. I'm not. I'm not mad about it.

It's just, again, if we had more time, I would have loved more a little bit more with Fade. There is this line in the There But for the Grace spirit. There's this line from a character, Count Fengring. Who's that? Tell you in a second. Who says, Count Fingring says, oh, Fade Raltha, after watching this fight and watching him, plays within plans, within plans, poison knives, etc. He says, when you think what this lad could have been with some other upbringing,

with the Atradis code to guide him, for example. There's a classic foil nurture nature moment. Again, it makes me think of Jamie. Okay. Who's Count Fenring? Well, if the last name sounds familiar, Lady Margo Fenring as played by Lays to do in this movie, has a husband.

And guess what? He was in this movie, and he was played by Tim Blake Nelson, and you're like, I didn't see him. Well, that's because he got cut. Brutal. Getting cut out of Doom Part 2 is brutal. Brutal.

Both he and Stephen Henderson McKinley got special thanks in the credits. Thanks for showing up for your days of work. You're not in one of the coolest movies of all time. Sorry. That one really hurts. But yeah, Tim said an interview. Yes, I was playing Count Fenring. And it's so funny when you, I love Tim Blake Nelson.

He's one of my all-time favorites. So I don't want to insult him. But if you read the physical description of Count Fenring, it's perfect casting. Tim Lane Nelson says that he was only in one scene So that means he probably wasn't in Like I don't think they cut around him for the final fight Where Count Frenring has a role to play So I feel like he just either had a scene with Margot

Or with the Baron or with the Emperor Like those are the three prime sub-spects Who we might have had a scene with And I think we just would have gotten a little bit more Pallas Intrigue Because that's what that character is You know, brilliantly there for Instead, all of that falls on Leis Adieu, and guess what?

She is more than capable of carrying this part of the plot. Absolutely impeccable deployment of Leis Adieu. So good. When she shows up the arena fight with her little glasses and just sort of talking to the Ben of Jesuit, all of that, incredible. but the shot where she is like walking down the hallway behind Fade and then in front of Fade Routher. And he's sort of just hypnotically follows her and all of a sudden he's like, wait, where am I?

I don't know where we are. And I was like, me neither, man. I was just watching Lys to slink around in velvet. I could do it all day. The chuckle and the smirk that we exchanged Joe, because we are mature adults when we got the Put your right hand in the box. I mean, again, this is canon, but also, like, then he knows what he's doing with the tension around a moment like that.

But follow-up question. I had this for later in the document, and you were glad that I put it there, but we can bring it up here. Why is there not more fucking in this movie? And should we have seen a scene of fame of the movie? Yes. And Margo. Should we have seen this?

Of course. Yeah. Though, I guess, I mean, obviously my answer to the question is yes. And my answer to a question like that is almost always yes. I think the case for no is that our minds can fill that space in a very fun and satisfying way when we get the Benny Jones or debrief after. And, you know, we understand very quickly, obviously, that there is another heir, another progeny. but also the descriptions, the description of how

not only what unfolded between them and how they will be able to control and manipulate him, this idea of control more broadly is very present in the movie. Like, we didn't talk about this with Paul, but that's a harrowing moment too, and he's like, you know,

the one who has the power of, to the power to destroy the thing is the one who can control it. And the way that the Benny Judgeer talk about how they'll control fate if he's the one who emerges victorious. But then the comedy, even though, again, it's in a very disturbing story about how Faderot the guild, his own mother of her mother being like, here's why I didn't sign up for this one.

It's like, that scene is great. So I guess that's the case against it. But in general, yes, I think we could use more fucking in the movie. We also, of course, are deprived of like the book's initial Stilgar, Jessica, like, you know, we could mate, but like I'd prefer if we had a different sort of relationship. And like it more, let's make it political. And she's like, oh, okay. Incredible stretch.

Just, I just want to recap for people who didn't read the books and may be a little confused about sort of the Benajezer and their plan. The original plan for the quitsack hadarach was 10,000 years. in the making. Okay? Now, we love to plan, but for me, this is too long. I like a fun, but I'll have a long con, but it'll look at a payoff. I mean, God.

10,000 years in the making. They're breeding down the family lines. And the end goal was someone they could fully control. Yes. Who could do what only women are supposed to be doing, which is access the institutional memory of all the women who have come before. So Jessica was supposed to have a daughter And they were supposed to breed

Sorry to use that word That daughter with Fade Ralfa And that child The child of Jessica's daughter And Fade Ratha was supposed to be Like that's Hatter actually And someone that they would have control over I can't wait to recap

Do Prophecy with you It's just going to be every episode So when they had full control over But Jessica's like, oops, Oscar Isaac is hot Lato wanted a son I really wanted a son Have you seen Oscar out? So I gave him a son and oops I trained him

So you can't really control him. I'm so sorry So Jessica, you've 10,000 years of the making Jess No big deal So you know, when Margo says we have him, she's like, I got, I got Faye Ralph on a leash. And whatever this baby is, you know, this could be, you know, to be continued.

Speaking of to be continued, I actually don't have a ton to say about Erlon because as much as I love Florence Pugh and literally anything, as great as she looks, as much as it was a joy for a book reader to hear her dictating, like, her thoughts. That's fun. You know, this is very much Zendaya in part one in that, you know, no major spoilers for dude Messiah. But like, I expect Florence Pugh to have a massive role to play in the third movie. So this is just laying track for what she can do in the future. If this were all we were getting in her, I'd be like, this isn't the best use of Florence Pugh. But if this is just, let's plan a seed and watch it grow, I'm happy to have her. Anything you want to say about Eerlon in this movie?

I'm on the same page. the very deliberate signaling of that promise in the bookend structures of the films where like both of the first both of the movies not literally the last scene but build toward the knife fight jamas and paul the pha and paul and we open with the stage setting from chani in the first film and from irelaan in the second and we know that chani takes on this bigger role in the second after kind of being this table setter for us in the first here the pattern repeats so That felt like a very deliberate way to say, like, much as Johnny took on a larger role in the next movie,

you will be hearing from a person now who will take on a larger role when I complete my trilogy. I'm excited for more from Pew. And one of the things that we enjoyed chatting about on the ride home from the theater was, you mentioned the costuming. I think I will again quote you describing it as his face, like, just covering that increasingly creep to cover more and more and more of her face until she is encased in metal barbs. This is just so funny.

