House of R - House of Rewinds: 'Ex Machina' 10 Years Later

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Dance with her! And dance with Mal and Jo as they revisit the sci-fi classic 'Ex Machina' on its anniversary! They hand out awards and praise for the film that gave us hot robots, existential dread, and perhaps a touch of murder. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Supervision: John Richter Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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language and tools all set for extinction. I am become death and the destroyer of worlds. there you go again Mr. Quotable there you go again it's not my quote that's what Oppenheimer said after he made the atomic bomb yeah I know what it is dude welcome to House of Art I'm Governor Robinson

joining me today and repeating over and over to herself the good deeds a man has done before defends him the good deed a man has done before defends him it's Mallory Rubin hey Mallory how you doing I'm on brown rice and mineral water.

Great to be here. Words she's never said in her entire life, folks. Here we are to talk to you about ex machina and just a masterpiece, a perfect film. Yes. Question mark. A spookily prescient film. And here we are roughly 10 years later. We'll talk about that in a second.

But before we get into just sort of our easy, breezy, beautiful tour through a movie that we both really, really love. that is quite thought-provoking. Some programming reminders. Mm-hmm. If you haven't already, but I'm sure you have, but you haven't already, checked out the Midnight Boys, do Family Court, colon, Batman, with the right honorable Chris Ryan presiding. I really recommend you check that out over on the ringer verse.

It's a must. It's a must. You've got to watch this one. There's suits. Everyone looks great. Yeah. You can see the power. go to Chris's head in real time as he renders his judgment.

I had to pause because I was laughing so much. I was missing dialogue after Steve invoked threads. I just need a minute to recover. This is a masterpiece. Over on Button Mash, they are covering Mythic Quest season four. The Mint Adish crew is doing your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, episode one reactions. And next week, The Midnight Boys, You are doing an Infinity War black recast

and also doing a Falcon and Winter Soldier revisit to get ready for Captain America, the new Captain America film. Brave of y'all to do that, and I'm excited to listen. That shall not be part of my improv. Over here, we are, for the next couple weeks,

we're sort of in and out a little bit as we gear up to sort of this big coverage of many, many things that Mallory and I are looking at we've got Daredevil coming. We're so excited. Mal and I are going to be doing White Lotus on the prestige feed. We're doing yellow jackets. We're doing a ton of stuff.

We're talking about Onyx Storm, which means we got to reread Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. There's just like a lot of prep going on here at the house of our team. So we'll be sort of in and out the next couple weeks leading up to that. Next week, though, our

plan is to do a mailbag episode. Love a seasonal bag. We love a mailbag episode. So hobbs and drag is at gmail.com. We've already gotten some mailbag questions from folks because we announced this a couple weeks ago. So they've been oozing in, but if that ooze could turn into a deluge, I would not be upset. So hobbs and drag is at gmail.com is where you can reach us to ask us any questions you might have.

Mallory Rubin. Yes, ma'am. How could folks keep track of us, track of the Midnight Boys? track of the minty crew, track of button mash. What do you think? What do you say? Thanks for asking.

It's simple. Here you go. Ready? Yeah. No. Follow the pod. Yes. There you go.

Okay. You're caught up. That's all you need. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringervverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing, whatever that might be these days.

And send us the emails as Joe noted. Send them for the mailback. said him for anything. We're only a couple weeks away from Captain America. We're only a few weeks away. I guess, yeah, a few. God, it's January 30th, isn't. We're only a few weeks away from Daredevil. Email us about everything we love to hear from you. That's it. Now you know how to follow. Thanks so much for saying that. Hey, you bet. That's so great. That's wonderful. Spoiler warning for today is for the film ex machina and all of all of our existential fears about AI is The future of mankind.

The table as we discuss this film, which Ex Machina, if you're listening, sometimes people listen to the pod without having seen the thing. So let me just say really quickly. Ex Magina is a science fiction film that strains credulity because it asks us to believe that Donald Gleeson does not have a girlfriend. Step one. Donald Gleason plays a programmer named Caleb who wins a prize he thinks to go visit

the reclusive eccentric founder, CEO of his company, Nathan in a modernist utopian structure in the middle of the wilderness by glaciers and fjords, etc. And there he meets an AI played by the great Aluccova Kandr. And we have some

questions about AI, about humanity, about whether anyone should ever be a billionaire. I have questions about that. And murder, mayhem ensues. The anniversary that we're celebrating is complicated. Ex Machina had about

20 different debut dates. But somewhere in the middle there, there was a 2015 debut, a debut at South by Southwest. It debuted in the UK. There's a couple different dates. So this is roughly 10-ish years later. Ex Machina revisited.

Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Let's go now to our opening step. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid

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Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood. blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zeppbound. Lily.com. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, tersepatite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a

2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop, Zepbound, and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with

anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripp are back in a new series Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has are returned, and this time they're taken on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs.

Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Shut. All right, Mallory, as I mentioned, roughly 10 years ago, Ex Machina debuted. What's your relationship? When did you watch Ex Machina?

What's your relationship to it? How do you feel about it? Tell me everything. I can't tell you the exact month around the many releases when I watched it, but I definitely watched it the year it came out. Adam and I saw it back in 2015, though the year it came out, I guess one of the years it came out here in the United States of America. We were, the masses were able to access it.

And immediately just loved it. It became one of my favorite films, and I always enjoy revisiting it. I think about it often. Donald Gleason and Oscar Isaac are two of my all-time favorites, as you know, and as this House of Arcannon. And Alex Garland is one of my favorites. I love Alex Garland's work. And I think this movie really is like a classic, a classic of the genre, a classic of modern times. And I kind of couldn't believe when you pointed out that it had come out a decade ago. Like it feels like I just saw it yesterday for the first time. That was sort of harrowing to have to confront. But here we are. A decade later, and this beautiful movie is in our lives. It's a great 4K disc for the physical media heads like Sean Fennessey and like my husband

Adam. So I was like, wow, great. Here this is. Wonderful. Thank you. And yeah, it's just an incredible movie. I really never tire of revisiting it. What about you? When did you first come to this? And why is the answer South by Southwest when you wrote multiple pieces that were published on the internet and people can still read. I was at South by Southwest. Ten years ago for Vanity Fair. And I was there as a journalist and I was there at the Paramount Theater when they premiered at South By and Oscar Isaac was there.

Donald Glisson was there. And Alex Garland was there. And we were all tremendously excited to be in the room. It's similar, you know, similar vibes to when you and I went to go see Monkey Man and everyone was just like lost their mind. That was a similar reception. the Dev Patel Monkey Man reception and the Oscar Isaac Donald Gleason reception

But it's interesting, we'll talk about this in a second But it's interesting that this came out the same year as But before the Forces Weekends But obviously we'd all seen like the trailer So we knew that these two guys were in the new Star Wars film But we hadn't seen it yet Before we get into that, I want to swoop back to Alex Garland And say Alex Garland as a creator

You know, was a frequent collaborator with Danny Boyle He wrote the screenplay for 20 days later Sunshine, The Beach, wrote the screenplay for one of Mallory's all-time favorites, never let me go. And then directed, wrote and direct, this is a directorial debut, wrote and directed this film

Mike Smokina, and then he made Annihilation, an adaptation of a tremendous novel. He made a men, a very complicated film that I have lots of thoughts and feelings about, and Sean Fennessee and I did a big pick episode about, and Civil War and Devs, a show that I believe Mal and Jason

covered. And so that is the Alex Garland loose body of work. And I agree with him out. Like he's one of my all-time favorites. He's not like his stuff is not always perfect. Like I have a lot of quibbles with devs. I have a lot of quibbles with men the film. And I just, but it's always interesting. He has so much on his mind. And and thinks so deeply. And especially when you go back and revisit Ex-Makita film that a lot of people have seen and a lot of people think is great.

But if you go back and look at it now in 2025, you're like, this guy was doing this 10 years ago when people were not talking about, people were talking about AI, but not the way he's talking about AI in this film. And I think it's just incredibly, I think we should pay very close attention to everything Alex Garland does, like maybe go rewatch Civil War and think about it a little bit. Here we go. So I feel really similar. I actually don't love everything he makes, but I'm always, I'm always, like, riveted by whatever he is presenting us to consider and just find his writing and, you know, from this film onward, his directing incredibly, like, provocative and thought provoking. And sometimes I actually find that I quite powerfully disagree with his maybe core point of view or perspective, which was ultimately like where I came

down on devs. I was so shaken and disturbed by the thesis of devs. Like, I just could not embrace it ultimately. But I loved that the show made me feel that strongly about it, just like, you know, incited that deep of a response. Civil Wars, I actually have not seen men. I never saw men. So I got I got to watch that at some point. His most, like, horror. That's the thing. It's just, the trailer's, like, really freaked me out. I was like, this might be a pass for me. But at some point, I I'm so intrigued by his work that I will probably see it. But I like did not like Saville War at all. And then when I talk to Chris about it,

and I really like admire obviously his opinion so much and consider him such a man of taste and letters. And it was like his literally favorite movie of the year, which I found difficult to wrap my mind around, but really interesting. And I do think that's one that I'll go back to. And I'm like, I wonder if I'll feel similarly about it or if I'll see it differently.

