House of R - 'Dune: Prophecy' Episode 1 Deep-ish Dive | House of R

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Fear remains the mind-killer, Jo and Mal are here to lead you through the desert once again as they dive semi-deep into the first episode of 'Dune: Prophecy.' Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal, Aleya Zenieris Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. Human beings rely on lies to survive. We lie to our enemies. We lie to our friends. We lie to ourselves. Lying is among the most sophisticated task a brain can perform. Welcome back to House of R, and I don't know about you,

but I personally believe that podcasting is among the most sophisticated task a brain can perform. I'm Joyner Robinson. We'll see if my brain is up to the task today. Joining me, how's your brain doing? It's Mallory Rubin. Joe, have we discussed the untapped value of whale seed? It's medicinal benefits? Love to know that House Harkonan is in the whale seed business.

Genuinely, a delight. and I hope it's a strong plot point for the rest of this season. We're here today. Talk to you about Dune Prophase. The first episode has dropped on HBO and Max and other places. It is a six-episode season and our current plan, our current plan, plans changed, but our current plan is we'll be here week to week covering that show with you. Yes.

Usually, we are known for doing a deep dive. call this a deep dive today? Not really. Here's the deal. With Doom prophecy, it is a very as, as you who are eagerly awaiting the Paul of Fame episode. No. Dunn is a mythologically dense. A mythologically dense property. So today on the pod, we're doing some like table setting, some like world building check in, some cast of characters check in. We didn't have time to do a primer. So this is sort of like a primer first episode check-in combo. And then we will probably be doing more traditional deep dives in the weeks going forward. Who are we spending our time with this season? What are they wearing out to the club? Who are they fucking? What are they huffing? You know,

there's a lot of questions. I know. Same. Before we get into all of those questions, comments, concerns, facts and figures, we have some programming reminders for you. And this is a very important one. I am here to tell you that we are mere days away from it being bang on thighs o'clock here at the house of our. Dyes a clock, baby. It is Gladiator 2 week, which means you will get our gladiator to deep dive, whatever that looks like on Friday. I can't wait to find out.

We've already had a request to talk about normal people. And Mal and I are like, sure. They're in a dream. Happy to do so. where I first met Paul Meskel's thighs. Same. It is rugby shorts. Sure.

Happy to do. Same. And then also listen, the men I boys, Poo Poo! Also have their gladiator to instant reactions plus a leading men draft. I'm very excited to check in on that one. Great idea. The Mint Edition crew is continuing their coverage of Arcane season two.

I know that the like Arcane, lore is dense and chewy and people are really going to want to check in and all of that. We'll be back next week, of course, with Dune Prophecy Episode 2. Yes. As well as, in theory, a winter. Yeah. Hype meter. That's right.

A seasonal tradition. A treat. You might be thinking. What's hype? Exactly. What do we mean by winter? What's this next week's Thanksgiving? Yeah, it is.

And it feels like the perfect time to look ahead to crave it in the hunter, doesn't it? It does. I'm excited. Okay, so that's a little holiday Thanksgiving treat for you. We'll also have our ringerverse November recommendations happening. The Midnight Boys have something that is labeled the Midnight grievances. And I always love it when they air their grievances over the Midnight Boys. So that's what's on the slate.

Yes. Also the Ringervverse and House of Ar. Mallorven. That is a lot of content. Yes. How can folks keep track of all of that? Thanks for asking. You're welcome.

Here's what I would recommend. What would you do? Follow the pods. Brilliant. Follow House of R and follow the Ringervverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Guess what? You can watch full video episodes of House of Ar and the Midnight Boys on Spotify. You can also watch full video episodes on the newish ringerverse YouTube channel.

So subscribe there. as well, and then follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. The ringerverse is everywhere. Pick where you want to follow the ringerverse. Also, hobbes and dragons and email.com is an email address. We are constantly monitoring, so please send your question, comments, or concerns, or listen, I got a lot of these are, this is how the suits work on silo, you dummy emails from people who checked out the podcast that I did with Robahoney.

Last week on silo, season two, episode one. Now I know. I know a lot about the silo suits now. Thank you all so much. Mal, we may not be back with some more silo coverage in the new year, but I am so delighted to have you. And thank you so much, Gerot Mahoney, for filling in last week, though bad. Legend I can't always.

I'm thrilled to have you by my side as me explore the sisterhood of Dune. Sisterhood above all. Prophecy. Sisterhood above all in such close proximity to a throat slitting is one of my favorite moments of this episode. Okay, so as we mentioned, this is a six-episode series. It was originally called Dune the Sisterhood. It had a long, long, complicated and battled road to finally debuting on HBO this week. The showrunner, the remaining showrunner on this showrunner.

is Allison Schapker, who you may know from her work on alias, fringe, or Westworld Season 4, asterisk, oh no. Okay, the show draws on, but is set after the Great Schools of Dune Novel Trilogy by Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's kiddo, and Kevin J. Anderson. The novels in question are Sisterhood of Dune, Mentats of Dune, and Navigators of Dune. This is a loose adaptation, drawing some. characters from those books, condensing timelines, all that sort of stuff like that.

So I don't feel like you need to have read these books in order to understand what is going on here, though we will be dipping into some book lore here or there. In our notes today, Mallory, I've written the BBYs are thus. And we had some email this a while ago when I say, what do you mean by BBY? That is, of course, a Star Wars time designation year designation before the Battle of but Mallory loves a timeline. So I just like to call them the BB-wise no matter where we are. So what are the BB-Ys that we're dealing with on this particular show, Mallory?

Thanks for asking. In a very House of the Dragon season one, episode one moment, we had our opening prologue and then, boom, here are some dates to connect this to the character in the story you already know. Correct. Instead of the dates, connecting House of the Dragon to DeNaris Targary. These dates connected Dune Prophecy to Paul Atrides.

We got 116 years after the end of the Great Machine Wars, a lot of thinking machine action here in this premiere. And then this one's easy to remember. 10,148 years. But we're the birth of Paul Atrates. Let's just agree right now in a contract with each other. and all of the bad babies, that we will be saying 10,000,

and that will be fine. Approximately 10,000 years. 10,000-ish. Here's my question. Even that they're, like, condensing and fudging timelines, like, why do you think they laid it on 10,148? I actually like and admire that, you know, be a stickler for the actual timeline

for those who know or want to know and care. And then just accept and take comfort of the fact that everybody else will say, all right, 10,000 years. That's a really long time ago. Is it perhaps so long ago that it defies belief that everything would look exactly the same? That the shields, for example, would be unchanged 10,000 years later, that the outfits would be very similar. Face nets are still in style.

I do like to think that the face net is eternal. That one I have no problem with. And I love that in every June tale we can count on one of our female characters. coming to us from behind netting and or fencing. Would you feel the same about face nets if I fed you a chunk of pomegranate through a face net opening? Only one way to find out. My grubby little thinking.

Only one way to find out you're in L.A. in a couple weeks. I say we make this an experiential podcast and give it a go. You know, I actually have been thinking recently that I'd like to try a pomegranate, like a whole pomegranate again. It's been a while since I've given that a go. Yeah. Okay.

I'll bring the pomegranates. You bring the facelets. Okay. And I will feed you. Does it have to be like a dune appropriate face net? Or can I just bring like a catcher's mask? No catcher's mask. Then we can go play an intramural softball game.

That sounds like. Actually, what about like a ringer versus wiffle ball game? That would be fun. That would be fun. Actually, I'd be game for that. But no. Steve, get on it. Not a catcher's mask.

The orifices are too wide on a catcher's mask. I need a tighter weave so for Max's uncomfortability as we shove the pomfragut and seeds past the opening, you know? Folks, that's the first utterance of the word orifice, but not the last today. Okay, was that the opening snapshot? No, this is the opening snapshot. Let's go to the opening snapshot. It's base witch stuff go with season one.

episode one, The Hidden Hand, directed by Anna Forster, written by Diane Adamoo, John, who was the original co-show runner and stepped down in 2022, but it's still posting about the show on social, so it's not like bridges were

burnt to cinders, but that is who wrote this episode. Here's the first and most important question, which maybe we should have gotten to before we said things like whale seed and orifice, but we didn't. We also I'm not sure our spoiler warning. We'll be talking about whale seed today.

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now streaming on Paramount Plus. Spoilers for Season 1 of Doom Prophecy. What from the books is on the table here today? Anything in everything? I feel like anything from the canon could in theory come up. But we'll use our discretion. This is a fairly loose adaptation. So there's characters like Raquel,

the Mother Superior, who dies at the beginning, is taken from the books. But most of the other characters are sort of show invented. So there's not like a ton of one-to-one. There's like context we can extrapolate, but not a ton of like one-to-one plot beat spoilers that we can extract from the books. So yes, the books are game. We won't be necessarily going to them constantly.

And I do not have any major twist-and-turn spoilers for you that come from the books because it's sort of a different story they're telling. Thanks for reminding me about the spoiler warning. What did you like this show, Mallory? Did any performances stand out? Did you have any thoughts on the set deck? The visual effects? Anything else?

What do you think? Yeah, we both wrote down Terminator? Question mark? Like in our notes in terms of the just opening visual for the prologue, which I think establishing the thinking machines as a presence that's looming over this part of the timeline made a lot of sense. I mean, when you read Dune, the thinking machines are a huge part of the early chapters in terms of just like cementing.

where the characters came from, how this world and this like order that drives the world came into place. I did find that to be a sort of disorienting visual opening note and then paired with the very quick mentions of Atreides, Harkinan, it was a fascinating mix of trying to like give us something I think deliberately that felt distinct and new and also orient us in those familiar Dune keywords. Overall, I thought the premiere was okay. I thought the premiere was like good, but definitely not great. I'm intrigued and excited to see more, and I am glad to be in the Dune sandbox and to be expanding the world and the timeline on the screen,

because obviously the text, as you noted, is vast now in terms of how many different eras, various spinoff trilogies or novels cover. And so it's fun to dabble in a different stretch of the story. story. I think that thematically, like the thrust of this series, at least what we understand, the thrust of the series to be based on one episode. Prophecy, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Dunes. Prophecy. Prophecies about the thing that you were maybe seeking to avoid, etc. That's like, that's stuff that we love. So I am just genuinely very interested to see what the story does with that and to explore these themes, like, what do you make of a character like Valiah who talks about unity but is so quick to thwart anybody who challenges her? It's unity only by her terms and her definition, et cetera. Thematically, I'm incredibly intrigued by the opening note of the story.

