House of R - House of Recommends: The Minds Behind Your Favorite Shows on What to Try Next

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

The showrunners and directors behind 'Agatha All Along' (Jac Schaeffer), 'House of the Dragon' (Ryan Condal), 'Rings of Power' (Patrick McKay), and 'The Penguin' (Craig Zobel) join Jo and Mal to share their recommendations on what shows, films, and books to explore now if you're missing four of the TV shows that we loved best in 2024. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guests: Jac Schaeffer, Ryan Condal, Patrick McKay, and Craig Zobel Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Supervision: John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Save at Whole Foods Market. Hello, welcome to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, among other people, is the wonderful, the brilliant, the talented. Mallory Rubin. Hey, Mallory, how you doing? Hello, my darling.

Wonderful to be here with you today for this podcast that will feature somewhere between three and four outfit changes for both of us. I was going to say, So what you're about to see is a handful of conversations we had with some folks that we, whose work we really admired in the last year, and they were so gracious to hear at the beginning of the year when everyone's sort of like scrambling and figure things out to come on and talk to us about something they would recommend. This is a show we've done in the past, but this is the first year we've asked creatives to come on and recommend something to you, our listeners, based on

a house of our property that we really loved in 2024. And so we recorded these conversations over the course of a few days. And so you will see hair changes, hair color changes, outfit changes as we put this all together. So definitely lighting changes. So just roll with it.

It's a clip show. We're doing clip show today. But before we get into that, I do want to do some of our standard sort of business we do at the top. So I just want to say that we, House of R, are doing an ex machina

anniversary pod next week. That's right. And we're really excited about it. If you've never seen XMachina, please watch it. A masterpiece, a sci-fi masterpiece, Oscar Isaac, Donald Gleason,

Alicia Vikander, just great, sexy robot stuff. Please enjoy XMachina. and come back and listen to us talk about it next week. And then we're also doing something, a new, a new sort of idea stealing again, as we like to do from the sports worlds. We're doing IP risers and sliders next week. Do I fully understand what that is yet?

No. Will I by next week? Yes. So stay tuned for Joanna's continuing education in sports culture. Also, over the ring of reverse, the Midnight Boys are doing a Midnight Family Court Batman. Yes. Thrilled. Honored, delighted.

Surely not a controversial subject at all. Can't wait to hear what the boys have to say about that. Midnight Court never disappoints. It's true. It's really true. Also, yeah, this is our Taylor T recommendations. We're also having a larger sort of Ring ofverse recommends for the first one of 2025 where you'll hear from all of your favorite Ringervist pals about what you should be watching, reading, listening to, etc.

of. Buttonmash is covering a show that I love Mythy Quest season four is back. And this is a perfect thing for Ben to talk about. Ben and Jomey are going to be talking to that over on Buttonmash. And then the minty crew, the minted dish, is doing your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man episode one reactions. So that's a lot. That's so much. So much from us. It's so much from a ring of our best pals. How can folks keep track of all of that? It's easy. Here's what you do. You follow the pod. Brilliant. Follow House of Rar, follow the Ringervverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and Midnight Boys Beup You on Spotify and on the Ringervor's YouTube channel. So subscribe there as well. And you can follow the Ringervverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Twitter, Instagram. I guess for a few more days, TikTok.

you can see the poll results for the annual hype draft on the Instagram and Twitter, but we don't need to talk about that. Are you in second place? Yeah, I am. I am in second place, but... That feels good. You know, I'm having a little bit of the, like, silver medalist feeling. Like, when you always hear this, like, a silver medalist is more pissed off than a bronze medalist, you know?

It's like, I do see how the outcome could have been different, and that's actually slightly more. painful than like knowing I had absolutely no chance. What I recommend in the future. What I recommend the future is not even trying. Not even try to win. That's my approach. It's working really well for me. You know what?

I love that. Like five's only. It's great. It's going great. That's going great. And of course, you can send us your emails. The inbox is always open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com.

We just shared a few of the upcoming pod topics for you. just a couple pods after that. We'll be doing one of our seasonal mailbags. We've got a winter mailbag coming up. So keep the questions coming. And we look forward to hearing from you as always. Joanna, back to you in the studio. Thank you so much, Mallory. We've been joining us today. Agatha all along, showrunner, Jack Schaefer. Jack. We'll be hearing from Rings of Power, showrunner, Patrick McKay. I can. We'll be hearing from House of the Dragon, showrunner, Ryan Condal. King. And we'll be hearing from Rings of A new to the house of our, new to the pod, but we're thrilled to have him. Craig Zubble, who directed the first few episodes of The Penguin. Craig is coming on. I talked to Craig back when I was at very fair for Mary Beastown. Craig is the best, and so we're thrilled to have him here to give us some penguin adjacent recommendations.

Anything else we should talk about before? Spoiler, no spoilers. We're just sort of talking about some things to be like, not in major, significant detail in any regard. So I don't think that we should be too concerned about issuing a spoiler warning. What do you think, Mallory? Yeah. Yeah, right? I think this is a pretty spoiler safe place.

You know, we'll be explaining the connection between the recommendation and the property that inspired the recommendation. And, you know, as always, if you've listened to this pod in the past couple years when we did it with our pals at the ringer, sometimes the connection might be, oh, yeah, this is a thing about dragons. And here's a recommendation about dragons. But it might not be. It might be a completely different genre. It might be a different medium. The inspiration could be a musical note. It could be a performer.

It could be a setting. It can really be anything that inspires the recommendation. And so we will, in explaining what the inspiration was, talk a bit about, obviously, what awaits you and the new thing, but without going into enough of a level of detail that would risk spoiling the property for you. I think it's pretty safe. I will say, given the ones we've conducted so far, because we haven't finished all these conversations yet, outside of the box seems to be.

So we're the theme so far this year. So that's exciting. That's really exciting. And actually on that front, like if you're like, hey, two years ago, you guys did this pod and you did House of the Dragon and Rings of Power. You're doing them again. What's up with that? I think the thing that Joanna just said is like actually part of the excitement is we're always finding new links between the latest season or installment of a property that we love, a world that we love to visit and something that feels like it inspired it or something else that we have read or watched that feels like there's some sort of like. little or big or somewhere in between link.

And so maybe we're going to focus more on a given season or a character who is central. Maybe it's about the world and the story overall. Who knows? And also, just because you've heard from us before, doesn't mean that you've heard from the people who got to make these things. I know. So it's a very exciting, wonderful idea that Joanna had and we're really hyped that we got to figure out how to do this and bring it together. Joe, the icon, making it happen, as always. And just really awesome to hear from the people who

made some of the things that we loved best and enjoyed spending time with the most last year. Share what they think you would also love if you love the thing they made. Very cool. Exciting. Let's go now, shall we? Yeah. To our first creative recommending something for us. So, Jack, I want to start with you and ask you, if someone loved Agatha all along as as we did, what would you recommend they read or watch or experience next? So, oh my gosh. So this was so hard and I didn't know if the assignment was exactly that. Like, if you like Agatha,

watch this. I'm more approached it as like what is like a real preoccupation of mine as a creator. And so I still feel, I feel like if you liked Agatha, you would get down with this. I actually have two because they're sort of campaign pieces. Is that okay? We love us. We love a smuggle. So good. I've read to say, which stuff go! Which stuff go? Which stuff go?

