House of R - ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 10 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

The time has come! Now that the season finale of ‘House of the Dragon’ is upon us, Mal and Joanna give their thoughts on the exciting conclusion (05:40). Then they begin their monstrous deep dive into all of the consequential events that conclude this season (12:35). Later they give their episode awards! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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If we don't mind our own histories, it would do the same to us. Targaryen must understand this to be king or queen. Into the ringer verse here on the ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Storm's End, but also to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me the simple truth is this, we have more podcasts than Agon. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson.

Oh, hi, Mallory. I just want to let you know that in the mailbag today, instead of all of our emails coming by Raven, they came by teenager on Dragonback because it just sends more of a statement, you know? What could go wrong? I'm sure everything was fine. Go wrong.

Joe, we are here today, of course, to dive and deep into the House of the Dragon finale, the Black Queen, written by Ryan Condal, co-show runner, directed by Greg Yatenas, but before we make our way to the Dragon Mont for some of the hilarious. Programming reminders. As always,

the Midnight Boys, Poo! I'll be with you tomorrow to break down episode eight of Andor. And then Joe and I will be back with you on Friday for our Andor

deep dive. Oh, but guess what? Twist, we're going to be back with you before then because we're doing another hot deep pod. On Thursday,

we have a bonus House of the Dragon pod coming for you. Today's pod will feature our usual deep dive into the episode and our episode awards. And then on Thursday, we will be doing season awards and we will be taking the book look ahead segment that we usually do at the end of this pod. Really having some fun with that. We're going to do a little way too early

look ahead to season two. Talk about some of the things that we are most eagerly anticipating. Are you suggesting a book-informed theory corner? Oh, they stole my heart. Boy. if you have some theories for that corner or any corner, send them. Joe, how can our wonderful listeners do exactly that? How can they reach us? How can they follow the pod? Gather your local teen. Put them on a dragon.

Send that dragon to hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. And though rings of power hath ended and house the dragon hath also ended, we will be still be reading that email. We've already gotten some great emails for Andor, which is what we're covering. We've heard from some people saying they're going to miss us. We're not going anywhere. We're still here covering all kinds of fandom stuff.

Always. Please journey with us into other fictional universes. We never leave this feed. Phantom does not sleep. We are always here. Come hell or high Thanksgiving. So we'll be here. And you can always reach us, Hobbits and Dragons at g-mail.com.

That's right. Also, follow the pod. If you wonder, hey, what might you be covering in the future? The best way to find out is just to follow the pod because then it'll be right there in your feed. And also, follow the ring or verse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're everywhere. TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, all of it. Okay.

Last programming reminder is, of course, as always, our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature every single place. a lot detail from House of the Dragon season one finale. All of hot D-U-to-date, anything from Game of Thrones is on the table. On the book front, as always, we will be incorporating canon for both the Song of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood throughout our chat today for lore insights, historical context, parallels, etc. Anything that gets into future events in Fire and Blood will be in our demarcated, separate

book look-ahead chat, which will be coming to you on Thursday. All righty. Joanna Robinson. Yes. It is time for our opening snapshot. It is time to rally the realm. I can miss these musical cues for our dragon pods. Steve, can you give us some musical cues for our galaxy far far away?

Thank you. Working on them now. Joe, as Bobby B would say, I got a couple. Quickwaw! for you. Overall thoughts on this finale. Yeah. And your overall thoughts on this first season of hot D?

I'm gonna miss saying hot D on a weekly basis, obviously. No need to stop. No need to stop. And or just brimming with hot D. So I yeah, so I really liked this finale. As we discussed with Chris on Talk the Thrones, like I'm a big fan of a lot of things

that they accomplished in this finale. We have some questions, comments and concerns, also in the mix here. But for the most part, I came out of it really encouraged about what the future of the show might be. This is something we always talk about. Like, not only how do we feel about this thing here, but what track it's laying for the future of this story? And I think, you know, to Chris's point on Talk to Thrones, when he's like, I wonder if we'll look back at House of the Dragon is like, you're zero of the show. I think it's possible. We're going to detail as we go through our deep dive here, some of those.

moments, you know, when people are asking, why are we hopping and skipping through time this way? Or, you know, the disorientation that some people felt, especially non-book readers, I think we can highlight some of those moments that once you've seen the whole picture of season one felt crucial to hit in order for this all to land the way it did here at the end. So I share some of those season hopping concerns. We've talked about it throughout. But at the end of the day, I can't think of a better solution than the one that they came up with. Honestly, I have no fix for it. So that's where I am.

So I love, you and I were talking about this a little bit last night. We'll talk about it a little bit more on Thursday, but it's hard for me to separate my enjoyment of this season from my enjoyment of, like, talking about it with you on this podcast and the, like, larger communal experience of our, like, listeners and all of that. We'll save the tears for Thursday. But like, try so hard not to just turn into a blubbering mess telling you how much I love you today. But I will do that on Thursday.

But that, you know, even without, even separated from my adoration for you is the feeling of hopping on Twitter on a Sunday night and like everyone's there and the joint is jumping and the memes are flying. And like, you know, and then on Monday morning like TikTok on Sunday night, Monday morning, just hot, fresh, exciting content. You know, so I am going to miss, you know, along with thoughtful deep dive essays from, you know, critics and Martin scholars and stuff like that. So, you know, I, that is as much a part of my enjoyment as the physical show itself. Mallory Rubin, what do you have to say about this episode and this season of television? I feel very similarly. I quite enjoyed the finale overall and am really eager to break it down in depth and detail with you today. I'm so heartbroken that the end of this hot D. Season 1 journey is nearing, but it never really ends, Joe.

And that's the lovely thing is that we've gotten to go back to Westrose together, share this world together. I knew that I missed talking about Game of Thrones, but I don't think I really had processed how fully I was longing for that again. And it has just been so wonderful to return to this world and share the story. Was this a perfect season of TV? It was not.

And I am fascinated to revisit it in the future, both season one now complete, but also certainly in the context of future of subsequent installments in seasons, when we can assess that is it season zero question and really look at at the pace, I'm with you. I've thought so often about the time jumping and I think that it led to some real conundrums along the way.

But the things that it gave us, I'm not sure I'd make the trade off of losing those. So I certainly liked the way that this finale gave us a, as Sipachuk put it in the inside of the episode, a sister episode to episode nine, episode nine to nine. episode nine did not work nearly as well for me as this finale, but I think that processing them as these twin pillars, as Sarsie and the High Sparrow would say, helps give this season a more cohesive conclusion. And obviously we are propelled now into the dance,

into season two and beyond. And I just cannot wait to share it with you. On the subject of returning to Thrones after you and I spent so long studying it, loving it, all that sort of stuff, And then the final season, you know, through some cold water on the larger Thrones conversation, right? Pain. Pain. So to come back into this world to, like, have all that scholarship, like, you know, resurface in my brain.

And it reminded me of this, of this Martin quote that I love from a song of Mice and Fire. And I think this is a larger sort of thesis statement for you and me as we cover shows. Stories are like old friends. You have to visit them from time to time. So to come back and like spend time with our friend, which is this story that we've spent years thinking about and loving, has been a real gift. The old nan quotes to Bran in A Game of Thrones, the stories are. And that idea that they wait for you is just like one of my absolute favorite things.

And what a joy it has been to fall back into the text in that larger world. Like I can't wait to do a reread, revisiting fire and blood, was such a treat. And all this prophecy, all this prophecy talk, Joe. Can't wait to revisit a Song of Ice and Fire with that in mind, my goodness. What did we get this week?

Omen's and portents? Send them text to David and tell them it's signs and portents. You know, I feel good about our decision to stick with Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com, but if we were going to make a change. Signs and portents.

There'd only be one. And then maybe one appropriate. Plots and schemes. Lots and keeps. Keeps and plots. All right, Joe. It's time for the finale deep dive. It is time to head into the Dragon Pit.

Scree, I'm going to miss you most of all. Oh, boy. By the way, folks at home don't know this, but Mallory and Steve know this. We got this incredible email from a listener whose small child has listened to so many episodes of this podcast that she does the Mallory's. dragons. There's this video of her sitting in her car seat doing the Mallory Dragon Screech. It's astonishing stuff. Mallory, how do you feel about your legacy? Molding Young Minds. What an honor. Joe. Yeah. It's the finale. Do you think that when I say in three, two, one, that we don't want to miss a thing. Steve will have a musical cue ready for us. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Steve? You get a breakout in song? No? I don't. Okay. Had to try one more time. Did the Tyler estate send a cease and desist? No season D's just yet. No season D's. All right. We are, of course, going to run through this episode chronologically, scene by scene, beat by beat, and we will thus begin where the episode begins on Dragonstone

at the painted table with Luke and Reneer. A lot of Luke right away, really priming us for the long. to come. But Joe, before we see Luke running his hand along the painted table, along Drift Mark, thinking about his future inheritance, the fact that we zoom in on that painted table itself felt like such a fitting visual entry point for this episode and this point of the series, a link, of course, to Targaryen history. Agon the Conqueror's Painted Table. It's an embodiment of this burden that Renira has inherited with the prophecy, what is weighing on her all episodes, shaping her outlook and her thought process, the realm united, readying for what is to come, and what is the first place we see?

We enter on winterfall. We enter in the north. And of course, it's also the signaled viewers of how big the show is going to get. This table was just so expertly deployed and what an incredibly stunning visual element when it illuminates. later in the episode. I mean, that was remarkable, but very cool opening note here. If you want to, yeah, if you want to go back to listen to our interview with Decorator Claire, she talked about the painted table and how they wanted to, like, do something very different. We should say it's so different from, you know, like, these shows like conceivably,

believably hook up together, except for, you know, they decided to completely redesign the paint table. I'm not mad, but the idea that it's dragon glass with carvings into it that are illuminated as the fire lights up from below is a brilliant idea. I mean, I basically did that interview with her so that I could find out what was going on with the dragon orgy. The same pastries and the small balls, but like she threw in this little painted table detail for free. So you can go back and listen to that. But now we have something to think about when we think of the painted table other than seeing Stanis and Melisandra create little, little smoky Stanley on top of it. So that's nice.

A little smoky. There's this line from Thrones that my friend and I always say to each other, which is a Shay line where she goes, lemon cakes, you love lemon cakes to Sensa. And I think about that all the time, anytime the show gives us something, you know, so it's like Winterfell, you love Winterfell. Here you go, viewers. Also, there are like some eagle-eye viewers have pointed out a few errors on the table, including the inaccuritism that Summerhall is on the table,

because Summer Hall has not been built yet. Summer Hall specifically, I have to wonder if that's just like a little nod to the Summer Hall disaster, it's a huge conflagration. Tragedy, yeah. That is related to trying to make dragons work for you, trying to hatch some dragons.

So I wonder if that's there intentionally to be like, hey, hey, this is what the Targaryians do. They play with fire all the time. Fire of blood. Constantly. I'm out of it. Joe, Luke is standing by this painted table

and running his hand over Driftmark. He's really fretting about Corliss dying, a narrator. He does not. And becoming Lord of the Tides. This was one of the things that we talked about at our book look ahead when we were breaking down the Drift Mark episode

in that conversation between Corliss and Luke and how, like, tragic it was to know that Luke's demise was going to go to come and he was never going to have this future where everyone else died around him because his death is such a his is the first kickoff for the dance to come we must not forget lyman beesbury but yes uh never never will this podcast forget lyman and his death via small ball god's is being good oh please miss you bud that made me sad i know me too oh boy oh boy that made me sad.

The burden of this inheritance, Joe, the way it's weighing on Luke. How did this play for you, not only for Luke specifically, but another kiddo in this universe going full job so, saying he doesn't want it, the burden of something

that is being passed down from the prior generation to him, much as they're about to discuss, Reneira inherited something from her father that she was not initially ready for. Yeah, I loved this. I love this as a really, So, you know, when you're a book reader or you're spoiled on something or whatever, then

sometimes you watch a story with rather than being fully immersed. Maybe if you're sick in the head like I am, you're trying to do like calculations in the writers. They were thinking they need a few moments with Reneer and Luke throughout so that we really understand what it means for Reneer to lose Luke, like when you die. So throughout the season, you could see all the tender moments between Reneer and Jason and Luke, and Jaff is there as well, I guess. And I thought it was just really smart to open this episode with this and to have the cover

of Luke's uncertainty. It's not just like, they just found a really organic way for Reneer and Luke to have this beautiful talk about what connects them, what their differences are, thinking about Reneira and how the idea of motherhood and being a leader are. of inextricably connected for her in a way that, you know, I don't think we would ever accuse that of being true of Vassaris. So I think that I loved, I loved this interaction. I thought it was really rich for setting the tone for the episode. I agree. And I think also that that moment when Luke tells Reneer, like, I'm not like you. I'm not as perfect as you are. And we've just

spent these 10 episodes watching the number of life-defining moments where Renera has really felt like that is not true. Either what she feels about herself, what somebody else feels about her, has made her feel about herself. And this larger question of how your identity and sense of self orientes you inside of this larger working mechanism and machine was like really at the fore there. It made you feel the passage of time, I thought, in a helpful effective way as opposed to like a disorienting, jarring way. And that moment where Renira says to Luke, we don't choose our destinies, Luke, it chooses us. I was so fascinated by this.

This idea of choice and destiny is something we return to often across the number of stories we discuss. And once again, if you only joined us for House of the Dragon, come here us talk about other stories. We're with you every week. Particularly, like I'm always interested in this idea. When are choice and destiny in conflict? When can they coexist? How? But I think particularly rich storytelling vein for a character like Renira in this context.

Because Renira is a character who is so determined to assume agency and reshape and change the world around her, which is, I think, inherently linked to the idea of choice, action. But is carrying this big, heavy, looming thing. And so the idea of destiny, of fate, of something that is bigger than just the step that you take that day is always top of mind for her. And I love when characters have both of those orienting principles pushing them forward at once. Something like conflict in the human heart? George's fave, Jill. George's fave.

I want to go back to the idea of Luke calling her perfect, like a moment that I actually literally gassed up because it reminded me, you know, speaking of other things that we've talked about in that. episode of Rings of Power, episode 6th, how kind of healing it was to watch all these men sort of send heart eyes in the direction of Galadriel because she was just like this fearsome warrior to them. So to see Renira through the eyes of Luke and for him to call her perfect was I got really emotional about it. And I think that later, the inside the episode interviews have ranged in quality, I think it's safe to say. But Emma Darcy on this episode was some of my favorite commentary on House of the Dragon that I've ever heard. And when they were talking a lot about the way in which motherhood for Rainira has helped her find her tribe, we'll talk about this a little bit more later.

But so that idea for Renier and also the idea that being a mother for Renier was something Renier was afraid of, something, you know, And so for her to find this strength and peace in motherhood and how that's not something she chose, something that she was sort of pushed into, but what it resulted in for her, all of that I think is in the soup here when Reneira, at least the way that Emma is performing her, the way that Reneira is thinking about choice and destiny and motherhood all sort of wrapped up into one. Absolutely. And that moment where Reneera says, like, because, Because Luke is saying, well, you had the choice.

You told us that Grand Tire gave you the choice. And this idea that it was a frightening thing, but also the way that Reneira's view and understanding of the idea of duty shifted, like, it fits for her character. It fits inside of this family unit she's building. It makes us think of the prior exchanges conflicts with Alicant and their respective views on duty and how they often thought those were in conflict with each other because they don't know everything that's going on. the inner lives of each other as no characters do.

That's also such a present thing in this episode. And I think that, like, the tribe insight was really powerful for a lot of different reasons, but in part because this loneliness is through line of the season and very present here again and becomes very present in the ensuing scenes in this episode for Renera. Lost, death, everything that happens with Damon, etc. And to have a moment like this where Renera is reaching out and saying, sweet boy and trying to guide and comfort her son and saying, puzzlingly to us,

but still saying that, Hey, Vasaris, he always helped me. Sarah's definitely helped me all the time. Definitely didn't just stick me on cup bearer duty. Sweet boy. Sweet boy.

Lemon cakes, you love lemon cakes. Sweet boy makes me think of Catlin with Bran, right? I thought of Cat a lot. in this episode. I have a lot of cat notes, honestly. And then also, can a man still be brave if he's afraid? That's the only time a man can be brave. Ned's lesson to Bran about bravery and fear. You know, so to slot Reneer in this moment in a stark parent model, I think is really smart. And it sets up this kind of haunting specter of regret because saying what happens with Amund and

Luke is, of course, not Rainier's fault, but how will what happened haunt her when she is thinking in the future about whether he was prepared, about whether he should have gone? It's not just the rage that's directed outward at the Greens, at the people who are responsible directly

for this. It's the regret that these characters carry inside of them that shapes what is to come. Really interesting opening scene. Interrupted by ill tidings, Reynese has arrived on Dragonback still rocking that amazing armor. Urgent message for Reneira and Damon.

Luke clearly thinks this is going to be about Coralus dying. I know. I love that moment. Like, again, it's just sort of like, he is to give us a Luke who is throughout the episode, afraid and overwhelmed and young seeming, again, it's not just like, oh, he's scared right at the end when he has to hop on his dragon and go to Storm's End,

but he is scared throughout. we learned that he gets seasick. Like, he's just so young and so vulnerable throughout this episode. It's... So much trepidation. And seated back. You know, like, I don't know that every single

sign of thing to come has been, like, subtly seated throughout the season of House of the Dragon. But, like, if you go back to basically all the Luke scenes, like, thinking about Luke and Jason the training yard and, like, all that sort of stuff, like, it's just... It's there. And those us who knew this were coming, you know, are, like, tied up into knots at home.

watching it. Anyway, Renner is here. Renice is here with a news and her smashing armor. She's got a double whammy here. Yeah. Below number one, Vassaris is dead. The reactions on Reneira's face, Damon's face, the way that the music changes. On the one hand, no character in the world, just as no viewer at home, could have seen Viseras in episode 8 and not understood that death was imminent. He even incorporates this certainty into his speech to the family. Like, I don't have a lot of

time left. Get it together. But that made it actually more affecting to me that they were bold over to hear this. Like, they could not have thought he had much time left and yet it still hit them so hard because you're never ready to lose somebody who has that role in your life, even if he's melting like a candle in front of you. I hope they were thinking, wow, I'm really glad that Vainman stepped out so we could see Vissars for the first time in six years right before he died.

That was really excellent timing. Thank you for those petitions. Handy. But you're never, yeah, you're never ready at all. And I think it's, we'll talk about Damon's reaction a second. Were you, did you take note of the fact that Rainis only addresses Renira here?