It felt a little bit clunky to me in terms of how those themes were unfurled for us. and often that would be just a character actually just directly saying out loud the thing that we should maybe be soaking up or absorbing through subtext and inference. I think also just, you know, it's a lot of new characters who feel familiar and fit some sort of due archetype

but then are deliberately a degree removed and so I think there's an acclimation period. I'm really eager to, I haven't watched any beyond the first so I'm like eager to see if even as soon as the second episode I sink into the rhythm of this particular. slice of the world and these particular character dynamics a little bit more. Broadly, though, the idea of focusing on the Benny Jesuit and focusing on the palace intrigue, we talked about this a lot when we were covering the Villeneuve films, which we adore,

love, think our masterpieces, genuine masterpieces, both part one and part two. But we noted in both our part one and part two pod that the one thing that's missing a little bit from them that we love from the text is the palace intrigue. And so centering a series, a prestige series around the palace intrigue specifically is very compelling to me. So I would say the moderate success is an opening episode, but in terms of just the premise and the proposition of the series, I remain a captive audience. How about you? Yeah, I feel similarly. I feel quite mixed on it. There are some things, I think a really good sort of visual encapsulation of my mixed feelings are there are ties on this looks like the most expensive television show

that's ever existed and there are times when it looks like it belongs on sci-fi in like 2003. You know what I mean? Like especially like much great televisions. That I loved. Like when they, I'm not knocking sci-fi shows, but I'm just saying it's a very different digital palette. Like especially when they go to the club and some of the costuming around that and a set deck around that just like looked like a different show to me.

entirely. So there are times when I feel like, yes, I can see how this world is also. You were looking at something other than Nez grabbing Kieran's boner as they, you had time for anything else in that sequence? Wow. I watched this episode a few times. So eventually I was able to. When we returned to the text on second viewing. I was able to let my eyes wander elsewhere. They really zoomed in on the thing. They really did. They really did. So, yeah, mixed. Quite mixed, I think, visually. But again, there's like some parts of this that are quite sumptuous. And there's some performances they find quite compelling and some performances that are like kind of jangling out of tune for me. Like, I am willing to stay tuned and see how it works. But so far, Travis Fimmel, who, you know, a lot of people love from Vikings, et cetera, like as Desmond Hart, I understand what he's going for, which is absolute maniac.

Yeah. It's not fully landing for me yet, but it's early doors. And then I have another note that I'm going to say for like this very next section we're about to do about sort of its success as a pilot for a TV show versus like a continuation of an IP that we're already familiar with. A thing that I am very, very excited about a piece of casting that I'm very excited about and the promise that I'm very excited about is Jessica Barden as young Vali. Jessica Barton, I know Best from the TV series, End of the Fucking World, which I think she's incredible in.

And I've seen her pop up and a bunch of other stuff. And she does a really good, like, slightly unhinged. And that's like the energy she brings to Young Vallia. Yeah. And, you know, seeing that evolve into the restraint of Emily Watson and other performer who I really love,

like I'm interested in connecting those dots between those two versions of the same woman. Yeah. And I love Olivia Williams in general. You know, I thought always so good. I thought she has, as Kasha was like very, very compelling to me. Yeah. Rust and crispy pieces.

Tough way to go. Tough way to go. But there's promises of flashbacks in this. So like I'm hopeful that that's not the last we see of her. And then it's, I guess, is Mark Strong season, you know, both on the penguin and here. He's just taking the Zazlov bucks left and right. This next point I want to embed into this next section I have for you, which is like you already called out the sort of approximately 10,000 years before the birth of Politrates

and how much that reminded both of us about the before the birth of the Deneres Targaryen opening, how could it not of House of the Dragon? How many Thrones comps can you count aside from the fact that Mark Adi, who Bobby B himself is in the trailer, so he will be in this show. He just wasn't in his episode. And Jody May, Maggie the Frog herself,

who plays the Empress Natalia. What was making you think about Thrones when you were watching this show? Because it feels clear to me that unlike the Penguin, wasn't going for this, but it really feels like this show was sort of swinging for the throne fences

in a few different ways. Yeah, for sure. So a number of, of things. I have, I think that the Constantine John Snow comp seems to be sweeping the internet. I will say I'm slightly, I mean, obviously yes, in terms of the like, illegitimate child of the Lord. Is they just such a different energy to me? It's the curls. It is the mop of curls, for sure. Is it that John Snow gave off the most I'm a virgin energy? And Constine definitely.

is that. It's like, yes, I'm sorry, but there's no world where we will ever be getting a scene where Constantine scrubbing a table at Castle Black describes Roz's perfect breasts to Samwell Tarley. That's not happening. He did wear a vest over a bare chest to the nightclub division immediately hit the pipe and then probably fuck the entire room. Also, he like played his musical instrument. at the engagement ceremony, he's not shy, he's not reserved. He knows where to put it.

He knows where to put it. He knows where to put it. So I didn't know how to put it. Great stuff. In general, obviously, this is more House of the Dragon, again, than Thrones, but the prequel nature.

And then inside of it, this is a little bit of a distinction in terms of how House of the Dragon Season 1 versus Dune Prophecy are structured. But you mentioned the flashbacks. I guess there's a version of a version of the series, though probably not in a six-episode season where we just got all of the flashback stuff

in an episode or two and then moved to the 30-year-later timeline. I am, without the clarity of how the full season goes, very glad that's not what happened. I think dotting in the flashbacks sporadically throughout these six episodes will allow us to, like, root ourselves in the timeline in which the bulk of the story is taking place. So that feels right.

You know, I already mentioned the palace intrigue. Obviously, that's just a very thronesian approach for examining who has their hand on or near the lever of power. What do people do to try to acquire that control and then hold on to it? Has anyone actually said when you play the game of Thrones, do you win or you die? There is no in between. Not yet, but if they did, I wouldn't be surprised, right? When you play the game of the Golden Lion's throne. Yeah, like it's so many shots of the throne. Oh my God, quite a few. Prophecy, of course, and I think in a number of different ways. And we'll get into that a little bit more as we go. And obviously, the series is called

Dune Prophecy. We'll be talking about these prophecies throughout the season, certainly. And we talked a lot about prophecy when we covered the Dune films. And we'll talk about prophecy quite a bit one day in the future at an undetermined time when we do our Paul of Fame eventually. And our multi-part prophecy. Our multi-part prophecy tropes, all of which is definitely coming in the future. Yeah, absolutely. You know, how could you not hold your breath and stay? Just don't hold your breath. Breathe freely and stay alive. How can we not think about a character like Rainira when we're seeing just through one episode so far

this aspect of I have been chosen, I have been ordained, right? The idea of prophecy gives me the right to make decisions that I believe in. How can we not think of a character like Circe? Not only because Mags is here, Maggie the Frog is here, but that idea of like self-fulfilling prophecy. Thrones is all over.

And then, you know, we'll talk about this relationship in more detail later, but and I think it's it's clearly different so I don't want to imply it's a one-to-one but I did get some Circey Robert vibes from the Empress and the Emperor in terms of like one of them yeah seems a little bit more into what could have been maybe in terms of a true love emotional attachment and one of them is not in that place and then Mallor if you ever wearily turn to me and say we remember things differently I will cry for a week and then the hand just slowly slowly moves away.

True scenes from marriage stuff. But yeah, this idea of like a political union that cemented stability in the realm and how that can simultaneously be an important thing for the realm. The realm.

Sorry, I just have to go into little finger mode any time I say the realm. But also have a real bearing on the people who are inside of that marriage and how the people who are in that marriage, of course, see it differently and understand it differently than the people who only look at it from the outside.

So the Thrones was inescapable. It was everywhere. What did I miss? What about a religious fanatic who burns people? Great one. Great one. I think this idea of like dueling ideologies, you know, if, if Desmond Hart wants to fuck someone on a map table, we are open to this possibility. Just always seems so painful to me.

You can, like, feel the spine bruises. just clattering to the floor. Here's the structural issue that I have with the show and how it pertains to something like the Game of Thrones pilot, which is held up as a really good example of the genre, which is this is something you and I have talked about. This is something that I got from Friend of the Pod, Brian Cogman, talking about how they decide to structure

the pilot of Game of Thrones and how the book Game of Thrones opens, which is this is as well after the cold open this um this is a story of an old friend coming to his old friend's house for dinner yep we've talked about that phrase a lot and so this idea of we're meeting these people on such a human level and you have to keep it really simple and human at first as you introduce all the starks and then like here's son son she has a crush on the prince and here's the boys and they're getting a shave you know and here's brand and he's running around and like all the sort of stuff like that, you know, and like Tyrion's in the brothel and like, what are we doing in the opening moments of Game of Thrones pilot?

Are we giving thousands of years of historical context or laboriously telling you exposition after exposition after exposition? No, we are not. We are introducing you on a character, human level to this world. And this episode broadly failed to do that for me. it ends similarly, it ends with a shocking death or shocking harm to a young boy, brand out the window and this kid getting crispy fried, like similar sort of like, what won't they do on this show, you know, sort of moment? So I understand that, but it really failed in that sort of like,

warnly inviting you into the hearth of this world. Yeah. And holding your hand and saying, like, don't worry. Don't worry about the white. We'll talk about it later. It's fine. Like, you know, Ben, Ben, I'll mention it. But like, don't worry too much about it, you know?

And like this, we are asked to hold a lot of information and a lot of mythology. There is a presumption going into this that didn't exist for Thrones of you've probably seen Dune. You've probably seen the movie Dune. You know what Shy Hullood is. Like, you've probably seen it. But I still think on like a fundamental TV level to get us to care about, they do it a little bit with the young acolyte women that we meet. we meet them sort of like gossiping in a library and stuff like that. But for characters, especially characters like Vali and Tula,

who are like these like sort of severe women, like I need to understand them on a human level before they understand them on an institutional level. So again, with the younger generation over the palace as well, I think there's like slightly more success. But I still think that like this is a fundamental, there's a dazzling show. It has a lot on its mind, which as you pointed out,

it is sort of just overtly saying, but on a human, I'm compelled by the human drama here, I'm struggling a bit to find it. So the heart of the show, you know? Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I really agree. I think that was on my mind a lot with Valiah,

who, you know, again, we'll talk about later, but it kept striking me throughout the episode and I like thinking about this now through that Thrones comp you made of the pilot with the pilot, the number of times that Valia will invoke Raquelah and Rakella not just choosing her, but specifically that this was what Raquelah wanted.

