House of R - House of R(ecommends): If You Loved These Five Stories, Here's What to Try Next

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Join Mal, Joanna, and a multitude of guests as they give you a list of recommendations to accompany all of the biggest releases of the year. If you enjoyed anything the Ringer-Verse covered this year, then you'll love these! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guests: Chris Ryan, Kim Renfro, Ben Lindbergh, Dave Gonzalez, Zach Kram Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, Every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the five. Finals with Fandul PREDICT. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. And welcome into the ringerverse. here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to King's Landing

and Numeror and Corrissan and Hawkins and Talekon, but to so many new awaiting Wonderland's end, of course, to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished reminding Steve and Arjuna, And me that whatever happens on today's pod, we made it. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson. Fun fact, though, Joanna Robinson can swim. So she's not being left behind an Arcina 5. No, no.

Oh, but we did make it to the end of the podcast slate for House of R and Ringerverse for We did. We did. But let me make one other thing clear about the podcast. this fellowship of the ringerverse. If you or Steve or Juna or Jomey or Charles or Van or Ben or anyone else that has been on the podcast can't swim, I will tow you to shore and we will get there eventually. No, no kinos left behind on this ringerverse feed.

You can't tell. We're referencing Andor a lot because that's one of many things that we're going to talk about and revisit in order to then talk about other stories that we love today because we are here for a year-end edition of House of Recommends. It's a recommendations pod, folks, but before we explain exactly how today's show is going to work, a few programming reminders, as always. Oh, yeah, yeah. You've noticed we're in the year-end swing of things. The Midnight Boys, Poo! Poo! Boo! Boo! Have, by the time you're hearing this podcast, already published their highly anticipated, eagerly awaited Midnight Mulligan's episode.

It's right there on the feed for you to enjoy. Next week, the whole Ringervers family got together for the 2022 Verses Awards. Are you listening to this and thinking, wasn't there a 2022 Verses Awards in my feed in March? Don't worry about it. That was a look back mostly at 2021. Pank to the Oscars. This is the celebration of 2022. Exactly.

Yeah. It's a flat circle, I hear. That's what I hear. Joe. Yeah. We're in the era of time travel and multiverses. Absolutely. So that will be coming next week.

And that will be the final ringerverse pod of the year. We will be back with you at the top of the year to kick things off in 2023. Joe, if people are wondering, how will I know when you all are back? How will I know what's coming in 2003? Yeah. How can our beloved listeners follow along? What a great question. I'm so glad you asked me. Listen, first and foremost, what I would recommend, and this is a recommendation's podcast, what I would recommend, there you go. Follow the pond wherever you get your podcast to subscribe, and then it'll just pop up and you'll know and you'll be there. So no sweat, okay? That's way to do it. Another way, if you are more adventurous of spirit, fine, follow us on social.

We're everywhere you want to be, like MasterCard, I suppose. And so, you know, we're on Twitter, we're on Instagram, we're on TikTok. Jomi's just like popping out the content, the memes, everything that you could want. So follow along there. Also, I just want to say, on a very personal to House of Our Note, we're still getting emails despite the fact that. that we're not like Melbagging episodes. And we got a very lovely portrait of Fiona Shaw and an eagle from someone the other day. We're getting Apple content. We're getting all kinds of year-end thank yous from folks, which is really nice.

So, you know, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. If you see a oil portrait of an Andor actress and an animal somewhere in the wild, take a photo and send it to us. Thanks. If you're an artist, maybe paint one. Sure. Okay. it's time to explain today's podcast.

Today we are gathering here at the end, not of all things, but nearing the end of this year at podcasts, for some Ring of Verse recommends action, House of Recommends, where we will be offering recommendations for other shows, films, books, albums,

albums who can say that you should try, that you should try, that you should check out if you loved a handful of stories that came out in 2022. A classic, if you loved X, try Y show. Last year, some of you listening today may remember, our colleague and pal Zach Kramm joined Ringiverse for a pod. This was in Loki season at the end of the Loki run.

And Zach did a really fun, if you loved Loki, check out these other multiverse and time travel books chat. It was a blast. We love a recommendations show. This year, we're looking at even more stories and even more types of media. And we won't be doing it alone. This is a podcast that celebrates fellowship. And today, five of our colleagues in nerddom, five of our fellows in fandom,

will be joining us. Chris Ryan. A notorious fellow of fandom, Chris Ryan. Oh, a scholar. of Spycraft? Story? Oh, scholar of Spycraft.

Love it. Yeah. See, we're amending in real time. This is all about discovery. Ben Limburg, Kim Renfro, Dave Gonzalez,

and of course, the aforementioned Zach Cram. Steve is with us or Judah's with us. It's going to be a party. Have you heard of a blots? For each of the five

2022 releases that we're going to use as prompts as launching pads here, our guest will offer a recommendation based on something, anything that feels elemental to the experience of enjoying that thing this year that you might be able to find in another tale.

Would you call it vibes? Yeah. This is a vibe. I would call it vibes. Yes. It's about the vibe. It's about the hangin. Isn't it always, Joe?

Maybe it's about just the vibe. Maybe it's about the streamer that something's on. Who knows? You can take this in any direction that's part of the fun. Let's find out together. what stories await. Folks, our first guest today

has made his mind a sunless space. He shares his dreams with ghosts. He wakes up every day to an equation he wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion. It's time to record another episode of The Watch. But before he gets back to Crankan, our beloved,

talk the throne's cook, host, Chris Ryan is back in the ringerverse to bask for one more moment in the brilliance of Andor. Chris, we missed you. Hello. How are you guys? It's good to see you again. It's so nice to be back. I thought maybe we could do like a hard 45 on the Dutton family and just kind of check in and see how we're feeling there and then we can get to Andor. Don't fucking tempt me with a good time. Oh, promises, promises. That actually sounds great. We should just do. do that pencil, pencil out of for next week, maybe, just right in the middle of the holidays.

CR, Captain Crank, pal. Mm-hmm. When it comes to spy thrillers, you are the Luton of this podcast network. You have sacrificed everything. You are the fearless leader. If somebody loved Andor, as much as you did, as much as we all did, what would you recommend that they try? I'm going to try and do my best, Oprah, my favorite things voice right now.

Okay? Yeah. And there were, I was just almost overwhelmed by this. assignment because there's a bunch of different TV, a bunch of different movies that I could recommend. But I know that this podcast is going up at the end of the week. And I don't know about you, but there's nothing better than that kind of like Christmas to New Year's time where you're basically loath to leave the house. What if I could just give you a good book? Recommendation. How about that? So I'd like to ask you to and I'd like to ask our listeners, are you looking for

a novel about a young man recruited for and then thrown into the world of espionage on behalf of a nascent resistance to a fascistic power? Would you like said guy to be seemingly ordinary, but somehow prenaturally gifted at the art of spying? Would you like said spy to have an enigmatic spy master with his own secrets? Would you like this story to span a decade and multiple romantic and exotic locations? And would you like the stakes to be nothing short of the fate of the world? I give you the 1988 novel, Alan First's Night Soldiers!

You get a 460-page book, and you get a 460-page book. This was easily, honestly, when I was thinking about this, and then I picked this book up. So, Alan First is just a guy from Long Island, who has written over a dozen novels set in the era, basically right on the eve of World War II. and they're all about ordinary people, film producers, you know, this is just a young man living in a Bulgarian village,

characters from across Europe who get drawn into the world of spying on behalf of the larger allied forces against Nazi Germany. And this book is literally Andor. It is his first novel. It was written in 1988, and a lot of spy novels, a lot of mystery novelists. you'll see sometimes the novelist's first book will be like, what if I never get to write another one?

I better make this 450 pages of every trick I know. And then he writes 15 more exactly like them, but just a little shorter. So if you like it, I have tons more recommendations. It's Allen First, F-U-R-S-T, and it's about a Bulgarian guy

named Christo Stoyanov, who's living with his family in a pretty rural part of Bulgaria in 1934, and fascists start showing up in his village and start, like, basically ruling with an iron fist. And at about the same time, a mysterious man named Antipin

shows up in that village as well. And there's an inciting incident, a traumatic inciting incident that happens at the beginning of the book that makes it so that Stoianv basically goes under Antipin's tutelage. And the book spans 10 years, goes up to 1944.

It's set in Bulgaria, Catalonia, and Paris. as well as some rest stops and some Siberian prisons. And it is absolutely wonderful. You will get completely swept away. There's long, long passages that are just about French brazzeries or about sleeping with various women and smoking Russian cigarettes in Paris apartments. Hell yeah.