But, yeah, I had a medium okay time with Civil War, like highs and lows. And then I talked to a bunch of people about it and who loved it. And they really changed my mind about a lot of things. And I think it's one of those similar to, I keep saying this to Sean about the Brutalist. Like there are certain films you watch and don't enjoy the experience of watching them, but you enjoy the experience of thinking about them and enjoy the experience of talking about them. Annihilation is similar, like by design and that story. it is like...

I really like that movie. Oh, no, I like it a lot, but it is because of the, like, psychologically destructive and physically destructive nature of the environment that they're sort of, you know, moving into, it is, to me, an uncomfortable watch by design, but a really interesting thing to think about, and I love that book. And so, like, a really tricky book to adapt. So, I think I told you this before once, but. this is one of the most still to this day

disorienting consumption experiences for me because I knew we were going to cover the film on binge and so I of course wanted to read the book and I'm like this is pretty short. Let me do it before I see the movie which I was seeing like a day or two after that. So I was finishing the book. When I tell you I was in my seat at the movie theater

finishing the book and then watch movie. I would not recommend doing it that way because I loved them both but they like maybe in a way that is kind of meta actually. like morphed and melded into each other in a way that made them almost impossible to discern, but they are ultimately quite distinct. But yeah, you know, Ex-Moccanon and Annihilation are only a few years apart, and those are just stunning.

And obviously, you know, the 28 franchise we recently discussed on the hype draft, which we don't need to get back into here. I was on a big pick today. Sean said something about like, he was talking to Amanda about the Oscar bet and how he like didn't really care, wasn't competitive or whatever. And I was like, big to fucking differ, different, dude. like lie to yourself if you want to, but don't lie to me. Yeah, 20 days later, a masterpiece, sunshine, a masterpiece.

The Beach, quite an alienating movie when it came out, but has been really interesting to me. We revisited it for a trial by content episode last year, and I had a really good time with it last year. So I think his stuff ages really well, but it is, there's always sort of like an irritant quality to it. And I think because he has such a negative take on humanity, that's part of it. He's just sort of like, what if humans are ultimately a mistake? Or what if humans are only one step in our evolution towards a more perfect being that seems to be on his mind? So I think that's quite interesting. Yeah, I wrote a review for X Machina for VF and I wrote another article about.

about that South by situation. I reread that article that I wrote about South by that year and I was just like, I don't agree with 2015 Joanna, but that's okay.

But I wanted to ask you about the idea of like Hux and Poe being in this movie. Jake Gyllenhaal was almost cast in the Oscar Isaac role. The studio really wanted

like a bigger name because Oscar Isaac and Donald Gleason were not big names. Alicia Vikander was a no. nobody. Like they had, there were like no names in this movie and they wanted someone that people would know. I see your face. And on the one hand, I would not change a single thing about X Machina.

Perfect. I do actually think Jake would have done a good job. Yeah. No, I'm like thinking of the alternate history. It's a fascinating casting what if. Because like, Ascarazic is such is so, he's just like, he is Nathan. Yeah. But this is part, you know, this is why casting what if has been a, one of the only like, rewatchables categories that's never changed. It's like, it is so interesting to consider that alternate history. He would have had certainly that like, I apologize for my, not just metaphorical,

but literal throat clearing on today's podcast and my even more voluminous than usual sniffling. I am not feeling well. But he would have certainly had that, oh, you can see how people would be swept up in what he's pitching. Yeah.

And you know, you could easily imagine him even though you never see him in like the public sphere, right? using his charisma to build Blue Book and this disarming quality, but also then that lurking sinister element. He would have had all of that. So, yeah, that's fascinating. Like a bearded Jake Gyllenholm with that, like, gleam that he can turn on really easily

and that, like, nightcrawler gleam in his eye. I love that movie. I don't know. Me too. It's one of my favorites. And that charisma, that, like, seduction that he can do, but also that sort of what Jake can do quite well is that sort of intellectual superiority, that sort of sneering condescension is something he can do really well.

That being said, I think Oscar Isaac's performance in this movie. Sensational. My favorite Oscar Isaac performance. I think inside Lewin Davis is like a close second to me. It's tough to top Lewin Davis. Yeah. But, um. As you know, I'm partial to this is scenes from America.

I really stuck with me. I really bonded us, I think. But I think that the way he talks in this movie, the like dude stuff that, like he says dude a lot and throws that in. But also there's just like he's, you know, incredibly intelligent, obviously. But there's also just sort of like a slightly rough way that he talks that I think is an interesting contrast. Whereas I think Jake might have come off like a little bit more polish in a way that isn't as good as what Oscar does here.

I think you want to say about Donald Gleason, like at this time in his career, in this movie, anything like that. You know, one of the greats, one of the legends. We have a lot of patron saints here at House of Arhe. He's one of them, obviously. I,

my, you know, the power ranking always shifts, but I feel confident saying my second favorite Black Mirror episode, still to this day, be right back. Where of course, he plays as his as Jess, we used to love saying on binge, AI Ash, the non-breathing fuckstick who won't quit. Really memorable

bedroom scenes in that episode. Great Black Bear episode. Absolutely gut-wrenching and deeply upsetting, but really good. So, I just love his performance in that. Of course, he's Bill Weasley. I mean, he's just, he's at that point, you know, he's one of these great. And, you know,

then we're treated, as you said, mere months later, to Hux who... I love Hux. What did we do to deserve Hux? What did we do to deserve Hux? We don't deserve Hux. He's just the best. I will never forget, Steve, you're going to remember what this felt like, too, when we were at Galaxy's Edge after Star Wars Celebration a few years ago and rode Rise of the Resistance and

suddenly heard Hux speaking to us. And I don't know that anyone had ever felt. so alive as we did then. Was there like a squealing sound? What did we? Yes. Yes. Lots of squealing.

Lots of tight gripping. Yeah. I also remember that we ran it back on that ride like two other times. We immediately went back in line to ride it again. Just a group of adults who were like, can we get right back in line? Amazing. I can still remember the stomach ache I had that night. Not from the ride, but just from the astonishing amount of blue milk I consumed.

So Donald Gleason, Oscar Isaac, and then Alicia Vickander. And Alicia Vecander, again, came out of, like, basically nowhere. It did both this and then the Danish girl, the Danish girl. She won the Oscar for her. But really, she won the Oscar for this. The Academy was just too much, like, too cowardly. You know, X-Mukkah did win Oscars, but they were too cowardly to put it up in the major category. Yeah.

It should have been up in Best Picture. Yes. should have been, you know, the acting, all the actors should have been nominated, et cetera, et cetera. Alicia Vikander, though I will say, like,

she's so good in this movie. I knew that. I remembered it. I have rewatched Ex Machina since I first saw it. And still watching it, again, the couple times I did leading up to this podcast, I was just mesmerized by her,

the, you know, the bird-like quality of her sort of movements, but also the warmth and humane. entity of her movement, but like there's something slightly off, but just so barely. And it's so incredible the way that she captured it and the way that Alice Garland wrote it and directed it and all of that. But I just think that this creation, Ava, is just like one of one of the greatest things we've ever seen. The visuals, her performance matched with

the most incredible VFX that never, the most, incredible VFX that just never looks off. You would expect at some angle or some moment. It would look strange. She's got this mesh body that is see-through in parts and stuff like that. And on set, she was wearing this solid body suit. They went in afterwards and put the VFX in. But it's just an astounding accomplishment and an astounding creation.

And something, you know, I was watching this reel that the VFX studio, put out about this particular effect as part of their ultimately successful Oscar campaign. And they were talking about how hard it was to find the balance between human and machine. The fact that they wanted her not to look like a woman in a metal suit. They wanted the fluidity of her movement. They wanted, but then they wanted you to never sort of forget. So even when she puts a wig on and is wearing like flowery dresses later, we can still see her neck.

You know, and the collarbones are still, you know, machine. And so I just think that is one of the most astounding accomplishments. What do you want to say about Alicia Vikender or this particular digital effects? This is just a mesmerizing performance. I agree. I agree with you. I have like the same reaction to it where no matter how many times I return to the film, I'm just like awed.

Not just again, but anew. The visual callouts, I mean, it's, it is just a tremendous, like, everything in Garland's universe, it's so immersive. So the soundscape of this film is obviously very different from annihilation, but it makes me think of the same effect it has on you. And it's from, it's the micro and the major, right? Like the every... Wurring. Yeah, the war, every small movement, every time Ava takes a step, that sound, it just like helps you, it helps root you in what it would feel like to be in that room. And part of the quality of the film that's just so gripping is, you know, not just the emotional seduction, but the physical, the tactile.