It's just like the encroaching fabric and great scene after scene. Heavy as the head that wears the bugle beads and the dangling metal poitie bits. Absolutely wonderful. That felt like a plan 10,000 years in motion too. On the 10,000 years thing, one of, again, it feels like a very long time. I like to see some payoff a little more rapidly than that. I'm not the most patient person. But a thing I do like about that, the mirroring of, you know,

Iraqis has been like turned into this chessboard full of pawns for this plot long gestating. And the way that that mirrors the patience and the long game of the Fremen quest to change. the face of Aracus. Like I like this idea that there are multiple pursuits that will play off over an eternity in like the moment

where it's like, well, you know, when Paul and Jessica make their way into Stilgar's camp in the book and like Paul

is rendered, astonished by the beauty of the plant life and the glistening light that they find and we build toward this like, you know, we,

well, it's not going to be here for us. It's not going to be here for our children. It's not going to be here for our children's children, on and on and on. All the people, it's not going to be there for, but, like, one day it will be there. And that's enough. Everyone has their version of that in the story, which I think is interesting. When the rubble crashes into that water that they've been painstakingly saving. Basically, Pallatrates is the rubble crashing into the water that the Benajasurate

have been carefully hoarding for 10,000 years. Okay. You're supposed to be the strength beneath the pillar, Ussel. Come on. Tell me if your home world, Ussel. It's not a hero's journey without a ride of passage. We're here to talk about worm riding, sand riding, as it's called. Or a ride of passage is what I'm calling in here, because I love a pun.

Steve, will you play us this clip? Don't try to impress anyone. You're brave. We all know that. Be simple. Be direct. Nothing fancy. Nothing fancy. Hey, I'm serious. Nothing fancy. You will shame my teaching. I won't we shame you. I understand.

Shai Hulu decides to die if you become Freeman. Or if you die. We already referenced this a bit, so I don't need to linger like too long here. This is a very famous chapter, like 42nd chapter of Dune. It's a very famous chapter, The Ride of the Worm. this idea of working with the worms, not just like taming them and you can't tame a rachus. So you have to figure out how to work with a ruckus.

That's the whole idea. In that bit we just heard a lot of those lines are just lifted directly from the book. There's just like a lot of copy paste of Silgar over in, from the book into the movie here. What is so funny,

the experience of reading the book is so funny because chapter 40 is Paul getting ready to ride the sandworm. Chapter 42 is when he rides a sandworm. Chapter 41 is just Jessica chapter, and you're like, are you kidding me? Paul's like, here it comes. Cut to Chapter 41. Jessica's like, I wonder if they'll ever accept my weird spice baby into their

sitch. And you're like, get me the worm. I just love that Frank Herbert did that. He's like, want a cliff hang? Let's pause. Let's check it with Jessica. Frank Herbert was ready for the streaming wars before they arrived. That's clear.

It's like a sweep sweep next week. You've got to save the sandware and ride for that. This is Paul's, I don't know, second major test or like the GOMJibar is a huge test. This is a huge test. But I don't know. Like fighting Jamis is a huge test. There's a lot of tests that Paul goes through. This is whatever else it is, it is a.

very, very important, right of passage for this character. I already mentioned how this just, like, blew my hair all the way back, like, is just an incredible cinematic experience. Took them three months to film this. Oh, my gosh. And Timothy Chalemay has talked about how he was on a rig that they didn't use a green screen. I cannot wait to see all the behind-the-scenes futures of this and figure out exactly how they did this.

But he says he was on a worm rig. Also, I strongly suspect mostly a stuntman, on the worm rig because he is scarfed and goggled up. So I don't know how much to him actually had to go on the rig. I just want to shut out one thing about the I'm going to call them the flaps

when the hooks attached to the ridge and the flap opens. I had someone asked me like what's with the flaps of the sandworm. Which maybe should have been a mailback question, but here we are. This is the quote from the book, as long as the forward edge of the worm's ring segment was held open by a hook,

open to admit abrasive sand into the more sensitive interior, the creature would not retreat beneath the desert. So, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Open flaps and sensitive worms. Oh, yes. Now we truly see how this is the tale that inspired the Sarlac bit. Some language from the chapter of the worm ride, quote, this is Paul thinking about this, right?

Quote, the wild maker. The old man of the desert loomed almost upon him. Come up, you lovely monster up. No, it just sounds absolutely. You bad baby-fied this for me, and I can't. It's hard not to. Come up, you lovely monster up. You hear me calling.

Come up, come up, go up. Okay. In the movie, Paul Wright's the biggest worm they've ever seen, not just any worm. Big one. Long and girthy. Biggest. The ridgy is just That's not how it goes in the book

Stillgar makes fun of him He's like sloppy A 12 year old could have done better blah blah Paul's actually quite pissed About Stilgar's review of his Worm writing I think I'm going to talk about this

A bit more in the Paula Trades episode But I just like the long conversation I had with Van about like the white savior tropes in this movie and whether or not they're there, whether or not it matters what the message of the movie is that the tropes are there.

One of his main points was like, that idea that like an outsider can come in and do the culture better than the culture itself. And I'm like, that's a denny embellishment because that's not what happens here in the book. Paul is like fine at worm riding, not the best they've ever seen at, at riding the worm as it were.

the last what I want to say so Paul is like dying to go south right Shawnee's there it's going to be restful he can't go there unless he learns how to ride the worm like that's his only way south unless he wants to take

a little basket like his mom like Jessica does in the movie and he's like I'm not taking I'm not getting in the Airbnb and going across the desert that way I ought to ride the worm and so when he he figures out how to do it. He's like, now he can go south because, as I said, in the book, he's dying to go there. It's going to be restful. But I like this quote, there was a cork sealing off my world, and that cork has been pulled. This idea of there's a cap on your potential.

You've been with the fremen at that point in the book for years, but he has not learned to do this thing. And so he is hemmed in, and there's a limit to his, and then he emerges from this right of passage, and now the southern desert is his oyster. He can go where he wants. He's liberated. I just think that that's like a really beautiful way to put it. The cork sealing off his world.