Just set the mood. So my picks, there are two films. It's defending your life, the Albert Brooks film from 1961. And then a Japanese film called Afterlife from 1998. And they both take place in sort of like a way station interlude space between. between death and whatever happens next. And I think about these movies, like, at least once a week. I find them, they both have a really light touch.

Afterlife is more sort of, like, whimsical and bittersweet, and there's some melancholia in it, and it's, like, romantic. And defending your life is Albert Brooks, so it's very comedic and a tiny little bit broad, and it's very, very, right and, like, kind of New Yorker, angsty. But they both sort of, so defending your life, the premise is, is that what I do? Do I talk about what it is? Go for it.

Yeah. So defending your life is about, it's about a man who dies, and he goes to Judgment City. And Judgment City is this place where you have to defend your life to either move on to the next plane of existence, like essentially, like you ascend. or you're sent back for another go-around and, like, essentially, like, you have more to learn. And key is under the notion, like, under the impression that it's, like, how good were you, you know, like, that's how you measure a life or, like, you know, all the sort of ideas of, you know, is it wealth, is it success, like, all these different things.

And in fact, like, the movie is predicated on this notion that it's really about how you managed fear. And I think that's so beautiful and intense. And that's the thing that I think about all the time. And he meets this woman played by Merrill Street. And she, her trial is going, and it's like set up as trials. Like it's like legal, which is really like fun and recognizable. And there are all these little details. My favorite kind of world building is, is in the details.

And so while you're in Judgment City and you're defending your life, you can eat whatever you want without consequence and everything tastes great because they don't want you to stress about anything. And I'm just like, I love that. Like I just love that that's a thing. And they all wear these, like, robes that are just, like, comfy because they don't want to have to, like, they don't want them preoccupied with anything. And I, I love that. And so he, Merrill Streep is this character who her trial's going really well because in her life, she handled her fear well. Like, and I don't think it's not about, like, the message isn't be reckless.

The message is fear gets in the way of everything. And I, as I get older, I learn that lesson over and over again that, like, fear is always the time. top emotion. And if I can get under it, usually there's anger. And then if I can get under that, then there's sadness. And then if I can purge that, then I'm okay. So, yeah, so that's the end of your life. And I feel like, you know, with Agatha all along, people really responded so much to episode seven. And episode seven is so much about, you know, time and memory and what is a life and and what is the end of a life? And is there even a thing, such as an end of a life?

And so Afterlife, this other film is about a way station where people arrive after your death and they have to choose one memory that they can take with them. And so that's what I think about all the time is I'm like, oh, God, what would the memory be? It would be this one. No, it would be this one. And, and, but it, afterlife has a number of really delicious twists in it,

similar to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, where you're like, I was in with the concept, but now like this, so like, and I don't want to spoil anything, but what I will say is the main characters of afterlife are the counselors at this way station who help people decide what, what memory they're going to take forward. And those counselors are there because they couldn't choose. Oh, my God. That's good writing.

I love that. Wow. Incredible. Okay, should I stop talking? I've just been on a street, you guys. No, I love these picks. I've never seen after life. I've seen defending your life a couple times.

One thing that I love about defending your life is that like because Merrill Streep's trial is going well, because she lived the life the way she did and all these other things, her whole experience is just like so smooth. And then Albert Brooks is just so like hapless and everything is going wrong and everything is stressful and bad for him. And she's just like floating through all of this. It's really fun too. Isn't it wonderful? Especially because like I feel like even, you know, when it came out in 91, like that was an era

of like rom-coms where the the female lead was always like, well, I'm bumping into stuff and I'm having issues and I'm so angsty. I have to have a whole monologue about how I like my pie and like, you know, and I agree with you. There's something about like the whole movie is a cakewalk for Merrill Street and which is probably her life in real time. But it's it's really, it's aspirational, you know, because for me, I'm like, I'm constantly seeking balance. And that's, to me, it's like what her character seems to have, you know, is like an equilibrium. And she's like really comfortable in her skin and he is so uncomfortable. Right.

The whole movie, he's so uncomfortable. I love that. I agree with you. I think that's a really wonderful point. I was a little bit angsty myself about bringing these because I really wanted to be like, I'm bringing only female lad, female mates, in touch. And I didn't do that.

I did have a moment of panic where I was like, when I left a complete unknown, which I saw for the first time with Joanna, I was like, this is going to be my recommendation for if you like that. I thought, I was like, you know, even for me,

that might be just a touch to dad core for this particular. So you love to be on loan? I thought it was like a transcendent experience. I couldn't stop thinking about it for like three weeks after I saw it. And it led to me convincing my dad and stepmom to go to the movie theater for the first time since before COVID. Oh, that's really lovely.

Yeah, it's been nice. They demanded an emergency face time as soon as they got home from the theater to talk about it. It was great. It was very special. Very special. But I did not end up picking that. Amal and I brought, I love that your picks, even though, like, you know, there was some question about the prompt. But I love that your picks are somewhat adjacent.

And I really love when people bring, like, slightly adjacent, though I see the connective tissue picks. I think Mel and I went a little bit more obvious with ours, which is something we tend to do sometimes. So, Mal, do you want to, what are you, what's your pick? Let's do it. I think that's also part of why we like to have guests for this because then we get a really interesting mix of like, was your recommendation inspired by a theme or a performer or a location or a genre, anything. There are so many different ways we can go with it. It's part of why we've, we've decided to make it an annual tradition. It's just really fun for us. I'm like, I can't wait to do it next week, you guys.

Standing invite, as you know, you're welcome back anytime. I am going with the works of Alex E. Harrow, an author who Joanna and I really love, and we have recommended her stories before on the podcast. In fact, the first time that I read any of Alex Harrow's work was because one of our colleagues, Zach Cram, a man who has a lot of room in his heart for witches and feminist stories. Shout out Zach. recommended once a future witch is on the pod to me. And then we like love to pay it forward

and share a recommendation of a story that came into my life from someone else. It's been a lot of fun. So we've recommended that story and some others before on the pods, but it just felt even though it's come up previously, like I couldn't get it out of my mind when I was thinking of something to suggest to people who loved Agatha, to the Agatha faithful. So I'm going to talk about a couple of the specific stories, but just more broadly with Alex Harrow's work, a gorgeous writing. brilliantly realized worlds, characters who grip you, portal stories, stories about witchcraft, stories about sisterhood, stories about discovery and identity and the power that you possess and you can wield in this astonishing fashion once you just realize that it's yours.