Like, what would it actually feel like to be a part of that? What would it feel like to have thought you won this lottery and then made your way to this place and walked down into that lab and then found yourself separated just by a pane of glass from this creation that would alter the future of mankind? And so little touches like that go such a long way to make – and I'm always really interested in the scene where Nathan takes Caleb then into the lab lab. The lab lab, the tree. This is where I built, Eva. And even though I think the holding the brain in the hand moment, the gel, the wet wear moment is so astonishing and everything that he's saying is like just kind of you're like, holy shit, oh my God. And I think in general the movie's ability to explain things at actually a convincing level of seeming expertise without ever making us feel like it's like a clunky convoluted exposition. I'm getting away from your question about Ava now.

No, no, no. Eva is obviously our lens into all of this. Like, it always feels so effortless and it helps establish that rhythm and flow that allows us like Caleb to get swept up in it because like, for example, when Nathan asks Caleb, do you know what the Turing test is? I get a chill every time because it's like the purpose of that is to make sure that the viewer at home understands what the Turing test is, period. But you don't feel that because it actually is believably a test that Nathan would put

Caleb through, right? And so whether it's an act of conversation or us seeing the machinery inside of Ava, it all has to work on all of those levels. Like, we have to move the plot forward. We have to bring Caleb deeper into this deception. We have to ask these prof- and then we, as the viewers consider these, like, profound questions. And so it has to have this simultaneous, like, dreamlike and then deeply practical melding. And Ava is obviously the culmination of that larger truth, I thing across the film, which is just part of the, part of the reason it's so wonderful to watch. I think that's such a great shout out, the sort of scientific exposition and the way that it is rooted in character, because you've got Caleb there, you've got Nathan there who's constantly

testing, testing Caleb on multiple levels, right? Like, do you know what the Turing test is? But also, Nathan is so far ahead of Caleb, for the most part, until Caleb is ahead of him. but Nathan's so far out of Caleb for the most part that a lot of those times he's also just trying to disarm him by letting him feel smart. He's just sort of like, tell me what you know about the touring test

so that you can feel like you're dazzling me, the tech genius who is hosting you. So there's like traps within traps here for Caleb. And then Caleb as someone who is trying to like show off for Nathan. So when he or for Ava, And so when he describes certain things, it's rooted in his character's desire to seem smart, to seem competent,

to seem like he understands the magnitude of what is going on here. And so all of that works really well. So we're never just sort of rolling our eyes and feeling like we're being lectured to for no reason other than information dump. It's a brilliant trick. Try me. I'm hot on high level abstraction.

I believe that Caleb would say that. I do. You know? That's so awkward. Okay, we're going to talk about that in a second. I did not, I do want to bring up, I'm so glad you brought up Black Mirror because they're watching this movie, especially, I think, because Donald Gleason is in it and be right back is such an iconic Black Mirror episode.

But watching it in this sort of like, you know, near future setting with like believable tech all around us. And it's a, you know, essentially a four-person cast. you know, made on a bit of a shoe string. Yeah. Does this just feel like the best episode of Black Mirror ever made? Or is there something that feels different or, you know, expressly cinematic versus the limits of Black Mirror as a TV show?

Like, what do you think? That's a really interesting question. I think because I, even this many years and this many seasons in, still think of Black Mirror. When I think of Black Mirror, I think actually, if I'm being honest about it, less about the whole episodeography and more just about, like, San Juan Niro,

be right back, the entire history of you, you know, my favorite episodes. And the ones that I would put toe to toe them with like the best sci-fi books or film installments because they feel like they transcend what you should be able to achieve in that span of time. And I think also because, you know,

Black Mirror is a collection of one-off stories and we're not returning to those characters, they always feel very film-like actually already to me. And so, yeah, like, you know, calling this the best or maybe one of the best, I'd still put probably Sanjana Pera first. That's an interesting thing for me to think about later. Wow.

I just love, I don't know. Sanjian-Dipara for me is one of those. I, like, remember so vividly, like, how I felt sitting there finishing the episode for the first time. It's just really up there for me for that reason. But, you know, there is just like in those best Black Mirror episodes, there is a kernel that is driving the pursuit, right? There is something there, an interest, a question, a belief, an idea.

And then there is just such an assured pursuit in the filmmaking. And the style, I do think with Ex Machina, like the call it about the cast size and the budget and everything is really interesting because it is it looks like the most expensive movie ever made it away you know which is such an achievement like some of that is obviously just the absolutely astonishing setting um some of it is that like you know like you're saying the movies made 10 years ago but this the the the eva tech looks so it looks like it could have come out yesterday it looks like it could come out 10 years from now it's just beautiful better than a lot of things that came out yesterday definitely it's just really impressive You know, and I think that that, even though this is a beautiful sweeping movie set in this stunning stretch of Norway that I'm curious to hear your takes on as a recent Norway visitor. I'm so mad we didn't go to this hotel. I know. I know. I mean, God, we should go.

We should go at some point. Ex-Machina and succession. I mean, come on. Did I look up the room rates? I did. What are they? It's like 900 a night. Okay.

We deserve it. I'm just going to say we deserve it. I think we need to figure out a way. to justify it to Spotify. We'll think about it. But you know, it's not only that... Mal and Joe traveled to the most iconic sci-fi locations around the world. A video series?

This sounds like actually genuinely great idea. Great. Let's put a deck together. Okay. Steve, you're coming. The Google Sheets. There's, you know, like the sweeping grandeur of it, but then there's also the intimacy, and that's actually very TV-like to me.

You know, that, like, this believable complexity in an accessible form. The idea that the people are just as scary is maybe the machines. That's very black-marry. So yeah, that comp, I think, is great. On the one hand, yeah, I do think there's a fundamental difference between Charlie Brooker's idea of techphobia and Alex Garland. Yes. Watching this 10 years later, in the context of the ramping, up of everyday interaction with a parent AI. Obviously, AI has been a part of our tech usage for years now, but, you know, using something like chat GPT or something like that, everyday people are just sort of willfully and joyfully

engaging with AI that is just called AI and not being scared by it. Unlike me, I'm very scared of it. But in the context of those AI concerns, 10 years later, Alex Garland's. belief and that he said this at South by and he said in a million interviews and I just like kind of love it about him. He's just sort of like, oh, I'm on the robot side of this. Like the humans are here

but the robots are the more like pure. It's so funny to call them robots because they got so trained by covering Westworld for a year to not call them robots, but Alex Carlin does. That he's on the side of the robots. They are the

purer beings and you know, humanity is an imperfect sort of stepping stone. Charlie Brooker, I think, is just sort of like, humanity is worth saving, but watches all sort of barrel towards our own doom because of our addiction to tech that will ultimately destroy us.

It's slightly different, you know? I definitely am much more in the Charlie camp in terms of my personal feelings and outlook on this. Like, it is sort of amazing, though, how Garland can make you complicit in that. I love that about him. Like, when you're watching the end of the movie, movie and Ava does the thing that she said she was going to do and goes to her busy intersection

and the music is like celebratory and sweeping and it's a victory. Yeah. Like I can opt into the humanity is hopeless and a lost cause part of it. But the so let's root for our new tech overlords, much tougher self. Last one at least in this sort of overview and then we're just going to get into some superlatives that we have about the movie. I'm excited. In the context of tech billionaires playing God concerns,

which goes hand in hand with my AI concerns, who do you think believes, believes they most closely resemble Oscar Isaac's allure in this movie? Do you think it's dark MAGA Elon or Mark Zuckerberg with his new Shane aesthetic? Or perhaps Jeff Bezos? who I am certain would build himself a companion if he could. Any thoughts or feelings on that? Isn't the answer probably all of the above?

Yeah. They all think they're Oscar Isaac and none of them are. There's not enough brown rice and middle of water in the world to get us there. I don't know. We don't need to dwell on this. It's disturbing. But I was just sort of like watching this movie and thinking about, Like, we already obviously had 10 years ago tech billionaires,

but their grip on a lot of the other aspects of our industry. Inside of this movie, Yeah. Nathan is played by Oscar Isaac, founder of Blue Book, which is a search engine, talks about how he uses that search engine, has used that search engine to gather all the data that he needs in order to create this AI project.

and that everyone, you know, all the mobile companies, all the whatever, know that he's doing this and they are powerless to stop him because they're doing it too. Horrifying. And then something that you were to watch 10 years ago and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. That part is very to invoke Black Bear again. Actually, an episode that I like am almost repelled by when I watch because I find it's so upset. I just like can't sit with it is, um, it's very shut up and dance.

Hmm. You know, like, everybody's like the ability to spy on you and access your secrets and vulnerabilities through the machines around you and then weaponize them against you. I won't get into the other reasons that that episode is no. Too upsetting to think about. But, uh, yeah. The idea that they could, they could design you and AI based on your porn search preferences. Yeah.