But this book is, it's just Andor. It's Andor a book with real Nazis. Any Pizis? What's that? Greening greens. No. No, but there's no. droids. I guess that's the one drawback.

Well, that is devastating. They didn't have robots in 1934. But I was kind of unoverwhelmed because I was sort of thinking, oh, well, maybe the Bureau, maybe Tinker Taylor, the original, like, Alec Guinness version that you can sometimes see on YouTube, but you kind of have to buy on eBay or whatever. There's lots of different things out there that you could recommend. But like, this is, if you are looking to scratch,

the four quadrant and or itch, the only thing this book doesn't have is space, light speed travel and droids. Incredible. Any follow? What a recommendation? I'm excited. What a journey.

I have not read this. I loved the way that you held it up and showed it to us, even though this is a podcast. I feel like you are so invested in this. I just, as always, I'm inspired by your passion. I can't wait to read this. Joe, have you read this? I have not. Yeah.

I feel like there's an Allen first that I have read, but it's not that one. Well, they made either a limited series or a TV movie or something out of the Polish officer, which is one of the shorter books that he did following Night Soldiers. It's kind of called the Night Soldier series, and there's 15 books. The most recent one came out in 2019. He started writing these in 1988. And they're just every couple of years. It's just a guy likes to smoke, lives in Paris, trying to stay out of trouble,

and then something pulls him into trouble. In this case, in Night Soldiers, it's an NKVD, Soviet intelligence officer who basically recruits him. But I love the feeling of going through a long historical period across many locations, of many settings, many environments, with one POV character. And this book also does these really great tricks where first will, like, a new chapter will start.

And you're like, I don't know who this character is. Why are we spending all this time with this guy who is is going to work every day and then has like a love affair with his secretary and then you find out that this is the guy that Stoyanov is going to compromise to get something, you know what I mean? Like it's just very good at setting up

these sort of background characters and giving them a lot of depth and richness. Oh my goodness. I read the Spies of Warsaw. And did you like it? Because I did because, and this is predictable for me, BBC made a miniseries with David Tennant. So I was like, well, I'll read the book.

And I did. I really like the book. Yeah. And yeah, it's a similar, it's in that series. I love that the brossary appears to be the main character of all the books. There's one restaurant in Paris that shows up in 12, if not all of the novels. Like whether they just have lunch there one day or in this case, Stoianov winds up being a bus boy there. It's just really cool. And lots of characters from these books show up in other books.

so you'll wind up reading and then all of a sudden somebody will go and do a laundromat and it's the guy from, you know, from Dark Victory or something like that. Yeah. You love a connected universe. You love cameos from other properties

in a big IP machine. Just roll that IP up. Oh man. This is incredible. I can't wait to check this out. Did you consider, you mentioned some of the other things that you were mulling, did you consider recommending slow horses?

I did. But slow horses is glib in a way that I really like, but is glib in a way that I don't feel like is super Andor. You know what I mean? Like there's kind of always a bulletproof feeling to Slow Horses with the exception of some characters

where it's like everybody's going to kind of talk their way out of this situation and everybody. Andor like it's the reverse. I mean, I think that Andor is almost the anti-Glibe show because we know where this is going and it's not very glib. Meanwhile, Slow Horses just keeps like,

devastating me with character deaths where I'm like, surely they will. Oh, yeah. I guess since I've read those books, I'm like, oh, well. Oh, I did. Okay. Yeah. I love this. Okay. Joe, what are you recommending to fans of Andor? Yeah, well, to suck up to Chris Ryan, I decided to pick a, uh, do you want a story about a young ordinary man who was swept up into a world, but is somehow pernitually gifted to, uh, But, you know, anyway, in 1993, John LeCore ever heard of him, wrote a novel called The Night Manager. And many years later, BBC did a mini-series called The Night Manager, which then aired in the U.S. on AMC, starring Tom Hiddleston ever heard of him. This came out in 2016. And I think it was, I mean, obviously, like Tom Hittleston and Loki were a thing.

But it was before Olivia Coleman, who was also in this, was like really, really a thing here in the U.S. It was before people knew all the things Elizabeth Debicki could do. It was before people had seen White Lotus Season 2 and so knew what Tom Hollander could do. It's just got an incredible cast, like banger after banger on this cast. Really gorgeous. You want globe hopping sort of espionage. We're in Egypt. We're in Switzerland.

We're in Spain. We're in England. All over the place. Lecouré, of course, is like a icon of the genre. but I thought this was one of the best spy adaptations that has ever existed and doesn't fall apart in the end which I think a lot of spy stories and spy adaptations can when things just get too naughty and convoluted and whatever in the landing of it. The night manager just seems like strong throughout. And if you're a Hiddleston fan and you somehow never saw this, like this was Hittleston's sort of James Bond audition as what many people considered it. It's definitely the closest he's ever going to get to playing James Bond, I think, at this point.

And so that sounds fun for you. It's definitely not as gritty or, you know, as politically austere as Andor is. You know, it might have some of that glib, slow horses vibe to it. It is more James Bondian than Andor is. But I think in terms of that, ordinary man caught up in something bigger than himself, one wrong move. And I didn't mention, I ran through the castle. and I didn't mention Hugh Lorry, who's the heavy, and is very scary and very good.

So I just love this show. And I think because it aired in the U.S. on AMC, not as many people saw it as they would have maybe if it had been on HBO. Right now you can catch it on Amazon Prime. And I just think it's an excellent time to circle back if you didn't watch the Night Manager. I think Night Manager and the Little Drummer Girl miniseries

are both going to... I hope that they don't get lost to sort of the vagaries of AMC possibly not being a thing in a couple of years so that people can still see them because at the time I think for true I am a big LeCarrie reader

and sometimes the adaptations come up a little short because they can't possibly match the psychological and narrative depth of the novels. But both of those are like absolutely gangbusters

pieces of TV especially drummer girl and I love Night Manager I'm so glad you said that Joe. It's obviously like Night Manager everybody's, really tan. You know, like, everybody looks dynamite in the, in that show. And when you're reading the, reading the book, it's much more like pasty brits and, like,

grimy arms deals. But I love, I love it when people get tan on TV. So, I also love a pasty Brit, to be clear. I loved, loved Night Manager and drummer girl. Glad we talked about both. What a wonderful recommendation. This is great. I was assuming that YouTube would both go, spy thriller genre. And so I've decided to have the courage to recommend something inside of the Star Wars Super. So brave. You need me on that wall. So in all seriousness, in our collective adulation,

it is euphoria over an adoration of Andor, which we rightly are, our totes, as not only one of the best things of the year, but one of the best pieces of Star Wars ever. I think we all sincerely felt that way. And we'll continue to it as we move forward. Just want to remind people that, like, there's a lot of other great Star Wars stuff

that we could still discover for the first time, too. And one of the things that I really enjoyed discovering recently are the new canon Timothy's-on-Thron novels. So 2017's Thrawn, 2018's Thorn Alliance's, is 2019 Thrawn Treason. Bonus, if you blaze through those and love them, you could just move right on to the next design, Thron trilogy, which is the Ascendancy trilogy.

That's actually a prequel trilogy. These are all books. These are all books. But glad you asked that, because there's a larger kind of Star Wars-connected universe impetus for recommending this now, which is Thron is about to enter the live action. You heard Thron's name uttered in Mando's season two.

Thrawn's going to be part of Asoka and shows to come. This is part of the Faloni Favs Mando timeline. Speaking of watching Thron, I could certainly also recommend Rebels, Star Wars Rebels, if you haven't seen it, which not only features Thrawn, but is I think definitely something that people are interested in Andor for the early years of the budding rebel alliance. That's definitely a show that would be worth checking out.

I love Star Wars rebels. It's still one of my favorite pieces of Star Wars. So with the caveat that nothing is Andor and that the Throne novels are quite distinct in terms of the writing style from Andor, if you enjoyed Andor because it gave you a glimpse of just something new in the galaxy far, far away, like if you enjoyed time with characters

who felt like they broke archetype, I was thinking, Joe, of our chat from earlier in the Andor season with Limburg about how, like, Cyril felt like a really distinct kind of character who was a little bit atypical inside of the traditional archetypes. Like, if you love an archetype-breaking figure and somebody who, like, shows you something new in a Star Wars story, but then very quickly feels foundational to how you think about what Star Wars is

and can be thrown as a figure, I think, can give you a lot of that. The methodical, meticulous tutelage of this exacting figure who is devoted their entire life to some all-encompassing pursuit. I recommend the books more broadly, but I really would recommend getting to do a Thrawn as a character for those reasons if Andor was something that you loved.

Check them out. So, Mal. Give Star Wars a try. I'm just a pretty simple guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. How dense is it? How Star Warsian is it? I mean...