Malo Rubin what do you want to say that's fit for air about Politides and the worm? About thrust and sandworms? I thought this scene was extraordinary. This was just unbelievable movie magic. I, as you know, genuinely

I'm like not a, you have to see this on the biggest, free possible person. I respect people who do feel the way about it. I see the merits of it. But this was like kind of a transformative moment moment for me in that respect or it's just like, and I did say to Adam, I was like, we really, when we go, we got to make sure that, like, you're seeing this the way that it's meant to be seen. And he was like, I'll be fine. I'm like, you've got to see it the way it's meant to be seen. Did he even know, the least in Al-Qaeda, I believe. Marty.

Marty. It, uh, I just, I thought this was absolutely gorgeous. Stonan. And dick jokes aside, there is a beauty to, like, thinking about. And this is, this is true of many different rides or rights of passage on Iraq. is like how you are forever changed by this thing that happens to you once you experience it for the first time. Like it calling the great-grandfather worm and riding it as the score surges in is not the

same thing as just breathing the air and inhaling the spice, which anyone can do. But it's all the piece in a sense that like, you know, there's this idea of like how this opens your mind, how this changes your perspective, but also like how you think about the next time. I always love that. There's an exchange. It's actually between UA and Jessica about spice. Can you remember your first taste of spice?

It tasted like cinnamon, but never twice the same. It's like life. It presents a different face each time you take it. And you can imagine that putting your hooks into the sandworm and pulling those flaps would be the same. Like, you pass the trial. Yeah. You are a fremen.

Yeah. you have entered this new stage of your life. Yeah. And it'll never be the same another time, right? Every time we'll be different. I'm glad you read the cork. Cork has been pulled. Love to pull cork.

We've really lost it here. That whole passage, though, is like gorgeous. And I love everything about that. I have had no life before this day. That's what Paul's thinking. I was as a child until this day. Not quite a child, Stilgar said. He fastened a corner of his hood where the wind was whipping it.

But there was a cork sealing off my world. And that cork has been pulled. There is no cork. I would go stout, Stilgar. And I like that he's thinking, I'm going to skip a part that bear may not be something we get into. On the spoiler front, DBD, I need time now to consider the future that is a past within my mind.

The turmoil comes. And if I'm not where I can unravel it, the thing will run wild. So this is this is this like journey to apotheosis in multiple respects, right? It is this welcoming into this new community and tradition, like this leveling up as a member of this Fremen tribe. But also for Paul, it's like it's an awakening. It's a right. It's a necessity. Like it's a, it's a step on that journey that he can.

can't stop perseverating over and thinking about how to unwind. I love when you say perseverating. The storytelling that happens in the scene in the movie with Chani being so nervous for him, so frightened for him that she can't even joke with her friend about it. She's like, don't make jokes. I'm stressed. I'm scared. I love him.

He's about to do this very scary thing. The fact that she's saying. She's like. She's like. She's like lower, you know. You know he's heard that from her before. Lower. That, me, me.

But then how at the end, everyone is celebrating and everyone is worshipping and then she gets nervous. Yes. She's scared. I mean, again, just very efficient, wonderful storytelling. And I think the way that we're about to talk to, we're getting close to Chandi section. but, you know, Zendaya throughout this is just playing all the notes. Really, really good stuff. All right.

Let's, before we get to Chani, let's get to Alia Atreides, as played by a blue-wash fetus or also Anya Taylor Joy. Just some book context on the timeline. If we believe that pregnancies last roughly nine months, they're human. They should. This is our future. These are humans. So Paul's only in the desert. His mom still has not given birth.

So that's how long Paul is in the desert with the Fremen, which is not that long. Yeah. You know? Some months. In the book, he's in the desert for years with them. And Jessica gives birth to Aaliyah. And if you've seen the David Lynch movie, you'll know that Aaliyah shows up at the end in this final confrontation with the emperor and the baron, et cetera. as this small child talking like a grown-ass adult.

And it is in the book is uncanny. Yeah. In the Lynch movie, it's laughable. Which is not Alicia Witts. Fall Alicia Witts playing a child. I love her in general. But it's not great, I would say. And he hasn't said this interview, but I would guess he even want to deal with.

like, I just don't even want to deal with that. So let's just shorten the timeline. And we'll just keep Alia tucked away for the future. We shall say that in the book, Paul and Chani have a child, Lido the 2nd, who then dies before the book is over. So I don't think that's a spoiler to say because, like, it has no real bearing on what is going to happen in the third movie. I just don't think it is.

well I have questions about it but like I think they're just like we're not going to do this child but Paul and Chani have a child he's been there for so long you start his family all this sort of stuff what did Anya Taylor Joy work for you

did the chatty fetus work for you like how did you feel about all of this I think this is a smart decision and a good way to do this and definitely better than returning to the lynch path of very, very, very, very precocious super baby. I like, you know, I think also this feels like a sustainable approach because, I mean, who knows, like you said, what the time jump will be between part two and Dune Messiah. but the way that we get to see the Anya Taylor Joy version of Aaliyah,

I think just opens up the ability that that could be how she interacts with Paul, like through visions and snippets. Interesting. We don't have to like necessarily fast forward too far in time. 20 years in the future? So that's exciting. I can't imagine that she's here. Planning for 10,000 years.

I mean, I feel like you don't cast her. or just for seven seconds of dialogue, but maybe you do it? I would guess if I were Denise, I would want to have Anya Taylor Joy in my third movie. Yeah. But can I convincingly make Timothy Chalemay look like, like 20 years of past?

It's not something I would want to try to do. Another, well, whatever, maybe we're in Dumaeusite territory. But like, since she's a super baby washed in blue goo, maybe she just grows faster. That was going to be my other theory. It's just like, why not really accelerate that aging? You know? Water life.

Try it. Gurney with the nukes in the Grand Palace of the Arkin. I just, you know, I just want to make sure we talk about Gurney Alec at all. Still suit. It's full of piss. This is like unbelievable. One of my great laments about the first, about part one is that, that the urine and feces are processed in the thigh pads line does not make the cut.