So I think broadly, the Alex Harrow canon is something that fans of Agatha will really love. Let's start with the Once in Future Witches, which came out in 2020. And it's the top of the list. If you're looking for somewhere to start, you have to start with this. Head to New Salem. Read the story. It is about literal sisters, the Eastwood sisters, and they each have their own arc. But it is more broadly about sisterhood.

And the novel really luxuriates in the idea of this in examining the shared experience and not always in like a positive or easy way. A lot of it is about the anguish of women who once knew some sort of closeness. and then lost it. Like something happened, which we won't get into here, and it was compromised in some way, and they had to work to rediscover it. And then ultimately about how empowering it is for women to find and re-forge a connection to each other and help lift each other up. And when they fight for what's theirs, and especially when they do it together, how women can amplify each other's might. And it is just generally in a lot of different respects with the magic, with witchcraft, with relationships about rekindling.

and I loved it, and I think that people who love Agatha will really adore it. And again, the writing is just like astounding. It's so beautiful. It's one of those, like, if you're reading it on a Kindle, you're going to highlight every three lines. It's just, it's beautiful. I would also recommend the fractured fables. This is a series of novellas that deploy a modern perspective to actively play off an engaging conversation with a fairy tale that we know and love.

So a spindle splintered and a mirror mended, which, you know, came out in 21 and 22, our plays off Sleeping Beauty. And there's an element of the yellow brick road into the Witch's Road that I think Agatha fans will really love, coupled with, again, that feminist embrace of magical discovery. She has two other novels, the 10,000 doors of January, and then Starlinghouse, which is the newest novel that I actually haven't read. I don't know what's wrong with me. I have to get my shit together.

And multiple short stories, including her Hugo winning, 2000. 2018 short story, a witch's guide to escape a practical compendium of portal fantasies, which I think it's all right there in the title. You can actually just Google that title right now. This is available online to read. This is an Apex magazine, so you can read it on Apex Book Company. It is so delightful and inventive and whimsical and profound. It also contains some of the most gorgeously gripping descriptions of something that Joanna and I love, which is to borrow a Last of Us isom that has made its way into the the pod, yearning tendrils, the yearning tendril of being a fantasy reader, somebody who is

looking to make their way into a new world and explore. So Alex Harrow, if you loved Agatha, cannot recommend her writing highly enough. I love that. A classic Mallory recommendation of like, let me smuggle, you know, 10 separate things in here. I love you. Just following Jack's example. I know. I feel like I undershot it now. No, no. You crushed it. Ten thousand doors of January is definitely my favorite. Once a Future Witches is so good. The thing I know about Alex Harrow, she has so many inventive premises, but to Mallory's point about the quality of her writing, you just know you're in an Alex Harrow story, even though the characters don't feel the same, the premise doesn't feel the same, but the prose is so elevated and transportive that you're

just sort of like, ah, this is what it feels like to read an Alex Harrow book. I'm back. Here we go. So my I don't want to I want to keep you too long jack but I am also I so here's here's my process Mallory told me what she was doing and then I just started stood in front of my bookcases and started pacing back and forth and I went which stuff go which stuff go like genuinely I was mumbling which stuff go in front of the bookcase and I was like what am I because I was really nervous that I was just going to come on and say talk about the musical into the woods which I just mentioned a million times when we were talking about Agatha along so I feel like That recommendation already exists for me.

I mentioned it on like every ag at the pod. So I was like, I want to pick a book. Everyone who's watching on video just saw your black cat walk. Yeah, your best afraid. As you were repeating which stuff go out loud. It's just a sensational moment in the history of House of Mark. It's really good. I was like, did I do that with my mind?

She's always here, honestly. She's always nearby. Love bug. Bug's the best. But I'm going to recommend the magician's daughter by H.G. G. Perry. This just came out a couple years ago, and I picked this book before I realized that there was an Alex Harrow poll quote on the cover. So Alex Harrow, Mallory's author, recommends this book. And this book, so there are magicians, there's magic in this world. But actually, the main reason I picked it, it's about a young, a teenage girl named Biddy who is washes up ashore on an island when she's a baby and is adopted by this magician and his rabbit familiar. named Hutch, and as rabbit familiar, is occasionally a man, but more often, occasionally human, but more often a rabbit. So, of course, yes, rabbit stuff makes me think of Agatha, obviously. But she grows upon this island and she's completely isolated there until she's about 17 and doesn't know anything of the world but has access to all these books. It's set in 1912.

So every time she sort of tries to puzzle out a problem because eventually she leaves the island, has to sort of track what happens. to her guardian has to track what's happening to magic in this world, she does it through the lens of a book she read. So she's like, what would Elizabeth Bennett do? Or what would this person do? So the way in which teens love of pop culture influence the journey that we go on in Agatha and reminded Mallory me so much of the way that we talk about story, via other stories we love, her journey through this adventure really made me think about that. And the book is really unusual to me. I read a lot of modern sci-fi and fantasy,

but this is the kind of book that feels like it was written. It's set in 1912, and it almost feels like it was written in 1912. It's a much, like, sort of slower. It reminded me of, like, the secret garden or a little princess. You know, it's not like a children's book. It's, you know, adultish way, dark stuff happens in it. But it's just sort of, like, feels like it was written in a different time with a different set of,

language available to the author. So I just really loved this experience. It feels like you feel like you're reading something that's already been a classic for a long time as sort of how I felt reading this book. So that is my recommendation. But as pop culture obsessed podcasters, I think seeing the world through the various books you've read is just incredibly relatable to me. So yeah. I love that.

Great bit. That it was sort of like the various filters. I'm like incapable of of not doing that in my work, which when I was younger, I was like, oh, I like I must be original. Like everything I do has to be like completely its own thing. And the older I got, I'm like, no, it's all like just all of it, bring it all in. And then we all speak this language. And I feel like that never before have people been so dialed in to that.

I mean, I don't know. I'm now I'm just sounding crazy. But I do feel like the sort of. the type of fandom of our era is so specific. It's, yeah, I'm going to stop because I'm about to say some really dumb stuff. But I love that that was your approach, Joe. That's really, that's really great. I mean, I think this is why I say sometimes I like to say the monoculture is good, actually,

because I think it is important that we all, you know, it's important that we have our own unique sort of niche stories that no one else knows about that. We just know about that's important. But it's also important that we have shared story language. at least important to me. And so I like to be able to quote things and have people know what I'm quoting or, you know, as we watch Agatha, we get to sort of think about the 80s horror influence or whatever else might be influencing. And that's just fun to me because it's like, you know this. You know this story. I'm going to tell you how this story is helping me tell this story. I love that about your show so much. Thank you. That's really lovely. I mean, I'm glad.