Um, I'd be so curious to know what, uh, Caleb's porn search preferences were that got him, Ava? Is it like, ballerina builds, do eyes? Like, what is for? Yeah, I know. It is interesting. Because he also, he says specifically, like, did you design Ava's face based on my preferences? Yeah, is he searching for form by facial features? Is that typically how it goes? That's unusual. That is unusual. Very sweet. Yeah. So here we are with his cautionary tale. And we're going to get into some superlative just to celebrate some things we love, some questions we have, and all of the rest. I will say one last thing in terms of like we were praising

sort of how Alex Garland smuggles exposition, inside of character and all this sort of stuff. The efficiency of the opening, that's what almost reminds me most of Black Mirror, the efficiency of the opening of this movie, which has a slim runtime, but like there's no time to spare. And I was actually reading the original script, and there's like even more of a little bit,

of Nathan's journey to the compound, like even longer than his moment that he has in the helicopter at the scene. But the moment he's at his desk, we're tracking his face via various cameras. And he just found out he won something. We don't know exactly what it is yet. And everyone's really excited for him. And then he's off.

And that's it. And that's like such a quick preamble to like, let's just get into it. and I admire the efficiency of it. Alex Garland said this is his favorite film that he's made. And I, you know, obviously agree. But I will say that, like, he's never touched this level again. And this is his first.

And I would love for him to give us another absolute masterpiece like this. He will. Yeah. Anything else you want to say before we get into our ex machina top 10? Let's do it. This is cute. Is it strange, too? Ava speaks.

All right, we're going to start with our favorite. We're going to start sort of get right to the heart of it. What is our favorite scene? This is actually really hard. I'm going to let you go first. So hard. This was so hard for me to pick. There's so many options.

I kept like, and for many of these in classic house of our style, I have like smuggles. Same. But actually not this one. I forced myself to pick one. I also forced myself to pick one. But I just want to let you know that there were about nine other. scenes that got, like, I wrote down and deleted them. Same.

I made my piece with it ultimately just by feeling sure they would, all of those scenes would come up in other categories. All right. So what is your favorite scene from X Machina? Okay. This was impossible. Like, what? I mean, impossible.

It reminded me of, like, doing rewatchables on a movie where I'm like, the answer for most rewatchable scene is the movie. You know, it's just really hard sometimes. But I landed ultimately on. session four, which is, it's after we've had a couple power outages. We've already heard and seen Ava tell Caleb not to trust Nathan. She's tried on her first outfit. We've witnessed the little, like, we should go on a date, exchange.

Caleb has had the conversation with Nathan about, like, why did you get for sexuality? Nathan is taking Caleb to the Pollock painting. So we're like pretty deep into the movie. This is 50 minutes since the movie. So it's about halfway. And when I watch this scene, like I'm always intellectually stimulated and emotionally compelled by all of XMachina, but this one just has my jaw. This part has my jaw on the floor every time. It's the part where Caleb tells Ava about the AI theory class that he took in college.

And the thought experiment. This is almost my time. I thought there was a chance. I was like on the one hand, there's no way we pick the same thing because there are so many contenders. Then I was like, what if we both pick Mary in the black and white room? It's just mesmerizing. Mary's a scientist. And her specialist subject is color.

She knows everything there is to know about it. The wavelengths, the neurological effects, every possible property that color can have. But she lives in a black and white room. She was both there and raised there. She was born there and raised there. And she can only observe. the outside world on a black and white monitor. And then one day, someone opens the door. And Mary walks out and she sees a blue sky. And at that moment, she learns something that all her studies

couldn't tell her. She learns what it feels like to see color. The thought experiment was to show students the difference between a computer and a human mind. The computer is Mary in the black and white room, the human is when she walks out. And as Caleb, go ahead. Yeah. No, no. As Caleb is saying all of that to Ava, we are watching a couple different things. We are cutting to initially this black and white imagery of Ava imprisoned.

Eva in her black and white room. Eva in Nathan's compound, Nathan's lair, Nathan's version of the world for her. and then we get to, we build toward her drenched in color, looking out at the water, finally outside. And back in the room, as Caleb is telling her this, we're cutting to her face. And like initially when he's talking about this, she has, you know, she's smiling.

And then her face falls from a smile to this like thin line at the, but she lives in a black and white room moment, like what she starts to realize, this is a real story of her life. And then the way that her face, hardens and sets from there is so upsetting and so chilling. And of course, this sets up the end of the film. Pause.

Like the human is when she walks out. Pause. That's my favorite scene, is the companion to this is. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Is when Ava builds herself, you know, the sequence that goes from her building herself by, you know, opening sort of the, the bluebeard closet in which Nathan has kept

all of his former, you know, versions of these various women and sort of building herself from their skin, their arms, their clothing. And the gentle, sort of loving way that she kind of touches them, like, she's stripping them for parts, but it's not in a brutal way. It's in a sort of like, we, you know, I feel for your law. sort of situation. And then walking outside in the way that Alicia Vickander, I mean, there's a lot of other stuff that comes between, including poor kill of getting left behind, I guess.

But when she walks outside and when she turns her face to the sun to catch the sun, and we're sitting there watching it, we're like, well, if she can feel sex, which was revealed to us by Nathan in a different scene, like, can she feel the sun on her face. And what does that feel like to her? And what a new experience for her. And it's so fun to watch her progress out because when she walks up the stairs

into just the living room for the first time. Just even the living room, she's like, wow, a different room. Totally. You know, that alone is sort of like excited her. But then to go out, take her shoes off, put her feet, 10 toes into the dirt to sort of feel the ferns

and feel the sun on her face. Yeah, beautiful. It's incredible. I love that we picked those related moments. Me too. Oh, great. All right. Caleb's most awkwardly relatable moment.

All right. Spoiler, this was not one where I could limit myself to one. I have only two, but my number one is so, when I watched it back through the second time, knowing I was looking for this, my number one was so obvious to me. Tell me. It is relatable when he takes the photo that winds up on his key card. Yes. It's like terrible photo on his key card in a moment of just like awkward panic is so good. I love that.

Yeah, this is every driver's license photo I've ever taken. Oh, my God. Incredible. What was your second one? You have another. Okay. When he meets Nathan. and Nathan is hungover and talking about being hung over and cleaning up.

And he goes, wasn't it a good party? And Nathan looks at him Blakely. He's like, yeah, wasn't there a party? And Nathan's just like, you know, basically he was solo drinking. But he's like, anyway, just the way. I love it. Yeah. 88% good American accent just kind of underlines his awkwardness.

So he's just sort of like, was it a good party? You know, it's just like hitting that R very hard. What incredible stuff. What do you have? Here are a few other contenders. There are a lot. I'll run through them. Let me know your thoughts.

Please. Okay. There's the, honestly, you can beg every scene he's in. So after the first session, when Caleb and Nathan are debriefing, the just like very,

I would say this is the heaviest buzzword stretch we get from Caleb. You know, he's like, stochastic, non-deterministic. That's the whole thing, right? And the way that Nathan's like, Caleb, I understand that you want me to explain how Eva works,

but I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to do that. Try me. I'm high on high level of distractions. And Nathan has to say out loud to another person. It's not because I think you're too dumb. It's because I want to have a beer in a conversation with you, not a seminar. And then Caleb, this is specifically the awkward,

relatable moment part. He just has that like really, really awkward little chuckle of embarrassment. And he's like, yeah, sorry. Kills me. But Nathan just being like, I just want to have a beer with you, dude. And he's like, it's not because I think you're not smart enough. And it's like, it is because he thinks he's not. Brutal moment later.

It's like, so it's not because I'm like the best program. And he's like, no. No. No. No. hurt. It's like, well, no. I mean, you're not bad, but no.

Okay. A few other contenders. Yeah. Caleb's response when Keogico unannounced and uninvited comes into his room. Yeah. Comes into his room, that too. But when she comes into his room in the morning and he's just like squirming under his corner, he's like, oh.

Incredible. This actually might be my, my. pick of all of all of the nominees. This next one might be my favorite. When in session two, Ava's asking him about his love life and she says, are you married? Um, no. Is your status single? And then he just turns as red as though the power had gone out in the entire scene were bathed in tomato. Yes. That's great. And, you know, similarly when later in session three, they talk about the idea of a date, his just awkwardness

and that entire conversation is just so wonderful. Are you attracted to me? You give indications that you are. I do. And then it builds toward later. It's like, I'm not sure you'd call them micro.

Fantastic stuff. Two other contenders when they're talking about the, when Nathan's talking about the sensors for sexual pleasure. And an answer to your real question, you bet she can be fucked, just the way Caleb takes

the sip of the beer after he says, what? What? Love that. And then this one is not anything he says. It's just a physical awkwardness moment. When Nathan takes him outside, he has to climb a cliff face, climb a mountain. And there's that little moment before the great conversation by the glacier where we just watch Nathan standing bold and tall and then composed and proud and fit and confident

and Caleb just like kind of flops over like pulls himself and just sort of flop tumbles over to the edge and he's like great stuff like it's just the perfect character perfect character um he's wonderful there's also like there's a moment when when kela when nathan is like they're by this incredible glacier it's gorgeous and nathan's just sort of like laying back like not even looking at it because he's just sort of like this is my backyard. I don't really care. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Do you think that Caleb packed that outerwear that he wore in that scene?