This was what she believed. And I'm sort of like, but I don't know her. Yeah. And I don't know what she meant to you other than this idea of found family and escape from a family that you are ashamed of. And we have little colonels, you know, the refusal to give the Harkinans a truth-sayer on their fourth. Stop fucking asking.

The venom and her voice when she denied them yet again was a notable. But, you know, when Robert arrives at Winterfell and despite Cersie reminding him that they have been on the road for a month, insists that he and Ned go down to the crypt immediately so that he can visit Leanna. it will be in the real-time stretch of watching Thrones together nearly a decade before we have all the clarity that we need about the history with Leanna and Rhaegar and Robert and Ned. But we understand everything that's important about the ghost of the past that drive those characters and the history that cements their bond

or the Rift in certain cases. So that's just absent here so far. And it doesn't mean that it can't be a stupt. in subsequent episodes, but it definitely made it harder to feel a deeper sense of understanding of what is motivating the characters, but beyond what is on the surface level, which is like some sort of quest for power. And we do have, you know, again, like little nuggets that point us toward other things. And maybe the fact that we can't understand for a character like Valiah, oh, is there any sort of justification? It's part of the point, right? Because it is just for her

another shield or sword that she can use to push her own agenda forward. That's entirely possible. But when it's propped up throughout the episode as, well, this is the thing that I'm telling other people or that's driving me, we don't have a touchpoint for that really resonating. I think the best example of how clumsily this is done in this episode. And again, there are things I really did like about this episode. Same. But, like, is the rolling out of the four acolytes via, like, let's go through them like

Pokemon cards. We have the visuals on the little, like, handheld device. We're talking about this acolyte. And here's a two-sentence recap of, like, her characteristics or this, that, and the other thing. And, like, there's versions of that in Thrones. We're, like, talking about the imp or this, that are the other things. like the things that people say about other characters, the hound, etc.

But like you have moments in the Thrones pilot like, you know, Catlin and Mace Rlewin talking about like getting extra candles for Tyrion because he likes to read. You know what I mean? It's not like, literally just thinking about that. Here's period.

He likes to read. That's one way you could do it. Or we got to make sure we have extra candles for this guy because he loves, you know, it's just a different way into the same information. So, yes. All right.

Well, let's go through. sort of what I'm, this section I'm calling, what's most important to know? Okay. So as you noted, we both wrote Terminator in our notes about these. What in the Terminator was that opening battle, aka Beginner's Guide to the Butlerian Jihad. The Butlerian Jihad is what this sort of uprising of humans

against AI machines that Frank Herbert talks about in the Dune novel and is part of a lot of the subsequent lore. Per the show, the quote, the show, humans rose up against a thinking machines that enslaved them. In the Frank Herbert lore, the sort of commandment that comes out of this conflict is, quote, thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.

So while they're still using technology here there and elsewhere, they are, there are limits to that. I'm very simple. I'm very anti-AI general. Every time Google tries to AI recap something for me, I'm like, no, take me to the article. I will click. This journalist did work. Stop selling it up AI.

So like, do that too, guys. Support journalism. But like the, so like the little lizard, obviously, is like an AI lizard. And so that's a problem in the way that like these little viewfinders or whatever else aren't. Anything else you want to say about the Bulgarian jihad, how Frank Herbert talks about it or its impact. on the story here. No, I just, again, was interested in how prominent

this was in the premiere. Like, in a way that makes me wonder what role the thinking machines are going to play in the series. And that was part of what was, I found simultaneously fun and, like, slightly distracting

about the premiere, was trying, and this is just about me as a viewer, not really about the show. But I do think what you said is right, that the show is counting on a lot of people having familiarity with Dune and bringing that to the show. story. So I was kind of constantly thinking about Paul,

who he saw Tatarach, you know, the things that we know on the prophecy front, the subsequent jihad and the future of the timeline and like, wait, how much of what we're hearing about or seeing in this pilot is heading toward an outcome we're familiar with that far in the future, how much of it is about the show counting on us, wondering that and then giving us a much nearer term outcome instead. and what role then will the thinking machines have in that maybe nearer term conflict? And that feels likely to me at this point, whether there's like a, and Desmond is on my mind in that respect.

Just even we'll talk more like later about what is going on with his power and his ability and everything that happened with Desmond and the sandworm on Iraqis and what the emperor witnessed. But, you know, he's got like these eyes and the scar and the way he's touching. the side of his head when he's burning Pruitt alive and like he's doing this from a great distance to Kasha we think or assume and it's like the look on his face when Pruitt invoked his father's belief that everybody's just like a touch too sensitive about the thinking machines making their way back into society. He's like and obviously that's set up in that scene and that conversation as it had elsewhere with Desmond, this comp that he's making between the thinking machines and the sisterhood. Like we move.

We went to war to, yeah, thwart this one element of control only to find ourselves under the thrall of another body. But is that why they're there as that point of comparison? Like, oh, is the sisterhood any better actually than the machines that sought to control everyone? Or are the machines actually coming into play? That's just sort of a question in my mind after the episode. The fact that there's a toy at the engagement ceremony, it's like, oh, the tech is back in people's hands. That has to matter. Or never left, you know, like, so on just a broad note, I just want to say,

Duke Riteze was like one of my favorite characters. I just love like a shitty old dude and he's shitty and great. Wild stuff from that entire family. Yeah. Their commitment to the color peach is extraordinary. And I just want to feel like that later. Beautiful. I like the idea that like the Dune that we meet in Frank Herbert's

book in Milnev's films is approximately 10,000 years in the future. So 10,000 years removed from this war,

whereas we're only 100. We're fresh off this war. And so imagine in our world if someone decided to ban AI.

I support it. I know there's people listening here are going to be like, some AI is good, but I kind of like slippery slope. Let's get rid of AI.

That's how I kind of feel. Havas &ragonsu's a Gmail.com if you belong to the AI lobby, I don't care. But if someone outlawed it, do you think it would just go away? No, wouldn't. And people would use it clandestinely as to have an edge over people. And especially in a world where we are backbiting for power, where we have an emperor, but we also have an emperor who needs this other house

because of their ships. Yeah, of course AI is like an individual. advantage you would try to use just the same way you might try to use like, you know, a fire mage or whatever else you might have in your pocket. So I just think, I think that's interesting. I love all the questions you're asking. We don't know the answer to how fundamentally it will play into it, but it makes so much sense that it wouldn't just be done. Right. And like that, the other thing about this very opening stretch of the prologue is like it, I think intentionally again invokes the, the new films with that opening.

epigraph, right? The text epigraph and like a tonal sound. This one was more of like a whisper than a shrieker. Shout to be a jump out of our seats in the movie theater. But we get that tone. That resonant is inside the prophecy. Yes. There are some spooky sounds for sure. But victory is celebrated in the light, but it is one in the darkness. Obviously, that's mostly there about to set the tone for what the sisterhood is doing and this idea of seeking to gain and then control power from the shadows, perhaps through ill deeds. But that also applies to what you're saying, like what is happening in the darkness that other people can't glimpse until it comes into the light because a little asshole rolls it out of his pocket at a party and then is burned alive mere hours

later. Tough final day. Pruit also, my favorite character is just great. Just honestly, House Richeze. I'm interested in your... The Duke and Pruehichet, like, to me, this sounds like a a group of Jets bloggers like Prover Chazy here some thoughts on Aaron Rogers I love it All right let's talk about the breeding program Welcome to the genetic archives

Eugenics, eugenics, it's here So this is a secret project to breed Better Leaders and Raquelah quote amassed A vast genetic archive We who have spent time In the Dune world know that this is a secret project to breed better leaders and Raquelah quote amassed a vast genetic archive. know that this will all one day results in Paul Atreides

who was supposed to be a girl, Jessica. The Quissat Parac, as you put it out, that's something that's on our mind. But the fact, what I love, because when we talked about this in covering Doom Part 1 and 2, and one of my favorite things to say is,

Jessica, 10,000 years in the making, approximately, 10,000 years in the this program and you're just like my husband's hot and he wanted a boy. I wanted to suck it. Fuck it. I made him a boy instead. It's nice to feel the distance of that history to be like all these moves there, all these chess moves they're making here. And we'll talk about this a little bit more when we get to like prophecy and what it means to know the outcome of certain things when we're dealing with a realm of prophecy. But just to like watch

to make all these moves here, which is thwarted before the end. of this episode when Pruitt gets like crispy fried right but like to watch them make these moves here and know that like 10,000 years from now Jessica Jessica's gonna be like he looks like Oscar. I's like I don't know what to tell you he wanted a boy so fuck your 10,000 years of chess moves. Oh man. Anything else you know about the breeding? You wanted a sister on the throne. You got Chalabay. It's hard to complain. No yeah. I mean you know I thought this stretch felt like in effective tie to the stretches of the story that we're familiar with, you know, both in terms of establishing just what the sisterhood was and was meant to be at this point in time. And also,

obviously, as we build toward this sense of the reckoning and the role of prophecy, you know, together they would form a network of influence throughout the Imperium. Rekella would use it to govern the future. Like we're thinking of a, you know, the shortening of the way, preparing the way. All of the moments in the story in the future where we will see the priming of a people in a world for the great arrival of this moment. And I liked that part of the prequel that made me feel like at home in the universe in a way that I enjoyed. Obviously, in general, everything about the breeding program is horrific and they're playing God and it's dangerous hubris. And I I thought that Mallory's like, but if I could create the perfect Orioles lineup, would I?

It's tempting. You can say. No. Mallory is not a eugenicist. No, I'm not. Thanks for that important point of clarity. Partner. The positioning of Dorothea as like the opponent to our primary.

antagonist and the zealot. The idea of zealotry in the group of, from our perspective, clearly right and more measured and sensible characters, right? Like, don't disfigure the soul. Yeah, good note. Let's not do that. You know, the breeding program, this is wrong. This is we're playing God, like, correct.