Like, says, says Reneer's name, says your father, my cousin, doesn't say Damon, your brother. Like, she, her hate and the way that she blames Damon for Lina's death is very clearly established. That was also, of course, true for Reneira with everything that happened with Lainor. So this is like showing progress with Rainez and Reneerah that will, of course, continue to build over this episode. That doesn't seem like it's happening for Rainis with Damon. I feel also what we learned in this episode is that Renice, I think, in general, does not really like men.

Like, she loves her husband and she loves, like, some men. But, like, on the whole, I think she'd rather talk to a woman than a man. So. Blow number two, Joe. Yeah. There is more, Renice says. Agon has been crowned as his successor. Now, Reneer is legitimately stunned by this amidst the first sound of pain, grabs her pregnant

belly. Yeah. Demon instantly goes to. conspiracy corner thinks Vassaris was killed. Damon knows that conspiracy corner is where I live, so that's cool. That's right. I think the main reason, despite the fact that- RETA-Swap theories with Joe.

Despite the fact that, like, Viseris is, like, dropping body parts left and right. I feel like the reason that Damon immediately goes to conspiracy corner here is that he knows a thing or two about spousal murder, right? He's like, was Viseras at all inconvenient to Allison? Then I know what I would do. I'd hop up of my dragon and go grab a rock Go to the valley. Were there any rocks near the bedside?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Did anybody wear a murder cloak on the premises that evening? The important questions. Allison was like the only one not in a cloak last episode. But I think that like we got, you know, this is where bees went as well. He's like, who was the last one with the queen? Like, what happened there, right? And this is a rumor in fire and blood that Allison might have poisoned him.

But I do think that this is just Aman. I mean, I do think this is Damon just like suspecting the worst in other people because he knows it exists in his own heart. Yeah. I, the projection of that darkness within very Dario Jura, suspicious mind, only dishonest people think this way in my experience stuff are favorites to talk about. Love Jorah, Miss Jorah. Also, like, even though they saw how sick Baceres was, that timing must feel highly suspicious to them, he makes this great. stand and long walk and show of support for Renira and Renera's family and Renera's cause the second they're out of there. He's gone. Okay, that was one show of strength and support

that the Greens could not abide. And they were also, Damon was already suspicious of the milk of the poppy that they were drugging. Detective Damon on the case. And keeping Sarah's addled, as David and Renera say to Allison so that they could assume power and rule in his stead while you're communicating with blinks and weezes. We must not forget about the blinks and weas, Joe. Science and portents, blinks and weas at gmail.com? Should we give it a, should we give it a try? What do you think? I actually kind of want that to be like a shop we open someday, Blinks and wheezes. Maybe that can be like a nook in our bookstore. Great. Have you been to Blinks and Weez's corner?

Great. Reneer does not even respond to or acknowledge Damon's conspiracy theory. Instead says, Allison demanded you to declare for Agon. Amid her grief, processing all of this in real time, real time, the thing that seems to be top of mind and hitting hardest in a way, of course, very sad about her father's death, but the thing that is hitting hardest in the way is this final betrayal from her childhood best friend,

the recognition that Allison did that and what that means, that Allison made that choice, that they crowned Egon, hearing this from Renice, the details of the dragon pit in front of the masses, this isn't like a quiet family time. Let's give it a try and see how it feels experiment. This is the full coup. They have usurped the Iron Throne.

I think you know that if you're going to do a coup, you've got to do the coup. You can't know half measures, right? I think that especially because the final moments right between Allison and Renira were these, you know, this beautiful reconciliation. And so Reneer has to be kicking herself for, even though we as viewers know that that was probably a true heartfelt moment from Allison. That's my read on it anyway.

Reneer now has to be like, that duplicitous bitch. You know, I mean, like what, how can that not feel? shape your ability to trust people then in the future. Right. Or within this episode, right? Your own judgment of character. Boy. Speaking of judging people.

Yeah. Damon's been reading the blogs. He's been listening to the pods. He scroll on the trending topics on Twitter. Yeah. And he has some notes for Raynees. Just as much of the viewing public did in the wake of episode nine. Yeah.

Doesn't put it quite the way that we would have. But here's what he says. That whore of a queen murdered my brother and stole his throne and you could have burned them all for it. Now, Damon's rage, very apparent here, something that we're going to talk about later in the Black Council scenes is how unlike book Damon, who actually preaches a much more methodical course, show Damon thinks that burning them all is the clearer path. at least burning the high towers. Yeah. And I think it's important that we see this fissure immediately here. So what's really clear with these sister stories of 9 and 10 is that Condal and

Sipashnik and the rest of the writers are really invested in this mirroring and parallelism between these two stories. And in some cases, it works really well. In some cases, I have questions. But, like, this idea of an internal inside the family civil war. as we mount up to go to a larger family civil war. Again, this is a change from the books in which Reneer and Damon are on the same page.

Here they need, the writers decide they need to generate a massively different reaction from these two characters. So right away, you need to get a more rageful Damon and a more contemplative Reneira in order to make them seem like, which makes more sense to me than like, the very hazy difference between Otto getting to Agon first versus Allison getting to AGO first.

That was the last episode. But nonetheless, we have an important internal family divide, running up to the larger family divide. And so we get some major attitude adjustments from these two characters in the sequence here. Right. And as you noted on Talk the Thrones on Sunday, that parallel is all the starker and clear. because it is the men in both cases who are advocating for the more violent rash course.

If you go back and watch this season, this story really is a story about how Otto fucking High Tower and Damon fucking Tiger really, really fucking hate each other and almost every decision stems from that, honestly. Yeah.

You know? Part of why getting the Dragonstone Bridge Showdown Redux in this episode was so satisfying. It's satisfying. Their derision for each other has been such a central heartbeat. It's satisfying. It just comes with that question

that we asked on Talkin' Thrones, which is like, whose idea was it to send Otto as a diplomat? This is like... I'm so excited to talk about this today because that is one of the things a couple days later that I remained absolutely baffled by it.

It's only so that they can have the parallel bridge moment. You know what I mean? That's the only reason because that's just throwing lighter fluid on the fire, sending Auto there. Anyway, we'll guess that. It gave us the withered cock moment

and it made Chris Ryan's year, so there's that at least, too. I will cherish that. always. I promise. On the matter of throwing lighter fluid on the fire, though, as you say, let's hit this Rainis thing for one

more minute here. We're not going to spend too much time looking back at that specific decision in episode 9, but because Damon brings it up and voices something that the fan base has been discussing, Reneas says in response, yeah, war is inevitable, and that's very true

to form. Renice has been in her conversations with Corlis throughout eight, knives will come out. Character, always warning that this conflict was looming and certain to dawn. She loves Ryan Johnson. Loves a chunky cable-knit sweater and, yeah, huge Benoit Blanc fan. Anyway. But says, quote, that war is not mine to begin. And I'm wondering how we'll talk more, of course, about Renice's position in the conversation with Corliss and House Valerian's ultimate declaration later in the episode. But in terms of this idea here and this defense or explanation, how is that Rainis centric logic sitting with you right now? I don't want to go back too far as well. I do want to

quickly read this email from Andrew because I think it gives us insight into like what the writers were thinking of in that because in the balance of that moment, decision not to torch the grains is one thing. But the collateral damage that comes with that movement, is sort of something you and I were hung up on. So Andrew writes, when Danny killed civilians in Kings Landing, we saw the horrified reactions of Tyrion, John, and Aria. When the Lannisters killed Roberts, Baste,

we saw horrified mothers. By not showing the impact of Rainey's killing tens, if not hundreds of small folk, I would say thousands. I can't help but feel like the show is foregoing the humanity of the previous show. Sarah Hess is a great. Sarah Hess is a house of dragon writer who has gotten way more flak than she deserves for some comments.

And I don't agree with all the comments, but the disproportionate response. Anyway, this is me, Joanna speaking. Sarah Hess is great writer, but her comment that is Game of Thrones, civilians don't count is untrue and reductive. What do you think? I agree.

This has been a major criticism of the season of House of the Dragon is like, we don't feel like we're getting the street-level, you know, version of the story that we would like to get. That will not be true going forward, and Mallory and I can assure you as book readers

that there will be street level and specifically reaction surely to what happened in the dragon pit on that day is definitely baked into the story going forward even though it was a diversion for the books. We see those threads spooling forward. But I think to the question of, like, Rainis torching or not torching the greens,

what becomes clear to me in this episode is that Reneas is not ready to throw in for either side, that this episode, and we talked about the Sun Talk of Thrones, is a test that Rainier does not know that she's taking right now to win Rainey's and then ultimately, Corleys, then ultimately the fucking Navy

to her cause, right? So this is a sequence where last week, Rainey's has that conversation with Alicent, and has a good think on what kind of leader, Allison as sort of Queen Regent, would be, And whether or not that's something she's interested in. And this episode, she's taking a look at Rainira and Damon and wondering, okay, what kind of leader is Renera is?

And she's decided, she decides her side in that month. But she hadn't decided. Despite the fact that she's like, I'm not really for Allison when she busts up through the dragon pit. That being said, the war is not mind to begin. Really we have to circle back to the whole, like, as she herself, Rainies points out in this episode, Jason, Luke and Joff, or if she doesn't want to own them, Bela and Raina are inextricably tied up into the future of this outcome.

So, like, how is this not her war when her precious granddaughters, Bela and Raina, their futures are so tied up in it? It's a question I have. I don't know. Where is it sitting with you? Mallory Rubin. Yeah, I agree with the test

and the indecision that is still top of mind here and the assessment of Renera and that wonderfully rich and charged window in the wall of your prison indictment of how she viewed Allison's choices and decisions and position last week, would Rainira give her cause to levy a similar charge this week? It ends up not going that way. And that all makes sense. And I have a, I think, an easier time wrapping my mind around that. I think the interpersonal dynamics of how Allison is, how Reneas is thinking about

Allison to the Greens, Reneera and the blacks, etc. That all tracks for me. I will never understand exploding through the floor of the dragon pit and murdering legions

of small folk. I will simply never understand it, but unless, here we are. And Reneas says, the greens are coming. Counsel's Reneira to leave Dragonstone, which I found quite strange,

fleeing your seat as counsel, but then Reneira cries out in pain and says, the babe is coming. Reneira's labor begins in conjunction with Demon's War Council beginning. And Reneira is in agony. Mr. Girardi says that this should not be happening. This is too soon.

It's so interesting because in the book, it's rage. Yes. And here it's like despair and betrayal. We're not seeing a rageful Reneer, and what the show has really decided is that the turning point for the rage for Reneira comes right at the end of this episode, right? And so, like, throughout, when we talk about the softening, softening of characters, you know, I think it's interesting that they're like, this is the pivot point for this character. And we're going to talk a lot, a lot, a lot about what Reneira may then look like in season two versus the Reneer. that this might be the end of this version of Reneura forever in this episode.

That distinction between rage and this feeling of loss and despair sets up this juxtaposition and what we take from it because by the painted table, Damon has amassed his men. He has begun plotting initially the defense of Dragonstone. as we can hear Reneer screams. So can everybody in that room around that table. Damon does not go to her. We'll talk about that more in a few minutes.

But that juxtaposition really hammers home that patriarchal divide childbirth. The childbed is the battlefield. That has been a focus of this show since Emma and Reneer spoke in episode one about that idea, the royal wounds, the birthing bed as their battlefield. birth has played a key role,

episode one, Emma's death, Baylon's death. The second pilot of episode six are introduction to adult Ranera, childbirth, Joffrey, Lena's death, etc. And now the finale here, this has been central.

And so now as the battle, the actual battle looms and the men are standing around the table talking about the battlefield and the battle lines, Rainira cannot be there. And it's interesting, you know, in the very first episode when Emma dies, there's the cut back and forth between the tourney. You know, so it's like this idea of birth is the battlefield, but this idea of like, this is the realm of men, the tourney, and Emma is like in her room having her labors.

And like she goes into labor and Vassaris isn't even there. Like he knows she's gone into labor and he's not there until things go wrong. Announces it to the cheering crowd. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I think a couple things are going on here. One, you know, again, Emma Darcy spoke really eloquently about this is Renera becoming everything.

She feared the fetid mother, right, while the men plan their war. But it made me think of, I really hate to invoke this, but it made me think of like when Donald Trump would talk about Hillary Clinton and like the 3 a.m. phone call and like that she was sleeping during the 3 a.m. phone call and like this implication that like women were. will not be there and will not be ready. And there's like, even worse, even worse somehow than Trump, is the like, how can a woman rule what happens when she gets her period? You know, like this idea of like this very, this can only happen to a female monarch in this moment that she would be called away from the war table. This is not something that would ever happen to a man.

I think also there's this really interesting quote. I don't think the show did a really good job of hitting the realm's delight. concept that's in the book about Reneira. It's mentioned once in an earlier episode, but like this idea that when she was young and had the flush of youth and the beauty that brings that she was so favored, right? So the quote here is there had been a time when she had been well loved by highborn and commons alike when they had cheered her as the realms delight. Many young lord and noble knight had sought her favor then, though how many would fight, would still fight for her now that she was a woman wed, her body Asian thick and by six

childbirth was a question none could answer. So this idea of like there's such a difference between in the show, the path forward for Reneer as a woman wanting to rule as was never clear, right? Not from the jump. But this idea that George is exploring in fire and blood of like, well, it's one thing to think about maybe a young woman, but like a mom? a mom being our queen? I don't know. And, like, everything that comes with that. So I think that's all bouncing around as, you know,

the men at the table are actually a little more interested in Reneer's welfare than Damon seems to be. And pretty visibly, like, appalled the Damon seems very uncomfortable, right? Uninterested in checking in, yeah. But I think overall it's just sort of like you could hear it's, there's this doctor, There's this moment in Doctor Who where the doctors aside that the woman who is prime minister

should not be the prime minister anymore and he starts a whisper campaign with this just like this one thing that he whispers to somewhere he's like, doesn't she look tired? And it's just sort of like moments like that where it's like you can you can almost hear

the Lord's whispering where was Renira when the war started oh giving birth, you know? Absolutely. And like the injustice for Renira of that that the men who have the luxury of just standing there by that table would never have to be in such a situation, but also the way that you noted that that fear of motherhood and also of marriage as an institution and where that was going to lead and what inside of this world that was for.

Like thinking back to Renair's conversation with Damon in episode four when she says, my mother was made to produce airs until it killed her. I won't subject myself to the same fate. Says of marriage, it is like to be a death sentence. We have spent enough time with Renira, with Emma, with Lena, with these characters to understand that for Renira, this is something that has weight on her her entire life. It is this looming dread.

And that would be true no matter what. But the injustice of this moment, pulling her away, And the looming dread, the other looming dread has been getting this call of like your father said, it's all on you now. So to have both these looming dreads come to her on the same day and to have one of them hamstring her ability to handle the other. It's cruel. It is. I think we really see that dread on Jason Luke's faces as well, because in the next scene, They are summoned.

Renice goes to get them, says your mother needs to speak with you. And when they see Renira, their fear is so apparent. Because every character in this world understands how dangerous this is. Before we talk about their exchange, let's hit this training yard, training beach. Glimpse. It's very quick, but so interesting. One, I am incapable of watching a training sequence with young folk in Game of Thrones in the Game of Thrones universe

and not thinking of brand glimpsing in that Winterfell yard, Ned and Benjian, and then Rickard preparing to send Ned off to the veil telling him not to fight, but then what does he say, Joe, if you have to fight when? And to have that in our minds watching this episode with where we're heading was just like a really heavy memory and note. And the way that you've made such a great point in observation all season or since the time jump about how Reneira's kids in particular seem so young. And you just felt that so fully across the episode. But here as well, and I think like the way that Jace, who's been very sweet, is so harsh with Luke when he knocks him over.

And the pressure that Jace clearly feels to get ready for what is to come is so present there. But also like how how they're not as they haven't benefited from, you know, I don't want them to go to the Kristen Cole School of Psychopaths, but like, you know, Amon has been sharpened and sharpened and sharpened and sharpened by his constant training, by Kristen Cole. And we get some Damon instructions to Jason this episode, but it's not, I have to think about Kristen and Harwin. Like, that's what I'm thinking about when I'm watching Jason Luke fight here.

And Chase trying to make up a lesson plan on the fly, essentially, because he doesn't have, he hasn't had the training that, you know, he's been studying Valerian. He hasn't been doing this, right? I think that idea of thinking about Harwin and Kristen and thinking about these boys. And to your earlier point about Viseris and then Rainier and then Luke and then generations, like we have to think about Tyrion and Storm of Swords says it all goes back and back to our mothers and fathers. And there's before them we are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us. And one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.

watching Jason Luke here almost cosplay Harwin and Kristen, you know, it's just sort of like they're doing they're doing what they saw their dad do, essentially. And I think that's- Yeah, Harwin's counsel was always keep your, you know, always keep your short of, always be ready. Yeah. And so for like Luke to not be ready to receive that blow in that moment is a horrifying thing for Jason. I thought when you mentioned the Kristen Harwin training art sequence you were going to mention

my favorite moment of the season, which is Saris watching them saying. Oh, this is the stealth vinyl. That's the little little bit. Trained together. Okay. I'm sorry. I couldn't know, but I couldn't not mention it.

Once you brought up the scene. I hope that someday Steve does a, like a super cut of all the times that you've done that impression on the Zoom call because like. What you're missing at home is the body language that comes when Mal does this. She just like shimmies her shoulders a little and like bobs in her chair. It's pretty funny. Well, wouldn't you agree? It's so funny.

When Jason Luke see their mother, Joe, Jase immediately observes that Damon is not there. Immediately. And where is Damon? And what does Reneer say? I don't know, gone to madness, gone to plot his four. Some real Targaryen coin flipping language here. Gone to Madness.

Which side of the coin is Damon on, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. She can tell, feel sense that something has broken in Damon here. Yeah, she's aspiring to greatness. Damon has gone to madness. What are we going to do? This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Jason wants to go find Damon. But Renera says, and whatever claim remains to me, you are now it's air. Not is to be done, but by my command. And I love this because Renira is bracing for any number of eventualities, any number of potential outcomes, as we'll see in the council discussions throughout the episode,

but is not for a second relinquishing control or command. And I think it's also interesting because, like, my, I need to go look at them side by side and pay more a little bit more attention, but the way that that room is designed where she's giving birth looks to me a lot like Emma's room, just I think the peachy tone on the wall. It's different than most of the things in Dragonstone. the way those windows are set up, similar to the barred windows. There's an Emma's room and in Allison's room. And so then it makes me think about, again, you brought up Allison's,

Rainey's line to Allison about a window in your prison. Like the best window, like, Reneer is locked in a prison here of labor. Not all labors and births are painful or bad. Many of them are beautiful. But in this case, it's locked her in a prison. and the best chance she has to punch a window for herself in this moment is through Jace, right? You're my envoy. Nothing gets done without me.