Thank you for validating it because I'm like, it is weirdly biblical. Like, that's how I feel is I'm like, I am not entrenched personally in any religion, and I don't feel that pop culture is my religion, but I do feel like it is a language, and it is something that it is like a massive text that I am constantly turning the pages of in concert with like-minded people, and it's so satisfying and thrilling, and like, and it enhances my time on the planet. Yeah, so, yeah. I think there's a reason that Joe and I quote the Sam Frodo were in the same tale still line, maybe more than anything else.

It's like a sacred idea to us. I literally almost put it in the show notes for a Star Wars TV show thing we're doing today. It's very on my mind for the skeleton group finale. I literally almost put that line, but I did put another Tolkien line in the nose there. But like I think that I have no skill for writing dialogue, so I never like, dreamed of being a TV writer, but I have always dreamed of being in a TV writer's room, because the writer's room just filled with people who grew up on story and have those references and have their own special things they bring to the table, but also the shared or like,

you should watch this, no, you should watch this, no, you should read this as you put another story together. That's always been something that I'm like, oh, to be on the fly a fly in the wall of like any given writer's room, I would love it. So it's so much fun. I mean, in the right writer's room, that part of it is so exciting. And Megan McDonald, every time I recommend something to her, she puts it in her little journal. And then weeks later, I'll be like, did you watch it?

And she's like, no. Like, shame. But I'm like, that list is fire. Like, share the Megan journal list. I want to see it. I said it to me. It's wrong.

Because I'm always after her because she's young. And I'm like, ugh. How does it compare lengthwise to like Captain America? has no book that he's, you know, filling up after he wakes up, like Star Wars. Yeah. He's just like that. I mean, just exactly. So similar.

Thank you so much for Jack. My pleasure. I feel like I missed the assignment. I want to do it like six times. Not at all. I don't know. It was perfect. I think you absolutely crushed it.

And I think, go ahead. Oh, just like, I'm like, also everyone who like Dagatha go see, neverding story, dark crystal and labyrinth always. Like, don't, don't sleep on the trifections. Yes, the perfect trifecta. Did you see that they're potentially remaking Labyrinth and I'm like, no, thank you? Yeah. Oh, never mind.

No, no, I have nothing to do with it. That was me starting to talk and then being like, wait, no, I'm a participant in this industry and I should keep my mouth shut. Okay. Fair. Thank you, Jack. We really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I love seeing you both.

I love seeing you both. And I haven't been listening to Skeleton crew. My neighbor is, I mean, in your podcast vis-a-vis skeleton crew, because I'm so behind. But my neighbor, the sunshines, obsessed with your analysis. Our pals. They're like, you think they did good work on Agatha. You got to hear what they're doing the Skeleton Crew. So I'm fortunate to getting in on that.

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your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbounds.lily.com. So Ryan Connell, show in our house of the dragon. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. What would you recommend? Hi, hi, hi. What would you recommend to our listeners who loved House of the Dragon season two, what should they watch or listen or read? It's a funny touchstone that I always give to our directors

and to people that are trying to craft the visual look of the show. And this actually goes back to season one, but I think it became particularly relevant in season two. There's this wonderful movie on Netflix. It was Netflix original. called the king, which sort of kind of came and went back when it felt like maybe they were a little bit more serious about making serious movies. And it's this, David Mischot is the director, young Timothy Chalene, younger to Mithee Chalamee, playing King Hal, Joel Edgerton, who's a producer and also, I believe, one of the screenwriters in the movie, a young Tom Glenn Carney as Hotspur, Egon-Egon Targaryen. but it's just so beautifully written, composed, shot, and the portrayal of medieval combat

is just spot on in terms of the brutality of it, the helplessness of it, and also what it means to be fighting in heavy plate armor in mud and in rain, and what happens to the body when those things happen. Robert Pattinson is in the movie playing a Frenchman, very convincingly. It's just highly enjoyable, and I rewatch it probably once a year because every time I do, there's something new that I kind of pull from it that is interesting in terms of just in the way that they photographed the movie. And to me, it feels like it's one of those that just transport you away to medieval time. So really enjoy that. And then I'm going to be boring with books, but I did this this year in terms of a reading myself for a rewatch of Dune 1 going into Dune 2.

But like, read Dune. Don't just watch the movies. Read Dune. The book is amazing. I remember somebody pitching it hilariously to back to the studios when they were trying to convince everybody that this was a good thing to remake or a good thing to make again. It's Game of Thrones in space, which really that's exactly what it is. But you could say Game of Thrones is Dune in medieval times. But it's awesome.

And then Dune Messiah, which to me is like the fire and blood where it's a little left field and it's strong. stranger and definitely much harder to adapt than the original. But as hard as the original book is Dune Messiah, which I read right after the movie came out when they were talking about making Dune Messiah. And I was, I loved it. And then I got a headache thinking about how do you actually adapt that? I don't. I've spent a lot of time contemplating whether the masses are prepared for Dunei to be adapted. But I didn't you feel new if that's going to be incredible.

I have a lot of questions. Great recommendations. I feel like you're the number one, the King fan. And I love that for you. Like, I think that's great. As soon as you said it, I got so excited because as listeners this podcast know, I love when Robert Pattinson makes an accent choice. And like the Dauphin, like French accent that he does in the King is absolutely legendary.

So it's a wonderful pick. I love it. Fantastic. Great one. Mallurban. Okay. I'm sticking with my theme for this episode of our podcast. which is recency bias. I am going with Intermetso, the latest Rooney that came out at the end of

2004, fall of 2024. I just read this a few weeks ago with my college pals, keeping our Zoom book club going, going strong a few years deep now. And as all of the chess enthusiasts who are listening to this podcast know, and as I learned when I googled this, Intermezzo and chess refers to the in-between move, right? You're not going to. You're not going. immediately for the expected thing. You do the unexpected thing in an effort to destabilize your opponent. Very dancey to me. And in general, of course, it might seem like a surprise that I am not going with a fantasy

pick here, but I am going with a story that is about. And I won't get into deep intermizo spoilers since this book only came out a few months ago. But familial strife. These stories are quite different in a number of respects, but at their core, there is a sibling versus sibling family torn apart to take. family torn asunder aspect that I keep thinking about. And when I was reading this book, I had House of the Dragon on my mind quite a bit, right down to the looming specter of a dead father and the way that everybody's lives

completely unravel in the wake of the uncertainty about what they meant to him. What the world expects of you versus what you maybe want for yourself. These are very central in both of these stories. and particularly like the aspect of how the people who are theoretically closest to you and should understand you the best, support you the most, be able to tap into the deepest level of empathy for you are often actually the people who you consider the biggest barriers, the biggest impediments to you achieving some level of contentment or fulfillment. Even though we're thinking about season two specifically, I will concede that the Ivan Peter

dynamic in the book, it's much more. much more Damon Viseris than it is Reneira Egon, certainly. But I still think it applies more broadly. And generally, you know, both of these stories, both of these tales are very interested in examining human nature and what drives people to do the things they do. And I think have a ability in the writing in particular to just sum up something essential about human nature more broadly and like specifically about our tendency towards stubborn. Like our tendency to just dig in our heels and resent the people around us. Sin begets sin, which was something that Joe and I talked about literally for hours on end when covering season two, that's a line that would feel right at home in Intermet.