Do you think I could rock with this if I have a little bit of baked-in skepticism about the throne of it all. I'm of two minds. My inclination is to say, yes, I think so. But like with the caveat that there are going to be connections to the wider canon. Like, that's definitely a big part of the impetus for the stories is. And, you know, I mentioned Star Wars rebels, but like for that aspect of the canon at large

is like taking an event. And of course, this is how Cassie and Andor came into our lives in the first place with Rogue One, taking an event that is seminal to Star Wars or a moment in the time. that is seminal to Star Wars and moving us over, like a degree or two, to show us figures who had something to do with shaping this in a way that we didn't previously understand. So I think that, like, yes, it connects to a lot of the wider Star Wars story in a way that could feel like, oh, boy, this is a lot of new characters. I'm learning about all sorts of new mining things. So, Chris, one of the other things you loved about Andor was mining. You texted us.

And don't listen to on Wikipedia reading about mining. My guy, guess what? You're going to get to learn about mining dunium in these throne books. If you check it out, you're going to love that. it. So I don't want to get into the particulars of the plot, but like, yes, there are a lot of connections. It also, though, feels like its own sliver of the universe that I think you could just enter without necessarily worrying. Like, I wouldn't say you have to read these books feeling like, boy, I'm going to need to file all of this away so that I remember points X, Y, and Z when I see Thron in live action for the first time. It's not that. It's more like that Thrawn is such a

specific rendering inside of the story. And I think that you would feel really energized by the freshness that he brings. When do you think we will see Thrawn in live action? Asoka. Asoka. Yeah. So, fall 2023, you got a little bit of time. Read these books. Maybe listen to the audiobooks. You know what's weird?

In the beginning of the year, when they did Boba and then they did Obi-1. And I was like, I don't know what we're doing on Star Wars anymore, guys. And now, after Andor, and all the news that's kind of come out

and then just like the hints of like, the John Watts show, the Leslie Headland show, got Mandalorian coming back, Damon Lindelof's writing a movie. It's a cool time to be a Star Wars fan. Right? Like, what a turnaround in 12 months?

I never doubted Kathy Kennedy personally, but like I know a lot of people did. Never for a minute. Yeah, I had her back. I never sold the Kathy Kennedy stock. No, it's just, it's just been it, it's just goes to show you how much these things can turn around in a short period of time. We don't know yet who's playing Thrawn in live action. There is the rumor that it might be Lars Mikkelson, but we don't know.

Who voices the character on rebels. Yeah. Okay. But it should be someone with like European gravitas. is what I want in a Thron performer. Chris, Thron is an admirer of the arts. One of the things that Thron likes to assess

when learning about a culture that the empire is perhaps preparing to overrun or eliminate, is like, you know, what do people on this planet like to paint? What can I learn? And again, like, I mean this sincerely, in a way that is, like, fascinating and new that somebody inside of the empire would,

approach the work of being in the empire in a different way. I think that's the other Andor adjacency is like we talked a lot on our respective Andor pods about the ISB scenes and our time with Dedra and like the kind of different flavor and energy of seeing somebody go about the business of operating inside of Palpatine's machine.

I think that Thron, for me, seeing Throne do that has been the most rewarding version of that in Star Wars. I know what I'm doing. I'm re-watching Night Manager and I'm reading nine Thrawn novels. Or maybe just the wiki, Chris. I just started the Coromac McCarthy novel and I don't know if I'm...

I think I might be getting too dumb for it. I was just like I literally have to keep... For like reading in general? Yeah, no, I mean, I think I'm pretty... I'm still thinking I'm like sharp enough. You're a sharp guy, yeah. But... You can still read.

Yeah, I can read. Yeah. But am I as good of a reader as I? I was. Or is Cormic McCarthy just moved into like complete abstract territory is the question. I'm humble enough to think it might be me.

Okay. Yeah. But it's really abstract. I like we start, the book starts that there's a guy with flippers and I was like, he said flippers, right? And I keep having to go back two pages and be like, this is like a guy with flippers. Like we're in William Burroughs territory, right? And I just am like I'm having a hard time

you know, keeping it all straight. And then I just start looking at NBA trade rumors. This is great. Yeah, well, just, why don't you take breaks and read the Theron Winkley? I'll really get it right. I got to just get up

on my WookiePedia mining. You love Wikipedia. Chris, last thing I'll say to try to sway you. And I'm realizing this has become a recommendation specifically for you,

but also it remains a recommendation for our audience. You know who recommended these books to me? Who? Tony Gilroy? No, can you imagine if that had been the case?

Tony Gilroy. It was Beau Willemann. Russian Thrawn novels Our beloved pal and friend of the watch and friend of the ringerverse and friend of the ringer podcast network Jason Manzukas.

These are among his favorite Star Wars stories. Oh man. Yeah. So think of how happy you'll make Jason. I don't need any extra juice on this recommendation. If it comes from you,

it's certified now. But that does... You seem more excited out of I told you that than you did when I recommended them. Can I circle back to this Corny McCarthy novel? Sure.

like what we're talking about on the spot. Are you reading, you're reading Stellamaris? I'm reading the passengers. You're reading the passengers. Yeah. Can I just read this quote from Coro McCarthy in a 2009 interview? Yeah, for sure. He's been planning on writing about a woman for 50 years.

Same. Ten years later? Plus, he finally did it. Yeah. Yeah, he dropped two books this year. So, you know, maybe it's not you, Chris. Who knows? Who knows?

I think it's good. The passenger, I recommend it. But not really. You know, and I especially don't recommend it if you like Andor because that's why I'm on this podcast today. And I wouldn't want people to take it the wrong way. Alan first, F-U-R-S-T. Let's get those numbers up for him.

Love it. Love it. Thank you, Chris. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways.

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And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services. 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-fought place.

They're all jammed inside every can of Nass Energy, high-performance energy, high-performance Energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead. Crack open a can of Nas Energy and get after it. Joining us now, a longtime occupant of our hearts, but a first time visitor to the ringer verse. You've read Kim's wonderful words on Insider. You have heard Kim's brilliant insights on a cast of Kings. You have soaked up Kim's wisdom, a king of wisdom as well. In Kim's book,

the unofficial guide to Game of Thrones, folks, it's Kim Renfro. Hey. We're so excited. I'm so excited. Oh.

Kim, in perhaps a surprise to our listeners and to the three of us who are potting together right now in this very moment, we're not going to be talking about Thrones together.

You were joining us in the upside down. You were here to talk about what someone who loves Stranger Things Season 4 in 2022, as much as we all did, might want to check out next. What are you recommending?

What will Vecna enthusiasts enjoy about your opinion? Vecna enthusiasts. Oh, I think that the Vecna enthusiasts would love what I'm about to say, which is that they should listen to Beyonce's Renaissance, start to finish, multiple times.

It is the only one. way to key into the thing that I picked out of Stranger Things Season 4 that I thought was so great, which was the use of music as like not only an experience for the people watching, but for the characters themselves. And so for me, I'm bringing a music wreck to you, which might be unexpected, but here we are. Why is it this album in particular that you want to pick out, Kim? So I was really, when I was like thinking about Stranger Things 4 and like why I loved it so much. I think the Max storyline really resonated with me as I think it did with a lot of people.

And I kind of saw what she was going through as like a solid metaphor for like depression or any sort of like traumatic struggles that I think are extraordinarily relatable to the world in the last few years. And the way that they used her music listening as like a way to ground her when she was kind of like feeling isolated and then create a connection with her friends was just like, Like, beautiful. And Beyonce's Renaissance album came out shortly after part two of Stranger Things 4 dropped, like late summer. And I have never become so obsessed with an album so quickly.

And like I love another thing that like a Stranger Things connection is like the rewatchability for Stranger Things. I think like that that investment went through the roof this year when they sort of like busted open the timeline. And like I went back and I rewatched all. four seasons of Stranger Things after watching season four. And just like really soaked in the comfort and the nostalgia and like the excitement of it. And I think Beyonce's Renaissance had a similar effect on me where like it became a comfort,

but also like this healing release of energy. Like it is such a good dance record. It's a minute, it's an hour and two minutes. So you know, shorter than an episode of Stranger Things system. A third of the length of a traditional house of our podcast. Yes, it's true. It's true. So, like, really, you have no reason if you haven't.

I feel like Renaissance is one of those, like, if you know, you know, and if you don't, you don't. And that's fine. If you don't know yet how, like, addicting and, like, joyful that album is. It's like getting your own private club experience in your house where, like, put on your headphones, put on your comfiest dance outfit and just run it. Do not, do not dare shuffle this album. anyone listening. Don't do it. It was designed for like a single run-through, a binge, if you will.