It proves to be not an entirely effective window that she punched for herself there because Jase does not take control of the situation the way that maybe she had hoped he would. Right. He tries to finds Damon chatting about Ravens and fevers with your favorite Bardmoose Celtigar. I think you know I've been waiting for Keltygar to make his appearance. Now that now that Beesbury is gone, I need to latch on to some musty old lord or another. So Kelthagar, it must be. Beesbury's not really gone, Joe, you know?

Oh, yeah. And in our hearts. And on the soundboard, most crucially of all. Most crucially of all. What is death if not bees persevering? Damn me. Joe, this is that moment you alluded to earlier where Sir Laurent is like,

dude, maybe go check in with the maister. What do you actually think, before we get back to Jace, what do you think is going on with Damon here? Is it his grief over Vassaris's death? Is it trauma from Lena? Is it Alyssa, Damon and Vassaris's mother,

who also died in childbirth? Is it something else? Is it all of those things? Do we know? Okay. I don't think Damon deserves a charitable read in this episode, but like, let me try to give him a charitable read, which is, like, Lena Trauma is a good charitable read in this. Also, if he views his job as I'm literally the only one who's fought in a war, like, I got to be the war guy that maybe he feels, I know, I mean, it's terrible. I don't want to give him the charitable read,

but my most charitable read is that he's like, we'll talk about this a little bit later, but like he thinks his, he thinks what Reneer wants from him is, let's go to war, attack dog approach. It's not what Reneer wants,

but that's the same page he thinks they're on. So he's like, Reneiras otherwise occupied, I'll do this because we have to do this, we have to go to war. And also I want to go to war. I love going to war.

So, So Damon's a real piece of shit on nine different friends in this episode. And this is one of them. Very difficult Damon episode, a lot of really painful and disturbing sequences. I think the hearing Reneer screaming his name, seeing that he hears it and that he does nothing in response is just despicable. Very awful. Very, very tough.

This is where Damon is declaring his intention to fly to the Riverlands to pitch Lord Tully in person, your favorite. Grover-Dillian. Muppet-Named family. Sorry, I shouldn't have said Lord Dulley. Forgive me. We always have to say Grover-R-Tel.

Names when we can. This will, of course, become one of the many points of contention across the episode, the Riverlands pitch in particular. This is where Jace

enters and says, my mother has decreed no action be taken while she's a bed. You made a great point a couple episodes ago about how you really wished we had gotten

to see more of the dynamic between Damon and Jace inside of this family in general. I was really feeling that here, heading into the Kingsguard test, but in this sequence in general, like, what is the dynamic between these characters? What is their history? Were you feeling that here as well? Absolutely. He's been their stepdad for six years, right?

And like, we see him intervene in the post-dinner fight is sort of like, you know, with one finger, he sort of backs Jason Luke off of the fight. You know what I mean? So there's definitely like, do they, do they love Damon or are they like, the way that Jason immediately is like, where the fuck is Damon when his mom's in labor makes me feel like he points to, you know, tension in the past. And I could definitely, I mean, girl dad, Damon, who is only teaching one of his children how to read Valerian. I can definitely see that as soon as the blonde boys are born, right? Lil' Leg, little Viserian. he's like, well, these are my real sons.

Like, these are my sons. And later, when Otto gives the term and he's talking about the little blonde ones, you know, like, that's when Damon's like, my sons. Those are his sons. So, like, I would love to know more about the Jason Damon dynamic, but my sense is that it is not unfraught at all. Yeah. Yeah.

That's my read. That's my read as well. I wish we had gotten to see a little bit more of it. Damon pretty uninterested in following Chase and Renira's counsel here orders Celtegaard to send the Ravens anyway tells Jace, follow me, gonna teach you a thing or two about loyalty.

He is testing Sir Laurent and Sir Stephan's vows. Now they, unlike our fave, Sir Eric, with an E, who defects, these two have been there. So, Damon, his methods, we have notes, but the actual need to get them to say, okay, we're swearing an oath as Queen's Guard loyalists, is right, because that was not actually a decision that they made.

They were on assignment. Also, the Steph and Eric rules have basically been flipped from book to show. What did you make of this overall sequence? What did you make of him bringing Jace and Jace's response and just this general tactic, especially as a, you noted the parallel. from 9 to 10, this is like Damon's version of Otto forcing the Lord to pledge their allegiance.

So as I shoot over the scene again and again and tried to make sense of it, that was my only answer that I could come up with for why it's here because it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Like him wanting, just as a lesson for Jace, I'm unsure of the lesson that's being taught here, it's nice to see Caraxies. It's been a while. Love to see Caraxis.

That screech. I mean, all the dragon sounds are amazing. Shout out, Paula. The Dragon Screech is your heart starts to race the second that you hear it. Clicking. It's so good. And the long neck of the blood worm. Love Coraxis.

Wrap in around the screen. I think we need more Caraxies in general. That being said, this scene really only makes sense to me if in the writer's room they literally put the scenes up side by side and we're like, how do we echo all of these moments? And they're like, we need an echo of Otto making the Lord's bend the knee. And if they don't bend the knee, they meet the king's justice, which is hanging. So just to show us that Otto and Damon are the same person, essentially, I think is what we're supposed to see here. But that Damon has a dragon, you know, that he can, instead of a noose, he's got a dragon.

Right. he's auto needs someone else to to swing the sword damon can pass the sentence and it made me think I think especially the the framing I would encourage everybody to watch the house the dragons built feature at this week which has some amazing stuff on the paid to table the the the vagar air axe sequence at the end but was amazing to see what went into filming in Portugal on this mountain airlift everyone and get the local government involved Like, yeah. Genuinely astonishing.

But that position, positioning, Damon, this rock formation behind him and then a dragon poised behind him as this looming embodiment of death. It's impossible not to think of Danny and Drogon and the Tarleys. For me, because of location, it made me think of Varus as well, right? Yeah. Because we're on Dragonstone. Wait, can I? I definitely don't have time for this, but I'm going to do it anyway. Can I give you my favorite, like, one of my favorite making of Lord of Rings details,

speaking of, like, airlifting up to a mountain, right? Is that when they were filming some of the, like, we're running, we're running, we're running moments across Middle Earth, that they had a location that they had to, like, helicopter everyone up to, but Sean Bean, like, refused to get in the helicopter because it was, because of fear of helicopters or whatever. So Sean B would just, like, hike the mountain every day, like, set out... hours early to like hike the mountain and like meet them there, like, sweating and stuff like that. And I just, it's one of my favorite stories ever.

Pre-fit, but it would have loved to know the steps. I hope that Matt Smith, like, hiked that Portuguese mountain every day, you know, and just met them there. This idea, the other reason that we think of Damon and Otto in this sequence, in addition to the 9-10 parallels, of course, the way that Carraxies comes to Damon's aid, comes when Damon needs to show force and strength, makes us think back to the Dragonstone Bridge in episode two. This is one of many, many, many. We will talk about them all in ways that work for the rider and in ways that don't.

Rider and dragon bond and tie moments in this episode where you see what that relationship can mean and how it can be used. And Damon's saying, if you want out, got it clean death. But then he says, if you choose truck. If you swear fealty now only to later turn your cloaks, know that you will die screaming? That was harrowing. Totally cool, normal language from Damon.

With Damon out in his battlefield, we see Rainira back in hers in agony. Speaking of the dragon and dragon rider juxtapositions, we get these really fascinating and multiple cuts from. Reneira to shots of Syrax's face. Wild, yeah. How did you read that? Did you interpret that as Syrax feeling Reneira's pain, some other way? We're going to have questions about Dragon Lour because it feels like this show is really interested in showing us a bunch of Dragon Lour that we don't know about yet, you know?

And that's really fun because, like, again, you know, along with the prophecy reveal that we get in episode one of this show that George sanctions, like what we learn about dragon lore here could change everything we think we understand about the Targaryians. That's really exciting. So I think it's part of that sort of seating closer to the dire wolf-start connection between the dragons and the dragon rider. You know, we're thinking about like ghosts howling out for John, et cetera. So that's sort of what I think. think is meant to be shown here. But also, I mean, like,

we get a Damon dragon reflection moment later in the episode. Just a reminder to us that Reneer is a dragon in her own way, even though, like, Damon is the more dragon acting Targaryen in this episode. Reneer is still a dragon, you know, at the end of the day. Absolutely. I'm really excited for the expansion of the Dragon Lord. In the series, like, really, really excited. And there was a lot of cool stuff that promises downloads in the future in this episode.

We then get a deeply heart-wrenching and harrowing sequence, the stillbirth. The midwives, Joe, imploring Rainira to let them help, saying you shouldn't do this alone. We see when the baby slides to the floor that she is dead. there's this agonizing shot of Reneira cradling the stillborn child against her absolutely heart-wrenching. Here is the passage from Fire and Blood. Quote, the dead girl had been named Vesnia.

Princess Reneira announced the next day when Milka the Poppy had blunted the edge of her pain. She was my only daughter, and they killed her. They stole my crown and murdered my daughter, and they shall answer for it. And so the dance began as the princess called a council of her own. And again, we are not getting a rageful Reneura. We are getting a sorrow.

But like, sorrowful. Let's just add up all the horrible things that happened to Reneer in the span of 24 to 48 hours here. This one, we're going to talk a little bit more about this scene in the context of something later from via a listener email we got. But I just want to acknowledge that we got a lot of listener emails about this scene similar to all the emails we got about the MS scene. And to know that for a large portion of viewing audience, this is a tremendously harrowing scene to watch. The question we always have to ask ourselves, as we will ask about a couple other scenes in this episode, is like, to what end? Like, if we're going to do this here, something that is going to upset a number of people watching, watching what are we gaining from it narratively.

And like, so, you know, I guess I would want to turn that question on you, Mallory. Not that you have to say whether or not you think this is the right decision, but like, what do you think you learned about Reneira in showing this as graphically as they did? Well, the thing that really stood out to me was actually the next sequence where we see, and then the end of that with the rocking and the cradling. and the decision, and as the midwives are saying, you don't have to do this on your own. And then we see Reneira wrapping the body,

preparing Vesania's body herself. The silent sisters are off. They're there, but they're not doing the work. Renira is doing this. And I think, like, that was what really stood out across, across this stretch to me was Reneer's solitude. Like, I kept thinking about that Viseris line from earlier in the season.

I imagine even dragons get lonely. And this idea, especially in this moment where she would want to be able to count on all of the people in her life, that Damon is not there, that all of these things are happening without her, this life of isolation. She's thinking surely of her mother and that loss. Allison, the loss of her best friend. That is an inciting seismic moment in this episode. The burden of the prophecy, very top of mind for her in this episode, a thing that she alone carries and realizes in this episode. episode to an extent that she didn't even know before she alone carries. She has lost Harwin. She has lost her father. She has lost her child here. Like, the loneliness that that Renira's

experiencing here was really what hit me. How about you? For Damon to not be here with her in this moment, again, is despicable, I think is the word you use, unforgivable. We do see, like, this beach scene where Damon is processing his feelings, because she's, surely not only the feelings for the loss of Vesnia, but also Vassaris compounded. He's, we'll talk about maybe a reason why, but for much of the episode, his blade, Dark Sister, is unsheathed.

Like, his sword is ready for much of the episode. And here, for the first time, I mean, we've seen him lean on it, but it's the first time ever, We see him use it the way that we've seen Vassaris use it a lot, which is almost as like a walking stick of crutch. You know, so this is this rageful warrior person and this symbol of his strength and sunk into the sand

in his grief is like that. So again, I'm not justifying anything Damon does in this episode, but I think, you know, we'll talk about George's approach to this, but I think always in a George R. Martin throne story, you need to feel the emotions of the monsters as much as you feel the emotions of anyone else. When we see Damon approaching the chamber and seeing Renera on the floor

in a pool of blood holding their stillborn child and he doesn't go to her and then we see him walking out to the beach alone, as you noted, it's like, Damon is clearly feeling something. He's not an unfeeling character. He is not a character who knows what to do with those feelings. And again, like the way that

different characters in the story respond to that sense of loss and sense of loneliness and what course that sets them on it, whether it brings them closer to somebody else or pushes them away from somebody else, is obviously something that this show is very interested in exploring. And even, you know, we go out to this, this funeral and this funeral pyre. And again, like the small, the small wrapped bundle, it's impossible not to think of episode one and seeing Baylon. More of that parallelism that they're trying to do.

Exactly. This other thing that Reneira and Viseris now share and Damon is next to Reneira here at the pyre and has this like

inscrutable expression on his face as he's looking at her. But one of the things that in addition to thinking back to episode one and the Emma Baylon funeral

in terms of that Reneira Vassaris tie, a tie nobody would ever want a hard. a horrible thing to have in common and to share. And one where because Viseras is not here, they cannot even share in their grief together. I was thinking to the fact that Damon was the one

at that funeral in episode one who goes up to her and reaches out to her. And that... Those shots are like mirrored. Absolutely. You can look at them up. It's like, yeah. And what did she say to him at the time, Joe,

in episode one? She's thinking about whether her father found happiness in that brief moment where he had a baby boy, the baby boy that he so desperately wanted. She says, I will never be a son. And now she's burying her own child as half of the realm rebels against her for not being a man. And her only daughter, right? Like she's got, you know, Bailen and Raina are her stepdaughters. And we see the connection between them in this episode that I think is quite beautiful. But, you know, if Viseris is someone who wanted a son and wanted a son and wanted a son and wanted a son,

like, I don't know that we've heard when you're express. I would like a daughter, you know, to get birth to a daughter. But like, as someone who is, you know, interested in the position of women in this world, I think she is someone who would want a daughter. Absolutely. And the name choice, too, Yvesenia. Like inside of this story. The name that she picked out for her baby brother when she was convinced her baby brother was a girl.

Yeah. Agon's sister wife, this fabled warrior, Gagars, Breyer Ryder, Dark Sisters wielder, all of those, all of those ties. Reneas is watching Renira very closely at this funeral. We get a lot of shots of Renice's face, the emotion playing out. out on her face, what she is processing, this shared grief among two mothers who have lost children. Right. The funeral becomes a coronation. Sir Eric, with an E, approaches.

Now, this is a very emotionally raw and very moving sequence, and I thought the coronation seed was incredible. So it's not really the time for jokes. But I will just say, however, tough moment here for Dragonstone Security. I know everyone has a lot going on, but Sir Eric just wanders in without anyone stopping him. Troubling.

Eric, by the way, Sir Lauren or Sir Stephen have to get the Karexies interrogation because they never stole a crown for Rhinera. And what I love about Eric here is that, like, he has this moment, you know, towards the queen. I love that phrasing of it, right?

Eric seems to get like a promotion right away. Like, because for the rest of the episode, it seems like Eric is heads of the Queens Guard, right? He deserved it. He stole the crown. Stole the crown. Yeah. Defected from Agon's Kingsguard, managed to escape Kings Landing,

and ditched his bro. Ditched his brother. Didn't quite get Rainies out, but points for trying, you know? Yeah, tried really hard. Yeah. Made it clear that he's not a fan of child fighting pits. He deserved. He deserved that bump.

Joe, when he kneels here and swears his oath to Reneira and takes out Viseras's crown, we get a really interesting moment where Damon is the one who is receiving it and looking at it and holding it. And then placing it on Reneer's head, much as he placed the crown on Viseras's head in episode eight, what did you read on Damon's face in that moment? Did you sense even an iota of desire or ambition, or was this to you seeing this crown cements definitively and crystallizes for Damon in a way that nothing else could but holding that in his hands, that his brother is dead? That's my reading of it.

Yeah, mine too. I have to believe Matt Smith and all the writers when they say again and again and again, Damon does not want the throne for himself. Does he want to be, like, leader in name, you know, in all but name, kind of? But, like, he does not want to sit on the throne and wear the crown. That's not something that he's interested in. So we don't see it as a moment where he's like, I could do it. I could put it on my head right now and who would stop me sort of thing.

It feels like, and we talked in that episode, episode eight, discussion about Vassar's long walk, that this moment with the crown was an accent. that they found in rehearsal, right? That, like, the crown just fell off of Patty's little slumped frame. I still can't believe it. And Matt Smith picked it up. But it being an accident or not, to us, it is one of the highlights of the series so far. So to have this moment where Damon's got the crown on his hand and places it on Reneer's

head, got me, man, got me. I agree. I was very emotional in this. sequence. And also, I think that the way that Damon is staring at that Targaryen sigil, that three-headed dragon feels really germane, given

what unfolds across this episode, more broadly with his dragon-centric stance, which we will break down in detail, the dragon lullaby, etc. It's like he's looking at that and it's affirming this position, this dragon-first approach. Dragons is the strength of

House Targaryen. That's the way he's processing that symbol. For us as viewers and for the realm at large, this crown is a really powerful symbol. We talked a lot on Talk to Thrones on our pods last week about all of the symbols that Agon has. And the fire and blood passage that we cited about every symbol of legitimacy, Otto basically reads that passage aloud in this episode. I can't believe Otto brought his copy of Fire and Blood to the bridge. I know. He's got his gindle with them. He's got his highlights ready to He had the audio book in his like earbuds, and he was just sort of like, let me read this.

Let me pull a Mallory and read this passage for you to help you understand. It's going on. He will enumerate all of the many symbols that are working in Agon's favor for the realm at large. And so many of those tie to conquest and might and strength. And this crown, which before it was Viseras's, was Jiharis's, is a symbol of peace because Jiharis was the conciliator. they keep talking about Vassaris the peaceful. Like this symbol of peace as a contrast to Agan's symbol of war is so strong and intentional. And then also, of course, the strength of the symbol of Reneira as the chosen heir reinforcing.

Veseris picked me and never wavered. And here is the proof on my head. I am wearing his crown. Building her own Queensguard is a powerful symbol too. there's this line after the stretch running through all of Agan's strengths and advantages in the book, there's a line against all that. Renira's advantages were few. And at the dawn here, everyone that Reneera has matters deeply.

And the show is framing her even more on the back foot than she is in the book, right? Because in the coordination of the book, it's 300 sets of eyes looked on as Prince Damant Targaryen with the old King's crown on the head of his wife, declaring her queen, blah, blah. He declares himself protector. He's like, my name, protector of the realm. Not king consort, not prince consort. Protector of the realm. That's what he gives himself.

But like, Reneira's funeral coronation, that's like 20 people, right? Max. Much smaller gathering. So, you know, trying, of course, again, in that parallelism, trying to contrast Agon's pomp and circumstance with this, like, you know.

Yeah. It's like so much more intimate, but more meaningful as a result because everybody who's there and choosing to bend the knee, you feel the meaning of that choice, including Renis doesn't bend the knee. But you know what I was struck by?