So there is also a character in the book in her late 30s who is enjoying a sexual awakening after her marriage ends. And I won't comment on whether I'm mentioning that because it's interesting to me or because I think it would be interesting to Alice in Ty. Tower. I'll leave that up to our listeners. That's my pick. Amazing. Very good.

Amazing pick. I'm going to, like Ryan, I have picked a Netflix offering that I rewatch every year. And it is a, I told Mallory that I was looking for something spooky, ukey, dreamy, because that's sort of the Damon trapped in a haunted house dream space was my favorite stuff this season. And so I'm going with The Haunting of Hill House, which is Mike Flanagan's adaptation of the Shirley Jackson novel. And I rewatch it every Halloween. I love to live in the Flanaganverse when it comes to Halloween time. And this is a story if folks haven't seen it about the Crane family and they move into a really haunted house. And the ghosts that are there

are representative of their familial trauma as well. And we are flashing back and forth between the children and their experience living there and the adults dealing with the trauma that they experienced as children living in a literal haunted house and how it pulled their family apart and all the things that came from it. And this idea of one of the best episodes of the season deals with a character who is sort of trapped in a haunted dream space and can't really tell. a difference between waking and dreaming life and to her detriment in the end. No spoilers, but bad things happen to these people in this show. It is a scary show. Mallory will not be watching.

Too much. I can't handle it. I'm sorry. But it's also just like one that I cry through as well because the family stuff is so moving. And so I'm terrified. I'm crying. And that's all you want from watching House of the Dragon as well. So, you know, that would be, that would be, I mean, I think a lot of people have watched this, but I think it's always worth rewatching. It's like, I find something new every single time when I rewatch that, that little miniseries. So, onto you, Philhouse. It's my recommendation. Terrified and crying is so often where I find myself in House of the Dragon as well, guys. Sounds right. Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you, Ryan. Anything else you want to, anything else that comes to you? There was one that I actually thought of for the list that was potentially more

interesting than just saying Dune. But it was just a little, it's on piece. But there's this historical fiction author, Bernard Cornwell, who wrote the Sharp Saga and all that. He wrote this great retelling of the Arthurian saga called, I don't know what he called the saga.

The first book is The Winter King. And it's really, I read this 20 years ago, but in terms of taking a myth and turning it on its ear and demythologize, And so it's Arthur without any magic. And it's Arthur in the Dark Ages, sort of post-Roman Empire before the high mental ages. And he takes each character and sort of spins them in a way that you, like you, so you, that you don't see coming and you don't expect and makes the most interesting version out of the, out of the legend.

And Highwall is the lead character. So it's not told through the POV of a classic Arthurian character. It's another guy that's sort of in with Arthur and all that. Yeah. But it's a trilogy. I think it's, I've read a lot of Cornwall stuff. And I think this is actually, I think this is the best thing that he's written. And it's from, I don't know, it's from like late 90s sort of era.

But highly, highly recommended. And it's all the politics, court intrigue, betrayals, backstabings, battles, all the stuff. It's very thronesy, obviously. And doesn't pull back. It's got, you know, sex and violence and all that. Less more Game of Thrones than House of the Dragon probably just in terms of the scope of the saga. But very good and highly recommend it. So there you go.

I love that. Fantastic. I'm a big sharp fan, which is, what was my introduction to Sean Bean? So that all brings us back to Thrones. So there you go. Love it. You spoiled us with an extra pick, so we're thrilled. And that's a great one.

But just to be clear, there's never anything wrong with just saying Dune on House of Art. That's fair. Correct. That's fair, fair. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, Ryan. Thanks so much for doing this.

We really appreciate it. You got it, guys. Thank you. Always good to see you. Great to see you. Thank you. Joining us next, it's Patrick McKay, the co-show runner of Rings of Power. Patrick McKay, what is your recommendation for our listeners who loved Rings of Power?

Okay, so I took this assignment very seriously. Yes. First of all, disclaimer, should say, you should say, you know, I'm not comparing from where I sit rings of power specifically to what I'm going to recommend. I'm really thinking of it in terms of if you love Lord the Rings on screen, and hopefully if you love the show, maybe this is something that you have not seen, but would also maybe love. Not comparing the show to this particular thing.

So, Jady and I love Steven Spielberg, unabashed. die for, you know, all the way. And I actually think his best movie is a little bit underseen in his filmography. So recommending Empire of the Sun. Yes. I was hoping you were going to. When you said Spielberg, I was like, let it be Empire of the Sun. Okay, tell us why.

Well, I couldn't recommend Battlestar Galactica because Mallory did it two years ago. We never run out of opportunities to recommend Battle of. Star. You're always welcome to recommend Battlestar. Battle Star is great. Love it, love it. So Empire of the Sun, you know, for people who either haven't seen it or don't know it, it's based on a J.G. Ballard book that is, you know, more or less autobiographical. And it is the story of a British adolescent boy or pre-adolescent, like a kid who ends up getting stranded in the Japanese invasion of Shanghai in World War II. And the film is stars Christian Bale in one of the all-time great child actor performances.

I think he was 12, 11, 12, and he's absolutely spectacular. Haley Jollah Osman, get in line. He's so great. And what's really interesting about this movie, which it has epic, epic scope, battles and set pieces-esque kinds of things. But it also is incredibly, you know, intimate and, you know, big-hearted, the way that I sort of like to think Tolkien and adaptations of Tolkien, you know, are. It has that sweep and that scope, but also that intimacy and that innocence about it while still being about big, you know, grown-up things. And for Spielberg, I think it comes in a really interesting place in his career.

He's coming off of, you know, the greatest all-time run of Jaws, Close Encounters, Raiders, E.T. He sort of has all the resources of, you know, the studio system of that era and he's making his version of a David Lean movie. I love this. The thematically, it's very much about you know, yeah, yeah. It also has a lot of great music in it.

You know, it's John Williams. There's singing in Welsh happening. There's a great cast, Miranda Richardson, John Malkovich, Joe Pantiliano. You know, so I think it has a lot of things that people love about Lord of the Rings, where it's sort of, you know, almost a childlike view of war and big challenging themes and ideas.

Also, Tom Stoppard wrote it. It's this great script. And then, you know, Spielberg was so happy with working with him that he brought him on to what became Last Crusade. And a lot of the dialogue in that film, a lot of the, you know, Connery Ford banter was Tom Stoppard. So there's a sequence of the beginning of this movie, which I saw when I was like a kid. kid that forever scared me. It's right at the beginning when Christian Bale sort of loses his parents in the crowd. And it made me scared through all my childhood that I would lose my parents in the crowd. And then I watched the film in my early 20s again. And right around that scene, Christian Bail is running around.