And I just, I feel an actual genuine search of gratitude that Gurney is here to remind everybody that people are shitting and pissing and there's still suits all the time. Constantly. We're recycling and all folks. Zimmer and Brolin wrote this, that song together. And I had this in the music section, but I just need to like express my, uh, extreme indignation here and now, which is apparently they wrote several more for part one that didn't make the final movie, release the ballad cut? Are you kidding me? Give us a song, Gurney.

Give us a song, Gurney. Okay. And every song starts with mood. What's mood to do with it? That's Gurney. So Gurney shows up, not too dissimilar from the book, but again, this is just like another externalization of the various pulls on Paul's motivation in his psyche. So again, Paul gets to play the somewhat virtuous, like, hushing, like, why would I exploit them? Why would I do that Gurney? Like, all the sort of stuff like that. Whereas, like, these kind of conversations

are usually happening inside Paul's head when he's at war with himself. But we're externalizing in the shape of Gurney. He was like, you got them eating out of your hand. I know where your daddy's secret nuke stash is. Let's go. All right. I also got a kick out of that.

Stilgar, journey. Like, this is a dumb plan. This was a smart plan exchange about the Atomics. It's like, well, you didn't find them. That was great. I enjoyed that. Like, who should be the most trusted advisor to Paul? Did you see, you saw Josh Berlin's Instagram post, right? About Dune 2? This is something that Josh Burlin captioned an Instagram post with. Okay. Dune 2 releases them less than two weeks.

Two weeks is capitalized with three-ex mission marks. Robot lady and Wonka fall in love. Then Elvis tries to fuck it all up while his bad dad floats in a pool of pawns gum. Not his dad, but that's okay. The WWE dude from Guardians gets super pissed while Mid-Somar Hottie puts the eyes on Wonka, Obi-Wan, just after his mom gets caught taking LSD in a sense. Sandy bathroom. Shigur still doesn't like the guy from Goonies. I mean, who doesn't want to see all that on IMAX? The pandemic as we knew it is over, strikes have come and gone. Fuck it. It's time to

commute again and experience that amazing feeling when the lights go down. You have your hand deep in your popcorn worm and Dune 2 consumes you. Have fun. J.B. I mean, it's a little long for the poster, but... I only have one note. It's not even him. calling the Baron a bad dad because it's okay. I'd pick something else for Flores Pugh than Midsomar or Hottie, but other than that, no notes. And the fact that he, like, lights up this, like, underlines the No Country for Old Men reunion between Javier Bar-Dem and here.

Shigur still doesn't like the guy from the Goonies. Very good stuff from Josh Bowlin. Thank you. Sir. That brings us to Shani. Took you long enough, says the oldest and day of fans. Johnny might be the point of view character

in this movie, but not in this pod. It's by two women. Two hours to get to her. That's okay. Oh, Steve Lee played this. She, we've been talking about Johnny throughout. Maybe. Love Johnny.

A lot deep, Usel. Maybe you could be from him. Maybe I'll show you the way. Did it leave in that extra bit of score with no dialogue over it? because I'm obsessed with the Paul and Chani love theme? Yes, I did.

Again, I had this down on the music section, but why not say it here? That love theme is called A Time of Quiet Between the Storms. And Hans Zimmer says he considers it the main theme of Dune Part 2. This is like Han and Leah love theme stuff for me. Like that is where that score, that motif is sitting for me. And the fact that Hans Zimmer considers it the main theme of Dune 2 tells you that this idea of a love story between Chani and Paul is not just like because it's in the book or because you need a romance or let's like put two of the hottest like most popular actors in the world and have them like kiss and kind of sweatily lay on top of each other but not actually fuck like all that sort of stuff. You get the post Coitle, but you don't get the coin out

It's like an unlatching. Yeah. I don't want it. You know what I'm talking about. I do. Like repositioning of the hips. I do. I know exactly what you're talking about.

The House of Mar contains adult content. Anyway. This, okay. So of all the character changes, this is the most dramatic. Which is that Chani, so Denise said when he was getting a lot of flack at the first movie of hashtag wear a sendea, why did you shoot her like she's in a perfume commercial? He's like, she's the POV character of the second movie, I promise. And certainly I would say she's the second lead of the film.

I still kind of think it's Paul's movie. But she's on the poster, just her and Paul, all this sort of stuff like that. She's in a ton of the movie. There's no other actor who's in as much of the movie as she is other than. Timothy Shalame. So, like, she's here. The Chani in the book is a fighter, is a strategist. She has this great line when she's killed

someone who's trying to kill Paul, and Paul's like, you shouldn't have done that. And she's like, I'm no longer child hunting scorpions in the sitch by the light of a hand globe, Usil. I do not play games. Like, she's like, she's lethal. But she's also just, like, unfailingly has the hats for Paul and is loyal and, like,

his very pliant, you know, lava throughout the whole thing. So to turn her into the face of skepticism and opposition is a huge move. But again, to go back to that EW quote you had from De Nia, I hadn't read that interview, but I saw him give a different interview, like a video of it, where he was talking about that misunderstanding. And then, as he said in that EW quote, so Chani becomes the reminder for the audience is, hey, maybe this isn't such a good idea.

Maybe if I end the movie on her like angry face, we will understand that something deep has been betrayed here. And what it also means is that when Paul gives up what he gives up, it's so personal for him, what he decides to let go of here. is his love. Even though he says to Jessica, like, she'll come around. I don't know.

I'm lost in the dark here, like Paula, sometimes in the book, because I don't quite understand how this is all going to feed in to Duma. I'm curious to find out. But it's such a dramatic change for this character. It's funny when I was talking to Van again about this Whitesaver question, like his interpretation coming out of the movie, watching for the first time, was that Chani was mad at the end of the movie

because she got dumped in, yeah, for Aeron. And I was like, she's angry at Paul long before that. And they basically don't have a substantive conversation after Jessica manipulates her into resurrecting Paul. So her anger here is representative of the larger Fremen resistance to Paul's leadership. which is both a brilliant choice, I think, but also then just sort of like, the fact that she's the only one at the end, I don't know, puts a lot on a character

that like all of the Fremen are down and Chani's the only one who's not, you know, singing his praises. I think she should have had like a little, like a little band of resistors with her. And I think that would have been, But I also want to shout out that they gave her a friend, and that's something that a lot of female characters don't often have,

like a love interest doesn't usually have her own friend. So Shachli, who is a male character in the book, kind of completely different. They just kind of lifted a name. But I love her. She was great throughout. I misspoke when I said Javier Bardem had to carry all the humor because she carries a lot as well.