And so the fact that Vali and others paint them as the zealots. tells us everything we need to know about. It tells us a lot, but the thing that I'm really thinking about is the way in which we see this zealotry, they say it again when they're talking about, like, one of the acolytes, sister Emmeline, that she is like too pious, right? So these like kernels of zealotry still in the sisterhood. But how they maybe haven't yet, but will one day weaponize zealotry for their own cause, But right now, Balia is thinking of it only as a threat to her,

but Will eventually thinking about the power of zealotry and how she can, or the sisterhood will as an agency, think about how they can wield that sort of as a cudgel, I think is really interesting. How does prophecy work in the Dune universe? Don't remember Mentat's? Don't worry, we've got you. I mean, Vildove cut a lot of the Mentat stuff out of the movie,

so perhaps we don't need to dwell too much, but Mentats are the humans that replace computers and are so advanced and precise and their analytical skills, plus a little bit of spice, that they seem to be able to predict the future. Really, there's making highly educated guesses. Spice confers a degree of prescience. That's just true, spice in general.

And then Fremen have a natural ability. There's like a Paul and Shawnee sequence where she's talking. This feels like maybe a spoiler for the Villeneuve film, so I'm not going to get into it too much. But like he says at the end of this thing, he says, they, meaning the Fremen, they've a little of the talent, his mind told him, but they suppress it because it terrifies. So this idea that like the Fremen have this sort of like maybe because of just their exposure to spice, whatever, this sort of natural affinity towards Prescience. And then Raquelah, once again, one of the few characters in the show who comes from the books. In the books, her ability comes from having survived a plague, her own genetic material.

It's a very complicated backstory that they didn't really get into it. But like this idea that it can be sort of trained into you, truth speaking is like the main talent that this era of the sisterhood is interested in fostering. But this idea of prescience and prophecy envisions spice related and independent to spice is something that is not like wholly concretely defined in the Herbert universe, but it's just sort of like here and there and everywhere. Does that dissatisfactorily answer that? Because I feel like Herbert doesn't really

crystal clearly define it, you know? Yeah, I think that's a good snapshot. And I thought in the premiere, because we get multiple different visions, right? We have Raquelas, we have Kachas, et cetera. It felt important when Kasha returned in shocking fashion. Follya still can't believe it,

to Wallach Nine to have her, say what I saw was no ordinary nightmare, the fear I felt I still feel. Like a group of people where prophecy, visions, truth saying, the water of life, etc., it's like all part of this Benny Jeserite school, this was a shocking thing to her. Like, this was not common. And so to establish it as out of the ordinary in a character set where we would like expect more familiarity with something like this felt it felt like a good way to kind of orient us. And this proto version of the sisterhood

where their strongest capability is lie detecting because we see Vali essentially like discover the voice and so this idea of control the controlling the hidden hand the controlling they're doing from the shadows from behind

the various veils and mesh and stuff like that is they've made themselves useful as lie detectors, but they are not yet at the point where they are like massively directly controlling people the way that eventually they'll be able to. Right. Interesting. We're going to go through the major houses. Let's start with House Carino.

The rulers of the imperial, perium, and they will, spoiler, stay that way. Shadam the fourth. Christopher Wackett himself is. house carino so this is like they're on the golden lion throne for the foreseeable um natalia mm-hmm and havaco have a go have a co we're working through it we're working through the pronunciation of the emperor's name have a have a go have a go it's interesting in interviews with jody may she has says that this is a love-based marriage but I have no textual evidence in this first episode to back that up.

So I'm wondering if that's like a one-sided, like she, similar to sort of that Circey Robert, at least in the TV show vibes, this idea that like maybe she was in love and he never was or something like that. What do you think about that? We don't have enough information yet, but that was also my read after one episode. Yeah. You know, she is the one who reminds him and thus tells us, like, I know exactly. what our marriage did, I brokered it. She's obviously always had the clarity of the political

value, but the reaching of the hand, you know, the emotion behind there was a time when you took my views seriously, the Imperium was stronger for it. Like the subtext of that is also our marriage was stronger for it when you trusted me and relied on me and you put more

stock in my opinion than in your Benny Jesuit witch's opinion, right? She's not a fan of Kasha and the hold that Kasha has over the emperor. Yeah. And he's just like, you and I we remember things very differently. Also,

he has a legitimate kid and we don't know one episode in what's up with that. We don't know. She doesn't seem to be too Catlin about it. And we should note that in, at least in the Dune timeline that we're more familiar with,

this idea of like the air you have with your wife versus, you know, the love match with like your concubine is a very commonplace thing. Less so than in the Thrones world where Catlin's like, fuck this kid.

Terrible. Yeah. So we don't, but like the thing we don't know yet is is he in love with someone else. Right. Who's Constantine's mom and was that a love match of some kind? Okay.

These are peacetime rulers after generations of war, right? That is that is a premise of sort of which has to make us think of like the Saris and stuff like that. And then... He did great. Everything. Everything was fine, right? Yeah. Remember how he built his little, like, model of Ovaleria? So nice. So nice. Davidly. Love a Lego. Okay. Natalia is someone I have my beady eye on inside of this episode. This isn't a theory show necessarily, but it is a show about, like, palace intrigue and hidden hands. And so I just want us to all, like, pay close attention to Natalia, right? Because,

she resents her dwindling influence on the emperor seemingly is not alive with the sisterhood, right? So to your point about that line where she says, I brokered our marriage, and she says, I'm telling you, they, meaning the Bada Jesuit, chose that boy, R.I.P. Pruitt, knowing his age would give them the sisters years

to make Naz one of their own. So she resents the Badajazzarit influence. And Kasha says that her role, Kasha, rest in peace, said her role was to actively deflect the Empress's interference, right? Yes. So

how this episode's ends is the royal marriage is off because Pruitt is dead. Brut. And the Benad-Jezer's main influence in the court, Kasha, is also dead. And the person who wanted both of those things to happen is Natalia.

She's against the wedding before the emperor was. And then he just like kind of decide like he first says he isn't and then he just kind of decides that he's against the wedding and then Desmond Hart makes it so essentially um cautious off the board this is convenient to Natalia so like yeah i don't know if i'm reading too much into this because a i love jody may not just in thrones but last the mohicans like great actress wonderful actress to cast she is fourth build on the series yeah uh that just seems like something to keep our eye on yeah and she's also the person who most lost her shit over that little AI toy.

And that's just something. Definitely. Yeah. Keep an eye on. So how is Natalia sort of reading for you and all of this? I like everything you're putting out there. Yeah. So in terms of the emperor's feeling on the marriage, I found it that tells us a lot about his character.

Because I think he, when he's telling dead. I think his marriage is a bad idea. It felt to me less the dawning of that realization and more that he had finally found the courage to say it out loud or that like it mattered more to him than. Or it was different to like actually look at a nine-year-old versus to see about the concept of a nine-daughter pomegranate seeds through netting.

But like he's being controlled, right? And part of the sisterhood's manipulation here is, as we hear in the Kasha-Tula Valiah sequence, the way that they're about how they're making life difficult for him on Iraqis, you know, take out the regiments, take out the spice loads, make sure that he needs that fleet that the Rochazis are offering him so that he has to say yes to the marriage that we are invested in seeing through because it aligns with our breeding index and the bloodline that we're seeking to secure. So when he pulls Kasha aside and is like,

this guy's like trying to make a fool of me, she makes sure that he agrees to the plan, etc. And it felt like almost he couldn't, not that he didn't feel that way already when he was having the conversation with the empress, but that he couldn't let her know it. And that was part of the power in their relationship, like not being able to concede to her

that he wasn't in command of the decisions he was making. From the Natalia side of it, the scene that struck me most. I thought the scene with the emperor and empress was really good. I also found her reaction to the little toy quite notable and frankly, more appropriate than anybody else's reaction

in the room. And the emperor being like, well, you know, we all make mistakes was so weird to me and the fact that everyone was like, cool, let's just like keep partying. I found absolutely bizarre. The scene that told me the most about Natalia was the one with Nets. Yeah, yeah.

And in a way that made me feel sick, Like, putting the, like, cage on her. Yeah, yeah. Cloaking her and dressing her in, it's one more, like, method of control, ultimately, right? This is the thing that I want you to wear. But then she's just, again, saying it, like, Nez kind of mocks the garb, right? Oh, yeah, understated. And her mother says, it's a symbol of strength, something I wish you'd show a little more of.

And that's just a fucked up thing to say to your kid. So, and especially because, I mean, it would be. I think equally fucked up to be clear if that were actually true. But Nes is like, this is what I want. You know, I'm capable of making the decision that I think is best for me. Whether that's ultimately true or not, we have other textual evidence to assess inside of the episode. Seems like she has her reasons. She was groomed by Kasha, essentially, to want to join this.

Yes, and that's terrible. But she's like from her mother, and her mother's bringing all of that to it, right? She's like, you are in the web. of this group that I don't trust. And so, like, she's right to flag that. But the way that she's doing it is by telling her own child that she's, like, not being strong

because she wants something. And that was, there's a rigidity that all of the characters are bringing to their interpersonal dynamics that, like, makes you feel like, okay, this is a show where people are going to have a very hard time making progress with each other

because they're also dug in. So when Nez says to the Empress, like every year before he comes of age is mine to, do with what I will. I'd make him younger if I could. I thought that was a great line and a great moment because we're like, this is a character who wants her independence. Valia is like, here's the recruit we need. And you're like, no, no, no, right? This is actually not someone who's maybe primed to adhere the way that you need people to. There's a fascinating tension there. The fact that Nez wants

to become her own person and forge her own path and not just do what her mom is saying, but also do that inside of a group that we know is seeking to control her is very interesting to me. So I liked that scene a lot and I thought it's set up some interesting dynamics to come. I really agree this idea of like who is controlling who, who is the hidden hand behind all of this sort of stuff. And like this line we get later from the emperor, we're going to talk about the seat a bit more. But when he says when, when Desmond is talking about like a power beyond man and machine, He's talking about God.

He's talking about religion. And the emperor says, religion, that's my wife's comfort. You know what I mean? It's just sort of this idea of religious zealotry or just, you know, basic religion. Who knows? That belongs in a tali in a way that, like, he references, but we don't, we haven't really seen yet. I don't know. Just got my beady little ironer.

Jody May. What a great, what a great actor. So I'm excited. The legitimate heir, Ines. Wild Child, Drugtaker, a tradie. fucker. I mean, you know, thought of Kasha, who was a mother, thought of Kasha as a mother, eager to join the Butta Desert. She hints in a traumatic backstory, right? Yes. Kasha says, remember the day my sisters and I found you. We had no

way of knowing that what we would discover, a child held captive for years. Yeah. The moment I saw you, I knew that one day you would lead our Imperium to a better future. So what the hell do you mean held captive for years? the legitimate daughter of the emperor. What is that story? You know, that's fascinating. Yeah. There's, this is interview based.