Because there's also a later, a later moment where everybody inclines their heads at the Black Council and Renice is the one who does not. But Renice clearly observes here that Bela and Raina are bending the knee. Clearly makes note of that. And I think that bond between Bailorina and Reneira and the role that her granddaughter's play in Reneera's life and

and Raine is just clearly very central to the change of heart that Reneas experiences here. But the other thing about that crowd size is it's the product of the funeral becoming the coronation. And we get that chilling line from Reneas later in the episode in the conversation with Corliss about the stranger casting this long shadow over this family. and this moment where death immediately morphs into possibility, you could take that in like a hopeful way, rebirth. But it's hard in this episode and the framework of an episode where we get the really all-timer, corless line hope is the fool's ally to not think about this as death is

inescapable, loss is inescapable. for this family. Also the visual of, I mean, I think Emma Darcy is a stunning individual, but the visual of Reneira throughout, like, every time we see her with the crown on her head, she, her, the wig that she's wearing is the, like, disheveled, I just, you know, had a stillbirth wig, you know. Again, in contrast to the black velvet polish of Aegon, but, like, we are watching her. Reneira have to, like, what should be this triumphant, you know, glorious moment, especially when you contrast it to Reneira being named Air in the first episode.

She turns around in all her finery, right? You know, and, like, that image is one of the main promo images of House of the Dragon because the costuming is so incredible. And Alicent is the one, of course, who, like, you know, helped her get ready for all of that. what we see instead is this woman who is just like had to undergo terrible loss, hair undone and disheveled, and this is the moment when the crown goes on her head.

You feel the gravity of it in the next scene, which is the Black Council, convening, because there's this slow motion walk. You've tracked the walks. I love a walk. All season long, Joe, and the crown, the cloak, the guards surrounding Renira, this is where we get the first incredible glimpse

of the painted table illuminated with the candles underneath, heating it and lighting it. Everyone inclining their heads, save for Renice. Renira is announced. Titles, titles, titles, you know the damn words. Raina, we were just talking about Raina and Bela and what Renice is observing. This felt like a key moment here to you.

Huge, my mom. moment. Huge. The cup bearer callback, yes. Yeah. So Raina comes up, again, I would like moral lines for Raina and Bela season two. I have notes. But Rana comes up and offers the cup, you know, your grace, offers the cup

putting her in the Reneira position from earlier in the season. But Reneira says, come with me and makes a similar gesture to Bela, and takes them over to the table with her. So that Baila

and Raina stand right next to Jace and Luke. The seat at the table that was not offered to her, you know, that Rainey's points out to her in episode two. Right. Yeah. And Rennies has to be thinking about that here, right? Do you remind your father's bed of that as you carry their cups? And again, to go back to that, again, probably my favorite line of the season,

window in the wall of your prison moment. Like, this is such a contrast to you. Allison's like, our only way forward for power is day. influence the men around us and work through them. And Rainey says seeing this moment where Renira, and this is something we talk about so often when it comes to feminism and powers of like that is like, feminism isn't working hard to ensure your own seat at the table and then not making sure other women can sit at the table with you.

And so Renira pulling up two more seats to the table for these young women here is huge. I think it's also what I loved Emma talking about this moment, where we first see Rainier at the table, and Emma talked a lot about, like, basically, imposter syndrome, that, like, here's the moment, and Reneer as strong and as smart and as capable as she is, is unprepared for what it will feel like to stare down a table of men who may or may not believe in you,

but she thinks probably don't believe in her, and have this moment that Damon has already been making all these plans without her and is coming through with all of his plans and I think it's such an interesting counter to this is the Black Council

versus the Green Council and the way that the Black Council is described in the book the Black Council of the True Telling names that gathering on Dragonstone setting it against the Green Council of King's Landing

Reneer herself presided seated between her uncle and husband Prince Damon and her trusted counselor Maister Gerardis. but Reneira and Damon are positioned at opposite ends of the table. So she's not coming to the table with the support that even book Reneira has, right? She's in opposition to the person who's supposed to be her main source of support.

In this moment when she is first meant to be claiming her power, there's this nervous habit hand-grab thing that Emma does as Reneer that we see in this moment. we're going to talk about it a little bit later, but I just, I think this depiction of Renera as someone who is, like, strong and smart and capable, but also in this moment uncertain, versus Agon who is completely incompetent and ill-prepared, but is- happy to remind you he's unfit, yeah. But he's in the moment that the crowds are cheering, just buoyed with this false sense of, you know, superiority and competence. I think it's pretty incredible.

I completely agree. And yes, that switch of having Damon at the other end, cementing that they are not working in unison but are opposed, which everybody in the room can feel increasingly with each thing that one of them says. And Damon is running through the numbers here. And it's pretty grim. It's pretty grim here. But Reneera, smartly, immediately.

shifts to tactics and recruiting and amassing strength. And The Vale is first on the list for her. Her mom was an errand. This is where Mr. Gerardis points to River Run next, and Reneera is clearly pissed when she learns that Damon has already reached out. I was thinking back to the small council sequence in episode six where the Tully Bracken Blackwood dynamic is being discussed,

and Rinear actually has experience, insight, thinking, and insights thinking about the dynamic. in the Riverlands and Damon didn't even pause for chat. And I think also he's saying I'm gonna go. So she's like,

oh, you're leaving me right now without even talking to me about it? You know, it's not just like here are the plans for the Riverlands. Like, I'm gonna go. Right.

It's already been decided. Right. Right. What about Storm's End and Winterfell? Question. And iconic. Lemon cakes.

You love Lemon cakes. I got it. Oath-loving Stark's. note here. And Renier noting the need to remind the Baratheans of their vow, which will be so central. I promise I will not cite the many, many TikToks I have watched about this episode. But one of my favorites was someone was like, Renier at the Black Council being like, LOL, what are the Stark's going to do?

Forget a vow? No. Like, it's all they do. It's all they know how to do. Starks will be fine. So funny. And, you know, I think in general, because also, Reneer, of course, asks Renice about driftmark here.

My note is that I would not let somebody loiter in my war council until I had their allegiance assured. That's just my personal thought of the matter. And then you first. Then you get to come to the table. Yeah. Go listen. Nina asked about their enemies.

It's noted that, you know, the Lannister's being loyal to the high towers and part of camp green means the West entirely is lost. This is where Damon solidifies how essential the Riverlands are. And overall, it's this very effective stretch of, familiar name drops for the audience. Going house by house like this is a way to prime us and excite us for how big the story is going to get, how we're going to travel across that painted table map in the second season. But it does something else, too, that we talk about a lot, Joe, and that obviously is very central to Georgia's pursuits here with the what was Arriguards tax policy question.

The scene really lingers in the minutia of what alliance building looks like and what it requires And of course, some of what the blacks are not thinking about, marriage packs, for example, will end up bearing fruit immediately. What does it look like to win people to your cause and then maintain that allegiance? I have a quick question for you, Malloryman. Do you have a favorite instance of characters slamming sigiled chest pieces down on a map? And is it, you can't count Stannis and Melesandra knocking them off the page? to table.

One of my favorite gifts of all time is someone made a gift of like, it's just Stannis's boots and then the various pieces falling as the table is slamming. For me, it's Rob and Catlin. That's what I was just going to pick. That's mine too.

Yeah. Again, Cat, very top of mind in this app. In many, many ways. Mothers and laws. It's got to talk about Cat. Joe. Your guy, Lord Kelthagar. An icon of his era.

Fashion icon as well. Save it for Fitwatch. Not interested in maps and strategy and setting up season two scope and alliances. He wants fire and blood, damn it! Pray forgive my bluntness, your grace, but talk of men is moot. Your cause owns a power. A power! That has not been seen.

mean in this world since the days of old Valeria dragons. He's just channeling Waldrick for Rings of Power there. By the way, if you're listening to this and you're like, oh no, House the Dragon's done, whatever shall I do. And you haven't watched Rings of Power. Catch up. Guys, go watch Rings of Power. You can hear us say, Power like, 9,000 times.

It's a glass. It's a glass reel. Go have fun. I've heard of em lodged. You heard of Sauron. All right. Reneira responds with what I can only describe as the full half-blood Prince, Joe. She says the greens have dragons.

Jam a Bezor down his throat. Sorry, go ahead. It's the other minister chapter. The trouble is the other side can do magic too. And this is, of course, the crux of the dance of the dragons. Dragons on both sides. We see what that looks like at the end of this episode. And that means it is time for one of our favorite corners, Dragon Math Corner.

We've been doing it all season and Damon's like, I heard Mal and Joe love Dragon Bath, so I'm going to do it. In the text of the show, what a time for us. Okay. The first thing that Damon says is they have three adults by my count. We have Syrac, Caraxis, and meleys. First of all, iconic facial expression on Rainis when he counts mele's here. And she's like, slow down, buddy. We don't have a nonverbal, like in our awards for the episode, we don't have a nonverbal, but like, for me, it would be Eve best like, oh, do you?

We've got mailies. Oh, do you? Also notable here is that he says they have three adults by my count, but then later, he says Dragonstone has 13 to their four. You can't run, you can't slip a number like that past Mallory Rubin. I don't know what you were thinking, right? if you thought Malarubin wasn't going to do some dragon math. Darren and Tissarian, but I guess not counting Tessarian as an adult dragon or just not present in the more germane initial math because these are not characters on the show currently outside of the blood river in the opening credits. Let's go.

So, so Darren, I don't know. I don't know if you might not have heard of some rant about this yet. But Darren is Allison and Vassaris's other son who's at Old Town, who they have not. mentioned, but George R. Martin says is going to be in next season. This is part of why. This is such a big deal. Dragon Math. Darren has a dragon Tessarian, who we don't know where he's parking him in Old Town, but Tessarian is a sizable-ish dragon that the other side has.

So when we're talking about the four, we're talking about Sunfire, which is Agon's beautiful golden dragon, Vagar, who you might have heard of, but if not, you have after this episode, Tessarian, which is Darren's. And then Helena as a dragon, and the question of whether or not Helena is a writer, we don't know. Well, we see Dreamfire flying back from Driftmark.

Allegedly. But like, I have questions. Elena was on Dreamfire spouting more prophecies for no one to take seriously. I hope she flew back with like her little butterfly net out, just like grabbing bugs as she went. That would be amazing. Just collecting new life forms.

Someone please draw me some art of Helena on her dragon collecting bugs. I would love to see it. I would say it. It's a dragons at gmail.com. Damon then mentions Vermax, Aerox, Tiraxies. That's Jace, Luke. Jop's dragons moon dancer. So Bala's moon dancer pointed out here, delightful.

Unclaimed dragons, Damon gets into here. See, Smoke. on Drift Mark. We still have some questions. We have a lot of questions. Verma Thor and Silver Wing at the Dragon Mon. The former mounts of King Jaharis and Good Queen Alassain. We will talk more about Vermithor later.

That is the dragon that Damon sings his lullaby to. And then the three wild dragons. These are cannibal, sheepstealer, gray ghost. He also mentions the incubating eggs. He does not mention some other egg or hatchling stuff that has not yet become part of the show math. He's talking about dragons who are potentially big enough

to ride into battle at this moment right now and then, of course, the incubating eggs. We talked about a couple of pods ago, this idea that he was building the arsenal with the eggs. And it's worth remembering here in addition to the math favoring them, the Dragonmont, Dragonstone,

that is superior to the dragon pit. One of those places is a nurturing volcanic bed of dragon power, and one of them is an oppressive closed space. So on the, is Damon a good stepdad front? I will say he says, your sons have Vermaxe, Erex, and Syraxies. So that's, that's no.

Not our sons. Not our good stepdad front. Once again. Oh, boy. Bela has, my daughter, Bella has moon dancer, right? Like, yeah. Terrible. Like, you know, the Brady's would never.

The Brady bunch would never. They're a blended family. It's horrible. Reneira has some notes here. None of their dragons have been to war. And also a ton of the dragons that Daman just mentioned don't have riders. Now, there are a lot of interesting book to show tweaks in this sequence. But I think I'll save the actual fire and blood passage for a little bit later when Damien gives us a line specifically from fire and blood.

But they flip the intent. What we should note here, though, is that, again, Damon and Rainira are the ones who are pitching a more deliberate course. Let's not rush the dragons into battle ahead of schedule. Reneas is the one in Fire and Blood who's like, what about this dragon math? So this is a notable tweak. And it's because Damon wants to end this quickly. He says we can, if they also get Harren Hall as this crucial seat on the map,

we could have every green head mounted on spikes before the fucking moon. turns, Joe. This is not a character who wants to take us time. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit at Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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about Trimphia today. Call 1-8-H0. 526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. No time to chat here, though, because Otto has arrived. So the rest of the Black Council will have to wait. Otto's here and he's flying a green dragon standard. Yeah, I thought it was a golden dragon last week, but I guess my... I thought so, too. I thought it was the golden dragon of Sunfire.

Yeah, but I guess that they're making it. you know, leaning into that house high-telling. Green. Boy. Okay, Joe, it's time for the bridge redux. Two mummers, two farcicle. Here we go. The bookend scene to episode two.

Two lovers, two farcical. You know, Damon got to deliver the mummers farce line this time. What a moment for him to throw that back in on us. Oh, my God. You're amazing. Sun seemed to be rising last time. This time clearly said.

on any hope of peace, though, everyone will tell you in fire and blooded and elsewhere that there was hope for peace until Magar chomped down on that little Triscuit snack. The parallels abound. Otto and Damon facing off, Renira arriving on Syrax,

the Mummer's Farsline, etc. Joe, let's talk here, what we teased earlier for a second, about how truly shocking it is that Otto would be the one deployed. Baffling move. Like, if this is some, So it meant to be some example.

Okay, so in theory, the terms that he presents here, the favorable terms to Reneira, is what Allison won in the race for Agon, right? This is what Allison wanted. If we're up to Otto, he would have sent some King's Guard in the dead of night to try to, I don't know, sneak past all the dragons and kill everyone. I don't know. I don't know how he was going to do that, but that was Otto's plan. Allison wants diplomacy.

So this is, so this is Allison's victory. Like, I get my diplomatic answer. Why she would undermine that entire strategy by setting fucking the worst person to offer terms. They hate this. Like, Damon, this is just like, first of all, Otto shows up and Damon grabs, like, we get the shot of him grabbing the sword, right? And he's just like, and you can tell, he's like, oh, guess what I get to do now? exactly what Reneer let me do to Vamed last week, which is like, I'm going to slice a head off.

I am, you know, that is 100%. You think I won't kill someone at a parlor? You saw me wave that white flag at the steps toes and then kill everyone? It's auto killing time. It's my moment. I'm ready. Remember? I know you do.

But remember at Lena's funeral when like apropos of absolutely nothing, Damon calls Otto a leech? Anyway, here we are with the world's worst. wants for another meal. Fucking auto high tower. Boy, Grandmaster Orwell is here in this scene. We should note that in Fire and Blood,

it is Orwile's mission. He is the one who says, Brother should not war against sister. Send me to her that we may talk and reach an amicable accord. One thing that I, you know, I wanted to note is that each side in Fire and Blood has their makes their offer,

has their terms of peace. And Reneira has hers too. I was struck in Otto's offer here by the use of the word trueborn for Jase that felt like the most meaningful olive branch. This is the thing that we know

really matters to you. In fire and blood, here's the passage for what Reneer is thinking. This will be a key tone setter for events to come. Her first act as queen was to declare Sir Otto Hightower and Queen Allison traders and rebels.

Again, maybe Otto, not the one to son. Passage continues. As for my half-brothers and my sweet sister Helena, as she announced, they have been led astray by the council of evil men. Let them come to Dragonstone, bend the knee, and ask my forgiveness, and I shall gladly spare their lives and take them back into my heart, for they are of my own blood, and no man or woman is as accursed as the Kid Slayer. We call that foreshadowly.

Dun, done, done. Gentle light, delicate foreshouted from George. Amen, did you hear that? No man or woman is as accursed as the kinslayer. Amen, we just want to make sure this message has reached you. Boy. But, you know, we talked about a lot last week, and I was really hung up on the idea that, like,

Allison going to Renice and saying that there was a path to peace, it's like, what path is there really? But I will acknowledge that in fire and blood. And I think when, when Condal and co have been talking about this episode, really, like, repeatedly, we are given reminders that there were still pathways

to some sort of, however, hesitant and delicate accord to an accord until Luke. But setting auto is not the way. I mean, House Beesbury maybe never would have felt like there was time for peace,

but pre-Luc, I think there is a, there is some way forward. Right. That is absolutely the point of no return. Joe, Reniro flying out on Syrac. This is a change. I talked about this on Talk to Thrones. I feel like a woman who just had traumatic, you know, labor, like, ripped a baby from herself.

Is not going to hop on the back of a dragon. In fact, it's a whole plot point in fire and blood that Reneer cannot get on the dragon because she has just gone through this, which is why Jason, Luke, et cetera, go off on her behalf because she can't get on a dragon. And she just went through labor. I got a couple emails about this post Talk to Thrones and people saying, like, I don't know, I didn't have that problem post birth. And I'm like, A, great for you.

But B, did you have to rip the baby out of yourself? Because that's what Reneer did. Anyway, Renner's just been Syrac. Again, I think this is just, why send auto? Parallelism. Why is Reneer here with Syrac? Parallelism. So we can mirror what happened in episode two on the bridge.

Right. And of course, Renira is on the other side this time, not trying to convince Damon, not challenging Damon, but going to Otto, calls her princess and saying, I am queen ripping his hand of the king pin off of his chest. Which I liked that a lot. In the book, it's she takes Orwell's chain off of him. So, I mean, okay, to give them all the credit that they deserve, it is much more powerful to have Otto here than Orwell. Because there's history with these characters. There's so much more powerful for her to rip the handpin off of Otto, then the chain off O'Rwell where we're like,

this guy just seemed to have good ideas about not using maggots. I don't know. You know, so anyway, absolutely. Damon cannot even stand still as Otto is talking. Steve, can we get a little taste of Damon's thoughts? I would rather feed my sons to the dragons than have them carry shields and cups. for your drunken usurp a cunt of a king. Okay, things are going well.

We're making progress. Love a British seabom. Together. This is where Otto drops the fire and bloodline, the every symbol of legitimacy line and enumerates the many advantages that Aigon has. And then he does something fascinating. It reminded me of Bakeoff,

Great British Bake Off, when Paul Hollywood is... I can't. I can't believe you're invoking Paul fucking Hollywood in this conversation. And every now and then, Joe, it's like he's looking at the dough and he tells the contestant something about how the dough should be made. And it's a shock when it happens because it gives somebody information that you're not supposed to provide. And so I was genuinely surprised when he went out of his way to note that they had sent, quote, generous terms to the Starks, the Tulley's and the Baratheans. Because it's basically akin to him saying this is what you need to do to recruit people to your side.