She's wonderful. Got some real zingers. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love this adaptive choice. I think this is brilliant. You, without telling me what was different,

hinted to me that a major change awaited. I don't think I would have guessed that this was it, but once I saw the movie, I was like, what else could it have been, sort of based on how we'd been primed for, like, what Villeneuve's mission is? I was thinking even back to like our mailbag from a few weeks ago, not our All-Dune mailbag, which will be coming to you at the end of this week.

Send us your questions at Habits and Dragons at gmail.com. Tell me of your future pod, isn't. But when we were talking about what we were looking forward to most from the movie and, like, we're a little unsure at that time if we felt like spoiler-y to talk about this focus on, are we sure chosen ones are good and how like it felt safe and okay and permissible because the trailers were so firmly oriented around engaging with. with that idea. So now even like rewatching the trailers,

I'm catching these bits of side eye and the concerned expressions and the trepidation and seeing Chani, even in the marketing leading up to the film in that way a little bit more. Rewatching part one and those opening lines. It's like very striking to hear after seeing part two,

who will our next oppressors be? And to have that in your mind as you're watching this story unfold. And, you know, I think like part of the genius of the story is that again, all the characters are always thinking about the perils and the pitfalls that potentially await.

Like, even Leto, before he's killed, says to Paul in the book, that honorable banner could come to me in many evil things. Of course, this banner is then at the century. of so many of Paul's visions

in exactly that way. Shawnee never really wavers from concerns like that. Who will come in from the outside? Who will seek to take this place away from us? Who will seek to use it? Even like after they are deeply in love with each other, we've been treated to these.

You picked a great clip. The score is stunning. Watching them move without recognizable, rhythm. The idea of course, this is like, in the moonlight, this sand dance that they're doing with each other. There's no room for Anakin saying, I don't like sand deer. This is just gorgeous. And the fact that like, Timothy Shalmay and Zendaya are both trained dancers. So just like the way that their like feet are like arching and sliding. It's just like, beautiful. Balletic kind of shared life quality to it. It was, it was beautiful. And it's like a fun thing

to think about how they're seeking to, nominally seeking to like avoid the idea of. rhythm, right? But there's the rhythm is there in present in abundance because they just have it with each other. Like they have this chemistry and this rapport and this, this draw to each other. And of course, for Paul, it's like, she's the face that he's been seeing, that he's been envisioning and knows that he will meet. And to her, she's like, the guy that she said, I wouldn't have let you are my friends. I had the jump on you the whole time and you didn't even know it. And to like think about their different origin points. and where they then move, like, toward each other and how.

Here we're equal. What we do, we do for the benefit of all. I'd very much like to be equal to you. Like another example of what we were talking about earlier, in that moment, it's very easy to get swept up, but you kind of can't forget even inside of the romanticism of that exchange and the real tenderness and sweetness that Paul is exhibiting there,

that this is the figure of prophecy to all these other people around them. And so like the line, I think, that that feels like the movie turns on is, he's like, you know, you'll, I thought I was from it. Like, you'll never really trust me. All of these doubts, right. What can I do to make sure it's enough? What does she ultimately say to him? You will never lose me as long as you stay who you are.

And it's just such a harbinger, right? It's this, like, ominous note of doom because how can the doomed messiah figure stay who he is. That's not the course that he's on or can be on. And I think like the tragic aspect of Chani, a character who throughout the story

is like, I don't believe in this. This isn't for me being forced into that desert spring tears. Your role in the prophecy? Film invention that's not in the book at all.

The Desert Spring Tears is not in the book. But like, yeah, and then like Jessica, like, forcing her, how violating that moment is. Absolutely. And so then it's like the kind of thing where, again, presumably by that point, everybody is very cautious and wary. The watching the character who is responsible for voicing so much of this trepidation be deployed in that way is like a hideous thing. So how could it fail to make you even more cautious than as a viewer? when everything unfolds subsequent to that.

Chani watching, I mean, the look of like horror on her face as she sees Paul make these grand sweeping speeches to everybody around. Like, you thought it could be you. Like, I'm the one your mother told you about. And shouting as everybody is telling her to leave to be quiet and then Gurney is trying to pull her down to just save her at that point.

This prophecy is how they enslave us. Like, she is the voice of the exact thing that she feared. Yeah. And she's right. Which is just so sad. It's horrifying. It's horrifying. And I think that there's so many moments.

Like, the word choice in that clip we just played, maybe I'll show you the way. when we played the earlier clip of Lido and Paul talking about finding his way. And this idea of like this thing that Paul almost has, which is a life with, you know, this woman that he has fallen in love with and would start a family with. The moment, this really got me like right in the gut the second time I watched the movie. When Gurney is just like fumbling with his tent and she's like, are you serious with this guy? And Paul just goes, he's family. He's family.

And she just stands up and helps him. She's like, oh, if he's your family, he's my family. So I guess I got to help him. You know, it's just like, and then or her telling her friend, he's not like the others. He's sincere. Like, it's just heartbreaking. Wonderful stuff from Zendaya. Her emotional heartbreak, her anger.

just amazing. I just love her. It was an absolutely incredible performance. Like the despair of watching the person who told you that they didn't want this, that this was the thing they feared, to see that unfold in front of you in real time. Like, for her to watch Paul shout,

I point the way. It has to feel not only like a betrayal of a thing that he told her wouldn't happen, but the devastation of knowing that it was the outcome he also feared. Like the reason he didn't want to go south in the film world again, the thing that he was terribly afraid would unfold

is happening. He is unfolding in real time around them and that it is being met with adulation. Yeah. And then to build toward, this was a memory that we will all share forever. Oh, yes. I was about to mention, I'm glad you are mentioning it.