And like every song transitions into the next. It's very, it is like impeccably crafted, much like a really great TV show that, you know, has consistent themes and callbacks and references and timeline blowing up. Like you can listen to it over and over again and I think discover like a new favorite song. every day if it behooves you. I think I have listened to this album every single day. I love this.

That was amazing. What a great thing. I talk to you all the time and I haven't talked to you about Beyonce. I love this. Yeah, it's kind of one of those like, and some people in my life are on the same track as me of like, oh yeah, album of the year, hands down, album of the decade, maybe we can throw that out there.

It's a little fresh, but whatever. And then there are some people who are like, oh, yeah, I haven't checked it out yet, but I've been meaning to. And so at the end of the year here, if I get a chance to like soapbox for a second, I'm going to say, listen to Renaissance. It is like healing in the way that music throughout Stranger Things

had like a very direct correlation. There's so many like great lyrics about like that are just self affirmations. Just yeah, it's an album that made me feel really good this year when I really needed that feeling. And Stranger Things did the same thing for me over the summer. Oh, I love it. Kim, what a wonderful pick. This is great.

Zekna is cowering in terror, knowing how many people are about to be inspired by new music. This is great. On the shuffle point, I love this because you just put yourself right back into the 80s. It's like you couldn't hit shuffle on your phone in the 80s. You had to just pop something into your walkman. And flip that cassette over when it's done. Totally. And there is like a decades nostalgia element to Renaissance, too, that like it's very heavy disco

R&B pop influenced, but like, as the title tells you, with like a sort of rebirth, a rehashing of it for modern day, that I think is just like incredible. And so again, Stranger Things, I think brings the 80s to you in a very like relatable, updated, engaging way. And Renaissance brings like the disco dance club into your head whenever you want to scare away Vecta. All right.

Phenomenal. Amazing pick. I love that we got music in here. Joe, what are you recommending to people who love Stranger Things? I love that Kim is bouncing off the music angle of the season. I want to bounce off the Stephen King angle and take us someplace a little darker, which is the larger Mike Flanaganverse in general on Netflix, but specifically Midnight Mass, which is emerged, is my favorite.

So Mike Flanagan, if you're unfamiliar, is sort of the go-to adapter, of Stephen King at this point. He did a great film of Gerald's game. I really loved his Doctor Sleep adaptation, and he has the rights now to do Dark Tower, which apparently he's going to try to do well, as opposed to some other folks who have done it. But when he's not directly adapting Stephen King,

he has done a series of, you know, TV shows, one a year for the last few years. There's The Haunting of Hillhouse, which is a masterpiece. Haunting a blind manner, which I quite liked. Midnight Mass, and then this year was Midnight Club. The Midnight Club was not my favorite. Haunting a blind manner is a little spotty at times too.

But I think Midnight Mass is the most closest corollary to stranger things because you get this sort of, it takes place on an island community. There is a strong horror element to it, but it's got some of that sort of satanic panic, what will a small community do when confronted with the supernatural? It's, again, a lot darker, more violent than even stranger things can get. So, you know, this is like for a mature. But there's also a lot of really interesting religious themes and ideas, some like really, really incredible performances.

Mike Flanagan almost always puts his wife, Kate Siegel, and everything he does. And she's tremendous in this. Zach Guilford of Friday Night Lights fame, Maddie Saracen. This is the best thing I think that Zach Guilford's ever done. He's tremendously good. Roel Coley's here. He's a regular as well. But Hamish Linklater, who plays the sort of priest at the center of this community, is like the standout.

And I just, I've rewatched this show back to front, I think, three different times. It's seven episodes. I think it's extraordinary. So Midnight Mass. Yeah. Joe, I haven't seen the show because I'm afraid. You're afraid of horror. And I completely support you in that.

So I wouldn't recommend this to you, Mallory, but I would recommend it to almost anyone else. What's the like if like if stranger things is like a three or four on the horror scale? What is midnight mass? Out of 10? Yeah. I don't know. Would we put stranger things that low? I can watch it and I hate horror, which is why I think like it's got to be low.

Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty far. I would say seven or eight. It gets pretty bloody, I will say. All right. And maybe like so bloody that it's almost like comical. Like that happens sometimes. It gets camp.

Yeah. maybe a little bit. But yeah, it's not, I don't, I think it's more chilling than scary. Ooh. And like, gory than gruesome, if that makes sense.

Okay. Excellent. Interesting. Interesting. But I don't think either of you should watch it, but I think someone's listening or should watch it. It's really, it's smart,

it's intensely emotional, and really tightly paste and some, yeah, just great performances. So, yeah. That's the one. where there's like a sort of like A.A. Alcoholics Anonymous, like, thread underneath. I've heard that that's like, yeah, like a really well-told iteration of that story. Yeah, and that's, that's what,

like, Zach Guilford is sort of wrapped up in that storyline. Really good stuff. Mallory, what do you got? I also have a Netflix binge coming. Boom. I'm going Netflix binge. I'm going original sci-fi universe inside of a Netflix binge. I'm going times scary and intense, but not unbearable horror. I'm going with what Kim Renfro almost picked to take people behind the curtain here for a second. I am going with Dark. And in a classic House of Our Smuggle, I will also mention 1899, the new Netflix show from the creators of Dark.

Dark is the German sci-fi spectacular that began in 2017. It aired for three seasons. I only caught up on it and watched it for the first time. Last year, I became obsessed with it. Joe, a couple months ago, asked me, did you just watch Dark for the first time? It had been like a year and a half at that point, but I was mentioning it so often for really no reason

that she assumed I had just watched it, like the prior weekend. which was a reasonable deduction based on the context. I almost don't want to say anything about dark because I don't want to give anything away, but I will just say broadly. If you love Stranger Things, and you love Stranger Things Season 4,

because mysterious things are happening in a sleepy town. If you love Stranger Things because a group of youngsters band together or split apart, often on bikes to discover something about the world and then themselves. I really cannot recommend dark highly enough. It is it is totally quite distinct from stranger things in numerous ways. It induces what I would describe, I think, fairly as an ample amount of existential angst

and dread. It is a total mind fuck. It is a real like track the theories on your cork board as you go show. But it is utterly immersive. It is so inventive and smart. It's full of twists and surprises and characters in their universe challenging convention. If you love sci-fi, if you're looking for something to just fall into so fully that you never want to leave your couch as Netflix just boots up episode after episode after episode. This is it.

Kim, as someone who also almost picked Dark, is there anything else that you want to say about why Stranger Things fans should check out Dark? Yeah, I mean, right off the bat when you watch the pilot episode, if you're a Stranger Things fan, you're going to be like, wait a second. kids in the woods on their bikes trying to find a person and there's a mysterious government building that no one really knows the true purpose of just outside this small town. They start on very similar story beats

not in a way that I think cheapens it but just you'll recognize the motifs that they're going with. And then, yeah, just like you, I don't really want to say more, but it like breaks open its story in such incredible way over, like season over season. Also, another strong one with, like, rewatchability.

I watched season three of Dark and went back and then, and I was, like, blown away by how tight the storytelling is. It is, it's like, it, like you said, you know, maybe have a notebook out and jot down some names from time to time. Oh, also, in the same way that you, don't you dare shuffle Renaissance? Don't watch Dark with the dubbing on. Right. Watch the subtitles.

I know it's, I know it's like a bit, a bit, bigger lift sometimes. You know, you can't be on your phone at the same time in reading subtitles, but like the immersion and the story is so good when you just watch it in its original German language. Don't Google anything while you're watching dark. There is one sort of helpful family tree sort of thing that exists that you can look at sort of episode by episode. So to keep yourself oriented but not spoil yourself on certain things. But like you really careful and cautious with your supplemental interneting while you're watching dark. It's very important.

Yeah. Great pick. I love it. That is my favorite Netflix wreck to give people if they like sci-fi and just haven't watched it. And I'm like, it is so worth your time. And 1890, I think for me, is like in the same boat so far, although dark, like, I don't, when you say in the same boat. The actual boat? The same steamship, if you will.

Yeah. Like, season one of 1899, I think is like, especially once, I'm just assuming everyone's going to go and watch dark after this. Because why wouldn't you with that lovely recommendation? Treat yourself. Treat yourself. And then watch season one of 1899. And like, there's a lot of faith that the creators developed within me. Yes.

They buried it there in dark. And now I'm like willing to watch whatever multi-season thing they want to try next because I was that. That impressed. For sure. Yeah. Fascinated by their minds. Okay. What a wonderful series of recommendations.