Do you think they were like you need to pack some sort of like windbreaker? Or do you think Nathan gave him that jacket? I all wonder about this every time. He had a pretty small suitcase. He's there for a week. I think Nathan provided for him. Yeah. I think so too. Yeah. If only we had seen him wearing one of Nathan's

take tops that would have been like way too baggy on him and he would just been like, huh? Okay. Um, so those were all in Caleb's most awkwardly relatable moments. There are many. Uh, most prescient AI concern, question mark. Jeez. While watching this, did you, when did you sort of gulp dryly and go, go, ugh. I mean the whole time, you know, certainly the whole time.

And it is, I actually talk about this fairly regularly with people in my life. But like, it is pretty. Astonishing to be, you know, a sci-fi kid, like growing up reading stories and watching stories about AI and just be, like, living through it. Now, pretty weird time to be alive. I am, I am just like, as per usual, the least one person at the party when people want to talk about. Like, anytime someone mentions chat, like, oh, he's typed this in chat cheap. I like bristle. And I want to be like, have you seen not a single Terminator film? Not a single one. Not a one. What's happening? Oh, man. What's your pick for this?

Because there are a lot of contenders, both small and large. I think this wound up being sort of like the big one for me. When Nathan, in a myriad of times that he sort of speechifies, he says, look, the arrival of strong artificial intelligence has been inevitable for decades. The variable is when, not if. So I don't see Ava as a decision, just an evolution, right? This is my pick too. That inevitable question is what comes up again and again, again,

when people sort of shrug their shoulders over like the creep of AI into like our various culture, like corners of our culture, into our art, into this, that, and the other thing, they're sort of like, well, it's going to happen. So why worry about it? And I'm like, that's what, what? That's how they get you. I sound like a raving lunatic. I completely understand.

but I'm just sort of like, yeah, that idea that's sort of like, well, it's happening. So why are you fighting it? It's just happening. It's going to happen. It's been happening. Why are you worried about it? I'm like, because we could stop. Could we not stop it?

Could we not turn it off and stop it, you know? I don't know if there's going to be like, I'm not worried about it. I'm just curious if people listening to this who just like love, you know, using generative AI to make casual art or to type a cover letter for them on a resume and chat GPT or whatever it is, we'll listen to this and feel judged or I don't know if people who are deeper into tech will listen to this and say this sounds like ignorant when like, you know, you don't understand the layers of AI. That's all possibly true. This has just been like a prevailing concern for me in my day to day. It is like actually something I think about all the time

where we live in these like extraordinary times and it feels like we're on the precipice of something and I don't know how to stop it. So when I hear Nathan say it has been inevitable for decades, I just, it does, it feels out of my, out of my hands. So I don't know. What do you think, though? Yeah, no, I picked the same conversation

that outdoor drink and chat that they have after session five for the same reason, that sense of inevitability and the fact that the person who is voicing that sentiment is not presenting that as a, but I fought it anyway, but rather like, so why not me?

Why? I might as well be the one who does it. You know, and that leads right into him saying, you know, the man who is doing this, the man who made Ava, the man who has created, has created artificial intelligence, has done this thing saying,

feel bad for yourself, man, right? It's the clip you picked to open the pot. Yeah. Like, he has actually the awareness of the fact that they are, as he says, all set for extinction. And yet he moves forward. And, you know, in that conversation, that's when Caleb quotes Oppenheimer and says, you know, I become death of destroyer of worlds. But then we build in short order to a completely hammered Nathan all. on the couch, like basically weeping and tears, drunkenly muttering to himself. Another quote you've already mentioned, like the good deeds man has done before defend him, the fact that he is drawing that comp between himself and Oppenheimer and knows that he is ushering in something that cannot then be undone. And that will forever alter the face and shape of humanity is, you know, really, really, really harrowing and meant to be.

Yeah, I think this is something that 10 years later I have a deeper understanding of is, like, Nathan, who is a terrible person in a million different ways, but has enough humanity inside of him to have guilt and grief over what he's done. He's done this horrible thing anyway, or this dangerous thing, let's say, anyway, and a number of horrible things also. But the fact that he is constantly trashed, you know, reveals. And like that tech, that tech billionaire preoccupation with like personal health that goes sort of hand in hand with this, you know, I can put a stopper on death. Like I can defeat death. I can become this like perfected. I can quantify my life with tech and this, that and the other thing. But I just, watching his own heartbreak inside of this, he is the villain of the piece,

but he is also heartbroken at his own complicity. Which is much more disturbing than actually if he had no mustache twirling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. A couple quick runners up, I would put out, this is a subtler one, I think, but like in session two, that basically the moment where you feel Ava turned the tables on Caleb, that idea, of the computers, the machines seeking to learn about us. It's just like, that is literally what is happening right now, right? So that is obviously intense to watch.

And then, you know, this also has already come up today. This is not about, this is not specific to AI, but the data mining thing is just so disturbing. Like, it's just so disturbing to confront when you're watching the movie. really harrowing. Let's go to a lighter topic. We're going to pivot now to FitWatch

a house of our staple. The sub-title for this category is who draped organic cotton or tank-topped the best. As is the case of all sort of like near future sci-fi. The costume design is like just off enough.

And it's not really Caleb and it's not really Ava. obviously. Ava's wearing set that feels like retro. But this is where we can look at Nathan and we can look at Kyoko, unless you have, unless you want to nominate one of Caleb's button downs for this. So Mallory, what's your, what's your fit watch choice here? Okay. So I have, I have two contenders, though, mostly in this category. I'm just hoping I get to hear your tape.

You're a little, a little wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson, TM, given that we get to to pan by all of the wink contenders when Ava's getting dressed. Okay, so I have one Nathan pick and then one actually shared Nathan Caleb pick. I'll start with the latter. I love, because when we arrive in the film, like, we arrive with Caleb, decked out in a suit, when he's conducting his initial business, he's still on the button down. I love AF. And Nathan, when we meet him, is a.

sweaty mess. He's been working out. He's in the tank top. He's in like the super long gym shorts. Yeah. And he just clearly couldn't give a fuck, right? He's like, I didn't bother to like shower or get dressed or do anything to greet you. Like you've received me how I choose for you to receive me. Tells us so much about both of them. And so my pick then is the moment where that flips for the first time, which is I love after session one when they're sharing a beer and Kail. for the first time is dressed down. He's gone for being Mr. Fancy Pants. This is like the most important moment

of my life. I'm in a gray T-shirt. I'm wearing jeans and I'm just here to say like holy fuck. And then Nathan has actually made himself like more presentable. He's got that quite fashionable. He looks like he just wandered out of a Todd Snyder catalog. Like very fashionable black

knit polo. Yeah. And the tight fitting gray slacks. And that inversion in how they are presenting themselves to each other, especially on a rewatch, it makes me feel so keenly how Caleb is falling into Nathan's trap. So, like, I love what their respective presentations tell us about that in their states of mind. My second contender, of course, I just, the sweater that Nathan gets murdered in is iconic. It is.

Like, it's not quite Chris Evans and Knives Out level. There's no like chunky cable knit. But it is this beautiful, this luscious color, this lovely cream, wonderful material. I'll have to imagine it cost a fucking fortune. It's like somehow simultaneously hugging his pecks, his muscles, but also very loose fitting. And it's a perfect thing for him to be wearing to basically say, like, I'm here for the clean living now, you know, no more booze. Brown rice, middle water. And it is just the perfect sweater to get.

murdered in. I mean, the way that that sushi knife slides through it before sliding into his body and the way that the blood stains expand, much like the ripples he has made in the history of humankind. It's just perfect. So those are my picks. What about you? I got to go with the babe Kiyoko. And I got to say that like the various, like, she's largely pantless and draped in just like, white satin or silk with like a black detailing and there's like a few different looks they're all sort of similar she's also often naked but like she's been dressed as like a sex fetish object for Nathan that is true but there is just something slightly sci-fi about it about the cut of the various tunics that she wears that gives that that along with because like nothing Caleb wears

says sci-fi to me. Some of Nathan's knitwear, like the deep V of like, you know, a sweater or the drape of a sweater. Like his tank tops aren't screaming future, but like the knitwear does. And then her silk and satin, flowy tunics seem very like retro-futurism to me.

And I think she looks iconic in them. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the, unless you have commentary coming into future category, what did you think of the wig that Ava chose? You know, she's got the little picture on the wall. I'm very curious. If this is based on Caleb's porn research.