So it doesn't feel like a spoiler, but like there's an implication that Constantine, but their bond is a bond of some sort of traumatic event that they experienced together. So like what, what was it? That's like a, that's an interesting little nugget to chew on. Yeah. I, uh, I, I clocked that as well.

The three possibilities in real time that occurred to me were like, okay, an actual captive. Something horrible happened. She was kidnapped or something. The sisterhood rescued her from that peril, and thus her intrigue is actually rooted in devotion and gratitude, and that would be a harder thing for somebody else, even her own mother, to break and challenge.

The idea of almost more of a political, like, was she like a ward at some point or something, you know, Like, was there that kind of a... Yeah. Yeah. That seems hard to understand why that would be the case when they're the ruling power. But anyway, or, like, almost more of a... Like, ideological.

Yeah. Like, we broke you out of the prison of your mind in this, like, life where you had not been enlightened. Yeah. That certainly wouldn't align with the idea of, like, a traumatic bond. But I guess it's possible that Kasha's referring to any number of those things. Wonder one will find. out. So that makes me think also that we're going to get, well, actually, I was going to say flashbacks for all the characters. I guess still that if the sisterhood are always the point of view for the flashbacks, then Kasha could still be our way into that. Like, so you think we're going to get flashbacks for every character? I don't know. Let's see who's playing younger. There's a younger Kasha. We see Kasha in the earlier timeline. So there is room for a younger Kasha sort of in the story there. Constantine, we've already talked about a big...

I have no notes. Genuinely zero. When he walked into the library, first of all, great library. Gorgeous library. When they say about idle hands? Yes. A man with no purpose devises only mischief. Exactly.

Nothing I like more than a man with great wealth than idle hands. It's like, I don't know. Let's put those hands to work, actually. Hell yes. The sisterhood are not a celibate order. We should note. Okay. So the thing about Constantine is, yes, he's illegitimate, but like there's no other than he's not going to inherit the throne.

There's no indication that he's treated as like much lesser than he's given an important diplomatic errand to Wallach 9, you know, to lay the groundwork for his sister. Playboy, drug taker. I think that's a ballast that he's playing. There's nine strings on it. I believe, I mean, it's like a little taller. than the one we see Gurney playing, but I think it's just a fancier ball set. And actually,

we're loyal to unprotective of Vanessa. Anything else we want to say about his curls? His... Fantastic stuff. Fuck me eyes. Okay, great. Absolutely wonderful. I enjoyed the very charming,

you know, I had to try smoke when he was like trying to negotiate for private quarters for Mnese with Valia and just immediately gave up and clearly it was just like, this is just a fun afternoon. out in the political theater for me. I really enjoyed him.

I thought it was also interesting, too, when he got back to the palace and saw his sister and Kieran at a lesson. Training, training, clearly about to fuck. And, you know, seemed really happy for them. He's like supportive. Yeah.

So that brings us to House of Trades. High on the list because there are trainees, but not so much because of their importance in history at this moment. So, Karen Atreides, he's a swordmaster. Duck in Idaho and Gurney Halleck were sword masters to House of Trades in Dune. Princess Fucker,

he slightly hesitates before he has sex with her. Does that make him one of the more moralistic characters, or am I just Atreides projecting? He definitely gave it a beat to make sure she was like, this is what I want to do. You know, there was enough time for her to say, like in two days, I'm out of here to a whole other life.

for it. So that was nice. He looks so much like, do you know who Max Verstappen is? No. He is, Max Verstappen is the F1 champion. Until Landonaris unseats him, let's go, papaya hive. And this actor. A little too much for a little Landowners. Exactly. Yeah. You know who Landau is thanks to the meme and chicken shop dates. Kieran is like Max for Stappen's doppelganger.

I couldn't believe it. I had to like Google if they were related. I think he looks like an Ashmore, like Sean Ashmore, very strong of jaw, very stubbly. Great casting, honestly, I think. Yeah, fantastic. Looks upright and true. Gave us a little Obi-1 energy, right? We got a little bit of your eyes can deceive you.

Don't trust them from him with a lesson. Focus on the body. not the blade, the eyes, they can lie, but this. Here. Oh, God. Here. This will tell you where your opponent's setting even before they know. Any excuse.

Your point about the fact that the technology on the shields has not changed in approximately thereabouts 10,000 years is so, I also wrote that down is very true, but also it just does look great. It's a great visual. It's the best. It's so good. one of my favorite things to see on the screen, I'll never complain. Okay.

Valiah says, in her opening, history says it was an Atreides that led them to victory, and the Harkinans were villains and cowers when speaking about the butlery and jihad. That seems to me like a convenient way to... I mean, it's true, according to lore. There is an Atreides hero that leads... The full Eland. According to lore.

But like, don't burn those scrolls. We need them. But that seemed to be like a... you made to mention the Atradis in the Harkinen in the opening minutes of the show. And all in all the Atreides are fairly tangential in the story we're telling here. It was also nice that, you know, he is referred to as Kieran multiple times, actually, but also he is referred to, hopefully, as Atreides multiple times, just to remind us that there's an Atreides in the story. It's sort of like, we're like, oh, my God, a Stark is here.

And you're like, yeah, way up there. Don't worry. They're not, okay. How's Harkening? So that was House of Trades. How's Harkening? Boy. Disgraced and banished to the frigid outposts,

Lakeaville, I think it's how you pronounce it, in the galaxy. Valiya. Our main POVE character, at least at first, hero or villain? Or both is the question here. She says she's talking in girly pop language that we have learned decoded as heroic. I broke free from the past and chose a new family, made up a woman unafraid of their power.

Or when she says to her sister, when was I ever tame? Never if you ask our mother. And we're like, yes, girl, yes, ascend the ranks. And at the same time, scary. Murderous for the greater good, all this sort of stuff like that. So, yeah, it implies the backstory of a powerful young woman made to hide and feel ashamed of her power back at home with the Harkinens. And she hates them so much. She will not send them a Benazer, like a representative. She's like, fuck them. Let them. Let them. I don't care. Eat shit or whale seed. Whalee or whale. Choke on the whale fur, okay? But how much is she motivated by personal grievance and vengeance?

How much is he a true believer in the greater good? These are the questions assembled before the jury today. Yeah. What do you want to say about Zalia that we haven't already said? Fascinating character. I'm excited to spend more time with her. The moment when young Valiah uses the voice on Dorothea was so... Jessica Byrne.

Like, I gasped. The icon. Yeah. Incredible and obviously very deeply harrowing. And it made me think of something like, I always like to think about if you were actually, you're not just a wielder of power, but you are in some way an inventor, what do you choose to do with that, right? Like what does it mean if like the spell you create a sectum sempera, right?

And it's like meant to cut people apart. Like the voice is about control. And this was a another example in the premiere of how I liked taking a tether to something we're very familiar with and contextualizing it with these characters. Like when we see the voice used in Dune films or reading the books, there are plenty of times where we're disturbed and unsettled because it is about control. but also like we want Jessica and Paul to use it to escape a perilous circumstance, right? And you really have to like stare plainly in the face here what this is. You can you can use the voice and you can make somebody stab themselves in the throat and die. The question to me, you know, that opening, that opening note that you're citing that we're like, yeah, like let's fucking go, right?

Girl power, let's do it. had that response to it. It felt like a rallying cry. And I think for the sisterhood and the idea of the sisterhood in general, I feel that. But for me and the premiere of Valia is a character who, even if the absence of that initially and the finding of it, the discovering of it, gave her peace and like a desperation to preserve that at all costs, she's almost like exclusively villain-coded to me in the premiere. Because everything that she's saying and doing ultimately, at least so far, and maybe she will go on a journey in this respect. Like, I feel like we have now sympathetic notes for her, how she became a villain rather than like heroic notes. Because, you know, and especially I found that the moments I felt that most keenly were actually watching her own sister interact with her. The way that Tula, like, there are plenty of moments where we hear her say anybody who's going to challenge me or challenge our order. Like, it's a no, right? But that exchange with Tula, and this is after Kasha comes to them and it is afraid and needs help.

And this is like one member of their childhood quartet and sort of made this declaration, this vow to do this thing together. And then, you know, Tula says, so it's blind obedience you want. And Valiya just says, yes. You know, like that actually is all she wants. Consistence. Consistency. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's...

It's interesting to me... It's interesting to me watching... I have just like these other things that I've been watching rolling around in my brain. Mainly because I said yes to being on too many podcasts last week. But like... Um, like, uh, say nothing. Excellent FX TV show, um, that people across the border are living at the ringer. But like, um, is,

fundamentally a story of two sisters who become these like, you know, essentially freedom fighters or terrorists, soever you prefer to categorize it. And this question of like, what is the greater good here? And there, these two women are so coded similarly to those real life women, the price sisters in say nothing where you've got this like bold leader, uh, figure and then this like, like her sort of shadow by her side, which is Tula. And Tula, Olivia Williams, I love. anything she's ever done. So I'm really excited to learn more about Tula. I feel like we are kept intentionally very much in the dark about who she is inside of this episode other than like someone that Valiah can be a bit more of a human around and a bit more of herself around or someone who has had to like encrust herself in layers of hardness that maybe didn't come naturally to her in order to sort of rise at the ranks by Valias side.

It seems like I don't know the quote quote slightly nicer version of her sister. the other thing I'm thinking about I want to save this for another day my full takes on this but having just seen wicked thinking about you know this well this

this great tendency to you know whether it's wicked or Maleficent or something like that where it's just sort of like okay this is a person you think of as a villain how did they get there or you know what justifications are they telling themselves or what

actually, what actual greater good are they striving for that they feel like. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. Love you, Steve. Gets me every time. What actual greater good are they striving for that they are justifying all these like, yes, I require, you know, complete obedience because of this prophecy that tells me, and our leader who told me I am right and I am the chosen one and I will protect us against

annihilation and against this abysmal future, this reckoning, this red dust, this, you know, all of this or stuff. Yeah. And like that's very rich to me, like the idea that a character like Valia would do all of these things and justify her behavior and justify not only justify asserting control over other people, but actively demand it, insist upon it. Say it out loud to somebody standing right there with her because she thinks she's fending off a horror.