It's like perfect English schoolboy. And he's just like, he goes, help me, I'm British, which is just like so funny. And so my friends and I say that all the time We always go, help me, I'm British. But yeah, that's a beautiful movie. And then I rewatched it again a couple years ago. And I really agree that it's a wildly underrated Spielberg movie. It was kind of panned at the time.

People thought he was making this sort of naked Oscar grab and all this sort of stuff. But like, Malkovich is amazing. It's incredible. What a great recommendation. Love it. We knew you would crush it, Patrick. Oh, thank you. No surprises.

One prize is all I can say. How about you guys? What are you guys recommending this time? Okay. I am, as I've been texting Joanna about in general across our podcast recently, really trapped in a recency bias moment. I don't know how much that has to do with like the state of the world. And I'm just like, this was a thing I watched recently and really enjoyed. Love a holiday catch up. I typically spend December and January wondering how. the Ravens will disappoint me in the playoffs right on cue and then try to catch up on television over the holidays and as many movies as I can before the Oscars. So one of the things that I watched over December was Ripley. Netflix is Ripley. Now, this is not a fantasy show, but there are a few different reasons that it feels like a Rings of Power season two,

specifically, recommendation to me. So if you loved Rings of Rings of Power season two, and you haven't yet watched Ripley, you should. Here's why. Okay, a few quick things before we get to the main, the meat, the thrust of the recommendation. First of all, visually astonishing. This is a stunningly beautiful show, and of course Rings of Power is the best-looking show on TV. So if you love these like majestic takeovers of your big screen, you got to watch Ripley. Second, great writing, great acting, just very memorable, arresting performances and riveting exchanges that have you hanging on every word and every little bit of intonation and the delivery, that feels like a nice comp to me.

Third, it's an adaptation. So if you watch it, much like if you watch Rings of Power, and you're like, boy, what an interesting, clever examination and exploration of something where I know there is more source text awaiting? Great news. You're able to fall deeper into the world, right? That's something that the bad babies, the listeners of this podcast always enjoy. Is there a book waiting for me that I can check out?

Is there another movie waiting for me that I can check out? Great news, yes. But here's the real reason. It'll shock everyone to hear that this is about Sauron. Even though when Joe and I did our top 10 moments of the year pod, another favorite pod of ours every year. We have so many wonderful annual traditions, Joanna. I love you.

Love you. When we did our top 10 moments and I gave my rings of power pick from last year, I said that the durians were like the lasting image of the season to me. Like that moment with Papa Dee and Sunny D was the thing that I found popping into my mind instantly when I thought about the season. But when I think overall about the heart and heft of the season and the themes of the season, the saron emphasis is of course what stands out to me, the saron heavy focus of season two. And so how could I not encourage people to spend more time with another great deceiver, Tom Ripley? If you love to watch a deceiver at work, if you love to watch a great improviser.

Like this was something really on my mind when I was watching Ripley. I kept thinking back to all of the discussions that we had on the pod throughout our coverage of season two about the ability to adapt, the nimbableness. with which our guy added to our guy, Sauron, would greet any wrinkle in his plan. If you love to watch a scammer, a conman, then I think that watching Andrew Scott's version of Ripley will really be for you. I will not provide any commentary, any spoilers right now about his deftness as an improviser or a deceiver. I'll leave that for you to discover. But if you loved season two of Rings of Power and you loved the Saran character study, which of course was one of the things that Joe and I loved best about it, then spend some time with the new Netflix show, Ripley,

and with Tom Ripley, another great deceiver. Last thing, this has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just said, but there's just this all-star showing from a cat in this season of TV, Lucio the cat. And I would just regret her for the rest of my life if I didn't mention that. Astonishing stuff from this cat. Spends the entire season on one bench, but he sees everything. He's kind of the all-seeing eye, really. The great eye. The great eye.

I can't love it. Lovely things. Thank you for saying. I'm a really serious company to be in. I have not seen it yet. It is really high on my list. I think it might have just jumped to number one. Really exciting.

It's good. I'm sure it is. Great past. Oh, my God. Yeah. It is beautiful. I was feeling very anxious that it had taken me until New Year's, basically, to get to it because people who I love and trust, including someone on the Zoom with us today, spoke highly

of it. And I knew, I knew felt that it was a really an achievement. And when I watched it, I just kept thinking about Charlie Vickers. So, like, what a delight. I mean, anything that makes you think of Charlie Vickers, like, how can you complain, really? Good news. Good news.

Too kind. Amazing. Okay. So Mallory told me, like, I don't know, whenever we were supposed to originally record this a week, over a week ago that she was doing Ripley. And so then I was trying really hard to zag Because I knew she was being she was inspired by Sauron And I was like okay think about other things in rings of power

Other storylines that we love so much We love Duren we love Elron We love Tom Bombadil Like what can I think that sort of gives me Tom Bombadil Like but Tom Bombadil is a one of one and I can't replicate him anywhere else I really was trying and I couldn't find anything And so then it brought me back to The Calibor and Soron dynamic which really was

and we've said on the podcast and I think we've said it to you guys sort of like your the thing you most needed to get right and the thing that you absolutely nailed and the thing that we were worried about and the thing that we loved the most and so

the year is 1984 and the film is Amadeus and I want to talk about Amadeus for a second because I can't if you've never seen Amadeus one of the best ones that I've ever made and sort of similar to, I would say, Empire of the Sun, maybe something that's been lost a little as the generations go on.

I don't know that it's like a long film, so I don't know that it's one that, like, people revisit in, like, the new generations of film lovers. But this is F. Marie Abraham as Salieri and Tom Hulse as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and it is the most iconic story of artistic envy, artistic striving, and just thinking, I can't map. Salieri and Mozart to Calibran Borough Saran because they're both, both of them, kind of in all of this. And there's a scene, spoilers for history, Mozart dies and spoiler for Amadeus.

But there's a scene, the best scene, I think, in the film where Amadeus, who has been this boyish, immature, but genius Thorn in the side of Salieri, who is the epitome of artistic envy, is dying on his deathbed, sort of pushed there by the machinations of Salieri, and he is drenched in sweat, and on his last leg, last thread of his life, and Salieri, his enemy is there helping him finish this requiem. And so they're going back and forth in this sort of frenzy, this ecstasy of artistic creation as he's like, the violence comes. I'm here and then they're like, oh yes, and then the chorus arcs above this, and then we're flashing to Celia in the future. We're calling this moment of artistic creation, this moment that he got to keep up with Mozart and touch this sort of pure genius of creation.