If he's like, I love a messy pixie. And they're like, that's the one. Sold? I don't know. I have some questions about it. I do love the, you know, that they let Alicia Viconder sort of like in her own styled hair at the end. It's supposed to be a wig, obviously, on Ava, but like, that's her hair and it looks

beautiful. Okay. On Nathan line, you could most easily believe was spoken by a tech billionaire in 2025. This was another really rich text. I do have my top pick, but there are a lot of contenders here. Okay. What do you want to start? start with. So I, and I think my pick, it's a nice, like a button on the conversation that we were

just having about. Why does Nathan do these things and how does he see himself? This is going with the like the God conversation. It's mine too. How could it not be? This is exceptional. Yeah. And okay. So before we share the the quote that we have actually picked, let's just offer as a reminder. The prior exchange. Yeah. What was actually said. Nathan has misremembered. Here is that exchange. Because if that test is passed, you're a dead center of the greatest scientific event in the history of man. That's what Nathan says. And Caleb replies, if you've created a conscious machine, it's not the history of man. That's the history of gods.

Joanna, how does Nathan remember that? He's about to get misquoted. But we should say that Caleb is definitely trying to suck up in that moment. You know what I mean? And it's a different Caleb who says that than the Caleb in this scene. when Nathan says, you know, I wrote down that other line you came up with, the one about how if I've invented a machine with consciousness, I'm not a man, I'm a god.

Caleb goes, I don't think that's exactly what I, Nathan says. I just thought, fuck, man, that is so good. We could tell the story, you know, I turned to Caleb, and he looked up at me, and he said, you're not a man, you're a God. Kel goes, yeah, but I didn't say that. So good. You're not a man, you're a God. Incredible.

Yeah, I could definitely see that coming out of a lot of notable figures that we know. But also, we've said it a million times, but it's worth repeating. I'm on brown rice and middle of water. Yeah, definitely. Seems like something could come out of a tech billionaire's face. Anything else you want to highlight here? A couple others. I think, you know, those are the most fun, certainly.

I think the first conversation they have in the kitchen, just right in those early moments. This feels very like, oh, yeah. Maybe this is how this interaction would actually go. Caleb, I'm just going to throw this out there so it's said, okay? You're freaked out. I am? Yeah, you're freaked out by the helicopter in the mountains, in the house, because it's all so super cool.

And you're freaked out by me, by meeting me, by having this conversation in this room at this moment, right? And I get that. I get the moment you're having. But, dude, can we just get past that? Can we just be two guys? Like, I would say this. When I have, I've yet to have the pleasure of touring your home.

And when I come to your home for the first time, will you be like, I get that you're overwhelmed? Because it's all super cool. No. Here's what I'm going to say to you instead. Here's my next contender. I'm going to say to you when I take you into a windowless room. Yeah. There's a reason there are no windows in this room.

Uh-huh. Yeah. This building is in a house. research facility buried in these walls, is enough fiber optic cable to reach the moon and lasso it. I have another one, and this is as part of his

seduction of Caleb, which he will later go back on when we find out. As he says, no, twice, he does not think Caleb is very smart. He says, come on, Caleb. You don't think I don't know what it's like to be smart, smarter than everyone else, jockeying

for position. You got the love. light on you, man. Not lucky. Chosen. Fucking great. Duchbag. You got the light on you. It was so good. You got the light on you, man. Every dude and man and bro is just like delicious. It's like, it's really perfect. It's one of the great master strokes of the film that like initially you have to understand how Caleb would be really flattered by that and swept up by it like in the NDA scene, right? When he's like, well, can I tell you, Caleb, you don't have to sign it. You know, we could spend the next few days just shoot and pull.

getting drunk together, bonding, and what you discover what you've missed out on in about a year, you're going to regret it for the rest of your life. Where do I sign? You have to understand

how he would be swept up in that, but then how quickly he would start to feel like that he's just subsumed in Nathan's bullshit. Yeah. And not have that happen with Ava. That with Ava,

he is just utterly enraptured. Like, we have to feel that fork in the road for him, and we really do. And so those lines from Nathan are just a huge, huge part of it. Delicious. Wonderful.

Brutalest boys assemble. Dreamiest architecture slash interior design moment. That one goes out to Mr. Sean Fennessee in honor of all the poured concrete that is part of this particular splendid construction. You already mentioned the windowless rooms. We alluded to this hotel in Norway.

Juvet Landscape Hotel in Norway used in succession and in and then also the use that, a combination of that, a cool, really cool house nearby, which gives us like the living room set where the glass

sort of follows the rocks down, and then the underground bunker stuff was filmed at Pinewood Studios. That's like studio stuff. No windows because we're in a studio actually. This was your category. This is what you wanted to do.

Mallory Rubin, what is the dreamiest architecture slash interior design moment of the film. So I do think that part of the reason, obviously it's like mostly about the story and the idea is part of the reason that this movie became so instantly iconic is the setting. Like it is just astonishing and when it's like singular.

Yeah. To the point where actually like when they're there in succession, it's like, oh my God, I've never seen anything like, wait. Is this like, where are you in the accent? He's not going to house. Did you check the basement to see if Caleb's skeleton is there? Do you think Caleb got out? I like to think so.

Yeah, I think so, right? Either he figured something out or like, I don't know, I guess, you know, Nathan really goes out of his way to make sure we understand that, like, no one's come into that compound. But at a certain point, wouldn't, like, someone from Blue Book be like, Nathan hasn't checked in. And Caleb should have water. They have the mini fridges of water.

They find the bodies and they find him. Perhaps. Yes, perhaps, unless Ava has constructed some sort of, you know, digital excuse as to why he's not there. She's got Nathan, like, checking in every few days. And that's a wrap on our guy, Caleb. That feels more likely, actually. I'm not mad. We didn't see it because I like to go back to sort of our paired scenes, our favorite scenes that I meant to highlight earlier.

you picked this wonderful monologue and the sequence with Ava is dialogueless and all of that is just like visual. And I like it that way. But there is a part of me that wants to know what she said to the helicopter pilot. Instead of that ginger nerd, you're picking up me, one of the most beautiful women you've ever seen. And you didn't drop me off, but you're picking me up. How did I get here? Don't worry about it. Here we go.

He was probably just like, come on in. Yeah. He was like, no problem. No questions. Come on it. I wanted to ask you, something you proposed and I shut down, I'm so sorry, was like a category about sort of real-time theories, mostly because, like, I couldn't remember what my real-time theories. My guesses while I was watching the movie as to, like, what might happen. But I will say, I do remember being genuinely, like, surprised that she didn't take him and then say, no, no, that's right.

That's right that she should have left him there. Yeah, I mean, it's that, the triple whammy, the triple twist at the end, realizing that Nathan knew the plan. Like, realizing that he had put the camera in and had watched that entire conversation and you're like, oh, my God. Then, another twist, Caleb assumed he was watching. I already did it. Caleb had already done it all. And then the third, like, oh, my God. she's not taking him with her.

She locked him in. I guess he's going to die now, too, just looking out at Nathan's corpse and Kyoko's corpse. Tough one. My other, so that's like the, yeah, the twist at the end, the kind of rapid fire, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, it's just really satisfying and memorable.

On the theory front, there was one thing I was interested to ask you if you had also thought or considered at one point while watching it. But I'll, I have that, Oh, in another category, so I'll save that. In terms of the architecture and the setting, my favorite thing about it is an area that, I mean, obviously the whole thing is just gorgeous,

gorgeous, gorgeous. But my favorite area specifically is one you already mentioned. It's the stairway through the great outdoors into the living room where the house has been built into the rock face. And it's this melding of the natural and the unnatural that feels like the perfect setting for this story and this thing that Nathan is doing. Right?

Like he has moved beyond the natural order and inserted himself and tech and industry into just the rhythm and flow of life. It also just like is one of my favorite things always when, part of the outside or even part of a building, it could even be part of a building, but that used to be outside is incorporated into the inside. I feel like I've mentioned this before in a pot actually, but on the Syracuse campus, one of my favorite spots was the

Maxwell Eggers building. There are going to be like two people listening to this who were like, fuck yeah! Where an addition, Eggers was built on to Maxwell and it's like the outside wall of Maxwell, this old, beautiful red brick just became part of the inside, like, hallway that you would walk through. And I used to have these really, like, kind of intense responses to walking past it. I would, like, put my hand on it and think about, like, all of the history that had taken place in front of that. And then it had just been incorporated into this other space. I just, I don't know, like, I find something about that so interesting. So that's my pick. I just find it so, like, it's, it stimulates something for me mentally, and it's also just, like, astonishing to look at.

There are some houses up here in Northern California, I'm sure elsewhere in the world, but up here in Northern California that are sort of built around redwood trees, like a redwood tree, either managed to get it inside the house somehow or just sort of like orchestrated. I stayed in this one place of a Mendocino recently where the whole place was just like in the round. It was just like one long in the round house around this old growth redwood tree, which I thought was so cool. I love your pick. My main thought, specifically the glass wall that follows a sort of like, you know, trajectory of the rocks in the living room, which then has like a gold edging to it. And that part, again, is from a real person's house in Norway. I was like, you're so near a glacier.