Something worse. That's motivation that we can like, latch our talents onto, the part that I think the show will have a trickier time convincing us to find heroic is the, and so a sister has to be the one on the throne. But there's time. There are five episodes left to convince us that that's the case. But do we right now, and based on, again, this connects to what I was saying, like what we were talking about earlier with what we know or don't know about Raquelah, what we know or don't know about Valia's history

and relationship to the sisterhood, why do we believe that that would be good? Why do we believe that that would be better or right? I think it's a really interesting throughline of the stories that we've been following of late, be it Agatha or Penguin, where we're like looking at characters like Agatha, Harkness, or Oz, Cobb.

And wondering if we're watching, knowing we're not, but also being tempted to believe or watching some sort of redemption arc or heroic arc or something like that, only to be reminded of the actual villainy of these characters. And so, like, this is very much on the mind of IP creators or creators in general right now is this idea of, like, not redemption, but empathy or

understanding or just sort of like a look inside the mind of the people who do these gnarly things that feel incomprehensible to us. Yeah. But when we watch what happens at the end of Agatha, what happens at the end of Penguin, and we're just sort of like, I understand how you got here. I don't agree with how you got here. But I have had these hours to spend with you to understand how you've got here. So with Balia, again, knowing that we're going to have some flashbacks. Or like with Reneera, when Reneura is making choices on House the Dragon or Alicent, like, you know, history, some history would paint them as evil queens and what the show is to. telling us is like, here are the many little moments. Now, am I convinced inside of like a six-hour embattled show that we're going to get all the nuance that this character might deserve? Maybe not.

But I think that that's, hopefully it was on their mind with something like this. Yeah. And not to jump ahead because I know we were going to talk about the lying and the way the show is interested with lying elsewhere. But what you're saying makes me think of that here because I loved. that, first of all, just idea and examination of that idea in terms of like you're saying, what is the show interested in exploring? Like, what does it mean to lie? You know, you chose the opening clip for a reason, right? I loved the lesson that Tula was giving to the acolytes,

and that's the moment where Valiah interrupts this lesson. It's time for application. You understand theory, but it's time for application. But what were we hearing and seeing in that scene? Like, humanity's greatest weapon is a lie. Human beings rely on lies to survive. We lie to our enemies. We lie to our friends, we lie to ourselves. Okay, these are all very interesting things to consider. I thought that the idea of like the lie as a source or the truth as a source of the sisterhood's power was so affirming because like you don't need necessarily wealth or strength of arms or any of these other more typical like aspects of hard power, concrete power to exert control. the idea that ultimately like understanding human nature or or understanding information and information as currency could be the source of power is so fascinating and it compels me toward the sisterhood.

But then when you see them weaponize it, you're like repelled. But then you hear a character like, Jen, identify correctly. I love the like, what is, you know, who is this man? What is the man based on the white matter and the brain from all the lying. a survivor. Like, that was a... When you talk about empathy... That is a character I'm really compelled by. Me too. Yeah, everything with Jen and Lila and what Jen was saying and doing and how Lila was clocking it in a way that other

characters weren't was... Not only very on the throne's front, like game of faces to me, but just very compelling in terms of what we might learn about both of them. So I loved that scene. To round out the Harkinans, we've... got Baron Harrow Harkinanin. Hall of Fame, instant Hall of Fame television moment. This was incredible and I'm not sure it'll be topped all season.

This was unbelievable. A low-level courtier who's got Wilfer and Whale come on his mind. The prophet is the finest in the known universe, Joanna. Has anyone let Baron Harrow Harkinen read Moby Dick chapter 94 called A Squeeze of the Hand? I think about this all the time. If you've never read Moby Dick and you think it's just a boring story about whale chasing, it is.

But it is also a story about harvesting whale come and the sailors in common cause squeezing the spermatoa together and then their hands are brushing as they're squeezing the whale sperm. It's a whole chapter in this American classic

and I really hope that Harrow Harkin has read it because I think he would love it. I think he would just love it. You're not going to treat us to a dramatic reading? Oh my God, I can't. Hold on. I will do it. There's a part that is like, iconic. Okay. Are you ready? I am. Yeah.

Sorry. Okay. Bear with. All right. Squeeze. Squeeze. squeeze all the morning long. I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it. I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me. I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget that at last it was continually squeezing their hands and looking up into their eyes sentimentally as much as to say, oh, my dear fellow beings,

why should we longer cherish any social asserties or know the slightest ill humor or envy? Come, let us squeeze hands all around. Nay, let us squeeze ourselves into each other. Let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness. So, Herman Melville. American classic. That was the script for the Nes Kieran sex scene.

When are you going to read Moby Dick? Squeeze into ours life. I hope you enjoyed that. Chapter 94, Moby Dick. Steve, it's always nice when you can select the social breakout before we're finished recording. Oh, no. Oh, God. Oh, my God, with love and respect to my American LIP professor.

Okay. Oh, man. Last but not least, I've got any Harkinen, who we don't mean in this episode, but I just need to reiterate it's played by Mark Addy. It's volleyball and Tulia Toulism. So exciting.

They did the, like, you know, next up on this season, kind of like rest of the season trailer at the end of the episode. And there he was, Bobby B. Bobby B. In flashbacks and seemingly in aged prosthetics, and I'm excited to spend all of this time with him. Great stuff.

House Rich Chese, I don't know what else I want to say that I haven't already said. A fleet that will know no equal. Dust Storms. won't hinder it. They love the color peach. There's the Duke the Duchess, a bored girl named Shan

who seems to fancy Constantine who can blame her. The Duke says shit, like, may the Richese Seed find purchase in royal wounds. Do you think he also would enjoy that chapter of Moby-Day? Probably.

Squeeze. But this declaration, this was a no for me. This is the moment the emperor was like, maybe not. The future of your royal line. Maybe not. May the Riches I see if I'd purchase in royal wounds.

So Duke Duchess and Shannon and then a crispy fried little air named Pruitt. I loved and hated this kid. And I thought the actor who played him was wonderful. Great little piece of shit. Yeah. This kid was. When Inez was like trying to be nice to him and he's like, who fucking gives a shit, eat this pomegranate and let's call it a day, shall we? My father says we don't need to speak.

Brutal. But then the way he like ran after her to thank her. And she's like, I'll gut you like a fishy, you little shit. Yeah. Not going to get a chance because he burned alive from the inside. Terrible. Okay. The acolytes, I don't know if we need to spend too much time on them. They are again, introduces Pokemon cars. We've got Lila, Theodosia, Jen, and Emmeline.

Emmeline, I do want to note, is played by the actress who plays Helen and Normal People. and any time she shows up in things I think about her and normal people. Fun fact. Wonderful show. Eiff Heinz. Her name's Eif Heins. I think I pronounce it correctly. It's a delightfully Irish name.

Her dad's Kieran Heinz. Just a fun fact about her. Okay. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Of the Kieran Heinz is Sister Emmeline.

So, yeah. Anything you want to say about these Eccullies that we haven't already said, Jen, Theodosia, Lila, they'll have their little log lines, or little elevator pitches about. their personalities. They do. I guess just the...

Bump, bump, bump, speculate about the parentage stuff with Lila. That felt like really our attention was being drawn to this question of who her family is, like in a couple different moments because we have the... I love that you're calling at the Pokemon cars. In that stretch, you know, it's established that. Lila is Tula's favorite and Valiah is very dismissive, right? Like a lamb lost in the woods and to the point where Tula like gets up and walks away and says,

you know, in time she'll grow all those hard layers that you measure worth by as I did and seems so despondent about like her own circumstance and the person that she allowed herself to be calm in her sister's image and seemed like setting up maybe wanting to protect Lila from that outcome even though she's saying out loud something different. And then of course we have the very like, even like it becomes a voiceover as we're visually taken to another scene. You know, Jen's like Jen and Lila talking. It's like, our best always catch up with us. We will find out who your family is.

So what do you think? My assumption was that she is maybe Dorotea's daughter. That's what I would say. And Durrata is called Raquel's granddaughter. Yeah, Raquel's grandma. So like there's the kind of like legitimacy from other. members of the sisterhood's perspective, we would assume, of that line. Right.

If she rises as like a challenger to Valle's rule. If that's why they've kept her lineage secret because, like, they don't want her to be a challenge to their power. So, yeah, given her lineage, like, that she would be a true empath because she's directly descended from Raquelia via Dorothea, who, as you may recall, was made to cut her own throat open. Not ideal. Not great stuff. But yeah, that's my assumption. I was raised here in the sisterhood, the Reverend Mothers. They don't always know who our parents are.

You know, and that's real Jessica is descended from the Harkin and coding. Like, I was reading through, I was doing our favorite game, which was word searching Benad Jesuit in Dune, in my digital copy of Dune to just be like, did Frank Gerva, Herbert, like, when did he sort of say who the Betta Jesuit were? And it's interesting because, like, he does it because he's a better writer than the people wrote this show. He's just sort of like, he's like presenting the Bedoucester as existing and you are meant to use context clues to understand who they are and what they do. But this idea of they don't always know where they came from is underlined when it comes to Jessica very early on.

All right. Last but not least, a one of one. Desmond Hart. My goodness. I believe, so Travis Amal again, a fan favorite of people who love Vikings, meant to invoke Duncan, Idaho and Gurney, sort of in the reports of my death were greatly exaggerated kind of way.

I also think he's styled intentionally to look a bit like Jason Momoa. Was that your takeaway as well? Definitely. Like the color of, and just the nature of his garb and like the color palette, the hair pulled back, all of that, the weathered face. But I thought it, it was like a visual Duncan, Idaho coding, but his voice, his mannerisms,

the score accompaniment was so radically distinct that it felt to me like it was meant to like, we see him, it pings Duncan, and then immediately we're on board by that. Like he's kind of oily and screaming and maybe outright evil, or maybe we're supposed to think he's evil and he's not actually,

and he clocks something that, needs to be challenged in the sisterhood. Maybe all of that is true. He clocks something that needs to be challenged and he's evil. Is he the tyrant that is alluded to in the one of the prophecies in the episode, etc. But yeah, it felt ultimately like less. He is this story's Duncan and more, oh, we wanted you to briefly think that and actually something very different is going on. I think all of the associations were meant to make, like if we're thinking about Jessica and Lato, if we're thinking about this and the other thing, it's all like a twist on that. It's all sort of like a bizarreo upside down version of that.