We hope that everybody checks them out and enjoys them. Kim, next time you're listening to Renaissance, I don't know, invite us for a listening party. Why not? I will. We can't silent disco. Yes. I love it. Kim Renfrew.

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor. Our next guest needs no introduction, but he's going to get one anyway. He blesses us with his Star Wars lore dives whenever we head to a galaxy far, far away. He has recently treated ringerverse listeners to some video game content, delightful love a goaddy pod. He has some thoughts on the New York Mets waiting for you and Sean Fantasy right now on the ringer.com. What a great website.

He is the Limburg of Limburg and Associates. It's Ben Limburg. Ben, welcome. That was a great introduction. I'm glad you gave me one. Thanks, buddy. You're not here to talk about Star Wars. It is a genuine twist.

Maybe the twist of the pod. I think it's fair to say it's the twist of the pod. You were here to chat about something else that we all spent a lot of time covering and enjoying this year. Hot D, House of the Dragon. So as a fan, Ben, of Hot D, as a fan of fantasy epics, as a fan of numerous other story strands inside of this that you might choose to use as your inspiration, what are you recommending to enthusiasts of the Targaryans incest who can say? You tell us. That's why you're here. Yeah, I'll spare you the jokes about these little known shows called Game of Thrones and Succession

that someone who enjoyed House of the Dragon might also enjoy. I just, I don't want to waste any time getting to my recommendation because I feel so strongly about this show. It is called The Last Kingdom. It's all on Netflix. I would really recommend it to anyone, whether they liked House of the Dragon or not. Do you watch TV? Great. You would love The Last Kingdom. But if you do like House of the Dragon or Game of Thrones, I'm even more confident in this recommendation because they all have a lot in common. So this series started in 2015, first on the BBC and then on Netflix, which acquired it after the second season. There are five seasons in total, the last of which dropped earlier this year.

There's also an upcoming movie, which has already finished filming and will come out on Netflix next year. So you still have time to binge before then. The movie is called Seven Kings Must Die. So Seven Kings, Seven Kingdoms. Come on. This comp makes itself. The show is based on this 13 book series called The show.

Saxon stories by Bernard Cornwell, who's a really great writer of historical fiction, whose books about the Napoleonic War. I read when I was a very cool kid. Yeah, Sharp. Love the Sharp books. I'm a big Sharp fan. Me too. Sean Bean on screen, Sharp.

So there's a ton of source material here, and Cornwell has finished this series. So there are no concerns about The Last Kingdom catching up and running out of runway, unlike some series I could name. And so basically it's the same. story of the unification of England by Alfred the Great and his successor in the 9th and 10th centuries and the battles between the Saxons and the Danes. And it's told through this fictional character called Utrud, who's born Saxon, but raised Dane. And so he's constantly pulled between both worlds without fully belonging to either. And he's having his loyalties tested. So sometimes he serves

Alfred, but sometimes he feels bad about it. And he's also trying to reclaim his ancestral home and exact vengeance on the side. So there are succession struggles and uneasy alliances and sex scenes and brutal battles and also time jumps, which I know is not

the best part of House of the Dragon, but which The Last Kingdom does really well. The show actually takes place over a period of about 50 years, but Utrud seems to age about five years. So it's sort of straight out of the Outlander school of like when your leads are really, really good looking, it would just be a crime to hide them.

Straight out of the Allander School, does anyone get saved by a timely hand job? One of my all-time favorite Ben Lindberg articles. Me too. But when you have someone who's like just this smoking handsome in this case, you just, you don't want to bury that beneath a bushel basket, beneath makeup and prosthetics. So he doesn't seem to age all that much,

although time passes. And I'm not the only Utrid head at the Ringer. Actually, early this year, Ringer deputy managing editor Eric Jenkins, who is not prone to sensational statements, I would say. He said on Slack, and I quote, maybe hyperbolic, but considering the similar vibes, I think it's just as good as Game of Thrones, arguably better. Wow.

Yeah, strong statement. And I'm not here to argue that. I'm just here to say that if you like one, you will probably like the other. And the quality is consistent across the entire run. It has a really strong last season and a fantastic finale. And I think one more sweetener, there are multiple male cast members. I was going to say, cast a lot of actors out of last game, right? Yeah, I strongly suspect would be of great interest to both of you, based on your feelings for the likes of.

Hot actors for sure, right? Yeah, very much from the Ian Glenn, Ewan McGregor, Timothy Oliphon at school here. So, like, the actors who play... Say no more. Yeah, I could have led with that, probably, and just drop the mic. But the actors who play Utrecht and his sidekick, Finan, Alexander Drayman, and Mark Raleigh are, I think, very strong candidates to join Joe's Cardboard Cutout Collection. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Oh, my goodness. Rareified air. I really don't know that I can. have more cardboard cuts in a moment. So the actor who plays Amin Targaryen, Ewan Mitchell, is in Last Kingdom. And I feel like there's, aren't there like a couple more hot-de actors in Las Kingdom? I think there are also some crossovers. Yeah.

So you'll see some familiar faces, certainly, which I guess is often the case with any kind of like BBC adjacent. That's fair enough. Yeah, yeah. Fantasy content. So I've just been telling people to watch this show almost since it started. So I'm just sort of opportunistically seizing my moment here. There's a lot of Viking content out there, but you just, you got to get in on The Last Kingdom. So this was just such a gimmy for me that I only briefly considered other series, like Foundation, for instance.

I think this is just such a go-to pick, although there's one more thing I will say, which is that I think you may have thought that I would recommend the King Killer Chronicle. Yeah, I'm surprised. Are you? Yeah, well, I mean, you did include a. bit in your explanation there about not wanting to recommend something that isn't finished. So I guess by that standard, I'm not. But you never miss an opportunity to remind me that you mailed me the name of the wind nine years ago and assign a friendship. I was just going to say, because this is a fantasy series by Patrick Rothfuss. And in general, I do recommend it. But just to explain why I didn't

choose it for the segment. Yeah, I mean, it's related to a formative moment in our friendship. and the date was December 2014. I had just joined the staff of Grantland full-time and been assigned to work with a wonderful editor named Mallory Rubin. I wrote about baseball. She edited sports stories. We were both so young. Yeah.

This is a Taylor Swift song lifetime ago. And for the holidays in our first full year working together, just as a token of my gratitude for her help and companionship and encouragement. I sent her a copy of the book, The Name of the Winds by Patrick Rothfis, the first volume of the King Color Chronicle, which I loved and thought she would also because I care. And I was thinking of her interests and what would make her happy. And the book went straight to her shelf or night table, I believe. And there or somewhere near there, it has stayed for the past eight years untouched by human hands. Halo rubs up against it sometimes.

I hope Halo has gotten some use out of it because he's the only one. Adam read it. Okay. Well, that's something. That's true like, all right. I didn't waste my money. But for a few years, periodically, I would say, hey, any plans to read the name of the wind? And now would say, oh, yeah, I'm totally going to get to it.

I just need to reread Harry Potter or a song of ice and fire for the 18th time. Yeah, I had pods to record, you know. Eventually, I just gave up. on getting Mal to read the book, much as I gave up on ever reading the rest of the King Killer Chronicle, which Rathfus has infamously failed to finish. Well, I told Mal that I apologize, Ben,

because rather than join your cause, I told Mal she could wait until the third book comes out to start it, right? That is wise at this point. That's the thing. Ben, I cherish, and this is a recommendations pod, But in all of our interactions, conversations, I cherish your recommendations. I cherish and value your insights.

We like a lot of the same things, a lot of the same stories. We both like baseball. We love to never leave our homes and spend all of our time and sweatpants with our pets. But I can't, I can't embark on another unfinished tail. I can't. I need to know that there's at least in it. Now, you know what? I'm going to do it.

I just, I just. This is the year. Wow. Not 2022 to be clear. But like, maybe next year. Yeah. It's going to happen. All right.

You're on record. She's going to watch. She's going to watch Dr. Who and read the king to like crying. Yeah. If it doesn't happen, I've let you down before. And if it does, what an amazing, beautiful way to end our first decade together. Yeah. It depends how many more Taylor shared and shows there are next year because that's really

cutting into our time significantly. But I'm just saying I can't help but wonder what could have happened differently because ever since you spurned my. thoughtful gift. There has been no new full-length novel in this series and all the movie and TV and video game adaptations fell apart. And I can't help but hold Mal a little bit responsible for that. Remember what I thought Ben was. I'm going to talk about King Killer? We didn't want the Lynn Manuel Miranda, King Killer Chronicle show on Showtime. Did we? Or stars? I don't know. He seems to love the series. So I didn't need Lynn to do that.