I want you to know, I will love you as long as I breathe. Heartbreaking. We'd heard this in every trailer of waiting for it all movie right before he goes to make the marriage play for Irland's hand for the Emperor's Throne. The response for man in real time in the theater sent all of us into a fit of absolute hysterics. This is incredible. This is why you go in the movie theater, I guess. Yeah, I guess I suppose. Great stuff. I love how you were just describing that.

All I could think of was Padmae going, keep breaking my heart. Don't go where I can't follow. Yeah, this was, I'd say, a more successful version of that. Oh, yeah, just a bit better. As you know, I ride unapologetically for a movie I love. I love, I think this moment in cinema-going history where Van goes, God damn was been teased on the big picture and on Midnight Boys. This is the third time you're hearing, and I'm just saying it was that good.

Sensation. This is an adoptive choice again. In the book, Paul's like, yeah, I'll marry Aeron, but I love you. You're my concubine. You are it for me. And Chani's like, okay, great. And Jessica, this is how the book ends. Jessica's like, it ends with Jessica saying.

And Jessica and Chana get along swimmingly in the book. And she's like, don't worry. He's not going to fuck her. Who cares about her? We're concubines. We're the mother of like their children. History will remember us as queens. Because Jessica is a concubine.

And so Chani is going to, you know, this is the love match. Chani is going to be his love forever. And he will politically marry. The difference in the dune world of what a mistress means versus not is that the dune world a concubine can give birth to an heir. So you don't ever have to fuck your wife if you don't want to. If you're in love with your concubine.

So Chani gets a happy ending, if you will, with Paul. On that evocative language note, I just want to read this quote from Frank Herbert on the rhythms of the book. Yes, please. This is an interview he gave in 1960s, 69, I think. Nice. He says, it's a coital rhythm, very slow pace, increasing all the way through.

And when you get to the ending, I chopped it at a non-breaking point so that the person reading skids out of the story, trailing bits of it with him. Or her. It's like he's like, I'm building and building. Do you think that Herber was thinking about the female orgasm there? That interview he gave, actually, I read it as fascinating. He gave with his wife. So his wife was sitting right there. So I hope that he was.

Yeah, that he's like, Dune is an orgasm denied. That we're going to like build and build and build. There's going to be a knife fight. And then it's just going to be like Chani and Jessica talking about concupines. You're like, ah, is that it? Are we not? But in terms of rhythm, something that I noticed in this episode two of season four, of true detective.

Don't you dare! Not yet! Easily Mallory's favorite TV moment of the year so far. Tell me. Don't you dare. There's something about the way that Timothy Chalemay speaks

as Paul, which is very rhythmic. He goes up and down in his tones in a way that he doesn't when he's playing other characters. And so maybe it's that attempt to capture that coital rhythm or I don't know, or the lyricism

of Frank Herbert's language, but let's just all think about the coital rhythm when we are riding sandworms, reading Dune and watching the movie. There's like a hypnotic quality to the way that he

whispers so many of his lines as well, and then of course when you build toward, alas, if not the satisfying orgasm, you were seeking at least a moment like, silence! Where you're just like, shocked. Or when he stamps his foot, like,

like a little toddler when the emperor will kiss. That was a delicious moment. So good. Superb. Let's just briefly before we leave the deep dive, talk about the final knife fight. Steve Lee play this clip. May thy knife chip and shatter. May thy knife chip and shatter.

Are you like, what is still in the scars? What's what you're doing here? It's punishing. Oh, okay, Paul and then Ralph a face off at the end. This is essentially, you know, if it were Star Wars, would be a lightsaber duel. Against your point that you made earlier about these moments that Paul has where you can't see the future, this is a really key one in the book, right? He says, this is the climax Paul thought. Frank Krober was like, no.

But anyway, this is the climax, Paul thought. From here, the future will open the clouds part into a kind of glory. And if I die here, they'll say I sacrifice myself that my spirit might lead them. And if I live, they'll say nothing can oppose Mao. Deep. So incredible stuff. We're so inside Paul's head during this knife fight. I think I found myself, I had just reread that passage before I saw it the first time.

And so I found myself grappling for maybe just like a little bit more meaning in this fight as I teased earlier. Like I just would really like to know why we need. think, if we consider these two physically matched in their training, in their, in their upbringing, and they're grooming, all this sort of stuff like that, then why was Paul able to succeed and Fade Ratha wasn't? There's a couple things that we can sort of put together to create a picture. There's, of course, the, like, threatening of Chani, which does happen in the book. And, you know, so that's like a, that's a moment for Paul. Um, there's the moment earlier in the film after he has, uh, sipped on the water of life

where he does his best Dr. Strange impression talking to Jessica. And he's like, there's one narrow way through when he gets this flash. And the flashes of the knife and the ribs of Fade Routha, right? So he considers this fight, right? Gurney's like, why are you doing this fight? Why would you do it? And he's like, I have to do it. or else we don't win.

So I have to do this. And so he knows he has, so he's seen himself win. So he knows he has to win. And then there's the callback to the training with Gurney in part one where he takes a knife. I mean, this is sort of the best grasp at explanation I have. He takes the knife and his side. So that Fade Ralfa overplays his hand. and he then uses that knife, I believe, right, to stab him in the ribs.

So it's actually not his knife. It's the emperor's knife, right, that he stabs him in the ribs with. And much like we would satisfactorily see in Aria and Game of Thrones, necessarily we see his various teachers here. We see Duncan Idaho is here and May that knife tip and cheddar. Jamis is here. By the way, I really loved the use of ghost Jemis in the film. Gurney's here, all this, all the teaching is led to.

to this moment of Paul victorious. But I think there's just like a whisper of something I'm missing on like a character front that makes the victory all the more satisfying when like Luke and Vader fight, you know, like all these various fights that we get in lightsaber battles. When someone wins, there's usually an emotional reason why. And this almost seems like technique reasons why versus not. What do you think in my off base? No, I think like

It feels a little bit Again, with the way the films are split There's like the knife fight The one-on-one single combat That you build toward in each So that's a satisfying parallel But this is coming on the heels Of some of the grandest spectacle

In the in the story And so I think, you know, we're seeing like the atomic's use to blow the hole in for the sandworm charge. And Paul looking out over the adoring legions with his war cry and the flames engulfing the emperor's ship and the intimacy of a moment like Paul stabbing the baron in the neck as he whispers grandfather and saying that he'll die like an animal and to give him to the. desert and the shot of the wildlife crawling its way into his brain. Like, there's a lot happening in this stretch. And so it's like tough to measure up. And it feels like because it's the thing you're building toward it has to exceed, not just measure up.