Like, yeah. I mean, let's think about what we assume about an Atreides and whether or not that's an assumption we should make about Kira and Atrates. You know, like, we don't know. I did think in terms of the visuals in this episode, the introduction of him with his coat swirling behind him is an all-timer visual. I thought it was incredible. It made me-

holding the cloth. Yeah. Package in his hand. Mysterious. Very Jamie Linister season one coat, my favorite TV coat of all time. But I love a coat, but that like full skirted sort of cream color swirling behind him sort of. Again, meant to invoke, similarly with Jamie, meant to invoke dashing heroism, but there's something else entirely going on, which I just really love. Yeah.

He's also speaking of associations, he's talking a lot about fear, right? Fear can be debilitating. I don't know. Is it their mind killer or not? Jody May in an interview referred to Kasha as sort of the Rasputin, the Rasputin inside of her sort of royal marriage. But if anyone is a mad monk in this scenario, it seemingly would be this guy, Desmond, Hart. Yeah. What do you make of this backstory he has where he was seemingly like eaten by a sandworm covered in scars?

Yeah. Live to tell the tale. Came out the other side, radicalized. And with these powers that have no like in the books. We've never seen anything like this in the book that's sort of like burn you from the inside sort of idea. Which is fun, like a true mystery of what is going on here. And how upset are you that this bears a close resemblance to the Book of Boba Fett origin? Sorry for our guy.

I don't mind it, though. I know it. I know it dismayes you. So what was interesting to me about this is that Desmond presents himself to the emperor, to the court, to us as the source of truth. Right? Oh, I thought the witches were supposed to know everything. They didn't tell you about this? like Nampa has such a narrow view of what is happening.

He is being handled and controlled. We know that that actually is, that's a fact. But then Desmond is like, okay, actually this is an insurgency in your allied houses. There's a huge problem going on here. I will be the one to bring this to light for you. What's fascinating about that to me is that it maybe this won't end up proving true, but it seemed to me like then we saw he lied about something, because the story that he's telling about getting eaten by shy Hulud,

here's what he says. Well, then believe this, I should not be here. The attack should have killed me, the fear I felt staring down in that abyss. You know what I prayed for then? The strength to feel nothing. I'm not 100% convinced that that doesn't align with what we see, but it felt like, it felt diff.

That is like, oh, my God, we were attacked and I was eaten and I thought I was going to die and I was terrified. What we see is him standing in a sea of thumpers, actively calling a worm. And then down on his knees, hands out wide in reverence, welcoming that moment. What's your interpretation of where that recording was? came from. So I went back to see if the color of the cloth in his hand was the same as the color of the cloth there and it's not. Yeah.

It was like a dark one, a dark cloth, like a black cloth in his hand and that was like a creamier kind of thing. So that was my first thought was like, oh, he put the patch there, but no. And also why would he do that? Because it seems like someone else wants the emperor to see this. But then I guess also, especially given the emphasis on the thinking machines, we should ask, can we trust what we see here? Can we trust what we see?

can we trust what he says? Can we trust? I mean, I think we should be thinking. But like, he's coming to the court in a swirl of legend, of mismaking. And like, especially when we think of something like the way that leads us to Paul Atreides, like this myth making is so dangerous. I think we should question everything, I think is a point. But my, but I am very curious, it's not clear.

to me who put that recording there. And I don't have a great answer for it, even in theory corner. Yeah. Because in theory, that would be someone who's trying to like undermine. But we don't, but maybe not. But I don't know of anyone who like has registered him as a threat yet. Right. You know?

Right. It could be the opposite. It could be it's someone who's trying to prop him up in the emperor's esteem. Like look what he did. I think either way, when we're going to talk about the visions in a minute, we have multiple shot. Like we have camera angles that seem to be his perspective looking off out. of the mouth of Shihalud, right?

And the little embers of fire are in there with him, and then there's this power. So, like, is that, what he says, right, I felt reborn different. I was no longer afraid, hmm, the gods are listening.

So did he ingest the water of life? Did he marinate it? Did he just, like, stew in the goop? You know? Did it pickle him? Oh, my God. Did he come out from the water of life? Dild?

A little bit of a gherkin? I love a gherkin. I love a gherkin. I don't. Okay. You don't love a gherkin? Desmond gherkin. Oh, boy.

Here's the question I have about him. I want to say this in a way that is not going to spoil the upcoming Denisville movie. I will say in, in Dunea, lore. Yes. Yeah. Sometimes people appear to return from the dead and they are not actually the person who died in the first place. That is a thing in the Herbert verse.

Yep. So that's on my mind. Okay. Let's listen. We don't have a ton of clips today, but I did think this exchange was especially fascinating between Desmond and the emperor. Do you believe in force? that extend beyond man and machine. I don't know what I believe anymore.

Or then believe this. I should not be here. That attack should have killed me. The fear I felt staring down in that abyss. You know what I prayed for then? The strength. To feel nothing. Next thing I know, I'm clawing my way out of the sand.

My lungs are screaming. And when I took my first breath, I felt reborn. Different. I was no longer afraid. The gods are listening. The gods. Religion is my wife's refuge. Just something to like bookmark for the future to think about.

Also, I just thought I would take us briefly to accent corner. I'm a little unclear what's happening here. I actually haven't gone the extra step and found interviews with Travis. He's Australian. He did play a Viking for a long time. This feels like some sort of Charlie Hunnam, like sort of melange, if you will, of accent. It feels like a little Nikolai Coaster Waldo, but without the excuse of being from like a Nordic country. So I don't really understand the choice that's being made here.

Hobbits and dragons and d.m.com if you can diagnose it. happening in this exact accent corner. Okay. Slap on your fanciest space net. It's time for a shallow dive. Let's splash around in one of the many water features of Dune, colon, prophecy. This is just like a roundup of some questions. Remaining questions.

Now we've been through like sort of the major players and the, you know, events. Did House of Atreides just enter the genetic? archive. Yeah. Curit Atrides just fucked a princess. Yeah. Uh-huh. Is that, is she pregnant?

I hate asking that question, but it's, I don't know. How are the Atradis entering the archive in one way or another? Yeah. And then did that Fremen, Babe, who we didn't talk about because we barely get to meet her in this episode, but there is a woman tending bar and she is, you know, in the recurring cast. so she is a character, not just a random fremen babe in the background. Did she seem to have a little crush on him?

I hated her costume. She deserves better. She's a beautiful woman. She deserves a better costume. If a fremine babe has a crush on an Atreides, who is consorting with a princess? Is that a little too chondy-coded? How do you feel about that?

You know, I, it, maybe. Yeah, maybe. though also I would Would we believe if those characters didn't have crushes on each other? I don't know. Fair point. And it's a rebellion on Aracus. We've already kind of touched on this in a few other places or anything you want to say about this,

sort of this idea that like the sisterhood are fomenting this, that the house is pretending that it's the friend attacking the imperial, you know, machines. Any thoughts or feelings about this? I think we covered this from the sisterhood perspective. I guess we should note that when Duke Rochese and the emperor were negotiating for final terms of the marriage pact

and Kasha was there, but also House Rochesey's Truthsayer was there, and the sisters were communicating in secret, that House Rochasey's truthseyer said, my Duke aims for Aracas. So

Pruitt might be gone, but I don't think House for Chese is in terms of the havoc that they might bring to the Emperor's pursuits this season. How do you think

peach holds up on a sandy planet? Do you think the dust of Aracus was sort of like, you know, give the vibrance of their peach aesthetic?

Presumably so. But also, maybe you have like a lot of nice natural camouflage. So camouflage doesn't help you. And shy allude, here's your foot thumping. Here's the thumps.

All right. Lying is surviving is a theme in Dune. As you mentioned, we sort of were going to come back to this. But I don't know. I think we covered this quite well. And I like this idea that like, that the origin of the Ben of Jesuit is in truth saying.

And that which then becomes whisper campaigns and manipulations and lying and propaganda. It's an interesting evolution of, of these particular lady. Yeah. If you are the one who is able to tell when other people are lying, then of course you are the one who is best able to weaponize information and deploy it in the way that

you see fit. That's like so compelling to watch. And I'm curious to see to how much of that Valia like when people, especially because we have a character like Lila who's like, you know, I grew up here right? I don't, we have, and then we have a actually like you as he's like, this is what I want.

Whether that's the right decision or not, again, we've already litigated and we'll continue to. But we have the true believers and then we have the people who maybe had no choice who just found themselves in this circumstance and what do they think about this? And like, is there an effort to challenge that? And again, we didn't really have enough time with Duritaya and her quote unquote zealots to understand their relationship to this. But we do know that they rejected the idea of use every tool. So truth saying is central, right?

That's like a core pillar, a core strand of DNA. But the way that it then guides the sisterhood, that's where it seems like there will be division. And there will continue to be division between members of this group. So, yeah, it's interesting to me because like the idea that you have to insist on unity, it's like then you can't have it, right? So I'm so curious to see which characters. And again, with Tula most of all, like I feel hopeful that you will more actively. challenge her sister and not just like

kind of subtly say or imply that she has some notes but I think I think an active switch to the other side or effort to thwart her would be interesting to watch there. And an emergency sides which is not something we like really have a clear grasp of right now

in the Benadjazzar it ranks because there's other survivors of the time when Dorothea was alive you know there are other aged ladies inside of the Ben of Desert so it'll be interesting to see. All right. The last few questions I have have to do with the nature of prophecy because this is what the show is called. It's not called Dune Cull in the Sisterhood. It's called Dune Cullin.