Lynn can do other things, but not that. Well, I'm just saying it basically be like sending someone a copy of a Game of Thrones in 2010 and being like, hey, check out the series. The fifth book is about to come out. There's going to be a great adaptation. And then the rest is history or not. How could you not draw some kind of connection there? That's all I'm saying. Anyway, I hope it ends and I hope you read it at some point.

That's all I'll say. It's been a beautiful decade together. Thank you for that. Joanna, what is your recommendation? Well, if you, like me, enjoy a messy royal, then I would love to recommend one of my favorite shows that exists, which is The Great. There are two seasons of it, 20 episodes total, on Hulu. It stars The Incredible El Fanning and Nicholas Holt as Catherine the Great and her failure of a husband, Emperor Peter, and Russia. and this is one of those shows where

there is a modern irreverent, it's not a stuffy period drama. This is a very modern irreverent. There's a lot of sex. There's a lot of swearing. There's a lot of violence. Like not Thrones level violence, but there's like some violence of like that.

It is just such a joyous time at a royal court where everyone is an asshole and scheming to backstab each other and sleeping with each other. I can't. Yes, they're the same thing, Mallory, and they just abound here. I cannot express you how much fun this show is. Like, El Fanning is wonderful.

But Nicholas Holt, who's like one of my all-time favorites, is just like top-tier, hilarious. Because Peter is an idiot and the absolute worst, but it's also on a journey of growth. So all of that is true. I'm like shipping to horrible people who historically it did not work out for any of these people. Spoilers. You know, this is, this is, yeah, spoilers for ancient Russian history. But the show is sort of disregarding history in season two, so I'm fine with it. And yeah, I love this show.

And again, like if you love the most, if you want someone to run up with a dagger, and hold it against the eye of someone else and to talk about things being trampled under their pretty little foot, like this, that's, that's the vibe but funnier. Yeah. In the great.

That's all. What a recommendation. I love this. Okay. I am staying in universe for my recommendation. I am recommending. Tales of Dunk and Egg. A Night of Seven Kingdoms,

this collection of novellas from George R. Martin never heard of them. The Hedge Knight. The sword, sword, the mystery night. More to come. Who can say exactly how many. The indicated number varies depending on the moment of time. And who can say when?

So here I am right back in recommending a tale that isn't finished position. Yeah, but those at least feel contained because they're like little stories and they begin and end. You know what I mean? Yes. And I think for a number of reasons. many of which are probably fairly obvious. If you enjoyed House of the Dragon, it's a great time to check out Duncan Egg,

the adventures of Sir Duncan the Tall and his squire Egg, the future King Egon the 5th. You might recall our beloved Mastor Eamon and his little moments where he would admit, Egg, egg, egg. This is the egg. Egg, egg.

Egg, I dreamed to a result. I'm just like heartbreaking. I'm about to weep. If you like Thrones, here's more Thrones, right? If you like George, here's more George. If you like the Targaryens, here's more of the Targaryen and Targaryen adjacent timeline. These novellas are set 90 years before the events of Game of Thrones. So about a century after Hot D, you're far enough away from Hot D that you don't have to worry about like, oh, what I'm reading and the tails of Dunk an Egg, is that kind of.

am I going to learn too many things about the events to come in HotD? Though, of course, anytime you dive into the wider Song of Ice and Fire textual canon, that's something that you have to be prepared for. And frankly, part of the joy. It's this wide and vast fictional universe. I invite you to join us in it. It's great. One of the things I'm really excited about revisiting these novellas,

we've talked about this a lot on our Hot Deep pod, Joe, but anything that connects to the Targaryan Dinae, who knows what? will stand out anew on the prophecy. Prophecy clue front. So I'm really excited to check that out. But Duncan Egg, one of the many spin-offs and future shows that is in development, you can get ahead. These are short, brisk, breezy reads.

There's a real spirit of adventure, gallivanting about the kingdoms. Just delightful. Check them out if you haven't. Thrones. It's great. That's basically my recommendation. and there's more of it to discover. I love did this damn prophecy, as you know.

No, but Duncan, I mean, that's a great. I mean, you didn't think too far outside of the box on this one, Mallory, but it's a great recommendation. They're stuck in the box for us to enjoy together. Yeah. Because I was thinking about how, and, you know, again, it's no surprise, but like how often during our pause we discuss the question of or received questions from people like, should I read? Fire and Blood, right? It's like we know Dunkin Egg as a development. It's really easy.

It's so much easier to catch up on Duncan Egg, so much easier than to read even fire and blood, let alone all of a song of ice and fire. So if you're considering dabbling in the books in the universe for the first time, this is a great place to start. It's a real great onramp to the wider world. This is always a bookseller trick of mine where I would like, if people were like, should I read Hemingway or should I, whatever? I'm like, try this collection of short stories.

If you like the vibe, you like the vibe. And if you don't, don't bother. So, you know. It's almost like reading The Hobbit before you dive into the Silmarillion or something, which I also love. But it's a good gateway. It's a little lower barrier entry. The Hobbit. Yeah, right.

What if you started with the Silmarillion? I mean, that would be a choice. Tough sledding. Yeah. Well, I love Dunkin Egg, too. These were great recommendations also. The Last Kingdom was a tough act to follow, I think. I don't think there's a better recommendation out there.

but I am on board with both of yours as well. Wow. Oh, my God. Ben didn't get the moment. This isn't a competition. Yeah, look. Real energy from you today. This is a shared celebration of things we love at the end of the year.

I'm bringing the Maori superhero draft energy to this recommendation segment. Well, boy. It's my lingering bitterness about you not reading the book that I gave you eight years ago. All right. One of these days, we're going to be talking about something who knows what it'll be. And I am just going to drop something on you that I could only. we know from being like 700 pages into the King Killer, and you're going to be so proud of me. And I can't wait.

It's going to be the ability to pronounce Kavos because that's a struggle. Yeah, it's a contentious topic. Yeah, it is. All right, Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for all of your wonderful appearances on the Ringervverse this year. We will see you in 2023. Thank you for having me. My pleasure.

Our next guest. has blessed your earbuds on the ringer verse before. Our next guest took you to Middle Earth on the ringer.com. What a great website this fall. Our next guest, take you to the halls of podcasting justice every week with Joanna and Neil Miller on trial by content. Follow trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Our next guest.

Who could it be? I know. is, if you haven't figured it out yet, Dave Gonzalez. Hello, House of Our listeners. You are here today because you loved rings of power, and so did we. What are you recommending to someone else out there who loved the rings of power? And what will that person or those listeners enjoy about your pick? having talked to some people who also liked rings of power or loved rings of power,

I learned that there's a great swath of why that actually was. I greatly enjoyed it because I reread the Lord of the Rings trilogy every year. I'm a big fan of textual adaptations. I also, of course, watch the extended editions, which I know Joanna does yearly as well. And there's a lot of people who have never experienced the book trilogy and sort of came to the Rings of Power as a prequel to a beloved trilogy of Peter Jackson movies. The Beloved Ones, not the other trilogy of Peter Jackson movies, which is a whole other thing. So I'm going to try to reach specifically to a group of watchers who maybe are also readers, because I think that's something the Rings of Power did well. not so much in being a straight adaptation of texts that, of course, they don't have the rights to.

So I'm not going to recommend the Simarillion or the Numenorians, which I think are great books to add context to the Rings of Power world. I'm going to talk about another series that took a literary basis and sort of colored outside of the lines of what we expected from it. And that is going to be the series Castle Rock that had two seasons on Hulu. I think that the bad robot team that produced this series with some input from Stephen King really were on to something in terms of taking the spirit of King, just like Brings of Power took the Spirit of Tolkien and imbuing it into a show that has a lot of surprises if you think you know who or what this character or situation is based on. Bad news maybe for Castle Rock.

It is not coming back. The two seasons that it had are the ones that existed. They keep trying to produce new content in the King universe. But as we all know, Warner Brothers Television, kind of a mess right now in terms of what's been picked up, what's been developed. Last I heard some of the folks behind Castle Rock were still working on developing a series called Overlook, which will be a similar thing to Castle Rock, but be focused around the book The Shining and some of the previous people who lived at the hotel, which I think is great because one of the

hanging threads of the Castle Rock series with The Two Seasons Scott was a character named Jackie Torrance, who was going to go investigate her family history in Colorado, and we never I have to go there. So I would love to see Overlook pop up somewhere like Netflix and be like a shadow continuation of this. Because as somebody who likes Stephen King books as much as he likes Tolkien books for different reasons, it's really fun to see this sort of series take on like a dark tower level amount of mythology, if that means anything to you, while keeping a character focus really tight, I feel.

even in its somewhat chaotic second season. So I'm going to say, just like Rings of Power, you're not going to get exactly what you want, but I think you're going to have a lot of fun along the way. There is an episode of Season 1 of Castle Rock called The Queen, directed by House of the Dragon director, Greg Yatainis. That is like one of the best hours of television that exists. It's a real time, you-I-mi-mi, Sissy Spaceac, Bravora,

episode of television. You could almost watch outside of context in general. I would recommend watching that episode. And then if you like it, watch the rest of Castle Rock as well. That might be a way to do it. But yeah, that's a great recommendation. And our palmark Bernardin also worked on that show. So there you go.