And so just thinking about Kelbrimur and Saurin and this incredibly toxic relationship, obviously, and the manipulations that are inside of this relationship, but the genuine shared desire to create. something pure and beautiful and art that will endure immortally. And so, yeah, I tried so hard to pick something else. I told Mallory, I was like, this is such a pretentious pick. I love it. But I have to pick Amadeus, so that's where I am. Yeah. I have to say, so true story, I had three, like, top three, which one am I going to wreck?

Amadeus was one of the three. Hell yeah. For the exact same reason. And I chose to go more tonal, vivy in terms of emotions and a little bit less one-to-one in terms of themes. The third one, which now I have to mention cheating, is the amazing show, Halt and Catch Fire. Oh, we love Halt and Catch Fire. Yes. Yes.

The Hesbire is awesome, but it's all about creative collaboration. Yes, yes. And tension and relationships, and it also has the all-time greatest needle drops in, you know, premium television history. Patron's saying of House of Our Lee Pace. Never about time to bring up Leapace. I think the line from the last, like, decade plus of TV that I quote most often is it was never about where we were going. It was always about how it felt. It's like any opportunity I get to think about that.

That's one of our favorite things to talk about. Oh, my God, what a great show. Can I, I know, like, kind of our time is up and we've done all our wrecks, but can I ask you really quickly? I was just curious. I don't think we asked you this. When you were thinking about putting two people in a room, Calibur and Sauron talking for much of the season, what, did you have other inspirations that you were like, this really nail this dynamic? Sorry, I'm cheating and asking you an interview question that you're preparing for. You were totally cheating.

Yeah, we talked about Halt and Catch Fire. I think we talked about Amadeus. Amazing. And we talked about Gaslight, which I feel like Jady and I, when we spoke last time, you know, brought up. Yes. But I think the other thing is, look, I mean, you know,

we're potentially guilty of being Uber fans and constantly being like, well, we were sort of inspired by this, but then also, la, la, la. But I think the thing that we really latched on to is that we felt like we hadn't seen that kind of a story or relationship before quite that way. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like weirdly, like the inspiration was more like, what if it was like this?

And that seemed novel, which was scary. But I think, you know, the fact that you guys are talking about it, you know, it just makes us feel even more. I will tell J.D., and it'll make us feel even more confident that it was the right, you know, Roto Ho. Yes. Nailed it. Now we just have to do it again. No pressure. It's going to be great.

We're so excited. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. appreciate it. We, and, you know, we love you. We love your work. So, and even though you and I disagree on how good the show disclaimer was, I just think you are the best. Wait a minute now. Joanna, I think we, we 90% agree about. Okay. Okay. All right. Good. Yeah.

There we go. Mallory, I'm sorry about the Ravens. Same. Thank you. Same. I am, I watched a, I watched her doc. last night, I was like, do I have the strength to watch the most recent episode of Hard Docks? I decided to do it. It felt like it would be a healthy way to pursue some closure. And, you know, to loosely like a – this isn't really paraphrasing a separate piece. But, you know, it's like I felt like I was watching my own funeral.

And it's really, really what it felt like. And yet you live. And yet she's here. You don't cry in that case, though, you know? As we got to revisit through Paul Giamati and Sideways, this is a student's separate piece. Great moment. Oh my God. Exist until 26.

It's the motto that we came up with earlier this week. So this is where we are. Thank you, Patrick. You're the best. We appreciate you. Thank you, seeing you both. Thank you for inviting me.

Happy to be here. Thank you. For joining us. You're the best. Hope to see you both soon. All right. Penguin director, Craig Zivel. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for having me. Nice to see you guys. Nice to see you. We love you. Direct the first three episodes of the Peggy. a show we absolutely loved. And as someone who comes on and gets to direct the first chunk of episodes, you get to sort of set the visual palette for a show,

get a hand in shaping what the look and the style of the show will be. So we wanted to ask you maybe some of your inspirations for the look of the show or the style of the show. And then also, if you have a specific recommendation for people who love the penguin, what they might want to watch or listen to or read next. Yeah, sure. Well, so, you know, when we kind of set out to make it, I talked to Matt Reeves and he was

kind of like, if you can get it as close. He's a lover of like 70s cinema. And so he was like, if you can get it, however close you can get it to the French connection is like, you know, like what I think would be cool. And I was like, I like the French connection. So I guess that would be a recommendation, just kind of go. back and watch that. If you haven't seen it in a while, if you, if you're a person that kind of knows it from from film class or something like me, I hadn't seen it in years. And it's quite a,

it's a pretty experimental, weird movie. It's cool. It's worth the watch. Yeah. Has a, has a car, kind of famously has a car chase in it that was done sort of without telling anybody in the city. So it looks very much dangerous. Yeah. So that was kind of that, but, but at the same time, like, that was so such a, it is such a unique and special thing. I mean, it is not like the pink. I can't say it looks like pigmen. That, that, you know, we went and kind of looked for other things that maybe we could kind of borrow from as far as a stylistic, like, camera work and things like that. And like, I ended up hitting on another, another story, um, about another kind of. of small time up-and-coming crook, which was the killing of a Chinese bookie. Just the way the camera moves and that and stuff, we were kind of like very excited by like, oh, okay, it feels it feels a little like, compared to the Batman, which was very, it's like a David Fincher movie, like it's like very kind of like so precise and incredible that this needed

to feel like somebody who was kind of chaotic and like bumbling through. through his situation in times. And so, like, there's something, like, about, about the spirit of killing a Chinese bookie that I just had in my head while making it. Again, not the same, but, like, maybe you will see some reference there. And then, I guess, like, for Colin, it was yet another, like, very kind of old 70s movie, which is a Bob Hoskins movie called The Long Good Friday. again, about a mafia guy who's kind of up, like a middle management mafia guy kind of trying to make it.

So those were sort of our inspirations. And I mean, just to talk about to kind of recommend, I love crime dramas is the thing I like to watch a lot. And the one this week that has been, that actually does have a penguin connection, oddly, but that I've been sort of obsessed with just as a recommendation is the, you know, I think 2007 or 2008, Sydney Lomet film before the devil knows you're dead. And it is, it's like pretty interesting movie that like, I feel like kind of whistled by at the time

and like not that many people really like watched it. It didn't have like a big cultural sticking at the time. But like watching it now, it's a, you know, it's a New York crime story. So it does hold. that in common, I suppose. And it has Philip Sumer Hoffman as the lead. And it's like, you know, one of his better performances, truly like one of the best

actors that we ever had. It's very sad that we don't have them. Correct. My favorite. But it also has, like, it has Ethan Hock at a time period when I feel like people hadn't fully, like, agreed that Ethan Hock was as amazing as he was. And it's just like, it's like he's really, he plays the role of a guy who can't get out of his own way. He sort of is like an adult that's bad at adulting and is kind of like messing up all the time.