Prophecy. So let's talk about it. What does it do to a story about prophecy when we know the nature of the outcome of certain things? We know the Harkandans will rise to power. We know the Carinos will stay in power on the throne. We know the Ben of Desert will only become more influential than they currently are. And we know what's coming on Arachus. We know how the Trades will rise. We know all these things. And so, like, in a show, it's similar to a question we asked a lot about House of the Dragon. We know where all of this is heading. We know how long the Targaryens will stay on the throne or not. We know this, that or the other thing. We know what the Song of Ice and Fire refers to all that sort of stuff like that. So knowing whether or not a prophecy is true, no, we're going to run through the images of the prophecy in a second. And they are my favorite. crime, which is just sort of like roll obscure images that we get to puzzle over. So that's really fun. Just some agony palm around. Yeah. So is the, so the answer, keep the symbols vague enough or is the answer to something you posited a little earlier, which I was on my mind as well, which is,

are we going to be fooled into thinking this is prophecy pertaining to Paul and Jessica and the fire imagery of the jihad that Paul talks about in the book, when in fact it's actually referring to a much closer event and we'll be like, oh, we know what a song of vice fires. We know what fire is spreading across the galaxy mean. We've heard Paul talk about it. Instead, it's actually something that's happening, you know, approximately 10,000 years before Paul O'Chadies. What do you think? Yeah. In general, in terms of how well can the show work if we know a lot of the outcomes? Like, I, as you know, don't mind. I, as you know, don't mind. that I mean more directly as it pertains to prophecy though because like when you know if a prophecy

is true or not does it you know like we talk about this at house of the dragon knowing as we know that the prophecy is mostly true what Viseris believes changes the story what like if we're watching it unclear whether or not the thing he believed in was actually true you know there's like further twists the knife in that regard so yeah I think that this one so far at least isn't an kind of middle space where like because we don't know definitively if this is referring to events to come in the primary dune timeline or something a little bit closer to home in this timeline. It's harder to say. And like I think also then if the answer is it's closer to this point in the timeline and then the like the cycles repeat but with little evolutions and twists.

That's actually really interesting to me. I think ultimately the success is going to be in execution and like whether the when outcomes are known, whether the character arcs and the journeys they take and the motivations, like, is interesting enough to watch. Yeah, when the plot is maybe then less of a driver, you have to land the other stuff even more.

I think ultimately that could be more interesting, at least like for, in terms of how we like to watch stories sometimes. But it also is, I think, without question, harder to pull off. It's interesting to like trying to figure, out what this might all be building toward or leading toward, and is it some combination? Like, Tehran Arafel, this idea of this reckoning, I think we'll theorize here in a second about some of the possibilities in this show.

But like, that's also like, Arafel, that's like, that's, that's in God Emperor of Doom. So that's like even later in the timeline than Paul. So that really opens up the question of cycles and repetitions and what are we talking about and when. And, you know, the idea of a reckoning in what form. I think the in what form is maybe more specific. But the idea of a reckoning for mankind doesn't feel like something that only happens once or has an expiration date.

So that's, it's a big thing. It's like this is complex and it's a big thing to wrap your arms around in six episodes. But I think it could be interesting if you pull it off. I was going to say, we have five more hours to figure it all out. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's not very much. I know.

We cannot talk about prophecy without using the phrase self-fulfilling, one of our favorite kinds of prophecies. And we were, of course, probably both thinking about our pal Galadryl and our pal Gilgall in a Rings of Power when we got this sentence from Kasha. And what if this plan of yours causes the very thing we seek to prevent? What if we brought on the reckoning Raquelah spoke of? For the same wind. Yeah. I just love that shit. This is my favorite.

Yeah, me too. And I think yes. The interesting answer is always yes. Definitely. All right. What are the prophecies and visions that we see? We're just going to run through this imagery really quickly. We get Raquel, like the sort of Raquel Vallia prophecy first.

So she sees a dust storm, shy Hulud, consuming castles in the sand. I meant to check, are those castles like, is it the Benazerat? Palace and then, okay, that's what I thought. There's a shot at the 35-minute mark of the episode where you can clearly see on Wallach 9, like the shape of their fortress, and it's a match for that. But there's not only the presence of a sandworm,

but also all the sands that obviously are not from Wallach 9. So it feels like this mash up, right? It's a, it will swallow, and the institution of the Benazzo. It was sort of my interpretation of that. Okay. Burning flesh, which, I think is cautious. A bloodied hand dripping into water,

question mark. Bloodied steps down some stairs. A long red cloak slash dress train. Which we later, of course, see a dramatic crimson dress on Inez. But worth noting that we also see a rusty blood color dress on her mother, Natalia. The Golden Lion Throne.

We will see the shot several times. The intestine eye view of the closing mouth of shy halloid as if perhaps we're in Desmond's perspective as he gets swallowed by the worm sparks in a star field two glowing points which are like lights or eyes

and then a robotic voice that sounds very similar to the opening resonance of the two Dune films. Yes. Yes. The blue eyes made me think of Desmond and also made me think of the thinking machines. Yeah. Which we got a lot of blue-eyed

imagery there. Yeah. I agree. You mentioned the reckoning Tarant RFL Is the tyrant You know This a holy judgment Brought on by a tyrant Is that tyrant Desmond Hart?

Is it Paul Atreides? Is it something beyond Paul? Like, you know, what are we dealing with here? That is, these are the questions of the day. And then we have Casha's vision. Good stuff. After being perturbed as hell by Desmond's eyes, same, Kasha.

she hears so many spooky whispers, like all-time high for spooky whisperer on the soundtrack. And then this is what she sees. She sees her feet or let's say a sister's like booted foot, flashing back and forth with bare feet in a red skirt, which again could be Anez, could be her mother. Flashing back and forth on a sandy surface.

The red train we saw in Raquel's vision, but this time it's seemingly trailing blood. So much blood. Not great. Another Raquelah vision repeat with the golden lion throne. A maggotty pomegranate. Something rotten in the Pruitt-Nez marriage contract. With the person in red on the throne in soft focus in the background.

And again, this could be a nez or it could be in Italia. Yeah. If you look at this soft focus behind the pomegranate image. A black and white shot of Valiah on the throne. Casha's hand out in a stream of. pouring sand. Looking up, we see Innes in that red gown in a watery pool that looks like an eye. It's a, it's a, it's a thing that exists at the Benad Jeserate, uh, HQ. Um, but also looks like the mouth of shy hallood. Yep. She's screaming. Not great. Casha reaches up to anes. As

Sands pours down. Innes accuses you did this as she is swallowed into the sandworm orifice, which then drops down on Casha. The robotic voice and flashing blue lights of her. Cala's vision returns. So, I mean, it doesn't bode well. It doesn't seem great. A lot of blood, maggots, not what you want in a vision. Kasha is shaken and stays shaken to see shook until she burns to a crisp. Yeah. Boy, another Vassaris association. That guy loved a maggot. It's true. It's true. Any interpretations you're willing to make on these images here? Well, it just seems like everything is terrible and a lot of bad stuff is going to happen. The main thing I think is like you did this.

Yeah. What did Kasha do or the Ben of Desert do to bring about whatever it is that is about to devour the princess, you know? So this is like part of where the idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy feels very germane, right? Tula begs her sister, just check. Yeah. Just confirm the map. But she does. She does, but like, are we sure?

That we believe her? Well, I believe her. Also, does she know what she is meant to interpret from this? That's the part. Is she misinterpreting it? I believe she checked, but she's like, yeah. I mean, it's supposed to be. Right.

So then there are a couple interesting possibilities. Does she know that there's already perhaps not whale seed, but a tradies seed inside of. Even more potent. Even more potent. You could do a pomegranated seed. You could do a whale seed. you've got Atreides seed and the seed is strong with the Trades. The seed is strong.

That's interesting because, like, they're presumably, they're not just assessing whatever progeny awaits. It's like, what is the bloodline that got there? That's what we understand to be happening here. So if the insistence that the Richesee, that the Pruitt-I-Nez match had to happen. Yeah. And now it can't.

So maybe that's the undoing. Well, you see, please say it the correct way, which is, may the rich a seed find purchase in royal wooms. I refuse. Well, I refuse. That's the way I'll be honoring this nine-year-old child. It's by never saying that, as his father did in front of so many, so many people. But, like, yeah, so that marriage, that, obviously that union cannot happen now. But also, what did seeking that union bring about?

And some of that is maybe what happened with Giron and Nines. Some of that is Desmond arriving when he did because of the connection between what's happening on Iraqis and this particular marriage pact. It's all entwined right now. We don't totally understand how. But seeking this union has set into motion a series of events that is going to lead not only to terrible outcomes for these people, two of whom have already burned a lot. live in front of our eyes in just one episode. It looked great. I thought it was really spooky.

It did look great. Yeah. The way that also there was like the glean of sweat before the crackling of the flesh, great touch. The way they talked about in the post episode of making them all damp. They're sweating as they die. Yeah. Yeah.

What's on your mind here? Yeah. I really like that idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy. and I don't know the bait the I'm just enamored of a theory you know me like the fact that I clocked on the second time around that Italia was also wearing a red gown was like that's interesting to me and like for sure this this feeds into my final question this idea of like and I sort of touched on this earlier but like is a seemingly powerful religious fanaticism preached by Desmond heart an inspiration for the bed of Jesuit to get into the Messiah making

business. He is like arriving in the swirl of myth and fire and brinstone and all the sort of stuff like that. And like, Vali has this disdain for zealotry, but will she learn how to weaponize it? And if that's the case, you know, Paul in many ways becomes his own man but is in many ways a puppet or the idea of the Kusat Harash is to have like the ultimate puppet. Who is puppeteering Desmond Hart? That's not hope. Who is puppeteering does in heart is the question. Like, Natalia, you're my number one suspect.

This idea of like a woman, especially like inside of a story about women orchestrating from the shadows, orchestrating power from the shadows in a way that they're often not allowed to do overtly. And if we think of someone like Natalia, someone who feels like her influence in power has dwindled over time and she's frustrated at her lack of power. Does it make sense to puppeteer in some way or another? A blonde strapping man brought back from the dead here with a story to tell, and he's executing on things that she wants to have happen, but her hands are clean of it because she's operating from the shadows. That's sort of like my...

Victory is celebrated in the light, but it is one in the darkness. That's my... Opening note of the serious. But as you know, I love a Theory Corner. have an opposing theory or if you hate well if you hate theory corner I don't know what you're doing here but if you have an opposing theory hobas of dragons at email.com

any like text stuff that we might have missed I'm always curious to know if you guys have like poured over this trilogy that is sort of the loose source material for this show I certainly can't claim to be an expert in those particular books hobbs and dragons at email.com thank you to Mallory Rubin

thank you my beautiful sister Sister Hoda Bavall. Uh-huh. Thank you to Steve Allman. Johnny on the spot on the soundboard today, just the best. Truly. Thank you as well to our Juno Riguel Pau for his production work here there and everywhere. For Jomi and dinner on the social, Jomi, I'm so sorry if you have to clip me talking about whale sperm this week.

And last one at least, Alaya Zanaris on a production video work as we bring the visuals as well as the audio to you on this. podcast. We'll be back later this week when it is. Eyes o'clock somewhere here on this feed. We'll see you then. Bye.