Yeah, it's got some power hitters. Great one. Great one. Thank you. Joanna. Where are you taking us? I am I'm bouncing off the vibe of fellowship

and being on the road for my recommendation which is Station 11 which I've talked about at length on the Prestige TV podcast feed Chris and Andy have talked about it this is a big ringer favorite it's on HBO Max

it's an adaptation of Emily St. Mandel's book and again sort of similar to Rings of Power it's a loose adaptation of a book that I really liked, but then I liked the show even better. It has, like Rings of Power, it has musical moments, it has intensive darkness

and then hope and love and friendship and, you know, bizarre bedfellows that you find at the worst, you know, at the most harrowing moments of, you know, this is sort of a post-apocalyptic scenario in Station 11. So I just, for that, it's a tough hang

I think for a lot of people and I won't say that it isn't but it is also one of the most uplifting things I've ever watched. I don't know that I've ever felt so emotionally connected to a group of characters the way that I feel to some of the characters in Station 11,

which I recommend you watch as soon as possible in case HBO Max buries it for all time. I don't know what's going to happen to it honestly and I've been trying to get like a buy a copy of it, and I can't so far. So if you know where I can get a forever mine a copy of Station 11, I just don't want it to vanish.

And maybe if everyone watching this watches on HBO Max, Zaz will be like, wow, people love that Station 11. I'm going to keep on HBO Max forever. So maybe just like play it in the background while you're doing your dishes or whatever, just to keep those numbers up, those streaming numbers up. take the traveling symphony with you always. Yes. Exactly. When I first saw you chose this, I was like, did she choose this? Choose this because if she were part of the traveling symposium,

she would be the person trying to make up what happened before the Lord of the Rings to everybody, being like, yeah, so there was some rings. And there was Sauron, but he was hot. That's, I remember that. Sarin was definitely hot. That I do know. There's actually, there's a song. Marlon was talking about how Wandering Day

was on her Spotify Rapped from Rings of Power this last year. There's a song from the Station 11 soundtrack Wandering Under the Moon that was on my Spotify Rapt this year which is just like a beautiful little travel campfire song

that they sang at a certain point in the show. Amazing. So yeah. I love that. I love that. What a pick. You know,

my Spotify Rapt is always a mix of songs from shows and movies I've watched a lot. at a given year and then like CCR and Bob Dylan every year. Joe,

what an amazing pick. You know, I'm one of the, the legions who read Station 11 during the pandemic. Wildry. That is part of my, my book club

with college pals and it seemed like a perplexing choice as we were heading in. But like you're saying about the show, it was so affirming. And,

moving and affecting. And I adored the book. I absolutely adored the show. I think this is a wonderful pick. I really hope that anybody who hasn't checked it out does for all of the reasons that you said. It's just a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful show. Speaking of wonderful shows. Yes.

Okay, I really struggled with this one. I think of all of our buckets today. The recommendation based off rings of power was the hardest one for me to figure out. Like, there were just, I mean, there are a million ways you could go with any of these, but there are really a number of different ways you could go with this. And I was thinking about recommending his dark materials because that's something that we adore so much, Joe, the Philip Pullman novels.

Yeah. And, you know, the IP of his dark materials is kind of on my mind because of the new season of the show. But in recent weeks and days, doing our year-end pods, doing our top 10 moments pods, banking the verses, which people will get to hear next week,

music came up so often in our chats. And so I started to think about, again, the music of Rings of Power, how much we love to score, how much we love the original songs. And I started thinking about Bear McCreary and Bear McCrary scores and other Bear Scores that I love

and other genre of stories in which those scores have brought so much wonder into our lives. And one of the things that I believe is that it's just never the wrong time to talk about Battlestar Galactic. again. And so that is what I'm recommending here today. Battle Star for a few different reasons. The music centric ones, the bear score that we just discussed, I think that like this is truly still to this day an iconic all-time musical accompaniment to a wonderful show. And I don't know, more broadly,

like I don't know if it was something about returning to Westeros this year, but I have just been thinking a lot about like my all-time favorite stories and how badly I want to revisit some of the and books and films that I haven't gone back to in a long time. And it's been a minute since I've rewatched all of Battlestar. And I'm, like, really craving a BSG rewatch. So I think I'm mostly just projecting here. But I do think that a lot of people would love this. If they haven't checked it out, I'm sure many people have.

If you haven't carve out the time. It is very totally distinct from Rings of Power, to be clear. But even though one is this, like, incredibly moving, earnest, sprawling fantasy epic, and one is this deeply dystopian sci-fi tale. They're both about adventure. They are both about found family

and fellowship emerging in surprising places and the way that we can use that fellowship to confront something quite daunting that is unfolding that is unfolding around us. Also, both of these top tier, will they or won't they

shipping discussion prompts. So that's my recommendation. Battlestar. I almost put both Battlestar and the expanse, like really almost made it on like almost every one of these categories. I feel like it's, as you say, it's never a bad time to recommend like any of those. So yeah.

I was also very close to the expanse, yeah. Oh, man. We have a lot of expanse heads at the ringer. I thought when you were going with the Bear Mercury thing that you were about to recommend God of War Ragnarok and I was like, because he's also in that and I've seen behind the scenes footage of him motion capturing his own hurdy-gurdy performance.

So it might be the most Barry McCrory thing. I love a hurdy-gurdy. Yeah. In the game playing it as himself. Wow. Did the put on the ball suit? I'm sure that there's a better name for the than the ball suit. The ball suit phrasing? I retract

that. It's official canon. The ball suit. You heard it here. You heard our recommendations. If you loved rings of power, check out all of the above. Have a blast. come back in 2020 for more on the Ring ofverse and trial by content. Thank you, Dave.

Bye, Dave. Thank you, ladies. It is time for the final guest of today's House of Recommends podcast. You have read his work all year long on Hot D, on baseball, on basketball, on the expanse, the works. Zach is back. As mentioned in the intro of today's pod, it was so much fun last year to chat with Zach about time travel and multiverse stories and books that you should check out if you loved Loki. If you were eager for even more reading recommendations, Zach has a wonderful column on

the ringer.com. What a great website where he is sharing a ton of recommendations and gems with you. And he is here to share some of those with us today. Zach, welcome. What an introduction. Hello. Okay, Zach, there were a lot of different stories that you were interested in using as your prompt to make a recommendation. A lot of different things that came out in 2022 that could have been your segment today. But you had a request. You had a number one on your list, and it was Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. You're so excited to share this recommendation with us. Tell us. So Wakanda Forever was not my favorite movie of the year, but the book I am going to

recommend aligned with Wakanda Forever was my favorite book series I read this year. It is the Green Bones Trilogy by Fonda Lee. Starts with the book Jade City, followed by Jade War and Jade Legacy. And this book series is awesome. I can get into a little bit more, but I think like most of the folks who talked about it on ringer pods, I thought Wakanda Forever was kind of lacking in some places, but really strong in others. And in my opinion, it did three things best. It built out a distinct set of cultures, both expanding in Wakanda and adding in Telecon. It dealt with loss and grief, obviously. And it staged a sort of philosophical argument about what a group with the monopoly on power owes to the rest of the world.

And Green Bones takes all of those pitches and blast them out of the park to extend your baseball analogy in this pod. It is a story that takes place in an isolated island nation. This is a made-up world. However, and this is important,

it's not a medieval European-inspired fantasy world like so many of the stories. We love this is an urban fantasy story in the urban fantasy subgenre, which means it's a mostly modern, world. There are phones. There are planes. But there are also these magic stones and they're not Vibranium, but they are Jade, thus the names of each book in the series. And Jade gives its holders essentially superpowers. They are stronger in fights. They can sense other people's

emotions. The kind of superpowers you might see in a Marvel story. However, they're only found on this one island nation, kind of like Vibranium is only founded Maconda and Telecon. And that means the rest of the world wants it. The story follows a group of characters who are one of the gangs that control access to Jade. This story is often inspired. This story is often compared to like a godfather kind of fantasy story because there are two gangs that control access to Jade and they're battling each other, but also

have to deal with the rest of the world. So they're internal and external problems. And it's a really incredible set of characters and with character arcs. It's an incredible plot, incredible world building, and I highly recommend it to anyone who likes fantasy stories, likes the philosophical arguments in the Black Panther series about how much do you focus on just retaining all of the jade or vibranium for yourself versus giving it to the rest of the world if it can do things like improve the lives of people outside your country but might also expose you to military conflict. Is that something you delve into or not?