So you're comparing it to the fight. And the first one, you're comparing it to the other things that are around it in this film. Maybe if, like you said, we'd gotten a little bit more time with Fader Ratha, that would have been part of it. I think that for the book readers, there's a little more

you can just bring to it because like when he's fighting Jamas, he's thinking like about all of those lessons that you're mentioning from Gurney or Duncan and the, is it,

what does it mean to kill with the tip versus the edge, etc? Like, keep the mind on the knife and not on the hand that holds it. This is something he's thinking about from Gurney when he's fighting Jammis that then prepares him

for what we're seeing. here. So you could bring all of this different context to it if you've read it. But inside of just the film, I think your point is fair. I like the idea of like the hubris of the Harkinanin offensive being the thing ultimately that undoes it. Like the fact that Fade is a character who not only is certain he's superior, but that he cannot be bested even by an undrugged the foe, say, or by the Messiah, like the fact that he is

willing to move into that snare, I think works for him. And then from Paul's perspective, the fact that in this moment of ascension, he has to make himself vulnerable, like he has to bleed. He has to put himself in the position. For me, connected more to a lot of what we saw in the first film, actually, than in this film. so many of the visions and snippets leading up to the Jammis fight, which of course then spark a lot of this interesting question, questioning of like, what can you trust that you see,

what actually is misleading you and doesn't unfold in that exact fashion, which makes the like, I will say which makes the, I saw this so this is the one path certainty, like a little muddled. Muddled because so much of it is like it actually didn't happen exactly this way. But, you know, It's a long time now that we've spent in the Denisville Noon duve duen verse of like Paul thinking about bloody knives and lethal jabs and what might lead to his death and what risk is he willing to take for the people he has sworn to defend and protect who he is now ending the film saying like paradise but really holy war.

Take him to paradise. To clarify. as I'm questing for a satisfactory interpretation of this fight, visually incredible. The score cuts out, the score that is almost oppressive, often in Dune,

cuts out the backdrop of the setting sun, like, you know, these two physically matched, you know, young men, these foils. There's a lot, to be satisfied by in this fight, it's like a 9.8 out of 10 and I am grasping for the point two to bring me to paradise. So, you know, maybe this is how Deney plans to leave me thus unsatisfied.

He's like, you're looking right on the edge. Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to say about the night fight? I liked because of who was present in the room getting to see the responses on every face and what every person is rooting for or fearing and like this is a moment where the Chani

is so utterly dismayed by what has happened to the person that she loved but you can still see the terror on her face that something would happen to him which is like, yeah, just a perfect little moment. All right, we want to do a few little odds and ends We've already touched a lot on the score, but I just thought we should listen to some worm riding with enough dialogue in the background that I don't think legal is going to get mad at me. Play that clip, Steve.

This fucks. This rips. This rules. It's the best. So good. Unbelievable. Just want to mention a couple things that Hans Zimmer has said, largely in this variety interview he gave, where he talked about the, the, The bit of the Doom Part 1 score that we love to make fun of the, like that whole part, he is talking about how the female vocals on there that we hear throughout and we hear it in Paul and Chani's love theme is important because of that sort of matriarchal thread that runs through Dune as a story. He says, we felt it was really important to constantly celebrate that, even as the mother leaves the room, the sound of a female voice still lingers.

So you're constantly reminded where the power. lies. The way they use that voice in the Paul and Chani love theme is to have it like sort of murmuring really low. So you almost have to like lean in to hear it, which is sort of like echoing this gesture of these two people sort of leaning towards each other in their love story. And then the other like grimy, grungy, gunky sound of the Harkinen Arena track, which again is like is Fade's motif is just extraordinary stuff. Hans Zimmer and his team. Absolutely sensational.

The score, amazing. The sound design overall, amazing. I missed that. I missed the Barron's spine harness activation sound like that. How is that? I tried to do it for you and I couldn't.

It's like, oh my God, you've been working on it. This is so much better than the version you did for me in the car. So terrible. That was really good. That was like creepy ASMR. Harkin and ASMR. I loved it. Okay.

It's just great. The movie is sensory delight in every respect, truly. Visuals set design. Stornan. We love the sort of incredible palace that we get in the first one. And I was like, oh, no, I'm going to miss those. We're murals. And then we go inside the stitches and they're just like,

The engraving of the walls and how it feels like an absolutely real place is just incredible. The huge gates of the Southern Temple. The Water of Life pit thing sequence. Like, that's incredible design. Everything just, like, looks amazing where you talked about Gettie Prime. And then the costumes where he talked about the increasingly elaborate headdresses for both Jessica and Aeron. I hope that Rebecca Ferguson and Florence Peele, like, bonded over their neck aches at the end. of any given day.

Any other story elements of Dune Part 2 that we haven't done on yet that we want to cover? No, we're going to do a mailback episode. We're going to do a Paula Trini's episode. So we've really done it. We have. What a movie. What a movie, Joanna. That was everything we had to say right now until later about Doom Part 2.

We do want to talk just a little bit about Dune Messiah. Quick one. Quick one about Duma Sia. In case you're wondering, that's your spoiler warning. Bye. Go away. Peace out. All right, what do you want to say about Dumaeah that we haven't already?

And if you're hearing you haven't read the book, essentially 12 years later, Paul has been oppressive, taking them to paradise kind of emperor. Paul himself compares himself to Hitler and Gagascan in that book. And we open with a massive plot conspiracy is the word I was looking for. Conspiracy to kill Paul LaTradie. Same thing. Go ahead. What do you want to say, Mallory? Well, so you post this as an initial, hey, let's, this is an interesting thing to chew on prompt for us as we were leaving the theater.

but how exactly do you adapt to a man, Messiah if Johnny is an oppositional force instead of the doting, loving concubine who's going to give birth to Paul's twins? That's the question. I came up with a brief idea. All right. So, like, Irlon is right at the heart of the center

of the smack of the dab of the conspiracy because she is pissed because Paul will not fuck her and she cannot have his heirs because he will not touch her. He loves Chani. Yeah. She is smuggling contraceptives into Chani's food so that Chani can't have a baby. Irrillon, real piece of work.