Guess what? It didn't work. It didn't matter. They missed that one. They missed that you need to pair the carrot with the sick. I gave you all the clues, Otto says. Wow. Oh, boy.

Generous terms. Okay. That fascinated me, Joe. Yeah. Renera reminds him that all of these lords were obeisance to her. This is akin to her asking where a while in fire and blood. Do you remember who, you remember Viseris? Remember that guy? Remember all of that history?

Otto just handwaves what he refers to as their stale oaths. I love, I love that phrase stale oaths. Me too. But it's like, it's surprising, I think, to hear him say that aloud because he is a character who is trying to collect and ensure oaths and to basically acknowledge that there's an expiration data that they don't need to matter. Like it made me, we've mentioned cat a lot. It made me think of cat saying treat your oaths recklessly.

and your people will do the same, like, characters need to remember that, that the oaths can't be treated recklessly, or others will do the same. And that, but that's just like classic auto constantly, where it's like, whatever I need the narrative to be,

that's where the moral high ground is. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, like, Damon's going to be a new Magor the Cruel. We have to make it for a Nira. Okay. Now that there's a boy involved, though, it's definitely not Reneira. You know, that line that he has, the succession changed the day your father, sired his son.

I only regret that you and he were the last to see the truth of it. Awful. Awful thing to say. But that's true. That's true of what Otto's, I mean, especially what his brother's attitude has been. Hail, hail, Aigon, the Conqueror, babe, you know? like second of his name Dietels, dietyl.

It made me think too if you mentioned that Renly line a couple of pods ago the men holding those bolts of cloth will make me king and like I think you feel in this exchange that Otto doesn't appreciate that.

Like it's just calculus for him. It's looking for the edge. It's not actually about the depth of that allegiance or why people would choose to fight for somebody. And it's always an important thing to track for any character who is working to build and forge. He's got something more than math, though. He's got a page from a book, Joe. Hands over the page that Renera tore out of the tomb when she and Allison were studying in the godswood in their use.

first of all, I would not, if I were trying to convince Renira to abandon her claim, remind her of Nymeria, a woman who fought and ruled. But what is your interpretation of this move overall? Is it the warmth of calling on that bond and affection? Is it weaponizing their history? How did it play for you? Based on what we've seen from Allison and like Allison desperately fighting to protect Reneer in the last episode, like, I do think this is a genuine gesture of like for the sake of our childhood friendship, like remember our bond. We got this interesting email from Geneva who writes, I'm sure by now you've seen the episode 10 theory circulating that Allison sent the ripped out page as a threat to Reneira,

citing the story of Namiria on the page in question as evidence. I actually interpreted it entirely differently. You would love to know if you all feel the same way. I saw that page as Allison making one last attempt to save her friend within the limited means of communication available to her. Namely, that after the events of the Green Council, Allison now knows that she cannot trust Otto or his word. Allison does not go to depend on Otto to convey her message. So she sent the page to make sure her true message is conveyed to Reneer, regardless of what the men around her, Otto, say her intention is. I interpreted that page as Allison telling Reneera to flee.

She was telling her, do not trust what Otto says. take your family and flee before he kills them. To me, that the page contains the story of Namiria fleeing a war of dragons to save her family only reinforces that, as well as the context of the last time we saw this page earlier in this season. And I, Joanna, would say, I really like this interpretation. Again, if that is true, and I'm Allison, I'm not sending Otto at all in the first place. But a reminder in the parallel episode and episode two when Otto shows up, he lies to Damon about Vassaris, right?

He shows up and Damon's like, where's the king? And he's like, the king couldn't be fucked. But what was true was that Otto, like, insisted that the king not go, right? And so Otto is happy to lie on the bridge of Dragonstone to whatever Targaryen he's talking to. So, like, if that, you know, if Allison has the measure of her father that well, I like the way that, like, this, she doesn't even send a note with it. She's just like, I'm going to let this speak, you know, for me. me. The idea of like that the story of Namiria fleeing, like, is that both Reynese and Allison being

like, get out of here? I don't know. What do you think? I do like that interpretation. And I could absolutely see that being Allison's logic. I find that then like so disappointing because even if, even if she's doing that out of a desire to protect and preserve peace and prevent war, it's still akin to saying the only way to do that is for you to give up your birthright. Like, Allison has still made her choice. And I can't shake

that even though this is like the final push that Allison is making and the reason that the chase for Hagon ensued and everything, that she was the one at the Green Council who said, you know they'll never bend the knee. Now, Reneera is considering in subsequent scenes, how she will respond, what message she will give to King's Landing on the morrow. But I don't know, like, it's not a reasonable thing to ask.

That's where I come down. However much warmth is it like. Damon agrees with you. We got an email from Colin as well, who points out that Otto not even mentioning Vassaris' dying words to Allison on the bridge to Rainier is wild. All it did was move Allison to be okay

with putting Agon on the throne as her duty. So, I mean, we know that Otto probably doesn't really believe that Vassar said this or anything like that. We know that he was just going along, you know, because it would get Allison moving faster. And also, like, he could sort of dangle it in front of the kneeling lords. But, like, still, I'm curious why Otto didn't trot out the little piece of state propaganda on the bridge here. I mean, what would be the point?

Like there's not a tread of possibility that Reneira or Damon or anyone there would believe that for a second. All it would do, I think, is further in sight their... Curie. Yeah. And there's plenty of that already. Steve, can you give us another taste of how this is going over with Damon? Queen Alison Degley awaits your answer. She can have her answer now, stuffed in her father's mouth along with his withered cop.

Let's end this mama's father. Really something. something. But despite the unsheathing of the shield and the invoking of the withered cock and the mummer's farce callback, Joe, we do not actually get bloodshed here. Reniro prevents it again, as Renira did in episode two.

Damon listens to her again. It shocked me here. But what I was more struck by was that Syrax's irritation and agitation seemed to be what signaled to Renira. We've got to get out of here now.

Another tie between dragon and rider. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it's just like, this is going to feed into this next scene. Yes. This conflict between Damon and Rainer, but, like, he definitely thought he was going to get

to kill Otto High Tower on that bridge. Like, 100% definitely thought that he and Renair would be on the same page about that like they were with Vamont. So again, this speaks to a misalignment of Damon's expectation of what Rennira wants from his. and what their team is about.

Right. And we, like you said, we fall right back into that because the black council reconvenes and Damon just picks up with the dragon planning immediately. He says, this is the line we were teasing.

It's no easy thing for a man to be a dragon slayer, but dragons can kill dragons and have, the simple truth is this, we have more dragons. So this is, this is the taking the, you know, pulling the line from fire and blood, but flipping Damon's intent.

And I was so fascinating. by this. One of the first lines is surprisingly Prince Damon agreed with his wife. That's how we're brought into Damon's mindset. That's where we are in fire and blood. Right. In fire and blood. Quote, it is no easy thing for a man to be a dragon slayer, but dragons can kill dragons and have any maister who has ever studied the history of Valeria can tell you that. I will not throw our dragons against the usurpers unless I have no other choice. There are other ways to use them better ways. So this is a big, a big shift.

Huge difference. Yeah. And Reneira is like, I'm a student of history too, as was Viseris, and here are all the things I learned and says, when dragons flew to war, everything burned, I do not wish to rule over a kingdom, over a kingdom of ash and bone. Joe, it is impossible hearing that,

as a throne's viewer, to not think of Daeneres Targaryen and the queen of the ashes. idea. When your favorite, Lord Keltigar, asks, are you considering the hide hour's offer? Reneera says her duty as queen is to ensure peace. And this is where we then move into Damon's challenge of, well, the enemy of declared war, what are you going to do about it? Renira clearing the room and to the two of them discussing the prophecy. Because the prophecy, the knowledge of the prophecy, what Viseras passed down to her and trusted her with, is what is informing this focus

on unity and peace above just pushing her claim. And I loved the way Reneira asked Damon if we're excited him. Like, if you could take the throne without killing Otto, would you? Right. How much is this just about a dick measuring contest between David Targary and Otto High Tower? Exactly. Plunging the realm into war. Right.

For this personal vendetta and this personal... Yeah. guiding, misguiding, vengeance. And then she brings up the prophecy. Steve, let's hear it. You know my oath reaches beyond our personal ambitions. A song of ice and fire. The coming war against the darkness in the north,

the conqueror's dream. Sarah shed it with me when he named to meet her. Okay. Damon looks at Renaira like he has genuinely no idea what she is talking about, which he does not, and then reaches out, grabs Reneira's neck, and chokes her. As he says, my brother was a slave to his omens and portents,

anything to make his feckless reign appear to have more purpose. Dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did. This is a deeply, deeply upsetting and disturbing and horrific sequence. There's a lot to parse here. We talked about this on Sunday night on Talk the Thrones. We've had a little more time to sit with this now. how are you processing all of this in terms of Damon's arc and the decision to add in this moment of violence that is not in the text? I just want to echo something that you said explicitly, and I thought I made clear, but I just want to make sure I make clear that I agree with Mallory that any time we are adding violence to a story, especially violence towards women, especially violence towards women that has corollaries to our real life.

versus, you know, someone getting eaten on Dragonback, like that it gives me pause, it disturbs me, all of that. Like, Mallory and I are on the same page with that. And, like, I think that, you know, thinking about the Jamie Lannisters and the Tyrion Lannisters who have pushed children out of window or choked women to death and all this sort of stuff, and thinking about how this is a

Damon Targaryen as a character who has always existed in the gray it's all interesting to me but I do think it's a salient point to say people watching this who have experienced domestic violence there's a difference again between watching a dragon battle or like some sort of heightened fantastical violence

and something that's very, very familiar to people who have experienced domestic violence in their life. That's just like a different kind of violence to see in the show here. We got this interesting email from Sarah who says, The story seems to go out of its way to show the characters we love make sometimes villainous choices. But we understand those choices are a result of characters' lives, experiences in a world that treats them a certain way.

The show doesn't excuse their choices but provides context and allows the audience to choose any degree of empathy for a potentially villainous character. because the context is there. So I think that's really key is, like, I would never tell anyone how they're supposed to feel about this. I don't think the show would ever try to condone anything

that Damon does here. If we want to think about how George R. Martin describes Damon Targaryen, which is over the centuries how Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Damon was both in his day

that was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all of Westrose. He was made of light. and darkness in equal parts. To some, he was a hero, to others, the blackest of villains. Again, also another Fire and Blood quote, the vilest of men and the wickedest of women's likewise may do good from time to time

for love and compassion to pity may be found in even the blackest of hearts. What Fire and Blood is going to constantly be asking you to do is to exist uncomfortably in the moral gray. I don't love this year. I think it could have been accomplished differently. And I almost, part of it comes down to like editing and timing too, where like I just don't even feel like we get a moment to process what Damon is processing here before all of this happens.

And it's interesting to me. So like our understanding based on various interviews that, you know, Ryan Condal and Miguel Sopachnik have given, Emma Darcy gave an incredible. incredible interview and British GQ about this, is this idea that Damon is responding to feeling like Vassaris left him out, that he was never considered a true heir or maybe even more importantly, just considered a close enough ally that I think the way that Amadarcy put it was like, you know, Viseras is a person that Damon loves more than anyone else in the show.

And to be on the outside, similar to how Allison finds herself on the outside, of the conversation last week, to find himself on the outside of this very important conversation is what he's reacting to. And I think it's interesting, again, to think about when he is reacting to feeling left out on the outside of a conversation

and reacting to watching Rainira espouse Vesaris language when he thought that their marriage was about two like-minded dragons going forward in the world. And he's like, know when I back in the position where my brother constantly rejected me for my nature. And I thought I found a partner whose nature matched mine so that, again, we are not,

nor shall we ever be excusing anything Damon is doing here. I'm just trying to understand the psychology. I was going back and look at Renira's proposal to Damon, right, that she gives in High Valerian in that episode where she says, you know, I need you, Uncle, right? But then she says, let us bind our blood, just as Agon the Conquer did with his sisters. With you as my husband and Prince Consort, any questions regarding my claim would be silenced forever. The Valarians are of the sea, but you and I are made a fire.

We have always been meant to burn together. It's not just a romantic love. It's a war counsel that she is in that proposal. And so that is Damon's understanding of their relationship is like, we are going to burn everything together as two dragons. And so when he sees her, and I think it's so interesting that that moment is intercut with Allison conscripting Laris into her service. And we talked a bunch last week about Kristen Cole and Laris as these two unruly dogs

that Allison barely has on a leash and are constantly doing shit that she's just like, no, that's not what I meant. And so similarly, Damon is here and we see the, absolute danger of trying to have someone like Damon Targaryen on your team or on your leash. Just the way that we are to understand the absolute farce that it is to think you have control of dragons in general, which is the main thesis of this season, episode, and possibly series. those are some of the thoughts about this very, very controversial and alarming, disturbing, distressing sequence that we see here. You made a great point on Sunday's pod about how Damon's arc is not going to be a neat and tidy one defined by progress or redemption.

that that is not, that is not Damon's character, nature, or story. And I think that like a couple different things can be true at once. I think that what happens here does fit with what we have seen from Damon. Like this is a character who murdered his first wife. Like we have seen Damon do horrific things. We have heard him talk about the depressed. that he is capable of. We know that Damon is somebody

who can inflict atrocity and horror not only on enemies, but on people who are close to him. I think, though, that, like, in part because of that, it did spark that, then do we need this response in me?

Like, it's not that I think this is in conflict with who we are meant to understand Damon to be. It's not, that's not it at all. When the shows choose to add these moments of violence that are against women that are not in the text,

I do always, and I think a lot of, a lot of viewers experience something similar. Like, I do always wonder whether it is necessary and why it needed to happen there. And I think that, as you said, like the scene and that sense of inferior, and betrayal that Damon is feeling when he realizes again that he was not in Vassaris's confidence, perhaps in this most monumental way. I think that there are other ways of showing us the

impact that that had on Damon. I completely agree with you. And ones that frankly would allow us then to focus on that takeaway more so than on this this really horrific moment of violence itself. And it's fascinating to me because I completely, I don't, I don't. think we need it. I'll say this. I think Damon's been getting such an interesting edit this season. We've seen so many things cut out of his character, like hugging his daughters after Lena is killed, baffling to me that the Game of Thrones Twitter account tweeted that out when they decided to cut it from the episode. We've seen a lot of edits of Damon, and I think what Condal, et cetera, are really struggling with is how to give us a character that is this much in the gray

in a way that we're pretty unused to, I think, in Western literature. And I think the edit that they've settled on more often than not is to not show the thing or not have Damon talk. There's so many silent moments and moments where Matt Smith is just carrying us on a look that I think the show is then forcing us to fill in the gaps for ourselves. So when you get that to some people, he's a hero, to others, he's a villain binary that Martin is describing. The best way to do that is to show you a blank slate and allow you to project on it. Now, obviously, killing his wife, choking his other wife, beating a messenger, all this other shit that we have literally seen Damon do.

That's not a blank slate, but it's blinker than it might otherwise be, not show him at, often not show him at his worst, but also not show him at his best either. Yeah, and I think like the, you know, we've mentioned many times, including like in our preview pods when we were anticipating the show, that Damon is one of George's favorite characters to write because he is so emblematic of that, of that moral gray that defines the character set in the dance of the dragons overall. And, you know, we've talked a lot about that over our pods that it's not like a tidy heroes versus villains, protagonist, antagonist, divide in the dance as a story overall. And the challenges then of getting that right with Damon, speak to the challenges of crafting a story like that overall where you don't have the traditional I am rooting for and against neatly these clusters of people. There are people maybe on the side that you are rooting for who are capable of atrocities. And it horrifies you to see the things that they do. There are people on the side that you are rooting against who do things where you say, boy, like, I wish the people in the team I'm rooting for, we're thinking of it that strategically

and thinking of it that way. That's very much at the heart of how this story and character set is structured. This scene definitely speaks to some of the challenges of exploring that with not only nuance, but like, you know, the real care that is required. I think that in terms of the, you know, you mentioned,

and the psychology aspect of it in terms of like what Damon is actually realizing in that moment this great secret that he didn't know

you know I do think it's really interesting that when he says here the dragons did line like it's the exact inverse of Vassaris

has previously stated what is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy line and further like cements how central this dragon power is to the way that he is thinking about what it means to be a Targaryen.

Like, you know, you mentioned the proposal. Like, I was thinking also to the throne room confrontations between Vissaris and Damon and the way that Damon in those moments of high tension was always citing like what he thought it meant to be a Targaryen when he says the blood of the dragon runs thick or you are the dragon. and your word is truth and law.

Like, he cannot, cannot see the way, the world, the way that Vesaris saw it. I think it's also really important to think about, you mentioned students of history earlier. I think it's really important to think about, like, we think about Vassaris as the student of history, right? But, you know, of course, Damon hold up in the Pento's library

and was reading all these weird old, you know, dragon texts, which we're going to talk about later. But, like, that's two different approaches to history, right? Vesaris is constantly thinking about the doom, constantly, constantly, constantly thinking about the doom of Valeria. And what all of the Targary, the dragon lords delving too greedily and too deep towards this, like, you know, divine power. what that resulted in,

whereas Damon is completely obsessed and preoccupied with those efforts towards divine power, that, like, you know, we see him delving himself in this episode, you know? And so I think it's really interesting. My read had been earlier in the season that Vassaris was wrong to reject his dragon nature, but I think in this episode,

I want to go back and rewatch and understand maybe that the thesis of this season is not that Vassaris is wrong, that Vesaris perhaps had it right, and perhaps as we watch the Dance of Dragons, you know, the answer to this question is we shouldn't have ever meddled with this in the fucking first place, you know?

Yeah, and I think like, I was thinking about that as well. We'll obviously talk about the idea of dragons and control and the hubris at play there when we talk about Aemend and Luke and Vagar and Ayr, later, but, like, even in that moment where Reneira says he never told you, did he?

And we think about, like, the way that this family, like, this is the story of the dissolution of a family, but also it is the story of the secrets that the members of this family carry and, like, the inability of the various members of this family to, like, bring somebody else into their understanding. And so I was thinking a lot of, lot of like the duality of the burden of Rainer carrying this secret across this episode and like

the number of times where she's saying things to her war counsel, for example, and like no one, no one understands what is fueling her point of view mixed in with like the validation that Reneira is feeling in this moment where she realizes that Viseres entrusted her was something that he didn't trust to anybody else, including his brother. Right. So here's the quote from Emma and British GQ where they say I don't think he Damon has been violent to her Reneer before although I think

there's been a lot of conflict but fundamentally when Reneer realizes Damon was never taught the prophecy she suddenly gains legitimacy because she understands that it was her she was chosen for this there's this huge question for her all the way through the series you chose me now you don't

fucking speak to me Sarah's she was tasked with uniting the kingdom when she becomes queen but by naming her His heir of his Sarah has done the opposite because his heir is a woman and that is divided the kingdom. She begged him to show her what to do because she can't do it alone. I think in this scene she gets a message from beyond the grave. The moment that she understands that Damon wasn't chosen. Wow, it was never you.