How insulated is that? Did you have to get in there with like some cock to sort of like make sure the weatherproofed There is a lot of wood chopped up there for that fire place to keep things toasty. My answer is similar to yours about the outside being inside. I love trees and doors, whether it's endurance rooms in Rings of Power or Avengers HQ. I love when a tree is indoors. So, you know, it's depressing that Ava is like staring at this indoor tree, obviously. And then Caleb is, you know, stuck with it later.

But like, but there's something beautiful about growing a tree inside. So I loved it. Her drawing was really great. Her drawing up her little courtyard. Very sad, but really quite good. Her drawing of him. Amazing. Okay.

Sad. Most disturbing moment. I have a few. That's another crowded field. It's an upsetting movie. I had laid on one. You already mentioned it. So I'll just start with this.

I will say when the sushi knife slides into him like butter. Would it be that easy to step? Someone? No. Maybe that's not a question I should ask. I feel like if you know. It's a very sharp knife though. If you know exactly where the ribs are,

know how to get between the ribs, perhaps, you know. But yeah, just the way that that underlines, you know, like he's, he's a, he's bashed. the robotic arm of Eva. So we understand, and we've seen him do other things to the robot. So we understand the fragility of the robot. But the softness of the human that just is like, yeah, neck through a hot butter or that beautiful sushi, kind of sushi that we saw earlier is just an astounding moment.

It's silent slide of the knife into him. Yeah. Okay. I have a few others, but what do you have? What else you have? So I'll also go with something that involves a sharp object and human flesh. Yes. And this is actually where I will hit my...

Your theory thing. Were you wondering this in real time? Caleb's slicing open his own arm to check if he's a robot, to check if he's a machine, which is such an intense and disturbing and deeply upsetting stretch of the film. And part of the reason that I love it is because it feels totally unsurprising by the time he does this. Like, my experience watching the movie is that I am wondering as we get to that moment if Caleb is a robot, if that is going to be one of the reveals. And, like, there's just this mounting list of questions and sense that, like, oh, my God, wait, could Caleb be an AI? Like, the first

time that we see him in the back, in the bathroom, and we see his back, and this is before we hear the later story about the car crash, I killed his parents, and how he was in the hospital for a year. My first thought is like, is that where Nathan like stitched his skin together or something? You know, like he just kind of, oh, wait, I wonder, was he built? Was that story about his parents implanted? Is that like a false memory? These people aren't in his life now. Like the number of inquiries that Nathan makes about how the sessions make Caleb feel, obviously, like, I think deliberately is meant to heighten this question in our minds.

certainly when Ava again flips the sessions around and starts asking Caleb questions. In that conversation that Nathan and Caleb have about why did you give her sexuality, they're literally talking about how Caleb was quote programmed. Like both of them, they're using the language

of creation. In the lottery, like I didn't, you know, when are you going to stop with all the lies? Like I didn't win the lottery. I was selected. get that. Not lucky chosen line. That also...

Got the light on you. I made you in my lab. It's like it could be the next line. You know, even when Caleb talks about his earliest memory and he's like, a color, a sound. I don't know. Like, I think part of the beauty and part of what's interesting about it in this larger tapestry of the questions of the film and like, what is consciousness, what is sentience, what is humanity.

It's more interesting to me ultimately that Caleb is a, is a, is a, person is not a machine, but that like all of these things that apply to humanity also apply to creating this thing that will eventually replace it. And so like when I find it rewarding when Caleb starts to think that and to wonder and to doubt his own humanity, and this is right after he has actually discovered the other models in Nathan's. The surveillance thing. Yes, exactly. And like seen Kyoko peel off her, the skin of her torso and the under eye skin. And then he goes and like the way that he starts looking at his own face, like pulling down the flesh under his eye and the mirror, trying to pull out his own tooth. And like there's something about peeling the way he peels that blade out of the razor and the depth that he slices to and the blood pulling and the music.

Like it's not quite the annihilation thrum that inspired a bazillion blogs. but it is like skull-shaking the soundscape in that stretch. And then the way he smears the mirror with blood and smashes it. You know, it's like the insidious thing isn't just creating humanity in a machine. It's making people doubt their own humanity. And that's just like all right there. It's so smart to have that in there for all the reasons you mentioned all the thematic reasons, but also like our dumb theory brain reasons.

Like you and I are Blade Runner fans. And so, like, of course, we're going to watch this and, like, wonder, is he a replicant, like, all that sort of stuff. And so, like, to stave off a decade of people arguing whether or not Caleb himself was a robot, we, like, cut into his flesh. So that's helpful, too. Totally. I don't think Alex Garland thinks that way, but I appreciate the clarity. I will also add the Bluebeard Sequence, the montage of Nathan Beta Testing, the Girls is a Jade. That's my runner up.

Jane saying, why won't you let me out? And then, like, working your arms down to nubs, trying to, like, you know, punch your way out of the room. And then, yeah, when Kyoko peels off her skin. Yeah. Very exciting. So good. It's so good.

The CCTV footage of all of the earlier bottles is so disturbing. This one doesn't feel like it can measure up to the other two that we just talked about. But I will just, I will call out because the power cuts are such a through line of the film, that first power cut, it really does what it needs to do in terms of planting that little seed of terror in you. Like what is going on here? Something bad is going to happen. It's 226. Caleb's jet lagged. You can't sleep.

And then suddenly the room is bathed in red and he can't get out. Right. It's just like both in terms of the plot mechanic and the role that will play, but also just setting a mood. and keeping us really anxious. There are a number of Harbingers early in the film that ultimately bear some very disturbing, distressing fruit. And that's one of them. That first one, you're just like, fuck,

pretty early in the movie and you're like, this is not going to be bad. Something bad's going to happen. And it does. The use of red, because Alex Garland, I mean, 28 days later obviously uses it, but like in men, the way he uses the color red in that movie.

in Civil War. Annihilation is more greens than reds, but he has this way of using a color to just sort of choke you a bit. And the way that they designed that red light, the hellish, you know, we're underground, there's no windows, we're in hell, Nathan is the devil,

you know, there's a seduction, there's a temptation, there's warning, there's event horizon, there's all this stuff happening at the same time. It's amazing. achieved just with a lighting switch. I think that's a great call out. Okay. Favorite musical moment.

It's not really how the dance goes. Probably, let's say other than the dance. Because it's obviously the dance. It's obviously the dance. Let's spend a moment on the dance. Okay. Okay. You're writing pieces about the movie,

you're seeing it early, and then the world sees it. Do you remember what this moment felt like on the internet? I remember this really keenly. This was just such a meaningful meme. It taught me something about like how do I, how to look for what the memes are going to be. Because I remember watching Megalopolis last year,

Rob and I went to a press screening. And as soon as it ended, I turned to Rob and I'm like, that moment where Adam Driver says, in the club, I was like, that is going to be clipped to shit and put everywhere. And lo and behold, it was. And so it's just sort of like, which I actually,

I don't think anyone should intentionally chase it, but it is one of the best things you could do for, because like ex machina, a cerebral sci-fi with sexy looking people is like not the hardest of cells, but not the most obvious cell. But that, the meme, the gifts of the dancing,

was so potent as an advertisement for, this movie. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just like, every time you get to that point in the movie, you're like, wait, what? Every time. Yeah. It's just like, why is this happening? There's something so surreal about it. It's very Milchick and Severance season one. 100%. It's very Westworld. It's very

lynchian. It's very like dream logic. You know what I mean? Especially like the move, all the disco moves are great. There's like behind the scenes. with the choreographer that you can watch. It's really fun. But the one where they're, like, clapping under their legs. Like, that's very, it's almost like, it's, like,

lynchy. It's very, like, grotesque in its own way. Yeah. There's a distortion. On, like, in close proximity to Oscar Isaac being smoother than you could have ever dreamed. Like, we just didn't know what our Oscarizer could do at that point. So, no Yamazuno, like, shout out to her as well. She's amazing.

but like Oscar Isaac with his like liquid hips in that sequence and you're just sort of like I knew you could sing in Inside Lewin Davis but I didn't know you could do this Oscar Isaac and now we know better so yeah and we're the better for it. I want to shout out. Is the runner up Anola Gay? Anola Gay is a great one. They play orchestral movements in the dark song Anola Gay briefly earlier in the movie to give us that like early up and but also just like Ben Salbury and Jeff Burroughs score. They've done all of Alex Garland's films and devs. And I would shout out specifically.

You mentioned after the cutting of the arms, I think that's a good one. I think after Kyoko stabs Nathan and he punches her face off, the score goes crazy. And it's so good. So, yeah, I mean, all the elements have to be here. The performances, the casting, the insistence on casting, actors, we don't have a previous strong association with the location in Norway, the proximity to glaciers, etc. And then the score, like, all of this combined makes this a masterpiece in addition to the ingenious idea of the story and the direction. Um, we're almost done here, man, snarkiest Nathan Barb. Uh, we hate Barb and Stranger Things, but we love a, we love a snarky barb.