What if Paul still doesn't want to, like, fuck her? But, like, it's even more tragic than that. It's like, you are not touching me and the person that you love, like, hates you and is often, like, the sand dune somewhere. There is a friend and opposition to Paul in Duneasai, so if Chani's leading that. But what it will require is some sort of. hate fulg assignation if she is going to give birth to the twins, right? Right. She's not, I don't think she's currently, unless she's currently pregnant, which.

So that's what I was going to ask you is, do you think she is already pregnant? And then obviously we're just, we're eliminating any sort of like time jump then. Oh, well, my thought is that because Denia is not doing this next, I feel like he's going to do at least a little bit of a time jump. Do you know? But if she's pregnant now. Well, okay, what Mallory is alluding to is that Chani dies in childbirth, giving birth to the twins. Yeah. And also just like, you know, a decade plus past.

Maybe she won't. Maybe she won't. But even just the fact that like a decade passes before the events, 12 years, before the events of that story. And then the plots and schemes evolve leading toward the doomed childbirth. So if she's pregnant already, then we're going to have babies in the story. Sondaya getting dying in childbirth is not something I don't see it happening. Looking forward to the discourse around. So I think.

I don't, I feel like we'll get a switch there. I feel like that's not going to happen. But I still think she needs to be the mother of the children. But like I don't think she dies. I feel like she dies in battle or, you know, she and Paul wander off in the desert together or whatever it is. Because Paul is going to give up. up his throne and go off in the desert. He's like, I had a vision of you getting

your face melted off by a nuke. It was, I'm the wild blind. You never can't trust a vision. The wildest twist that we have yet to talk about a Dune Messiah is the fact that perhaps mayhap, and will they do it and try to hide it? Who knows? Jason Momoa will be back

because there is this, it's so hard to explain, but the somewhat like resurrected younger version of Duncan, Idaho who shows up to, like, flirt with Alia and tempt Paul and all this sort of stuff like that. Like, he cannot resist because he's like, ah, you look like this very important person to me who died, Duncan Idaho. My question about that, and I'm excited for that. Can't wait.

I feel like there's no way you don't use Jason Momoa if you have Jason Mahalo. Yeah. I wonder if they'll just cut the sort of like Alia Duncan Idaho thing. Because like, but I guess that age gap isn't like that bad. I don't know. She's a teen in the book. So, Adi Taylor Joya is older than that. She's also like spooky spice gude, so maybe it won't matter.

But anyway, yeah. Certainly in our version of the dedication where no time has passed, I'll be skipping that. I don't know. I'm just like lots in the wilderness trying to figure out what due Messiah is going to look like. But there's a lot of stuff on the table here. for them to pick from. I can't wait for Duncan to be back. Do you think they'll try to hide it?

Twisted version. Do you think he'll have a Kit Harrington lifestyle as he shoots this film and have to be like smuggled it under blankets? It could be that just a complete attempt to hide it or given that this is like known. It's out there, right? Obviously everybody was pretty sure John was coming back. But famously, there was no. no book yet that made that abundantly.

I love that he said there was no book yet. And also there still is not. We believe, George, we believe. I could see just like, oh yeah, we're filming a vision with him. Sure. You know? Or just, I don't know.

Watch, read a book. Paul has imbibed the water of life. So he can see across time. And anyone is in the mix, including anyone in the movie. you've got like a pretty good cover. That's fair. Bring us,

fuck, bring an Oscar Isaac back, you know? Let's do it. Yeah. Why just use a painting and a skull to worship in front of? I do love a conspiracy.

Okay. Oh, I don't mean like, you hate a crevice, you love a conspiracy. Well, I just mean it is a plot. I love a conspiracy assassination plot,

especially when you're trying to brew one around someone who can see the future. And that's a whole element of doom messiah. That's really fun. They're like, how do we block this from Paul seeing that we're a scheming and a plotting? I can't wait for this. I want to need to take the time he needs to work on his other projects and feel like he is returning to this of a moment that is right.

But also, I hope we get this immediately. As soon as humanly possible. I just like, I don't want to wait. Also, we talked about the popcorn. buckets in the trailers and that aspect of marketing. We've mentioned the very famous people who are in this movie. Let me just say that the way that they marketed do in Part 2 was just fully leaning into the fact that some of the most famous people alive are in this cast. No, no.

Exceptional. Exceptional stuff. Who are we adding? You don't even have to cast them. But like actors you would add to the press store because Austin is not going to be available. Oh. Paul Meskel, what are you doing? Are you done with Gladiator and can you do this?

Are you done with ringerverse property Gladiator too? Can you join the guest of Dune Besiah? Will it be called Dune Part 3 or Dune Messiah? I feel like he's going to call it Part 3, but I wish it were called Dune Messiah. But he has to call it Part 3, right? I guess he doesn't have to because it's Dune, part 1 and part 2, of Dune, the book, and then Dune Messiah. Yeah.

I hope it's called Dune Messiah. That would be great. Asterisk. Guys, this is, he's, this is bad. Messiah is bad. Okay. That's been it for our first installment of three talking about Dune. Send your mailbox questions.

I can't wait. To do more. To Havasendragons and Gmail.com. We will be doing that mailbag. I believe we're recording on Thursday. So you have until Thursday to send us your question. Roberts and Dragons. Preferably Wednesday night, by the way.

Hobbes and Dragons.com. Good afternoon. Live show in Austin, Texas, South by Southwest on Monday, March 11th. Paul O'Dradi's Hall of Fame episode coming up. Thanks, as always. To our Juna Ramquipal. who's the best, literally the best to him and alive, and I love him. To Joe me a dinner on on the social and also for a great time that I had seeing him at the

student screening. So nice to see all of you. It's really joyous. Wonderful. And to Steve Allman, who I got to sit next to at the student screening and who did great, great, great job making us sound so nice on this podcast. Mallory. May your mic chip and shatter. I'll see you again.

You potted well, Atreides. I'll see you later this week. Bye!