Simultaneously, Damon gets shafted from beyond the grave by his brother, who he loves more than any other character in the show. On the one hand, he can say that he doesn't believe in prophecies, but he was never trusted to anyway. And yeah, last line, he was never trusted to anyway. Incredible stuff. Emma Darcy, very insightful, as always. But also, this is a double blow for Damon, who is also, we should say, lost a daughter in this episode,

lost a brother in this episode. The double blow is Vasaris never told me. Also, in the last six years of our marriage, my wife has never talked to me about this either. It's very curious to me that Renira has never brought this up in the six years of their marriage together, you know what I mean?

I mean, I think the reason why is they wanted this dramatic moment to reveal it, But this is something we've been constantly talking about, what the prophecy, what knowing about the prophecy does for readers of Georgia and Martin, viewers of the show, which is to help us understand various people's motivations. We look at Targary Monarchs throughout the history and think about this prophecy weighing on their minds. And we've been talking about what will this do to the dance to have one side, Reneira, now Rennira and Damon, know about the prophecy. and the other side not. Right? Well, right here, at least,

one thing that it's doing is leading to more restraint for Renera, which is what Renice brings up when she is reunited with the waking Corlis in the next scene. He pulls a little

A-O-N-you-N-you-no-man business here. And Renice is like, you bailed. We lost our kids and you bailed and you left me alone. and it's the first thing that she says to him when he wakes up, and she was right to.

Which is what Allison said to her, right? Yes, yeah, absolutely. When he asked about Fissera, she tells him about Baman, and this is when we get that great, the stranger casts a long shadow over this family line, but we also get a little bit of a surprising change from Corliss, who starts to lament the way that ambition has led his family astray and says he is ready to retire from the person,

pursuit of the Iron Throne. And my note to Corlis is, to be honest, this is a bad time for that change of heart because the fight for the Iron Throne is on. It's happening right now. You're sleeping. You missed it, bud, but we're, war's here. While you were sleeping, House of the Dragon, Supercut, let's go. Damon sliced your brother's head and kind of half off his shoulders. Joe, we've chatted a lot about how Rayne Nice across this episode is working toward her new position, but this is where it is cemented. And to swing Corliss back, she mentions here, surprisingly, the three strong boys.

And that I think, the fact that she mentions those kids in particular, who she was very ready to have that shadow cast upon previously, speaks to this new mindset, this new position that she is occupying. And when Corlis is Grenier, that... last possible moment, Rainis decides that Luke is her grandson. Oh, boy. Little eight, little eight.

Corliss, this was an interesting moment to have the close captioning on for the episode because when Corlis says that girl destroys everything she touches of Renera, I had multiple, like, it might just be time to pull them aside and tell them that Lainor's alive moments, by the way, watching this episode. We'll revisit that in season two. Rainis replies, that girl, and girl is in quotes in the subtitle. Like, she's emphasizing that word choice that he's saying, girl, that he's pointing that out about Reneer. That girl is holding the realm together at present.

Every man standing around the painted table urges her to plunge the realm into war. Reneer is the only one who's demonstrated restraint. And we think back again, you mentioned the cup bearer part of it to that combo in episode two. And Reneer is saying, when I am queen, I will create a new order. And it's like this here, this episode and the events of this episode, it's when Reneas believes that that might actually be possible. that Rainira is capable of thinking about things and acting in a way that none of the man around that table frankly have any interest in even thinking about.

You feeling steady on the Renisarck frontier? I think Eve Best is doing an incredible job with a trajectory that doesn't always make sense to me. Inside of individual moments, I really feel it. And then sometimes when I take the wider view, it feels a little messy to me. Right. Yeah.

This idea that they seeded from the start, that Rainis has her doubts about Rainier and that, you know, now is the moment when Rainis decides this is it. Okay, we're going to put in cause here. Again, we'll talk on Thursday about sort of what that all means down the road. But I think it's interesting. Corle is just like, it's just assumed in the book that Corlees is going to make common cause with Renira, right? Their families are blended. Like he's obviously, obviously, Reneer has Corleason and the Navy. Like, that's in, that's in Otto's calculations from the beginning, right? And so the fact that they made it a dramatic sort of question mark is, is interesting inside this episode. And speaks to more

inside the family division and, you know, microcosm of the larger Civil War. Yeah, for sure. That Microcos and also like it's because of the way it plays out in the show, it's as much, oh, okay, I'm adding to the ledger. We have the Valerian fleet. Check. We can control shipping lanes and cut off trade. Check. We have the wealth of House Valerian check.

And it's almost more like, okay, we didn't lose them. Like how devastating would that have been in terms of the political. It's done. And what that would represent. So Corlis on the same page with Renice now joins the council. the council. This is a good model for Reneer and Damon.

It's like, get on the same page before you stand on opposite size at the drag glass table and sort of like shoot daggers at each other with your eyes.

Right? This is the married United Front that you should, that you should present. If you do your prep in advance, then it allows you when you enter the room

to very dramatically renounce 45 years of Star Wars canon by saying, Hope is the Fool's ally. Truly shocking stuff here for... Rebellions of Bill's or No. So my goodness.

It's like the cousin of that Laris Love is a downfall speech from episode six. This very grim, heavy tone inside of Westro's, certainly not new, but it's like when you play the Game of Thrones, you need more than sentiment. You need more than just believing.

But also you then do need to believe in the cause because if you don't, who will. So this is always something that's like a really rich thread to track. I also loved that when Reneira very grateful to have House Valerian, certainly, says if worst stroke is to fall,

it will not be by my hand. Corliss is like, you do not mean to act? And we know, we know he's thinking, oh boy, is this Vassaris 2.0? Is this another ruler who's going to await the storms coming? Because he found that so deplorable in terms of how Vassaris conducted his politics. But Reneer is happy to clarify.

not like a pure pacifist here. I want to build my strength. Reneira says, taking caution does not mean standing fast. I wish to know who my allies are before I send them to war. And again, it made me think of Cadjo. Very different context,

but when Kat said to Rob about building your relationships, it's not as exciting as secret passion in the woods, but it is stronger. It lasts longer. I was thinking about that with Renira here. And the wisdom. to not rush in as hard as it might be. We then get a triarchy mention.

I mean, shout out to Chris Ryan. thrilling time for Chris. What a day for Chris Ryan. Oh, boy. Corlis suggests stealing off the gullet. Renice says she's going to take Males. So it is her war now. And then your guy, Kelthagar says,

seizure the Red Keep. This is where we're leading. Keltygar, by the way, Keltergar did so much action in this episode that I'm just like, I would have liked to have met him one up, like, previous to this episode. Very active.

This is an all Eric and Aric moment where I'm just sort of like... Let's have a lot of lines around Ye old Bainted Table. I mean, way more than... Like, I think he has more lines than Jace. You know, definitely more lines than Bela and Raina. Anyway.

It's a key moment for him, too, because it sparks this final push. Well, if we're going to try this, we need more allies, we need Winterfell, we need the area, we need Storm's End. And when the Mastor or suggest sending Ravens Joe, what does Jace suggest instead? Send some children on Dragonback.

It'll be a great move. No, okay. So in Fire and Blood, this is how it rolls out Fireblood. Then up spoke the queen's eldest son, Gassaris. We should bear those messages, he said. Dragons will win the lords over quicker than Ravens. His brother Luceris agreed, insisting that he and Jace were men or near enough to make no matter.

Our uncle calls us strongs when the Lord see us. on Dragonback, they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons. Mushroom tells us that the sea snake grumbled at this, insisting that the three boys were Florians, yet he smiled as he said it with pride in his voice. Even young Joffrey chimed in, offering to mount his own dragon, Teraxes, and join his brothers. Now in the book, Jaff, I think is a little older than he has a show, but anyway,

Rainer is like, okay, I draw the line at sending the toddler on the dragonback. but we talked about this and Talk the Thrones, how the circumstances are a little different in terms of, like, Rainier and not being able to ride. It makes this decision a little shaky that Baylor as a dragon is standing right there and is visibly older than... Why don't you said Baylor with Luke?

Like, you know, like... And if Reneer's whole thing is, like, come, girls stand by the table, I don't understand why Bayla, you know, doesn't get to hop on her dragon and join in this diplomacy mission. But anyway, it's the strong boys, proving that they have dragon blood in them.

So sad, hopping on their dragons to go off here. Yeah. That fire and bloodline of Luke, like, this will show them. This will show them. Oh, boy, just kills me. It made me think hearing J. say this year of Renera in episode two saying to Vassaris, you have dragon riders, father, send us.

And, like, there's, There's always been this, like, was this the right thing to do debate, right? Like, even Reneira says in Fireblood, like, well, three of those writers, so you're, you're counting my kids. I don't want to send them out there to do this. And it's not like it's an easy decision for her. That's when she was talking. Yeah, and that's when she was talking about, like, the battle. The dragon math.

When they're doing the dragon math. Exactly. And she's like, okay, when you're tallying up those dragon writers, three of them are my cute, cute, sweet boys. Right. And it's like part of why there's this real emphasis on your envoys. like you're messengers, you're not warriors, because there is that distinction at play for her. But it's like impossible not to think of her in her youth saying to her father, like, I'm ready for this. I can help you. Let me help you. And then her doing it without his leave and it working. And the way that

her perspective is now like a parent instead of that child who was so eager to head out into the field is what bearing that has on the decisions and then the regret moving forward. It's just really, really, really heart-wrenching. And in that Messengers not Warriors scene, Joe, I was also so interested by the religious aspect, making them swear in the seven. Which is a point in the book, right? Not until both boys had sworn solemn oaths upon a copy of the seven-pointed star, would her grace consent to using them as her envoys? It's just like in the show with the emphasis of the faith for Allison, it stands out in a new way. They had to like sort of, I mean, I think it's interesting that they didn't just cut that part, but they bothered to include it and having her talk about like, okay, we're dragon lords, we're basically gods ourselves. But if you're going to rule as, you know, ahead of the seven kingdoms, like we have to engage in their customs as well.

So here between just the three of us on this wall here, let's swear on this book. Yeah. Let's swear on this book and I'll send you off with a very, a very reassuring. checkoffs, I expect you will receive a very warm welcome. I'm sure it will be fine. We get a fun intriguing for book readers. So first to the area to see my mother's cousin, the lady Jane Aaron, and then to Winterfeld to treat with Lord Cregan Stark, with the support of the North.

Cregan Stark is close to your age. Yes. Then is mine. A fun little sundoff for Jace there. Definitely. Lemon cakes, you love lemon cakes. Starks! You love Stark.

The Starks are coming. Got this email from Beth that I really love about Raniar here as a mom in this moment. Beth wrote very often in these stories about the fight for power and ambition. Mothers are either portrayed as angels or monsters with either a pure love and martyrdom for their children

or a warped unhealthy kind of obsession like Circe. Or even pure neglect. The Roy Kids' mom succession. What an icon. All right. The reality of being a mother, particularly in a modern society, is so much more complex than that. I do, as a mother, find it very difficult to watch this show sometimes, given how much the filmmakers have leaned into this theme of childbirth as a horror show this season.

What I love most about this portrayal of Roneira is that being a mother doesn't change who she is, not really. She loves her children, obviously, and wants to protect them and raise them to be good people. But the safest thing for her kids would obviously be to give up the throne and relinquish her birthright, but she's not going to do that. She is still a fully formed, complex individual with ambitions and desires and responsibilities that have nothing to do with her children. That scene where she is giving birth while the men are plotting war is a representation of how gender can and is often used against her and how women are often fighting this battle between their bodies and their roles as leaders. It reminds me of the scene of the small council where her breasts start leaking.

It's not a sign of weakness, but men in power will surely view it as such. Emma Darcy said something about how Renera resisted the call to motherhood but that she came to realize that she could build a tribe. vibe around herself. For political game, sure, but also for the support and love that having a family can provide. The sense that you gain a better understanding of who you are and what you're capable of when you have people counting on you. And one is your responsibility to raise young people to be good, particularly men who will not make the same bad choices that the toxic men around you make. All this to say, I guess, that while I'm not in line to sit the Iron Throne, I do feel very seen by Reneer, Targaryen. And like, this has been the constant question. This is Joanne.

This is been the constant question from critics of the show of, like, who do I even root for? And I think the question of rooting is maybe not necessarily how you should be thinking of the show. But like, it is nice to see yourself reflected even in these sort of heightened circumstances. And so to see this nuanced portrayal of motherhood and Reneer, I think it's why we're thinking about Kat a lot. Because, you know, Catlin is such a complicated maternal figure in a Song of Ice and Fire. I really love that email from Beth. That's a great one. Yeah, I again was thinking of Kat here when Renera is sending off Luke.

And like he looks so young here in particular in this farewell calling her mother and then correcting himself to say like your grace. And in thinking of Cat finding Rob at war, you mentioned on Talk to Thrones, Ned talking about how young Rob is when he thought he had gone to or just a boy. But like Cat literally saying to Rob like, I remember the day you came into this world. and like your red cheeks and your cries. And you just know that Reneira is thinking about her sweet little baby there, but also trying to buoy him with confidence as she sets him on that little hop, skip and a jump down to Storm's End. And like, when the dragons take off, Errex is fluttering in the wind like a leaf here.

Well, before the storm. well before Amand or Vagar enter the fold. And, like, I was thinking of Regal and Vassarian and how they just weren't ready. Like, they just weren't ready for the world that they were sent out into, but the needs of the moment, like, demanded it. And it's just absolutely heart-wrenching

to think about how tiny and young, Arak's and Luke are here. Fire and Blood is his, Luke's mission would be shorter and safer. He was to fly to Storm's End where it was expected that Boris Baratheon would give give him a warm welcome. So it's be an easy little, easy little mission for a little Luke.

But yeah, I mean, I told you, I told you that you're more affected by mystical creatures than I am generally when we watch things and read about them. But the dragon design on Arak's end, just the little, the struggle of the wings, the struggle of the wings in that takeoff. When we see, there's some questions about this, who are the three dragons, right? So it's Jason Vermax, Rainy's on Melis, because she says she'll go patrol the gullet, right? So she's off to do something. So those are the two larger dragons, and then Aerox is just so tiny. And again, so we're going to talk again about Dragon Math after the Battleshipbroker's Bay. But like, this always has to be taken into account when you're doing Dragon Math.

It's never a one-to-one, right? So it's like if you count ARAX, it's not the same as counting even Vermax, let alone Maly's, let alone Vagar. So, yeah. There's a reason that we made such a big deal of Otto in the episode where Amon claims Vagar saying it's worth a thousand times the price he paid. Like, Vagar is a different thing entirely. The line from Fireblood is Amon, one-eye rode vagar, and the peril posed by Queen Vassinia's mount could not be gainsaid. Like, it's like you said, the math is not one-to-one there for sure. And I mean, we saw in that scene where we get the pink dread practical joke that, by the way, was definitely Agon's idea in the first place.

But like that sort of sets all this in motion. But, you know, that Agon and Chase and Luke and Jop all get baby dragons that they're raising up. up with them, right? And that's not what happened here with Vagar. Let's talk about old dragons. Yeah, before we're back with sweet, sweet baby ARAx, we get Damon's song, this trip into the dragon mont where Damon approaches a new dragon, Vermethore, who we'll talk about more in a second. But Joe, let's talk about this high Valerian lullaby for a minute here. Can you run us through these lyrics? Our pal's history of West Rose posted this on Twitter. Also, I only found the set a couple days ago, but David Peterson, who we've met at Conner Thrones, who does the

Valerian language for the show, has been posting translations of all the Valerian that is not always subtitled. On AO3, which is a fanfic website, archive of our own AO3. So if you search David Peterson, A.O.3, he's been posting them as if they're chapters of a fanfic, each episode is its own chapter. So this had not been published by the time we did Talk the Thrones on Sunday, but we have it now, which is fire breather, winged leader, but two heads to a third sing. From my voice, the fires have spoken

and the price has been paid with blood magic. With words of flame with clear eyes to bind the three to you I sing. As one we gather and with three heads, we shall fly as we were dusted beautifully, freely.

I want to contrast this. So like three heads of the dragon. We have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this language. But I want to contrast it actually to the wedding vows that Damon and Reneer exchange. Blood of

two joined as one. Ghostly flame and Song of Shadows. Two hearts as embers forged in 14 fires. A future promised in glass. The stars stand witness. The vow spoken through time of darkness and light. This, I'm like, so I don't know exactly what math Damon is doing here.

I mean, we have a lot of questions about what this even is. Because in theory, dragon rider, dragon bonding is like a one-to-one for life arrangement. A dragon will take another rider after the dragon's rider has died. But a rider, there's no precedent for a rider bonding with more than one dragon. Right. So the dragon has three heads is a long and complicated thing in a song and vice and fire to say the least. Right? Yeah.

De Nairis's brother, there must be three, you know, is something that he was convinced. Agon and his two sisters, the three heads of the dragon as they do their conquest. But the question is like, what is the math that Damon is doing here as, I mean, it almost feels like he's inviting a third into his marriage. But my question is, like, is the marriage between Damon and Karaxes and this is the third? Or is he considering Damon and Karaxis, Reneura and Syrac and Vermethore is the third of that set? But I just think it's so interesting to have this concept of three inviting this third. And this is why is Damon doing this as a question people are asking, who maybe aren't as familiar with the text, is like he, as he mentioned earlier, we've got wild. dragons, we've got unclaimed dragons, he's trying to shore up their dragon numbers. And what better

way to try to combat Vagar than to try to get someone like Vermethor, who as we see is huge, not as huge as Vagar, but huge on their side. Second biggest after Vagar at this time. But I think, yeah, but I think that question of like three versus the two, he and Reneer are being united as two in their marriage, and then him being like, but I'm going to introduce this fire. unpredictable, craggy, violent element of Vermethor into the equation here.

It's so interesting. The dragon has three heads part of it. I've been thinking about basically nonstop. I feel like we're just going to have a day randomly in like

mid-January where we're like, we need to do a pod just on this. We have some new thoughts on it. Like this is kind of a big deal for a song of voice

and fire ads. The other line Joe similarly that I think is sparking a ton of theorizing as the blood magic line because that, that way lies danger, right? And we know in what we've seen in Game of Thrones,

but also think back again, it gets to your point about that divide between Vesaris and demon, Vesaris's warnings and this threat that dragons and dragon magic posed and what happened with the doom of Valeria and the mages. I was thinking of Dineris.