Uh, a little bit of a, uh, linguistic poke from Nathan and to Caleb. What do you want to, when do you want to shout out here? Boy. Um, okay. So I'm going with in this was also, there were a lot of. good candidates here. I'm going with in the conversation about why Nathan gave

Ava's sexuality. There are a couple lines in that sequence that I'll just kind of bundle together here. Caleb, what's your type? Of girl? No, of salad dressing. Yeah, of girl! And then we build, we build. Caleb is firing back. He's interrogating, he's poking, he's

disturbed. Of course you were programmed. Nathan says, by nature or nurture or both. And to be honest, Caleb, you're trying to annoy me now because this is your insecurity talking, not your intellect. That is fire. I got to say, brutal, deeply painful, but are you going to use it? Are you going to use it on someone? I feel like I would use it on myself. That sounds like something I would say to myself in the mirror. Yeah, there you go. Reposition it. It is like a, yeah. This is your insecurity talking, not your intellect. Not your intellect. And then they move into the, the, the poly. portion of this exchange, the automatic art portion. Let's make this Star Trek, okay? Engage intellect.

Excuse me? It's just quite rude. I'm going to go, I had Salad dressing line, iconic. I'm also going to go with this. I don't know that it's like a directed attack. It's just so, he's just so over talking to Caleb

when he goes, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters. It's a movie, man. You don't know that movie? A ghost gives Dan Aykroyd oral sex. Wonderful stuff. But it's just like, you don't know Ghostbusters? What are we doing here?

Oh, man. He's like, I can't believe this is the guy I picked to see if Ava could plotter escape. If I have to talk to this ginger nerd for one more, I love gingers, by the way. Me too. We've saved the most important category for last. Steve, will you play this third and final clip, please? And an answer to your real question,

you bet she can fuck. Okay, I just want to preface this. We're about to have a conversation about fuckable robots, which is an important part of ex machina. Let's be clear. But it's also like, there's a disturbing element to it obviously inside of this movie.

So we want to just like put a blanket statement on here as we talk about the fuckable robots of cinema and television and history and whatever. Consent is king. And we're assuming that all of these robots are offering enthusiastic consent for any kind of sexual congress, shall we say. Okay? I just wanted to put that out there. Consent is key. On the, like, I guess before I want to get into that, because I did write that down as a prompt, what's the most?

fuckable robot is it Ava. I just want to shout out a moment. When Ava having dressed, later undresses, and Alicia Veconder with her very graceful, balletic limbs is just peeling off the clothing on her legs. And Caleb is watching me to close up of

his gulp in his throat and his fingers yearning tendrils. you know, trying to get at her through the monitor. I just love that moment because it's like, it's a classic femme fatale tableau. The woman rolls her stockings down. That's like a classic sort of, are you trying to seduce me, Mrs. Robinson sort of mode.

But the twist on it of, we've already seen her walking around in her mesh skin for so much of the movie, but the act of putting clothing on top and then taking it back off becomes this other thing. I just think that's a genius part of the movie. And I love that observation.

And it, you know, then we have to think about what Nathan says to Caleb when Caleb challenges him kind of early. It's like, well, the turning test, like, I shouldn't be able to see her. He's like, no, no, no. You know, the real test is for you to see her and then ask, like, if you can forget that she's a machine. And so then, you know, the act of dressing that is just then furrowing. taking her into the realm of humanity? And can he continue to forget that she's a machine? I love that exchange they have about the gray box.

Great box is talking to each other. Yeah, built to an exchange about a different sort of box. But, you know, she could have been a great box. Hmm. Actually, I don't think that's true. Can you give an example of consciousness at any level, human or animal that exists without a sexual dimension? And then shortly after that,

what imperative does a gray box have to interact with another gray box? Can consciousness exist without interaction? Anyway, sexuality is fun, man. If you're going to exist, why not enjoy it? What? You want to remove the chance of her falling in love and fucking? This is just top-tier gaslighting from Nathan here. Turning this around on Caleb.

Like, you don't want her to fall in love and enjoy sexual pleasure? What's wrong with you? The way he talks, then he talks explicitly about the sensors inside of her. There's an opening. The concentration of sensors. You engage you in the right way. It creates a pleasure response. Is Nathan engaging them the right way?

I doubt it. Oh, no. Kiyoko is not feeling any kind of pleasure that I can be sure of. But like the fact that he built them to have like, you know, pleasure and then the way he shittily controls it. Fascinating. But the way he frames it that way. I love that. The gaslighting of like, you could fuck her and she would enjoy it.

She would feel it. She'd feel great. She'd enjoy it. She'd love it. This from the guy who builds them, not. not only to look like this, but then conducts all of his initial interviews with them and the nude.

Like, yeah. Okay, Nathan. I will say on the seductive front, like, in terms of the way that the movie shoots, Kyoko and Ava talking to each other, this sort of, like, close up on their, like, lips, their perfect lips and all this sort of thing, this, like, conversation we can't hear.

Yeah, the whispering in the ear. What are they saying? And it's just shot like The fingertip, like gracing and arm Yeah, it's shot seductively But like on the precipice of them About to absolutely wreck Nathan Which is great stuff

Okay, outside of This film Do you have any fuckable Androids or robots or whatever That you would like to talk about Other than I'm sorry, What did you call Donald Gleason's character in Black Mirror? A.I. Hash of the non-breathing

fuck stick who won't quit. Because he's just like, in that episode, he's just like... An auditory experience, but also a visual one. Go to the YouTube if you want to see what Valerie just did. Okay. Oh, Bees is here with us. I'm so glad. Bees, bees, bees. He'd be on my list, A.I. Ash, for sure.

Let's see. So this is, again, a crowded field of, you know, hot robots. Boy, I think top of the list, has to be Rachel from Blade Runner in this household and on this podcast. Gotta be tough, tough to beat, depending on where you land on the Decker question, then I would, of course.

Obviously. Of course. Throw him in there. What about Joy from the follow-up Blade Runner? Yeah. I mean, everyone in Blade Runner, really. Yeah. Joy is, whew.

You know what? that movie's fucking underrated. I agree. I really agree. Great one. Denise? History will prove us right. Yeah, it will.

David? David is such a good one. I am mad at myself that I didn't put David down. Michael Fosbender. That is incredibly important. The scene in Covenant, where it's two of them and a, a recorder and they're like playing seductive recorder music with a suggestive shadow on the wall? Oh my God.

Incredible. I dare not. Six from Battlestar. Come on. Of course. Obviously. How can we not include six? Has to happen.

I'm going to not say really any. I don't want to like spoil anything from that one's fair game, but I won't I won't pick any other. Battle Star people. Battle Star. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's good. It's a rich field.

Jude Law is Gigolo Joe from AI? Let the record state that I asked Adam. Do you have any other thoughts on this? And that was his suggestion. I feel like Adam and I are often on the same day. They're aligned. Yeah. Yeah.

It's true. Jude law is Gigolo Joe from AI. I love that performance. That's a messy movie, but Jude law is incredibly good. And Westworld is also a rich text of, of, fuckable hosts. Again, consent is key, so let's just assume that they want to have sex with you

and can, are capable of making that decision. I say Tendiwey Newton in Westworld as Maeve the Saloon Madam is right up there at the top of the list. Excellent stuff from her.

Great one. And then just to get like a little freakier, let's do it. I submit to you Maria the Android from Metropolis, the icon, the original. There's just something about her, you know? I love this. I love this.

I thought you were going to say just to get a little freakier, vision, but not as Paul vet me in this human form. Sure, vision. Yeah. I would. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Of course. We're sorry, Westview. Yeah. It's worth it. We could go on and on. I mean, we probably at some point, honestly, have to do an entire pod on Hot Robots. Maybe a Hot Robot draft.

Filed away for the future. All right. The Hot Robots. Sounds so good, but only if we make the Midnight Boys play with us. Okay. Oh, my God. That would be incredible.

Okay. Shout out to Giglo Joe and to David and to Rachel and all the other fuckable robots that we mentioned here today. And, you know, just X-Mylo. Makina, if you listen to all of this and you haven't seen the film, boy. Watch this film. Check it out. It's so good.

Thank you to date to Steve Allman. Steve is like really holding down the fort on the pod today. He is really doing it. So Steve, you're the best. You're on the soundboard. You're doing everything. We love you. We would never invite you to our weird little home and have a robot try to seduce you and take over the world.

promise. Boo. Steve's like, is she a rat in a maze? Steve's like, side me up. Damn, sick invite, guys.

Thanks to show me at dinner on the social for clipping probably some unhinged shit from us. What's new. Thank you to John Richter

in general for all of his work on this podcast. Thank you are to Arjuna Ramgopal who is knee deep in Super Bowl stuff

and still has time for us. He's the best, and we will see you next week for our mailbag. Hobbiton Dragons at gmail.com. Send us your mailbag questions. See you soon. Bye.