And he's really awesome in it. And it also has like kind of amazing performance by Marissa Tomei, who it's really, it's quite a fun, fun little crime thriller. And it's connection to what's a. interesting is that like that's i've just like watched that this week i've been thinking about it all week um but i it does have a connection to the penguin in that um there's a character one of the character's wife uh is uh this actress alexa paladino who was actually in the penguin she's friend of um she's she's the cousin of christin miliotti uh at one point that kind of like makes friends with her and then then you know sort of talks about when they used to like

Hit on Boys in Italy and, like, FOMO. And then, you know, is like, you know, definitely kind of turncoat and like, like, out together. So she, she is also in, she has a very small, what feels like a very small role in before the devil knows you're dead. But that turns into, I mean, she's number five kind of on the list in the end of the movie. She, like, has quite a kind of consequential role in the movie. So those are kind of. of New York-flavored crime stories. That's a great recommendations.

Killing of a Chinese bookie I watched for the first time during COVID, and I was just like a real mind-blowing experience for me. I had never seen anything like it before since that's a great recommendation. I love it. Yeah, it's really, really fun maybe. What a list. What a bounty. I know.

Thank you for those treasures. Yeah, I guess that's just do one. Sorry. No, no. No. Our favorite tradition is a smuggle. We love a smuggle. Neither of us ever abides by the rule of how many things you're supposed to pick.

So you're fitting right in immediately. Mallory Rubin, what would you recommend? What would you recommend to fans of the penguin? Hey, pal, thanks for asking. So I'm not going to go to the 70s. I'm going to the 80s. I'm going to 1986 my birth year. David Lynch is on all of our minds recently, of course, after his passing.

And last weekend, booted up Blue Velvet. We had to watch it. We had to spend a couple hours with it, obviously, Stone Cold Class. like one of the best movies ever made. And if you have never seen it, in general now is the time. There's never a bad time. It's never too late to discover Blue Velvet or Lynch in general. And if you loved the penguin, you will find a lot to love in this movie. There is, in terms of the ties and then the commonalities that that lovers of the penguin might find here. You know, I kind of like don't want to say anything specific about the movie. Obviously, I want to leave that for people to discover, but just like generally. the idea of a darkness lurking under the surface of a suburban or urban life.

Crime rings, secrets, pursuits that you couldn't have forget known about, like conceived of until you glimpsed them directly. Paths crossing in unpredictable ways leading to often quite dark and upsetting entanglements. keen interest in questions of identity, violence, desire, memory, and dreams, and the roles that those play in our lives. Obviously, some very important and upsetting and memorable musical moments in both of these properties. And, of course, the main reason, mommy issues. Oz and Frank Booth would have a lot to talk about. And if you watch Blue Velvet, you will understand why. So that is my recommendation.

I love that, Mike Mal. That's so good. Joe, what about you? When you some musical moments, I realize I should have just, like, said, let's talk about the works of Fred Astaire. But that ship has sailed. I pick something else. We're going out to the 1990s. I'm picking a 1998 film Dark City.

When I think about Gotham, I think, and I like to think about sort of the best depictions of, like, a fantastical yet grounded in reality, gritty, noirie. City, Dark City, which is Alex Pryas' follow-up to The Crow. He made Dark City. It's got Rufus Sewell, Kiefer Sutherland, William Hurt, Jennifer Connolly, Richard O'Brien from Rocky Horror Picture Show fame. The premise is wild. This film was not well received. Yeah, but I feel like a lot. I feel like it stayed in everyone's heads, though.

It's become this cult thing, but Roger Ebert, it was like Roger Ebert's favorite movie of the year. And everyone else is like, no, this movie sucks. Classic garage. And then it's just grown in estimation. And then in 2008, Alex Pius put out a director's cut, which is so much better than the theatrical cut. Just some significant differences that the studio made him put in to, like, dumb it down. He took out and made it the sort of twisty mystery that he wanted it to be in the first place. So in terms of just like taking genre like the penguin does and rooting it in,

in classic noir tropes. I really, you know, we've got gum shoes, we've got femme fatals, we've got all this stuff going on in Dark City, Jennifer Connolly, one of the all-time sort of noir bombshell femme fatals in this movie, to a certain degree. And then the, you know, as Mel said with Blue Velvet, the idea of memory is, which is so key to how the penguin, that story rolls out and is central to this one.

There's a, there's a wild twist to this. movie, please watch the director's cut so that it could be a twist rather than like given to you in a clumsy, like, voiceover prologue from Keith through Sutherland at the beginning. That would be my preference. And I think what happened is, yeah, it's become this sort of cult classic, like people talk about it. But also a lot of its fresh style and look and all this sort of was kind of swallowed up by the Matrix, which came out a year later. I think the Matrix kind of took its place in people's thinking when they thought about sort of like, a tech noir kind of thing. But yeah, Dark City, don't never forget. It's so weird. It's so good. It really does stick with you that movie.

Yeah, yeah. Great pick. So that's my recommendation. Anything else that you want to recommend, Craig, or say about the penguin before you let you go? No, gosh. I'm just so excited that people are, you know, excited about the show.

And I, like everyone else, can't wait to see the new movie. and see the further adventures. We love that. We should say if you've not watched other things that Craig has done, in addition to a movie that I love that got wildly underappreciated, The Hunt, I want to shout out. Craig did the International Assassin episode of The Leftovers,

a Stone Cold classic. I kind of know my incredible Westworld episode. Just a lot, and the Mary Beastown, of course, incredible work from Craig. So you're a genius. And I was so excited when I saw. I was so excited when I saw your name on The Penguin, and I'm so excited to have you on the pod.

So thanks so much for joining us. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, guys. Yeah. And thanks for watching my stuff. Thanks for making it. We had a blast. Yeah. Thanks, Craig.

Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. Well, thank you to everyone who recommended stuff for us. We were definitely recording this after we've conducted all those interviews. And definitely know what everyone said. Mallory, how are you feeling? Feeling good? Great. I'm thrilled that we were able to do this pod.

Fantastic idea, a really fun, genuinely fun experience. I should say. It was my idea, but the way I floated it, I was like, oh, but we probably can't do this. And it was Mallory who said, let's do it. Let's try. Malory's support and we did it. I would have just tossed the idea out and said, but no way we can pull this off. But we put it together. So there we go. Thanks to all of our guests for being so flexible.

with timing and all of that sort of stuff there is wonderful. Thanks to all of you watching who saw us go through different outfits and etc. I just rolled with it and we will be back next week with Ex Machina.

genuinely very excited. I don't always sort of push our listeners to like we have plenty of listeners who listen along without having watched the thing but genuinely if you haven't seen Ex Machina I really think you'll like it. So I really want you to check it out. So we'll be back next week with that. Thank you, as always,

to Joe Me a Dinner on the social, to our Juno Rangipal for everything he does, and I just could not even be able to name it because it's too much. And then to John Richter and Steve Allman in the studio, making the video happen. They are the best. And we will see you all next week. Bye.