Me too, right? Because the price has been paid with blood magic. What does he mean by that? And I could only think my daughter. I know. I was thinking about that too, which is horrific. Right. Like, not the demon intentionally, you know, not, you know, but like, okay, I've, I have burned my daughter and in exchange for that blood sacrifice.

Again, not one that he planned, but like every opportunity, right, I now require an exchange this dragon. Again, this is new lore that we don't have. The other language, and this brings us right back to rings of power. to bind the three. The use of the word, bind cannot be accidental because book readers will be aware of this horn,

dragon binder. Yes. Which is a huge part of a song of ice and fire that didn't make it into the TV show. I'm still sitting here years later, like,

who says the horn that Sam dug up wasn't going to connect to some of these horn theories about the wall? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I refuse to let go of any.

the horn sense of the same the sam the sam horn that is dug up and then never mentioned again one of my biggest bones to take but anyway uh no it's not true it's a medium bone um but yeah your on gray joy shows up with this horn that horn you heard i found amongst the smoking ruins that were valeria where no man has dared to walk but me you heard its call and felt its power it's a dragon horn bound with bands of red gold and valerian steel graven with enchantments the dragon lord of old sounded such horns before the doom devoured them. With this horn, iron men, I can bind dragons to my will. And the old Valerian on the horn reads,

I am dragon binder. No mortal man shall sound me and live. Blood for fire, fire for blood. This is the kind of spooky shit that Damon has been like studying up on and has decided. So like, why is Vermethor so special, though, Mallory? I just want to thank you for the dragon binding. download there because that was also honestly thrilling to see in these lyrics.

Because it gets back to what you were saying earlier about. It seems clear that one of the show's intentions is to expand the dragon lore. And this question of the horn, but more broadly, like how dragon binding works, what that relationship between rider and dragon is, but also then are there ways that others can seek to bind a dragon to their cause

and what horrors can unfold when people try that? Like, because the cost we should say of the dragon horn is that whoever blows it dies. You just turn to like a char. Like ash lung, right? So like you have to bring expendable people with you to blow the horn. And then you are like, I buy you, dragon. It's like, what is Damon trying to do? Is it something he's trying to do for himself?

Is it something he's trying to do for their cause more broadly? I was very struck by the pupils and the eyes. We talked about this on Talk of the Throne. Like we see Damon in Vermithor's eye, and then we zoom in on Damon's eye. And it's like, it definitely works as just a reinforcement of this theme of the reflection of dragon and Targaryen and the connection between them,

this idea of the Targaryens being closer to gods than men because of the dragons. But also I was like, is that just the reflection moving in his eye or something actually happening? Is there some sort of magic afoot in a bind in a link there. Vermithor as a figure, though,

independent of anything that Damon is doing here with this song is fascinating. We talked earlier about the crown and the heft of that symbol. Vermithor was Jahris's dragon. So if you have Jeharis's former mount,

Jeharis the Conciliator, this great long-reigning, the old king, if you have his dragon on your side, like, that means something to people. And one of the things I've always loved about fire and blood and the Jaharis stretches in particular is the way that Jeharis used Vermethor. Now, the Bronze Fury, second biggest dragon at this time of the story after Vagar, as I mentioned,

huge formidable beast, scary, important in battle. As Reneer noted, like these dragons haven't seen war. Vermethore's actual battle experience is pretty limited, again, because of the very peaceful rain, but has seen battle, Dorn, etc. Jaharis used Vermethor as a deterrent. one of my favorite passages from fire and blood has always been this one. This is with Lord Roger

apt time to bring him up in our Barathean sequence here of the pod. He's done a lot of horrible shit. We don't have time to talk about it, but he's trying to basically avoid death, pledge his allegiance again, and he's like,

do you need hostages, right, to convince you of my loyalty? And Jaharis, takes him on a little stroll past a Vermithor who is non-un-un-sumaboard, snacks and says, why would I need hostages? I have your word that is all that I require, but Grandmaster Benefer heard the words he did not speak. Every man and maiden child in the

stormlands is my hostage whilst I ride him. Like, that's what a dragon like Vermithor can do for you. Now, I don't think Damon is thinking about Vermethore that way in this moment as a deterrent, but I think that thinking about dragons as deterrence, as warnings, as messages, as messaging. As messaging, as Jake and, as Jace and Luke are doing here, is an important part of how to think about how dragons can be deployed overall. One quick thing, I just want to clarify for folks who are listening to this.

Like, there's this theory going around that, like, demons singing to Vermethor is somehow connected what happens with Vagar. I think because a lot of people thought that Vermethor was Vagar, and I can understand that. Like, from a casual show-watching point of view, you see, like, a craggy old dragon and you're like, why should I think

it's a different craggy old dragon. Not all of us are blessed with the facial recognition of Chris Ryan. But anyway, this is not related. Damon has nothing to do with what happens with FACAR. So let's put that theory to bed with a lullaby. Speaking of putting things to bed, it's time to say goodbye to Luke and Arak, sadly, Joe. It is time to head to Storms End. before we go above shipbreaker bay,

we must head into the round hall. We get this very cool exterior establishing shot of the castle. Finally. Finally, storms and exterior shot. We've never had one. Long anticipated. And what a treat it was, complete with this unmistakable silhouette of Vagar. Now, in fire and blood, we get this line.

Even Aerex quailed before that sound, we are told. And it's like, it's just, he's just so small and scared. Luke plied his whip freely as he forced him down. So like this idea that like ARAX is scared and Luke is struggling

to like get him under control. Oh. This really, it's just heartbreaking. Absolutely breaks my heart. And so of course we understand when we see Vagar what that means

that Amund is there. And Luke understands what that means that Amon is there. And yet when he goes inside and sees Amon, it's still even more than seeing Vagar,

like you can see it wash over him, thinking back to the pink dread and the eye slice and the training yard moment. And nephews? Your favorite. Laughing at the pig at the dinner table. The three strong boys toast.

All of this really noxious history between family members who in a different life could have been friends. I mean, when you rewatch this season, you along with us will like have this, the moment where young Amant goes up to Jace at the fire at the funeral and almost has a conversation with him. Like, these are the moments that we're talking about, like, when we're like, you had to hit this. You know, you have to hit Aeman losing his eye. And you have to hit all these things because it leads to this, which kicks off the war.

Right. So you have to have all of that, that moment over the fire where Aymond almost, you know, reached out. Oh, what could have been? This is the Steph final. What could have been, Joe? Well, that's the knock each other down, pick each other up. Wouldn't you agree? I want to get you of a Sarah's wig for Halloween.

Which one? You have like 19 choices from this season. Like the penultimate one. Okay. Like, you know, not the last one where it's like seven strands. Where they had to plug every individual hair into the prosthetic. Oh, boy. So in the show, we don't get to.

to see the conversation that sends Aymand to Storms End. But in the book, it's pretty straightforward. They understand that they have to swing Storm's end to their side, just as the Black Council does, but specifically that Reneas's ties to House Barathean make this something that requires a personal touch, right, to switch that allegiance. And their approach hinges on Amon

securing a marriage pact with one of Boris's daughters. We see a woman standing next to Eamond in the sequence. We see three daughters on the other side. We're meant to be thinking about the Frey girls. Absolutely. In all of this. Yeah. Absolutely.

Regrettably, we were not treated to a similar sequence where Boros doesn't remember the final names as the late Lord Frey once did not. Alas. Or that iconic Edmontelli moment when like he like he like pulls up the veil and he's like, oh no, I got a hot one? What the hell? You are a delight to me. me, my lady.

But I like that long sequence where Otto and Allison are talking about what they need is something like that. What I love is at the end of that, it's I will not fail Prince Amon blustered. Egon will have Storm's End and I will have this girl. And I think thinking about Amon's swagger as Luke walks into this scene and how much, by the end of the episode, how much we're thinking about younger Aymond. Amid as a boy. But there's this line from Gren,

your favorite character, Gren, in a storm of sorts, right? Where he says, sometimes I think everyone is just pretending to be brave and none of us really are, maybe pretending is how you get brave. I don't know. But I think this,

this like overcompensatory swagger from Amund is a very young man who is trying to hide his own fear in this big moment that he has been sent off to. this false bravado. It's tougher for Luke to appear content because he has entered a very hostile circumstance here, presents this message to Boris Barathean who cannot read,

who needs the maister to come whispered into his ear, who is very unhappy with the message that he receives and this remind-me language that Reneera has chosen. And in general is a real jerk. Joe, can you refresh everybody quickly on the relationship between, Reneas and House Barathean. And the House Barathean moments that we've gotten in this show and why this is maybe something that Rennaro and Co.

We're counting on being able to lock down pretty easily. Yeah, I mean, we saw from the very beginning, we see Rainis with Borougham, Bormann Barathean, which is Boris's father at the tourney at the very beginning of the season. And their family connection, but he asks her favor, the queen who never was, right? They have a connection there. That being said, Borman, when we saw him bend the knee, did it grudgingly. And then we're treated again to more Borman when Reneer goes on her, you know, Bachelorette tour of Seven Kingdoms where we get. And another thing, so like in that sequence in Storm's End, which is where young Brackett and Young Blackpool fight and die. and I think that that was like an interesting,

hey, kids killing each other is going to be a thing here at Storm's End before the season's over. But we get Rainira, again, and we've been talking, like you said, we've been talking all season about Reneera making rash choices as a teen that will come back to haunt her. And she pissed off the Lannisters. The Lannisters are just assumed not going to be on the table. And the reason given is that Tylan Lannister has served the king,

you know, with Otto too long, he's not going to split. But also maybe if Reneer hadn't, like, embarrassed Jason Lannister as badly as she did and, like, shit-talked Lady Lannister at the hunt, maybe the Lannisters might be on the table. And maybe if she hadn't pissed off Borman Barathean as much as she did, maybe Bormon, like, the Baratheans would be on the table. I was a little surprised. I had been expecting that instead of making it Boros Baratheon, they'd just would have made it Bormand because, like, he's an actor.

We met a couple times. So, like, let's have a, you know, and he has reason to be pissed off at Reneura-ish. But, like, they're just like, nope, let's throw a brand new character in here. Boris Barathean, the illiterate jerk. I wondered as well if we would just stick with Borman, but I think it works to have it now. To be clear, Boris Parathian is not a child, like this other group of children. But, like, still, it's a new generation. And this question of whether something toxic and harmful has been passed down, whether

some allegiance has passed down, like, what changes generation to generation in terms of how these different factions relate to each other? You did feel that there. And, like, even the way that when Luke invokes the word queen and Boris is like, well, I'm just, I was just listening to this pitch here about a king, the house of the dragon does not seem to know who rules it. Like we think back to the prologue and the great council and that opening note for the show, the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. So so much of this stretch is about going out and trying to lock down your allies. But even within that quest,

it still boils down to the tension and the divide within. And I, the marriage thing, I was, Luke is really young. He doesn't, in the moment, think to say when Boros is like, well, I've got this betrothal offer over here. What are you going to offer me? And Luke says, I'm already, I'm promised to another. I'm sorry, I can't help here. And it's just like, all right, I'll go instead of offering up anything else.

It's like, like Jof or Aegon or Baceres, his three tiny brothers. We're not above betrothing a baby here in Westeros. Otto tried to betroth to betrothed Agon at his second name day to Renier. right? So it's like in this entire season of this focus and emphasis on marriages and marriage packs as political capital, the fact that Renera, the fact that they went out to make these pitches with this remind me language and this idea of like, let's remind them of their oaths and not with that sweetener that Otto said. we're offering up is really, really, really, really tough.

Luke? Not able to make a queen, a quick exit, however, because Aymond has something that he would like to discuss. Steve? Wait, my lord strong. Did you really think that you could just fly about the realm, trying to steal my brother's throne at no cost? I will not fight you.

I came as a messenger, not a warrior. Fight would be little challenge. No. I want you to put out your eye as payment for mine. One will serve. I would not blind you. Plan to make a gift of it to my mother. Absolutely chilling, Joe.

As is the eye patch lifting and we get the Sapphire reveal at last. Yeah, for those who don't know, Aymand Targary and like a totally normal kid has decided to replace his eye with a sapphire. The sapphire is his sigil in the opening credits. This is why truly bonkers stuff. Shrieks after Luke, give me your eye or I will take it, bastard. But stops at Boros' command because Boros is happy to insult Rennira

and Luke and their entire family and call. but doesn't really want the blood on his hands of having any sort of confrontation take place under his roof. He doesn't really care what happens once they're outside, but he doesn't want it happening. He's not here. Yeah, and this, like, again, we're meant to be thinking about the Red Wedding

and the idea of guest rights and all that sort of stuff. But also, again, to earlier, Storm's End is probably still grappling with a PR nightmare of the Bracken Blackpool fight that happened in that very room several episodes ago. I wonder if they're running low on bread and salt around Storm's End. Didn't see a healthy supply of that. Well, the air is salt.

It's true, Joe. You just need a cracker. That's salty ocean brine. So, Amin pursues. In the book, he is goaded into this pursuit by Maris, one of the daughters. This is not one of the Barathean babes. Not what happens to you're here, where at least not anything that we see.

So that's a distinction. What we see instead is Luke running in the rain to ARAX. They are both so small and so scared. And Luke is in high Valerian telling his dragon, focus, pay attention, be calm, listen, obey, fly. This killed me. Also, on the visual effects side, I want to say something that our pal Dave Gonzalez over in trial by content is pointed out all season is that in order to maintain this visual effect, right, that we haven't seen characters either mount or dismount.

We still haven't seen a dismount. Like, I don't know how Rainier got down from Cyrax on the bridge there, actually. But like, but we see him mount Aerox. And part of that is because Arix is so tiny, you know, that I can do that. But I love that we see him get on the dragon. here looking around terrified. Oh my God, it's so sad. It's really upsetting. It is very sad. A couple weeks ago, maybe even last week, you and I had texted each other and we were like, no, it's two weeks ago. We were like, we really like Jace, but we're refusing to get attached to Luke because we know

what's going to happen to him in two episodes, right? So like, Jace, I'm rooting for you, bud, but Luke, like, I can't care about you because I know what's going to happen. But all that went out the window and part of it again is like, you know, to your constant point, like, see, Being ARAX struggle, both of them just being so small and so scared. Oh, it's just, it's agonizing. And, like, the love that they have for each other, too, like, oh, it's just so painful. And it becomes very, very dismaying very quickly because we hear this growl, Vagar. ARAx roars very anxious, and we get this truly amazing aerial shot.

Iconic. Like an instantly iconic Thrones visual of Vagar flying. above Arak's massive hulking from the text Watchers on the castle walls saw distant blasts of

flame and heard a shriek cut the thunder then the two beasts were locked together lightning crackling around them Beagar was five times the size of her foe the hardened survivor of a hundred

battles if there was a fight it could not have lasted long that five times the size. I mean, it feels like 50 times the size when you're seeing that shot there. And Vagar very suddenly is in front of ARAX who is dodging. And we get this kind of like maniacal laugh from Aymand. And then Vakar's behind and goes for a bite. And I'm like, okay, this is a bad sign, Amid. Pull out of here. Your dragon's going to eat these two. What are you doing? And Luke is trying to command. He's got this quickly turn moment. And they do have this.

this little evading maneuver, Joe, into your favorite, a crevice. Yeah, you know I hate a crevice. But you love a cover? But if you're going to, if you're going to Millennian Falcon your way into a crevice, like, I'm okay with it, right? So we get a falcon maneuver. And also, Aziz from History of Westrow's podcast was saying that that first shot of Vagar, shadowy above Aerox reminded him a lot of a, like, a massive star destroyer, you know,

dwarfing. in Star Wars. So yeah, a lot of Star Wars imagery in this, in this chase here. Absolutely. And it is canon

in the text that if not for the weather, maybe they could have gotten away. And so that's on our mind here. Lighter and faster. Exactly. Exactly. Can maneuver in a way

that Vagar with that sheer heft cannot. Alas, that is not how it goes. Amon calling to Luke and Valerian, you owe me a dead. boy, ARAx shooting out of the storm with that fireball right in Vagar's face.

Luke saying, no, Aerox, no Aerox serve me. He is not in control here anymore. We will talk in a minute about this idea, this central thesis of the season about the inability to control dragons in full. And then Vagar roars hugely in Aymond has a similar realization dawning on him. him, Joe, that he is not in control. No, no, no, no, Vagar. No, serve me, Vagar.

No. She does not serve him. Luke and Arak's cut above the clouds. There's this brief glimmer of sunlight and possibility. It made me think of Viseras, watching the family dinner, smiling, thinking, oh, it's going to be okay. But Corlis taught us, Joe, that Hope is a false ally. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone watching House the Dragon. was fooled by this, right?

No. Like Trisket, Vagar crunching down on that tiny bite-sized snack tears ARAX in half. We watch the pieces of his tiny body fall to the bay below. No sign of Luke.

Have to assume that he got swallowed. And that's very tough. This is very painful and sad. Amand is horrified by what has happened. And we go back to Dragonstone and see Damon approach Reniro. We do not. hear the conversation. We understand, though, when Reneer returns, that the word of Luke's death

has reached her and we see it on her face. She is completely transformed. The dance of the dragons has begun. There are so many different things to parse here. Hit us with some emails before we break down the key takeaways. I want to hit this email from Elin. I think I pronounce that correctly. I've noticed that Reneer has a particular way of holding her hands. This is what we mentioned earlier. Sheffin holds her three middle fingers on her one hand with the other hand. First, I just found it eye-catching, but it wasn't until Damon Slomo walk up to her that I realized it looked like a she's sword that most often the men wear on their waist, reflecting the restraint that she has shown at least as a grown woman in these last episodes. And what does Damon do? While giving her the bad news, and I guess kicking this conflict into high gear, he takes her hand unsheathing the sword slash Renair herself, perhaps a coincidence, but I'll be keeping an eye on her hands next season to see if they match her action.

I love that. And in this email, she attached a couple shots of this hand gesture that I would love to hear Emma Darcy talk about. We mentioned earlier that that Damon's sword is on sheath for most of the episode, you know. And so I've thought, I mean, this incredible face from, we're going to go back, obviously, to the Battle of Shipwriters Bay. But, I mean, the incredible face that Emma gives the camera here made me think of Catlin Stark, right? So in Clash of Kings, in one of the Catlin chapters, Katlin says, I take no joy in me nor meet and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. I am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings.