And I think this series is a fantastic exploration of all of those themes. Amazing. I have not, yeah, I have not read these. I am so excited to check these out now. The last couple book recommendations, Kramm, that you made to me that I, I mean, I hope that Ben Lindbergh has stopped listening by this point in the pod after yelling at me earlier for not taking his literary recommendation to heart. But I have read the recent things that Kram has recommended to me.

Once a Future Witches, this is how you lose the time. Joe, I know you're a huge time war enthusiast also. I mean, just bangor after banger on the Kramm Reco list here. So I cannot wait. Those aren't doorstoppers. Lindberg sent you a doorstopper. Kram is recommending much more digestible books for you. Was that name of the wind?

Yeah. See, the difference is I don't recommend books to you that still have an unfinished finale of the trilogy. The point. It's the whole point. I agree. There we go. Zach.

Okay. I love this. I'm adding this to the list. I'm really excited to check this out. This is wonderful. Joe, you also, you have not read these either, right? I have not. No, I'm excited.

This is just, this is great. This is great. All right, Joe, what are you recommending to Wakanda Forever fans? Yeah, the first thing that came to mind for me was this, it's a slightly older book, but it's a book that I absolutely love, which is called Who Fears Death by Nettie Acorafor, who is a Nigerian-American author. And this was my introduction. This was recommended to me back when I used to work in a bookstore. This is recommended to me by one of my fellow booksellers. And it was my introduction to Afrofuturism, which is, you know, somewhat the genre that Black Panther and Wakanda Forever exist in.

And this particular story takes place. It's sort of like, it's a blend of sci-fi fantasy. There's magical elements, but there's also, takes place in future tech as well. follows the journey of a young woman in a fictional African village and African Civil War things that come from there I will just say as a

warning that I put on sort of midnight mask this is much more mature than Black Panther Wiconda Forever not in terms of some of the violence or some of the subject matter so like I wouldn't recommend like a kid read this necessarily there's some

kind of harrowing stuff that goes on but it's just one of the most inventive, engrossing, emotionally engrossing books I've ever read. And then I had forgotten, when I put this down, I had forgotten that the author, Nadia Corpour, had also written. She wrote Black Panther comic books for Marvel. She wrote the Shuri Comic Book in 2018. She wrote Shuri Wakanda Forever in 2020. She wrote Wakanda Forever in 2018.

So actually, I wrote this down before I remembered that. So that makes it, I guess, even more of a sort of one-to-one with Wakanda Forever. I just, Afrofuturism is such an interesting genre. And this is, I think, the best book I've ever read in that genre with the fantasy element thrown in there. So that's why I would recommend this book. That sounds great. I've read her Binty series, but I have not read Who Fears Death. Highly recommend.

What a phenomenal pick. Those were both wonderful. I am going in a completely different direction. Much to Joanna's disdemeanor. May. I am about to talk about Avatar the Way of Water for the third time this week on the Ringiverse. Though when you hear this, you only have heard two of them. There's a little tease for next week's mercies, folks. Honestly, I'm shocking myself by talking about the way of water so much. But the reason I wanted to bring it up here, Ocean Cinema.

The sea is dope. Yeah, the sea is dope. Chris Ryan talks. a Senate grant lit so many years ago and you know what, it's true. It's true. James Cameron has known that it's true for some time. If you loved being underwater, seeing Talakon, exploring an entire universe in the depths that you had not previously gotten to see, I'd love to recommend a film where you can spend literally hours, literally hours, literally hours, letting the water and, you know, some of the story, but mostly the water.

Wash over you. Go spend time with the Metcayna clan, with the Sully's, with my beloved Tolkoons, shout out Pai Khan, my favorite space whale, this side of the pergills. And if you are interested

and seeing movies set in the water. It's just really a visual splendor and a visual treat. That's my pick. Joe, have I swayed you? No. Stunned silence. Oh, boy. I just love the water.

Like James Cameron, I love the ocean. And now this movie looked astonishing. Cramm, have you seen the way of water? I have not seen the way of water. You interested in the ocean? I like the ocean. I don't know if I'll be seeing the way of water. Oh, yes.

There are dozens. dozens of us. Dozens. We might be the only ones, given how much money it's making. However... There are two of us, too. Well, there are going to be more than two recommendations in this segment because, as mentioned, Kram, you have a column where you're recommending a lot of other books that people

check out based on certain releases from 2022. So as we end today's pod, as we wrap up here, let's do a little, like, rapid-fire lightning round of some of the other things that you're eager to recommend to people. I was so glad when you told me I could do this because we all know how much. much you love a smuggle on these pods. So I know you've talked about some other 2022 nerd properties already, but a couple others that I will be referencing in my column include the boys. We all love the boys and also She-Hulk. Kind of had the same recommendation for me because it is a sort of satirical take on the superhero genre. It is called Hensch by Natalie Zeno Walshop.

and I think that this book has a stronger premise than climax, but the premise is so strong. And it also has a sequel coming out in 2023, I believe, that I'm excited for. This is about a character who is a temp worker for a supervillain. Because if you think about it, if you're a supervillain, you have to have so many employees, right? You need janitors. You need getaway drivers.

You need secretaries. They can't all be true believers in the cause. So the supervillain in this world has temp workers, the main character's a temp worker who has a bad run-in with essentially the Superman or the, you know, the homelander of this world and goes on from there. So I'd recommend Hensch. I would recommend for fans of For All Mankind, my favorite non-andor sci-fi show. If you're a fan of that Apple TV Plus series, the Lady Astronaut Series by Mary Robinette Kowal is another alternate history version of 20th century space travel. And then the last one I'll reference here

is the one that I'm most excited to tell Mal about because I know how much you love the Avatar series. I also know you do too, Joe. I've mentioned this book to you before, actually. It is The Rise of Kiyoshi by F.C. Ye, which is about, guess what? It's the Rise of Kiyoshi, one of our favorite avatars. And I'm referencing this for fans

or maybe not so much fans of the Obi-Wan series. I would consider myself in the latter category, but if you want a better example of how to explore IP prequel nostalgia, the rise of Kyoshi is awesome. Excellent for both kids and adults, probably more so than any of the other series I've referenced here so far. Of course, you probably need to be an Avatar fan to enjoy this one as well, but it's really good.

It also has like a violent streak that Avatar The Last Airbender did not, which I enjoyed as an adult. Kiyosci's a badass. Yeah, there are some gnarly deaths in this book in a way that, Aang never explores. So I would highly recommend the rise of Kiyoshi. Also, because it's more of a young adult novel than the others I have referenced, it's a pretty quick read for anyone who wants to check out Kiyoshi over the holidays.

Boy, does you and McGregor get really sweaty, cutting up meat out under the Tatooine sons in that at any point? I must have missed that part. However, I think this one is better than Obi-1, not to delve too far into my Obi-1. feelings because it both shows us some fun Easter eggs like we get a role for the Bayfong family, which obviously was very rich and powerful at the time. But also it expands the lore. There are new bending techniques we've never seen before. So I think it is additive as opposed to just nostalgic. Joe and I welcome any avatar talk on the pod here always. It's true. Yeah. Kiyoshi's also

a bisexual icon. So like, big fan. Good relationships in these books. There is a second book, which I didn't love as much, and it continues their relationship. But I think the first book is much stronger. Delightful. A wonderful series of recommendations. Zach, thank you for that. Everybody go read Zach's column on the ringer.com. What a great website.

Zach, we can't wait to chat about more book recommendations with you next year. Thanks, buddy. Happy holidays. All right, friends, we've bent our way all the way to the end of the podcast, and there's only one thing left to say. This is the stuff. final. How else can we end

our final house of our of the year? Podcasters that learn together, train together, knock each other down, pick each other up.

They will certainly form a lifelong bond. Wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you agree? Oh boy. Thank you to our dragon lords of

2022. Steve Allman for producing this episode and so many others are Juner Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode and

all of the Ringiverse and Joomi Adoneron for his work the social for this episode in all of our RV pursuits. Remember to keep the emails coming. Send them to Hobbit and Dragons at gmail.com. We will be back in the new year. Until then, happy holidays from House of R to you.

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