There is an empty place within me where my heart once was. We get similar language from Aria throughout the series. Aria is constantly talking about the hole in her heart. I have a hole where my heart should be. She thought it nowhere else to go. I'm strong as strong as you. I'm hard. And there's this great Ariam Martel quote. Ariya Martel show watchers will not know, but what a cool book character. You should read the books. Anger was better than tears, better than grief, better than guilt. So you were talking about the way in which Reneura would have to be

processing some guilt around Luke along with everything else. But like burying guilt and anger is a way to inoculate yourself from even further hurt if you're only turning it inward and not turning it outward. So the rage that is mentioned in fire and blood again and again and again about Reneer in this sequence, this is the first time we see it on Emma Darcy's face. What are children but a weakness of folly? This is Laris Strong. You know? Like it's just, it's an incredible, incredible moment. And I think when we're talking, you know, we have to think about Joffrey taking Ned's head, Amant, doing something foolish. whether or not intentionally, like,

doing something foolish and childlike in this moment when he has this tremendous amount of power. But the way in which Ned Stark, the grief over Ned Stark, splinters out and haunts all these characters for the rest of a song of Ice and Fire. This is this moment where Luke, maybe not to step dead, Damon,

but, you know, to, like, certainly to Jace, certainly, you know, to bailin Rana, certainly to, certainly to Reneira, that this is just going to be a hole in her heart for the rest of this war. Yeah, a defining, a defining loss. It's a point of no return for us as viewers because we understand, like, the stakes have changed. We've seen a dragon kill a dragon. We've seen kin kill kin, kill kin, like the dawn of the dance is here.

But also that turning point for the characters, you mentioned Tyrion. We talked on Sunday about that, there's your piece. idea where he knocks over the cup and shatters it at Taiwan's War Council to really make clear to everyone that there is nothing that will change what has already happened. There is no way that you can walk that back. And we see that plainly on Renair's face there. The question of what was intended is absolutely irrelevant in terms of what will happen moving forward. But the question of intention is interesting for us to talk about on the podcast. And that's one of the things, You know, we want to hit the tweaking of the account from the book to the show here.

We want to hit this very key idea of control. We want to hit the way that mistakes are leading characters in certain directions in the story, Kinslang, etc. There's a lot to go through here, much of which we've talked about. But let's start, Joe, with that question of how much room there was for interpretation. in the text, because this is something there are definitely some members of the fan base were like, this was, we hate this. El-Raean meant to murder, Luke, why is this being softened?

So I'm curious a couple things. One, you know, how that change plays for you and works for you, but also like how much room you think there was to play there in the specific stretches where this is described in the text. But then more broadly, of course, that larger, that larger matter that we've been discussing all season, the unreliable narrator nature of this history book leaves so much room

to play and actually necessitates examining what account would have been passed down and why. Right. We talked about this and Talk the Thrones a plenty, but like you know, even watching it, you have to, okay, so this all happens in a dark

stormy, you know, sea-tossed environment outside of a castle, who witnessed this? Who saw this? You know, you would, like, any witnesses are watching from shore, and they're watching flashes of fire out over the bay. They can't possibly have seen what's happened here. So the person whose account of what happened here that we can best follow is going to be Aymond. And Ryan Condell indicated in the inside of the episode

you know, a discussion that Aiman might go ahead and claim that he did this. What's his alternative to say I have no control over my own dragon? Yeah. The one I keep boasting about riding? To look incompetent, you know what I mean? So I think he is going to go back

and like maybe he'll tell Allison that he didn't mean to, but honestly, I think he'll just tell everyone that he meant to. And it really, I think, beautifully underlines this unreliable narrator question. But like, is it more interesting if it's a mistake? We got a bunch of emails about this and I'll try to be brief, but our listener, Kyle, wanted to talk about, so Kyle doesn't like this, right? And Kyle says, the lack of choice characters seem to be given this season is something he doesn't like. Most recently, this comes up in the form of Luke's accidental death by wayward dragon. It just neuters the character of Amid and the story. Sure, it's all the

more tragic, but it also feels like weak storytelling. Characters are just reacting to the world around them instead of taking action on their own. It makes the whole thing feel like it's on rails, as opposed to characters making decisions that they then have to live with. Instead, they can kind of wash their hands of it. I didn't do it, or I had no choice. It lets them off too easily. On the contrary, our listener Troy writes, this change does not simply soften Aiman to make

it more likable, but instead it adds meaning in depth to who he is as a character. He has that second son energy. wifeless, dragonless, friendless, ganged up on by his brother and nephews in one scene and his nephews and cousins and another. Now that he has grown to be more powerful than any of them, but is still passed over in favor of his layabout brother, he needs to put others in their place wherever he can. He torments Luke, not simply because he's still mad about the eye or the pink dread, but because he has a deeply seated need to make others feel and acknowledge his superiority. tormenting others to feel powerful is not inherently less cruel than intentionally making a pramptive strike on an enemy dragon rider and does not make him a softer character, but it does make him so much deeper.

I loved it. I tend to be with Troy, the second emailer in this conversation where, like, you know, if I'm Renira and I hear that Amon got on a massive dragon and chased my tiny son his tiny dragon in the storm and Luke accidentally dies, I'm still like, okay, you still killed my kid, even if you didn't make the, call the shot to have Begar, you know, take a bite, you know? Yeah, that's how, that's how I feel, too. I think that like, okay,

there's a, what you said about who could really have, with authority and detail observe, the actual fight is, is a hugely important point. One thing that we can maybe say was potentially more reliably observed and passed down is I will have your eye or your life

strong as a line from the book. So I think that's something that stands out, certainly, as maybe that more intentional pursuit of death there. But I think that broadly, you cited this passage on Sunday, the tragedy that befell Luceris Valerian at Storm's End was never planned

on this all sources agree. Eamond is not setting out with this in mind. Now, whether in the moment in the text he changes his intention is something that we can debate, I really agree with what Troy said like

and I think Condal has been has been really hammering this point too like he still got on the biggest dragon in the world and chased a child and his baby dragon like his nephew into the stormy sky

and he's demanding his eye he's pursuing him in this act of horror like this isn't just a kind innocent endeavor even if he doesn't mean to kill him but ultimately, I think that that question of if the final outcome is not what Amund intended, Luke's death.

I actually think that's really interesting. And like, to me, more interesting, ultimately, than that more outright villainous act. And I think, again, that connects to this question of like how history is passed down inside of fire and blood and the way that history remembers, not only the events, but the figures, right? And we talk about kinslaying and no man or woman

is more a curse than the kinslayer, like, Amon Kinslayer. This is who this guy is now. I mean, he had a cool nickname, which is one eye. No, now it's Kinslayer, which is... I would much rather be Aymann one eye than Aeman Kinslayer.

It's a tough rebrand, folks. It reminds us, yeah, of Jamie Lannister is called the Kingslayer for the rest of his life, right? Kinslayer as well. but Aymann is the nickname Aymann gets here. And I think that it's so important for this question of dragon math that we keep talking about because it's not just the math of the dragons, which dragon is bigger, but it's the math of the writers, right?

Makes you think of like Quentin Martell, this quote about Quentin Martel, right? Oh, boy. Poor fucker. That ends with like basically not every. man was meant to dance with dragons. That's, you know, Quentin Martel is a book character, but it's just sort of like, not every man is meant to dance with dragons. Like, you can't, you know, this will come up again and again and again. But, you know, and also like who these kids are, right? We have to think of Caton Stark, Knights of Summer, or more recently, Rainis, who says as a attorney. Yes, both

a seed and hands full of steel, exactly. It's been seven years since, 70 years since King Megor's end, these knights are as green as summer grass, none have known real war. Their lord sent them to the tourney fields with fistful of steel and balls full of seed and we expect them to act with honor and grace. It's a marvel that warden break out of first blood. These are summer, nights of summer on also untrained dragon. There's never been. Nights of summer on nukes. Yeah. With personal vendettas and no supervision. Other than Damon and dear departed but not dead, Lainor, none of, none of, no living dragon. writer has ever been to war on a dragon back. There's never been a dragon versus dragon conflict on the continent. We, you know, it'll be interesting to rewatch that dragon pit training scene,

where the dragonkeepers are trying to talk to these boys about, about the power of these dragons and getting them to obey and whether or not they'll listen to you. Between rider and dragon as well. You mentioned me or we're there, and it connects to the kin-slaying legacy as well. You know, one of the quotes from Fireblood is, Magor the cruel he was called and Kinslayer as well,

though it was death to say either in his hearing. This idea that Magor was cursed connects deeply to his role as a kinslayer, usurping the throne and killing

Agon the uncrowned. Stanis too, right? Absolutely. Stanis a kinslayer. Absolutely. And like in the Magor Agan case, another Targaryen

bit of infighting and family strife there, deadly strife. This also, like, connects to this question of Allison to misinterpreting Viseris' words at the end of episode eight into episode nine. And, you know, that was a, that's been a point of, of conversation and debate, too. And, like, I think, weirdly, rather than, like, compounding a concern for me, this actually helped some of this click into place for me. because I think characters being fallible and making mistakes is dramatically compelling and human and makes them more fully realized, rounded, flawed figures in our tale.

And I think, like, it's not a one-to-one to say, Amund wanted an eye and ended up sitting on top of a dragon who ate Luke at ARAX to say like Rob fucked up when he foreswore his vows to the phrase and married to Lisa

obviously the way that plays out in the book is a touch different or to talk about how Ragar put so much stock

in the prophecy that he left Elio Martel behind and moved forward in this quest with Leanna those aren't

total one-to-one comps but I do think they fit more broadly with the story's interest in characters who are mistaken or misled. And that connects very deeply to this question of control, right? Because it's all hubris to differing degrees and in a way that manifests specifically to a given figure or circumstance or context.

But like, it is hubris for Allison to say, absolutely, I understand. with Fasarismantan, now we must do this. It's also a sad thing that connects to her, everything we talked about last week with how she thinks about power and agency, etc. It is hubris for Eamon to think that he could go on this chase and not have something terrible happen.

You brought this up right at the beginning of our chat about this on Talk to Thrones, but it is clearly now like a central mission statement for this, not just season, but probably series. what happened here to House Targaryen, that Viceris line to Renera in episode one, when he is trying to figure out if she's the heir, if she's the one who can take the burden

of this prophecy on her shoulders, right? And he says the idea that we can control the dragons is an illusion. There are power men should never have trifled with one that brought Valeria. It's doom. If we don't mind our histories, it will do the same to us.

That's what's happening right in front of us right here. We've mentioned the fire of blood quote, actually about Amin and Begar. Call it boldness, call it madness, call it madness, call it fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons. Who can know the mind of such a beast? A scary unsettling, existential dread-inducing question in general, but particularly when you apply it to the dragon's own rider. Like that idea that there is that cap and that limit was thinking of Ballerian. taking Ereya to the ruins of old Valeria and fire and blood and her coming back. Allegedly.

As Belerian's lawyer, I have to say allegedly. I love that you're just standing firm by the Black Dredd here. But Septim Barth in the text says from the very start, we have asked, where did Erella take Baleen? We should have been asking, where did Balaerian take Ereya? Like, the writer does not control the dragon. and to think that that's the way it works is folly. It's that hopes folly.

And then I think, of course, to Danny Joe, in a moment I love to revisit from season seven, standing in that dragon pit and saying to John, this place was the beginning of the end for my family. A dragon is not a slave. And I think I love all of this. You're a genius, Mallory Rubin. And I think the larger question we want to be asking ourselves about the series,

is what is it trying to say about power? Because if we look at Game of, I mean, duh, but like, if we look at Game of Thrones and the way that Game of Thrones ends with, you know, the question is, who's going to sit the Iron Throne? Who's going to sit the Iron Throne? Who's going to sit the Iron Throne? And it ends with the Iron Throne literally being melted down into a puddle

because this idea of that kind of power. By a dragon with a mind of his own, by the way. Being ultimately corrupted and corruptible and corrupting, this idea of outsized power, the Targaryans will rule for many, many generations after what happens here. But this marks a fundamental shift

in the power balance for the Targaryens. And I think it's really important to think about this moment as a meditation on power on political power, the fallibility of the humans involved in political power

through a fantasy lens is so, interesting to me. Can I read a quote from George Armourne about fantasy? Because this is something you bring up a lot that I love, where you're like, we have to remember that this is a fantasy show. So when we watch these two dragons go at it over Shipbreakers Bay, this is what I mean when I say it's a spectacle that is anchored in character. And so it's a spectacle that I care about and makes a lot of sense to me. And is the epitome of what fantasy can be because, okay, so this is a George R. Martin quote from this

faces of fantasy photograph collection book from 1996, but this is a beautiful quote about why we cling to fantasy stories. The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real, for a moment at least, that long magic moment before we awake. Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis Lazily. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and clothes, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Fantasy is the

towers of Minis Tirith, the ancient stones of Gorman Gas, the halls of Camelot. Fantasy flies on the wings of Icarus, reality on Southwest Airlines. Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true? We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think, to teach. He's strong spices, and hear the songs the sirens sing. There's something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us. To the child who dreamt that one day he would hunt the forest of the night and feast beneath the hollow hills and find a love to last forever somewhere south of Oz and north of Shangri-La. They can keep their heaven. When I die, I'd sooner go to Middle Earth.

And so this like, this moment between. Amen and Jace, Amund and Luke and these two dragons above Shipbreakers Bay. And it's this kind of high-flown, high-stakes story that helps us understand the human heart, the struggle within the human heart,

and the halls of power that we are constantly reflecting on as we navigate our own world. And that's, it's why we're here. It's why we're here, Mallory. and I talking about story. That was beautiful, and I can think of no more fitting end point for our conversation about this finale. Oh, my God, I'm in tears. Joe.

Wow. We're going to cry on Thursday. Oh, God. Now I'm getting really sad. All right, well, we can goof around with some awards for five minutes to cheer up at the end here. And then we can cry again on Thursday. God's is being good. Should we do some episode awards before we go?

Should we make the eight? Let's make the eight one last time. Okay. Season awards coming Thursday. This is our last make the eight for this episode. Joe. Wigwatch. Finalee wigwatch, best, worst.

What do you got? I love Reneer's birth wig, which I'm pretty sure is the same birth wig we got in the earlier episode. I love how damp and curly it is and stuff like that. So I love a damp wig. So I'm going to give it to Reneer's birth wig worst. Speaking of damp, Amon's rain wig. I thought you and Mitchell did a great job in the final moments of the episode,

giving us a like, I fucked up, like moment on the back of the dragon. But the wig was not up to the occasion is what I have to say. How about you? I'm going with Reneira's hair under the crown. Just amazing to finally see that. And my worst is Boris. Sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Not great. He had like sort of like this, like a 70s. wing sort of action going on. Foot watch. Best worst. Best is Luke's princely fit that he wears his Stormsend. Yeah. Very good. I thought he looked

lovely. Poor guy. Worst I'm going to give it to Corleys' nightgown, which is maybe not fair, but listen, we just saw the Saracen like golden ruffles as he was turning to goo in his bed. I think the, you know, the Lord of Driftmark could show up a little flashier in his convalescence. What do you think? Amazing.

Okay, my best is Aymann Sapphire. I know it's not a fit, but it still counts. I'll give it to you. Wonderful. So weird. My worst is auto high towers parlay coat. I'm just like, frankly, how dare you? What is this a pleasure yacht?

This is the brink of war. Dress accordingly. What is this a fucking pleasure yacht? How dare. How outrageous. How dare. And bigger. And bigger?

Best bit of it. of Dragondom. How is it not the shot of Vagar over Iraq's? It is. It has to be. It has to be. Doctrine of exceptionally weird sex stuff. What if I don't have anything for this?

Not really a sexy episode. I'll just go with, I guess, in the... Luke not having a marriage pack to offer. Let's like A, B, test some... Sure. Some pitches here for the Baratheids. But yeah, not a... Not a doctorate.

of exceptionally weird sex stuff episode, really. How about if this show had Netflix subtitles show? Luceris Targaryen, air to drift mark, crunches tenderly. Tenderly. Mm. I like that. I like that. I also used crunches.

I went with crunches as well. Dragon crunches, strong DNA roars agitatedly. That's again one last. strong knock in there. Very strong voice. Oh, God. Best quote. Withered cock.

She can have her answer now, stuffed in her father's mouth along with his withered cock. Yeah, that's my pick too. Most reliable narrator tracker. Everyone loses this week because nobody could see what happened over the Battle of Shipbreakers Bay. So, yeah. Equally challenging, I think, is who won this episode? I ask your favor.

I mean, losses for a lot of characters here. Character-wise, I'm going to say Damon Targaryen wins because now his wife seems to be on board murder warpath, right? So Damon's like, cool, I got my dragon wife back, right? This is what I wanted. Plus, he sang a song to a dragon. Must have loved that. Performer, though, Emma, Darcy. Yes. Performer Emma, for sure.

A character I had a really hard time with. I'm going to go with Jace. didn't get sent to Storm's End. Big win. Big win. Got invited to the Kingsguard loyalty test. Didn't have to go to Storm's End. I count that as a win inside of this episode.

Deaths end off. Steve, give us some Dracarus screeches for baby Vesne. Dracares. Give us some Draccharis screeches. For Lassaris. Valerian, Prince of the realm, and his dragon, Aerox. Steve, can you also give this while we hear some Jekaris screeches for the dream of peace in the realm? The Raqares.

I think that's a wrap on that hope. Yep. Faceless man watch. Steve, I'm going to miss that. Lord Keltagard. Ooh. Yeah. very active very very invested in what's going on here lord keltzgar i'm going with eric with

an e oh what is what is required to seal the crown escape sneak in to dragonstone without detection until the final moment that's some that's some bravosy training at work i think a twin would study to be a faceless man just to look different aric was on the bridge too just in case you were wondering what aric is up to he was on auto side of the brother versus brother. There's a whole sequence about their tender farewell in the book that we didn't get. But, you know, that's fine. Cargall twins. All right. Eric and Eric. What an episode. We don't have to say goodbye yet, though. I know. We will be back. If you're looking for our usual Dance of Dragon Dreams book, look ahead. You're going to get that on Thursday when we look ahead to season two. And we do some season awards. And who knows what else? We're not ready to stop talking about hot D. So, yeah, we had a lot of people ask if they should.

should read the book. We'll talk about that on Thursday. Do it. But yes. But we'll talk about the nuances of it. Join us. Dear it. Do it.

Unlimited power. Not. But we'll have the non-book, you know, the season awards, non-book, spoiler talk. We'll also like, you know, keep the emails coming.

We have emails we didn't address. We'll address it in that episode as well. So there'll be stuff for non-book readers in Thursday as well. In abundance. Maybe a special guest, possibly who's to say. So we'll be back for that. Cannot wait.

Until then, we grieve this loss with you because that is a wrap on today's genelie deep dive. Thank you to our dragon lord, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Our Jenram Gapal, for his additional work on the production for this episode. And Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode.

Remember to send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We will see you on Thursday for our next tot D-chat. and then again on Friday for our Andor episode 8 deep dive, the Midnight Boys, Poo-P-P-P-P-Poo! We'll be with you tomorrow to talk about Andor. Until then, come with us. We'll show you the true meaning of loyalty.

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